aa

It has been a long time since there was a tax rate of 50% or more.
But now you have joined the 47%?  So you won’t vote for Romney?

Last comment.  Again, you make rash assumptions Mr. Hughs.  Up until my husband lost his job two years ago, we were in the top income earning bracket.  When the company he worked for, for over a decade was sold, half the money from his stocks in the company went to the govm’t.

“10 bucks says that you and your wife don’t hold hands anymore.  20 bucks says your kids and grand kids don’t want to hang out with you.  The sheer darkness of your underground lair is oppressive. I really do hope you don’t gasp your last breath there.”
Hilarious.  Perhaps they are completely unaware of my “underground lair”.  Perhaps they hear me tell stories about the terrible “fixes” that some taxpayers have gotten themselves into and my attempts to rectify the situation and they think I lead a normal life of volunteering a very large number of hours per year.  Perhaps they hear me tell about taxpayers who come in and recognize me from last year and thank me for coming back for yet another year.
“You should be thankful that my eight kids will be contributing to your social security check.”
They better hurry.  I’m sure to gasp my last breath soon.  :-)  Until then you are part of the 47% that pays no income taxes and receives a large “refund” (subsidy) to help you raise your children.  You certainly won’t vote for a crazy Mormon, will you?  How ‘bout a “flat tax” so that you get no more “subsidies” and the rich pay only 10% instead of 14% (since he paid more that he should have).
“The harsh reality is that your generation mortgaged their future.”
Not “my” generation.  And a “generation” does not “mortgage the future”.  It’s politicians who do that.  So, who elected those politicians that promised “full employment” and “no new taxes”?  Who took out “liar’s loans” on homes that were “bound to appreciate in value”?  Who took on more and more credit card debt?  Who took on large student loans under the impression that they were bound to find a good paying job?  A society is a large collection of people and it’s hard to blame any particular part of that collection for all of the problems.
“The baby boomers who had an expensive party,”
Wrong generation.  But irrelevant.  Water under the bridge.  Now what?
“while the rest of us are left to sort out the mess of their inverted population pyramid.”
Well, it’s a lot worse that that.  1) Use of irreplaceable fossil fuels.  2) Problems with access to clean water.  3) Global warming.  4) Potential pandemics.  Bottom line - more people would make the problems worse, not better.  Seven billion is far, far too many.  Most of those are poor and hungry.
“He is like a dark, black hole emitting nothing but emptiness”
Hilarious.  I guess that’s what my description of “reality” looks like to you.  My point is that religion is a lot more of the problem than the solution.  And more people would contribute to the problems, not help with them.  So the Catholic positions in particular are a problem, not a solution.
“they defend their empty post-modern nihilist philosophy as they can.”
Hilarious nonsense.  I can be “good without god” is not a nihilist philosophy.
“Clarity is always a breath of fresh air.”
Hilarious.  Can you be more specific?  How was there “clarity”?  Clarity in his incorrect judgements of me?  How silly.

Quo Vadis, thank you.  I still have hope for the old troll, but I’ll stop giving him food so he won’t regurgitate it on my computer.  BTW, I always like your comments too.  Clarity is always a breath of fresh air.

anna lisa - I love your last comment to JD!  Yes, our current troubles can be traced, in part, to rapid population shifts, the increase in elders and a relative decrease in working age folks.  Europe shows this trend in spades, but we’re right behind them in demographics and loss of faith foundation.  In my family, there has been a rapidly advancing reverse pyramid - smaller families are having fewer children, later in life.  It’s very sad, and economically depressing as well.  I love children and babies, and miss the ones who have been aborted/contracepted away. 
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Ignore JD - He is like a dark, black hole emitting nothing but emptiness, despite the secular service he purports to volunteer for.  Even trolls need to get out once in a while, and they defend their empty post-modern nihilist philosophy as they can.  You and I have chosen the better part.

JD, wow thanks so much, cause I thought Sarah Palin invented the idea of euthanasia!
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10 bucks says that you and your wife don’t hold hands anymore.  20 bucks says your kids and grand kids don’t want to hang out with you.  The sheer darkness of your underground lair is oppressive. I really do hope you don’t gasp your last breath there.
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This should chap your hide: My family is Hispanic.  Lol.  Yes, we are part of that brown tide. ;) You should be thankful that my eight kids will be contributing to your social security check.  The harsh reality is that your generation mortgaged their future.  You can’t pay it back.  There used to be over ten taxpayers for every retiree.  Now, what is it?  Three? Four taxpayers?  The baby boomers who had an expensive party, didn’t replace themselves and expect to golf their way into their golden years, but are now bellyaching for their benefits while the rest of us are left to sort out the mess of their inverted population pyramid.  Do you think their outsourced kids aren’t going to outsource their parents?
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So JD Hughes needs a heart transplant?...Rough.  Next in line please!

I am well aware of the difference between ad hominem and an ordinary insult, both of which you’re very skilled at.  Please don’t presume to know what I think.  Yesterday I actually started thinking a good opinion about you.  Ruin it if you want.  I’m done.

“I do know what ad hominem means”
No, you don’t.  I think you think that an “insult” is an “ad hominem”.
You have not attempted to give a single example of an “ad hominem”.
“We do as God asks because we wish to spend eternity glorifying Him.”
This is irrational in more than just one way.
“Secular men and women don’t have children because they define their life through science.”
Just plain stupid.
“They follow pure secular reason, but unfortunately they only see a small portion of the real, whole truth.”
You have no evidence for that opinion.
“They do what is easiest, thinking of themselves only.”
Simply a lie.
“follow his Word”
Who gets to decide how to “follow his word”?  The Pope?  The Qur’an?
“I believe they are blessed, because they are home with God!”
You have no evidence for that opinion and it seems stupid to me.
“I mourn for the child’s faithless parents”
Most likely it’s an unmarried woman.  Why do you judge someone as “faithless”?  Because she doesn’t have “faith” (belief without evidence) that her child will grow up outside of poverty?
“concentrate on producing fine large families”
Do you assume that the husband can provide for them or will the state provide enough subsidies via EITC and CTC and Food Stamps to help provide for them.
“The Amish live such a life.”
Until they are convicted for cutting off the hair of a fellow Amish for failing to be pure enough.  There can be no limit to fanaticism.
“Let’s do the same.”
Well, your exhortation is falling on deaf ears.  The population of the US is increasing only because immigration from Mexico has produced a large number of Spanish-speaking children.  They are mostly doomed to near poverty.

Sorry, but I don’t want to suffer! I don’t want cancer. I don’t want a limb removed, or a mental illness. I don’t seek suffering. Christ asks us to pick up our cross and follow him, but I don’t do so with eagerness. I follow with fear and hesitation because I am physically, and spiritually weak. We do as God asks because we wish to spend eternity glorifying Him.

Secular men and women don’t have children because they define their life through science. They follow pure secular reason, but unfortunately they only see a small portion of the real, whole truth. Other secular people just live passion to passion, day by day. They do what is easiest, thinking of themselves only.

Christians who fully love the Lord, trust him completely and follow his Word, despite the consequences.

Heartless as it may seem I don’t mourn for the aborted baby. I believe they are blessed, because they are home with God! I mourn for the child’s faithless parents, who have no idea what they have done. Ladies of the church, concentrate on producing fine large families. Let the secular population decline through selfishness. Help our Christian population grow, our nation will be blessed by God. The Amish live such a life. They are completely devoted to God and having large families. Their population is booming! Let’s do the same.

JD Hughes:  yes, I do know what ad hominem means, and you are a master at it.  That being said, I totally agree that atheists can be good (I have many friends and family members who are atheists and are perfectly good people), and I think it’s awesome that you volunteer to help people by doing their tax returns.  Given your behavior on these boards, I didn’t picture you spending your retirement productively.  I’m glad that I was wrong, and I apologize for misjudging you.

“All you have is ad hominem”
Apparently you don’t know what “ad hominem” really means.
“if the death panels deemed YOUR life to be unsuitable for special intervention.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_panel
“The term was first used in August 2009 by former Republican Governor of Alaska, Sarah Palin”
Hilarious.
“when she charged that the proposed legislation would create a “death panel” of bureaucrats who would decide whether Americans—such as her elderly parents or child with Down syndrome—were worthy of medical care.”
Typical stupidity for Palin.
“Palin’s claim, however, was debunked, and it has been referred to as the “death panel” myth; nothing in any proposed legislation would have allowed individuals to be judged to see if they were “worthy” of health care.”
So, you are referring to nonsense from three years ago.
“She needed to know that people were good.”
What can I say?  I help more than 1000 people by doing their tax returns every spring for free as a volunteer.  They think I am “good”.  So what?  Atheists can be “good without god”.
http://harvardhumanist.org/good-without-god/

Wow Annalisa, that’s amazing.  I’m sure the world is a better place with Carolina in it.

@JD, Wow, you cued me for this one.  I generally don’t like to talk about works of charity.  It’s kind of like beating your own drum.  Last week my husband and I were visited by our goddaughter.  She wanted to see us before she left for college.  She is the daughter of immigrants who came from Michoacan in Mexico.  They came via a coyote with just the clothes on their backs.  When I met Patricia on the sidewalk in front of Planned Parenthood she was utterly distraught.  I gave her a rosary and told her I would help her.  I told her about Dr. Green, a Christian OB who would help take care of her.  I told her she didn’t need to kill her baby.  She literally clutched my arm like a lifeline.  Carolina was her beautiful, healthy daughter, born some months later. Carolina is now a math major and just left for a top University.  Her brother graduated from a top university as an English major.  He’s a special ed teacher for autistic kids.  Their other sister graduated from the most difficult University to get into, in California.
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You know what JD?  something tells me that Carolina would step up, and fight for YOUR life, if the death panels deemed YOUR life to be unsuitable for special intervention.  She, and her family are hard workers.  Their lives have value.  They pay into the system, and are part of what makes this country great.  God would have forgiven Patricia if she had gone through with the abortion, but the world would have never known the blessing of Carolina’s beautiful, bright life.  Patricia needed more than a house to clean.  She needed to know that people were good.  She needed a small hand extended to her, so that she could raise the beautiful family she had, with HOPE.  This was the secret of her success.

You don’t have opinions.  All you have is ad hominem (and hypocrisy).

“You’re a father? “How scary!””
Hilarious.
“See, you’re not the only one who knows how to use the word “how””
How stupid of you.
“If this is what retirement looks like, I’m going to work till I’m dead.”
Most people today cannot afford to retire.  Would Romney reduce funding for Food Stamps, Social Security, and Medicare?
“I would never want to be that pathetic.”
Hilarious.  It would seem that you counter my opinions with a mere ad hominem.
“he also doesn’t have the excuse of being an immature college student to justify his lack of a life that makes it entertaining and worth his time to spread hatred on Catholic message boards.”
Your opinion about my “lack of a life” is ignorant and stupid.

You’re a father? “How scary!”  (See, you’re not the only one who knows how to use the word “how”)

If this is what retirement looks like, I’m going to work till I’m dead.  I would never want to be that pathetic.

“You are the dictionary definition of a nihilist”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism
“Nihilism is the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more putatively meaningful aspects of life.”
I like that word “putatively”.  :-)
Can you be more specific about exactly which ones of the “putatively meaningful aspects of life” that I reject?  Religion?  Why do you think it is meaningful?  I think it’s a silly waste of time.  Why does your god need to be “worshiped”?  Prayer is useless.  But you do belong to a nice social club of like-minded people?
“you believe in nothing”
Why do you think you are qualified to comment on the things that I believe in?  You know nothing about me.
“which is why you see children as ‘costs’”
Do you think that raising a child is without any costs?
“I am truly saddened by your spiritual state”
Like most atheists, I have no “spiritual state”.  You are truly saddened by the actual existence of atheists?  Hilarious.
“but with no joy whatsoever in your being.”
I get a lot of “joy” by pointing out that your opinions are irrational.  Not to mention Blue Bell ice cream.  :-)
“At least the dog sees humans as gods…”
You are comparing yourself to a dog?  You are human and you imagine gods?
“You really. do. matter.”
Of course I matter.  I have a wife, children, grandchildren and I have done 4000 hours of volunteer work since I retired 6 years ago.  I will donate at least $40,000 to the charities of my choice this year.  It gets me down to Mitt Romney’s tax bracket.  :-)
“He hopes to get a full ride scholarship like his sister”
Good for them.  I doubt that the Hispanic children of the single mothers that I do income taxes for are likely to go to college.  Over 50% of the school children in Austin are Hispanic.  Most are doomed to near poverty.
“there’s a whole world of “glass half full” that you haven’t even considered”
Obviously you are incorrect.
“God is in the “full” half :).”
You have no evidence for your opinion.
“I just can’t keep up with these trolls!”
Why bother?
“How do they manage to spread themselves so thin?”
I am retired of course.  My children are grown of course.

Oh dear, I didn’t realize that JD’s posts were on two different threads, so on another thread I commented on the bigoted comment against poor women, when it turns out that comment was actually on this thread.  I just can’t keep up with these trolls!  How do they manage to spread themselves so thin?

correction,“who just left for college”...sorry, my hubby is rushing me to the beach and just packed the whole picnic basket by himself. I’m always writing these things from the hip (and hopefully not neglecting my duty)...

Oh, and he volunteers with the developmentally disabled every lunchtime.  He started, by visiting his cousin with Downs, and ended up really bonding with the other kids.  He has clocked hundreds of hours there—not so it looks good on his college aps—but because he enjoys them. JD, there’s a whole world of “glass half full” that you haven’t even considered…God is in the “full” half :).

JD, bro., I’m praying for you.  You really. do. matter.  If I call you out, it doesn’t mean I’m kicking you to the curb.  BTW, my 16 y.o. (4th born)is aiming to go to a top-notch school.  He has straight A’s in honors/AP.  He is a member of “Model U.N.” and would like to be a diplomat.  He hopes to get a full ride scholarship like his sister, who just left for college did…:)

JD You are the dictionary definition of a nihilist - you believe in nothing, which is why you see children as ‘costs’.  I am truly saddened by your spiritual state - it sounds like hell on earth, but then again, you don’t believe in hell.  Sounds like the family dog, but with no joy whatsoever in your being.  At least the dog sees humans as gods…

“In my experience a fair amount of atheists have a special hatred for God.”
How silly.  There are no “gods”.  I don’t hate Zeus or Thor or Osiris or Odin or Vishnu or any other “god”.
“Their bile toward a *suffering* Christ crucified”
There is no contemporaneous evidence that there was a Christ or that he was crucified.  There was no Adam or Eve.  There was no “original sin”.  There is no need for “redemption”.  The concept of “sin” is irrational.  Your book of mythology was put together by multiple committees many generations after the actual “facts”.
“takes on a particularly diabolic flavor.”
How silly.  The word “diabolic” is meaningless.
“he really needs prayers”
How silly.  Prayers are worthless.  Now if you had “evidence” or “arguments” ...
“he reminds us of how much pain and depravity is out there.”
Yes.  Starving children and mothers are all too common in this vale of tears.  Mothers selling their daughters into “marriage” because they cannot support them.  And priests and scout leaders ...  But the incidence of rape is way down over the last few hundred years.  Not to mention the incidence of infanticide.
“whoever he or she is”
I assure you that I am not “Gloria”.
“to spread hatred”
Hmm.  How can I defend myself against the charge of “spreading hatred”?  I see myself as “spreading rationality”.  But you seem to take that as a personal affront.
“to see if we will be having a fourth child in as many years.”
Let’s see.  Four college students times $150,000 per student equals wow.  So many students are defaulting on their student loans.  You can’t get out of a student loan by declaring bankruptcy.  Have you really weighed the costs and benefits?  Get back to me in another 15 years with your answer to that question.

Blessings to you Kim!

This is exactly what I needed to read at this exact moment…As I nurse my baby and wait for the test results to see if we will be having a fourth child in as many years…

Thank you for helping me to change my heart.

Very true Anna Lisa.  JD Hughes is also a troll, and while he doesn’t post vulgarities, he also doesn’t have the excuse of being an immature college student to justify his lack of a life that makes it entertaining and worth his time to spread hatred on Catholic message boards.

“Gloria” is our resident troll.  He has admitted to being one after calling Mother Teresa obscene names, wishing people to die by fire, and asking priest’s mothers if their sons like sex.  He was giddy when he described his favorite sex positions to them.  Yes, he is an angry, pro abortion, pro promiscuity atheist.  In my experience a fair amount of atheists have a special hatred for God.  Their bile toward a *suffering* Christ crucified takes on a particularly diabolic flavor. hmmmmmm, might these things qualify for that *particularly vile category* which provokes comments to be deleted? When he comments at NCR I’m actually glad now, because he really needs prayers, and he reminds us of how much pain and depravity is out there.  Even if he won’t accept any good will or grace, another wounded soul will. Prayers for people like “Gloria”, whoever he or she is—are never in vain.

(tears in my eyes) Oh Thank you Mr. Hughs.  Does this mean Jesus DIDN’T ride dinosaurs with his shotgun?  Good thing you arrived on the scene to finish Gloria’s brilliant work.  How humanitarian of you to help us think straight.  We need less Mother Teresas and MORE of JD Hughs and Gloria!

“I grieve for the families who have chosen to limit their family size based solely on worries about suffering.”
I think JF has done a really good job of identifying a problem that does not exist.
“But one must use moral means to do so”
And only Catholics get to define what is and what is not “moral”?  Maybe some comment like that caused Gloria’s comments to be deleted.
“atheists ... are so angry at God that He allows pain in this world”
How silly.  “Pain” has been in this world for 3.5 billion years.  And, of course, no atheist thinks that a “god” “allows” it.
“Even a third of the angels fell, but the reward for the others was the beatific vision…”
Hilarious.  Oops.  That should get my comment deleted if JF is still watching.

BOLD OFF.

Two things here. What POSSIBLE business is it of anyone else how many children you have? What a nation of judgemental busybodies we have become, even as we admonish others to not judge. It seems what was aberrant is the “new normal” and to deviate from the herd is the Greatest Sin. The second is the very sad and pathetic notion that “we” know better than God how the world should work. This is the slippery slope of central planning and collectivism, the idea that “we” can create heaven on earth, ending “suffering”, smoothing all sharp cortners and hating “haters”.

@anna lisa and robyn:  thank you both for your unique comments and perspectives.  _ Robyn - I hope you do not think that I was suggesting that you and your sibling shouldn’t be here.  You and your mother are brave women.

Robyn, how beautiful.
Kellyann, God Bless you and your family…“the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these..”

Robyn, you are blessed!  What a smart mother God gave you!

I am in a wheelchair, was born with a disease that makes my muscles deteriorate. When I was little, people were always coming up to my mom saying “I’m sorry” but my mom always said “don’t be she’s very loved” she was only 23 when I was born. My moms awesome! And she had other kids too, which I’m glad because my life would have been so empty without my siblings. I know people with my disease who their parents stopped having kids because of them. They always said how lucky I was. Not lucky but blessed.

Kellyann:  there are no words to express how sorry I am for all your daughter (and you) have gone through.  I’m sure that you’re a huge blessing to her as you were to your special ed students.

Claire, I think she, along with a few other atheists that I’ve encountered in these com boxes are so angry at God that He allows pain in this world that they are acting out in hostility toward Him, through us.  They don’t want to hear about “gold in the fire”. They are wounded.  We are all wounded, but for them the disease is preferable to the cure.  There are many like this.  Even a third of the angels fell, but the reward for the others was the beatific vision…

@Kay…I was also trying to differentiate between a condition that may be very challenging for an entire family/individual and the diagnosis of inevitable death, accompanied by unknown degrees of physical pain.  There are many by-the-Book Catholics who talk a “good game”. (I’m not suggesting that is you).  I just think that WE ALL often forget that without walking a mile in another’s shoes…we just can’t understand.  One post mentioned being “closed” to life because it felt safe.  It does feel safe, but it also feels like maybe you just can’t do it again.  (Completely off-topic, sorry Kay) During my daughter’s surgery to remove what they could of the brain tumor, all I could pray was, “God, if her life is only meant to be one of suffering, please take her now, she is only a child.”  God didn’t take her, and she has suffered more than any adult I know.  I just wanted to express that there is a difference between birth defects (which can be extremely challenging) and watching someone to small to understand - live a life of agony.

@Kay…I think what some people are overlooking is not a child deprived of a sibling because of a birth defect or Downs Syndrome.  While lifetime conditions place strain and require tremendous faith to face, I was speaking of couples who felt “safe” because their “normal” children were “healthy”.  I am a certified special education teacher and have worked with families who have children with Downs Syndrome (just as an example).  Many would be angered if I referred to their child as a “burden”.  These children, as all children, bring joy - I was speaking about remembering that the “unknown” is always around the corner.  Watching a child suffer great physical pain is a different suffering than watching a child with special needs struggle arduously to learn to walk, or talk.

@Kathleen, I understand your point about the article, however, I feel that what was overlooked was the uncertainty of all life.  One of my points was that as life is always uncertain (the school bus filled with healthy children could crash tomorrow)and that people who select a small family using “we have a boy and a girl who are healthy, let’s not tempt fate” is very misguided - they may find themselves woefully unprepared for sad circumstances.  I also made a different comment to Joan (completely off article-topic) that if a predator does a “good deed”, we shouldn’t all clap and congratulate them. (Sarcasm not meant for you, Kathleen)

Oh, yes they did get deleted!  I didn’t realize that.  I’m actually a little worried about Gloria.  She sounds really angry, and I’m hoping it’s just an act, but I am genuinely worried that she is letting this thread upset her so much.

I didn’t see the comments(s)by “Gloria” that must have been deleted,(I can only imagine…)  I just want to simply say that when I lost my son a little over a year ago, I experienced a very unique grace.  It’s not like God took the pain away, but He was *with* me in my suffering.  I’ve tried to convey it in these com boxes adequately, but it’s inadequate!  I remember thinking   “You are with me…you are bolstering me up…I am enfolded…you Fulfill your promises”.
When my children’s orthodontist *and* her assistant broke down and started crying over my baby’s death, I found myself comforting *them*, and realizing that the *onlooker* is not given the grace to carry the particular cross that *I*, in this particular instance must shoulder…

Kathleen,
You just proved Jennifer’s point.  “Any mother would wish to suffer instead of her child.”  Deep down most women want and love all their children - healthy or not.
To limit the number by an artificial means or by abortion out of fear or for any selfish reason harms the entire family.  Think about what could happen… To limit the number of children because one was born with a genetic difficulty, deprives the other children of siblings.  It can put fear into the other siblings.  Will this happen to me and my children?  It can create family dynamics where the older children blame that child for the fact that they didn’t have other siblings and they may have to take care of him…by themselves.  Rather…if more children follow, the other siblings see that their parents are open to life.  They witness that it was not enough to stop their parents from giving them more siblings. It bestows a greater dignity rather than blame on the child with birth defects.  I know personally two families that took this outlook and added healthy children into their family. They put their fears into God’s hands and trusted.  I am sure someone will rebuttal with a negative comment, but that doesn’t mean this scenario doesn’t happen.  Please comment with an open mind and heart.

kellyann,
I’m so very sorry for any suffering & illness your family is going through, but the article was directed primarily at an adult secular culture.Not little children.
Any mother would wish to suffer instead of her child.

“Jennifer’s (and Mother Teresa’s)assertion that suffering should be embraced is perverse and unnatural. “

Actually it is very natural and human.  We will all face suffering in one degree or form, either directly or through a loved one.  How one responds is the question at hand. What would be perverse is to ignore or avoid those who suffer.

To embrace suffering is perfectly natural, though we need not to mean idealizing the suffering condition or viewing the situation through rose-tinted glasses.  How to embrace it is available to us in many forms.  One can visit a hospice or nursing home to see how individuals and families do embrace—quite naturally—suffering everyday.  Another example could be seen by volunteering at a special olympics event.

It is hard and something we natural do not want to experience, but it is part of the human condition.  Yes, modernity tells us suffering must be avoided at all cost, yet it is unnatural to expect this to be so.  Perversely, we can bury our heads and shield our eyes from this reality, but that will not change the human condition and suffering.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jennifer-fulwiler/why-secular-culture-is-afraid-of-life#ixzz26hlQZ200

A few points: 1. There is no promise that baby # 1 or 2 (born healthy) to a healthy, Catholic married mom in her 20’s will not be diagnosed with a life threatening/ending condition by the time said child is two.  #2.  For the people who think people stop because mom and dad want Disney trips, luxury cars, private schools and designer socks - well some people just want to buy their kids shoes at Walmart and go to lunch at McDonald’s once in a while (even in Pennsylvania).
@dboncan…“My impression is that secularists are not afraid of suffering per se. I must say that even I am afraid of suffering and our Lord agonized with it before his passion. My impression is that secularists are afraid of how suffering might affect their comfort, resources and lifestyle. That is where we as Christians must part ways with secularists, in how we must detach ourselves from that comfort zone and see suffering, not within the context of the material but in the context of the spiritual”.......Your post is OFFENSIVE.  Secular or Catholic - did you stop to consider the suffering of the children?  Everyone writes about the suffering of the caregiver and the family and the neighbors and oh, they stay up all night, and feel so bad, maybe OUR lives won’t be so comfortable now.  Obviously you have never watched a child suffer a grave illness….I (as a mother) can go without sleep, give up my career and time with my other child (after all, the “Village” can raise him while “Dad” goes off to his good job).....but what I can’t do (Secular or Catholic) - I can’t receive the chemo for my child.  I can’t say, no, wait, take MY blood - don’t stick her a fifth time.  When you figure out how to explain to the under 10 crowd that they have to focus on their spiritual suffering, write back…..I could use the info.

“Why don’t you think about what is making me angry…”

Ultimately your own thoughts are making you angry, take responsibility for that and don’t blame those who write something they may challenge and is critical your world view.  It will be a step in maturity and allow you to move beyond name-calling.

“Have you ever heard of the ethical decision of having to fight drowning people so that they won’t overfill the lifeboat and cause it to capsize? It’s a matter of saving some people or killing all of them.”

What lifeboat are we talking about?  Planet earth has the resources of feed 12 billion so we are far far from that being an issue, though outright waste, war, and oppression do result regions where people suffer. 
If people truly believe earth, the lifeboat, is near overfilling and will capsize, they should live so by doing away with much of their possessions and rapidly downsizing their consumption. TVs, computers, autos, large homes, etc. are unnecessary for life.

“We certainly would not wish to prevent pregnancies by using contraception in the poorest parts of Africa, would we?”

This highlights the exploitation of western materialism in the southern hemisphere.  In the US, it is estimated that up to 50% of the food ‘consumed’ here ends up in the trash.  Americans spend tens of billions on attending sporting events, on cable TV, vacations, pet care, etc., yet we wish poor people of color would stop having children.

This clearly is not a Christ-centered perspective and a distortion we need to address.

Today’s newspapers:  Your daughters might be a burden if you lived in Niger:
http://www.fresnobee.com/2012/09/16/2994338/in-niger-child-marriage-on-rise.html
We certainly would not wish to prevent pregnancies by using contraception in the poorest parts of Africa, would we?  Having 5 starving children is sooo much better than only 3.  And we can support our daughters for 12 years and sell them for $200.

Gloria, what IS your problem?

The Catholic Church is OK with family planning—with NFP. Which is an effective method of preventing pregnancy.

I assume nothing about Jennifer only having five children because she is Catholic. She has stated this on her blog. She has a medical condition that was diagnosed during her second pregnancy. They recommended sterilization, but she refused because of her Catholic faith.

She now has three more children.

Do your research, Gloria, because those are the facts.

Believe it or not, my goal was not to get a rise out of you.  I knew you were an angry person, but I never would have dreamed that a benign comment could get you so worked up.  I hope your weekend gets better.  Maybe you should try going out and socializing instead of spending your Saturday night getting upset about an NCR discussion.  When I was in college, I used to love going out on Saturday nights.  But then again, maybe that’s just because I’m shallow like Anna Lisa.

Wow, someone has an anger management problem.

The second comment was not from me, it was from someone named Waywardson.  And it was posted at 6:50 pm;  yours was posted at 7:25 pm, so I don’t see how you could have been typing when it was posted.  You are the joke.

Yup, it was a mistake to respond.  My bad;  I should have learned my lesson by now.

Gloria,

First, Catholics DO believe that family planning is part of responsible parenthood. (See Humanae Vitae 10, CCC 2367-68) But one must use moral means to do so—means that work with our bodies and respect our sexuality. (See Humanae Vitae 16, CCC 2370) Modern methods of natural family planning are highly effective at preventing pregnancy, IF properly understood and properly used.

A recent study in China showed that the Billings Ovulation Method (BOM) of NFP is more effective at preventing pregnancy than the Copper IUD. The BOM is an approved method of birth control in the People’s Republic of China—you know, with the infamous One Child Policy. If it’s good enough for China, it’s effective.

Oh, and Mother Teresa was an early promoter of the BOM and REQUIRED her nuns to learn it so they could teach it to the poor women of Calcutta, which they did with high success. She understood that the women needed this.

So the “Catholics want people to have more children than they can handle” is garbage.

As for Jennifer, if you read her blog, you will know she definitely does “know that there are situations in life where having more children would be bad news”. She has a health condition where her doctors recommended sterilization after her second. She had a couple unplanned pregnancies due to problems using NFP. (Not all methods are created equal and everything has a failure rate.) But she has five and is glad she has five and she wouldn’t have her five if she wasn’t Catholic.

Gloria, you’re killing me.  When you get sincere like this, I feel guilty for not responding, yet I have a sinking feeling that I’ll end up regretting the fact that I responded.  Well, here it goes.  Statistics show that the rate of abortion (when prenatal testing reveals Downs’ Syndrome or another genetic defect) is pretty high.  I don’t have the exact numbers, nor do I wish to take the time to find them.  But they’re high.  Whether the rate is different in the general population vs Catholics, I have no idea.  It would be hard to pinpoint that anyway, because there are plenty of people who identify as Catholic yet don’t maintain the Catholic position on abortion (or many other things).  It would stand to reason that people who believe in the sanctity of life would be less likely to abort, but again, it’s hard to quantify that.  I have never claimed, nor do I believe, that someone has to be Catholic to love their family.  Very few of my extended family members are Catholic (some are atheists, some are believers to a certain extent, all are very secular), yet they love their families.  I do see love as both a feeling and a verb, and I think that people who have a stronger sense of commitment and morality are usually going to do a better job loving their families in the verb sense of the world.  But again, I don’t think that Catholics are the only people who have a strong sense of morality or commitment.

Gloria—dying to oneself seems unnatural but that is what Christianity is all about. Jesus’ love took Him to Calvary. Naturally we should try to put ourselves first but that is the sin and consequence of a fallen world.

Oh believe me, in the special needs community this is quite common. I’ve been asked so many times how we could go through risking another sick kid with subsequent pregnancies and a lot of, “no this is definitely our last"s.

Any possibility to love brings the risk of pain. You put your heart out there and it loses it’s hardness. It can be hurt. that’s the truth. But hardness of heart feels so safer.

Oh shoot, here I am at a hotel, and the response I wrote kicked me to the hotel’s terms of usage page.  Dag nab it.  @Claire ;).  @Gloria, you just don’t sound like a Gloria to me, but that’s ok “Glo”.  So here’s the condensed version of what I wrote:  Life affirming choices that aren’t *me* centered are the ones that lead to happiness.  Plain and simple. “Golden Rule”—every great religion will lead you on this path, even if it entails self sacrifice, pain, and self denial—we are evolving on a path toward a higher *self*, our ultimate end is God. The people who become “obsessed” in this life are the ones that become neurotic because they’re constantly trying to dodge a bullet, or shimmy into a cushy position.  Cushy positions get old and stale without the wonder and grace of God infused into them…
As for the “rich” or not “rich” issue hmmmm really relative isn’t it? I suppose we’re all rich compared to someone else in this world.  My bro-in-law sold his company for hundreds of millions but there are some scattered bodies on the roadside behind him…long story, lot’s of pain and unhappiness.  What can I say about “broken-ness?“It is what it is.  Then there’s my sister who has a kid with Downs, what does she and the rest of us do?  Love him!  It’s her husband’s awful boss that gives her nightmares.  As for my own kids, well, a third of them are already well into their own lives apart form us (in stages)—not that they don’t all come home and walk straight to the fridge, or ask me what’s for dinner.  We just love each other plain and simple.  We all have a special weakness for what is comic in life, so we spend a lot of time laughing.  Why mope around about negative stuff in the past? (Yesterday,my son Max showed me that viral youtube with that hilarious Korean music video that’s making the rounds lol I think I’ll have to watch it again right after this)  We do have one sulky 16 yo who is fiiiiinally getting his iphone this weekend (gnash, gnash) but he’ll grow up sooner or later, and I can tell he likes the hugs I chase him down for.  The next teen is the polar opposite.  We’re still waiting to see if he grows a social “filter”, but for the time being he’s a happy go lucky little freak that I adore…the others are just too young to care about anything but playing, and haven’t a clue about IRAs and the like…Anyhow, there’s no fat in the budget, but life has not changed much on a day-to-day basis. In many ways it’s much better.
A com box is a hard place to really convey a multifaceted, truly accurate picture of what it is to love or be part of a big family with all of the accompanying pains and pleasures—what can I say? It’s not the place for an authorized autobiography, lol. But here I am on the internet, because I don’t have the heart to go down to the pool.  It’s just not the same without the kids! :)

It seems only a natural consequence for society’s embracing of pleasure.  If we should not deny ourselves pleasure- whether it be sex, food, or material items- then logically we should not do those things which make us suffer, and the tolerance for that pain gets less and less.  After all, even healthy babies are aborted merely because they would cramp our lifestyle.  Gasp!  I can’t drive a minivan before I’m 30!  I don’t want to be a “Costco Mom!”

Now Anna Lisa, admit it, I know you’re losing sleep over the fact that Gloria/Angela/Anal-lisa doesn’t respect you!  And I’m sure she did try really hard.  But if it’s any consolation, I do respect you, and I didn’t even have to try hard to get there!  (And like you, my household income is quite modest.)  Anyway, I’m enjoying this too much, and I’m starting to get sarcastic which has the potential to get out of hand fast, so I’m also going to call it a night.  Have a great trip to LA!

“Gloria”, It’s kind of fun to talk to someone who says they don’t respect me, because I haven’t had that honor in a while.  I guess that must frustrate you, because Jesus said “Blessed are you when they malign you because of me.”—So I’m pretty delighted!  The only problem is that it isn’t really making me suffer—but I’ll take it!!
Anyhow, I gotta run, I’m hitting the road for L.A. and I haven’t packed a thing, but if it makes you feel better about all the money you think Catholics have so they can have a bunch of kids, that’s really not quite true. (read the com boxes) In our case, in the career and material sense alone, my husband crawled and scratched his way up to a modicum of success and then lost pretty much everything. After surveying the smoking ruins, and a stint with unemployment, we dusted ourselves off and started over again.  Yeah we cried, but after a while (here comes that old suffering thing again)we realized how much it purged us of our materialism.  We laugh now, and agree that it was truly the best thing that ever could have happened to us.  We look at what we have left—our kids, and feel like the richest people on the earth!  My kids learned to laugh about it too.  They love each other even more, love each others’ company more than *stuff* and generally enjoy life by hiking, going to the beach, the movies, and hanging out with mutual friends, they’re just normal teens, twenties and on down the line to the little ones that we spoil, and dote on egregiously.  Frankly, our richest friends/family (in the material sense of the world) are some of the most astoundingly miserable people we know—and yeah, they don’t “get us” either.  They think I’m a freaking nut to have so many kids.  Maybe they semi-kind-of don’t respect me either, but they’d never have the guts to say so.  Plus, it kind of doesn’t make sense since they love all of my kids too…(Oh, they’re so great, and smart and interesting, but gee they shouldn’t exist?)  Aren’t people strange and compartmentalized sometimes?  So “Gloria”, if you ever feel like “if you can’t beat ‘em join ‘em”, in the happy, Catholic looney bin that knows how to transform suffering into joy.  Come on in!  We’ll chuckle about how you insulted us.  Oops, now I really do have to go—xo. :)

Thanks Claire.  I’ve been accused of a lot of things in life, and some of them are fitting.  When I was dating my husband a rather long time ago, he once took me by the shoulders and said “Stop!” “Stop thinking so much about everything! You’re going to drive yourself crazy!”  Hahaha, it was HIM that I drove crazy, and now we’re like two peas in a pod, ruminating about the world and heaven and everything above, below and inside.  I’d almost welcome the relief of being blissfully simple—for a while.  Maybe even for good!  One thing is for sure: I’d get more laundry done.

BTW Claire, my two oldest sons are 3 1/2 years apart.  I didn’t plan it that way, and wondered if I just couldn’t have another one.  I actually started getting a bit of pressure not to stop there, from all sides.  I remember talking to my husband about how perfect our family was and I wondered how I could possible ever love another child as much as our first ...  I simply felt complete.  One day, after reading a book called “Forget Not Love” about the life of Maximilian Kolbe, I was really moved and excited.  I said to my husband, “If we ever have another son, let’s name him after Maximilian Kolbe!”  Hahaha our little Max,(now huge and over 6’) was born 8.5 months later…:)  I was happily relieved that I loved him every bit as much…

Jennifer,

Thank you very much for writing this article. I never understood why you kept having children with your condition and was seriously worried about you. But this makes sense. You like being a mom. You like new life. And you are willing to take a chance to see that new life in your life.

It’s a lot more than just being “Bad at NFP”. So thank you for clarifying.

Anna Lisa, I never remember you making any insensitive comments about onelies.  Actually, I don’t remember anyone on NCR making those types of comments.  So don’t apologize! 

(BTW, sorry about the new variation on your name by our favorite troll.  You are neither anal nor shallow.)

Oh Claire, I’m sorry, I put my foot in my mouth on occasion about “onlies”... mea culpa.  None of the ones that ummm tried my patience had Catholic Moms—JPII was basically an only, and I can’t tell you how much I love that great soul.  My daughter is dating an “only” who is SUCH a good kid.  I just have to get over a few spectacularly awful friends my two oldest sons had who were treated like exotic pets by their parents. :(
@Angela/Gloria/Juanita/Stella More, home ere my awful little troll pet! (giving you a noogie)

Bryan ,
I just read an article on the BBC news site that nurseries in Denmark are offering extra childcare hours so that busy parents can have time to procreate.The nurseries are afraid of running out of business since the Danish birth rates are so low.

Claire, so nice to hear from a mother of an only.  I get that comment from older women.  It’s really creepy!  Yes, I get the other comments as well.  Sometimes, I just want to walk around with a sign that reads “Mother of an only—but not because of contraception!”  Really, though, the question that bothers me most is “Are you having anymore?”  I suppose tactless people have been around forever, but the Victorian reserve of the past looks really good to me.

Jenny:  I only have one, and I’ve never gotten that one.  What a ridiculous question!  Even for someone who has lots of kids, it’s not like kids are interchangeable (oh well, if something happens to this one it’s okay because I have many others)!  People are unbelievable.  What I get a lot are the stereotypical comments about only children (that they’re spoiled, selfish, etc).  Which is ironic because I’m pretty strict with my son, and he’s very sweet, generous and well behaved.  And anyway, it’s not my fault I don’t have more.  It certainly isn’t for a lack of trying.

People will say anything.  I have only one and tire of hearing “but what if something happens to him?”

A woman told a group of us (waiting for our kids to come out of dance) that she’d wanted a large family - 6 kids! - but they stopped after two because their second was so sick when she was born and “we just couldn’t take that again if it happened.” It made me sad, and so did the woman who, when she heard the first woman say she had wanted 6 children, blurted out, “WHY???!!!??” as if children in too great a number (even wanted) is stupidly insane.

All of my friends who are open to life have also had to face the fact that they’re also open to death; most of them have miscarried at least once, if not multiple times. Understanding the theology of suffering would go a long way to helping people be more open to life, and I can attest to that from my own experiences with horribly bad pregnancies. If I had more spiritual maturity and a better understanding of the purpose of my own suffering, perhaps I wouldn’t have made some of the mistakes I made, and I’d have a few more children surrounding me today.

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Kathryn,

Your comments would be well received in the echo chamber at the national catholic reporter.  Also, you would do well to watch the two-part documentary “Demographic Winter” - it may change your perspective.

I have nine—seven living. It was definitely after the fourth that I began to be asked (right on the delivery bed) “so- are you done yet?” and by extended family, “you know what causes this, right?”
Oh heavens. Would any of them say that right to the face of the fifth, sixth or seventh?

enness ,
And in 50 years some projections show not many people of any age in Europe.

Posted by WI Mom on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2012 6:59 PM (EST):He that raises a large family does, indeed, while he lives to observe them, stand a broader mark for sorrow; but then he stands a broader mark for pleasure too. ~ Benjamin Franklin”
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Great quote. Thanks!

“There are plenty of people on the planet.”
Depends on where you are.  There are not plenty of young people in Europe, and not plenty of women in southeast Asia.  Perhaps they would accept people donations from you/us.
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Zeke, perhaps we should qualify this fear: “unfounded; unreasonable; out of proportion to risk.”

Great piece Jennifer. Thanks for writing it. It applies to so many other aspects of life. We fear facing our problems because the promise of a better future state is less certain than the mediocrity of our current state. We choose not to risk a lifestyle that is “good enough” for the opportunity to live in super abundance. Have a great day.

Anna Lisa is full informed.  Hormonal contraceptives have a primary function of preventing ovulation.  Their secondary function is to make the uterine lining inhospitable to an embryo, so that if the primary function fails, it is likely that an embryo will be aborted rather than implant.  The message board you stumbled on, by the way, is on a faithful Catholic pro-life website.

oh wow, chemical abortions from birth control. Didn’t realize I had stumbled onto *that* kind of message board. Get informed, please. Speak w/ a doctor.

“Angela”, What made me feel shame as a present day Catholic, was to see the daughter of the first Catholic president of the United States of America, proclaim a woman’s right to dismember, burn or decapitate her own unborn baby.  It’s a savage world, and we put forth savage excuses for our abhorrent solutions to present day problems.  Our country has presided over the death of 50 million thus far, not counting all of the chemical abortions from birth control.

Oh Angela, up to your tricks again eh?  How’s the weather at your condo? ;)

There were many other forms of torture used during the Inquisition. These included the Boot (a wooden framed shoe that was placed on the foot of a witness and was tightened slowly and methodically to crush the bones of the feet and the lower leg), the Thumb Screw (which slowly and methodically crushed the fingers of the alleged non-believers), the Whip and the Breast Ripper.

Perhaps the cruelest aspect of the torture process was that after the victim recanted his alleged sins, he was then punished for them. The Inquisition was just the trial to extract a confession. The ensuing punishment ranged from forfeiture of all assets to the Crown and the Cross to, you guessed it, death by torture.

One must keep in mind that the Spanish Government could not have carried out the Inquisition without the active assistance of the Church. This type of mass trial by ordeal, bloody torture, and confiscation of the assets of the accused probably could not have taken place for merely secular reasons.
By including the Church as an arm of the government, however, the King and Queen were able to eliminate their political opponents without very much resistance from the Spanish people, who were told that the Inquisition was something aimed to get everyone to believe the one great truth of Christianity. It was a way to root out evil bogeyman and either kill them or, at the very least, force them to confess their alleged sins against Christ and repent.
All tolled, Spanish Inquisitors tortured or killed as many as 150,000 people people between the years of 1480 and 1530. Most of the victims were Jewish or Muslim. Then, as Protestantism began to rise, the Church turned its ire towards those followers of Martin Luther, a group who claimed to be true Christians but according to the Church, were heretics. Persecution of Protestants continued on for another 150 years.

St. Blandina:
She was tortured by tormentors who took turns from morning till night until they were overcome. She continued to live despite her whole body being torn asunder and pierced. Later, she was bound and suspended on a stake, being exposed as food for wild animals. When none of the animals would touch her, she was taken down from the stake and returned to prison for another time. Then, after scourging, exposure to animals, and roasting, she was thrown into a net and cast before a bull. After much tossing from the animal, she died.

Lessons We Can Learn From the Martyrs

We learn what it means to be COMMITTED to the Lord! It is easy to be a Christian if it does not cost anything, but what if your very life were on the line? Would you still be proud to be a Christian then? If attending church might cost you your life, would you still attend? The Lord Jesus Christ was willing to suffer and die for us, and down through the centuries there have been thousands of believers who have been willing to suffer and die for their Saviour!
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These persecutions prove the truthfulness of the Bible. Again and again Jesus told His disciples that the world would _____________ them (John 15:18 and see also John 15:19-21; John 16:1-3; 16:33; 17:14; 1 John 3:13). The Lord’s words were absolutely true! The world hated Christ and crucified Him. In the same way the world has hated Christ’s true followers.
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The great persecutions against the church show us the awful picture of human depravity (how wicked and sinful men really are). The cruelty and brutality and wickedness of men is not seen any more clearly than in the persecution against Christians. Men have dreamed up the most cruel and unusual forms of torture and punishment possible and used them against believers. Those who do not believe in the terrible sinfulness of men have apparently never studied the Christian martyrs and how they were treated.
The persecutions demonstrated that God is faithful in giving His believers all that they need in the moment of need. Many believers have perished in the hot flames with a hymn on their lips, singing praise to God. How could they do this? How could they have such courage? How could they suffer such pain so bravely? The answer is found in 2 Corinthians 12:9-10. God’s grace is sufficient! God’s grace is all that a believer needs! God’s strength is enough! God can supply the amount of “dying grace” that the believer needs.
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The persecutions teach us that prosperity produces spiritual decline. When the persecutions stopped the church became corrupt and weak. When things were rough and tough the church was strong. When things got easy the church declined rapidly!
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The persecutions proved the indestructible nature of the church. How could the Church ever survive and even prosper during such persecutions? The answer is found in Matthew 16:18. God is building His CHURCH and even the most fierce fires of persecution cannot bring to a halt God’s building program!
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The accounts of the Christian martyrs is a great encouragement to believers living today. By learning of their example we find ourselves strengthened in the trials that we face. It also helps us to search our own hearts: How would I do if some Christ-hating people were to overtake our nation and say to me, “If you deny the Christian faith you will live but if you confess that Jesus Christ is your Lord and that you are a Christian, then you will die!”? By God’s grace may each of us hold fast to Christ unto the very END (see Hebrews 3:6,14)!

He that raises a large family does, indeed, while he lives to observe them, stand a broader mark for sorrow; but then he stands a broader mark for pleasure too. ~ Benjamin Franklin

My impression is that secularists are not afraid of suffering per se. I must say that even I am afraid of suffering and our Lord agonized with it before his passion. My impression is that secularists are afraid of how suffering might affect their comfort, resources and lifestyle. That is where we as Christians must part ways with secularists, in how we must detach ourselves from that comfort zone and see suffering, not within the context of the material but in the context of the spiritual.

Blessed Martyr Helconis lived under the Emperor Gordian, and came from the city Thessalia. Arrested and brought before Perennius, the Governor of Corinth, she refused to sacrifice to idols, but preaching Christ and none other, she was first bound by the feet to an ox yoke, and laid in molten lead and boiling pitch, but escaped unharmed.
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She was then shaven and her whole body drenched in fire. Remaining unharmed once again, she went into the temple of idols, and by her prayers threw down to the earth the images of Pallas, Jupiter, and Aesculapius.
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But when Justinus succeeded Perennius as Proconsul, her bosoms were cut off, and being brought before the new Governor, she was cast into a furnace of blazing fire, but the flames did not so much as touch her, although they burned up and consumed many of the soldiers.
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Afterward she was stretched out on a brass bedstead heated red-hot, but suddenly a company of Angels stood round her, and saved the holy martyr from all harm. Next she was exposed to wild beasts, which, while they did her no harm, yet slew several of their keepers. Finally the Governor pronounced sentence, which she most gratefully received; and so she was beheaded and took her departure to heaven.
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Catholics don’t suffer, or make others suffer, as well as martyrs did in the old days.

Kay, you are so right.  Jesus didn’t come from a high profile area either! (“Can something *good* come out of Nazareth?”) Anyhow, while it is possible to have a big family in an expensive urban area, it can be really, really tough.  It has forced me to question every single want and need we are presented with, and I do wonder at times if the extra stress is worth it.  It’s a catch22 because as UrbanMan pointed out, it is in places such as these that the higher paying jobs are.

Life is worth living….life is worth living….life is worth living….PRAISE GOD, life is worth living.  ALL OF IT.  Every heartbeat, every beath, every step, every blink.  ALL IS A GIFT FROM GOD!

Yes, it was my non-Catholic grandmother’s stories of her life experiences that taught me at the age of 8 that when you are poor you still have your dignity, all obstacles can be overcome and that abortion is evil.  Fear not!

@Kathryn, to be sure, some of the most generous and fruitful souls of all have never given birth to a single child.  It is not about quantity, it is about self donation—being open to God.
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It’s a given that material goods are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. Unfortunately, most of us are tempted at times to replace people with things, or not to see the true value of a human life. Our world is suffering because of this kind of “poverty”.  Mother Teresa never wanted to be measured by how *many* she helped.  Her motto, “I thirst”, reflected her desire to love her neighbor,as well as she could, whomever that individual might be in a given moment.
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Perhaps suffering elevated to the cross is the most fruitful of all.  We are blind in this life to the true effects of suffering we have sanctified this way.  Many will find that they are the parents of MANY, in the spiritual order which is most important,as opposed to the physical order of human reproduction.  When Jesus said, “Who is my Mother?  Who is my brother?—The one that does the will of my Father.” 
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Can you imagine?  Maybe that little old lady at mass that nobody pays attention to will have multitudes of grateful children in heaven.  I often think that my own conversion to the faith I was brought up in, was the result of some hidden soul whom I will gratefully be introduced to some day.

Why is fear of birth defects less of a “serious reason” than any other reason to use NFP?

kay ,
I hear you. Abraham Lincoln was born into a similar home environment & look how he turned out.
:)

My point was that these reasons including birth defects did not put fear in the hearts of our great great-grandparents and frighten them from having children.  Those issues were more scary then than now.  They trusted in God, as they were more faith abiding than society as a whole today.  I thank my Gradmother everyday for not aborting my mother although she was encouraged to do so because of her mother-in-law’s bigotry.  She was a poor white tenant farmer with only a 3rd grade education, lived in a converted one-room barn with a dirt floor and hung wet sheets over the walls and windows to keep the dirt out. This was her neighborhood.  She didn’t fear these obstacles, she conquered them and raised her family. She worked hard and had her dignity.  She was smarter than many with post-doctoral degrees.  Conquer your fears and trust God!

Kathryn ,
Maybe you are responding more to the comments than the article?

So those who chose to limit their family size don’t embrace life, fear suffering and must be choosing to do so for selfish reasons? What about all of the lives already here? What about the children (especially special-needs children) who would love to be adopted? What about the finite resources (food, shelter, energy) of the earth? Maybe those who choose smaller family size are less selfish because they are thinking of the suffering of ALL of God’s people, not just their own. What about time - also finite - and wanting to use your time and talents for your own children as well as volunteering to help others in your community? I come from a family of 6 children, and have three kids myself, and each day I am well aware that there are only so many hours in the day to sit and connect, play, read, sing and dance with them.

If good schools and good neighborhoods are serious reasons not to have children, then we would have to conclude that most of our great-grandmothers should never have been born.

Beautifully said, Anna Lisa.  Your take on this is similar to my reasons for opting against fulltime work outside the home.  My earning potential is far greater than my husband’s, and we would have a very different lifestyle if I worked fulltime.  I’m sure people look down on us for living frugally (small house, etc) when technically it doesn’t have to be that way for us.  But like you, material things aren’t as important to me as the time I spend with my son.  (And I’m not, by the way, putting down mothers who have to work or choose to work;  I’m just sharing my reasons for my decision to limit my work outside the home.)

In my experience God gives us what we need, whether we had one child or nine.  My husband and I started out in a small studio apartment. It’s true that “necessity is the mother of invention”.  At our high point we owned two overvalued homes worth more than a million each.  Now we don’t own one. I have only lived in places where the median home price is a million dollars.  We live very frugally.  We own one car right now.  We use public education in the best districts, and have sent three to private colleges. Our third earned a full ride scholarship. God gives, God prunes, God corrects, God blesses.  I always say that our skinny IRA won’t hug us on our death beds.  Yeah, the yuppies sometimes look down on us, and that hurts, but there is nothing material in this world that I would trade for any one of my children.

Anna Lisa, I am in tears. Thank you for your witness. It touched me. 

Jennifer, thank you for writing this article. I have dealt with the thoughts of worrying about a disabled baby. For me, I found it to be part an issue of faith and part the emergence of an anxiety disorder that developed in my early 20’s. For me I was terrified of something that “I” may have done. Did I not eat well enough, did i not take my vitamins, did I have too much stress, yadda yadda. When we did have issues with my son not gaining weight (and not realizing it for 6 weeks!) I was seized with intense fear that I ruined him, that his brain wouldn’t develop properly. I developed panic attacks (soon I realized I had PPD). You know, people telling me he was a smart baby and looked so healthy would only half soothe me and for only a moment. It wasn’t until someone looked at me and said: and so what ? What if there is something wrong with him? What then? Will you love him any less? Then it hit me.  No. And life goes on. My mom has said something similiar to me recently about her and my dad’s philosophy on raising children. She said when there was something wrong you simply figured out what was going on and then you dealt with it. Oh. Yes. It doesn’t mean it will be easy but it makes it much less complicated!

I appreciate this article since it helps me recognize a dissonence in my pro-life no matter what stand and my own will slightly shielding itself from the fear of having a child with a disability. It always starts in our own hearts. God bless you!

Economic reasons are serious reasons to avoid pregnancy. Good neighborhoods and good schools are serious reasons, not trivial ones. As long as the couple is using NFP and not contraception to avoid, there is no problem.

It irks me when Catholics seem to imply that “serious reasons” don’t exist. And my serious reason may not be yours.

I acknowledge I missed that there are people who fear having more children due to fears about birth defects and that it is often tied to woman’s ages.
The reality is that modernization brings smaller family sizes it is a whole bunch of variables that drive this that are unlikely to change. Urbanization is the key driving now and more humans now live in cities that in non urban location’s for the first time in history , thus, smaller family sizes are likely to be the norm worldwide. Urban living is not conducive to large families and young adults typically coming of age now are from small families themselves. I am from a family with seven children but know almost no one In my generation with more than three, most of our friends have two or just one , most of us seem perfectly content with our small families and its just not a big issue. Our kids turn out just fine. The high adult to kid ratio has benefits as well. There are plenty of people on the planet.

UrbanMan: “...essentials such as safe neighborhoods, good schools, good jobs come at a high price in large, urban areas. Few people I know with ‘only’ 1 or 2 kids live large. Not everyone lives in rural Ohio or Pennsylvania. For those who do and can have a large family where Dad has a good enough job, God bless them. But, let’s get off the soapbox which looks down on small families as if the number of children one has equates to holiness.”

Your fears need to be addressed from the perspective of actually trusting that God is in charge and the fact that we are denying Him another soul in creation if we let these small fears rule us.  I speak as a sibling of 10 and the mother of 6.  Both my father and my husband were job-to-job(NOT union) carpenters. Ialso worked. I would hold the health, education, safety and happiness of my family up against yours, or any other small family, for comparison any day.  We have the exact same rate of college and post-graduate education as every small family I know.  We live IN the city of Chicago, btw.

UrbanMan, I only have one (living) child, and this post does not make me feel looked down on.  You, on the other hand, put down Jennifer’s “argument” as silly.  For one thing, it wasn’t an argument.  She quoted a real person who stated that it was the fear of birth defects that motivated her to avoid subsequent pregnancies.  Many people here have witnessed the same statements.  No one said it was the only reason that people avoid large families, or even that it is the most common reason.  But enough people here have heard it verbalized as a reason, that it must be a reason for some people, even if you haven’t personally met any of them.

@UrbanMan,

You think “the #1 reason is a serious economic reason.” How is that not a fear of suffering?

Claire, Thank You! :)

My viewpoint is limited to living in large, U.S. cities. I’ve never met a single family who decided not to have more children because of fear of birth defects. The #1 reason is a serious economic reason.

We have a couple friends with large families where mom stays at home and Dad makes serious money and I say good for them. Unfortunately, this is not always the case. Essentials such as [a] safe neighborhoods good schools [c] good jobs come at a high price in large, urban areas. Few people I know with ‘only’ 1 or 2 kids live large.