SOUTH BEND, Ind. — After years of petitions, Notre Dame, the premier Catholic university in the United States, has announced it will create an official campus support group for homosexual students and their friends.
But Notre Dame has a more radical idea than the petitioners imagined: It plans to create a permanent student organization grounded fully in Catholic social and moral teaching.
Students and faculty at Notre Dame aggressively pressed Notre Dame’s administration and president, Holy Cross Father John Jenkins, to approve an official “gay-straight alliance” club on campus and add sexual orientation into the university’s legal protections.
AllianceND, an unofficial club for homosexual students and their allies, requested approval as an official student club on campus. The club’s proposed constitution, however, did not address Catholic teaching other than pledge the club would “not address GLBTQ issues that are in opposition to [Notre Dame’s] Catholic identity.” The GLBTQ acronym stands for “Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgendered and Questioning.”
The Progressive Student Alliance spearheaded the campaign for AllianceND’s approval with “It needs to get better” videos spread all over social media and convinced both the student and faculty senates to vote their support.
But instead of approving or denying official recognition to AllianceND, Notre Dame’s administration came to a solution that has both surprised and excited the campus and elicited praise from the local Catholic bishop.
“I am confident that this multifaceted, pastoral approach represents the next step in advancing our efforts toward this aspiration for our GLBTQ students,” Father Jenkins said in a press release.
‘Beloved Friends’
Notre Dame’s Office of Student Affairs has developed a comprehensive plan, called “Beloved Friends and Allies: A Pastoral Plan for the Support and Holistic Development of GLBTQ and Heterosexual Students at the University of Notre Dame.”
One part of the initiative is a new student organization fully engaged in supporting GLBTQ youth with Catholic resources and within a Catholic context.
“Notre Dame’s Catholic mission grounds all of the revised structures outlined in the 'Pastoral Plan,' including the student organization,” Erin Harding, vice president for student affairs, told the Register. “These structures are designed both to continue to build an inclusive community at Notre Dame and promote students’ holistic growth and development, including their moral and spiritual formation.”
The plan calls for a permanent body that homosexual and heterosexual students may join and elect officers. The new student organization will provide peer-to-peer support, programming, service opportunities and integrate students better with the programs and formation initiatives of Notre Dame’s Gender Relations Center, Campus Ministry, the University Counseling Center and the Institute for Church Life.
But, most significantly, Notre Dame’s "Pastoral Plan" declares that its “goals and objectives, as well as its programs and initiatives, are consonant with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.” It dedicates eight paragraphs to making this point, repeatedly citing passages from the Catechism of the Catholic Church dealing with marriage, sexuality, friendship and the life of chastity.
The plan notes: “The Catholic Church states that ‘love is the fundamental and innate vocation of every human being’ (CCC, 2392) but also attests that the call to chastity is God’s invitation for all to be in loving relationship with others according to the demands of the moral virtues (CCC, 2348).”
The plan repeatedly notes that the new student organization will uphold “the challenging, even though beautiful and life-giving, call to chaste relationships” and that “Student Affairs neither condones nor supports sexual activity outside the marital relationship or any sexual activities that ‘close the sexual act to the gift of life’ (CCC, 2357).”
Skepticism
Father Jenkins approved the plan after conducting a five-month review, but some critics were skeptical about whether the university administration could effectively secure the new organization’s adherence to Church teaching.
“The school has regularly turned down these requests for the last 15 years because these clubs collide with Catholic identity,” said William Dempsey, president of the Sycamore Trust, an alumni organization dedicated to upholding Notre Dame’s Catholic identity. “The issue here is the approval of a gay student organization and then giving it the additional exalted status of a ‘student organization.’ That ranks it alongside student government, and we have no indication Father Jenkins will impose any limitations or Church doctrine.”
Dempsey expressed concern over Father Jenkins’s leadership of Notre Dame with respect to its Catholic identity and said he had no confidence Father Jenkins would restrict the student organization’s activities. He cited the university president’s decision to give President Barack Obama an honorary law degree in 2009, despite public objections from scores of U.S. bishops; the handling of the 88 pro-life protesters who were charged with criminal trespassing at the Notre Dame campus for protesting against President Obama’s being honored; and Father Jenkins’s permissions for an on-campus production of the obscene playThe V----- Monologues and sponsorship of a “Queer Film Festival.”
However, the play has not made an appearance on campus since 2008, when Father Jenkins ordered that its presentation be accompanied by panel discussions with a “sympathetic and thorough presentation of Catholic teaching” on sexuality. And Tom O’Neil, an alumnus who helped to found Notre Dame’s “Queer Film Festival” in 2004, also blamed Father Jenkins for administration moves that O’Neil said had caused the “slow, quiet strangulation” of the homosexual film festival by 2009.
Patrick Reilly, president of the Cardinal Newman Society, said Notre Dame’s attempt to address homosexual issues in an authentically Catholic way was “impressive.” However, he said, Father Jenkins must impose restrictions on the group’s activities.
“The problem comes from the students who are engaged in this issue but have a lack of catechesis and moral maturity,” Reilly said.
Notre Dame law professor Gerard Bradley, the former director of Notre Dame’s Natural Law Institute, was similarly cautious. While the "Pastoral Plan" includes “some sound elements,” it needs more specifics, he said.
“There is substantial cause for concern about the soundness of that coming implementation,” Bradley said. “For example, the plan says that Notre Dame affirms Church teaching, which distinguishes between homosexual acts and the homosexual condition, and that the condition itself is not sinful. But the plan nowhere affirms the Church’s teaching that the condition is itself objectively disordered.”
Holy Cross Father William Miscamble, who is a Notre Dame history professor, said his own misgiving is that the university’s good intentions might go awry.
“Much will depend on the implementation of the 'Pastoral Plan,' but such an organization seems likely to develop into an advocacy group promoting the gay lifestyle,” he said. “This will run counter to the professed goals of the plan and will be very damaging to the Catholic mission and identity of Notre Dame.”
But Holy Cross Father William Dailey, a visiting lecturer at the university’s law school and a fellow at Notre Dame’s Center of Ethics and Culture, expressed optimism that Notre Dame had seized an opportunity to engage directly in a conversation with students about living a life of holiness in the context of same-sex attraction.
“This document does not include the culture’s belief that we find our real identity in our sexual orientation or sexual identity,” Father Dailey noted. “Rather, we find our identity in Christ. I think this is an effort to minister pastorally to this group without in any way compromising our Church’s beautiful teachings, especially on chastity.”
Stronger Oversight
Student affairs vice president Harding explained in an email to the Register that the university will have much more say over the formation and direction of the student organization than would be the case if it had authorized an official student club.
“We determined that a recognized student organization provides both autonomy and accountability for our students to offer peer-to-peer support and service opportunities,” Harding said.
Harding said that clubs can “make constitutional changes at will” and change their advisors whenever they like. As a student organization, however, the university “always” appoints the advisor, and no constitutional changes can be approved without the advisor’s consent.
To fill that position, Harding said Notre Dame is looking for a full-time student development professional “who understands and embraces the university’s Catholic mission.” Students will have a voice in the hiring process, but once a candidate is selected, the plan will be fully implemented.
Eve Tushnet, an openly homosexual writer living as a faithful Catholic, said she found Notre Dame’s approach “refreshing.”
“I think the focus on friendship is perhaps more surprising and refreshing than it may seem to those outside these debates,” Tushnet said. “While young people do have questions about Catholic teaching, they also have no role model for leading a chaste gay life.”
Tushnet suggested that Notre Dame’s action could open lines of communication with homosexual youth about how to live a full Catholic life, develop friendships and find their vocation.
Tushnet said the loneliness of living silently with same-sex attraction creates a huge opening for sin: “This can lead to hooking up with the opposite sex to prove you are not gay, despair, leaving the Church and dishonesty.”
Bishop Rhoades
Bishop Kevin Rhoades of South Bend, Ind., told the Register that Notre Dame’s initiative has praiseworthy objectives and should not be dismissed beforehand.
“I believe there is a need at Catholic universities to provide pastoral care and support to persons with same-sex attraction. This is what Notre Dame’s 'Pastoral Plan' is attempting to do,” Bishop Rhoades said. “This pastoral care should help the students not to feel unwelcome or alienated in the community, but also help them to lead chaste and holy lives.”
“I think that people, especially youth, who feel isolated or alienated can be more susceptible to destructive unchaste behavior,” Bishop Rhoades said. “Isolation, alienation, insecurity, etc. can lead to pleasure-seeking in sinful behavior that ultimately brings unhappiness.”
Bishop Rhoades stressed that Christians must understand that ministry to homosexual persons is an essential element of the integral promotion of human dignity, which is critical to the success of the pro-life movement as well.
“Promoting chastity is an important part of our pro-life commitment,” Bishop Rhoades said. “The Sixth Commandment that calls us to chastity follows the Fifth Commandment that calls us to respect life. It is the connection between life and love.”
Notre Dame senior Chris Damian, a philosophy major and writer for The Observer campus newspaper, told the Register that he had shared the concerns that the administration would approve a student club that could pose a similar challenge to Catholic teachings about sexuality.
But Damian said students at Notre Dame, even those with concerns like himself, welcomed the administration’s move in “Beloved Friends and Allies.”
“I’m very enthusiastic, because Notre Dame has a great opportunity to make a radical commitment to the care of these students,” Damian said.
Alex Coccia, a junior majoring in Africana studies and co-chairman of AllianceND, said he was pleased with the pastoral plan and that its initiatives were grounded in Church teaching. Although socially progressive himself, Coccia said that AllianceND would never had gained the majority support it received at Notre Dame if it had opposed Church teaching, especially on same-sex "marriage."
He said AllianceND would end its bid for club status and transfer into the new student organization.
“Ultimately, we decided that the goals of AllianceND are found in this new organization, especially the peer-to-peer support,” Coccia said.
The next key phase in the development of the student organization will be drafting its constitution, a process that will involve participation of both students and the administration. Coccia said he expected that “components of the 'Pastoral Plan'” will be part of the new constitution.
Not ‘Morally Neutral’
However, Bishop Rhoades cautioned that pastoral plans and support groups for homosexual students and their friends cannot take a “morally neutral” position on homosexuality.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, in 2357, that “homosexual acts are gravely disordered” and that “under no circumstances can they be approved.”
“They are called to be faithful to the Christian message as handed on to us through the Church,” Bishop Rhoades said of pastoral outreaches on Catholic campuses. “Such ‘moral neutrality’ does not serve the ultimate good of the students.”
Peter J. Smith writes from Rochester, New York.
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Sounds good. I myself am not opposed to people with same sex attraction joining religious vocations. Because a vow of chastity is a vow of chastity no matter what your orientation is.
They are playing with dynamite.
I sorry but I disagree with Fr. Jenkins, he just let the devil in the front door. Do you really think that this will be maintained accordingly, I think not?
Once you let an LGBTQ club into the school, it will change. The students will change and then they will ask for more and when they don’t get more they will cry discrimination and all hell will break lose.
There’s more background information with regard to the fact that those who are pushing for a pro-homosexual club at Notre Dame will not respect Catholic teaching on the topic. See http://www.tfpstudentaction.org/what-we-do/news-and-updates/glbtq-club-at-university-of-notre-dame.html
Gays are not throw away people. Best to address the situation in a Catholic way. Notre Dame should be the leader of Catholic outreach to gay students. To address the issue of sex identity at the very early age of child development should help. Johnnette Benkovic - Women of Grace® Program
#10184 - The Gay Impact: When Does “Gay” Begin?
Lou
Well, considering the group is LGB and ‘T’ for transgender, how does acceptance of a group for transgenders relate to our faith? Same sex attraction and chastity as a message is well and good…if it will actually teach that but acknowledgement of transgender is a slap in the face to God’s creation of man and woman.
Call me a cynic, but when it comes to something as politically sensitive as homosexuality, noting authentically Catholic can come out of Notre Dame University.
That school’s soul has been corrupted a long time ago and as such, such a tree cannot bear good fruit.
Watch and see.
What is a “homosexual person”? Human persons must order their sexuality so that it fulfills the beautiful role the Creator designed for it. Human persons can be tempted in ways that do not fulfill that role and which are therefor ultimately unfulfilling.
Notre Dame is now famous for flaunting very basic sensibilities concerning sexuality. The university’s invitation to our current President to speak and receive an honorary doctorate was in invitation to the most powerful person in the world today working against Chrisitian views of sexuality.
I appreciate though the comments of Bishop Rhodes. Where persons struggle with temptations toward disordered sexual behavior the church must come in a pastoral way to help them find the path of light that the Gospel presents. I am grateful for his prominence in this discussion. I hope Bishop Rhodes’ hopes about the ND plan are fulfilled. I am skeptical with Mr. Dempsey and Fr. Miscamble.
Unreal !!! This should not be ever called a Catholic University again this is more of playing into the culture of utter nonsense we live in ! What has the Pope to say about this ...?? It’s sickening .
“..Notre Dame had seized an opportunity to engage directly in a conversation with students…”
Is this an admission that N.D. is disengaged from students when it’s professors teach?
Just more political structure that homosexuals love that will eventually block Catholic teaching. The same politics we see nationally.
http://www.couragerc.net/
There already is a Catholic organization for homosexuals, which calls for chastity and adherence to Catholic teachings.
Giving a student organization recognition is very dangerous.
Whatever happened to homosexuality being an abomination in the eyes of God? And yes, homosexuality IS an abomination in the eyes of God. So, have catholics suddenly decided to ignore the word of God now? Notre Dame should be ahamed of herself!
sincerely in Christ,
Peggy L
Prescott Valley AZ
A questionable step into developing a more Liberalized, pop culture, western trendy Catholic faith that may (intentionally or unintentionally) segment itself into a faith of segregated Catholic churches. Congregations where a healthy, though sometimes harsh truth is mutually avoided for the sake of marginalizing sin and easing the conscience. This can become a form of redefined faith, tailor made to fit an agenda of (the follower) pushing morality (the Teacher) into a corner like a rebellious tot. The Catholic faith in America is in the midst a serious test of faith. And there will be more challenges on the horizon to determine the strength of it’s will to remain a solid foundation for Christ that remains steeped in His Truth.
The fundamental question is whether the recognition of the homosexual/lesbian/straight organization was prudent in view of the risks. (This is unrelated to the expansion of counseling services, which, provided the counseling is properly directed and executed, may do much good.) The article does not mention that, two days after ND acted, the bishops’ university, the Catholic University of America, after as long a study as Notre Dame’s, turned down their students’ similar request.
Which decision is more consonant with Catholic identity? The decision turns upon a consideration of a wide range of factors much too broad for an article but that Sycamore Trust will treat fully soon. They certainly are not addressed in the University’s statement, which does not suggest why its long standing policy against recognition because of the school’s Catholic character is no longer valid. The factors include the significance of ND’s action in the broad and powerful gay rights movement, its effect on those Catholic schools who have resisted these campaigns (Catholic University is now left the lone holdout among the 25 largest Catholic schools, though most of the smaller schools continue to resist); what the student organizers and faculty supporters were aiming at and what their reaction has been; what ND’s past record suggests as to the likelihood that the organization will be a vehicle for the infusion, rather than the undermining, of the Church’s teaching that homosexual sex is intrinsically disordered and gravely sinful; most especially whether ND, by improving greatly its low ranking on the “gay friendly” listings, will now become so attractive to homosexuals as the highest rated Catholic university that a large and active homosexual community will develop that will be an ever more forceful advocate of the gay agenda, as we have seen at Georgetown University; and much more.
For now, I merely add several clarifications to this article: It is not that we “have no indication Father Jenkins will impose any limitation or Church doctrine.” It is, rather, that we do have such an indication and that it is troubling. Fr. jenkins has declared that he will not impose “limitations” based on “Church teaching” that he could “theoretically” impose. As a practical matter and perhaps as a matter of principle in a university, he is probably right. But this inability is presumably one of the reasons for the University’s past and now rescinded policy. Second, it is not accurate to say that The Vagina Monologues disappeared when Fr. Jenkins required that post-play discussions include consideration of Church teachings. The production continued for several years, during which most of the faculty participants were supportive of the play, which was largely an encomium to lesbian sex. The final production filled a large auditorium, and most of the students left when the panel began. What happened was that a student-composed play, Loyal Daughters, which Fr. Jenkins had encouraged, took the Vagina Monologues place. (I hope the telling full title will not be elided.) It was so objectionable in some of the students’ accounts of personal sexual encounters that Fr. Jenkins, while authorizing it, refused to sponsor it. Finally, Bishop Rhoades is of course correct in saying that the plan as described has some praiseworthy objectives and that it should not be dismissed beforehand. Everyone in a position to provide proper direction will, we trust, do so, particularly including Bishop Rhoades. Bishop Rhoades’s statement is quite clear. He neither praises nor criticizes the decision. He says it is “essential” that it be infused throughout with Catholic teaching and that he “hopes” and “prays” that it will. So do we all.
But that is not the question. The question is whether, given the risks this action poses, including in particular its threat to the school’s Catholic identity over the long run, this was the proper decision for a Catholic university to make and should be broadly adopted, or whether, rather, Catholic University chose the better course. Notre Dame is preeminent and should set the example for others. Thoughtful Catholics will want to know a great deal more before deciding. I invite them to follow the discussion through Sycamore Trust, http://www.sycamoretrust.org
I don’t understand why these people want to go to ND in the first place when it goes against who they are and what they practice. It is like Sandra Fluke going to Georgetown and wanting them to change for her not her change for them. Go to another school and free up space at ND.
I don’t understand why so many discussions regarding homosexuality don’t discuss the real issues involved. Is it that most basic facts of homosexuality are ignored due to the prevailing propaganda that spreads misinformation and suppresses the truth? 1) Homosexuality is NOT GENETIC. (Homosexuals cannot reproduce.) 2) Homosexuality is a choice. It can be like an addiction similar to alcoholism, drugs or smoking.
3) Homosexuality can be CURED. (Check with such organizations as “Courage” and “Exodus” to get specifics and success rates) -It takes about a year. -They have achieved consistent cure rates of 90%.
What did you expect when 75 percent of “Catholics” no longer believe in the definitive doctrine of our faith.
GLBTQ “Student Organization” versus “Student Club”, the former apparently having greater autonomy minus the imprimatur of “club” status; I don’t quite get or care about the distinction. It amounts to no more than hair splitting, and a bump in the road in the homosexual/transgender, et al rights end game. In the same vein that acquiescence to civil unions led to gay marriage, so will one follow the other in the acceptance of any gay organization. The ultimate pursuit is not to submit to Catholic teaching but to “fundamentally transform” Catholicism as President Obama wants to “fundamentally transform” America utilizing the trust accorded him as president, and abusing the limitations of power granted to the Executive branch.
Fr. Jenkins is a man with a spotty track record, and I am given pause by the fact that *he* is the one who is promoting this. On the other hand, God has a reputation for working with weak and fallen men. On the surface, this sounds like a course of action with the potential to do much good, and I pray God’s grace makes it so. Time will tell, and I ask that all the skeptics give it some time to see what God does with it.
I have just read the “Constitution” of this group and this is an outrage to any practicing Catholic. Notre Dames “spirit of inclusion” is a spirit that EXCLUDES the truth. It is Mayor Tom Menino’s definition of “inclusion”. The group is not constituted to help the student come to terms with the disorder but to change Catholics to accept it as a positive identity. The constitution states the group is formed not to help the GLBT become whole, but to address “misunderstanding, exclusion and AVERSIVE HOMOPHOBIA”! HELLOOOO!!!! Who is afraid? We aren’t afraid. We recognize sin as sin. Who coined the word homophobia? Not heterosexuals! WE are the PROBLEM?????? WE are what needs to be addressed? NOT the homosexual condition? Not the fact that our children are SEXUALLY labelled from early childhood because they are timid or scrawny or unathletic or dramatic or self-centered or too handsome? Since when is timid or scrawny or unathletic or dramatic or self-centered or too handsome a SEXUAL identity? It isn’t to anyone but predatory homosexuals, those who have believed the lie that ones character traits or interests tells ones sexuality!!!!Since when has ANY of us not changed dramatically from the dweeb we were at a young age to a whole new adult if we were free from the oppressive labelling and bullying and cultural stereotypes this generation has been drowned in by activists? This is a bold-faced attempt to make a lie the truth. And not just a lie but MANY lies! There is a spiritual and social ill here and it affects the person and it harms the person and society. It is not society that has to accept treatment, it is the person, the soul, with the trauma or disorder or abused innocence that need to be healed. These young men and women have been seduced by money, materialism, star power, current fads, abuse, egotism, and on and on and Notre Dame wants to form a group to deal with anyone who sees the problem but not the problem itself! They want you to believe a lie that the rapid spread of this sin thoughout society is just “they were born that way” or “you have no cause for concern”, when we read that one in six boys are abused and we fight against forces in our own lives that are trying to convince our children they are homosexual and it’s perfectly ok! The constitution goes on to say the purpose is to “create a sense of human solidarity and concern for common good”. First, in a Catholic University the solidarity comes from common ground and that common ground is that God is real; Christ was sent to bring us to God’s grace and to help us overcome sin; and sin exists and should be avoided. Also common ground acknowledges that same sex attraction is a grave temptation to sin and not a good but a cross that is most easily overcome as every sin is overcome, at the outset. Second, it is in the common good that NO child or young person or adult label themselves by their sexual orientation but rather that they reject any temptation that may arise firmly and swiftly as the enemy to their soul that it is. There is NO human dignity in labelling oneself by a sexual orientation. There is nothing in Catholic teaching that would support labelling oneself by sexual orientation. Further, there is NO WAY that we would know a sexual orientation unless someone paraded it in front of us, so to try to make us look at someone and “KNOW” their sexuality is extremely offensive and anti-Catholic! We are among wolves here. We know that many orders, including the Holy Cross Fathers, have allowed homosexual men to be ordained. We know that John Paul II realized that that had been a mistake. We now have a battle by those running scared to legitimize what they should preach against. It is scandalous that some people must go to parishes where two men who admit to homosexual attraction are their priests! We are suffering greatly because of this sin and yet we tempt God’s patience. To recognize all the issues that need support in this disorder and to remove it from treatment by the psychiatric field but then to try to label those as “homophobic” who see a disorder is TOO MUCH. Christ reaches out with the Truth. He may do it in parables or straightforwardly, but if this group is formed it is reaching out with dishonesty.
Let the homosexuals join “Courage”, an organization of Catholics with homosexual inclinations, who decide to practice chastity.
...to equate homosexuality with alcoholism and drug addiction and on the same vein mention that IT can be CURED is to show ignorance of the issues at hand…we must remember that Christ came to show Humanity a Way of Life compatible with our Divine origin NO MATTER WHAT OUR HUMAN CONDITION IS…he who has NO SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE…judgemental hipocrisy is a malady diguised as moral rectitude forgetting the commandment to LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU which allows for Christian guidance and mutual admonition in our journey of self-discovery and growth in the Light of the Gospel
Reasonable article, but why not include the Catechism’s next paragraph, too? That paragaph encourages “respect, compassion, and sensitivity” and suggests that “unjust discrimination should be avoided.” Make no mistake, it’s gravely disordered. It doesn’t mean they’re not human. I don’t see anything that ND is doing as out of line with the Catechism.
Of course, the comments are great. If it were up to most of the commenters we would be excommunicating not only all homosexuals but virtually everyone affiliated with ND. I’ve got news for some of you: you don’t make the rules, the Bishop does and he already spoke. When you rail against ND, Bishop Rhoades, and other Catholic institutions you are putting yourself outside the broad tent of Catholicism and engaging in elitism. Have Faith! I know most of you do in your own spiritual practice, so why not have Faith that appropriate action will be taken if and when these types of institutions do step out of line?
Robert J. Walleston @
“I don’t understand why these people want to go to ND in the first place when it goes against who they are and what they practice. It is like Sandra Fluke going to Georgetown and wanting them to change for her not her change for them. Go to another school and free up space at ND.”
They go for the same reason why many perverts went into the priesthood. They went to corrupt.
Whoa! Thanks Pam. Maybe ND needs to form it’s own Catholic group for gays that will address the issue correctly. Lou
Fr. Cesar Guzman, so you deny that this is part of the culture of death? and you think feeding a destructive tendency is ok with the gospel? And labelling oneself by it? And working politically to remove it from the list of psychiatric disorders makes it not a psychiatric disorder? And that championing the truth of the teaching of our faith from those who would corrupt it is “hate”? And that while we would be scandalized by a priest living with a member of the opposite sex in a rectory we should not be scandalized by two homosexual priests living in the same rectory? And that Christ could heal anything but homosexual tendancies because this is just different from everything else in the whole world and nothing at all compares to it and His grace is not enough? Enough lies.
Rick, If you read my previous comment you should know that “if and when” already happened. Read the constitution of the group. It isn’t about helping them heal. It is about supporting them in getting us to support their lifestyle or labelling and choices (which they deny are choices at all.)
Hmmm. Seems like a good thing: something Jesus would do. Can’t help but be distrustful of ND. Don’t think we can call ND “the premier Catholic institution” in the country. Have to give that to Franciscan U in Steubenville and others. Hope this works. Would love to have confidence again in The Irish! They are the premier Catholic football team at least. (They will lose to the Tide however! Roll Tide!).
...dear Pam, it still amazes me how we can, to this day,TWIST words in order to subscribe to our own self=serving arguments…not long ago a man was crucified because a certain Roman governor twisted the words of an innocent man and stated “...so you call yourseelf a king?” Listen to the Message rather than hearing words postulating a position covenient to cover our own fears…All is possible with God and I cannot fear. even the Evil One,IF my faith is strong in the Lord…maybe if we humans cease playing God, Divine Intervention will have a chance in our world. Consider Mary’s Fiat in contrast to Sarah’s machinations…
To those who ask “what is a homosexual person?”: What is an American person or a French person? What is a white person or a black person? Using an adjective to describe someone does not reduce them to that adjective. The adjective tells you one thing about that person, not every thing. Some people may choose to reduce themselves to that one thing and some people may choose to reduce others to that one thing, but simple use of an adjective does not by itself reduce a person.
There is no need to recognize unions or associations of gay or lesbian etc. by a Catholic College. Will they recognize a Union of seekers of sex or a fraternity of thieves ? If Fr Jenkins and his college are interested in homosexuals,they should propagate the teachings of the Catholic Church at all opportunities. Hiding Catholic ideology and treating such moral diseases will not go together. Why are they so touchy when the sexual morality is discussed ? There is nothing to hide in Catholicism or in Jesus. Without fear Jesus and his Church’s teachings can be announce from the housetops
The mere fact that ND adopted the language of the GLBTQ shows that they are not serious about being Catholic. GLBTQ under any guise states by its very self identification as a political action group. Specifically it is about acting out one’s sexual desires/fantasies/fetishes and the like. This has nothing whatsoever to do with getting serious about moral virtue, but with sexual gratification. Regardless of a person’s sexual proclivities, the excellence of self control oriented toward the good of others is what should always stand first and foremost. If this “outreach” were really about truth in love. The whole approach would be drastically different, starting with an entirely different and orthodoxly Catholic name and agenda. ND, please get serious about real human health, growth, happiness, and joy. Stop the silliness. Walk with our Lord through the crucifixion and stand in His Resurrection. Don’t settle for anything less.
Well, Pam, you and I probably have more in common than different. Having said that, I disagree with both the alarmist tone and most of the substance of your previous post. Your statements are not so much in line with either the Catechism or Bishop Rhoades. The Catechism does not refer to homosexuality as “most easily overcome.” In fact, just the opposite. I’m not here to excuse it, but Christ does speak Truth. It’s clear anyone who has homosexual tendencies in your opinion is either lying or needs serious treatment to change back to “normal,” and certainly should not be eligible for ordination. I don’t agree with that. My understanding is that these tendencies are “deep-seated” with an unknown origin (straight from the Catechism) and certainly not to be easily dismissed as “most easily overcome.” They certainly can be overcome, and a priestly life of chastity in many cases might be an excellent solution (not for pedophiliac tendencies - clearly, that’s not going to work.) In turn, just as I would want someone to minister to me if I had a serious problem with rage and violence, I think it’s fair to offer ministries to people with these tendencies. I still have yet to see that this program at ND is doing something other than offering ministry to them. I trust that if it goes off the tracks Bishop Rhoades will say so. He already seems to be watching closely, so we’ll see how it plays out.
Richard @: “The mere fact that ND adopted the language of the GLBTQ shows that they are not serious about being Catholic.”
That was a given from the get-go.
The terms heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, transexual, polysexual, GLBTQ…are all terms that identify persons as objects of sexual desire in direct violation of God’s Commandment regarding lust and the sin of adultery, which is why such terms are not included in The Language of Love, The Word of God, to begin with.
If there is a constitution for this new group, certainly one would be able to tell if it is consistent with The Word of God Who’s transforming Love is all inclusive.
There is a difference between sinning, repenting and asking for God’s forgiveness through God’s Grace and Mercy while serving our penance, AND heresy, which denies the sin is a sin to begin with. It is that difference that makes all the difference. Dissent has been allowed to grow and flourish within Christ’s Church. If The Bishops will not put an end to the heresy (Catholic Canon 750), then Pope Benedict must. Those men and women who wish to overcome disordered inclinations, including disordered sexual inclinations, have the inherent right to receive the proper care and guidance that is necessary to heal their wounds and learn to develop healthy and Holy relationships and friendships that are grounded in authentic Love. If learning to develop healthy and Holy relationships that are grounded in authentic Love is not the goal of this organization to begin with, then this organization would be one that has exchanged The Truth for a lie. I do believe Father Jenkins’ desire is that this organization be consistent with The Word of Love Who desires only that which is Good for His beloved.
Fr. Cesar Guzman, Just looked up NCCNA and came up with a dissident “Catholic” Church. Is that what the initials after your name stand for? Nothing was twisted. Notice you didn’t answer the questions though. Do you believe as the Catholic Church does, that the push to normalize homosexual relations is part of the culture of death? Don’t know what your last line is saying? You believe you can succumb to Satan and Christ will still save you without you repenting and maybe even needing an exorcism? He told us differently. Paul and Peter are clear about this sin. Take the narrow road. The road is wide that leads to destruction. Those who uphold the faith aren’t playing God. They are trying to faithfully pass on the faith and protect souls from false teachers!
Rick, There is a specific agenda to alter the teaching of Jesus Christ. That would be apostasy. What is the proper reaction? Jesus threw over tables because the people were making His Father’s house “a den of thieves”. Seems like outrage would be appropriate when I see young men coaxed into a homosexual identification and then hear they are entering a seminary! Or when I read that a Catholic University is forming a group whose aim is to fight “homophobia” and support the homosexual identity? You took “most easily overcome” TOTALLY out of context. I said all sin or temptation “is most easily overcome” at the outset. That is completely in line with the Catholic Catechism and Catholic teaching and this is NO different. When we know something is wrong or out of bounds and we get a temptation to “just try it” or “think about what it would be like” or whatever the temptation might be, we make a choice. We run from the thought and distract ourselves with a positive activity or turn to Christ and meditate on Him or call up a friend and do something, but we DON’T entertain the temptation. Entertaining the temptation gives the enemy a foothold. This temptation is no different than any other in that regard. That is basic spiritual teaching. But even after the enemy has a foothold the temptation may be overcome, but it is harder. Today many kids are being forced to entertain temptations in schools or even in Catholic environments where the priests have lost their way and look at kids and ask them questions trying to get them to admit a temptation and then they feed on it. It is grave and destructive and predatory whether is is done as a well-meaning gesture or wickedly. The Catechism’s discription of homosexual tendency’s origins may be charitable but I have seen the grooming, seen the coercion, seen the beating down of self-esteem, seen the bribery, seen the put-downs and creation of fear or dread of the opposite sex. The tendencies you call “deep-seated” are sooo deep seated that if children and people in crisis were not being groomed the tendency would never appear! The number of people actually born with the disorder is negligible. As to homosexuals and the priesthood, that is scandalous!!!! The person who has taken on the label of homosexual is putting themselves in an occasion of sin living only with other men. On National Catholic Register blogs we have read from young men who are seminarians talking about how homosexual relations are encouraged as a bonding experience! I pray to God that is not true or is isolated incidents but Christ is HOLY. His priesthood is holy. Those who are chosen are supposed to be ABOVE reproach meaning no easily apparent disorder such as homosexuality! A holy man who struggles with his sexual identity should KNOW that in holiness and TRUTH they have a cross that eliminates them from priesthood. Priests will work long hours and at times get little emotional support and will be around young children and those who need a male role model. They will suffer and need consolation and if they fall, they will bring the Church with them as has ALREADY happened. Someone who has same sex attraction does not relate to women properly and they do not relate to men properly because they look at the two sexes from a disordered perspective. Yes they can be holy celibates and I pray they are or even better I pray that their FAITH is great enough that Christ can HEAL them of any temptation in this regard. As to wanting ministries for people who suffer with same-sex attraction, the Church has the group “Courage” that is supposed to lead those with this cross to God’s grace of healing or strength to bear the cross although even there, the Globe reported abuses of the trust in Boston. Notre Dame’s group however is not orientated at all, according to its Constitution to the healing of the individual but to holding on to the identity and forming alliances to protect individuals from anyone who might expect them to work to overcome the temptation to sin. If it is a temptation, it can be overcome. If you don’t believe that you don’t believe in Christ! Don’t know about your issues with rage and violence but I wonder if you’d enroll Christ in the ministry with his table tossing!
A Catholic school does not need a club that helps a student to identify with a disordered sexual desire.
The fact is, many have been conditioned to adopt the language that defines persons as objects of sexual desire. The question is, if there is a “constitution” for this new group, will it serve Christ or will it serve anti Christ? If the constitution is not consistent with The Word of God, it must be transformed in Lite of The Word of Love. To be a witness to Christ, one cannot misrepresent The Word of Love in private or in The Public Square, for Love requires desiring Salvation for one’s beloved. I believe that Father Jenkins desires Salvation, and thus God’s transforming Love, for all of us, including those who suffer with same sex sexual attractions and wish to overcome them.
God’s Saving Grace and Mercy are available to all persons who desire to be transformed , no one is excluded.
...dear Pam, it seems that my comments “pushed some buttons” since you decided to address and “attack” me and them personally. If you do not understand my last observation: “Consider Mary’s Fiat in contrast to Sarah’s machinations”, I suggest you do some research and meditation, as well, in Biblical studies, Salvation History, Apostolic Tradition and the spiritual journey of the Church Militant. I must say, though, that I do admire your dilettante polemic which I do rank highly among the same used by Zealots, Pharisees and Roman governors against a man “who ate with tax collectors and consorted with prostitutes and sinners”. Were I to adhere to such “defenses of faith” such a yours I would be first in line to pound the first nail to a crucified man, light the stake to exterminate a French girl dressed in a soldier’s armor, and condem as heretic a Pontiff who dared to “open” the windows of a Church. I believe that what ND is attempting is worth the “risk” in pastoral ministries in as much a “risk” the Early Church believed in witnessing by martyrdom…whatever happenned to Faith in the Holy Spirit to guide His Church…have we forgotten the Promise of Pentecost? Enough from me…may the Blessings of Christmas be with you all! Peace and Love FrCsar
Nancy D. There is a link to the “constitution” right in this article and it speaks of its main goal as an alliances in support of homosexuals against “aversive homophobia”, aversive means “against” and homophobia means “fear of homosexuals”. The word “homophobia” is a concoction of advocates of the gay lifestyle. They are turning what is a moral recognition of sin into a negative. They are calling it an unreasonable fear of same sex unions. It is very clear that this group is not teaching or promoting the lifestyle as a temptation to sin but seeking to protect the flaunting of the lifestyle and the temptation. Fr. Jenkins is promoting this constitution by endorsing this group. Whatever his motives, which God alone will judge, he is doing something destructive to all people of faith. I live in the Boston area and have seen how the “alliance” works. You have heard of Mayor Menino telling Chik Filet A they are not welcome in Boston because the owner proudly supported marriage as the union of a man and a woman. Mayor Menino dared to say Boston was “inclusive” and wouldn’t put up with that! He EXCLUDED people of faith from being welcome to do business in Boston. And he is supposed to be a Catholic! It gets worse than that. The alliance commits assaults on the emotions of those who believe this is a sin and seeks to distance the children from their parents beliefs and break up families. It plants suspicions between spouses and preys on insecurities. Schools in Boston read ELEMENTARY school students a story called “The Two Princes” of two men who fall in love and marry. A Lexington, MA couple who complained to the school that they were not told and allowed to remove their son from class were told they had no rights even after they took it to court here. The group sets up little scenarios against outspoken individuals where even Mother Teresa would look evil because everything is lies or innuendo or playing to the passions and the faith and Christian values are made to look like the bad guy. Priests participate in this without admitting it, with homilies that imply they are making parishioners more Christlike, when in fact they are silencing anyone who would speak up against abuses in the faith or the scandal of homosexuality in the priesthood, or questioning priests whose homilies do not seem to conform to gospel truth. They try to provoke anxiety or distress, dressing and acting flamboyantly as a homosexual would and waiting to ensare saying you judged but they aren’t really homosexual or you could never know even if they were. Christ is NOWHERE in this. He would NEVER use evil and manipulation and deceit and division to achieve His ends. The fruit is decreased Mass attendance, divorce, increased homosexuality, division among families, distrust among individuals, cattiness and mental abuse and all forms of misery. It is a sad state to try to beat people into submitting to an agenda of some powerful people that hurts us all. Innocence and beauty and love and kindness are mocked as naive, stupid, inane or hateful. I have come to believe it is a form of hate crime against believers and Fr. Jenkins, knowingly or not(and it is next to impossible to believe he does not know he is furthering the homosexual agenda here giving them inroads in the Catholic sphere), by endorsing a group that does not admit that the homosexual lifestyle is part of the culture of death and is a sinful inclination or does not write in its constitution as one of its main goals to lead the souls involved closer to Christ, is driving them further from Christ and helping the homosexual agenda. God protect us. Pray the rosary. God bless you as you try to navigate all this with so much apparant love.
We are called to be sensitive to the challenges homosexuals face when Holy Mother Church asks them to live celibate lives. All human beings need friendship and support. May the Holy Spirit guide the students and faculty of Notre Dame as they lay the foundations of this new organization. Gay outreach is needed. So is the affirmation of moral truths.
Fr. Cesar, You still didn’t answer the questions posed to you. I will take it that you are not a Catholic in good standing. Very dishonest of you but typical of those who do not want to come to Christ’s Truth, only their own. You can’t answer the questions without realizing you are NOT following Christ, but your own way. Don’t know what your fixation with Sara and Mary is. Sara laughed at the thought that she would conceive in her old age and Mary believed that she would bear a son but wasn’t sure how it was supposed to transpire. Has nothing to do with any of this. If your logic is that a homosexual can be a good priest because God can work miracles, I would say in this case the miracle would have to come first and the priesthood after. It would be like making Eve a priest and saying God can overcome her susceptibility to deception. His ability to work miracles always healed those He chose first. Look at Matthew, Zaccheus and Mary Magdalene. Christ spoke the Truth to every sinner He sat with. He did not accomodate any sinner’s sin but spoke to them of repentance and healing. He spoke to the tax collectors and sinners of their life of dissolution and welcomed them BACK to the life of the Father. To the rich young man He asked him to give away his riches and follow him and when he didn’t he let him go. Christ let every follower desert Him when He said His body was real food and His blood was real drink and they DIDN’T UNDERSTAND. Even though He could have tried to hold on to them until they did, HE chose to let them go. Even then He would NOT compromise the TRUTH. He even told Peter he would betray Him and said to him at one point, “Get behind me Satan” when Peter tried to convince Jesus to avoid Jerusalem and the Cross. Jesus ALWAYS spoke the truth to a sinner and let God the Father take care of the rest. The Holy Spirit is God and like God He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The sin that calls out to God for vengeance is still the sin that calls out to God for vengeance. That unscrupulous power brokers or unfaithful men manipulate events and call them “the Holy Spirit” does not make it so. You are aware of the vision of Pope Leo? Satan has had a hundred years to wreak havoc. The inspired Word of God speaks clearly about this sin. As to the Pope allowing ordination of homosexuals, HE said it was a mistake. We have seen the fruit. We live with it still. The constitution of the GLBT group at Notre Dame not only avoids facing the Truth, but makes those who believe it the enemy - saying, in essence, they need an alliance against people who think the lifestyle is sinful. It is you who are already pounding nails into the hands of Christ at the expense of our children, our families, our marriages and these young peoples souls. Christ showed us the way. Lovingly speak the Truth and allow them to accept or reject it. When they reject it you do NOT form a group that enables them to live a lie. By not following Christ’s example and way you are making yourselves gods. This groups constitution indicates they want members who reject Catholic teaching. That isn’t taking a “risk”, that is supporting a lie.
...Blessings to you, Pam….may your Journey towards Truth be a bitter-sweet road…and may the Holy Spirti enlighten your Way always…
Notre Dame does not need a club supportive of homosexuals and their friends.
There is already in place the organization of Catholics who recognize their inclinations, and desire help in overcoming them.
http://www.couragerc.net/
Pam ...Contrary to Fr. Guzman’s implication (by diversion), it is in fact you who have “pushed some buttons”. Moreover, you have apparently struck a very sensitive raw nerve. God Bless you for your stalwart defense our Catholic faith. The upper hand (and truth) is to your advantage. You are wielding it courageously and quite convincingly.
I contacted the USCCB over four years ago and was told that the erroneous “Always Our Children” was to be removed from their website. The USCCB has yet to remove this document even though it is not consistent with Catholic Doctrine, was written by persons who dissent from Catholic Doctrine, and implies that sexual inclinations are immutable. I blame the USCCB for failing to address this issue in light of our Catholic Faith, and for making it appear that “Always Our Children” is consistent with our Catholic Faith, thus misrepresenting Catholic Teaching on this issue, and denying many the adequate care and guidance one would expect from those who are suppose to be shepherding our children, not leading them astray.
Pam, your passion is, indeed, admirable. I won’t continue too much of a back and forth but I did want to comment one last time. I believe you may be equating homosexuality (or same-sex attraction, if you like) with pedophilia. The very serious problem in the Church has been with pedophilia. That’s not to say that same-sex attraction isn’t a problem in some seminaries; as is opposite-sex attraction, from what I understand. But pedophiliac priests and the Bishops who covered their tracks are, without a doubt, the more serious internal Church problem.
Having said that, again I believe you and I have more in common than separate (belief that temptation and sin can be overcome, belief in Christ and the Church as an extension of Him to be the way to Salvation). It’s unfortunate you have to throw some vaguely personal attacks in there (e.g, questioning whether I’d “enroll” Christ; suggetsting “if you don’t believe that, you don’t believe in Christ” as insinuating that I don’t even though I never said anything to the contrary.) I think these statements detract from your otherwise passionate call to Christ. I’m pretty firm on my own path. I’m fairly comfortable that Christ will determine if I’m on the right path or not. With all due respect, knowing only some impersonal interactions in a combox does not place you in a position to be my Spiritual Director.
As for the issue at hand, I was not familiar with Courage and I appreciated the link that another commenter posted. I myself don’t find that same-sex attraction calls for the level of alarm that it often gets from people. I think the divorce rate among self-identified Catholics, lack of participation in the Sacraments by self-identified Catholics, and lack of education and instruction about the importance of daily prayer among the faithful are all topics that are of much greater significance and importance. And if there are ministries that support prayer life among same-sex attracted people then they have a much greater likelihood of coming to an understanding and appreciation for the call to chastity. That’s my two cents, and I’m not sure what’s so controvercial about it. There are some in the same-sex attracted community who are extremists and will, indeed, push the agenda to the limits and of course that needs to be addressed. Beyond the extremists, there are other issues that I wish would get more discussion.
Merry Christmas, everyone, in the truests sense of those words.
If there is no Truth of Love, The Word of God Made Flesh, then everything becomes permissible.
Leslie R. I don’t think many people realize the roadblocks groups like this one at Notre Dame put in front of others to be sensitive and give comfort and support. This alliance manifests itself as a WALL between the person with same sex attraction and the Catholic or persons who recognize the attraction as a temptation to sin. Those who suffer same sex attraction are made to believe they are victims of our beliefs, that speaking about the issue is willfully inflicting harm, that we are the enemy and we really don’t love THEM when in fact we love THEM very much and seek to help them recognize the spiritual battle. They are lead to believe if we really loved them we would love their attraction as well. The real goal is to silence Truth by spinning opinion to see learning truth as inflicting pain. Our interactions are always put in the worst light, with no presumption of good will or search for truth and the person who suffers from same sex attraction is supported in their temptation and feelings of victimhood and helped in finding partners or like-minded friends. The Truth of Christ’s power and love to overcome is NOT welcome no matter how gradually or lovingly addressed. Interaction at all is considered an assault so I don’t see how, until the constitution changes, this group can meet any of your hopes and prayers. We are being divided.
Rick, Sad to see that you consider a genuine question as an attack. The question about enrolling Christ is serious and not a vague personal attack, as is the statement that if you, (meaning anyone who calls themselves Christian), don’t believe Christ can give us the grace to overcome every kind of temptation you don’t believe in Christ but in someone or thing less than Christ. His Grace is real but we need to ask for it and constantly seek it and wait for it and nurture it when it is given. And righteous anger is not a sin because Christ was sinless, but there is a segment of society that would try to silence dissent from their agenda by making even that forbidden. And no, I am not talking about just pedophilia. The fruit of the sin of same sex attraction is harmful. The grooming is happening to society as a whole and to people of all ages ( and as a mother I finding it exceedingly troubling that even the Church tries to distinguish between seducing children vs. seducing teenagers since to any mother they are still a child), as is the bribery and coercion and ego inflating and manipulation. And while everyone would be rightly scandalized if a heterosexual man and woman shared a rectory outside of marriage, we are castigated for being scandalized that two homosexual men share a rectory or that they are priests because they struggle with a moral disorder. On its face it harms the faith, diminishes trust, causes many concerns. Sin is sin but some sins are more shocking because they are against the natural order. And this is one of them. The complimentarity of men and women, the assault on true friendship between members of the same sex and the awkwardness and negative thoughts that are now an issue when two people of the same sex have a healthy friendship, the barriers between male/female relationships and put downs of the opposite sex, the sexualization of society and every interaction, these are some of the very serious problems that make up the grave consequences of this sin. That a seminarian is unfaithful with a member of the opposite sex should also be a sign they are not called to Holy Orders. There is a grace with the call and that grace makes celibacy possible and sexual labelling abhorrent and like any grace it needs to be nourished and not taken for granted. None of us is evil because we struggle with temptation but we are called to struggle against it and seek to overcome it and believe that God will answer us. I pray you receive that grace. It can come in an instant and I hope you believe (one way of believing is to act as though the grace has already been received. If you were healed, how would you live and use your time? God bless
Kudos to you, Rick…your commentaries show astute observarions of the present maladies facing our Faith-communities today. Needles to say these were also quite prevalent during Our Lord’s earthly existence when He showed us The Way (which champions humility) in the midst of political wars, righteous and religious hypocrisy, pedophilia, temple prostitution, abortions, divoreces, racial and social injustices, etc. Keep the Faith and thank you for your well balanced comments. Many Blessings, FrCsar
This Grace is reflected in the virtue of Chastity which sees the other not as an object of sexual desire, but as a human person, created in The Image of God, to be treated with respect and Dignity, as we live our lives in Loving relationship as husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters…not as heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals, polysexuals…which demeans the personal and relational essence of the human person called to reflect authentic Love.
@Leslie R. [“Gay outreach is needed.”] Is that the real solution? Please define outreach. Does your parish or diocese offer outreach to straight singles in how to remain celibate? Of course not. Sexual activity for the unmarried is a sin be one gay or straight and Romans 1 condemns homosexuality. If one follows Christ, what’s so difficult for someone to keep their pants on? I’m not buying this baloney about the need to be sensitive over this issue. What gay people in church want is to have their sin explained rather than condemned. Repentence is not in their lexicon.
I repeat, The USCCB document, Always Our Children, is, in fact, a manipulation of The Word of God, and any bishop who claims this document is consistent with The Word of God, The Truth of Love, and that God Has ordered us according to sexual orientation, in direct violation of God’s Own Commandment regarding lust and the sin of adultery, denies the personal and relational inherent essence of the human person, called to communion with God, as a reflection of Love, from The Beginning. Who, among The Bishops believe The Word of God Is The Word of God, and who believes the counterfeit, the lie that denies the personal and relational essence of the human person, from The Beginning?
Do you have the courage to witness to The Truth, or have you been deceived by the counterfeit? Those who walk in The Spirit of Love, believe that any act, including any sexual act, that demeans our inherent Dignity as human persons, is not an act of Love. The Line has been drawn in The Sand, are you with Christ or are you against Him? I Pray you choose Life.
Urgh… keep allowing myself to be drawn into this conversation.
Nancy. You clearly love God. That’s great. I do, too. As does Pam, as far as I can tell. But it does not seem wildly unimaginable that we all love God and have different approaches to this topic. None of us have stopped short of considering same sex acts sinful. None of us have endorsed same sex acts as acceptable, or helpful. But unlike you and Pam, I don’t believe it is my place to decide where that line is drawn. I don’t think having a conversation with a person in a same-sex relationship about how they deal with it and still try to have a prayer life; how they struggle with guilt and shame of it; how they want to be more fully in communion with Christ despite the inherent sin and temptation they struggle with is somehow wrong. I just don’t see it. Casting Crowns comment that repentance is not in their lexicon makes me wonder if Casting Crowns has ever even met a homosexual person. It’s easy to dehumanize people when we lump them all into a group with one singular agenda. My experience is that there are many people with same sex attraction who have a desire to be more fully in Communion with God, and I repeat that my belief, which comes directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, is that engaging these folks in discussions about how to do that is not somehow crossing a line into the “anti-Christ” territory. Of course not everyone is going to hear these things. In that case, my job is not to condemn them to Hell. Either they’ll figure it out or they won’t. EVen if they don’t, getting to know people on a human level allows me to pray for them all the more fervently. If you want to shut out same-sex attracted people out of your lives and/or scream at them for being anti-Christs, have at it. But don’t delude yourself into thinking that this is the most Christian response to the situation. There is a difference between endorsing an action (which, in this case, I don’t) and having compassion for those committing it (which I try to.) Perhaps we should go back to the age of Stoning? Or round up all same sex attracted individuals and have them live in colonies? Anything to get them away from potentially corrupting all us pure souls. That seems to be the logical conclusion of Casting Crowns approach. I don’t buy it. I’ve known too many people who sincerely struggle with the issue to take that kind of approach.
OK, really, I’m going to try to make this my last word on the issue. I know I’m not really eliciting any more compassion as it is. Please, just go read and reflect on the Catechism’s statements about the issue. Look at Courage’s website. Since someone posted it I have looked around it and am very impressed with it; it is a good example of a compassionate, caring, yet firm stance on the subject. I wish everyone well.
Rick, Speaking the truth is not appointing oneself your Spiritual Director. You seem to be exhibiting an unhealthy inclination to make it about you as opposed to citing what God and the Church actually teach or taking things in the most defensive context as opposed to assuming the love. And Fr. Cesar Guzman, neither is it a lack of humility. Humility is a recognition of our nothingness and God’s greatness. It is not a lack of humility to speak God’s truth when it is being questioned. And it is not humility to be told the truth and say, “Well, I’m pretty firm on my OWN (emphasis added) path.” And,(in all love and sincerity),if Christ is going to make corrections in your life, how do you expect them to occur? A combox post may be His way to you (and me and anyone reading). If today you hear his voice, harden not your hearts. Merry Christmas. Enjoy
If you read my posts clearly, it’s evident that my heart is as hard as stone.
@Rick: So what makes you deserving of “special class” treatment over a straight person who also struggles with sexual purity? Because so many priests are gay, the church has created an enablement culture which clouds the issue of what God calls sin. The message of the gospel is not condemnation, but forgiveness to the penitent. For many, though, acceptance by the church while remaining in sin is what people really want. Gay or straight, validation of one’s sinful behavior runs contrary to the Bible. Gay people are not that special,—so get over yourselves.
Homosexuals in the Catholic clergy is one of the main problems the Catholic Church faces.
In many cases, they try to use their position of trust to legitimize perverted homosexual behavior.
That the hierarchic has not purged these people is something they will be held accountable for in the hereafter.
Rick, You are doing alot of judging in your post, there. It’s a very big leap you take if you call me saying the constitution of the Notre Dame group is enabling and affirming homosexual identity and putting up a wall to true help to then concluding I do not have compassion or wouldn’t speak to someone who suffers with same sex attraction and try to help them. That is slanderous. Same with ND’s posts. We aren’t drawing any lines. God drew the lines already. You want to ignore it but it has already been drawn. You and others would like to move it, but it ain’t goin’ nowhere. It is a spiritually reality which I’ve mentioned before. You can’t keep sinning a little. You can’t claim a sin as your identity and hope to have real healing. You can’t entertain temptations and keep them as temptations because eventually you will act on them. There is no standing in the same place in spiritual life. You are either drawing closer to God or getting further away. Sin increases if it is not put in check. Love increases if it is released. We see it in our everyday lives and all around us. Any Christian would love to help anyone who struggles with a sin gain the faith and grace to overcome it. We can just see that that is NOT what is going on with this group. I live among these “alliances” in Boston. It is not about healing. The group strengthens the bond between the soul and the sin and alienates the soul from those who would help them heal. Whether or not your heart is made of stone, we can leave to God and you.
Rick…Once again…kudos to your well-balanced and most Christian approach ...even the Christ said not to throw “pearls” to pigs…may you (and I)_be on the right-hand of the Crucified Man when these sanctimonious and self-appointed “righteous defenders of the Faith” cast the first stone…“Where Charity and Love prevails, there God is Ever found…” Peace….FrCsar
Just as the women who was caught in the sin of adultery, to go and sin no more is to overcome your inclination to commit adultery by recognizing the act of adultery does not reflect Love, and is thus anti Christ.
I see/read striking similarities herein, the sentiments of fellow Catholics with those who question the fullness of Truth, yet deny the Foundation of the answer… (CNN/Piers Morgan) “We’re in a modern age where if you start to use that kind of language, if you brand sections of the community sinners because you believe that’s what the Bible has told you to say, you are demonizing these people. And I find that hard to deal with…But you and I know the Bible is, in many places a flawed document…the Bible and the Constitution were well intentioned, but they are basically inherently flawed…Hence the need to amend it…My point to you about gay rights, for example, it’s time for an amendment to the Bible ... a new Bible.” (Piers Morgan - Christmas Eve interview with Pastor Rick Warren - topic: Homosexuality, gay marriage). So what say you, fellow Catholics ... should the Church be more tolerant and accepting of sin? Should the Word of God be amended? Should we Catholics be satisfied with mere partial truth? If we become that complacent, we are then deserving of everything but Truth. The consequences of a compromised faith is a deadly serious matter. Beliefs and issues defined are changing within the Church hierarchy and clergy ...and they are not healthy.
Fr. Guzman and/or Rick ...As Nancy D. put it quite succinctly, would you care to elaborate on or flirt with the meaning of Christ’s word, “Go, and sin no more”.
@Mr. Guzman: Assuming you are a Catholic Priest, people like you are the problem. You are among the clergy who cherry pick gospel passages which make you comfortable with your sin while ignoring the results of sin. You seem more like the High Priest Caiaphas to whom Jesus had nothing to say —and for good reason. Jesus already knew Caiaphas wasn’t interested in having his sins forgiven.
To Rick and Casting Crowns and whoever has not checked, if you look up the initials after Fr. Guzman’s name you will find that he is not a Catholic priest at all. I asked him about this in an earlier post here and per usual he didn’t answer, but the group with those initials (NCCNA) has broken with the Church. So Rick, consider the source.
Judging (yes, judging), by my God given ability to discern (a certain unalienable right) the example, the words, and the avoidance by “Fr.” Cesar Guzman to address or answer direct, rational and reasonable questions, the NCCNA (National Catholic Church of North America) is as much a questionable, agenda driven, testimony of a “consequences be damned - do it if it feels good” faith . Taking the name “Catholic” and having it applied to ones credentials, a website, and to the building where this religion practices it’s loose criteria, may be quite attractive to the human person seeking a concept, a faith, that places insurmountable distance between the self and the Truth, it will remain, nonetheless, a church of pharisaic leaders that will move to petition one another and amend the Word of God to fit an untruth. At their info page, what is far more disturbing than what is stated, is what is being intentionally omitted. In more simple terms, withholding the Truth.
1. As I’ve stated before, everything I believe about homosexuality (or same sex attraction, or whatever you want to call it) is in the CCC. Unlike most of you, I don’t gloss over paragraph 2358. I have typed nothing, so far as I can tell, inconsistent with anything in the Catechism regarding this topic.
2. I have several homosexual friends. I do not endorse their homosexuality. But I don’t believe I’m called to “unfriend” them either. For almost all of them, with only 1 or 2 exceptions, it has been a very difficult life. And, no, it has not been a choice for them either. I can’t say whether they were “born with it” or not, but “deep-seeded” (CCC’s words) would indicate to me that it isn’t entirely a choice, either. In fact, in several cases it’s the opposite: they wholly wish this was not their cross to bear and if they could choose they would most certainly not be attracted to members of their own sex. (Simcha Fisher wrote a great article on here about friendship not too long ago - highly recommended.)
3. “Go, and sin no more.” I go to Confession on a regular basis in order to try to do that. I would certainly encourage (and have done so)someone who is struggling with same sex attraction to do the same and to figure out how to live a chaste life, IF THEY ASK ME. Most of them are not Catholic, but even so friends have often asked me about church teaching, chastity, etc. Because I’m their friend, they feel comfortable asking me about these things, and I feel comfortable talking to them about it. I guess when I met them and found out they were gay I could have shut them down, shunned them, refused to speak any further with them, etc. But I didn’t. I understand most of you disagree, but I can still be friends with someone that I disagree with even on some very fundamental things. Oh… and I actually listened. To their experience, their struggle, their plans. That is usually important in a friendship.
4. I agree with Piers Morgan on one thing only: gay people are here, living among us, and that puts us in a position of deciding whether we want to engage them, and if so, how. My choice is to engage them just like I would any other human being: on a friendly, caring, compassionate level. And when the time is right or when the conversation comes up (and it does - it’s hard to know me and not know I’m Catholic, and a regularly practicing one at that) share information about the Church’s beliefs. That’s why I keep saying Pam and I agree more than we disagree. Our fundamental beliefs about same sex attraction are the same. Our approach to dealing with people who struggle with it are very different.
5. I don’t know Fr Guzman and my suspicion is that we probably fundamentally don’t see eye to eye, but I don’t really know. It’s pretty obvious I’ve already been lumped in with him in most readers’ eyes despite knowing nothing about him and having never had an interaction with him in my life.
Unfortunately, some of my friends have had an inclination towards engaging in a sexual relationship outside their Marriage and some have acted upon it. I am sad to see so many of my friends Marriages and Families become broken. However, I do not identify my friends according to their disordered sexual inclinations, nor do I encourage them in their disordered inclinations, I Pray they overcome them, for their sake, and the sake of their families.
Rick, First, I have not lumped you with Fr. Guzman but am warning of the traits in his posts that reveal disingenuousness, deception and other marks of following the wrong father. Second, while not ignoring what the Catechism says that this is deep seated in some individuals, you must be aware that failure to admonish the sinner or warn them of flirting with the temptation, is a failure to Christ and His Church. Waiting til they ask is waiting too long. If someone were going to binge drink in front of you or told you of their plans to steal or commit adultery, but didn’t ask your opinion, would you stay quiet? The spread of the lifestyle happens by well-meaning indifference and misguided compassion. We unfortunately disagree that this lifestyle is not a choice. Every man and woman struggles with his/her sexual drive at one point in their life. “Do I follow the teaching of Christ or walk away?” Many walk away. Still, many receive the grace to return and repent of the lack of faith or desire to have followed Christ. This is no different in that respect but it is different in that it carries an even greater harm. I agree that it is often a choice made under coercion, duress,abuse, grooming, greed, the passions, despair, loss of hope and confidence - all of which we as a society enable and therefore share in the fault. And all of which may mitigate the culpability of the sinner, but it does not make any of it less harmful to us all. And I agree that we are to treat each other with love as Christ demands of us. I am known to see the lifestyle as a sin and the nursing of the temptation as a sin, so before I even meet anyone it is assumed, as you do, that I would shun or dislike the person. I do not. But if being clear about the unacceptability of the lifestyle has shut off the chance of friendship, it wasn’t by my doing. It is because the person is not ready to hear the truth. Still I act with love and find more often than not that the gulf which they do not want to bridge makes both parties, me and them, think. Jesus allowed this gulf to exist and let the Father work. To me it seems you are saying God doesn’t have it right. He should have let the rich young man hold on to his wealth and let him follow Him with his wealth. He should have gone after the prodigal son or accepted the rejection of Christ’s assertion that His body was real food and His blood was real drink and held on to the thousands who walked away from Him . He shouldn’t have spoken of a life wasted in dissipation when He ate with Matthew and the tax collectors. It is in the gulf that prayer happens and grace is received. If there is no gulf, no examination of what our actions bring about, there is a human tendency not to pray or even consider the consequences. Again, I cannot restate it enough. I have seen the children labelled or groomed into this lifestyle, the young women and men coerced or seduced into it by people they should have been able to trust, the abuse of authority etc. This is NOT just how someone is born although there may be a slight minority that are born that way. Children, marriage and families are at risk and under attack.
“...although there may be a slight minority that are born that way.”
Pam, born what way? How exactly is someone born according to sexual attraction?
With regard to invoking the sole CCC paragraph, 2358 and it’s relevance to this discussion and Notre Dame’s leanings to secularism; The foundation of it’s context (The Sixth Commandment - Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery) are the preceding paragraphs, 2331 through 2357, with it’s completion in the following and final paragraph, 2359.
NAncy D, I agree with you post wholeheartedly. Pam, we are on the same side, but in our approach toward people with same-sex attraction we’ll just have to disagree. Just one correction, though: God has it perfectly right. He and He alone will determine what happens to all us souls. I can see that you think that allowing my friendships with gay people (and Mormons, and Baptists, and atheists, and lapsed Catholics) to continue means I am somehow endorsing the behavior and beliefs of those groups. Not sure what to say to you other than: I don’t. I’m familiar with the gulf you speak of; I experience it in my life, too. It creates opportunities for teaching, correction (esp about misconceptions about the Church), and conversation.
I think the bottom line is this: We agree that there are serious threats to the Church. We do NOT agree that this is one of the more serious threats. In my humble opinion, there are much greater threats to the Church. Let’s face it: the number of gay people is relatively small. The number of gay Catholic people is extremely small. The number of practicing Catholics using contraception and getting divorced is HUGE! The number of nominal Catholics who don’t even understand things like transubstantiation is huge. Those are things I can start to get passionate about.
I’ll own one last thing: I like to have the last word. I’ve been accused of it before, and I’m almost sorry I’ve kept it going this long. But I sincerely appreciate the back-and-forth. It is challenging and helpful. Peace to you, Pam, and to everyone who has been commenting. I wish you the best, and I’ll certainly be reading other posts, even if not commenting.
Rick, You can’t say “God has it perfectly right” and then continue to act as you do. You are in essence saying that you know you’re wrong and you are going to do things your way anyway. Again you show that either you didn’t read my post or only wish to distort it. So you by doing that, you show that you are indeed following the wrong father on this issue. I already stated that it is not a lack of willingness to be friends with someone. It is the responsibility to speak God’s truth that determines if the deep friendship forms or continues. Some people can hear it and be friends, some can not. That is God working through truth. And Christ was clear that those who heal in His name are “with us” so like your other father it appears you wish to divide Christians by drawing in another reason for division when we should be sharing truth. There may indeed be some with whom I would not be friends but there are many with whom I could be. Stick to the issue at hand. You are choosing man over God. If God has it right, then you would follow Jesus’ example in the parables I mentionned or His teaching on brotherly correction MT 18:15-18, which says if your brother does something wrong speak to the person one on one(not wait til they ask for your opinion). If they don’t listen, approach them with another. Then report it to the Church and then (Christ’s words, not mine), “Treat them like a gentile or a tax collector.” Now if we follow Christ’s teaching through Paul that means as a Christian to treat those who disagree with the teaching of Christ with respect, but NOT to love them as openly or unreservedly as we love fellow Christians. We do love them as souls who Christ would like perhaps to draw to Himself, seeking their good, but in humility we recognize that they may be children of the other father and only God knows that so we must guard His truth and our love and fidelity to Christ. There is a gap. It is the pure, unsexualized love of Christians transformed through conversion, that should be showered on fellow Christians- those who won’t read a big smile and a warm hug as a come on, but will recognize it as an expression of the love of the Father for us all and as a sign of the joy of being in the presence of a fellow follower of Christ. The same love that had Christ in the upper room with men who walked away from families with women who walked away to serve Christ. Sadly, this issue of homosexuality, (which, like a son of the other father you try to grossly minimize despite the ravages to our country and our families and our faith and general morality), has made the necessary and beautiful warmth that should naturally flow between Christians unwelcome. (See the guidelines that have been promulgated to protect children in the Church.) This one sin alone has made every Christian a suspected pedophile or groomer in his own Church. That is major devastation to the trust and faith and love God wants in His Church. It has created a “poverty”, as Mother Teresa labelled it, where what is beautiful is made to appear filthy and what is pure is called impure. Children, priests, adults are all afraid to be hugged or share an outward sign of God’s love, yet they need this love and are repressing it. Children who needed that special friendship from a teacher that supported their lives don’t get it. Adults may not be one on one with a child EVER. In my generation many little lost souls hung around after school with a special teacher and “helped” them while they soaked up the love and lessons and acceptance that went along with it. All this is lost. All because of same sex attraction. So our environment is more sterile and cautious and unwelcoming and perverse because the act of being loving is now an occasion of sin causing gossip and scandal and innuendo. Worst of all, it is witnessing this incredible love of one Christian for another overflowing into loving actions that will draw others to Christ and it has been forbidden. “See how they love ONE ANOTHER.” You can try to throw other sins up there, but none compare. That people divorce is a consequence of this sin and others. The sin of homosexual relations undermines the family and divides it and increases divorce. That people use birth control is an unwillingness to carry the cross, to trust in God, to live by faith, but it is not aa unnatural a sin and it never created the harm that this sin has caused but the selfishness or fear within it are increased when this sin is accepted. That people don’t understand transubstantiation? Really? There are probably even some saints who took it only on faith and that is a matter that should and can be corrected from the pulpit. In 1John 3:1-6 We learn that we all have work to do. And it’s serious: “whoever treasures this hope of Him purifies himself, to be as pure as He is….He appeared to take sins away. No one who remains in Him sins.”
Nancy D: I said “may” because I’m not sure anyone is, but having seen many anomalies in life, there may be one that is a combination of chemical and psychological and physical or whatever that results in this same sex attraction. I have not known anyone that was born homosexual and I have known many people who became homosexual, but that doesn’t mean that God didn’t create someone that way. I agree with you that there are “perfect storms” out there (actually being willfully created at times) that are causing many souls to believe they are homosexual and many think it is from birth.
Pam, we have God’s Own Testimony that we have not been ordered according to sexual orientation, we are male and female, husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters…
To create someone as an object of sexual desire would be a perversion of Love.
Nancy D. I have read the new testament several times to try to be sure I was not going by what I “remembered” or what I “thought” on this issue. It became clear reading the gospels that this issue was so outside of the spectrum of what Christ expected of His followers, that He didn’t feel it needed to be addressed. Everyone was on the same page. Paul was horrified by a man marrying his stepmother. And the solution was to expel them from the community. How tame in comparison to this. But Jesus must have addressed this issue with the Apostles because in their letters Paul and Peter and other writers make reference “to being handed over to the flesh” and they speak in amazingly similar terms about the sinfulness of homosexual relations. This is a spiritual ill more than a physical one and I have seen our society lie to themselves in a myriad of ways about the issue. I have seen so many aspects of the sinfulness of homosexuality and its destructive affect on true love and the soul and the physical and emotional well-being of individuals and family and society and our Church. It is to the extent now that the Word of God, the Bible, is under attack, is being “retranslated”, to narrow any wrongdoing in homosexual relations. True love starts with a right relationship with God. And that can’t occur in a homosexual relationship, nor in nursing a temptation to homosexual tendencies. It is true that all God creates is good and that any deformities or defects are a result of sin and not God’s will unless they demonstrate His will to punish or to draw love. If, and I agree with you it is unlikely, in the best case God created someone with this orientation to draw love, (whatever we do to the least….), the person would respond to the love and be healed. They would be an instrument used to demonstrate God’s healing power as Jesus explained to the man in the gospel who asked,“Is this because of my sin or the sin of my parents?” And Jesus answered it was to glorify God’s NAME! The sinner would not remain in sin. The temptation(whatever it is) would turn from something appealing to something that is offensive or dispicable to the soul that comes to know and encounter Christ’s grace in prayer or in the love of his fellow man - in short in Christ’s healing power. At the very least it would lose all hold on the soul. That has been the experience of many saints I have read and I have to say it has been my own experience as well when I have tried to overcome a sin. Now I go to Mass and hear from the pulpit a mixed message that leads souls astray. Or I listen to liberal leaders and here the same falsehood. It is the misconstruction or revamping of “dignity” to suit an agenda. “To give dignity” has become equated with accepting homosexual relations or accepting that many people label themselves as homosexual and are at peace with that (some of whom are our priests who share rectories together, another scandal). The sin has to be rejected. The temptation to sin has to be rejected. There is no dignity in any of us apart from our dignity as children of God. If we have rejected Him and His Word as passed down through the Apostles, we have rejected our dignity. He alone is the source of any dignity we might have or feel “entitled” to. So many people have been misled by this. We need alot of love and alot of prayers and alot of strenght and courage to stand for the Truth as God’s wants us to.
How ironic that there is an ad talking about the mainstream media distorting the truth and hurting our nation and some in the National Catholic Register trying to justify or enabling accepting homosexual relations. And my posts being withheld as “spam”.
Thank you Pam, for continuing to uphold the foundation of the Catholic Church. The great fortunate in this continuing discussion is that the overwhelming majority of the words in the defense of the Church’s teaching have come directly from the laity. The clergy (aided by a clergy deceptor) appear to have opted out of defending the very Faith of their Ordination. That may or may not be intentional. Nonetheless, their absence speaks volumes about the dangerous Liberal influence within the Catholic Church.
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