This is a dumb question.  Not meaning to be cynical, we have many gay priests.

If the Catholic Church would like to discourage the growing perception that it’s an LGBT-hating institution, they could start by getting rid of the opening section of the Catechism’s teachings on homosexuality (CCC2357).  Teaching that loving, committed same-gender couples are guilty of “acts of grave depravity,” and justifying that view using scriptures that are relevant only if you equate homosexuals with rapists, prostitutes, and pedophiles, present a picture that is hard to interpret any other way than as hateful ... and horribly out of touch with reality.

I remember a story about a Priest, killed on 9/11 in USA Today.  The story talked about his heroic efforts at the scene for one paragraph.  The story went on for at least ten more paragraphs, concerned about his sexuality.  This Priest had been asked about this, and he replied; ” I’ve never had sex with anyone, so I honestly don’t know if I’m gay.”  USAToday could not accept that answer.  I didn’t read that newspaper for ten years and I still feel guilty when I read oit now.  What a rag!

It may or may not be a good question, but it’s one people are asking, or think they know the answer to.

In answer to Gene’s comment, in my humble opinion anyway, a gay priest is only problematic if he chooses to not live the honourable and chaste life he vowed to live.  I would much sooner receive the sacraments from the chaste priest with same-sex attractions than from the one who fornicates with women, with or without the use of contraception.  My big question for society in general is this:  When did “I don’t agree with you” and “I hate you” become synonymous?

I’m reminded of a commentator on a Southern Baptist website who wrote: I can’t reconcile how someone could feel he or she was born with strong homosexual feelings, love Christ and yet take on the limitations of what seem to me to be straightforward biblical teachings. That’s agonizing, and I don’t really understand it.’

And this is the weird thing: ‘Straighforward biblical teachings’ should at least be understandable to the average person. So often I hear it said, ‘our ways are not God’s ways,’ as if God were some sort of inscrutable alien being.

Consider The Golden Rule: We do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Put all the religious dogma and ritual aside, and this is what our laws boil down to. We don’t lie or bear false witness because we won’t want people to lie to us. We don’t steal from other people because we do not want people stealing from us. We don’t betray the trust of our spouses because we wouldn’t want them doing the same to us. Same goes for killing and a variety of other ‘bad’ behaviors.

And yet somehow there seems to be this sheepish adherence to a double standard for Gay and Straight people. If you’re Straight, it’s all so wonderful to be able to find a compatible person of the opposite sex, court and get engaged and marry and live happily ever after. But if you’re Gay, all of that is completely out of the question. Don’t even bother trying to find a compatible person. Lesbians and Gay men are precluded from any hope for romance or commitment. Gay people are simply told: Gosh, sorry about that. You make us uncomfortable; acknowledging your existence means we might have to revise what we’ve been teaching all these years - meaning, Whoops! No infallible Magisterium or ‘literal’ Bible ... so you’ll just have to sacrifice your life and any hope of finding somebody to love. Tough luck, kid. God said it, I don’t necessarily understand it, but there it is.’

I wish more conservative Christians would at least try to wrap their minds around why this makes so little sense to Gay people.

Gene, yes we have many gay priests and many gay Catholics, hopefully, we don’t have any homosexual priests, nor Catholic laymen. Every Catholic should read the Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII, which he gave us over 100 years ago and they right on target for us today. It is amazing that the term ‘homosexual’ was not even heard of in his time and the word Gay, meant something wonderful, not something disgusting. Pope Leo gave us “Arcanum Divinae” (Christian Marriage as one of his many letters, and it is a gold mine of Truth and Love. His letters are long, but very enjoyable to read and to understand.  +JMJ+

Why are same-sex couples living together denied holy Communion when cohabiting opposite-sex couples can receive the Eucharist?

I have an issue with this question. Cohabiting couples can not receive the Eucharist- they may come up for Holy Communion and if the Priest does not know their situation they might receive it, but that doesn’t mean that they should receive it. I thought the Church had the same prohibitions on the Eucharist for living together, divorced and remarried w/o annulment, homosexual couples, etc. Also, a married couple using contraception should not receive Communion, right? Yet, Fr. Check doesn’t make that point. So his answer doesn’t make sense to me.

‘We need to help people understand that chastity is part of the good news. It’s that simple.’

Amen to that.

To Joanp62: Yes, Father Check does make that point. “Sexual sins of any kind are considered by the Church to be a grave matter, and the person who knowingly or willingly commits them has placed himself or herself outside of communion; until the person repents and receives absolution, he or she would not be free to approach the altar for Communion.” and “We need to help people understand that chastity is part of the good news. It’s that simple. Chastity is the virtue that liberates man from selfishness, so he can fulfill his natural desires for human intimacy and love in a way consistent with the way he was made.” Hope this helps.

Hi Camille, I saw his answers, but Fr. does not come out and state specifically that the question was not really true. He is rather vague. I love the Church immensely, but I don’t know why some of our priests and bishops have to be so vague sometimes.

Camille - I agree, and the other question that needs to be asked is when did “I don’t like what you’re doing, it’s dangerous (physically or spiritually), please stop.” become “I hate you.”  Jesus’s words to the woman caught in adultery “Go and sin no more.” have been interpreted as “I hate you.”  I don’t get why it’s to okay confront a drug addict or a kleptomaniac by telling them their behavior is unacceptable and while we love them, they need to stop, but somehow when we say the same thing to people who are mistreating sex, “we really hate them.”  I’m so confused.

@Chuck Anziulewicz Aside from the fact that you can’t separate Catholicism from “religious dogma and ritual”, our laws are about love—love of God and love of neighbor because of our love of God. We don’t refrain from stealing because we don’t want someone stealing from us, we don’t steal because we love God and we love our neighbor, and stealing is expressly contrary to that love. We have laws against sexual sins because we know that committing these acts are contrary to God whom we love. In addition, to tell people they can commit acts contrary to God is to not truly love them or want what is best for them.

Chuck, because sexual activity and meaningful relationship with a significant other, is not the most important thing in life. We can still lead happy, fulfilling lives without having “that kind” of relationship with another person. There are many different relationships that we have in our lives with others that do not involve sex or living with someone or having a life partner. I am speaking of my own experience as well.

The Church, and God, is concerned with our lives here on earth but most importantly with whether we make it to Heaven or not. We are called to deny our Self- meaning our Ego- and also our fleshly desires if we hope to come to union with God. This doesn’t mean that we forgo any sort of relationships with others- we are created to be with others, to work with and help others. For married couples, it still means being chaste within their sexual relations, and for the unmarried, like myself, no sexual relations-period.

I can see now the hateful comments that I may get, but we have become a world where self indulgence has become synonymous with fulfillment and consider it a right. I have heard people say that we are “sexual beings” to excuse their belief that we all must have sex as if it is a need on par with breathing and eating. Sex is too serious and important to be used as recreation or a natural ending to a date, etc. No one thinks anything about jumping into bed with their boyfriend, girlfriend, living together etc. Now you are considered controversial if you even propose abstinence.

If people were catechised they would know that contraception, homosexuality are grave sins and one who commits them must not receive the Holy Eucharist. 
Unfortunately the Catholic Church has not done its job of teaching.  And speaking of teaching, does the Church invite large families to its schools?  I find that people with one or two children can afford the schools. Recently at a school meeting, I observed and heard women speaking of not having any more children.  No more than the one or two they had.  If the religion is taught properly, as it was, pre Vatican II,
we would not have the problems we are dealing with today.

The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes!  The Pope is teaching the faithful to hate and fear Gay people by his negative and damaging remarks about Gays who want to be in a committed relationship!  I suppose he prefers Gays who hide in fear and are forced to be promiscuous?  To me, the idea that a hand full of Gays who make a commitment to each other and consider themselves “Married” are a THREAT to the Sacrament of Marriage is NONSENSE!  He would do better to spend his time on remedies for the sins of the clergy, and what to do about the ever growing threat from Islam-religion of hate, intolerance, and murder!

It’s pretty hard for the church to convince homosexuals to follow a christian life style when they have a vast Liberal Media complex and the extreme secular Democrat Party telling them that their homosexuality is great and normal.

“It’s only in that particular field of medicine which concerns itself with reproductive systems that some are actively engaged in deliberately trying to thwart the process of nature.”

Whether or not that is true kind of depends on your perspective. The Church says that contraception is wrong because it thwarts the natural outcome of sex.  It is also natural for human beings to age and experience failures of the body, such as arthritic joints, wrinkles, osteoporosis, heart failure and a weakened immune system. All the fields of medicine try their best to thwart this natural process. It’s natural to have good joints when you’re young. It’s not natural to have an artificial knee that keeps you walking when you’re 85. But the Church is OK with thwarting nature in this way.

Nor have I ever heard the Church speak out against the surgical treatment for obesity that creates a shortcut around part of the small intestine, thus unnaturally preventing absorption of calories consumed. It thwarts the natural outcome of eating. Is this surgery good because in the big picture it helps the person achieve a natural body weight? That sounds reasonable to me. Well why can’t contraception be accepted because in the big picture it helps couples achieve a natural family size that used be brought about by high death rates in infants and maternal mortality? Nobody wants those back, but it would be thoroughly unnatural for all couples to have ten children to fifteen children.

It would be GREAT help if, when theological questions are answered, simplified language be used. Average folks may not understand what “incarnational” means or the meaning of “anthropological.”

rik dystra - “I suppose he prefers gays who hide in fear and are forced to be promiscuous?”  The whole point of the article is that practicing homosexuality is contrary to love - and you won’t find love in this lifestyle.  In fact, in your own words, you find the opposite - “forced to be promiscuous” - sounds like slavery to me.

Regarding the issue of heterosexual cohabiting couples supposedly being able to receive the Eucharist:  someone with same-sex attraction who is living a chaste life can indeed receive the Eucharist, and is indeed encouraged to do so, just like the rest of us.  The Eucharist, after all, around which all the other Sacraments point to, is the source and summit of the Christian life, and a person with same-sex attraction is no more or less called or capable of this than a person who is attracted to the opposite sex.  He or she is in the same boat as anyone who is not married, whereupon living chastely entails celibacy (which includes priests, religious, single people who are discerning, and those who are widowed).  So they are far from alone, either in Heaven or on Earth.  I think that it’s crucial to point out that everything is relative to Christ, and about what God wants, and not about what we want, that can help make things clearer.  It’s why the way we celebrate or detract from the liturgy of the Mass does matter (but that’s a subject for another post), and why Humanae Vitae matters, and it all fits together.  Furthermore, the Church would do well to talk about both marriage and celibacy together, and not in a way that’s either/or. 

A heterosexual couple cohabiting outside of marriage who nonetheless receives the Eucharist commits sacrilege, and they “eat and drink condemnation upon themselves.”  That’s grave matter.  Their choosing to do it deliberately upon knowing that it’s grave matter constitutes mortal sin.  And if I recall correctly, if that couple goes on to marry in the Church and has not repented and gone to Confession before receiving the Eucharist, they profane the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony, too. 

The Church can help herself in her outreach is to make points such as these clear to everybody, and not just those with same-sex attraction, and those who avail themselves to ministries such as Courage.  With the examples I gave, the same-sex attracted person is in a state of grace.  The heterosexual couple is in a state of grave,if mortal, sin.  So those with same-sex attraction can indeed go to Heaven, and Jesus wants them with Him.  ...and by the same token, heterosexuals can go to Hell.  Jesus wants us all.  Furthermore, given the way that sin tends to operate, if it weren’t sexual sins holding us back from God, it will most assuredly be something else.

Furthermore, marriage isn’t just about “commitment” to another person.  It involves cooperating with God in the transmission of new life (and for Catholics, this doesn’t just mean consenting to receive children as gifts from God, but availing them to the Sacramental life of the Church:  what, after all, do we mean by “life”?  Does it not go beyond mere physical existence?).  Sacramental marriage, certainly, is a covenant, and is meant to be an outward sign of God’s love for the world.  It is meant to mirror and be a part of that which God first instituted between Himself and the people Israel—He describes Himself as the husband, Israel His Bride.  Likewise, Christ is the Bridegroom, and the Church is His Bride.  In addition, marriage isn’t something that is merely expected of us, society’s “default” position, or something that we just “do.”  It most certainly is not the only way to love and be loved, or the only or ultimate way to be happy.  So those of us who are same-sex attracted are right to ponder “why can’t I have what they have?” in the sense that they too have a right to be loved, respected, and treated with dignity.  But reducing love to romantic partnerships and marriage really does a disservice to everybody.

Not all of us are called to marriage.  And nobody at all has any “right” as such to be married in the Catholic Church (and that goes for any and all of the Sacraments:  nobody has a “right” to be ordained a priest, for example).  And again, I can’t stress enough that this includes those without same-sex attraction.  One has to be called by God in that particular way, and what God hath joined, no man may put asunder.  If it’s not your calling, it’s not your calling.  It doesn’t matter that you’re “straight.”  Hence, discernment.  And it takes tons of both faith and reason.

Marriage [to another person] is a wonderful gift, certainly, and we may desire it.  Nothing wrong with that so far.  But desires and feelings are one thing, and God may be calling us to something completely different.  Celibacy is actually a different way of living that covenental relationship that I described earlier:  those called to celibacy are an outward sign to the world of what love will be like in Heaven, where none are given in marriage.  In Catholic belief, celibacy and marriage are actually complementary (and the fact that so many Catholics are simply ignorant of that does not make it less true).  It’s actually incumbent upon everybody, married and not, to bear that love in mind, because it is stronger than death:  “thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.”  For those of us who are married, there is every possibility that we may lose our spouse, whereupon we are returned to the celibate state.  After all, none of us are entitled to grow old together.

I don’t know who said it first, but Catholic moral teaching should be lived and taught as part of a beautiful tapestry. When we pull at *any* one of the woven threads, we distort the whole work.
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Register blogger/columnist Jen Fulwiler did a great job the other day of addressing the “yeah, but is that fair?” concern expressed by some comboxers.
The Catholic Church is “a sacrifice-based system” which sees “every human being [as] called to make sexual sacrifices in the name of respect for human life.”
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“I hoped that, if nothing else, he understood that there is no contradiction between me being a faithful Catholic and a close friend of his. I have converted to the religion of the crucifix, a belief system that promises joy in exchange for losing it all. Most people don’t want to sign up for that. I get that. I hope they consider it, for their own sake, since their lives would be better if they did — but it doesn’t change how I feel about them if they don’t.”
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The post is outstanding. Please read the whole thing!
http://www.conversiondiary.com/2012/07/a-conversation-with-my-gay-friend.html

Posted by Ric Dykstra on Friday, Jul 13, 2012 11:09 AM (EST):The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes!  The Pope is teaching the faithful to hate and fear Gay people by his negative and damaging remarks about Gays who want to be in a committed relationship!  I suppose he prefers Gays who hide in fear and are forced to be promiscuous?  To me, the idea that a hand full of Gays who make a commitment to each other and consider themselves “Married” are a THREAT to the Sacrament of Marriage is NONSENSE!  He would do better to spend his time on remedies for the sins of the clergy, and what to do about the ever growing threat from Islam-religion of hate, intolerance, and murder!”
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With due respect, what should your comments teach us about Muslims?

If we hated them, we’d just stand back and smile and say nothing, or perhaps even encourage them, as they sin their way to hell.  And that’s apparently what they Want. But that’s hate.  Or at least, apathy.  Certainly Nothing like love.

It’s because we love them and want them to go to Heaven that we try to warn them away from sin.  And it’s this real love that they call hatred.

The problem isn’t that the Church is hateful. The Church is quite loving. The problem is that the people she loves have become so warped by sin that they can no longer distinguish love from hate.

The heteronormaphobes march again.

So is the issue with same-sex attraction itself or acting desires associated with same-sex attraction.  In other words, can one be attracted to the same-sex, but yet not act out (i.e. engage in same-sex intimacy) and yet sitll be in Communion with the Church.

In other words, I could have the desire to do something against God’s Will (i.e. look at porn, flirt with another woman, steal $100, use contraception).  But if I struggle and refuse to give into these desires, even though they are still there, I’m still on the path to Holiness and in Communion, correct? 

Isn’t that what the Church is asking?  To not act out on those same-sex desires/urges/impulses?

Guitar Man- Yes, you have it correct. The attraction is NOT sinful, it is only acting on those desires that is.

Dave,

A person is respected only to the extent the act that created them is respected. This is about respect for sex.

There is no true love without sacrifice.  We all make sacrifices for the people we love. Homosexual acts turn erotic acts in on themselves, instead of directing them towards others, objectively.

Nobody is saying that gay people cannot love each other, just that gay sex is the anti-sis of love.

This is the religion of the cross, where love is based on sacrifice, not self-gratification.

Cowalker,

My sister and her husband practise NFP and they just have two kids. NFP however does not work in a bad marriage, so the REAL issues are something else.  The deaths you talk about can be prevented by basic health care and food.

While an interesting answer, it is a theological one and does very little to help the same-sex person who struggles with same-sex feelings and identification.  Only believing orthodox Catholics can appreciate the stance discussed above, therefore, the position is only valuable for theologically capable persons.
In my opinion, the Church must offer a significant psychological explanation for same-sex attraction and how people suffering from this condition can find healing.  There are several people who have written about the healing of at the same-sex condition: Andrew Comiskey of Desertstreams.com, and Leanne Payne. 
As long as the Church postulates a theological explanation only for same-sex attraction, it will continue to miss the mark and remain, in the eyes of many, an institution lost in the dark ages.

Great post Joanp62!  GOD bless you!  It always amazes me how differences in opinion turn to accusations of hate. The TRUTH is not subject to opinion. The CHURCH is there to tell us how to get to heaven.  If we do not understand the teachings of the Catholic Church, it is our obligation to study and seek spiritual direction. Peace!

@Jack Penegor:  That priest that you speak of who died on 9/11/01 was Father Mychal Judge, a Franciscan Priest who was Chaplain of the New York City Fire Department.  He was the first casualty of 9/11 when he was killed by falling debris while giving spiritual comfort to those firefighters injured or were dying when the first tower of the World Trade Center collapsed. In some of the media photos taken on that awful day it shows fire fighters carrying his dead body on a chair out of the rubble which to this day haunts me. From what I have read about Father Judge in media accounts and a book that was written about him, he was a living saint who worked among the sick, poor, and in the gay community of New York City. The New York City Fire Department loved him dearly, saw past that he was gay. They saw only a wonderful simple man who made a difference in peoples lives. Unfortunately some in the media focused more on his sexuality than the good he did.

Does the Church Hate Persons With Same-Sex Attraction?
“men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies”
CCC 2358 “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”

We are all sinners but we must cling to the Cross of Christ.  I wish the movements that support same-sex attraction, show respect and compassion to the Church and Catholics that want to remain faithfully to the Lord and the Church.

The importance of chasitity comes first before we can make sense of other sexual disorders. Sadly,  I had never had chastity explained to me either at home, any of the Catholic schools my parents sent me to, or at the pulpit. What a shame! Once I became aware of Theology of the Body and had my conversion, I started to appreciate the wonderful and beautiful teachings of the Church on chastity wishing to goodness that I had known this before! I pray more of us come to know our dignity as children of God.

  No Pope is making anyone afraid of gays! You are wrong! The Church is not a country club! It is the One true Church started by Jesus Himself.  The laws are not Pope laws, they are God’s laws.  They are laws of love. They are laws of Truth.  Truth can not lie.  Do you want the truth?  We all want what we want when we want it. You have a choice to live by God’s laws and precepts or not. It’s your choice your free will.  The Church is not to blame.  LIke Adam and Eve were told what to do and what not to do, we can do the same. If you are what you say you are then you have the choice just as every child of God does.  Stop blaming and pointing fingers at anyone. That is just a ploy to avoid the truth and living your life for God. I ask you to define love.  Is gay love, love?

@ Guitar Man—“Isn’t that what the Church is asking?” Answer: Yes—not to act on those desires, and then to redirect those desires to something virtuous.

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It is interesting that the biggest scandal in recent Church history is a result of the very thing that some people think is needed to fix the Church—Liberalism. Let’s look for the cure by doubling down on the cause.

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The Church understands that there is a proper, natural order of things that, when recognized and followed, allows for the flourishing of human life. When that natural order is broken, things deteriorate. The Church rightly, by definition, says that homosexual behavior is disordered—it’s a disruption of the natural order. Introducing disorder into an ordered system will always lead to a loss of human flourishing. Things that break from the natural order are not always “bad,” but they should never be equated with or held up to the same working purpose of ordered things.

Sexual behavior, rightly ordered, must accept an openness to new life. Only sexual complementarity can achieve that end. Homosexual ‘sex’ is utterly closed to new life. In principle, a man and woman can procreate. Whether one is sterile or past child-bearing years is incidental. By contrast, same sex couples are utterly unable to procreate. There is nothing incidental about that. Basing arguments on sound first principles, as the Catholic Church does, is critical for creating a normal, ordered culture .

We know that the two foundational social teachings of the Church center on the protection and defense of life and family. Defending the family, (the bedrock of society in Catholic teaching), demands defending traditional marriage. This is as critical for the culture as is defending life. The Church links marriage (the rightly ordered environment for sex) with new life directly. In that view, we can see how the life issues are directly related to the issue of marriage & family. Since openness to new life is organically linked to marriage, opposing same-sex ‘marriage’ has a connection to opposing abortion, euthanasia, etc. Protecting Life and defending Family are equal parts of the Catholic Pro-Life mentality.

The Church not only says that homosexual behavior is harmful for individuals and for society, she says it is sinful, putting the immortal souls of our brothers and sisters in peril. Sanctioning ssm, therefore, would make the Church complicit in eternally endangering souls.

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The same-sex “marriage” debate really comes down to what consequences will follow if it becomes accepted within society. Proponents of ssm believe that the consequences will be positive; opponents believe that the consequences will be negative. If the notions of order/disorder hold true, society will pay a very great price by accepting ssm—a price that is paid every time disorder enters a system (a price that society and the Church have been paying since the primary disorder of Liberalism was introduced into those systems). Proponents of ssm are basing their beliefs mainly on emotional attachments to ‘compassion,’ ‘equality,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘justice,’ and ‘freedom.’ But those terms have had to be redefined to suit a flawed social and political agenda. And now the term “marriage” must be redefined to suit another element in that agenda. The problem is that principled thought is no longer allowed into the debate. The debate has been rigged for decades so that the default “rationale” favors those who cleverly redefine the terms and then childishly call names.

God has given us Commandments, he’s given us do’s and don’ts. All for the purpose of our happiness in life and eternity with him in heaven. There is a natural repugnance on speaking of homosexuality. St. Paul confirms this as he writes on this subject, “It should not even be spoken about”. I believe the Holy Father should write an Encyclical on Chastiy, one that would touch on all the aspects of Chastity in each persons state in life. There he could condemn the ugly sins of Sodomy, with the call to reform. Things are geting really bad. Since the State started declaring this sin as normal, homosexuality is on a extrememly dangerous rise. Our Priests have not been helping much, if only they would condemn this sin with full force, we could stop the State in their evil path. Sin is now considered normal, while doing good is now being considered acts of evil. Much depends on all Catholics, and God will hold us accountable. Its time for Catholics to stand up and use all possible peacful means to declare war on all error.

What a great explanation, Yet it is clear that so many in the general media are permitted to distort Roman Catholic Truth. Why do we allow this to continue. Freedom of the press is , freedom to publish what they “know” is TRUE, not a freedom (license) to distort or lie.

If my parent’s did not have some sort of"sex” with me , at any time of my childhood, does that indicate a total lack of legitimate “love” for me ???
As a man who made “mistakes” in my past life , I know the lived truth that is truly upheld by the Roman Catholic Church and like a very good parent she, the Church, has and continues to parent all of humanity to aspire for the higher relationships that we are capable of if we want to.

Even the Essenes aspired to the celibate life before the time of Christ.

My life is not defined by sex but by Christian love that experience assures me is the basic essential for peace , happiness and joy.

My Our Lord continue to bless us all.

Guitar Man, you are correct. Having same-sex attraction is not sinful, acting on it or our other inordinate desires is.

dead on guitar man…if i was having an affair with someones wife, I’d be in mortal sin…if i stopped having sex with her BUT i still was seeing her because i was attracted to her, i would be in deep sin still….homosexuals who are attracted to another and live with one another, even though they stopped having un-natural sex with one another, would still be in grievous sin….ITS CALLED THE OCCASSION OF SIN,you must remove yourself from the occassion of sin, or you got big problems at your facing Jesus at your end,regardless of how you rationalize your same-sex DEVIATION

All this talk about ‘gay people’ confuse me! As if God created some people gay?  Did he?  If so why did He destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Again if so, other people with certain tendencies eg murderers, robbers, etc could argue that they too, were created just to be murderers and robbers!  A friend of mine believes that gay tendencies are like any other, temptations etc and so should be struggled against just like people struggle against other temptations, period!! And I think she is right or somebody, please tell me, did God make some people gay????

Yes, you are correct, GUITAR MAN. It is not a sin to feel disordered desires. It is only a sin to act on them.

@ Chuck Anz.  You’ve said it very well, brother.  Until the Catholic Church can offer something more than the Catechism and theology for people who suffer same-sex attraction, it will always be regarded as an institution out of touch with this present age.  I am not for a moment saying we need to accept homosexuality as ‘ordered’ by God, but we as the body of Christ must offer something tangible and real for LGTB people.  In my opinion, the Catholic Church is the one world-wide institution that has pockets deep enough to undergo rigorous psychological research into the developmental factors of homosexual attraction and gender disorder (while it’s still classified as a disorder in the DSBM IV).   
We need to get out of our heads on this issue and really struggle with the deep pain and confusion of people with same-sex attraction.  It is our responsibility as Christian believers.  There are souls at risk.

Hi Joyce, the Catholic Church does not believe that God makes some people ‘gay’. As far as I know, science has not found a ‘gay’ gene. However, we are all born with our own crosses to bear, whether it be personality disorders, disabilities, environment, etc. And then there are the crosses that come to us as life continues, some of our own making, some from others or circumstances, all permitted or willed by God to bring us to holiness and union with Him. Hope this makes sense. God Bless.

Of course it’s nothing but Satanic deception that “Well, God made me this way, so it must be OK.”  Wrong.  1 Corinthians 6:9 says “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,  . . . ”  Thus, if you start with a premise of already doubting God’s word—the Bible, you are already under deception and living by your own standard.  We are judged by His standard, not how we may personally “feel.”  The practicing homosexual with his/her sin is no different than the aforementioned other sins.  Once having heard the truth of God’s word—and you continue in your sin, you will likely end up as Paul says in Romans 1 of which you have already been given over to a depraved mind and thus are no longer able to make moral judgment.  At that point, the Lord has turned you over to yourself and the warnings will stop.  Go, and thus continue to enjoy your sin.

@ Casting Crowns: okay, right, you got it brother, the Word of God condemns it.  No argument there.  You offer nothing but condemnation and a self-righteous know-it-all attitude. Again, I ask how do we help those people who want to get out of it?  We have failed to describe a reasonable path of healing for those with same-sex attraction.  So many people here think it’s a matter of the will, but it’s not.  It comes from a deep wound to the soul, very often in the early years when bonding with the mother and the development of a sense of self is so critical to growing up independently of the mother.  Somehow, some way, that bond is thwarted and the sense of self in the boy does not develop and he does not separate in a healthy way of identity from his mother.  At the root of homosexuality is a deep separation anxiety that neither the will, nor knowledge, can overcome.  The healing of the homosexual neurosis is a mysterious and profound journey into the soul of a person and requires the wise negotiation, and help of knowing therapists, counsellors, and healers, of a spiritual path that leads to the real presence of Jesus Christ within us.  It is a path of terrifying fear and requires tremendous courage, wisdom, and the gentle grace of God to overcome.  The root of it is the fear of death that is the fruit of the lack of a sense of self and well-being from early in life.  When I read some of the comments here, and the lack of compassion and understanding of this ‘dread-full’ condition, I understand why so many people who are struggling with same-sex attraction say to hell with the Church.

@Patrick O’Connor:  It would be very wise to discern whether these various therapists, counsellors and healers are people “centered” in Christ or if they are only enablers which help you lay blame upon earlier influences.  There is a huge difference between having your sin explained rather than repenting and turning away from it.  As for visting healers, there is only one who heals—that of Christ.  How is your ability to maintain sexual abstinence any different from an unmarried straight person?  God’s word is equally clear regarding sexual purity for both individuals.  Scripture does say that you should somehow be granted some type of preferential class status.

The Pope has never taught people to hate anyone, so I don’t know where anybody got this idea.  A person is not sinful for what they are but what they do.

Patrick, you say: “We have failed to describe a reasonable path of healing for those with same-sex attraction.”

I know that Courage, which is Catholic, does a lot of good with helping those with same-sex attraction live a chaste life. It’s a support group with local chapters. Obviously a combox on the internet is not the place to seek help with something so serious.

So glad that I dumped the Catholic Church in the summer of 1961 precisely because of this homosexuality issue; that’s over 50 years ago now.

I got up half way thro’ the Mass one Sunday morning and walked out of the church (building) and the Church and have never been in a church since.

Keith.
SALFORD.
U.K.

@ Joanp62 I appreciate the work Courage is doing.  I believe they need to be much more vocal, then.  Our Church is taking a beating over its ‘apparent’ position on same-sex attraction.  We look like a bunch of right wing anti-sex Victorians.  And yet, Theology of the Body is a proclamation of God’s gift to us of masculine and feminine sexuality.  Much more needs to be done with this issue - and it needs to be seen to be done. 
Nonetheless, it’s a very important discussion that we are having here.  And I’ve said all I want to say!  over and out!

@ casting crowns: yes, indeed there are therapists who are centred in Christ and we need more of them!  And you’re right about having sin explained, but it is a part of the journey, and the healing comes from the presence of Christ within us.  Re. healers, did not Jesus say that we would do his works and even greater things?  People can be healers, but it is Christ who does the healing, I agree. 
Re. your question about maintaining sexual abstinence:  I didn’t comment on that, nor on preferential class status.

Patrick, don’t know if you will see this comment,since you appear to be done with this thread, but as far as the Church looking like a bunch of right-wing anti-sex Victorians, that is a matter of perception. Maybe, compared to our excessively over-sexed societies today, and those who gleefully participate in such, we are. But to anyone who even tries to be intellectually honest, they will see that is not the case, the Church’s teaching on sex and sexuality is beautiful and reasonable.

___
Keith, obviously you only see the Catholic church as a solely man-made organization. If you saw it as the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit so it cannot err when teaching on faith and morals, you might think differently.If you stayed you might have read the Catechism where it says that the Church is both Divine and Human- and you would realize that the human element of the Church can be weak and sinful, just like anywhere else in the world. It goes all the way back to the Apostles, who we know were not the best of the best, and one was a traitor. If even our Lord had imperfect men around Him, so much more the Church as well. But as regards Her teaching on homosexuality, believing that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit when teaching on faith and morals, I believe the Church is spot on.

@Joanp62:  Thank you for your insightful comments as they go to the heart of the gospel and Paul’s letters.  @Keith:  Your comments are indicative of someone who is first bent on an organizational relationship with Christ rather than one which is first “personal” with Jesus.  The problem is clear.  You have never (as the gospel says) bothered to “take up your cross and deny yourself.”  Taking up your cross means to fully surrender your life to Christ daily.  Thank God for churches which refuse to compromise the gospel and kow tow to the desires and comfort of progressives.

Casting Crowns, I hope I have it right. Sometimes trying to explain what I know and understand is hard, unless the Holy Spirit helps :).

@joanp62:  I’ve returned!  You are right about the Catholic Church’s teachings on sexuality, etc.  Theology of the Body is the most beautiful and true explanation and teaching of the beauty of sexuality, marriage, man and woman, etc. that I have ever read.  Understood, digested, and made real in us, it truly is the antidote for our troubled sexual natures.  In time, I believe we will come to recognize TOB as the greatest gift to mankind from God, through JP II, that we have received for this troubled age, since… Jesus walked on water!  Much of my complaint here deals more with getting the true message out (marketing!) in language that as many reasonable people can understand as possible.  I have a website about masculinity, http://www.masculinejourney.ca if you’re interested.

@Keith
Sorry that you have left the Church.  We wil pray for you.  Good luck.

What bugs me the most about the Church’s “marketing” failures, is that our Bishops, at least here in the U.S., for the most part, are silent on so many issues, and vague on most everything else. OTOH, I do not envy our Bishops and the job they have to do.

Patrick O’ Connor,

I understand what you are saying. Have you read Love and Responsibility or heard of Personalist Project? . It was written before theology of the Body, and has a non-theological explanation.

The issue with therapy today is that like, many things, therapists are too politically correct and are afraid of the backlash they face from the gay community.

I truly believe that only those same-sex attracted individuals who understand the church’s teachings can truly reach out to others, first and foremost with their lives.

There are amazing converts and reverts to Catholicism who know display this, but they need to come out of the Catholic closet first.

I also think NFP should be made more accessible.  God please send us TOB saints for this age, we desperately need them.

Maybe we can all keep this in our prayers. If this is a revolution of love, we need saints for our age.

It could be anyone of us. The church has always emerged stronger from a crisis. The question is will we take up this challenge to rebuild his church?

Your answer and mine depends on this.

Keith….....I, too, am sorry you left the Church!  It is NEVER too late to come home. We will pray for you!  Peace!

Patrick, for some reason the first paragraph of my comment above was not posted. I had also stated that your website looked good and that apparently your readers found it very helpful for them. God Bless

@ savvy: thanks for the reference to love and responsibility.  You’re the second to recommend it to me in the last month.  I am enjoying TOB, though!
I will certainly join you in your prayer.  There are souls at risk in this battle. 

@ Joanp62 Thank you!  I’m doing my part, with God’s help!

The RC Church is one of the largest and well-funded anti-gay groups in the nation.  It fosters a climate in the nation whereby anti-gay violence is tolerated and discrimination is supported.  I totally support the Church’s right to teach what it likes within its churches but stay out of politics and public arena. It is soely because of the Church’s treatment of gay people that I left the church in my rear view mirror.  I once loved the Church but no more.

Stephen…your wrath against the Roman Catholic Church is against the founder of the Church, JESUS CHRIST. The words of scripture clearly CONDEMN HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVITY WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT… if you got a problem with what the Roman Catholic Churches teaches, when you meet Jesus at your death, that tongue of yours and the homosexual community will suddenly fall silent in shame for living a lifestyle that is an ABOMINATION to the purity and holiness of GOD HIMSELF….

@Stephen Trost:  In your dreams, fella. The idea that Catholics, Christians, (including church leadership) should be silent in the public square is discrimination.  We will no longer be silenced.  Jesus Himself was involved in politics.  The Bible calls fornincation sin be it gay sex with your lover or between an unmarried man and woman.  You just don’t like your sinful lifestyle commented on.  You would prefer those passages be ripped from the Scripture.  Your problem is not with the church, your problem is with the word of God.  Take it up with Him.

Stephen Trost….......On what do you base your claims against the Church. You are so mislead. We will pray you return to the Church you once loved! 

ALL…......What makes non-Catholics or ex-Catholics so over the top angry?!?  There is no rational debate only extreme anger and harassment (name calling)!  Their emails do not make me angry, only confused, sad, and frightened that there could be so many who do not believe in the TRUTH.

There is a scientific basis for all this.  Sexual difference is a call to communion, not just in terms of external appearances, but also in terms of brain chemistry. 

Let me explain. Women experience a flood of oxytocin — the same hormone which they produce in labor and in nursing a baby. Oxytocin causes a woman to be forgetful, decreases her ability to think rationally — and causes an incredibly strong emotional attachment to form with the man she is with. Men also produce some oxytocin during sexual intercourse.  But their bodies also produce a hormone called vasopressin. Vasopressin, called “the monogamy molecule,” kicks in after sexual activity, and its impact is to heighten a man’s sense of responsibility. It encourages that part of him which says, “My gosh, she may be carrying my child! I’d better get serious about life! I’ve got to get to work, to provide for this family!”

Sex speaks the language of permanence and family, regardless of whether conception takes place.

Legal marriage simply affirms what already exists. There is no such thing as gay marriage. Gay sex does not speak the language of permanence and family even with brain chemistry.

Science supports a natural law.  There are many things that have distorted this language, between men and women esp, contraception.  NFP is not great in itself, it just helps read this language.

The severing of marriage, sex, and family has been a big win win for the pansexualist movement, but it is still a confused language, a distortion of what truly exists.

I would welcome feedback on this issue, with facts, instead of yelling back and forth.

Stephen,

Are you afraid of different views that you want them silenced?

It has been reported that Pope Benedict has declared that homosexuals are “not fully developed human beings”.  The Sistine Chapel at Vatican from which His Holiness made this declaration was designed by homosexual Michelangelo.  His contemporary Leonardo Da Vinci, also was homosexual.

At 5% of the 7 billion world population, we “incomplete humans” number in excess of 350 million “untermenschen”.  Seems after all that Joseph Aloisius Ratzinger alias Benedict learned his lessons well from the Hitler Youth to which he belonged as a child.