Well said…and hopefully well received by those whom you describe!  Thank you!

Men defending the honor of women? Can it really be?!?! From the bottom of my feminine heart, I thank you. I’m sure my husband will thank you, too. On behalf of my children, I thank you! Ogling is horrible. It’s hard to describe the affect it has on a woman. Men don’t understand how it violates and demeans… or maybe they do. I hope they don’t.  And yes, it does lead to other behaviors. There are no stop signs in our culture. It is probably the reason why women who undergo a profound conversion feel tempted to wear burkas. Newly sensitive to our true beauty, it is incredibly painful to feel exposed and demeaned. Hard to describe to a male but I wish I could do it well. Men, like yourself, who have a true understanding of the dignity of a woman, made in the image and likeness of God, get pretty close. God bless you.

Thank you for pointing out the disrespect and dishonour that has enabled the burgeoning of the great evil of pornography. My teenaged son would never show such disrespect for a woman - it would go against his moral character. Men who behave so cannot have respect for their own mothers, sisters, daughters.

When I was in the novitiate, I traveled with two of the other seminarians to a walmart to pick up some supplies.  One of my confreres vocally and obviously ogled a woman walking across the parking lot.  I was shocked and put my hand in front of his eyes in attempt to protect both his honor and hers.  He said to me, “if you ever do that again, I’ll break your arm.”

20 years later, he is a priest, and I am not.  Who knows what wonders God will work!  Saint Chrodegang of Metz, pray for us.

There may be something there that knows you’re right, even if it’s buried deep—otherwise why would he feel the need to make excuses?
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If men can publically ogle women and make crude remarks, I have to imagine they wouldn’t object if I and a gaggle of friends removed their wallets, went through them, and drew loud conclusions about their worth.  Right, guys?  Fair is fair. ;)

I’m really sorry, I want to follow this…but there are high schoolers with better diction, more concise thoughts, and a more comprehensive grasp of grammar. Your articles, while noble in intention, are absurd in content.

The character of a man is determined between his first and second thought.
(paraphrased)
- Dennis Prager

Way to suck up to the ladies.  Check out this combox!

Swimster - I received the exact same comment from my 5th gra…...wait a minute….are you really Mrs Reynolds?

Amen. It’s got to stop and it has to start with real gentlemen!

Well said, Pat.

As for “Swimster.”  Really?  ‘Nuf said.

My husband, dad and brothers are all manly men, and good catholic guys, and they’ve told me the same things you are saying here.  We ladies never feel creeped out in their presence. Good job.

Great article with obvious need and grave urgency.  As a wife of a gentleman and the mother of two sons, we are doing everything in our power to ensure that the world, in their adult years, will have at least two gentlemen left.  None of my husband’s co-workers want to get “stuck” riding in his work van with him because he refuses to patron the “bikini barista” coffee stand that disgraces our city.

Feminists claim America is a “rape culture.”  Absurd.  And now Pat Archbold would have us believe America is an “ogle culture.”  That’s even more absurd for there’s not enough ogling going on.

More ogling (along with bringing back the wolf whistle) would calm the rush of women to plastic surgeons’ offices and empower women to shop harder for attire that doesn’t advertise her as a streetwalker.  There’s a reason females choose to adulterate themselves with artificial colors, flavors, and fillers and that reason isn’t that they’re getting too much sexual attention from the men.

Michael,

I disagree. I think the reason females so ardently pursue artificial colors, favors, and fillers is they have bought into the same lie afflicting men: that sexual appeal is the ultimate value in life and in order to be somebody, you have to somehow possess a grossly exaggerated (read lustful) form of it.

Sorry, spell check changed Micha to Michael in my post before.

Sounds like Swimster has a guilty conscience. Thanks for your thoughts Pat.

Del Rayva,  YOU are the better man.

The 20th and 21st centuries have very much become a carnal minded culture in which many clothing fashions for both sexes provoke and inspire lust of the eyes for both sexes. Jesus asked will HE find faith upon the earth when HE returns. Little faith but probably a lot of lust.It is a very strong distraction to lead a soul away from JESUS CHRIST and eternal salvation.

I agree with this post…to a point.  I think boys and young men, and some not-so-young men (Arnold comes to mind) struggle with lust mightily. Truly it is probably one of the most difficult and widespread struggles of our time.  The 99% of men looking at porn figure seems to support this.

My approach with my three boys will be one of information and understanding and realism coupled with discussions about honor and the merits of control and respect.  I will describe to them that it is “normal” for them to feel almost constant and overpowering sexual urges in response to visual and other stimuli, especially when they are young.  I will outline why that is (their genes are trying to get them to make lots of babies ASAP).  I taught Biology for years, and that line always got the boys attention. I will tell them that sex is good and awesome, but it is also very powerful and should be used in the right context.  I will tell them they must always think of those girls as someone’s daughter and sister etc.

It is important to be real with them, because I know many men who said they were “brainwashed” by Catholicism to think that sex was bad and to feel ashamed of sexual feelings while they were growing up, and this is one of the reasons they turned away from God.  The entire psychological establishment was telling them that the shame about sex was the evil, and their repression was the cause of all of their problems.  We must not repeat that mistake.  We have to show “why” it should be contained, and validate that it is a constant struggle.

Micha Elyi, I’m sorry but I really had to laugh.  You weren’t serious, were you?  I mean, to think that women would start dressing more modestly and stop going to plastic surgeons because of…wolf whistles?

I forgot to mention the need to portray the “struggle” towards virtue as the valuable experience.  Again, my generation grew up thinking “repression” of desires was the worst possible activity.  Certainly ignoring them can be dangerous, but confronting them and conquering them is the meaning of character. 

I have come to marvel at how men who easily watch porn and ogle women and who resist all discussions of curbing that behavior as futile and repressive, are so able to do such unnatural things as run marathons, summit mountains or graduate from law school.  They disdain those who adhere to strict moral principles as masochistic zealots, while they themselves inflict untold punishments upon themselves in the name of athletic and academic accomplishment.

And a similar recent bad trend among women is their comments and ogling of young men with sixpack abs, etc.  It demeans both sexes to act in this way.

Agreed totally.  I think our bold society of do what you want, say what you think is inspired highly by television where anything goes.  Even the attitudes of the new cartoons are very crass and there is no shame.  For instance, I rented Alvin & The Chipmunks for my kids this Christmas and was sad that the innocence was amuck.  The chipmunks themselves were cute, but Alvin ate one of Theodore’s turds as a cover-up, calling it a raisin.  New comics are all about farting, and lower human nature of this sort. No embarassment, just let it all hang out. Some of it is kind of funny, but it would be nice to see some things just left alone. Bring back some class.

Women do this sometimes too. Call me an old lady, but I look at all young men like they were my sons.

... and we women have a duty to help men *not* get caught up in oggling and disrespecting us. It goes both ways.

I completely agree Matt, in addition, what is being done for the men who DO stand up for women and life?  Just last week at the abortion mill in Bellevue, NE a sobbing father trying to stop what appeared to be his girlfriend from aborting their baby, was charged with trespassing because supposedly it is illegal for him to enter the building!!  So here is a MAN, who is being a man and doing the right thing but get’s arrested for it.
*There is more to this story and I would encourage anyone to get involved.*

Sorry for the errors… Pat Archbold not your bro ;)

What it all boils down to is personal integrity and responsibility.  Sure, the media has duped most of us, and sadly, many of us have bought into it.  But, wherever the blame lies, it is up to the individual to rise above the degradation that the media would have us buy, it’s up to us to use our brain, our conscience, and our desire to be “better” in order to restore what is right and good in the world.  Yes, men and women both can choose to act more deserving of the others respect.  We all have more to offer than “eye candy”, etc. etc.

I think women contribute to this by encouraging it.  And there is no sense of shame anymore in general.  Ogling and being ogled is considered normal and encouraged unless you’re a stalker.  My husband works for a television crew covering a professional basketball team.  As part of the half time show in the arena, a group of young girls come in and do a performance similar in style to the team’s “dancers.”  My husband refuses to watch these young girls (about 8 years old) literally bumping and grinding like the women (who shouldn’t be doing it either.)  It is just disgusting for people to put their young children out there like that.  “Not my daughter!” is what he says (and we don’t even have daughters, but if we did they certainly would not be out there doing that.)  My husband is certainly not a prude - or even Catholic - but he recognizes the impropriety and bad example these PARENTS are showing by encouraging this behavior and the ogling that occurs as a result.  The child molesters in the audience must be loving it.  It is all just too disgusting and sad.  And it is thought of as fun and light entertainment while these girls are debasing themselves.  It is all part of a degenerating culture - one that you can’t even find decent clothes for your daughters that is not slut-ware.  Once women put their foot down, demand respect, and refuse to be ogled things will get better.

Obviously there are two sides to the issue of ogling.  Probably all men have been guilty at least in some sense at one time or another.  On the flip side, some women, particularly young women, tend to dress to show off their body which of course makes it very difficult for even the most virtuous of men to maintain custody of the eyes.
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Naturally of course some men will be cads regardless of the overall culture and some women will still dress to attract the eyes of men regardless of the standards of modesty… but both men and women must make an effort to properly respect women as people and not simply objects for men to ogle.

What is a gentleman? Who knows in this day and age of Lady Ga Ga and the sexually explicit Hip Hop dancing ladies. How about Dancing with The Stars? Ever check out the video game female figures?  It’s like telling a person to walk into a Sees Candy Store but don’t look at the candy. Yes, should all have a sense of shame BUT the Liberal Establishment told us not to have any “Guilt Trips”. Until the pulpit defines what being a gentleman or lady is, don’t expect the hedonistic Liberal Establishment to encourage us to be gentleman.

Change has to start with me, one person at a time. Check my behavior. How do I behave in public? How do I think and speak about persons of either sex? If I examine myself, perhaps I can see where I must change my own behavior. Good examples and bad are both catching. What messages do I convey when I vocally call attention to another’s physical appearance? Am I so concentrated on that, that I have forgotten each one is made in God’s image, inside and out? In our society, much damage has been caused because we focus on outer appearance rather than our insides. Just look at women who diet,purge,tan, surgically alter their bodies, sell themselves as sexual objects of nothing more than pleasure. What is behind it all? Men should take a look at themselves and take some responsibility for the ways in which women are treated in society. And it would not hurt to teach your sons to respect every woman and girl, in speech and thought. Gentlemanly behavior is not wasted. It is much appreciated by this woman, wife, mother, grandmother, sister, aunt, daughter. As Aretha once sang, R E S P E C T,  find out what it means to me!

How about this as an incentive not to leer at women. “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Mt5:27-28). I know I certainly don’t want this this sin on my soul.

The rampant spread of pornography has dumbed-down the respect of men for women in society today. Years ago a man would be horrified if anyone knew he read playboy or as society accepted that to pure out and out pornography in mainstream magazines and cable TV. Today reading these rags is not even considered immoral. 

Add to this change in society the fact that many women have also changed over the years and have trained their daughters to be sexual objects from the time they are teens. I work with teens in our parish and I can tell you that it is not just secular people who do this. Watch the women in line for communion now days and see what I mean.  With this came body enhancements—as if God’s work was not enough.  And if you pay all those bucks for the enhancement, you certainly have to show it. 

So, while I agree with the premise of the article, there is just as much blame with the women of society as there are with men for ogling.  But, we men should lead not follow. It starts with pushing back. When you get that dirty joke or pornographic picture from your friends over the net (it is rampant ladies) contact them and tell them you do not wish to be on their porn list.  I did this ten years ago and I haven’t lost any friends over it that I care about.

Spot on!  Thank you so much!

As a lady: Thank you.

I struggle with this article a little bit. Don’t we Americans have a bit of a hangup when it comes to our sexuality? What is wrong with appreciating and enjoying the sight of a beautiful woman, her form and figure included? If I see a beautiful woman, why can’t I look at her a bit longer, and give her a smile, too? Surely we ought to be honest about the way God made us… surely we ought not to fear the way God made us. I’m not sure at which point the ‘gentleman’ Mr. Archbold describes simply becomes a man who is afraid of his own humanity.

I also would like to respond to the comment enness left, though it wasn’t directed to me. She writes, “If men can publically ogle women and make crude remarks, I have to imagine they wouldn’t object if I and a gaggle of friends removed their wallets, went through them, and drew loud conclusions about their worth.  Right, guys?  Fair is fair. ;)”
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Okay. What if men didn’t make crude remarks but showed tasteful pleasure at the sight of a beautiful woman, and women were allowed to express delight and pleasure at the sight of a man driving a red Lamborghini? This is reasonable, isn’t it? Both sexes like what they like!

@Maryland Bill.  It is the civil obligation of every CITIZEN to see to the general welfare and security of each and every citizen/person. If a young girl throws herself at the feet of a man, he should lift her up and send her home. If she has no home, this is her plea for help, and the man if he is a man, ought to find her a home and some help. Ogling is taking advantage, unlawful advantage of another and minor person, a child of God. Now, if you want to look God in the eye and say: “She asked for it”...that is why gentlemen ask the father of the bride for her hand in marriage…reverence and respect.

@Swimster: Get lost.

Sometimes I nudge my daughter and whisper, “Oh my gosh, look at that girl/woman over there, she’s sooo beautiful.”  I don’t get offended by much of current clothing.  It’s strange, after the last “pretty vs. hot” piece, as an exercise, I tried to look at all the Moms picking their kids up at the elementary school, in light of what was being discussed—lots of snug jeans, yoga pants, and body hugging exercise gear.  The only thing I could really come up with, is that it’s really *how* you look at a person, that dictates whether you get to—sex—Some men and women are either going to have to live with the status quo, or simply live in a state of agitation.  I go to a college campus mass often, and there are tight jeans galore.  Some of these girls go to daily mass, and I think, don’t even realize they would be looked down upon elsewhere. (I’m pretty sure Jesus is happy they are there on a Tuesday in their jeans and sweat shirts.)
Yes, there is a difference between admiring, and oggling.  Some men with problems SHOULD look down, or away, and so should some women, because jealousy is also a sin.  Also, some cultures tend to have an oggling *problem*, which is sad because this is widely tolerated where they come from (often *encouraged* by women who want “macho” sons) and handed down from fathers to sons. I’m also being a realist in discussing with my four older sons *how* the battle for purity must begin and end in the personal soul.  I *want* them to feel *joy* at the sight of a beautiful woman.

@Dustin: the article is about ogling, lascivious, lecherous, licentious, lustingly ogling, as opposed to being delightfully appreciative of the beauty and generosity in the person God sends into our destiny to raise us up to a higher level. (and you do not need a red Lamborghini, but it may help) all one needs is human compassion and a need to be of some service.

@Patrick: 240 months…that would be about twenty years old. When a child is a ward of the court, twenty one years of age is when the child becomes emancipated and as an adult, is legally eligible to own money. Too much of the Judicial system has become politically correct…but tell a child he owns money on the power of attorney of his parents…food for thought.

Fabulous article, a much needed reminder. Be sure to repost in the spring and summer…

As a society, it seems we no longer teach our sons to be chivalrous men.  Chivalry calls men to honor women, and to serve as their protectors and helpmates. This precept merely states the natural order of things. Men should honor women first as individuals, but also as nurturers of life. Committing violence against women or treating them disrespectfully is an outrage against nature, and is demeaning to the idea of true manhood.
In today’s American society, courtesy is so unexpected that women generally first show surprise and then demonstrate their delight with a smile.

The authors and those that respond (including me) need to get a life.  This subject is a time waster.

Ogling not only demeans, violates, and insults but is also a direct attack on a woman’s self worth. Rather than making her feel valued as a being with individual worth and a divine nature we are made to feel as if we are nothing more than “consumable objects” as Pat puts it. Which in turn leaves us with a hollow empty worthlessness. What a tragedy. I look at my seven younger sisters and my six beautiful nieces and my sisters in law ans my mothers and my mother in law and am truly and deeply sickened at the thought that even for a moment they would be have there divinity innocence and value ripped from them. Most men can not understand the effect, the damage this has on the women they ogle, or the women in their lives that they think don’t notice. We notice. We know when we are in the company of a man of valor and virtue and when we are in the company of a man who seeks no matter how unconsciously to destroy. I would suggest that it is not only the man who ogles that is at fault but the man who allows it to happen in his presence. There should be no tolerance of such behaviors. From anyone.

Jesus said if you lust a woman in your heart you have committed adultery, and adultery is a mortal sin. Pretty straight forward. If we do this without repentence, we will be held accountable. As a man, it is a constant struggle. But Jesus doesn’t just leave it at that. He helps, if you turn to Him in humble prayer and tell Him you need his constant help. Once you turn over that piece of your free will to Him,in other words you have to want to change this behavior, He’ll carry a big portion of that cross for you. And He accomplishes this by sending the Holy Spirit to give us more than ample warning each time temptation is at the doorstep. It is yet another sin, multiplied by all of us, that Jesus suffered terribly for during His Passion—isn’t that a Great enough reason to at least consider getting control of?
http://thedivinemercy.org/message/devotions/image.php

I for one an thrilled and encouraged to see one man in my entire life acknowledge and recognize that this even happens! All I have ever heard is “what? I am not doing anything!” As a woman of 50 something I can tell you that there have been plenty of times that I ahve been around men who make me feel creepy and uncomfortable. I feel very sure that plenty of women will agree with me. And it is because of this very thing!! Thank you for writing this. It is very overdue, very true, admirable, refreshing and you made my morning!

Thanks for this, Pat, and thank you for calling out your friends. I agree with you about ogling, but women do it too, and everybody needs to act with more dignity and class. Unfortunately, this kind of thing starts in the teen years, and by the time a person is twenty, it’s probably already an ingrained habit. I think this solution starts with the folks who have kids teaching them how to act like people with manners instead of predators in the wild.

There is a lot of talk about the lack of respect for women, but I think this is a two-way street. Granted that ogling is not respectful towards women. But just last year I was walking across my college campus and virtually every woman I saw was dressed in tight, form-fitting leggings that left absolutely no curve of the lower half of the body to the imagination. They’re one step removed from being naked. One encounters women dressed in the same or a similar way almost everywhere - at least around here, quite a liberal/secular neck of the woods (i.e., chastity matters very little to the people here) and replete with college campuses. More and more I find that I resent the fact that women dress this way in front of me. It is insulting. The message communicated to me, in very clear and convincing terms, by these styles of dress is that my existence is of no import to these women - as far as they are concerned, I may as well not exist at all. They have no respect for me. They think nothing of stirring up my sexual desires in a public place (while I find this deeply violating and insulting). They do not care how their style of dress affects me because - as they no doubt would tell me themselves - they can do whatever they want - in other words it is all about them. I should not have to walk around a public place bowing my head and staring at the floor because of the way women are dressed, like a second-class citizen. I would like women to take into consideration the fact that I exist, that it is demeaning to deliberately provoke the sexuality of another person outside the context of a private, loving, and committed relationship, and that I should not have to spend the day staring at the ground because every woman I see is basically showing me everything about her rear end except the color of her skin. So here we are all talking about the need to respect women, and I’m all for it. But the question I ask is this: Where is the respect for men? Where does that conversation begin? - because I’ve yet to see it, except in isolated places that position themselves well outside the mainstream, and who aren’t saturated by the ‘women only’ mentality of our society. The women here who complain that men should respect women - when was the last time any one of you took another woman to task for dressing provocatively? Have you told your daughters to be respectful and considerate of male sexuality in their manner of dress? Do you yourselves have any respect for men? Several of you have described how you taught your sons to respect women. That’s great, but did you teach your daughters to respect men? I sincerely doubt it. While I agree with the article (as I was corrected by Mary De Voe) respect really is a two way street and I assure the ladies here we men aren’t getting it much more than you are.

Excellent column.

Well, I just a long and strongly worded comment at the undying post “The Death of Pretty.”  Here you show the other side:  Men who are courageous enough to call out their “pals” when they objectify women almost like breathing.

Keep up the good work here.  Maybe you will inspire some other men who are spending excessive amounts of time getting angry about the lack of women who look holy-enough to ogle (”!chastely!”) to actually accomplish something productive at fighting the evil of objectification!

Agreed Justin, it applies to all, man or woman.

Dear Dustin,
I am raising my children to treat all people as complete persons created by God, a mystery of infinity hidden in the human flesh, deserving to be related to and not seen as parts (no matter what parts you pick).  Will they get some specific teaching from us about how to deal with ones own urges amd struggles with lust, when puberty begins to lurk on the horizon?  YES.  Will I teach them to go to other people around them and angrily or self-righteously demand they have some concern for the opposite sex?  Never.
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I will especially discourage my sons from believing that other people’s failures at modesty—or even, more often the case, the fact that for some reason their appearance is stimulating—is the cause of their struggles.  Fact is, other people’s sins are the cause of a great amount of our struggles in life.  Deal with it.  As a man, if you blame the women around you for your own struggles with chastity, you are yourself committing a sin by refusing to see your own brokenness as the primary problem.  That is true for everyone.  We are responsible for our own log first.  No talking, there, until you get that thing out!
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You ask of “the women here complaining…When was the last time you took another woman to task for dressing provocatively?”
I ask you: How did it become a zero-sum game?  Is a male columnist not allowed to post about how he is trying to (courageously) call out his male friends on their objectifying behavior and have women thank him,  without somebody writing in with the guilt-ridden demand that those women also being lambasting the slutty dressers in the room?
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I am of the opinion that men and women shouldn’t talk to each other about modesty, unless the relationship between them is very, very specific and the discussion is conducted with total respect for the other, without presumption of the state of their soul.  That thing, where you Catholic men fantasize (or actually do) go up to the girl in the tank top at Church and tell her how she is making it hard for you to concentrate?  Um, that is itself a scandal and could very well do damage to the growth of the virtue of modesty in that woman.  As you think and write about it, you are also dwelling on her tank top again, aren’t you?
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Women cannot talk to other women about modesty either, unless a proper relationship of love and care exists: mother to daughter, spiritual advisor to advisee.  Or a respectful discussion amongst women who are trying to figure out for themselves how to express *their own* desire to show modesty in dress.  Otherwise it is not an act of love, it is an act of self-righteousness.  Hello, Satan!  Crouching there by the door!  We think he is hiding there in our peripheral vision, that that is the reason for practicing “custody of the eyes.”  No.  It is my esperience that Satan is more often hiding in plain sight in the thoughts processing that vision, trying to keep us from recognizing our sins by wrapping them in a lovely mantle of self-righteous condemnation of other people.

Corita,
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Where to start, really. Your response, while true in many ways, is plainly hypocritical, and this is what I find frustrating.
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Well, first, please re-read my comment, and point out to me the part where I blame women for my sins. You won’t find it. I am speaking of the simple biological fact of arousal. Arousal is not something I ‘do’; rather, it is a fact of my existence that imposes itself upon me in response to certain stimuli. The problem of chastity lies in what I subsequently choose to do with this arousal - and not in the insane effort to eliminate the arousal itself, which is tantamount to playing God who gave me my nature in the first place. When I am traversing a sea of women dressed in tight leggings, my sexuality is set in motion, whether I want this to happen or not. Then, since I do struggle with chastity, the battle to keep my mind clear begins in earnest. But here is the crucial point: the fact that women dress this way means my sexuality is always being provoked. Yes, this is partly due to my own habits, which have exaggerated the responsiveness of my sexuality. It’s also due to something immutable, something I cannot change: my human nature. No matter how chaste I become, the sight of a woman’s basically exposed rear end is going to provoke me, Corita. I am certainly right to find the utter indifference of women on this point deeply insulting, because to show disrespect, indeed a flippant and selfish disregard for so intimate an aspect of the lives of others, namely their human sexuality, is a deep insult to them as persons made in the image of God. No, it is not right for a woman to walk around dressed in leggings, unless, of course, the existence of men is somehow objectively irrelevant. Most women today do consider the existence of men objectively irrelevant. This is why they can exclude a basic respect for men as a factor of concern in their sartorial decisions.
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In short, the sudden prevalence of leggings and similar styles of dress are, to me as a man, a blatant middle finger thrown up to every man in society. It is tantamount to saying we do not deserve a place in our own country. I am sure that you, Corita, as a woman, consider this an absurd exaggeration. But then you do not walk around each day in a man’s body. The sight of a woman’s body does not affect you as it does me. Hence this problem does not at all impinge upon you as it does me and men generally. So you are almost bound to take the cold-hearted and dismissive view that you do, telling us men, with your sneering tone, to ‘deal with it’.
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Continued in the next comment.

Now, Corita, you wrote, “I will especially discourage my sons from believing that other people’s failures at modesty—or even, more often the case, the fact that for some reason their appearance is stimulating—is the cause of their struggles.  Fact is, other people’s sins are the cause of a great amount of our struggles in life.”
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Clearly, women cannot be blamed because God gave them womanly bodies; on the contrary, their bodies, their souls, their natures are all gifts of God to themselves and the world them. I want to be clear that my problem is not with these gifts, which are lovely, but rather with the outrageous styles of dress some women choose to wear, which as I said before I find deeply offensive and hurtful, given the indifference they represent, and which are, moreover, offensive to those very gifts just mentioned.
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Having said this, I want to point out that while I understand your overarching point – the need to take personal responsibility for one’s own sanctity, and to refuse to stop at blaming others – your first sentence and second do contradict each other. The fact is that the immodesty of some women, of many women today, is and will continue to be a large contributing factor to your sons’ struggles for purity, which is to say, for their eternal destiny. You don’t seem bothered by this at all.
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Your response to me is cold-hearted. This can be seen simply by flipping the discussion. We are commenting in response to an article about ogling. What are the problems that male ogling creates for women? Well, I suppose it’s clear: ogling is deeply insulting. Insults provoke anger. Anger, in turn, tempts one to vindictiveness and revenge. (This is no rarefied abstraction; the pattern is apparent here in the commentary.) Revenge is contrary to the command of Christ which is to love and to forgive. Hence male ogling creates very real and difficult spiritual challenges for women. It puts their eternal welfare on the line. Do you disagree with this appraisal of the situation?
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Now, if I were to respond like you, Corita, I would have told these women to stop blaming men for their problems, to take responsibility for their own destiny, to see their own brokenness as the primary problem. I would have told them, as you have me, to deal with it, to suck it up, to stop complaining and get to work. Thankfully, most of the people responding have not blamed women for feelings of anger, but rather have acknowledged the evil that prompts that anger. That is at it should be, because when one person is angered at having been wronged, we do not start by correcting the angered party, but by correcting the party that did wrong, or at least by acknowledging the wrongdoing.
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You, however, have started by correcting the anger of the person who was wronged, and have left the wrong unaddressed. That is not justice.

“I am of the opinion that men and women shouldn’t talk to each other about modesty, unless the relationship between them is very, very specific and the discussion is conducted with total respect for the other, without presumption of the state of their soul.”
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What respect you have for the sensitivities of the soul, when it comes to your own sex! Yet in the same comment you congratulate men who ‘courageously’ challenge members of the male sex for their indecencies. Bash the hearts of men, handle women’s with care. I am all too accustomed to this double standard. Ah, but women are loathe to acknowledge that men’s souls are also sensitive and easily disturbed. Incidentally, this has much to do with the comment I left, but I will leave that discussion for another day.
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I would say that in matters of sexuality, as much if not more than in matters of modesty, it is incumbent upon the correcting party to choose carefully the manner of his or her correction.
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Finally, you speak of presumption of soul. You called me guilt-ridden. You accused me of blaming women for my impurity. You accused me of fantasizing about telling women off in the middle of church (where did that come from?). You accused me of becoming lustful even as I read your comment (how awful). Your talk of presumption was remarkably relevant. As you say, the evil often lies in our own way of seeing.
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Returning to a prior point, I am sure that my tone was not helpful, and I’m sorry for unleashing the anger and the resentment with which I daily struggle. I will say it does nothing to help my anger and resentment that while I am, once again, called out for my excessive anger, no acknowledgment is made of the injustices which give rise to that anger in the first place. If women themselves are unwilling or unable to acknowledge the problems that they cause, why are they so vociferous in demanding that men acknowledge the problems that they cause?

The fact is that we belong to each other. It is not enough for men to say, ‘Too bad if you don’t like my ogling; it’s not problem; deal with it.’ It is also not enough for women to say, ‘Too bad if you don’t like my style of dress; it’s not my problem; deal with it.’ Both responses are as cold and cutting as the edge of a surgical knife.

Ah, sorry, the above is my last comment in a long response that is forthcoming shortly (thanks to the spam moderator).

If a man observes a woman but makes no comment or visible reaction concerning her appearance, he can appreciate her without the crude comment or other visible reaction.  It is a private thing for him.  This is uaually the case when he is alone.  But when he is with other men, he seems compelled to comment and react to her in a way that is chosen to express his heterosexual and animal lust.  It is a way to protect himself from any wrong assumtions, by the other men, that he is homosexual or asexual.  It also displays a need to show some form of dominance in the arena of men.  Until men can feel confident in their manhood, with out having to display it, this will continue.  It will also continue to grow if other men do not put an end to it by discouraging their friends from making these comments.

I hate ogling too. Especially when he does it ALL the time, even when am around. Then when confronted-he lies about it. Yes, am talking about my own husband.
-Crushed-

What would happen if you deliberately began ogling men, just to teach him a lesson. Is he smart enough to get the hint?

Vince - really? You’re a man? How can you be that clueless?

@Vince
No, he wouldn’t notice.. he’d be busy ogling.

@ wife, don’t just call. him. out.  Like I’d be tempted to!  *Tell him* he’s *breaking your heart* (which is the best way to call him out.) You are in my prayers tonight.

Dustin,
Thank you for your responses. I attended an evangelical university and was confronted by both sides of the issue of modesty.  We had a dress code, code of conduct, etc. During my Freshman year, some of the contents of the aforementioned “codes” seemed a little bit ridiculous.  After all—what was the big deal about wearing a big sweater with leggings?  We’re covered, no cleavage hanging out. As women, we see this issue from the women’s perspective. We have NO IDEA what is going on in the male brain in response to how we look.  The fact that you all are easily stimulated by what you see, to me, is unimaginable.  It does us well to understand this issue from all sides and to act appropriately in response.  To love our neighbor as ourselves, in this case, may mean putting ourselves in their position and analyzing how they would respond to what I wear, say, do, etc.  We have to think through our words and actions—included in the actions are how we dress and behave.  I actually am experiencing guilt as I write this—not to get super deep, but in response to some life events, I seriously doubted that God cared about me and threw some standards about modesty and dress out the window.  I didn’t do anything like sleep around or intentionally become a temptress, but hey, workout spandex and a big t-shirt were cute—why couldn’t I wear them?  It has been normal workout attire for me since, but lately I have been making an effort to change that.  There is a guy I work with who is a Christian, about my age, with a wife and baby on the way.  To think that I could be causing him to lust or anything, and who knows what effects that has, crushes me.  Not that I would be intentionally inconsiderate otherwise, but to know that I could be causing sin in the life of a brother is sin and breaks the heart of God.  Assaults on the Church should not come from inside the church.  I really appreciate your honesty in your response.
God bless you all as you pursue Him in the midst of our anti-God culture.

@Dustin, I just read your rant.  Get some therapy for that.  For some men, looking *away* is not only the solution for their problems, it is actually *self denial* that is *good*, and like *incense* on an altar. I’m sorry about whatever you were exposed to, which got you to this point. Your anger (shiver) toward Corita for calling YOU out is a long-winded-transference-of-guilt. Wow. I suppose *ankles* really got some guys off at the turn of the century.  Get some therapy before the love of your life crosses your path.  I’m going to go get my eighteen-year-old daughter to come read your words, because she doubted me when I told her that *males like you exist*.

Dustin,
Thank you for your responses. I attended an evangelical university and was confronted by both sides of the issue of modesty.  We had a dress code, code of conduct, etc. During my Freshman year, some of the contents of the aforementioned “codes” seemed a little bit ridiculous.  After all—what was the big deal about wearing a big sweater with leggings?  We’re covered, no cleavage hanging out. As women, we see this issue from the women’s perspective. We have NO IDEA what is going on in the male brain in response to how we look.  The fact that you all are easily stimulated by what you see, to me, is unimaginable.  It does us well to understand this issue from all sides and to act appropriately in response.  To love our neighbor as ourselves, in this case, may mean putting ourselves in their position and analyzing how they would respond to what I wear, say, do, etc.  We have to think through our words and actions—included in the actions are how we dress and behave.  I actually am experiencing guilt as I write this—not to get super deep, but in response to some life events, I seriously doubted that God cared about me and threw some standards about modesty and dress out the window.  I didn’t do anything like sleep around or intentionally become a temptress, but hey, workout spandex and a big t-shirt were cute; why couldn’t I wear them?  It has been normal workout attire for me since, but lately I have been making an effort to change that.  There is a guy I work with who is a Christian, about my age, with a wife and baby on the way.  To think that I could be causing him to lust or anything, and who knows what effects that has, crushes me.  Not that I would be intentionally inconsiderate otherwise, but to know that I could be causing sin in the life of a brother is sin and breaks the heart of God.  Assaults on the Church should not come from inside the church.  I really appreciate your honesty in your response.
God bless you all as you pursue Him in the midst of our anti-God culture.

Anna Lisa, your overwrought shaming tactics are unnecessary. By all means, have your daughter read my comments. It would be good to expose her to another side of the story than women typically permit to be told (at least not without subjecting the speaker to the same manipulative techniques you employed with me). Your comment was cheap. Men exist. The world is not all about you. Get over it.
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Self-denial is good. It’s just that it applies to both sexes.
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Corita didn’t call me out for much of anything, besides what I already admitted. She did call out an figment of her imagination for all kinds of things.
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My assessment of blame was reasonable. I owned my lust. I blamed women for not giving a rat’s rear end about the fact that men exist. But then, I took great care to explain my point already, and as you have already shown you cannot stand to have your precious bubble burst, I will not belabor the issue further.

Women’s reactions to criticism always amuse me. They are quick to judge, quick to condemn, quick to project, quick to criticize, quick to demand, quick to blame, quick to mock, quick to insult, quick to belittle, quick to dismiss, quick to hate - especially where men are concerned. For the most part men bear all these things with silent patience. How many nasty things have I heard women say, that went without correction? Yet they cannot handle even a small amount of correction themselves! They have no idea how much patience men show them! If we men treated you women anywhere near as rotten as you treat us, you would be crushed.

@Dustin,  I waited a bit to reply to think it through.  My only response at this point is to apologize for writing in such a way as to make you think I was talking to you specifically when I said this part:  “you Catholic men fantasize (or actually do) go up to the girl in the tank top at Church and tell her how she is making it hard for you to concentrate?”  I wrote that almost to amuse myself, not because I know that you have this recurring thought.  (I know at least half a dozen men who do.)
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I certainly don’t know if this is you in particular.  I was speaking in a generalization of something I have read *repeatedly* in complaints on Catholic discussion boards,—usually from men who are steaming mad about how women make their lives difficult. 
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I am going to take a pass at responding to your jibes at my supposedly terrible and uncaring parenting of my boys.  I will also resist the urge to write more lengthy paragraphs trying to make you see what is plainly on the screen for you to see if you would see it, in what you wrote. 
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I will end with this, to sort of highlight what anna lisa’s commented:
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You wrote:  “I want to be clear that my problem is not with these gifts, which are lovely, but rather with the outrageous styles of dress some women choose to wear, which as I said before I find deeply offensive and hurtful, given the indifference they represent…”
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Look.  There is a major difference between ogling someone (an aggressive, outward act) and putting on leggings to run to class or the store.  (Although some clothes can be see as an assault on the senses, that is certainly not confined to women and I would say in general it is highly subjective, and much of the time done without thought that anyone might be upset by it.  Meaning, in ignorance, NOT aggression.)
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You are correct that I do not know your soul.  I ask only that you try to remember that when you go out each day and see women around you, there are lots and lots of them.  The soul of each woman, and where she is in her understanding of modesty, is different and also *undiscernible by you*.  There might be a few who get dressed with the thought, “Ha! This will show those MEN!” and there may even, depending on how many women you have already alienated, be one that doesn’t care about you, personally.  But, really, most of them aren’t getting dressed for you.  For better or worse, that is a FACT.  I can guarantee that ?.9999 of them aren’t.  For you to take that personally, with recurring anger and resentment, is a huge red flag for you.  Or anyway, it should be. 
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My sin is mine and yours is yours.  Let’s each start with ourselves.

Dustin,

I hope to God you never get married much less reproduce unless you get some real therapy…Grow up and stop trying to call other people “hurtful” for tempting you, what are you in middle school? that’s a load of you know what.
Stop trying to blame women who wear leggings or other clothing you find provocative for getting all hot and bothered.
I’m in college too and I see men in all sorts of clothing (tight baseball uniforms, swim trunks, or even well tailored suits) and think to myself “wow, he is attractive” but it doesn’t make me sweaty or wanna lurk from the bushes *cough cough. I don’t reduce people to a piece of flesh, so why should you?
I wear leggings, and jeans all the time. I like them, they’re comfortable, but you have no right to reduce me or any other woman to body parts.
What would you have me do, wear an ankle length dress and veil so that you don’t have the burden of watching my butt as I get a drink from the drinking fountain? LOOK AWAY!
I won’t do it to you, you won’t do it to me, nobody sins, and God will be happy. It’s that simple.

@Dustin at 9:03
“Crushed” is already up above.  The woman whose husband ogles other women right in front of her. 

...Or did you mean like, actually crushed?  Physically?

@anna lisa:  Make sure you tell your daughter that they are often good, Church-going men.

“Silent patience” HAHAH, please….
if you are so frustrated with women why don’t you switch teams Dustin?
Honestly, I really don’t know why you bother with us! We’re all a bunch of ridiculing, non acknowledging, apathetic sluts!
Why don’t you and all the other stoic manly lust endure-ers pack your pornography and leave us to the wolves?
Wouldn’t that just teach us a lesson???

Corita, ‘wife’ has my sympathy and my compassion. I believe her when she says she is hurting a great deal because of her husband’s behavior. She says she is crushed, because she is. It’s not a joke. But I recognize this, Corita.
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Look, maybe it is hard to see what I am saying. Maybe you do not really believe I am saying anything meaningful at all. I will try again. Women suffer. They suffer for many reasons, and one big reason they suffer is because men hurt them. I get that. My anger with women - and really, with men also, for basically the same reasons - has nothing to do with the fact that women have a perspective all their own. It has nothing to do with the fact that women speak their minds, or admit that men have hurt them. I know you women are hurting. I am sorry for the pain you are going through. This is not what I said before, but I am so tired of offering my compassion when none is offered to me in return, when it comes time for me to speak of what I see as a man. On the contrary, when discussions about men come about, it is only to criticize us for our faults, or to speak of what we can do for everyone else. I am sick and tired of it. What about us? I want just one chance to speak as a man without some woman coming around to put me down or draw the attention to herself instead.
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You see, I am not a strong man. I am not afraid to say so. I’ve no desire whatsoever to pretend to be something I’m not just to satisfy the anger of some anonymous woman who demands I ‘man up’ because she can’t handle my anger (while expecting me to handle hers). I am weak, sensitive, hurting, and very, very angry. Laugh if you want, I am not afraid to hear laughter any more. Things are what they are. I am not interested in making people feel comfortable, and I am not afraid to piss off women and men alike. I am determined to present the truth as I understand it, because I believe that in some ways we are well past the time to mince words - that if anything we need to risk on the side of pushing too hard, lest we should continue to be ignored - and because as far as I can tell all these other self-styled manly men are either too afraid or too apathetic to speak up.

Corita, you say I think of myself as stoic and manly. I definitely do not. I think that I’m weak, that I need my society to pay attention, and that I cannot and will not be silent any more. The stoic, manly men are the ones who will throw me under the bus out of a misguided attempt to protect you, but who would let you say and do anything at all to me, just because you are a woman and I am a man.
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And this is precisely what infuriates me about the state of things: women are stuck on themselves. You are. Probably hundreds of times now, I have listened (or read the comments of) women who state in plain terms exactly what they think and feel about men, censoring nothing. Your sex does not hold back. Seldom does any man push back. Almost never have I heard a man treat an angry, hurting woman to a dose of pious, hypocritical, self-serving talk about the need for love or forgiveness or whatever - because as I said before, you acknowledge the injustice first, not the excessive anger. So why are you so unable to take a man as he is, rather than as you wish he would be so that you could live in a perfect world that always puts you first? Can’t you take a backseat just once so that we men can have a chance to talk, even a crazy one like me? I mean, for crying out loud, ladies, the media, the government, the academy, all of it is absolutely dominated by your concerns. You can’t give me one effing comment on a damn near irrelevant article on a damn near irrelevant newspaper? Why is this so hard? I know my tone is angry. Can’t you at least try to find out what I’m saying? How many men really took a moment to listen to your complaints on this thread? But you can’t do it for us, can you?
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Corita, I would advise that woman’s daughter to watch out for the moralistic American Catholic Church. Really, who do you think this church is for, lady? It is exactly for people like me. Exactly for people like me. And it’s for good, church-going women like you, who cannot stand to see the humanity in men. You’ll say you do, but you’re full of it.

Spam troubles again. The prior two posts are in reverse order.

@ Dustin, please leave Corita alone.  That was my beautiful, 18 y. o. daughter, “Yoga pants”  Yes, she is young, yes—this was an eye opener for her.  You shocked her.  She is a nice,beautiful, innocent girl who is an honor student, and an artist. She is “saving herself” for marriage.  Yes, she has a lot of spirit in her, but like I said, I have *never* called her over to look at a comment on a blog post.  She felt like she could live on this planet, wear yoga pants to school,worship God every Sunday at Mass (and sometimes weekdays) and not feel reduced to a piece of flesh.  My “bubble” wasn’t popped, hers was.  But guess what?  I’m not going to take her beautiful, tasteful clothing away to suit your mania.  She is my DAUGHTER.  My husband’s TREASURE, My six sons’ BELOVED SISTER, and the near object of worship of her baby sister.  Elevate your mind and soul Dustin. She won’t objectify you if you want to play baseball or dance in the Ballet, don’t objectify HER in her yoga pants EVER.  Don’t objectify ANYONE.

Interaction is a two way street. It does not require verbal communication, either. A man should not blame a woman for his reaction to her. Men have long used women’s dress as an excuse for unwanted, violating behavior, including ogling. First women were in the moral wrong by showing ankle, then for showing calves and knees. Then, believe it or not, women started to do outrageous things like wear trousers on a regular basis… 
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We need to quit blaming our bad behaviors on other people. Our reactions to the world in which we exist and those with whom we share the world are solely personal decisions. Decisions made over time create habits and behaviors. Habits can be broken, and behaviors changed. Yes, change is hard, but we have free will. When we don’t have the strength to use our free will for the best, we can pray and ask for help making better decisions. These will create better habits. If a man really wants to change how he views women, he can! It can be done just as we can choose any number of spiritually, physically, and emotionally beneficial behaviors, as God would want us to do.

Hello,
After following the comments of Dustin and several women following, I would like to make a comment.  First of all, I am not even Catholic, I am Mennonite, (but not the cape dress and cap kind). 
Ultimately, I didn’t understand anything about why modesty is important until after I was married and my husband spoke to me very bluntly about how a man’s mind works, and how it is such a struggle for men in general to keep their thoughts pure.  But as was pointed out, this is the way God made him.  God made him this way to keep the race going.  But even as He created men with strong drives, He also provides a safety net called marriage that as the Bible says is strong enough to contain those drives. 
The difficulty is this: You have relatively clueless girls who dress immodestly because they get more boy-attention when they do—girls who are also being told by advertising that showing their bodies is a way to be liberated.  You also have parents, many who are too busy to notice, who would struggle to speak bluntly enough to show their daughters why modesty is so important—I know that my parents would never have spoken to me the way my hubby did—they would’ve been too embarrassed. 
Then you have very few young men who are growing up to be real men.  Thousands of men today are being allowed to remain irresponsible teens well into their twenties, and the hard thought of work, manhood, and responsibility are too uncomfortable to consider.  Living at home eating pizza and playing video games are more in their line.  They have no thought for other forms of self-control or responsibility, so why should they have any in this area either? 
We need to (as Christians) do our best to be influential in whatever sphere we find ourselves.  If that means speaking privately to a group of fathers, expressing real concern about how the women in the church dress, do so—not in the womens’ face of course!  Or find the most covered woman in the church, approach her and see if she has strong beliefs about the topic that she would be willing to share with other women in the church.  Also, modest doesn’t mean frumpy.  It can and to some women it does.  Women can look very feminine and attractive and even stunning, but remain covered.  So while older women should be teaching about modesty, their should also be the disscussion of beauty.  Learning about good colors, styles, and habits should go hand in hand—after all, women are the King’s daughters!  I would say that the Duggar’s many daughters are beautiful but they remain covered also.
On the flip side of that is to somehow balance this teaching with marriage preparation especially for women, so that after marriage, they can aide their husbands in keeping their drives contained.  Too often, women (especially protected women), enter marriage and are clueless!  They need to learn to make themselves aware of and available to their husbands, so that their husbands aren’t as tempted to look elsewhere.  don’t misunderstand me—a husband should practice consideration of his wife and never force her, but she should practice the same and be his outlet—loving each other.  It’s definitely a 2-way street, and both parties need to be aware of their own bodies and motives, struggles and sins, and we need to be compassionate and help each other in any way possible, not point fingers and make assumptions so that the other person’s sins look worse than ours.

Dustin,
I wrote a longer comment to you that is still in the spam filter, I guess.
Other than to point out that I am not the person who referred to you as “stoic and manly” above, that is—if it ever gets published—going to be the last comment from me, I think.

The author is off base in his article. Ogling is not the sin. The sin took place earlier in the heart (Mat 5:28). Ogling is an outward manifestation – but of what? A man who doesn’t ogle may still be committing mortal sin in his heart, while a man who ogles may be putting on a macho show for his friends – disrespectful, undignified, and demeaning to both himself and the woman to be sure – but not adulterous.

The response of some women to Dustin’s original comment is appalling. Women have no part in kindling a man’s sexual desire and moving him to sin? No matter how they dress? It’s all on men to deal with it? Christ’s would say otherwise, laying woe on those who make themselves the occasion for sin, guaranteeing terrible punishment (Mat 18.7, Luk 17:1-2).

Women you cannot shirk this responsibility. Even if you think it’s unfair, once it has been made known to you that a particular form of dress is provocative, you will be held to account. Saying you are not your brother’s keeper and that it’s not your problem is uncharitable and unchristian.

“To a great extent the level of any civilization is the level of its womanhood. When a man loves a woman, he has to become worthy of her. The higher her virtue, the more her character, the more devoted she is to truth, justice, goodness, the more a man has to aspire to be worthy of her. The history of civilization could actually be written in terms of the level of its women.”  - Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

Anna Lisa, your comment is bizarre and unrealistic. You do not want men to objectify your daughter but at the same time you - to borrow her words - feed her to the wolves by encouraging her to dress in a provocative manner. Do you know what men think when they look at her body? For example - “Wow, that girl’s got a hot ass.” Have you taken a moment to imagine the way men have probably stared at your daughter’s body while she is wearing yoga pants? Do you know what’s going through their minds?
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Now, I’ll bet I’m really ticking you off right now. But I want ask you - Is what I’m saying true or false? Are you mad because I’m saying it, or mad because it’s the truth? So what are you going to do, Anna Lisa? Are you going to redeem the world? Are you going to play savior? In other words, is it within your power to change the heart of every man your daughter will ever encounter? And if you can’t do that, what can you do? It seems to me the answer is to encourage your daughter to protect herself. I’m not sure why you consider yoga pants so important.
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Your daughter is shocked. Excuse me, but why? She is innocent, it sounds like she’s also naive. I was naive about women, I’ve been shocked to learn many interesting things about them (e.g., they aren’t sugar and spice, they’re fallen human beings like myself, as the ridiculous reactions to my prior comments have shown). In any case, it seems to me a really bad thing that at the age of eighteen your young adult woman is shocked to discover the way men are. I hope she will be able to protect her heart in her college years, if that’s where she’s going now.

The remarkable thing to me is that while women expect men to ‘belong’ to them - that is, to be responsible toward women - women themselves refuse utterly to belong to us in any way. You demand that the ogling stop. But you do not care about your relationship with us - you do not care a whit how your behavior or your choices affect us. No matter what, you women say you can do whatever you want, and we as men simply have to deal with it. Yes, we’ve gone from ankles and wrists to short skirts and tight jeans. But if this is the pattern, then why shouldn’t women be able to walk around naked on a hot day? Why not go to that next step, since no matter what, my lust is my problem, and not yours? Why not be absolutely comfortable, since you can do whatever you want - men be damned? If you want to rebel against objectification - really you’re rebelling against and punishing men for being sinful like you - by exposing your body, why not take your freedom to the limit, and really make us men suffer?
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Women are fixated on rights, on doing whatever they want just to prove that they can. In this case they are fixated on the right to wear yoga pants. I’m wondering at what point, if such a point exists, a woman begins to think that men are also God’s children, weak children, like themselves, for whom sexuality is a place of remarkable difficulty and temptation. I wonder at what point a woman starts to think that maybe making sanctity hard for her brothers (or her sisters) is a bad idea. I wonder at what point a woman becomes realistic about men as fallen human beings, for whom chastity is a tremendous struggle, rather than telling men off because it’s so hard for them to overcome this rift of original sin in their souls, all so she can preserve her precious right to wear leggings and whatever else. You are angry in large part, I think, because you are so damned indifferent to men. You don’t love us (in the agapic sense). Hence yoga pants take on a bizarre significance, when you could easily switch, say, to a nice pair of jeans and maybe a nice sweater that falls a bit lower on the body, and look lovely.
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(Yoga Pants, if you’re still reading, I don’t think you’re an awful person. I am trying to communicate my point of view to the other women here, who really don’t think I deserve to have a point of view.)
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I’ve been reading a book called ‘Citadel of God’ by Louis Dewohl. It’s the story of St. Benedict as he builds his monasteries in Italy. Along the way he finds an enemy in a bad priest, Florentius, who envies the admiration people show Benedict, since he has always wanted this attention himself. Eventually Florentius sends seven prostitutes to Benedict’s monastery, knowing - knowing - that their presence will drive his monks to distraction, and that ultimately they will capitulate to lust, despite all it will cost them in the process. The women go at night and dance naked in front of the sleeping men. Benedict responds, not by shaming his monks, not by telling them to man up and deal with the temptation, but by picking up shop and moving to a town in the mountains. He knows that Florentius’ hypothesis is right: if these men are continually exposed to this temptation, they will falter, and Florentius will succeed in destroying his monastery. Period.
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This is a work of historical fiction, I’m sure the above story is not true. However I can assure you as a man that it’s a perfectly realistic story in every respect. Florentius’ gambit to destroy Benedict’s work was right on the money - he knew what to do. Benedict’s decision to leave - since he knew he could not make the women stop - was right on the money.
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A woman’s body has great power on a man. This is a place where women are the powerful ones, and men the weak ones. If women will not be responsible with what they have, we men are going to have a very hard time, and most will fail. It is horrible to hear the women here whooping about their freedom to dress however they want, without any regard whatsoever to the fact of my existence.
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Finally, I want to reiterate lust is not the only issue. I resent having my sexuality revved up when I simply mean to make my way through a public place and accomplish some business or another.

I can’t speak for all men but some women bear equal responsibility.  If a woman deliberately dresses sexily and gets ‘ogled’ than how can she complain?  I guarantee that a woman can dress in such a manner that she will not get ogled.

I will say it again Dustin:  My daughter wears very tasteful clothing.  And no, the world will NOT become a safer place for lustful men if women would just suck it up and wear skirts.  It all begins and ENDS with what you are lighting a candle to in your heart.

Anna Lisa, it would not become a safer place for heartless women if men would just suck it up and stop ogling. It all begins and ENDS with what you are lighting a candle to in your heart. Your salvation is not my responsibility.

Guess what? :) We’re not going to throw our pants away! Stop transferring guilt to women or you will never be cured of your problem.  I Really hope it works out for you Dustin, because I can spot a contrived protest, and a heart in bondage a mile away. (Extreme dress was never on the table) I won’t be addressing you again, but I do wish you well as you struggle with what you have been exposed to.  I hope you can work it out.

Well, I’m glad you’re going to stop responding, Anna Lisa, because you never read my comments in the first place. I feel like there is a third person present and perhaps his name is also Dustin and he’s calling you a !@#$% and telling you to wear skirts and to stop making him lust, confound you. Dustin the Invisible, please excuse me for responding on your behalf, I didn’t realize you were here.
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The sexuality God gave me is not a problem that requires a cure. It works as God intended. He designed me so that when I see a naked or half-naked woman I become aroused. Arousal is not lust. Lust is an abuse of arousal. My work lies in not capitulating mentally to the arousal but I cannot eliminate the arousal itself, that’s part of the nature God gave me. I am working on not capitulating mentally. You are working on ignoring the presence of male sexuality as a factor in the world so you can wear yoga pants. If you turn on all the men in the room while wearing them, if you force them all to turn their eyes to the floor when you walk in, it’s no skin off your back. What do you care that men exist? You’re a woman! If anything you deserve applause. After all, you exist. What an accomplishment.
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Anyway, thanks for your ‘concern’. Please pray for my problem with lust. I’ll pray that you will grow a heart. Good luck with being objectified.

I liked the age being given in months.

Sarah, thank you so much for your mature, kind, and thoughtful response. It was so refreshing and relieving to hear a woman speak the way you did. I particularly appreciate these comments of yours which I hope the other women commenting here will take a moment to read:
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“During my Freshman year, some of the contents of the aforementioned “codes” seemed a little bit ridiculous.  After all—what was the big deal about wearing a big sweater with leggings?  We’re covered, no cleavage hanging out. As women, we see this issue from the women’s perspective. We have NO IDEA what is going on in the male brain in response to how we look.  The fact that you all are easily stimulated by what you see, to me, is unimaginable. It does us well to understand this issue from all sides and to act appropriately in response.”
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Contrast this with another response: “I’m in college too and I see men in all sorts of clothing (tight baseball uniforms, swim trunks, or even well tailored suits) and think to myself “wow, he is attractive” but it doesn’t make me sweaty or wanna lurk from the bushes *cough cough.” This woman assumes the male brain is identical to hers so naturally she cannot understand what I am saying.
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Sarah, you also wrote: “There is a guy I work with who is a Christian, about my age, with a wife and baby on the way.  To think that I could be causing him to lust or anything, and who knows what effects that has, crushes me. ... I really appreciate your honesty in your response.”
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Again, thank you so much for your supportive comment. I wish your way of thinking was more common.

I don’t mind if men look at me and enjoy the sight!  It would be sad if we all had to shuffle around with our eyes downcast to avoid the danger of being tempted by a bit of beauty.  But men who snicker and nudge their friends are gross, and men who yell are terrifying.  I hope that none of you Catholic boys are doing those things.

Ladies,
From the beginning, when Eve passed the buck for her disobedience to God in the garden (this serpent deceived me), women still try to pass the buk for their sin. 
Now I didn’t grow up in a home where I was required to wear modest skirts or dresses.  However, since I have been married and have had my own children, I have in the last 6-12 months, attempted to wear below the knee skirts that are full enough to hide my general shape (and they are cooler in the summer than shorts even!) and give me freedom of movement as I walk and work around the house and yard.  I am careful to wear shirts that are not revealing.  I have been working in the garden, and even mowing the lawn in my skirts.  Maybe it is crazy, but something happens to me when I am wearing my skirts.  I feel a little old fashioned, but I feel more proper and womanly and valuable.  If by chance a man happens to give me a compliment, I know that it is a respectful admiration of my womanliness.  I have no concern, because I did my part. It is freeing and beautiful, not binding or enslaving.  I challenge all of you women to try a month of wearing feminine skirts and dresses that are modest(go to thrift stores).  Now, I am completely comfortable in them and actually feel strange in pants.  And ladies, don’t hate yourselves if you secretly like it!  Allow yourself the freedom to like it.  Enjoy being feminine and womanly.  And I don’t mean weak and wimpy.  I have weeded my garden, scrubbed my kitchen floor, and on and on, wearing skirts.  Just wear them more full and flowing, so they don’t impede your ability to walk.  Anyone strong enough?  Anyone brave enough?  Or are you all too wimpy to try it? (teehee) And save the hearts and minds of a lot of men around you(if you tend toward revealing clothing).  Also, one thing to think about is that all of us in our natural selves is a sinner.  That means all women, without the redeeming power of Christ in her life, naturally wants to wield power over men.  We naturally want to dominate(like Eve did).  If left to ourselves, these are the levels we default to.  It is only when we realize our tendency to sinfulness and the motives of our hearts and purpose to live by a different standard, that our hearts can change.  Sure it would be nice to dress however we want, but life isn’t about having everything we want—we are to consider others better than ourselves—remember?

Yeah, my last comment to Dustin still has not shown.
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Here is my rewrite/summary:
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Women don’t dress for you.  Get over it.  Some women might be dressing to look sexy and get men’s attention.  Hey!  Though, not all are.  If a woman is dressed in a super provocative way, why aren’t you *sad* for her?  Why does your heart not leap into prayer at how misguided she is?  A little but of “ok, that one is definitely not the one for me” and move on, even. 
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But anger and resentment?  As if every woman’s outfit is a personal affront to you?  Look, I can understand feeling hurt that you struggle so much and that so few people seem to understand.  But every word you have written, and re-written, seems to be rushing forward past that.  You don’t have to be a raving misogynist (The invisible Dustin, who allows himself to curse woman outright) to have allowed anger at women to take root in your heart.  As someone who struggles with other kinds of anger, I get that. I also know from experience that where I see that weed growing, I have to get it out.  NOT water it with the passion stoked by angry message board rants.

What utterly pains me, considering the topic of the original post, is the fact that the subject matter is about respect.  The topic is about loving and cherishing our neighbor as a child of God.  This is not a battle of the sexes.  I could get into a battle, and ask men if they are ready to give up their baseball uniforms,  their football pants, wrestling uniforms, bull fighting regalia, swan lake tights, speed skating suits….Levi’s?  Men have more genitalia on the outside.  It actually sticks out there more.  Toga anyone?  Nope. Wrong path.  Respect.  My husband has been propositioned at the gym.  Gross.  Do I respond to this information by telling him not to wear shorts there?  Not go to the gym?  Move to the top of a mountain?  Nope.  Respect.  Love.  Charity. That’s it.

@Dustin and @Laura- I see a *major* theological problem in what you both wrote.  As Dustin puts it, “The sexuality God gave me is not a problem that requires a cure. It works as God intended.”  Laura has the same idea, and also adds the sentiment that “...after marriage, [women] can aide their husbands in keeping their drives contained.”

The problem is our sex drives are *not* as G-d intended them to be.  Not at all.  Like every other part of creation, the sex drive is touched by original sin.  The biological part of the sex drive was intended to be integrated fully into the spiritual, rational part of the human person.  Original Sin separates them and makes them at war.  To say that “God made me this way and it is the responsibility of women to protect me from that” makes no sense, theologically.  G-d didn’t make us broken and without integrity.  Our Fall did.  Our personal individual decisions and habits make it even worse.

Relationships between men and women, as Dustin senses, are touched by original sin.  The sex drives of men and women both are warped by the Fall. I agree that we are called to help each other become closer to G-d.  But I disagree we have a right to be angry when other people don’t do that.

We have to start with the idea that the sex drive is intended for good…but has been warped and, like any other part of our lives, take responsibility to guard it.  Ourselves.  What a gift it is to find those who will help us in that endeavor!  How sad it is that we live in where there are so many who don’t even know that men and women need that kind of help.

Look, I just don’t see that anyone of us will be happier or more holy if we nurture anger and resentments over the sins of other people.  Benedict picked up his monastery and moved because he knew it would be useless *and* wrong to go out and tell off the dancing girls.  Men! Take that example for yourselves.  Move your behinds somewhere else, and get back to prayer and work.

@anna lisa,  You and I both know that the world has never been “safe”, no since we left the Garden.  For women that means that we have always been in danger of being ogled, pawed, and raped by men.  (Although men can be raped, too.  Just making my point.)
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It doesn’t matter what women wear, they will still be ogled and they will still be groped and they will still be assaulted.  Women have been wearing skirts and dressing modestly for generations and, guess what, those women are still objectified and worse.
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Why don’t we stop pretending that male anger over women’s dress is the point of this post.  Mr. Archbold wrote about a common behavior that helps men to feel safe in turning women into pieces of meat, as something to be consumed.  A thing there for my consumption can be disposed of as I please.  Some men who say, “Getta loada those knockers!” might never in a million years consider further violating a woman.  But guess what?  That kind of comment helps give safe haven to those who would.
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Thank you again, Mr. Archbold, for being the kind of man who stands up for women.  I hope you are willing to do it no matter *how* she is dressed.

Hi, Corita – I finally found the comment you left on the 14th, I’m sorry it took this long to respond. Thank you for taking a moment to reflect before replying; I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I’m sorry for insulting your style of parenting, I suppose I was being provocative because I did not think you would listen and so – why not shout louder, I thought.
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Regarding the women in church point, I am not the sort to approach a woman and lecture her, or in any way comment, on her style of dress. It would clearly be inappropriate for a number of reasons. Those conversations should be conducted through other channels that respect the women and men involved in them. I do, however, brood in silent resentment, as was the case when I recently went to Mass at a local college and sat behind a whole row of women who were not only chattering (another issue) but all dressed in those God awful leggings which are the subject of this conversation.
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I understand that women who dress in yoga pants are not hostile towards men (though I suspect it occurs to at least a few of them before they go out that men will pay attention to what they see). I get the idea that a woman finds something quick and easy to wear when she’s on her way to the store or the classroom or whatever. Still, while ogling and sartorial decisions are perhaps different (I’m really not convinced ogling is a sign of the hostility of the ogler, even if it feels that way to the ogled woman, and clothing is certainly ‘outward’) I do believe they also bear similarities. They both show a lack of awareness, as you said of the leggings issue, but also, I think, a lack of concern. Of course ignorance and indifference are intimately connected. A woman does not directly experience what it is like, with a male brain, to see a woman’s body, so in order for her to gain at least an approximate understanding, she must make the effort of empathy Sarah described. The same can certainly be said of the ogler, who can only act as he does because he has no conception of the pain he is causing the woman whom he ogles. Hence some of the women in the earliest comments were trying to find ways to make men feel what it’s like to be ogled – for example by ogling them – in order to ‘make them get it’. I understand the impetus. I have been trying to get the women here to see the male perspective – for example by reflecting their dismissive, ridiculing attitude back to them on the ogling question (“Good luck with being objectified”, “Your salvation is not my responsibility”). No dice for either plaintiff unfortunately (actually the women have at least the advantage of a number of men commenting here who do affirm them in their complaints).
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Something in the mind has to open before one makes progress, whether on the question of ogling or of modesty. For example at some point it occurred to Sarah that maybe she did not know what it was like to be male after all. That opening in her mind enabled her to eventually reach her present conclusion. It made her understanding, considerate, and compassionate towards men. By contrast, in my experience, most women take it for granted that they know all there is to know about men – seemingly because they are women, and ‘of course’ women know these things – and so not a few seem to wind up knowing little about us at all, and sound oblivious when they speak about us.
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All this ridiculous talk about being a manly man and a real man and where have all the cowboys gone does nothing but exacerbate this problem. The last thing men need to do is build more John Wayne-style walls between themselves and the outside world. The vastly superior question is this: How can I be human? This question embraces everything I am, including my maleness. The so-called ‘real man’, a manipulated dupe in my opinion, shows himself a pitiful caricature alongside the man who is concerned not so much with being a man as with being truly and brilliantly human – who is not afraid to say, ‘I need’, which is the fundamental position of the human person and not something the ‘real man’ can bring himself to say. I think of my friend Lorenzo whom I doubt has ever cared much about manliness but who cares deeply about being human. Yet he, more than any man I have ever met, never fails to impress upon me, solely by virtue of his presence, the fact that he is a man, a very, very good man, the sort of man I hope to become.
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Anyway – my anger with women does not stem from the fact that they are unaware of men or wear certain clothing or whatever. It comes from the fact that women take for granted that they know everything there is to know about men. Even when you try to tell them, they are so convinced they already know what you are saying, they don’t even bother to listen to you. It’s like talking to an atheist who is certain he already knows what Christianity is. To think, as a man, I am this powerless to make the world hospitable to me is both frightening and infuriating. Women possess civic power now too, so somehow we men must find a way to get you to listen to us and to cooperate. Our failure in this regard has already cost us significant losses in the preceding sixty years.
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I just want to say, in conclusion, that many of the things you said about women’s clothing choices (not hostile, not personal, etc.) could be applied to the question of ogling, in same or similar form. Including recurring anger and resentment, which women demonstrate regularly towards men.
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Thanks, Corita, and God bless you.

Yes Corita, yes.  Thank you for saying it like it is.  Love will prevail. Good day to say it.

Anna Lisa, Corita, as I have been saying, you have to be willing to give love and respect as well as ask it.

“It doesn’t matter what women wear, they will still be ogled and they will still be groped and they will still be assaulted.  Women have been wearing skirts and dressing modestly for generations and, guess what, those women are still objectified and worse.”
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Actually, I think it’s safe to say women in past generations were objectified less than they are now. If it truly did not matter what women wore, you could go without wearing anything, and nothing would get worse for you.

“Actually, I think it’s safe to say women in past generations were objectified less than they are now. If it truly did not matter what women wore, you could go without wearing anything, and nothing would get worse for you.”
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Dear Dustin/David.  And, more importantly, people who might be tempted to agree with that statement:  Women in past generations *in some cultures* wore more clothing.  Some were protected, nurtured and respected by men.  They have also lived in cultures where the amount of clothing mattered little to their treatment.  They have, in numbers on a scale completely unimaginable to most people who never bother thinking about it, been beaten, raped, traded like chattel, sold into sex slavery, deeded as property, silenced, shamed, shunned, drowned for being witches and in other ways abused for being too smart, too outspoken, or too “impure.”  Only a small fraction of that had ANYTHING to do with whether their clothes were correct, according to the standards of the time.
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If you don’t already know this, as a woman it DOES NOT matter what you wear, you will most likely come up against the humiliation of women through degrading jokes, putdowns, groping, coercion, catcalling, and yes, ogling.  It doesn’t matter. what. you . wear.  It still happens.
Old, ugly women in housecoats, minding their own business at home, get raped.  So do women wearing parkas and snowsuits.  So do well-dressed, chaste young women on dates with nice Catholic boys.
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Wait.  Why is this suddenly about rape?  Because of the continuous insistence on putting the burden onto other people.  “She made me feel that way.”  “If she hadn’t have dressed like that it wouldn’t have happened.” 
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Dustin/David, I am sure that there are lots of a-holes in the world.  But I think you have no idea how considerate women can be because you probably make them feel put off and even demeaned by your manner. 
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I love some very good men who struggle mightily with lust.  I think about this topic a great deal.  I even asked my husband to help me see what I wasn’t seeing in your perspective.  But I gotta tell you, what I keep hearing from your comments, besides the desire to be virtuous, is, “Well of course I know I exacerbate the problem with my “habits” BUT if only those women respected me enough to dress better!”.
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I would like to suggest that you know NOTHING about how you can truly feel until your life is more ordered.  Not condescending—as someone who struggles myself with various kinds of disorder—just saying, The anger and resentment you feel are a HUGE clue that you need to work on yourself first before insisting that other people change things for you.
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I do wish you well.

Corita, it sounds like you might be more familiar with theological thinking about human sexuality than I am. Perhaps it’s true that Adam was never aroused in the presence of Eve, except by an act of his own free will, as I believe Aquinas said of our first parents. Still, we are not going to recover that original condition this side of Paradise. Until the Lord comes again, it will continue to be the case - any particularly pure men are more than welcome to correct me - that when a man sees certain things, he is going to become aroused, or at least distracted. On this point, a woman either cares or she doesn’t. Anna Lisa, Corita, and others simply don’t give a damn. As Corita says, she is not dressing for me or any of her brothers in Christ. She is dressing for herself, and only herself. If this doesn’t work for me, she says, then obviously the answer is that I grow in heroic virtue on the dimensions of patience and chastity. And if that doesn’t work, Corita goes on, then I should make like Benedict and his monks from the story and go somewhere else, which is to say, withdraw from society. The implication seems to be that as a normal sinful man I do not have a place here any longer - society belongs exclusively to women and is now dominated solely by their concerns, down to the last detail. If I have a problem with that, Corita literally tells me to leave the society. Otherwise I can walk around in public with my head bowed or looking for some spot where there are no women, if, by the mercy of God, I can find such a place. Hence my place in society is one of humiliation. I can’t help but feel that if there is any message the women here mean to communicate to me, it’s this: “You lose. Completely. And there is nothing you can do about it. This is our society now.”
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So maybe it’s not about yoga pants after all. Maybe it’s about power. This may not explain why the average woman wears yoga pants, but it seems to explain Corita and Anna Lisa’s dogged defense of them, a defense that literally goes to the extent of pushing me out of society altogether, and refusing to validate anything I have to say (actually they insult me for speaking - I’m a creep, I’m irresponsible, I’m immature, etc.).
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“Why don’t we stop pretending that male anger over women’s dress is the point of this post.” Let’s go further - let’s stop pretending that male anger over any issue at all is ever the point of anything.

I know I said I wouldn’t address you again, but okay.  LAST time “David”: Quit ogling women and get some help for the rage, control issues and sexual problems that come with ogling.  Only a troll would tell a woman with eight kids that she needs to grow a heart because she likes her pants. Do you wear pants? I’m glad you don’t know where I live (shiver).

Anna Lisa, you’re a hypocrite. Your words are meaningless to me.

Wow, I appreciate everyone’s insightful comments, but I can’t believe you have the time to write paragraphs and paragraphs when everyone is probably too prideful of their own opinions to have their mindsets changed by someone on a comment feed who they’ve never met.

My final comment is in the spam filter right now.

How on earth did this combox devolve into a modesty back and forth?

I for one, am growing tired of the skirt vs. pants on women discussion in Catholic comboxes.

The Church, which speaks infallibly on matters of faith and morals, does not dictate exactly how either men or women should dress to avoid leading others to sin, so neither should other commenters. 

The reality is, a person with a well formed conscience should examine this issue in his or her heart and dress accordingly.  If a man or woman sees the opposite sex dressed in a manner that does lead another to sin, then pray for him or her , offer your own suffering with lust for the souls in purgatory, confess, and try again.

Unfortunately, these are times when many people do not have well formed consciences and therefore dress in a manner that could easily lead to lust.  If this struggle with lust applies to you, know that God picked you for this time and place knowing that this would be a huge struggle.  Turn to Jesus and OFFER him your struggles with lust and He will use it for the strengthening of His Kingdom.  Please do this instead of feeling anger toward those who, through a poorly formed conscience or just a willfully sinful act, dress in a way that easily causes lust.

Deb, what is your moral advice for the women here?
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The question of which forms of dress, exactly, lead to sin are not some grand subjective problem - this is an obfuscation, cover fire designed to shield a retreat from the problem. Men are pretty much on the same page about yoga pants, tight jeans, short skirts, and the like.
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The willfully sinful act that provokes me is not the style of dress so much as the obstinate refusal to give any serious consideration to anything men have to say about this or most other subjects that are sources of grief in the relationship between the sexes.
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Women who pontificate to men about their moral problems, while refusing to hear the male side of the story, have little credibility in this discussion. Anna Lisa, for example, offers harsh words - harsh words being unintelligent on their own - but has yet to affirm even one small thing I’ve said. She doesn’t offer any reasoning. Perhaps I’m a little nuts after all but at least I do offer reasons, at least I offer thoughts, at least I acknowledge some things women say. Anna Lisa falls back on knee-jerk shaming tactics, name-calling, and pious platitudes she herself doesn’t take seriously.

Dustin, I’m sorry about your grief.  I’m sorry that you are suffering.  I work out my deficits with God, in the confessional and those I live with.  I have never had to live your life.  My “flippant” attitude has less to do with you, than with the fact that this is still being discussed.  I am truly sorry if I added to your pain.  Deb was more patient, and I think offered a compassionate, and sound solution.  I know God loves you as much as he loves me and my daughter.  Peace.

Corita - The problem with disqualifying me from this discussion on the basis of the disorder of my soul is that we are all, more or less, thus disqualified, yourself included. So maybe you are right, Corita, but then, once again, this is something you could just as easily have said of yourself or Anna Lisa.
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Look, we are clearly not getting anywhere in this discussion, only angrier and more frustrated with each other. I regret any words I’ve spoken that have caused you offense, Corita, because I actually think you are a woman who speaks in good faith and with reason, though we don’t agree on much of anything, haha.
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If you’ve time, interest, and don’t mind, I’d be curious to know your husband’s thoughts. Otherwise, the best for you and yours.

@Corita, I just read what you said about the “fall”.  Excellent.  Thank you.  My kids are fighting right now—one wants cartoons and the other one who wouldn’t eat her lunch wants Cheerios…workin’ on that patience!;)

In summary, ogling is not good, and that which is not good is not from God. So we need to choose between doing so and offending our Holy Lord—or not. Excusing onself for doing so because the other sex or other people of the same sex are doing so is spiritually wreckless and could place our souls in a worse place. As is intentionally arounsing the desires of others. Temptations of the flesh happen to each of us - they are yet another opportunity to prove our love for God by resisting temptation, or not—and the result of this battle is what God holds each of us accoutable for - therein lies the truth.

@Dustin
You are being very specific: i.e. yoga pants, tight jeans, and short skirts.  The Church, who would be infallible on this matter, does not dare be as specific as you.  First, there are different type of stretchy fabric pants: which can we allow?  How short is too short on a skirt: to the knee?  One centimeter above the knee?  How tight is too tight in jeans?  Jesus warned of getting into such discussions as a matter of spirituality. It’s Pharisaical.
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In my experience, some men struggle with ogling more than others.  This is not to say any style of dress is alright and men need to deal, instead, that everyone has a different cross.  The average woman’s outfit of shirt and pants is not a struggle for all men.  But, for some men it is.  For some men, a floor length hospital gown still incites lust- that is their cross.  Our crosses are an opportunity for God’s abundant grace.  Take the cross of being too attracted to women in what is average apparel and place it at the foot of The Cross.  Pray for yourself and for the other woman.  Confess your sins and try again.  God wants you here in this time and place to build His Kingdom.  Don’t fritter that gift away arguing about yoga pants that will be out of style in 10 years.

@Dustin
I care very much how men feel on the topic of dress being a wife and a mother of sons.  I just refuse to claim the authority to declare thick knit sweatpants okay and thin knit sweatpants gravely immoral.
I have a question: if my original post was under the name dave, would you have accused me of obfuscation and neglect of men’s feeling?  Why did you immediately assume “obstinate refusal to give any serious consideration to anything men have to say about this or most other subjects”?  Are those harsh words aimed at me because I am a woman?

“Men are pretty much on the same page about yoga pants, tight jeans, short skirts, and the like.”
The Church, which is infallible in the matters of faith and morals, does not ever get this specific about clothes.  On knit pants: How thin or thick must the knit be to be acceptable?  How tight is too tight for jeans? How short of skirt is too short?  Above mid-calf? To the knee? One centimeter above the knee?  And when these items go out of fashion will the Church come out again and argue what people allowed to wear?  Jesus warned against being this Pharisaical. 
Some men struggle with ogling more than others.  This is not to say that whatever a woman chooses to wear is necessarily good, but that we are given different crosses.  Some men are incited to lust through the average shirt and pants on a woman. Others are not.  Some men are incited to lust seeing a woman in a hospital gown.  If the average shirt and pants on a woman causes a man to lust he has the tremendous opportunity to place this suffering at the foot of The Cross.  God knew some men would struggle with extreme lust in our current culture, and he allows such men to live with this suffering.  Pray for those who cause you suffering, confess, and try again.  What great good this reaction does for Christendom.
Women need to dress keeping in mind their dignity and the dignity of their brothers in Christ.  If dressing in a manner that draws attention is a cross for a woman, then she, too, needs to pray for herself, confess, and try again.  God knows her struggle with the need for inordinate attention and yet allows her to live in a time and place that glorifies such behavior.  Offering up this cross is also a tremendous gift for Christendom.

Hi, Deb - I’m sorry - in fact the severity of my words had very little to do with you, and the ‘obstinate refusal’ line had nothing to do with you at all. However, it is absolutely something I’d have said to a man. I am surprised that so far I haven’t had to.
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Your comment was measured, thoughtful, and true. It was good advice that I appreciated hearing. The issue I took with it is that it was typical of what a man will hear when attempting to explain something about the male perspective (inasmuch, that is, as he is actually able to do so). It goes like this: I say ‘x’ is difficult or unjust; in response someone else, male or female, says, ‘This is the Christian way to face difficulties and injustices as an individual’. It’s not that this reaction is wrong. It’s that it doesn’t address the actual nature of ‘x’ - whether it is in fact unjust or difficult, and what should be said of those parties whose responsibility it is that ‘x’ is present in the first place. It tends to means the stated problem hasn’t been taken seriously. Otherwise the second person would complain with the first to someone or something in the outside world, rather than face him directly and give him advice while leaving this outside someone or something unaddressed.
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That’s why I asked about your advice for women who complain about ogling. You could, for example, say something like this:
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‘If a man ogles you, then pray for him and offer the suffering he has caused you for the souls in purgatory. If you struggle with angry thoughts as a result of this mistreatment, confess them, and try to do better next time.
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‘Unfortunately, these are times when many people do not have well formed consciences and therefore speak in a degrading manner that could easily lead others to unholy anger. If this struggle with anger applies to you, know that God picked you for this time and place knowing that this would be a huge struggle. Turn to Jesus and OFFER him your struggles and He will use it for the strengthening of His Kingdom. Please do this instead of feeling anger toward those who, through a poorly formed conscience or just a willfully sinful act, treat you in a manner that is sexually degrading.’
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It is great advice, but it is also a great shut down.

Deb - I love your answer, and I accept it as a response to the comment that showed up afterwards (mine, I mean).

Deb, Thank you again for your discernment.  I have kids from 24 to 2, so I am navigating these questions with (some)fear (I’m human), joy, and mostly trust in God. Yes, our current age is a difficult one. You affirm what I have been taught as well. What I love about a good confessor is that he is able to reason with me, and place emphasis on that joyful “yes” which should not ever be reduced to a “negation” to what is bad, but a beautiful “yes” to the love and joy that God intended for us.  When I was a much younger wife and mother, I was tempted at times to “Puritanism” that was pushed upon me by well intending people.  My good and holy confessor shut that down completely and explained to me that this is a temptation.  I credit him with helping me get back in alignment with the joy and complete abandonment to love that my husband and I share, and that God intended for us.  What a blessing.  It wasn’t always easy, and I do think evil tempts from both sides, but I refuse to give evil credit, (lust is a counterfeit) and marvel over how heaven is likened to nuptial bliss.

Actually I as a male have been pawed by women in public much to the chagrin of my lovely wife.

I also have a soap box, when I’m on mine, my friends tell me to get off!

You gotta chill. We’re not robots, hot chicks are fun to check out. Distasteful? Sinful? Ineloquent? I imagine God smirks when admire God’s creation. You ought to chill with the rigid thoughts and stop pretending we live in a world in which men don’t have urges to check out the ladies

I applaud Dustin for having the courage to lay bare his struggles with purity…and for daring to say things even when they elicit responses of contempt from modern woman.

I applaud those women in the thread who have managed to look past their outrage long enough to actually hear what Dustin was trying to say…and maybe, just maybe, even attempt to empathize a little. (I’m always surprised at how difficult that is, seeing as we constantly hear about how much more empathetic the female of the species is.)

I’m disappointed, however, that it’s been so hard to reach a point of even minimal give-and-take. The way to address this issue seems clear enough to me:

MEN—Stop your ogling, and start to learn about custody of the eyes. Pray for an increase in purity. Offer up your struggles and let go of your resentments.

WOMEN—Stop your teenage solipsism, and start to learn that how you present yourself to the world is even more about respect for others than it is about you. Pray for an increase in modesty. Offer up your struggles and let go of your resentments.

BOTH SIDES—Try to accomplish all of the above without ever uttering the word “pants”.

It really ought to be that simple.

@Dustin
Sorry if my comment seems as a “great shut down”.  But what other choice do we have?  Going up to every woman that is causes a man to lust and telling her that her clothing choices incite lust will not be effective in 95% of cases, especially if she is in pants and a shirt (and yes, the pants and the shirt might be too tight, but that is where the well formed conscience comes in).  Getting angry at women in general because they seem to ignore/neglect men’s feelings on this issue isn’t working either. So, again, what choice do you, in your situation have, but to take it to the Cross and pray?  Pray for the ladies!  We need your prayers to shun the desire for inordinate attention that is glorified in this culture.  Only this is the call to sainthood.

An interesting trip through the combox… I will keep my comments to the original article….
Good, interesting post - dare I say that my experience with these things even offers a bit of hope!....

I see a great deal of ogling of women in my line of work - where I deal w/men in real estate, finance, technology, media; a lot of entrepreneurs. Faced with an “ogling moment,” I find that a comment that starts with myself - about how hard it is not to ogle in this day and age - and keeping it light without condemning, usually gets a lot of traction. It even creates a space to say something like, “the first look is natural, it’s the second look that’s the sin.” And quite often, it leads to a conversation, that can often end with some insight into the great payoff (marriage, relationships, being a father to boys/girls, God, sex…) that this kind of discipline brings.

I think it important to be lighthearted, but don’t back down. That’s what gentlemen of old would do, as the knights did before them. Because deep down, that’s what men want to be. That’s how the cycle gets broken. It’s not about repression, or just suffering. It’s about pointing out an alternative - one that’s actually good for men. An alternative that - conveniently! providentially! - turns out to be good for women too.

Chivalry is the answer. Just imagine what kind of men we’d be, and what kind of civilization we could create if we channeled all of that ogle/porn energy into our vocations. I find that it’s difficult for a man to answer that kind of question/challenge by going back to a woman’s appearance.

Deb, as I said in some prior comment now buried some miles above, I would not approach a strange woman and comment on her style of dress.
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What can we do? Deb, this is frustrating. How many times do I have to say this to you or any of the women here? What on earth are you about, anyway? One thing that you could do is help me rather than telling me to shut up and pray about it.
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Again, let’s turn your comment around and see where it goes.
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“Sorry if my comment seems as a “great shut down”.  But what other choice do we have?  Going up to every man that ogles a woman and telling him that his words are hurtful will not be effective in 95% of cases.  Getting angry at men in general because they seem to ignore/neglect women’s feelings on this issue isn’t working either. So, again, what choice do you, in your situation have, but to take it to the Cross and pray?  Pray for the gents!  We need your prayers to shun the desire for sex that is glorified in this culture.  Only this is the call to sainthood.”
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I am so sick and tired of getting shut down and ignored in this conversation. So utterly sick and tired of it.

Just this morning, before reading your blog, I was looking in the mirror and feeling pretty grateful that I am losing my looks.  Yeah, I said it.  Because when I was young I was a beautiful woman.  And with that came a great deal of unwelcome attention that caused me a lot of discomfort and sometimes pain over the years.  I was literally thinking, “thank God no one shouts at me on the street any more.”  No one looks at me like a dessert standing before him.  No one makes lewd comments to me or propositions me at all.  Thank God. How nice it would have been if men could have left me alone and not related to me like an object.  For better or worse, my son recalls those days (the presence of my child certainly didn’t stop some of those beasts from making comments) and has become quite the advocate for Theology of the Body and expecting young men to be true gentlemen. Hiding behind my aging mask of a face I will continue to pray for the conversion of the world.  Maybe gentlemanly behavior will make a comeback.

@Dustin
  On the contrary, I am not ignoring you at all.  And I am confused how you see that as so.  I really feel sorry for men in this culture and it is my sex who is causing them pain, whether willfully or not.
    What is it that you want to do to make instead of pray and offer it up to make it better?  I guess I didn’t see where you suggested a solution, if you did.  Please tell me what you need to be doing to change this.
    Women can do more than just pray for men, they can dress appropriately.  They can pray for themselves for the strength to truly love their brothers in Christ.  They can confess when they think they’ve led a man into the sin of lust.
  But here is where I was confused with your past posts-let me give you a scenario.  Many woman are curvy or large breasted by nature.  Let’s say such a woman dresses for Mass in the morning in a sweater.  Because of larger breasts this sweater does not fit her like tent.  She asks her husband, who by nature is less of an ogler than other men, if this sweater is appropriate (because she values her husband and is concerned with the dignity of her brother’s in Christ) and he tells her it is fine.  It is crewneck and falls to her hip.  This couple goes to Mass. While at Mass, a good man who struggles more with incitement to lust than this woman’s husband notices her in the sweater and instantly notices her large breast and lusts.  Can he really be angry with her?  Short of a burka, this man would have noticed her shape.  This woman cannot help that her breast are large and a tent would be immodest in the other direction.  I argue that in this case, this man has one option, offer it up and pray.  Until a man knows what is written on the heart of a woman, he should pray before anger.

I have been thinking a lot about what causes the response that Dustin calls a “shut down.”  Not to listen, not to tell of the compassion that we who have been responding do have in our hearts.  I can’t speak for anyone else, but something Dustin wrote made me think of it.  He wrote repeatedly about how women don’t seem to care.  In particular, he said, they seem to care not one bit about his pain, about his arousal. 
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I guess what I want to say is that men should be careful with this topic.  The history of our sinful nature includes a great deal of male demands that women take responsibility for male arousal.  That they respond to it.  That they help eliminate it by being willing sex partners or by hiding themselves under layers of clothing.  That *they, women* pay attention to it.right.now. and be quick about it, and be quiet about it, too.  This is not something from G-d.  This is the warping of the male nature that was meant to protect with its strength, into something bullying and narcissistic and led by the sex drive rather than the mind.
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Women have holy jobs, too, and some of it involves special consideration for men.  But men have, throughout the history of our Fallen lives, tried to demand that women give themselves over to taking care/paying attention to/considering/being responsible for *male* arousal.  Even when your message hsa truth in it, women are sick and tired of being told by men to pay more attention to their arousal.
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It is understood by compassionate, devout women (there are more than you think) that a man will feel pain in his struggles with lust.  But all women, being here on this earth, can’t help but know history, and their own lives, which includes an abundance of demands—implied or intrusively obvious—that she respond in some way to a man’s arousal.  That she be the recipient of his announcements of it.  That she respond when he tells her about it.  That she hear about it endlessly, cooperate with it or shut it down, or somehow aid in its completion.  It is the constant background noise of a young woman’s life, as Mary Ann is saying above.  It is the basis for so much violence, in the whole of human history.  And it is true today, too.  If not of an individual woman, it is true for her younger/prettier/more oppressed sisters. 
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Woman are not cold-hearted.  They just want to be human beings, and not have to be constantly reminded that men are aroused by them.  Not have to be constantly adjusting their faces/voices/clothing/eye contact to either attract or repel the arousal of men.  It’s tiring.  I mean, each man has his own to contend with, but each woman has the possible & potential arousal of every.living.male. to deal with.
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We get sick of it, too.  And if you insist on entering a conversation demanding to be heard, to be acknowledged for your arousal, you really should just stop being surprised at the response you get.  If you talk like that to women, you really *should* expect to get slapped in some way.

To clarify, wherever my last comment says, “you,” I am speaking generally, not to Dustin or anyone else specifically. 

And, @ Mary Ann, thanks for your perspective.  I think my last comment brought me finally back to how this discussion ties into ogling.

Last but not least, I put on some velvet jeans this morning.  The ones that never fail to make my husband of 26 years giddy, bury his face in my hair and say, “Thank you for wearing those”.

@Corita
Yes, what you wrote resonated with me, too.  I have been swallowing that gut response the whole time I have posted.  Many woman ARE NOT walking around trying to arouse men.  These women wear what is considered to be average, non-arousing, clothes.  Husbands confirm these feelings.  Yet, some men will still be aroused and they have no right to be angry at these types of women.  Until a man knows what is on a woman’s heart, he must pray and offer up his arousal before being angry at women.

Well said.  I’ve never understood how any man with a daughter could think it okay to ogle someone else’s daughter.  However, I also realize it’s very much a part of entertainment as well.  Driving home tonight I tried to stay awake listening to our local country station (only one that comes in out here) and was appalled that the three songs I endured before driving in silence ALL had to do with a guy wanting more time with a good-looking woman he just met.  I won’t go into the rest of the not-so-subtle insinuations.  It made me sick.  Thanks for a addressing the issue.

Deb - as far as I’m concerned you are the heroine in this conversation. Anyway, I’d like to respond to you first.
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First, my answer to your second paragraph is your third paragraph. Those few, simple, direct words - they were all I needed. I wanted one of you women to show that she heard what I was saying, to take my side, and to object with me to the bad things I’m seeing. That’s it. That’s all I wanted. I wish I could get a little more like this from the others, but I guess I have to take what I can get at this point so - thank you.
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Okay, so your scenario. The woman you described, curvy and wearing a crewneck sweater. It’s no problem. She can’t help having these features, and anyway, ‘these features’ are not a problem to be solved. Here is something that might happen if I saw her at Mass: I’d see her and maybe because of her curves remind myself to pay attention to the events unfolding in the sanctuary. Done. If I noticed her clothing I would think that she dressed nicely - and feel guilty for having come wearing jeans - and that’s really about it.
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For the woman who cares about modesty, when she dresses, she should just ask God for help understanding what to wear, open the closet door, and pick out her clothes. Done. You can only do what you can do. Asking anything more is unreasonable. The rest is up to us guys and to the God on whom we depend for help. You’ve done your part, thank you so much for caring enough to keep us in mind, God knows you could have dressed any way you wanted, what a thoughtful and considerate woman you must be - please tell me, what may I do to make your life easier, too?
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Look, I’m not trying to write ‘Lord Dustin’s Guide to Modest Attire’, copyright 1947. I’m saying that what passes for fashion these days conveys to me very clearly that respect or consideration for men is just not on the radar for most women. It isn’t like women don’t know what turns men on. They do. It just doesn’t make a difference to them whether they are turning on every man they see, and I’m right to see in this a disrespect for men.

Corita, I take your words to heart and thank you for helping me see a woman’s point of view here. I will keep them in mind as I go about my life the next few weeks. In light of what you say, I can understand better what you mean when you say this is a topic that should be handled with care.
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Obviously women aren’t responsible for providing all the answers to male arousal - whether to “cooperate with it or shut it down, or somehow aid in its completion”. It is wrong for a man to demand a response from a woman to his sexuality or even to present the fact of his arousal to her in an inconsiderate, disrespectful, or otherwise inappropriate manner. It didn’t occur to me that it would not be obvious to the women here that I take these things for granted. In the same way, it was not obvious to me that you cared. Clearly we are coming to the discussion from very different perspectives and it seems to me we are both fed up with what we see in the world in ways much broader than this tiny dot called ‘yoga pants’.
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I don’t want woman to agonize about their clothing choices. That’s never been my position. Worrying about these things quickly becomes unhealthy. As I said to Deb, if a woman friend were, say, to tell me she had made a quick prayer this morning before she dressed, I’d be really impressed - and grateful. Just to care a little, to allow us men in a general way to cross her mind - it would mean a lot to me, speaking of course as a man. This moment’s consideration would make all the difference to me, if only I knew it were happening more often in our sad, dark little world that is so painful for all of us. It’s hard for me to see it happening out there, in that sea of yoga pants that makes me stare lamely at the ground on the way to class.
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As I said to Deb, I don’t hold it against women that they have - horror of horrors - women’s bodies. Clearly I have a lust problem because at some point when I was a boy I discovered that women’s bodies were good. Too bad I didn’t know what good meant, when I first came upon porn those years ago. I wish that moment never happened.
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Well, anyway, I’m sorry for having unleashed the Wrath of Khan here, it perhaps wasn’t necessary but as I think the women here can understand from their own perspective there was a lot I had to say and it wasn’t all about pants.

Corita, I care about what you’re saying, and it sounds like you care about what I’m saying - this is almost becoming an episode of Barney - St. Francis, pray for us - it just sounds like we are probably both tired of living in a world that doesn’t seem to hear our respective concerns. I don’t know if you would agree with that but it’s what I’ve taken from the last steps of the discussion.

@Dustin
  Thank you for your reply.  I will be praying for you and men who struggle with the same cross you do.  I know a few personally.
  Rest assured there are women who say a little prayer when they look in the closet.  Try to remember that before you are moved to anger.  I personally pray that I remain attractive to my husband but look no further, ever, for validation.
  May God richly bless you.

Deb - I agree, there is no reason to look to men in general for validation about their appearance or anything else.
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Thanks for your responses, I sincerely wish you the best.

Dustin,

Appreciated reading your thoughts here.  Several women have worn you down here without really addressing your very valid points.  It doesn’t matter how many valid points you bring up, they will continue simply to talk against you and not your points.  They will simply continue to talk and talk and talk…like dripping rain.  In the proper context this is a beautiful gift that women have - dripping rain can be a beautiful thing.  In this setting, however, it is shown to be a curse and I pity you for bearing the brunt of it - dripping rain can also be a slowly destructive force, and you appear to be exhausted.  The rain shows no sign of letting up however.

This is so very true. I love this article. The last line is amazing. And the point about not saying anything about a woman that cant be said infront of your wife or kids, is so well put. Bravo! And I enjoy your social commentary. Thank you, from Canada

While I understand the intent of this article, I fear that like most other statements on morality it will be taken to the extreme (e.g. political correctness). Ogling is not defined in your article and hence the problem. In fact the definition of ogling includes looking at with interested attention. What, may I ask is wrong with that? Your article makes no distinction in the various definitions of ogling. In fact your title says “I hate ogling”! Good for you! But, with all due respect, keep your opinions to yourself. And if your reply is “that’s not the kind of ogling I was talking about”, then rewrite the article.
Look, insulting and degrading comments made by a man as he looks at a woman are totality inappropriate. But a “look” and even a comment to the effect that a woman looks really pretty, absent the vulgarity, is perfectly fine, if not appropriate or even welcomed. To the women who feel that even such conduct is still inappropriate, then I would argue that their puritanical view creates a standard that is not only unrealistic but probably not even followed by the “sons” and “husband” they claim would never do such a thing. Such women would be the kind that would promote a political correctness that it is better to keep one’s head down and look at the floor than pass an admiring glance or, heaven forbid, a stare. Either that or they are simply insecure. Remember that Our Lord made it clear that it is wrong to look at a woman with lust. But there is nothing wrong with a look that is done out of respectful admiration or appreciation of beauty. And that would apply to the married and single men out there. But when the lecturers, the “bloggers” out there have to tell us what is right or wrong with how we act - then that is when problems start. We all know what is appropriate and not - Our Lord gave us conscious and the great tool of prayer to guide us. We do not need man made politically correct standards. So be careful when you preach.

For those who believe it is OK to look a for a while to appreciate God’s beautiful creation, this is the slippery slope. Sounds rationally good and decent and appreciative of God, but in reality does not work for most men. Certainly you cannot avoid looking if someone enters your field of vision, but you need to turn away in the next second.  If you do not want to go to Minneapolis, do not take the bus to Minneapolis.  We are talking staining the soul here, and unnecessarily taking on the same sin to confession again.

James, do you know how utterly ridiculous you sound. Once someone comes into your field of vision you need to turn away in the next second? What planet are you from. You and the author of this article are taking us down the path of censorship and mind control. So let me get this straight? We are to turn off the Miss America pagents that appear on tv - or for that matter any show which has an attractive female appear. Now don’t go to the beach, your head will be doing so much turning, your neck will snap. You and the author espouse a philosophy that assigns no self control to man. Your “most men” comment is demaning and insulting. Maybe it is you and/or the author of this blog that lack control. It is my opinion that “most men” are strong enough, yes, man enough to control themselves and draw a distinction between appreciation and lust. That is why we are all blessed with the gift or prayer and the assistance of the Saints and Holy Spirit to provide us with grace when we do feel week - we do not need man made rules like that espoused by the author in his last paragraph or you in the “slippery slpoe” concept. Those who replace the Lord’s Rules with their own are neither true Catholic or Christian.

James, do you know how utterly ridiculous you sound. Once someone comes into your field of vision you need to turn away in the next second? What planet are you from. You and the author of this article are taking us down the path of censorship and mind control. So let me get this straight? We are to turn off the beauty pageants that appear on tv - or for that matter any show which has an attractive female appear. Now don’t go to the beach, your head will be doing so much turning, your neck will snap. You and the author espouse a philosophy that assigns no self control to man. Your “most men” comment is demeaning and insulting. Maybe it is you and the author of this blog that lack control. It is my opinion that “most men” are strong enough, yes, man enough to control themselves and draw a distinction between appreciation and lust. That is why we are all blessed with the gift or prayer and the assistance of the Saints and Holy Spirit to provide us with grace when we do feel week - we do not need man made rules like that espoused by the author in his last paragraph or you in the “slippery slope” concept. Temptation will always exist, and when we are adult enough to realize that we may not be able to overcome temptation, then we pray. But to set down these look away rules is just plain ignorant.

Corita and Deb,read the Donna Steichen article on feminism at the Crisis magazine website. I’m not the biggest fan of this author, but scroll down to the comments and read about the reasons that someone gave for having undying *hatred* for Pope JP2 (and Alice Von Hildebrand).  It will freak you out.  I *won’t* be sharing that one with my daughter! I don’t want her to *ever* read such words.  They sound like they were written from Hell.  Some men struggle with ogling.  Others actually seethe with hatred for them, and put a cloak of piety on over it. (shiver)

Part of this is the fault of us women!  Even as a woman myself I can’t help noticing (and being disgusted at) the cleavage and tight pants on many women…do we really need to see your rear end move as you walk?  I think it’s visually too much information (TMI).  Why make yourself a spectacle to perverts and tempt the few good men left?

Part of this is the fault of us women!  Even as a woman myself I can’t help noticing (and being disgusted at) the cleavage and tight pants on many women…do we really need to see your rear end move as you walk?  I think it’s visually too much information (TMI).  Why make yourself a spectacle to perverts and tempt the few good men left?  I have taken to wearing long skirts and modest shirts myself.

Anna Lisa, I’m starting to connect the dots. Your husband, you, your daughter. Your reactions to me. Your daughter’s words. Your insistence on yoga pants. Your husband’s ‘never failing to get giddy’. The picture makes sense. I get it. You always get your way, don’t you?
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See? I can get nasty and personal, too.
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Enough with the drama, the hysterics, and the manipulations already. You’re full of !@#$%. There’s more than one person around here who needs some help.

Bucky - thanks, thanks, and more thanks. It’s true I got about an ounce of traction with these ladies, but then, I wonder, if we men just keep giving up in these discussions, is anything going to change? Tell me if I’m mistaken, but when it comes to the larger social discourse between the sexes, it appears the women have won by default - the men have given up trying to deal with them and are withdrawing altogether. What women want, they seem to get, and there’s no sign they plan to stop advancing their position, and no sign men plan to stop retreating.

I’d encourage the men here to read a book called ‘Women Can’t Hear What Men Don’t Say’ by Warren Farrell. It’s very informative and this discussion is exemplary of many things the book talks about.

anna lisa, I found the article you mentioned.  Prayers are going out all around.

Dustin—you forget yourself again.  If any person insists on beginning or entering a conversation with words full of seething anger—directed at members *of* the conversation—and demanding a particular response from the other(s)present, s/he is likely to fail utterly at making a point or advancing the cause.
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Conversation is—or should be, to my mind—and act of love.  If you treat it as less then there is no reason to expect any response.  It becomes, in fact, an act of war and is something else entirely.  Or is war what you want?
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You can’t blame it on male/female problems, either.  It would be true on a very basic level no matter what gender the players were.  Being a man talking about certain topics with women does ramp up the tension, certainly, for all the reasons I mentioned before.  But, come on.  If you are at war with women then obviously every woman you see is apt to become an enemy.

That was disgusting.

Corita, are you really and truly this dishonest? Is there a shred of integrity at the bottom of your soul?

Just read all this. Couldn’t help but think: well-formed women [men]  vs well-formed conscience. Also, change a few words and this is yet again the discussion of same-sex attraction [though not proved innate] vs made-in-God’s-image with a free will to combat occasions of sin. Unfortunately the majority of young folks in this country would read all this and say SO WHAT?  The plethora of females vs the dearth of eligible potential mates explains the attention-getting dress [actually undress] of females. “Look at me, babe, so I don’t end up a spinster”.

In the current issue of THE AMERICAN FEMINIST is an article entitled “Humanity Through the Lens of Pornography,” which makes the point that “pornography” that objectifies women includes much more than what we have come to know as “hard core porn” and “soft core porn.” This article refers to Naomi Watts’s book THE BEAUTY MYTH which discusses the marketing and glamorization of supposedly flawless standards of beauty in publications, in the media, etc. and calls this “beauty pornography,”  because it objectifies women just like hard core porn.  Our young women, including teenagers, even including pre-teens in middle school are victims of this “beauty porn” - they dress intentionally so as to be ogled and leered at-this is not an accident, this is what the their culture has told them is good. Watts says this “Cultural representation of glamorized degradation has created a situation among the young in which boys rape and girls get raped as a normal course of events.” Natasha Walter’s book LIVING DOLLS also deals with, inter alia, how young women dress today and its terrible effects. Laura Lederer says it has become “glamorous” for women to be used and abused as they are in pornography.
Link to this article: http://www.feministsforlife.org/taf/index.htm

(Part II) @Dustin- After centuries of second-class citizenship, they don’t want to part with this external symbol of freedom and independence. And here you’re talking to the (relatively small) group of women who don’t extend that symbol of freedom and independence to include promiscuity (also obviously banned for centuries for women but encouraged for men) and see the virtue of dressing modestly in the house of God. In other words, you’re stuck with the status quo if not worse. And, I know it’ll be hard to hear, but the author on the soapbox is right (and, probably for a reason- in many cases, those who feel the need to speak out have some personal experience with the very affliction they put down). Every minute you spend with pornography changes your brain (studies have shown it affects the same receptors as cocaine) and makes it increasingly difficult for you to function independently of the stimulus (just because other addictive supplements are readily available doesn’t make you use them, right?). Oggling girls has the same effect, albeit at a lighter dose. (Please read part III)

(Part 1) @Dustin- I admire your guts to pour out your heart here. You’ve brought up some good points- as Catholics we are taught to care about our fellow man (in the gender-neutral sense) and, as the testimonials of Sara et al. can attest, a woman’s mind works differently than a male’s and so many good Catholic women (who, btw as my girl would attest often dress for women not men) take it upon themselves to do the charitable thing for guys and dress modestly. And yes, what is socially acceptable clothing has changed dramatically in the past 50 years not to mention the past couple of centuries (I doubt a woman born in 1900 would approve of her daughter wearing yoga pants to go to the store). Corita and others’ steadfast defense of wearing whatever they find comfortable, however, is more than understandable given that the recent changes to women’s clothing came along with (and have become intertwined with) the women’s liberation movement. -please read part 2

(Part 3) Dustin- Anger towards girls, society, etc. only hurts the person carrying it, and, in this case, might make it easier to do what you know is wrong. And that’s ultimately the thing. You are clearly well-read in Catholic literature. Yes our baser instincts are to lay with many women, but you know that we are more than the sum of our cells, more than animals. We are moral creatures created in God’s image. And so, the only choice that you have, is to cut the stimulus out from your life- not for girls in general but for God, for yourself, and for your future wife. Your future wife, by the way, if she’s God’s match for you, will understand your past and help you without judging you and, if you’re lucky, will find it all the more reaffirming in her faith to dress modestly in public despite knowing full well that she is a full equal to you and can walk around in her bathing suit if she so pleases. I realize all too well that it is difficult. But it gets easier with every stimulus-free day. Prayer certainly helps as does forcing yourself to confess to your Priest every time you waver. Just visualize meeting your future wife one day and being able to tell her about how you quit and became a better (in your own moral judgment) man.

Part I, Dustin, I admire your guts to pour out your heart here. You’ve brought up some good points- as Catholics we are taught from birth to care about our fellow man (in the gender-neutral sense) and, as the testimonials of Sara et al. can attest, a woman’s mind works differently than a male’s and so many good Catholic women (who, btw as my girl would attest often dress for women not men) take it upon themselves to do the charitable thing for guys and dress modestly. And yes, what is socially acceptable clothing has changed dramatically in the past 50 years not to mention the past couple of centuries (I doubt a woman born in 1900 would approve of her daughter wearing yoga pants to go to the store). However, Corita and others’ steadfast defense of wearing whatever they find comfortable, is more than understandable given that the recent changes to women’s clothing came along with (and have become intertwined with) the women’s liberation movement.

Part one finally got through. Dustin, I admire your guts to pour out your heart here. You’ve brought up some good points. As Catholics we are taught from birth to care about our fellow man (in the gender-neutral sense) and, as the testimonials of Sara et al. can attest, a woman’s mind works differently than a male’s and so many good Catholic women (who, btw as my girl would attest often dress for women not men) take it upon themselves to do the charitable thing for guys and dress modestly. And yes, what is socially acceptable clothing has changed dramatically in the past fifty years not to mention the past couple of centuries (I doubt a woman born in the nineteenth century would approve of her daughter wearing yoga pants to go to the store). However, Corita and others’ steadfast defense of wearing whatever they find comfortable, is more than understandable given that the recent changes to women’s clothing came along with (and have become intertwined with) the women’s liberation movement. Please see part two.

Dear D, I admire your guts to pour out your heart here. You’ve brought up some good points- as Catholics we are taught to care about our fellow man (in the gender-neutral sense) and, as the testimonials of Sara et al. can attest, a woman’s mind works differently than a male’s and so many good Catholic women (who, btw as my girl would attest often dress for women not men) take it upon themselves to do the charitable thing for guys and dress modestly. And yes, what is socially acceptable clothing has changed dramatically in the past 50 years not to mention the past couple of centuries (I doubt a woman born in 1900 would approve of her daughter wearing yoga pants to go to the store). Corita and others’ steadfast defense of wearing whatever they find comfortable, however, is more than understandable given that the recent changes to women’s clothing came along with (and have become intertwined with) the women’s liberation movement. After centuries of second-class citizenship, they don’t want to part with this external symbol of freedom and independence. Continued in the next post.

Since my first part kept getting snubbed by the filter, I figured I would just summarize. I said that I admire Dustin for having the guts to bring this out and that he brought up some important issues such as the Catholic doctrine of caring for your fellow man. However, I think that he neglected to consider the fact that the drastic changes in clothing style in women in recent history came and became intertwined with real advancements in civil rights for women.

Dustin- I just saw more comments here and I did cringe when I re-read my mommy-lecture tone in the last comment I left.  If that offended you, just please chalk it up to my busybody personality with teacher-and-mothering enhancements, and not to any particular ill will on my part. 

Other than that I can’t for the life of me imagine why you have suddenly turned your massive and vicious rage on me again.  Honestly, it is more than a little tiring.

Dustin, I recommend you get yourself to the Latin Mass as soon as possible.  You will find like-minded men and women there.  My goodness, so much time and energy expended in this comment box.  Surely, we all have better things to do! :)

Dear @Catholic Male, I was not defending whatever clothing women find comfortable.  In my original comment I was defending Pat’s attempt to take an actual, real-world stand against men who objectify women, from what I saw as a claim that Pat’s stand was meaningless, that women deserve their ogling because they dress shamefully, and most importantly that the pain and anger of a man at living in this sinful world was the most important topic at hand, more important than any other, one that all women on the board who supported Pat’s stand must address.  Immediately. Or suffer the consequences.

I do not believe that I said much at all about what women wear, one way or the other.

@J.C.  The idea that the solution to Dustin’s complaints are “get thee to a Latin Mass” is kind of laughable.  I think Mass is an excellent help to any suffering person…but perhaps you are doing a great injustice to the Latin Mass.  Because, seriously, thinking that   viciously angry men will be flocking to the Latin Mass to find “like-minded” people makes me even less inclined to go to one myself, or, frankly, socialize with those who do.

Unfortunately it is true that my anger has not helped me to be clear to the people reading. I have been trying to address many more things than what the article was originally about.
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No, Pat is doing a good thing here. My only caveat to his article would be to utilize the prudence, consideration, and awareness that always characterize responsible and intelligent fraternal correction. Evidently I’m the first one who needs to take this advice. Still, a full frontal assault of the kind that Pat demonstrated in his article (“She’s someone’s daughter”) is only likely to work with a man who is already humble, docile to correction, and dedicated to purity. Any other kind of man is likely to become defensive and even angry. What’s the sense in correcting someone in a way that he’s not going to hear? By all means, I’m the last person to have demonstrated this wisdom, that’s clear.
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Other than that, Pat is pointing to a very real problem that we do need to address as a people. It was not my intention, but I have sidetracked the discussion. For those women whom this has frustrated, I apologize. However, while taking responsibility for my own actions, I do continue to insist that my frustration has a source. I would like to know for how many more years I must keep my mouth shut, or perhaps I should say, for how many more years I can only expect to hear, in response to my concerns, “Pray harder,” while women hear, in response to their concerns, “You’re right, that’s awful, let’s do something about it.”
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The point isn’t to make women shut up. The point is to get women and men alike to stop making *us* men shut up.

A Catholic ‘Male’ - Just out of curiosity, what species of male are you? An otter? A deer? A zebra? Since you’re typing I would have assumed you were a human male but the usual term for one is ‘man’.
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What is this term ‘women’s liberation movement’? Is this something new? I’ve never heard of it before. It’s really sad women were so oppressed sixty years ago. Someone should get the word out!
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You’re right. I really should stop getting angry. I’m just a stupid, oppressive man (male?), after all. What right do I have to complain? The only ones who have any right to get angry are women. Meanwhile, I should just go to the Adoration Chapel and pray to Jesus that I develop the profound spiritual awareness that women are always right and men are always wrong, and that a good man keeps his mouth shut and does what he is told.
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Thanks for your comment!

“A good man keeps his mouth shut and does what he is told” reminded me of the homily our priest gave at my sister’s wedding.  He had known them both for a long time and remarked about my brother-in-law being, like St. Joseph, a man who didn’t talk too much but always did the right thing. 
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My brother-in-law, a very good man, speaks up quite forcefully when it is right to do so.  He does it with firmness, directness, and gentle respect, for any man or woman he is talking to.  When absolutely necessary (he is a police officer, and a human being, so there are such times, )he can speak in a louder voice.  But it is rare.
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Anyway, Dustin, you twist the discussion to fit whatever pre-arranged scheme you have there in your head.  Don’t call it discussion, though, or labor under the illusion that you are open to *other people’s* contributions in the way you want them to be.  As soon as anyone steps out of the (angrily drawn) line you have in your mind, you have turned on them savagely.
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Btw, you asked what my husband thought.  He was very compassionate toward you and the things you were talking about, when we discussed it.  I tried very hard to convey, and he really got, the feeling of being dismissed and unheard that you reported.  I got it too—that’s what you don’t get.  You keep missing out on opportunities to be heard because you announce your desire to be heard by saying to women, “Women!  I am sick of being disrespected by you! You are disgusting harpies whose way of behaving makes me livid!  Listen to why and respond to me!”
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And then you go on to ignore every shred of kindness those same women try to offer you *despite* their understandable reaction to your manner.
Why do you think men listen more?  Maybe they listen more *to you* because you don’t make them shiver with dread at your not-even-concealed rage and hatred of womankind.

Do you ever get the feeling like sometimes these comment boxes become “vent your spleen” boxes?  (not directing that at anyone in particular) Again, respect is all that the original post can be boiled down to.
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I finally did a “google images” of “yoga pants” to see what the big deal is, and I have to say that “yes”, a good amount of what one sees there is certainly in bad taste. As Deb pointed out, “yoga pants” can mean a wide range of materials and the way they fit.  No, I personally wouldn’t let my daughter go to school in about 75% of what Google images shows for “yoga pants”.
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No. I’m not a man, so those girls in skin tight pants don’t have the same effect.  I just don’t understand the anger part—like hating Tequila if I give up Margaritas for Lent if it’s something I actually like.  Strange.
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As for girls who aren’t dressed respectfully at Mass—yes it makes me feel a little bad,however, I agree that what Deb said is correct,: “say a prayer for her”.  The best solution!  Why hate her?
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Corita has valiantly defended the rights of women not to be *hurt* and *looked down upon*, even if they should be *pitied*.  Yes, I empathize with the difficulties that men endure, but *looking away* now and then, while commendable and noble, is not as tragic as *rape* and *abuse*.  NO, it ISN’T.
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I asked my husband what he does now to deal with the issue.  He doesn’t take a second look if *his* purity is at risk.  If he is tempted to, he offers it up—a sweet sacrifice. It must please God who understands, (and made women beautiful) He has come to a point in his life where he loves serving God more than capitulating to perverse sensuality.  He most certainly doesn’t think that *long skirts* are the solution.
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Can we just *chill*, agree to disagree on what we must, and keep *hatred*, *anger* and sarcastic name calling out of the equation?  That is like wallowing in some ring of Hell.  Read Peter Kreeft’s piece on “Sex in heaven” instead.  And “Give it to God” like Teresa of Calcutta always recommended.

This is a final word, and I address it to any men who may be reading.
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Yoga pants themselves are not what drive me crazy, nor what prompted my long series of posts. They are, rather, emblematic of the problem. The problem is that the culture is or is at least becoming dominated by the voices of women. Note the key word ‘dominated’. The problem is not that women are speaking. Rather, the problem is that they are the only ones who are speaking. So to take the matter a step further, and locate the proper cause of the issue, the crux of the matter in my view is that men aren’t talking. Men have power, sure, but they do not have power ‘as a sex’, as a mobilized unit, as an identifiable ‘voice’ that does more than constantly apologize for itself. Women do have this voice. This is the difference. It is almost the soup du jour to hear or read about the way some issue or another is affecting women. On only exceedingly rare occasions does anyone ask how anything is affecting men. But as Warren Farrel said, ‘women [or men, for that matter] can’t hear what men don’t say.’ You can’t tell me the problem is that we don’t have anything to say. The very idea that we have nothing to say about this world is ludicrous. Where, then, is our voice?
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In ‘Saving Private Ryan’ we watch a military unit undertake great risks and sacrifices to rescue the one man who was left behind. They put everything on the line to bring that one man back home from behind enemy lines. By contrast, here in civilian life, we men will do absolutely nothing for each other if it involves even a small risk to ourselves. A man who would probably take a fatal gunshot for a fellow soldier can’t risk stepping into the mayhem here——under the cover of anonymity?? Isn’t it clear? If we can’t take heat here, on the Internet, where no one knows who we are, how on earth are we going to penetrate the social discourse, where by speaking we would permanently damage our reputations?
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Looking back on the discussion, it is not surprising that the women here wrote me off, with as much kindness as they could muster against the tide of their own fury, as a ranting, deranged, misogynistic sex addict marked by an excessive preoccupation with yoga pants. It is not surprising they had no idea where I was coming from. It is not surprising all they had to say in response to the storm of points I made was, “Pray.” Who could blame them? What a strange person I am to them. Naturally they are going to conclude the problem is me.
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I’ve been tempted more than once to think they were right. I’ve maintained some degree of confidence by recalling conversations I’ve had with other men, or in some way overheard other men saying, that confirmed for me that I’m not totally crazy, whatever personal issues I bring to the discussion.
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So my last word is this: leave no man behind. Not every man agrees with me of course. But if there is even one man reading for whom my earlier words struck any chords at all, it’s time to speak up. Leave no man behind. It’s not enough to sit behind your computer and think, “Nice to hear this said,” if in fact you are actually thinking this. It’s time to risk. It’s time to penetrate the social consciousness. Our problem is not that we risk too much, but that we risk too little. Don’t side with caution. Side with danger. And if that sounds silly, if you don’t think it’s dangerous to say something online under the cover of anonymity, why aren’t you doing it? Forget the excuses. You’d die for a brother in combat. You won’t risk hearing a nasty word said about you in an online discussion? What’s the big deal?
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If this isn’t the right time or place, when is the right time, and where is the right place? Name one time and place when you think you’ll get a fair hearing. Go ahead, do it. Tell me when you’ll get a better chance. You won’t get one. This is the closest we come, these articles that tell us what we’re doing wrong. There is never a time when men are ‘on topic’. So break in, interrupt, annoy, speak your mind. It’s fun.
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I got a few words of support from the guys here but not one of them risked anything himself. Come on, there really is nothing scary about this. Say whatever you want, whether it’s immediately relevant or not, because as I just said, *you* are *never* relevant to *any* discussion.
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That’s for any guy here who picked even one kernel of truth from what I’ve said. Peace.

Here’s a *shout out* to the men (I don’t care if it is buried in an ancient post):  *Men* I love you.  When you write articles like *this one*, it makes me love you even more.  I love it when I see you struggling with your little one at mass.  I love it when I catch you glimpsing your wife with loving affection in your eyes.  I love how you can be discussing business with a CEO, two hours before, and how you dive into bed with two little ones, reading silly stories that make them hang on your every word and giggle.  I love it when you have a great sense of humor and make me laugh until I cry (and sometimes almost other things cause I’ve given birth to nine.)  I love it when you are coaching your team of eight-year-olds like it’s as important as the Super bowl or the World Cup and all those shiny little eyes are gazing up at you.  I love seeing you off with a car full of other men, knowing you are going hiking, fishing, or will be praying, shoulder to shoulder at a quiet evening of recollection.  I love it when you come home and tell me the stories you swapped, the grave news that need to be prayed about and show how much you care about the people around you and in the world.  I love it when you make Salmon beurre blanc for the whole family and your green chile and cilantro salsa, how you labor over it for hours, blissfully happy.  I love it when you ask me quietly, “shall we pray our rosary together?” I love to see you keep holding your wife’s hand after the “Our Father” is over at mass.  I love it when you speak passionately about why abortion is wrong.  I love it when you have tears in your eyes at the baptism of your new baby.  I love how you dress—your need for freshly shined shoes, and a perfectly ironed shirt is a happy thorn in my side. You are a god in your running shorts.(OMG) I love how you like candlelight and the cedar incense from Whole Foods.  I happily forgive you for your trips to the theater with the boys to watch disgustingly violent movies—when you say “because the bad guy always loses”, you are utterly and completely endearing. You are strong, and could be a vicious predator, but you are a *protector* and a gladiator. Men, I love it when you are manly: at the head of the table, in a cassock, gluing cotton balls on cut out sheep, kneeling in adoration, bench pressing, reading with your brow knit, and sinking into a chair because you had to put in a 12 hour day.  Men, you get my blood moving.  When you are that beautiful, if you say: “Jump!” Instead of asking you “how high?” I’ll ask you if I can launch myself higher from your broad shoulders.  Men, you make my heart skip a beat.  You are a gift to all mankind. God Bless you, bless you, bless you—all of you that care to be men.  You are beautiful.

Dustin
  I think that in the 15 years that I am guessing separates you from my husband, I believe that the authentic male voice has been drowned out completely in academia (you mentioned going to class, so I assume you are in college).  More women graduate from college, more women graduate at the top of high school classes, and the way we do “school” in the US is geared to females. True masculinity is not appreciated in the female dominated world of academia.
  With this said, immediately turning to anger when a woman is dressed in any manner that incites lust isn’t productive spiritually.  Especially considering that many woman are have poorly formed consciences.  You yourself admitted to suffering under porn.  If this is the case, then inordinate lust when seeing an average dressed woman is a result of the pornography.  Anger toward women and blaming them is a result of sin. I hear you, though, many ladies out there are dressing like hussies.
  My suggestion: keep on your journey.  Be the man you want to be.  If marriage is your vocation, marry a good, faithful woman.  Be chaste before and during marriage. Don’t use contraception.  Stand up for your wife.  Hold a decent job.  Love your kids and spend time with your children.  Be the man in your house: throw your children up in the air and ignore your wife’s protestations, discipline your kids with strength and love, find your wife to be the most beautiful woman in the world and have eyes for only her.  Provide for and protect your family.  These are charisms given to only men from our Creator.  No matter how much secular women scream and seemingly drawn out men, they cannot fight this kind of man because God is behind him.  This is my husband.  I was a better student in college than him, I have graduate degrees and he doesn’t, and I could have easily drawn him out with screaming.  But, the Lord let my husband’s charisms of manliness shine through. Prayer is what made this happen, not anger.
God bless your efforts.

Thank you for writing about the need for women to return to “pretty” and innocence, and men needing to be gentlemen!  I always wear skirts that cover my knee and just generally present myself in a way that is very different from society; but sometimes one feels like they don’t quite measure up with all of the Barbie doll girls around.  While I am not a Catholic, but a New Testament Christian trying to follow my Bible, I greatly appreciate these two posts which I just read.

I just spent the last hour actually reading most of the comment thread. I’ll stand by my first comment from 1-19 (ah, so long ago); but I was just riveted by the Dustin-Corita-Anna Lisa-Deb thread.  Impressions: with the exception of the vitriol, I found myself oddly in sympathy with everyone. Indeed, anger tends to make us argue past one another - so often missing a lot of the “listening” and generosity thats actually there. Yet there was something of an arc to the conversation: I was impressed by how much everyone hung in (despite the feelings of shut-down-ness). And so many finishes (uh, for the most part…) with generosity of spirit! Anna Lisa, what an “Ode to Men”! Deb, what a beautiful ode to your husband - prayer and charisms: that’s what we need. The original post was about ogling: it’s poisonously aggressive; it’s bad for men and women alike [but in different ways-and the violence it does to women, and points to of greater degrees of violence towards women cannot be compared to the way it is bad for men]; it should be called out - especially by men - and this post was a great example.

In special sympathy to Dustin: I can’t imagine what it must be like on a secular college campus these days. I was on university campuses in the 80s and 90s.  When I was on a campus this past year, I found the atmosphere shocking - and I am not the easily shocked, Puritanical sort. I feel like that experience gave me an insight into what I think you were trying to say (until you became a bit unhinged, and started with the various and sundry declarations about “women”). The fact is that there was something about the way the young women were dressed that was actually aggressive and hostile. And I understand how a young man could feel palpably hurt by that kind of atmosphere. It’s really beyond any question of immodesty - it speaks of such a larger rejection of God, and a total disruption of social solidarity [btw- here’s the google images link for yoga you-know-whats: http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1020&bih=546&q=yoga+pants&gbv=2&oq=yoga+pants&aq=f&aqi;=&aql;=&gs_sm=12&gs_upl=0l0l0l1768l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0]

The audacity of advice (I’m the father of 5 sons - and 1 daughter - substantially younger than you; and yet…): Speak out- there’s a lot of important material here, and you’ve got a lot to say; but pray a lot more first. It will sharpen your mind, and quiet some of the static that’s in your way. Sit with the Lord in adoration. Meditate on St. Joseph. Pray for those charisms, not just of human-ness, but for those of a man. Study Theology of the Body. Read Parsifal. Think about what it takes to transition from needing to serving. Godspeed to you.

Rob ‘Parsifal’ MacMillan, I hope your wife divorces you, rips your children away from you, convinces your children that their father is a deadbeat, slanders you as a wife abuser to all your friends, files a restraining order on you, and burdens you for the rest of your life with alimony and child support payments for children you’ll never see again. I hope that woman crucifies you. Here you are, preaching to strangers about the ‘charisms of a man’. Brave words for a man who can’t even give himself his own wife’s goodness toward him. You know it’s only God who stands between you and your total devastation. If I could have it my way I would watch God put you on trial for the rest of your life for your words to me here. I would see life teach you a few strong lessons about need, and I would be the one to preach to you about service. I’d thoroughly enjoy watching you deal with vapid, oblivious, self-adoring snots like Corita and Anna Lisa, from the position of a man who has been ruined in a world that’s too busy kissing women’s asses to notice him. Fortunately for you, it’s not up to me. You must have friends in high places. The only kind word I’ll give you is this: I wouldn’t walk around tempting the Almighty to prove just who it is who gives you everything. It’s !@#$% stupid.

I think it’s fine for men to admire the beauty of a woman, but not out loud in such a crass manner.  I have myself been known to notice an attractive person and say wow, he or she is very attractive and leave it at that.  The trouble isn’t that men notice, married or single, the trouble is how they notice and the things they say.