Wonderful post, Matthew!  Do you recall where you found that quote from St. Tikhon?  I have tried to teach on this issue in a variety of small group settings and get substantial pushback when I use language like your “madly in love” question (especially among fellow men).  Does it affect your argument if one makes the following substitution: “Now ask yourself this: would you give your life for this person?”

Beautiful quote from St. Tikhon. But is this St. Tikhon of Zadonsk or St. Tikhon, Patriarch of Moscow, who ministered for a while as Russian Orthodox Archbishop in the United States?

Matthew, On this I believe we pretty much agree. It’s true we should be working every day to stretch our love, agreed, but “Madly in love?”  Christ loves each one of us.  He died for us and calls us to love one another, even our enemies. The love He is asking of us is to love the good of the other soul and bring that soul to closer union to Him and work for it by our loving response to whatever is thrown at us, to do good to those who hate us and bless those who curse us - not to love the sin in the person but the soul trapped in the sin.  It is only acheivable through His grace. Agreed? And it is easier to do when we look at each other as souls on a journey instead of as tax collectors, scribes, prostitutes or sexy individuals (couldn’t resist :>) ).  Labels are a stumbling block. Also not some emotion of passion which can change depending on circumstances but a desire in the heart for the good of the soul even while the mouth may be cursing the miseries the other is full of and puts you through. Do you agree?  Also, where do you get Jesus love is “wild”? Very overflowing yes, extravagant, yes, wild though? What do you mean by that? The road is narrow. And He had people he disliked and called names like “brood of vipers”. He even said it would have been better if Judas had never been born.  So He isn’t expecting us to be blind to sin.

I love this post.  It gets to the heart of living our faith.  The “rules” of our faith are essential, but tend to push non-believers away.  Unconditional love draws people to Christ.  If they see that in believers, they pause and want to know more.  It is what we all deeply desire.  Thanks Matthew!

Given the profound advances in accepting love we see here (Catholics asking which schismatic “saint” is quoted in a Catholic treatise on “orthodoxy”- what a perfect and crystalline summary of the disorientation and catastrophic departure from orthodoxy of the Catholic author and commentators!), I would expect it would be quite easy to assault the rest of the bastions approximately in this way:

“You are a bigot for denying homosexual marriage, it is not loving…..”

“Your labels and judgements are foreign to Christ, Who would never deny a woman’s right to choose…”

” The horrible narrowness of the old Church’s teaching ‘nulla salus extra ecclesiam’ no longer applies, the Church says so!”

Ah, springtime continues.

Rick DeLano, are you saying that you cannot tell the difference between homosexual marriage on the one hand and an appropriate quotation from an Orthodox saint on the other?

Believe it or not, Orthodox saints are recognized by the Catholic Church.

dixibehr:

“Believe it or not, Orthodox saints are recognized by the Catholic Church.”

Believe it or not, springtime has not yet progressed to this absurd stage, yet.

What would be fascinating, would be the examination of exactly how you managed to be persuaded of this absurdity in the first place.

I am all ears.

Oh, and Dixie, I am afraid it is not logical to assert, on the one hand, that the Church was wrong about the Orthodox schismatics, and on the other, that She is right about the “bigotry” involved in declaring abortion and homosexual marriage to be abominations before God.

If the Church is wrong on any one of Her dogmas, then She can certainly be wrong on another.

This is the whole meaning of the disastrous springtime in which you continue to exult.

I am sure it will sink in eventually.

\\What would be fascinating, would be the examination of exactly how you managed to be persuaded of this absurdity in the first place.\\

Bl. John Paul’s referring to St. Seraphim of Sarov and St. John Maximovitch of San Francisco by their honorifics for one thing.

The appearance of Orthodox Saints dating from the time of the Roman falling away from Orthodoxy in the Roman Martyrology, for another.

Will these do for starters?

And how dare you presume that I am Catholic?

BTW, you are illustrating PRECISELY what St. Tikhon meant about “orthodoxy of the head” as opposed to Orthodoxy of the heart.

You will find this teaching in the Roman Catholic Church, as well.

“Bl. John Paul’s referring to St. Seraphim of Sarov and St. John Maximovitch of San Francisco by their honorifics for one thing.”

>> Thanks, that means not a thing, since the Pope also refers to rabbis as rabbis, and imams as imams, and neither of these diplomatic niceties involves any dogmatic pronouncement of His office.

“The appearance of Orthodox Saints dating from the time of the Roman falling away from Orthodoxy in the Roman Martyrology, for another.”

>> But these saints were saints. Catholic saints.
:-)

“Will these do for starters?”

>> Nope.

“And how dare you presume that I am Catholic?”

>> I do not presume you are Catholic. In fact I suspected you weren’t. You have now confirmed this. No wonder you were so delighted with the author’s piece.

“BTW, you are illustrating PRECISELY what St. Tikhon meant about “orthodoxy of the head” as opposed to Orthodoxy of the heart.
You will find this teaching in the Roman Catholic Church, as well.”

>> By the way, you are illustrating PRECISELY why the disastrous path of ecumenism has coincided with the greatest free-fall collapse in Catholic missionary activity since the foundation of the Church.

Now.

The Catholic Church- One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic, outside of which no one at all is saved- has essentially ceased Her missionary activity.

The Orthodox are delighted in this.

The Catholics who are similarly delighted in this are…........

Exulting in the New Springtime.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/matthew-warner/orthodoxy-of-the-heart#ixzz21YUDZgMu

Brian, St. Sergius of Radonezh, Russia, is 14th century—post-schism—and is included in the Roman Martyrology. There are others.

Deal with it.

Oh, we deal with the New Springtime every day, dixibehr.

St. Sergius of Radonezh died a Catholic, and how remarkable it is to know this.

If the Church had not told us this we should have had no way of knowing such an extraordinary thing.

We are assured likewise that Blessed Pope John Paul II is in heaven, another thing we should have had great difficulty in comprehending, given the fruits of the New Springtime, apart from the assurance of the Church.

St. Sergius of Radonezh died Orthodox, and was canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church shortly thereafter. (There’s no Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, or Tooth Fairy, either.)

There are many other post-schism Russian Orthodox saints, among them the New Martyrs of the Communist Yoke, who are commemorated by the Russian Catholic Church, under a directive issued by Pope Pius XII: “Nec plus, nec minus, nec altera.” Add nothing, omit nothing, change nothing.

Furthermore, St. Gregory Palamas, another post Roman schism saint, is commemorated on the Second Sunday in Lent by Catholics of the Byzantine tradition in editions of the Triodion (Pre-Lent and Lenten Offices) published by Rome.

Better the Springtime of Vatican II than the winter of Vatican 1.

Time out!  Stop the petty bickering – it’s unbecoming to both of you! Neither one of you are acting in a Christian like manner.  (Satan takes great delight in seeing fellow Christians act rudely to one another. Moreover, this type of behavior pains Our Lord’s heart.)   

Have you forgotten that during the last decade of his pontificate, Pope John Paul II repeatedly challenged the Church to “breathe with both lungs” of Western and Eastern Christianity? Overcoming the rift between the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy is at the top of the Pope Benedict’s ecumenical agenda. Mistakes were made on both sides, so we should pray for the Holy Spirit’s aid in healing old wounds and restoring full communion between the Eastern Orthodox churches and the Catholic Church.

We should be celebrating the fact that we have such close ties with each other! We have more in common than you think.  The Orthodox churches have valid holy orders and the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The U.S. Bishops Conference’s Guidelines for the Reception of Communion states:
Members of the Orthodox churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of Communion by Christians of these churches. (canon 844 § 3)

p.s. Both of you apparently did not comprehend Matthew’s wonderful post. You totally missed his point! As a matter of fact, you are acting in manner totally opposite to what the author suggested in his blog.

I challenge you to examine your way of thinking so that every decision you make in your dealings with everyone you come in contact with is in some way a reflection of the mind of Christ.

Since when do we as Catholics deny the truth spoken by non-Catholics?  When do we deny truth?  Truth itself does not contradict the faith of the Church.  If non-Catholics say something profound that does not damage or contradict the faith, what’s the harm in using the statement and getting some knowledge from it?  With this line of reasoning which Rick seems to suggest, we should distance ourselves from Aristotle (who greatly informed the work of St. Thomas Aquinas), nor should we read many of the great ancient works of literature and attempt to glean any sort of goodness or appropriate lessons. The whole point of the quote and the author’s blog is simply this: ONLY knowing and professing the true faith does not make you a true believer - *living* out the truths of the faith does.  I don’t see what there is to argue with about this, and I find some of the back and forth to be a bit snippy and outside the realm of charitable dispute…  You can know everything there is to know about the faith and still land yourself right in Hell; in fact one could argue that in a certain sense, the more knowledge you have about the faith, the more that is expected from you in terms of compliance with that faith, thus it may, in a sense, be easier to wind up in Hell as a ‘smart’ Catholic than as an ignorant Pagan.  Many of us American Catholics, thanks in large part to Catholic media, are getting much smarter about our faith… that’s not the hard part though; the hard part is actually making changes in your life to reflect that knowledge and keeping your pride in check while doing so.  Successfully doing that is nothing short of a miracle, and right now, after reading this article and knowing my track record for sin and duplicity, I’m begging God to perform that miracle in my life.

Lux et Veritas, I got the original post’s point. I was merely asking (originally) which St. Tikhon said this.

Brian was the one denying, against the teaching of the Church, that either was a saint, or deserved the title. I was trying to provide examples from Roman and Eastern Catholic sources where he was mistaken.

Christ was very clear—which the article’s conclusion is not so much: He told everyone we need to LOVE each other… which He meant.  He said nothing, however, about the fact that we needed to LIKE each other, a VERY different thing.  Too many confuse the real meaning of the former with the reality of the latter. He indeed meant to love those we do not like.

@ dixie”\:

“the New Martyrs of the Communist Yoke, who are commemorated by the Russian Catholic Church, under a directive issued by Pope Pius XII: “Nec plus, nec minus, nec altera.” Add nothing, omit nothing, change nothing.”

>> It was Pius IX, not Pius XII, and ironically the Pope was explicitly rejecting the suggestion of the addition of saints to the calendar.

As to these post-schism Saints, it is clear they were Castholics, and hence never adhered to the schism in the first place.

@ Lux:

Petty bickering? Oh, no. Neither petty, nor bickering. It is true that the religion of irenicism is prepared to ignore the Truth that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, but certainly I am not prepared to ignore it.

@ Mike B:

There is no logical connection whatsoever between the question of the Orthodox schism and the philosophy of Aristotle. I pray it were true what you say about Catholics getting smarter about their Faith. Empirical evidence would certainly include a restoration of our missionary activities, in order to convert heretics and schismatics to the One True Church, apart from which no one can be saved.

A parable:

A psychiatrist got a new and interesting patient. The patient was convinced that he was dead. So the psychiatrist thought that the best way to free the patient from his delusion was to convince him that dead men do not bleed.

He brought reports from medical journals and books, and even an interview with a mortician. Eventually the patient said, “OK. You have me convinced. Dead men do not bleed.”

The psychiatrist then poked the patient’s finger with a lancet. The patient silently watched the blood coming out, and finally said, “OMG! Dead men really DO bleed after all.”

@Rick: Sorry you didn’t get my reasoning on this, let me try again…

Your gripe is, in part, that it was wrong that the author chose to quote a schismatic on the topic of Orthodoxy.  Your issue with this (as I understand it) is that because this person was not a Catholic, they had no business speaking on the topic and that we should discard their thoughts on the matter.  My point is that we, as faithful Catholics, shouldn’t do that because non-Catholics can in fact get it right sometimes, in as much as they do not contradict the truth proclaimed through Christ’s one, true Church.  Your position, that we ought not reference non-Catholics in such matters simply based on their religious beliefs is dangerous and leads down a slippery slope. 

It seems illogical to me that a Catholic with this mindset would be quick to dismiss an Orthodox Christian’s thoughts but be okay accepting the philosophy of a pagan (Aristotle).  How do you draw the line here?

Ah, Mike B, thank you very much, I see your point now.

It is an excellent mine- all truths of Faith belong to the Catholic Church, of course, and all truth found in schismatic, heretical, perfidious, pagan, and even atheist world views is perfectly consistent with Catholic truth, since that is what it will be found to have been in the first place.

This is right.

What bothered me initially was your (implicit) suggestion that some aspect of the truth concerning Faith could be found apart from the Church; that some schismatic, heretical, perfidious, pagan, or even atheistic world view might provide some part of the truth that had previously been unknown to the One, Holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.

If it was not your intention to suggest that some deficiency in the truths of Faith in the Catholic Church might be remedied buy having recourse to schismatic, heretical, perfidious, pagan, or even atheist sources, then we agree completely.

Well I don’t know of any orthodox people who aren’t in love with Christ and don’t live by the 10 commandments themselves. My friends readily admit they’re sinners, and often are first in line at confession when they do! They set an example; that’s what evangelization is. When others get offended, it’s because their lifestyle reproaches their conscience.

Wisdom 2:12-20: Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD.To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways.He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him.For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him.

Just like this article, they get accused of being hypocrites and rule mongers by atheists, lukewarm Catholics and the social justice crowd. Orthodox Catholics need our support right now, not our judgement.

Jesus loves us all, those who are in the Catholic Church and those who are outside of the Catholic Church. To suggest that only those who are Catholic will be saved is to not believe what Jesus taught and not live as Jesus lived. You can throw all of your arguments against this but in the end the unconditional love of Christ will prevail over the intellectual firepower of those who supposedly know everything but fail to walk in His footsteps. Some who write here could make better use of their time caring for the sick or feeding the hungry instead of using their self-righteous “knowledge” to bully their brothers and sisters in Christ. And if they’re so convinced of what they’re saying they would be a good example to us all if they walked away from their computers and actually did the missionary work they so loudly encourage the Church to do. God Bless You.

@ The Hat Lady: “Orthodox Catholics need our support right now, not our judgement.”

>> Orthodox Catholics believe what the Catholic Church has infallibly defined.

Here is what the Orthodox Catholic believes:

1. “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

2. “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

3. “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

The above is De Fide definita; that is, if one does not believe it, then they do not believe the Church- they deny the Catholic Faith.

@Tony: See above.

Thank you, Holy Spirit, for putting this article within my line of sight today.  Just what I needed.

Hey Rick….I really don’t have time to research and quote like you do, time is better spent doing God’s work, but nonetheless I hope to see you in heaven, God willing. God Bless You…Tony

Amen, Tony, may it be a merry meeting!

To Tony: Regardless of your opinion of Rick’s responses, do you really doubt that researching the Truths of the teaching of the Church is God’s work? Do you really think corporal works are superior to spiritual works?  Do you really think His unconditional love encompasses loving sin which He has said He hates? He loves us whether or not we are presently loving Him (unconditional), but He hates sin. And He does allow people to go to Hell. Remember He was asked, “Will many be saved?” and He said, “The path that leads to destruction is wide and many there are who follow it.  Take the narrow path.”  Our first job is to know Him. Do you forget, “Martha, Martha you are anxious and worried about many things.  There is need of ONLY ONE and Mary has chosen the better part.” And she was sitting at His feet listening while Martha was killing herself trying to wait on everyone alone, preoccupied with the work, not the Lord.

“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

Sadly I see no mention of “you cited a passage in Scripture” or “you quoted a Papal Bull” or “you blogged about me” or “you posted something on NCRegister”.

Yes, Mary chose to sit at the feet of our Lord and given the choice we would all hope to do the same but this isn’t about sitting at His feet, it’s about how we best use our time. My point was simply that the best use of time is to do His work of helping the poor and feeding the hungry instead of researching Bible verses to convince someone who doesn’t absolutely agree with you. And mind you, most people on here are true believers, we might not agree on every single point or prefer to emphasize one thing over another but we’re all here because we love Jesus and want to spread the Good News.

I don’t deny that researching and writing is also important, I’m doing it too right, it’s just that the work of helping the poor and sick doesn’t get done by talking about it.

God Bless You….Tony

It’s a Body, with many members, Tony. Why should a great master of charity like yourself, disdain a poor insignificant defender of doctrine such as myself?

It is important that great ones such as yourself develop to the best of their ability a patience with those of us who serve as the soles of the feet of the Body of Christ.

I still pray for a merry meeting!

Touche Rick!

I’ve been cut to the bone! I actually like you more now than I did before.

To be honest, I have enjoyed reading your posts and only wish I could do what you do but I’m not that smart, really I’m not, but you already know that. 

We are all one Body! And we all serve the Lord as best we can, thanks for your patience with me.

Take care and God Bless You!

Your friend in Christ….Tony

Tony, I respectfully disagree.  Before you can do the Lord’s work you need to know what it is.  Our Church is in the mess it’s in because people are not being taught the true faith.  The Lord has alot of patience with sinners, but not with people being lead astray by false teachers.  Surely, you don’t think Mary only sat at Jesus’ feet.  She found time for works of mercy as well.  But there are people trying to silence the truth because it does not permit the lifestyles they would like or for whatever reason and some of these people are within the Church, its media and its blog posters, calling names such as “radtrad”,  (one of the mildest, they called the Apostles worse), using the politics of destruction to choose who will and will not be allowed to teach CCD etc. We are making good use of our time speaking up.

Yes Pam, people can make good use of their time reading, writing and speaking up; we all should witness to our faith. But in doing so we need to be respectful and not bully others over what they think and say. Using the gifts that God has given us to teach others is wonderful. Using those same gifts to hurt others or make them feel that if they post something they might be attacked with sarcasm or Scripture is not. I appreciate your post but I think the Lord has a lot more patience and love than you give Him credit for. Take care and God Bless You….Tony

Tony, Stating the truth of the faith is not bullying.  Labelling it bullying is working against the truth.  It is a stubbornness on your part to resist and to continue in ignorance or to try to silence correction by putting a negative spin on clear teaching as Rick has presented here and a lack of openness to the truth.  If someone feels “attacked by scripture” then they need to adjust their attitude. God has spoken.  If someone sees something that does not coincide with His word, they should bring it up.  Hiding behind a mask of “correctness” doesn’t make the truth less the truth.  We are not a religion of victims.  And who are you accusing of sarcasm?  I see that mostly from those who follow emotions and worldly thinking, not the people who quote the scripture.  As to God’s love, He has allowed us to still exist. Considering how we have treated Him, I have a great idea of His love and patience.  It isn’t doubting His love or patience. It’s recognizing the presumption in your kind of statement.  The question has never been “Does God love me?”  The question is, “Do I love Him in return?”  If we do we keep His commandments, we get to know Him and the Church He founded.  We don’t rewrite the commandments and we don’t silence truth to get our way. God bless you too.

Whose Truth? Your Truth? Pre-Vatican II Truth? The Truth of those who say that ONLY Catholics will be saved? The Truth of those who say that only those who believe “just like they do” will be saved? The Truth of those who presume that they know what Jesus does and does not like?  The Truth of those who think they know it all?

Go back and read Matthew’s original post, “We forget that being a true Christian is not about having the right opinions about things, it’s about having the right heart about things.”

God Bless You!

The truth handed down for two thousand years by the Catholic Church.  It hasn’t changed.  Didn’t say I believe only Catholics go to heaven.  You are the one presuming what He does and does not like by tossing out what is unappealing from what is handed down. The right heart instinctively has the right opinions and is open to the narrow road and is in conformity to His word in the Gospel.  If Pre-Vatican II truth isn’t the same as Post-Vatican II then I choose St. Francis, St. Anthony, St. Augustine etc.  God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Tony:
If you do not believe that only Catholics will be saved, then you do not believe the Catholic Faith:

1. “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
2. “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
3. “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
The above is De Fide definita; that is, if one does not believe it, then they do not believe the Church- they deny the Catholic Faith.

My friend, if you have the slightest quiver of disagreement with these infallible, heaven-protected dogmas of our Holy Faith, then I need to be praying for you.

A great many people no longer believe the Faith, Tony, and imagine it has changed into something it was not before.

These people generally have not stopped to consider that such a thing is impossible.

Do you believe this thrice-defined, irreformable dogma of our Holy Faith, Tony?

Or do you deny it, and say that one can be saved apart from the Catholic Church?

I am certain that there are Catholics more completely formed in the theological foundations of our Holy Faith than Tony, who might be moved by charity, because Tony is a Christian far higher in the Body than I, a man dedicated to Charity whilst I defend Faith…............

I am certain there are Catholics prepared to address upon theological grounds (the author of this piece?), the question which a man of Charity, like Tony, might bnot be completely prepared to engage.

Please, come to Tony’s assistance.

Tony is far higher in the Body of Christ than I (I speak the Truth, I do not lie).

Let another who serves as the sole of the feet of the Body of Christ, a defender of doctrine, come forth to meet me now.

this is about as toxic of a combox as I’ve seen

Obviously Bill ain’t the guy :-)

I heard recently that orthodoxy, while it means attaining to right doctrine, first means “right praise”. Thus the orthodox person first has a heart oriented to the right praise of God, then an intellectual assent to His truth.