May the commission be guided by the Holy Spirit of God so that its finds will inspire faith and hope for the thousands of prilgrims that waits on them.

The sooner this fraud is brought to an end, the better. There are too many unscrupulous characters benefiting from it. The local bishops have always maintained there is nothing supernatural about these alleged apparitions.

I have been there twice. I have personally witnessed total changes of heart that a person never would have thought possible.  People leave there with true love and dedication for Jesus and the Blessed Mother.  Not everyone, but enough so that you know that Heaven must touch the earth in this place. I am very glad that the Vatican is conducting a full scale investigation.  I am anxiously awaiting their findings.  In my opinion, a place that brings that many people solidly to God can’t be anything but good.

There have been some very questionable “messages” that have come out of this alleged apparition…one being disobedience to the local Bishops. And if this is a valid apparition, it sure is a strange one compared to all the other approved ones, so much vain repetition of the same things over and over. I, for one, do not believe in this. Maybe the Devil is having some gameplay here, I don’t know. It seems like some of the followers have more loyalty to the visionaries than they do the Church. Just imagine the division that will be created if the Church comes out against it. That would be a sure sign of the Evil One.

I do not believe that anything miraculous is occurring in Medjugorje. That being said, God can bring people to conversion anywhere.

I was always under the impression that this sort of activity cannot be evaluated until it ceases. Similar to not beginning the canonization process for an individual until after their death. Otherwise, a great deal of harm could result if found later to be false.

I consider myself fairly familiar with Medjugorje having made seven pilgrimages there and I am also a close friend of one the alledged visionaries, Marija, for over twenty years. In fact, I was a guest at her wedding. I have found that people who have never experienced Medjugorje themselves tend to see the glass half empty. The visionaries are human beings from very humble backgrounds. They are not articulate theologians, so they may have misrepresented or did not explain correctly an alleged message from Our Lady. Did not Peter? Also, long before the events of Medjugorje, there has been much political strife between the Diocesan priests and Franciscans which can muddy the waters when considering the authenticity of the alledged apparitions. Why do you think the Vatican removed the local ordinary from the process? Perhaps there was a lack of objectivity and bias. For the vast majority who have, in God’s providence, experienced Medjugorje themselves recognize the centrality of the Mass, Eucharistic Adoration, Confession and Penance. Not to mention a deep peace and presence of Our Lady. I encourage all opposed not to condemn Medjugorje or mock those who have come to God through it since the Vatican has not condemned it and permits private pilgrimages. At times, I have sensed an element of pride and rigidity in their arguments. (I think of the nun who opposed St. Bernadette.) At the same time, I hope all will ultimately submit to the decision of the Church which will come in due time. For now, relax, we’re on the same team!

We need to prepare for the possibility that the Vatican will put this off indefinitely. One possible “response” to the phenomenon is to let it die out/implode on its own. 1981 was only 31 years ago; let’s see if this phenomenon survives one generation.

To Chris on Wednesday, Dec 5, 2012 3:09 PM

“Why do you think the Vatican removed the local ordinary from the process? Perhaps there was a lack of objectivity and bias”

- unfortunately this is a typical falsehood/half-truth found in the pro-Medjugorje press. It was actually the other way around and the local Bishop asked the Vatican to investigate.

Everyone should go and read the documents on the official Diocese of Mostar website and the homilies given by the Bishop there about the alledged apparitions and he also wrote an especially good article about “The Great Sign” that was promised.

Well, I’m impatient, but respect the careful process of the Vatican.  They have three choices.  I’ll bet money they’ll declare it “Non constat de supernaturalitate” which is the neutral “not determined to be supernatural”.  Many folks will confuse this with “Constat de non supernaturalitate”, which means “determined to be NOT supernatural”.  And yeah, it’s highly unlikely they’ll declare it worthy of belief while it’s ongoing with the “Constat de supernaturalitate” ruling.  But I strongly believe it’s legitimate.  The scientific evidence is too compelling to dismiss.  Of course the miracles and “fruits” are hard to ignore too.  I went there as a skeptic and came back fully convinced.

I can’t understand why anyone is going to Medjugore, because I thought if it is not approved by the Church - as clearly it is not right now as it stands, then it is a grave a sin to follow or promote an unapproved apparition.

Medjugore is a place of prayer and gives peace and comfort to many

If the Church finds that Medjugore is true, I will be disappointed. It won’t affect my faith whether approved or not.

Thankfully, as a Catholic, I don’t have to follow or believe in any apparition and as far as I am concerned Medjurgore is a hoax. A very bad one.

I came back to the Catholic Church as a result of reading a book on Medjugore in 1994. I agree that there have been a number of conversions and headings attributed to this place. That being said this alleged apparition is an enigma. The has been the fruit that people have referenced but there has also been things hard to reconcile - the content of some of the messages and the length of the apparitions. I am glad the Church is taking its time on making a declaration. I am confident the CDF and the Holy Father will make the right decision, guided by the Holy Spirit. I support whatever ruling they make, and I am most grateful to our Blessed Mother for bringing me back to our faith - regardless of the circumstances.

I came back to the Catholic Church as a result of reading a book on Medjugore in 1994. I agree that there have been a number of conversions and headings attributed to this place. That being said this alleged apparition is an enigma. There has been the fruit that people have referenced but there has also been things hard to reconcile - the content of some of the messages and the length of the apparitions. I am glad the Church is taking its time on making a declaration. I am confident the CDF and the Holy Father will make the right decision, guided by the Holy Spirit. I support whatever ruling they make, and I am most grateful to our Blessed Mother for bringing me back to our faith - regardless of the circumstances.

I think it’s time for the Church to defer to the views of Mark Shea in this regard.  Is there any other way?

If we are true to Christ, whether it is real or illusionary, we must behave well.

Whether true or false apparitions, I thank God for the salvation of souls!

The town I was born&raised; in is about 18 miles away from M. So I’ve been there many times, and almost every time I visit my family (I don’t live in my hometown for decades) I go there.
I still don’t know what to think about apparitions. I know many people whose conversion was a result of pilgrimage to M. On the other hand, some things with seers are ... well, strange.
But of one thing I am perfectly sure - the peace in M. is something that is completely out of this world.

The sooner the Vatican condemns Medjugorje the better. Too many people are being deceived by this false apparition and are living their lives based on the “messages” rather than Sacred Scriptures and the teachings of the Church. I’ve been to Medjugorje so I can post with confidence that things are happening there but they are not from God. I personally believe this started out as a hoax and has since manifested into a Satanic deception. From day one, the “seers” have been disobedient to the local bishops and that is something Our Lady would never tolerate. Fatima, Lourdes and La Salette all met with initial suspicion but the seers were obedient to the Church even under harsh interrogations. Not here: the seers and their supporters have not only been disobedient but have threatened the local bishop and even had the audacity to say that Our Lady referred to him as a “bad bishop”. Several of the priests that promote Medjugorje have been involved in sex scandals: one of which even got a nun pregnant. Father Jozo has been stripped of his priestly duties because of his scandalous lifestyle. Medjugorje is a very charismatic place (charismatic is a protestant heresy, it’s not Catholic) so its easy to see where gullible people would fall for the heavy persuasion that bombards you the minute you go on an organized Medjugorje pilgrimage. The “seers” of Medjugore live lives of luxury compared to the impoverished townspeople. Compare that to the humility shown by Lucia of Fatima and Bernadette of Lourdes! None of the Medjugorje “seers” have persued a vocation (again, compare that to Lucia and Bernadette). What’s especially disturbing though is that people who go there and get wrapped up into it are all looking for signs (rosaries turning gold, scent of roses, a statue that emits water). The greatest miracle all of us can experience is the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacarament and that happens every day in every Catholic Church. The Adoration chapel in Medjugorje does not have the attendance one sees in Fatima. Enough said!

The Medjugorje apparitions are true - this is a no brainer…
Pope John Paul believed in them fully !
Those in the extreme left don’t accept them, like fr. Richard McBrien of Notre Dame. - And now many conservatives also reject these apparitions, and say that pope John Paul was wrong (Patrick Madrid did).
It is a simple test of veracity - Every one of the 10 secrets will be announced days in advance of the event itself.

In answer to Andrew:
One of the local Fransiscan priests, Tomislav Vlasic, had a big disagreement with one the the Medjugore “seers”;  he left the priesthood and followed a lady called Agnes. -  As for father Jozo, he has not been involved in any such scandal and is a priest in good standing. So Andrew, you have your facts wrong and are making false accusations against Fr. Jozo ofm

None of us can say with any certainty whether these apparitions are true. We can have opinions and I am of the opinion that absolutely nothing miraculous is occurring. Just the fact that “messages are being communicated”, some even at different locations by these “visionaries” for over 30 years is reason enough to doubt what is occurring there. Additionally, Father Tomislav Vlasic the former spiritual advisor to the “visionaries” was laicised by Pope Benedict XVI. The local diocese does not support the authenticity of the apparitions. The investigation on whether Medjugorje is authentic is ongoing and we will have to wait for the final word.

Julie, let me put is this way: I am certain that pope John Paul was right about these apparitions, he wholeheartedly believed in them.

@Joseph - Pope John Paul II had an opinion but it does not translate to fact. Only God knows the truth so why not just leave it to Him to reveal the truth to us.

+All praise to Jesus Christ+

The Church has three criteria for discerning/evaluating if an apparition is true/false: 1) the message contents: if it is in conformity with the teachings of the Catholic Church (in regards to faith and morals) (also allowing for the possibility of a minor error due to the humanity of the visionary. 2) Phenomena: any extraordinary experiences with reported apparitions, particularly ecstasy of the visionary. 3) Spiritual fruits: in Matthew 7, Jesus says that you will know a tree by its fruits, so are there lasting conversions, consistent returns to pray and sacrifice for the life of the Church?

All three of these criteria must be taken into consideration together.

As far as Medj goes, it meets all of these criteria [Messages of faith, prayer, fasting, conversion, and peace; visionaries in ecstasy; seminaries in Europe filling because of the spiritual fruits, etc.]. The Church, in her wisdom, has not made an official statement on its authenticity while it is still under all of the investigation of proper discernment.

In regard to the scandals, let’s look at the example of Jesus and His followers. Judas, Peter, the other Apostles… If Medj is to be discounted because of a scandal, then Jesus might as well be discounted as well. Jesus works with fallen humans. This is why the Church gives these three criteria and discerns alleged apparitions from them.

With regard to message contents - at least one message that I am aware of “All religions are the same” contradicts Church teaching. Fruits? Isn’t a scandal a contraction to fruits of an apparition? I think so.

I visited Medjugorje last June. I believe Mary is appearing there. There is just way too many stories of people turing to Christ because of Medjugorje. You have to visit the place and then you will know that it is true just by seeing the fruits. Don’t criticize before visiting Medjugorje.

Julir:  Our Lady never said “ALL RELIGIONS ARE THE SAME” What she did say is we should “RESPECT ALL RELIGIONS”  Big difference!!!!

PLEASE be careful not to spread false rumors.  Remember… you may be contradicting the will of God in doing so!

I believe Satan is violently opposed to Medjugorje and his minions are twisting facts and relaying info. out of context with the intent of discrediting Medjugorje.  Here’s what Mary said:
“Members of all faiths are equal before God.” 
http://www.medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no20
YES!  God loves us ALL!!!  Granted, some of us are confused - and some deeply confused.  He takes that into account.  He is a merciful and just God.

@ Ken - Which response is correct? - @Carol Cohoon - Our Lady never said “ALL RELIGIONS ARE THE SAME” What she did say is we should “RESPECT ALL RELIGIONS”  Big difference!!!! or yours?

@Julie - Ken’s quote is accurate. “Members of all faiths are equal before God.” 

As a person who was an agnostic and away from the church for 17 years, it was though the miracle of Medjugorge that I came back to the faith. It started for me by finding a newspaper article posted in a hardware store in 1987 on Mothers Day. The Wayne Weible article I found posted on a wall intrigued me to do much more reading both pro and con. The reading finally inspired an urge to return to confession on a Saturday morning.

I checked the schedules for confession at churches near by and went. Nobody was there! Even though they were supposed to be I was locked out and went to another church that had confessions scheduled at that time. Nobody there again as I was pulling and rattling and shaking on the locked doors again. I went home and called one of the churches and talked to a priest and asked him to hear my confession. He said to come over right away. I did and there was no answer at the rectory and again I was pulling and shaking the door. I knew that if I did not go to confession that day this urge may pass. I drove like a mad man to another church in the area got out of my car ran in the church, luckily the doors were not locked,  and saw a priest preparing at the altar. He was alone. The priest I had recognized because I had seen him before at a gym where I was working out at. I desperately said Father can I go to confession. He said yes. I confessed and he welcomed me back to church after such a long absence.

  I went to Medjugorge in 88, 89, and 90. My favorite part is the Mass at St. James Church. They are joyful faith filled powerful experiences. Medjugorge has been referred to as the confession box of the world. The Miracle of Medjugorge brought me back to the Church. I continue with frequent confession and Mass attendance. I believe that Mary is appearing to the visionaries and wait for the church to make its decision and will submit to what ever the church decides.

I really cannot understand why so many “good and pious” Catholics have such an unsubstantiated, critical and downright dismissive attitude toward an amazing Marian phenomenon which has literally produced so very much “good fruit!”  Those who say that Medjugorje is of Satan remind me of the religious leaders of Jesus’ day, who claimed that Christ was working miracles of healing and conversion of heart through Beelzebub.  And I think most of us remember what Christ’s response to them was.  Moreover, the Vatican has taken it upon itself to conduct the investigations; obviously, the Vatican would never have done this if they had been satisified with the conclusions of the Local Ordinary.  On a personal note, I have had the tremendous privelege of visiting this amazingly blessed land of pilgrimage, and until the Church states otherwise, I shall remain absolutely convinced of its authenticity.  While there on pilgrimage, I experienced profound physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual healing. Moreover, I could feel Our Lady at my side the entire time I was there, each of the four times I was there.  Of course, as a Catholic, I will give unconditional submission of intellect and will to whatever the official position of the Church turns out to be with regard to Medjugorje.  Yet, I simply cannot deny the reality of the beginning of a most profound intimacy of life with Christ, His Blessed Mother and His Mystical Body, the Church, that was fostered within me through my pilgrimages to Medjugorje. 

I guess my biggest problem with “super-pious Medjugorje haters” is that there are so many truly horrific things taking place in our pathetically sinful world, and so many of you “church-ladies” and “holier than the Pope Catholics” seem to have nothing better to do that to sit around your little church groups, gossiping about how “horrible” and “evil” Medjugorje is, without ever having been there for yourselves.  I’m certain that there were many ultra-pious Catholics, who, not unlike the “Medjugorje haters,” were entirely dismissive of Fatima and Lourdes while said apparitions were taking place and were under official Church investigation. And I’m sure that, not unlik many of you, they were quick to ridicule Fatima, the shepherd children, Lourdes and St. Bernadette. I imagine they must have felt pretty embarrassed when the Church officially and publicly declared these “private revelations as “worthy of belief.” Thus, to the so many Medgugorge detractors, I say: Withold judgement, if only to not make asses of yourselves.

I agree with Andrew Dec. 6 at 9.57 AM
Read these websites and you understand why Rome can never recognize Med. :

www.cbismo.com

www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/home.html

http://te-deum.blogspot.com/

The link that Mark provided to te-deum blogspot had a wonderfully written analysis by Catholic Culture of this situation. I concur. I really trust in Pope Benedict XVI to share with the faithful the truth.

One of ‘seers’ was expecting an apparition of the Mother Mary at a certain time. However, he was watching a very important soccer match and asked Mother Mary to appear at a different time. This ‘seer’ went on to marry an American beauty queen and become a successful business man. In the history of approved apparitions of the Virgin Mary, the phenomenon of Medjugorge is unlike any other. There are just too many inconsistencies in the account of the ‘seers’ to make all this worthy of belief. Putting words into the mouth of Mother Mary is an abominable offence, and showing blatant disobedience to the local church authorities is also regrettable - something that Mother Mary surely would not encourage.

I would be VERY surprised if the Vatican approves Medjugorge. In any case, no Catholic is actually obliged to believe in any apparition of the Virgin Mary including approved ones like Fatima and Lourdes. Only believing and following the teachings of Jesus Christ are what matters.

Medjugorje has accomplished much that the modern church has not. It has restored the prayer of the Rosary, it has restored confession as a central part of spirituality. It has converted millions and continues to do so. It has provided miracles that no demon could. Even approved apparitions had a LOT of opposition and little cooperation from the Church in fulfilling heaven’s requests. I don’t know why God’s own Church doesn’t want to hear what heaven has to say to us, and refuses to cooperate with very reasonable and grace-filled requests, but for some reason we find it easier to oppose. If this IS of God, it won’t stop, even under severe communistic persecution. I really hope it is approved.

We need to acknowledge that no apparition converts anyone. It is only God and God alone who converts us. Jesus Christ gave us the greatest gift we have here on earth in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist and He is there waiting for us in the Tabernacle in a nearby Catholic Church. We need not journey to the other side of the world to receive God’s grace. Apparitions, and especially unapproved apparitions, need to be put into their proper perspective. The Blessed Trinity should be first in our thoughts and heart. Our Blessed Mother would want this. She is our Mother who always points to her Son and is not the center of attention. It is she who said, “Do whatever He tells you.”

I suppose if you are willing to ignore the idiotic statements, insulting to the dignity of the Mother of God, the “seers” have attributed to their Gospa, then you’re probably predisposed to ignore the rotten fruits from Medjugorje as well, destroyed marriages, disrespect, to the point of violence, for ecclesial authorities, damaged eyesight from staring at the sun pridefully “demanding that it spin”, and a willingness to characterize blatant schismatic activity as merely a “political dispute,” to name a few.
I don’t expect devotees to even find it odd that Gospa gives predictions for her favorite sports teams, repeats clichés endlessly, teams up with Satan for a guest appearance at one of the “apparitions”and makes threats to “smite” the Bishop for not approving the madness, but I would expect that any sincere Catholic might give deep reflection on what possible sins of pride took place in giving assent to this profound idiocy for so many years and what this might mean for the future life of the Church. 

And to those who currently are in denial that the seers did attribute an “all religions are the same” remark to their Gospa, their Gospa emphasized the point immediately by saying only man has made these divisions between religions. Even if you want to believe all she said was “Respect all religions,” this would be evil in itself. Satan worship is a religion. So are the numerous religions in the world that tolerate or promote abortion.

Julie & Ken:  True:  She did say,  &  as I remember that “all people are equal before God”  Still a difference.  Show me the quote in oneof her messages where she said “all religions” are equal before God.

Would it make any difference to you if you personally spoke to a visionary who told you that “Gospa” did say that all religions are the same? And if not, why not? Don’t you recognize a moral obligation to be skeptical with apparition claims? Doesn’t the honor of the Mother of God mean enough to you to protect her honor from global humiliation? What interest do you suppose it is for those who can see through this obvious fraud to expose this obvious fraud?

For starters on your morally obligatory quest to exercise skepticism, should you recognize this moral obligation, you might go to Crisis magazine, a long time journal of heroic faithful Catholic commentary:  http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/the-devil-and-medjugorje

Here are a few excerpts:

Compared to approved apparitions of the Blessed Virgin, for example, at Lourdes and at Fatima, the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje contain numerous anomalous aspects:

In the initial appearances, the Gospa appears out of a cloud of light which gradually takes on the image of a young woman in her late teens. She has blue eyes and is wearing a gray dress. She looks like she is holding “something like a baby” in her arms, but none of the features of the baby can be seen. Her hands are shaking. She laughs. The visionaries are able to touch and kiss her, but her vestments are “steel to the touch.” When a lady doctor asked if she could touch her also, the Gospa agreed, but complained about “unbelieving Judases.”
Fr. René Laurentin, a supporter of Medjugorje, in his Chronological Corpus of the Messages, changed this obvious blooper to “doubting Thomases.”

In the first few years following the apparitions, around thirty different apparition places were chosen, with the Gospa appearing often as if “on cue.” Some of the messages, even in our open-minded era, would be categorized as not just heterodox, but heretical. We hear that all religions are equal (“Before God all the faiths are identical. God governs them like a king in his kingdom.”)

These excerpts just scratch the surface. I don’t have it in front of me, but Laurentin, in his book, finally admitted he was “troubled” that Gospa would invoke the claim that differences between religions are man-made. 

SPIRITDAILY NEEDS TO STOP PROMOTING MEDJUGORJE AND STOP PROMOTING WEBSITES THAT ARE PROTESTANT.

MICHAEL BROWN CLAIMS HIS WEBSITE IS CATHOLIC BUT HE PUBLISHES NEWS, AND WEBSITES THAT ARE PROTESTANT,OR TELL STORIES OF CONVERSION BUT FROM THE PROTESTANT POINT OF VIEW.

HE IS ONE OF MANY BENEFFINTING FROM THIS HOAX CALL MEDJUGORJE, AS FAR AS I AM CONCERN THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE MAKING MONEY BY PROMOTING THIS FALSE APPARITION.

WE HAVE ENOUGH CONFUSION IN THE CHURCH WE DON’T NEED ANYMORE!!!

ST.MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL PRAY FOR US!!!

Deoacveritati, Spiritdaily is probably the best Catholic news website there is. So what if Michael Brown sometimes shares articles from Protestant websites. Lot’s of those stories from protestant sites have good info. And what’s wrong when people believe the Medjugorje apparitions before the Church approves them? Did Jacinta and Bernadette from Fatima and Lourdes wait to believe Mary was appearing to them after it was approved form the Church? “Oh wait Holy Mother I can’t believe you are appearing to me until the Vatican approves this.” Get what I am saying?

Julie & Ken:  In October 1981, Our Lady answered the question “ARE ALL RELIGIONS THE SAME?”  She responded   “Members of all faiths are equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom.  In the world ALL RELIGIONS ARE NOT THE SAME because all people have not complied with the commandments of God.  They reject and disparage them”
So there it is - Our lady’s answer.  Religions are not all equal but before God, all people are.  It is not up to us to decide who is equal before God.  When & if we get to heaven we might very well be surprised who we meet there. 

@Carol - Thank you for your post. My position on Medjugorje has not changed and I remain skeptical until such time the Vatican provides the faithful with a response as to its authenticity or not.

Absolutely Julie.  Discernment is good & there is nothing wrong with being a skeptic.  I AM a firm believer in Medugorje.  However,  I too will be totally obedient to the Vatican. I have always said that.  After all Jesus sent to the Catholic Church the Holy Spirit down thru the apostles to guide us in truth. Jesus said ——and the gates of hell will not come against it.  If the Vatican & Pope concludes these apparitions are false, my heart will be broken; but my faith will stay firm -  we have the sacraments. I would cease & desist any activity promoting Medugorje if the Vatican & the Holy Father came down with a negative decision.  I believe in total obedience to the Holy Father & the Vatican.
As Catholics we are called to obedience.  If the Vatican is in error in its’ decision, then one day I believe God will bring clarity & correction.  With that said Julie, & Ed, let us love one another while waiting. Meanwhile,I consider Medugorje my spiritual second home - I just love the place!!!  In Peace, Carol

PETER YOU NEED TO GO OUT MORE, OR SURF THE NET MORE.
Spirit Daily IS NOT ONE OF THE BEST CATHOLIC WEBSITES.
AND MICHAEL BROWN IS AN OPORTUNIST MAKING MONEY WITH HIS SO CALLED LECTURES, AND PROMOTING ERROR BY POSTING PROTESTANT WEBSITES. TELLING US CATHOLICS ABOUT CONVERSIONS ACCORDING TO THE PROSTESTANT BELIEF.
THERE IS SOMETHING REALLY WRONG WHEN SO CALLED CATHOLICS START PUBLISHING PROTESTANT ARTICLES IN THEIR WEBSITES.  WHY???
BECAUSE PROTESTANTS ARE HERETICS AND THEY ARE STILL IN ERROR AND ERROR HAS NO RIGHTS.
MEDJUGORJE IS A SATANIC HOAX AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN IT ARE STILL IN DENIAL JUST LIKE THE IDIOTS WHO ARE STILL IN DENIAL ABOUT LANCE ARMSTRONG BEING A FRAUD AND A CHEAT, AND WORSE SOCIOPATH OR CYCLOPATH AS SOME REPORTERS ARE CALLING HIM.
I FOR MY PART I AM GLAD I DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE IN MEDJUGORJE IF THIS SO CALLED HOAX IS APPROVED BY THE CHURCH.
THE REALITY IS THAT WITH THE CRISIS WE ARE FACING THE CHURCH AND ALL THE LIBERALISM WE ARE CATHOLICS ARE FACING I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF MEDJUGORJE GETS APPROVED.
SHAME!!!

@Carol Well said! I don’t think everyone will be as obedient as you if Medjugorje is declared to not have anything supernatural occurring.

@Deoacveritaiti - We should have faith that the Vatican will do the right thing. I don’t think Pope Benedict XVI is worried about his popularity. He is a holy man of God.

Deoacveritati, When I was in Medjugorje last June I saw at least 15 priests hearing confessions all day long outside St. James Church. Eucharistic Adoration was every night outside for sometimes thousands of people. It was encouraged for people to take communion on the tongue and not in the hand. You also can’t ignore all the conversions of people because of that place. Look up the story of Fr. John Calloway. His story is amazing.

“YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE.”  THE GOSPELS

According to God, the purpose of our inherent Religious Liberty, is so that we can come to Know, Love, and Serve The Blessed Trinity, The True God, through our Lord and Savior, Jesus The Christ. Our Blessed Mother knows that in order to Love God, we must reflect the Love of God’s Holy Spirit, which flows from the ordered, complementary communion of Perfect Love between The Father and The Son.

The Catholic Church’s best known exorcist, Father Gabriel Amorth, says that Medjugorje is a spiritual stonghold and genuine apparition site.
Those who say it is the devil’s work are mistaken, modern day pharisees.
Pray and fast.!

There is not a chance that this phony apparition will be approved by magisterial authority.
Please, stop insulting the honor and dignity of the Mother of God with this phony apparition. For those of you claiming conversions, please, stop being so arrogant. Only God can judge the authenticity of a conversion.
For those of you claiming Rosary devotion, please don’t ignore how “Gospa” has demeaned the devotion. According to the seers, she prays the Hail Mary where she obviously identifies herself as a sinner (at Lourdes and Fatima she only prayed the Gloria), but she tells the seers they are not sinners and have no need for the sacraments. They don’t go to Church unless it’s a media event for their own aggrandizement.
As a figment of demonic imaginations, it’s not surprising to learn that Gospa is a Protestant. She tells the seers that no one has a need for an “intermediary” like a priest, but that God prefers you go directly to Him. (I doubt the seers would capitalize a pronoun reference to God)
For those of you still in denial she said “All religions are the same,” do you your homework honestly. The seers said she said precisely that and then when on to emphasize the point by saying all difference between religions are manmade.
If these fact don’t offend you then you are actively involved in insulting the Mother of God. Don’t ever forget that Satan doesn’t care if you leave the Church stage left or stage right. If you’re not the sort of warped Catholic who supports abortion, gay marriage, women priests, or other liberal idiocies, Satan hasn’t given up on you. If Satan can use the bible to lead souls out of the Church, he can use Marian devotion to lead people out of the Church.
Enthusiasm for this circus is not a positive sign. Going through the motions of devotion while primarily living in hope for a miraculous sign is not a good thing. As if insulting his Mother is not enough, we insult Our Lord when we remain oblivious to His warning that it is an evil generation that looks for a sign!!

Can Medjugorje stop the chastisement warned about at Fatima ? We are still heading in the same direction. Does Medjugorje suggest wearing the brown scapular suggested by Mary ? Perhaps the Vatican will approve Medjugorje hoping to bury Fatima for good.

Lee, Father Gabriel Amorth has no authority whatsoever to weigh in on Medjugorje, especially when he gives a stupid opinion. It is the determination of the local bishops that matter, and this has already been given.

Despite what Medjugorians claim, the bishop was not “relieved of his authority.” He requested that the Vatican make a determination because the madness and sinful arrogance is so out of hand.

Too much false information from the critics against Medjugorje on here. They have not done enough research or even visited the town.

I don’t think we should forget that there have been many a hoax in the past with flocks of people claiming conversion.returning to the faith, miracles etc. Medjugorje should be held at arm’s length awaiting a decision rather than jumping in all the way. Keep a wary eye open.

@Edward Baker - So you say that Rome’s exorcist, Gabriel Amorth ,is stupid for supporting Medjugorje! This priest has spent a lifetime helping people who are possessed.  I am certain that he has better judgement than you Edward, who does not even show respect to a holy brave priest. Maybe you need his help to discern better…

Whether he is holy or not is a matter that only God can know, but he clearly needs to discover some humility to avoid contradicting the local bishops. Second your concerns about stupidity might be more directed towards visionaries who place demonically stupid words into the mouth of their contrived fantasy they are leading the invincibly gullible into believing is the Mother of God. You might also consider the dishonor inherent by insulting the Mother of God for believing this nonsense.

Edward and others: The Pope has the authority to overule any local Bishop.
It is absurd that you think the Church’s top exorcist is not “humble”.
I am sure that to be a good exorcist a priest must be very humble…

If he was as humble as he should be, he would not be supporting a phony apparition that will aid and abet making the Church a laughingstock around the world when it is finally dismissed once and for all. And the Pope is not going to “overule” any bishop in the matter of an obviously phony apparition. It was the Mostar bishops, both of them, who saw through this idiotic fraud and asked the Pope to reinforce their position to which he agreed.

To all of you who think that those of us like myself have not visited Medjugorje we don’t know what we are talking about,... well allow me to educate you, some of us have expend years following this so call “Aparition” we have read as much as possible on the subject, we have watch videos about the apparition, we have read about the seers, their biographies, we have follow their apparitions in different places around the world, we have watch videos of the apparitions,watch them being interviewed etc… And now this is what is more important than anything else some of us spent time reading and studying individually, books, articles on ATUTHENTIC Marian Apparitions, Catholic Miracles, we have read books and articles on Catholic Mysticism we have visited Authentic Apparition sites such as Guadalupe, we have read about seers such as Bernadette, Lucia, Jacinta, Francisco and we have read about the lives of the Saints and their mystical encounters with Our Lord, and Blessed Mother, so whether you like it or not some of us are well read and informed on Catholic history and prepared enough to make a judgement on the subject of Medjugorje.
No we are NO authority on Medjugorje but we do have enough insight and information to believe that Medjugorje is not coming from Our Lord.
Some of us don’t want to believe in Medjugorje SIMPLY because we don’t want to but because something is definitely not right with Medjugorje.
So maybe is all of you fans of Medjugorje who need to do some studying and looking at Medjugorje from a more objective point view instead of attacking those of us who disagree with this apparition.
Ask yourselves the question what if this is not from God?
What if I am wrong and I have been duped by the devil and all those promoting an apparition that has some many questionable things about it?
What if the Medjugorje seers are being tricked by the devil?
What if some of those who disagree with Medjugorje are right?
Why would the Gospa be reapeating the same message over and over again?
Why is she appearing daily to this seers, why doesn’t she reveal the so called secrets now instead of waiting for us to practically condemmed ourselves to reveal the so called secrets? What is she waiting for?
WHY THE FEET OF THE “GOSPA” ARE NOT SEEN?
WHY ARE THEY COVERED IN A CLOUD?
Have things got any better in the world because she is appearing daily?
Have I really payed attention to some of the strange things she says in the messages or have I payed any attetions to the different stories some of the seers have said in relation the apparitions?
I know before I turned against Medjugorje I asked myself these questions and I didn’t like the answer, but now I feel peaceful when I say that I don’t buy this apparition is coming from Our Lord I certainly don’t believe it is Our Lady appearing there.

As Catholic we should not be declaring with absolutely certainty that the apparitions at Medjugorje are authentic. When we do that we do not speak with the Church which is what we are called to do. I’m attaching a link that addresses the laicization of Fr. Vlasic. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope_benedict_laicizes_priest_connected_to_alleged_medjugorje_apparitions/

@ Julie- You are right that we do not yet have ‘absolute certainty’ that these apparitions are real. We will all know for sure, when the 10 secrets or events, which will each be announced ahead of time, are fulfilled or not.
But the fact remain that Pope John Paul II believed in them and also Rome’s
appointed exorcist, Fr. Amorth. Talk about two heavyweights!

@Joseph -Pope John Paul II never made any official statement and Fr. Amorth is also not an official representative of the Church. Don’t you find the issue with Fr. Vlasic problematic?

@Julie - Fr. Tomislav Vlasic was an early spiritual director to one of the alleged visionaries, Marija.  He later had a rift, a strong disagreement with her, because he started following a strange lady called Agnes who led him astray claiming to be a mystic .  Father Vlasic wanted Marija to ask Our Lady for special favors for him and Agnes.  Marija said this was not proper and did not comply. So Fr. Vlasic broke all association with Medjugore long ago, and went to live with Agnes in another country. He later asked to be laiziced, after being disciplined.
It is true that John Paul II did not make an ‘official statement’ on Medjugorje, but he made many supporting private statements, specially to Bishops who asked his view on this (including my local bishop)...

I suppose if you’re willing to tolerate false witness against the Mother of God and viciously insult her by supporting the Medjugorian idiocy in the first place, the pope is easy by comparison. Blessed John Paul never endorsed Medjugorje. For those of you willing to bear false witness claiming he did (lying about the deceased counts too), you are obliged to state exactly what was said, when it was said, where it was said, and to whom it was said, something that has never taken place and never will take place.
It is dishonest to trivialize Vlasic’s laicization. Vlasic is the inventor of this demonic fantasy and was laicized specifically for heresy and schism.
The claim that Gospa doesn’t act as subservient to the seers defies their many convoluted and comical claims. The Gospa fantasy has repeatedly insulted and threatened the bishops, has called anyone who doubts the apparition a Judas, has told the seers they have no need for confession or the sacraments, has validated the infantile fantasy story of the world coming to an end if the town drunk had failed to throw a bloody handkerchief in the river, has prayed for the forgiveness of her sins while telling the seers they are without sin, and has agreed to come back another time when a couple of the seers decided they would prefer to watch a soccer game that conflicted with their normal vision on demand.

A priest I knew was asked about these apparitions and what his opinion was. He asnswered, “I don’t believe Our Lady is appearing there. A child knows the voice of its Mother. What they claim Our Lady says is certainly not the voice of the Blessed Virgin. Someone is putting words in her mouth.” I have the exact same opinion. I have always loved the apparitions of our Lady, and what is claimed she said in Medjugorge is certainly not our Lady speaking. Not speaking too much is a virtue. And here we have over 25,000 apparitions, with much of what is said repetitions which many times contradict themselves. Those who go to Medjugorge and stay at one of the seers homes are treated to their own private apparition. Rome has barred the so called seers from the parish Church of Medjugorge. Rome has confined their spiritual director to a Monastery, with the threat of excommunication should he speak to others on the alleged apparitions. Bl. John Paul ll gave orders that priests are not to lead pilgrimages to Medjugorge. The greatest sign that our Lady is not appearing there is the unbelievable vast disobedience to the Church.

August 1, 1989 address by the Pope to a group of Italian physicians dedicated to defending unborn life and to making scientific and medical studies on the apparition, as reported by Bishop Paul Hnilica, SJ, Auxiliary Bishop of Rome: “TODAY’S WORLD HAS LOST ITS SENSE OF THE SUPERNATURAL, BUT MANY ARE SEARCHING FOR IT - AND FIND IT IN MEDJUGORJE, THROUGH PRAYER, PENANCE AND FASTING.”

June 1986 response to a group of twelve Italian bishops seeking pastoral advice on people making pilgrimages to Medjugorje. “LET THE PEOPLE GO TO MEDJUGORJE IF THEY CONVERT, PRAY, CONFESS, DO PENANCE AND FAST.”

The Pope said to Fr. Jozo Zovko on the 20th July 1992: “BUSY YOURSELF WITH MEDJUGORJE, LOOK AFTER MEDJUGORJE, DON’T TIRE. PERSEVERE, BE STRONG, I AM WITH YOU. WATCH OVER, FOLLOW MEDJUGPORJE.”

In a private conversation with the visionary Mirjana Soldo the Pope said: “IF I WERE NOT POPE I WOULD ALREADY BE IN MEDJUGORJE CONFESSING.”(1987)

More quotes from Pope John Paul II—

The Archbishop of Paraguay, Mons. Felipe Santiago Bentez, in November of 1994 asked of the Holy Father, the Pope if he was right to give approval to the faithful gathering in the spirit of Medjugorje, especially with the priests of Medjugorje. The Holy Father answered: “APPROVE ALL THAT IS RELATED TO MEDJUGORJE”.

Pope John Paul II, in response to a question asked by the Archbishop of Asuncion, La Paz, Bolivia. - Feb. 1995 “AUTHORIZE EVERYTHING THAT REGARDS MEDJUGORJE”

“MEDJUGORJE IS A GREAT CENTRE OF SPIRITUALITY!” - The Holy Father’s comment during a February 1990 conversation, as reported by Bishop Murilo Krieger, Auxiliary Bishop of Florianopolis, Brazil, made prior to His Grace’s fourth Medjugorje pilgrimage. The Holy Father assented to Bishop Krieger’s request and gave his papal blessing to the visionaries (National Catholic Register, April 29,1990)

“IF I WASN’T THE POPE, I’D BE IN MEDJUGORJE ALREADY!” - Reported April 21, 1989 by Bishop Paul Hnilica, SJ, Auxiliary Bishop of Rome, after having been admonished by the Holy Father for not stopping in Medjugorje on his return trip to Rome from a meeting in Moscow on behalf of the Pope.

You might note that (then) Cardinal Ratzinger on 22/7/98 responding to questions about what the pope said about Medjugorje—“they are complete inventions”.

This is no hoax…
Thousands of pilgrims , hundreds of priests and Bishops visit Medjugorje, and pray, confess, convert.

Thousands of people claiming to have been taken on board an alien spacecraft do not make it authentic. Numbers are only one a aspect of an investigation.They are not of themselves conclusive.People are anxious to believe.At least these ones are hoping and looking for God.Time will tell.

In May 1998, a German religion journalist, Luitpold A. Dorn, wrote to Cdl. Ratzinger and sent him a published list of quotations attributed to Pope John Paul II and to him, from the German newsletter “Schwarze Brief”.
The reply from Cdl. Ratzinger, signed and dated 22 July 1998, thanked the writer and said: “Ich kann dazu nur sagen, dass die dem Heiligen Vater und mir zugeschriebenen Äusserungen über Medjugorje frei erfunden sind.” (Translation: “On that subject, I can only say that the statements attributed to the Holy Father and to me are complete fabrications.”)
The letter is mentioned in various documents on the internet, was published in L’OSSERVATORE ROMANO, and was first published in the book “Mirror of Justice” (Mostar Diocese, 2001).

Once you develop the honorability to cease repeating these false claims about the Pope, you can get back to trying to develop enough honorability to explain how you take no offense at those “vsionaries” who are willing to claim the Mother of God can be saying idiotic things.

Careful John,people who belong to sects have claimed to be looking to God and look back and think for a moment what happen to Jim Jones and his followers.

All of us are called to pray and discern, and use caution.

Douay-Rheims Bible
2 Corinthians > Chapter 11 > Verse 14

And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.

Oh my… Edward J. Baker… Methinks thou dost protest too much!

For everyone else… Time will tell.

CARDINAL RUINI IS IN A CONTROVERSIAL SITUATION: HE ALLEGEDLY CAN SEE THE DEAD IN HEAVEN AND NOW HAS TO DECIDE IF THE MEDUGORJE SEERS CAN REALLY SEE OUR LADY IN HEAVEN
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/12/cardinal-ruini-is-in-controversial.html#links

THE SSPX HAS TO ACCEPT VATICAN COUNCIL II AS A CONTINUITY WITH TRADITION AND WHAT ABOUT CARDINAL CAMILIO RUINI?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/12/the-sspx-has-to-accept-vatican-council.html#links

For anyone with any respect for the Mother of God, the time is at hand.

IT is amazing to see people worked up over a POSSIBLE apparition when the real one is ongoing in spite of Vatican Cardinals Sodano and Bertone to bury Fatima and it"s prophesies. We still have to face Her words-“many nations will be annihilated” and the third secret is still hidden again in spite of those cardinals.Do we not worry over a very strong word used by Her-not just punished but “annihilated”. I don’t know about you but it scares me.She made requests that when done will bring peace.The Vatican says they were done-do you see peace anywhere ? We are looking in the wrong direction.We are to pray daily the rosary for world peace and the conversion of Russia and keep the 5 first Saturdays—are we ? I am finished with this conversation.

If Vatican Council II is in accord with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus then most people do not go to Heavn.
There are Catholic priests in Rome who say we do not know any case of a visibl baptism of desire etc. So Vatican Council II does not contrdict itself or the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

If Vatican Council II has no known excptions to the dogma i.e there is no known salvation outside the Church, then the Council contradicts the Medugorje message which says most people go to heaven.

John Medjugorje is eclipsing Fatima.
Many think that the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary signifies an era of eartly peace for people in this world with a great King and a good Pope.

The reality is that Our Lady’s Triumph is the Triumph of Her Son, meaning the Return of Our Lord Jesus Christ to the Earth.
At this point in history Our Lord is the ONLY ONE who can bring Peace to the world.
Jesus is a King, a Prophet and a Priest.
The great French Monarch many people believe is going to appear to restore peace to Christendom is no other than Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
There is NOT going to be French Monarch period.
Now nobody knows when the Return of Our Lord Jesus Christ to the Earth will be but many Theologians believe we are living in the Apocalyptic times.
How far we are in them? well only God knows.
Other mistake people make is that they get caught up on the Third Secret of Fatima. It is not hard to figure out the Third Secret, if we look at the Crisis of Faith the Church is going through, we can put two and two together. There is an Apostasy going on in the Catholic Church today. Many Bishops and priests have fallen away from the Faith. Many bishops and priests don’t even believe in the Sacraments they impart. They impart the Sacraments but for them is just part of their job, they don’t necessarily impart them believing that the SACRAMENTS are vehicles to receive Santifying Grace from Our Lord.
Look at the Novus Ordo Masses in many parishes around the world, they look more like Protestant services than Catholic Mass.
The so called Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church, comes from the Pentecostal protestant movement.
Apostasy in the Church is coming from the highest levels of the Clergy.
JPII was responsable for many Catholic Masses that were simply not Catholic. We now have technology available to us. Look for videos on the internet. Find videos of Cardinal Schönborn and his sacrilegious Masses they are on Youtube.
Medjugorje have many priests who follow it but how many of them are living saintly lives.
Many of these priest need to go to confession themselves.

You know the thing about an eclipse is that if you look at it the wrong way it can damage your vision which is what has happened here.Of course you can guess at the third secret but those who have seen it were shaken by the content.Your limited guess does not bring about the same reaction,not even close.It is strange you ignore Her words that peace will only come through Her.Choose Medjugorje if you like but be prepared for the worst disappointment.You need to re-read Fatima.

  I read a book about these alleged “visions” back in the late 1990’s by E Michael Jones, and in it were the story about the land in Eastern Europe and its history, than about how the visions started and the visionaries and their pastor. It does not paint a very good picture. It goes on to mention the local Bishop’s views that nothing supernatural is going on their. Finally it talks about the Charismatic Movement’s penchant for brainwashing and priests getting nuns pregnant (Fr. Vlasic) etc. He got a lot of hate mail for his book. To me those who support it by saying that since the chief exorcist or John Paul believes in it must make it so etc. BTW we are NOT as Catholics bound to believe in any Vision even if it is authentic, as a matter of Faith. Only the four Gospels. No new Revelation.

You might not believe me but I am not guessing.
I study and learn from priests who study the subject.

When you say “.It is strange you ignore Her words that peace will only come through Her.”
Our Blessed Mother never points to herself, but she always point to her Son.
Fatima was a warning to the world that the time is short and her Son is coming to Judge the world.
The Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary is the Triumph of her Son in the world.
What happens is that you like many others want the world to keep on going and going and going, you want an earthly peace rather than a heavenly peace.
The reality that this world as we know it might stop ceasing scare you like it scares many people. That is why many want peace in the world but without Christ reigning in it. Many prefer the so called French Monarch to appear so there can be an earthly peace,rather than Our Lord Himself REIGNING AS THE RIGHTFUL KING.

>>>>Posted by Carol Cohoon on Thursday, Dec 6, 2012 3:52 PM (EDT):Julir:  Our Lady never said “ALL RELIGIONS ARE THE SAME” What she did say is we should “RESPECT ALL RELIGIONS”  Big difference!!!!

Medjugorje: Oct. 1, 1981: “All religions are equal before God,” says the Virgin. (Chronological Corpus of Medjugorje, p. 317) WRONG!
Holy Roman Catholic Church:  The Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded upon his death on the Cross.  All other religions are heretical, false, and therefore anathema. CORRECT!
Medjugorje: “I do not dispose of all graces…Jesus prefers that you address your petitions directly to him, rather than through an intermediary.” (Chron. Corp. p.181, 277-278) WRONG
Holy Roman Catholic Church:  The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), “...she [Mary] is our Mother in the order of grace.” “For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix.”
Pope Leo XIII: She has “practically limitless power”
Pope St. Pius X: She is the “dispensatrix of all the gifts” and the “neck” connecting the Head of the Mystical Body of Christ to the Members.  And all power flows through the neck. 
Pius XII: “Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.”
Mary is the Mediatrix of all Grace.  The teaching is infallible.  CORRECT
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm
“God directs all denominations as a king directs his subjects, through the medium of his ministers” (“The Apparitions at Medjugorje,” by Fr. Svat Kraljevic, 1984, p.58)

“It is you who are divided on this earth. The Muslims and the Orthodox, like the Catholics, are equal before my Son and before me, for you are all my children.” (Fr. Ljubic, p.71)

“The Madonna said that religious are separated in the earth, but the people of all religions are accepted by her Son.” Ivanka Ivankovic (The Apparitions of Our Lady of Medjugorje, Francisco Herald Press, 1984)

Question: “Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?” Answer: “No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son.” Vicka Ivankovic. (The Visions of the Blessed Mother at Medjugorje, St. Martin’s Press, August, 1992)

The last one is a beaut. No, Our Lady is NOT calling people to be Catholic?? That should send a million RED flags up. ALL religions are dear?  The Roman Catholic Church has already declared these as heresies.
Medjugoje is NOT from Heaven. The church has declared the dogma “Outside the church there is no salvation…” 3 times.
Pope Innocent III: “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

Pope Boniface VIII: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

Pope Eugene IV: “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Cantate Domino, 1441.)

WOW-I can’t believe how far out you are-French Monarch ?  So you are not guessing-you study and learn-well tell me how did it feel to be terrified when you learned the third secret-everyone else had that fear but I suppose you are different. What is this garbage about people like me wanting the world to continue ? You know nothing about me. I have lived 3/4 of a century- I am as ready to leave this world as you are.
You use HIS NAME like it was your own personal weapon. Are you sure you do not think you are the French Monarch ? Of course Mary points to Her Son but it is through Her Immaculate Heart that peace will come. Your eclipse has really blinded you. Respond as you like, I see your logic has failed you but I will remember you at mass Sunday.

@Thomas. I do not believe that Medjugorje is authentic. That being said the Catechism of the Catholic Church states the following:”..........all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized” (CCC 1281).

From Catholic Answers: “In recent times, the Church has recognized that its teaching about the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation has been widely misunderstood, so it has “re-formulated” this teaching in a positive way. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address this topic: “How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846). All peoples are saved through the Catholic Church whether they are Catholic or not.  Pope John Paul II wrote a book about the different faiths. All Christians are connected through our believe in Jesus Christ. The Orthodox Church has a valid priesthood and sacraments.The Catholic Church has the fulness of the truth while other Protestant denominations have some truth in them.  We are connected to the Jews because they are our brothers in the faith. I do believe that God loves all of his children even those that seem unlovable to us, or whether they even know He exists. He wants all to be saved though I do not believe all have or will be. If we reject God’s invitation to spend eternity with Him, He will not force us.

John what are you talking about?
Don’t twist my words.
I am not talking about being ready to leave this world.
I am saying that Christ can return soon. You and me could still be alive.
About the third secret many don’t think the Third Secret of Fatima has not been reveal or at least not completely revealed by the Holy See.
I personally have my doubts about what we were told by the Holy See regarding the third secret.
NO, THANK GOD I AM NOT THE FRENCH MONARCH, AND THANKS FOR OFFERING TO PRAY FOR ME PRAYES ARE ALWAYS WELCOME.
One more thing the fact that you don’t get what I am saying doesn’t necessarily mean that my logic has failed me.
It can mean one of these many things:
You simply don’t get me.
You don’t want to hear what I am saying.
You don’t like what I am saying.
Or maybe it is your logic that has FAILED YOU.

John what are you talking about?
Don’t twist my words.
I am not talking about being ready to leave this world.
I am saying that Christ can return soon. You and me could still be alive.
About the third secret many think the Third Secret of Fatima has not been revealed or that at least it has not been completely revealed by the Holy See.
I personally have my doubts about what we were told by the Holy See regarding the third secret.
NO, THANK GOD I AM NOT THE FRENCH MONARCH, AND THANKS FOR OFFERING TO PRAY FOR ME PRAYES ARE ALWAYS WELCOME.
One more thing the fact that you don’t get what I am saying doesn’t necessarily mean that my logic has failed me.
It can mean one of these many things:
You simply don’t get me.
You don’t want to hear what I am saying.
You don’t like what I am saying.
Or maybe it is your logic that has FAILED YOU.

thomas/Carol Cohoon

If Our Lady did say that all religions are equal and every one does not have to convert into the Church for salvation could she be just repeating what the present Magisterum has been saying since the 1940’s and right through Vatican Council II ? And it is the Magisterium which decides if the apparitions are authentic.

Recently two Archbishops at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), Vatican said in the media that the SSPX will have to accept that non Catholics do not have to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation, and then only will they be granted canonical status.

The CDF Secretary Cardinal Luiz Ladaria S.J in two theological papers of the International Theological Commission has stated that Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for denying the exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma. The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 does not say so. He has to imply it and he does!Neither does Vatican Council II state that implicit salvation (invincible ignorance etc) is explicit or an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla sallus.

Cardinal Camilio Ruini President of the Vatican Commission on Medugorje assumes that the baptism of desire etc are known exceptions to the traditional teaching on salvation. For him these cases are visible on earth. He can see people dead and saved on earth.

So now imagine Our Lady saying all or most people are oriented to Hell.Would Cardinal Schonberg welcome the Medugorje seers in Austria as he did recently?

What would be the political reaction of non Catholics to the Medugorje message?

Julie

That same passage from the Catechism of the Catholic Church can be interpreted in agreement with the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
”...all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized” (CCC 1281).

All those who ‘without knowing of the Church…‘can be saved of course and we do not know specifically who these cases are on earth. Only God can judge. So they are not exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma on salvation as it was known for centuries.
‘How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body’ (CCC 846).
CCC846 also does not contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma since it is true that all who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church and of course, this does not contradict the dogmatic teaching that every one needs to enter the Church for salvation.We do not know any specific exception on earth.You seem to imply that it does contradict the dogma.

@Lionel - I was attempting to comment on the following statements made by Thomas. “Mary Mediatrix of all grace” is not an infallible dogma, at least not yet. “There is no salvation outside the Church” is meant to be understood that all are saved through the Catholic Church whether they are Catholic or not. It does not mean we must become members in order to be saved. We cannot say that if you are not Catholic you are a heretic. All Christians are connected in our common belief in Jesus and the Church recognizes that the Jewish people are still held in God’s favor.

Julie:

“There is no salvation outside the Church” is meant to be understood that all are saved through the Catholic Church whether they are Catholic or not. It does not mean we must become members in order to be saved.

Lionel:
Vatican Council II says we must be ‘members in order to be saved’.

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church’s preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself “by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. Ad Gentes 7

All need faith and baptism(AG 7) for salvation is also the dogmatic teaching defined thrice.

Julie
We cannot say that if you are not Catholic you are a heretic.

Lionel
According to Vatican Council II and the dogma when I meet a non Catholic I know he needs to convert for salvation.

While, when you meet a non Catholic you cannot say that he is saved through Jesus and the Church- you do not know. You do not know if he will be saved with the baptism of desire or invincible ignorance etc.This is known only to God.

Julie
All Christians are connected in our common belief in Jesus and the Church recognizes that the Jewish people are still held in God’s favor.

Lionel
According to Vatican Council II and the dogma they need to convert for salvation.While you and I do not know any exception on earth.

In conversations with non-believers I have found arguments go back and forth with little result.If you have the will to believe,then you will.If you are stubborn in you belief nothing will change you but a miracle. My final comment is always the same-we will meet in eternity one day and then we will know who is right and who is wrong but by then it will not matter.
I understand there is a link on this site to prevent receiving any further messages and I will use that link now.I still wish you all the best.

@Lionel - The Catechism of The Catholic Church should be your point of reference for understanding and preaching the faith. Your comments do not reflect that. Pulling passages out of the Second Vatican Council document is not prudent. The Catechism is very clear on Baptism and Baptism of Desire. Baptism is the ordinary means of salvation but those who are not even Christian can be saved if through no fault of their own they are not aware of Jesus but attempt to live their lives that are pleasing to Him. To say that Christians of another denomination are not united to Catholics is error. They are baptized and are already one with us in their belief of Jesus. Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Julie
The Catechism of The Catholic Church should be your point of reference for understanding and preaching the faith.

Lionel:
We have the same Catechism of the Catholic Church but two interpretations. One affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(mine) and the other assumes that there are known, explicit exceptions to the dogma(yours).

Julie
Your comments do not reflect that.

Lionel:
My comments are based on reason. All those who are saved are definitely saved through Jesus and the Church and since these cases are not known to us they do not contradict the dogma on salvation.

Julie:
Pulling passages out of the Second Vatican Council document is not prudent.

Lionel:
Ad Gentes 7 agrees with the dogma on salvation.So would Dominus Iesus 20 etc.

Julie:
The Catechism is very clear on Baptism and Baptism of Desire.

Lionel:
Yes. The Catechism does not say that we know cases on earth saved with the baptism of desire or that these cases are explicit and so are an exception to the dogma. You have to imply this error.

Julie:
Baptism is the ordinary means of salvation but those who are not even Christian can be saved if through no fault of their own they are not aware of Jesus but attempt to live their lives that are pleasing to Him.

Lionel:
Yes.Agreed. And since these cases are not known to us they are irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma.

Julie:
To say that Christians of another denomination are not united to Catholics is error. They are baptized and are already one with us in their belief of Jesus.

Lionel:
Ad Gentes 7 says they need Catholic Faith for salvation.
They do not have the Sacraments.They commit mortal sins. They divorce, contracep and abort and this is permitted by their communities.

The dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 like Vatican Council II says they need to convert for salvation. Cantate Domino refers to them as schismatics and heretics.

Julie:
Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Lionel:
For example Unitatis Redintigratio (UR) on Ecumenism in Vatican Council II refers to those in ‘imperfect communion with the Church’.
We do not know a single specific case of such a person saved. You will assume these cases are known and so interpret Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church accordingly.

I will accept them in principle as possibilities known to God only and so irrelevant to the dogma on salvation and not a contradiction of AG 7.

The interpretation is important since it is directly linked to the Medugorje message of Vicka.

Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez kissed a Medjugorje crucifix: http://www.medjugorjetoday.tv/8285/president-kisses-medjugorje-crucifix/.

CARDINALS WHO HAVE CHANGED THE FAITH FOR POLITICAL REASONS ARE TO EVALUATE MEDUGORJE

May be Medugorje could be approved by the Commission for ‘the wrong reasons’.It’s a sad time that we live in when the magisterium is in error and may be Our Lady has adapted to it and has continued her wonderful pastoral work at Medugorje.

In mission countries, Asia and Africa, the people are illiterate and do not know doctrines of the faith but they know the pastor, and they know his pastoral work and when they live according to the Catholic pastors basic teachings they can be saved.

Since the Medugorje apparitions are still continuing the seers can clarify the controversy over Vicka’s statement on most people going to Heaven instead of Hell.

I spoke to Fr.Slavko Barbaric OFM , the Spiritual Director of the seers in the early 1980’s, he told me Our Lady did not say that all religions are equal. He also said that Our Lady never said that the holiest person in Medugorje was a Muslim, he did not know how that story came about.

Assuming Our Lady did say all religions are equal paths to salvation and non Catholics do not have to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation, this is exactly what the present day magisteium is teaching -in public.

When the Vatican was asked to change its teaching on the Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews, the Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone wrote a letter to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, which is still available on the Internet.Cardinal Bertone cited the article by Walter Kaspar on the front page of the L’Osservatore Romano.It said, in the name of Vatican Council II, that Jews do not have to convert in the present times.This letter was approved by Pope Benedict XVI and the Chief Rabbinate.

The President of the Italian Bishops Conference, Cardinal Bagnasco, in an official letter of the Conference, said before two liberal rabbis that Jews do not have to convert for salvation.

So Our Lady is only repeating what is acceptable to those who can end her pastoral work at Medugorje.

She could express the traditional teaching that most people go to Hell.As Jesus said ‘Enter through the narrow gate for the road to Hell is wide and most people take it’.There would be threats again.The pope would have to end pilgrimages to Medugorje.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,Vatican over a doctrinal issue ended the legitimacy of the Orthodox Christian seer Vassula Ryden, well known at Medugorje in the early 1990’s.Yet doctrinally, in public; through the media and official statements , the CDF is teaching doctrinal error for political reasons.

G.K Chesterton says that when dogma and doctrine are thrown overboard in the name of expedience, it is the work of the devil.When cardinals and bishops do not assert themself on on this issue, I have to quote a layman like Chesterton.

Only God can know the exact number of people killed in the terrible Holocaust. Yet Bishop Richard Williamson cannot be accepted as a bishop by the Vatican nor be a member of the SSPX.

So Our Lady must definitely be aware of all these ‘practical necesities’

At Lourdes there were 18 apparitions of Our Lady. At Fatima there were 6 apparitions. In the New Testament there are recorded very few but highly important words of Our Lady. She is very economical and precise with words. In Medjugorge there is a huge flood of ‘messages’, 33,000 and still counting; and St John, who shared his home with Our Lady and who knew her better than anyone else living at that time, wrote about that most uncharateristic phenomenon of verbosity which is said to come from Our Lady at Medjugorje. This is what he wrote. “Then the serpent vomited water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood”. (Rev: 12, 15).

Ignatius of Antioch - (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110])

“Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church.” OBEY THE BISHOP - St. Ignatius of Antioch said it so well as did the local bishop, Bishop Peric “If, as Catholics, devoted sons and daughters of the church, we want to live according to the norms and the teaching of the church, glorifying the Holy Trinity, venerating Blessed Mary ... and professing all the church has established in the creed, we do not turn to certain alternative ‘apparitions’ or ‘messages’ to which the church has not attributed any supernatural character.”  We, as Catholics, are to obey the Bishop. Understood properly this means that none of us should be stating that things are true until the Bishop confirms they are. To do so is to be disobedient. With all due respect to all of you who are insisting that Medjugorje is authentic, you are being disobedient.  Because of the disobedience of many people flocking to Medjugorje, the Vatican had to do something and has undertaken an investigation. And still, people continue to go and insist it is authentic. Unlike pride,obedience is a virtue and it is one that we all should embrace.

Ignatius of Antioch - (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110])

“Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church.” OBEY THE BISHOP - St. Ignatius of Antioch said it so well as did the local bishop, Bishop Peric “If, as Catholics, devoted sons and daughters of the church, we want to live according to the norms and the teaching of the church, glorifying the Holy Trinity, venerating Blessed Mary ... and professing all the church has established in the creed, we do not turn to certain alternative ‘apparitions’ or ‘messages’ to which the church has not attributed any supernatural character.”  We, as Catholics, are to obey the Bishop. Understood properly this means that none of us should be stating that things are true until the Bishop confirms they are. To do so is to be disobedient. With all due respect to all of you who are insisting that Medjugorje is authentic, you are being disobedient.  Because of the disobedience of many people flocking to Medjugorje, the Vatican had to do something and has undertaken an investigation. And still, people continue to go and insist it is authentic. Unlike pride,obedience is a virtue and it is one that we all should embrace

Posted by Deoacveritati on Monday, Dec 10, 2012 3:00 PM (EDT):John

DEOACVEITATI:The great French Monarch many people believe is going to appear to restore peace to Christendom is no other than Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
There is NOT going to be French Monarch period.

THOMAS: How did you arrive at this Deo?  It’s an interesting statement and I’m curious to find out how you came to believe this. Serously.

THERE CAN BE TWO INTERPRETATIONS OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND CARDINALS WHO USE THE IRRATIONAL ONE ARE TO JUDGE MEDUGORJE

It is the same Catechism of the Catholic Church and one can interpret passages in agreement with the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Or, one can interpret passages irrationally, assuming the dead are visible.This would be a break with the past. A rupture with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

o assume those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are visible to us on earth and so are exceptions to the dogma is irrational. This is the interpretation being used by the President of the Vatican Commission Investigating Medugorjore, Cardinals of the Vatican Curia and Archbishops at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1281 :Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).

Cardinal Camilio Ruini and cardinals:
For the cardinals these catechumens are known to us in 2012 and so they are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which says all need to convert into the Church for salvation(to avoid Hell).

Lionel: We do not know any of these catechumens in 2012 so they are not an exception to the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.The cardinals reviewing Medugorje are using an irrational interpretation.Vicka’s message will be controversial. Since which interpretation are you using ? One interpretation indicates most people go to Heaven and the other indicates most people do not go to Heaven.

CCC 1257 :The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

Cardinals: God is not bound by his sacraments and so every one on earth does not need the baptism of water for salvation.

Lionel: God is not bound by his sacraments and we accept this in principle, as a possibility,only. We do not known any such case in 2012 and so it does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. CCC 1257 and CCC 1281 are in accord with the thrice defined dogma on salvation.
It is irrational for the cardinals to assume that the dead who are saved are visible.

CCC 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

Cardinals: The baptism of desire and blood are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Lionel: Baptism of desire and blood refer to cases known only to God. So they cannot be exceptions to the dogmatic teaching on salvation.

CCC 1259 :For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

Cardinals: The Catechumens can be saved without the baptism of desire and these cases are known to us.So they are exceptions to the dogma.

Lionel: Yes in principle as a possibility they can be saved without the baptism of water if God chooses it as such. However this is a hypothetical case. In 2012 all need the baptism of water for salvation since we cannot meet any exceptions to the dogmatic teaching.

CCC 1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.“63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Cardinals: A man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and his Church can be saved. So this is an exception to Tradition and especially the dogma on salvation.

Lionel:A person can be saved in invincible ignorance and these cases are irrelevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. We cannot know who is saved with implicit salvation. It is not explicit for us.

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,“64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Cardinals :We can entrust them to the mercy of God.

Lionel: We can entrust them to the mercy of God.

CCC 846 :How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

Cardinals: All who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church.

Lionel: Yes and this does not contradict the dogma. We cannot meet someone on the street who we know is saved by Jesus and the Church or is going to be saved as such.

CCC 847 :This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Cardinals: Those who saved through no fault of their own are exceptions to the dogma.

Lionel: They are unknown to us in 2012.

CCC 848 .“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

Cardinals: They can be saved who are in ignorance through no fault of their own.

Lionel: It was Cardinal Richard Cushing, the Archbishop of Boston, in the Fr.Leonard Feeney case who assumed that those saved in ignorance were exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma. If Fr.Leonard Feeney accepted or rejected these cases it was irrelevant to his literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

The liberal, non traditional interpretation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church comes from assuming that the dead who are saved are visible to us and so are an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This interpretation has no basis in the Catechism. Since the Catechism does not state that these cases are visible or are an exception to the dogma. This is implied by the cardinals.They cannot provide any reference from the Catechism for their error.

The Catechism is in accord with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors.

@Lionel How can there be two interpretations of the Catechism? This is not impossible. If we adopt this way of thinking then there is no Truth. The Catechism of the Catholic Church provides us with a correct interpretation unless the Holy See has accepted a change to it. This is precisely why we are a Church that has Magisterial teaching and that is to protect us from not falling into error.

@Deoacveritati - Who are these many people who believe a great French Monarch is going to appear to restore peace? How did you come by this information?

Apologies - correction to my post -

@Lionel How can there be two interpretations of the Catechism? This is NOT POSSIBLE. If we adopt this way of thinking then there is no Truth. The Catechism of the Catholic Church provides us with a correct interpretation unless the Holy See has accepted a change to it. This is precisely why we are a Church that has Magisterial teaching and that is to protect us FROM FALLING INTO ERROR.

@Deoacveritati - Who are these many people who believe a great French Monarch is going to appear to restore peace? How did you come by this information?

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/vatican-medjugorje-commission-findings-not-imminent#ixzz2EwmuKS8U

I hreard that according to the German theologian, Manfred Hauke, the Gospa urged disobedience thirteen times to Bishop Zanic, who had originally been inclined favorably to the apparitions.In September, 1981, the prophecy that “Germany and the U.S. will be destroyed,…the Pope will be exiled to Turkey,” never took place. Nor did peace for Yugoslavia predicted by the Gospa during the 80s. Yugoslavia broke up during the Bosnian war, 1992-95, leading to the violent separation of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina from Serbia. Many of the so called predictions are false Our Lady would promote disobedience This as become very childish and silly. I personally believe it is the work of the Devil to divide and lead people away From Christ & his Church these do not resemble Fatima Akita Lourdes our Lady is Humble. This sounds more like left wing Bayside.
I recently had an interesting dialogue concerning Blessed Pope John Paul II & Fatima this person a Traditional Catholic , Had posted a video clip of Fr.Gabriel Amorth he was talking about Fatima & Pope John Paul’s consecration. He stated That Pope John Paul II was not allowed to say Russia. This person who posted the Video was insisting that the consecration was not valid. I presented the other side of the argument, interviews with Sr.Lucia, & Also a former employee of Fr.Gruner’s who pretty much exposed Fr.Gruner as a fraud. Interesting that they were quite ignorant about Fatima, When I mentioned, for Instance William T Walsh’s Book about Fatima They snapped who’s Walsh. When i took direct quotes from Sister Lucia mentioning Pope Pius XII consecration they knew nada they only were interested in Fatima Network and sensationalism. Many Traditionalist do not support Medjugorje but support Bayside Prophecy??  I very much like Fr.Gabriel Amorth, I read some of his books, interesting to note this “so called” Traditionalist read none of them they only knew their sound bite from a youtube video. which they completely misinterpreted & twisted . I was also told about Mr.Salza an ex Mason, who has appeared on EWTN and states The Consecration was not valid. I was told but if he was on EWTN it must be true, I presented evidence of contrary opinion from EWTN Library, When I told them That Fr.Gabriel Amorth supported Medjugorje They said NO HE DOES NOT. He is the HEAD Exorcist. they had chanted this throughout our dialogue. I ignored this silly statement he is an exorcist for the diocese of Rome. I then presented them with Fr.Amorth’s Interview in his own words how he supports Medjugorje. They were truly upset by all the evidence i presented that was factual They said I will delete this conversation since its to upsetting . They did not want their friends to see the truth & know Fr.Amorth supports Medjugorje.They also lied about deleting the information i posted. I realized something about this person that they were not interested in the truth & they were a liar working for the Prince of Lies. and are a sad pathetic caricature of the Catholic Church. .  never ever would assume I know more then Pope John Paul II, I can assume that he prayed very very very hard over Fatima that is why he did the consecration again 1984. Can you imagine the sacrifices he offered. For the first time I thought about this, This was a very Holy Man very dedicated to Our Lady. I am sure he fulfilled Our Blessed Mother’s wishes, Gods ways are not ours.  We are fools and as a very great Priest who was devoted To Fatima stated, I love going on pilgrimages To Lourdes Fatima but I can see Jesus every day in the Blessed Sacrament. Sister Lucy before she died in an interview stated “he who is with the pope is with God, He who is not with The Pope is not with God. This is something many so called Traditionalist & others need to know. Our Lady’s warning was about disobedience To The Holy Father. Penance Penance Penance, Pope.John Paul when confronted by these fanatics held up the Rosary.
.All the faithful of Christ must believe “that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and that the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, the chief of the apostles, and is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church and faith, and teacher of all Christians; and that to him was handed down in blessed Peter, by our Lord Jesus Christ, full power to feed, rule, and guide the universal Church, just as is also contained in the records of the ecumenical Councils and in the sacred canons. God Bless The Holy Father!

I heard that according to the German theologian, Manfred Hauke, the Gospa urged disobedience thirteen times to Bishop Zanic, who had originally been inclined favorably to the apparitions.In September, 1981, the prophecy that “Germany and the U.S. will be destroyed,…the Pope will be exiled to Turkey,” never took place. Nor did peace for Yugoslavia predicted by the Gospa during the 80s. Yugoslavia broke up during the Bosnian war, 1992-95, leading to the violent separation of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina from Serbia. Many of the so called predictions are false Our Lady would promote disobedience This as become very childish and silly. I personally believe it is the work of the Devil to divide and lead people away From Christ & his Church these do not resemble Fatima Akita Lourdes our Lady is Humble. This sounds more like left wing Bayside.
I recently had an interesting dialogue concerning Blessed Pope John Paul II & Fatima this person a Traditional Catholic , Had posted a video clip of Fr.Gabriel Amorth he was talking about Fatima & Pope John Paul’s consecration. He stated That Pope John Paul II was not allowed to say Russia. This person who posted the Video was insisting that the consecration was not valid. I presented the other side of the argument, interviews with Sr.Lucia, & Also a former employee of Fr.Gruner’s who pretty much exposed Fr.Gruner as a fraud. Interesting that they were quite ignorant about Fatima, When I mentioned, for Instance William T Walsh’s Book about Fatima They snapped who’s Walsh. When i took direct quotes from Sister Lucia mentioning Pope Pius XII consecration they knew nada they only were interested in Fatima Network and sensationalism. Many Traditionalist do not support Medjugorje but support Bayside Prophecy??  I very much like Fr.Gabriel Amorth, I read some of his books, interesting to note this “so called” Traditionalist read none of them they only knew their sound bite from a youtube video. which they completely misinterpreted & twisted . I was also told about Mr.Salza an ex Mason, who has appeared on EWTN and states The Consecration was not valid. I was told but if he was on EWTN it must be true, I presented evidence of contrary opinion from EWTN Library, When I told them That Fr.Gabriel Amorth supported Medjugorje They said NO HE DOES NOT. He is the HEAD Exorcist. they had chanted this throughout our dialogue. I ignored this silly statement he is an exorcist for the diocese of Rome. I then presented them with Fr.Amorth’s Interview in his own words how he supports Medjugorje. They were truly upset by all the evidence i presented that was factual They said I will delete this conversation since its to upsetting . They did not want their friends to see the truth & know Fr.Amorth supports Medjugorje.They also lied about deleting the information i posted. I realized something about this person that they were not interested in the truth & they were a liar working for the Prince of Lies. and are a sad pathetic caricature of the Catholic Church. .  never ever would assume I know more then Pope John Paul II, I can assume that he prayed very very very hard over Fatima that is why he did the consecration again 1984. Can you imagine the sacrifices he offered. For the first time I thought about this, This was a very Holy Man very dedicated to Our Lady. I am sure he fulfilled Our Blessed Mother’s wishes, Gods ways are not ours.  We are fools and as a very great Priest who was devoted To Fatima stated, I love going on pilgrimages To Lourdes Fatima but I can see Jesus every day in the Blessed Sacrament. Sister Lucy before she died in an interview stated “he who is with the pope is with God, He who is not with The Pope is not with God. This is something many so called Traditionalist & others need to know. Our Lady’s warning was about disobedience To The Holy Father. Penance Penance Penance, Pope.John Paul when confronted by these fanatics held up the Rosary.
.All the faithful of Christ must believe “that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and that the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, the chief of the apostles, and is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church and faith, and teacher of all Christians; and that to him was handed down in blessed Peter, by our Lord Jesus Christ, full power to feed, rule, and guide the universal Church, just as is also contained in the records of the ecumenical Councils and in the sacred canons. God Bless The Holy Father!

peço desculpa a todos mas todos estão especulando eu já estive em medjugore
e não estou a espera que o Vaticano aprove ou não, no meu intimo eu acredito
e todo que vem de Deus sempre vence. Satanás esta infiltrado dentro da própria Igreja católica dentro do próprio Vaticano, olhemos para o mundo contaminado pelo pecado a própria igreja esta contaminada por Satanás. medjugorje é a esperança de salvação para este mundo que vive de costas viradas para Deus. Deus não pode tule-lar tanta corrupção neste mundo mesmo dentro da sua Igreja fundada com o seu próprio sangue infelizmente a muitos católicos padres bispos leigos corruptos é normal que Deus ira castigar o mundo e deixar que Maria nos venha alertar para a conversão e propio do coração misericordioso de jesus não vos preocupeis com a igreja aprove ou não preparai-vos para quando os segredos deixar de ser segredos ai Deus vai mostrar a força do seu braça e infelizes da aqueles que dentro da igreja estiver presos por Satanás. quando jesus veio a igreja que tenha sido escolhida por Deus para nascer desse povo o seu filho não acreditaram nele e mataram porque reinava o pecado dentro da própria igreja. nossa senhora em medjugorje esta sempre a pedir oração pelos sacerdotes e pelos que não conhece o amor de Deus . os sacerdotes são os pilares que quando tem santidade cocegue converter o povo que lhe é confiado porque não é ele quem fala mas sim jesus através do espírito santo. um sacerdote que viva em pecado afasta o povo que lhe foi confiado porque através dele fala o espírito maligno por isso eu vos digo a todos o tempo vai confirmar e não poderá demorar muito porque o padre
que vai divulgar os segredos já não é muito nova por isso a verdade vai vir ó de cima. qual quer pessoa pode vir a de-cernir quando tem muita santidade a santíssima trindade avita nela logo tem a visão do que vem de Deus ou do Diabo eu acredito em medjugorie Deus não me ade confundir porque o diabo não gosta de oração e meidjugore é um lugar de muita oração a muito fervorosa não pode vir do Diabo só de Deus pode vir o amor a paz e oração que na aquele sitio pobre e sufocado durante tanto tampo pelo comunismo Deus escolheo para nos mandar a nossa Mãe de céu para preparar o mundo para se converter antes de todos os castigos que a humanidade merece pelos seus pecados.

The first time people go to Medjugorje they do so to ‘see for themselves’. And what do they see when they get there? They see a crowd of people with the same mind set who are also there to ‘see for themselves’. These people look around at each other and see so many people ‘seeing for themselves’ that from this they conclude that therefore Our Lady is appearing in Medjugorje. The self delusion is evident. Much has been said about the need for people to go there and ‘see for themselves’. The accusation is levelled that if one does not go there to do that one is not in a position to know if Our Lady has appeared there or not. Well the bishops of the diocese have also been there and seen for themselves. They have also seen and heard for themselves what the ‘visionaries’ have done and said, and have judged that there is nothing in any of this to show that Our Lady appeared to the ‘seers’ or gave them any messages. Catholics are morally bound under the pain of sin to obey the bishops who have said that Catholics can go there for the same reasons that they might go to any Catholic Church in the world, including their own parish churches; but they are not permitted to go to Medjugorje to ‘see for themselves’ i.e. to pass judgement that would attribute a supernatural character to the ‘apparitions’. I could go to my own parish church, especially before Christmas and Easter, and see a lot of people going to confession. Should I conclude from this that therefore Our Lady is appearing to a someone in my parish? If people obeyed the bishop of Mostar and kept away from Medjugorje they would not put themselves in a position to be deceived. The fact that they knowingly disobey the bishop results in a severe punishment: the continued self delusion of those who first go to Medjugorje to ‘see for themselves’, and which remains long after the ‘pilgrims’ have returned home.

Beautiful post in Portugese by Helena, who makes more sense than some american posts against Medjugorje. She says that satan cannot lead people to pray and confess their sins.  Medjugorje has thousands of confessions going on every day.  I am south american and am shocked by the arrogance and misinformation spread against the events in Medjugorje. There was no prophecy by Our Lady that Germany would be destroyed.  AND the local Bishop there is said to not believe in ANY Marian apparitions, not even Lourdes or Fatima. So follow him at your own risk.
La Paz contigo, Helena

“AND the local Bishop there is said to not believe in ANY Marian apparitions, not even Lourdes or Fatima.” People seem to forget the eighth commandment when they make such false accusations.

The following is taken from the 1987 “Declaration concerning Medjugorje” of Bishop Zanic, which can be found on the web site of the diocese of Mostar
http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?menuID=98

“I turn to you, O Immaculate Virgin and Mother, Mother of God, and Mother of the Church, Mother of the faithful who seek, pray to, and love you. I, your servant, the bishop of Mostar, turn to you, and before the whole world declare my deep and constant faith in all the privileges God bestowed upon you according to which you are the first and most excellent of His creatures. I express my profound and undeserving faith in your intercession before Almighty God for all the needs of your children in this vale of tears.
I declare my profound and constant faith in your love towards us sinners, that love to which you have testified by your apparitions and assistance. I myself have led pilgrimages to Lourdes.”

@Franki - If we are obedient Catholics we do not make statements that anything is authentic without the approval of the Holy See.

@Frankl - I was referring to the current Bishop Ratko Peric (not Zanic)
- quote:
Fr. Chisholm referred to supernatural events at Lourdes and Fatima but Bishop Peric did not accept this and said he did not believe in any apparitions. When pressed on the Lourdes apparitions, he stated, ‘I believe what I am required to believe, that is the dogma of the Immaculate Conception that was issued four years before Bernadette’s alleged apparitions.’”

Helena: It is arrogant to assume the instrumentality of Medjugorje even there actually are any “conversions” occurring. Only God knows if a conversion has actually taken place. Second, if Satan can use Sacred Scripture to lead people out of the Church, Satan can certainly use a phony apparition. Scripture is profoundly more important than all the apparitions combined. If you can not address the obvious phoniness of the seers, who don’t go to confession themselves (Gospa has told them they are without sin) should not the obvious sins of pride inherent in wanting rosaries to gold or for the sun to spin not rationally lead one to question the quality of alleged fruits? Should not all the lies that are being propagandized against the bishops not lead to rational questions about the quality of fruits? Should not the refusal to exercise the moral obligation to ask skeptical questions not lead to rational questions about the authenticity of the spiritual predisposition of those inclined to favor Medjugorje?

senhor Beker
quem é o senhor para me julgar? arrogante! o julgamento pertence a jesus sabe sou uma pessoa sem estudos apenas com 6 classe criada numa família pobre de 13 filhos sei que sou pecadora mas sei que jesus é misericordioso e sempre que lhe pedir perdão com sincero arrependimento e verdadeira vontade de me emendar derramando minhas lagrimal aos pés de Jesus ele vai me envolver de amor já mais jesus me chamaria de arrogante mesmo que o fosse porque ele chamaria me a ser mais humilde, eu sei que a muitos bispos e padres que não tem santidade, mas o meu dever como filha de Deus é rezar e rezar muito por eles como devo rezar pelos pecadores e por mim própria, para que o divino espírito santo me guie.
eu nem conheço o bispo de mostar nem sequer os videntes pessoalmente.
eu descobri medjugorje através da oração a mãe do céu que apareceu no meu pais, e que tantas graças já recebi dela, a senhora mais brilhante que o Sol, eu no meu intimo tive uma espesse de intuição para procurar mais lugares onde nossa senhora tinha aparecido e ao pesquisar no google saltou- me a vista medjugorje de imediato senti uma alegria enorme li e reli toda a historia ouvi testemunhos da vidente Mirjana em italiano que eu percebo bastante rezei muito diante do sacra-rio pedindo luz para não ser enganada por Satanás, durante meio ano sempre pedindo a jesus e a luz para a ver a verdade, em meu intima havia uma força que me chamava para ir lá.
Como vivo na suíça e não sei falar bem o alemão, eu não fui em nenhuma peregrinação, fui sozinha marquei viagem de malpensa para spilt Croácia de la apanhei o bus para medjugoje, humanamente fui sozinha mas sem medo pois tinha jesus e Maria a acompanhar-me, fui no dia 1 de Julho e voltei no 3 de Julho, não fui para um hotel nem pensam, mas paz e alegria me envolveu naquele lugar dormi junto da estátua de Cristo duas noites e 3 dias alimentei-me de fruta pão e agua senti uma força interior como nunca tinha sentido e uma alegria a rezar que antes só nunca tinha sentido no meu intimo. antes de ir falei com o meu confessor que me disse que devia ir e rezar muito para que o espírito santo me eliminasse.
Não foi em meidjugore que se deu a minha conversão mas fortaleceu a minha fé muito.
Mas minha vida mudou radicalmente através da TV canção nova do Brasil e que também esta em portugal. amo a jesus mais que tudo pois ele é sem duvida o meu melhor amigo. e vai ser Deus que vai mostrar ó mundo que medjugore é tão verdadeiro quanto fatima quando os segredos deixar de ser segredos.ai todo mundo vai ver o grande poder de Deus neste mundo tão pecaminosa e tantas desobediências o santo padre,que quando visitou fatima desse a imprensa que a igreja católica estava em crise porque o pecado nascia dentro dela por isso devemos reza muito por toda a igreja por sacerdotes bispos leigos e todos os pecadores, que Deus o ilumine com o espírito de verdade para ser mais humilde para não tratar alguém que nem conhece de arrogante a arrogância vem do espírito maligno mas esse nossa senhora defende-me sempre dele porque me consagro sempre a ela, eu posso cair mas logo me levanto e sou perdoada, antas da ninha conversão tinha medo de tudo hoje não tenho medo de nada só de ofender jesus que esta tão ofendido.
Que Deus o abençoe e o ilumine, vou rezar por si.

If you don’t have enough respect for the Mother of God to cease supporting this idiotic phony apparition, them perhaps you can muster sufficient honorability to keep your comments in English on an English speaking forum.

Our Lady at Fatima said that “Portugal would preserve the catholic faith”...
Helena Silvestre is proof of this, and she can post her comments in whatever language she pleases, portuguese is beautiful ! The latest news today about Medjugorje is that the commission headed by Cardinal Ruini will issue a positive report to the Vatican next year. Just wait and see… Peace of Christ reign in your hearts.

Yours is not an accurate quote of Our Lady of Fatima. And the faithlessness of anyone supporting the ongoing mockery of the Mother of God at Medjugorje is not an example of “preserving the faith.”

senhor Beker. não humilhe quem nunca teve oportunidade deter escola em Inglês
se sei o que escreve é traduzido no google sou pobre mãe de família e tenho muito amor a mãe de Deus, porque foi ela que me deu a conhecer jesus, no meu interior amo muito a Deus tenho una doença incontrariável é jesus e sua mãe que me da força na hora do sofrimento sei que se jesus quisesse curava-me. mas a minha doença ela é mais valiosa para mim duque a minha cura para a minha salvação e da minha família e pecadores,sou frágil por isso tenho que me sustentar na protecção de jesus e sua mãe porque sei que por mim própria nada valho. o único medo que tenho e de pecar o mínimo que seja, mas se estiver errada sou humilde para pedir perdão a Deus e a mãe que tanto consola as minas dores e as minhas lágrimas é no meio da dor que eu encontro Maria e jesus no meu intimo ajudando a suportar aquilo que antes da minha conversão me levava o desespero não sou rica não tenho estudos mas conheço muito bem o amor de Deus porque jesus e Maria é que são os meus mestres eu posso estar errada mas você também, pode estar. eu sinto que são verdadeiras não pelo que diz os outros, nas sim pelo que sinto no meu interior a traves de jesus e Maria eles é que são os meus mestres num mundo onde se vive como se Deus não existisse eu vivo rodiada de pessoas com a fé morta que vive só para o mundo a minha pro-pia família, por isso a nesse-cidade de oferecer a minha doença a Deus para salvação dos pecadores pela remição dos meus pecados.
A minha sabedoria não e minha mas do espírito santo que avita em mim.
Que Deus nos abençoe a todos e nos conduza a vida eterna que é o meu maior motivo poder merecer a herança e o lugar que jesus foi preparar para mim vivo ansiosa por esse momento mas respeitando a vontade de Deus cada dia e uma luta para la chegar carregando a minha cruz com amor e alegria mesmo no meu da dor. um santo natal para todos.

Any attempt at appealing to some of you for obedience continues to be overlooked. (Apologies to you Franki for misreading your post.) Pride is not a virtue. It is a sin and anyone who continually professes that Medjugorje is authentic commits the sin of pride. Only the Holy See can make that declaration. Why is that so difficult for some of you to understand and accept?

@ Julie-
I agree with you, that the Holy See has the final word on Medj.- and I will abide with whatever is the final decision. I hope you will too…
Read a Pope’s advice on a private revelation which is still being examined.

Pope Urban VIII - Sanctissimus Dominus Noster (March 14, 1625)
“In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true.”

The claim has been made that Bishop Peric does not believe in Lourdes or Fatima. That claim is based on hearsay i.e. on what Fr Chisolm said that Bishop Peric said to him. It should be noted that Fr Chisolm accompanies pilgrimages to Medjugorje as a chaplain. In doing this he disobeys the directives of the Bishop of Mostar and obviously has his own personal interest at stake in trying to justify his own disobedience. Point to a statement from Bishop Peric on the bishop’s website that would confirm he said what Fr Chisolm claims he said. You won’t find one. The hearsay is circulated ad nausem on Medjugorje websites, and lacks all credibility.  Well let’s assume that Bishop Peric made such a statement since the Medjugorites say that he did. That does not give them the right to disobey his authority and conduct pilgrimages to Medjugorje that attribute a supernatural character (i.e of God) to the ‘apparitions’. Furthermore it does not prove that he is wrong in his judgement about the Medjugorje ‘apparitions’. Bringing Lourdes or Fatima into the discussion and using those authentic apparitions to cloud the issue as a basis for claiming that Bishop Peric is therefore wrong about Medjugorje is completely irrelevant. His judgement about Medjugorje is based on what happened at Medjugorje, and not on what happened at Lourdes or Fatima. Bishop’s Peric and Zanic examined the Medjugorje ‘seers’ (not St Bernadette, Lucia, Bl Jacinta or Bl Francisco), and proved them to be liars and self contradicting.  People could easily discover this, and many other things besides, by studying the large volume of documentation available on the website of the bishop of Mostar, but love of truth is something Medjugorje promoters, like the ‘visionaries’ they emulate, do not have. Our Lord tells us in Scripture that Satan is the father of lies and a murderer from the beginning. Follow Medjugorje and its burgeoning cargo of lies at your own peril.

Here is a recent interview to Fr. Gabriele Amorth, Rome’s chief exorcist for many years, a priest who can discern between good and evil spirits…

Throughout the years, Fr. Amorth has embraced Medjugorje. He has called the place, “a great fortress against Satan.” The following is a September, 2011 interview on Radio Maria with Fr. Gabriele Amorth. Fr. Amorth was speaking before the backdrop of the Virgin Mary’s message of August 25, 2011.

“How bitter, how bitter was the last message of Our Lady of Medjugorje on August 25: ‘Many have responded, but there is an enormous number of those who do not want to hear or accept my call,’” Fr. Gabriele Amorth first commented:

“Now look here; it is very sour, this balance. After more than thirty years! More than thirty years! Now if it is the pagans who don’t listen to Our Lady’s words, then that I can understand. But be you a Christian, it is not forgivable. Be you a Christian!”

“Even priests and bishops don’t even want to hear about it. It is not that they went there and then made their decision fairly, after seeing things for themselves. No! They don’t even want to hear it being spoken about!”

“The Gospel is so clear. It tells us how to discern! By the fruits you will know the tree! It has been thirty years that Medjugorje has given us fruits that are ultimately exquisite! Confession, conversion, vocations, graces of every kind! For more than thirty years!” the exorcist reminded on Radio Maria.

“In the Old Testament, God sent prophets to warn of the betrayals of the Jewish people. Now, here to warn of the betrayal of the Christian people, also the priests, God sends us His Mother! It has been thirty years! Is it possible that people still do not hear? And as for those people who believe themselves to be intelligent by saying they’ll wait until the Church approves? They are fools!” said Fr. Gabriel Amorth.

Fr. Amorth may well have embraced Medjugorje but the Holy See has not.

Rather than to perpetuate the all talk of apparitions which only distract people away from Christ (and transfer the glory due Him to Mary), the Vatican should be underscoring the direct words of Jesus in John 14:6—“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”  Even Mary would be displeased.  She prefers the focus be on Christ rather than on her.

@Julie,
Pope John Paul did embrace Medjugore,- although an formal ruling may not come until the apparitions have ended.

@Lee - The only valid response comes from the Holy See and not anyone’s individual opinion; even if it is a Pope’s.

@Casting Crowns - I agree with you. This preoccupation with apparitions is a distraction. Jesus Christ should always be our focus. Medjugorje has taken on a “life of its own” and it is not in proportion with what our real focus should be and that is The Blessed Trinity.

Merry Christmas , Julie and Helena, I have said enough.
Peace of Christ to all !

Understanding Medjugorje, Heavenly Visions Or Religious Illusion? Donal Anthony Foley, Theotokos Books, Nottingham reveals that from the messages of 1984 to 2009 the alleged apparition never mentioned abortion, contraception, pornography or homosexuality. I know people who organise pilgrimages to Medjugorje who are cohabiting and in gay relationships.  Where are the apparition’s comments on same-sex marriage?  The apparition only tells society what its want to hear.  It is not the mother of Christ.  The real Virgin would warn us about sin as she loves us so much.

Patrick-  In none of the approved apparitions of Our Lady, has she ever mentioned abortion , contraception or pornography specifically, and these sins have been around for many centuries. So therefore your argument (or Foley’s) has no validity whatsoever.
Peace on earth.

Every parish I’ve lived in , and there have been a few, have had the spiritual temperature raised a few degrees by usually only two or three sincere and devout individuals. These are being laughed at, openly ridiculed and persecuted,for want of a better word, by the church hierarchy and by parishioners as we speak, but persevere. These characters all seem to have been “activated” either in Medjugorje or by Padre Pio. This is my observation during the last ten years. Not only in Ireland but in Holland, Belgium and Germany too.

Our Lord was clear, “It is an evil generation that looks for a sign.”

Albert, those who support phony apparitions are the ones doing the persecuting, and their targets are the Church itself, and with grotesque shamelessness, the Mother of God.

Joseph, do not profess Peace on Earth if you are going to insult the intelligence of the Mother of God. After thousands and thousands of “appearances,” where she makes herself subordinate to the capricious moods of the seers, specificity about particulars of modern corruptions whould be self-evident in her concerns, not opinions on the strength or weaknesses of particular soccer teams.

Medjugorje fanaticism is a persecution of the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

Lee, well you slander Blessed John Paul as having “embraced” Medjugorje, so I would not trust your source on Fr. Amorth, but if your quote is accurate than Fr. Amorth would obviously be a profound fool who would need to go to confession himself.

Peace on earth, to people of good will.
-reads one translation of scripture…

God bless each an every one of you for your intense and heated interest in the Medjugorje phenomenon—whether you are pro or con.  Of course, none of what any of us says is going to make one iota of difference since God is always in charge. And the bottom line of all of this is the basic message that the Virgin Mary always brings us: “Pray hard, convert, love, respect. Go to my Son and do whatever He tells you.” And what He tells us in these unprecedented trying times is this: “I am your Peace. Live the Commandments.”

Holiness or conversion cannot be judged by examine the external behavior of a person while that person is alive, for any good person can turn evil at the last minute, or an evil person can turn good at the last minute.  Only God can be a sole judge who can see the depth of once heart.  It would be a big flaw to use conversion claims as foundations for examining the authenticity of an apparition.  Miracles are the only sure way to judge if an apparition is from God.  That is why sainthood is only examined after one dies.  It takes proof of miracle to petition to blessed and then to sainthood.  As far as I know, there are strange things happen at Medjugorje like some claim to see the sun danced and many conversion claims, but not even one miracle is found there.  I came to visit Medjugoje once to stop over on the way to visit the Black Madona in Poland.  I found nothing special about that place.  That is my personal opinion.  Mary appeared only a few times in Lourdes, France to introduce herself as “I AM THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION”.  In Fatima, Portugal in 1917, Mary taught the three children to pray the HOLY ROSARY and invited everyone to pray the Rosary.  I have no idea what is unique about the apparition at Medjugorje.  Her message is nothing new but only repetition over and over again.  What is so special about the messages from 1981 till now except too much repetition, and it is not like Mary, for I know my Mother from the Bible when Mary said it is important.  She always pray and said only when necessary.  I really doubt that she changes her personality to become talkative over nite.  Jesus warned in the Bible that there will be many false prophets to deceive many at the end time.  The Church is very careful about any claim of apparition.  Do not rush them.  Let them do their job.

@Anthony Nguyen:  [“Miracles are the only sure way to judge if an apparition is from God.”]  Anthony, Satan also has supernatural power thus he too, can perform miracles.  How come Mary only appears to Catholics?  If Christ is not the sole object of honor, worship and glory, you are being deceived.

@Casting Crowns - Mary does not appear JUST to Catholics. She appears for all of humanity. You are misunderstanding Catholic teaching. Catholics DO NOT WORSHIP Mary. We honor her as the Mother of God. Worship is reserved totally for God. Any Catholic who bases his or her faith on apparitions is in error. Apparitions are not part of the Deposit of Faith. We can believe in them or not believe in them. This does not enhance or detract in any way from our Christianity. Unfortunately there are Catholics who give the impression that apparitions are a deposit of faith. We need to put things into their proper perspective. God is first in all things. We worship and adore God. Mary, by her own humility would never, ever, wish to be adored. This is false teaching. We as Catholics need to begin with ourselves to understand the proper order of things so that we do not give “exaggerated” attention to the Blessed Mother. She is always subservient to her Son and her mission is to lead us to her Son and nothing more.

Regarding the Post by Angelo on Sunday, Dec 9, 2012 5:14 PM (EDT)— WOW!

This is the single most profoundly wise comment on this blog that I just found.  Thank you, Angelo.  Are you the same Angelo I know?  If so, good comment!

I pray that all our church leaders, including the Vatican men, would just preach and teach the entirety of the New Testament, most especially, the truths written about in Paul’s letters.

Paul wrote 13 letters.  While we hear bits and pieces of what Paul wrote on Sundays, our clergymen NEVER do verse-by-verse expository preaching of what Paul wrote, and in context.  Why?

Let’s all of us focus on what we KNOW to be TRUE and from God.  His word.

The post by Angelo is mistaken. The Pope stated that pilgrimages are allowed to Medjugorje, but not as if it already were a Church approved apparition site.
The TRUE test of this case will be if the ten secrets or prophecies become true.
Each one will be announced 3 days in advance by the Franciscan priest that has been chosen by Mirjana. This priest is 66 years old now, and the events should unfold during his lifetime. It will be very easy to ascertain if the predictions become true or not.

To Lionel, Dec 10, 9:39 A.M. Although I agree with your implicit observation on the falseness of Medjugorje, your argument manages to insult the church in another sort of way. It has never been Catholic dogma that most people do not go to heaven, nor has it ever interpreted Our Lord’s metaphor of the broad and narrow road as necessarily commenting on ultimate salvation, rather on our human propensities for weakness in this life. You seek to sustain your point with leaps of logic. Vatican II is clear in sustaining the idea of baptism by desire, which does not contradict ecclesiam nulla salus because ecclesiam nulla salus never has been dogmatic. Secondly there is no logic to your point that because some priests in Rome gave a frivolous observation about not knowing any cases of baptism by desire, their opinion is somehow synonymous with and binding to Vatican II. A priest can never judge the event of baptism by desire because a priest cannot judge what is only a matter for God’s judgment in the first place. Priests who claim they can judge the authenticity of any conversion are committing blasphemy. And Vatican II was completely orthodox. I’m not saying you, but those who deny the authenticity of Vatican II are the real heretics, Medjugorjians included.

@Edward J Baker:  [“It has never been Catholic dogma that most people do not go to heaven”]  Why not?  The gospel teaches most people are indeed on the broad road which “leads to destruction.”  For Catholic dogma to fail to teach this is false teaching.  Jesus said “Enter the narrow gate.”  Jesus also said “And few there are that find it.”  If you teach most people ARE going to Heaven, you are teaching a compromised gospel —which is false by any standard.

Fr. Gabriel Amorth, Exorcist in Rome

“Medjugorje is a fortress against Satan. Satan hates Medjugorje because it is a place of conversion, of prayer, of transformation of life…I always understood Medjugorje as a continuation of Fatima. According to Our Lady’s words in Fatima, if we had prayed and fasted, there would not have been World War II. We have not listened to her and therefore there was a war. Also here in Medjugorje, Our Lady often calls to prayer for peace. In her apparitions, Our Lady always presents herself under another name to show the goal of her apparitions. At Lourdes, she presented herself as the Immaculate Conception, in Fatima as the Queen of the Holy Rosary. Here in Medjugorje, Our Lady presented herself as the Queen of Peace. We all remember the (her) words “Mir, Mir, Mir” (peace, peace, peace) that were written in the sky at the very beginning of the apparitions. We see clearly that humanity is running the risk of war, and Our Lady insists on prayer and on Christian life to attain peace.”

@Lee - It has not been substantiated by the Vatican that our Blessed Mother is speaking to us in Medjugorje regardless of Fr. Amorth’s statements. Fr. Amorth does not speak for the Church.

I agree with you Julie, this is still an open case. And it will remain undecided by the Vatican until the alleged apparitions cease.  In the mean while it helps to pray and fast.  But how difficult it is to fast.

This pseudo-marian site is total blashphemy not only to Our Lady, but to the Catholic faith and all things Holy in Heaven.  In 1987, I almost made it to this site while riding on a bus from Zagreb after flying from the USA.  I was asleep on the bus and was awaken by a young female voice crying telling my spirit that the site was a hoax.  I immediately got off the bus on the side of the street on the mountain side with my luggage, and waited for another bus to take me back to Zagreb.  The masses of people that pilgrimage to this location are duped thinking Our Lady provides special messages to these reprobate seers.  Please pray for the seers to repent immediately—their sins merit the deepest part of hell.  Please pray for the Holy Father to end this scandalous nonsense. And don’t think for a second that this scandal will end if the Pope takes a middle ground in hopes that no one will be offended—it will continue to divide and put Catholics in spiritual distress.  A main objective for the Church is to purge sin now, and prevent its spread.  “Fraud is fraud always, as sin is sin always.” + Amen.

To Casting Crowns 1/6 : when did I say that most people are going to heaven? I neither said or implied any such thing. I said that no salvation outside the Catholic Church is not and never has been Catholic dogma. Got it? Second, Jesus did not say the road to destruction meant damnation. If you are going to contend that Jesus never spoke metaphorically, then you insult Jesus. Paradox and metaphor were almost constant in His words. Truth always cuts across the grain of human vanity and is naturally paradoxical. The fact is that almost all of us are on the broad road of destruction. We are all sinners. Even after “conversion.” We will continue to be sinners until we die. Have you ever met anyone in your entire life with no self-destructive casts of mind and behavior? Neither have I.

Outside of those relative few the Church has specifically identified, no one knows who or how many are in heaven or who or how many are in hell. No can even judge the authenticity of a “conversion,” despite what Medjugorian heretics claim.  The Christian virtue is hope, not certitude. Certitude is for the prideful. Look how many Luther (and Satan) led out of the church with his junk theology of certitude, inaccurately based on Scripture. And, back to the topic of Medjugorje, if Satan can use Scripture to lead people out of the Church, then Satan can use superficial Marian devotion to lead people out of the Church. One of the occasions when Our Lord was bluntly non-metaphorical was when He said It is an evil generation that looks for a sign.

@Edward J Baker:  Sunday, January 6, 3:34pm EST, you said:  “It has never been Catholic dogma that most people do not go to heaven . . .”  By implication you were advancing the opposite that most people DO go to Heaven.  However, please accept my apology for misunderstanding your comment.  I will accept your later post since this is not what you truly meant.  No problem.  I will, though, mention I had an RCIA nun who during one evening session announce to all the new catechumens “everyone” is, in fact, going to Heaven.  That, of course, is false teaching.
.
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Interesting though you mention Jesus speaking in metaphors.  I agree.  Indeed He did—eg “I am the door,”  “I am the gate”  “I am the good shepherd”  “I am the living water come down from Heaven” to name a few.  On the other hand, you will create all sorts of cardiac arrest with people in the church if you attribute metaphorically Jesus saying “I am the bread of life” when referring to the Eucharist.  If one does, you are then denying the Real Presence to those who believe the bread is not just bread, but Christ Himself.  That Jesus is speaking of Himself as “bread” He is speaking of Himself (Christ) as spiritual food and drink.  The exercise of taking communion is just . . . exercise absent of the Holy Spirit in one’s life.

Attention Edward C.Baker

Here is one of three defined dogmas on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”-, Wikipedia, extra ecclesiam nulla salus

Here is Vatican Council II with the same message.

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church’s preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself “by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7

Here is the Catechism of the Catholic Church with the same message.(Note: ‘Though all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his body’ this is not a contradiction of Ad Gentes7 or Cantate Domino, Council of Florence)

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

This has been the teaching of the Church for centuries .Most people in the world do not have Catholic Faith and the baptism of water at time of death.

Casting Crowns: Not true. Your sense of logic is off the wall. The negation of a proposition never implies a conta positive. Despite the misleading and incomplete quoting by Lionel (who fails to note before and after remarks in what he quotes that point out salvation through Christ does not necessarily imply a verbalization or outward expression of such inner assent) the Church does not take the position, nor has it ever taken the position that most people do not go to heaven. Neither does the Church take the position, nor has it ever taken the position most people do go to heaven. The Catholic religion is not Protestantism. It has no position on the individual status of individual souls, let alone the whole of humanity, unlike Protestant or Islamic idiocy, or unlike Medjugorian idiocy for that matter. Salvation is a matter for God to judge. It represents the perfection of both heresy and blasphemy to make assumptions on matters that are exclusively God’s business.

I would like to keep this civil, but your non sequitur makes it impossible. It is an indisputable fact that Jesus used metaphor frequently, including the reference to the narrow road and the road that leads to destruction. What these words of Our Lord mean is the rarity of holiness, a lacking clearly reflected through abusing these words to commit the sin of presumption. Finally, anyone who assumes that to recognize metaphor as metaphor necessarily creates a disposition that would undermine recognition of the absolute mystery of the Eucharist (which also incorporates imagery) slaps Jesus in the face with yet another occasion of presumption.

Casting Crowns: Not true. Your sense of logic is wrong. The negation of a proposition never implies a conta positive. Despite the misleading and incomplete quoting by Lionel (who fails to note before and after remarks in what he quotes that point out salvation through Christ does not necessarily imply a verbalization or outward expression of such inner assent) the Church does not take the position, nor has it ever taken the position that most people do not go to heaven. Neither does the Church take the position, nor has it ever taken the position most people do go to heaven. The Catholic religion is not Protestantism. It has no position on the individual status of individual souls, let alone the whole of humanity, unlike Protestant idiocy, or unlike Medjugorian idiocy for that matter. Salvation is a matter for God to judge. It represents the perfection of both heresy and blasphemy to make assumptions on matters that are exclusively God’s business.

I would like to keep this civil, but your non sequitur foolishness makes it impossible. It is an indisputable fact that Jesus used metaphor frequently, including the reference to the narrow road and the road that leads to destruction. What these words of Our Lord mean is the rarity of holiness, a lacking clearly reflected through abusing these words to commit the sin of presumption. Finally, anyone who assumes that to recognize metaphor as metaphor necessarily creates a disposition that would undermine recognition of the absolute mystery of the Eucharist slaps Jesus in the face with yet another occasion of presumption.

A married couple, good friends of my wife and I went on a parish sponsored pilgrimage to Medjugorge. They were very exicted about this pilgrimage. But when they returned they were a bit confused. They found alot of good tings about the place but there were some parts that they did not know what to make of. They found it strange that if a group of visitors stayed at the home of one of the seers they were treated to their own apparition. In the apparition that they were treated to, Our Lady allegedly said for all to pray “all 15 decades of the Rosary daily”. What confused them is the fact that there are now 20 decades of the Holy Rosary. So why would our Lady say to pray “all 15 decades”? Our Lady has always accepted all changes to the Rosary which the Church officialy makes. When Our Lady first gave this prayer to St. Dominic it consisted of 150 Hail Mary’s. The Church later added the Holy Name of Jesus to the Hail Mary, and later added the second half of the Hail Mary, separerated the Hail Mary’s into groups of ten and added Mysteries to meditate upon, added the Our Father to each decade along with the Glory Be. Approved the use of beads as Our Lady did not give beads to St. Dominic. For those who know their Catholic Faith and hold to it, Medjugorge is confusing.

Angelo - Your posts sums it all up.  Raises a red flag!  There is nothing confusing about your friend’s experience.  They’re merely showing their discernment, and it’s GREAT!!!!!!!  It’s about time we all THINK.  Thanks for sharing this with us.

Nothing beats first hand experience from people that are objective, and that have no agenda other than to share what happened.  Wow.  I wonder how many other people have had the same experience, but are reluctant to SPEAK UP about it, for fear of looking different.

Angelo - I don’t see anything confusing about the Rosary decades, because the Pope added the luminous mysteries later in his pontificate. This is just another weak excuse to oppose these apparitions.
Although I do respect the attitude of Patrick Madrid who does not now believe in the Medjugorje seers. He says that he will joyfully accept whatever final ruling the Vatican makes and will change his mind if the verdict is positive.  Patrick never refers to those who believe in the apparitions as fools or heretics as some have done on this forum. And Madrid does acknowledge that Pope John Paul II did personally believe in the Medjugorje apparitions, but thinks that JPII could have been mistaken.  This respectful attitude should be imitated by those with anger against the “seers”.  Prayer and FASTING takes anger away and brings inner peace to the soul.

“What good is your fast, if on that day you strike with wicked claw?” That sadly is what has happened. There are many good Catholics who believe in the apparitions of Medjugorge. When someone in the Hierarchy of the Church or a layperson speak of their well founded doubts, then they are struck with wicked claw. Bl. John Paul ll simply stated that if Our Lady were truly appearing in Medjugorge he would be the first to go there. But from this, many tales were invented, the Holy Father Bl. John Paul ll is the one who forbade priests to lead pilgrimages there and priests defied him. One of the major fruits of these apparitions has been disobedience. When the Church judges apparitions, one of the major reasons to not give it “worthy of credence” is acts of disobedience from the seers and the faithful. Disobedience to Church authority is the major mark of these apparitions. Our friends went to Medjugorge during the Pontificate of this Pope, Pope Benedict XVl, so the Luminous Mysteries were already well in place. Our parish priest weekly cited new messages from Medjugorge weekly, until he sounded like he himself no longer believed, its been 2 years since he spoke of Medjugorge. That seems like a testimony in itself. Don’t you agree?

Casting Crowns: Not true. Your sense of logic is wrong. The negation of a proposition never implies a conta positive. Despite the misleading and incomplete quoting by Lionel (who fails to note before and after remarks in what he quotes that point out salvation through Christ does not necessarily imply a verbalization or outward expression of such inner assent) the Church does not take the position, nor has it ever taken the position that most people do not go to heaven. Neither does the Church take the position, nor has it ever taken the position most people do go to heaven. The Catholic religion is not Protestantism. It has no position on the individual status of individual souls, let alone the whole of humanity, unlike Protestant idiocy, or unlike Medjugorian idiocy for that matter. Salvation is a matter for God to judge. It represents the perfection of both heresy and blasphemy to make assumptions on matters that are exclusively God’s business.

I would like to keep this civil, but your non sequitur foolishness makes it impossible. It is an indisputable fact that Jesus used metaphor frequently, including the reference to the narrow road and the road that leads to destruction. What these words of Our Lord mean is the rarity of holiness, a lacking clearly reflected through abusing these words to commit the sin of presumption. Finally, anyone who assumes that to recognize metaphor as metaphor necessarily creates a disposition that would undermine recognition of the absolute mystery of the Eucharist slaps Jesus in the face with yet another occasion of presumption.

Terah James and Lee, I am unable to respond appropriatly. Someone flagged me as a potential spammer, so my responses have not been going through.

With our friends experience I observe several problems. Our Lady allegdedly spoke about praying the 15 Decades of the Rosary, there are 20. Our friends went during this Pontificate of Pope Benedict XVl so the 20 decades were set in stone. The idea if one stays at the home of one of the seers, for just a donation, and made to feel guilty when the donation is requested sounds like simony. The extra treat that if one stays at the home of a alledged seer, the group being treated to their own personal apparition of Our Lady does’nt sound right. The church when judging apparitions, one of the criteria is observing obedience or disobedience to the Church. At Medjugorge disobedience to Church authority is one of its hallmarks. Disobedience to Church authority comes from the evil one. There are many other negative points to ponder, but this is enough for me. Lee I do not have any anger a towards the seers, but if this is in fact falsehood I don have any respect for it. As for fasting scripture says, “What good are your fasts if on that day you strike with wicked claw”, just because someone disagrees with you. Should the Church approve of Medjugorge then that prohibits me from speaking against it, but does not mean that I must accept it. And accept the allegded apparitions in Medjugorge, I won’t. I accept all approved apparitions of the Church, and those are enough to keep my spiritual life in the right direction.

Sorry that happened Angelo -  I meant that the luminous mysteries were added several years after JPII became pope, and they are indeed helpful to pray.

Angelo: sometimes I, too, get potential spam messages, and what I post must go through an approval process first.  It may be a quirk on the NC Register site, having nothing at all to do with what you or I write, for that matter.  A lot of other people wrote they get spam messages too.

If you’re the same “Angelo” I’ve chatted with on other blogs, nothing you have ever written would require prior approval.  I think our comments add to the discussion.  Of course, what we write is polite and constructive, as are almost all the non-Catholic Christian people that I see contribute.
Almost all of them are sincere, and merely trying to offer another perspective.

There are some whose intention it is to destroy & mock the rest of us.  But frankly, even with people like that, we have two options: 1) respond to them with charity, honing our skills by responding or 2) ignore their comments & respond only to those people that are truly interested in conversation, dialog, in learning & sharing with others what they know.

I’ve noticed sometimes a very long post will be checked as spam.  Perhaps NC Register may think it’s an advertisement?  That’s reasonable and even appreciated!  But short & average sized posts normally go through fine.

Angelo - I’m very grateful for your comments on this blog.  Most certainly, you’ve given us another perspective, and one that is valid. Thank you! 

Angelo - my last comment was flagged as potential spam.  This is comical.

Trying again—-

Angelo: sometimes I, too, get potential spam messages, and what I post must go through an approval process first.  It may be a quirk on the NC Register site, having nothing at all to do with what you or I write, for that matter.  A lot of other people wrote they get spam messages too.

If you’re the same “Angelo” I’ve chatted with on other blogs, nothing you have ever written would require prior approval.  I think our comments add to the discussion.  Of course, what we write is polite and constructive, as are almost all the non-Catholic Christian people that I see contribute.
Almost all of them are sincere, and merely trying to offer another perspective.

There are some whose intention it is to destroy & mock the rest of us.  But frankly, even with people like that, we have two options: 1) respond to them with charity, honing our skills by responding or 2) ignore their comments & respond only to those people that are truly interested in conversation, dialog, in learning & sharing with others what they know.

I’ve noticed sometimes a very long post will be checked as spam.  Perhaps NC Register may think it’s an advertisement?  That’s reasonable and even appreciated!  But short & average sized posts normally go through fine.

Angelo - I’m very grateful for your comments on this blog.  Most certainly, you’ve given us another perspective, and one that is valid. Thank you! 

3rd time, a charm? We’ll see…I edited this one:

Sometimes I, too, get potential “S” messages, and my post must go through an approval process first.  It may be a quirk on the Register site, having nothing at all to do with what you or I write.  A lot of other people wrote they get that message too. I noticed long posts are checked first. But short & average sized posts normally go through fine.

Angelo - I’m grateful for your comments on this blog.  Most certainly, you’ve given us another perspective, one that is valid.   

3rd time - success!  Comment went right in, no waiting.  The other two times I tried to say the same thing, comment had to go through the NCR filter, where others must post it.  If it’s repetitive, you’ll know why.
Good to know.

To Casting Crowns 1/10: Not true. Your sense of logic is wrong. The negation of a proposition never implies a conta positive. Despite the misleading and incomplete quoting by Lionel (who fails to note before and after remarks in what he quotes that point out salvation through Christ does not necessarily imply a verbalization or outward expression of such inner assent) the Church does not take the position, nor has it ever taken the position that most people do not go to heaven. Neither does the Church take the position, nor has it ever taken the position most people do go to heaven. The Catholic religion is not Protestantism. It has no position on the individual status of individual souls, let alone the whole of humanity, unlike Protestant idiocy, or unlike Medjugorian idiocy for that matter. Salvation is a matter for God to judge. It represents the perfection of both heresy and blasphemy to make assumptions on matters that are exclusively God’s business.

I would like to keep this civil, but your non sequitur foolishness makes it impossible. It is an indisputable fact that Jesus used metaphor frequently, including the reference to the narrow road and the road that leads to destruction. What these words of Our Lord mean is the rarity of holiness, a lacking clearly reflected through abusing these words to commit the sin of presumption. Finally, anyone who assumes that to recognize metaphor as metaphor necessarily creates a disposition that would undermine recognition of the absolute mystery of the Eucharist slaps Jesus in the face with yet another occasion of presumption.

Casting Crowns 1/10: Not true. Your sense of logic is wrong. The negation of a proposition never implies a conta positive. Despite the misleading and incomplete quoting by Lionel (who fails to note before and after remarks in what he quotes that point out salvation through Christ does not necessarily imply a verbalization or outward expression of such inner assent) the Church does not take the position, nor has it ever taken the position that most people do not go to heaven. Neither does the Church take the position, nor has it ever taken the position most people do go to heaven. The Catholic religion is not Protestantism. It has no position on the individual status of individual souls, let alone the whole of humanity, unlike Protestant idiocy, or unlike Medjugorian idiocy for that matter. Salvation is a matter for God to judge. It represents the perfection of both heresy and blasphemy to make assumptions on matters that are exclusively God’s business.

I would like to keep this civil, but your non sequitur foolishness makes it impossible. It is an indisputable fact that Jesus used metaphor frequently, including the reference to the narrow road and the road that leads to destruction. What these words of Our Lord mean is the rarity of holiness, a lacking clearly reflected through abusing these words to commit the sin of presumption. Finally, anyone who assumes that to recognize metaphor as metaphor necessarily creates a disposition that would undermine recognition of the absolute mystery of the Eucharist slaps Jesus in the face with yet another occasion of presumption.

@Edward J Baker:  [“unlike Protestant or Islamic idiocy”].  Well now, this is certainly a first.  Never before have we seen someone Catholic lump Protestants with Islamics.  And for you to refer to Protestant understanding as “idiocy”—well, even the Vatican refers to Protestants as “Our separated bretheren who are not in ‘full’ communion with the church.”  But at least everyone now knows where you’re coming from, Edward.  And thank you for your “Christian ?” kindness.  Are you really Catholic or merely a pretender?

Edward J. Baker wrote, “The Christian virtue is hope, not certitude. Certitude is for the prideful.”

But St. Paul wrote we can KNOW things about our faith.  “Hope” is “knowing”, in God’s economy, not a wish based on meager evidence.

I do agree with you, though, when you wrote, “One of the occasions when Our Lord was bluntly non-metaphorical was when He said it is an evil generation that looks for a sign.” 

The last sign given to us all was the Sign of Jonah: Jesus’ resurrection.
Angelo - we NEED to question our church.  All too often, our church is like the children’s storybook: “The Emperor wore no clothes” where everyone is afraid or reluctant to speak up, with the obvious, not wanting to appear different.

Even during the Reformation, our church recognized a need for SOME reform.  Imagine if Martin Luther went along with the flow (of selling indulgences, etc.) just to not rock the boat.  Would that honor God?

Well we can expect a forum welcoming Medjugorian insults to the Mother of God to be rife with misunderstanding of the Catholic religion.
Casting Clowns: Are you a pretender? Luther was a profound fool, and so are Protestants who repeat his heretical notion of being able to judge their own salvation. Catholics who think like Protestants (well, like Medjugorians for example) share the same foolishness. Anyone who commits this “understanding” (and sin of presumption) is obviously guilty of a lot worse than idiocy.
Terah: You are wrong about the cardinal virtue of hope. We do not “know” the mind of God except to the degree we commit our lives to truth, which is synonymous with the mind of God (which is what Scripture means by “the word.”) Our sins, which we never fully outgrow in this world, blinds us to always living truth. The judgment of souls is exclusively God’s business. This is real Catholic dogma, not like so many of the falsehoods that have been peddled in this forum as dogma. It is insulting to real Catholic dogma to be so ignorant of the virtue of hope (of which billions of words have been written by numerous saints) as to trivialize it as merely “a wish.” Faith in God is neither “a wish” or “meager evidence.”
Protestants who think like Catholics (like C.S. Lewis and numerous others) always knew that certitude is insulting to God. Lewis reflected late in life that he even understood this during his years of youthful atheism.
Returning to the dogmatic point raised by others and subsequently avoided: whatever frivolous non-dogmatic remarks anyone made in the history of the Church, the Catholic Church claims no knowledge of how many go to heaven or whether it is a majority or minority of the human race. It does clearly hold that the salvation event of the death and resurrection of Our Lord is at the center of Catholic witness whether one makes this internal assent, a response to God, consciously through the Sacraments or through baptism by desire. Again, “knowing” salvation is God’s business, or as another Protestant, T.S.Eliot, thinking like a Catholic said, “Ours is but the trying, the rest is not our business.”
It is even quite consistent with real Catholic dogma to exercise the virtue of hope that all might be saved. Purgatory is undoubtedly a big place. I’m HOPEFUL I will not be the only one serving a ten thousand year sentence. Care to join me?

Terah James, I sure have missed this site. I have not been on the computer much due to the chronic illness I spoke of to you before. I was on another site and got thrown out for defending the Church. I found out it was a liberal site that prefered comments attacking the Church, they did’nt take it to well when one defended the truth. Sure hope I get to feeling better as this has been my favorite site. God Bless you Terah!

@Edward J Baker:  [“It is even quite consistent with real Catholic dogma to exercise the virtue of hope that all might be saved.”]  Unfortunately for you, your hope is in vain since your “real” Catholic dogma runs contrary to the gospel.  Jesus taught quite explicity the reality that’s not going to happen.

Angelo - so sorry to hear you are still unwell, and sad that your comments were edited from another site.  You always have excellent contributions, and are very respectful, even upon the occasions when we all disagreed.  I most certainly am GRATEFUL for your thoughts on this blog.  Praying that you will soon get better, and that you’ll continue to write too.  NC Register is among the most balanced publications, in that it does allow many perspectives, as a rule.  Angelo: Cut & Paste Candy made super comments on the NC Reg blog: Thou Shall Not Think, about Canada - you may want to check it out.  For the first time ever, she and I were in 100% agreement!!

To Edward J Baker - what do you think of St. Paul’s 13 New Testament Letters?  Should they be removed from the Bible?  Just curious.

I must say that of all the comments I have read on this forum, the worst one is regarding why Our Lady appears at Medjugorje on a cloud covering her feet (a sinister detail ?). Some have made up the story that it is the devil covering his hoofs with the clouds ! I know this explanation was not stated on this forum, but it seems like he heard this absurd story. I think it is OK not to believe in these apparitions, but to say that it is all the devil’s work is ridiculous.  The devil does not incite people to pray and fast. Recall that in the gospel, Jesus was accused of working miracles through the devil’s power.
HIS answer was a warning about “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”.

Clearly on a site with Medjugorians commenting, there will be a lot of Catholic anti-Catholic bigots commenting.  Gospa herself is an anti-Catholic bigot.  Terah: Since you clearly understand nothing about Paul, who talked a great deal about the cardinal virtue of hope, why would you ask such a question? Do you think Paul’s letters should be removed? That, of course, would give you an excuse not to read them.

And Lee, ever hear of the fallacy of the undistributed middle? It’s when you fail to contrast that which you seek to compare. Don’t insult Jesus by comparing a phony apparition to His work on earth.

Event at Padre Pio’s home town:
JAN 16 (Medjugorje Today) - The shrine of Saint Padre Pio will host Medjugorje visionary Mirjana Dragicevic-Soldo on February 24. Mirjana will be one of nine speakers for an all-day event at San Giovanni Rotondo where Saint Pio lived and preached for most of his time as a priest. 
Saint Pio had the gift of prophecy, and his 1968 statement to Bosnian pilgrims, “The Madonna will soon visit your country”, has been tied to Medjugorje.

Edward - my most favorite of the New Testament writers is Paul.  I love his letters, all 13 of them.  What concerns me is the doctrines about which Paul wrote is never preached on Sundays at Mass (in its fullness) or taught to us at any other time, as a collective body in Church.  For Paul, “hope” was a certainty; he would even use the phrase, “For I am convinced…” about his hope being sure because of his faith and trust in God, not in himself.

For that matter, all the other New Testament writers (and the author of Hebrews, that may or may not have been Paul) were on the same page about every bit of doctrine in the Deposit of Faith, but those too, are NOT PREACHED or taught to us. What we do get is feel-good 7 minute homilies, that are forgotten by many, before Mass is over.  Teaching and growth in our faith stopped, when most lay people were in the 3rd grade, OR we have to proactively teach ourselves (by reading God’s word).

Only God’s word is the Gold Standard of Measure, and everything else must be weighed against it, including Padre Pio’s ‘insight’ & ‘seers’ messages.
God the Father & the Holy Spirit is Faithful & True, leading us to Jesus.

Lee, When did St. Padre Pio say that our Lady would visit Bosnia? As for one of the alledged seers at the Shrine of St. Padre Pio, I find that disturbing. The reason is because some of the seers have been hosted in my area and they get paid very well for it. That is another criteria used by Rome in judging apparitions. The sin of simony. Claiming to have had apparitions and making money from it. That is a definite negative from the Church. In the alledged apparitions of Medjugorge disobedience to the Church and Money making seem to be overwhelming. Rome has barred the alledged seers from the Parish Church of Medjugorge. I have yet to hear the Church officialy say anything positive about these apparitions. Even the priest who was the spiritual director of the seers has been severely disiplined by Rome. He has been banished to a Monastery of his own order. Rome has ordered him never again to have contact with the alledged seers, and has been ordered never to speak on Medjugorge again, under penalty of excommunication. Romes actions have thus far been only negative on the alledged apparitions.

Lee, Something else that is negative about the alledged apparitions in Medjugorge. Not too long ago a family from Italy who were Jehovah Witnesses went to Medjugorge. They were supposedly converted there. They brought back a statue of our Lady. The statue when in Italy began to cry tears of blood. The Bishop of that Diocese claimed to have himself seen the statue of Our Lady cry. And he approved this supposedly miraculous event. This caused a great sensation around the world. Rome made its own study and found that the tears wear not real. The statue did not cry. The Church condemned this so called miracle. And suspended that Bishop for lieing. That Bishop admitted that he played a major part in the hoax. Something to think about!

Angelo -  You are right about the defrocked Franciscan priest Vlasic. In fact he had a major disagreement with the ‘seer’ Marija. Because he met another lady in Bosnia who claimed to be a mystic and led him astray, away from Medjugorje and the priesthood. The six ‘seers’ in Medj. had nothing to do with this other false prophetess.  Now, the charge of ‘simony’ is very unfair, they only get paid for their travel expenses and none of the 6 seers is wealthy.
Your posts are sincere and respectful Angelo, test the spirits.
I am glad the Padre Pio’s shrine is hosting Mirjana, they got it right !

Lee, I myself lean towards disbelief in the alledged apparitions at Medjugorge. Last I heard there were 25,000 apparitions and counting. Many of the apparitions are said to condradict each other. Some of the words our Lady is said to have spoken go aginst the Gospel. One of the ones I read was that of our Lady telling the alledged seers not to try to convert the Muslims, and to respect their religion. The mandate Christ gave to his Church was to go out to all the nations Baptizing them… Christ called us to convert the world to him, why would our lady say otherwise? Another is that Medical Doctors have called on Rome to tell those who go there not to look directly into the sun, because many who do this now have problems with there eyes. Many devotees of Medjugorge look directly into the sun and see visions. Then their eyes are damaged, many to the point of irreparable blindness. If these vision were of God their eyes would not get damaged. At Fatima 70,000 people looked into the sun and no one’s eyes were damaged. I have known many who have gone on pilgrimage there and when they return they claim to have had a miraculous conversion, problem is with this conversion in which they claim, they suddenly know more than the Church. Without realizing that their so called conversion has made them enemies of Christ’s Catholic Church. Approved apparitions have made devotees better Catholics, not enemies of the Church. I also find that those who dissaprove of Medjugorge are Catholics who are diehard faithful Catholics. I have many negative opinions of these apparitions, and I have tried hard to find positive things about it. In my opinion there are few positive things I see in all this.

Lee, I spoke of some positive things, I would like to mention some. Those who I have known to go on a Pilgrimage to Medjugorge, go with a sincere search for God. They become adorers of the Blessed Sacrament. They make frequent confessions. They become devoted to the Holy Rosary of our Lady. But as I mentioned they suddenly know more than the Church. If the Church speaks negatively about Medjugorge it reminds me of what God says in scripture about on the day of our fasts, we strike with wicked claw. I mean that these devotees turn on the Church like wolves and if another Catholic says he does not believe our Lady is appearing in Medjugorge, then the devotees of the alledged apparitions turn on them like ravenous wolves as well. You said rightfuly “test the spirits”. What can one make of all this?

Angelo - you are doing a terrific job of “testing the spirits”: you’re comparing what you know to be true against other things that may not be true, and seeing if it squares.

The Bereans, in the Bible (Acts of the Apostles, I think?) ‘tested’ what Paul taught them, using the Scriptures to see if he was correct, and Paul praised them for it.  Even Jesus used the Scriptures, constantly, to test Satan and to correct the Pharisees.  We know “due north” and it’s the New Testament, the entirety of it, and read in context.  Good job, Angelo!

The true test of prophecy is given in Deuteronomy. If a prediction made does not come to pass, then we have a false prophet, or a person that is imagining things…
Mirjana from Medjugorge claims to have a parchment with the 10 secret events in the future, each of which will be revealed 3 days in advance by one priest. So we will just have to wait and verify. It could be another 20 years of expectation.

I just wanted cite some modern examples that did not pass the Deuteronomy test, namely:
Fr. Stefano Gobbi, who had a large following, made predictions concerning the anti-christ and other events that were to occur in the 1990’s - nothing happened…
Cristina Gallagher from Ireland, who predicted George Bush would “open the gates for world war 3” - nothing happened… And the same with many american self-styled prophets who are fake.  I have never been to Medjugorje, but have not seen any credible evidence to discredit any of the 6 seers, so far.

I was there in 2001 at Mirjana’s home.  Mirjana’s interpreter at the time said Mirjana did not know English very well..thats why she spoke thru and interpreter. Later in the week..Mirjana has an old college English speaking friend visit..I asked if she new Croatian and she said no. I asked how do you communicate with Mirjana then? She said in English..I asked is Mirjana’s Englsih very good? She said its perfect. I should have confronted Mirjana about it…but instead I told the other pilgrims and they called me a lier and satanic. This trip is laughable now but scary at the time. It was the final nail in the coffin…as I could not get over her kids running around with ipods, the mercedes and bmw’s in the driveway and the very fancy house. I am sad I contributed to her wealth. The decison by the Vatican can not come to soon. That being said God is everywhere…and he can turn the ugliest thing into beauty…and so I am not surprised people have been helped by going there…if they had the same faith at home they would have been helped. I can write more…but I will stop here. All the people profitting from this business ventura are well aware that most people who visit are desperate and fanatics. God bless…the truth always comes out.

Terah James, Thank you. Lee, you mention Fr. Steffano Gobbi, I was once devoted to what was said to be Locutions from our Lady to him. Locutions are something like apparitions. One hears God’s voice or our Lady’s voice within themselves in an audible but yet inaudible voice. Locutions is what Fr. Gobbi claimed, but Rome ruled that the so called Locutions of Fr. Gobbi were not supernatural but rather his own spiritual thoughts. In the 80’s Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVl spoke of a surge in Marian apparitions. He praised it at that time but many of those apparitions were dissaproved by the Church. Why these Hoaxes? I don’t know. Thats why I say the Approved apparitions are enough to keep me on the right path.

Angela, Wow! that was a blast! Many of those who have apparitions are known to be poor and remain poor. St. Juan Diego after the apparitions of Our Lady of Guadalupe remained hidden and poor. Sister Lucia Dos Santos of Fatima entered a convent taking the vow of poverty. The Children who had the apparitions of Our Lady of Beauraing in 1932-33 married and continue to live simple hidden lives. It seems that those who are given apparitions from heaven desire only to live in poverty, meditating on the things of Heaven. That brings to mind another criteria the Church uses to discern authentic apparitions. The life of the seer is observed by the Church during and after the apparitions, every step they take is scrutinized until the day they die. St. Bernadette of Lourdes at her final agony was ordered by the Church to give a final disposition confirming that all she said about the apparitions were true and not lies. Thank you for your testimony. Whatever the Church decides on Medjugorge, I pray the Holy Ghost guide her all the way.

In regard to Angela & Angelo’s comments…The Medjugorje seers have not entered a religious order, like Lucia do Santos or Bernadette Subirous.  So they need to provide for their children.  Having ipods or cars does not make someone rich. German cars are much cheaper in Europe than in America, even the Popemobile is a Mercedes Benz.  The idea that Mirjana Soldo has been faking and acting in all those apparition videos for 30 years is far-fetched. It would mean that millions of pilgrims have been deceived, and even the SCIENTISTS who strap electronic devices to the seers while they are having the visions. The scientists are astounded by this phenomena. Because it is supernatural.

Lee, It is my understanding that the seers of the alledged apparitions of Medjugorge were poor at the beggining of the apparitions. Now its seems they are very well off financialy. In fairness I would like to know how this seer became so very well off. Did she marry a rich man or where did the money to live such a lifestlye come from. What is done with all the money Pilgims leave at Medjugorge? The Holy Fathers Popemobile cannot be compared to this situation. Those cars are especialy made for the Pope and given to him as a gift by the makers, out of generosity and it gives themselves a good image. In Angela’s comment I see negativity on the part of Mirjana. True these alledged seers did not enter a convent. But look at the seers of Beauraing, they went on to marry, work hard for their living, exiting the spotlight, living a hidden life. Thats a big difference compared to the seers of Medjugorge. One of the seers frequently comes to a parish Church in my area and my understanding is that the seer gets paid big bucks. When someone has apparitions and goes off making money off them, the Church calls it the sin of Simony. I’m sure Mirjana is being observed closly by Rome. Some think Rome is being idle, but it is closely studying everything about Medjugorge. There have been several statements from Rome on Medjugorge, all of them negative, nothing positive thus far. May God’s Truth Prevail!

Angelo- Since I have not been to Medjugorje, I don’t know if these seers are rich, I doubt it. Recall that before the 20th century there were no cars, that’s why Juan Diego didn’t drive… The only seer that married a wealthy spouse was Ivan. So what. I don’t believe these ‘simony’ stories, they don’t get paid big bucks (I know a lady in Dallas that hosted a seer). People can work for a living and buy a house and cars, nothing wrong with that.

Lee, What I question is Mercedes Benz, BMW’s, Fancy house ect… from someone who was once poor. The sin of simony is when one uses God for financial gain. If Mirjana works hard for her wealth, what type of employment does she have that pays so well that one can own fancy houses, extremely espensive luxury cars, and I mean not one but more than one. This is a serious question in discerning whether Our Lady is truly appearing in Medjugorge, it is one of the criterias of the Church is making a decision about the Creedence of an alledged apparition.

Angelo, one more comment. Mirjana is married, her husband can buy whatever car he wants. You are assuming simony and luxury without firm evidence. I was offered an old Mercedes for $ 3000. My hairdresser has a Lexus.  Recall that MARIA ESPERANZA, the true and approved mystic from Venezuela was wealthy, had a ranch and many children. There is evidence she predicted a catastrophe in New York city 8 days before the twin towers fell.

Lee, Final comment. I believe for the greater glory of God, we have the right to ask questions. The alledged seers of Medjugorge have made this a public event. So, they have the responsiblity to give the public answers. The validity of these alledged apparitions must be settled once and for all. If the apparitions are false. Then sincere Catholics must not be led further astray.

As a 16 year old who has been to Medjugorje and stayed with Ivan(who is one of the seers) and his family. I can truly say that Medjugorje is blessed by God in my own opinion. Of course whatever the holy father declares either for or against, I will obey.  When it comes to it I beg you not to pass harsh judgement upon it especially if you have never been.  I am saying this for the sake of your own dignity.  Let us all obey The Most Holy Roman Catholic Church and what it teaches.  In the mean time all we can do is just pray prayer is the key to everything.
Pax Vobiscum and may God Bless us all and give us his peace