I don’t really know the doctrinal differences being mentioned here. However, a gut reaction to the whole matter is that Bishop Fellay had, ab initio, broken the vow of entire obedience to which all clerics are bound. His action is similar to what Martin Luther did; I wonder why he chose the name St. Pius X for his society. Pope St. Pius X would be sorely appalled.

Perhaps a legitimate discussion should begin with clarifying the meaning of ecumenism, which must be grounded in our desiring Salvation for all of God’s beloved.

“Love one another as I have Loved you.” -Christ

Outside The Body of Christ, His Church, there is no Salvation.

I guess we all don’t know what the differences are between the Church and Puis X group.  I just thought it was the Latin Tridentine Mass verses out new Mass. Ive been praying for all these years for a reconciliation between these groups.  I would like to go back to the Tridentine Mass.  There is a church here in Las Vegas for the Puis X congregation. We went once and it was beautiful. I know that the Holy Father has approved the use of the Tridentine Masss in our churches, however there are very few churches that offer it. Here in Las Vegas, Nevada, it was never announced in church.  Even after the Pope made the announcement years ago.  Well, I just have to keep on praying!!

Much prayer is needed - yes?
Through the prayers of the Mother of God may our Savior save us all!

And yet Reid, Pelosi, and Sebelius are in full unity?

I hope that Bishop Fellay does take further steps to work with our Pope to come back into full communion with the Church. I know some families within the society, and while I do not agree with their issues with Vatican II, they have shown to have a strong faith and a great devotion to our Blessed Mother. May God heal the society’s wounds!

Having just suffered through another insufferable Novus Ordo this past Sunday, and residing in a diocese (Steubenville, Ohio) that still refuses to follow the Pope’s directives on permitting the Tridentine Mass, I am not optimistic that a resolution to this rift is forthcoming. Apparently, nearly 50 years of decline is not enough to awaken the bureaucrats in the Vatican to the fact that Vatican II and the new liturgy have been unmitigated disasters for the Church. And so, the nonsense will continue… fewer and fewer priests celebrating fewer liturgies in front of fewer faithful… and only traditional Catholics will be judged “outside” the Church, while all the scandalous “catholic” politicians continue on their “faith journeys” without reproach, and our our clueless bishops will continue to make their idiotic pronouncements about immigration reform, the minimum wage, nuclear weapons, global warming, etc., etc. Comical, pathetic, and tragic.

The society isn’t wounded.  It’s Holy Mother Church that needs healing.

All the society has to do is come out in favor of altar girls, female priests, birth control, or some such, and they’re in.  Orthodoxy has no place in conciliar Rome.

One might like to read “Crossing the Dessert,” by Malachi Martin.
We don’t have the Traditional Latin Mass in our city—or that is where I would be.  I will pray, but find it hard to believe that Bishop Fellay will agree with the issues and I do not know particularly what they are. 
What happened to my Church after Vatican II?  Our Blessed Mother Mary appeared to a Nun in Quito, Ecuador in the 17th Century (Our Lady of Good Success) and told the Nun that in the middle of the 20th century there would be a great apostasy.  Sounds an awful lot like Vatican II to me.  Where are all the Devotions? to Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist? and many of the truths we were taught?.  From where I am, I will continue to practice my Faith as I was taught and Pray, Pray, Pray!!

DJ Hesselius,
So well said! It confounds me that a group that simply wants to remain faithful to the ancient teachings of the Church can be “out of unity,” whereas Nancy Pelosi, who claims (publicly) that the Church says “we don’t know when a conceived child becomes human” can receive Holy Communion. It boggles the mind!

Vatican II was a dream come true for Martin Luther.

Luther despised the Mass, and the current Novus Ordo Mass would have been much to his liking, as it is very much in the Protestant genre.A fact is, that Protestant Ministers, helped develope the Novus Ordo Mass.

Consider the chaotic,often bizzare implementation of Vatican II, resulting in a fractured Church today.The absence of leadership from Bishops, clergy dysfunction, no discipline, has provided for a depleted Church, that is in distress.

Archbishop Lefebvre was a partcipant at the Vatican II Concillium and objected in good conscience, to what he percieved to be irregularities bording on heresy.The Society of Pius X subscribes to the traditional, apostolic teachings of the Church.
The Society of Pius X, is never going to accept what is not authentically traditional, apostolic Roman Catholic.They,are not going to be seduced into a liberal modernist agenda.

The Tridentine Latin Mass is alive and well, flourishing in many areas of the U.S. and world at large.Great efforts were made, and continue to marginalize the Mass. In spite of the attempted repression,the traditional Latin Mass, is making a tremendous come back.In time, it will become a very dominate Mass, as it once was.

While it is true that Rome needs to “Clarify” the Vatican II documents and their aftermath since the late 1960’s (modernism) it must also be always pointed out that the main problem with the SSPX is that they consecrated 4 Bishops without the permission of Pope John Paul II. The other problem besides Modernism is Integralism which we here things that the last Pope Benedict XVI had to contend with like the Pope is a heretic and pre- and post Council, needs to be addressed. While it is true that the more conservative and orthodox are being persecuted the response to that cannot be name calling or labels. We are Catholic Christians and have to follow the example of Jesus, who forgave those who persecuted him. We have to respect people even if they are wrong and or if we don’t agree.

There is legitimate concern over a situation in which SSPX holds the exact same views that were held by the entire Roman Church for centuries.  The society is being told that Vatican II has trumped the past. Malachi Martin in his role of a high ranking advisor to Cardinal Bea who then advised John XXIII also offered plenty of concern in his writings.  The bottom line is that you cannot delegate someone to hell for upholding the basis of Catholic beliefs for centuries.  In addition, the SSPX is essentially the same as the Latin Rite Mass which was authorized by the Vatican under the auspices of Raymond Cardinal Burke.  I would say that there is plenty of concern with political correctness being at the core.

The ambigious theology of those that uphold “religious liberty” cannot stand up against the solid Catholic theology of the Catholic Missionary priests many of whom were Martyrs for the Faith. Why did Catholics lose their lives for the pure Catholic Faith , instead of accepting false ,ambigious and heretical beliefs. They believed the Dogma” There is no Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church”. They unerstood very well the axiom ” Lex orandi lex credendi” Of course you can only pray as you believe and believe as you pray. So how can I not pray for the souls in Purgatory , how can I not pray to Jesus truly present at the Consecration in the Mass , how can I not pray to Holy Mary the true Mother of God…...ask non beleivers to pray the same way impossible they would refuse because they do not have the Faith !

Perhaps some of the unhappy Latin Catholics should come visit us in The Eastern Church where The Divine Liturgy is unchanged, and some hymns have been sung since the year 300+.  Of course, be prepared for an hour plus Liturgy - mostly standing; and, by the way - only the Priest will distribute Holy Communion—no “helpers”.  No women on the Alter; no choir; no instruments.  Remember - there are some 26 different “Catholic” Churches in the world—not just Latin. (Roman)

Long live the pure Catholic Faith. It is promoted by God Himself . Do not the devil and all the modernists know that it cannot and will not die!!!!

In this North Carolina diocese, so many parish churches have been thoroughly Protestantized. The Faith taught by the Council of Trent is not preached, and many masses, with applause and priestly attempts at humor resemble the Jay Leno show. A handful go to Confession, but the entire congregation receives Communion. In two of our local parishes, the priest openly preaches heresy - one in particular denying the doctrine of the Assumption. Reports to the bishop are futile. Catholicism worldwide is in decline. The Society of St. Pius X preaches and practices the Ancient Catholic Faith. Remember the Arian heresy that 80% of the hierarchy and laity embraced? St. Athanasius taught Archbishop LeFevbre to defend the Faith, Deo Gratias!

Dear contributors,
The traditional Latin Mass is, in essence, the real solemn form of the mass as it had always been in past ages; the type and structure of the mass that had produced thousands of Catholic Saints through the ages. However, the Vatican II on this issue was informed by the reasoning to bring the value and understanding of the mass to the grassroots all over the world by saying the mass in the local languages. This could be beneficial in the long run. I am aware that many parishes and diocesses all over the world reserve one of the Sunday masses to be said in the traditional Latin. Would this not be enough for the status quo iconoclasts or conservatives? Should this not be a win-win situation for everybody?

I became a Catholic 7 years ago, after 40 years of being a non-practicing Episcopalean: I had never heard of Vatican II; I was unaware of the horrible changes made to the beautiful, solemn Masses in Latin that I experienced as a boy in Nicaragua and Costa Rica, in the 1950’s[my father’s side of the family were catholics]; I rediscovered that beautiful Mass at St Agnes, in NYC[7 years ago, it was the ONLY place to experience it in NYC]; a couple of weeks after I became catholic, God elected Benedict XVI to the papacy and promptly freed catholics to personally request the Immemorial Mass…now we have four places to hear this true Mass on Sundays and can also experience it DAILY, at Holy Innocents Church. Question: WHY WAS VATICAN II NECESSARY? Why was a new council needed, if it was only going to be pastoral and not dogmatic? NO ONE has ever answered this question for me. All I have found from its originator, pope John XXIII, is that he said:“we need some fresh air”...draw your own conclusions my friends…

Mr or Ms Chi:
Latin IS the language of the ROMAN catholic church: when Christ walked the earth, greek was the vernacular in Rome, not latin; latin, however, HAD to be used when addressing the emperor[who said he was god], or you would land in jail; latin, in the Roman catholic church IS THE LANGUAGE OF GOD; any document created by the Vatican, IS NOT OFFICIAL, UNTIL IT IS TRANSLATED INTO LATIN; when you wnat to pray in the streets, take a bus or subway and are surrounded by every vulgarity of the vernacular, it is LATIN that unites you with God and protects you, by SEPARATING you from your surroundings; use of latin during Mass, reminds us of our existential undertaking by our presence there, to separate us from the world and unite us with God; latin UNITES our church, while the vernacular splinters us- before Vatican II, any priest could go to any country in the world and celebrate Mass, any catholic could go anywhere in the world and understand the Mass.

We should not blame the Vatican II on this matter; rather we should blame the entire Catholic faithful. At the time of Vatican II Latin was losing its pride of place even amongst the educated elites. Hence in schools and universities Latin was dubbed a ‘dead language’, and so was given the chop in most of the educational curricula of the time, and even amongst lawyers, doctors and pharmacists who used Latin as means of professional communications. Therefore the Bishops from all over the world that comprised the Vatican II must have advised the Pope and other members about the losing streak of Latin in the scheme of things. This information must have informed the decision of Vatican II on the need to introduce local languages in Church functions, including the Mass. This is an example of the human being being a bundle of contradiction. We yanked off Latin from our lives and now complain that Latin has been removed from the Mass! Therefore if people said at the time that Latin was archaic, then why should Vatican II retain in the Mass? As far as I know, God speaks ALL languages and so can understand you in ANY language!

Blame “the entire Catholic faithful”?!!! Did we ask for the Latin to be replaced by horrid vernacular translations of dubious theology? Were we even consulted? The decline of Latin as an academic or professional language is completely irrelevant. The language as prayer was and is very much alive. I challenge anyone to document that Catholics were losing the ability to understand the Latin of the liturgy at the time of the Vatican II. The issue was never even raised. And today, the question is not what to do for the majority of Catholics who prefer the vernacular, as dismal as it may be. The question is why does the Church continue to persecute those who want to pray as Catholics prayed for 1500 years? The Novus Ordo church continues to decline, whereas the traditional orders cannot even accommodate all the vocations responding to the Church’s ancient and venerable liturgy.

attention: “CHI”...
True, Einstein himself complained that he could no longer “converse” with his scientific friends in latin, as he had been used to[i.e., he was NOT happy about it]...BUT the church is ETERNAL, and should lead the world in what is the RIGHT thing to do, NOT be passive and reactive to Satanic influences…My sister[2 1/2 years older than I]had latin as a REQUIRED course when she entered high school: by the time I attended, 1961- 1964, it no longer was…the timing is clear: I did not know about VAT.II at the time, but now it is clear to me that that is why I [in a public school, BTW]no longer had it as a language, EVEN as an option: I took French instead…Now I also know of the huge power and influence of Masonry[Mormonism, the U.S. Constitution, the Council of Foreign Relations and its related couterparts throughout the world, the United Nations, even 50% of the Vatican]and its historical committment to destroying the Catholic Church…Chi, my friend, your statement is merely a PRAGMATIC one, not an ideological/Aristotelian/Thomian one, which is at the root of our catholic faith…pragmatism is a mindless philosophical tenet that has Heraclitean roots, that preaches constant change and the whim of the moment as something more important to worship, than the eternal Truths that have sustained our Catholic faith for 2000 years…true, nature changes constantly…our faith, however is SUPERNATURAL, and is based on eternal Truths that are supposed to trump everything else in existence…the Triune God will never change: THAT MEANS THE CHURCH, AS THE BODY OF CHRIST, CAN NEVER CHANGE.

No, the decline of Latin as an academic/professional language was relevant here because you’d agree that even those who understood the Latin contents of the Mass at the time were educated people who had Latin as one of the school subjects! So, the decline of Latin in education must have dealt a blow on the continuation of Latin in the Mass. No matter how much philosophy man understands what is very important in our relationship with God is pure pragmatism, ie, the most relevant and easily doable means of achieving a purpose. Local languages are the Mother Tongues of many a Catholic faithful world over. Accordingly, using the language one fully understands is the most pragmatic and efficient way of communicating with God! Since the Pope had approved the use of local languages, Jesus Christ would have approved that also in line with His promise to St. Peter the first pope.

I am onto you, Mr/Ms/Mrs/Miss Chi…you clearly have never attended the Immemorial[Tridentine]latin Mass…otherwise, you would know: that all Missals for this Mass already come translated; that there are precious few things a congregant has to say in latin [“et cum Spiritu tuo” and “Dominus non sum dignus, sub intres sub tectum meum, sed tanto dic verbo, sanabitur anima mea”]and that ALL THE REST of the Mass is uttered by the priest and his acolytes in either silence or subdued voices and chanted by the schola doing the chants[which are also the word of God]..the poor priests are the real victims here, because the protestant format of the Novus Ordo Mass keeps interrupting their silent prayers, while the Catholic Mass is one huge uninterrupted prayer…also, I repeat, the new form forces a priest to remain local, speaking a local language…some poor fellows, such as my first pastor, Father Donald Baker, has to do prepostorous TRI-LINGUAL masses, because his congregants include hispanics and chinamen. As usual, the immoral is the impractical…BTW, as to schooling in latin, ALL schools throughout the world used to teach latin…the influence of the catholic church is such, that even public schools did this, here and abroad…one word from the Pontiff can change all this, and the world will accomodate us again..

Chi
How can you say that saying the Mass in a million different languages will bring the Catholics of the Church together? Back in the day, no matter what nationality you were from, a Catholic could go to Mass and know that the language would ALWAYS be latin. Having one official language for the Mass brings Catholics together far more than having everyone doing it in their own language. This being said, you should know that the language change is one of the least important changes implemented in Vatican II. You should get your facts straight before you criticize. End of story.

@GC, if language change is the least important of the changes in Vatican II, then why all this hue and cry over it? Yes, I am aware that there are other changes but the issue in THIS discussion is the language change, ie, change from Latin to other local languages! And that is what we are all discussing here! When other ‘contentious’ issues related to Vatican II come up, we shall surely discuss them. @ william, saying ‘et cum spiritu tuo’ by the congregant does not make it any more precious than saying, ‘and with thy spirit’ in English or French, Swahili, Hausa, etc. The Holy Mass IS a SACRIFICE and compels whoever attends it to understand fully what is happening. The translated Missal makes this very possible; this missal tells you when and what to say at the right time, while the priest continues in silence or alone at other times! It’s a bright innovation and I support it. Saying, ‘et cum spiritu tuo’ without knowing its meaning is useless.

@GC, furthermore, using Latin does not necessarily bring all Catholic faithful together. What about periods predating Vatican II when Latin was predominant? Did that bring Catholics together? If your argument goes that way, then tell me how the use of Latin stopped the formation of protestantism, how the use of Latin stopped the introduction of Luther’s Reformation, etc. I think what brings Catholics together is the Holy Spirit that prevails in the True Church founded by Jesus Christ. Unanimity, obedience and full understanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church that rests on the shoulders of the pope as the true representative of Christ is the in-thing. Jesus had said to Peter and, by extension, the successive popes, that whatever shalt be loosed on earth shall be loosed in Heaven and whatever is bound shall be bound in Heaven. Let us learn to obey the relevant authority in things that are not sinful and there will be unity in the Catholic Church.

So, “obedience”?  If the pope tells you to worship the devil you must do it?  No.  The SSPX is no more obedient or disobedient than any other Catholic religious order.  The SSPX has their interpretation of Vatican II as do the other orders and diocese of the world.  The point of contention is that the SSPX does not worship the pope (idolatry) like the other religious orders and diocese or any false teachings about Vatican II which did not promulgate any new articles to the Creed.  The SSPX simply practices the Catholic faith as it existed before it was deformed by the false interpretation of Vatican II.

John D. Horton
Lawton, Oklahoma USA

God Bless you, Mr Horton, and God Bless the SSPX !!!

I think God will bless everybody on both sides of this discussion.

Thank you chi!
Finally, someone who says it correctly! The traditonal mass is beautiful to attend with all the pompous traditon etc.What I remember as a child, I didn’t know what has being said at mass!! At home, we said our rosary and prayers in our own language understanding what we were saying and the family loved it. We went to the traditional mass because that was the only mass available at that time for a Catholic family.
How many of you attending traditional mass can honestly say that you can understand everything that is going on…unless, you know latin fluently.Not knowing what is being said becomes a distraction during mass.
The Society of St.Pius X is simply a “breakaway” group who unfortunately are taught “anti-liberation”. In my heart and mind,this is a frightning occurence. Again, this is followed by a number of other societies who are unimpressed by what SSPX beleives in and add other beliefs and so on and so forth…it continues.
Let us all pray that the SSPX will reconsider what they are doing and come back to the true Catholic faith..to the true loving and forgiving God who we know is generous in understanding all our languages.
If you must have a traditional mass..look for one under the right umbrella! John, you sound so angry..in fact, a lot of you out there sound angry..I wish you God’s light and peace and forgive what you have said angainst the Vatican. It’s not at all really, about what mass you attend but about what kind of Christian you are!!!All about loving one another and treating each other with much kindness.
God Bless you all…God’s peace and joy be with you.

THE SCHISMATIC SOCIETY OF PIUS THE TENTH (SSPX)
Its Underlying Spirit Of Deception!
The Society deceitfully claims to follow the teachings of Pope St. Pius the Tenth.  Hear then what this great Pope had to say about Modernists when speaking of Obedience to the Church.

Jesus said to His Apostles, “Whoever listens to you, listens to Me; Whoever rejects you, rejects Me; And Whoever rejects Me, rejects Him who sent Me.”

Obedience to the Magisterium of the Church and especially to Her visible leader, the Pope, is an essential criterion for faithfulness to God.  Pope St. Pius X emphasized this in a speech on May 10, 1909, when he said “Do not allow yourselves to be deceived by the cunning statements of those who persistently claim to wish to be with the Church, to love the Church, to fight so that people do not leave Her… But judge them by their works.  If they despise the shepherds of the Church and even the Pope, if they attempt all means of evading their authority in order to elude their directives and judgments…, then about which Church do these men mean to speak?  Certainly not about that established on the foundations of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.”  (Eph. 2:20)

All this, the Society of St. Pius the Tenth has done; all this the Society of St. Pius the Tenth continues to do.  The Society of St. Pius the Tenth may be many things, but, what it is NOT, is Catholic. +++

THE SCHISMATIC SOCIETY OF PIUS THE TENTH (SSPX)
Its Underlying Spirit Of Deception!
The Society deceitfully claims to follow the teachings of Pope St. Pius the Tenth.  Hear then what this great Pope had to say about Modernists when speaking of Obedience to the Church.

Jesus said to His Apostles, “Whoever listens to you, listens to Me; Whoever rejects you, rejects Me; And Whoever rejects Me, rejects Him who sent Me.”

Obedience to the Magisterium of the Church and especially to Her visible leader, the Pope, is an essential criterion for faithfulness to God.  Pope St. Pius X emphasized this in a speech on May 10, 1909, when he said “Do not allow yourselves to be deceived by the cunning statements of those who persistently claim to wish to be with the Church, to love the Church, to fight so that people do not leave Her… But judge them by their works.  If they despise the shepherds of the Church and even the Pope, if they attempt all means of evading their authority in order to elude their directives and judgments…, then about which Church do these men mean to speak?  Certainly not about that established on the foundations of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.”  (Eph. 2:20)

All this, the Society of St. Pius the Tenth has done; all this the Society of St. Pius the Tenth continues to do.  The Society of St. Pius the Tenth may be many things, but, what it is NOT, is Catholic.