Thank you for bringing this statement to our attention. The die has been cast, the Rubicon crossed by Cuomo the Catholic and the NY State legislature. In another article on this site today “ultimate fighting” is discussed and it is recommended that members of various legislatures view an actual match to see how violent it is. This technique has been used for years by Pro-Life forces to alert Americans as to what RESULTS from abortion. It is time to portray graphically what aberrosexual men and women do to each other. As long as the discussion centers on “civil rights”, loving, medical records, etc., the Church (and sane people!) will always lose. I had a conversation last week with a 70 year old father of four who serves as a eucharistic minister(sic) that he felt badly that these men/women could not have what he and his wife enjoyed. It was the photograph of a South Vietnamese Colonel shooting a captured, bound Ciet Cong soldier through the head that turned the American public against that war. It is truly time to put the toys away.

When the Catholic governor of the state signs the bill into law, will we get another statement or will there be action for once?

And yet at least one of these men has and in all likelihood will adain give communion to the main architect to this travesty Gov. Cuomo.  So called Catholic politicians will go on marginalizing the Church as long as the Bishops of this country fight evil with empty rhetoric.

The same sex is not about “Love” in its true sense.  People do not understand Love any longer.  Through terrible tv shows and a culture of death, Love has been hit hard. 

The Greeks had many different words to explain different types of Love.  Love of friends is Philia.  The Love of God and the Love a man should have for his wife is Agape.  There is also the love that is called Eros and can be good.  But when it is improperly formed, as in the “same-sex” it is very very bad.  It is more about Lust and a poorly formed Eros than about Love. 

My God My God what have they done.

Yawn.  As usual they huff and puff, but do nothing.  In fact, their political lobby effort actually helped pass homosexual “marriage.”  Their lawyers met with Governor Cuomo’s and provided advice that aided Cuomo in drafting bogus religious protections.  These protections then gave two senators cover to renege on their prior campaign promises.

The bishops’ lobbying effort overall is a Mickey Mouse second-rate affair designed to generate a lot of noise and deceive faithful Catholic into believing that the bishops care about moral issues.  When the bishops are serious and want money for their hospitals, they use professional lobbyists.

Were the bishops truly earnest, we’d see at least one of them interdicting at least one of the scores “Catholic” legislators who supported this abomination.  When challenged on this bishops often use the fetid argument that sanction would cause a negative public reaction and make matters worse.  I ask simply: can things get any worse than they are now?  Where are the men with backbones among our hierarchy?

May God forgive them for their action. The same people that held fast for years, have succumbed to public pressure. How ironic, that they now state their “conscience” has made them vote this way. One hopes they soon realize that they should be thankful that Christ’s “conscience” doesn’t change and that He never wavered in His beliefs and Teachings. Hopefully, when the time comes, we will still be able to exercise our right to vote them out of office. This was NEVER about human rights. I pray that someday we return to a Judeo-Christian centered country. We have abandoned the Lord. I also pray He doesn’t abandon us.

I appreciate the second sentence and the fact that they placed it near the top.  Good job on that, Bishops.  Hopefully everyone heeds that clear Catholic teaching.

Let’s be real clear here: Homosexual activists are not fighting any kind of oppression. In truth, they’re looking to have their behavior endorsed.

Homosexuality is the new “Racism”. Gay activists are the aggressors who are intent on forcing the rest of us to accept their abnormal lifestyles as “normal”. And because they portray themselves as “victims” they have hijacked the absolute moral superiority to force their intolerance upon the world.

Countless millenium of morality and commonsense understanding of normal human behavior means nothing now that they’re here with their new self-ordained “wisdom”.

Could it be that we are hearing the death rattle of the American republic?

Even in Illinois they passed to allow gay marriage again a Catholic govenor and senator Catholic I feel all the politicians that are Catholic and vote for abortion and gay marriage should be excommunicated from the church.We all are sinners but what happened to our morals.John Kerry and the Kennedys are Catholics and firm against the churches teachings.I thank God my parents raised me Catholic and i thank my mother for being pro life along with my wife and daughter. GOD BLESS US

Y-e-a-h-h-h-h-h right.

Too little, too late!

Perhaps if Dolan concentrated more on his vocation and responsibilities that go along with that vocation instead of hobnobbing and presiding at Gay Masses all over NYC this would not have happened and he would not be calling foul now.

“. . .an epidemic form of homosexuality, which is more than the usual incidence, which generally occurs in social crises or in declining cultures when license and boundless permissiveness dulls the pain of ceaseless anxiety, universal hostility and divisiveness.  Thus in Betsileo the incidence of homosexuality was visibly increased at a time when the society was in a state of collapse.”
- Abram Kardiner

If I know the above, why does not Dolan and his ilk?

. . . and his ilk call me ugly and stupid.

Pray long, pray hard, pray often
(apparently NYC needs it the most)

Too little, too late!

Perhaps if Dolan concentrated more on his vocation and responsibilities that go along with that vocation instead of hobnobbing and presiding at Gay Masses all over NYC this would not have happened and he would not be calling backtracking now.

“. . .an epidemic form of homosexuality, which is more than the usual incidence, which generally occurs in social crises or in declining cultures when license and boundless permissiveness dulls the pain of ceaseless anxiety, universal hostility and divisiveness.  Thus in Betsileo the incidence of homosexuality was visibly increased at a time when the society was in a state of collapse.”
- Abram Kardiner

If I know the above, why does not Dolan?

. . . and his ilk have call me ugly and stupid.

Pray long, pray hard, pray often
(apparently NYC needs it the most)

It’s also an arbitrary imposition that will never be validated as morally true.

Talk is cheap.  It’s time to excommunicate those Catholic politicians who voted for this, not to mention Mario Cuomo, who signed it.

“Our society must regain what it appears to have lost – a true understanding of the meaning and the place of marriage, as revealed by God, grounded in nature, and respected by America’s foundational principles.”

Well said!

I will pray that our Lord opens the hearts and minds of those poorly formed individuals with political and economic power to this truth!

It is so sad to see our society crumble before our eyes.

Just sick for a government institution!  The world watched the scandals of the gay movement within the church unravel over the past 50-60 years.  We saw hundreds upon hundreds of cases whereby children were abused by the gay movement within our sacred church.  We Catholics lost millions of dollars in this, and closed many churches.  We have got these people OUT and are cleaning up our act.  But now, because of government interference we are having to close our adoption agencies because the gay movement ia the government’s almighty hand, is trying to FORCE us Catholics to hand our innocent children over to these same gay people through adoption!!!  Is this sick or is this sick?  Wake up America before our freedom and churches are all gone.  Call it what it is.  This sin of gay marriage will once again reap God’s wrath.  Please pray!

Shame on them.  They call us names for harboring gays within the confines of our walls for decades.  The gay movement abused hundreds upon hundreds of children.  WE innocent Catholics paid millions for their crimes and lost many a church.  Now, they want us Catholics to hand over our children to these same gays?  They want to allow them “marriage” rights so history can repeat itself?  Who will the children sue 40 years from now?  The government? Is this all sick, or is this sick?  Wake up America!

Far too little, far too late.

Marriage occurs at both the state and church level. State level is a contract little different from a business relationship. People will continue to marry in this way and gay marriage is no different. You don’t often go to a courthouse to marry in the eyes of god. Honestly it should not matter. Gays are here to stay. Let them marry if they want to in a courthouse. The Catholic church should not interfere anyway given its widespread issues with pedophilia.  The church should let priets marry so they stop abusing little boys.

“Love thy neighbor as thy self”  Enough of the illogical attempts at rationalizing the Church’s stance on homosexuality.  Embrace the message of love proclaimed by Jesus and end the unjustified and hurtful homophobic rhetoric.  The RC church is such a positive force in the world (education, health care, social justice), but its magisterium chooses to retain, instead of reject, faulty doctrinal beliefs that have real-life negative consequences in the lives of so many of its believers.  The Church teaches us to accept fault when wrong, it’s high time She does the same.  I have hope.

Thank you all for standing firm in the face of this attack on marriage and the family.  In the end, God will prevail and we all must stand for what is right!  God bless you all.

You think the divorce rate is bad now, wait ‘til some of the first gay “marriage” divorce cases get filed. And if there are kids involved…
What a circus!!! God help us….

For the bishops of New York this is too little, too late.  The Catholic problem in the state is endemic and the response is anemic.  It is so pathetic and tiresome to see bishops again and again wringing their hands when things go very badly in the Church. They “worry that both marriage and the family will be undermined.”  Is that the best they can do?

“Honestly it should not matter. Gays are here to stay. Let them marry if they want to in a courthouse. The Catholic church should not interfere anyway given its widespread issues with pedophilia.  The church should let priets marry so they stop abusing little boys.”

**It absolutely does matter—this is a gateway to allow for dissidents to sue the Church and affiliated organizations (along with any religious organization, really) for not compromising their deeply held beliefs.  It’s not just about gay “marriage,” it’s also about adoption, domestic partner benefits/recognition, and so on.

**One of the many problems is that they want to marry *anywhere* they want—and have sued religious venues for not having the “right” to do so.  The flip side is that the government shouldn’t interfere with the Church—something that is, in fact, mandated in our constitution.

**Studies have shown that the status of priestly celibacy has absolutely nothing to do with the abuse scandals that have wounded the Church.  This makes sense because this problem is just as widespread throughout our public school system.

@Sean: If you let the mainstream media be your teacher, you will always be ignorant. The Catholic Church has lower percentage of abuse than protestant, public education, medical field, etc. The media chooses to not focus on that, because it hates the Church (the darkness always hates the light).  Celibacy does not cause homosexual abuse by men of young men. Do the research with an open heart and learn.

@George: the magisterium of the Catholic church does not have the authority to change what God has revealed and confirmed: acting upon same sex attraction is disordered, always has been, always will be. Does not matter how many people are deceived into thinking otherwise. Read what Christ taught about marriage. The Church is here to teach the truth; not to be a social service agency.

(George wrote - “Love thy neighbor as thy self.”)

I’m afraid your understanding of scripture is completely off the mark George.

Christ never said that we should accept sin. In fact, if you truly love your neighbor you will call out his/her sin and help them. But of course, this should be done from a heart of love, free of hypocrisy.

And your use of the term “homophobic” is completely illogical. In fact, it is the militant gay lobbyists who are “Christian-phobic” as is evident in their !@#$% of the original truths of moral behavior stated many millennium ago in the scriptures.

Criticism of the active homosexual lifestyle is not cruel and unloving anymore than criticism of an alcoholic’s lifestyle would be cruel and unloving. Christ forgave the prostitute who was to be stone to death and He warned her persecutors about making an ultimate life and death condemnation of her soul. That final judgement was God’s alone. However- Christ’s final words to her were these: “..go, AND SIN NO MORE.”

Unsolicited political suggestions for the traditional marriage cause from a lukewarm Catholic: The entire Catholic Church, from the USCCB down to the last rural diocese, should renounce IRS exemptions.  Bishops should publicly excommunicate politicians, and indeed whole legislative bodies, who disobey Church teachings.  Bishops and priests should start openly preaching for local social conservative candidates and actively preach against social liberals.  Churches should take up collections for social conservative candidates.  In fact, publicly invite conservative politicians to speak after Mass in the parish hall, etc.

The Church can’t afford incorporation.  Still, the NY gay marriage OK demonstrates that the Church and social conservatives can’t count on the GOP to vote lockstep even after episcopal threats.  The only way forward is to go beyond the tax code boundaries.  It’s time for the American Catholic hierarchy to become a legal extension of the Republican Party or perhaps even a future Christian social conservative political party. EWTN’s limited clout can’t serve as a proxy for the Church’s political interests.

I only know that God made me and I have been with the same person for the past 31 years. I know very few heterosexual couples who have managed to stay together -happily- that long. We have raised children who are straight and happily married with numerous children. Now that she is completely disabled, I am a caregiver as well. If that does not constitute love, then it is a sad day indeed. I’m not sure how the two of us “threaten” anyone else’s marriage and I’ve never heard anything more coherent than “Because it just does!”

PS:  If you think you don’t know anybody who is gay? I would bet my entire paycheck this week that you do. We’re everywhere.

Look, they have been in the business of killing babies since the early 1970’s, all the while Catholic couples nereduce their marraige to fornication by use of artficial contraception.  Sex is basically treated as a form of recreation.  All the while, when someone asks a question about homosexual behavior and sin, the homily returned is: “God wants us all to be good.”  How very Episcopalian. You see, you can’t spend 40 plus years avoiding preaching the truth loudly and calling for repentance, and expect anything different than this.  You can’t get 5 minutes of teaching at mass to save your life in the last 40 years and so how can people expect any difference than the less-than-pagan result we have now?  Cuomo should be excommunicated, but will it happen?  You already know the answer.  Talk is cheap, and letters on Catholic position statements are even cheaper, if that is possible.  There are lots of causes, but one is that Catholics think it is just fine to promote sin throught the use of govnerment edict.  And how can you blame them.  After all where are the actual real-world consequences for actual real-world behavior.  People have it all wrong, the scandle was not priests and sex and children, no, the scandal is abandonment of duty no matter the costs.  It is well past time for some “hard teaching” let them walk away who are no longer with us.  Give me permission and ten minutes and I will get to my local chancery office with car fare for the Bishop to make the rounds and deliver ths so-long message to public sinners.  Sin is bad enough, but for this to go unanswered YET AGAIN is too much.  Have they learned nothing from the aborton death? I vote they speak plainly from the pulpit and kiss the tax dediuctions good-bye.  The persecution is clost-at-hand anyway, why not get it underway, just like Cana. We are well past getting down to business the time for posturing was over 40 years ago.  It is time we face the ugly reality that there are very very few Catholics, we need to find out who they are, have them take a renewal pledge and toss the others,  they will be quite happy somewhere else.  We are better off wth a smaller healthy church than this big dead infected thng.  The Bishops have waited too long to catechise people it is way too late. Everyone is a sinner, but if nobody wishes to repent, then there is no church.  You can’t yoke actual Catholics to this alleged group of so-called Catholics.  Mr. Cuomo you sir are one serious disgrace, and that goes for any alleged Catholic that voted in favor of destroying marriage.

@nansialex You’re not “everywhere”. In fact, you’re only about 4% of the population at best. And the children you raised were the result of a heterosexual act. Homosexuality will never produce any offspring. It is a biological dead-end, an evolutionary dead-end, and it is completely incompatible to the natural function of the human body.

Did God make you? Yes. Did God make you with a homosexual disposition? Possibly. Possibly not. Should you act upon it? No. No more so than the alcoholic should act on his/her disposition towards alcoholism.

Raising children can constitute love. Being a caregiver can constitute love. Same sex attraction is not love- it is a disorder. Acting upon those same sex attractions is acting out a disordered act. Otherwise- incest would constitute “love”. Pedophilia would constitute “love”. Pederasty would constitute “love”. Bestiality would constitute “love”.... and on it goes.

When the definition of marriage is changed- it is changed for everyone. It is instantly rendered meaningless, and thus the family (the basic most fundamental unit of society) is rendered meaningless. The terms “mom” and “dad” will have no validation and no meaning other than “caregivers”. Children do not need “caregivers” (foster homes can do as much)- what they need are parents. A mom, and a dad.

P.S. I know numerous gay men and lesbian women (about two dozen) and monogamy is not their strong suit or their inclination. I’ve talked to several of them about that, and none of them know any other same sex “couples” who have had truly monogamous relationships for any length of time. I think this entire notion that same sex attractions can produce long term stable relationships as well as (or even better) than the average heterosexual marriage (even with the climbing divorce rates) is pure spin and propaganda.

Same sex “couples” can use any number of legal contracts to reap the same financial/fiduciary benefits as married couples, and they could certainly lobby for legislation to access similar tax shelters. But that’s not what they really want. Because their real agenda here is to force the acceptance of their disorder and dysfunctional lifestyles and choices onto the other 96% of society. Especially Christians. Homosexual activists are not fighting any kind of oppression. In truth, they’re looking to have their behavior endorsed. And they’re attempting to destroy any and all institutions that adhere to traditional values. In fact- is the militant gay lobbies who are the aggressors here.

If it is true that the bishops believe that all persons must be treated with dignity and respect, then why do they continue to refer to those men and women who have a disordered sexual orientation as homosexuals rather than men and women with a disordered sexual inclination? How does identifying someone according to sexual attraction or sexual preference, respect the inherent dignity of the human person?

(Nancy wrote - “How does identifying someone according to sexual attraction or sexual preference, respect the inherent dignity of the human person?”)

With all due respect Nancy- the “gay/lesbian” movement in and of itself has made their sexual preference the focus here. They identify themselves by their sexual disorder: “gay/lesbian”, “same-sex”, “homosexual” and so on. And of course, this out of logical necessity. After all, the entire point to this issue IS their insistence that society recognize their sexual orientation- is it not? THEY are the ones who are reducing their “being”, their dignity, to their sexual disorder.
And that’s the point here: their sexual disorder produces no offspring does it? No. Because it does not fit into the natural paradigm of our human biology and evolution. Even if heterosexual couples are unable to have children, their coupling still fits into the natural paradigm as designated by our evolutionary biology. For the same-sex “couple” it is a sex act purely for the sake of sexual gratification, and nothing more- period. It can never culminate in the creation of another life. It is (by all definitions) a biological, evolutionary, and moral dead-end. It is sexual gratification purely for the sake of sexual gratification of which the human body is not designed. It is an ultimate form of self-serving narcissism- and nothing more. And it is an act that necessitates the unnatural role-playing of one of the individuals to assume the role of the opposite gender. The act itself is little more than a futile attempt to mimic the biological norm of the heterosexual act. That is not “love”- that is a sexual disorder.

I doubt if Archbishop Dolan can be very proud of the avalanche of hate that has greeted his remarks here. This rabid war-on-gays rhetoric is not the Gospel, but an evil parody thereof.

@CatholicBri, Bright Star and the rest of the gang :-)

I would encourage everyone to read the following statements from Church authority regarding sexual orientation - quite insightful.  Before doing so, I would like to pose this question and ask you all before responding to ponder it over a period of quiet meditative prayer: Is it fair to draw a distinction between identity and sexual behavior?  This question represents the crux of the issue of homosexuality for the Church.  And for me, answering ‘no’ liberated me from a long period of deceitful, self-loathing and destructive behavior.  A little background, I am 29 year old man from a large southern city, born to fabulous parents (one being the lawyer for a Catholic diocese), educated alongside my brothers and sisters in diocesan schools where as a senior, I was student body president, voted ‘Best Christian Attitude’ by fellow students and teachers, won the school service award, lettered and was captain of hs sports and graduated at the top of my class and continued on to complete my undergraduate and graduate degrees with success.  I paint this picture in order to put a ‘face’ to these comments and the aforementioned question.  My journey in self discovery was extremely difficult and resulted in me trying to take my own life after concluding that acting on my God given desires to love a man was ‘disordered’ and sinful.  Thankfully, with the help of God and his buddies on earth (priests, family and friends), I came to understand that it did not have to be the case.  I could remain a faithful Christian Catholic while being truthful to who God made me - a talented individual made in his image and likeness…who happens to be gay.  So, again I write, “Love thy neighbor as thy self”, I write it with conviction, emphasizing the ‘Love thy self’ part, for in loving oneself, your ability to love God and others is vastly improved.  Enjoy the reading friends. Love and light, George

“Sexuality…is a fundamental dimension of every human being.  It is reflected physiologically, psychologically, and relationally in a persons gender identity as well as in ones primary sexual orientation and behavior. For some young men and women, this means a discovery that one is homosexual, i.e., that ones sexual inclinations are orientated predominately toward persons of the same sex.”

- Human Sexuality: A Catholic Perspective for Education and Lifelong Learning, United States Catholic Conference, 1990

“It seems appropriate to understand sexual orientation (heterosexual or homosexual) as a deep seated dimension of ones personality and to recognize its relative stability in a person…Generally, homosexual orientation is experienced as a given, not as something freely chosen. By itself, therefore, a homosexual orientation cannot be considered sinful…Sexual identity helps to define the unique persons we are. One component of our sexual identity is sexual orientation….”

- Always Our Children: A Pastoral Message To Parents Of Homosexual Children and Suggestions for Pastoral Ministers, NCCB Bishops Committee on Marriage and Family, 1997

“Church teaching is positive with regard to homosexual persons considered in the totality of their beings…Church teaching does not morally condemn homosexual orientation…Nor are homosexual persons to be blamed for not changing their orientations…

Church teaching indicates that even with regard to homogenital activity no one except Almighty God can make certain judgments about the personal sinfulness of acts…the prejudice against homosexuals is a greater infringement of the norm of Christian morality than is homosexual orientation or activity.”

- The Prejudice Against Homosexuals and the Ministry of the Church, Washington State Catholic Conference, 1983

“There is a great deal of misinformation about homosexuality…no modern church document labels a homosexual orientation as sinful…The Church goes on to assert that a homosexual orientation is not chosen and, thus, not immoral. It defines homosexuality as a ‘fundamental dimension of personality,’ so parents should not seek to change homosexuals but love them as they are.”

- Rev. Robert Mattingly, SJ, Gozagaga HS, Washington, DC (read his GREAT article in the National Catholic Educators journal ‘Momentum’ from 2004, here: http://www.cpcsm.org/GayAdolCathSchoolsP1_04.pdf#

(Joe wrote - “This rabid war-on-gays rhetoric is not the Gospel, but an evil parody thereof.”)

On the contrary Joe- this rabid war on Christian values is not the Gospel.

Just because a Christian rejects the dysfunction of homosexuality does not mean that the Christian necessarily hates the homosexual. In fact, the Gospels demand that we love the sinner, and hate the sin. And if you truly DO love the sinner- then the last thing you would do is condone his sin- no? Who would support “another drink” for the alcoholic? Would you condone the incestuous act between to siblings?

But of course- the ultimate aggression here, the ultimate “war-rhetoric”, is coming from those individuals and groups who demand that all of society accept their new corrupt destruction of the term “marriage”. They are (in truth) waging a war on all of society by ultimately rendering the definition of family- meaningless. They are destroying the natural paradigm of the family. And as such, they are rendering the moral building blocks of society as meaningless.

The true victim here- is society. And it is being victimized by a minority of sexually disordered militants, who demand that all traditional values accept and endorse their dysfunction as a moral “right”.

Homosexuality is being deceptively and disingenuously fostered as the new “racism”. It’s goal is NOT to promote openness- it’s goal is to SHUT DOWN any and all dissent. And it is specifically targeting Christianity.

The time has come to now excommunicate Cuomo, and every single “catholic” politician that signed for this abomination.

To George:

You simply cited so called “Catholic Conferences” which have been responsible for more misinformation and confusion on this topic than any other “catholic” source.

I will cite for you a more reliable source for authentic Catholic Truth George:

THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:

Happy reading George:

(CHASTITY AND HOMOSEXUALITY)

“2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.“142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.”

Amid all this distress, there is some reassurance. I quote from a portion of one of today’s Scriptural readings, from Genesis:

“22 And they turned themselves from thence, and went their way to Sodom: but Abraham as yet stood before the Lord.
23 And drawing nigh he said: Wilt thou destroy the just with the wicked?
24 If there be fifty just men in the city, shall they perish withal?...
26 And the Lord said to him: If I find in Sodom fifty just within the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake…32 I beseech thee, saith he, be not angry, Lord, if I speak yet once more: What if ten should be found there? And he said: I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.”

I understand your position, Bright Star, but I wonder what in practice is the alternative? The tradition alternative is to force gay men and women to marry people of the opposite sex. This is the source of huge unhappiness (do you agree?) and is in fact an attack on marriage, since it changes a loving partnership of equals into an arena of slavery and deception.

If the bishops of New York, as a body, can work together to issue this statement which accomplishes little why cannot the bishops, as a body, issue a staement regarding Canon 915, declaring that Cuomo may not be administered Holy Communion within their boundaries?  If the bishops would only stand up pro-actively on these issues. the ‘pretend’ Catholic politicians just might think twice even if only about the dismay of their Catholic constituents.

(Joe wrote - “I understand your position, Bright Star, but I wonder what in practice is the alternative? The tradition alternative is to force gay men and women to marry people of the opposite sex. This is the source of huge unhappiness (do you agree?) and is in fact an attack on marriage, since it changes a loving partnership of equals into an arena of slavery and deception.”)

The alternative Joe- is celibacy.

BrightStar, are you by any chance my grandpa? :) I’m assuming you are based on your interest in avoiding the personal text I wrote preceding the references from Church authority on homosexuality. 

I encourage you once again to resist desire to draw hasty conclusions, but rather spend a significant amount of time contemplating the issue by reflecting on my story, reading testimonials of other religious, gay individuals and analyzing scientific and spiritual texts regarding homosexuality. I spent 21 years conforming to the Church’s catechetical instructions regarding homosexuality, so no need to cite the CCC.  When I tried taking my own life a decade ago, I did so because of the months and years I had spent in angst after reading and rereading the text you quoted.  For suicide in the eyes of the Church vis-à-vis the catechism proved to be a painful, yet acceptable, exit from the suffering I faced given my “grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship…” (2282 CCC).  As you can see, your quoted text, was not, is not and will never constitute “happy reading” for me, yet is representative of the antiquated views of a few unyielding individuals within a beautiful institution that will eventually reform, just as it’s done in past on a number of teachings.

The sad fact remains that my attempted suicide proved an acceptable alternative to being gay in light of the catechism’s description of homosexuality as a sinful ‘cross to bear’.  This was too heavy of a burden for me, as it unnecessarily continues to be today for countless others.  Fortunately, I survived, and continue to live a beautiful life today accepting homosexuality as a splendid gift from my creator.  The Church, alongside all reputable medical institutions, recognizes that sexual orientation for the same sex is not a chosen disorder, rather an innate, biological phenomenon, similar to heterosexuality, and should be treated as such and not discouraged.  The catechetical teachings on homosexuality are incongruous with modern science and its own beliefs on criteria for mortal sin - 1) homosexuality is not sinful, 2) one doesn’t freely choose it, etc.

At a minimum, I expect the Church to include in its catechism entry on homosexuality a ‘notwithstanding’ clause similar to the one they place after condemning masturbation, that essentially reduces moral culpability of the act:

“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability. (CCC 2352)
 
Such a clause or acknowledgement is just if you are going to place homosexual acts alongside masturbation and other acts considered “sins gravely contrary to chastity” e.g. fornication, pornography (CCC 2396).

It is evident that I am well educated on this issue being that it is close to my heart and I consider it a Christian duty to help others understand what took my, so painstakingly long to discover.  I wish you and everyone else the courage to open your heart and minds as you discern this issue.

See you at church my neighbor! 

George

“Church teaching is positive with regard to homosexual persons considered in the totality of their beings…Church teaching does not morally condemn homosexual orientation…Nor are homosexual persons to be blamed for not changing their orientations… Church teaching indicates that even with regard to homogenital activity no one except Almighty God can make certain judgments about the personal sinfulness of acts…the prejudice against homosexuals is a greater infringement of the norm of Christian morality than is homosexual orientation or activity.”

- The Prejudice Against Homosexuals and the Ministry of the Church, Washington State Catholic Conference, 1983

It always amuses me when the dominant culture cries “Persecution!” when legislation like this is passed.  I am a loyal, practicing Catholic who loves the liturgical, sacramental nature of the Church, but, truth is truth, and it has been the Church which has been a chief persecutor of homosexual persons.  The Church has burned them, ostracized them, called them “disordered,” said that when persecuted they have only themselves to blame, refused to endorse UN resolutions calling for homosexual acts to be decriminalized.  Who is the victim here?

The New York approval of the Same Sex marriage Act is a serious attempt to weaken and damage the Catholic Church. Catholic legislators who promoted this legislation have committed a heresy against a teaching of the Church. This heresy is being called by some as a “personal heresy”. In this situation one really opposes evil pending legislation, but for other reasons must approve it. Heresy of any kind is a deliberate rejection of a specific teaching of the Church. When a person becomes a heretic he automatically excommunicates himself from the Church. He can return to Holy Communion only after he repents with the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Receiving Holy Communion with out repenting is a sacrilege. Archbishop Dolan has been in close contact with the governor and key legislators, so it is possible he has warned them of their error and sin. To avoid scandal and keep Catholics properly advised, it would be beneficial if he made their status as heretics known publically. The Vatican has established Canon 915 which in part says “those who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to communion”. Lets hope this rule is respected by all.

Joe, the alternative is to remain abstinent, not “to force gay men and women to marry people of the opposite sex.” This actually causes MORE damage. The focus is always on the behavior, not the person. In the same way that someone who is heterosexual in orientation is called to abstinence until marriage. Any sex outside of marriage is ALSO considered disordered. It’s not like heterosexual people have the RIGHT to have sex outside/before marraige because they’re heterosexual. The sin is still the sin. In fact, in the Catechism ALL sins of sex outside of marriage fall under “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery.” This “fight” for the right to be heterosexual in society as acceptable is parallel with feminist movement in that it tried to deal with an injustice by making women equal to men in their behaviors - not in their dignity. The feminist movement tried to deal with the injustice of men abandoning women and children by pushing for women to be just like men - even in their promiscuity. It was under the guise of “equal opportunity.” And they have suceeded: women have equal opportunity. They act just like the same men that abandoned them: they’re more promiscuous, they’re abandoning their children, they’re killing them in their womb, etc… They’re making more money. But at what cost? So, would you say that we are better off now with the feminist movement the way that it is?

You don’t deal with an injustice by promoting sin. In the same way that you don’t deal with poverty/overpopulation by handing out condoms. So, the injustice of homosexual people being treated unjustly by society is not right. As stated by a previous response, we are supposed to treat everyone with dignity and respect. So, the Christian solution will NEVER be to equate the ACT of homosexual behavior with the fair treatment of an homosexually oriented individual.

Our rights come from God - at least that’s what the Constitution of the United States says. So, how God, through the constitution, could now be in favor of allowibng homosexual men and women to opennly recognize their “union” is beyond me. I can tell you for certain, that the pro-gay lobby has a misunderstood concept of what God wants and what He deems as OK. They have misunderstood “love they neighbor.” When Jesus was presented with the woman caught in adultery, he told her “go, and SIN No MORE.” He loved her. But, did not want her sinning anymore.
As Catholics, we take the SAME position with all those engaged in sinful behavior - even those of a non-sexual nature: theft, adddiction, envy, etc…

It is a self-evident Truth that we have been endowed by God with the inherent Right to be treated with dignity and respect. Engaging in or condoning homosexual sexual acts or any sexual act that does not respect our inherent Right to be treated with dignity and respect, is a violation of our Civil Rights.

Joe, the alternative is to remain abstinent, not “to force gay men and women to marry people of the opposite sex.” This actually causes MORE damage. The focus is always on the behavior, not the person. In the same way, someone who is heterosexual in orientation is called to abstinence until marriage. Any sex outside of marriage is ALSO considered disordered. It’s not like heterosexual people have the RIGHT to have sex outside/before marraige because they’re heterosexual. The sin is still the sin. In fact, in the Catechism ALL sins of sex outside of marriage fall under “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery.”

This “fight” for the right to be heterosexual in society as acceptable is parallel with feminist movement in that it tried to deal with an injustice by making women equal to men in their behaviors - not in their dignity. The feminist movement tried to deal with the injustice of men abandoning women and children by pushing for women to be just like men. It was under the guise of “equal opportunity.” And they have suceeded: women have equal opportunity. They act just like the same men that abandoned them: they’re more promiscuous, they’re abandoning their children, they’re killing them in their womb, etc… They’re making more money. But at what cost? So, would you say that we are better off now with the feminist movement the way that it is?

You don’t deal with an injustice by promoting sin. In the same way that you don’t deal with poverty/overpopulation by handing out condoms. So, the injustice of homosexual people being treated unjustly by society is not right. As stated by a previous response, we are supposed to treat everyone with dignity and respect, including those with a homosexual orientation. It is wrong to be hostile towards them or discriminate against them. They are children of God. They just have a different disorder. Some people are disordered with blindness, or with depresison, or mental retardation, or with cancer, etc… So, the Christian solution will NEVER be to equate the ACT of homosexual behavior with the fair treatment of a homosexually oriented individual.

Our rights come from God - at least that’s what the Constitution of the United States says. So, how God, through the constitution, could now be in favor of allowing homosexual men and women to opennly recognize their “union” is beyond me. I can tell you for certain, that the pro-gay lobby has a misunderstood concept of what God wants and what He deems as OK. They have misunderstood “love they neighbor.” When Jesus was presented with the woman caught in adultery, he told her “go, and SIN No MORE.” He loved her. But, did not want her sinning anymore.

One of the cries of the homosexual movement is that “it’s not fair.” And I say, “What’s not fair?” That they don’t get to act like sinfully in society? That their lifestyle is seen as disordered? There are organizations out there making the same “it’s not fair” plea. For example, NAMBLA is an organization that wishes it were OK for adult men and pubescent boys to opennly be in a sexual “love” relationship. They want the “right” to have the relationship recognized by society. In much the same way, there are other organizations fighting for their “rights” to behave how they see OK. Just because you are fighting for rights does not mean that the rights you are fighting for are moral. Just because you have a right does not mean you are RIGHT. In this country you have the freedom to be wrong!

As Catholics, we take the SAME position with all those engaged in sinful behavior - even those of a non-sexual nature: theft, adddiction, envy, etc… Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Nancy D.

You said: “Engaging in or condoning homosexual sexual acts or any sexual act that does not respect our inherent Right to be treated with dignity and respect, is a violation of our Civil Rights.” I’m not quite sure what you mean by that.

You say violation of our “civil right.” If you mean that because a STATE has given someone the right to so something, that’s not constitutional. Just because it was by a democratic process also doesn’t mean that it is moral - or a right. As stated before, our RIGHTS come from God. By virtue, that means that God is SUPERIOR to democracy. Even though democracy is a better means by which we should be governed, democracy is subservient to God. Democracy is the means by which the people could be protected from the governement getting too much power, i.e. giving powers and rights. The moment we allow the STATE (i.e courts, congress) to GIVE us rights, then they can also take them away. And that is why it is imperative that we remember Who gives us our rights. The state serves the purpose of protecting society, not infringing its own will, as in the case of the judicial activism that goes on this country (i.e. Proposition 8 being ruled unconstitutional in California)

(George wrote - “the antiquated views of a few unyielding individuals within a beautiful institution that will eventually reform, just as it’s done in past on a number of teachings.”)

Sorry George. The Church’s view on the grave disorder of homosexuality will never change. Why? Because homosexuality is a disorder against Natural Law.

(George wrote - “The Church, alongside all reputable medical institutions, recognizes that sexual orientation for the same sex is not a chosen disorder, rather an innate, biological phenomenon, similar to heterosexuality, and should be treated as such and not discouraged.”)

Actually, that’s not entirely true. There is no scientific evidence that homosexuality is “innate”.

The fact of the matter is George, is that you are called to a life of celibacy. Instead, you have deemed your abnormal condition as “normal” and you have deemed the Church’s “RATIONAL” “TIMELESS” and “UNCHANGING” stance as “abnormal”.

Homosexuality does NOT fit the natural paradigm of the human species:

Same-sex attraction is incapable of reproducing. Therefore it is in and of itself an evolutionary DEAD END.

The human body is NOT designed for same-sex acts of copulation. The human @nus has been specifically designed to excrete hazardous biological waste and it is not lubricated. Therefore it is in and of itself outside the normal function of biological design.

The number of gay/lesbian individuals in society it only 4% at best. Therefore it is definitely outside the statistical/mathematical definition of “normal”.

But of course, if your entire justification for accepting your disorder as “normal” is your irresistible urge to have sex with individuals of the same sex, then how can you possible deny pedophiles, pederasts, and incestuous inclined individuals their right to “love” as they desire?

Here’s a simply test to check for the authenticity of any Catholic view:

If it ain’t in the Catechism- it ain’t Catholic.

The Church is not to blame for your dysfunction George. Perhaps you should stop trying to change the world- and start trying to change yourself. And you can start by pursuing a celibate lifestyle.

Perhaps George, you should consult the view of a well accredited psychiatrist who has more experience counseling people with same-sex attractions, than anyone else on the planet. Oh and, he happens to be Catholic:

Dr Richard Fitzgibbons:

“In my clinical experience over the past twenty years I have witnessed the resolution of the emotional pain which caused homosexual temptations and behavior in several hundred males and females. Their process of healing occurred, first, through insight-oriented psychotherapy to identify the origins of their conflicts and then through the use of forgiveness and Catholic spirituality. Such a treatment approach is similar in ways to the employment of spirituality in the treatment of substance abuse disorders. In fact, major breakthroughs were made in the management of addictive disorders only after a reliance on God was made the cornerstone of the treatment plan. Prior to that time, traditional psychotherapy alone resulted in minimal improvement. The use of Catholic spirituality in the treatment of homosexuality follows a similar pattern.”

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0011.html

Rafael, you are correct, many of our Civil Rights exist in order to protect and secure our inherent, unalienable Rights that have been endowed to us from God, including our unalienable Right to be treated with Dignity and Respect as God intended.

The Church has changed positions on moral issues before, e.g. slavery, and can do so again in the future.  Until that day comes, I will invoke God’s grace and the catechetical doctrine of ‘primacy of conscience’ (CCC 1776-1802) when regarding homosexuality. 

For the time being, I think it best if we agree to respect each others opinions on the matter.  The beauty of religion is that it is rooted in faith, which by definition is divinely mysterious and therefore cannot be proven.  This intimate relationship with God is deeply personal and must be treated as such.  I will continue to strengthen this relationship by employing God’s grace and the tools available the Church (prayer, sacraments, theologians, community).  In doing so I can hope to continue to make positive changes in my life and, by example not force, encourage others to do the same. 

Blessings.

George, the Catholic Church never advocated slavery on a doctrinal basis.
And the Church will never change it’s moral teaching on the unnatural dysfunction of homosexuality.

The best thing you can do, is live a celibate life George. No matter what your inclinations, God loves you and He wants nothing more than for you to turn to Him in your weakness. I’ll pray for you George. I’ll pray for your struggle, and I’ll pray a prayer of thanksgiving for having had the honor of having this discussion with you. Peace be with you my friend.

Bright Star, you are incorrect. The Holy Office authoritatively taught in 1866 that slavery was in accord with natural and divine law; the document bears the signature of Pius IX.

Again, we disagree, and that would be okay if there were mutual respect for one another’s thoughts, sadly this is not the case.  By urging me to change a God given and inextricable part of me, you are being disrespectful - albeit unintentional.  In the debate over homosexuality, there is only one person who is susceptible to being harmed - the gay individual.  Compassion and understanding is needed, not pleas for that individual to change.  Following the Church belief that homosexuality is innocuous, it is only logical to conclude that its mutually inclusive by product, homosexual sexual activity, is also harmless.  If a gay individual chooses to pursue celibacy, s/he is perfectly within his/er right to do so, but it cannot be required nor expected.  Take for example a couple in which one or more of the partners is/are sterile, they are not forbidden from partaking in the pleasures of sexual intercourse and nor are they discouraged from adopting.  God and his gay children are in perfect harmony. 

I will not likely be returning to this website for I feel like both you and I have expressed our points adequately.  I continue to make great efforts to achieve a more perfect union with the Holy Spirit and hope the same for everyone else.  Life in all of its diversity is beautifully divine.

Nancy,
I don’t think anyone is arguing withholding respect. The Church’s position also supports homosexuals to be treated with dignity and respect. In much the same way that Jesus always “respected” sinners. But, he preached repentance. He didn’t want sinners - us - to go on sinning. I think you’re confusing respect for acceptance of lifestyle. You have no control, or fault, with the disorder you’ve been given. You did not choose that. But, what you CAN control/choose is behavior. An addict might not feel that they can get rid of the “attraction” to drugs. One might argue that this attraction to drugs is disordered. But, giving in to the attraction and acting upon it is totally different. Two different things: Urges and behaviors. The problem is not in the urge: It’s in the behavior. And that’s the point we’re making here. The push to legalize homosexual marriage is a push to allow one to behave according to their urges. And this is not healthy. If I acted on every urge that entered my mind, I would be in trouble. And that’s what a formed conscience does: helps one distinguish between what is appropriate behavior and what is inappororiate.

We’re ALL called to be more like Jesus. As Christians, that is our goal: Become like Jesus. If you believe that Jesus would want a homosexual person to continue sinning, this is where I would - in charity - tell you that it’s mistaken. And, unfortunately, many in the homosexual community are trying to justify their lifestyle as in conformity with Christian principles. And that is just not true.

And getting a government to legalize it - make it constitutionally “moral” - is not going to change the way God sees the issue. All authority comes from God. God’s son is Jesus. And they’re one in the same.

If you recall, there was the most famous trial in the history of humanity: The State v. Jesus, The Roman Empire v. the Son of God. In Pontious Pilate flexing his state given power over “citizen” Jesus, Jesus tells him, “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above” (John 19: 11). Don’t forget Who wins: Jesus. And don’t forget which empire fell: Rome. And Rome was converted!!!!

So, for the Christian, it’s God’s final Word that has ulitmate authority over us - not the State. And our point simply is that the US Constitution is a document rooted in Judeo-Christian principles. And there are activists who are constantly trying to thwart this document to fit non-Judeo-Christian principles under the guise of “inalienable Right.” The Constitution is in conformity with God’s laws. Man can’t change God’s laws. But he can try to change the Constitution. And that’s what’s going on here: Man trying to play God. And we all know how that ends up…

(George wrote - “By urging me to change a God given and inextricable part of me, you are being disrespectful - albeit unintentional.”)

It may (or may not be God-given) but you certainly do not have to act on it. You choose to act on your dysfunction.

(“In the debate over homosexuality, there is only one person who is susceptible to being harmed - the gay individual.”)

Not true. When Gay-marriage becomes law, it will destroy the definition of “marriage” for everyone. And there are additional health risks involved for you AND your partners. For instance “Gay Bowel Syndrome” a legitimate (yet rarely talked about) medical syndrome. In fact, the health risks for homosexual behavior is considerably higher than that of heterosexuals:

Homosexual Group Admits Health Risks of Homosexual Behavior

http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/05/homosexual-group-admits-health-risks-of-homosexual-behavior/

And we ALL pay for that.

(“Take for example a couple in which one or more of the partners is/are sterile, they are not forbidden from partaking in the pleasures of sexual intercourse and nor are they discouraged from adopting.”)

Even if a heterosexual couple is childless (by choice or circumstances) is irrelevant to the Natural Law argument. The heterosexual couple still fits into the natural paradigm as determined by our evolutionary biology and design. Homosexuality does not fit into any natural paradigm. It never has and it never will. It is the ultimate evolutionary dead-end. It is contrary to our biological design. And it is a statistical anomaly.

Homosexuality cannot procreate. It is an evolutionary dead end. Homosexual sex acts are not conducive to the natural design of the human body- it is a biological dead end. So what exactly makes you think it is natural? If you say that homosexual desire makes the condition “natural”, then I would say; does the natural disordered and destructive desire of an alcoholic to take a drink make the alcoholism any less dysfunctional?