There's a new link-up that's getting a ton of traction in the Catholic blog world: It's called What I Wore Sunday, and participants link to posts on their own blogs with pictures of what they wear to Mass (so far it's only women, but I know that Mark Shea is thinking about jumping in next week). This online party has grown by almost 500% in a little over a month, and has been getting a lot of buzz in certain corners of the blogosphere. What is it about this idea that people find so appealing? Kathryn Whitaker described it well over at Austin Catholic New Media when she said of her own participation in the virtual festival:
Ever since I started the link up, I've found myself consciously thinking about preparing myself for Mass, not just physically, but spiritually. There's been a bit more time to pray when we arrive, I've even scanned the Magnificat App on my iPhone for the readings. I can't recall the last time I did that. When you prepare the body, you also prepare the mind.
That last line jumped out at me, since it perfectly encapsulates my own experience. Though I haven't yet participated in What I Wore Sunday, I too have been drawn to reconsider my Sunday wardrobe choices lately.
It started a few months ago, when I was frantically digging through my closet, per my pre-Mass morning routine. I frowned at most of the choices, wondered once again how my closet could be so packed yet have so few things I actually want to wear in it, and then I paused when my hand rested on a nice blue sweater. It's one of my favorite tops, and works perfectly with a black skirt. It's classically stylish, modest, flattering, and I feel great every time I wear it. After examining it I pushed it aside with the thought:
I should save that one for a special occasion.
I ended up throwing on another outfit, some ill-fitting slacks and a blouse that mildly resembled a crumpled potato sack. I thought about that decision all the way to Mass. As much as I tried to tell myself that the clothes don't make the woman, I could not deny that my careless attire was dragging down my mood. And, more importantly, what message had I sent to myself by saying that I didn't want to wear a "special occasion" outfit to the holy sacrifice of the Mass?!
The decision came from a good place, I think. It was borne of a feeling of familiarity with Christ, and a reliance on God's fatherly love. The Lord knows that my life is totally chaotic, the thinking went. He's undoubtedly far more pleased by my efforts to focus on him during Mass than whether or not these pants look like I'm borrowing them from my grandfather.
There's certainly some truth to that, but as I fidgeted in the pew, pulling at the fabric on my shirt and adjusting and re-adjusting my pants, I discovered a problem with that line of thought: What I wear has a direct impact on my ability to focus on God during the Mass.
Once I thought about it, I was surprised that it had taken this so long to click. After all, we're the people of the Incarnation; Catholics understand better than anyone that we're not disembodied spirits, that the body and the soul are inextricably connected. It's almost heretical to imply that the way you clothe yourself has absolutely no impact on your inner life.
With this in mind, the following Sunday I pulled that blue sweater out of the closet, and paired it with my best skirt. Because I had decided ahead of time that I was going to look my best for Mass, I got up earlier to leave time to fix my hair and put on some makeup. Like Kathryn Whitaker, I found myself with a few extra moments before we left (a big change from the usual pre-Mass fire drill), and was able to look over the readings and prepare myself to receive the Eucharist.
At the Mass, the difference this new ensemble made was startling. In a surprising-but-not-surprising turn of events, I found that I paid more attention to God and less attention to myself now that I was dressed well. Like all good outfits, this one made me feel great, but it disappeared: It was modest enough that I didn't even think about what I was wearing, yet it was flattering enough that I could relax in knowing that I looked my best. With that frumpy outfit I'd worn the previous week, I was plagued by a vague but persistent urge to make ESP excuses to the people around me about how I looked: Despite what you might think, I am not headed to an MC Hammer costume contest after Mass, it's just that I don't have the budget to buy new pants that fit. Also, I hope y'all know that my upper torso is actually not shaped like a lumpy balloon; that's just some weird thing this old shirt is doing. Taking the extra time to choose my attire carefully reminded me of my dignity as a woman and a child of God; and, most powerfully, wearing my favorite pieces on Sunday hit home the message on both a conscious and a subconscious level that I would never find an occasion more special than this one.
I've been making an effort to dress well for Mass ever since then, with varying levels of success. It's never easy to get a family of seven out the door, and there are still plenty of mornings when I need to throw on the first thing I can grab while shouting over my shoulder for everyone to get in the car. But on the occasions that I do make the small sacrifices necessary to transform the way I look on the outside, I find that it transforms me on the inside as well.
View Comments
Comments
Join the Discussion
I just read that a Brooklyn woman posed as the aunt of one of the victims and set up a paypal account to supposedly raise money for funeral expenses. She is currently released on bond. I hope she gets the maximum 5-year sentence. I can’t imagine how anyone could try to profit from this horrific tragedy.
I read it. Thank you. Hope your Christmas went well. Happy New Year.
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/blessed-are-the-uncertain
Bill, if you are still out there, thought you might like this article,
nice reflection on uncertainty and believing.
Merry Christmas to you too, Bill (and everyone else)!
Merry Christmas,
In the wake of this terrible tragedy - I can just say this - God loves us so much that He sent His only begotten son into this mess—knowing just how very messy it is—there are atrocities that go on that we can’t even fathom - but God knows them all…and while we struggle to understand why this would happen to a group of little kids—it was not random…that boy that did the shooting knew what he was doing and acted on his free will…
But - maybe he didn’t really know - and that is where prayers for our enemies might have some benefit…
But Jesus, came into this world as an innocent baby in the wake of violence before, during, and after—and was subjected to this violence—because of his love…..in real time, he saved the world - but the world continues in sin because in real time, we have to learn about our free will and each of us, choose Him to be our rescuer…until then, there will be those who choose sin - because they have not yet, fully chosen Him.
We lose our babies, children, elderly to Heaven. On Earth, death is a casualty of the war against sin - we die so that we might live in eternity - as those die to fight for beliefs so the world here can be a better place.
And those that die - move on to a better place because of Jesus’ dying for His belief so that His world can be a better place—a place where there is rescuing from sin—He is the rescue—and our place is Heaven…a world without sin that we cannot enter as long as we want to stick to our sin…like a person might not be able to enter a fancy restaurant without a jacket- and when lent one - refuse it and choose not to go in to the fancy restaurant—or choose to put on that jacket and go in—
Jesus is the jacket to get us into the banquet—we are naked without Him and He is our choice. Belief, like disbelief, is a decision we make with our Will. Faith, is a gift from God.
Jesus was born into Hell on Earth…when we die, we are born into eternal bliss - we are born into what we are created for. If we could only see the joy that those children in that terrible earthly tragedy have been born into - we would see the tragedy of the boy who committed his sins and the sadness God has over his choice of sin—but the joy of those children will hopefully be showered upon their parents and bring them great peace—even while they will continue to suffer the loss of them all through their lives. Our suffering here on Earth is part of the casualty of this war between good and evil where Good is simple - Good is God and God is Love.
Not so hard to believe in goodness and in love -
Like Mr. Roger’s mother always said in the wake of tragedy—look around for the helpers - you will always see them in times like these…so while we are feeling bleak and hopeless, we can witness hope all around—hope for a better world and a world that our loved ones—many of them will make it to long before we do.
I’ve felt this peace and love that our lost babies went into. So maybe it is easy for me to belief…it was a beautiful gift. For others, they must choose to believe without these consolations. But my decision to believe and seek God came before “proof” of Him or miracles. I just had to decide and He came to me.
I pray for you all to have a Merry Christmas—in the wake of tragedy the gift of the baby Jesus is all the more poignant - it is because of Him we have any hope of seeing those little ones again in Heaven.
Hang in there Bill—God has great patience with all of us and your search will be fruitful and your lack of faith will be something that helps you later on….I trust that God will get you there and that He is using your lack of faith to grow something beautiful…a seed that will grow great fruit.
Merry Christmas Claire, Debbie, Ada, Anna Lisa and whoever else is out there.
Thanks Bill.
Claire: Thank you for your prayers. I appreciate it and I hope that you will be able to enjoy Christmas with your son. I know that you are a very caring and compassionate person with a child almost as old as those that were taken from us. If you change your mind and want to vent you know this is the place to do it.
Hi Bill,
I really can’t go there in terms of discussing this tragedy because I have been having a hard time holding it together since then, and I have to do what I need to do to keep my head above water for the sake of giving my family a good Christmas. But I wanted to let you know that I empathize with what you’re going through in processing all this. (I would say that I’m praying for you, and I am, but I know that sounds ironic based on the nature of your comment.)
I feel like I need to discuss my unbelief with some understanding believers. The tragedy in Connecticut and the subsequent multifaith prayer service have left me feeling alone in my unbelief. It seemed politically correct that when they mentioned the various faiths they included those with no beliefs. However, as the service proceeded, it was obvious that the main theme was trusting God and belief in an afterlife.
There are times when it is not appropriate for one to state one’s personal beliefs or the lack thereof. It appears that people are unwilling to accept two things: 1. The randomness of the event. 2. The finality of the result. I just think it is unhealthy for people to live in denial of these realities. Having said that, there really is nothing else to say. I would be terrible trying to comfort the parents. But it seems to me that the two most relevant questions that they have: “How could God let this happen?” and “Where are they now?” do not have any easy answers.
The book of Wisdom describes people like me (the unwise):
“3:1 But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them.
3:2 In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery:
3:3 And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace.
3:4 And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality.
3:5 Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.
3:6 As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.
3:7 The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds.
3:8 They shall judge nations, and rule over people, and their Lord shall reign for ever.
3:9 They that trust in him, shall understand the truth: and they that are faithful in love shall rest in him: for grace and peace is to his elect.
Yes, it’s horrifying. God help us.
Debbie and Ada: I appreciate your responses. The bottom line is that I continue to attend mass and Church and Knights of Columbus events and I will see where it all goes. I am watching the major news event today. What a disaster.
“Once the Church takes a position on something, that’s it. It can never be changed. There is no debate, no reconsideration, no dissent. I find it hard to condone such inflexibility and intolerance.”
You are right that the Church can only interpret and reinterpret a received faith. “Inflexible” maybe, but it has stood 2000 years as history ebbs and flows. The Church and her positions do change over the centuries but the core truths do not change.
I don’t think “intolerant” justly applies to the Church today. The message is love and forgiveness.
Ada: Since I have connections to an abortion and birth control and I have a gay son, I find the Church’s position to be particularly troubling. To me, the Church does not really represent any “God”. It acts as if it does but it doesn’t really.
If I were listen to the Church teaching, I would think of my life as sinful and immoral. But it really isn’t.
Once the Church takes a position on something, that’s it. It can never be changed. There is no debate, no reconsideration, no dissent. I find it hard to condone such inflexibility and intolerance.
Learning Truth is like a complicated math problem.
If we make a mistake in our understanding or in the way we live at any point in the problem, it will bring us (usually) down to the wrong answer. Then we have to go back through the problem and try to find out what part we got wrong so that we can erase it, correct it, and get down to the right answer. Study our faith or others and reading different points of view are all ways to “check our work” to see if we have the right answer. Our life experiences affect this math problem - so we can go back and erase what we’ve done wrong with Confession, and this helps reform our conscience so we can get that portion of the problem right and it will get us back to the correct final answer. The teacher grades us on our understanding at the end…and helps us to find our errors - with Love and Mercy.
People in the Catholic church have contributed immensely to our current scientific knowledge. Pope Benedict LOVES science. He has conferences on Faith and Reason. This is a great Pope for his reading because of his love of science, reason, and of course, his faith. He is a master theologian.
My husband, an astrophysicist, loves readings by Pope Benedict. Truly, you can love science and not fear its discoveries. The CCC even discusses this - Catholics can love their faith and science both. Faith and Reason go hand in hand…my daughter says “My faith informs my reason and my reason informs my faith” The Catholic teachings are amazing!!!
Good to hear other views—my science, logical, and knowledge loving husband has read some of what you’ve read, studied other religions, cultures, etc…its such a great way to know from where others are coming.
His best advice would be to truly know Catholic teaching from her written sources—read it for yourself - lots of Catholics out there teaching things that the Catholic church doesn’t actually teach.
Bill. thanks for your honesty and openness. From your comments I seem to sense that your unbelief did not start with the Church’s theology but with her social teachings, abortion, artificial birth control, homosexuality etc. Being an intellectually honest person you followed the logic that if she was wrong about these issues how could one assent to those theological teachings that required faith.
A lot of “modern” Catholics would live with this duality, ignoring the social teachings and keep the church and its faith as a warm fuzzy in their lives. I assume your intellectual integrity would not allow you to do that. That is why I would recommend studying the source documents and reasoning of the church’s social teaching. They are not denying science, or hating homosexuals, or waging a war on women. Quite the contrary they have the best welfare of all in mind.
Debbie,
First and foremost, I refuse to believe that what I believe has any impact on how long I live, i.e., temporal vs. eternal. I’ve already accepted the permanence of death and I have no problem with that. Secondly, the books that I have been reading have been based on scientific knowledge that is accepted by everyone (except for those who do not accept it because of religious beliefs such as creationists). I’ve spent 60 years of my life listening to one side of the story. I don’t think it has been unreasonable to spend a year listening to the other side. Okay, maybe I didn’t spend the whole 60 is listening to the church’s side of the story, but a good portion of it anyway.
Most of what I have learned has to do with the beginning of the universe and the evolution of man. The fact that this contradicts the Bible is not a dealbreaker for me. My real problem is the lack of ability for the Catholic Church to adapt to new knowledge and ideas. Another problem would be giving up control of my life to the “will of God”. There is too much randomness in life for me to leave my life to chance.
Despite all this, I am impressed by people’s faith and I will continue to learn from them. I will also see what I can do about the reading materials that I select. I did read a book called True Reason which rebuts many of the views of the new atheists. It did a good job of rationalizing Christian beliefs, but I saw flaws in their arguments. Maybe I will take out a book by the Pope next time I go to the library.
Bill, read and study all you want of other religions, but as a cradle Catholic - I would encourage you to be sure you fully know what your Catholic faith has to say about itself as well before you make your final decisions. If the Catholic faith is true and you reject it- you have a lot more to lose (like eternal life) than if athiesm is true (and you die and get buried after living maybe 88 years). I think that alone, makes Catholicism warrant more research.
You don’t want to read the pope’s works because it might affect your reasoning - but you will read all sorts of athiestic viewpoints and why do you think they have any authority or corner on the truth? They are human as well. You limit yourself with your bias against reading from Catholic Church teaching and from the Pope. Again, we have had many bad popes—very, very, human popes - and yet the faith and morals teachings remained the same - how is it that they were unable to change the faith? I find that incredible given how quickly faiths have changed in other christian denominations…there is a greater authority at work in the Catholic Church than a mere human.
Thank you. Coming from you, that means a lot. I appreciate the input from you personal experiences.
You don’t have to rationalize your life, Bill. I’m sure that you have led a very ethical life. Like all of us, you’ve probably made your share of mistakes. That’s just part of what makes us human. There’s no need for you to rationalize any of it. And other than your lack of faith, I’m sure you are a perfectly good Catholic.
I’m sorry Claire. You are right. Just as I said that some people don’t reason so much as rationalize their faith, I can see that I am not reasoning at times and just rationalizing my life. I guess I want to have my cake and eat it too. I want to be a part of the Catholic Church but probably for the wrong reasons. And I don’t want to do the work that it takes to be a good Catholic.
There’s no science to back what up? That a 10-week fetus is a human being? There’s ample science to back that up. A 10-week fetus has a beating heart, moves all over the place, and has a formed image of a baby. I have not only seen a 10-week old fetus on an ultrasound screen, but I have held a younger fetus in my hands when a patient miscarried it into the toilet and I had to retrieve it. I didn’t have an emotional attachment to her baby, but that didn’t make the baby any less human.
“Study the faith from those that know it most, not from those that want to tear you away from it. The Pope probably knows best what the faith teaches…”
Therein lies the problem. The Pope is the ultimate authority on what the faith teaches. Anyone who disagrees with him disagrees with the faith. No one seems to want to admit that the Pope is human. Those who write or teach church doctrine are not using reason so much as rationalizing that which has already been stated by their predecessors. I don’t want to forfeit my own reasoning ability by reading their works.
As far as taking notes for your friend, I can’t see how that would in anyway make you culpable. And I have had to take a long hard look at what a 10 week old fetus really is. I could see where a woman would have an emotional attachment to it. But that is all it would be, an emotional attachment. There is no science to back it up.
Bill - Reading the greats of the Catholic Church - Bible (study it through Jeff Cavins or Scott Hahn), Early Church Fathers, Pope Benedict’s works, works by the Saints, Divine Intimacy (liturgical reads for each day -Awesome!!),—- is very convincing as well… if you want to regain your faith - change what you read :-).
Study the faith from those that know it most, not from those that want to tear you away from it. The Pope probably knows best what the faith teaches…
Isn’t it amazing that throughout history we’ve had some good popes and bad popes but the bad popes never changed the faith and morals teachings…but look at any other bad ruler - they immediately change the laws on morals. I find that very interesting. The Catholic teachings really do seem to be protected…the gates of Hell do not prevail against it.
Claire - a friend of mine had an abortion in college - I didn’t know it but she asked me to take notes for her in class while she went to a doctor’s appointment. I was pro-choice at the time. When I learned later that she had an abortion I was devasted - seriously - I was crying uncontrollably - my Catholic boyfriend at the time came over to try to console me. I felt like I had facilitated it because I made it easy for her to get to her appointment by covering her class. If I had said no—would this straight A student have gone?... Anyways, I was surprised at the grief I felt for her baby. I realized at that point that it was a loss to the whole world and became pro-life at that point. Anyways - I have been very pro-life since—but became Catholic years later and praying at clinics years after that…we had just started doing that when we started losing our babies.
Love being pregnant and seeing those ultrasounds—though the last ones have been painful ultrasounds because that is when we would discover that our babies were not growing. :-( Still, ultrasounds are amazing inventions.
Debbie: I love Abby Johnson! God bless you for your prayerful presence at abortion clinics. I’m so sorry that you have lost two sets of twins. I was solidly prolife before my miscarriages (and I’m sure you were, too). Sure, seeing my babies’ tiny heartbeats and watching them flip around during ultrasounds confirmed my pro-life views, but those views were present before I ever got pregnant.
In 2009, when my faith was riding high after Cursillo, I said rosaries with friends at an under the radar abortion clinic and inside a prison with the inmates. After extensive reading of books by atheists like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Carrier, etc., my beliefs did a 180. If you don’t want to lose your faith, don’t do what I did. They are very convincing. The abortion has had very little impact on my faith.
I miss the days when people were more careful about what they wore to Mass. I realize that styles have changed, and the price of new clothing has gone up. But if people would realize that they are going to a “wedding feast” (Mass); and if we went to a regular wedding we would definitely put on our best outfit to look nice on the outside, brush/comb our hair, take a bath/shower - in general, look neat and clean. But that is the outside of our bodies. It is also important to be “neat and clean” on the inside (our soul) which can only be clean by going to Confession/Reconciliation.
I wish people would stop wearing shorts, low-cut blouses, flip-flops, you know where I am going with this. They don’t seem to know they are in God’s house (church), and should dress accordingly. God loves us no matter what, but we are there to celebrate the sacrifice of His Son Jesus and to receive His Body and Blood in the Eucharist. Arriving a little early gives us the time to prepare our minds and hearts for such a celebration. It’s not that hard to do; it just takes times to get into the habit of preparation and being there every Sunday.
Abby Johnson in her book, Unplanned, writes well about her perception of people who prayed outside of clinics. It is amazing how the simple presence at a clinic and quiet or sung prayers can stir up such anger in pro-abortion escorts especially. But many a time, it stirs the heart of the one going in for an abortion and they change their minds. It is a life or death decision that warrants time to think about both sides…it is hard to watch girls being pushed in, crying, by their boyfriend, parents, whomever…There could not possibly be anything more horrendous than being forced to have an abortion- to end the life of your child. I know not every woman that goes for an abortion feels coerced, but there are plenty who do. And plenty who feel it is their only option…it is the goal of most of the Catholics that pray outside of the clinics to help the woman find other options and resources to help her.
Also, for me, when I am at the clinics praying, I feel like I am there for the baby as much as for everyone else…praying that little soul into Heaven - it is the only ceremony there is likely to be for that baby - no burial, no funeral, - It is a way for me to say - hey, I know you are there and love you. Someday, I hope to meet them in Heaven.
There are abrasive and hurtful people at the clinics that only stir up hatred—I see them less and less, but yes, agree that there are helpful and hurtful ways to be present at the clinics. At least when people are present it says to those going for the abortions—something big is happening here - hopefully they will take time to seriously consider…there is no going back. I’ve known women who’ve had abortions and it changes their lives forever. Forgiveness and mercy are so crucial here. Sometimes, it is 20 years later that she finally begins to cope with it (and it does a number on their faith/beliefs, etc)- I guess that is why I challenge you to think about how this might be affecting your faith.
Bill: you make a good point. There are certain pro-life protest approaches that are completely unhelpful. And those approaches take credibility away from the movement as a whole.
Debbie: yeah. I just don’t have your kind of faith. But I am impressed by how well you present your beliefs. I will take some time to ponder it and see where I can apply it in my life.
Hi Debbie,
I’m on the road but I will get back to you as soon as I can thank you for your input. A lot of what you’re saying has to be taken on faith. I can only take so much on faith before I start looking for some evidence. I need to read what you said more than once.
I’m talking about what was in the news at the time with people protesting outside of abortion clinics. Hopefully she found the right people to help her. She got married right away so maybe everything turned out okay.
Actually, the pro-life movement (at least in the Catholic church) offers much compassion to post-abortive women.
No one needs to blame anyone. I blame myself for my part. But it takes two to tango. It was just an unfortunate event for her more than anyone. Pro-lifers don’t make it easy for people like her to forgive themselves. I wish there had been a way that I q Yeah.
could have consoled her but I was off to other things including meeting my wife.
I agree with Claire there. We do grow and learn and do things differently as we grow in responsibility - and then we can help touch others with that wisdom…but what is it all for if we just die?
I just heard a story at Mass about a man who came to the US from Africa.
He’d heard about pollution over here and when he arrived here in winter he said “I didn’t realize the pollution here was so bad - all the trees are dead” To him - he could only see death (and that is what we see when a loved one dies) - but it wasn’t as it seemed…in faith, we believe in the resurrection of our trees each spring. In faith, Catholics believe in the resurrection of the dead to new life through witnessing it in Jesus and in the miracles from His life. We can’t see the air, yet in faith, we know it is there…God is as present as the air we breath. He gifts us with each breath thanks to Jesus. We all should have died when Adam committed that first sin - Jesus’ resurrection was the mercy and forgiveness that allowed Adam to breathe another breath. It is all so magnificent but the lack of belief in supernatural is just too hard to believe. There is too much in our physical laws of nature, math, science, and logic that point to divine intervention. If all things in science move towards chaos, what gets us all back together - things back in order? We have to physically do this - so we have power over the natural to some degree - wouldn’t it be easy to see that God who created all would have this same power and more so? And there are so many rules to natural law and physics—would it be so hard to see that there would also be these similar types of rules that govern a person’s happiness or holy perfection? The Church just informs us of these laws the same way math, logic, and science inform of theirs. NO matter how we want to defy the law of gravity, like you said, we aren’t able to do it…I’m not so sure the Church is unwise in its unyielding teaching in the areas of faith and morals. We can’t deny or defy the truth. Even with an athiestic world-view, living the life of experience - it is hard not to agree that the social laws of the Church in the area of faith and morals hold a great deal of wisdom. Mistakes from our past - had we lived differently and made decisions (oddly enough) in line with Church teaching, things would be different. Not having been with someone before marriage would have prevented a whole scenario of fathering a child with a person you did not love. But, that mistake is redeemable through Jesus. We do need saving. And we have a savior and I do believe we have to believe that. (Of course, God judges the heart and there is great mercy in this teaching of Purgatory where our erroneous thoughts can be put back in order)...
God loves you - He is working on something big with you. Your experiences in life will help heal others. In our love and compassion for others, we want to allow wrong things to be right - because we fear that the “rules” hurt them. But God forgives all and when we see “right” we can help lead others to that joy. This is the area where the Church informs and stays within the laws of logic in her consistency in teaching about natural law while expressing the hope of God acting outside of this nature to do the impossible - erase our wrongs, reorder the world to right, and enable us to live forever. I wish I was a better theologian - but this is all God’s given me at this point. I pray the Holy Spirit in you translates this better than I’ve written.
Yes, our opinions in that area do differ. But I just wanted to make sure that you didn’t think I blamed you or was judging you about that situation.
Claire: I understand that. Our differences center on just what a ten week old fetus really is. Is it a person or a potential person? Does it have a soul yet or ever? Should abortion at ten weeks be legal, etc.
If we have a soul at all, then when do we get it? Is it prudent to make the decision about when a soul comes into the body since there is no way to prove it? This may be your challenge in belief about souls at all but if there is a soul, the safest is to assume it is there upon conception. When Mary was just barely pregnant - Elizabeth’s baby lept in her womb in the presence of Jesus in Mary’s womb. Certainly, His divinity and manhood were already present.
Just be cautious that you aren’t peeling off all the layers of belief and faith necessary to not have to see your baby as a child with a soul. You’ll have to peel off too much. Rather, trust in God’s forgiveness and the hope that you will see your baby’s immortal soul again in Heaven. You have Confessed your sins - they are forgiven. You must forgive yourself. And God’s love is perfectly capable of anything - He can forgive it all…
I think women feel the loss deeper because we felt pregnant, hormonal, etc. We also have 5 children who all started at the same place—and I know what I have lost… watching the kids develop and change - has been so illuminating. Their personalities have been the same from the time I first felt them kicking in the womb. I can only surmise that they were this way from the beginning. And when they grow and change so quickly through adolesence, they change so much - into adult bodies - but they are the same “person” with the same heart, etc. as they were just months prior when they were still kids.
I sort of feel like your struggle - though 20 years down the road - may stem back to that lost child. Maybe you can find your child and your faith this Advent as you await the Christ Child. This could be a block to your faith. What do you think would happen if you acknowledged that the fetus you lost was a child?
I keep meaning to go read that other comment section and blog…I’m sorry to be getting into this again when you’ve said you don’t want to go there again.
It has been nice talking about our babies—we lost the first set of twins on Dec. 4th - my husband was doing a talk on the Star of Bethlehem which signaled to the world that Jesus was born—and I had just lost our babies to Heaven. It just amazes me. Anyways, I of course, relive this every year - I will never forget them and never completely be free of the pain of losing them - but that in itself is a joy because I know it means they were loved as all life should be. I think maybe you love your baby too. It is at least a joy to know that you haven’t forgotten. There is a reason for that and what place could that reason be except in the supernatural? Something that just extends beyond? There was something beyond the big bang - what started it all? We will someday find out—can’t wait!! :-)
Bill: I just want to clarify that I have never condemned you regarding your ex-girlfriend’s abortion, or blamed you for it. I know that you wish you had handled the situation differently, and we have all made mistakes in the past that we wish we could take back.
Claire and Debbie: Thank you. I do get inspiration from your faith and I enjoy conversing with you especially regarding your miscarriages and the abortion. Under Jennifer’s “Why I Lost Faith in the Pro-choice Movement”, I argued with others about the rights of the fetus. I don’t want to own up to the whole idea of having caused the taking of a life that had any value. Woman who have miscarriages place a higher value on that life than I do.
GregB: I understand your argument that there is natural and supernatural but I see no proof of the latter.
Bottom line is that I don’t believe I have a soul that entered me at conception and will live on after death.
Debbie: Yes, I lost a set of identical twins 4 years ago. They died around 11 weeks, and I found out at 13 weeks. We adopted our son 4.5 months later. He was born about 6 weeks before my twins’ due date, but since they were a very high-risk twin, chances are they would have been early anyway. So I had a baby in my arms at the time that I was supposed to. I still grieve for them, but I wouldn’t trade my son for anything.
I see what you mean, and I’m glad it works for you, but I just don’t feel it. My rule is to wear something clean and ironed, period. Oh - and no loud colors or text that might distract others.
Call it the childhood memory of having to wear starchy, scratchy clothes to church, year after year. I don’t want to go back there.
Claire - did you lose twins as well? Hard stuff. But much to look forward to someday :-) We feel like we get some great intercessory prayer from our babies…it is strange - they seem to listen to their mom even from Heaven.
Bill - I agree with what Claire said about your comments.
Annalisa: your attitude toward the child you’re carrying is beautiful. I wish I had had that perspective when I was carrying my twins. They were so high risk, and I had so much anxiety about whether they would make it, that I didn’t enjoy the brief time I had them with me.
Bill: I have noticed that the timestamp on these comments is actually an hour later than EST. For example, I just posted a comment at 10:47 pm est, but it is time stamped for 11:47. Anyway, speaking for myself, I don’t think there’s anything wrong about you posting comments about your unbelief. I would feel differently if you posted insulting comments, but merely talking about how your beliefs (or lack thereof) have evolved is not something that I find offensive. Like I said, it would be different if you did it in an insulting way.
ill S:
“Cafeteria Catholics believe that they can pick and choose between their personal beliefs and the teachings of the Catholic Church, and seem to place more value on their personal beliefs.”
What do you have if not your personal beliefs? Why would anyone want to put Church teachings before their own personal beliefs? If it could, the Catholic Church would exercise total control over everything people say, do and think. It would never ever encourage people to think for themselves. It is the freethinkers of the world who have made the changes necessary for people to enjoy their individual freedoms. At one time, it was a sin for people to vote in the Italian elections.
As far as being a cafeteria Catholic, that’s the only way I will remain a member of the Catholic community. You lose so-called cafeteria Catholics, and you might as well close up the churches because there won’t be any money to support them. I’m not going to give up my Catholic social life based on the insistence by extremists that I bow in compliance with every Church teaching. My Catholic friends don’t do it and I’m certainly not going to do it. If you want a good example, just look at birth control. Most people I know have two or three children at most. Very few people have more. And I don’t think the ones who do necessarily have a better sex life.
I’m trying hard to be a part of the existing Catholic community without making my life absolutely miserable. People like you, GregB, are not making it any easier.
*************************************************************************************
In my world view there is an objective supernatural order and an objective natural order. The scientific method depends upon there being an objective natural order, otherwise scientific experimental data would be so much gibberish that no researcher could place any trust in. It is my understanding that experimental data is the ground truth of science. I have a world view that allows me to learn things.
In the supernatural realm the way that we gain understanding is by God disclosing to us the objective order of the supernatural realm. God is not a supreme particle or a supreme force of nature, He is the Supreme Being. Pagan idolatry makes gods of the forces of nature. Because God is the Supreme Being the way that we know Him is through His Word. In the Catholic Church Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God. Christ’s ministry is totally selfless. He emptied Himself to take on our humanity. He does nothing in His Own right, He does the will of the Father.
When Christ gave His teaching about the Eucharist, about eating His Body and drinking His Blood, most of His followers left. He did not change His teaching.
The Catholic Church does have a spiritual version of the experimental knowledge of God. That is the way of mysticism. It is also known as Contemplative Prayer. Genuine Contemplative Prayer is focused on God, not on self.
JPBinCO: Well said!
I have a hard time with dressing up in general, after having 6 kids, losing and gaining weight several times, etc.—I am making peace with my older mom’s body now. However, I like to dress up! The difficulty is, I also do not spend much money on clothing for myself, simply because I can’t find much that looks good on this “new” body! And no, I don’t mean form-fitting. I dress simply and modestly, but I’m short, and it’s very difficult to find attractive clothing that actually fits! I have my standard daily “uniform”—jeans, long-sleeved shirts and vests or sweaters (I live in CO—cold!), and comfy walking shoes. I don’t wear those on Sundays to Mass, but my Sunday attire isn’t particularly fabulous either. My daughter loves dressing up, so she knows what to do. My boys also dress up in khakis, nice shirts or sweaters and dress shoes. I wish I could make the leap to find a few nicer things for myself *somewhere.* Just remember, some of us are trying, but not doing so well! I have kids from 9 through 22 years old, and yes, some pieces in my wardrobe have not changed in all those years….It really is what’s inside that counts. That said, there is very little excuse for lack of modesty or cleanliness (well, here in CO, sometimes people end up at 5 pm Sat/Sun Mass in hiking clothes, and a tad grimy). I think the two key things to remember are modesty and neatness.
No offense taken- appreciate your honesty. It was nice talking with you. Will pray that you find what you are hoping to find. Confession is an awesome Sacrament. If you feel more responsible now than when you are younger - there is evidence that you are growing in wisdom.
The timestamp on these posts is still on daylight savings time. I posted my last comment while watching the Patriots crush the Texans last night. And I know it wasn’t after midnight. My last statement about finding it hard to believe because there is so much to believe has stuck in my mind. Trying to get my faith back has been like trying to hit a moving target. Every time I think I’m starting to be willing to concede enough to consider myself a Catholic, something new is added to believe. What you believe has a direct effect on your attitude and behavior. But it doesn’t save or condemn you. No one should believe anything just because that’s what you’re supposed to do as a Catholic. Ultimately, you should try to find evidence for as many beliefs as you can. Even then, there will be things you believe that can’t be proven.
I think I will refrain from making any more comments based on the fact that this is a Catholic website and it isn’t right to post anti-Catholic comments. My disbelief in the supernatural puts me at odds with beliefs that are cherished by others on this thread. Rather than stating opinions that I can’t back up, I prefer to remain silent. I want to thank everyone for their insightful comments. And I hope I haven’t offended anyone.
What you are saying isn’t totally correct because as a Catholic I was able to go to confession. I actually feel more responsible for my actions now than when I was able to confess my sins. I don’t choose to not believe so I can do whatever I want. I just find it hard to believe because there is just so much to believe.
Anna lisa - Blessing for sure :-) Enjoy every moment.
Bill - yeah, I don’t like your opinion on that topic either but will not say more except that in a lot of ways, I think your decision to not believe in the supernatural is just more convenient than anything else. Things would have to be different for you if the Catholic teaching is correct. I imagine in many cases - it is just much easier to believe what allows a person to live as they please. But that is what the gift of free will is all about. I do think I would live differently if I didn’t put on the Catholic conscience. I don’t think any other way of living would be as joyful as when I live walking with Christ. Still, how would I have known if I hadn’t tried on the Catholic life? Praise be to God that I did. Praise be to God.
Oh Thank you for your prayers! I hope to be able to tell the kids in a few weeks…:)
@Claire, yes, we had only lost our last little one, six weeks before. I have a completely different attitude now, than when I was younger. I simply trust God, and only see this child as a blessing. Even if he passes on, I will be at peace, thanking God for the blessing of his life no matter what the earthly outcome.
“Consider (please understand I am coming to you with this advice as a mom whose lost 5—who died before they were 10 weeks old even though I was pregnant for longer) accepting the child you lost as a child and pray about whether it was a boy or girl and name him/her.”
I really don’t want to do that. This is one of those “can I still be a Catholic and not believe this?” Unlike you (Debbie) and others who have miscarried, I have had no emotional attachment to a ten week old fetus. The idea of a soul entering a fertilized egg doesn’t make sense to me and I believe that you grow into being a person. I already took a lot of abuse for this opinion on the other thread and don’t want to go through it again.
“If that girl aborted without your consent and you were upset about it - ask yourself why - if it wasn’t a child to you - why would you be upset that she aborted it?”
I had just graduated from a Catholic high school and thought all kind of terrible things.
“And why would she want to get back at you?”
Because I had already stopped calling her before I knew she was pregnant. And I was away when she went to New York with her mother for the abortion. And I didn’t want to see her anymore.
“My question is why don’t they join the Episcopal church. It would seem more fulfilling, with like-minded congregations and pension plans. Realistically do they anticipate reconciliation with the church in their lifetimes?”
Probably because they believe in the real presence in the Eucharist.
“Per your disbelief in the supernatural what is your view on near death experiences, unexplained healings and other phenomenon that science cannot yet explain. I’m sure delusion or trickery can account for some but not all of the miraculous.”
Even if something turns out to be true, I don’t believe that I have to believe anything without proof. I don’t believe in any penalty for not believing. That’s just a threat to make people believe things.
Bill, thanks for your reply. I guess there is a strong cultural identity (like being Jewish) that goes beyond religious adherence or belief. I understand the social aspect for semi or un believers.
I was curious about those female priests though. They are strong believers and their theology is at odds with the church so much they are excommunicated. My question is why don’t they join the Episcopal church. It would seem more fulfilling, with like-minded congregations and pension plans. Realistically do they anticipate reconciliation with the church in their lifetimes? I’m not judging their belief right or wrong, just wondering why they don’t move on like other people in other denominations do.
Per your disbelief in the supernatural what is your view on near death experiences, unexplained healings and other phenomenon that science cannot yet explain. I’m sure delusion or trickery can account for some but not all of the miraculous.
Congratulations Anna lisa for baby number 14!! We will pray for you as well. And Bah Humbug to Advanced Medical Age!
Anna Lisa: Congratulations. I hope your pregnancy goes well.
I know what confirmation is supposed to be. It is the kids themselves that see it as a sort of fish or cut bait point. If they have had enough of the Catholic faith, this is the point where they no longer have to go to CCD or to church if they were actually going before that. I was actually talking about the diversely of the Catholics that I know.
So I guess that I settle for the base camp. While others make the ascent. That’s a good analogy. I hadn’t thought of it like that. When I think about it, I guess it is true that my church has become more of a social club than a house of worship. I guess it sounds terrible, but that’s why I want to remain a member. Sorry. That seems to be the way I see things right now.
We are so, so indoctrinated by our society. Even Catholic culture cannot overcome this indoctrination. One year, we took a “sabbatical” as a family. This involved homeschooling, turning off the TV, and only reading “faithful to the Magisterium” Catholic teaching. We basically took off secular society and put on the Catholic Church teaching and culture. Completely. We didn’t hold back anything. No cafeteria dessert-only munching but full-fledged banquet veggies and all. We changed immeasurably.
Just watched for Greater Glory - there was a Catholic athiest on there and much of the story was his…you might like it from that standpoint. His struggles, etc.
Consider (please understand I am coming to you with this advice as a mom whose lost 5—who died before they were 10 weeks old even though I was pregnant for longer) accepting the child you lost as a child and pray about whether it was a boy or girl and name him/her. Just consider it. If that girl aborted without your consent and you were upset about it - ask yourself why - if it wasn’t a child to you - why would you be upset that she aborted it? And why would she want to get back at you? You don’t have to answer me - answer these questions for yourself. On some level - it seems to me that your heart knows it is a child so in your conscience - it would be good to acknowledge it. God wants to grow your faith I know it in my heart and He is taking you back to this. We don’t graduate at confirmation…far from it. We are in it for life. And when we “get it” WOW!!!! What joy awaits! You are studying for your confirmation now - the time when we all have to really ask ourselves - do we really believe this?! God will show you yes!! if you open yourself up to it.
That’s awesome news, Annalisa. I can understand your concern about the miscarriage risk (and you had a miscarriage earlier this fall, didn’t you?). But it’s a great sign that you’re nearing the end of the first trimester. I will pray for you and your baby.
Claire, yes, I’m 9.5 weeks along :). When one has “advanced maternal age”, it is *one day at a time*. I look at every day as a gift with this new little soul, and entrust him or her to God’s providence. The cold hard facts are a 50% miscarriage rate.
Bill, I’m thinking that *death* is a little more like graduation. Confirmation is the beginning of a process of stepping up to the plate, and starting to “own” what we confirm as “adults”. I’m not too sure there are many “adult” American kids…
The mystics were helpful in describing our ascent toward God, as a kind of scaling of a mountain. All of us are tempted to try to stake out some space and get comfortable in a good spot,on a grassy knoll top in the foothills, but our consciences reproach us. It seems to me that you want the comfort and familiarity of your “home” in the church, but you’re afraid that if you truly join in with the family, you will have too much asked of you. The only problem is that your position is untenable. You know it. But you’ve worked with your balancing act for so long that even *this* is familiar to you. Evil is far too cunning to reveal itself for what it really is. It’s like that fake food and drink they use for commercials: the ice is plastic and the delectable looking food has a thick layer of glue on it; but because we are used to the taste and texture, we stick with a flawed version. God continues to knock at the door of our hearts, because he sees us starving on our empty calories. Would a Father give his son a stone or a snake if he asked for food?
Make that love it or leave it not love it I’ll leave it.
Ada: good question. As a cradle Catholic, my whole life has revolved around the Catholic Church. It would be like asking a Jew who has doubts about his faith to stop being a Jew. The other thing is that there is the Pope and the bishops and then there are the priests and the parishes. It’s like management and workforce. The NFL owners and the players union. I have good relations with every kind of Catholic from the one that goes to mass every day to the one that doesn’t go at all. They all get married in the church and they all have their kids christened. The kids all grow up going to CCD and receiving confirmation. Confirmation is more like a graduation. You can grow up to have any faith you want but you have to be confirmed first. It’s like when people say this is America love it I’ll leave it. Julia Sweeney who used to be on Saturday night live is atheist but she calls herself a cultural Catholic. I’m not even sure I will end up an atheist in the end. There are too many questions left unanswered. Protestants rely too much on the Bible. To me, Catholic tradition has more to offer than the Bible. The words of someone like Debbie are comforting to me even if I don’t strictly believe everything she is saying. Her faith is inspiring and it makes me want to have the same. My reason and logic have not been exhausted. I am leaning toward believing in God as Creator. And the concept of the supernatural has not been totally refuted in my mind. So even if I bitch and moan about Catholic Church I don’t really have a suitable alternative.
Hi Bill,
I hope you don’t feel ganged up on. I appreciate your candor. I have a question and definitely don’t treat it as a personal question, probably the more general and abstract your reply the better.
Why are cradle Catholics so reluctant to leave the church when they don’t agree with any the Church stands for? Protestants are constantly moving around to different churches that more align with their beliefs. But there is a built in wall preventing them from considering the Catholic Church, like a great divide. Do cradle Catholics feel this wall from the other side and that is why they don’t try other churches but just hang on in unhappy dissent?
For example the group of women that were ordained as “Catholic” priests. The Episcopal church seems a perfect fit for them: women priests and bishops, apostolic succession, and a liberalness of doctrine that would allow any range of belief, etc. I know there are cultural and family ties just like with protestants, but converts to Catholicism have to climb a stiff hill to join, but all that’s required of a convert to other Christian churches is just to show up, and poof you are a member.
We were both working on the responses at the same time. I sent mine after you sent yours. The rosary issue occurred a little over a year ago. The abortion happened 40 years ago. We all deal with things in different ways. Whatever works is good.
No I didn’t. I discussed all this in detail under another article on this blog (why I lost my faith in the pro-choice movement). I don’t really want to get into it again. As you know, I have come to disbelieve in the supernatural. In addition to that, the 10-week-old fetus was never a child to me. I know we have diametrically opposed worldviews on this matter. You have found a way to deal with tragedy and that is good. The girl that had the abortion subsequently got married and I never heard from her again. Last I heard from her she sent me a newspaper article describing her wedding probably as a way to get back at me. I was only 20 at the time and a lot has changed since then. I hope she found a way to get over it.
Bill,
How does the timing of your thoughts about the Rosary compare with you losing your baby? Mary lost her baby too - and not by her choice. But it was our choice to kill him. But, she forgives us for the brutal murder of her son- and she loves us - we are her children. She knew that God was in control - even letting Jesus die- but she never lost her faith, never blamed God. His death served a purpose greater than living another day, it was a death that helped us to live. Mary, even while her heart was pierced - knew this and her love for us was bigger than our crimes. When God allows death and suffering at our own hands or the hands of others - it is not so that we suffer the pains of punishment but so that we can learn forgiveness, His love, and so that we can grow in holiness, right conscience, and live with Him forever in a world that does not suffer.
Mary, is who can help you to understand the loss of your child at the hands of another - and she can teach you how to forgive those that took your child’s life. She can also help you forgive God for allowing it to happen. Maybe you don’t blame Him—but I did. I knew He could have made it go a different direction. I trusted Him. My prayers were not answered and I struggled with my faith. But I persevered out of stubbornness and He showed up and strengthened my faith more and showed me the love of the Father, the love of a Mother, and the love of a Son to do what the father Wills- and He showed me the Holy Spirit that lives in all of us. It is a free gift I give to Jesus to be obedient to the teachings of the Church who has shown me that her wisdom really is the path to true happiness.
Tell a priest all of this at Confession and then go to Holy Communion and receive Jesus - your baby is with Him. The closer to draw to Him - the closer you are to your mom, your baby, and all whom you’ve lost. It is real and this is the Truth. Ask Mary, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit to show you - they will. Ask your baby to pray for you-he/she will. Meanwhile, I will keep you in my prayers. There is nothing more painful than losing a child. Nothing more hope-filled than to know you will see them again :-)
Dear Bill,
I am so sorry to hear about your loss. The night after my first miscarriage I had terrible nightmares - and I talked about them with my husband. We had been involved in praying at abortion clinics in the prior months. We’d even spiritually adopted a set of twins that were scheduled to be aborted. I don’t know what happened with those babies but somehow wonder if the loss of ours could be somehow redemptive for the woman who took the life of hers.
Anyways, my husband suggested that maybe God was showing me what the conscience of a woman who electively aborted her baby might feel like. That is a type of fear and grief that I would not want to ever experience. It was enough grief just to suffer the loss without any intent on my part.
The morning after that dream I felt so miserably sad. Everything felt cold and dark in my mind. The dark of death and finality. I went to the church and prayed by the Tabernacle. I was still hoping that maybe one of the twins survived…I prayed until I felt some kind of peace but I was still wrestling with God over this. As I was leaving the church, I looked up and saw a stained glass window. It was a rendition of Jesus with all the children. At that moment - I felt the words “Let the children come to me” - I felt the words as if they were wrapping themselves around me and I felt this peace - their peace- like no other peace. I could feel where they were going…at that moment, I was able to spiritually let them go. It didn’t end my suffering or grief about losing them but it gave me such a sense of peace and joy about their happiness. Does that make sense?
Earlier - before we lost them, A friend had said I could pray to God about their sex and names. I thought that was interesting but I prayed anyways. In a special way, God answered both prayers. I don’t know how to explain how God works and why He would allow this kind of suffering except that through the suffering, I felt God’s presence more intensely than ever before. I could see the darkness of some who choose to abort their babies and yet, could see the forgiveness that God has for them. That pain of those nightmares was so intense- I wouldn’t want anyone to suffer like that - and neither does Jesus - which is why He suffered. When we give our suffering to God - He changes it. It is still suffering but it is sweet suffering. The kind of suffering He suffering for love of us. Not a hopeless suffering. Both painful but with different aftermaths. Not the suffering that buries babies in the ground never to be seen again but a suffering that buries babies in the ground while knowing that their souls live on in peace and joy in Heaven - ever able to pray for us and waiting to meet us again someday. God will forgive the mother of your baby if she seeks it. And He will forgive you and change your suffering if you give it to Him. Did you name your baby?
Please disregard what I just said. It was an insensitive remark. As some of you know, a child that I fathered was aborted in the 10th week without my prior knowledge or consent. That affects some of my views on abortion. It’s all been discussed under a thread on the topic not on how to dress for mass.
So if I were a pregnant woman, it would be okay for God to end the pregnancy but not me.
Anna Lisa, are you pregnant again? Congratulations!
Oh, and in a nod to the topic of the thread—I got an awesome airbrush tattoo on my ankle at the party last night. It will last for a few weeks. I was a little bummed it was too chilly to wear a skirt to mass so I could sport it with my black heels. :D
Debbie, that is so beautiful, thank you for taking the time to write from your heart. I feel the same way. I have never felt so free, and happy, as when I finally (my husband also) gave everything to God. People think it’s going to ruin their economic possibilities and make their sex life narrow…This couldn’t be farther than the truth. My big family is my everything. I never would have had the courage to be open to life, if the church hadn’t thought through the issue for me first. I didn’t follow blindly, I read on the subject, and prayed about it, and *understood*. It was a process however.
I have five in heaven too…:) I guess that means I’m expecting my fourteenth! That even shocks me. But not as much as the people, when they ask me if I’m expecting my “first”. Last night, I put on my four inch heels, and danced for hours at my husband’s company party.
Bill S., being a faithful Catholic doesn’t mean we need to drop out from the world, clasp our hands together, like a plaster saint, and look and act like a “goody-goody”! Lol. Jesus’ first miracle was at a rager. :)
Bill, yes I had 3 miscarriages—2 sets of twins.
I have always wanted twins so it was particularly hard to find I was pregnant with twins in the first case but was already losing them. In the second case - I knew I was pregnant with twins but they died and we waited for them to pass naturally - it was a long wait. Then we got pregnant again a few years later and lost that one too.
I already had a strong faith in God but through these losses it only grew stronger. There are times when there was nothing that could make me feel like taking another living breath when sorrow was at its deepest - but, at those moments - something outside of myself gave me the grace to keep going - and the grace to feel joy and the grace to feel deep peace. I know how much that was NOT from me. There were other more supernatural ways in which I felt God interacted with me and our whole family through those times.
I learned a lot about the suffering of Mary and the love she had for Jesus and love in her heart for the rest of us despite that fact that her son was brutally murdered and that He went through this because of our sins. I learned a lot about the suffering of Jesus and what He did for us - because of His love. Also, the love of the Father who gave us His son.
I lost my babies into the perfectness of Heaven while God, the Father, sent His son to this messed up Earth - knowing that His son would suffer and die for all of the horrible things we do. That kind of Love is something I will never tire of learning about or celebrating. That is the source of my joy.
That, and every now and again, I get a real sense of their prayer power and maybe some of their joy. It is because of Jesus and His sacrifice that I even have the hope of ever reuniting with our babies and other loved ones we’ve lost. But even beyond that hope is this real knowledge that God has involved Himself intimately in our lives and we feel His presence and along with that—the presence of all who are with Him in Heaven. Mass is a place where I go and feel close to those I’ve lost. Nothing but that faith can bring them so close to me. It is a beautiful way to live and the Catholic faith - is more and more beautiful the more I delve into her wisdom and teaching.
Debbie,
You certainly are a good spokesperson for the Catholic Church. I don’t understand how you reckon that you have five children in heaven. Are you talking about miscarriages, children who you have lost or both? You must have had a lot of pain in your life yet you keep trusting in God. You are an inspiration.
When this issue arises I am reminded of a Sunday morning in Jamaica. I was on my way to mass and passed aJamaican mom dressed in her sunday finest with her chick all in a row following her also in their sunday best. She had her bible tucked under her arm and was a real portrait of faith.I wish we all would follow her example. She not only talked the gospel but by her attention to dress dorve the point home to her family and anyone else who paid attention. God bless all the people of faith who lead by example. Thanks for this column i am again reminded how important it is to gve my very best in all aspects of my life. You will find me in the pew coat and tie. we have been invited to the “Wedding Feast” lets dress the part.
Bill I have 10 children (5 here on earth and 5 in Heaven). When I became Catholic, I decided to follow Church teaching on everything which included giving up birth control. We followed NFP and then became completely open to life. It was after I gave up the birth control that my view and understanding changed. Sometimes, the experience is the teacher. But, I would have to stay the Church’s teaching was correct in our experiences but I would have never thought so had I not tried the teaching on by actually experiencing it. But, my conscience saw things a different way when I was choosing different experiences - it started to make sense the Church teaching about how we can dull our conscience and then it is hard to think clearly about certain topics.
A great challenge - maybe for Advent and Lent - could be to follow Church teaching in how you live - just to try it on - this would include Confession, Eucharist, teaching on birth control - everything. Maybe a tall order - but I did call it a great challenge. Could it be so detrimental if you just tried it on for a short time?
In an earlier post you say the Church shouldn’t get involved in Politics - that is like saying it shouldn’t get involved with people - politics is simply people saying what they think the rules should be. The Church is made up of people who believe a certain ideal and that that ideal comes from God whos laws are universal - shouldn’t those people bring those ideas to the public square since they views count just like everyone elses?
Also if you don’t want the Church to be involved with politics why would you then criticize her for not wanting her followers to vote? It appears she does want their voices to be heard because she does condone voting.
Just watched for Greater Glory—wow. Why it is nice when the Church does get involved…it can put an end to terrible atrocities.
Following Church teaching does not mean that people don’t think for themselves, and it does not mean that the Church controls their every thought, word and deed. This thread alone illustrates that that is not the case. There are many faithful Catholics on this thread, many of whom follow the official teachings of the Church, yet have differing opinions of how important dress is at Mass. That is just one of many examples of things that faithful Catholic disagree about. But the Church does have some non-negotiable teachings. Catholics don’t have to blindly follow these teachings. There are ample resources to learn about the rationale behind them. If someone finds that they are irreconcilable to one’s personal beliefs, there are churches out there with other teachings, or churches that don’t have many teachings at all. I don’t say that to imply that “cafeteria Catholics” should go elsewhere. I’m saying it to point out that the control factor is not there. No one is forced to be Catholic. It is a choice. Catholics will, however, speak for those who have no voice (such as the unborn).
My son’s behavior (when he’s dressed in his standard dark jeans and sneakers) also reflects that he is someplace special. Last week I once again got compliments from the people around me about how well behaved he is at church. Thankfully there is more than one way to show thankfulness and respect.
At Mass we enter nto the celebration of Thanksgiving -Eucharist. When my children were small and teens we dressed nice for God and our thankfulness of all recieved from Him. This seemed little for the much he had given us that week. Father B once told me of the single parent with 6 children who from the local second hand store dressed her 4 boys in white shirts and dress pants every Sunday. He still thinks of her and her children in prayer. What a reward! His additional coment to me is with all her struggles and limited funds how could others on Sunday not do the same. Their behavior also reflected they were someplace special.
“Cafeteria Catholics believe that they can pick and choose between their personal beliefs and the teachings of the Catholic Church, and seem to place more value on their personal beliefs.”
What do you have if not your personal beliefs? Why would anyone want to put Church teachings before their own personal beliefs? If it could, the Catholic Church would exercise total control over everything people say, do and think. It would never ever encourage people to think for themselves. It is the freethinkers of the world who have made the changes necessary for people to enjoy their individual freedoms. At one time, it was a sin for people to vote in the Italian elections.
As far as being a cafeteria Catholic, that’s the only way I will remain a member of the Catholic community. You lose so-called cafeteria Catholics, and you might as well close up the churches because there won’t be any money to support them. I’m not going to give up my Catholic social life based on the insistence by extremists that I bow in compliance with every Church teaching. My Catholic friends don’t do it and I’m certainly not going to do it. If you want a good example, just look at birth control. Most people I know have two or three children at most. Very few people have more. And I don’t think the ones who do necessarily have a better sex life.
I’m trying hard to be a part of the existing Catholic community without making my life absolutely miserable. People like you, GregB, are not making it any easier.
Yeah, I was tempted say that too—but he was being kind and sincere when he said that and I felt that the Church was bigger than one priest’s comments anyways—but his words, while initially bothersome, were what broke down that final barrier. But that is my story…
Hope you have fun at your party and that you continue to enjoy hanging with Catholics. :-)
“I see that you are not able or ready to hear what the Church has to say about her teaching in this area - you have to decide for yourself if you want to fully listen to her point of view and if you don’t believe decide if you want to become Catholic on faith or decide not to be Catholic”
If I weren’t a Catholic and a priest said that to me, I would have said: “Thanks but no thanks”.
I’m in between mass and the party. Got to run.
Bill, the glorious mysteries are the ones I struggled with most as well. Mostly because of how I was raised as a Protestant and their view of Mary.
So to me, as well, the Assumption was “impossible” - I had no struggle with the Resurrection, however because I believed in Divinity and in Jesus being God as well as man. But, I too, had my list of things that the Catholic Church would have to change before I ever became Catholic. And, even while I pursued learning about the Catholic Church - I did everything in my power to try to change it into what I believed it should be. I was arguing (not in a mean way) but was arguing with a priest about Holy Communion and he just stopped me and said something like “I see that you are not able or ready to hear what the Church has to say about her teaching in this area - you have to decide for yourself if you want to fully listen to her point of view and if you don’t believe decide if you want to become Catholic on faith or decide not to be Catholic” I felt like I was trying to learn and I was being open and I felt a bit defensive about that comment—but somehow in really reflecting on what he said, I realized that I really hadn’t been listening with a truly open - “I am seeking the truth” mind. I wasn’t really listening and trying to integrate what the Church teaches…even while professing I wanted to be Catholic (which I did except for these few things…but my heart was still so drawn to the Church while being conflicted at the same time). Once I decided to give it a full go, things started to make more sense. We can really block our own process of learning about the Catholic faith…esp. with our own biases.
The best way to learn about the Catholic faith is to read what it has to say about itself. What it teaches in its encyclicals and CCC. Let the Church tell you what the truth is - know what it teaches inside and out before deciding that you don’t believe it.
What makes you think the resurrection couldn’t happen? If God created the universe - don’t you think that He would have the power to enter into it and become man? And don’t you think He’d have the power to raise Himself out of that world that He created? And, if there is a God - wouldn’t it be the best God - one that allows us to follow our own free will (even if that means the world is a hurtful place) and allow us to learn and choose to follow Him? And - wouldn’t it be a great God that humbled Himself to become one of His lesser creations? And wouldn’t it be a truly benevolent God that would have a special place for those who choose Him that is free of pain and sorrow and sin - because of that love. And, because some will not want what He has to offer - because of this free gift of love - wouldn’t it then follow that this benevolent God would have a place for those who want nothing to do with Him? And if the truth is that all goodness comes from God that if you chose to reject God that the only thing left from this full rejection of Him would be misery - what Catholics call Hell? But it would be freely chosen.
I went to 4 pm mass yesterday for today (Immaculate Conception). We are going to 4 pm mass today for Sunday. Then I am going to the K of C Christmas party. Not bad for an atheist.
I used to do Adoration too. Transubstantiation is one of those supernatural concepts that I stopped believing. The concept of there being such a thing as the Holy Spirit is not beyond possibility to me. I will pray and look for evidence.
I was at Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament today. Of course all things come to my mind and I was thinking of you, Bill, and your doubts.
I felt compelled to open my Bible and just read…it is fun to do that sometimes. I opened to Ephesians Chapter 3 - The Church Mission to the World - how very timely. I read on to the end of this section (Ch. 3 and Ch. 4) I liked all of it but printed up the part that ends with “Putting on Christ” Since the article is about what we wear changing our attitude about God. This is more along the lines of our spiritual dress - but it colors the way we see Christ.
Renewal in Christ.* 17So I declare and testify in the Lord that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds;n 18darkened in understanding, alienated from the life of God because of their ignorance, because of their hardness of heart,o 19they have become callous and have handed themselves over to licentiousness for the practice of every kind of impurity to excess.p 20That is not how you learned Christ, 21assuming that you have heard of him and were taught in him, as truth is in Jesus, 22that you should put away the old self of your former way of life, corrupted through deceitful desires,q 23and be renewed in the spirit of your minds,r 24and put on* the new self, created in God’s way in righteousness and holiness of truth.s
The rest of Ch. 3 and 4 of Ephesians was good and I just kept on reading…
Just found it interesting that that is what I turned to today at Adoration.
Holy Spirit Guide Us.
“I think things went downhill when your position became that Catholics and the the Church had no right to say anything in the public square about public policy, or science.”
Ada: I meant to respond to you and I forgot sorry. I think deep down inside of me, there is a long list of changes that would be required for me to accept the Catholic faith again. The list is so long and the church is so entrenched that I don’t think the list will ever be acted upon let alone fully satisfied. This makes it sound like I am saying “Lord, I except you, but only under these conditions”. One of the things I would wish for is for the Church to get less involved in politics. Like the issue of same-sex marriage. It is the Supreme Court that has the final say, not the Church. I am sorry that things went downhill when I stated these opinions. I won’t be going there again.
Debbie and Greg B:
I appreciate all your input. I have been a Catholic for 60 years total on and off again. At times, I have been very devout, even going to mass every day. It all began to unravel when I was saying the glorious mysteries of the Rosary and realized just how impossible each of the mysteries is. I decided right then and there that I would pursue the truth no matter where it lead me. Now my only desire is to get along with the Catholics I know. I have told my best friend and we are getting together for lunch next week. I don’t think I have made any enemies online. And perhaps I can eventually be as forthcoming with the people around me as I am on these blogs. No one so far has condemned me and I don’t think anyone will. I don’t want to lose any friendships over this.
Have you tried offering a Rosary for your search? Mary was my stumbling block but it was an openness to learning about her and praying the Rosary that changed everything. Mary is a mom in love with her son. If anyone can bring you to Jesus - it is Mary - that is why I mentioned the green scapular. All the info is there about the Catholic faith - people can tell you all about it but no one can force you to accept it. At some point, you have to be the one that opens up to it, prays, researches, and God will do the rest. Be Not Afraid (Pope John Paul II) :-)
I’ve been there—to some degree.
Peter Kreeft - http://www.peterkreeft.com/books.htm—lots of good stuff.
Bible studies I’d recommend—Jeff Cavins Bible Timeline and stuff by Scott Hahn.
Mere Christianity - CSLewis
Pope Benedicts books are amazing and easy to read.
Bill S wrote:
GregB: I apologize. This is what you said: “It has long been Church teaching that there are two judgments. A particular judgment that happens when we die, and a general judgment at the End Times. Both are equally binding.”
From this I inferred that you believed it. All I was saying is that whether it is true or not, my believing it or not believing it won’t change anything. I don’t believe it and I don’t spend any time worrying about it. Despite all that I don’t believe, I believe in the Catholic Church and the good that it does.
*********************************************************************
Your status in relationship to the Catholic Church has been somewhat amorphous. If you were a straight up atheist, I probably wouldn’t have made a comment. I do believe in the two judgments, but the Church teachings are something that are external to my own beliefs. Cafeteria Catholics believe that they can pick and choose between their personal beliefs and the teachings of the Catholic Church, and seem to place more value on their personal beliefs. Many of these cafeteria Catholics give public false witness to the true teachings of the Catholic Church. All that I have to do is look at how the Anglican Church is being torn apart by modernists trying to force their personal views upon the Anglican Church to see how dangerous cafeteria spirituality is. Speaking for myself I try to make my faith God-centered, not self-centered. The Our Father aka the Lord’s Prayer is pretty clear on this point.
“Are you a cradle Catholic?” - yes
“Have you fully studied the written documents of the Catholic faith (Bible, Catechism, encyclicals, Pope Benedict’s books, etc)?” - some, but not a lot.
“Much deeper and more thorough than what you grow up with in the Catholic schools and religious ed.”
I had 12 yrs but I didn’t pay a lot of attention.
“and had no trouble believing the Catholic church was wrong even while I respected and even admired the Catholics in my life.”
That’s where I am right now.
Patrick I do think this is an important issue and may mirror a marginalization of men in general as women had taken a more pronounced role in work and the public square. I would hate to think that women’s gain is men’s loss as if life is some zero-sum game. I don’t know. Maybe western man is going through an identity crisis.
I think women are good at making sure their needs are met and quite willing to speak out, men not as much so. I not sure whats going on in men’s heads and am cautious about speculating. I would be interested in hearing your perspective.
I wouldn’t have thought that vestments would be an issue since they have basically been around for centuries. I think a monk’s habit is very masculine.
I’m with you on the search for the truth. Are you a cradle Catholic? Have you fully studied the written documents of the Catholic faith (Bible, Catechism, encyclicals, Pope Benedict’s books, etc)? Much deeper and more thorough than what you grow up with in the Catholic schools and religious ed.
I am a convert and would never have become Catholic had I not believed in the faith and what it teaches hook, line, and sinker… but it took time, patience, prayer, and pursuit to get to that decision. Once I started praying about it and made the decision to really learn about the Catholic faith (my husband was/is Catholic) things moved along faster. Before that, I just attended Mass with my husband without giving his faith too much a thought…and had no trouble believing the Catholic church was wrong even while I respected and even admired the Catholics in my life. I had gotten to the point where I was ok marrying a Catholic and that was all the farther I thought that God was going to take me…
“It sounds like you don’t really like not believing but that at some point in time you did make the decision not to believe.”
I just want to believe the truth, whatever that turns out to be. God cannot hold it against me if I honestly pursue the truth. If by reading, discussing and praying, it becomes obvious that there is no God, it will be an inconvenient truth. I would rather live the rest of my life believing the truth and not a delusion.
Couldn’t find Earl, did see a post by you to someone called Rob about same-sex marriage so I guess you were fishing in more than one pond.
I don’t think anyone minded your unbelief and I personally like discussing religion and don’t get much opportunity in the real world. I think things went downhill when your position became that Catholics and the the Church had no right to say anything in the public square about public policy, or science.
Ada, the book doesn’t talk about women being too feminine. What men were telling the author is that most times the environment in a church is too feminine, like candles, flowers, priests dressing up instead of being masculine in appearance.
I find on men’s retreats there is an attempt to make it more comfortable for males even in the chapel. But I guess if 70% of attendees at Mass are women why would priests or bishops want to change anything.
You missed Earl? You’d have to scroll back to see his comments. He would cut and paste everything you say and give terse responses line by line. He wasn’t trying to learn. They called him a troll
By the way, who is Earl?
If you wish to believe, but don’t, but attend Mass and respond on blogs you are obviously doing some things to attempt to be open to believing…
What other things have you tried? Have you prayed to God since you decided not to believe? Have you asked Him to reveal Himself to you? Have you gone to Confession and discussed your doubts or feelings with a priest? You read Dawkins which is decidedly anti-religious- but have you fully read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Bible, and works like by Aquinas or the Church fathers, or watched Marcus Grodi on EWTN? Or tried things like wearing the green scapular (for conversion), etc. Gotta get the topic of “what we wear” in there ;-)
It sounds like you don’t really like not believing but that at some point in time you did make the decision not to believe. God will respect that and stay away. What do you think would happen if you changed your decision? What would happen if instead of changing what you wore to Mass you changed what you believe about Mass by saying - Lord, I am deciding to believe, help my unbelief! Show yourself to me! Guide and help me.
It takes a step in that direction…and tell God if you feel like He is rejecting you—tell Him you need Him to be in your life so you know that He is there!!
God is for everyone—if He exists—He is there for you just like anyone else…
I started out talking about people I know who dress up for mass every morning and things kind of degenerated because as much as I wish I did, I don’t believe. Sorry about that.
Then why, Bill, are you spending so much time discussing the faith with other Catholics on a Catholic blog? I personally love my faith and want to learn more about it and learn to be holier in all that I do. It is inspiring to hear other Catholic viewpoints and I am open to hear other non-Catholic viewpoints. I am happy to share that faith with anyone on any blog - but on a Catholic blog, I would prefer not to hear about how others think it is a good thing that the world is becoming less Catholic. It does not seem the appropriate venue for that comment- esp. in the comment section of an article about how to get more out of Mass. I hope you continue to enjoy Mass and continue to reflect on the faith and enjoy the company of your Catholic friends. I pray that God makes Himself powerfully known to you and guide you where He wants you to be.
Patrick I think the point of Jennifer’s article was not what other people wore but what we ourselves wore affected our personal worship.
I think you may have a point that there is a drop in male attendance but I don’t think it is because females are being too feminine. I certainly find a male being masculine attractive not repellant. Before I am misunderstood I do not mean this in a sexual context. Men must look to themselves as to why they wander away. I doubt making the sanctuary into a man-cave will help :)
” Pro-life atheists do exist.”
Yes but they are a minority and the majority prevail.
“I always thought if I notice what other people are wearing at Mass then I’m probably not too focussed on worshipping and praising God.”
I’m sorry that we have moved on to other issues not related to the article.
“In our society, I agree the latter appears to prevail but that doesn’t mean it should.”
Society has moved away from the days when the Catholic Church had more influence. To some that is a good thing. To others it is not. I’m sorry to say that I see it as a good thing.
My God, I’ve turned into Earl.
In our society, I agree the latter appears to prevail but that doesn’t mean it should. In the end, I believe God will prevail and that is what the Church teaches. You are not just a messenger- you are a person, like me, that has to decide where the truth lies and how to respond to it. A grave responsibility for us for sure.
The Church, too, is the messenger and she has my ear and my heart.
I always thought if I notice what other people are wearing at Mass then I’m probably not too focussed on worshipping and praising God. How can I welcome people especially those I don’t recognize if I’m concerned with what they are wearing?
I read a book a few years ago entitled, “Why Men Hate Going To Church”. If you look around most parishes it’s normally about 70% women in attendance at Mass. One of the big complaints men had about attending church services was the use of flowers, candles and the garments that priests and ministers wore. It was too feminine. After reading Jennifer’s blog maybe there is some truth to men’s complaints.
I understand everything you are saying but it is just the difference between theist and atheist points of view and the latter prevails in matters of science and medicine. I’m just the messenger.
“To an atheist, a mouse trap is more inhumane than killing an embryo.”
Not necessarily. Did you follow the link I posted? Pro-life atheists do exist.
Whether you believe an embryo has a soul or not does not change the objectivity. And if it does have a soul than certainly with all boldness, it is right to defend that life…and to write regulations governing what we do with them. Humans - all humans have dignity.
The scientific fact is that an embryo has all the DNA that a born baby does. The embryo is human. And the killing of an embryo is not humane in any way shape or form. Pain is involved, dismembering limbs, saline, chemicals, etc.
If we are to “put on Christ” with our dress - we certainly should “put on Christ” by protecting life which is the creation of the Christ for whom we are dressing.
Soul or no soul - God or no God - the legalized killing of a woman’s child only denigrates a society. A woman who kills her baby is 87% more likely to commit suicide. This can’t be a good thing. Abortion hurts women - psychologically, physically, and spiritually and a baby dies- a future that would have been is done away with at the hand of another human.
“Is there no check on science except what the scientists decide through there own codes of ethics?”
There are thousands of regulations published every year, none of which require input from the Church.
“Do not we moderns consider human embryos less than human?”
I wouldn’t say “we” if you are going to take the Catholic stand on the issue. To an atheist, a mouse trap is more inhumane than killing an embryo. It you believe that embryos have souls then you can’t be objective and can’t write regulations governing anything involving them.
“I was sensitive to the accusation that I had injected politics into the discussion. I make a point never to do that.”
I don’t remember making any accusations. Sorry if I did. And I am trying to be as objective as I can based on what I believe as opposed to what you and the Church believe.
The thing is - slavery was perfectly acceptable in its day, so was exterminating Jews - Hitler was well-loved and was able to rise to power. Not all people saw who he actually was until late in the game. Abortion and embryonic stem cell research would be reprehensible in previous generations but this generation seems to think it is fine. But what will future generations think? Meanwhile - the Catholic Church has always stood for the dignity of the person - slave, Jew, embryo, or otherwise. Their teaching has been consistent while the actions of the people (some Catholic others not) waffle all over the place on different issues largely influenced by the propaganda of the day. We are confused but 2000 years of Church history seems to be spot on (the teachings - not necessarily the behaviors of people in the Church).
I not judging you. I just hope you would consider my points objectively. Is there no check on science except what the scientists decide through there own codes of ethics?
Aren’t scientists a product of their place and time. The parallels in my comment were extreme and maybe not fair but I think apt. Do not we moderns consider human embryos less than human?
I was sensitive to the accusation that I had injected politics into the discussion. I make a point never to do that.
“I did not and would not compare Obama to Hitler. Where did that come from?”
Sorry. I didn’t mean to imply that you did. But Catholics I know have actually called Obama the Antichrist. And they meant it
“Of course us moderns are perfect and need no guidance, especially from the Catholic Church.”
I agree with the last half of that statement.
“Lets keep quiet and let the scientists get on with their job.”
If we want progress to continue. Yes.
I’m actually going to a party at my church social club. Be kind in judging me. It’s complicated.
I did not and would not compare Obama to Hitler. Where did that come from?
Of course us moderns are perfect and need no guidance, especially from the Catholic Church. Lets keep quiet and let the scientists get on with their job.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/confessions-of-a-pro-life-atheist-what-gives-me-the-passion-to-actively-opp
I do see a distinction between Dr. Mengele and Obama (and other pro-choice politicians), because Mengele was being intentionally cruel, while Obama and others have good motives, although I think they’re very misguided. But the thing they have in common is seeing their victims as less than human.
Abortion is not just a Catholic issue. It is a human rights issue which transcends all religions. On another one of Jennifer’s articles, I posted a link to an article written by a pro-life atheist. I will retrieve that and post it here in a minute.
I do not respond to any comparisons of current activities to those of Nazi Germany. Embryos are not to be compared to Jews being systematically exterminated or used for cruel experimentation, Obama is not to be compared to Hitler, etc.
Professionals have their own codes of ethical behavior. I myself belong to an association that has rules of professional conduct that do not require any moral guidance from the Catholic Church. References to Dr. Mengele are inappropriate when discussing modern ethics.
I do understand that my faith in the Catholic and its teaching that it has the fullness of the truth maybe be subjective to someone who is not Catholic or who does not believe in that Catholic teaching. But, I do believe there is an objective Truth - and it is up to us to search and find where that Truth is held. Who has the authority to define this truth or to pass it along? I believe in God and believe He has revealed this Truth to us—so who claims to have this Truth? And of those who claim to have the Truth who has the fullness of the truth? That person or group would be who I would look to for the authority on Truth. I have not always been Catholic but in searching, I found this truth and authority in the Catholic Church. But that is something that everyone has to prayerfully and carefully discern with their own free will to do so.
Sorry Bill and Everybody but couldn’t let this pass:
“The experimentation that you are referring to (experimentation on human embryos) is outside the jurisdiction of the church. The church has direct jurisdiction over Vatican City and those who ask to be regulated by the church. Research scientists do not conduct their work and Vatican City and they do not ask to be regulated by the church. It is a misconception to suppose that morality can be defined by any single entity. Experimentation on human embryos is within the realm of science and as such is subject to a code of ethics which are agreed upon by professionals within that discipline. The church is not equipped to offer guidance to these professionals”
Let me apply this logic to Dr. Mengele the Angel of Death. His work was fully approved by the state. His work was advancing scientific knowledge. For example it might be useful to know how long it takes a person to suffocate under certain conditions,, might save lives one day etc. The beings he was using for his experiments were Jews, considered less than human and destined for destruction by the state anyway so why waste an opportunity for the advancement of science. Definitely in the realm of science. Is the church not equipped to offer guidance to this professional?
“Is Truth objective or relative? I believe it is objective.”
Then the next thing you proceed to do is define your version of the truth as the one being objective.
Yes, there definitely are objective truths. Everyone can agree that 2+2 is 4. That is an objective truth. But there is no sum total of truth that is objective. For example, to say there is one ultimate truth and that truth is God or Jesus Christ would be an objective statement to you but very subjective to me.
After conversing with people all day, I am starting to believe that maybe there is a holy spirit. When Christians pray to Jesus and Muslims pray to Allah and the same goes with Buddhists, Hindus and others, maybe the Holy Spirit recognizes these prayers as really meant for it. That’s about as close to God as I can get right now.
The Church has a right and obligation to speak the Truth as they believe it has been revealed and handed down. That is their responsibility. And, if Jesus died to save us all, it is the Church’s responsibility to try to inform us all of this Truth. That does involve instructing the leaders, scientists, ethics councils, etc. Whether they listen is an act of their free will.
The Church has been more consistent on passing down and interpreting faith and morals than most other religions where truth becomes something that progresses and changes with the times. Is Truth objective or relative? I believe it is objective.
As for getting mad at God. I know He has only love for us - He is real to me and Jesus is human (and God). I get angry and I ask why. He brings me explanations and/or peace. He listens and consoles. A normal stage of grief is anger. I express my feelings moment to moment and honestly to my Lord who is with me every second and wants to know my heart. When I feel angry I turn to Him who is the only source of my joy. He is the only one who can turn my anger into something worthwhile. He is the only one who gifts me with the faith and grace I need to endure whatever trial. He is the only one who can bring total peace. He welcomes my honesty, my questions, and even my anger. When I am wrong, He gently leads me to the truth. All of this can be through other people, experiences, ordinary stuff, or it can be directly from Him in a supernatural way. But - He does interact on an intimate level with us and yes, I will always struggle with blaming God for running things differently than I would - but He never fails to enlighten and to love me no matter what and every now and again, I get a tiny glimpse of the greater purpose for which we all suffer.
I read a book - Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence by Tan publishers which I really liked…about God’s role in the details of our lives. He is not responsible for nor does He will sin. But He is intimately involved with every detail. (And I have felt this teaching in my own experience..I feel His intimate presence and influence in my life).
I consider myself a very scientific person - there are things I cannot explain scientifically about God…but I don’t expect Him to abide by His own rules for time and nature…He exists outside of that and for scientists esp. Science and Math just point to the idea of objective Truth. There are black and white laws—like gravity, 2+2=4, etc. But there is the number line that points to infinity, and the Big Bang which begs the question “Who ignited the Bang?”, Truth - from a math/science mind would follow a certain set of rules—a consistent teaching - which the Church passes along unchanged in the area of faith and morals - intellectually speaking, the Catholic church has been the only faith that really makes sense. Supernatural doesn’t scare me because it just means what exists outside of scientific explanations. I don’t need acts of God to make sense scientifically. The fun of science and Math is to unpack the teachings of God that lie within these disciplines (like I said above…eternity, etc.)...but then there is so much more than that and that is what supernatural demonstrates…God is more than science, more than Math, He created is the Master of these disciplines. The beauty of the Catholic Church is that it is not afraid of science or Math or supernatural…it really does hold the fullness of the truth - it embodies it all!! Why limit?
Bill S.
Glad to see racism addressed by other Christians. Does that mean the Church cannot speak too? “atom bomb” is my shorthand for the physical and societal destructive power of raw science unbridled by morality which is clearly in the sphere of religion. I certainly agree that we have gone off the topic of “church dress” and apologize to anyone left still following this thread.
The atom bomb ended World War II. Racism in the United states and South Africa was addressed by other Christians such as Martin Luther King and Anglican Bishop Tutu. The Catholic Church does not have a “job” other than to preach the gospel, which has nothing to do with most of the things that the church gets involved in politically. The church is supposed to teach that Jesus died for our sins and by believing in him we have eternal life, which I don’t believe, but that’s the message. I’m sorry that we seem to be getting into a major argument here. I do have a major interest in the Catholic faith and I enjoy reading the blogs, but I could see where the baby with an atheist could just lead to a circular argument. No hard feelings.
Bill S,
If the Church is not interpreting and instructing its members and general society of the moral issues throughout history (racism is wrong, infanticide is bad etc.) then they are not doing their job. Raw science is a monster if it is not ruled by morality for example the atom bomb.
“What the church does oppose is a destructive intrusion of science into the
realm of morality (such as experimentation on human embryos).”
The experimentation that you are referring to is outside the jurisdiction of the church. The church has direct jurisdiction over Vatican City and those who ask to be regulated by the church. Research scientists do not conduct their work and Vatican City and they do not ask to be regulated by the church. It is a misconception to suppose that morality can be defined by any single entity. Experimentation on human embryos is within the realm of science and as such is subject to a code of ethics which are agreed upon by professionals within that discipline. The church is not equipped to offer guidance to these professionals.
Rob, you are out of control. First, I have not heard or read anything that would imply that straight marriage is in any way being mishandled by the government. So let’s just get that out-of-the-way. That leaves same-sex marriage. If this is conducted under the oversight of the state, then the church doesn’t have to deal with it. Which I believe is what you would want, right? On the other hand, if the church were to take control of marriage from the state, same-sex couples would be left out in the cold. The church would not sanction same-sex marriage. So if same-sex marriage is to be tolerated, which the church obviously has a hard time doing, it would have to be sanctioned by the state. Am I missing something?
Bill S
Maybe I didn’t make my point very well. You notice that that I did say that the church had applied Aquinas imperfectly.
St Thomas’s bold point is that the Church has nothing to fear from proper science. There is not a truth of science and a truth of Christianity but only God’s truth. Any incongruity is either bad imperfect science (like the sun revolves around the earth, the atom is the smallest particle,cholera is caused by vapors) or imperfect theology that interprets God’s revealed truth incorrectly. Mostly the Church does not oppose science but waits to see what stands the test of time. Some scientific “facts” do prove to be false.
What the church does oppose is a destructive intrusion of science into the realm of morality (such as experimentation on human embryos).
Many religious people “weasel” the issue’ holding that there is a religious truth and a science truth but this lacks integrity (an integrated self). Aquinas is saying “what are you scared of there is only TRUTH”. To me that is bold and beautiful.
In many cases, atheists are merely stating theories not facts. I agree with you that they often make these theories sound as if they are known facts. What I don’t appreciate is the way the Catholic church will take a stand against something like the morning after pill or same sex marriage based on beliefs instead of facts. For example, the church only believes that the morning after pill causes an abortion. But does it really. The latest information indicates that it doesn’t. But then the church will just say well it’s wrong anyway because it’s birth control and birth control is intrinsically evil. As if that is a fact. Another fact, God hates homosexuality. Most likely Moses said that a man shall not lay down with another man because that is disgusting or whatever it was that he said. And that is how God stated his opposition to same-sex marriage.
Dawkins has proposed that the human race evolved by a series of random events. He says – there are so many chances in the universe and that there are multiple universes that sooner or later such an occurrence was bound to come into existence. I don’t buy that. Some intelligence had to be involved in the design of the sequence of events that led to the human race. So there are things on both sides that I don’t believe.
“St Thomas said no, there is only “TRUTH” that any
gap between the two is a lack of understanding and knowledge.”
It is quite possible that by saying this St. Thomas steered the church in a direction in which it shouldn’t have gone. Had the popes known what we know today, many misunderstandings with people like Galileo would have been avoided. In proclaiming itself to be the sole source of the truth, and given St Thomas’s view that there is only one truth, the church can’t backtrack on all its erroneous assumptions regarding things pertaining to history and science. Many knowledgeable people like Bruno were burnt at the stake as heretics for beliefs that in many cases had nothing to do with religion or theology.
I prefer to look at some so-called truths as myths in many cases. Useful for teaching, but not factually true. This is why I have so much trouble reconciling my beliefs with what the Church teaches and the rules that it imposes.
Bill S
I think the Church’s argument with Richard Dawkins and other atheistic “brights” is that they go beyond proven verifiable science to posit unprovable theory such as ” a supernatural creator does not exist and that religious faith is a delusion—“a fixed false belief”. Atheists state this belief as a fact. The Church states their belief as a belief (revealed truth accepted by faith). Who is being more intellectually honest.
Bill S
“History has shown science and religion to be at odds with one another.”
A thousand years ago St Thomas Aquinas argued this meme with other religious scholars. He lived at a critical juncture of western culture when the arrival of the Aristotelian corpus in Latin translation reopened the question of the relation between faith and reason. The other scholars posited that there must be a “theological truth” and a “secular truth” to explain this dichotomy. St Thomas said no, there is only “TRUTH” that any gap between the two is a lack of is a lack of understanding and knowledge. He won the argument and that has been the Church’s position despite missteps during the next 1000 years to the contrary.
“it is amazing the number of Catholics and Catholic religious (in orders or priests) who have contributed amazing things to science while all the while having a deep faith in God and the supernatural.”
Those people are my only hope for my “salvation”. By “salvation” I don’t mean being saved from going to hell (I don’t think I will ever believe in hell). I mean being saved from a life that has no meaning and purpose. Richard Dawkins would say that you make your own meaning and purpose in life. The people that you describe have the ultimate meaning and purpose in their lives. They have science and religion. The best of both worlds. History has shown science and religion to be at odds with one another. If I had to make a choice between the two, I would choose science.
In any case, I would strongly advise you not to get mad at God. I much prefer to look at bad things like the loss of my mother at an early age as just an act of randomness and not anything caused by God. Mutations are what drive evolution and cancer is just a result of a bad mutation. You should have the same attitude towards those things that you get mad at God about. Remember the randomness of life. And use your faith to deal with it.
Hi Bill,
Thanks for your comments -
My husband is an Astrophysicist so I know what you mean about “being laughed out of science” and it is amazing the number of Catholics and Catholic religious (in orders or priests) who have contributed amazing things to science while all the while having a deep faith in God and the supernatural.
God made the rules of science - when those rules break - it is only He that can break them. It does make sense that if there is a God and He created the universe and the laws of science - He could also change the rules when it suits Him. And He can become man if it suits Him.
I love that when things go good or bad I can go to one source to say how I feel about it - God. And I get answers and peace that I couldn’t muster up on my own when I lay all my troubles before the Lord.
It is a beautiful gift to have this faith and to experience God in this way.
I love that I can be angry at Him and that He listens without condemnation.
The deep peace I can get from prayer is just not something I can get in any other way. I turn to God in all things and do believe that He has power over everything including what He chooses to leave to randomness and where He chooses to intervene with nature.
I suppose, time will tell and we will all know about the supernatural truths at some point. Until then, we just keep an open mind, search for the truth, and openly and honestly discuss our doubts, feelings, wonderings, etc.
Have you heard of Pascal’s wager? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal’s_Wager
To listening - that is beautiful about your baby’s soul.
I’m not commenting but I thank you for sharing that with us. You should feel that this is a safe place to discuss these things. I am also a skeptic but I believe that you are not crazy.
Bill S,
I’m a skeptic. I am familiar with people given to emotional outbursts. I’m unmoved when I hear about another case of fraud, I have seen the human condition at its best and and its worst. I’ve been the victim of crimes. I’ve observed mental illness in several forms. I’m not given to indulgence of religious sentimentality.
How do I even say this without sounding at best like an idiot, at worst, mentally incompetent?
It took me ten years to even work up the courage to tell my confessor that on occasion I have seen devils and have been visited by angels. I could never see their faces. I have had to ask the spirits of former occupants of my home(s) to please leave when they quietly appeared. I prayed for them. They were compliant. I have had my share of miscarriages. For some reason, the third time, I was allowed to see the child’s soul depart from my body.
I’m not crazy
or mentally unstable
or under the influence
I’m not looking for attention
It mystifies me
It embarrasses me
I don’t understand it very much
It has convinced me that the “veil” is thin, and there are realities that are beyond our senses most of the time.
Please do me the small favor on not commenting on this. I almost never bring this stuff up or revisit it. To what end? I also know I wouldn’t believe it if someone else reported it.
Bill S.
You might enjoy reading a book by a physicist called “The Physics of Christianity”. He uses theoretical physics to explain miracles, virgin birth, resurrection etc without contravening the laws of nature. Although parts were slightly above my head, controversial, and not something I would take as gospel but it did spark my thinking. Our physical universe is amazing.
C S Lewis has also written a book called Miracles that also inspires thoughtfulness on the subject.
Thank you Debbie for your encouragement.
“it is also easier for me to get angry at God when something miraculous doesn’t happen”
I think you are missing two key points: 1. the laws of nature, and 2. randomness.
As for the laws of nature (the only one I really have a handle on is gravity, I know there are laws of thermodynamics and just about every field of scientific study and even laws of economics, etc.), they cannot be violated. That is why I do not believe in the supernatural.
For example, the law of gravity. There is no scientific proof of the law of gravity ever having been violated. Not one. There are plenty of stories, but no evidence.
As for randomness, if you listen to people like Richard Dawkins (which I know you wouldn’t) everything happens at random. That is how life evolved. I personally think there is some form of intelligent design, but I would be laughed out of scientific circles if I even mentioned it.
There are random acts of violence, random acts of kindness, random numbers, luck, misfortune, etc. If you are going to believe in God, the first thing you are going have attribute to Him is randomness. I would make an exception and observe that there does seem to be a plan that was followed to arrive at human intelligence. And there are no explanations for Love, Beauty, etc. strictly in observing nature.
That is what I presently believe and it could change. If you have experienced miracles, good for you, but I personally don’t believe in miracles except for something happening that was highly unlikely. But even something with a one in a million chance of happening, will likely happen if you give it a million chances. If I hit the Powerball, I would call it a miracle, but someone had to hit it eventually and that person or persons would probably also call it a miracle.
I hope this isn’t upsetting to you but you can’t always give credit to God when something good happens or blame Him if it doesn’t happen or if something bad happens. Excuse my language but as the bumper sticker says: “Shit Happens”.
Thank you Debbie, for your encouragement.
“it is also easier for me to get angry at God when something miraculous doesn’t happen”
I think you are missing two key points: 1. the laws of nature, and 2. randomness.
As for the laws of nature (the only one I really have a handle on is gravity, I know there are laws of thermodynamics and just about every field of scientific study and even laws of economics, etc.), they cannot be violated. That is why I do not believe in the supernatural.
For example, the law of gravity. There is no scientific proof of the law of gravity ever having been violated. Not one. There are plenty of stories, but no evidence.
As for randomness, if you listen to people like Richard Dawkins (which I know you wouldn’t) everything happens at random (as opposed to “everything happens for a reason”). That is reportedly how life evolved through natural selection. I personally think there is some form of intelligent design, but I would be laughed out of scientific circles if I even mentioned it.
There are random acts of violence, random acts of kindness, random numbers, luck, misfortune, etc. If you are going to believe in God, the first thing you are going have attribute to Him is randomness. I would make an exception and observe that there does seem to be a plan that was followed to arrive at human intelligence. And there are no explanations for Love, Beauty, etc. strictly in observing nature.
That is what I presently believe and it could change. If you have experienced miracles, good for you, but I personally don’t believe in miracles except for something happening that was highly unlikely. But even something with a one in a million chance of happening, will likely happen if you give it a million chances. If I were to hit the Powerball number, I would probably call it a miracle, but someone has to hit it and that person would also likely call it a miracle.
I hope this isn’t upsetting to you, but you can’t always give credit to God when something good happens or blame Him if it doesn’t happen or if something bad happens. Excuse my language but as the bumper sticker says: “Shit Happens”.
I’ve experienced and witnessed supernatural events so it is easy for me to believe in them. At the same time, it is also easier for me to get angry at God when something miraculous doesn’t happen for a friend who is suffering esp. if I’ve been praying really hard. I’ve been working hard at not trying to control God. He can do anything but it is according to His Will and Plan (even though I often want to think I know better) When horrible things happen - esp. to kids, it is hard to understand why God didn’t/doesn’t always intervene. But, on a very small scale, as a mom, I can see that sometimes I must allow a child to learn things the hard way. I also know that when they suffer innocently they learn as well—like not being invited to a party or being teased at school. They learn a lot about empathy, etc. through experiences like these. Horrific events are at the very least allowed by Him—but I believe He would intervene unless He could see that something better would come of it. He has the big view that we don’t. Just like on the smaller scale - parents might be able to see a bigger view in letting the child suffer to learn a little lesson that might protect him from something more dangerous later on. In the case of horrific events…the only thing worse is the loss of a soul. And it might not even be the soul that suffers that is necessarily saved but the soul of a friend or an acquaintance. Somehow, God works all the good and evil together to save as many of us (and hopefully all) of us as possible. But He has to work it so that we freely choose it… Suffering has brought me closer to God so in a way, I “get” it…suffering really is redemptive and it does serve a useful purpose in the sense of our future in Heaven. Losing babies has helped me experience a small taste of Heaven as we’ve had some supernatural type events amidst the deepest points of our grief.
Heaven and afterlife must be an amazing thing- it can only be better in scale than the worst of worst suffering for any kind of suffering to make sense. And the gift of Jesus even more so - since He suffered all of it…
Bill - many of the saints went through deep, dark periods…but that made them very empathetic to non-believers.
Cursillo lasts from Thursday evening to Sunday afternoon. You would have to leave your son with your husband (if he can get the time off) or someone and you would not be able to call him. Any concerns you would have would take away from the experience. And you need a good sponsor. Having said that, it is well worth the time and effort. It is not co-ed so I was with all men who for the most part didn’t have to concern themselves so much with childcare. It’s more difficult for the women, especially single mothers. I have to find out when the next renewal weekend is.
That’s a great idea, Bill. I’ve heard really good things about Cursillo. I would love to go to a retreat someday. At this stage, the time commitment wouldn’t work for me, but someday…
Claire: thanks for sharing your conversion story. I meant to say when not where but you answered it anyway. I went to my men’s group last night to see some old friends. One of them, my Cursillo sponsor and founder of the group, reminded me of how on fire I was right after Cursillo. They have renewal retreats and I think I will go on the next one.
This is great! Thanks so much for this article. I’m currently expecting and it’s been tough just to look nice for church…or anywhere, actually. Looking good has always made me feel good, but it’s even better when the rewards are spiritual also (when I make the effort). God bless yo and your growing family!
Okay Bill, I have a few minutes here.
“Where did you convert?” I’m not sure what you mean by “where”. I was in high school when I converted.
“Did you have to go through much training? Were you baptized and confirmed at an Easter mass?” I was Baptized in an Episcopal church, by my own choice, at age 10. I decided to convert to Catholicism at age 14, at which time I had individual instruction by the pastor of our neighborhood Catholic parish. I was then confirmed with the regular 10th grade confirmation class a couple of years later.
“What was it that attracted you to the Catholic Church?” Oh boy, where to start. I liked the sacramental aspect of the Mass, and the ceremonial features that accompanied it. I liked that the Church had official teachings on the imporant moral issues. I liked that there was an official interpretation on the Bible, and that this was combined by sacred tradition. These were the things that attracted me to the Church in the first place, and the same things drew me back after I had been living a secular lifestyle in my 20s.
I was at the height of my faith in February 2009 when I attended a kind of retreat called “Cursillo” (little course). Somewhere along my path I began to question everything. In my own mind I decided that some things just are not possible. As I continued to practice my faith I saw more and more things that were impossible. So I finally decided not to believe in anything supernatural. I believe that the Church has evolved to what it is today without any divine intervention. It is like Peter walking on water and realizing that this can’t be happening.
Bill S:
The experience and struggles of life lived eventually brought me around to belief or back to it as I did believe as a child. Did it have the opposite effect on you and take you from belief to unbelief later in life?
Yes. I can see that. It is a leap of faith.
Bill S.,
Yes the “Incarnation” was the intellectual leap of faith. As Paul says of Christ crucified “a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles”
What I was saying was that I understand the intellectual struggle.
Bill: I’m about to head out to work, but I’ll try to get to your questions today or tomorrow. I can’t promise I’ll live up to Earl’s impeccable technique, but it’s something to strive for!
Bill S.,
What I meant was the sheer beauty of the natural world, its complexity and pure improbability at the sub atomic level of quarks and membranes and the vastness and power of the immense universe, why there is something rather than nothing? This speaks to me of a first cause. This is why I never had trouble believing in a creator. As the psalmist says “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork”
Very interesting, Ada. Thank you. A friend in my men’s group teaches RCIA. “The intellectual struggle wasn’t whether God (the clockmaker) existed but that he would take any interest in something as insignificant as a human being.” Well said.
Here is a short version Bill S.
Childhood- raised Methodist.
Young Adulthood- general vague deist and convenient agnostic when it suited me. Finally life’s struggles ushered me into full adulthood rather late and convinced me I needed a personal God. The intellectual struggle wasn’t whether God (the clockmaker) existed but that he would take any interest in something as insignificant as a human being. Taking the giant leap into acceptance that he had entered his creation as a man and suffered and died to show his love was the hard faith bit for me. After accepting that, reason, logic, and a study of history lead to Rome.
I now believe that God fully embraces, sustains, and inhabits this world. Protestants believe that although He uses physical water to cleanse our souls He was speaking metaphorically about using wine and bread to feed us himself etc.. That’s not consistent. Catholics embrace the fullness of incarnation.
As to the rest of your question, yes RCIA and Easter Mass. The Catholic church accepts baptism from most protestant denominations.
One of our older parishioners is an 84 year old gentleman who lives in fear of missing Mass. One Sunday, earlier this year, he must have been distracted and missed his usual roll call at our church. Undaunted Gerry considered that if he walked briskly he could still attend Mass at another Catholic parish nearby known for its strict adherence to pre-Vatican II dogma and doctrine. Despite or perhaps due to his advancing age Gerry always made the extra effort to remain physically active and now he was about to put his fitness to the test. The stifling hot weather provided our friend with the perfect opportunity to wear his favorite comfortable shorts, sandals and golf shirt but now to attend the alternate service hopefully just in time. Arriving somewhat out of breath Gerry immediately experienced the instant relief from his Catholic guilt of possibly missing a Mass. However, nothing had prepared our visitor for the reaction he received from the celebrating priest when he knelt to receive Holy Communion. Suddenly our miscreant felt the weighty hand of the representative of God pressing down on his shoulder followed with a loud thunderous announcement which could clearly be heard by the rest of the attendants “DON’T EVER COME TO COMMUNION AGAIN WEARING SHORTS”! Returning to his pew It took Gerry all of his remaining strength to absorb the shame and guilt he had hoped to avoid.
One of our older parishioners is an 84 year old gentlemen who lives in fear of missing Mass. One Sunday, earlier this year, he must have been distracted and missed his usual roll call at our church. Undaunted Gerry considered that if he walked briskly he could still attend Mass at another parish nearby known for its strict adherence to pre-Vatican II dogma and doctrine. Despite or perhaps due to his advancing age Gerry always made the extra effort to remain physically active and now he was about to put his fitness to the test. The stifling hot weather provided our friend with the perfect opportunity to wear his favorite comfortable shorts, sandals and golf shirt but now to attend the alternate service hopefully just in time. Arriving somewhat out of breath Gerry immediately experienced the instant relief from his Catholic guilt of possibly missing a Mass. However, nothing had prepared our visitor for the reaction he received from the celebrating priest when he knelt to receive Holy Communion. Suddenly our miscreant felt the weighty hand of the representative of God pressing down on his shoulder followed with a loud thunderous announcement which could clearly be heard by the rest of the attendants “DON’T EVER COME TO COMMUNION AGAIN WEARING SHORTS”! Returning to his pew It took Gerry all of his remaining strength to absorb the shame and guilt he had hoped to avoid.
Claire: Same questions to you. Can you please respond like Earl. I miss his item-by-item responses. I used to use that style to respond to violations at a hazardous waste facility where I was (get this, wait for it) Vice President of Compliance.
I’m a convert too, Ada. My background is mixed; my father is Jewish and my mother is Protestant. I wasn’t raised any religion per se, but I did grow up attending Protestant services with my grandparents on occasion.
At my parish it is common to see people coming in during the first reading (and I’m guilty of this myself on occasion, but am working on it). You’re blessed that you’re in a parish where there’s silence and reverence before Mass. At my parish it’s like social hour before and after Mass. And the biggest issue I see is people bolting out after Communion, as Bill mentioned earlier on this thread. It seems like Communion is being treated like the fast food drive-thru. But even so I try to be careful about making assumptions, because there could be situations where a young baby or toddler has had enough, or someone isn’t feeling well, etc.
Ada: I find it interesting that you are a convert. Where did you convert? Did you have to go through much training? Were you baptized and confirmed at an Easter mass?
What was it that attracted you to the Catholic Church?
I’ve enjoyed the discussion from both sides though looking back on my comments I think I might have appeared more 100% “Sunday best” that I am. When I have attended daily mass (I don’t do this regularly)I wear my work clothes which are casual. On Holy Days of Obligation I wear my work clothes because I come from work. Ironically this Saturday’ Holy Day at which I will attend the 8:00 Mass. After Mass I am due to help clean the church grounds, racking leaves and such so I’ll will be dressed further down. :)
I think one reason I’ve enjoyed the discussion is that I’m a convert and grew up Protestant “Sunday best” and in the South where it is a sign of respect.
One thing I love about Catholic services is the respect shown before Mass, the silence and people praying. Before the Protestant services that I’ve attended start, the noise of chatting, laughing and gossiping people can reach the decibel level of a freight train.
Another aspect that I would love to see discussed is something I have never seen in a Protestant church, late arrivals. At my church people are still arriving through the Nicene Creed. As many as a hundred. This is foreign to me. I mean the service starts at the same time every week. (please I am not talking about the occasional late family with young children and other reasons etc.) Also it goes without saying I am glad they did come, but to me it is not respectful and is distracting.
GregB: I apologize. This is what you said: “It has long been Church teaching that there are two judgments. A particular judgment that happens when we die, and a general judgment at the End Times. Both are equally binding.”
From this I inferred that you believed it. All I was saying is that whether it is true or not, my believing it or not believing it won’t change anything. I don’t believe it and I don’t spend any time worrying about it. Despite all that I don’t believe, I believe in the Catholic Church and the good that it does.
A tote bag is the sort of vessel which becomes used many times in everyday living. http://ibagsstyle.com
Bill S wrote:
GregB: you do realize that you have said what you believe. But the reality may be entirely different. I believe first of all that it doesn’t matter what I believe. Then secondly I believe that when I die, all brainwave activity will cease and I will no longer exist as a person. So I am not worried about any judgment of any kind. The funny thing is, you would think that that would change my morality. But it hasn’t. I am just as moral now as I was when I believed in sin and judgement. Telling people that they must believe in order to have eternal life is just a way of making them believe. Having said that, the reason I read this thread is that I am impressed by people of faith and I see nothing but good coming out of it. I benefited by being Catholic for 60 years. However, there is a lot that I no longer believe including the last judgment.
****************************************************************************
What I wrote is the teaching of the Catholic Church, not simply my personal belief. That teaching has been in effect long before I was even born, and it will still be the teaching of the Catholic Church long after I am dead and gone. I hope that a person who claims to be as moral as you claim to be will not stoop to twisting my words.
“the hurtful comments are the ones that imply that people who dress informally are lazy, disrespectful, unprepared, inappropriately dressed, etc.”
Claire: I know that I am kind of insensitive, but it is hard for me to understand why you feel so hurt over something so trivial. No one is trying to imply that you fall into that category and if you don’t, why worry about one person judging another person if that person isn’t you? If the posts are upsetting you, why don’t you just ignore them?
Ada, I wasn’t offended by your comments, and I already said that I was going to consider taking the challenge that you proposed. As I mentioned before, the hurtful comments are the ones that imply that people who dress informally are lazy, disrespectful, unprepared, inappropriately dressed, etc. I agree with the “cans” that you mentioned. That was Jennifer’s approach in this article: to explain the effect that dressing formally has had on her. Some comments here have gone beyond that into implying that this is an absolute for everyone, or else they’re lazy, etc. That’s what bothers me. I enjoy hearing about other people’s experiences and considering whether they might help me. I also certainly don’t advocate dressing sloppy to church. I just don’t like implications that people who dress informally are ...
Bill, to be sure, the bible has put many out on a limb when they seek to interpret it without the wisdom of the Church. Interpreting as a fundamentalist is a huge problem. Does Jesus really want us to pluck our eyes out, or “hate” our wife/husband/family in order to follow Him? Clearly not.
Mother Teresa had one profound “vision” in her life that prompted her to make the radical change she made. After that, she was enveloped by a kind of darkness, and proceeded by “braille” if you will. Her “darkness” was a way of suffering in solidarity with the people she served. Clearly, this didn’t diminish her spirit, on the contrary…I think you should ask her to be your guide on your spiritual sojourn :).
I love the idea of ‘What I Wore Sunday’- we always dress up- from a 2012 USA perspective- the girls wear skirts a bit past the knees at least and my boy always wears at least a polo shirt and slacks with dress shoes. It is not rocket science and it is not ‘Amish level’ strictness. Just a wee bit of dignity
Since we live an hour from church, I pack extra clothes for everyone in case we go to a park or the beach afterwards (isn’t that what a van is for?)
You’ll never find a WIWS post on my blog, however. I wouldn’t want the internets to suffer from my photos- I always admire other (non size 2 and under) women who have the courage to post photos of themselves
Anna Lisa: You are probably right that I should not call myself an atheist. I’m a Catholic that doesn’t believe in the supernatural. I practice the Catholic faith and I admire saints like Mother Teresa (when she does become a saint).
There are mysteries that I don’t understand. If I don’t believe everything that’s been recorded in the Bible or elsewhere. Thanks for the quotes.
Dressing casually is pervasive in culture now. People wear casual clothing everywhere. It has nothing to do with money. Casual clothing goes from cheap to super expensive. Why are the casual church dressers so defensive when they are the norm in our cultural zeigeist?
If the point is made that what we wear can influence us:think students in school uniforms who are able to apply themselves better in class. Or the point that our sense of sacred space and sacred events can be diminished by treating such space as ordinary space as far as dress is concerned. That a certain level of formality or discretion or different-ness in dress can enhance our respect for God. The person making such general points are jumped on as personally attacking the opposite view and being very judgmental to boot. No one is trying to be the dress code police. Why is a discussion viewed as an attack? Please note that I qualified every point with a conditional “can” not a definitive “does”. (can influence, can be diminished, can enhance)
Patti: agreed. I guess I misunderstood your original point. Purposely wearing rattiest clothes to Mass is less than ideal.
Patti: let’s get real. Both you and I know that there is no comparison between how you would dress for the President (even if you don’t like him) and how you would dress for weekly mass. There just isn’t that much needs to get all dressed up for weekly mass. But it does feel good to get dressed up on Sunday whether it’s for God or for yourself. Any way you look at it, you’re going to feel more at ease and at home with God than you would with the President of the United States. I think we beating a dead horse. That’s all I have to say on the subject.
Claire, you said, “Some of us feel that a clean and neat less than formal outfit is perfectly appropriate…” and I totally agree with that, what I don’t agree with is when people wear some of their rattiest clothes to Mass and act like there’s nothing wrong with it, which is what I said
Bill S: There are private “family and friends” dinners at the White House that have nothing to do with pomp and circumstance. If I was invited to one such dinner you can bet I’d buy a new dress to wear to it; in spite of the fact that the current President is someone I dislike. So to say that when I go to the “home” of the person I love the most, and want to show Him that total love and respect, I will dress in a way that is appropriate is not a ridiculous comparison. Please note that I don’t buy a new dress every week for Mass.
Reading this thread has been helpful. It has made me think how beautiful it is to go to Mass reflecting on Jesus being in everyone I see—no matter how they are dressed…immodest, nines, jeans, shoes, rags, riches, modest, skirts, pants, veil, no veil, makeup, no makeup…(and no matter how they act - judgmental, tired, cheerful, crying, fidgeting, nose-in-the air) etc.
Finding Him in everyone…He is demonstrated there…like people in jeans seem to point me to Christ’s humanity, people dressed in veil and more formally point to Christ’s Divinity. People dressed immodestly or who act mean, seem to be a call for Christ’s Mercy/Love) while that kind and gentle spirit demonstrates Christ’s love. They all go hand in hand. All seem to illustrate and point to some teaching about Jesus. He loved everyone sin or no sin and in Loving them, they turned their hearts, where needed, toward Him and away from sin. People are at Mass—that is the amazing thing! There are different ways people dress(and act!)I do believe God puts our very varied strengths and weaknesses together to test us and grow us in virtue as a community. It is good to question and listen - it really does grow faith. Thanks to Jennifer for this article and for all who commented - a bit of water, sunshine, and some turbulent weather even…to grow and strengthen this little soul of mine. Maybe another article could be How seeing Jesus in each person at Mass changed my approach to Mass or How will I be Jesus to others when I attend Mass? That would be a cool comment thread I think. It is always Joy to find Jesus at Mass!! :-)
I belong to a very conservative holy parish and I have NEVER seen anyone dress casual. These parishioners get it and I feel we owe it to God to look our best because he deserves our respect especially for the way we dress. My feelings must have something to do with my former Protestant life since I used to wear suits to church!
Bill S,
The child in his mother’s womb can’t comprehend that his mother exists, even though she envelops Him.—If I were you, I would stop identifying with the word “atheist”, as it infers a *repudiation* of God (think of Earl, shudder!).
.
“Lord that I might see”.—Bartimeus
.
“Be still and (choose to) know that I am God.”—Psalm 46:10
.
As for me, I see this world as a dark womb, where I wait in darkness for birth. I can’t touch or see Him but sense that I am enveloped by Him.
Oh, and I “implied” that you hadn’t read the comments because you “implied” that anyone who dresses informally for Mass has not given any thought to the issue. Which, based on many comments here, is a false assumption.
Patti: Yes, some people come to Mass dressed inappropriately. That doesn’t mean that everyone who is dressed informally is dressed in rags, or is dressed inappropriately or even less appropriately. Some of us feel that a clean and neat less than formal outfit is perfectly appropriate for encountering our savior in a personal way, and that is not an excuse. If you don’t want to dress that way (other than the one occasion when you did so inadvertently), fine. But save your judgments about others who have different standards. Jennifer’s article made me think about a different approach to dressing for Mass. The comments, on the other hand, have made me more comfortable with my approach, because I am raising my son to be very careful about judging people based on their appearance.
You can’t compare going to mass to going to dinner at the White House. It is a ridiculous comparison for the one fact that the dinner is a worldly affair where pomp and circumstance matter and the mass is spiritual where these things don’t matter. Jesus said to Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world (which to me is the only world that exists but that’s another matter).
Claudia,
Personally, I can’t imagine anything more central to my day, than immersing myself in prayer at Mass. This is the foundation and lifeblood of my existence. If the Church was never able to muster up anything else than the formation of the Godly individuals that sacrifice their lives to act “in persona Christi”, I would still consider myself a debtor to the Church.
Claire, apparently you haven’t been to Mass at my Church; where people often wear ripped jeans, T-shirts that you can’t wear at a public high school and/or tennis shoes that I would only consider wearing to do yardwork to celebrate the Liturgy… I won’t go into what some of the Eucharistic ministers wear on the altar which while not as bad, could use a revamp.
Also, I love that you imply that I hadn’t read the comments here. I’m not going to deny there many excuses for not wearing something more appropriate to Mass, however, it is important to remember that we go to Mass to encounter Jesus in a unique and personal way. I wouldn’t go to the White House for dinner with the President in such “rags”, so why would I go to the feast of Heaven and Earth to meet my Savior dressed that way?
GregB: you do realize that you have said what you believe. But the reality may be entirely different. I believe first of all that it doesn’t matter what I believe. Then secondly I believe that when I die, all brainwave activity will cease and I will no longer exist as a person. So I am not worried about any judgment of any kind. The funny thing is, you would think that that would change my morality. But it hasn’t. I am just as moral now as I was when I believed in sin and judgement. Telling people that they must believe in order to have eternal life is just a way of making them believe. Having said that, the reason I read this thread is that I am impressed by people of faith and I see nothing but good coming out of it. I benefited by being Catholic for 60 years. However, there is a lot that I no longer believe including the last judgment.
Bill S wrote:
I don’t know if this is true, but I was taught that the wedding garment was provided by the host. So there was no excuse for the man not to have one. The concept of a judgement day was another factor in my becoming an atheist. I just don’t see it happening, especially since it hasn’t happened by now.
*********************************************************************
It has long been Church teaching that there are two judgments. A particular judgment that happens when we die, and a general judgment at the End Times. Both are equally binding.
Patti: just because people aren’t dressed formally, doesn’t mean they’re dressed in rags, or that they even have rags hanging in their closets. And if you read the comments here, you’ll see that plenty of people who don’t dress formally for Mass still give the issue plenty of thought.
Thank you Annalisa!
Love the article! I am no jeans, no T-shirts, no tennis shoes mom. All my kids know this, even when we’ve had exchange students (and we’ve had many) they have quickly learned this… I have even had to buy dressy clothes for some of them before Sunday Mass. My stance is that while Jesus would encourage us to come as we are, that doesn’t mean wear any old rags you have hanging in your closet.
Saturday my youngest daughter and I attended an Endow event. We were in a hurry to leave the house and thinking about what would be comfortable to wear all day in the class - instead of that the day would start with Mass. When we arrived in the chapel my daughter pointed out that some of the others were wearing appropriate clothing and that we were wearing jeans and tennis shoes. Had she not pointed it out, I may not have been bothered by it… which makes me wonder if people who wear jeans, T-shirts and tennis shoes to Mass even think about it.
The story wouldn’t make any sense otherwise. I have often thought of this parable when I have seen homeless people in Saint Anthony’s Shrine in downtown Boston. I can’t imagine one of the Franciscans throwing them out. They are very active in helping the poor and homeless in the City.
I heard that too, Bill. The people at that wedding were invited at the last minute, and therefore wedding garments were offered at the door.
Posted by Claire on Sunday, Dec 2, 2012 7:33 PM (EDT):
That’s a metaphor for people who are not prepared for judgment day.
****************************************
I don’t know if this is true, but I was taught that the wedding garment was provided by the host. So there was no excuse for the man not to have one. The concept of a judgement day was another factor in my becoming an atheist. I just don’t see it happening, especially since it hasn’t happened by now.
The whole point of the link up is to encourage one another in dressing nicely for Mass, and the women who link up are from many different walks of life, are all different ages, are all shapes and sizes and have their own unique styles. With such diversity in women and with the common theme of looking nice for Mass, one can find inspiration to try certain items of clothing, different color combinations or just trying wearing necklaces and earrings for a change. http://www.mens-ties.com.au/
I’ve been doing a Bible study of the book of Exodus. In Ex. 28 God goes into a bit of detail as to how His priests should be dressed. We all have varying personal financial circumstances, but the spirit of Ex. 28 looks like a useful guide to our choices in church attire.
I wear my habit to Mass…...could wear jeans and a sweatshirt (I have ofen). Wearing my habit gives me more time to get ready for Mass! What is the point? Jesus dosen’t care what we wear to Mass…....we’re there and that is important. I’m still waiting for the Church to do some good for her people.
That’s a metaphor for people who are not prepared for judgment day.
Jesus doesn’t care how you dress:
“But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.”
JF,
Thanks for the article - it’s given me something to think about. I’ve actually spent the last several months weighing the advantages of “dressing up” or just going to mass in the usual jeans and sweater.
Having attended Catholic schools as a kid and then West Point as a young man, I’m familiar with the idea that dressing smartly can affect a person’s attitude toward prayer, learning, or life.
However, having attended Catholic schools as a kid and then West Point as a young man, I’m also familiar with a certain repressed urge to just unbutton the suit, loosen the tie and be myself—especially in front of God.
I’m 33 now and it has only been over the last three years of my life that I’ve become aware of God’s constant presence in my life. At this point in my life, I’ve had my fill of uniforms and rules of etiquette and attire. As such, I find myself just pulling on my most comfortable pair of jeans and top these Sunday mornings or Saturday evenings. I try to wear something that just allows me to be comfortable without being a distraction to those around me. This way, I can disappear into the crowd and sit with God as I’d sit with my own Dad - comfortable, unpresuming, and happy!
This is just the way I roll! To each her own, though… There is no accounting for taste! Thanks for the article, Jennifer—this is still something I think about regularly and you’ve breathed some more oxygen into that slowly-glowing ember…
Yeah. It checks out. Even if it were a pious fraud, it wouldn’t be a deal breaker. There are many fake relics but they don’t add or detract from real faith. The Catholic faith is powerful and I don’t take it lightly even if I don’t believe it all. A little skepticism is healthy. You won’t believe this, given the theme of this thread. My wife never wears jeans to mass but she did today. The priest asked her before mass if she wanted to light the advent candle and she refused because she wasn’t dressed up. She felt really bad about it. I told her not to worry about. How ironic.
Bill, do the research. A quick Google search would yield you a scholarly article. Why would a reputable, Catholic scientist lie, and risk his reputation, if his findings could be readily disproved as bunk science?
.
Again, I never let myself worry by trying to picture the way sacred mysteries will be made manifest. To what end?
.
You questioned the stars falling from the sky, but I think you tend to analyze events from a far too secular humanistic viewpoint. I have read that the “third of the stars” that fell to the earth, is a poetic reference to those spirits we call angels, that failed to serve God.
.
“I won’t believe it till I put my fingers in the wounds of his hands and side”...
.
O.k. Thomas.
.
(Hey, Thomas still turned out fine.)
I think someone painted the whole thing. This typical of the supernatural that I don’t believe in. I went to the 4 pm mass. The gospel was about the second coming. Something else I don’t believe.
@BillS, yeah I’m afraid that there is this kind of Catholic that needs to hype things. For instance, in some misplaced form of fervor, some probably well intentioned individual painted the gold rays, and angels on the tilma that has Our Lady Of Guadalupe’s image on it. Crazy eh? Google the scientific tests on the real image. They are fascinating, especially the part about her pupils. Miracles do happen for good reasons, and no our lady DOES NOT show up on grilled cheese sanwiches!!
.
My old confessor used to say something about ALL OF THESE THINGS, including the whole clothing debate that never stops raging.
.
BE NATURAL.
.
Holiness is found in the simple events of every day. Our Lady dressed like the vast population of her day, and went about her business being holy in an unobtrusive way, that didn’t call attention to her.
Hi Claire,
spambot is up to its old tricks again. I just wrote a short message and it swallowed it. Arrgh. I hope it spits it out. :) Peace at adoration tonight!
Claire, I just want to second what Bill S said. I’m going to distract you, and maybe render your synapses in overload mode by rudely barging into your personal life and saying that I hope a whole crowd of additional dark jeaned little boys in sneakers get to have you as their mama. How many Claires are there out there after all??
There. Hope you have a lot of peace at adoration. :)
KW: I’m sorry to hear of your losses, and I apologize for overreacting and jumping to conclusions about your comment.
Claire,
I see you’re not following this anymore, but my comment about large families wasn’t aimed at you, or at my family for that matter (we have one child with us, two in Heaven). I’m sorry you took it personally.
Yeah, it drives me crazy when people leave right after Communion. But even then I try to be careful, because there could be a valid reason (like not feeling well, or being with a young child who just can’t hold it together another minute). And no, I don’t take offense at you saying that it makes you feel good to see people who dress up and go to Mass in the morning. That’s similar to the theme of Jennifer’s article, and again I see it as a comment that is meant to inspire. It’s the comments that presume to know the hearts of people who are dressed informally, that can be hurtful. Now I am going to uncheck the box before I forget, because I really do have to focus on my family without letting this topic get me down. Otherwise I will lose the courage to go to Nocturnal Adoration tonight, and I really want to get Advent off to a good start. But we will definitely see each other on a future NCR thread!
“But when faithful Catholics make statements about people who dress informally lacking respect and being lazy, it unfortunately does have the power to hurt.”
That statement would not apply to you, Claire. You’ve seen the people who fit that description. I think that the retired and unemployed people or people that work or raise a family at home, who get all dressed up for mass are doing something good for their psyche. When I went to 7 AM mass everyday and had to get dressed instead of loafing around in sweats all day, it got my day off to a good start. There are retired people that go through that routine every morning and I think it’s great. I can say that without insulting someone on the other end of the spectrum who does the best she can.
Although I try not to judge people, there is one young couple who go to mass every Sunday morning dressed in running or gym clothes and they walk out the side door after receiving communion. I think it is great that they go to mass before their workout but it just rubs me the wrong way that they can’t even sit out the remainder of the service.
Anyway, I hope you don’t unsubscribe. I very rarely get to talk to people working at home and this is a great social outlet for me.
Bill, that’s sweet of you to say, and it seems that I can’t unsubscribe. I clicked on the link at the bottom of the email to stop receiving notifications. Then I received the notification of KW’s comment. I figured that our comments had just crossed since they were submitted at about the same time. But then I received your comment which was posted much later. So I don’t know what’s going on. Oh, I just figured it out. When I posted my response to KW, I forgot to uncheck the box for “notify me of follow-up comments” (I see that it is automatically checked at the bottom of this comment box too.)
As far as the troll: I think I’ve mentioned before that people like that really don’t have the power to make me feel bad. But when faithful Catholics make statements about people who dress informally lacking respect and being lazy, it unfortunately does have the power to hurt. And due to my history of miscarriage and infertility, I am sensitive to the big family vs small family comments as well.
Claire: you are a good person trying to live a good life. But you are so sensitive. Why take everything to heart? You have held your own in arguments with all comers. It is people like you that make these discussions worthwhile. Take the weekend off but don’t drop out. I enjoy your posts and I am more careful when I kid you because I know that you have a tendency to take things personally. You survived the troll. This is just child play by comparison. It’s kind of turned into a cat fight but it’s all good.
I have found that if I wear a flannel nightgown under my coat, it simply looks like a floor length skirt. I haven’t worn high heels in 25 years and haven’t worn a skirt for at least a decade.
You’re right, it’s small families like mine (well, I actually have four children if you count the ones in Heaven) who dress informally. (And by the way, we don’t wear “Just Do It” shirts or anything rumpled.) Yup, definitely time to unsubscribe. Now not only are we getting into formal vs informal, dresses vs pants, but now it’s also small families vs big families. I don’t think I want to be here when it moves to: devout Catholics have large families, homeschool, wear dresses, cosleep, do extended breastfeeding, ...”
What would you wear to a wedding? What would you wear to a funeral?
It’s not good to obsess about it, but I don’t think its good to neglect it, either. What you wear sends a message; if it didn’t, we could all wear muu muus 24/7 (a la Homer Simpson). Obviously, it’s wrong to judge anyone from their clothes. Our church is near downtown and a drop-in shelter, and it is wonderful to see people who appear to be down on their luck coming in (not wonderful to see them down on their luck, but wonderful to see them at Mass). On the other hand, if you come to Mass every Sunday, and you have something “nice” to wear, why not wear it? I’ve heard people essentially thanked for dressing respectfully at Mass, but never heard anybody say, “Hey, way to rock that Margaritaville t and rumpled cargo shorts!”*
Last thing: I haven’t done a formal study, but have casually observed that the families at our church with 3+ children seem to, on the average, dress quite nicely for Mass, not formal wear, but not Nike “Just Do It” t-shirts (see footnote below).
*No doubt, there are devout, holy people who wear Margaritaville t’s and rumpled cargo shorts to Mass.
I don’t have an issue with anything that Jennifer is saying. My issue is with some of the commenters here who have decided that anyone who isn’t dressed formally for Mass is lazy, disrespectful, and has not made an effort. Which is not necessarily the case. I mentioned earlier that I like to take on new spiritual challenges during Advent. I would consider the challenge of dressing more formally for Mass, but my bigger priority was my original goal of going to Adoration more often. I had planned to go to Nocturnal Adoration tonight, despite the fact that my family has a very busy weekend, and changing into formal clothes will probably not be an option (unless I want to be late). (And keep in mind that I don’t leave my house without makeup or in sweats or anything that is dirty, torn or stained, but apparently that is still below the standards of many people here.) After reading some of the judgmental comments on this thread, I had pretty much decided not to bother, because I didn’t want to spend my time at Nocturnal Adoration being preoccupied about the possibility that the people there might be making false assumptions about me as some of the people here have. I am still on the fence about it. I might go and offer it up as an exercise in humility. But it’s sad that a Catholic thread could result in discouraging someone from going to Adoration, and it’s sad that some Catholics would rather someone stay home from Mass than show up in neat, clean dark jeans with a well-fitting shirt (and bring their adorable preschooler who looks perfectly precious in his dark jeans and clean sneakers). It’s also sad that a bunch of judgmental comments on a Catholic blog can be as hurtful as the treatment that I’ve gotten in the past from non-believers. Jennifer’s article was meant to inspire, not to promote self-righteousness, superiority and hurt toward others. Which is why I am now going to unsubscribe. I would rather enjoy this busy weekend with my family than continue to be judged unfairly.
Taking delight in the beauty of others doesn’t have much to do at all with what they are wearing. BUT, what Jennifer is saying is to make your best effort to prepare and present yourself at the Mass to a loving Father. We are encouraged by the secular world to “not care” how we look, how we treat each other, how we feel about ourselves. Caring about the self, not vainly, is to love what God has created. Being aware of who you are as a daughter or son of God is something to be proud of and to celebrate.
I personally think modesty should be the highest priority when it comes to dressing for Mass, and formality should be secondary. By “modesty” I mean more than simply wearing clothes that cover the relevant parts of the body so others won’t be, ahem, tempted. I also mean clothing that does NOT attract undue attention to oneself or distract people in other ways—for example, T-shirts with questionable designs or slogans. One should neither be more sloppy NOR more ostentatiously formal than those around you.
As for the argument that you should dress for Mass as you would for the pope, president, etc.—while laudable, that leaves out one very significant factor: for most people an audience with the Pope, Queen, etc. would be a once in a lifetime event, not something they do every week or every day (unless they are themselves a head of state or extremely wealthy and powerful). Nor do most people have to bring infants or squirming toddlers to papal audiences or state dinners!
I don’t believe the stories. They are many and way over the top. I learned about him in the 80s when no one had heard of him in this country. My great grandmother’s brother told me about him and how they were related. Then I read some books about him. The last one was critical of him and tended to expose him as a pious fraud. I’m not convinced one way or the other.
You’re related to Padre Pio????? Freaking awesome. He hated the fuss of all those groupies. He just wanted to live a quiet life. Anyone who would sit in that hot confessional for the hours and hours and hours that he did, is a saint on those grounds alone. I don’t doubt that he ran into his share of dead souls and infernal spirits either. Hollywood sensationalizes these types of things. I think it is really far more subtle than what comes off in books and movies. These things don’t just happen to Catholics either. I choose not to focus on them.
Sorry. My iPhone changed the spelling of your name. Some of the changes it makes are embarrassing.
Anna Liza: that’s good to know. I just feel that the more you believe, the more you are asked to believe. People start to compete, believing in the impossible without proof so as to have the most faith. Padre Pio was my great grandmother’s cousin and I have read a lot about him. There is no way the folk tales about him have the slightest truth to them.
Bill, I know someone who struggles very much with his faith. He was worried for a while that he was an atheist. He realy agonized for a while. But honestly, I think he is a better Catholic now, than when he cruised along taking it all for granted, and not thinking about it.
.
Lol, “fake it till you make it”—Well, it’s easy to dress up once a week for mass. I actually like to—I’m just not sold on doing it every.single.day. Jeans are just fine in my book, and everyone under 100 wears them. It’s the heart that matters.
Be careful about judging who has made an effort and who has prepared for Mass, just by how formal their outfit is. Looks can be deceiving. Which is why it’s best to leave the judgments up to God, and worry about ourselves rather than others.
Preparing for the Mass by being mindful of what you are wearing is an act of respect for Christ, for the Priest, for the other Parishioners. The little girls at Mass taught me to enjoy being dressed up. So many of the little ones come to church in “fancy” clothes even if their parents are dressed down. I love seeing them light up or shyly smile when I compliment them on how nice they look. You don’t have to be “fancy”, but is making an effort too much to ask?
I found Fr. John Trigilio’s sermon on dressing reverently for Mass, which I think strikes a nice balance with some humor thrown in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_ePdvRsA4&feature=youtu.be
Anna Lisa: Thank you for your prayers.
I see the good that comes from faith even though I find it hard to believe in anything that would be considered supernatural. That covers a lot. But I am part of a community of people who love one another. I have a loving wife who lives by her faith. It is more likely that I will decide that it doesn’t matter whether it is true or not. It is the fruits produced by faith that make faith what it is. I have no choice but to keep practicing the Catholic faith and hoping for a clearer understanding. In regard to this blog, I think of two sayings: Dress for success. And fake it till you make it.
@Darlene,
Just curious, how much is tuition at your parochial schools? It’s crazy expensive here, which doesn’t bring out a normal cross section of people. A friend of mine moved to Indiana ages ago, but it shocked me when she told me that tuition was basically *nothing* because their huge community considers it a worthy cause to support. Amazing.
@Anna Lisa, thank you! Our parish is a very great place and I feel blessed to be able to attend…God is moving in the Church in the Southeast and we all feel very blessed!
Reflecting here for a second about what we **feel** when we go to mass. There aren’t always fuzzy feelings. In fact, I think God sometimes gives this to the weaker ones that need it, but the purest state is simply to be there out of worship, even if it **feels** like we are not getting anything in return, which we know by faith is not the case.
.
As for the whole clothing thing—I find that it is distracting. It’s kind of like feeling a feathery,creepy feeling on the back of your neck at night, and jumping out of bed like a freak when your brain tells you it must be a spider! When we obsess, our minds play tricks on us.
.
On Wednesday I wore some comfortable pregnancy jeggings and Ugg boots with a longish blouse and coat. When I tried to urge my husband to the back of the church, and admitted why, he rolled his eyes and told me I was being ridiculous, striding up to the spot we usually sit. It exasperates him when this stuff makes me scrupulous.
Bill S., if you are feeling prompted to go back to daily Mass, taking God up on the offer would be a good thing. Jesus is waiting for you, and will be glad to have you. And as for doubts about one’s faith, think of it this way: it’s never a reason to turn away, but an invitation to go deeper. And dry spells and doubts do happen. But God uses those, too, to make us holy. For one thing, experiencing doubt allows us to have empathy for and provide better witness to those who are doubtful. That’s part of how the faith is lived and shared. It’s an example of how love grows.
@Darlene, I want to live there. :)
Hi BillS :)Well, I feel like a proud mother, that sees you making progress. I must be the biggest weirdo in the world because I go to mass with a kind of romantic urging. After dragging ourselves out of bed at around 6:10, my husband and I go to 7 am mass every weekday. We go to a beautiful old, classic church downtown. We really love being there together. There is such peace and simple beauty. On the days I can’t go, I always feel like something is missing. I practically feel like searching around for something until I put my finger on it, it’s a kind of mourning, almost like my heart has cooled down or isn’t there.
.
When I get home, I have a sort of mad dash to get kids off to three different schools, with packed lunches, brushed hair and teeth, and clothing that doesn’t say “raised by wolves”—but there is always a true serenity in the midst of the chaos, because He is accompanying me.
.
Yes, I prayed for you by name, there, this morning. :)
Kudos to JJO for posting a quote from the Catechism regarding how dress at Mass is meant to reflect respect, joy, and solemnity of the occasion. That’s a good rule of thumb, because it reflects balance, and it gives you a good basis if you feel that others are going to be “judging” you. It also points to what the Mass truly is, and why, therefore, we comport ourselves in this way: is your manner of dress respectful, joyful, and solemn? Does it dispose you toward humility at Mass? i.e. in all of this, does it allow me to put Jesus first, thereby making this all about Him, and not about me?
.
One thing that I find truly appalling in these discussions is that we tend to reduce all discussion of “good” clothing to “nice” clothing, “cute” clothing, and “formal” clothing. Why do we refrain from letting what the Mass actually is frame these discussions?: namely what God is doing for us at every Mass, and how we dress in a way that allows us to acknowledge that spiritual reality as well as listen to Him. That requires being humble, which is hard, especially in our self-centered culture, and it shows even here. Most of what I tend to read in a lot of these discussions tend to be mostly about “what I’m doing for God and neighbor by the way I dress”—I, I, I, me, me, me, when if we don’t have the Truth, we can womble on about respecting God and neighbor all we want, and we will do none of it well: “without Me, you can do nothing.” Maybe these discussions need to be about what our manner of dress at Mass allows us to see about what God is doing for us in the Eucharist. ...and also to accept it worthily, for after Mass, we are sent forth.
.
We can even extend our “what’s on the inside shows on the outside” discussion to the chapel veil. Chapel veils are beautiful. But one doesn’t wear a chapel veil in order to look pretty for others, hide one’s bad hair day, or show everyone how holy one is, and it is not just a sign of physical modesty, but also spiritual modesty as per one’s thoughts. One wears a chapel veil in order to learn humility before God, which is why I would encourage more women to wear them and not to be afraid of doing so (while simultaneously pointing out that no woman is required to veil, and those who don’t wish to need not pay any attention to the self-appointed Modesty Police, and at the same time, any woman who doesn’t want to veil should kindly refrain from calling it a burqa or a doily, as some have). Put Truth first, and Beauty and Goodness will follow, no? So I think that re “what’s on the inside shows on the outside,” it may well work the other way around. You know why I veil at Mass? Not because I’m holy, but because I want to be made holy so that the stupid culture doesn’t win—and I only have a fighting chance at being the wife, mother, and scholar that’s most pleasing to God if I remember Who’s truly in charge, and that I need to remain in Him. Certainly, as a woman with a ton on my plate, including a dissertation that I’m trying to finish, veiling helps, and I do it at both the TLM and the Novus Ordo, since I attend both. It also helps me both tune out and analyze a ton of cultural noise, both Catholic and secular.
.
These types of discussions also exhort us to understand that we do live in a culture that can’t tell the difference between “good” and “nice.” Those two things may converge at some points, but they are not equivalent. Furthermore, we have a lot of cultural baggage regarding “nice” and “respectable” Christianity in this country that we need to unpack and be aware of, because the Crucifix isn’t “nice.” Also, we should not transpose secular ideas of “special occasions” to the Mass, especially given that those ideas of special occasions tend to be formed by consumerism, fashion, and the market. To give you a prime example, does a seven-year-old’s First Communion dress really need to look like a bridal gown (as our hyped-up, flashy culture depicts one)? Yes, one’s First Holy Communion is a special occasion. But it is still primarily about Jesus, and not about You. Same goes for weddings: your wedding is not about you, and it is not a reflection of you being a prince and princess and the stars of the show, and it is not about “what your guests expect,” either. It’s about Jesus, and what makes us His.
.
So really, dressing in good clothes for Mass is accessible to everyone, because the Incarnation is accessible to everyone. But when we reduce discussions of good clothes to “nice” clothes and “formal” clothes, that’s where the problems start.
Bill S ,
Hello, back!
That was very sweet of you to say hello to everyone,& thank you for your civil comments in these threads.
I hope you do go back to Mass again.I know Jesus has missed you there.Being at Mass for fellowship with friends might not be the “correct” reason to be there, but it’s a good thing.I can guarantee you’ll not be the only person in the pews who questions their faith.I think we all do at some point.
Daughter of Abba: my attitude has always been similar to yours. I see God as my father. I would not show up in my father’s house with torn, stained or dirty clothes. I wouldn’t even wear sweats to my father’s house. I would, however, wear a pair of dark jeans and a clean top. I understand that unlike my earthly father, my Heavenly father is king. But again, his kingdom is not of this world, and is not limited by our cultural standards of fashion and formality.
Wsquared: thank you for your kind words. (I just now saw your comment, so I guess it was held overnight in spam limbo!) Yes, I will pray about this. One of my Advent goals was to get to adoration more often (this goal for me is a higher priority than how I dress). This Saturday is Nocturnal Adoration, and Saturday is looking like a crazy day for my family. If I were to take the time to dress up, I probably wouldn’t end up having time to go. After reading a lot of these comments, I was going to just throw in the towel and skip it. It is daunting to think that there could be people there judging me as some people here seem to. But I think I will try to go, even if I don’t end up having time to dress up. Maybe it will be a humbling experience.
Ada: point well taken about the blanket statements keeping things from getting too personal. I honestly never thought of it that way.
Bill: good to see you over here. I agree with Debbie. There is no rule that an unbeliever can’t go to Mass.
Darlene: wow. Your story just floors me. I could understand that type of a reaction if women were showing cleavage, or men were wearing stained undershirts. But like you said, to complain about Bermuda shorts in a parish that has accomplished so much? Unbelievable.
Truly no offense meant Claire. Sometimes in any discussions people make blanket statements exactly so that things don’t get personal and stay general.
I myself am trying to discern my own ulterior motivations for my position. At my advanced age and odd physique, vanity is a lot less of an issue then pride or just plain habit (I was brought up that way). May God burn away my faults so that I may come closer to him.
One thing I think all Christians can agree on is that God deserves our honor and respect. How we do this may vary. One way to do this is how we clothe ourselves (body, mind, and spirit) at Mass.
Bill - go - maybe you are not being tempted - but prompted.
I felt this way before ever going to daily Masses. I kept feeling drawn…but I’d never wake up in time. One day, I just felt so compelled to go so I went…I hadn’t showered - I pulled on jeans and whatever top and went—I was 10 minutes late—to a DAILY what, like 20 minute Mass?
Imagine what I looked like at Mass—but I knew what a feat it was that I was there! What a joy! Sometimes, with 5 little ones…it was all I could do to just get there…so what? Go! I wanted to dress nice for Mass and eventually I did. Baby steps. First, I just worried about getting there—then took little steps to improve (whatever it is—dress, patience, prayer, etc.) God is ever so patient. The changes I have made to my external and internal appearance before God has changed my attitude—I will never measure up to our awesome God- but He loves me so much anyways and gives abundant Grace for me to continue to grow. Faith or no faith…maybe going to Mass will change your attitude about your faith. It is God who will give you that gift - so might as well go to Him and be open to receive it. Thanks for posting. :-)
There really hasn’t been an opportune time to join this conversation but I wanted to say hi to Claire, Anna Lisa and Kathleen. I’ve made friends with a group in their seventies (I’m 60) who dress up nice and go to mass every day. They are the nicest people and I wouldn’t dare tell them how drastically my world view has changed. I work at home and don’t dress up at all. I have a great respect for those who do dress up for mass and I do when I go to Saturday mass with my wife. I miss the days when I used to dress up and go to mass every morning and I am almost tempted to do it, faith or no faith.
If someone called you lazy and disrespectful for dressing informally (and I’m not talking about sloppily), you might be defensive too.
I already know that our attitudes and efforts matter to God. What I’m saying is that dressing informally doesn’t necessarily mean a bad attitude or lack of effort. And dressing formally does always involve effort, but it doesn’t automatically guarantee a good attitude. I have nothing against those in the “Sunday Best” camp per se, and am happy to learn about their experiences and consider whether they might work for me. It’s the blanket judgments that are a turn-off.
That being said, I will take your challenge at some point during Advent.
Here is a little story that offers my whole perspective on this “what to wear to Mass” argument (me, I personally wear neat sweaters and tops with dark jeans and boots in the winter, neat mid-sleeved tops with dark pants or jeans in the summer—I look and feel terrible in dress clothes and so don’t wear them).
But here is my story:
I belong to a large, thriving parish in a coastal town in the Carolinas. Unlike many parishes in the Northeast, our parish is booming—more than 3,000 members, a parish elementary school with mile long waiting list, dozens of ministries, thriving RCIA program,perpetual Adoration, you name it. It’s awesome.
Our parish is about half young families who have moved into the area and half retirees who moved down from Pa., New York, Michigan, New Jersey, etc. The retirees are the lifeblood of the parish.
In the past year, our parish completed a building campaign and was able to build a beautiful, traditional style church that seats more than 900 people. This summer we held a dedication ceremony for the church. Might I add that the building is PAID FOR. This parish, led by the retirees, has NO DEBT on this new building.
While walking into the ceremony, I ran into my former parish priest, who lives inland and was attending the ceremony. His comment to me? Not about the beautifiul new building, the amazing fact we were debt free, the growth of this parish, etc etc. No: “I can’t BELIEVE what some of these people are wearing.”
He gestured toward many of the retired couples, who were walking in. many of the ladies in cropped pants and short sleeved tops, some of the elderly men in khakis, jeans and yes, even Bermuda shorts.
Now obviously this guy has never lived on the coast and doesn’t understand how some retirees dress, and you can have your opinions on what people should wear to church no matter their status in life but REALLY? REALLY? This priest attending a milestone event for one of the largest, thriving, vibrant parishes in our diocese and he’s going to criticize the CLOTHES ON THE BACKS OF THOSE ATTENDING?
It completely turned me off. I was glad to go inside the church and be with my fellow parishioners and celebrate what we had accomplished. But I was angry and wonder how many fellow people in the pews are as judgmental as this particular priest was. Are we really going to belittle people who are so obviously dedicated to their faith just because they walk into a church in a pair of Bermuda shorts?
It’s the fact the people are in the pews that counts. Nothing else.
I have a experiment that commenters on both side of the issue might try.
For one Mass those in the “Sunday Best” camp (I include myself) wear something that is very very unattractive on you, no makeup. Men could try wearing something slightly clownish. This may allow God to show us how much our vanity is a factor and how much is to give honor and glory to God.
Those is the “I have my reasons and God understands because I’m not a showoff” (please don’t take offense but you know you can be very defensive) try for one Mass to take care and the time needed to wear something special. Imagine you were meeting a person you were in love with and greatly respect. This may allow you to see the point the other camp is making that God may not care what we wear but our efforts and attitudes matter greatly.
Jennifer, your make s good case for dressing nicely, to an appropriate degree, without judging others. I have a different perspective to offer,but it is absolutely not because I believe you are wrong.
I have struggled to view God as “Abba”. My father abandoned our family when I was young, and I lost faith in God soon afterward, at age nine. When we had our first child, I wanted to teach him the truth, so I prayed and studied and tried to find out whether or not God existed, and if so, what to do about it. That eventually led to my conversion to Catholicism, and my then protestant husband’s as well.
I struggled with a fear of God. Not an appropriate awe, but a fear which crippled me.
As I became more and more comfortable with God, developing a closer relationship with Him where I felt more like a daughter of Abba, I began to feel a lot more comfortable wearing regular clothes to Mass. I do not mean torn or stained clothing, but simply a nice pair of pants and a nice sweater.
I do NOT suggest that ladies who wear dresses are wrong, or lack closeness to God. Not at all!!!!! I happen to feel comfortable in everyday clothes such as pants and sweaters. I feel stiff, formal, and not like myself in dresses. Some ladies feel great in dresses and skirts, and that might make them feel closer to God when they attend Mass.
“feeling superior because she wasn’t concerned how she dressed”: I’ve never heard of feeling superior about not being concerned about clothing, but certainly feeling superior in that direction or feeling superior about dressing up is unChristian and inappropriate.
There are all kinds of ways to prepare for Mass. One of which is preparing your heart, and that doesn’t have to mean dressing up. My almost 5-year old wears dark jeans, a nice shirt and clean sneakers (currently his only pair of shoes) to Mass. He looks adorable, and he loves Mass and pretends to be a priest at home all the time. He is always one of the best behaved kids at Mass. These generalizations don’t always hold up…
Ages ago in Envoy someone wrote about going to Spain and feeling superior because she wasn’t concerned how she dressed….gradually she realized that in their culture, dressing well to go out was a sign of respect for the people around you, and boy did she feel pretty ridiculous about her ‘superior’ ability to go out in public in sweats, etc… I’ve never forgotten that article,though I wish I could remember the author, and it has helped me get over the constant slouchiness of dress (Sunday and every day) that was my habit. I love seeing everyone at Mass, no matter what they’re wearing, but it delights me to see people who are contributing to the ‘high tone’ by dressing well. PJ bottoms, immodesty, flip-flops do distract me….and frankly, very few backs of knees are attractive!
We have always dressed up for Mass, if you can really call it “dressing up”—it’s really just wearing special set of clothes for a special occasion (and, yes, Mass is a special occasion). These special clothes say that what we are going to do is more important than what I was doing before church. My boys wear Docker style pants with a belt, a collared shirt, and nice shoes. Dressing up makes it clear to them that Mass is special. How can we expect our children to realize the miracle that is the sacrifice of the Mass if we treat it like just another activity in our day, preparing ourselves no differently for Mass than we do for watching TV?
When I was growing up, new clothes were always worn for the first time to Sunday Mass. The idea is by doing that, God blesses the new clothes. I am 71 now and I still keep that tradition. Dressing up or down for Mass is no problem for me. My favorite outfit, everyday of the week, consists of pressed, starched khaki pants and long sleeve shirts, rolled up to the elbows during summer and worn with a sweater during winter. No sports jacket or suits for me, they make me look geeky (geekier?).
And BTW, when referring to the Liturgy, please write it as Mass to differentiate it from its other meanings spelled with a small m, such as mass of flesh, mass appeal, mass demonstration, etc. By spelling it with a capital M, we are also giving special recognition to the word that relates to our Lord’s Supper.
Anna Lisa: thank you.
Ellen: yes, I actually subscribe to one of the blogs that participates in the “what I wore Sunday” posts. I will admit that when I first saw the headline I was a little taken aback, but I knew the blogger (Kathryn Whitaker) would only be doing it out of good intentions, so I read on and saw that it was for the purpose of encouragement. I think it’s a great thing, and I think this is a very good article. It’s just some of the comments that I find to be hurtful. But thankfully there have been plenty of supportive ones too.
@Claire you are completely beautiful. No doubt about it.
Diane, re that little girl and an earlier comment that I made about our prayers for modesty helping re God changing people: well, God sure used that little girl that day to change some hearts and minds. :)
Claire, it saddens me to read that you are personally hurt by some of these comments because of difficulty with your body image and finding flattering things to wear. I hear ya sister! I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that most women have these same struggles! Incidentally, have you looked at the What I Wore Sunday posts and links? The whole point of the link up is to encourage one another in dressing nicely for Mass, and the women who link up are from many different walks of life, are all different ages, are all shapes and sizes and have their own unique styles. With such diversity in women and with the common theme of looking nice for Mass, one can find inspiration to try certain items of clothing, different color combinations or just trying wearing necklaces and earrings for a change. The point is to be encouraging of one another :) God Bless!
Claire, please don’t sweat it, and please don’t feel as though you “can’t leave the house” due to hurtful comments, okay? If this is giving you anxiety, then by all means, pray about it. Prayer isn’t just petitioning God, but praise and gratitude, and it’s also part of how He’ll train you to see broader and deeper. Because that’s what happens with grace, and how it can and does provide a feedback loop for us. I’ve had long years of struggling with my appearance, too—and yeah, that continued right up to and including wedding-dress-shopping, too (about one of the worst times, in the most culturally conditioned sense, to feel that sort of anxiety as well as all kinds of emotional baggage from one’s past in that regard. Yech.). All of that also happened about the time I was also having a conversion experience when I was coming back to the Church. Tons of the stuff that I fretted about, from my ring to my dress to this, that, and the other thing what helped most was putting God and the Mass first (everything really did fall into place, and I was enabled to see it as such). That way, He trained—and is training—me to think more in terms of non-negotiables lived out and to learn to be grateful for the way He made me. It’s still a learning process that happens bit by bit, but what I have found is that away went a lot of the anxiety that I used to have, and part of why that’s the case is that what comes with the territory is that one learns to have confidence that one will figure it out eventually—that one will become enabled to be resource-savvy on a material and spiritual matter in this regard. And that will unfold with time with the Lord’s help. There’s something that Msgr. Charles Pope once wrote at the Archdiocese of Washington blog that pertains to “God will provide” that also pertains to clothing: that when He provides for us, He either gives us more of something, or enables us to want less, or words to that effect. That struck me, and has stuck with me, particularly as I’ve seen it at work in my own life. Plus, I think that way too many times, we shoot ourselves in the foot when we see dressing well as a matter of vanity or not, and fashion, whereby even “nice clothes” can have a very shiny sense to it in a superficial and plasticky way. Instead, dressing in good clothing can and should be a way of humbly saying “thank you” to God, as should everything in our lives. God bless you, Claire, and may you find what you’re looking for, both in terms of God’s healing grace, and also clothing that flatters you.
I just skimmed through the comments, and for some reason, the thought of a little troupe of children, playing “dress up,” with dirty faces came to mind. We must simply delight Him when we’re there, earnestly trying to do our best.
.
Last summer, we were driving away from the church parking lot. I cracked up and pointed at a couple on the sidewalk. “Oh my gosh, look at that couple!” I sniggered. They were both short, plump and had crazy looking dreadlocks. Hers stuck out about four inches from her head and were bleached. They wore wife beaters and their arms were covered with tattoos.
.
My husband glared at me for laughing, and said “They were at mass you know.” I felt like a creep in a cute outfit with proper heels.
Jenni: I agree with your take on what Jennifer was trying to communicate in this article. I didn’t find her article to be judgmental at all, nor did I disagree with what she said. Her experience is valuable, and it is certainly worth people considering whether it might be something for them to try as well. But yes, some of the comments here have gone too far.
Posted by Jenni helgoth on Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 4:57 PM (EDT):Wow! I am stunned. I am so sorry Jennifer that your article has been hijacked by people being judgemental.”
*******************************
I actually am happy to see most comments being reasonable & helpful.Usually any thread about dress or modesty devolves into a contest of who’s practising modestly the most rigorously & then self destructs.
I’m with Sarah M and Christina. Mass with small kids is an endurance test. I can’t put too much effort into my appearance. I’ll wear nice pants and a top instead of jeans or shorts and a top, but that’s about it. And makeup? Are you kidding me? :-p It will be nice when the kids are older and I actually have the time and energy to dress nicer.
Wow! I am stunned. I am so sorry Jennifer that your article has been hijacked by people being judgemental.
I THINK Jennifer’s article is about how Jennifer’s heart was changed into dressing in a different way. I THINK Jennifer was suggesting that others may want to consider her thoughts on the matter.
I do not think Jennifer meant you are a bad person if you don’t agree.
Most matters of faith are personal. Whether the person beside m is going to heaven is only my buisness in regards to whether I have in a loving way shared the Truth with them. I capitalize Truth for a reason. God is Truth. Not what I wear. Our society does not seem to give honor any more in dress (whether to Mass, out to eat, ....) Remember when men wore suits when they traveled via airplane, train… We just don’t do it. Yesterday I took my children to a nice restaurant for lunch. They were very well behaved. They aren’t in chick filet. You know why? People spoke quiter, they dressed nicer, there was flatwear on the table… We as humans respond to our surroundings. This includes clothes. It isn’t always instant esecially if we aren’t use to dresing up and if we feel forced into doing it (just ask my children). But in the long run it does make a difference. It has to be you that makes the decision for you. Jennifer can’t (doesn’t seem to be trying to) and neither can other commentors. My two cents.
Thank you Kris. And, if it’s any consolation, I would be willing to bet that your backside probably looks much better than mine in both pants and dresses! One reason why I find some of these comments so hurtful is that I am struggling very much with my appearance, and it’s a challenge to find anything that is semi-flattering to wear to Mass (or anywhere else). And then I come here and see how judgmental some Catholic Christians are toward people’s appearances, and it makes me reluctant to even leave the house.
Lorraine - your statement only mattered in the moment I read it; you mentioned it again so I merely commented back to you. Blessings and peace to you as well.
Claire - thank you, you said so eloquently what I’ve been trying to say so haltingly.
WSquared: thank you for a thoughtful and balanced comment.
No, what’s in the heart is not automatically visible in the outside appearance. A formal, modest outfit does not guarantee a heart that’s in the right place, and a semi-casual modest/neat/clean/unstained/untorn outfit is not necessarily evidence that the heart is not in the right place. Someone’s words, actions, attitudes and judgments are a much better guage of where their heart is. If it were so easy to judge people’s hearts just by looking at them, we wouldn’t need God to be our judge. We could just point at people and know instantly who’s going to Heaven and who’s going to Hell, who’s a good Christian and who’s not. If only it were that easy.
Kris, why does it matter to you so much? You can wear what you want. Honest. I personally don’t think women should wear pants, but that is my opinion. We are free to choose.
Have a blessed Advent, Kris, and God bless you!
Lorraine - please tell me about my rash judgments. I really want to know because I see my comment trying to see both sides of this issue. And I still find your original comment offensive; I don’t know how you think I read more into your original comment than was there. It’s pretty blatant how you feel about women who wear pants.
Kris, your own comment is not only judgmental but has a rash judgment or two in it as well. You sure did read an awful lot into my comment that wasn’t there. Please be careful.
Your rear end doesn’t offend me in the least. Honest!
Kris,
No I hear you & agree, but-unrelated to church attire- I also can’t honestly say I don’t agree with the other poster’s comment about women taking a rearview look in the mirror sometimes.
“...when our heart is in the right place it shows on the outside.” And where does it say that means you have to be dressed to the nines. My husband and I always dress nicely for Mass; our dearest friends don’t. So by this definition their heart isn’t in the right place, yet I know them to be in their right, spiritual mind with everything they do. They are my role models in faith yet they sometimes dress as if they just came in from doing yardwork. Of course we are all entitled to our opinions; I just find this whole must-dress-nicely-at-Mass-or-your-heart-isn’t-in-it to be a tad bit judgemental. But then again perhaps me sharing my contrary opinion could be seen as being judgmental to those who don’t agree. Well…no one ever said being Christian was easy. :-)
I realize I am a little late to the party but… I have a book I read to my kids about Mass that Amy Welborn wrote. It talks about visiting the king. In light of last Sunday’s feast, I would never wear anything “frumpy” to meet a king. I would never just throw on something that looked ok, especially if I have something that looks great. My husband always plans his clothes. We have been married for 12 years. I just realized this last week. I guess I am just slow. Time to dress for the king. Oh and in response to the heart matters more than apperance, when our heart is in the right place it shows on the outside.
I started dressing up modestly for Mass this summer—including hat—and oh, my goodness, I’ve gotten such positive comments. I’m trying to encourage others to do the same. I have also began a Sunday dress code for the RCIA families I teach—since we attend Mass together once a month. The kids enjoy ‘dressing up’ for Mass. Not a single complaint.
Something just occurred to me regarding dressing for Mass, wherein what we wear is part of our worship, because we worship God with our bodies as well. Namely, that when we reduce these discussions to dressing casually or formally, we are in danger of missing many a point. While there is nothing wrong with wearing something nice to Mass, it is also easy to go overboard, too. And I do wonder if we are in danger of doing this in part because we think of worship as mostly “praise,” and Mass as “us praising God” instead of “God saving us”? In dressing modestly, we do it to “decrease, so that the Lord may increase.” Both “nice” clothing that is nonetheless ostentatious and immodest clothing that leaves nothing to the imagination detracts from that. Sorry, but comparing the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass—the Wedding Feast of the Lamb—to a dinner party, whereby if Mass were truly important to us, we’d be wearing ballgowns and tuxedos to Mass (as I read in one combox comment on a different site) is a little off, I think: this may be our cultural shorthand for Dressing Up Because This Is Something Important, but something more is at stake when it comes to Mass (we might also ask ourselves about the origins of our cultural assumptions, therefore. Hint: NOT the Catholic Church and Catholic tradition). Mass is a joyous celebration, but that joy and our hope was bought at the price of Christ on the Cross, and we are only worthy to share in the richness of the banquet by our own sacrifices joined to His. That said, one needn’t make it a point of coming to Mass in something that’s overly plain, either, thinking that we’re necessarily being pure by doing so. And we are there in contemplative and solemn silence, not because we are cold, lifeless, and sour, but because in order to hear God and let Him fill us up, we need to be still. Here, we can take our cue from the Blessed Mother: my soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God, my Savior.
I also like Jane’s suggestions that sure, we may not like the way someone else is dressing, but it’s far better to offer up thanks that they’re there at Mass at all while nonetheless acknowledging that a lack of awareness in the modesty department is indeed problematic. The point is that everyone is in a different place on the way to conversion, and ultimately, they have to let God change them and work in their hearts. Our prayers can and do help. Forcibly changing them is not for us to do though there may be modest modesty guidelines (like a friendly message in the bulletin: “we’re coming upon the Summer months. Please dress modestly out of respect for Our Lord” or that the Vatican just requires that you cover up certain areas for the same reason): so no, for example, women should not be wearing short-shorts and low-cut blouses with spaghetti straps at Mass, but no, women should not be forced to wear only skirts, either. And no, men should not be wearing ripped jeans or slacks where we can see skin and underwear. But a nice shirt and khakis are more than okay. And modest dress can indeed be approached with both charity and levity in homilies, as Fr. Trigilio has done (he also talks about “leaving Mass early” in that one)—without any overly zealous help from any self-appointed Modesty Police. And Dave Brandt, priests are not just “dressing formally,” they are “putting on Christ” in a particular way as per their specific calling, and as per their state in life. A priest wears a cassock or clerics because he has been chosen and set apart by Christ for something particular, namely to share in the priesthood of Christ the High Priest. That priesthood of Christ is therefore made visible to us in our now. We the laity, on the other hand, need only be respectful, modest (inside and out), and to reflect in our dress and comportment that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is actually important—if not of utmost importance—to us, because it nourishes and reorients body and spirit, both.
Sorry Sydeny, proclaiming standards of formality for other people is self-righteous, judgmental and has an attitude of superiority. As is presuming that people who don’t dress formally are lazy, as some of the comments stated. No, I don’t go to dinner parties or Mass (or anywhere else) in unwashed clothes, torn clothes or stained clothes. When I visit my Father in Mass, I dress neatly but not necessarily formally. Meaning that I might wear a pair dark fitted jeans but would not wear sweats. How about people discern what’s right for them without criticizing others, unless they’re being blatantly disrespectful? That’s what Jennifer did in this article. She shared how she had been convicted, without judging others.
Debbie, all of your points are excellent. And I think that how we can “revolutionize the fashion world,” as it were, is to take a page from the Scriptural reading that “work is made for man, not man for work.” Well, that can be paraphrased for clothing, too: clothes were made for man, not man for clothes. How many times do we “buy the stuff” ourselves, because we think it’ll improve us in some way or make us more “acceptable” or “desirable”? Of course, there is nothing wrong with improvement, but we can certainly be short-sighted or our visions distorted when it comes to that which needs improving, wherein self-improvement and respectability become an end in itself and the counter-cultural message of the Gospel with the tension that comes with the Cross become lost. So it’s not just about fashion, but about attitude—both toward clothing and also toward ourselves. And right attitudes require right orientation, and also the right metric—namely God’s, not ours. Knowing what works best with what you’ve got and that is modest so that you keep your mind on God is actually to enable ourselves and others to think bigger. And that, among many reasons, is why Catholicism actually has something very potent to offer, and why we should also remember that authentic Catholic Christianity is so much more than just the “nice, respectable Christianity” that our popular culture often gives us.
Kathleen - my shock at Lorraine’s comment wasn’t about the pants/no pants argument; I just found it so ... judgmental. I haven’t worn a dress in years due to physical problems; so if my body isn’t compatible with pants and I offend someone’s sensibilities, like Lorraine, then what do I do. I can’t wear skirts or dresses. Frankly, all this obssessing over what we or others wears to church really doesn’t address the fundamental truth: the fact that we all make the effort to be in God’s presence is really the only thing that should matter. If some make more of an effort than others - I don’t think it makes them better than others. I see the same people at Mass each week and some clearly don’t make the effort - for whatever reason - but I know their hearts and their love of God and their respect for the Eucharist is pure & genuine. While I agree that it is a sign of respect for being in the presence of God, isn’t it respectful to be there and be present in heart & mind?
When we were members of the Orthodox Christian Church, I decided to try wearing skirts and modest shirts. I didn’t veil in church, though; very few in our church did. What I found was that I attracted more attention wearing long skirts than I ever had wearing jeans and shirts. I kept getting compliments over and over from our nice elderly neighbor (often he would tell me “how feminine” i looked, in front of his wife). Because I had three boys back then, that added to the comments and attention…finally I realized that MY definition of modest is, what will cause me to draw the least attention to myself? The answer was, the basic SAHM uniform of jeans and a modest shirt. I still prefer long sleeved shirts, and will pair a short sleeved tee shirt with a button down or cardigan.
As for Lorraine’s comment about how our backsides look in pants, well, if I look horrible I figure people will look away, won’t they? Which is what I’m going for. I don’t want people admiring my backside. And why would I want to go out and observe other women’s backsides anyway? There is such a thing as “custody of the eyes” and we would all do well to practice it. When I go to Mass I try to look neat and unobtrusive so I don’t distract others from prayer. If I wore a mantilla or a prayer veil at our modern parish, I’d get a lot of stares and I would distract folks, and that would be a shame.
A couple of years ago there was a little girl at mass all dressed up and just before the sign of peace, Msgr asked her in front of 1,000 people (we have a vibrant parish) why she was so dressed up - when he gave her the mic she said, “I wanted to look my best for Jesus.” People at our parish have been dressing better for mass ever since.
Kris,
Yes, I know the whole britches/anti-britches arguement inside & out.There’s no right or wrong answer, but I think Lorraine’s comment’s still true as far as the visual aspect goes.Many women have an incompatible anatomy.But it’s a free country.Goodness knows, some men make poor fashion choices, too.
:)
Well, “Sunday Best” is at the very least modest, and not just “nice” clothing, or even “finery” as such (though to some degree, it can and does include these things, though it never should to the point of being outrageous). It is *good* clothing, prudently purchased and cared for, which is manageable even for people who are poor: what, after all, constitutes “good” clothing? That which is “fancy” and “fashionable”? Or something that actually complements and compliments what God has given you, wherein you have spent the contents of your purse, no matter how small, wisely? Given that thrifting tends to be quite popular, training the eye and the senses to recognize what works and what doesn’t, thereby working with what you got, is a learning process that is in reach of everyone. This is not just about money, but about balance.
Indeed, what does matter most is what’s in the heart—a humble and contrite heart, after all, the Lord does not spurn. But this isn’t just about the spirit detached or severed from the rest of us, for Catholics believe we are both matter and spirit. And since it is both an ongoing challenge as well as a consistently developing source of strength as regards nurturing one’s faith to “love the Lord with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself,” one really is called to know, love, and serve the Lord with everything one has, and everything that one has been given. So to *some* extent, discussions about glossy externals camouflaging a rotten heart are well taken, but up to a point, they can be a little unhelpful: it’s also possible to be disingenuous and careless in one’s casualness while hiding behind “God accepts me just the way I am; I can dress however the heck I want! And at least I’m not like one of those judgmental, uppity people who wear nice clothes, but who are probably really rotten inside!” ...now, how are thoughts or sentiments like that not in themselves rotten? They can certainly pertain to false humility. Elitist anti-elitism always does, and is its very own brand of uppity.
So I would posit that Sunday Best isn’t primarily about what’s finery versus what’s casual to the point of being either ostentatiously vain or complacently sloppy, but what is modest while appreciating how God has made you (so there’s nothing wrong at all with wearing something nice!) but also what promotes humility and glorifying the Lord—and that if you know from doing an examination of conscience that you’re far from doing things for the right reasons but want to, ask the Lord to enlighten you in these areas. That’s how we learn. Some people’s “finery” and “nice clothes” can be immodest, indeed. And other people assume that their adherence to modesty and yes, dressing up for Mass, means that they can and should beat other people over the head with it. Attitude does matter, but the catch regarding “what’s in the heart” is always orientation: whether you “dress up” really nicely for Mass or if you don’t, the question is still relevant cutting both ways: are you doing this for the Lord, or are you making this All About You? The Mass is the most important prayer—and public prayer at that—in any Catholic’s life. And one should dress to reflect that. But it is also true that all the glory goes to God, and not just to one’s self. Just be decent, prudent, and pure in your motives, don’t sweat it, and away you go.
“Posted by Lorraine on Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 8:10 PM (EDT):I stopped wearing pants sixteen years ago and never looked back.
Ladies, do yourself a favor. The next time you are out and about, observe the back sides of women in pants. You, too, may give up wearing them after witnessing such a thing.”
Wow. I don’t know what to say to that.
I love your articles Jennifer. I think her point was not about what other people wore but how what she chose to wear influenced herand her relationship to God.
It reminded of a quote/poem from Mother Theresa (well worth goggling) about the things that we do, and the attitudes that we take, that ends:
“For you see, in the end, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway”
In this frame it is important what we wear.
Pointing out a need to dress up for Holy Mass isn’t “using this article as an excuse to be self-righteous”. That is always the defense of those that feel they’re being “called out”.
I’m only 34 but have lived in 5 states and overseas. With 34 years of Sunday Mass attendance what I have observed is that informal/casual dress has less to do with the region or demographics and more to do with the personal standards of the individual.
Some people do not enjoy and therefore do not own clothing that is formal, holds a press, requires dry cleaning, etc. I am not referring to the poor, who must meet basic needs before clothing choices are made. I’m referring to the middle class—who do have options on what they spend their time and money on.
Some people don’t believe that people communicate visually I think. It’s not about judgement, I look at what someone is wearing to collect data, to see if they are in an authority position (uniformed police, doctor’s white coat, preistly vestmants) and I look at people’s clothing as their way of communicating to me if they believe something is important. When I have people over to my house for dinner I would be offended if they came in unwashed clothes or their soccer field clothes. A dinner party is special so most people clean up and dress up a little. An invitation to a wedding, a beautiful sacrament, requires nicer clothes—if nothing else as a gift to the new couple that you respect their invitation.
Clothes do communicate and that’s if you like it or not. It’s self-righteous to use this article to say otherwise;)
Peggi ,
It might depend on the ethnicity of the Catholics, though. At Spanish Masses I’ve seen Hispanic parishoners dressed up in their best attire. Ditto for the black Catholic churches here.I live in the Deep South & even our very small, rural parish still has two churches, one black, one white.The black congregation has a hugely better choir.They tend to dress up for Mass more.The white congregation pretty much dresses respectfully.We have a lttle sign outside asking for modest dress.Maybe that has helped.
The way I dress for mass has evolved over time (in just a very brief time of the past 3 years). What changed the way I thought about modesty at the Holy Mass was reading Corinthians and also the writings of St. Padre Pio on what he considered “acceptable”...
“By Padre Pio’s explicit wish, women must enter the confessional wearing skirts
AT LEAST 8 INCHES BELOW THE KNEE. IT IS FORBIDDEN TO BORROW LONGER DRESSES IN CHURCH AND TO WEAR THEM TO CONFESSION.”
After coming across this, while having a deep respect for his suggestions I decided to change what I wore. I bought a couple of maxi skirts and started covering my arms as well. I also prayed about “veiling” shortly after this, and after reading Corinthians (again) and much prayer… I started to veil as well. At the time I didn’t know anyone else who veiled or dressed in this way, I just felt called to do it. I was also very nervous about veiling for awhile, since I was the only one at my parish. Praise God I had a very supportive priest and positive comments from those around me.
I have to say that this practice has REALLY changed me. I am more focused at mass and I’m also becoming more aware of my modesty outside of the Church. The biggest problem I faced is that most of my wardrobe consisted of tight, lowcut shirts and tight pants. I am very blessed that after 3 kids I have a “rockin body”, but now that is only for my husband to see, not everyone else.
My rules now:
If I am going to be in a Church for any reason (even teaching catechism) I…
1. Wear a maxi skirt with stockings
2. closed toe shoes. If there is a heel, it must be “short” and not distracting (I usually wear ballet flats)
3. arms covered (I used to live in Phoenix, and yes, even in 115 degrees, you can throw on a very light, long sleeved shirt before entering (most places have air conditioning and if priests can wear cassocks in the heat all day, I can endure it for a little while)
4. scapular rule-if you can see my scapular in any way the shirt is too low, or neck is too wide
5. Veiling- there is a veil in my car at all times (just in case). If I find myself going to a very “liberal” parish, where I may already be stared at for my over modest dress, I’ll wear a wide scarf on my head, or a hat. I don’t want to be too much of a distraction.
Outside of church…
1. If I’m questioning if it’s modest, it’s probably not. No tight or low cut shirts.
2. pants are ok, but if they’re tight, my butt must be covered by a shirt or sweater
3. no shorts (unless I’m at the gym, but they’re longer), capris work great when it’s hot
3. scapular rule applies here too
Let me add that I have a 6 month old (who is still nursing), a 2 year old and a 3 year old. I can spend 15 minutes of my life to prepare for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is the most important even on Earth and I want to show respect in this way.
When I first applied these rules to myself there was a big problem. I had a TON of clothes that I would no longer be able to wear. I have 3 kids, so I don’t have a ton of money to spend on my own clothes (I’m also a SAHM). But, one day I decided to check out the local Goodwill and what do you know?... I pays to be countercultural!!! All those modest shirts and long skirts aren’t really “in”. :) Therefore, I was able to spend about $50-75 (over a couple trips) and buy 5 long skirts, 10+ modest sweaters (we moved back to MI recently and I have no warm clothes) and a dozen modest shirts (8 of them are from Banana Republic… look like they were worn only a couple times). Oh, and a pair of small heeled, black dress boots (looked brand new) for $6.
Now, I don’t want to act like I’m holier than thou. This is what works for ME. I don’t think a woman who wears pants to mass is doing anything wrong. I don’t think everyone should veil, only those who WANT to (or what’s the purpose?). It’s my sin if I am judging others’ dress at mass (even though seeing cleavage has sent me to confession a few times.. that just bothers me while at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass). I am around young adults quite often (since I am a catechist), so just sending a positive example of how to dress (without saying a word) is just another reason to continue to dress this way.
I hope more pray about this and find what works for them. God bless!
I’d be happy if we could just get the teenage girls to wear something besides skin-tight jeans/leggings.
I remember when working in the hospital on Sundays when families would come to visit patients- we could tell the Religion of the visitors by their attire. Baptists would come in “dressed to the gills”- I remember one little boy in a Tuxedo- he was only 3! But Catholics looked like they rolled out of bed-an absolute mess. Yes there were occasional exceptions- but not many. And others were on the scale too but Baptists were the best, Catholics the worst. Very sad
Yes, Jesus is king. His kingdom is not of this world, and is not subject to our cultural standards of formality and fashion. Just because someone isn’t dressed formally doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re dressed sloppy or immodestly. For the people here who seem to enjoy categorizing others as lazy or disrespectful for not wearing formal clothing to Mass, I’m happy for that you’ve found a way to use this article to help you feel superior and self-righteous. I wonder how our king would feel about that?
And by the way, I personally think my time is better spent on activities other than ironing shirts that aren’t wrinkled to begin with.
I have a challenge for those of you who are kvetching about the supposed immodesty of the ladies participating in the link-up: come join us on Sunday in your church finery and chapel veils and show us how it’s done! We’d *love* to see you.
I was brought up to dress for church, and if I am going to see the King of Glory at Mass (I am Catholic now) - and he is King all the time, even if we don’t talk about it every week - I think ironed shirts and well fitting skirts or slacks (or even pretty dresses) are the least we can do. In fact, for my money, ironed and well fitting clothes are always appropriate, even for dissidents and/or revolutionaries, if there are any of those hanging around any more. I like being taken seriously, and even understood, and dressing like a slob is counter productive, no matter where I am. I really do know Jesus is more likely to understand and take me seriously than any one else, so how I dress won’t make the difference to him it makes with others. But still… he is the King, right?
One more thought. Lorraine wrote earlier: “Ladies…the next time you are out and about, observe the back sides of women in pants. You, too, may give up wearing them after witnessing such a thing.” She addresses only women with that comment - but why act like feminists and leave the men out of it? I mean, seriously, next time you’re out, scrutinize some male backsides…from the ones that look a little *too* good in their pants (so that you have to look away), to the ones that make you gag in revulsion (so that you have to look away). See? Now, tell me honestly after this exercise if you don’t think good old-fashioned KILTS ought to make a comeback! C’mon, guys, did JESUS wear pants?
If the priest dresses in a specific and formal outfit, why shouldn’t we?
I think that it is essential to dress with modesty when going to church. I personally also cover my head with a veil. Never have a low cut blouse etc. Modesty, modesty, modesty. We are going to the house of the Lord and we should think how would Blessed Mother would dress to go to church? Of course in our present time. This makes the whole difference. You will not drive attention to your self, you will not be distracted about how is the dress looking and how you are looking in the dress what will allow you to concentrate in the important fact. Jesus, the Mass, the Liturgy, the Holy Eucharist. That will also set an example for the young ladies attending.
Our family of eight aims for “tidy” - with as much formality as the week’s clean laundry and the limited budget can muster. My sons all know to wear a collared shirt to Mass, with dress pants or at least clean, unripped jeans. Plus I always make them comb their hair… My daughters (both young) usually wear dresses anyway - so that’s easy. My husband has a standard pairing of dress pants and blazer with varying dress shirts. I wear…whatever I feel like! Sometimes it’s just nice jeans with a blouse and pearl beads (and I just ain’t ashamed). Sometimes it’s my best high-fashion (secondhand) dress and heels. Mostly it’s something in the middle. The only time I really feel awkward is when my judgement call at home - “yes, this outfit is modest enough for Mass” - proves to be erroneous… I do HATE that, and feel miserable the whole time! And, yes, I do pay attention to what other people wear, because I love clothes, but it’s not in an “oh-how-horrible-to-wear-that-to-visit-Our-Lord” kind of way. Though I am evilly judgemental about many things (pray for me!), I think I do manage to assume the best of everyone’s outfits at Mass - cutting them the same slack I hope they offer me and my struggling family!
Amen Jane! I always appreciate your contributions to these threads.
Debbie: thanks for some much-needed comic relief!
(note-I am NOT contributing to the pants/skirt debate with this comment!!!!)
I made a conscious decision to only wear skirts or dresses to Sunday Mass seven years ago in college. I felt the Holy Spirit prompting me to take the plunge. It was hard at first-but now it’s freeing. I always feel like I wore something “special” because I don’t generally wear skirts during the week. And it automatically limits my options-which forces me to be ok wearing the same outfits over and over again.
I agree-the right clothes make it so much easier to focus at Mass.
If we keep the focus on ourselves, and what we are wearing and why, then we won’t have time to hone in on others in the pews and evaluate what they are wearing and why. I have done it both ways…my Sunday best…and then, at times, dressed down and feeling grateful even to make it to church at all. Thankfully, we worship a God who accepts our offerings because of what he sees in our hearts. And if we are even the slightest tempted to turn down our nose (or turn up our nose?) at others because of what we see, we would do well to immediately offer up a prayer of gratitude that they chose to spend the time with God and with His church.
RE: observing women’s rear ends—for a bit of levity—
We have this full length mirror built in at the bottom of our stairs (came with the house)...so every time I go up the stairs - I get a great view of my middle-aged growing behind…
Anyways, one day I ripped my skirt and so had my daughter “change what I wore”—my skirt—into a tote bag. Well, of course I am bummed about my growing derriere and we never talk about another’s behind-esp. about how it seems to be expanding…but when I took my cool new tote out and about my cousin looked at it and said “WOW! That is a HUGE bag!!!” She was mortified when I told her it was made from one of my skirts!! She felt so bad for her comment but it was hysterical and we all laughed at the upside of my larger rear end—a larger tote bag!!
I think we’re all pretty aware of what women in pants look like from the back. We’ve all had plenty of opportunities to observe it.
Yup, lots of judgment going on here. And lots of holier-than-thou attitudes.
Dear Mouse,
All those ladies on that site were beautiful - but we agree about the modesty of some- though relatively speaking they weren’t so bad compared to what I often see at Mass (I wrote earlier that we wear skirts - but we don’t wear skirts above the knees—and we usually wear legging shorts, capris, or long leggings under). That hasn’t always been the case but we are sort of rebelling against a society determined to undress us! What guidelines do you follow?
Today’s style puts all of us ladies (even the littlest ones) in clothing that would make any man lust. The fashions of today (esp. the Junior’s department) must make this a dream world for men with women (esp. young, developed teens) running around 1/2 naked all the time (or a private hell for virtuous men who are trying to remain chaste and pure in their thoughts and actions). I think us women have been duped. Esp. seeing these 12 year old girls dressed in strapless minidresses while they have fully developed bodies. What are we doing? Esp. us parents? I think we are putting our youngest in serious jeopardy and this includes both the girls and the boys. And fashions are determined by adults! This may be too off topic from what to wear to Mass but honestly, these same styles show up at Mass. It is heart-breaking to think about how quickly modesty has disappeared in women’s clothing in such a short time- and how we, as women have largely enjoyed the newest fashion, minis, cleavage, tight pants, bikini swim suits,—WE buy the stuff!. Now all of Hollywood is showing off all its beautiful actresses in sheer clothing? Is that what is down the road for our girls? For us women? And will that, too, show up at Mass and as bridesmaid’s dresses? We are temples of the Holy Spirit. How can we revolutionize this fashion world to bring modesty back?
And just what do you wear to a banquet? A wedding feast? Duh! This is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I am sick and tired of seeing jeans, T-shirts, low cut blouses, short short skirts, even on Extraordinary ministers of the Holy Eucharist, and on lector ladies who, when they bend over to bow, show just about all they’ve got. What is wrong with our priests who are so afraid to offend? What about offending Our Lord and Our Lady? At the TLM we would never show up in anything but a nice dress or skirt and modest top, and “good” shoes. Even if we wear the same outfit every Sunday, who cares? And usually a veil or a nice hat. We live in a beach town and it is difficult especially in the summer, with tourists dropping in. Some parishes have a big poster with icons depicting what is appropriate and what is not, at Mass. It works. I pray that dignity in dress makes a big comeback soon.
When I was an Orthodox Jew the idea was to wear “your Shabbos best” to services. Not someone else’s best—but YOUR best. Despite living in a community with a wide range of socio-economic backgrounds I was hard pressed to determine who was rich and who wasn’t based on what people wore (especially the women) to services. I have been shocked and saddened by what I see people choose to wear to Sunday Mass (I cut people more slack during the week). You can’t convince me it’s from a lack of money. Those sports team hoodies aren’t cheap! It’s from a simple lack of respect. I’m sorry that the Church felt it was more important to keep people in the pews than to retain the dignity of the Eucharist.
I stopped wearing pants sixteen years ago and never looked back.
Ladies, do yourself a favor. The next time you are out and about, observe the back sides of women in pants. You, too, may give up wearing them after witnessing such a thing.
Unfortunately there is some judgment going on regarding this topic. Jennifer wrote a great article, and most of the comments here (on both sides) are supportive, but this topic is one that inevitably results in some degree of judgment and defensiveness from both sides.
We are baptist to Catholic converts and we have six children (the youngest is barely past toddlerhood). We have always dressed up to attend church service and insisted out children do so as well. They are aware it is a special occasion to honor The Lord. and there has been almost zero problems with the children dressing up for that one occasion because we have always expected and enforced it. Our oldest is now 25 and she and her little family do likewise because, as she says, “that is how she was raised”.
I think the blogroll list of photos is a neat idea for those whom it will encourage. It’s not my sort of thing but anyone who thinks they can discern boastful intentions for those who participate in it are just being judgemental.
As a child in the 60s, we had our Sunday clothes, our school clothes, and our play clothes. Sunday clothes were the best. We dressed up to go see Jesus.
However, dressing up for Church—especially Easter and Christmas—things could get out of hand in a parish. Mom always made sure we kids knew that our new hats, gloves, dresses, shoes and purses were in honor of going to Mass with our King. But there was a visible “fashion parade” of new clothes for Easter, with the idea of dressing new for the Resurrection getting lost in the shuffle. I still remember the parish priest cautioning the ladies about it
Then when the Mass changed to being said in the vernacular, it was as if all previous norms for dress were tossed aside.
I don’t wish for a return to the “Easter parade of fashion” days, but I do wish “Church clothes” still meant dressing more nicely for Mass than for any other occasion (except perhaps one’s own wedding).
Very true, B. I share some of your issues.
I always make an effort to dress myself (and my children) neatly and modestly for Mass. However, dressing “up” has always been a source of extreme stress for me for reasons that are very complicated. That stress is now compounded by the fact that our income makes buying new clothes for my pretty much impossible. My children usually look just fine, thanks to the hand-me-downs we receive from generous relatives. I, however, have (for at least five years now) had to make due with what is in my closet. Some things no longer fit (after two pregnancies) and some things are very worn. Very little is in style. Each Sunday I have to confront these difficulties and try to come up with an “outfit” that will do. Sometimes that becomes very stressful. Sometimes, if I let it, it can sap my joy. So sometimes I choose to wear what is clean and comfortable and not pilled, torn or worn. Sometimes that means I wear jeans.
So please be careful not to judge the person sitting in the next pew by her appearance. Try being grateful that all the problems we have are first-world ones. For now.
Follow-up: Gosh, I don’t mean to be rude, but when I went to the “What I Wore Sunday” link, a lot of what I saw would not be considered modest, if that is the goal! Maybe that’s not part of it (I didn’t spend a lot of time on looking at the whole site)...but I think maybe we women need a little crash course in what Christian modesty actually is… You don’t have to be covered in a tarp, but goodness!
Nice post.
Yes, one of the benefits of dressing in a way that doesn’t give anyone else anything to look at (if you get my drift), is that you forget about yourself too! Less focus on self, more focus on Jesus.
I notice that immodestly or wildly dressed women spend a lot of time pulling at their clothes, rearranging things, flipping their hair, etc. So it’s distracting for them too, besides the basic sinfulness of provoking lust in men.
I also find that greater focus on Jesus is a benefit of wearing a chapel veil. I don’t spend much time fooling around with my hair before Mass, because no one is going to see it. This makes for a more recollected morning before Mass, and leaves more time to prepare (as long as I get up in time!!). I don’t think about how my hair looks while I’m at Mass, which is something we women have a hard time not doing.
@Another Mom thank you for recognizing that the single need fellowship!!!
as a woman over 40, I’m still looking for opportunities for fellowship.
Feel free to reach out. There are very, very lonely people at Mass.
(if you’re going out to brunch after, consider inviting them with your family -they’ll pay their own way- it’s just nice to not go home to an empty house - and we’re greatly entertained by your kids, having none of our own. )
Speaking of which… whatever happened to that singles column NCR teased us with?
Since my youngest was born, I’ve made sure that we all are dressed for church—even on vacation. Along with going and Actually staying in the church, we try to instill respect for God & the Mass. Over the years our best has ebbed & flowed depending on our means but we are always clean & dressed. And attempt to not disturb everyone in a 4 pew radius :).
Great post Jen!
Thank you for writing this, I feel just the same.
As a convert, I had never actually worn jeans to church until becoming Catholic…we always dressed and wore our Sunday Best to church growing-up. As I reflected upon this in my own life, I became convicted, that now I am Catholic; shouldn’t my dress be even better, since I will come face to face with the Incarnate God at Mass today?
You are a wonderful sister in Christ Jennifer, thank you again
My almost-5 year old loves Mass, and is always well behaved there. He plays Mass all the time at home, pretending to be a priest. He wears whatever pants I can get to stay up on him (he’s skinny!) along with a clean shirt, and sneakers to Mass, which are the only winter shoes I have for him at this point. He is a beautiful person, and it is not due to externals. I wouldn’t be surprised if he considers a vocation to the priesthood when he’s grown up.
We live a mile from a Catholic church now, and when it’s nice weather we walk to church. That means I have to wear my walking shoes, since God saw fit to give me poorly shaped feet that need orthotics unless I want strained ligaments. I’m not going to wear a skirt with my New Balance walking shoes, sorry. I wear my jeans and as nice a top as I can contrive, and hope I don’t sweat too much on the walk there. If we’re driving I wear nicer clothes, but I lean towards the practical.
What has convicted me most about what I wear to Mass is a family of 8 who do not have a huge income…of their few outfits to choose from, the dress in shirts, ties, pants, and skirts. They look great and they would be the ones that have the “excuse” to dress poorly. Our family, with more resources wearing casual clothes to Mass seemed like giving dandelions to Jesus when He’d prefer roses. Though, before we knew better - He lovingly and gladly accepted our dandelions because He knew our hearts were there for love of Him and He didn’t care that we weren’t dressed better…but slowly, He let us know. It was a change from the inside out. Then we did some changing from the outside in…when we made the move to nicer clothes for Mass - we were self-conscious but it did change our focus. We sat nicer, listened better, like we would if we were dressed up for a nice dinner or a wedding (alas! Mass is both!) Granted, we don’t dress as nice as if we were at a wedding, but often at Hispanic Masses, we noticed that people (again with far less resources than ours) did dress as if they were at a wedding…so maybe there is more room for growth on our family’s part.
At any rate - for the ladies in the family, nicer for us meant skirts for Mass on Sunday but then it was strange not to wear skirts for daily Mass so we began that ... then it was crazy for us to be constantly changing clothes so we found ourselves wearing skirts daily. Then one Lent we gave up pants…that shifted our thinking further as we pondered on Mary’s dress, the history of fashion, what is true modesty, etc.
It seemed like a nice penance and so wearing skirts has become our prayer (a continuous fast, if you will).
But, one of the best guidelines of the day seems to be—what is the dress code for the Vatican Basilica? http://saintpetersbasilica.org/Pics/SQR/DressCode-JG.jpg
Since we are one Church, we figured what would get you in there seems to be a good guideline for what to wear to Mass.
It is fun to read peoples’ thoughts and how they’ve grown and changed through their dress.
We try to go to mass daily. On Sundays I do don dress slacks and a “nicer” shirt. Weekdays I wear what I intend to wear all day.
Maybe the “dress up for Mass” crowd is mostly female, having far more choices and perspectives on what to wear for mass. I do find “off-the-shoulder” blouses and short skirts on females in pews before the one where I sit distracting; this mostly happens on Sundays, as the daily mass crowd is mostly retirement age and tends to dress more conservatively.
TeaPot562
I think its all about what helps each of us keep our focus on God. For me personally, its being in clean comfortable clothes. I rarely if ever “dress up”. for me, that type of clothes makes me so uncomfortable I can’t wait to go home and get out of them! Not at all how i want to feel at Mass. i am very sensitive to tight,scratchy, uncomfortable clothes. I rarely notice what others are wearing at Mass, unless too much skin is showing!
My 11 year-old son had never worn a t-shirt and shorts to mass until this past summer. I insist on shirts with a collar, long pants and dress shoes. He knows that we are going to the most important event in our lives and we should dress accordingly. As I said, this past summer we were at the beach and could not get back in time to mass at out parish. We looked for a church near by and fulfilled our Sunday “obligation” (it never is an obligation but a necessity) My son fidgeted the for the first part of mass until I whispered to him, “He’ll understand” We had a talk about what is really important and his response was, “I know Mom, but my school uniform is nicer than what I’m wearing, and my friends and teachers at school are not as important as Jesus.” If exterior signs have made his inside this beautiful, I’m glad I insisted.
Dear Ms. Fulwiler, good post. My Spidey sense is hearing another issue behind the one you’ve written about so well. Organization. A woman’s closet is her arsenal, her opportunity to streamline other aspects of her life. The closet is weirdly central to a woman’s life. Please do yourself a favour and read, listen to, or watch Peter Walsh’s book: It’s All Too Much. Peter advises us to have in our closets only the clothes that fit us, are in good repair, look good on us, and make us feel good about ourselves. What’s all that other stuff doing in there? Take an hour (not easy to negotiate with 7 rugrats) or so to empty out your closet of ALL of its contents. Pitch into the garbage anything that can’t be repaired. Throw into an out pile those clothes that no longer fit you or belong to other people. Of what remains, hold them up to yourself, look in the mirror: Do you love it? Does it make you feel good? Or, does it remind you of a bad time or person in the past? Ask yourself if any of the clothes are “repeats”, multiples of each other. How many do you really need? Thus pared down, what remains is what fortifies you and boosts your mood. Your mood can be further fortified by donating what is not longer you. And, your kids can help you move the items out of the closet and into bags, while you call the donation center. When Sunday rolls around, and you look into your closet, a ton of self-bolstering options will present themselves to you. You won’t have to think so hard about being well dressed (or well-enough dressed) for Mass. Just a suggestion. Clothes make the woman. Yes, to a certain extent. But the closet makes it easy.
IF you actually have something better to wear in your closet, then yes.
If you’re like me though, nobody makes any clothes you’d look good in, and haven’t since togas went out of fashion, so why bother pretending?
Spend your money on actually doing the work of the King- feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, giving an unwed mother a place to sleep- NOT dressing up just to be fancy.
Hay everybody,the young, the older, parents, who are we going to Mass for? To worship a King, receive the Holy Eucharist or to please ourselves by putting on a fashion show? King Jesus is the reason we are at Mass, so why wouldnt we wear our season’s best, above all modest. Mass is not the place to dress like a slut or begger when we have something better to wear in our closet. My dear young people: Listen to Mary, Jesus’ Mom, and she will tell you that it is not the place to wear your beach clothes and thongs. This is My Son. Worship Him as the King that He is. Our Lord and Savior.
Haha, we’re still talking about this. Okay, yes, there is a very good reason for being dressed nice at Mass. I’ve always enforced this at home—which is probably why a couple of times last summer my sixteen year old went straight from the beach, to the 7 pm sinner’s mass at the University parish—in his board shorts. Board shorts. If that’s the worst of his teenage rebellion I guess I’ll feel relieved. He didn’t complain about leaving the beach for mass! I voiced my proper disgust with him and left it at that. Oh, and I’ve had two weeks running now, where I catch my husband looking at me with pride and appreciation in a well-put-together ensemble. I’d like to say that I went so out of my way just for God alone, but that would be disingenuous.
Oh, and the week before last—all the great outfits in the world didn’t help our red faces when our six y.o., who stowed away a rubber ball the size of a baseball into mass, (which he dropped of course), and it bounced quite audibly in a quiet moment, (BOUNCE. BOUNCE, bounce, bounce)... rolling ALL THE WAY TO THE ALTAR. He had the audacity to start moaning and crying for me to RETRIEVE IT because he wanted it back! I literally announced to God in a silent, somewhat end of my rope prayer that I wouldn’t be bringing him again to mass until he reaches the age of reason, (unless of course He sent me a sign, because the kid embarrasses me every. single. Sunday.) No sooner did we exit mass, that a nice old lady, beaming, told me how much joy, watching our children brings her… sigh. He got his reprieve.
Jen, I enjoyed your article.
I surfed my way into the What I Wore Sunday meet-up a few weeks ago and found it to be really cute, but I’m pretty sure that I’m going to leave it to the young. I remember attending Mass when I was single and living far from my parents. Most weeks, I was the only young woman in the congregation. It felt lonely to look at the families with children and wonder if God would ever answer my prayers for a husband and children.
I am so glad that the current generation has social media sites like WIWS, so that even if they are alone in their parishes, they can have a little fellowship with their peers on Sundays.
I generally dress the same for Mass as I do the rest of the week: dockers and a polo shirt. I dress up for more important days: Good Friday, Easter, Christmas.
I try not to get hung up on how others are dressed, I think the important thing is that they are there at all.
Thomas: exactly!
But just be careful about the question turning from “what did I wear to Mass?” to “what did he/she wear to Mass?”. People don’t remember all of that nonsense from the good old days of ‘Sunday Best’...
I’m in the choir, so I have to dress at least professionally, but I agree with the what was said. I always feel better when I dress up, even just to do housework. I find I have more energy and can get more done. Remember, when you look good, you feel good.
I’d also like to point out that for me personally, I will wear shorts to Church- but only when God tells me to by blessing rainy Oregon with 95+F weather.
I didn’t take any of the comments as being critical of this article. People are just exchanging different ideas.
I was checking out at a large dept. store a while back and the checkout person recognized me from our local parish. She immediately said how well dressed our children are at holy mass. I walked outta that store kinda stunned. I try to impress my children on the importance of dress but her comment was well taken. So now after mass i try to compliment children on how nicely dressed they are. Parents appreciate it it think. Brick by Brick.
Jen, I love your post, and I have to agree with all the commenters a little bit. This is such a grey area. My family always tries to dress up for Mass- my husband wears a tie or jacket, I wear business-casual, and try to put our 2 year old in something cute. This may all disintegrate in a few days when our 2nd child arrives, I know. :)
Anyway, our family’s dilemma is when we are camping. We are weekend campers in the summer, and we always go to Mass at a local parish on Sunday. But we find it nearly impossible to pack a church-appropriate wardrobe (by our definition) that won’t get ruined/wrinkled/dirty at a campsite (even if stashed in the car). So we have gone to mass in jeans and sweatshirts, and even with all the people in football jerseys around me (ugh) I still feel out of place.
I guess this is just one of those very personal things that everyone has to make their own choice about.
Sing it sister. This mom of 5 with kids 11 and under says God deserves our best. No, I don’t care what other people think about me, I care about how I’m preparing my heart for God. And, I don’t think using the excuse of having many small children lets me off the hook for wearing just any old thing. If parenting is about modeling, I want my kids to see that going to Mass deserves my attention - in how I dress and I how I prepare my heart.
I’m a woman who loves to dress up… and typically, Mass is the most fitting occasion for my best clothes.
Jennifer, I too have suffered from the ESP apologies for my attire… the shawl over the bare sleeves that keeps slipping, or the pants that don’t fit right… certainly do pull one’s focus from the sacrifice of the Mass.
It’s just better prepared to dress nicely and be done with it, than to sit and worry and mentally apologize instead of praying!
From another convert: I sing with the choir at our church. I dress in clean modest clothes to honor where I am. I do not judge what others are wearing, though. We aren’t sposta. As for the Magnificat, applause. I also recommend a subscription, the daily prayers and Scripture daily. Including Sundays before Mass to have the readings and Gospel already in mind.
Great article, Jennifer. It’s amazing how someone always finds something wrong with an article like this. If people were going to meet the Holy
Father or President or the CEO of our company, they would probably wear the best outfit they had. Why can’t we do it for God. I dress to Mass like I do for work, nice, stylish and modest. I dress down if I attend Mass on Saturdays since I’m normally out running errands. However, it’s nice jeans. Lack of modesty at Mass especially short shorts in the summer is what bothers me the most but that’s another topic that makes some people crazy.
To Kris-
I addressed this in my first WIWS link-up.
“It is my sincere belief that dressing well for Mass (or for worship of any kind) is critical for a full-body experience. We must immerse ourselves head-to-toe in the prayer of the Mass, and build our day around it. As Catholics, we believe that there is no person on earth due greater respect than He who is present in the Holy Eucharist. Taking the time to dress for a special occasion is one of our small, earthly ways of showing respect in His presence.
I say all of this remembering always that not everyone can dress as they please. They may not have the money or the means to bring themselves to church looking “their best”. Intent and gladness of heart is always numero uno, so when we participate in What I Wore Sunday, we hope to do so from the inside, out.”
For those who are offended by the concept- good grief! HERE IS SOMETHING ON THE INTERNET THAT IS GOOD, CLEAN FUN! I wonder if some concern springs from the fear of a change in expectation. Look, I’ll put it this way- I live in a place where jeans are formal wear, so long as they’re dark wash or have rhinestones on the rear pockets. This is just like all other areas of the faith life: we work on our own approach and pray to DEAR GOD that we don’t offend anybody in the self-improvement process ;-)
Btw, is your captcha some sort of freaky, sub-human, mind-reading device? It seems to know that I’m a milspouse.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1387 says clothing should reflect “respect, solemnity, and joy of this moment when Christ becomes our guest.”
To Kris-
I addressed this in my first WIWS link-up.
http://animakinsi.blogspot.com/2012/11/happy-sunday-everybody-i-am-so-excited.html
“It is my sincere belief that dressing well for Mass (or for worship of any kind) is critical for a full-body experience. We must immerse ourselves head-to-toe in the prayer of the Mass, and build our day around it. As Catholics, we believe that there is no person on earth due greater respect than He who is present in the Holy Eucharist. Taking the time to dress for a special occasion is one of our small, earthly ways of showing respect in His presence.
I say all of this remembering always that not everyone can dress as they please. They may not have the money or the means to bring themselves to church looking “their best”. Intent and gladness of heart is always numero uno, so when we participate in What I Wore Sunday, we hope to do so from the inside, out.”
For those who are offended by the concept- good grief! HERE IS SOMETHING ON THE INTERNET THAT IS GOOD, CLEAN FUN! I wonder if some concern springs from the fear of a change in expectation. Look, I’ll put it this way- I live in a place where jeans are formal wear, so long as they’re dark wash or have rhinestones on the rear pockets. This is just like all other areas of the faith life: we work on our own approach and pray to DEAR GOD that we don’t offend anybody in the self-improvement process ;-)
Btw, is your captcha some sort of freaky, sub-human, mind-reading device? It seems to know that I’m a milspouse.
It is not what goes on the heart but what comes out. Dressing up for Mass is a sign, spoken with the body, that one respects Who they are meeting. It does not mean that the person does or does not intend what the sign says.
I have started dressing up for Mass. I find it prepares my heart for the encounter that should be the most important one of my lifetime, a wedding banquet with the Lamb. It has secondary benefits too. It also teaches my children that this is important.
I grew up protestant and had it drilled into me that we always wear our best to church. Sundays were slow days for us and very special. After church (read three hours of sunday school, bible study, and chit chat) we would either go out to eat brunch (which you had to be dressed up for) or a country drive. When I became Catholic I was shocked by the casualness of everyones attitude in what to wear. I still dressed up. Until my husband chose to go to daily mass, then things changed. I had to go to work right after and my work apparel was not really Mass worthy. I felt so conspicuous in my jeans and tennies and ill fitting shirt. Gradually, I didn’t feel so bad about my dress but I can see how complacency crept in. Clothing is distracting at mass. It can either help or hurt your focus.
I’m a volunteer music minister, so I get to see everyone from my vantage point. The wardrobe choices (or malfunctions?) are evident. And I can always tell when it’s game day for our pro football team (or the various CYO or township sports teams). But I will confess my ambivalence on this topic. For me, full and conscious participation in the liturgy is what is important. Thus, the preparation of the heart and mind prior to Mass is the key ingredient. If it takes putting on your best pair of shoes to do that, fine. But we shouldn’t judge those who can’t afford to, or choose not to, dress to what we believe are the “proper” standards. As for the clergy sounding the clarion call for this, our new, young priest tackled this very topic during a homily last summer. Not only did some people get up and leave, but it elicited a strong negative response in the hours and days after. Perhaps it was the self-righteous tone; perhaps it was the judgement that your outer appearance is an indication of your inner soul. Regardless, I don’t believe it had the intended result.
Christina, I hear ya. My kids are 5, 2.5, and 7 months. I see much more of the bathroom than the sanctuary on a typical Sunday, and my clothing is often covered in an array of bodily fluids from the children by the time we leave. I’ve dressed up my utilitarian mass outfit by trading in the slacks for leggings and tops for a few comfy, stretchy dresses. Then a cardigan and pair of flats to match. I can move around in it, it all washes easy, is good for breastfeeding, and can all be found thrift shopping. Still, in the cold of winter or throes of pregnancy, clean jeans and a nice sweater often have to do!
Hate to say it, but as an autistic male, I find being concerned about how one looks to others to be utterly mystical and mysterious.
Still, I follow the new dress code that the new priest put in place for Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist- just in case somebody asks me to do that. Most of the time anyway. When I’m not wearing my Knights of Columbus Charter Member T-shirt.
it is funny that my experience is the opposite. When I was much younger if I didn’t have anything really nice to wear for church I simply wouldn’t go. I was so concerned with how I looked that it prevented me from going at times. Now, I never miss mass! I dress nice, but I don’t make a huge effort to look super dressy. The rules for my family of four are: collared shirt for boys, nice non t-shirt top for me(blouse like), no jeans, no sneakers, no athletic wear.
Recently someone suggested, when doing business over the phone or when a potential boss requests a phone interview for that new job, dressing like you would if you were in the presence of the person. Obviously, if it is a phone interview, it is not for the new boss to admire your fashion sense, but for your own self confidence. Honestly, it does make a difference on how you respond to the questions and how you present yourself or your product.
Then again, if invited to meet with the President or the Holy Father, we wouldn’t give it a second thought. The best outfit in the closet might not meet the occasion. A friend had an opportunity to go to confession to the late John Paul II. Even though he would be hidden away in the confessional, my friend bought a new suit for the occasion.
Should we do anything less when coming into the presence of our Lord at Mass?
It is refreshing to see more young women desiring clothes that are feminine and dignified. The overly relaxed look has become old and tired. When checking out at our local TJMaxx recently, I couldn’t help but overhear the conversation between two 20-something clerks. They were tired of matching outfits; they loved dresses. But the one most impressive comment was how they felt better about themselves and they noticed how people (men) treated them with more respect. It was a little gift to me to be checking out at that moment!
Jennifer, I think I’ve been on the same wavelength as you! I decided a few months ago that mass was the perfect place to wear all of my ‘special occasion’ clothes that had been, too often, just sitting in the closet. I recently took another bold (for me) step and decided to pair my vintage hat collection with them. At our previous parish, I always admired the number of ladies who wore chapel veils or hats. After we moved and joined our lovely parish here, despite how traditional it is, I didn’t really see that and missed it. Well, why not start with myself, I figured? So now I’m the odd duck wearing hats to mass. I was a little self-conscious at first, but I’ve found that it really does make me feel more “Wedding Feast” appropriate, and now I feel like I’m participating better. I’m sure there must be a few people who wonder about me, but as I understand it, being a ‘fool for Christ’ is not a bad thing!
I don’t either, Ellen. I stick with neat, clean and modest. I don’t think God cares too much about fashion or formal attire, as long as we’re respectful. He’s more concerned about what’s on the inside than with appearances.
Meh. I never dress up. I never go anywhere without my kids, who are all 6 and under, and require my complete attention at all times. My wardrobe reflects the fact that I’m a 24-hour child care worker. Jeans, t-shirts, and comfortable shoes that I can run, bend, and get dirty in. I find myself *more* distracted and self-conscious in dressy clothes, which don’t stretch or move the way I need them to. I’m always more worried about whether my skirt is hiking up in back, the the buttons in my blouse are gaping open, or my shoes are going to slip off while I struggle through the weekly wrestling match that is mass with my kids. I honestly don’t care what anyone thinks about how I’m dressed at mass. I’m not on vacation, and I’m not there to impress anyone, I’m working. At this stage of my life spiritual reflection during mass is a luxury. I’m there for the Eucharist, and because I’m obligated to be there. I’ll think about dressing up for mass when my kids are older and not so needy.
I am so glad this article is written! I’ve been challenging others on FB to dress for the Lord, but all I keep hearing is how God loves them the way they are. I tell them God sees inside their closet all the nice skirts, dresses and pants in their closet that they could have worn instead of the sweats, but so far my message hasn’t worked. I’m sharing this column on FB now!
I tend to wear my warm clothes to church this time of year. Our church is very old and it gets cold. I never wear torn or dirty clothes to church ever, but I don’t get out the high heels (instruments of torture).
Gosh, this was really funny; I was really laughing/crying at the ESP excuses to the others around you. Very clever and so true for me, too.
Just a note, the link-up isn’t just to “brag” about what you’re wearing.. it’s moreso to get ideas of what other people are wearing when perhaps you don’t have a better idea of what to wear. We started this linkup for inspiration and for women (and men if they want to!) to come together with a common theme which we all share (going to church).
I personally don’t judge people for what they are wearing, because I’ve been there. I’ve gone to church in jeans and a sweatshirt because I didn’t get the chance to go home and change when coming from out of town. But I really do agree with Jen - what I am wearing really helps me focus more on Christ.
I recall reading a wonderful book with one of my children years’ ago, called, ROLL OF THUNDER, HEAR MY CRY. The story focuses on a black family post-slavery. It describes how the family walked for miles to get to church on Sunday and how they always wore their Sunday clothes to church. Their Sunday clothes consisted of one, just one, outfit that was fitting for a King. Even if we are so poor as to only own one good outfit, then that is what Our Lord deserves—our very best.
Erin, keep doing what you are doing with your family! Many times I go to mass and I feel like I am a tailgate party with all the football jerseys on. I started wearing a suit to Mass every Sunday a couple of years ago. I choose to do this myself. I’m not doing it for others but for God.
We live in a topsy turvy world and dress like it. If we stopped to think that it is the Lamb’s Wedding Feast we are priviliged to attend, we would dress differently. This has nothing to do with being rich or poor. People in third world countries may only have one good outfit and that is what they wear to mass.
While I agree and empathize with you on the whole dress-nice-for-mass topic, I think it’s a little disturbing to see so many people beginning to brag about how they do the right thing. The flip side this is the pride that comes from that attitude. A regular writer like you (or Mark Shea) or a parish priest has a duty to promote the idea of dressing appropriately for Mass and the benefits of it. A regular mommy-blogger like me has little business standing on my internet street corner and lamenting how much better I am than others.
Maybe I’m bitter because I’ve been judged unfairly by others when I’ve dressed “poorly” for church (I’m traveling and only brought one nice dress and my 3 year old dumped oatmeal all over it that morning, I didn’t have time to run home and change after working in that soup kitchen late, etc). Maybe I’m bitter because I’ve visited too many Catholic churches where walking in wearing a dress with a husband in a shirt and tie and 5 neatly dressed children contrasts so much with the 2-kid families in torn sweats and flip-flops that I’M the one who gets stared and pointed at. Dunno. But I’ll just dress right and teach my kids to do so, though I may loosen up a little in the teen years (some battles aren’t worth fighting, but there will still be limits). Ironically, I learned to dress for church from my atheist parents, who sent me off on occasion with friends or grandparents in my best clothes. They themselves dress up when they come to our church. Even they know it’s a place to show respect for at least the other people. But I don’t need to photo-blog about it.
The article is not saying that “church clothes” are what it’s all about. It is saying that we should offer our best, the best of our hearts, minds, souls, spirits, bodies, treasures, talents, to God. If the best one has is a used suit obtained from the parish outreach ministry, then that is the widow’s mite, and it is everything. If the best is a dress purchased at Wal-mart, then that is everything. The point is not to call attention to ourselves, but to dress as if we were going into the presence of our King, our best friend, our beloved; for that is who Christ is, or ought to be.
Well said, Kris. Church should not be a fashion show, and we should be very careful about making judgments based on outside appearances, but there’s something to be said for taking the time to put on something neat and clean (though not necessarily formal).
It is both revealing and sad that many Catholics tend to dress down at Church while Protestants tend to dress up. It has nothing to do with economics either. Unfortunately clergy chooses not to be instructive of respectful dress or faith teaching.
We have always made our children “dress” for Mass. Our reasoning is simple. If we were to take them to meet President Obama, who we have little respect for, we would, out of respect for the office certainly have our children (and ourselves) dress-up. We wouldn’t wear cut-offs, or ripped pants, with tired t-shirts. We believe we are meeting Jesus Christ - God - Creator of everything at each and every Mass and He deserves our best. We keep it simple though. The boys ages (10, 9 & 7) have a drawer of “church approved clothes”. This drawer has khaki’s and collared shirts or comfortable sweaters. They also wear dress shoes rather than sneakers (which they already have for school). The girls (13, 6 & 3) are easier because they already like to dress nice. In general we don’t allow jeans for Mass attire, but we’ve made exceptions if the weather is horrible (especially a blizzard). My dh almost always wears jacket, and often wears a tie. I almost always wear the same pair of nice tailored black pants and a blouse. I was once told that “as we worship, so we believe” and it seems to me, especially when trying to convey the truth to children, that how one dresses matters. It’s not the only thing, and certainly not the most important, but it matters.
I think it can be dangerous for people to focus on what is on the outside of a person’s body; for it is the heart on the inside that matters most. However…I sometimes look around me at Mass and wonder - is that the best you could do when you come to worship God and receive Him? Tattered sweat pants, shorts, torn sweatshirts, stained sweaters, shoes that are one step away from falling apart, hair that hasn’t seen a comb in a week?
I don’t like it when I think like this - we don’t know the circumstances that prompted the attire. We don’t know what happened in that home that day or in the days/weeks leading up to that moment when they choose the sweat pants and grubby sweatshirt.
I have the great fortune to live in an affluent town that is surrounded by similarly well-to-do towns. Our parish is wealthy in spirit, love and finances. So at least in my situation - I know that the people have better choices that shorts and a stained t-shirt. You are going to worship God - to be seen by him. I believe that how we dress when we go to Mass can be a reflection of our level of respect for our Lord.
But it doesn’t apply to everyone; we have to be aware that not all is at it seems and that “church clothes” aren’t really what it’s all about, in the end.
Join the Discussion
We encourage a lively and honest discussion of our content. We ask that charity guide your words. By submitting this form, you are agreeing to our discussion guidelines. Comments are published at our discretion. We won’t publish comments that lack charity, are off topic, or are more than 400 words. Thank you for keeping this forum thoughtful and respectful.
Comments are no longer being accepted on this article.