Its not just the repetitions that are a problem but the whole idea of praying to someone who was a fallen creature and supposedly can hear your prayers from the other side. The Scripture is clear that prayer is to be directed to God alone.

To ART: In short, you are saying that Jesus was born from a fallen creature and not from someone who was full of grace and that all generation would call her blesed! The devil would have had one moment of success over the Son of God as he would have been born from a corrupted creature. She is the sublime CREATION of God - Immaculate not like me & you.

To Art:
Our Almighty and Holy God would never have His Holy Rightous Son to be born in the womb of a (as you say) fallen creature.
She was especially created sinless to carry the “New Ark of the Covenant” the Holy God/Man Himself.
As it states in the bible, “and every nation shall call me blessed.”

Hadrian-Espe,
Couple of things. Were the materials of the Ark composed of materials of the fallen creation? The answer is yes. This shows the divine presence has no problem interacting with His fallen creation.
Secondly, if anyone fulfills the Ark typology it is the Lord Jesus.
Your views of sin are materialistic and not spiritual. Sin is not a physical force or object. Jesus being conceived in the womb of Mary by the HS would not contaminate Him. In fact we know it did not by what Scripture says and we also know that Jesus touched sinners His entire life and was never contaminated by them.

Art:

Are you a fallen creature?  Do you ever pray for people or tell people that, “you are going to pray for them?”  So, you are saying then, that God would never listen to your prayer or, anyone of us, “truly fallen creatures?”  So then, why pray?
God will hear the petitions that we give to His holy mother.  Why?  Because even though He’s God, he’s never disobeyed his parents/mother and he holds his holy mother in very high regard because she was his earthly mother, the first holy face He saw as He entered this fallen world.
He has also blessed his holy mother with graces to help us and she also continues to be sent by God as His ambassador and itercessor for us.

Hi Art,
The bible also says that John the Baptist was the greatest of the prophets, but the least in heaven are greater than him. And I would submit that our Blessed Mother is the first (human) in heaven.
Why would Jesus tell us that those in heaven are greater than the prophets, if they could not aid us in our journeys?  Peace

To Art:  Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? I hope so!!  Then take that a little further - wouldn’t someone who has ‘gone before us’ and is now closer to God be in a position to pray for us even more effectively? Now move on to Mary—she is Jesus’ mother! Wouldn’t she have even more effect with her prayers for us?? Why do you assume that those who have died can no longer hear us or pray for us??

JohnY,
The Scripture never teaches or exhorts us to pray to anyone but God alone. Hebrews 11 was written for our encouragement to be faithful by reminding us of those who have gone before. Much can be learned from them but we are never exhorted to pray to them. The Lord Jesus taught us to pray in His name only. It is He alone Who is said to be our Great High Priest Who intercedes before the Father for us. See Hebrews 4:14-16. With the Lord Jesus in us and working in us there is no need to appeal to those who have gone on before us.

Okay Art:
  you’re looking at the Rosary and any prayer from anyone else as if we are praying TO that person. NO!! We are asking them to pray for us. There’s quite a difference there!

Hadrian:

Please read these all these scriptures:
DN 2:45,  Ps 46:5, jdt 24, Wis 7:26, Lk 1:28, Mt 7:17, Rom 9:21, Ps 46:5, Lk 1:37, Eccl 24:12, Lk 1:42, Lk 2:28, Lk 1:35, Ps 16:10, Song 4:7,8,  Song 6:8,9,10,  Song 4: 7,8 1Kg 1:29,  Lk 1:28,  Rv 12:1,  Lk 1:40-42,  Lk 2:34-35,  Lk 8:21,  Lk 1:45,  and there are countless more of which I don’t have the time to list.
Mary’s unique cooperation in the plan of salvation?  It should be sought in God’s particular intention for the Mother of the Redeemer, whom on two solemn occasions, that is, at Cana and beneath the Cross, Jesus addresses as “Woman” (cf. Jn 2:4; 19:26) Mary is associate as a woman in the work of Salvation. Having created man “male and female” (cf Gn 1:27) the Lord also wants to place the New Eve beside the New Adam in the Redemption.  Our first parents had chosen the way of sin as a couple; a new pair, the Son of God with His mother’s cooperation, (her fiat) would reestablish the human race in its original dignity.
Mary, the New Eve, thus becomes a perfect icon of the Church.  In the divine plan, at the food of the Cross, she represents redeemed humanity which, in need of salvation, is enabled to make a contribution to the unfolding of the saving work.

Art, Art, you apparently are reading incorrectly or can’t read.

No one is saying to pray to anyone other then God Himself.  We are saying that we do have intercessors in heaven.  Not only Our Blessed mother but all the saints that have gone before us including the intercessory prayers of the angels.
Moses, Aaron (cf. Ex 32:11) and Samuel, among others (Nm 17:11-13; Ps 106:23), were great intercessors (1 Sm 7:5-10).  Abraham prayed to spare Sodom & Gomorrah (Gn 18:22-23).  Samuel prayed for Israel (1Sm 7:5-10).  Etc,etc.  Follwong in the footsteps of her Jewish roots, Mary is a great intercessor, an advocate as with Cana’s newlyweds (Jn 2) Since you are dependable in small matters, I will put you in charge of larger affairs (Mt 25:21)  Through intercession Yahweh gives authority to the faithful:  Yahweh Lord obeyed the voice of a man (Jos 10:14).

In Our Lady, the Father gives the same authority: “My mother, make your request, for I will not refuse you” (1Kgs 2:20)  Thus WE CAN ASK OF MARY, “You are a devout woman, PRAY TO THE LORD FOR US” (Jdt 8:29).  As St. Paul asked of his brethren, “I beseech you therefore brethren that you help me in your prayers for me to God” (Rom 15:30)
Mary as Queen Mother is advocate (1 Kgs 2:19; 15:9 13); to the King (2 Kgs 11:3; Jer 13:18,20).  The King said, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you” (1Kgs 2:20).

Espe,
  There is not one place in Scripture where we are exhorted to pray to those who have died. This is why understanding the context of the various passages of Scripture are so important. None of those passages you quote have anything to do with asking those who have died to pray for you.
Using OT passages to apply to Mary is poor application of those passages. None of the NT writers ever make the claim that Mary is a queen. If anyone would have known she was a queen it would have been those who knew her. Not even the Lord Jesus calls her a queen. To call her such is to go beyond the Scripture and to be non-apostolic.

The idea that scripture can be privately interpreted is beyond Scripture and non-apostolic.  Interpretation of Scripture comes from the Apostles who were given the Keys of the Kingdom by Christ and their valid successors these last 2000 years.

2 Peter 1:19-21
[19] And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

[21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 1:19-21

2 Peter 3: 16-18
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. [17] You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness. [18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and unto the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Peter 3: 16-18

The queenship of Mary is obvious biblical logic.

Jesus Christ is King
In the Bible, the queen is not the wife of the king, but the mother
Mary is the mother of Jesus
Ergo, Mary is queen.

Scott W. - Your reasoning is good and you seem to be of one heart and one mind with one of the Apostolic Successors of our Church, Pope Pius XII, who proclaimed the Queenship of Mary in his encyclical AD CAELI REGINAM in 1954:

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON PROCLAIMING THE QUEENSHIP OF MARY OCTOBER 11, 1954

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12CAELI.HTM

Dismas,
Every time you read Scripture or listen to it, you are interpreting it privately. If seek to understand, you must interpret. There is no way around this.
Do you know there is no official interpretation of the Scriptures by the RCC?

Scott W,
If Mary is queen then why didn’t Jesus or His apostles ever tell us this?  There is not one reference to her queen-ship in Scripture.

Art:
I’m curious—why are you reading and commenting on a Catholic blog? You obviously aren’t Catholic.

Art -

Like Priscilla said, you obviously don’t seem to be Catholic so please stop trying to tell me what to think and believe.  I’m only interested in seeking the fullness of the truth handed from the Apostles, not the private interpretation of Scripture from Art.

“And were we to enter into a more detailed investigation of these matters, an endless number of endless questions would arise, which would involve us in a larger work than the present occasion admits. We cannot be expected to find room for replying to every question that may be started by unoccupied and captious men, who are ever more ready to ask questions than capable of understanding the answer.”  St. Augustine, City of God, Book XV.

Priscilla,
Why not have a discussion with someone who believes differently?

Dismas,
You can believe anything you want. What we cannot do is to make things up and call them facts. The only thing we have from the apostles is found only in the Scripture. Don’t you think these things are worth discussing?

Art -

I don’t need or seek your permission, neither will I be told by you what I can or cannot do.  I don’t think any of these things are worth discussing with you.  I find you captious and a perfect example of 2 Peter 3:16.

Captious: 
1: marked by an often ill-natured inclination to stress faults and raise objections <captious critics>
2: calculated to confuse, entrap, or entangle in argument <a >

Finally, I’d like to leave you with this scripture for your discernment:

[6] Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you. [Matthew 7:6]

Art, my conversation with you is over.

Art, are you for real?  RCC has no official interpretation of Scriptures!!!  What do you think everyone has been posting to you?  But, just in case the Holy Spirit wants to touch your heart, off the top of my head there’s 2 reasons the Bible (after all, it was not written only by apostles) does not talk more of Mary’s queen-ship. First, it was ‘common’ knowledge that the King’s mother was queen. Secondly, as Jesus’ kingdom was not of this world, so too the queen-ship.
Also, I agree with Priscilla and Dismas, these posts are for your edification, after all you’re the one asking the questions. If you don’t want the truth we’ve come to know, go somewhere else.
You deny the Church that Jesus founded the right to interpretation of the Scripture, but claim that right for yourself. So my question to you is this, by what authority do you claim this power? Answer us that and we’ll answer you on the authority Church.

Ps. Scripture says that everything that was done ‘could not fit in all the books in the world’ so everything is definitely NOT in Scripture.
Peace, and good night.

JohnY,
What people have been posting are their opinions and not the official interpretation of the RCC. There is no such work you can refer to that will tell you that such and such passage officially means. Just ask an RC apologist.
As for needing authority to interpret Scripture, Jesus never taught such a thing. All followers of Christ are responsible to understand the Scripture. To that they must interpret them.
It is true that Jesus did and said many other things not recorded in Scripture for us. The problem is no one knows what that is. I would sure like to know.
Good nite.
 

Art:
Well, you have achieved what seems to be your aim —you have pretty much dominated this “discussion!” As for ‘a discussion with someone who believes differently’ you are not discussing - you are telling us how and why we, as Catholics, are wrong. There is some scripture I’d like you to read. I can’t even imagine how you’re going to interpret this, but it is Jesus’ words. It’s the Gospel of John, starting with Chapter 15, verse 26 and continuing into Chapter 16 thru verse 12; be sure to carefully read that last verse. You might also be interested in the last verse in Chapter 20, and if your Bible has the Epilogue (Chapter 21), its last verse as well.

Art,

In Revelation it speaks of the prayers of the saints in heaven offering the prayers of those on earth.

Art;  Can you prove where it says in the bible that in order to be in the bible, it has to be true? 
Also, the reason we have today over 30,000 religions is because of people like you who have decided to take charge and interpet the bible.  Thank God that our Catholic church has outlasted every Protestant denomination for the past 2,000 because we have the fullness of the Truth and the Magesteriam who by the power of the Holy Spirit, interprets it for the church which Christ founded, the Catholic church.
I am an ex-protestant who came to realize the true church of Jesus Christ, the Roman Catholic church.  As a Protestant, I was taught that it didn’t matter what church one belonged to as long as it wasn’t the Catholic church.  Hence, that’s why whenever a Protestant can’t agree w/another denomination on certain interpretation/s it will break away and start another church!  I will keep you in my prayers Art, that the Holy Spirit will also lead you to the fullness of the Truth!

Priscilla,
I read what you asked in John 15. Lots of things there.
Here is the last verse that you referred to:  “I still have many things to tell you, but you can’t bear them now.”
Context is vitally important in understanding what Jesus means. In 16:12 who is Jesus speaking to? Who is the “you” in this verse?

Espe,
Its not that it has to be in the Bible to be true but that if something is to be apostolic it must be since the only writings we have of the apostles is found in the NT and nowhere else.
Have studied church history? Did you before you converted?

Okay, Art:
I’m glad you read the passages - but you missed something rather important. All of what I suggested (and lots more) is Jesus talking to his apostles. If you have a Bible that shows Jesus’ words in red, it would help. You’re correct that context is very important. So why didn’t you read around/before the verses I mentioned to SEE the context??

“The depth of our relationship with God begins with humility” (St. Teresa of Avila).(Catholics see saints as role modals for us as well as intercessors)... Scripture cannot be interpreted without the Holy Spirit, and if you are truly humble, you will realize that you alone are not capable of a thourough interpretation.  The Magisterium of the Catholic church is comprised of centuries of Holy thinkers dedicated to understanding the scriptures - they don’t do it alone either.
Repetition prayer to Our Holy Mother (who wore “on her head a crown of twelve stars”) help us focus to unite us with her in praising our Lord Jesus Christ. I am thankful for your inquiry Art; may the Holy Spirit continue to fill you with Love for the Glory of God!

Rejoice!  It is the Roman Catholic Church that is the Church of the living God.  It was founded by Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago.  Jesus made Peter the the rock and gave him the keys to the Kingdom.  It is the Roman Catholic Church, alone, which is the pillar and ground of the truth that was given the power and authority by it’s Head, Jesus Christ our Lord, to interpret scripture.  What other mystery of godliness, on the face of the earth, has stood this test of time?

[15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

[15] The pillar and ground of the truth: Therefore the church of the living God can never uphold error, nor bring in corruptions, superstition, or idolatry.

[16] And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels, hath been preached unto the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory. [1 Timothy 3:15-16]

No, I don’t believe the Rosary is just vain repetitions.  Our church teaches us through an unbroken succession of apostles it is not.  Vain repetitions? That job belongs to Art.

Art, to ans. your “apostolic” ques. and my study of church history before my true conversion;
I thoroughly studied the early fathers of the church and some of them were Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, Ireanaeus and Polycarp and several of these church fathers were martyred for their faith.  They are also known as, “THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS.”  They were the immediate successors of the Apostles and some were directly taught by the Apostles.
St. John H. Newman was a famous Catholci convert who, after studying the Early church Fathers, he wrote:  “The Christianity of History is not Protestantism.”  If ever there were a safe truth it is this, and Protestantism has ever felt it so; to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.”

Christianity was started 2,000 yrs. ago and still in existance.  It didn’t go away for 1200 and come back.  Indeed that would have rendered Jesus’ words impotent.  In Matthew 16:18 as He was establishing His church Jesus gave us a guarantee.  He stated:  “I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”  If the Protestant hypothesis is correct, the gates of hell did some serious prevailing and Jesus Christ is a liar.  But of course such is not the case.
I would highly recommend a few books to you that I’ve read, some by ex-Protestant ministers and all who turned Catholic.
1. My Journey to Rome by,  Thomas Howard
2. Born Fundamentalist, born again Catholic by,  David B. Currie
3. Crossing the Tiber by, Steve K. Ray
4. The Lambs Supper by, Dr. Scott Hahn
5. Orthodoxy by, G.K. Chesterton

I also recommend a few books to you on The Early Church Fathers:
1. Early Christian Writings. The Apostolic Fathers by, Maxwell Stanforth
2. The fathers of the Church by,  Mike Aquilina
3. The Teaching’s of the Church Fathers by, Fr. John R. Willis, S.J.
4. A DVD “Footprints of God,”  Apostolic Fathers handing on the faith by,
  Steve Ray.
I hope this info. helps you and I pray that the Holy Spirit will bring you home to the fullness of Truth. 

God’s Peace to you Art
espe

art,
be careful…you don’t yet see that Catholics believe what we preach. Mary is not just jesus’ mother(you do believe that, don’t you?)...She is OUR mother, so you cross a fragile,emotional line when you belittle Her and Her place of honor in our church. Since you think she is just a dead memory, there is no way you see her as Your mother..what a shame-she is! Any boy who knows his mama loves him is mostly ‘alright’, but when he doesn’t, there’s some angry trouble brewing…and it’s somewhat obvious to the rest of us…maybe you should just try saying the rosary…

Its not that it has to be in the Bible to be true but that if something is to be apostolic it must be since the only writings we have of the apostles is found in the NT and nowhere else.

A man-made teaching found nowhere in the Bible.

Art wrote:
Scott W,
If Mary is queen then why didn’t Jesus or His apostles ever tell us this?  There is not one reference to her queen-ship in Scripture.
****************************************************
The New Testament has several places where Christ is called the Son of David.  The genealogies of Christ make it a point to show that He is of the line of King David.  Christ gave St. Peter the Keys of the Kingdom in Matthew 16:19, which is a reference back to Isaiah 22.
With the assertion of Christ being a King in the line of King David, the Old Testament and the history of the Kings in the line of King David would have implied that Mary is the gebirah, the Queen Mother.  One of the duties of the Queen Mother is to intercede between the King and the people.
The problem with your methodology is that the only written Scriptures that Christ and the Apostles had during the early,formative years of the Church was the Old Testament. The books of the Old Testament are in the Bible for a reason. 

Priscilla,
I did read the context and I’m familiar with these chapters. I’m also familiar with how some Roman Catholics think these verses some how support some of the doctrines that neither Jesus nor His apostles knew anything about. What is your point?

GregB,
It is true that Jesus is a son of David. However, it does not follow that Mary is His queen. You still have not dealt with the issue why Jesus never refers to Mary as His queen. Nor do the apostles in their writings. Either they thought she was a queen and forgot to say something about it or they never were told or thought she was which is why they never said anything about it.

Art, Are you afraid that someone praying and asking Mother Mary to intercede on your behalf to her son Jesus Christ will destroy your theology or is it that you feel you are called to teach The Church how to pray?  The one and only Church that has been around for over 2000 years through empires, wars and whatever else the world can throw at her.

I had read a book many years ago written by Scott Hahn. It’s called “Hail Holy Queen”. It seems that it would answer some questions about Mary/Queen stuff.
[Note: before Dr. Scott Hahn switched to the Catholic Church, he was one of the most anti-catholic guy in the bible college. I remember in the preface/introduction of his book, he said after his grama, a devoted catholic, passed away, she left some catholic stuff, including a rosary to him. Scott said he destoryed his grama’s rosary, throw it onto the groud and talked to God that let all the catholic ‘delivered’ from this false religion . . . . . at the end, he entered the Roman Catholic Church and become a professor in Franciscian University of Steubenville.  If you have time, please read it. God Bless :)

When it comes to the refusal of protestants to recognize the importance and necessity of Mary’s role in salvation history, I’ve always viewed the root cause to be the their lack of recognition of any order or economy of grace. It seems to me that if each protestant believes themselves to be equally justified before the eyes of God no matter what their works, faith or belief, wouldn’t this naturally disallow or prevent them from acknowledging Mary as anything more than just another woman or being like themselves?

I think it stands to reason that if protestants subscribed to Mary deserving a special devotion, honor or role in salvation, their whole theology that anyone who accepts Jesus is equally justified by faith alone would naturally crumble before their eyes.

It seems to me the whole vein repetition, Mary worship accusation, whether they realize it or not, is nothing more than necessary intellectual dishonesty and a smoke screen to protect the rest of their illogical house of cards.

I don’t understand why non-Catholics feel they must denigrate Catholic spiritual practices and insult our beliefs. Would they do the same on a Jewish blog? A Muslim blog? How rude!

It’s obvious that there are protestant bloggers giving their opinions here and it’s useless to try and give them the truth which is only found in the Catholic faith.  The only way that Art and Greg will find the “Truth” is if the Holy Spirit will bring them to the “Truth.”  As an ex-protestant myself, I too hated the Catholic church but was lead to the True Roman Catholic church by the Holy Spirit.
We need to pray for these heretical bloggers that the Holy Spirit will touch their souls and open their eyes to see the truth in the Catholic churh just like Christ Himself knocked St.Paul off “his high horse (literally).  Protestants like to hate the Catholic church and so does everyone else who isn’t Catholic.  Christ stated, “they will hate you who persecute you because they have hated me first.  “The Truth hurts.”

Epse,

I liked your suggested reading list, but I was surprised that another book of Drs. Scott and Kimberly Hahn was missing.  Have you read Rome Sweet Home?  This book had a tremdous impact on me years ago.  I think it’s great reading for Catholic and Non-Catholic alike.

Dismas, actually “Rome Sweet Rome” was the first book given to me that I read. Sorry I forgot to mention this one!

To Hadrian, sorry I meant my comments for Art, not for you!

To Art.  I forgot to mention to you how you moved away from the original subject;  Our blessed mother and the rosary on the blog dated: 4/29/12 at 4pm.  Since where did you come up praying for the dead?  That was not the subject that was originally being discussed? (praying for the dead, topic for another discussion)
It goes to show that (when the heat gets hot, get out of the kitchen!)  When you protestants get cornered, you change the subject.
Try and be opened to the Holy Spirit!  There’s a reason why you are reading the “National Catholic Register!”

Espe,
Back in the kitchen. Praying to dead is one of the many characteristics of this article. It is a factor that deserve discussion. The idea of praying to Mary was not a doctrine or practice of the church for centuries.

Epse, I have to diagree with your earlier post about ‘protestant bloggers giving their opinion here.’  I don’t see these as opinions, I see them as willful unsupported lies.  Although Wiki is not necessarily a reliable source, even Wiki shows evidence of the Mary’s role in the Church as early as the 1st. century.  No it’s not opinion.  I view it more as willful intellectual dishonesty and deceipt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Roman_Catholic_Mariology#Mary_in_the_Early_Church

Mary in the Early Church

Virgin and Child. Wall painting from the early catacombs, Rome, 4th century.The history of Mariology goes back to the 1st century. Early Christians focused their piety at first more upon the martyrs all around them. Following that they saw in Mary a bridge between the old and the new.[6] In the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus of Lyons called Mary the “second Eve” because through Mary and her willing acceptance of God’s choice, God undid the harm that was done through Eve’s choice to eat the forbidden fruit. The earliest recorded prayer to Mary, the sub tuum praesidium, is dated in its earliest form to around the year 250.

After the edict of Milan, Christian were permitted to worship openly and the veneration of Mary became public. In the following decades Cathedrals and churches were built for public worship. The first Marian churches in Rome date from the first part of the 5th century, Santa Maria in Trastevere, Santa Maria Antiqua and Santa Maria Maggiore.

In the 5th century, the Third Ecumenical Council debated the question of whether Mary should be referred to as Theotokos or Christotokos. Theotokos means “God-bearer” or “Mother of God”; its use implies that Jesus, to whom Mary gave birth, is truly God and man in one person. Nestorians preferred the title Christotokos meaning “Christ-bearer” or “Mother of the Messiah” not because they denied Jesus’ divinity, but because they believed that God the Son or Logos existed before time and before Mary, and that Mary was mother only of Jesus as a human, so calling her “Mother of God” was confusing and potentially heretical. Both sides agreed that Jesus took divinity from God the Father and humanity from his mother. The majority at the council agreed with the Pope that denying Mary the title Theotokos would either imply that Jesus was not divine, or that Jesus had two separate personhoods, one of whom was son of Mary and the other not. Ultimately, the council affirmed the use of the title Theotokos and by doing so affirmed Jesus’ undivided divinity and humanity. Thus, while the debate was over the proper title for Mary, it was primarily a Christological question about the nature of Jesus Christ, a question which would return at the Fourth Ecumenical Council. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Lutheran and Anglican theological teaching affirms the title Mother of God, while some other Christians give no such title to her.

Churches dedicated to Mary appeared across the Christian world, among the most famous being Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome. Teaching of the Assumption of Mary became widespread across the Christian world from the 6th century onward, the memorial day of the festival settling on the 15th of August in both the East and the West.

ART:  WHAT’S THE REAL REASON YOU ARE READING THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REGISTER?  You obviously have a real hatred for the Blessed mother of God and His Catholic church. 
It’s okay if you want to read the NCR but do not comment since you are speaking with a forked tongue. 
I think you should stick to your own belief’s since you are truly stuck in the mud at this point.  Some day you will know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free!
For now, nothing I say will enter your thickheaded skull so I’m done commenting.  May the Holy Spirit someday, lead you home to the true Catholic Faith.

Espe,
Is your faith this weak that you cannot engage in a discussion about it? The Register has made their site a public forum for discussions. Anyone can participate.  I have not mocked anyone’s beliefs here but I have challenged them. If you and Dismas are representative of the RCC then the world has nothing to fear from your church.

I just have one more “very critical piece of information” for ART:

You protestants would NOT have the bible if it wasn’t for the Catholic Monks who put it together and this was done about 200 years “after” Jesus Christ instituted His Catholic church!
I REST MY CASE

Art:
You said:
“I did read the context and I’m familiar with these chapters. I’m also familiar with how some Roman Catholics think these verses some how support some of the doctrines that neither Jesus nor His apostles knew anything about. What is your point?”
I might ask, what is YOUR point??  If you read and are familiar with these chapters in the Gospel of John, it should be clear. Jesus is talking to his disciples/apostles. He is telling them that after he goes, the Advocate (Holy Spirit) (Spirit of truth) will come and will “GUIDE YOU TO ALL TRUTH;” that there is much more to tell them but they “cannot bear it now.”
What do you think that means?? Could it be more clear?? Since the very beginning, after Jesus ascended, the Holy Spirit began to move among the apostles, just as Jesus said.
Also, at the end of Chaps. 20 and 21, as I mentioned, John tells us that there is so much more that Jesus did, if it were all described individually, the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.
Again I ask, why are you trying to tell us Catholics that we are wrong? Do you think that you can override a faith that has survived centuries of attacks of every kind? Do you ever wonder why there are 30,000-40,000 different Protestant churches? Who is right? (Incidentally, that is why so many Protestant ministers have become Catholic. Look it up.)
If you were honestly asking questions, and accepting ANY of the answers here, we would all be quite happy to assist you in your journey. But there is no journey, as far as I can see. God bless you.

I own three rosaries, and I have no idea how to pray them in spite of guides I have received.  I just find the Rosary unduly complex, confusing and, yes, so repetitive that it practically puts me to sleep.  Maybe I have too short an attention span, but nevertheless I would solve this problem by simplifying the Rosary along the lines of the Stations of the Cross by a contemplation of each Mystery followed by appropriate prayers (including the Ave Maria and the Lord’s Prayer) along with the traditional prayers beginning and ending the whole.  The devotee can always, of course, repeat prayers (especially by repeating them three times in honor of the Holy Trinity) as desired, but this would be a simpler, much less complex, much less confusing and much less repetitive version of the Rosary.

I am not, of course, appealing for such a simplification for official Church sanction but merely for private use in order to allow Rosary klutzes like myself to immerse oneself in the wonders, contemplative glories and devotional treasures of this centuries-old Catholic devotion.

P.S.
Art, you keep saying ‘discussion.’ This is not what I would call a ‘discussion.’ You say you have not mocked our beliefs—really?? As I said, we would be happy to help you if you were searching. You are not. Or if you are, it’s a very strange way of showing it.

Priscilla,
When Jesus said to His disciples He has more to tell them, He is speaking of what He will tell these specific disciples-apostles. What He told them (disciple-apostles) can be found in Acts and the letters. It is their writings that are Scripture. This is what Jesus was referring to. Notice also Jesus does not make any references to other church leaders that will live centuries later.
It is true that John said Jesus did and said many other things he did not record. No one knows what this was so it does not help anyone. All we have from the apostles are their writings that are found in the NT alone.
Where have I mocked yours or anyone’ beliefs here? Please give me an example.

If a person had given honour to the Virgin Mother during his life, on his death bed, he would have an advocate beseeching with the Son on his behalf as she did at the wedding at Cana. On the other hand, should that person had been cruel to the Mother, that soul would hear the accusation from the Son: “Why did you persecute my Mother, my own flesh & blood?” How teribble would that accusation sound at that moment!

It’s impossible for me not to respond to you Art.  Do you protestants always answer a question w/a question?  It’s impossible to dialog with you since you never seem to answer the ques. that’s posed to you or, you change the subject.
Again I’m asking you;  WHAT’S THE REASON YOU ARE READING THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REGISTER?

Okay, Art—one more time! You asked “how am I mocking you?” (perhaps you have a different definition of ‘mocking.’) You (try to) contradict everything we believe with your interpretations. You tell us we are wrong on every point that comes up. It’s amazing how you have such “inside knowledge” - such as you mentioned about what else they would be told, in the passage from John’s gospel.
My husband and I have counseled people who are interested in the Catholic Church. No, we don’t go ‘after’ them—they inquire through an organization set up for that purpose, and we are connected with them that way. My purpose for mentioning this is that people who are sincerely interested and who want to find out more about the Catholic Church ask many questions, and use the references we give them to verify what we tell them in answer.
The difference between you and them (besides the obvious) is that they are questioning their own church, whatever that may be. As I mentioned, with at least 30,000 denominations, how do you tell who is right? These people who are questioning are searching for THE TRUTH. My husband and I are both converts. My journey was a quiet one that can only be described as the leading of the Holy Spirit. My husband’s was different. He began searching, talking to various Protestant ministers, and reading all kinds of books and whatever he could find. After 3 years of intense searching, he settled on the Catholic Church, because he saw the TRUTH. The Holy Spirit led him on a longer trail than mine! But he acquired much knowledge in the process.
When you decide you really want to know about the Catholic Church, let us know.

Art, yes you have mocked our beliefs. We tell you the teachings of the Church and you discount them as merely ‘our opinions.’ I doubt you have ever been around a real Catholic Apologist because you indicate that the apologist says they have no truth to teach.  If that was so, then there would be no reason for a Catholic Apologist, because they would have nothing to say.
We can only answer your questions according to the teachings of the Church, if you don’t like the answers… Tough, it’s the only answer we have to give. We do not change the teachings to suit ourselves, we work on conforming ourselves to God’s teaching. So, ask a question and we will try to give you a Catholic answer, Take It or Leave It, the only proper reply from you would be, “thanks for the input.”
Espy is correct; the Bible is a CATHOLIC book, we wrote it. Further, it’s a book about the ‘Christ’ of God, not the apostles. The King James is an abridged rendering of our book done in the 1600s. Most modern bible scholars admit that the Greek translations used for the King James rendering were of inferior quality. So, who gets to interpret the book; the Author or someone who reads it out of context 1900 years after the fact? (most believe it was written in 70 to 150 ad)
Jesus gave us the sign of the Cross and Resurrection for his authority to lead us.
So again, Art, what is your authority, and what sign do you give us for you changing the teachings of the Christ?

Espe,
I like to dialogue with Roman Catholics. That’s why I read the Register. Why do you read the Register?

Priscilla,
Giving an explanation of a particular passage of Scripture based on good exegesis is not mocking.  Political correctness has no place if we are wanting the truth.  We briefly discussed John 15-16 and I gave you the context and who Jesus was talking to. I have yet to see you counter this exegesis and show me I’m wrong. What is the official interpretation of this passage by the Roman Catholic church?
When Protestants ask you questions about the Marian dogmas do you show them in Scripture where these things are taught?  If you do, which ones? (I have yet to see a Roman Catholic do this) Do you show them that Jesus referred to His mother as the ark or that the Christians of the New Testament prayed to her?
As for 30,000 different protestant denominations issue, have you compared doctrinal statements between a Baptist church and an Assemblies of God on what they teach on the nature of the Scripture and God? Do you think they believe different things about these doctrines?
 

JohnY,
I’m quite familiar how the church of the 4th century put the NT canon together. It was the Spirit of Christ that guided them in “testing” which books belonged in the canon. Are you familiar with how this was done?
Yes, it is true you are giving me your private opinions about your beliefs. Take the meaning of specific passages of Scripture. The church has never produced a work that is the official interpretation of each verse-passage of the Scripture. Using verses and passages to support a doctrine is not the same thing as interpreting it. Priscilla is going to have a very difficult time giving the official interpretation of John 15-16.

What kind of authority does one need to interpret the Scripture correctly? I don’t know of any passage in Scripture that commands a person to be some kind of authority to interpret Scripture. Do you?

The Catholic Encylopedia - The formation of the New Testament canon

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

I found myself daydreaming while saying the Rosary.  I stumbled on a scripture rendition of the Rosary in “An Hour With Jesus,” published by Queenship Publishing Co.  I made up a prayer card with “Hail Mary,” “Glory Be,” O My Jesus…,” “The Our Father,” & “The Apostles’ Creed, which I read, instead of by memory, which keeps my Mind in focus on what I’m saying.  Reading Scriptures before each “Hail Mary” helps you keep your focus on the words in the Prayers

Art, you would have us believe that all knowledge is just an ‘opinion’?  That seems to be your only answer to the question of where you get your authority… everything is just an opinion. So why are you asking questions or making statements, after all, you say they are just your opinions or should we say your assumptions and our answers are the same.
You say that no one has answered “His mother as the ark”. We never claimed that Jesus said it… but it is in the bible, the word used, is only in 2 places, once to refer to the Ark of the Covenant and the other our Blessed Mother.
It’s not just that the 4th century Church put the canon together. Let’s not forget that the Church had to write the books before they could be included in the canon.  They chose the canon according to “Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi,” or the “Law of Prayer is the Law of Believe.”  Or in other words, the canon was based on the prayers that the Church was using and thusly constituted the belief of the Church, not the other way around as you would have us believe.
You said; “the Church has never produced a work that is the official interpretation of each verse.” What nonsense!  The Church has written a definitive book on what the Holy Spirit wants us to know of the written Word… It’s called the Bible! You seem to be claiming that since the Church has never written a line by line explanation of the explanation then you can just ignore what it does teach! For those who wish to learn more, the Church has written an explanation of the major points of Scripture. It’s titled the “Catechism of the Catholic Church.” While we are still exploring what the bible teaches, there are no new teachings to be gleaned; everything we learn must be based on, and an expansion of, the prior teachings of the Church. We can’t disregard the early teachings, we must build on them.
As for your statement of; “passage in Scripture that commands a person to be some kind of authority to interpret Scripture”, that’s also a nonsense statement. We’re not talking about some person ‘being’ an authority, we are talking about who ‘has’ the authority. We are clearly stating that the Church is the final Authority when it comes to interpreting the book of Scripture that she wrote. Or in other words, the author of a book is the only one who can definitely define what the book says.
But all this is readily available in many to anyone who wishes to look and learn. I answer this only in an effort to prevent your confusion from spreading to others.
Peace and Grace to all of you who are seeking.

I give up, Art.
Of course I answered your question, or whatever you called it, about John 15-16, but you have the “right” interpretation, so why do I bother. We, as Catholics, believe in Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church. We believe that, yes indeed, the Holy Spirit has revealed many things to many people over the centuries. We believe in all that is in Scripture, but we also read early Church documents which indicate how the early Christians celebrated their new faith, and what they believed about Mary and the Real Presence. And no, I"m not going to debate any of this with you. You have no real desire to learn - only to try to conquer.

Hi Chuck Ross, it’s a great point you make. I too keep a cheat sheet with the prayers on them, especially with the new translation of the Creed. I also keep the mysteries written out so when my mind starts to wander off, it’s easy to bring me back on track. Keep up the good work, and thanks for bringing us back on subject.  Peace

JohnY - loved your post. I wonder if the JBC (Jerome Bible Commentary) or any of the other commentaries would be of use to Art?  Probably not—he appears to be one of those who indicates ‘I know what I believe - don’t confuse me with the truth.”

Art: To respond to your response of 4/30/12 @ 1:29pm
There you go again, asking a question with a question. I will still answer your ques. that I actually asked you!  I read the NCR for the obvious, (dah!) I’m a Catholic!!
When Martin Luther decided to start his “own church” he took out 7 books that were in the holy bible. Why? Because he decided that they were not important.  He also decided to change several thing’s in the bible and then, “walla!”  He became god!
Are you aware that Jesus Christ plainly stated, “DO NOT ADD, NOR DETRACT FROM MY WORD” and yet your false god, Martin Luther did just that!  So you see, that makes you a “heretic.”
I was at a function last summer where religion was being discussed and a woman asked me, what religion was I, I stated Roman Catholic.  She then went on to name her minister and I asked her, “so, who started your church?”  She stated, why pastor Bremlen.  I then said to her “you know who started mine?  She looked surprised and said, no who?  I stated, “Jesus Christ” started my church.  She became rather flushed and walked away….
You on the other hand really have no intention of dialog since you seem to be rather full of a deep seeded hatred for Catholics and you insist to give your own opinion and who knows?  Maybe someday we will hear of yet another protestant church called, “the church of Art.”  I will pray to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN to intercede on your behalf.

Espe,
I suggest you study church history. The church of the NT was not Roman Catholic in its doctrines nor structure. For example, there were no Marian dogmas. These dogmas were unknown to the apostles and the early Christians. In terms of the structure of the church, there was no office of a supreme leader i.e. pope. See I Timothy 3 and Ephesians 4:11-12.

Where did the Lord Jesus or His apostles ever teach or command anyone to pray to a queen of heaven?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah’s_Witnesses

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe their religion is a restoration of first-century Christianity.[145] The religion makes no provision for members to criticize or contribute to official teachings[146] and all Witnesses must abide by its doctrines and organizational requirements.[147] Regular personal Bible reading is frequently recommended; Witnesses are strongly discouraged from formulating doctrines and “private ideas” reached through Bible research independent of Watch Tower Society publications, and are cautioned against reading other religious literature.[148][149][150] Adherents are told to have “complete confidence” in the leadership, avoid skepticism about what is taught in the Watch Tower Society’s literature, and “not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding”.[151][152][153][154]

Dismas,
A lot of Jehovah’s Witnesses are former Roman Catholics.

Espe:
Why am I being lumped in with Art? I am a cradle Catholic, and pray the rosary daily.

GregB,
I was wondering the same thing. :)

Greg:  Just where do you come in?  I haven’t said anything to you nor about you and this is the first time I’m seeing your name on the comments?  Better check your info!

Art: Your comment to Dismas on: 4/30/12 @ 6:30 pm.  And so, Artless, what is your point?  Thousands of ex-protestants and ministers have come into the Catholic church too!  I belong to the “Coming Home Network International” for protestants/muslims/jews have come home to the Truth in the Catholic church.  Marcus Grodi is the founder of the “Coming Home Network” and an ex-presbyterian and an ultra conservative Catholic.  If you have cable, watch EWTN.  EWTN is the Catholic cable station and Marcus Grodi show is on Sunday evenings.

Let’s face it.  You are not here on NCR to dialog since you refuse to delve into the truth and when the truth is mentioned, you have your own condesending opinion to belittle our Mother church. 
As to your comment on: 4/30/12 @ 5:36pm
I suggest YOU study the “real” church history like I mentioned to you yesterday on the “early church fathers.” I also mentioned to you before, Jesus Christ established His church first, the holy bible was put together by Catholic monks a couple hundred years later so, we gave christianity the bible.  The Marian dogmas were unknown to the apostles because “Our Queen” was still alive and as far as a “Supreme” leader of the church, that title was given to St.Peter by Jesus Christ Himself.
Please read the following;  (unless there haven’t been made anymore changes recently in your king james bible in the past 24hrs)
PRIMACY OF PETER:
Mt. 16:18,  Mt. 16:19,  Lk 22:32,  Jn 21:17,  Mk 16:7,  Lk24:34,  Acts 1:13-26,  Acts 2:14,  Acts 2:41,  Acts 3:6-7,  Acts 5:1-11,  Acts 8:21,  Acts 10:44-46,  Acts 15:7,  Acts 15:19,  Gal 1:18,  Mt 10: 1-4, 3:16-19 Lk 6:14-16 Acts 1:13,  Lk 9:32,  Mk 16:7,  Mt 18:21;  Mk 8:29;  Lk 8:45, 12:41; Jn 6:69 St.Peter’s name occurs more then 195 times in the holy bible.
I also would highly suggest that unless you are willing to dialog, listen, read the “Early Church Fathers” as I’ve mentioned to you yesterday, then and only then will you make some sense.  A suggestion: Stick with your own protestant newspaper.

Espe,
None of those verses support the idea that Peter was the supreme leader (pope) of the NT church. No apostle in their writing appeal to Peter as the supreme leader of the church. In fact, in the 2 letters we have of his he never makes such a claim for himself. He actually considers himself as a fellow elder (1 Peter 5:1) and not some kind of pope. Peter did play a significant leadership role in the NT but neither he nor the other apostles thought of him as some kind of pope. In fact in the first council of the church in Acts 15 he is not the one in charge either. James is. 
In the first centuries of the church there were 3 major centers for Christianity. Jerusalem, Constantinople and Rome. Each of these major centers were run by a plurality of bishops and elders. Its not until much later that we see the papacy developing. 
Did you know that the council of 325 was not called by a pope but by Constantine?

I haven’t read the church fathers. Have you? Its my understanding there are 38 volumes. I have yet to meet a Roman Catholic who has read these works. (Church father quote books don’t count as reading the church fathers).

Art:  I’ve got some very critical information right from the lips of the one and only, “Jesus Christ.”  Please read the scriptures I’m giving you.
BIBLE ALONE OR BIBLE PLUS TRADITION?

1Cor 11:2   Hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2Thess 2:15 Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 Shun those acting not according to tradition
Jn 21:25   Not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31   Heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20:35 Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13   Follow my sound words;  guard the truth
2Tim 2:2   What you heard entrust to faithful men
2Pet 1:20   No prophecy is a matter of private interpretation
1Pet 1:25   God’s eternal word=word preached to you
Rom 10:17   Faith comes from what is heard
1Cor 15:1-2 Being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached
Mt 23: 2-3 Chair of Moses;  observe whatever they tell you

St. Athanasius (360 AD): “Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers.  On this was the Church founded; AND IF ANYONE DEPARTS FROM THIS, HE NEITHER IS NOR ANY LONGER OUGHT TO BE CALLED A CHRISTIAN…” Four Letters to Serapion of Thmius 1, 28 Origen (c 230 AD)  “The teaching of the Church as indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the Apostles, and remains in the Churches even to the present time.  That alone is to be believed as the truth which is in no way at variance with ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition.

Okay Art, I’ve given you enough info. to read and ponder on and hopefully at some point, you will let the Holy Spirit move you.

Art;  It’s pointless trying to dialog w/you because you have formed your own opinion and have your own interpretation of how the bible should be read.  Next heretical church,  “the church of Art.”

I’m done dialoging since it’s only one sided.  Go preach to the choir, Maybe they will listen to a heretic!

espe,
Thank you for those passages of Scripture. Remember: only the Scripture is inspired-inerrant. It is never said in the Scripture that tradition is so.
When Athanasius (360 AD) wrote this: “Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers.” he was not referring to the Marian dogmas because the Lord never taught these things. It was never a tradition of the Catholic church where the apostles taught the Marian dogmas. Not one apostle taught what the RCC teaches about Mary.
The Catholic church is not the same thing as the Roman Catholic church. The Roman Catholic church teaches things the apostles never did. That’s why I have been asking you and the others to show from the apostles writings (NT) that they taught she was sinless, assumed into heaven or prayed to. Its not there.
Will you let the Holy Spirit lead you to understand these truths? 
 

Art:  You totally missed the point!  I gave you these scriptures to prove to you that tradition was part of Christ’s preaching!!  Can’t you not read??  Tradition and Oral tradition is very important and just because it’s not in the bible, that doesn’t mean that it’s not true!  Just what is it that you don’t understand?  I gave you this info. to refute your opinions.  I’m not responding to you so stop blogging since you don’t want to understand anything except your opinion.
Go pester your fellow heretics!!!!

Epse -

He’s Jehovah’s Witnesses which is a millenialist restorationist Christian denomination with nontrinitarian beliefs distinct from mainstream Christianity. It’s more a cult than Christianity.

It’s pointless to dialogue with him not because he has formed his own opinions, but because he must submit to the doctrines established by the Governing Body, which assumes responsibility for interpreting and applying scripture. Watch Tower Society publications teach that doctrinal changes and refinements result from a process of progressive revelation, in which God gradually reveals his will and purpose. The religion makes no provision for members to criticize or contribute to official teachings[146] and all Witnesses must abide by its doctrines and organizational requirements. Formal discipline is administered by congregation elders. When a baptized member is accused of committing a serious sin—usually involving offenses against the religion’s code of personal morality[222] or charges of apostasy for disputing the Watch Tower Society’s doctrines. 

Witnesses are strongly discouraged from formulating doctrines and “private ideas” reached through Bible research independent of Watch Tower Society publications, and are cautioned against reading other religious literature.[148][149][150] Adherents are told to have “complete confidence” in the leadership, avoid skepticism about what is taught in the Watch Tower Society’s literature, and “not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding”

And I know the truth Art, it’s you who need the Holy Spirit to lead you to the truth.
“Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
Holy Mary, mother of God pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. 
Mother of God, through your powerful intercession, I ask that you bring this petition and place it in your son’s Holy hands that He hears our prayers and brings Art to the fullness of the truth and that you beloved mother, will in some way, also touch his heart.
I ask this in your Son’s Holy name,  AMEN

DISMAS:  You are so right! It’s almost scary in a way, it’s Satan “the Evil one” infiltrating every sigment of our world and now the NCR!

He needs our prayers and I believe that Our Lady will touch him in some way.

espe wrote:
*
Greg:  Just where do you come in?  I haven’t said anything to you nor about you and this is the first time I’m seeing your name on the comments?  Better check your info!
*************************************
I did.  Use your web browser’s find command to search for Greg on this web page and all will become clear.
In your arguments for oral Tradition, you will find support for it in Rabbinic Judaism, in the form of the Oral Torah.  I have read the writings of modern rabbis where they freely cite these extra-Scriptural sources in their teachings.  The Catholic Church didn’t invent Tradition out of whole cloth.

espe - you’re right, I also believe Our Lady will touch him in some way as well.

Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.  Pray for those with no recourse to thee.  Pray for all souls recommended to thee, especially enemies of our Church.

DISMAS:  Beautiful and powerful prayer.  I couldn’t have said it better myself!  Amen brother Dismas!

Espe, I’m impressed (not) Art read all 27 passages you suggested, reflected on them, allowed the Holy Spirit to speak to him, AND wrote his response in what, 17 minutes. Wow, that’s really something…

Just to clarify some more nonsense that seem to keep popping up, the Church of the NT came to be called the Roman Catholic Church. And yes, as stated earlier, the doctrines and structures were refined from the traditions and teachings of the earliest days. The Church, being founded by the Christ has the authority to set up the structure and doctrines of the Church, that’s just common sense.
Jerusalem was sacked and the temple was destroyed in the year 70. Around 132-135A.D. Jerusalem was conquered again and the Jews (and that crazy Christian sect) were forbidden to enter Jerusalem under pain of death, so I don’t think it became a large center of Christianity. The Church called for the council of 325, Constantine sponsored (paid for) the event. Formalizing the title of Pope came later, but there was always a head of the Church.
There are many things in the Church that are called by different names today. After all, it was a NEW Testament, so new things would have to be defined and given names. Once again, common sense. To use the quote credited to Athanasius, he said it “was preached by the apostles and preserved by the Fathers.” Lets see, ‘preached’ and ‘preserved’, hmmm, not written, but preached, sounds like tradition to me.
It seems to me that most Dogma that has been defined over the years was common knowledge in the Church until some protesting person suddenly decides it’s no longer true. So the Church carefully and prayerfully investigates and issues the one True Statement. Again, its common sense that the Church is the one with the authority to state what it teaches.

LITANY OF MARY

Lord, Father of the Mother, hear us
Lord, Spouse of the Virgin, hear us
Lord, Child of the Daughter, hear us
Lord, all in all to Our Lady, hear us
Mother of divine mercy,
Carrier of the Word,
show us your Son
and hear our plea
Delight of the Trinity, pray for us
Immaculate creation of the Lord, pray for us
Above all the angels, pray for us
Child of the eternal Father, pray for us
Handmaiden of the Most high, pray for us
Vessel of innocence, pray for us
Eager anticipation of rebirth, pray for us
Bearer of good fruit, pray for us
Birthplace of God, pray for us
New mother of mankind, pray for us
First temple of the Church, pray for us
Guardian of truth, pray for us
Spouse of love, pray for us
Faithful wife of paternal protection, pray for us
Heart of a holy family, pray for us
Leaven of heavenly food, pray for us
Conduit of pure grace, pray for us
Practice of virtue, pray for us
Finder of the missing, pray for us
Consoler of the wounded, pray for us
Instigator of miracles, pray for us
Companion in the way of Calvary, pray for us
Mourner in the cross, pray for us
Caretaker of the Body of Christ, pray for us
Hope in the resurrection, pray for us
Reunion in the Lord, pray for us
Perfection of the Holy Spirit, pray for us
Queen of the throne of creation, pray for us
Mantle of all the saints, pray for us
Sure guide in the heart of the Lord, pray for us
Cause of our joy, pray for us

Thanks Priscilla, it was fun writing it. And you’re right, the JBC will not help, Art is not here to learn or inquire. And as the others have stated, he avoids the pertinent questions put to him and just comes back with… non-sense statements. I try not to waste to much time on that type, but sometimes, especially when they start messing with my Mama… well it just demands answers from all of us so that people just browsing the page will not think that junk was the least bit convincing.
Peace

Thanks Herman,  nice Litnay.

JohnY,
Your mother is not the same as the Lord Jesus. How I wish the Roman Catholics knew Scripture instead of embracing these non-bibilcal-non-apostolic doctrines. Talk about junk!

JohnY,
Athanasius would not have known anything of the Marian doctrines since these beliefs developed long after he was dead. In fact the there were church fathers such as Augustine and popes who believed Mary had sinned.

Wow,Art, you are the “Real McCoy” when it comes to Catholic Haters.  “How I wish the Roman Catholics knew Scripture instead of embracing these non-bibilcal-non-apostolic doctrines. Talk about junk!” Oh, really????? And who compiled the Holy Book under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit?????? Here is Jesus and He has been quoted above for you : “They will hate you because they Hated me first”. But sadly for you, this Barque of Peter, will be there, active, robust and authentically teaching, proclaiming and defending Christ’s Faith until the End of Time.  Her Founder and Bridegroom said so.  He is God and God is Truth.

Power of the Rosary in practice: Throughout history, The power of the rosary played a decisive part in the freedom of my country, Malta a little island in the Mediterranean.  During 1565 the onslaught of the powerful Ottomen empire raviging the Eastern part of Europe and the Balkans up to Austria could not conquer the island. During World War ll, when the Nazi regime had conquered most of Europe, tiny Malta would not capitulate.  Being the most bombed place on Earth it stood firm despite the lack of defensive armaments except for the rosary. But then people did pray.

Would it be correct in saying that the DNA of Jesus, the Son of God be that of his virgin mother Mary?  Some medical expert response?

Oh gosh, “the EVIL ONE” is back again…..

We just need to keep on praying that he finds his way back to wherever he came from

Hail, Mary, Daughter of God the Father; Hail Mary, mother of God the Son; Hail Mary, Spouse of the Holy Spirit; Hail, Mary, Temple of the most Holy Trinity; Hail, Mary, my Mistress, my treasure, my joy, Queen of my heart; my Mother, my life, my sweetness, my dearest hope—yea, my heart and my soul!  I am all thine and all that I have is thine, O virgin blessed above all thing’s!  Let your soul be in me to magnify the Lord; let your spirit be in me to rejoice in God.  Set yourself, O faithful virgin, as a seal upon my heart, that in you and through you I may be found faithful to God.  Receive me, O gracious virgin, among those whom you love and teach, whom you lead, nourish and protect as your children.  Grant that for love of you I may despise all earthly consolations and ever cling to those of Heaven until, through you, His faithful spouse, Jesus Christ your Son be formed in me for the Glory of the Father,  AMEN

The interesting thing is that the New Testament contains two examples of oral teaching. One is in Lk 24.27 where Christ interpreted the Scriptures for the two disciples on the road to Emmaus.  The second one is in Acts 8.26-40 where Philip had an encounter with the Ethiopian eunuch where Philip interpreted Isaiah. The dialog in Acts 8.30-31 is of particular note. The Emmaus encounter has a structure that looks very much like the Mass, the Liturgy of the Word followed by the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
To get back on topic, to me Mary’s life fits in very well with the ways of Contemplative Prayer.  The Immaculate Conception and Mary’s sufferings during Christ’s Passion and Death are very much in the Purgative Way.  To me the Incarnation looks like the Prayer of Union. The Immaculate Conception and Mary’s fiat produced the conformity of wills that is at the core of this form of Contemplative Prayer.  Mystics in the Spiritual Marriage stage of the Prayer of Union are in a state of very high spiritual purity. Mary is called the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, which fits right in with the Spiritual Marriage. To me the Incarnation has to be the highest form of the Prayer of Union possible for a purely human contemplative.

Hadrian, of course the DNA and Blood Group of Jesus is that of His Immaculate Mother. Proved by the Eucharistic Miracle of Luciano which took place over 1,300 years ago and is still ongoing, after Consecration, the Host became a human flesh heart tissue. The wine turned into human Blood Group AB. Through the Holy Spirit, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity was incarnated in Holy Mary’s womb. The Virgin Mother gave God the human Body and Blood which would be sacrificed for the salvation of mankind. Venerating the Immaculate Mother of God, praying to God through her, and asking her to pray for us and intercede for us is the sure way of being certain our Prayers will be answered.  Her Son can never deny her anything. Next to God, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, Christ’s Mother is the holiest of all God’s Creation.  She it is, who was conceived without Original Sin because God could not have taken a human body from one who had the Stain of Original Sin of our first Parents. And so, as Angel Gabriel addressed her - and as we, her children call her - she is Full of Grace. She is the only one of God’s Creation before whom Satan trembles and hurls himself to the deepest Hole in Hell.

Mary gave nothing to God. It was all of His work in securing salvation. Again, there is nothing in Scripture that says we are to pray to God through Mary. If you want your prayers answered you must pray according to the will of God (I John 5:14)  in the name of Christ (John 15:16) and to have His word abiding in you (John 15:7).

Art, I really don’t think any of us can reach you, though goodness knows we’ve tried. I have one more question for you: I assume you are aware of the commandment to “honor thy father and mother.” Would not Jesus have obeyed that command in regard to his own mother??  Just ‘yes’ or ‘no’ will do. If you can.

Priscilla,
The command to honor your father and mother only applies to those in this world. Jesus would have honored His mother thereby fulfilling the commandment. Keep in mind that this relationship that Jesus had with His mother would apply only to Him while in the world as a man. It does not apply to anyone else except to Jesus’ brothers and sisters when they were alive.
Mary is no more your mother than my mother is to you. Agreed?

I never claimed that my Mama was the same as the Christ. Once again, some misleading statement inserted followed by; Blah, Blah, Blah.
Through it seems we’re making progress!  Now he seems to be admitting that there is the Bible and then there is the Apostolic! (note the “non-bibilcal-non-apostolic doctrines”, the ‘s’ on doctrine)That’s what we’ve been trying to tell him.  I do agree with the last statement made in his post, to quote, Art is talking about junk.

Wow, some people make big claims about things they know nothing about! They seem to claim to know ‘what really happened’ in the early Church and then just totally dismiss what the Church (who was there) teaches. They offer lots of ‘opinions’ and then try to justify them by quoting people (not the Church). When you explain the quote, they change the story, ‘I didn’t mean that… I meant what he said about blah, blah, blah.
It’s amazing how they just put God in a little box; he can do this, but not Blah, Blah, Blah.
How tiresome.
But it’s the out and out miss leading statements (ah lies?) that really irk me. I mean, how can we dialog when there is no truth from one side?  Wasting time fighting lies…
But again, to keep the confusion down here’s a quote from someone Art cited.
“The world being unworthy to receive the Son of God directly from the hands of the Father, he gave his Son to Mary for the world to receive him from her.”  —Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church
And from St. Augustine page on Wikipedia:
Mariology
Although Augustine did not develop an independent Mariology, his statements on Mary surpass in number and depth those of other early writers. Even before the Council of Ephesus, he defended the ever Virgin Mary as the Mother of God, who, because of her virginity, is full of grace. Likewise, he affirmed that the Virgin Mary “conceived as virgin, gave birth as virgin and stayed virgin forever.
Oh! What was that? “Even before the Council.”
And who was the other guy cited, was it “St. Athanasius the Great” church Father? Hardly someone who would disparage our Blessed Mother.

John,
Of course you claimed Mary is your mother—“I try not to waste to much time on that type, but sometimes, especially when they start messing with my Mama…”
Roman Catholics do believe that Mary is their mother. The mother of Jesus is your mother too according to your church. Right?
All apostolic doctrines-teachings-writings are found only in the NT and nowhere else. Its called Scripture.

Hi Hadrian, the bible tells us that “she conceived by the Spirit” so yes Jesus would carry whatever part of her DNA that any child would of their mother.
It’s interesting that Mary@42 brought up the Eucharistic Miracle of Luciano, I seem to remember reading that they compare the blood type to another Eucharistic Miracle and they matched! Both miracles happened long before we knew anything about blood types.  Wow!

Well let’s see, if Jesus is my brother… Gee, that would make Mary my mother.  Perhaps some have no concept of adoption…

Ok put-up or shut-up time.  Art claims: “All apostolic doctrines-teachings-writings are found only in the NT and nowhere else.”  So, for all us poor dumb miss-informed Catholics, WHERE does it say that in the bible? Please give chapter and verse where it says: “all apostolic doctrines- blah, blah, blah are found only in the NT and nowhere else.”

John,
Mary did not give Christ to the world. It is the Father Who sent-gave the Son into the world to save it (John 3:16-17). Jesus laid down His life by His own authority (John 10:18).
As for Mary being a virgin forever that claim does not hold up to the facts of Scripture. Consider:
1) No mention of it in the Scripture.  None of the authors of Scripture claim she was a perpetual virgin. 
2) The passage in Luke 1:48 in which Mary says she is a virgin does not mean she took a vow of perpetual virginity.  It is only that she is a virgin up to this point in time.
3) The idea that a person who is about to be married is taking or has taken a vow of perpetual virginity is unheard of Biblically. There is no indication from the OT or NT that it would be acceptable to be married and yet chose to be a perpetual virgin. Married Jewish couples were to be fruitful and multiply. This is OT teaching.
4) When brothers and sisters are used in connection with father or mother then it does not mean cousins but actual blood brothers and sisters. See Matthew 13:55-56, Mark 3:31-32; Mark 6:3; John 2:12; Galatians 1:19
5) In the previous passages noted the best way to understand these relationships “brothers-sisters” is that these are siblings of Jesus by blood.
6) There is no hint in Scripture that Joseph was previously married and had children.
7) Paul refers to James as the “brother of the Lord” in Galatians 1:19.
8) There are Greek words for cousin—anepsios as in Colossians 4:10 or kinsman = sungenis which is used in Luke 1:36

Augustine taught that Mary, like everyone else was a sinner:
“Augustine Bishop of Hippo “Whatever flesh of sin Jesus took, He took of the flesh of the sin of his mother. Jesus did not partake of sin, but took of his mother, which came under the judgment of sin.”
Augustine “ He, Christ alone, being made man but remaining God never had any sin, nor did he take of the flesh of sin. Though He took flesh of the sin of his mother.”
Ambrose (c. 339-97):
No Conception is without iniquity, since there are no parents who have not fallen.
For translation, see I. D. E. Thomas, The Golden Treasury of Patristic Quotations (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone Publishing, 1996), p. 258.”

John,
When Paul mentions adoption in Romans 8:15-17 there is no mention, no hint that Mary is involved in the least as part of the adoption. It is all done by Christ because of our union with Him. That union is in Christ and not Mary. Mary is never said to be a parent of any Christian.
The only apostles are those that are mentioned in the NT. Their are no apostolic writings outside the NT.

Art, I cannot believe we are still even acknowledging you. Again I say, why are you here? You obviously know everything, so your only reason appears to be to “share” your great “knowledge” and put everyone else down in the process. And no, I do NOT agree with your bizarre interpretation of the commandment to honor your parents. Nor with your ASSURANCE that Mary was pretty much a nobody who just happened to give birth to Jesus. Be assured that our responses at this point are like JohnY said - so that others reading this will not be misled.

“Mary did not give Christ to the world” nonsense statement. She conceived and gave birth to Christ, which was what she was asked to do by God.
“Mary being a virgin forever” comes from the bible. Briefly, the ‘how can this be for I have not known man’, tells the tell. When you look at uses of ‘know’ (have sex with) in the bible it is in the ‘perfect’ tense allowing for the fact that someone may ‘know’ in the future. In Mary’s case it is used in the ‘persent’ tense, meaning not now and not in the future.
“vow of perpetual virginity is unheard of biblically”.  No, it’s in there, if you know where to look. As so it was part of the church from the start.
“previous passages noted… brothers-sisters”  No, again that’s what you say, not what the bible teaches. The bible does not make the point one way or the other.
“No hint… Joseph was previously married”  Nonsense statement, the bible was not about Joseph so why would it comment.
“James… brother of the Lord”  look at the Greek before you put your modern opinions on it.
“there are greek words for cousin…” again, so?  Does not the bible have something in it about Jesus saying “Who is my Mother and Who is my Brother”?
I’m not sure about about your Augustine quote, it sounds a bit out of context. Was the translation do by the same guy the wrote “the Omega Conspiacy”? (signs that point to a return of mysterious beings known in the Bible as “Nephilim”. The Omega Conspiracy could well be their final battle.)
But off the top of my head I think it would have something to do with the way the early Fathers spoke about earthly verses heavenly things. Not that Mary was sin. I think this quote from Augustine’s Nature and Grace clarifys this. “We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine,Nature and Grace,42(A.D.415),in NPNF1,V:135
Doesn’t the bible say something about Jesus taking on our flesh, becoming sin…

”no hint that Mary is involved in the least as part of the adoption”  nonsense statement. It’s My adoption, and I’m smart enough to know who I was adopted by.

Ps. Didn’t someone on the blog say; “(Church father quote books don’t count as reading the church fathers)”

Priscilla,
Do you agree with Mary@42 that “Venerating the Immaculate Mother of God, praying to God through her, and asking her to pray for us and intercede for us is the sure way of being certain our Prayers will be answered.  Her Son can never deny her anything.”?

Our Immaculate Mother, as she did at Cana, will always intercede before her Son, before her God,  for her sinful children. That puts my mind at rest since I do not know how to humble myself or I am unfworthy to go before God.

Art, I’m through trying to help you understand what we as Catholics believe. Yes, of course I honor the Blessed Mother and pray the Rosary. But I will not be drawn into your arguments - you twist everything and put your own spin on it, so why try to explain the nuances of our devotion to the Great Mother of God??? We’ve been there, and done that—over and over and over. Enough.

My dear beloved Catholic Faithful, let us just give Art a rest.  This is the Holy Month of the Holy Rosary.  Let us be on our knees praying the Holy Rosary as our Beloved Mother asked us to in Fatima in 1917 for the peace to the world.  There is much violence, so much suffering, so much negative attitudes and hates. Mankind is suffering and we need Our Mother to intercede for us. The Arts of this world’s Mission in Life is to trash our Faith in our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church;  founded by Jesus Christ Himself upon Peter the Rock, and in Apostolic Succession, we now have the physical Head in the person of our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI. All I would ask Art and his/her comrades is to respect our Faith. We respect theirs and never, ever go to their Websites to insult them. Kindly, Art, be civilized and leave our Holy Catholic Faith alone.

Art, you do realize that EVERY one of the original Reformation leaders believed very heavily in Mary? Martin Luther was very well known and vocal about his Marian devotion. Art is an example of what happens when you follow a man manufactured religion and not the religion started by Jesus Christ. Tell me Art, you say the Bible is all that matters. What did Jesus give us when he was here on Earth? The BIBLE? NO NO NO. He gave us the CHURCH. “On this rock I will build my Church…”. Think it over.

I notice more heat than light on the ‘doctrines of Jehovah’s Witnesses.’ Anyone wanting to discuss it should read at least something here
http://www.watchtower.org/
or here
http://www.jw.org/
I have spent several hours reading the Baltimore and another Catechism I have; I use the Jerusalem and NAB bible often. (Here I usually get my quotes from the newadvent Douay.) Some of you Catholics could stand to widen out likewise.