In the meantime many are passing into eternity every day.

Matthew I was unaware of this:
“Pavao Zanic and his successor, Ratko Peric, ed) have expressed themselves strongly and without hesitation against the authenticity of the apparitions.”

The fruit of conversion speaks so loudly as the fruit of these Apparitions.

That his was a hoax has been plain almost from the get go.

http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com/

http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/Archives/cw_feb98/surmanci.html

The whole thing breaks my heart. The fact that two apparitions, this one and Bayside, basically have the Madonna having a catfight with herself makes a profound statement. A dear friend of mine returned from Med. with glowing tearfilled eyes proclaiming the lovely masses she attended. How do I tell her that priest was stripped of his ordination and booted from the Franciscans 20 years ago? Another friend of mine returned from there with the ability to see death. She knows when everyone around her will die. She has no inclination to return to the faith she left ages ago. But now she lives in constant despair.

Some fruit…

Michael Davies’ book on the hoax - with a lot of documentation - can be downloaded free at this link

http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com/

Given that Pope John XXIII’s opening speech to the Second Vatican Council publicly eschewed the Catholic Church’s use of ecclesiastical discipline (without which all is chaos), and given that no subsequent Pope has publicly declared Holy Mother Church must retrace her false steps down that Primrose Path, I think it likely that The Commission will seek to please all parties involved and will not condemn what is obviously a hoax

THis was written in 2002….

!.... All together up till now: about 40,000 “apparitions”! Indeed, one gets the impression that some “visionaries” determine where and when the Madonna “appears” since the appearance happens when and where they want. Is this not an inadmissible manipulation of Our Lady and the Sacred in general?

As the diocesan bishop, with this statement I want to inform the faithful that the visit of Cardinal Christoph Schönborn does not imply any recognition of the authenticity of the “apparitions” related to Medjugorje. I regret that the Cardinal, with his visit, appearance, and statements, has added new sufferings to those already present of this local Church which do not contribute to its much needed peace and unity.

+Ratko Peri?, Bishop”

FORTY THOUSAND APPARITIONS as of 2002 (I wonder what the current total is).

Seriously, who in their right mind thinks this is what Mary is about?

Who are we to question faith? Posts here make me think we are caving from the world as it is today, one devoid of faith. Sounds as if some of you would give Moses a hard time.

Why not just wait? I suspect the pope has an inkling of at one or some of the dates of the secrets of Medjugorje, and some kind of knowledge (from the Holy Spirit?) that it is true. If so, as pope his job is to get all of his flock in line with following the messages instead of the flock wasting time arguing over its authenticity - because he knows the time is short before the secrets begin, and once they begin, it will be too late for many in sin to be saved. This explanation makes the most sense to me.  (put yourself in his shoes - pretend you know beyond doubt that a great ‘storm’ is coming soon that will wipe out a large number of your followers, and a supernatural warning is being given to them about it, but your followers are wasting time arguing over whether or not the supernatural warning is authentic instead of preparing for the “storm”. But due to the nature of his position of leadership, he cannot just come out and say it is true so prepare. The doubters, not being given the same gift of knowledge of the truth of the supernatural warning that he has, would still doubt, and in addition grow suspicious of their leader. No, he has to choose a path of gently leading all of his followers to the truth of what is coming upon us, hence the commission. That is my opinion, anyway, as one possibility of why he has formed a commission rather than just waiting for the storm. )

Continuing, it is as if Jonah came to Nineveh and instead of repenting the city spent all of its forty days arguing over whether or not Jonah is an authentic prophet.

The ruling by the local bishops and their own commission does stand. The diobedience by those involved and supporters is so phenomenal that the Bishop of the area asked the Vatican to intervene. When will we, as Catholic, go to document facts and Church norms to help our understanding.  The Bishops for good, objective and non biased reasons found nothing supernatural. The huge problem is not the validity it is the disobedience. Do we not read the lives of saints even to understand the Churches discernment through obedience. This is a key area that is overlooked outrageously.  One “visionary” was recently interviewd by the commission and returned with more revelations that would tantalize and grab folloers in a diabolical effort to cinch the emotions.  Her statements as advertised by Spirit Daily are not the actions of the people of approved apparitions.  30 years is just enough time for the kids to retire isn’t it>  In Guadalupe, Lourdes and Fatima the visionaries were all asked by the bishops to ask the BVM for a sign and Mary who is obedience herself responded with sure signs. In this instance, Mary is the epitomy of disobedience and anti-Church. The bishops of the area are bishops who are all in communion with the Church and have a true devotion to BVM they are not flaming liberals. So the bottom line is not that some like, some don’t like and there is anger etc. the bottom line is in your face disobedience and if all Catholics can’t see that them the problem is with catechesis and more.

Even Divine Mercy was not allowed for how long before JPII. Some saints we opposed at first, it’s for the ones that discern from the heart as well as the head. The Heart must lead the head for to have Mercy and not judgment as the Pharisees showed the world. The heart is the deeper mind lead by the Holy Spirit. Any thing bad will not bring down those that are solid in Christ and His Church so we need not panic and say I must save the WORLD from this and act from emotion in and not zeal. BTW the first bishop in the begining believe so much had tried to talk Father Jozo in believing it was true. But the now Bishop was there too around too, just to get that straight. God is in control remember that as the events are picking up no at even faster pace as and we were told the US will be brought to our knees though natural disasters, one right after another.

Oh, and about what Ivan said. He has nine secrets, not ten, so he does not yet have full knowledge of what is transpiring. And while Our Lady might not have used the words Second Coming or spoke of it in that way, Ivanka, who does have all ten secrets, says she has ten secrets about the last chapters in the history of this planet, and she says they will unfold sooner than many think.

And as for the end of the world, Our Lady would not talk about that because according to our faith as found in the catechism the world never ends - but it does get changed, restored to the original glory of its creation. Tellingly, Ivan mentioned ‘physical changes’ of the world are coming. Jakov and other seers say those who follow the messages, who live the Gospel, who reconcile with God in this special time of grace will live on (no doubt into the changed, restored world.) Those who don’t, will not.

Hence the pope has formed the commission, so more of his flock will live on. That is my opinion. Have a good day.

God bless you.

Seems to me the good fruits are enormous. I dont think the evil one wants people to be saved. Therefore, I’ll wait and hope for positive results regarding Medjugorje. Also i dont look for signs in the sky, the sun spinning etc. I read the messages and they are all calling people back to Christ…so far all good fruits.

I’m ok with waiting the next 30 years to see what happens before I make a definite decision. I’ve seen arguments on both sides for why it is definitely real and why it definitely is fake. Both seem to be based on individual experiences with Medj. and assumptions about our Lady. I think in the end it will be worth the wait. :)

I don’t go for apparitions, approved or not, and this is a perfect example of why.
When something causes division and strife within the Body of Christ that is all the proof I need to leave it alone.

I stand with Bishop Peric, who is the competent ecclesial authority over the Church’s recognition of these apparitions.

No one may claim the conversions or healings as proof of a visionary’s authenticity.  Even when they say that they healed the sick and cast out demons in name of Jesus, he might say to them, “I knew you not.”  That is his warning to us to trust in him, and not in phenomena.  How are you healed?  By your faith you are healed.

If I remember correctly, the original Bishop believed in the apparitions until the then communist party imprisoned several of his priests for being “revolutionaries”.  I also believe several Priests were murdered on the steps of one of the churches there.  The current Bishop is against Medjugorje but has also publically stated he does not believe in Lourdes or Fatima. The Bishop is reported to have never investigated Medjugorje, never spoken with or interviewed the visionaries, and visits Medjugorje only rarely for Confirmations and official functions. But with this said, the important issue is that Bishop Ratko Peric does not have authority over the Churchs decision on Medjugorje. This responsibility still rests with the commission of Bishops. The local Bishop’s negative comments about Medjugorje were addressed directly in 1998 by the Holy See in a letter to his Excellency Mons. Gilbert Aubry, Bishop of Saint-Denis de la Reunion. The letter states that Bishop Peric’s position on Medjugorje is his personal opinion, which he is entitled to as local Bishop, but remains his personal opinion. The URL for this letter is Newletter.htm.  John Paul II was said to have unofficially spoken favorable about the place.  Benedict XVI has no position.  The jury is still out if you ask me.

I have been to medjugorje 20 times and firmly believe
Mary appears daily there.
To see mary on cross mountain go to www.visions of Jesus Christ.comm
Also if anyone wants a copy of Mary by the cross send me your address
by e-mail and i will send you one.

“If so, as pope his job is to get all of his flock in line with following the messages instead of the flock wasting time arguing over its authenticity - because he knows the time is short before the secrets begin, and once they begin, it will be too late for many in sin to be saved”

Not true. Taking a decision as to whether or not the alleged apparitions are authentic is the duty of the local Bishop and two consecutive Bishops have ruled that ahe seers are liars and that there is no evidence of even one apparition by Mary, say nothing about 4000 +

oops 40,000 +

I believe in the apparitions because I am one of the converts. I was an atheist who dragged people out of the Catholic Church until my conversion because of Medjugorje in 1993. It is a fantastically wonderful place, and I know of many, many conversions because of Medjugorje.

Regarding the interview with V. Messori: Cardinal Ratzinger once was quoted as saying that the Vatican can intervene in the discernment process of an apparition if it is not a “local” one. [God-Sent: A History of the Accredited Apparitions of Mary, Roy Varghese, p. 228] He indicated that the local bishop can be overruled if the Vatican desires to do so. It seemed as if Messori was saying that to overrule the two bishops would be very problematic, but this really wouldn’t be the case.

Question: What role do the bishops’ conferences and bishops play [in ruling on apparitions]? Is the final decision on the authenticity of an apparition from the Vatican?

Answer: It depends a little on the importance of a phenomenon. If we have only a local phenomenon it’s not necessary that the Vatican intervene. If the bishops have sufficient evidence about the situation, it’s sufficient if the bishops give guidance to the people. Only if we [have something] of universal importance do I think it’s useful that the Vatican approves and confirms [it], studies it, and after study, confirms the decision of the bishops.

For everyone here who’s comparing this to Divine Mercy, or other approved apparitions, pay attention to how those seers were directed to act. Saint Faustina was told to obey her spiritual directors NO MATTER WHAT, because they are Christ’s means of communicating with us on earth. Same with Fatima: obey the bishop no matter what, even if he’s wrong. The Medjugorje phenomenon is in a totally different category from these apparitions. What could be so important that it requires disobedience? Is there some special secret being revealed at Medjugorje that affects our salvation? Go to confession, say the rosary. We don’t need Medjugorje even if it is true.

If this is not the decision of The Commission, I will eat every single Palm Tree in Florida; uncooked, without barbecue sauce:

“Non constat de supernaturalitate , which states that the revelation has not been established as supernatural, nor has it been condemned as being false. This allows for continued private belief, but does not sanction it. “

Let the games continue…..

I am not Spartacus, it is not the local Bishops authority, as stated above.  The commission was appointed and it is their authority.  I have never been there, so I don’t know.  If you read what I said, the original Bishop did approve, and only changed after communist pressure.  The current Bishop, who has not been given the authority, doesn’t believe in any appartitions at all (ahich he is not obligated to do).  Hence, the decision is not his it is up to the commission.  I am not saying either way, I am just saying to repeat what one Bishop, who WAS NOT, given ruling authority, is not the only way to tell.  Also there have been scientific studies, where certain things cannot be explained.  People can discern until the Church makes a final decision.

The reason the Vatican should make a decision, and I suspect it will be positive, is so that the vast graces our Lord is giving us through Medjugorje will open up to the whole Church. There are many, many millions who have hardly, if at all, heard of Medjugorje. Another thought: does it really matter what each side of the debate wants or what will happen when the Vatican rules? Isn’t it more important that God’s Will be done even if it is painful for some? Medjugorje seems to be an extraordinary grace given to the world for these times; it is a terrible shame that it is being stifled by so many, which is just what satan wants. Is it right for so many to turn their backs on Our Lord’s Mother?

+++++ begin quote++++++++

Criteria for evaluating apparitions

In 1978 the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (former Holy Office) issued “Norms of the Congregation for Proceeding in Judging Alleged Apparitions and Revelations” containing the following provisions:[4]

The diocesan bishop can initiate a process on his own initiative or at the request of the faithful to investigate the facts of an alleged apparition. The bishop may refrain from looking into it if he chooses, especially if he thinks that not much will come of the event.

The national conference of bishops may intervene if the local diocesan bishop refers it to him or if the event becomes important nationally or at least in more than one diocese.

The Apostolic See (the Vatican) can also intervene at the request of the local bishop himself, at the request of a group of the faithful, or on its own initiative.

The steps in the investigation are mandated as follows: An initial evaluation of the facts of the alleged event, based on both positive and negative criteria:

Positive Criteria
moral certainty (the certainty required to act morally in a situation of doubt) or at least great probability as to the existence of a private revelation at the end of a serious investigation into the case

evaluation of the personal qualities of the person in question (mental balance, honesty, moral life, sincerity, obedience to Church authority, willingness to practice faith in the normal way, etc.)

evaluation of the content of the revelations themselves (that they do not disagree with faith and morals of the Church, freedom from theological errors)

the revelation results in healthy devotion and spiritual fruits in people’s lives (greater prayer, greater conversion of heart, works of charity that result, etc.)

Negative Criteria

glaring errors in regard to the facts

doctrinal errors attributed to God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, or to the Holy Spirit in how they appear
any pursuit of financial gain in relation to the alleged event

gravely immoral acts committed by the person or those associated with the person at the time of the event
psychological disorders or tendencies on the part of the person or persons associated

After this initial investigation, if the occurrence meets the criteria, positive and negative, an initial cautionary permission can be granted that basically states: “for the moment, there is nothing opposed to it.” This permits public participation in the devotion in regard to the alleged apparition. Ultimately, a final judgment and determination needs to be given, giving approval or condemnation of the event.

++++end of quote++++++

Two consecutive Bishops of Mostar concluded that not only was there no evidence of apparitions, there was evidence of lying by the seers.

As to why those official norms are now being officially ignored, there are all sorts of likely answers. The fact remains that at the time those two Bishops took their negative decisions, those norms were still in effect.

But, we have a Church which operationally is in dialogue with everybody.  It rarely takes an authoritative decision anymore and so it is EASY to predict the decision the Council will take. It will take the one I already posted.

Sad.

40,000 or 400 gazillion apparitions by Mary are one gazillion times of less value spiritually than one Mass but a faithless generation seeks after signs.

“Is it right for so many to turn their backs on Our Lord’s Mother?”

I’m not particularly devoted to many of the marian apparitions except Fatima, which i believe in quite strongly. But I don’t think I’m less devoted to our Lady just because I don’t follow every apparition. What would a person be missing if they decided to ignore Medjugorje? Lot’s of people ignore La Salette, and Akita, and all the rext. Why just Medjugorje?

Our hope is in Christ, not in any apparition or decision thereof. God can use anything at all including evil to bring about greater good. The risk of Medugorje or any other alleged apparition is that it could be from the evil one and the Church is very wise. Anyone who places their feelings no matter how acquired as a higher judge of authenticity than the sacerdotally appointed authorities of the Church has placed themselves in an open field near wolves. No “feelings” will protect against the deceiver of all deceivers. What amazes me is how risky so many people are content to be with their faiths. These same people would never conceive if arriving at the scene of a fire and telling the firefighters what they should or shouldn’t do, yet they have absolutely no problem opposing the considered judgement of a bishop on a matter specifically and exclusively within his “domain of expertise.”

In the end it’s just another manifestation and form of illicit rebellion for materialistic status. People are trying to “gain” an “experience” which distinguishes them from others who haven’t. It’s the purest form of spiritual pride, and the vociferous heel digging when confronted with questions of obedience to legitimate Church authority is all the proof I need to see.

Unfortunately, equating it with just another theme park experience will shower down accusations of “blasphemer” from the people who are so determined to defend it as though the Church’s wisdom amounts to blind foolishness. Consider from where Holy Mother Church’s wisdom is guaranteed and by Whom. Choose your “side” in the light of that realization.

It was my understanding that this Bishop has never questioned the seers.  So if I missed that I am sorry.  I don’t know how you call say someone is a liar if you have never questioned them.  The first Bishop as I said, approved of it and only changed his written statement after Priests were murdered and jailed.  If this Bishop has questioned the seers and my information is wrong then I apologize. 

How many times have you been to Medjugorje?  I have never been.  My friend that went had an amazing experience and an agnostic with her turned believer.  I believe my friend, but again I haven’t been there.  Maybe you know more because you have been there.  So I apologize.  I do not feel strongly one way or another.  As I recall Padre Pio’s Bishop didn’t like him much either.  And since I know Bishops in the US who seem to support homosexual marriage, I have all sort of questions.  As far as I know the seers have never been told to stop by the Bishop, and so they have not been disobedient.  But maybe I am misunderstanding.

“40,000 or 400 gazillion apparitions by Mary are one gazillion times of less value spiritually than one Mass but a faithless generation seeks after signs.”

My parish priest said in his homily a couple of weeks ago that if we were attending mass and an apparition of our lady suddenly appeared outside, we would be committing a sin if we went outside to check it out while mass was still going on. Our Lady exists in order to bring us to Christ. That’s her function. So when people imply that we NEED Medjugorje or other apparitions for our salvation, it’s close to blasphemy. This is not a slight against Mary, we just have to remember her proper role.

I just want to point out that in my last post i wasn’t accusing anyone on this thread of saying wee need apparitions for our salvation, but I’ve heard people I know personally get pretty close to that. Not just with Medjugorje, but with Fatima too.

I have been to Medjugorje several to see firsthand what things are like there.  The spiritual atmosphere there is very mature and respectful of the Eucharist.  The pilgrims I have met are quite serious about becoming better Catholics and many have had either a deepening of their Faith or have come back to the Church altogether.  There are some naysayers but my personal opinion is that the fruits in Medjugorje are great and consistent over time and so it seems theologically odd that this would come about by the work of the devil.  Some doubters, even those who have written on the topic, have never visited there which is problematic in trying to study this phenomenon.  I have never encountered something there that has given me pause or made me doubt the possibility that the Blessed Virgin Mary is truly appearing.

I visited Medjugorje about 20 years ago. I went there a perfectly self-satisfied and miserable atheist and left reconverted to the faith.  I am willing to entertain the possibility that apparitions are not true.  Such a ruling by the Church would not destroy my faith.  Like most of the thousands upon thousands who were converted or reverted at Medjugorje, I went on to other Marian shrines, such as Fatima, Lourdes, and Guadalupe and rely on the teachings of the Church for the truth, not some “seers.”  My personal opinion, based on my personal experience and the reports of many others, is that Medjugorje is unlikely to be a merely human fraud.  Too many things too miraculous and fantastic have happened to me and others.  It is either from above or from below.  If it turns out to have been from below, I will be delighted to think about how thoroughly the Blessed Mother has outsmarted the devil, turning his grand fraud into one of the greatest sources of conversion in the world.

Thank God for Our Lady of Medjugorje. Say what you may, She saved my life!!!

What will commission do? Probably they will say “we will see…”. Why? If they agree with local bishops, they will kill a highly successful business, not only for the local people (financially), but for the church (spiritually, for the visitors).

And they probably will not say “Yes” as they are aware that everything there is a falsificate and some of “seers” might decide to change the story. For this, church will probably wait until all involved are dead, and then they will somehow find a way to find a reason to approve it.

To Pat

“Why Medjugorje and not other apparitions?”

For many including myself it is the so called “messages of Peace” Medjugorje reveals a path. People call medjugorje “Mary’s school” The messages are intended to lead us closer to God and to Christ

For me I personally find medjugorje (and the messages) a sanctuary from kind of Christianity and Catholicsim that is to often defined be one’s political beliefs who follows the rules the best.  I go to Medjugorje (figuratively speaking) and I am “safe” and I find the message of Jesus Christ that i recognize in the Gospels.

Why be so concerned or worried if the ruling turns out this way or that way. It was Our Lady herself that said the Church would not have time to approve the apparitions but there will be 3 admonitions that will happen in which the visionaries will tell Fr. Petar- they will all fast for 7 days and then 3 days before each of these admonitions Fr. Petar will announce to the world was is about to happen. This is what will prove that Medjugorje is an authentic visitation from Our Lady. Sometimes I think the learned get in the way of themselves.

I am not Spartacus I am afraid you are mistaken when you say:
“Taking a decision as to whether or not the alleged apparitions are authentic is the duty of the local Bishop…” 

The Vatican can take over the investigation of an apparition if it so chooses, and it has chosen to do so in this case. The Vatican will be the final arbiter in this matter, and we all should rejoice about that. It is my understanding the local bishop has been asked by the Vatican to remain quiet while the commission continues its work.

God bless you.

7/29/11: I have been to Medjugorje. I believe it is a little bit of what heaven is like. Those things that happened to me were small miracles in and of themselves. I will never be the same, and that is a good thing. When two grown men, one a bus driver and the other a cab driver, apologize to each other , embrace and go their merry way after narrowly escaping an accident, this tells me the BVM is watching all of us. I love the place, and for anyone to tell me the things I have seen are not “of God,” are fools. The bishops involved are after their own self-centeredness and wish to be correct. That is all they are after. They do not care about the authenticity of the place. Finally, if JPII tells us the place is for real and worthy of worship, I will have a tendency to believe that holy man. If I cannot trust him, who else, besides the Lord, can I trust? Catholics are idiots if they do not believe this as the real thing. Period.

Dear Spartacus,
It appears you are under the mistaken impression that the duration of an apparition automatically disqualifies it from authenticity. You seem to be unfamiliar with the apparitions at Laus, France—declared authentic—which went on for 54 years.

Regarding your astute comment about the mass being infinitely more important than the apparitions: the alleged visionaries have said as much and also stated they would rather attend mass than see and speak with Mary so your point falls a little flat.

I wouldn’t put too much credence in Michael Davies, whose writings have been adequately refuted.

I don’t believe that Medjugorje is true, because one of the seers said in one of the messages said that all religions are equal and that it isn’t necessary to convert to the Catholic Church. Also in one of the messages, one of the seers said that Our Lady would take her out to eat and that she would pay for it. These statements proves that these apparitions aren’t Our Lady. Plus Our Lady never appeared in an apparition every day for 30 year to anyone. Also, the messages never mentioned the wearing of the brown scapular or sacramentals. They claim that they can go anywhere in the world, and Our Lady will appear to them.

Anyone who has had a true conversion is not going to lose their faith because an alleged apparition is said to be false. If all their belief is in phenomena that is not true faith.  Fatima is an approved apparition as is Our Lady of Guadalupe and I have had a devotion to Our Blessed Mother all my life but if they were to be declared, for whatever reason, not to be real, I may be disappointed, but my faith is in Jesus Christ and not in apparitions.  It seems that the implication is ’ it is best not to declare anything on Medjugorie so as not to upset the people’. That is ridiculous and frankly that is exactly the way Medjugorie believers act.

Fatima is a great example of at the time how the church and local officials dispelled the events as lies.  Only after the miracle of the sun did the evidence force the result of approval, eventually. 

Now, not even the thousands of fruits of Medjugorje nor the frequent miracles seem to have much bearing.  It is so sad to watch ones so adamant against Medjugorje - look to find reasons why they wish to believe it is not true.  I trust they will at some point seek to know where this deep seeded aggressive stance comes from.

The only thing being taught is prayer, fasting, the Eucharist, confession, and reading daily the scriptures.

People will attribute to Medjugorje whatever they want. They will derive whatever they need from their experiences and feelings. However, the Faith does not depend on our feelings nor should our wills be conformed merely to our experiences. It is all too easy for the devil to confuse folk so desperately attached to the feelings they talk themselves into believing as inspired by God. If unwilling to listen to the Church and respect the Church by deferring to the Church, there is no real holiness to be found. Mary would never ask us to go against those legitimate and faithful successors of the Apostles, nor should we presume we know better and stubborn cling to our feelings. Solid formation depends on the objective Truth Who is Christ Himself made known in and by His Church. With every legitimate apparition of Our Lady, she confirms her presence with a sure sign that has never failed to elicit support from the bishop. Think of Juan Diego and the sign given through him to Bishop Zumárraga. That tangible, undiminished, miraculous sign is ample confirmation of her visit and message.

It’s possible to have a shrine to Our Lady at Medjugorje without having to agree with the dubious “visionaries’”. If the confusion among the faithful persists, that too may be taken as a sign to reject the “visionaries” and cling to the unchanging message of the Church.

I believe Medjugorje. I love Medjugorje. I have seen the miracles of Medjugorje. I am a fruit of Medjugorje.

Please read this explanation by the former local bishop of Medj regarding the lies, deceit, disobedience, theological errors and scandal associated with this “apparition.” http://www.newjerusalem.com/bishop-truth.htm. It’s important not to let this fraud go on another 30 years because it is deceiving many people. It should be rejected based on the lies, deceit, disobedience, theological errors and scandal, not whether certain predictions come true. Predictions made by one of the children at LaSallete proved to be incorrect, yet the apparition was approved by the Church.

The devil can also be responsible for supernatural phenomena and apparitions. I’m trying to remember the details, but didn’t Padre Pio have both sorts of apparitions and had to discern which were real and which were falsified by Satan? My point is that it is possible to experience supernatural phenomena that does not original from the Lord or from Mary.

Well
I am very very skeptic about the apparitions. Those who have changed their lives good for them. I remember another Marian hoax in the 80s in Mbuye Uganda and many people changed their lives. However, it was a hoax. IF people have changed good - God has a way of getting good out of everything but this doesnt mean it is true. age81

“It appears you are under the mistaken impression that the duration of an apparition automatically disqualifies it from authenticity. You seem to be unfamiliar with the apparitions at Laus, France—declared authentic—which went on for 54 years.”

I knew that from reading The Remnant website. But, I do not recall any nuns getting knocked-up by priests promoting those apparitions or of disobedient priests etc etc
“
I wouldn’t put too much credence in Michael Davies, whose writings have been adequately refuted.”

Our Holy Father, when Mr. Davies died,  went out of his way to publicly praise his research. His studies, far from being refuted, have been the basis for numerous interventions on the part of Theologians, even Cardinals, who have taken-up the pen in order to oppose the permanent Liturgical Revolution.

Upon learning of his death, Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, wrote:

I have been profoundly touched by the news of the death of Michael Davies. I had the good fortune to meet him several times and I found him as a man of deep faith and ready to embrace suffering. Ever since the Council he put all his energy into the service of the Faith and left us important publications especially about the Sacred Liturgy. Even though he suffered from the Church in many ways in his time, he always truly remained a man of the Church. He knew that the Lord founded His Church on the rock of St Peter and that the Faith can find its fullness and maturity only in union with the successor of St Peter. Therefore we can be confident that the Lord opened wide for him the gates of heaven. We commend his soul to the Lord’s mercy.[12]

Division in the Church? Doesn’t sound like something the Blessed Mother wants. But that’s just my perspective. Never been to Medjugorje. I have no desire to go see supposed religious phenomena where the local bishops have expressed concern.

medjugorje is not about “signs”  it is about a sanctuary -  a Sanctuary away from the Catholic “umpires” who think they know all the rules.
Pray, put God in the first place in your life and seek peace in the heart.

I would like to thank Pat Archbold for posting this article. Thankfully he has moved away from his rule at Creative Minority Reporter that he will discuss everything EXCEPT medjugojre.  Like it or not Medjugorje is a BIG story.

Dear Ryan. You ruled that Medj is a sanctuary.

What need have I of the Catholic Hierarchy Divinely Constituted by Jesus Christ?

The events in Medjugorje are true!

Our Lady the Queen of Peace is indeed appearing in Medjugorje and it is Jesus the King of Kings who is sending her to this wonderful place. Without Our Lady the world would be in a much worse situation than it is today. I have been to the village over twelve times since 1988 and have appeared on National Television talking about the story. Our Lady touched my life there-I was a Professional Tennis player who had dreams of becoming number in the world -I had played such great players as John McEnroe, and Ivan Lendl,but was sidelined by an injury and lack of money. Through my experience in the village and a physical healing Our Lady gave me the courage and faith to turn to school teaching and after fifteen years of school teaching I have been very fortunate in working with thousands of amazing children at the Elementary level in Physical Education. I also work with the Catholic church in Montana in the summers working with Indian children on the Crow reservation. I know that without God, Our Lady and the kids I have taught I never would have been able to cope with the sufferings in my life. I also lost my father tragically in 1998 and through a wonderful friendship with the brother of one of the Medjugorje visionaries I was able to deal with this crisis. To those who still doubt about Our Lady of Medjugorje I would say: stop doubting and wake up because the world is in sad shape. It is a tremendous I repeat tremendous grace that Our Lady has stayed with us for so long in Medjugorje for the world. We must obey her today and live responsibly as Ivan and the others have said time and time again. We must thank God for his mercy because he has given us all so much whether we realize it or not. In the near future things will come out to show that Our Lady has indeed appeared there.

Several people talk about how Medjugorge has had positive effects on their lives, and quote the line from Matthew ‘by their fruits you shall know them’.

In context, Jesus was saying that we would know false prophets from true by the way they acted. If they were puffed up with pride or seeking to profit from their charisms, even if they healed the sick and raised the dead, they were false prophets. The messages of Medjugorge may have been given straight from the mouth of Our Lady or they may have been read somewhere and repeated by the seers. Either way, those who listen to true messages and act on them will see positive changes in their own lives. But this doesn’t resolve the source of the messages.

Here’s the passage about ‘fruits’.

“15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
  21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

The fruit of true prophecy is that the prophet does the will of God.

To I am not Spartacus

medjugorje is a sanctuary from compulsive, retentive, rule obsessed people like you.
Pope JPII asked the Catholic Faithful to “Find Jesus Through Mary.” The “Hierarchy” of the Church has spoken on this matter.

Why seek signs and wonders when you have the miracle of the Blessed Sacrament every day at Mass? That is a miracle for us, why look further?
We have everything in Christ on the altar and rushing off to Medjugorje is not the answer, and it is a shame that some will cling to it until death..

To patt

Is it a shame that 8 million Mestizo native Americans converted to the Catholic Religion inspired by Blessed Virgin Mary, Our Lady of Guadalupe and thus preserving its people while are Protestant brothers who dismiss the Virgin Mary rounded up and slaughtered the indigenous people north of the Rio Grande?  Patt, we indeed need to look further .. a lot further and Our Lady will show you the way.

Dear Ryan; If I drove a rusty green Trabant in the vicinity of that “sanctuary” and it tuned into a Silver Mercedes Benz McLaren I still would think Medj is the obvious hoax it is.

If you believe in Medj and you believe that Mary is telling you to do thus and such and you do thus and such, are you not following rules?

And there is no similarity twixt the obvious tested/approved Miracles associated with OLG - appearing in the heart of the Americas - and the hoax in a war zone where Nuns get knocked-up by priests and seers are proved to be liars.

But, you have Free Will. Knock your own self out

If you stand with Bishop Peric, don’t you wonder why the Vatican didn’t?

For those that does not believe, I will keep you all in my prayers for conversion. I honestly feel sorry for those that are skeptics and has not experience the miracles of Medjugorje.

from Bill Foley
The Medjugorje phenomenon is not in sync with the other appearances of the Mother of God. At Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, and Laus, Mary made few appearances and did not say a great deal—always in concert with the Gospel and the Catholic Church. Here, she has been babbling on for 30 years. It does seem strange.

I was wrong about Laus.

Ryan, I am disappointed at how uncharitable you are here. You resorted to name calling to ‘Not Spartacus’ and then belittled ‘Pat’ for the comment about the Holy Mass… this thread is not about Guadalupe.  Are these the “fruits” of Medjugorje? How sad.

Mel, you better check your sources, Our Lady did not say that all religions are equal. She said to have respect for all… she also said when the visionary asked her why shes so beautiful ” because I Love” get it?  GBU anyhow

Read Responses to Medjugorje Criticisms at:
http://www.medjugorjelive.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9039&sid=fd57ff2855b65f54c1f00c8e6e0f0eb2

Let me see,satan had me in his back pocket then he thought he would inspire me to go to Medjugoje to really do me in for good. So i went against incredible odds, you know what i mean if you have ever been there. Then i went from a pushover for satan and hell, to finding this most beautiful Mother who has done everything to lead me to her Son Jesus. Now i hear the devil is very crafty and very intelligence but does this make the least bit of common sense. i am a husband and father to a wife and family that has been greatly effected by what has all taken place since my trip to see Jesus’s Mother. Ever since we have been trying to live all for Jesus through Mary. P.S. i have found Joy and his name Jesus Christ Son of the Blessed Virgin.

Really, what difference does it make if Medjugorie is “real” or not for the true follower of Christ?  Our faith is or should be in Jesus Christ and his message of salvation.  If we are not close to Him already, we should be. That’s the message of Medjugorie. But for those who “believe” in Medjugorie, don’t make the place and phenomenon more important than the call to conversion.  Be careful and heed the sad example of Father (oops, I mean “Mr.”) Corapi who had many followers and whose ministry converted many, but who now is a scandal to us, and divides and mangles the body of Christ.  Deemphasize the importance of the place and visionaries, and turn again to Christ, using the place and phenomenon as a means to convert and to follow Christ. Use it as a means to an end, not an end in itself.

@Michael Cummings

I can’t thank you enough for your post (pasted below).  This argument of authenticity is extremely disturbing.  The disobedience and divisiveness surrounding this “apparition” is epidemic.  Yours is the first post I’ve seen that exemplifies balance, prudence and faith.  Thank you for this truly Catholic example of detachment, humility, obedience, and faith! Your post is truly humbling. Deo gratias!

Posted by Michael Cummings on Friday, Jul 29, 2011 12:40 PM (EDT):
I visited Medjugorje about 20 years ago. I went there a perfectly self-satisfied and miserable atheist and left reconverted to the faith.  I am willing to entertain the possibility that apparitions are not true.  Such a ruling by the Church would not destroy my faith.  Like most of the thousands upon thousands who were converted or reverted at Medjugorje, I went on to other Marian shrines, such as Fatima, Lourdes, and Guadalupe and rely on the teachings of the Church for the truth, not some “seers.”  My personal opinion, based on my personal experience and the reports of many others, is that Medjugorje is unlikely to be a merely human fraud.  Too many things too miraculous and fantastic have happened to me and others.  It is either from above or from below.  If it turns out to have been from below, I will be delighted to think about how thoroughly the Blessed Mother has outsmarted the devil, turning his grand fraud into one of the greatest sources of conversion in the world.

“some of them might even give up the ghost” ... in reference to the alleged visionaries.  That is not a respectful way to refer to people whether you believe in the authenticity of the alleged apparitions or not.  It tells me a lot about the author and how to read between the lines in his writing.  For example, it doesn’t do much for my confidence in his objectivity.  I expected more of the Register, especially since “Mother Angelica” has taken it over.

I just got back from Medugorje! At least two of the our pilgrims received healing, all experienced great peace, spiritual rest, and increased trust in God. These are very troubled times. Our Holy Mother shows up when there is trouble coming. Fatima, Akita, Rwanda are certain examples. Heaven sends Mother of the Church to encourage her children to seek God above all else: to pray, confess, fast, read the scriptures, and receive Jesus in the Eucharist. The messages from Medugorje are nothing new for practicing Catholics.
As for the bishops negative pronouncement on Medugorje…Well, we have had many fallen Bishops and priests who have fought against the Magisterium. A few years back, my local bishop was one of them. WE have seen that ordination to bishop or priest does not make them infallible.  Many of our bishops and priests have fallen. Pray to St. Michael for our protection! Bishops and priests are people who make mistakes. It is good that we have a Pope who can make final pronouncements. Respect the office of the ordained, but do not do what they say if what they say is contrary to scripture or the Magisterium in communion with the Pope.

Very sensible article. The proof will come with the events unfolding - or not. Those who froth at the mouth with condemnation should restrain their tone. Perhaps they should take heed of Gamaliel who pointed out to his fellow Jews who condemned the apostles ‘Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” (Acts 5:34-39).

I have been to Medjugorje 4 times and everytime I have seen good fruits from it.I believe that very soon you will see if this place is real or not.God Help Us!

There has been much discussion here of Bishop Peric, the former bishop of Mostar who used to speak so strongly against Medjugorje.  One of the commenters said that the Vatican only intervened after the bishop asked it to.  That’s not exactly accurate.  Several years ago, Bishop Peric was about to make an official negative ruling about Medjugorje, and the Vatican removed his authority and instead asked a national commission to make a determination about the apparitions.  It was this national commission of local bishops that later asked the Vatican to take over the investigation and possibly make a ruling.  The Vatican has called several of the alleged seers to Rome for interviews before the commission.  Whether one supports the alleged apparations or not, I fail to see how the alleged seers and devotees of Medjugorje are somehow disobeying a local bishop who has long since lost authority to rule on the apparations.  In fact, he has been uncharacteristically silent in his criticism and opposition as of late.

In addition, there is a great deal of evidence that Blessed Pope John Paul II viewed Medjugorje favorably.

By the way, I have never been to Medjugore, but I know many laymen and priests who have.  In fact, our associate pastor is making a return trip there soon.  And years before he was ordained, a former associate pastor of ours returned to the sacraments and received his vocation there.

The “visionaries” admitted years ago that they went up the hill to hide out and smoke, against their parents’ orders, and when they were caught, they claimed that they had a vision of the Blessed Mother.

Supposedly, Mary prophesied that Ivan would become a priest, but she must have been mistake, as Ivan married a beauty queen from Massachusetts.

Disobedience and “mistakes” made by the Blessed Mother are the foundation of this phony apparition.

Why did it only take 6 apparitions of Mary to the children at Fatima to literally change the world? Now we’re going on 40,000????

I suggest that all the Medjugorje adherents read E. Michael Jones’ book “The Medjugorje Deception” and read factual documentation of the prophesies that never came true, and the lies the “visionaries” were caught in throughout the years.          One major red flag: The “children” stated that the “Blessed Mother” encouraged disobedience to the bishop!  BINGO! FALSE APPARITION!  Also, I was present in my local parish when Ivan had Mary “appear” after he was finished with his talk.  He knelt down & prayed with “Mary” during the “vision”, then told the audience that the two of them were praying the Our Father together.            Interesting, since those who investigated the Lourdes apparitions knew Bernadette was truthful, because she said that the only prayer Mary said during the Rosary was the “Gloria Be”. Mary would NEVER pray the Our Father, a sinner’s prayer, and Bernadette was too innocent and uneducated to make that up!

@Linda Ill You posted the following:

“The “visionaries” admitted years ago that they went up the hill to hide out and smoke, against their parents’ orders, and when they were caught, they claimed that they had a vision of the Blessed Mother”.
That is factually INCORRECT.
Read Responses to Medjugorje Criticisms at:
http://www.medjugorjelive.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9039&sid=fd57ff2855b65f54c1f00c8e6e0f0eb2

Mel, where did you get that baloney?  I refer to “one of the seers said in one of the messages said that all religions are equal and that it isn’t necessary to convert to the Catholic Church.”    What she actually said was “all PEOPLE are equal before God; certainly all RELIGIONS are not equal.”  In other words, a sincere Muslim is the equal before God of a sincere Catholic, because they are both children of God, created by Him.  That does not make the Muslim’s religion the equal of Catholicism, for goodness sake!  And just for the record, the reason she has given for the apparitions is to call people to prayer, sacrifice and repentance.  Certainly a Holy Mass SHOULD do that, but if it doesn’t, something else is necessary, because more prayer, sacrifice, and repentance are needed to bring people back to the truth so they won’t go to hell when they die (as many probably will before the apparitions end or are pronounced true or false by the Church.)  Shouldn’t people who say, “Well, there’s nothing wrong with waiting for the pronouncement of the Church, I don’t have to do anything until that happens”  at least consider doing what the messages request anyway?  It doesn’t HURT anyone to pray, sacrifice, and go to Mass more—and it might HELP someone!

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/medjugorje-revealed/#ixzz1TXb5k7OY

YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MEDJUGORJE HAS CONFIRMED MORE CONVERSIONS THAN ANY APPARITION IN MODERN TIMES. 

MOTHER MARY IS THERE AND HAS TOUCHED MANY, MANY SOULS TO CONVERSION.

THERE IS NO DOUBT! HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE…

I visited Medj twice.  The first time I experinced supernatural phenomena but did not the second. The Bishops in Mostar clain there is nothing supernatural happening but I know what I saw and experienced. After many years as a cafeteria Catholic I had a conversion in part because of Medj and realized that the Church teaches the truth and that I needed to be faithful. The Blessed Mother guided me to become a faithful practicing Catholic. That was over 15 years ago. I have been a professed Lay Carmelite for over 10 years, going to Mass daily and living a life of quiet prayer.  My conversion affected other members of my family. No one could convince me that nothing supernatural is going on there…I would be lying. If this isn’t coming from God then the evil one is shooting himself in the foot because of all the conversions.

I have been to Medjugorje three times.  Each time it was a bit of heaven to be there.  If for some strange reason the Vatican rules against it - that is fine.  My faith is not based on Medjugorje no matter what a wonderful experience it was.  I believe the Shroud of Turin is true too but the fact that it is not an accepted artifact doesn’t affect my faith. Those of us who have had the wonderful opportunity to go to Medjugorje have increased our awareness of God’s presence in our lives - that won’t change. The blessed Mother does in Medjugorje what she does everywhere - draws us closer to her son and that stays with us.

The Vatican did send out an offical statement in 1998 stating that there has been “no supernatural events” in Medjugori. That priests could not lead a pilgrimage there because it would give the fauls impression that it is approved by the church.  This can be found on EWTN’s web site.  Someone once commented how many conversion because of Medjugori.  The exorcist said, the Devil loves disobediance to the church no matter what the out come.

See unitypublishing.com

It makes me mad sometime how when we believe something like the miricles going on in Medjugori the catholic church has to be so critical of the things we believe. To me the church only wants us to believe what they tell us is true and what to believe.  When I went to catholic school Never did we study the bible cause that was only a book you left on the coffeetable to look like the good catholic when someone came over. I attended a Baptist bible study with my friend and learned more there in 6 weeks than I did 12 years in a catholic school.  I believe in Medjogori regardless what the Vatican says and I dont like the catholic church anymore.  They think just cause they have the mass and rosary they one foot in the door. Get real fellas why is it so hard to believe in miracles? You tell us to believe and when we finally do you have to treat the situation like we are crazy for believing. I believe Mary is warning the people of this world to shape up. Believe and dont doubt.

@sue You state “The Vatican did send out an offical statement in 1998 stating that there has been “no supernatural events”  “
Please produce evidence for this statement with relevant links.
The Vatican has NEVER used the expression NO SUPERNATURAL EVENTS are occurring there. It has kept an open mind. Why do you think that it is investigating Medjugorje now? Up to now it has been unable to reach a definite conclusion.
Incidentally the apparitions of Our Lady of Laus in France took place between 1664 and 1718. Note the length of the apparition period just like Medjugorje. The apparitions were only fully approved by the Vatican on May 5th, 2008.

prayer and fasting can stop war, suspend natural law.  OLQP, messages.

No one believed Bernadette either

no one believed St. Bernadette either.

Listen folks. It all really simple. There is so much talk here about the Church, with no one actually stating the reality of this situation. The fact is, yes 2 Bishops did not agree with Medjugorje. Rome turned the local ordinary’s authority over to the Yugoslav Bishop’s Conference, who ruled that as of now there was not clear evidence of something supernatural taking place. Then another statement more recently that stated that Medjugorje is a place of prayer. Now the Holy See has appointed a commission, who has the authority to judge this. I’m sorry, but those that continue to maintain that the local Bishops still have jurisdiction in this matter are not only mistaken, but blatantly against the authority of the Church who has given the authority to the new commission. Peter has spoken, and has appointed a commission. Don’t continue to maintain that the local Bishop has jurisdiction to judge the apparitions when the Holy See has ruled otherwise. And quit quoting Canon Law about the Local Bishop’s authority. His authority is under the primacy of Peter, who has now given that authority to judge these apparitions to the new commission. If you believe in the Catholic Church then act like it.

Dear Pat,

If you haven’t read any of the critical books on Medjugorje, you owe it to yourself to get the history of the case. There are mattera which promotional books aren’t going to tell you: about doctrinal errors in “messages”, about the local Franciscan rebellion which used the “apparition” as a tool against the diocese, about outright lies told by the visionaries.  Matters of doctrinal truth and matters of obedience to lawful authority are central criteria in evaluating apparition claims.  With bad fruits on those points, no amount of good experiences are enough to win approval from the Church.

I’d recommend the brand-new “Medjugorje revisited” by Donal Foley, which is well documented and clearly explores the issues.

I think the only disappointed ones will be those who hate Medjugorje, for whatever reason. It will gall such people if Medjugorje is approved. Hatred and pride are a nasty combination. It’s a relatively easy thing, however, for a Medjugorje believer to simply take the good from the experience but remain in line with the Vatican. Speaking from my own point of view anyway.

I went to Medjugorje in 1995..  A year before I read a book ‘Medjugorje - The Message by Wayne Weible. In it he recalls taking a pictures of the cross on Mt. Krizevac. When he developed the film there was no cross in any of his pictures. 

I had forgotten this and when I came home with my pictures of Medjugorje (I had taken a few myself of the cross from a distance on Mt. K) and showing them to family and friends telling them that I didn’t particularly receive anything supernaturally but, was satisfied with my experience none the less.  It took two weeks when I remembered what Mr. Weible said about his pictures of the cross.  I pulled out my pictures (I had taken 4 with the cross in them from a distance) none had the cross in them.  There is NO reason for the cross not to be seen.  I see tree branches why not the cross?

I too wonder about the length of time and frequency of these messages. Can’t get the fact that the cross is not in any of my pictures either.  I’m not a die hard follower of Medjugorje either. 

Just don’t know.

@Richard C Donal Foley is wrong concerning Medjugorje:
Visit:http://ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1366&Itemid=125
This has the following article: Understanding Medjugorje: A Reply to Donal Anthony Foley by Daniel Klimek

I personally have nothing at stake in regard to the validity of the apparitions, but there is something that has me confused about the discussions of it.  I Am Not Spartacus can safely be categorized as a non-believer in these apparitions.  He, like many I have read, take the reasonable position that the local bishop denies the authenticity of the visions.  It would seem that that would settle the matter, and I certainly believe that one could follow that line of thinking and be perfectly safe with it.  But… Not-Spartacus, don’t you contradict yourself when you quote the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith?  Doesn’t the document you quote actually indicate that the bishop does not always have the final say?  Why have a Vatican commission if the bishop has already spoken?  And why would anyone ask the Vatican to investigate unless there were some question on the accuracy or validity of the local bishop’s opinion?  It seems to me that a person who accepts the bishop’s opinion is fine, but that the Vatican investigation by its nature is indicating that the Vatican wants to make its own statement on the matter.  Logically, doesn’t that indicate that the official final word on Medjugorje has not been given?  My head could be left spinning reading the opinions on one side or the other in this matter, but I don’t think that it is correct to say that a final answer has been given by the Church.  If it has, then it seems that the Vatican commission itself is in disobedience for continuing to question the matter.

Truly mystifing is that these “kids” at one time,  now adults, and after hearing these “secrets”,  never went into religious vocations. A pity- one would think you’d want to be closer to heaven by living that kind of life, not living like the wealthy do. It sounds like the biggest con job satan is perpetrating on humanity before his time is over.

CWNews.com Report
Medjugorje apparition claims are divisive, bishop warns
Jul. 04, 2006 (CWNews.com) - The Catholic bishop whose diocese includes the town of Medjugorje has warned that “something similar to a schism” has arisen at the parish church where apparitions of the Virgin Mary are alleged to take place.
In a homily delivered in Medjugorje on the feast of Corpus Christi, Bishop Ratko Peri? of Mostar-Duvno, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, said that both he and his predecessor have expressed severe misgivings about the reported apparitions. He added that both Pope John Paul II (bio - news) and Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) backed the judgments of the local bishops.
In his homily Bishop Peri? explained that—“while recognizing the Holy Father’s right to give a final decision” on the validity of the reported apparitions—he doubted their validity. He recalled that when he discussed the reports from Medjugorje with Vatican officials, including then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, they shared his incredulity.
“They particularly do not seem to be authentic,” the bishop observed, “when it is known before that these so-called ‘apparitions’ will occur.” Bishop Peri? cited the schedule that the Medjugorje seers have provided, listing the times and places at which they claim the next visits by the Mother of God will occur. Thousands of messages from Mary are now claimed, and the bishop observed that “the flood of so-called apparitions, messages, secrets, and signs do not strengthen the faith, but rather further convince us that in all of this there is nothing neither authentic nor established as truthful.”
The first reported appearances of the Virgin at Medjugorje occurred just over 25 years ago. During the 1980s, thousands of Catholic flocked to the little town, with many reporting profound spiritual experiences. These pilgrimages were eventually slowed by the violent bloodshed that tore through the region in the 1990s and by the increasingly public skepticism of the hierarchy.
Bishop Peri? reminded his people of the restrictions that he has imposed on activities in Medjugorje. The parish church is not formally a “shrine,” he said, and should not be characterized as such. Pilgrimages to the church are discouraged. Priests there are “not authorized to express their private views contrary to the official position of the Church on the so-called ‘apparitions’ and ‘messages,’ during celebrations of the sacraments, nor during other common acts of piety, nor in the Catholic media.”
The bishops urged the “seers” of Medjugorje to “demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish.”
Some of the Franciscan priests assigned to the Medjugorje parish, he said, have been expelled from their order because of their refusal to accept Church authority. “They have not only been illegally active in these parishes, but they have also administered the sacraments profanely, while others invalidly,” he said. As Bishop of Mostar-Duvno, he said, he felt obliged to warn the faithful “who invalidly confess their sins to these priests and participate in sacrilegious liturgies.” From Catholic World News July 2006 (http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=45105).
(Bishop Ratko Peri?‘s homily: http://www.cbismo.hr/DHTMLFiles/Opsirnije.asp?P=25)

We live in a world with no prayer and if people are returning from Medjugorje and going back to Mass and Praying the Rosary that is all good. Jesus said to look at the Fruits it produces…To me they are All Good…

Posted by aprolifer on Friday, Jul 29, 2011 7:56 PM (EDT):

Aprolifer: where is this proof you state?

You state: “Mel, where did you get that baloney?  I refer to “one of the seers said in one of the messages said that all religions are equal and that it isn’t necessary to convert to the Catholic Church.”  What she actually said was “all PEOPLE are equal before God; certainly all RELIGIONS are not equal.”  In other words, a sincere Muslim is the equal before God of a sincere Catholic, because they are both children of God, created by Him.  That does not make the Muslim’s religion the equal of Catholicism, for goodness sake!

http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2011/05/eucharistic-miracle-at-medjugorje.html

The following is account of an alleged “Eucharistic Miracle” at Medjurgorje. This story appeared in the May-June 1993 Caritas newsletter, the official organ of the Medjugorje group out of Birmingham, Alabama (the place where one of the seers obligingly had an apparition on some property owned by Terry Colafrancesco, who subsequently made a ton of money, but that’s another story).

A certain Protestant woman a Caritas group from Birmingham on a pilgrimage to Medjugorje (Pilgrimages to Medjugorje have, of course, been forbidden by the Bishop, the lawful authority in the diocese, and so every organized pilgrimage there constitutes an act of disobedience to lawful authority). At any rate, when it came time for Mass, this Protestant lady was irritated that she could not receive Holy Communion. Since she was not in danger of death and had made no profession of belief in the Real Presence (the extraordinary conditions under which a non-Catholics is permitted to receive Holy Communion), there was absolutely no justification for her to receive Communion.

But, it would appear, Our Lady was more concerned at the displeasure of the Protestant than with adherence to the canon law of the Church, and so she arranged for the lady to receive Communion in circumstances which Mr. Colafrancesco describes as a “Eucharistic miracle.” Here’s what happened next, as reported in the Caritas newsletter:

“When distribution for Communion came, the first priest off the altar came toward the group leader. He and the others around him expected to be given the Eucharist, but instead the priest walked through the crowd which opened up. The leader, as well as the group, watched stunned as everyone was passed by while the priest walked directly to the spot where the woman was sitting in the pew. He held up the Eucharist for her to receive. The leader and the group and she herself stared in disbelief at what they were seeing. Though it was but a moment, it seemed the hesitation lasted for minutes. While she sat there and Jesus in the Eucharist was held up before her, she hesitated at first, not being sure, then willfully received Him. Everyone around her who was not weeping were fighting back their tears because all knew the priest could not have seen her until he was before her, much less known that she was not a Catholic. Only a few months later, the pilgrim who did not want to become a Catholic, received the Holy Eucharist a second time as a new Catholic.”

Well, that’s very touching that the woman became Catholic in the end. Too bad her journey to the Church began with a formal act of disobedience to the Church’s law, which states plainly that it is the Magisterium, not a priest acting under the influence of some alleged apparition, that determines under what conditions sacraments may be received:
“Since the sacraments are the same for the whole Church and belong to the divine deposit, it is only for the supreme authority of the Church to approve or define the requirements for their validity; it is for the same or another competent authority according to the norm of canons 838 §§3 and 4 to decide what pertains to their licit celebration, administration, and reception and to the order to be observed in their celebration” (Can. 841).

And what has the competent authority stated in this matter? Canon 844 §1: “Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone.” The reception of Communion by this Protestant woman clearly violates these canons, as well as Canon 913§1 which requires “sufficient knowledge and careful preparation” before reception of Communion. I suppose “Our Lady” trumps Canon Law.

Can anybody really believe that a legitimate apparition of Our Lady would lead to activity like this? Priests distributing Holy Communion outside of canonical norms to non-Catholics? This is even more serious because it is being out forward as a “miracle”, that is, as something willed and effected by the direct power of God; in other words, God and Our Lady willed for this priest to disobey the Church’s guidelines by leading him to give Holy Communion to this non-Catholic.

Is this the good fruits I keep hearing about?

“...I have met and continue to meet so many people who have changed and for whom Medjugorje is the center of their experience of faith: What would you say to them? It is an illusion, you have been the victim of a hoax? It would be a scandal because of the grandeur of the phenomenon of the last thirty years…”.

And this my friends is the problem with Medjugorje. People who go there chasing “signs”, “miracles”, and “messages”. I went there three years ago and am glad I did because it woke me up to the fact that Medjugorje is a deception. As our group’s spiritual advisor/priest told on the last day’s Mass: “You people come here looking for miracles but don’t realize that the greatest miracle of all time (the Eucharist) is right before you.” Very well said!

I think the Vatican got involved as there is some question as to whether the local ordinary has been biased on these events. It is suspected that there has been an ongoing conflict between the Franciscans and the diocesans including possibly the bishops. It is known that good discernments can best be made when persons are opened to God and free of biases. Therefore Review of the bishop’s negative judgment is necessary.  I think the best outcome would be a review of what has happened at Medjugorge so far, while withholding any definitive judgment pending the conclusion of these events.

One of the first “messages” from the Blessed Virgin Mary at Medjugorje came after the children asked Her “Why have you come?”  Our Lady answered “Praise be Jesus, I have come to tell the world that God exists”

The world is drowning in a sea of sin. In the US we have so called Catholic politicians supporting abortion (the destruction of innocent unborn children). We have people who claim to be Catholic voting for pro-abortion politicians. This is replicated throughout the world. Why should it be surprising to have the Mother of God appearing regularly in Medjugorje? Every sort of immorality is being legalised. Humanity has turned its back on God. How long more before a chastisement from God?
We have God and his Blessed Mother being regularly blasphemed. Western society is sick. We all need to wake up before it is too late. Mankind cannot continue to turn its back on God without suffering the consequences. Medjugorje is a warning. Politicians come and go but the truth is always the truth. The Law of God never changes.

You dont need to go to Medjugorje, Lourdes, Fatima or anywhere else for an encounter with Mary.  Mary is right there at Jesus’s side at every Eucharist you attend.  I have been to Medjugorje several times - I dont go there expecting signs or miracles - I go there for prayer, peace and companionship with like minded catcholics.  I believe the visions are authentic otherwise the visionaries are very good actors to have kept the fraud going for 30 years!

The good actor is Satan playing Our Lady.

http://hospitallers.blogspot.com/2009/09/medjugorje-divine-intervention-or.html

Mr. Coulombe has a good audio piece on how to discern apparitions:

http://www.tumblarhouse.com/audio/files/False Apparitions.mp3

tom bordeau, are you not aware of what happened to the requests Our Lady made of St. Catherine Laboure of the Miraculous Medal apparitions?  She (St. Catherine) was a religious under obedience, and her superiors refused to allow several requests of Our Lady to be answered.  Can you imagine any religious community allowing one of its members time off for daily apparitions of the Blessed Virgin?  To be free to welcome apparitions, they have to remain laypeople.  Of course if you don’t believe in the apparitions, then you think all these young people are liars, and why would liars want to join religious communities?

When I first heard about Medjugorie I was very curious about the messages and the children chosen to tell the world about them. I read many books about it and I remember Wayne Weibel’s book telling a story about a pilot who during the war in Bosnia had flow over the church at St James carrying his weapons meant to destroy the church yet as he was piloting his plane a cloud appeared and fog disorienting him that the church wasn’t hit. At the precise moment it was saved. Because God protects His Own, not Satan. Satan destroys. There’s a website to check out, thewarningsecondcoming.com. Please tell as many people to look it up and be prepared. Medjugorie was God’s Grace to mankind, there have been too many miracles that have taken place for it to be a hoax. The Bible says, “The devil only comes to kill, steal and destroy, but I’ve come that you may have Life Everlasting “. Pray for The Pope that God will guide him to lead His Sheep.“My Sheep Know My Voice”, who’s voice are you listening to?

Tom Bordeau, in answer to your earlier question, I shouldn’t have used quote marks for the second quotation in my comment without looking it up, sorry about that.  The answer I gave to Mel came from a message Our Lady [allegedly] gave in 1984 or 1985 (I don’t have exact date), in response to a Catholic priest who didn’t understand why she had obtained the cure of an Orthodox child (this IS an exact quote):  “Tell this priest, tell everyone, that it is you who are divided on earth.  The Muslims and the Orthodox, for the same reason as Catholics, are equal before my Son and me.  You are all my children.  Certainly, all religions are not equal, but all men are equal before God, as St. Paul says.”

Liars maybe, maybe not. The devil can fool anyone. I’m just saying if one was visited by heaven, one would act accordingly , unlike these “seers”.
So nowadays, it is better to remain a layman with more luxuries instead of making a religious vocation to be closer to Our Lord with a life of penance, prayer and sacrifice? My, how things have changed.

It is important to have a decision from the Vatican because Our Lady is asking us to DO SOMETHING. A simple investigation into Her messages tells us that events are about to take place in the world. She says that by the time the first secret is revealed, conversion will be too late for some people. 

If for no other reason; out of sheer obedience to your Mother!

What an advocate for the evil one. Dear Mel doesn’t realize when you speak about Our Blessed Mother in the wrong way, it reflects on Jesus her son, the Holy Spirit, and Our Father in Heaven. Mel has to get rid of his ego and his pride and look for some Spiritual Soul searching. It is easy for him to be in self denial, for now he has the Heavenly Realm to bash. If he was to research the 2 Bishops he would of seen that their families had close ties with the Communist and Atheistic rulers of that time. The reason they disapproved is because they were coerced by Family and politcians that made rules and they knew they would lose their worldly possecions and Power. For the ones that KNOW Medjugorje is real, God Bless You, foe those that don’t believe, God have Mercy on your souls.

I have always followed Fatima since I was a little girl. Ever since I saw the movie The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima.  When I heard about Medjugorje I thought “wouldn’t it be cool to go somewhere where the Blessed Virgin is appearing”.  I started living the messages by going to confession.  I hadn’t gone in probably 15 years.  Then added the daily rosary and then adding daily mass.  I was also giving my most to the point of crying out to God that I was exhausted and had nothing more to give. I was awake in bed one night and was lifted up and felt an immense peace and joy and saw a cloaked figure in my bedroom window. The cloak was also over their head, a silhouette waving their hand for me to come toward them. Bright light was coming from behind.  White light.  I thought this must be what heaven is like. I took it as someone telling me that I was on the right track.  Months later I heard my name being called in the middle of the night.  It woke me up.  It was not interior but exterior into my left ear.  I thought it was one of the children calling me but everyone was asleep and it didn’t sound like the children.  Just “Diana” softly.  My children would have said mom.  Months passed I’m doing the dishes and thinking about going to Medjugore and that it would be nice to fly out of St Louis because it would be cheaper.  Just then I get a call from a friend who’s uncle is taking a group from St Louis to Medjugorje and she thought that I might be interested.  I booked the trip with the last money in my checking account not knowing how I would pay the rest.  Shortly after we received a seed corn rebate and a return on some taxes.  It was for the exact amount plus $100 spending money.  I had already been living the messages of going to daily mass and monthly confession but wasn’t doing the fasting.  So I thought I better start doing the fasting if I really believed the Blessed Mother was there.  So in March I started to fast. I was pretty nervous but the minute I got on the road to St Louis I was totally at peace the entire trip. Everything just flowed the whole time.  Everyday just got better and better. It was such a peaceful time.  No confusion.  Clear head. Totally uplifted. Going to where I needed to go without really knowing exactly where I was going. You just ended up in the right spot.  Paths crossed with people at just the right moment. I never tired climbing the mountain and although it was June I never got sunburned or tanned for that matter, even though we were outside most of the time.  I had a sun allergy which went away after Medjugorje.  There was a man at the airport on the way back that was fair skinned and a red head and I approached him and said to him “you never got sunburned”.  He had only noticed it when I mentioned it and was also surprised to find out the summer sun didn’t burn him.  Each day got better and better and each day God did something very special and personal that showed me how much He truely loves me and I came away with a true love for everyone, wanting everyone to be saved.  I thought, this would be what my home town in Iowa would feel like if everyone practiced exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. So many people, together living their faith to the fullest, receiving the sacraments.  I still long for everyone to do just that.  So if the Blessed Mother isn’t appearing there to the visionaries I’ll go with the fact that Jesus and Mary where there with me in Medjugorje and have been thoughout my whole life. As to why the messages would be going on for so long?  I suppose it is because people are still converting. As to why the church is investigating now?  If the apparitions are authentic then even more people will be converting.  The messages are simple.  Live what the Catholic Church teaches. 
Diana Bartlett

@David Storch

Your comment is somewhat comical. Catholics know that belief in private revelation is not required for eternal salvation.  Why are you damning those who reject Medjugorje?  Are you intentionally being misleading?  Who whispers this lie in your ear?  Did the ‘Gospa’ teach you this?

Here is what the Church and catechism actually teaches regarding private revelation:

67
Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations.”

Tom, I’m a lay person.  Are you saying I’m therefore incapable of living “a life of penance, prayer and sacrifice?”  Yes, times have changed.  Our Lady comes to Medjugorje precisely to call us lay people to that kind of life.  The idea that only priests and religious can or should live a life of penance, prayer and sacrifice belongs to the Church of the past when mistaken ideas like that were accepted without thinking.  If you’d ever been a truly Catholic parent of several small children you would understand that the sanctified (and sacrificial) life is not just the property of vowed religious.

I think there is a lot of hot air being blown around here. It seems from reading these comments that one would be enlightened about something. What I see, and unfortunately what most others will see is that the believers in Medjugorje seem to speak from their experience with the place, and a changed life. The detractors to Medjugorje seem to speak from a lofty “we know better than you” position. I’m sorry, but Peter was given the keys, not anyone on this blog. Peter has spoken that they are yet to be declared supernatural and are to be studied further by the new commission. Regardless of what the local Bishop says about the matter, Peter has said that the commission has jurisdiction in this area. Hence, if people here are saying that no one can claim supernatural, then no one here has the authority to declare them not from God either. I think we are safe in Peter’s boat that the apparitions are to be studied further. So far nothing in the messages has gone against Church teaching otherwise it would have been condemned by now, and if the secrets happen, that will be our physical proof. Medjugorje has been declared a place of prayer. Let us keep that spirit wile thrashing back and forth here. In the words of Saint Augustine, “In decided things, obedience. In undecided things, freedom. And in all thing charity.”

The word converting means to return to God.
Diana Bartlett

aprolifer,

You know darn well what I meant, unless you’re one of the seers.

Regis Lamar,
I am sorry to tell you but you seem to have forgotten that the Bishop and Ordinary of the place ,this time Medjugorje, is also included in Peter’s boat.  The Bishop of Rome, ie Peter’s successor, works in unity with the other bishops, ie the Apostles’ successors.

Peter does not sit alone.  Peter works in unity with the Apostles in matters of faith and morals.  The Bishops are the successors of the Apostles. 

In this newly, and at every comission regarding Medjugorie,
the Bishop of Mostar’s findings are always included and taken into consideration. If that would not be true then why would there be
a commission today? I think it is because the matter has to be settled between what the Bishop and the other commissions have declared, and what the populus is saying. 

Also, it is not the people who are saying that noone can claim the apparition to be of supernatural origins, it is the Church who said it.
Read the Zadar declaration and other church documents found all over the internet but it would be better to go the main website of the Archdiosece of Mostar.  I believe it is Cbismo dot something.
Peace,
Maria

Regis Lamar,
To be more precise on who gave the ordinance regarding pilgrimages
to Medjugorje as if they were going to a place where a supernatural event was happening it was Cardinal Kubric on a press release in 1987 and later posted in L’Osservatore Romano.

“...for that reason, it is not permitted to organize either pilgrimages or religious manifestations based on an alleged supernatural character attributed to Medjugorje events.”

peace,
Maria

Maria,

You bring up a good point.  In his Encyclical Letter, Ecclesia de Eucharistia (Chapter 4, para 39), Blessed Pope John Paul II said:

The ecclesial communion of the Eucharistic assembly is a communion with its own Bishop and with the Roman Pontiff. The Bishop, in effect, is the visible principle and the foundation of unity within his particular Church.80 It would therefore be a great contradiction if the sacrament par excellence of the Church’s unity were celebrated without true communion with the Bishop. As Saint Ignatius of Antioch wrote: “That Eucharist which is celebrated under the Bishop, or under one to whom the Bishop has given this charge, may be considered certain”.81

1) the priest removed from his vows was not the first nor the only Franciscan who helped the children (the main one was Father Jozo). This is disinformation.
2) the bishop opposed it because of an unrelated problem he is having with the Franciscans, that has it’s roots in the Franciscans being in charge when Bosnia was part of the Ottoman empire.
3)The bishop, during the Yugoslavia civil war, when Mostar was being bombed and 100 thousand had been killed, was asked what was the major pastoral problem in their country, and he answere Medjugorje.
4) The Michael Brown quote was out of context.
5)Michael Jones’ book cherry picks and distorts matters: and one could write a similar book on the problems of other approved apparitions such as LaSalette or even Fatima, where schismatics are using the messages to condemn the pope.

Testing The Spirit - The Criteria of Discernment

unitypub@unitypublishing.com

WHY FALSE

In 1882, Christ revealed to the stigmatist, Marie Julie Jahenny of La Fraudais, France that:

“During the time of the approach of the punishments announced at La Salette, an unlimited amount of FALSE REVELATIONS will arise from hell like a swarm of flies; a last attempt of Satan to choke and destroy the belief in the TRUE REVELATIONS by false ones.”

A perpetual argument employed by souls snared by false apparitions, mystics or cults, goes something like, “It cannot be false because of the fruits. People are praying more and sinning less, and even giving up drugs, alcohol and cigarettes. There are many miracles and everything feels so good and holy, what would Satan gain by making people pray more, sin less?”

Christ’s words to Marie Julie Jahenny reveal the primary reason for false apparitions, often described as “salt from Heaven” [true] and “sugar from Hell” [false]. Whenever Heaven delivers a true message to the world, e.g. Lourdes, Satan attempts to drown God’s salt in the sugar of demonic apparitions. In Lourdes there were over 50 purported apparitions of the Virgin Mary to children other than Saint Bernadette. All of these visitations proved to be Satanic, though in every case these children actually saw a form they thought to be God’s Mother. Though demonically inspired their ecstasy was not interrupted when pins were stuck in them, light was passed over their eyes, etc. Had Satan’s scheme succeeded, all these apparitions - including Saint Bernadette’s - would have been condemned by the Church. Perhaps, we might never have intimately met the “Immaculate Conception”. Thank God, the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, did not mix sugar and salt, nor expel the good with the bad.

Without a doubt, every demonic apparition is intrinsically evil and harmful. And yet, while God permits them as tests of discernment, faith and obedience, they may also provide evidence of the invisible world’s reality to unbelievers. Their danger emerges when the mystically untrained and undiscerning - most all of mankind - embrace such lies over the Spirit-guided counsel of the Church (1 Timothy 3:15). Often the deceived become stronger in the faith, when they recognize how easily fallen angels can fool men, and learn to follow our Shepherd on earth safely home to the Father. Mysteriously, falling prey to the guiles of a false apparition, many souls have been given the grace of awakening, i.e. realizing that no one can disobey the Church and serve GOD, man lacks the wit to overpower and outsmart Satan’s hordes on his own, and no apparition true or false can provide a soul more Grace and Wisdom than the Precious Blood of Christ received in the Most Holy Eucharist. Anchored in Christ’s Blood no one will wander into curious realms of deceit. Content with “He Who can neither deceive nor be deceived” we shall truly become one. There is no greater truth than the Blood of Christ. God-loving souls need nothing but GOD.

GOD’s revelations strengthen humility, obedience, patience and conformity to His Holy Will. The Devil’s revelations beget pride, presumption and disobedience to GOD’s Church on earth. A sure sign of a demonically-inspired seer is their seeking self-profit, glory and power over GOD’s.

Piety, prayer and good works are not lone criteria for authenticating heavenly revelations. Satan will tolerate good to ultimately sew evil. A sign of true love for GOD is bearing long-lasting fruits and living orthodox, obedient lives respectful to all, especially those in authority.

From The Imitation of Christ (Book 3, Pg 160):

“You so easily follow the suggestions of your enemy, the devil, who does not care whether his deceits are true or false…”

Today, when someone announces the Virgin Mary is appearing standing on a rock, many uncautious souls imprudently run to venerate the rock. While their piety, prayer, virtue, etc. may seem to evidence fruits, these - in and of themselves - do not prove the vision of divine origin. In fact, till the Holy Catholic Church proves otherwise, vision-chasers may actually - and more often than not - be bowing down to a demon. What is the effect of unwitting prayers to Satan? Just look at the holocaust that followed the condemned apparitions in Medjugorje. “WAR is a punishment for sin.” - Our Lady of Fatima, 1917.

CAN YOU PUBLISH AN UN-APPROVED APPARITION

Publishers often post the following disclaimer inside their books.

“Since the abolition of Canon 1399 and 2318 of the former Canonical Code by Pope Paul VI in AAS 58 (1966), publications about new appearances, revelations, prophecies, miracles, etc., have been allowed to be distributed and read by the faithful without the express permission of the Church, providing that they contain nothing which contravenes faith or morals. This means no imprimatur is necessary.”

While a book may not require an Imprimatur it is not true (nor never has been) that books on unapproved apparitions may be distributed. On October 23, 1995, the Vatican reaffirmed in the official journal of the Holy See, the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, that circulation of books on unapproved apparitions are forbidden. Therein, the Church wrote:

“The Interpretation given by some individuals to a Decision approved by Paul VI on 14 October 1966 and promulgated on 15 November of that year, in virtue of which writings and messages resulting from alleged revelations could be freely circulated in the Church, is absolutely groundless. This decision actually referred to the “abolition of the Index of Forbidden Books” and determined that—after the relevant censures were lifted—the moral obligation still remained of not circulating or reading those writings which endanger faith and morals.

It should be recalled however that with regard to the circulation of texts of alleged private revelations, canon 623 #1 of the current Code remains in force: `The Pastors of the Church have the right to demand that writings to be published by the Christian faithful, which touch upon faith or morals, be submitted to their judgment’.

Alleged supernatural revelations and writings concerning them are submitted in first instance to the judgment of the diocesan Bishop, and , in particular cases, to the judgment of the Episcopal Conference and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.”

The following is paraphrased from Catholic Replies by James J. Drummey (The Wanderer: July 30, 1998).

The writings of the Popes are published in a variety of forms: Apostolic Letters, Briefs, Bulls, Constitutions, Decrees, Decretals, Encyclicals, etc. They acquire their force by publication in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, the official journal of the Apostolic See. Since these writings are the official pronouncements of the Magisterium or teaching office of the Church, Catholics are not free to disregard them. In the case of the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, the Second Vatican Council stated, a “religious submission of will and of mind must be shown in a special way to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking Ex Cathedra [i.e., infallibly]”.

Now, these Catholic bookstores, Marian Centers, and publishers are violating the law of the Church, per the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, by promoting books and tapes in favor of Medjugorje, and refusing to have any opposing point of view in their stores.

To make an even greater sin, they even refuse to have approved private revelation of Our Lady in their stores with the proper Imprimatur, as in the case of The Miracle of Damascus by this author. Why? Because this author made it very clear in the book, that he would not have published the book if the local bishop had not only approved the seer but also his interpretation of the story of the apparition. That being the case, acceptance of a book on the true Virgin Mary had to be suppressed in order to protect the money and customer base created by the millions of dollars in the Medjugorje deception.

Booklets, leaflets, pamphlets, films, or books may not be used to promote an apparition or miracle that is under an interdiction of any kind. Contrary to what many will tell you, the abrogation of Canon Laws 1399 and 2318 do not permit the publication of apparitions unless no action or decision has been made by the local bishop. Any action that has been taken by the bishop must be obeyed. It matters not if he is a good or bad bishop, just as it does not matter if the seer is good or bad. God can use good or bad.

The promoters of un-approved apparitions and private revelations, appeal to two false conclusions from past Pope’s statements, and in both cases they take statements out of context. As the Vatican has already clarified in their Nov. 1996 statement, “The interpretation given by some individuals to a Decision approved by Paul VI is absolutely groundless.”

WHAT ABOUT POPE URGAN VIII?

And regarding Pope Urban VIII, this also is taken out of context. He was referring to a private revelation that was under investigation but no conclusion was reached yet, for as he said, “and if it should prove to be false”. The question you should ask is “prove to be false” by whom? By the promoters, the sheep, the bishop of the mystic, or by Rome.

The doctrine of the Church is “to the judgment of the diocesan Bishop”. Of course, there must be a period of time before the diocesan Bishop comes to a conclusion, and during this period of time one is not held responsible for a false belief. If, however, you continue to believe in a mystic that the local Bishop has “proved to be false”, will you still “receive all the blessings as if it were to be true”? No! Because then you have violated the Fourth Commandment. “Honor your Father and your Mother” because no one can have God for their Father without having the Church for their Mother.

“But, Lord, I believed with all my heart.” (Matt. 7:21=24) “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day,

`Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?’ And then will I profess unto them, `I never knew you, depart from me, you that work iniquity.’ Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock.”

The important thing about this statement of Christ is that the person was surprised, he thought he was doing the will of God, and he thought that the power he had to perform miracles and give prophesies was also from God. But this power was not from God. Christ goes on to say what the rules are. “He who hears my word” means all his words. Read HIS WORDS in Matt. 18:17 which states, “And if he will not hear them [witnesses or the facts] tell the church. And if he will not hear even the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican.”

THE LOCAL BISHOP

“We are of God. [the bishops] He that knoweth God, heareth us. He that is not of God, heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.” (1 John 4:6)

When John wrote his three Epistles he was over 100 years old and all the other apostles had already been martyred. Where he says “we” he means the descendants of the apostles, the bishops.

When you say, “What if the bishop is a bad bishop?”, you are saying that God has no power over His creatures. This powerless God of yours, can give prophesies and miracles to a mystic, but has no power over the very bishop that he commands us to obey to influence him to make the proper judgment. Therefore, you become your own bishops and your own Church. Then when you go up to heaven, He will say what? When you say I would rather believe in God than man, what you are really saying is I would rather believe in the mystic than the Church, and this is a Gnostic heresy.

Can a bishop make a mistake? Yes! But if you obey him, you are not sinning; but if you disobey him, you are, even if he made a mistake. However, I know of no private revelation in the 2000 year history of the Church that was condemned by a local bishop and later found to be true. I do know of private revelations that were approved by the local bishop and then found to be false. In fact one Pope lamented on his death bed that he almost brought the Church into its ruin by following a false mystic. That Pope was Urban VIII.

Experience with those who follow false apparitions will show that no amount of argument will convince them that they are wrong, since they get their information directly from “Heaven”. These followers of false mystics are so brain-washed that: if the local Bishop condemns the apparitions, they say he is corrupt; if the Doctrine of the Faith condemns the apparition, they say the Doctrine is outdated; and even if the Holy Father condemns the apparition, (which has never happened in history) they will say that he is a false pope. They will only believe the message, nothing else.

It is the bishop and not us, or even a saint (as the Cure De Ares discovered), that God gave the gift of discernment. In Matthew 18: 17 Christ teaches us to take all questions to the Church, and then He threatens us with: “And if he will not hear them, tell the Church. And if you will not hear even the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you bind on earth ”

(Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Pages 289, 290) “By virtue of Divine right the bishops possess an ordinary power of government over their dioceses. In regard to the relation between the Papal powers the Vatican Council declared: `This power of the Pope in no way derogates from the ordinary and immediate power of Episcopal jurisdiction by which bishops who have been set by the Holy Ghost to succeed and hold the place of the Apostles feed and govern each his own flock as true pastors; but rather, this authority is asserted, strengthened and vindicated by the Supreme and Universal Pastor.”

Ordinary power refers to the authority of the bishop coming from his office. Even if you believe your bishop to be bad, whatever his decision on an apparition in his See is, it is bound in Heaven. You have an obligation of obedience to his decision. Saint Iranaeus, taught by Saint John, the Apostle, says, “Anything done without the bishop is from the Devil.”

OBEDIENCE

I learned from the Vatican and the true seers that obedience is the key to knowing a true apparition from a false one. Listen to what St. Margaret Mary says:

“The greatest adversary of Jesus is Satan.  Jesus warned me to be on guard and said my greatest defense was obedience. `Don’t believe easily,’ He said, `in every inspiration, and don’t be too sure of it. Satan is furiously bent on deceiving you. So don’t do anything without the approval of those who are guiding you. As long as you have the sanction of obedience, he can never delude you. He is completely powerless over those who obey.’

“Perhaps this explains the great power Satan is wielding today, especially within the Church. Where disobedience is rampant. Satan has a field day. On the other hand, `he is completely powerless over those who obey.’”

No message from Heaven will ever violate the Fourth Commandment of God. No message from Heaven will ever condone or advocate disobedience. Listen to the words of the Virgin Mary to Mary of Agreda, Book Four, Page 421:

“Many times, in the effort to avoid humiliation at the hands of the immediate superior, the subject appeals to the higher authority and thus asks for exemptions from those who have only a general information and cannot know or understand his particular needs or danger. It cannot be denied, that this is still a kind of obedience; but it is also certain, that it is a shift for greater liberty, diminishes the reward and incurs danger; since without doubt it is more meritorious to obey and subject oneself to the inferior authority, to those in a lower condition, and to those less favorably disposed to one’s own views and inclinations.”

And Our Mother, Mary, finished by saying,

“Look upon them [superiors] with reverence, as taking the place of Christ, and your merit will be abundant; follow my footsteps, my example and my doctrine, and you will be perfect in all things.”

And maybe you will listen to the wisdom of Padre Pio: “Without obedience there is no virtue, without virtue there is no love, without love there is no God, without God there is no salvation.” (Padre Pio)

Even the bible places obedience as the test of the true from the false spirits. “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. BY THIS IS THE SPIRIT OF GOD KNOWN:—- HE WHO IS NOT OF GOD DOES NOT LISTEN TO US. BY THIS WE KNOW THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE SPIRIT OF ERROR.” (1 John 4:1-6)

Obedience holds the most important of all tests in a private revelation, even though it is not the first thing looked at. The capacity of one to understand obedience, background, holiness, and humility are looked at first. Satan is not capable of obedience because that implies obeying a mere creature. This was the test that saved Sister Josefa Menendez from being fooled by the appearance of Satan as Our Lord. Her spiritual director ordered her to renew her vows at any and every appearance of Our Lord.

(THE WAY OF DIVINE LOVE, Page 129)

Whenever it was not Christ, “The arch-enemy was not able to endure such acts of faith and love, and his crafty wiles failed in the face of them.” Even when the Virgin Mary appeared to her she would say—Page 131: “If you are the Mother of Jesus, allow me to renew before you the vow of virginity that I have made”

And again Our Lord told her—Page 414: “Seek Me in your Superiors. Listen to their words AS IF THEIR WORDS FELL FROM MY LIPS; I AM IN THEM FOR YOUR GUIDANCE.”

“I want you always to obey and I, myself, will obey.” (THE WAY OF DIVINE LOVE, by TAN)

Amazing, isn’t it? God will obey the human that He placed in authority. But can it be any other way? If God did not obey, He would contradict His own words, “Whatever you bind on earth, I will bind in Heaven.” How would we know if it was really God, or the father of lies. John told us how to know.

“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits ... he who is not of God does not listen to us [the bishops]. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” (1 John 4:1-6)

MIRACLES

What the layman might call a miracle is not always an act of God. Some are faked miracles done by auto-suggestion, magic, or outright fraud. Some are done by devils, and believe it or not, it is HARD TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. Both those done by God and those done by demons look and act like angels. In fact, they both are.

Every miracle of God is a sign. No miracle is without a salvation meaning. Sometimes it is a testimony to the truth which is being given in an apparition. In fact, no apparition with a message has ever been given by God without supporting that message with an irrefutable miracle.

Sometimes a miracle is a testimony for the saintliness of a person, such as an uncorrupt body or miracles after the death of a Saint. No miracle is given by God without a reason. That reason must be for the eternal salvation of the person or persons involved. It never has a purely physical reason.

Miracles testify to the truth.

This is what is taught by the First Vatican Council in the three essential elements of a miracle. The first being its function as a sign, a sign intended to assist reason in adhering to faith by proving, through external evidence, the credibility of revelation. Therefore, the Church always looks first to the divine intention which is the cause of the event.

Only God can perform a miraculous healing. Some types of healings are a sure sign of the work of God. These are expressed in Christ’s own words as an answer to a question of John the Baptist that can be deemed a test of Christ’s Spirit. Christ said His works were His proof.

“Go and report to John what you have heard and seen: the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead rise, the poor have the gospel preached to them.” (Luke 7:22)

If any of these kinds of cures can be proved, it is from God. However, healings are very difficult to prove, even true ones. There are hundreds of cures reported on Madeira Island over the grave of Charles Von Hapsburg. But because these people have not taken the time to report to doctors, very few can be declared true healings. Even in Lourdes, of the thousands of cures each year, only a handful are documented as miracles. Healings must be beyond the possibility of nature. They must be a permanent cure. They must be documented before and after by doctors with proof: such as X-rays.

Healings made by God are always done quietly and with dignity. Satanic cures are done by autosuggestion, hypnotism, emotion and hyperactivity’s of natural processes. Often demons can fake a cure by causing fake symptoms of an illness and then faking a cure. They can cause a person, who could not walk, to walk in two ways: one is if the reason for not walking was mental, and second, demons can invisibly hold up someone so that they seem to walk. But this will not last. Another way demons can cure is by autosuggestion—- suggesting to the sick person that they are cured and the person feels cured. In the long run the sickness becomes apparent again and often death results because the sick person discontinues the normal medical treatments.

So, it is essential that the cures be long term and well documented. Satan can even fake bringing someone back from the dead by possessing the dead body. It is said that this is what the Antichrist will do.

Demons CANNOT really perform a miracle, but there are things they can do that will seem like miracles to the layman. A good rule of thumb is that demons can do anything that man or nature can do, except that they can do it invisibly and instantly. If something can be done by man or nature, Satan can do the same without you seeing him and at a thousand times the speed. We will emphasize again for the sake of our friends, demons cannot perform a true miracle in any sense of the word. Laymen, however, will see the following things as miracles:

LEVITATION:

A perfect example of the appearance of a miracle is levitation. Satan can lift people or things off the ground into the air or cause them to travel at great speeds. He does this by simply lifting them up with his invisible angels. This phenomena is a good illustration of where we get information about the power of demons. This power is recorded in Scripture (Matt. 4:5) and is documented in thousands of Exorcisms.

ECSTASIES:

Demons can produce true ecstasies so that the seer is completely oblivious of sound, light, or feelings. They can make the seer stiff as a board and/or so heavy that no one can lift or move the seer. This is done by Satan in the same way a hypnotist can do it, except faster and invisible.

APPARITIONS:

Satan can make a true apparition. He has appeared as the Virgin Mary, as Christ, as saints, angels and relatives. Satan appeared to Padre Pio as Christ, to Sister Josefa Menendez as Christ and Mary, and to countless other saints and false mystics.

LOCUTIONS, VISIONS, VOICES:

Satan can bring about locutions, visions, and voices. Not only do we know this from the oracles of old and from false apparitions, but we have thousands of cases documented in Exorcisms.

MOVE OR RAISE THINGS:

He can move statues, furniture, and even mountains. He can cause fire to come down from heaven.

HALOS OR AURAS:

He can cause a glow or luminous rays to be seen around a seer or objects. He can change a picture or negative to have these same halos or auras of light to appear on them.

STIGMATA:

He can produce a stigmata [as you will see in the chapter on the history of false apparitions], however, this will be by natural but invisible means. They cannot be instantly cured.

ODORS:

Satan can simulate odors of roses or incense. Any chemist can do the same, and no one would see them do it. This is especially easy since all trace will be gone.

FASTS:

He can help his seer to have a prolonged fast; however, tests will prove that the body is not properly sustained as in the case of Theresa Neumann, who showed no physical signs of fasting, and in fact, remained plump.

SIGNS IN THE SKY:

Demons can show great signs in the sky, like fire to come down from heaven. It is said that the Antichrist will be able to do this very thing. (Apoc. 13:13) St. Augustine says,

“When fire fell from heaven and wiped out, in one sweep, all the large household and the numerous flocks of holy Job, and a whirlwind rushed down and overthrew his house and slew his children, those were no illusions; and yet they were the work of Satan, to whom God had given this power.”

(CITY OF GOD, Book XX, Chapter 19)

St. Hippolytus, in speaking of the future Antichrist, said that he will be able to walk on the waves of the sea, turn day into night, and direct the course of the sun at will. Why then should Satan not be able to make the sun spin and change colors? But these are usually illusions and not real like Fatima. The difference is that not all will see it, and the effects will not be the same. At Fatima, everyone saw it, even those who did not believe [even communists in surrounding towns miles away]. The after effects were hundreds of cures, the ground dry after weeks of rain, and real graces of conversion.

MAKE GOLD:

Satan and demons can change brass to gold. This is called Alchemy and has been practiced throughout the ages. The reason Satan can do it is that the pure science of Chemistry can do it.

It is no longer being done by chemists because the cost is higher than the cost of real gold.

The method of the Alchemists was a medieval magic using what they called the “Philosopher’s Stone”. This magical art was practiced in Egypt and China. Hermes Trismegistus is regarded as its founder. Robert of Chester describes the successful making of gold in the presence of the son of the Caliph Yazid I, 682 A.D.

Although we, at the center, have seen over 400 miracles of God and Satan, including levitation of man and object, not one of us have ever seen metal turn to real gold. We have seen rosaries that the owners claimed turned to gold, but investigation showed them all to be brass.

TONGUES, SECRETS:

In the Roman ritual, common miracles of Satan are speaking in an unknown language, understanding someone who speaks it, revealing hidden secrets of people, things, or places. Since God promises not only to forgive sins in confession but to forget them, if someone were to reveal a sin from the past that was forgiven in confession, it is absolutely demonic.

TEARS:

Satan can fake tears on a statue, but it will not be real tears, which even a chemist cannot reproduce. The tears that Satan can cause will be proved to be nothing but water. He cannot even produce water out of nothing; however, he can cause water to condense out of the air and onto a statue, since this can also be done by man. He cannot produce blood on a statue or picture, unless it is done when no one is looking, in which case he could bring it to the room from somewhere else. He could use a leech as he did on a statue in Portugal. Investigation by the Church showed leech saliva in the blood.

THINGS ONLY GOD CAN DO

Only God can create matter out of nothing, such as the changing of water into wine at the marriage feast of Cana, or the multiplication of the bread and fishes. This would also hold for cures that require instantaneous growth of destroyed tissue such as cancer, or the quick closing of a wound such as a stigmata.

By the same criteria as above, only God can multiply matter, since it requires creation. Any instantaneous and permanent cure, scientifically tested, objectively diagnosed and measured, showing the condition of the body both before and after the cure, can only be from God.

The best of these are organic lesions [hernia, cancer, toxication, parasites, and the like], or the organ shows a congenital malformation, or again it is in a state of degeneration or gradual disintegration. Some processes of tissue degeneration are irreversible and therefore incurable. The cure of a blind child, who was born with no pupils in her eyes, is beyond the power of Satan since it is beyond the power of nature. Done by the prayers of Padre Pio. She is still living and she still has no pupils.

A supernatural light given to a soul to understand mysteries of God from imaginary images, as happened with Joseph (Gen. 40:41) and with Daniel (Dan. 1:24), is the highest form of miracle. Neither the demons nor the angels can infuse this supernatural light into the understanding, since they can only cause images and fantasies in the imagination. See Chapters XIV, XV in CITY OF GOD, Book 1.

Satan can fake bilocation by carrying his seer someplace quickly, but only God can allow someone to be in two places at the same time, as in the case of Padre Pio and Mary Agreda.

SEEKING THE SUPERNATURAL

The greatest of all mystics, St. John of the Cross, says:

“(God’s)—- displeasure at the quest for revelations and locutions, even though He sometimes answers them, lies in the illicitness of transcending the natural boundaries God has established for the governing of creatures. He has fixed natural and rational limits by which man is to be ruled. A desire to transcend them, hence, is unlawful, and to desire to investigate and arrive at knowledge in a supernatural way is to go beyond the natural limits. It is unlawful, consequently, and God who is offended by everything illicit is displeased.

“The devil is most pleased when he sees that a man desires to admit revelation. For then he has an excellent opportunity to inject errors and disparage faith. As I have declared, a man desiring these apprehensions becomes coarse in his faith and even exposes himself to many temptations and improprieties.” (The Ascent of Mt. Carmel, II, 21, 1).

Any person who seeks a spiritual chrism or supernatural phenomena will not get one from God. The primary condition for a true apparition or miracle is that man free himself from any desire for supernatural phenomena, such as visions, locutions, revelations; and that he gives them all up in order to remain in the pure faith which St. John of the Cross calls the “night of faith” or the “dark night”, and which is what really sanctifies. St. John of the Cross says,

“The Devil rejoices greatly when a soul seeks after revelations and is ready to accept them; for such conduct furnishes him with many opportunities of insinuating delusions, and derogation from faith as much as he possibly can; for such a soul becomes rough and rude, and falls frequently into many temptations and unseemly habits.”

MIRACLES DO NOT PRODUCE GRACE

A phenomenon or marvel may have no natural explanation. It is not for that reason to be assumed from God. It could be attributed to satanic forces, that can exercise powers over nature and mind, and can create many illusions. A special chapter will be given to satanic miracles.

Apparitions, locutions, ecstasies, etc. do not give grace of themselves; and therefore, they do not sanctify, do not justify, and do not [of themselves] make a person better. Only grace does that; and the gifts of the Holy Spirit do not give grace. Balaam was a prophet (Num 23:24) but received no grace from it. Moses brought water from a rock (Num. 20:13) but was punished as a result of it. The miracle of the manna (Num. 11:6) was the object of blasphemy for those who ate it.

“The grace of divine visions, revelations and raptures,” wrote Mary of Agreda, “although they are operations of the Holy Spirit, must be distinguished from justifying grace and from virtues, which sanctify and perfect the soul in their operations.”

NO NEW DOCTRINE

God cannot contradict God; therefore, look for contradictions. No new doctrine can come from an apparition or any other kind of private revelation. All faith, the complete deposit of faith, was completed and sealed with the death of the last Apostle. One must never guide his life and actions on private revelation. Private revelation must always conform to Divine revelation [the Bible and Tradition].

No mystical manifestation can teach anything that is contrary to Catholic doctrine and tradition and worship. Any revelation that endorses, approves or condones hedtrodox changes and innovation in faith or worship which are in conflict with the continuing tradition and magisterium of the Church or are even of a doubtful and unproved authenticity and orthodoxy must be rejected.

“Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.” (Gal. 1:8)

For all revelations contrary to faith or morals must be absolutely rejected, even if this is in a single point or a single word, according to St. Theresa of Avila.

If a mystical phenomena should serve to confirm or endorse some movement which is questionable, or should confirm some leader, who pretends a false magisterial authority, it would have to be considered spurious or diabolical. There are already many schismatic or heretical sects or cults which are founded upon alleged private apparitions or miracles.

Fidelity belongs to all the teachings of the Church. Listen to the words of Our Lady to Mary Agreda in Book Four [Coronation], Page 442:

“I desire also that you hold in great veneration the councils of the Church and all such gatherings, and whatever is resolved and established by them; for the Holy Spirit assists at these councils and He fulfills his promise, that He will be with those who gather together in His name (Matt 8:20). Hence what is thus ordained and commanded must be obeyed. Although in our times, no visible signs of the assistance of the Holy Spirit occur in such councils, yet He does not fail to govern them invisibly; for signs and wonders are not any more so necessary as in the FIRST BEGINNINGS OF THE CHURCH.” (What if an apparition condemns a Council????)

(2 Thess. 2:7-12; Eph. 5:6; Col. 2:18; 1 Tim. 4:1-4; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:12-13; 2 Pet. 3:3; 1 John 4:1 2 John 4 and 7)

To sum up, miracles are the test of doctrine, and doctrine is the test of miracles.

Can an apparition be true if it advocates not listening to the Church, “which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and mainstay of the truth.”???? (1 Tim. 3:15)

If the Church investigates, and we do not accept that investigation, what does the Bible say of us? “Appeal to the Church, but if he refuse to hear EVEN THE CHURCH, let him be to you as the heathen and the publican. Amen I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven.” (Matt. 18:17-18)

“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. BY THIS IS THE SPIRIT OF GOD KNOWN:—- HE WHO IS NOT OF GOD DOES NOT LISTEN TO US. BY THIS WE KNOW THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE SPIRIT OF ERROR.”

(1 John 4:1-6) Who is us? The Bishops!

No true apparition of God can contradict another true apparition of God. One example of this would be the description of Heaven. The Apostle Paul, Padre Pio, Mary Agreda, Anne Catherine Emmerich, and countless others were allowed by God to see the third Heaven. Not one of these was able, with human words, to describe any aspect of it. If any apparition or vision claimed to be able to describe Heaven, it would be false.

By harmony we also mean that it must fit into place in the Christian system and into the Christian history in a logical way, without unnecessary repetition, or unneeded revelation.

No miracle of God is without an economic reason. Miracles and wonders of God are not multiplied without necessity. Nor is there ever a single word given in an apparition that is not for the sanctification of the soul. Nothing, absolutely nothing, comes from God without the salvation of the soul as its end. All words or actions done without this end are to be rejected as from illusion or from demons. Jesus said,

“But let your speech be ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no;’ and whatever is beyond these comes from the evil one.” (Matt. 5:37) “Every IDLE WORD that man shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment.” (Matt. 12:36)

God does not conform to the whims of man. Bernadette of Lourdes was told to ask the Virgin Mary to make the wild roses bloom, and as Bernadette tells it,

“She smiled when I told her that you wanted a miracle. She smiled again when I asked that she make the wild roses bloom.” The Virgin did not enter into this kind of POINTLESS CONVERSATION.

The devil sometimes appeared to St. Catherine of Bologna as Christ and demanded of her, under the appearance of perfection, the most impossible things, in order to drive her to despair. This too is a sin against economy. If a message was to request something that was too difficult for the average person in their station of life; excessive prayer, fasting, etc., it must be rejected as false.

THE LOCAL BISHOP

ONLY the local bishop, who has unlimited geographical jurisdiction on matters of the supernatural, can make the final judgment of the Church as to what spirit a supernatural phenomena comes from: one’s own spirit, God’s Spirit, or a Demonic Spirit. A bishop from another area has no authority whatsoever.

Every validly consecrated bishop receives his authority and power (John 20:21-23; Luke 22:19-20) through an apostolic succession of bishops that can be traced all the way back to the twelve Apostles who received their authority and power from Christ, Himself.

(2 Cor.5:20; Acts 1:24-26; 14:22; 20:28; 1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:5; Mk. 16:15-16; Jn. 16:13-14; 20:21-23; 14:16,17,26; Mt. 18:17; 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 3:7; Is. 22:22: Lk. 10:16; Eph. 4:11-12; Heb. 13:7; 1 John 4:6)

Encyclical “Stais comnitum” of Leo XII-1896 (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott, Page 289)

“This power of the Pope in no way derogates from the ordinary and immediate power of Episcopal jurisdiction by which bishops, who have been sent by the Holy Spirit to succeed and take the place of the Apostles, feed and govern each his own flock as true pastors; but rather, this authority is asserted, strengthened and vindicated by the Supreme and Universal Pastor.”

According to this declaration the Episcopal power is:

“An ordinary power, that is, it is associated with the Episcopal office; an immediate power, that is it is not practiced at the order of a superior, but in the bishop’s own name. Thus bishops are not delegated (agents) and so are not vicars (representatives) of the pope, but they are independent pastors of the flocks entrusted to them, even though they are subordinate to the pope. A power appointed by God for the Apostles (on the ground of divine ordinance, whether in the immediate commission of Christ, or on the direction of the Holy Spirit—- Acts 20, 26) have passed on their pastoral office to the bishops. The bishops are the successors of the Apostles, not in such a manner that an individual bishop is a successor of an individual Apostle, but that the bishops in their totality are successors of the College of Apostles.

“This is a true pastoral power, as it embraces all the ecclesiastical powers to the exercise of the office, the power to legislate, to judge and to punish. It is a power which is limited locally and materially, since it extends only to a definite segment of the Church, and is circumscribed by the Papal power which is superior to it. Matters of causae maiores (universal importance), touching the welfare of the whole Church, are reserved to the Holy Fathers.” (Dr. Ott)

No one would dare to say that the Holy Spirit has the power to bring about an apparition but does not have the power to direct the very man, the local bishop, whom God placed over the area to protect it from error.

ROME AND PRIVATE REVELATION

Contrary to the erroneous belief of many, Rome never ever interferes with the decision of a local bishop in matters of private revelation. Sometimes a local bishop will ask help of Rome, but in such cases only the Nuncio of the local area will become involved. We went to the Vatican and spoke to the Holy Father’s closest friend regarding this. He told us that there is not even a department in the Vatican to handle such cases. [The Nuncio is the Vatican Ambassador.]

It is true that the Holy Father could overturn a Bishop’s decision on matters of faith and morals, but only if the matter was of universal importance. If Rome is silent on an appeal to the Holy Father, it is because he leaves the matter to the local Bishop; and the matter is closed. (Silence is affirmation - St. Thomas More)

The fact is that Rome never has, and never will, overturn the decision of a local bishop on matters of private revelation. [Regarding Medjugorje, we went to Rome and asked on film. See our second film. We also have a written statement from the Vatican.]

Rome has only informally endorsed three Marian apparitions: Fatima, Lourdes, and Guadalupe; and these, only after the local bishop investigated and approved the miracles.

We also found out in the Vatican that there are many words attributed to the Holy Father that he never said regarding some active apparitions.

THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH

Babylon is the symbol of the Church of Satan, and the word means “confusion”. This confusion came about when Nemrod tried to build the tower of Babel and God confused their languages. That is why demon means “to divide”. The Kingdom of God, the Church, is the end of that confusion, as expressed by St. Augustine,

“He sent the Holy Spirit He had promised; and the greatest and most unmistakable sign of the Spirit’s coming to those who believed was that every one of them spoke in the languages of all nations; thus signifying that the UNITY of the Catholic Church would exist among all nations and would thus speak all languages.”

Paul teaches, “We are many; but we are one loaf, and one body.” (1 Cor. 10:17) Thus, he who is in the unity of Christ’s Body, that is, the body which the faithful habitually take when they communicate at the altar in the state of grace, and therefore become members of that same body, can claim to be Christ’s children.

Any apparitions or visions or voices that speak of pluralism [that all religions are the same in the eyes of God or have the means of salvation] or that do not draw people to the truth and to the Body of Christ (the Catholic Church) are not from God.

PROPHESY

God knows all things, past, present, and future. If He, or one of His messengers, declares that something will happen, it will. If it does not, or does not exactly when promised, it is not of God.

“If you say to yourselves, ‘How can we recognize an oracle which the Lord has spoken?’ Know that, even though a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if his oracle is not fulfilled or verified, it is an oracle which the Lord did not speak.” (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)

Some will say that God can change His mind if He wishes [as He did with Jonas and the Whale]. But this does not hold water, since God did not tell Jonas WHEN He would destroy the City of Ninive, and in fact, the following generation it was totally destroyed as He promised and without further warnings.

WHY DID ROME CONDEMN VASSULA RYDEN?

Rome always leaves private revelation to the pastoral discernment of the local bishop; however, Vassula Ryden is not a Catholic, and therefore she has no bishop. It became important for the Vatican to let bishops know that it was not OK for them to allow her into their Churches to receive the Sacraments.

MYSTICS

One should look at is a seer’s background. Is the person from a good family or a family prone to superstition and magic? Is the seer free of mental pathological conditions, balanced and calm mentally and emotionally, self-possessed and dispassionate, not given to exaggeration, inordinate imagination, passion, or impetuosity?

All this is important; however, it is not important that the person be holy or even religious prior to a private revelation. Balaam, a very sinful man, gave four oracles from God (Num. 23:24), but was far from holy. The seer must, however, be Catholic, since no miracle has ever taken place outside the Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit cannot be found outside the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. A Catholic seer can perform a miracle on a non-Catholic, but this is only done to prompt the person into the Kingdom. A miracle of God can happen to a non-Catholic place (a church, an icon, a statue), but not to a non-Catholic person.

A seer does not need to be holy before the private revelation. By infused knowledge, Mary Agreda in Book One, Page 476, states that,

“—-revelations and visions are not dependent upon the sanctity and perfection of those, that are thus favored, but upon the Divine Will. God concedes them according to weight and measure for the ends which He wishes to attain in his Church (Wisdom 11:21). God can without doubt grant great and the most exalted visions to those, who are less holy, and only inferior revelations to those, who are of exalted sanctity. The gift of prophecy and the other gifts freely given He can give to those even, who are not saints; which have nothing to do with moral virtues.”

A seer, however, who sees Christ or Mary cannot remain the same AFTER an apparition. No one could remain earthly after seeing the Mother of God. No one could have anything on their mind except Heaven after a true apparition or vision. If the private revelation is inner-locution, one could be excused for not becoming more holy, since no vision of the heavenly is seen. Once, however, Heaven is seen or touched, the earthly things should become abhorrent to the seer.

Holiness is a complete love for the heavenly and a hatred for anything of this earth. Let us hear the words of Our Lord to Blessed Anna Maria Taigi, “WIFE, MOTHER AND MYSTIC”, Page 44:

“He who wishes to taste My delights must despise the world, and expect to be despised by it in turn ... Love, then, to meet with contempt, for love of contempt is the true foundation of virtue.”

The essence of holiness consists in conforming to the Divine Will, loving God above all things, and despising the things of this world.

HUMILITY

The main indicator of sanctity (holiness) is a deep and true humility. To reach high into sanctity you must fall deep into humility. Humility is the opposite of pride and therefore the opposite of Satan. Satan cannot be humble and neither can a seer of Satan, even one who does not know that Satan is the object of the vision. The humble will always submit their revelations to their spiritual directors and will always obey their lawful superiors.

Blessed Anna Maria Taigi often doubted whether it was the good or evil spirit that spoke to her. God told her the most important of all discernment an individual can use. Page 44:

“You must know,: said Jesus to her, “that when I speak to you I produce in you tenderness, peace, compunction; above all, HUMILITY. Know well, my daughter, that no matter how much he desires to love me, if a man enter not the straight path of humility he will keep on stumbling. Man has within himself a dust that settles round his heart; it is called self-love ... Man is full of pride, and I have nothing to do with the proud. Only the humble find favor in My sight…

“I make My abode in humble souls that are full of simplicity. The more lowly and uncultured they are, the more I take pleasure in them. As to these wise and learned professors whose heads are full of the fumes of pride, I put them down from their seats, and you, yourself, shall soon learn where I send them.”

False mysticism, instead of humbling man and glorifying Christ, tends rather to clothe man in divine attributes which of right belong to God.

TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH

Since Satan is a liar from the beginning, honesty is a very important virtue in a seer. Honesty is a major test, since the spirit of Satan cannot be honest in anything that does not ultimately bring about a lie. He can tell truths if the end result is a lie. His lies are hidden in truths so that the elect cannot recognize them. Therefore, any lie at all will cause us to discount the miracle or vision.

HEROIC VIRTUE

In all cases of true visions, seers practice heroic virtue AFTER an apparition or vision from God. St. Theresa of Avila founded thirty convents by her own hard work, in spite of the hundreds of visions. Blessed Anna Maria Taigi and St. Bridget never neglected their families, in spite of the many visions. False quietism leaves to Christ alone the salvation of the world, excluding and neglecting man’s co-operation. Naturalism, of course, would also be wrong since it places its faith in the social and human action, without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

JOY

A true apparition, after the initial wonderment and even fear, will result in a true, deep peace, joy, and security. Diabolical visions, on the other hand, bring joy at first, but then bring restlessness, moroseness, sadness, and discouragement. A true vision will strengthen virtue, whereas false visions will beget pride, presumption and disobedience.

THE GREATEST MIRACLE IN THE WORLD

The book “THE IMITATION OF CHRIST” says that if you travel the world over looking for miracles, you would not find a greater miracle than the Mass. Therefore, any seer who puts more importance in a miracle than in the Mass would be a false seer. At Fatima God sent an angel to instill devotion in the children to the Body and Blood of Christ before the messages were given by His Mother. Our Lady’s own words to Mary Agreda—TRANSFIXION, Page 428,

“I wish you also to ponder, what a horrible crime it is in the eyes of the Lord, in mine, and in those of all the saints, that men should despise and neglect the frequent reception of the holy Communion, and that they should approach it without preparation and fervent devotion.”

And Mary Agreda, inspired by the Holy Spirit, spoke of the main reason for the wounded heart of Mary.

“Mary foresaw also the ingratitude of mortals in regard to this ineffable Sacrament, [the Mass] established for their benefit, and She resolved to atone, with all the powers of her being, for our shameless and ungrateful behavior. She took upon Herself the duty of rendering thanks to the eternal Father and to His divine Son for this extraordinary and wonderful benefit to the human race. This earnest desire dwelled in Her soul during Her whole life and many times did She shed tears of blood welling forth from Her purest heart in order to satisfy for our shameful and torpid forgetfulness.”

So, to me the Mass is greater than even a pilgrimage to Fatima. Unfortunately, just like the charismatic movement, people say, I get more out of the pilgrimage. God puts more into the Mass.

SACRAMENTALS

A sacramental is very effective against demons. Sacramentals are blessed items such as holy water, rosaries, crucifixes, relics, statues, icons, etc. However, it is the blessing that is effective and not the thing. So, any rosary, water, crucifix or statue that does not have the priest’s special blessing is useless against demons. Keep this in mind when you see fake seers or even witches wearing crucifixes or crosses around their necks. A crucifix without a priest’s blessing is useless against demons. Mary is not a priest. A priest takes the place of Christ. Mary does not take the place of Christ. Mary cannot give a priest’s blessing to a sacramental.

MONEY

Mirna, the Church-approved seer of Our Lady of Soufanieh, has never taken any money, even though she has two children she lives in total poverty. Any seer who makes money of any kind out of an apparition or miracle would have to be suspect, for this would not be Christ-like, and would be steeling for you cannot sell the work of the Holy Spirit. Greed for money is the badge of the false prophet.

(2 Peter 2:3, 1 Tim. 6:5-10)

APPEARANCE

If you see expensive clothes, makeup, fingernail polish, jewelry, fancy hairdos or any other preoccupation with looks, you can suspect the devil. If the clothes are indecent or pompous, forget it. There are times when one should dress better as laid down by St. Francis de Sales in INTRODUCTION TO THE DEVOUT LIFE, but this is infrequent.

“One should dress according to his condition, so that the wise and the good may have no reason to complain that you do too much or young people say that you do too little.”

“The attire of the body and the laughter of the teeth, and the gait of the man, show what he is.” (Eccle. 19:27)

And in my opinion, a woman seer who has seen the Virgin Mary (who is never without a veil over Her head), and then prays or attends Mass without a veil, we would wonder about. A veil says that you are in the presence of God or that you are a bride of Christ. Any seer who does not want to imitate her Mother, would seem at least foolish. (1 Cor. 11:4-5; 11:13)

CHARITY

Love is often confused with hugging and kissing. Love [as Christ taught] is an action, an action of mercy. The works of mercy are: to feed the hungry, to give drink to the thirsty, to clothe the naked, to visit the imprisoned, to shelter the homeless, to visit the sick, to bury the dead, to admonish the sinner, to instruct the ignorant, to counsel the doubtful, to comfort the sorrowful, to bear wrongs patiently, to forgive all injuries, to pray for the living and the dead. Our love is to admonish the sinner, even ourselves, to instruct the ignorant, and to counsel the doubtful. I would rather have the fruit of the Holy Spirit than have the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Paul says that if you had all the gifts of the Holy Spirit but did not have love, (the fruit of the Holy Spirit) you have nothing. Therefore, if a seer is not led to some or all of these acts of love, then no grace is being received.

TYPES OF MIRACLES

Miracles come from GOD. Satan works “lying wonders”. Only God can create matter out of nothing, such as the changing of water into wine at the marriage feast of Cana, or the multiplication of the bread and fishes. This would also hold for cures that require instantaneous growth of destroyed tissue such as cancer, or the quick closing of a wound such as a stigmata. By the same criteria as above, only God can multiply matter, since it requires creation. Any instantaneous and permanent cure, scientifically tested, objectively diagnosed and measured, showing the condition of the body both before and after the cure, can only be from God. The best of these are organic lesions [hernia, cancer, toxication, parasites, and the like], or the organ shows a congenital malformation, or again it is in a state of degeneration or gradual disintegration. Some processes of tissue degeneration are irreversible and therefore incurable. The cure of a blind child, who was born with no pupils in her eyes, is beyond the power of Satan since it is beyond the power of nature. Done by the prayers of Padre Pio. She is still living and she still has no pupils. A supernatural light given to a soul to understand mysteries of God from imaginary images, as happened with Joseph (Gen. 40:41) and with Daniel (Dan. 1:24), is the highest form of miracle. Neither the demons nor the angels can infuse this supernatural light into the understanding, since they can only cause images and fantasies in the imagination. See Chapters XIV, XV in CITY OF GOD, Book 1.

THINGS GOD WOULD NEVER DO

But there are things that God would never do. This is pure logic.

A lie is a lie is a lie, and God will never lie for any reason, no matter what the justification. Therefore, it is wise to compare all messages with the deposit of faith, with the Bible, and with Church- accepted private revelations. God will not contradict Himself, His Church, or one of His saints.

God will never ever speak a single word, Himself, or through one of His messengers, that is not for the salvation of souls. Useless words, prolonged miracles, useless miracles, or idle conversation will never come from God.

Study the Bible or true apparitions and you will not find one word that does not have supernatural meanings very, very useful for the salvation of souls. Never is God concerned with worldly things. (Matt. 12:36)

Satan appeared to Sister Josefa Menendez disguised as Our Lord, but: ” the very EXCESS of this infernal craft made clear who he really was, for this was not the first time he had attempted to pose as an angel of light.” (Page 397, THE WAY OF DIVINE LOVE - TAN) It was by the excess in words and actions that Sister Josepha Menendez recognized him.

God will never take away man’s free will. A worldwide, continuous, visible miracle would be an example of taking away man’s free will, because it would not allow disbelief.

Anything irreverent or undignified like showing off power, or causing a seer to run after Him, or fall on one’s face, or howl like a dog, or make animal cries, or strange howling, or make sudden or awkward or ungainly movements such as convulsions, jumping, running, dancing, falls, could not be from God.

God would never do anything without a salvation reason. God will never ever condone the breaking of any commandment, and that goes also for the Fourth Commandment, which demands that we obey our superiors, especially our lawful Bishops.

TRUE BUT FALSE

True revelations can be misinterpreted, sometimes even by the seers themselves. Sometimes private revelations might be altered or modified unwittingly by the seer, or even more so by those who record or edit the revelations conveyed by the seers. There is evidence that the revelations of Catherine Emmerich, Mary of Agreda, and Marie Lataste were not perfectly transcribed and edited.

True revelations can also be interpreted wrong by those who promote the messages. Very often these overzealous people exaggerate or add words or meanings to the apparitions that are not there. And as we said before, Satan always tries to add his own confusion to the real messages. Uncautious promoters or believers mix up everything together. This is primarily done by mixing up messages from a false vision with the messages of a true one and coming up with a different meaning altogether [a meaning acceptable to Satan].

Friends and relatives of a seer can totally destroy the works of God, especially if they are in authority over the seer, as in the case of parents. Usually these relatives do not have the grace needed to carry out the will of the messages.

TRUTH BY ASSOCIATION

One of the greatest and most common tricks of false miracles is to associate themselves with true ones. They know that we love Fatima and Padre Pio, so they make it appear that the messages or the seer is also devoted to Fatima and Padre Pio. They may have a picture taken with the Pope or Padre Pio and claim, falsely, that they have their support. The next major way they attempt to look truthful is to drown the false with the truth. When we analyze messages or statements by a seer or the writers of false miracles, we automatically expect that 99% of what they say will be true doctrine and true holiness. The 99% is the bait for that 1% that will put you in Hell. There are so many false apparitions today, that we find it hard to find any Catholic who does not believe in at least one of them. Satan, in order to lead everyone astray, has found a new trick in the Twentieth Century. Every false miracle will support at least one other false miracle. Some apparitions have almost no other reason but to support another one that is losing its following. Since Heaven will never ever contradict its Kingdom on Earth, any apparition that says a condemned apparition is true is not from God.

We have seen this twice with our own eyes. Miracles that were truly of God (but without any messages or mystics) had a false mystic come along after the miracle and say that the reason for the miracle was this or that. The facts were in both cases that the Church investigated the miracles and found them to be supernatural, but not the mystics. The uncautious writers, however, have mixed them both up, claiming that the mystics have Church approval, which is not true. Maria Esperanza is trying to buy the Holy Spirit with lies. She is not part of the true apparitions of Our Lady in the trees or part of the miracle of the Host.

SATANIC PROPHECY

Satan and his demons know what is happening all over the world. They know what has happened without any forgetfulness. Anything God has done [in the form of miracles, messages, prophecies, etc.] that man has seen, Satan has seen it also.

Satan uses all this information to attempt to understand what God is planning, and then he tries to thwart God’s plans. He does this primarily by aping. He always does his miracles exactly the same way as God, except for one thing, his pride does not allow him to be simple; and therefore, his miracles are always exaggerated: they are bigger and longer; there are more of them; and they always have more words.

There is a certain economy to “more”, in that it tends to drown out a true revelation, simply by its volume. We have said aping, which means acting the same. But Satan will act the same in order to get the opposite result. To understand the opposite result, let us first look at God’s reasons.

MIRACLES BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH

All mystical theologians say that “miracles are signs to support truth”. Thomas Aquinas teaches that we must all believe the same in matters of faith. “In devotion—diversity; in faith—unity; in all other things—love.”

If this unity of faith was not so important, God would, since He could, perform some miracles outside the Catholic Church. The mere fact that He does not, is a sign in itself.

We have studied over four hundred private revelations that have been approved by the Church. One thing can be said for every one of them, they all have the message of unity in faith. God founded one faith, one kingdom, one Body of Christ, and He supports this unity throughout the ages with miracles.

That being the case, Satan’s main object in false miracles is disunity. Divide and conquer is the plan. The results of every false miracle we have studied is disunity. They all talk obedience but practice disobedience; they talk humility but practice pride; they talk Catholic but create a cult.

The history of false miracles will show divisions in religious orders, divisions in families, and separations from the Body of Christ, the Church.

HOLINESS

All of this is done with the outward signs of holiness, extreme holiness: praying the rosary ten times a day, fasting more that the saints, sacrifices greater than prudence, etc. These extremes are what fool most people, and therefore they say, “But look at the fruits.”

If Satan can get you to believe one point in matters of religion and morals different from what Christ taught through His Church, you are excommunicated ipso-facto, and you are no longer a member of the Body of Christ, you no longer share in the Communion of Saints, you are divided from the unity of believers. Satan has won.

SATAN’S MASTER PLAN

It is not hard for us to see the evolution of devotion brought about by private revelation. The Scapular, the Rosary, the Sacred Heart, the Immaculate Heart, the Immaculate Conception, the Twin Hearts of Jesus and Mary on the Miraculous Metal, the Divine Mercy, all fit together like a grand master building up of devotion.

There is also an evolution of knowledge, from the early Doctors of the Church, like Augustine explaining the mysteries of the Bible, down through Thomas Aquinas, Kempis, Catherine Emmerich, Sister Mary Agreda.

Coupled with these are hundreds of private revelations warning of future chastisements, of future wars, of a final victory of Mary, a period of peace, etc.

Keeping God’s work in mind, let us look at Satan’s plans. First and foremost, Satan wants to destroy God’s Kingdom [the Church] because it is the power of the Church that keeps Satan chained [restricted]. The very first cults in the first century were developed by Satan with false miracles for the primary purpose of destroying the Church.

The Church is God’s Kingdom because it is ONE as Christ is one (1 Cor. 10:17; John 17:11). It is VISIBLE (Mt. 5:14). It is HOLY (Mt. 7:15-20). It is CATHOLIC-universal (Mk. 16:15-16). And it is APOSTOLIC (Eph. 2:19-20).

From the time of Luther, the oneness, the holiness, the universality, and the apostolic succession of the priesthood have been attacked. As a result, we now have approximately 27,000 Christian religions claiming to be the Word of God, in other words claiming to be the Body of Christ, therefore claiming to be the Christ. These religions cannot be holy, since they do not have apostolic succession; therefore, do not have the Body of Christ in them.

The French

Deoacveritati: I can’t believe you took up all that space in a combox!

Bottom line, the ‘lady’ appearing at Medjugorje is a demon in disguise….

This article is full of errors and misinformation. It is a known fact that the two bishops who took positions against the Medjugordje apparitions were NO LONGER in the jurisdiction os said apparitions when they made their statements. Further, the seers were always obedient to the frequent instructions by these bishops when they did have jurisdiction. This writer needs to get his facts straight and present them responsibly. Obviously he has an agenda!

I never believed in Medjugorje. The messages just don’t make sense and many are heretical.

I am sick and tired of everyone who talks about the “fruits”, the conversions.  I went to Bayside which was condemned, I did not know it was when I went, I was converted the same day.  God took a bad and in his mercy for me he made a good come out of it. So if I use the logic of all the Med lovers since a good fruit came out of Bayside it must be a true apparition even though it has been condemned!  Give it a rest!  Med is a fraud just like Garabandal.

The first and foermost thing to do is to stay true to the Catholic faith.Do not worry nor get so caught up in apparitions.I have been to Lourdes,Fatima and Medjugorge..while all were beautiful and deeply profound experiances it is also very important to simply live according to Gods Will.Trust in God and stay faithful to the One True Church that Christ Himself left us.If you do this you can not be led astray.What good are messages and warnings…you want messages and warnings?Just look at the state of the world..there is your message..Like Jesus said…you can look at the sky and see the clouds forming and the winds starting to blow and know that a storm is coming..how is it you can’t see the signs of the times.Pray and stay close to God and you will not be decieved.

Medjugorje doubters call the events a fraud or hoax yet after 30 years there is not one shred of evidence. The fraud is author Donal Foley who claims the six children secretly taught themselves to go into meditative “trances” to fool the doctors and scientists.. Read it it his book .I have .  Please the next time somebody calls Med a hoax do me a favor and provide your evidence not childish sherlock holmes deductive reasoning like “It must be a fraud because Ivan drives a car and his wife is pretty”

The first time I had any contact with something from Medjugorje was when someone gave me a blessed rosary from there. She didn’t say where the rosary had come from, only that it had been to a sacred site and that it had been blessed by a priest there. She put that metal rosary into my hands and it literally made me want to take my hand away and vomit it was so foul. When I asked her where she got it from and she told me I looked Medjugorje up and read about what was happening there. The more I read the more I got a sense that something truly negative was happening there, and no, I wasn’t actually reading a debunking site.

I’m sorry I know how badly some people want to believe that only good is coming out of that place but I just don’t see that myself. I don’t trust the place, it’s seers or it’s message at all, and for the record I have never had that kind of reaction to any pilgrimage site or items from one before, not to Lourdes, not to Fatima, not Knock, not anyplace else, and I had absolutely no reason to feel that way even before I even knew much about the place.

I’ve had some really bad dreams since that night, horrible dreams about that supposedly “holy” site. Dreams of that Lady with a grinning demon’s face superimposed over her normal one. Dreams of rotting fruit, flies, and maggots. Bad dreams of people there too. I actually dreamed of the grave, of mass murder, of people becoming corpses, and fields running with blood under them. Every dream I have ever had of this shrine has been downright unholy in scope. I’m talking major nightmares here….

I have a shelf with statues of various Madonnas and I love them all dearly, but I don’t think I’d ever want anything from Medjugorje on that shelf. That place really unsettles me and I don’t want anything to do for it. I’d gladly take a trip to Lourdes or wherever, but Medjugorje?  No, I don’t think even an all expenses paid trip would persuade me to do that, not ever.

I’ll leave it for each individual to make their own decision on the place. It’s not for me to decide how someone else perceives it, but that’s what effect items from the place have had on me, personally. Doing a little research on the place I understand that like many parts of that country it has a violent past. Maybe that’s all I am picking up on, but i honestly don’t think so…

Our Blessed Mother is coming to us because her Son permits so.  Instead of calling it “HOAX” and wasting your time given to us,  pl. pray and ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten you, because “abandoning The Mother(who is a great gift to us from GOD) is but one step from abandoning The SON.“Jesus will not take this lightly on your judgement day. Stop fooling yourself. The END TIMES are happening around us, each one save your own soul first. Wake up.

Dear Rose,

I appreciate your concern, however, fear not.  The world has been living the end times since Jesus’ death and resurrection.  Mary, the Mother of God is with us always and everywhere as well as her Son Jesus.  No one need fly to Herzegovina to find Them.  One only need to live a sacramental life of prayer as prescribed in scripture and our Church.  It’s as close as your local parish, please consult your local parish priest.

With all due respect, you have to have the confidence within yourself to know when you have had a spiritual experience…I would hardly wait for some higher authority to ‘tell me’ if what I am seeing/experiencing is real, or not.

Do you really think that any of us who have had experiences at Medjugorje or anywhere else are going to ‘UN-experience” it, just because some elected authority figure says it wasn’t real?  I think that is ridiculous. 

And really, isn’t all this about growing one’s faith and having a personal relationship with Jesus and the Blessed Virgin? 

What these authority figures are saying is that our own personal spiritual experiences are only ‘real,’ if they ‘allow’ it or if they ‘say’ its real.  I beg to differ.  How do THEY know if I have had a genuine experience or not? 

I am guessing that, if the Church ( whom I actually love, btw, sorry to sound so angry right now ) deems Medjugorje ‘inadmissable’ or whatever, that most people won’t stop going or believing at all!

They have to understand that not all spiritual experiences are able to be put under a microscope. 

As far as people being ‘heartbroken,’ if the Church says Med. is not the place of visions, please!  Think for yourself, people !

Deoacveritati…nobody’s going to read all of that.

Combox rule #1: your comment shouldn’t be longer than the original article.

Combox rule #2: your comment shouldn’t be a rambling manifesto with “satan’s master plan” in all caps…it’s just weird.

People will believe in anything as long as it’s sugar coated. Post vatican ii results have left millions of catholics feeling like some lost sheep in many cases looking and searching for something to replace what they lost or were never taught in the first place. It must be comforting for those desperate enough that Medj. after 30 years appeals to that kind of emotionalism. Millions of catholics had left in droves to find some form of protestantism that appeals to them , esp. in South America, where this religious high could be found in some other faith. I liken Medj. as that step to a panreligious world church that embraces most if not all those faiths.

To John and THERESE60640 if you don’t want to read the article don’t read it but stop complaining about it.

I didn’t write the article and I am only sharing it and I don’t follow combox rules period.

Now let’s get to the crux of the mattter: I believe Medjugorje is a DECEPTION from the devil and those who want to continue beliving in it go right ahead, but those who need to read more about it, or who already don’t believe in Medjugorje I hope they will find it informative.

One more thing I don’t agree with the last line in the original article by Pat Archbold “We have waited thirty years already, why not wait another thirty?”

Well for the simple reason that if we wait another 30 years many souls could end up in hell by believing a lie from the devil.

Ask yourselves this how is it possible that the Blessed Mother is appearing to this visionaries practically at will?? and anywhere??? What is so special about these visionaries that in centuries of Marian apparitions the Blessed Mother appears to them for their birthdays and wherever they are and even says she would take one of them out and pay for her meal. What?????
This madona sounds very mundane.

How can she be appearing for over 30 years with over 40.000 messages and still no secrets revealed??? No signs that prove she is from heaven.
The madona in the Medjugorje affair seems to be visiting with the visionaries as Ivan says ““Many people ask me if Our Lady has ever talked about the second coming of Jesus?” he said. “No. Has Our Lady talked about the end of the world? No. Our Lady hasn’t come because of that. So many ask, what does Our Lady say? What do you talk, with her every day? We talk a lot. And believe me, if we had 24 hours, we would miss some minutes.” What is the Madona socializing then?? If is not about the end the world why is he here??? the so call warning?? como on people.

Conversions??? well how could it be with all of these conversions hapenning we seem to be having a world that is more evil and corrupt?

One more thing people go to YouTube and watch:Ri¢hie Ri¢h Kids of Medjugorje ?How to Be Millionaires through fake ecstasies?

Vicka claims in this video after Jean Louis Martin caught her on her false ecstasy that she was under the impression the child Jesus was
going to slip from the Blessed Mother’s arms.
How can people believe this liar???  Can you truly believe that the Blessed Mother would drop Our Lord???
Then go watch “Medjugorje senza maschera. “Giustificazione” di Vicka”

Die hard believers of Medjugorje attack me all you want but the Good Lord knows my intentions are pure. I believe Medjugorje is false.

to Deoacveritati

You’r analysis is more Sherlock Holmes jibberish. (“too many messages!”, Ivan drives a car etc.)
You still have not answered or revealed to us how the six seers who live in a fishbowl and their families and thier entourages and their “spiritual advisers”  and the Franciscan “inventors” and conspirators have kept it (the hoax) all a secret from you for thirty years.  The reality is they “See what they see”  and they say they see and talk to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Ryan believe what you will.
I will keep my analysis and my jibberich.
You put downs equal your stupidity.
Allow me to quote you “It must be a fraud because Ivan drives a car and his wife is pretty”

This is your ridiculous reasoning.
You miss the point, true saints or holy people or past visionaries were not as materialistic as these fake visionaries.
Money and the material or so it seems in case of Ivan has an important role in their lives, while the authentic visionaries like St. Bernadette and Lucia etc lived a life of humility, poverty by abandoning the world and entering religious life.
Those who have truly received the grace to see Our Lord and Our Blessed Mother, seem to detached themselves from the world because they’ve come to realized that this world is an impediment to their closeness to God, the material stops having much meaning to them.
Read the lives of the saints and you will see the difference. Also watch the movie the 13th day somewher in the movie the children seem to want to be left alone or escape the world, they have seen the divine.
Cars and models, trips and material things have no role in their lives.
Now watch Ivan Youtube:Medjugorje senza maschera. Intervista Ivan
Come on ryan stop taking the side of the devil.

Five Points for Medjugorje  

1. Bishop Peric is the present Bishop of the diocese of Mostar in which Medjugorje is located. He declared that the revelations of Medjugorje were not supernatural. However, in 1998 the Vatican said that Bishop Peric’s comments are only his “personal opinion.” They are not authoritative.
2. The Yugoslavian Bishops’ Conference’s made a judgment on April 10, 1991 that “it cannot be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations.” That is a neutral and not a negative judgment which could have but was not made, such as “nothing supernatural occurred.” This Commission no longer exists and on March 17, 2010 the Vatican assumed jurisdiction over any judgment on Medjugorje.
3. The Medjugorje revelations now are neither approved or disapproved by the Church. Everyone is free to believe or not to believe in the apparitions, requests and secrets of Medjugorje.
4. Even if you don’t believe, you should respond to the Medjugorje requests of conversion and faith maintained by prayer and fasting with the fruit of peace, since these requests are consistent with the Gospel preaching of Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Catholic faith for everyone.
5. Everyone should prepare themselves for the ten secrets and the sign of Medjugorje by following Our Lady’s requests at Medjugorje. She gave a sign and three secrets at Fatima. Blessed Pope John Paul II said that Medjugorje “is the completion of Fatima.”
To learn more how to prepare for Our Lady’s warnings and her ten secrets read here:
http://jkmi.com/aspdotnet/p-118-secrets-of-the-blessed-virgin-mary.aspx

to Deoacveritati

Did you ever for a moment stop and think that the “modern” catholic lifestyle the visionaries live is precisely why Medjugorje has been such a phenomenon. The visionaries have families, they laugh , they cry, they probably fight with their spouses they drive cars,. The visionaries provide an extraordinary example of how to live close to God. They show us how o live a good Catholic life in the 21st century. Perhaps it is Our Lady;s plan.

So much fodder so little time!

@Deoacveritati - I read the whole article you posted and found it enlightening, informative and most instructive.  Don’t worry about the Sherlock Holmes cracks.  It’s quite a compliment actually, if more people followed Sherlock’s examples of discernment, critical thinking and reasoning this whole thing might not be such a mess.  Is it any wonder critics of Medj questioner’s dislike Sherlock as well?

@TJf - you statement ‘I would hardly wait for some higher authority to ‘tell me’ if what I am seeing/experiencing is real, or not,’ speaks volumes.  Do you really love our Church and what it teaches or do you love more Medj?  What kind of protestant cafeteria catholic conversions does your statement and other ‘Medj converts’ truly exemplify?  What kind of ‘conversions’ is Medj actually producing?

@Ryan - The Catholic Church is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.  Thank you for pointing out that the sleepy little hamlet of Medj was largely unaffected by the errors of ‘modernism’ until after the events began.  Furthermore, it occurs to me if Medj is deemed unworthy of belief by the Church, which in my opinion it already has, what would become of it’s economy?  How many countries and peoples would be negatively effected if this tidy little pilgrimage cottage industry all of a sudden came to an end?

Typical Med skeptic logic - Ok to condemn and ridicule millions of catholics as simple minded seekers of “signs” an call without any evidence Medjuorje a hoax and a fraud.  Then cry out in pain because somebody tries to push back on the bully.

By the way the point about Sherlock stands “discernment, critical thinking and reasoning this whole thing might not be such a mess” ‘That’s the problem. “Critical thinking and reasoning” is a long way from revealing with evidence the fraud. Bring us the goods and the whole thing goes away - but you won’t because you can’t and millions of people, believe it not some smarter the you, have used critical thinking to accept medjugorje

@ ryan on Sunday, Jul 31, 2011 8:23 AM (EDT)Our lady, in step with the spirit of the second Vatican council, has shown us through her servants the visionaries that living a comfortable middle class life is perfectly compatible with a vocation to channel her messages to the modern world.

secrets, secrets and more secrets. Why is everything always a secret.  i am doubful about this. Never facts. Just secrets.

Hey Joe .. Most sedavacantists and SSPX traditionalist “Catholics” are generally not found of medjugorje. But then the Holy Mother church is not fond of them either.

<b>@ ryan on Sunday, Jul 31, 2011 12:02 PM (EDT)<b> Persecution is also a sign. The authorities of the day persecuted Jesus too, some actively, while some took a wait-and-see attitude.

@Ryan

I have to disagree with your statement ‘“Critical thinking and reasoning” is a long way from revealing with evidence the fraud.’  As a matter of fact I hear no truth at all in what you say.  It sounds to me that you are promoting the idea that by faith alone we are saved?  This is the thoroughly protestant error of ‘sola fide.’  This idea is incompatible with Catholicism and something Mary, The Mother of God would never promote or teach.

If you would like learn more of the Catholic world view of Faith and Reason, Blessed Pope John Paul II wrote and excellent encyclical titled Fides et Ratio which begins by saying:

“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves” (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).

You can read more at:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

ryan said: “Please the next time somebody calls Med a hoax do me a favor and provide your evidence not childish sherlock holmes deductive reasoning.”

The Church was built on the blood and bones of the martyrs. When Vicka says that Our Lady is not calling people to become Catholics, but that, “[T]he Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son.” (“The Visions of the Children,” Janice T. Connell, St. Martin’s Press, pg. 119.) One is left with a feeling of indifferentism towards the Catholic faith. The martyrs’ blood: Those who sacrificed all to teach the True Faith, and “convert all nations” becomes irrelevant.

The “Gospa” (e.g. evil spirit) also said, “The Muslims and the Orthodox, for the same reason as Catholics, are all equal before my Son and me.”

That’s heresy, plain and simple.

I believe in every Church approved apparition.  Akita is a modern Church approved apparition.  Garabandal may be one someday, too (the the Church would never pronounce on it until the “Great Sign” appears.)  I was converted to the Faith because of Lourdes.  So, I love our Lady deeply; but I want to love her as she is, not a the demon-imposter “Gospa” who is appearing at Medjugorje (an apparition I used to believe in).  Divine Revelation stopped the moment St. John penned the last word of the book of Revelation, so when the “Gospa” contradicts divine revelation, as the two quotes, supra, certainly do, we can know, ipso facto, that the “Gospa” is a demonic fraud.  Though, I will say that I don’t think the “visionaries” are lying; they too are being deceived.

I, like Marghretto, am tired of hearing Medjugorje followers claim that the fruits of the apparition are conversion.

If one converts to Jesus but is not humble, like Jesus is, this person has not bared any fruit. 
If one converts to Jesus but is not charitable, this person has not bared any fruits.
If one converts to Jesus but does not love with all of his/her heart ,as Jesus loved us all, this person has not bared any fruits.

Jesus Christ is the Tree of life which gives Fruits.  Those who accept Him, and follow in His footsteps will yield those fruits that He gives.
Thereby the converts attach themselves to the Tree of Life and become the branches.  The branches are those who do and live as Jesus did.  Eventually, the branches that stay on the Tree of Life will produce good fruits, the good fruits that Jesus gives.

Peace,
Maria

Below is what I wrote of the phenomena a couple years back, wherein I got some nasty-grams from pro-Med folks.  Well, we’re all Catholics, whether pro-Med or not.  I think the pro-Med camp (of which I was one) genuinely love Our Lady, and want to believe she is appearing there because it brings them hope.  The Church needs to put a stop to it (it already technically has, with two Bishops deciding against it; in the past, even one Bishop from the diocese would have been enough), because, otherwise, the Church is going to be even more eroded when She finally declares against it, and millions of souls continue following the “Gospa” rather than the Church (even Bayside still has devotees).

http://hospitallers.blogspot.com/2009/09/medjugorje-divine-intervention-or.html

Good posts Malta. I thought the following is apropos to those who chase apparitions, particularly the lacking in holy fear I sense in Medj.:

“...the devil causes many to believe in vain visions and false prophecies; and strives to make them presume that God and the saints are speaking with them; and they often trust their own fancy. And the devil is also accustomed, in this state, to fill them with presumption and pride, so that they become attracted by vanity and arrogance, and allow themselves to be seen engaging in outward acts which appear holy, such as raptures and other manifestations. Thus they become bold with God, and lose holy fear, which is the key and the custodian of all the virtues; and in some of these souls so many are the falsehoods and deceits which tend to multiply, and so inveterate do they grow, that it is very doubtful if such souls will return to the pure road of virtue and true spirituality.”
St. John of the Cross
DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (2.2:3)...

Good posts Malta. I thought the following is apropos to those who chase apparitions, particularly the lacking in holy fear I sense in Medj.:

“...the devil causes many to believe in vain visions and false prophecies; and strives to make them presume that God and the saints are speaking with them; and they often trust their own fancy. And the devil is also accustomed, in this state, to fill them with presumption and pride, so that they become attracted by vanity and arrogance, and allow themselves to be seen engaging in outward acts which appear holy, such as raptures and other manifestations. Thus they become bold with God, and lose holy fear, which is the key and the custodian of all the virtues; and in some of these souls so many are the falsehoods and deceits which tend to multiply, and so inveterate do they grow, that it is very doubtful if such souls will return to the pure road of virtue and true spirituality.”
St. John of the Cross

Good posts Malta. I thought the following is apropos to those who chase apparitions, particularly the lacking in holy fear I sense in Medj.

“...the devil causes many to believe in vain visions and false prophecies; and strives to make them presume that God and the saints are speaking with them; and they often trust their own fancy. And the devil is also accustomed, in this state, to fill them with presumption and pride, so that they become attracted by vanity and arrogance, and allow themselves to be seen engaging in outward acts which appear holy, such as raptures and other manifestations. Thus they become bold with God, and lose holy fear, which is the key and the custodian of all the virtues; and in some of these souls so many are the falsehoods and deceits which tend to multiply, and so inveterate do they grow, that it is very doubtful if such souls will return to the pure road of virtue and true spirituality.”
St. John of the Cross

Trust in God and it will work out. I think some are getting too emotional about this.

we just published an article written by Danial Kilmek a graduate of Yale and who is now pursuing is Phd at Catholic University.

It is a serious and detailed response to Donal Foly’s medjugorje revisited book. I don;t usually like to link to my site but I thought it would be worth doing given the interest in the subject and that the article timely. If Pat Archbold would like to link/comment even better.

Medjugorje Revisited: Donal Foley’s Conspiracy Theory Disproven by Eminent Doctor and Historical Evidence

http://ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1479&Itemid=214

ministryvalues.com?  I would sooner consult Spiritdaily.com but that’s not likely to happen either.

ryan, you posted a link by ministryvalues which doesn’t address the underlying problem of Medjugorje: how is the “Gospa” able to promate heresy, and still be the Mother of God (see my earlier posts)?

to dismas
why don;t you just read the article.. perhaps you have a habit of coming to conclusions with out looking into both sides. We take this stuff seriouly. i have spent hours listening and speaking and trying to understand the doubters side.

http://ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1479&Itemid=125

I visited Medj. in November of 1987 without any preconceived notions as to its authenticity. I had seen a BBC tape previously of some journalists who had traveled there and, since I later happened to be in Europe, I thought why not detour down to see for myself what was going on in this remote Communist village near the beautiful Dalmatian coast? Long story short, there were a handful of us “tourists” in town, everywhere you looked, people were fairly poor and chickens were running around in the yards. At the time, we “talked” (through an interpreter) to Vicka and Maria and they were as sincere as the day was long. As an ex-prosecutor, I can tell you that their stories rang true and I saw no outward sign that anyone was making any money or gaining fame for these claimed visions. On the contrary, this village was still under Communist rule at the time. Medj has definitely woken this attorney up to stand up for her faith and I have paid a dear price for doing this with my legal career over the years(writing against assisted suicide, being pro-life, etc)I went back to Medj in 1998 as the genocide was winding down and the town had really grown up by then but the experience was as genuine as ever. By the way, this is a tobacco town and Ivanka and Mirjana were indeed out “having a smoke” that afternoon of June 24, 1981, but they were not “caught and made up some story” as someone here commented(how absurd, what a lame excuse that would be, anyway!)Rather, they saw in the distance a beautiful woman in white who beckoned them to come closer and appeared to be holding a young child. Cradle Catholics need a kick in the rear end to make their faith real and if it takes Mary appearing for us to wake up, I, for one, am grateful for the warning. One look into Vicka’s shining face and sincere brown eyes tells you all you need to know about the truth of the situation.

I have never been to Medjugorje, but I have had the privilege of being near a visionary from Medjugorje during an apparition when she was at Caritas of Birmingham, Alabama.  I myself witnessed the “miracle of the sun” with my own eyes just one hour before apparition began. A girl had yelled out, “Look at the sun!  Look at the sun!”  Many people there out of the field saw it.  It must have lasted for at least five minutes.  It was spinning very fast, then it began to pulsate like a throbbing heart, then the thin red circle that was around it enlarge in size like a red glow around the sun; that red glow decreased and increased in size.  I know in my heart that God the Father was letting us know that this is real and authentic.  Almighty God was confirming the apparitions and announcing the coming of the Blessed Mother.  He is allowing Her to come to warn us and so that many people will convert to Jesus before the time of judgment.  That is what I believe.  Please read the messages of Our Lady of Medjugorje with an open heart and pray, pray, pray, as She says.  Follow Her messages by praying the Rosary, reading the Bible, confession, and attending Holy Mass as often as possible.  Let the Holy Mass be your life, and, of course, trying to living the Gospel message.

Good posts Malta. I thought the following is apropos to those who chase apparitions, particularly the lacking in holy fear I sense in Medj.
“...the devil causes many to believe in vain visions and false prophecies; and strives to make them presume that God and the saints are speaking with them; and they often trust their own fancy. And the devil is also accustomed, in this state, to fill them with presumption and pride, so that they become attracted by vanity and arrogance, and allow themselves to be seen engaging in outward acts which appear holy, such as raptures and other manifestations. Thus they become bold with God, and lose holy fear, which is the key and the custodian of all the virtues; and in some of these souls so many are the falsehoods and deceits which tend to multiply, and so inveterate do they grow, that it is very doubtful if such souls will return to the pure road of virtue and true spirituality.”
St. John of the Cross

@Ryan,

Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t ministryvalues directly benefit from revenues generated in involvement and promotion of the medj pilgrimage industry?  Doesn’t spiritdaily also benefit not only from involvement in the medj pilgrimage industry but also the promotion of other false apparitions?  Thanks, but no thanks.

And Jesus said to him: Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou, and preach the kingdom of God. Luke 9:60

Some of these negative comments and outright attacks against Medjugorje are filled with error. For that reason I feel compelled to respond to some of them.  AT NO TIME has Medjugorje ever been offlimits to pilgrims. It is well documented that Blessed John Paul 11 kept a close eye on the events in Medjugorje and it has been confirmed by sources close to the late Holy Father that he believed in Medjugorje and encouraged people to go there.
It is also a fact that Sister Lucia, {the last surving Visionary of Fatima) has been quoted as saying that,“The Apparitions at Medjugorje are the fulfillment of the Prophecies of Fatima.
Noteworthy also is that Our Lady has mentioned only Fatima out of all the earlier Church Approved Apparitions.
In regards to some of the Messages being repitious: who could be surprised?
Over and over again The Blessed Mother begs us to pray, pray pray! Also to fast and do penance. To make sincere confessions at leat monthly, attend Holy Mass as often as possible and pray The Holy Rosary daily.
All Messages are in full harmony with Sacred Scripture which The Holy Virgin repeatedly asks us to read daily.
The greatest fruits continue to come to the world through this Holy Place.
Ever increasing numbers of young men find their calling to the priesthood there.  Millions return home from all around the world with their faith deepened: many healed in Spirit, body and soul.
To date some 40 million people have made the pilgrimage there and the vast majority of us are firm believers.
There is NOTHING and I repeat;NOTHING against Sacred Scripture and NOTHING Anit-Magisterial in Medjugorje.
For those who go to Medjugorje earnestly seeking Truth and the deepening of their faith there is never disappointment.
It is also worthy of note that the most vicious attackers of Medjugorje have never been there!!!
A great many others join this noisy cacophony of criticism hoping against Hope that Medjugorje will just go away.  Many are they who know full well that Medjugorje and,” Cafateria,lukewarm,disobedient to The Holy Father” type Catholicism does not belong alongside the intense and repeated calls for conversion coming from Medjugorje for the past 30 years.
It is precisely because of The Great Apostacy of our times that Blessed Mother has come and for the same reasons She needs to keep repeating the age old remedies that Holy Mother Church has always taught.
Her deaf and blind children still refuse to see the,“Signs of the Times”.
All of us need to change and as The Most Loving Of Mothers, She hopes to bring as many to God as possible.
For those who have no desire to change their lifestyles or seek a deeper Spiritual life ;or any Spiritual life for that matter: Medjugorje is sure to be a huge thorn in their sides, and a sound reason to rail against it.
The Commision does have a huge task but since all THE MESSAGES ARE KNOWN-BAR THE 10 SECRETS-AND ALL THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE SUPPORTS THE VISIONARIES’ AUTHENTICITY ther is NO doubt in my mind and in the mind of multi millions of others across the globe that Medjugorje will be approved.
As for the Bishop, who at first was an ardent supporter of Medjugorje, (and to whom the parish of Medjugorje was obedient) let us pray for him.
In tme a full disclosure of the facts surrounding why he became so anti-Medjugorje will be revealed.
May Our Blessed Lady of Medjugorje, Queen of Peace pray for all of us.

to dismas

I work as a investment adviser. Ministryvalues.com is something I care a lot about and spend WAY to much time on. I could cut lawns and make five times what I have made with ministryvalues.com   I find medjugorje THE most interesting story in religion today and I have felt that way for three years now.  I am glad to see more Catholic bloggers finally start sitting up and paying attention. ( the views to this article attest to that)  The author of this article used to refer to medjugorje as the “M” word and refused to even mention the topic. Ministryvalues.com has been on this incredible event for the sometime now. No matter where one stands on authenticity Medugorje, is incredibly interesting and incredibly important.

@everyone regarding the cult of Caritas of Alabama:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/caritas.html

Articles can also be found on the EWTN Web Site by searching Caritas of Alabama:

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=601958&Pg=Forum13&Pgnu=1&recnu=4

I should also be mentioned that the Christopher Cardinal Schonborn, the Archbishop of Vienna, Austria allowed the visionary, Marija Lunetti, to experience an apparition there at his cathedral in Austria.  Not long after that, he visited Medjugorje himself for several days and talked about the fruits and spirituality that he witnessed.  It was all posted on the official medjugorje.net website:  http://www.medjugorje.net/content/view/405/

After many years of this still ongoing, I had begun to doubt its authenticity, but not any more after having visited Caritas of Birmingham last March 2011 and seeing the miracle of the sun with my own eyes.  Only God the Father, Creator of the Universe, could make that happen, the miracle of the sun spinning and pulsating with a red glow around it less than an hour before the apparition occurred there on the field at Caritas (Sterrett, Alabama) when Marija Lunetti was visiting there.  There is no way that the miracle of the sun could be a hoax and hundreds of people saw it at the same time as me.  This is real.  Please pay attention and heed Our Lady’s messages.  She has come to prepare us for something that is going to be huge.  Please pray, fast, and do penance in reparation for the sins of the world.

@ryan

Am I to assume from your lack of response to my questions that I am correct?  What you do for a living is really of no interest to me.

Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t ministryvalues directly benefit from revenues generated in involvement and promotion of the medj pilgrimage industry?  Doesn’t spiritdaily also benefit not only from involvement in the medj pilgrimage industry but also the promotion of other false apparitions?

Dimas, Well said:
“Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t ministryvalues directly benefit from revenues generated in involvement and promotion of the medj pilgrimage industry?  Doesn’t spiritdaily also benefit not only from involvement in the medj pilgrimage industry but also the promotion of other false apparitions?”

One of my problems with Spiritdaily as well.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/medjugorje-revealed/#ixzz1TkEjpa4h

I have travelled to Medjugorje on Pilgrimage 5 times in the past 21 year since 1990. I have Master’s Degree in Theology and have studied these Appartions since 1985. Catholic Teaching always makes it clear that No one Catholic or, otherwise is required to believe in any private Revelation, Revelation, ended with the death of the last Apostle. However, who are we to tell God’s who he sends as his Messenger. In my Opinion,I beleive Our Lady is Apperaing in Medjugorje and in due time the apparitions will receive approval from Holy Mother Church. However, it may take many more years. In the Meantime, let us remember the words of Jesus who himself said” “Bu their Furits you shall know them. A Bad Tree Cannot Bear Good Fruit and a Good Tree cannot bear Bad Fruit. Let go and Let God.
Sincerely,
Jim Greene, M.A.
PS: The biggest reason for me and my belief in the Medjugorje Apparitions becaue I have yet to meet a ten year old in my 20 yrs of Ministry who could stay still and pray for 3 minutes, no less 3 hours and who would stand up and say to the Police or Authorities “I am ready to die for this Testimony in the Truith of The Gospa’s Visits to Medjugorje. Just sayin!

What’s the deal with the secret-disclosure system? How is it supposed to work? Do all six seers have the same set of ten, or are there 60 secrets in all? Are the seers supposed to tell the Vatican what they are ahead of time? What kind of secrets are they? Are they predictions of natural disasters such as “there will be a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico in the next 100 years”, or are they of specific historical events like “the Soviet Union will break up”? Are they vague like “there will be a sign in the sky” or specific like “a comet will hit Jupiter in July 1994”?

Medjugorje is the greatest apparition in the history of the Church. I and 30 million others regained our faith there. Everyone should make the effort to visit. The intensity of prayer is quite wonderful. Not to mention the jaw-dropping solar phenomena, miraculous photos and rosaries turning gold. How anyone can say Medjugorje “is obviously a hoax” is beyond me! Our poor Blessed Mother is making such an effort to save her children.  It’s been 30 years now and there are still so many doubters who say “apparitions are not necessary”! Apparitions are for us sinners! Medjugorje touches the heart!! Go and see for yourselves!!!

Pat Xavier

the devil causes many to believe in vain visionsand false prophecies; and strives to make them presumethat God and the saints are speaking with them; and they often trust their own fancy. And the devil is also accustomed, in this state, to fill them with presumption and pride, so that they become attracted by vanity and arrogance, and allow themselves to be seen engaging in outward acts which appear holy, such as raptures and other manifestations. Thus they become bold with God, and lose holy fear, which is the key and the custodian of all the virtues; and in some of these souls so many are the falsehoods and deceits which tend to multiply, and so inveterate do they grow, that it is very doubtful if such souls will return to the pure road of virtue and true spirituality.
St. John of the Cross

to dismas,

to dismas
i will correct you and you are wrong. I do not financially benefit directly from medjugorje.  My relationship with Medjugorje has benefited me greatly spiritually and has cost me dearly financially. (ask my wife) That is just a fact .  If the American Catholic press and its bloggers would cover Medjugorje with substance, intellectual curiosity, and recognise the impact the events are having on decent Catholics around the world I would not feel so compelled to sound off (I think spirit daily would feel the same way)

What is interesting Mr. Dismas, (i know that is not your name) is now after the ABC special on medjugorje and the subject matter of this article you may understand why ministryvalues.com and spirit daily have spent time on this event .. It is only now that the Catholic world is beginning to see the importance of the events that we have been seeing for years as have countless other devout catholics have as well. Stay tuned Mr. Dismas and open your mind and heart

“...the devil causes many to believe in vain visions and false prophecies; and strives to make them presume that God and the saints are speaking with them; and they often trust their own fancy. And the devil is also accustomed, in this state, to fill them with presumption and pride, so that they become attracted by vanity and arrogance, and allow themselves to be seen engaging in outward acts which appear holy, such as raptures and other manifestations. Thus they become bold with God, and lose holy fear, which is the key and the custodian of all the virtues; and in some of these souls so many are the falsehoods and deceits which tend to multiply, and so inveterate do they grow, that it is very doubtful if such souls will return to the pure road of virtue and true spirituality.  St. John of the Cross

For all those who think the Bishop of Mostar should be the final word on medjugorje please read the article that creative minority posted today about the Gay Cabal of priests in Miami led by the Archbishop. Bishops are not infallible. 

http://gawker.com/5825254/the-catholic-churchs-secret-gay-cabal

The article is disturbing and graphic ...

after reading the article about the lavish lifestyles of the gay priests perhaps the modest lifestyles of the visionaries may seem downright quaint and humbly devout in comparison

@ryan -

Our Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.  If any one of these marks are missing so are the others.  I have to question the Apostolic mark.  Many adherents of Medj are not only disobedient to the local Bishops, adherents treat the Bishops with contempt.  If these marks are missing what is medj really creating?

This brings me to another important question.  To which Bishop does ministryvalues and spiritdaily profess loyalty to, or are they under their own authority as well?

“I visited Medjugorje about 20 years ago. I went there a perfectly self-satisfied and miserable atheist and left reconverted to the faith.  I am willing to entertain the possibility that apparitions are not true.  Such a ruling by the Church would not destroy my faith.” - Michael Cummings
****
The reason that I think Pat Archbold is wrong in this case, that the best policy would be to let the next 30 years play out, is the very question that Michael Cummings statement raises.  His faith is in Christ, but if the Vatican commission does rule against Medj, how many will not be like Michael Cummings, but will fall away because their faith is in the apparition rather than in Christ and the Church to which he gave his authority. 
That is one way of testing the “fruits” is it not?  If the fruits are genuine, than a negative ruling on Medj would destroy nobody’s faith, or at least very few.  And as others have pointed out, it would indeed be a test of obedience.
If the apparitions are a deception, the longer they go on without the Vatican’s definitive ruling, the more people will be deceived, and the more emotionally anchored will be those who already are wedded to the phenomenon.

I belong to the diocese of arlington virginia . my parish is St. Louis parish in Alexandria va. Our Lady asks us to pray for our priests and I do. By the way you promote the same silliness that so many doubters espouse.

Please hear this -  There is NO contempt towards the Bishop of Mostar. Please stop it with that. I take the position of the Church which is, “Holy, Catholic and Apostolic” and that position is that Vatican has authority regarding medjugorje and has set up a commission to rule on Medjugorje .. I urge you to be in obedience with the Church on this important matter and stop with your incorrect evangelicalism against an important Catholic matter simply because of your own personal beliefs

Fatima wasn’t approved until 1930. So what did people believe for thirteen years? - Someone made a comparison between Bayside and Medjugorje. The Bayside “seer” seems like she had more problems than a personality disorder going on. Her book is absurd. The Blessed Mother’s messages are all theologically accurate. Look at some of the long messsages from ‘88 and ‘89. No fraud could have produced those messages. Are the naysayers subconsciously creating an elaborate excuse to not fast on wednesday and friday? Get a bread machine. It isn’t that hard.. you wusses.

I just wonder how would the world behave when the lawless man (who pretends to be a peacemaker)begins to do signs and wonders if todays world is easily falling into signs and wonders without waiting for the safe results of the “test"from the Church?

What would happen then?  The Gospel says that people will fall “even the elect”.

Peace,
Maria

@Ryan

Private revelation does not belong to the deposit of Faith and is not required for belief.  My disbelief in no way puts me in opposition to or in disobedience of any guidance from any Bishop in our Church regarding this matter. To the contrary, however, both ministryvalues and spiritdaily appear to have been or continue to be in disobedience to past guidance from our Bishops and Canons of our Church. 

My question of obedience and apostolicity in this matter is valid and I won’t be silenced by you.

@dismas..that you evangelize the notion that the Bishop of Mostar has been condemned by those who look at the events at medjugorje with an open mind is in disobedience to the position of the Catholic church.  And just what do you mean by “disobedience to past Guidance from our Bishops” Is not CURRENT Church guidance more relevant?  I think you are really confused on the official Church position.

@ Jim Parent on Monday, Aug 1, 2011 10:23 AM (EDT) I just now read for the first time the monthly messages from 1988-1989. Those 24 paragraphs are some of the most tedious stream-of-consciousness garbage I have ever read. Apart from the Catholic-style vocabulary, it sounds exactly like those “channelers” who were popular during the 1980s. I cannot believe people actually fall for this.

@ryan

If you seek to silence me, then by all means enlighten me.  Provide documentation that invalidates any guidance previously given by the Bishops of Mostar to date.

@dismas

I am sure you know the Vatican has formed a commission to investigate and rule on the authenticity of the events taking place there.

here is but one article .. but just google “Medjugorje Vatican commission” and see for yourself

http://www.zenit.org/article-28677?l=english

A.M.D.G.

We must always think with the Church on these matters.  Remember that even if the Church says one day that these alleged visions do not contradict the sacred deposit of faith, we do not have to give them the divine and Catholic faith we have to assent to regarding divine revelation.  We must go to Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation (unless we have a valid reason not to like illness).  We must follow the Church’s teaching that contraception, fornication and pornography are evil.  We must believe in all of the Church’s Marian doctrines, etc. etc.  Those things will never change.

We do not have to believe in the visions that have been approved like Our Lady of Knock (I’ve been there), Our Lady of Lourdes or Our Lady of Fatima.  There is a danger of a “spiritual sweet tooth” that develops when people constantly seek special signs of visions from God to confirm the Catholic faith.  I’m not saying that has taken place with everyone who is excited about Medjugorje, but it certainly has with some folks.  We’ve seen it in disobedience to the local bishops for sure (again, not by all).

My parish priest here in the U.S. is a very holy man.  He is visiting his native Croatia right now and will be visiting Medjugorje.  He thinks it is authentic but always makes a point to say it has not been approved by the Vaticcan and he cannot lead a pilgrimmage there.

Ryan, thanks for the link, however I asked for
“documentation that invalidates any guidance previously given by the Bishops of Mostar to date,” not for a news of a commission.

@dismas
i was pretty sure that would be your response.. you are not the first to play that game.  The Vatican has said two things
1. The bishop’s opinion on the events at medjugorje are his personal opinion.

2. The Vatican has formed a commission that will decide the authenticity of the events.  There is no such thing as a document that “invalidates guidance” It is not how the Church works. But the Vatican does not take its marching orders from the Bishop otherwise the commission would not have been formed

There is no convincing doubters that the new commission formed by the Vatican to investigate and rule on Medjugorje actually means anything.  It is dumbfounding to me why such a simple thing is so difficult to understand for skeptics Did you even read Mr. Archbolds article?
from the article:

“Messori is concerned that no matter what the Vatican commission decides (pro, con, or wait and see) many good Catholics will be very disappointed.
“Whatever will be the decision of the Holy See, the damage will be severe.”

If there is another commission ,now by the Vatican, which is investigating the phenomena in Medjugorje, it could only mean that they are trying to either establish the “Constant of NON authentic”
or to Continue the “Non Constant of authenticity”
because to accept a “Constant of authentic” the Church needs to wait until everything stops. 
Peace,
Maria

“...the devil causes many to believe in vain visions and false prophecies; and strives to make them presume that God and the saints are speaking with them; and they often trust their won fancy. And the devil is also accustomed, in the state, to fill them with presumption and pride, so that they become attracted by vanity and arrogance , and allow themselves to be seen engaging in outward acts which appear holy, such as raptures and other manifestations. Thuse they become bold with God, and lose HOLY FEAR, whcih is the key and the custodian of all the virtues; and some of these souls so many are the falsehoods and deceits which tend to multiply, and so inveterate do they grow, that it is very doubtful if such souls will return to the pure road of virtue and true spirituality.”

St. John of the Cross

E. Michael Jones explains that “Private revelation, by its very nature, always threatens to preempt the authority of the Church. Living by faith is difficult even in the best of times. The danger is that those who are bewildered by confusion in the Church or world at large will… go off seeking solace in signs and wonders, which by definition are always more tangible” (“Untold Story I,” p. 29).

According to Laurent Valkon, “Seeking after visions and revelations and especially being attached to them and building one’s spiritual life upon them is also a form of neo-gnosticism because it is seeking salvation in the knowledge gained in ways essentially outside the order of divine public revelation, of the theological virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity, especially Faith” (Revelations and the Church, quoted in Peter Valde-Magnus’ Private Revelation, p. 12). Valde-Magnus explains that all the guidance we need is “contained in Faith, in Scripture, in the Church’s Teachings and in our own properly enlightened reason… Therefore to place one’s confidence and joy in visions and revelations is to depart from the narrow way of Faith, and those who follow apparitions instead of reason and the Catholic Faith, dogmatically defined by previous Popes and Councils, are falling into the Gnostic temptation of seeking knowledge outside the Will of God” (p. 13).

Those who succumb to such a temptation often find themselves “under the spell of a captivating personality who favors himself a mystic with inside information, and with a “hotlineto heaven” wrote Marlene Moloney, in her Battle for the Mystical Mind. “The blind devotee gives allegiance to a master who he feels has special illumination… and puts him above all other authorities” (quoted in Private Revelation, p. 24).

Fr. Welsh cites Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange?s statement that the desire for revelations is at least a venial sin, even when the soul has a good end in view. Eagerness to hear “what Our Lady said” has turned some apparitions sites into oracles, and “people are frequenting them and turning to them as the surest source on earth for knowing God’s Will. Such pagan practice is unheard of in the history of Christianity. Jesus Christ established a visible Church… Catholics must remain attached, not to oracles as in pagan Romans and Greeks, but to Catholic Rome, the 2000 years of teaching under the Infallible Magisterium established by Jesus Christ.” (Private Revelation, p. 23).

Satan, of course, advances the opposite argument. “Satan can use so-called “apparitions” to seduce pious people who carry in their soul the latent virus of pride… The hidden thought in their souls tells them that Public Revelation is truly for everybody; but they are not just everybody - they are special, chosen souls entitled to special treatment by God….

“Messori is concerned that no matter what the Vatican commission decides (pro, con, or wait and see) many good Catholics will be very disappointed.
“Whatever will be the decision of the Holy See, the damage will be severe.”
****
@ryan
That is a great quote.  It cuts both ways.  So let us consider both possibilities.  If there is a positive affirmation of the messages of the seers of Medj, how many people, good Catholics, are going to be really all that devastated by the fact? 
I, for one, am skeptical of Medj, but were the Holy See to approve it, that fact would not materially, emotionally or spiritually change my life.  As others have pointed out, none of us are obliged to believe in any private revelation for the sake of our salvation anyway.  I could easily remain skeptical, read the signs of the times as declared in public revelation, follow the teachings of the Church and evangelize that message.
But if the reverse were true, that is, if the Holy See declared Medj to be not in conformity with Divine and Catholic faith and thereby warned the faithful to shun it, how would that effect you, ryan?  Could you easily let go?  If you could detach from it, how about among those you know, what would be the reaction by those heavily invested in this ongoing apparition?  Would it be as Messori has warned, severely damaging?
Maria has hit the nail right on the head as well.  At this point there can be only two outcomes of the investigation, neither of which can be approval of the Medj phenomenon, in particular the messages.  It will either be a strong negative or a mild, “so-far-so-good.” 
The reason is simple.  Straight linear logic.  The messages are ongoing, so say for example they study 4000 messages to this point and find no definitive error or heresy.  They still cannot approve because what if message number 4001 comes out tomorrow and is clearly heretical or worse?
So the very fact that the Vatican is investigating should not be taken as a positive sign in my opinion.  In fact, knowing their constraints I would tend to think that it is a negative sign.  Were I a believer in Medj I would be worried that they believe they already have enough evidence to declare it not of Divine and Catholic faith.  And Messori has already given a caution to warn those who are willing to listen.
That is my take on it.

I once asked the late Dominican Father and eminent Mariologist Frederick Jelly, what he thought of Medjugorge: “I wish people would get as excited over the Eucharist.” In our thirst for signs and wonders when our Faith is shaken in troubled times, we overlook what some would call “the old bottom line.” And here it is, as found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

+ + +

God has said everything in his Word

65) “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.” (Vatican II, Dei Verbum, 2) Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2: “In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say ... because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behaviour but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.” (St. John of the Cross, the Ascent of Mount Carmel 2, 22, 3-5 in The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross, tr. K. Kavanaugh OCD and O. Rodriguez OCD [Washington DC: Institute of Carmelite Studies, 1979], 179-180: LH, Advent, week 2, Monday, OR.)

There will be no further Revelation

66) “The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Dei Verbum 4; cf. I Tim 6:14; Titus 2:13) Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

67) Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfilment, as is the case in certain nonChristian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

+ + +

It is unlikely that the above will be overruled by the Blessed Mother any time soon. By the way, John of the Cross also said that any private revelation is to be considered of diabolical origin, until proven otherwise. That is why the Church takes such a cautious approach to such phenomena. Would that others did the same.

I think it is good that the Vatican is continuing its investigation and once it has ruled, the faithful should listen. I’m not certain what is the truth of the matter. I went there on pilgrimage with a youth group years ago and I did not personally experience anything significant (at least not that I could tell). I’m sure there were some who took something away from the experience. I had a friend who had nothing but good things to report from her own pilgrimage BUT I know that it would be better to have an official ruling on the apparition at some point. The Church is our guidance, especially in these difficult days.

I just read that “Our Lady” or whatever “it” was gave “her” approval to a real estate deal of some kind somewhere in the Medjugorje area and that one of the visionaries agreed to have a planned apparition under somebody’s tree here in America. All I have to say is, O My God, This is far seriouser than I thought. St Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle….

@LJ

I have given a lot of consideration to what happens if the apparitions are ruled not authentic and believe when i say i will not be devastated. I am fully prepared and in fact would be utterly surprised if the Pope says from the Window of the Vatican. “Yes Our Lady is here with us at Medjugorje. Accept Her messages” If he did say that it would be the most historic moment in the Catholic Church since the resurrection of Christ. If the Church does not reveal the root of medjugorje and condemns it anyway I will stop writing about Medjugorje but I will not cease my interest in the phenomenon. I have said before whatever is behind Medjugorje (Peace, Peace and only Peace etc) is something good. The entire movement has been a beautifal thing

There has never been a apparition that has had liars as seers

http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2009/10/context-of-the.html

Medj.  Documents.

BTW, when has a seer ever before been forced to take back an account of an apparition?

http://chonak.tripod.com/documents/medj_index.html

Chronology of Med Hoax

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/MedjugorjeHistory.htm

Ryan,
You would have to wait for the whole thing, secrets coming to conclusion etc, to end for a positive declaration on Medjugorje phenomena from the Church. 
But, the apparitions continue and it seems that they will go on for a while and much longer, perhaps even years and years.
peace,
Maria

“I have given a lot of consideration to what happens if the apparitions are ruled not authentic and believe when i say i will not be devastated.”
@ryan
I do not know you personally, but as a fellow Catholic, let me say sincerely I am glad to hear it.
And, I will say that you are right that Medj, as a phenomenon even aside from the faith, is an interesting study.  If it happens that the Church does not recognize this as authentic, the next obvious question is “what is the source?”
Having involved myself in New Age ideas in the past before my conversion, I am inclined now to be skeptical as a rule of thumb.  I wholeheartedly concur with St. Paul where he says to test everything.
However, practically speaking, I find my curiosity piqued by all of this to do more research on the phenomenon as such, and for the simple reason that it could very well assist me in a project I am currently working on.
It also says something about our nature, whether good or bad entirely I am not certain, that there is a certain similarity between the phenomena of seers and apparitions among Catholics; healer-preachers and charismatic prophets mostly among Protestants; and mystics, visionaries, channelers and a wide range of other gurus among the New Agers and Neo-pagans.
It seems we are wired for spirituality, which should be no surprise, but we have a penchant also for eschatology despite ourselves.  How else could a corny series of dispensationalist propaganda like the “Left Behind” books and movies be so successful?
All in all, I am happy to be Catholic with Christ’s assurance that he will not allow the Church to be led astray in matters of faith.

Miguel Reyes wrote on July 30, 2011 6:22pm:  “3) The bishop, during the Yugoslavia civil war, when Mostar, was being bombed, and 100 thousand had been killed, was asked what was the major pastoral problem in their country, and he answered,‘Medjugorje’”.

In defense of the Bishop, I think that he responded as a Shepherd for the flock.  Beacuse the question was about “Pastoral matters” not world
matters such as wars.  Pastoral matters takes care of people’s souls.
In the Gospel Jesus says: Mat.10;28 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather be afraid of God, who can destroy body and soul in hell.”  The bishop was probably worried that people’s soul would be falling into a deceit and could possible end up leaving the Church for something unknown. 

peace,
maria

“I have given a lot of consideration to what happens if the apparitions are ruled not authentic ...”

You might also consider (and this may just be the fault of the wording, beg your pardon) that an apparition is PRESUMED not to be authentic, until determined otherwise. This is a grave misconception among supporters of such phenomena. The Church squarely and consistently places the onus of proof upon the phenomena itself. Whether you love it or leave it, as of right now (and mind the use of that caveat), the apparitions at Medjugorge are not to be considered authentic. In theory, this could change, but given the need for the Church to investigate over ten thousand messages, and the fact that the seers are still alive, still receiving visions, and (in some cases) gaining personal wealth as a result of their notoriety, it could be a long wait.

@ I am not Spartacus on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2011 12:16 PM (EDT) Spart, where can I find the full English texts of the documents “An Appeal in the Marian Year” and “My Declaration” to which Marija is referring in your link?

@ David L Alexander on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2011 1:32 PM (EDT) David, how would you respond (1) to pro-Meds who trot out that notorious out-of-context quote from Urban VIII that goes, “It is better to believe…”, etc.? (2) to the charge that you are sinning against the Holy Spirit by presuming an apparition not to be authentic? (3) to the charge that the apparitions are continuing ad nauseam in order to force a deferral of the Church’s decision?

@joe

what kind of stuff are you smoking Joe..Nobody “trots” out anything.
Medjugorje endures because the narrative coming from the visionaries of “We see what we see” is still the most compelling explanation to the mystical phenomena.  medjugorje is an unsolved mystery.  The way doubters look at Medjugorje is that six children not only concocted a hoax by lying about their visions but also masterfully created a Catholic movement of peace and grace that has moved Popes not to mention millions of Catholics around the world.  I challange you Joe to get six of your buddies and try and pull that one off.

Joe. Dunno where to find the complete texts

Ryan Medj. endures due to the current laxity in the Vatican and its decision to take-up the investigation despite the fact that two consecutive local Bishops have already ruled it ain’t what you say it is.

The lies of the seers are well-documented but that , for you, is not even a speed bump in the road in your rush to supplant your lay opinion for the decision taken by the, then, competent authorities.

No matter what the Commission says, and I am convinced the decision will be neither fish nor fowl, you will remain a true believer despite all the evidence this was a hoax from the get go.

Cest la vie.

That is what happens when Catholics cross continents chasing castles in the air.

@ ryan on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2011 2:18 PM (EDT) Ryan, it breaks my heart that so many Medjugorje followers argue that the movement’s size and success implies its authenticity. It turns my stomach that an informed Catholic like yourself would fall for that argument, what with your familiarity with Catholic history. The nearly universal gullibility of a movement’s followers cannot easily be dismissed.

@ Joe

I have never said the Medjugorje was authentic . I call it an unsolved mystery. I understand, in your mind you have sorted it all out, you have all the answers, but the Vatican (like me) disagrees with your conclusions. You are really sick of the Vatican and the Catholic church for not robustly condemning the Medjugorje so that YOUR world view is upheld. Your arrogance and you rigid intellectualism seem to have no bounds.  Your world view is that John Paul II is an idiot, Cardinal Schonborn is a nincompoop, thousand of priests and hundreds of Bishops are all simple minded dupes.  Joe, start looking seriously with an open mind why so many good, smart catholics find something good in medjugorje, you might find something surprising.

@Ryan,

I grow weary of your ad hominem attacks and general nonsense.  Based on your comments it’s clear you disdain the Church and any Catholic that dares question Medj.  While disdaining the Church you definitively proclaim Medj to be some kind of new church or sanctuary.  You promote some kind of new holiness that requires merely laughter, tears and spousal fighting.  You assert that Medj advocates support the Bishops of Mostar and have always been obedient to their guidance, and claim that for Medj one only needs to see to believe.

Here’s just a few sound bites of your absurdity, let’s review:

- medjugorje is not about “signs”  it is about a sanctuary -  a Sanctuary away from the Catholic “umpires” who think they know all the rules.

- medjugorje is a sanctuary from compulsive, retentive, rule obsessed people like you.

- I go to Medjugorje (figuratively speaking) and I am “safe” and I find the message of Jesus Christ that i recognize in the Gospels.

- a Sanctuary away from the Catholic “umpires” who think they know all the rules.

- You’r analysis is more Sherlock Holmes jibberish.

- next time somebody calls Med a hoax do me a favor and provide your evidence not childish sherlock holmes deductive reasoning

- “Critical thinking and reasoning” is a long way from revealing with evidence the fraud.

- Most sedavacantists and SSPX traditionalist “Catholics” are generally not found of medjugorje. But then the Holy Mother church is not fond of them either.

- The visionaries have families, they laugh , they cry, they probably fight with their spouses they drive cars,. The visionaries provide an extraordinary example of how to live close to God.

- There is NO contempt towards the Bishop of Mostar.

- There is no such thing as a document that “invalidates guidance” It is not how the Church works.

- There is no convincing doubters that the new commission formed by the Vatican to investigate and rule on Medjugorje actually means anything.

- “We see what we see” is still the most compelling explanation to the mystical phenomena.

@ Joe

well done. You forgot one thing. The Vatican has formed a new commission to investigate the events taking place at medjugorje.

One last thing. Try fasting Wednesday and Fridays and then tell me Medjugorje is all “feel good” I fail at it miserably.

I will leave you with this

Medjugorje Revisited: Donal Foley’s Conspiracy Theory Disproven by Eminent Doctor and Historical Evidence

by Daniel Klimek

Review: Donal Anthony Foley’s Medjugorje Revisited: 30 Years of Visions or Religious Fraud (Theotokos, UK: June 2011).

Donal Anthony Foley begins the third chapter of his new book Medjugorje Revisited with a few paragraphs wherein he tries to portray the visionaries of Medjugorje as troubled people. At one point, Foley quotes the BBC journalist Mary Craig to support his theory. Foley writes:

“Mary Craig described them as follows: ‘They were very different in temperament, social background and mental capacity-their intelligence ranging from slightly above to way below average.’” From this Foley follows with his own conclusion: “These are indications that the visionaries were to a greater or lesser extent emotionally vulnerable in some way, and therefore susceptible to the risk of things going wrong in any encounter with the preternatural, to say nothing of the diabolical.” (p. 27).

While Foley uses Mary Craig’s words that say the visionaries were “different” in order to portray them as troubled outsiders who could easily be influenced by the devil, when we look at the original source - Craig’s book A Spark from Heaven - we see what Mary Craig actually meant to say with her quotation: that the visionaries are “different” from each other in terms of personality - some being introverts while others being extroverts. Craig’s subsequent paragraphs, which Foley completely ignores, clarify this: about the visionaries, Craig examines that Marija Pavlovic seemed “the most serene of them all” while Vicka Ivankovic was “a cheerful, smiling extrovert” while Ivan Dragicevic “was serious and shy” and both Mirjana Dragicevic and Jakov Colo “could be called clever” (see Mary Craig, A Spark from Heaven, pp. 85-86, Ave Maria Press, 1988).

By no means did Craig mean through the word “different” that the visionaries were abnormal outsiders from troubled backgrounds who could - therefore - be vulnerable to being diabolically influenced—-in essence, Foley’s own personal pet theory.

Foley has become a writer infamous for distorting and misrepresenting other authors who have written about Medjugorje in order to paint a deliberately negative picture of the visionaries and events of Medjugorje - a picture that can fit in with Foley’s own predetermined conclusions about the site while ignoring and withholding the overall evidence that challenges those conclusions, showing them to be without merit.

When I reviewed Foley’s first book on Medjugorje last year, Understanding Medjugorje: Heavenly Visions or Religious Illusion?, of which this current book is an expanded edition, I came to the conclusion that Foley had concocted a fraud. In my article, “Understanding Medjugorje: A Reply to Donal Anthony Foley,” I documented how, for his own ideological purposes of portraying Medjugorje as inauthentic, Foley had persistently manipulated and misrepresented the historical and scientific evidence about Medjugorje. As this updated edition shows, it seems that the man has not learned his lesson but continues to misrepresent the facts.

Reading Medjugorje Revisited, one quickly comes to the conclusion that Foley’s main thesis adds up to nothing more than a conspiracy theory - a conspiracy theory that is, actually, easily disproven as false by scientific and empirical evidence.

Foley’s conspiracy theory argues that the visionaries may have been experiencing something spiritual during the first week or so of their apparitions-in Foley’s opinion, something diabolical-but that, eventually, the visionaries trained themselves to fall into “self-induced” ecstasies (this included the ten-year old Jakov) in order to keep the apparitions going because they were pressured to do so. Thus, for thirty years, according to Foley’s creative conspiracy theory, the visionaries have been committing an elaborate fraud that has manipulated millions of people and the Church through self-induced ecstasies.

Foley’s conspiracy theory is easily discredited by the facts, both historical and scientific. First, let’s look at the scientific facts.

In his first book on Medjugorje, Foley misrepresented a medical statement that the Italian neurophysiologist Dr. Marco Margnelli made about the visionaries’ ecstasies in order to portray the ecstasies as being “self-induced” (Foley’s theory) when, in fact, Dr. Margnelli’s statement actually made the opposite claim: explaining that the ecstasies are too profound to be self-induced. It is revealing that in order to maintain his “self-induced” ecstasies theory while taking into account the fact that Dr. Margnelli’s medical statement completely contradicts that theory, Foley had to essentially distort Dr. Margnelli’s medical statement to say something else. Foley did this by stating that “it is interesting that he [Dr. Margnelli] can describe the ecstasies of the visionaries in terms of a self-induced state of altered consciousness” when, in fact, Dr. Margnelli’s statement explained the exact opposite: that the visionaries pass into a state of consciousness that is too profound to be reached by self-induced techniques, enunciating: “As a scientist I can only declare that the children really pass into another state of consciousness - a condition that one can also reach through meditation practices, such as auto-training, though not as profoundly. Nor are the children lying, otherwise they would react to tests of a sensory and painful kind” (underline mine). Thus, Dr. Margnelli made clear that the condition which the visionaries enter is too profound to be reached through self-induced techniques, such as auto-training, completely undermining Foley’s conspiracy theory of “self-induced” ecstasies in Medjugorje. Notice that Dr. Margnelli also explains that the visionaries are not lying, discrediting Foley’s “fraud” theory as well.

Plus, the visionaries have passed all polygraph tests they have been subjected to throughout the years, further indicating that they are not lying about their experiences and that deception-or “religious fraud,” as Foley phrases it-cannot explain the phenomenon. Since these results do not align with Foley’s negative conclusion about Medjugorje, Foley decides - in this second edition of his book - to question Dr. Margnelli’s competence on the matter altogether as well as question the reliability of polygraph tests that the visionaries (as children, to make the case more convincing) constantly passed. This constitutes a major methodological trend of the author: if the facts do not agree with his predetermined (and negative) conclusions about Medjugorje then he dismisses the facts as unreliable.

In the revised edition of his book, after it was exposed that Foley misrepresented Dr. Margnelli’s statement, Foley did decide to finally acknowledge what Dr. Margnelli actually said: that the ecstasies are too profound to be self-induced (Medjugorje Revisited, p. 168).  While this is a noble recognition on Foley’s part, it is followed by extremely dubious speculation by Foley that completely compromises the integrity of the recognition. Since Dr. Margnelli’s scientific statement fully undermines Foley’s thesis, Foley decides in the second edition of his book to question Dr. Margnelli’s competence on the matter by questioning whether Dr. Margnelli is even in any position to make the diagnosis that the visionaries’ ecstasies are not self-induced-this despite the fact that Dr. Margnelli is a renowned neurophysiologist who actually authored a book on altered states of consciousness, his area of expertise (for Dr. Margnelli’s book, see: La droga perfetta: Neurofisiologia dell’estasi, Riza Scienze, 1984). Yet again, this is a major methodological trend of Foley’s: if the facts do not agree with his negative conclusions about Medjugorje then he dismisses the facts as unreliable. Clearly this is not a man who has any interest in examining the phenomena of Medjugorje objectively. 

In addition to scientific findings, the historical facts also contradict Foley’s conspiracy theory.

Foley argues that the visionaries were pressured to “continue” the apparitions (as if they had control whether they experience apparitions or not) after the first week or so. But this completely contradicts the historical evidence, which Foley himself records, showing that he is - in essence - contradicting himself with his conspiracy theory. The historical evidence shows that the visionaries were not pressured to continue their apparitions but, on the contrary, during those early weeks seemingly everyone around them - in initial disbelief - pressured the visionaries to stop saying that they’re experiencing apparitions. This included the then-Communist government; this included the pastor of St. James parish Fr. Jozo Zovko; this included the visionaries’ own parents who, at first, did not believe the children. In fact, government officials, operating under an atheistic regime, often threatened the visionaries and their families with severe matters if the apparitions continued. Government officials threatened to lock the visionaries up, as children, in mental asylums; government officials threatened the visionaries’ parents with arrest and by alleging that they would lose their jobs, particularly those with state-controlled jobs. The visionary Mirjana once explained how she was even bribed by government officials to say that the apparitions were false, being told that she would go to the best college and receive the best job if she complies with their demands. Mirjana never took the bribe, knowing in the deepest parts of her soul that what she was experiencing was authentic. Instead she was harassed by government officials, being removed from school almost every day and being interrogated for hours. In one year, her father’s hair turned completely white, the family experienced so much pain and pressure, she explained. These facts - that the visionaries were harassed and pressured exhaustively by government officials to say that the apparitions are false - constitute common knowledge that is present in countless books on Medjugorje. That has always been one of the signs of authenticity - the fact that as simple children the visionaries were able to withstand all that pressure and never deny their apparitions, while being threatened endlessly to deny their experiences.

Government officials were known for standing outside of the visionaries’ houses, cursing and yelling obscenities about them and their Catholic faith for days. In other words, unlike Foley’s conspiracy claims, the visionaries were not pressured to “continue” the apparitions but, on the contrary, they were pressured to call the apparitions false and discontinue experiencing the phenomena under very serious threats.

Thus Foley’s theory that the visionaries were pressured to continue the apparitions and, therefore, trained themselves to fall into “self-induced” ecstasies (a claim that is unsupported by any piece of empirical evidence) completely falls apart under investigation, especially when we consider the scientific and historical evidence which easily disproves this highly impoverished thesis; a thesis that adds up to nothing more than a creative conspiracy theory - a conspiracy theory that, under serious analysis and empirical investigation, completely falls apart.

The response to the nonsense of Mr Klimex.

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/medjugor/klimek.html

Seers tell Priests only three more apparitions.

oops…

http://en.louisbelanger.com/2010/06/21/medjugorje-the-grand-concealment-1-three-more-days-the-facts/

I note the further criticism of my updated book by Daniel Klimek, despite the fact that I have dealt his previous allegations. These rebuttals can be seen here (scroll down):

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/medjugor/medjugor.html

I have now answered his further criticisms here:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/medjugor/response-to-klimek-review-of-medjugorje-revisited.htm

And it should be noted that the book has endorsements from Mark Shea, Fr Manfred Hauke, Patrick Coffin and Fr Thomas Crean OP, which can be seen here:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/books/medjbook/medjbook.html

If people want to see a proper review of the book they need to visit:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/books/medjbook/jlreview.html

where they can see a review by James Likoudis in the Wanderer, a respected Catholic publication, unlike Ryan’s unbalanced pro-Medjugorje site.

Extracts from the book in PDF format, including the table of contents, introduction, sample chapters and the bibliography, can be seen here:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/books/medjbook/mrextracts.pdf

Deoacveritati, very informative post and I agree wholeheartedly. Marie, good point about the Anti-Christ – hadn’t heard that one before.  I don’t think Medjugorje is real because of the seers themselves.  If I saw the Blessed Mother in person, I’d probably have to go to a convent and dedicate myself entirely to God.  This has happened with most of the saints, even the married ones, once widowed, became priests or nuns.  That’s the effect seeing Our Lady or Our Lord in person has on someone.  These seers behave different from Bernadette and Lucia. I also think the disobedience to the Church is another red flag.  Our Lady would never encourage that.  One thing I have learned from reading the lives of different saints - God loves Obedience!  Remember who first disobeyed Him.  I believe in the other approved apparitions.  (If I could, I’d go to Fatima or Lourdes.)  I have a great devotion to Our Lady and know she can lead you to her Son. Thank God, I don’t have to see her to get closer to Him.  Another thing is Our Lady doesn’t babble that much, if one is to believe what those who have seen her say. If you want to get close to Jesus - go to Mass, do Adoration before the Blessed Sacrament, go to Confession regularly and receive Holy Communion, pray the rosary, read Scriptures and the lives of the saints, read good Catholic books, obey the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and pray always as St. Paul says. We don’t need to go to a pilgrimage to do that. I just can’t believe how Catholics are fighting over this and John Corapi.  I wonder if those that defend Medjugorje and Corapi are the same.  They don’t seem to want to put their trust first in Christ.

Dear Mr. Foley. Kudos on your diligent scholarship and industry. May God Bless and keep you

TJ, thank you for your kind words.
Regarding the Medjugorje and Corapi, I must say I have wonder the same thing.

God bless!!!

@ ryan on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2011 4:13 AM (EDT) You can learn a lot about someone by studying his enemies. If the best his enemies can muster is uncritical recycling of bunk, it redounds to his credibility. That’s how I started on the road to Rome, by reading the outrageous tracts of rabid fundamentalist street-preachers; I thought, “If anti-Catholics are this nutty, there must be something to it”. So when I saw your 1700-word cut-and-paste in the combox….

But anyways, about the commission, I have a few predictions. If the commission decides constat de non supernaturalitate, the pro-Med camp will counter: (a) that the decision merely means there was, at the time of the decision, insufficient evidence of supernatural character and that a reversal of the judgment is to be hoped for in the future; (b) that the commission failed to consider all of the available evidence; (c) that the commission’s decision is void on the grounds of some irregularity; (d) that the decision does not prohibit private pilgrimages to Medjugorje, privately organized Medjugorje-related events such as planned apparitions in non-church-owned venues, nor the private production and distribution of literature of a merely informative nature about the phenomenon; (e) that the commission is not infallible in its pronouncements.

Posted by Deoacveritati on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2011 1:44 PM (EDT):TG,thank you for your kind words.
Regarding the Medjugorje and Corapi, I must say I have wonder the same thing.

God bless!!!

@ Donal Foley on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2011 10:45 AM (EDT) I just now saw that video of Vicka laying hands on people that you mentioned in your response to Klimek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwvHzE_aeck). Unbelievable.

Thanks for your kind remarks I am not Spartacus and Joe for your support. Yes, that video is quite revealing, but the one with Vicka moving her head because she alleged that the Blessed Virgin was about to drop the child Jesus tops that!

You can see it at:

http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/a-practical-test.html

And there is also a very good commentary on it there too.

This one incident is really enough to blow Medjugorje out of the water.

Couldn’t Vicka had come up with something more credible than the claim that Blessed Virgin Mary seemed to be dropping Jesus?
Peace,
Maria

@Donal Foley.  You have an issue with the imposition of hands for intercessory prayer? Have you ever been to the University of Steubenville?  For heavens sakes, are you a critic of any expression of the charismatic dimension of the Church?

Not surprising, I find that many Medjugorje critics are similarly disposed to phariseeism ..

@Donal Foley.  Ha, I get it - laypersons who utilize the imposition of hands in intercessory prayer - for example a parent praying for a sick child - are “impersonating a Bishop”? That’s a joke right?!

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1669 Sacramentals derive from the baptismal priesthood: every baptized person is called to be a “blessing,” and to bless.174 Hence lay people may preside at certain blessings; the more a blessing concerns ecclesial and sacramental life, the more is its administration reserved to the ordained ministry (bishops, priests, or deacons).175

1670 Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church’s prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it. “For well-disposed members of the faithful, the liturgy of the sacraments and sacramentals sanctifies almost every event of their lives with the divine grace which flows from the Paschal mystery of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ. From this source all sacraments and sacramentals draw their power. There is scarcely any proper use of material things which cannot be thus directed toward the sanctification of men and the praise of God.”

@Donal Foley.  You have a BD in theology - an undergraduate degree. And that makes you what - a Mariologist?? Dr. Mark Miravalle, who actually is a Mariologist - and has served on investigative commissions of alleged apparitions - successfully defended his doctoral thesis at the Pontifical University of St. Thomas (Angelicum) in Rome.  His thesis? The Message of Medjugorje: A Postconcilar Formulation of Lourdes and Fatima. The dissertation showed how the messages of Medjugorje align with Chruch tradition, ranging from the Gospels to the teachings of the early Church Fathers in their foundational elements and, of course, to Vatican II and other approved apparitions.

As usual Mr. Foley rather than defend his position in this combox he rejects the criticism with nothing more than a link to his sight - it is always just a link to his website. I have asked Mr, Foley a number of times if he stands by his “theory” (note: note not proof) that the visionaries trained themselves to fool the scientists be inducing themselves into trances. Furthermore Mr. Foley has a habit of attaching fact to his own speculation and musing.

What a ridiculous post. 30 years these ‘seer’s have led others into false belief in disobedience and scandal to their ordinary. Why stop it now and not let it go on another 30 years until all the deceivers are dead in their silk lined coffins?

Why? Oh, I don’t know -because truth matters?

@ Donal Foley on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2011 3:33 PM (EDT) Wellllll ... the eye-poking video can be explained, that the Blessed Virgin, Seat of Wisdom, and Lady of Perpetual Help, looked like she was going to drop the Second Person of the Holy Trinity on the floor and Vicka, thoroughly familiar with the physical properties of these visions after four years of weekly apparitions, was going to catch Him, by flinching backwards. And this utterly unprecedented near-accident chanced to occur a split-second after someone tried to poke her in the eye, so it can still be a coincidence. Fair enough. But what I don’t understand is why she volunteered an explanation before anyone mentioned the incident to her. Nor do I understand why the other visionaries just sat there without doing anything.

@ MarkC on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2011 5:20 PM (EDT) Mark, Donal doesn’t need a degree in anything but common sense, in which he appears to have been graduated cum laude. But now that we are trotting out our framed diplomas, Mark, what expertise do you have in telling whether a person is lying?

While Dr Miravallle may be an exemplary Catholic, that does not mean he has not erred in his judgment of Medj. or let things out of his dissertation

The discussion following Mr Madrid’s post illustrates that the Commission of Bishops (with many theologians) took the decision that there was no evidence of an apparition.

So, if two consecutive Bishops take the decision that there is no evidence of an apparition kick it up to a Commission of Bishops, and if they take the decision there is no evidence of an apparition, the Vatican can step in.

http://patrickmadrid.com/medjugorje-and-the-maciel-effect/

Good point Julia. We’re getting away from the point of the article, that the Vatican may suspend judgment indefinitely and let the phenomenon die out on its own. Should such be case, what does everybody think about it? Would that be a pastorally appropriate course to take?

Here is an excerpt of Vicka’s Diary (September 4, 1981):

“We asked about a man who had seen Jesus on his way when he was taking some people to their destination. He [the driver] met a man all bloodied. That man was Jesus.

Jesus gave him a bloodied handkerchief and asked him to throw it into a river. Driving further on, he met a woman. And that woman was the Blessed Virgin Mary, and she asked the driver to hand the bloodied hankie over to her.

The driver offered her his own hankie, but the Gospa wanted the bloody one. When the driver gave her the bloody hankie, the Gospa said: “If you had not given it to me, that would have been the end of the world.”

The Gospa said that was the truth.” [The Hidden Side of Medjugorje, p. 250]

THIS is the Virgin Mary saying this. PUHLEEZE

Spartacus, what is the pro-Med community’s explanation of that bloody-handkerchief story? It makes absolutely no sense at all.

Joe and I am not Spartacus,
I’m with you, this is just too much for anyone with brains to take.

But I personally can’t get over the madona from Medjugorje taking one on the visionaries out and paying for her meal.

Like I have said before this madona seems very mundane!

Now now, ridiculing the phenomenon is no argument against its authenticity.

Joe if you read my earlier postings, and to all of you I apologized for my mispelling and my english,you will see I’m not doubting the authenticity of the phenomenon.

I am just ridiculing what I believe is a deception of the devil, and the poor judgement of many Catholics who openly defy the Magisterium and traditional teaching of the Church regarding apparitions, by falling for this LIE or what Cardinal Bertone says “Medjugorje is to some extent an anomaly that doesn’t completely square with other apparitions. It doesn’t entirely follow the traditio, or tradition, of apparitions.”
With this quote I don’t mean to say that Bertone is denying the phenomenon either.

Now if this is a deception from the enemy then those of us who have eyes to see and ears to hear must ridicule this apparitions to see if we can make some people ask themselves: if this is the kind of comments that would come from the Blessed Virgen Mary???

I for my part have no problem ridiculing anything that comes from the enemy of our souls.

I ,for one thing, have a conflict with the apparition of Medjugorje or the phenomena telling the seers that Mary’s real birthday is not Sept. 8 but October 5th. 

Medjugorje followers are ready to celebrate two birthdays one coming soon on Oct.5th and one Sept. 8. 

What happens to the day the Church celebrates the Immaculate Conception of Mary on December 8th? 

If Mary is the Mother of the Church, and has appeared many times before and after througout the history of the Church She could have told us after the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception was given the date of her real BD was but She approved of The decision of the Church’s date of December 8th.  Why?  Because She is the obedient Model of Christianity.  She is the Servant of the Savior and First Disciple of Jesus.  She would never ever go against the Church, because the Church has the power to bind and loose things in heaven and things on earth.

Peace,
Maria

The following is a link to the relevant portion of the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding private revelations:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PH.HTM

There are attempts to explain the intervention of the Holy See as an abrogation of the local bishop’s authority. Even if She did (and there are any number of reasons to be involved other than overruling a local bishop, which did not happen), it would change nothing of what the Catechism teaches.

Anyone who continues to show sympathy for the phenomena at Medjugorje, without knowing what the Church teaches regarding such phenomena, is seriously misguided. St John of the Cross himself would be less kind in his appraisal than would I.

@ joe and I am not Spartacus

Did you hear the one about the ten year old boy who trained himself to go into meditative trances and fooled a team of international doctors and scientists claiming he was seeing the Blessed Virgin Mary..He then recruited five other teenagers to join the prank.  Then after all the children mastered the art of self induced trances, secretly practicing in their rooms, they invented “messages” that created a gigantic spiritual movement that even Popes would find moving. Read all about it Donal Foley;s fact filled book.

@ ryan
Have you heard of the apparitions to Joseph Smith in 1820? Talk about a gigantic spiritual movement! After barely 200 years it boasts 13 million followers all over the world. Now why would you ignore fruits like that, Ryan, unless you have a closed mind?

@joe,

You have a problem with Mormons?  13 million people who love and worship God? It is not for me to judge.

Maybe my interest in Medjugorje is that Medjugorje tends to represent and teach what Catholicism is for and not what it is against (except Satan).

@Joe,

I purposely left this out of my previous list of ‘sound bites of absurdity.’  In all charity, I truly thought it was a mistake or over sight.  Clearly I was wrong:

Posted by ryan on Monday, Aug 1, 2011 9:55 AM (EDT):

- I take the position of the Church which is, “Holy, Catholic and Apostolic”

@ dismas

Catholic “umpire” Dismas with no qualifications has ruled me out at home place. Joe you are out of line condemning mormans (moslems and jews are in your cross hairs as well would be my guess) The “Holy, Catholic and Apostolic” completely rejects your view.

the Second Vatican Council
In the opening chapter of the document, the council Fathers teach that all people have a single origin and one ultimate end, namely, God himself. His “providence,” the “witness of his goodness,” and “counsels of his salvation” extend to all human beings. His salvific will is universal (the document refers to a chain of scriptural texts), but this means that he owes it to himself to offer all human beings whatever means are necessary and sufficient to attain salvation.

Do your homework. I think you have a bigger problem with the Catholic Church than even Medjugorje.

I would like to thank Pat Archbold for running this article and letting the combox fly.. Freedom of speech is alive and well here.

And not that anybody cares I am going to move on. Its been real…But I have no doubts all of our paths will cross again

steve ryan
www.ministryvalues.com

Ryan I don’t know if you are craddle Catholic or a convert but if you are a convert to the Catholic faith you seem to have kept you past errors of whatever faith you use to profess.
To me you sound like like a protestant would, faith alone and and even the title of your ministry values etc.
And “If” you are a craddle Catholic you still have a lot to learn about the True Magisterium of the Church and the value the Catholic Church puts on Tradition.

PS,Mormonism was founded by an occultist and a con-artist.

@ Ryan,

I’m sorry I upset you.  Before you go, I should clarify my comment to Joe in your regard.  I was merely pointing out that your statement, [I take the position of the Church which is, “Holy, Catholic and Apostolic”] is false.  This is not the full position of the Church.  I was only trying to determine if a.) you honestly don’t know the Marks of the Church and what they mean; or b.) you do know the Marks of the Church, what they mean and willfully reject them?

Ok i took the bait..

Sister Lucia and the two other uneducated peasant children of Fatima did not know the “Marks” of the Church (perhaps Lucia at some point in her life).. But what they did know is they loved the Blessed Mother and the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ adn they are in Heaven.  Someday, Dismas,  you will understand “Our Lady” reveals herself to the uneducated and unworldly (hint, hint the Children of Medjugorje included) and by passes Bishops,Deacons and Catholic Umpires for very good reasos and that is to teach and remind us that Her Son came to us to lead us to salvation by loving and worshiping the Father.
Jesus himself said, when asked about “Rules” - He said Love the Father and love your neighbor.

Look i am all in favor of rules and structure. No doubt it is the foundation of the strength and survival of the Catholic Church - the longest lasting institution on earth but condemning each and every Christian and believer that does not adhere to you immediate demands is sinful. Teach, instruct, encourage, give your life to the Magisterium but stop condemning people to hell for their own heartfelt beliefs. The Catholic Church is not a “bar exam” that one must pass to achieve salvation.

@rysn,

Drop the ad hominem attacks and stop with the false assumptions.  I haven’t condemned anyone.  Just answer the question, Ryan, which is it a. or b.?

a.) you honestly don’t know the Marks of the Church and what they mean; or b.) you do know the Marks of the Church, what they mean and willfully reject them?

Ryan satanists have their own heartfelt beliefs too, that is exactly the problem they have condemned themselves to hell.

The “Madona” of Medjugorje claims ALL religions are the same, that includes satanist then? I don’t know about you, but this is one of my many problems with Medjugorje, it is purely HERETICAL.
I go as far as to say that the “Madona” of Medjugorje is the “Madona of Ecumenism”. And I don’t believe in ecumenism.
Ecumenism as far as I am concern has brought too many problems to the Catholic faith by making the Catholic religion in par with other faiths and that in itself is a very serious error.

All religions are not the same, and they are certainly not equal to the Catholic faith. If all religions are equal then it is denying the rightful claim of the Catholic Church as being the ONLY TRUE CHURCH JESUS CHRIST FOUNDED ON THIS EARTH.

@ dismas
DO you know what ad hominem even means?  And you have not condemned anyone.. you have condemned nearly everyone. Good God Dismas you have condemned millions of Catholics that have an open mind towards the events at medjugorje not to mention 13,000,000 Mormons. the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic” so what..

Ecumenism——Now we are getting somewhere… Now I know what troubles you. Perhaps you misunderstand Our Lady’s words on Ecumenism?

But before we go down that road. Are you OK with the Catholic Church i.e. on Ecumenism..as it stands after Vatican II?

Mormons are not even Christian, Ryan. But one constant amongst those attached to apparitions and visions is indifferentism.

So, so what if millions on Mormons are polytheists? Who cares if they worship multiple Gods?

Ryan. So, what about Vicka’s Diary and the whole bloody hanky or end of world thingy?

You jake with that?

@MarkC – regarding the Charismatics, I am suspicious of aspects of the whole thing – it came out of Protestantism, and the emotionalism, the Toronto blessings etc, are suspect as far as I can see. Ronald Knox’s book “Enthusiasm” is very good on the historical aspects of such movements. I don’t see a problem with parents blessing their children, but for an alleged visionary to be laying hands on total strangers as though she has some special powers is, to me, very suspect. You don’t find anything like that amongst the seers of the recognised apparitions.

Regarding your points about Mark Miravalle, I have assessed his books in Medjugorje Revisited. I think the problem with his approach is that he has put the cart before the horse in examining Medjugorje. That is, he has analyzed the messages before really determining whether they are trustworthy. Thus his methodology is flawed.

@ryan – as others who have commented have noted, ryan is fond of ad hominem attacks, and my past experiences of communicating with him have not been fruitful. Ryan expected me to provide him with a summary of one of the chapters in my book rather than go to the trouble of reading it himself. In fact since he hasn’t read the book he should just say nothing about it.

Regarding the visionaries and their trances, if it is a choice between admitting you have been leading thousands of people astray – people who in the Balkans tend to react violently to being deceived - or keeping up a pretence of seeing the Gospa, then it isn’t hard to see them choosing the easy option. Plus, once the money started to flow into Medjugorje, there was an even stronger incentive to keep the whole thing going.

@Joe – Joe I think the reason Vicka offered an explanation for the “baby Jesus incident” is summed up in the five letter word, “guilt.”

“As usual Mr. Foley rather than defend his position in this combox he rejects the criticism with nothing more than a link to his sight”

Dear Ryan. Tell me that was a failed attempt at a joke.

You can not be serious in making that assertion - that an author ought defend his position in comboxes rather than link to his books on the matter under discussion.

And why would he responds to you, of all people. You do not have a track record of responding to questions

@ I am not spartacus.

Most blogs/comboxs do not allow links back to books.etc.(it is usually perceived is a cheap promotional gimmick to sell books) Most of my requests to Foley to summarize his views were in e-mail exchanges ..SO if i miss spoke than pox on me. and look Spartucus none of this is a joke.

@foley (and all who will listen) Please read carefully: Mr FOley’s “explanation” for the enduring nature of Medjugorje is that The visionaries had to keep up the pretense to save their own necks . THERE IS NO PROOF OR EVIDENCE OF THIS - it is nothing more than a cockamamie “theory” speculation, a day dream, whatever - yet Mr. Foley continues to represent his work as scholarship and proof of fraud or medjugorje is of a diabolical origin. He admits they probably witnessed an Apparition of the Virgin Mary. Yet because he SAYS the apparitions have ceased (with no proof) medjugorje is false. Dear readers of the combox Foley’s continues to represent his musings as fact and scholarship .. please be advised.

@Donal Foley

So, you are suspicious of Charismatics? Perhaps your next endeavor should be an “expose” of them. You might as well start with Fr. Michael Scanlon, TOR and the Franciscan University of Steubenville.  Never mind that both the Charismatic Renewal as a movement and the charismatic dimension of the Church have been affirmed by the last three Popes.  I’m sure you can find a “bloody handkerchief” or two ..

As for Dr. Miravalle , and other prominent Mariologists and theologians who are favorably disposed towards Medjugorje - Fr. Rene Laurentin, Fr. Luigi Gambero,  Fr. Eamon Carroll, Cardinals Schonborn and von Balthasar - I’m sure they are no match for your bachelor’s degree in theology.  Perhaps the International Commission should be disbanded of all it’s theological expertise and reconstituted with undocumented “super snoopers” such as yourself.  Do you seriously contend that the doctoral thesis Dr. Miravalle successfully defended at the Pontifical University of St. Thomas (Angelicum) in Rome is fundamentally and methodologically flawed?  Perhaps you should write an expose of the Angelicum??

As regards the laying on of hands - you write elsewhere that this is tantamount to “impersonating a Bishop”.  Are you backing off that claim?  I wonder if Archibald, Madrid, Coffin et al would back you up on this point?  You say the visionary Vicka is imposing hands on “total strangers” - is she doing so without their consent?  The Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms the nine charismatic gifts continue to exist and build up the Church (CCC, 2003).  Are you not aware of this?  Or, are you just ‘suspect’?

I’m becoming “suspect” that you are an uncredentialed opportunist ..

Regarding ryan’s comments – he simply doesn’t know what he is talking about, since he has not read my book – otherwise he would not make the utterly foolish statement that I said that it was the Blessed Virgin who appeared to the visionaries initially. Rather, all the evidence (as found on the original taped interviews with the visionaries), indicates that what they saw up until 3rd July was a diabolical impersonation.

The tapes also indicate that there were only supposed to be “three more days” of visions, ending on 3 July. Even the pro-Medjugorje writer Randall Sullivan admits that after the vision that evening, Vicka said that the Gospa had appeared for the last time (See Medjugorje Revisited, p. 68).

From that point on, then, we are obviously dealing with fabricated visions.

So I am not putting forward mere speculation, but a sensible explanation as to why the alleged visions continued. This argument is developed at length in the book, but if people can’t be bothered to read it, or are afraid of the truth about Medjugorje, then there is little more that I can do.

@MarkC – I’m not saying that everything about the Charismatic movement is wrong, but I would argue that it has proved itself far too amenable to various characters going around claiming to be healing people etc – and also that the conjunction between the Charismatic movement and Medjugorje undoubtedly did a great deal to promote the latter.

Regarding the theologians you mention, their arguments are dealt with in the book if you care to read it. To a large extent they have followed in the wake of Laurentin, whose position on Medjugorje is fundamentally flawed – for evidence of this see:

http://en.louisbelanger.com/2010/10/20/medjugorje-the-grand-concealment-2-three-more-days-duplicity-rene-laurentin/

I would contend that Miravalle’s thesis is flawed from the perspective of reality and common sense – you cannot discuss the messages arising from alleged visions unless you have established that the visions are creditworthy – which Miravalle did not do.
 
I have no problem in accepting that the charismatic gifts you mention still exist in the Church – the problem is one of discernment, and establishing in a particular case whether or not they are present. If you can tell me exactly where the “impersonating a bishop” quote is found I will have another look at it.

I have a question for everyone, is it possible for someone that doesn’t know the Marks of the Church to teach or lead a discussion on Catholic Ecumenism?

Forgive me for I was confused with the date given by the “phenomena at Medjugorje” of Mary’s supposed real birthday.  I wrote Oct.5th.  I checked in Medjugorje websites and they are waiting to celebrate this supposed birthday of our Lady on August 5th. Sorry for the confusion. Tomorrow!

Peace,
Maria

@Donal Foley

On this page (http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/medjugor/klimek.html) you say “..it could be said that a lay person laying hands on individuals is akin to impersonating a bishop.”

Such a statement is indicative of a very narrow and theologicially untrained mind (at least in the Catholic tradition).  It is sad that bloggers like Madrid, Shea, and Archbold are sourcing you for their skepticism of Medjugorje.  It seems the wild conspiracy theorists like Jones and Davies were no longer tenable ...

@donal foley

Can you explain your statement “I am not putting forward mere speculation, but a sensible explanation” 

What is the difference, please, between a “sensible explanation” and “speculation.” I mean if you honestly believe there is an important distinction “sensible explanation” and “speculation” than we have a big problem. Bottom line - you have absolutely no evidence at all to back your claim that the seers have perpetuated a prank to say their skins. I am really beginning to think I am wasting my time giving your “sensible explanations” any kind of respect - Again your musings are not scholorship or proof.

Also the visionaires say they see the Virgin Mary but you say is “what they saw up until 3rd July was a diabolical impersonation.” Where do you get this? Again it is your OPINION- your day dream. You make this statement as if you have PROOF MarkC said it best I’m becoming “suspect” that you are an uncredentialed opportunist.

Rea

RYan. You were asked, but never responded to, the bloody hanky and the end of the world.  Well?

As for The Charismatic movement?  The Catholics who brought it into the Church had been attending protestant charismatic meetings in detroit - always a sound source for Catholic movements.

@Spartacus.  What’s the matter with Detriot?

Mark C said:
“It is sad that bloggers like Madrid, Shea, and Archbold are sourcing you (Donal Foley)for their skepticism of Medjugorje.  It seems the wild conspiracy theorists like Jones and Davies were no longer tenable”

Lets not forget Patrick Coffin. 

It is astonishing to me that the Catholic bloggesphere demeans Medjugorje - an unsolved spiritual mystery, important to millions of Catholic faithful around the world - using suspicious uncredentialed sources, all the while ignoring/boycotting important Catholics intellects like Mark Miravalle who has had closed door meeting with Popes. . Would it kill any of these guys to say “Hey Mark would you mind weighing in on Medjugorje”

Obviously I have a bias but Daniel Klimek has written extensively on Medjugorje (Master Degree Yale Divinity, Phd Candidate Catholic University) I would love to see National Catholic Register (or CMR) offer up his thoughts on Medjugorje.

Patrick Madrid dedicated a whole column about me and an article I wrote (oddly not mentioning my name or linking to my article despite my rigorous objections) titled “Medjugorje - Skeptics turn up empty in search for Wizard” How about it Pat Archbold ..Here is the link http://www.ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1211&Itemid=125

Mark..LOL Um, well, whites go into Detroit to exhume their relatives so they can be buried elsewhere so they wont get robbed when they go to visit their grave sites, but other than things like that, and no jobs, and high crime, and abandoned factories, and a corrupt black political system,  D-town is cool :)

Catholic Charasmatic movement

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Hist-of-Char.html

@Sparticus.  Is that where you get your theology - Richard Salbato and unitypublish?  Very sad.  Not surprising then you have issues with Medjugorje and the Charismatic Renewal.  Tell me, do you agree with Salbato that the Mass of Vatican II is demonic and a mason conspiracy? Do you think it is wise to inform yourself on Catholic matters from someone who is capable of such bile?  You know what they say, “garbage in, garbage out” .. 

Incidentally, which of these statements do you think most closely aligns to the true Catholic position:

A) Protestants offer nothing of value in faith or practice for Catholics.
B) Protestants have a life of grace and can contribute to the edification of Catholics in faith and practice.

Patrick Archbold - are you still following? Scratch a anti-medjugorje warrior and very often you find an intolerant, ill-informed reactionary ..

For a less jaundiced history of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, Cardinal Levada offers the following: http://www.sfspirit.com/renewal-history.html

Error has no rights, and the way ecumenism has been promoted since Vatican II is wrong, yes go ahead and attack me, but ecumenism as it was originally intended was to help bring back those how are in error into the truths of the Catholic Church, it was not intended to put the Catholic faith in par with heretics, schismatics and pagans.

Jesus Christ said go an baptize all nations in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, it is clear Christ intended the whole world including all peoples not only some people in the world to be Catholics yes,the only Christians that have existed, and yes, with that I am saying that Protestants are not Christians period.

Christ intended all peoples Jews, Muslims, and Pangans to be Catholics. All people on the earth are suppossed to abandoned their error and false religions and become Catholics.
And No Protestants have nothing to offer since they have abandoned the truths found in the Catholic Church and Luther and his Protestant followers, have nothing to give to the fullness of grace and truth given by Jesus Christ to his True Church on earth.

The Catholic Church is to make Catholics and converts to the faith strong in the faith not support heretics and schismatics in their errors.

Vatican ii was NOT an infallible council, it never declared anything infallible and was as ambiguous a council as they get. So before anyone attempts more talk of ecumenism, don’t forget there is already “on the books” as an infallibly declared dogma of the church “No Salvation Outside The Catholic Church” .  Try comparing that with the statements of Medj. and see if it really originates from heaven.  Why put your soul at risk if the church has not made a declaration .

The dogma of “No Salvation Outside The Catholic Church” is sealed with the highest teaching authority of the Church. It is defined infallibly or “Ex Cathedra.” It cannot be “overturned.”

No one, not even the Pope, can change or water down this dogma as it comes from God Himself through the Extraordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Here are three infallible pronouncements that ALL CATHOLICS are bound to believe:

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved.”—Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215 A.D.

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” —Pope Boniface VIII, the Papal Bull “Unam Sanctum,” 1302 A.D.

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her, and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian solder. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, not even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”—Pope Eugene IV, the Papal Bull “Cantate Domino”, 1441 A.D.

These dogmas are not teachings of hate. Quite the contrary. They are teachings of true Charity.  Eternal life hangs in the balance.

Ryan, thanks for coming back, but you’ve refused to explain why Vicka volunteered an explanation of her flinch before anyone told her what happened, and you’ve refused to explain why the other visionaries made no move to save the falling Savior. These two public, videotaped, and undisputed facts prove the visionaries are liars.

@Joe

She flinched .. so what? Who knows why she flinched. She has been tested and examined unlike any witness to apparitions in the history of the world.. All of them have been tested by renowned medical doctors and scientists. They did not fool the doctors OK. But there is no convincing skeptics on this. All of the scientific investigation means nothing to you. You all know better than the doctors who actually did the tests and actually had something at stake like their medical reputations. You think they are all in on it. They are incompetent or if you did the test you would have obviously seen the fraud. You guys need to get over yourselves -really.

  She has been in a fish bowl for thirty years. Read Donal Foley’s work. It is all nothing but day dreaming and speculation. There is nothing there.There is no evidence. You bring out one small incident that seems inconsistent - but you don;t explain how six people not only lied about their visions but, incredibly, created a spiritual movement of epic proportions. This, as I said earlier, according to skeptics, was master mined by a ten year old boy who really liked to play soccer before he realized he could build a religious empires by telling people he was seeing the Virgin Mary.

Look there is one thing I want to know about - the so called parchment - Now that is strange - One of the visionaries says she was given a “parchment” -from heaven - by Our Lady. If I am the Vatican I want to see the parchment -

At the risk of sounding snarky, Ryan, I noticed once again you didn’t answer the question. I didn’t ask you why Vicka flinched. Pardon the personal observation, but your sudden lack of focus at precisely this juncture rather than at others is remarkable.

This is all very sad really. In trying to strain the gnat from what Medjugorje purportedly does and does not teach, the “bloody hanky” if you will, we’ve discovered the real camel in the room. Our “go to” expert - with an undergraduate degree in theology - is so narrow minded as to believe a small act of charity - the laying on of hands and prayer for healing - is an ecclesial crime!  Also, self-styled Catholics who pick and choose Councils and Church teachings like fried goodies at an oriental buffet!!

Note to Katie and Deo - Vatican II is binding on all Catholics! You are required as a Catholic to submit to its teachings, and even to give the obedience of interior (as well as exterior/public) assent(CCC,891).

Note to Patrick Archbald - You were concerned about Medjugorje devotees who are theoretically so far off the reservation that any verdict from the International Commission whatsoever might send them over a cliff (in thirty years of following Medjugorje I’ve never met ONE PERSON who ever intimated any such thing!) ... come to find that several of your comboxers, Medjugorje skeptics (is that term strong enough?) who do not even accept: Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, Ecumenism (I’ll stop there).  And, your favored “expert” who is dubious not only of Medjugorje but of Charismatics in general and even a simple act of faith - a prayer for healing.

You should have more than enough material for blogging. A couple of suggested topics: How Catholics view Protestants. And, Vatican II: Is it Binding? Next, The Laying on of Hands: Is it an Ecclesial Crime? Inquiring minds want to know ..

@joe
I don’t know why she offered an explanation.  Who knows what the true circumstances of that event really are. It needs to be researched, looked into by serious people, but I now have less faith in the skeptics veracity than I ever have. I mean that.  Donal Foley and his day dreams are of no value to anybody. His assertion that “I am not putting forward mere speculation, but a sensible explanation”  has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard and he is your guy.

He is irrelevant.  I am stunned and saddened really at the little crumbs you skeptics hold onto relative to the entire body of the movement.

The expert and doctors who have tested the seers of Medjugorje can not tell what these seers are seeing. They can only give us what they know about the state of their bodies.  They are experts in the physical body and perhaps some psychological aspects of the body as well but they can not tell us what kind of spirit is, if it is that, the seers are seeing.

The only One able to see who or what is truly appearing
at Medjugorje to the six seers is the Holy Spirit because only
the Spirit of God knows the things of God. 

Jesus promised that the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit.

We await for the Holy Spirit to work through the Catholic Church to give us the “yes it is from God” or the “no it is not from God”.

Peace,
maria

If I pick and choose between councils and church teachings you do a great job ignoring the past 20 Church Councils and “conveniently” focusing on only one of the Councils, Vatican II, and the falsely understood Ecumenism that come out of it, accepted by those who prefer a more liberal Catholic Church.

It is obvious from the remarks of ryan and MarkC that this particular debate has degenerated, on their part, into a mud-slinging exercise, in which they avoid answering the genuine problems concerning Medjugorje, and instead launch into a series of insulting comments against anyone who disagrees with them, or else focus on peripheral matters such as the question of Vicka laying on hands. Having looked at that again, I think that what I said can be described as fair comment, since traditionally the laying on of hands has been a solemn rite performed by bishops. But it is hardly a major point to make such a song and dance about.

Klimek’s thoughts on Medjugorje amount to nothing more than a desperate attempt to believe in it despite all the steadily accumulating negative evidence. Despite the fact that I have refuted his objections to my earlier Medjugorje book, he once again came back with more spurious objections regarding the updated version, which have again been refuted. (see: www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/medjugor/medjugor.html)

Again, I would point out that ryan has not read my book and therefore is in no position to offer any criticism of it. He seems incapable of making a comment without being insulting in one way or another – is that a sign of a truly Catholic spirit; is that another of the good fruits of Medjugorje?

I think that fair-minded people reading the comments as a whole would have to agree that as far as Medjugorje is concerned it is impossible to have a real dialogue with Medjugorje extremists such as ryan and MarkC – their only response is abuse and ad hominem attacks. This is what happens when people put their faith in human beings – the visionaries – rather in the Church and God.

It might be that much of this abusive comment to could be eliminated if people were obliged to give their full names when making comments, in the same way that people have to give their full name and address when writing into a Catholic publication, unless there are very good reasons for withholding their name. If people had to give their full names they might think twice before insulting their fellow Catholics. Perhaps Catholic Blogs could lead the way in this, otherwise the “debate” will only further degenerate.

The saddest thing about all this is that the genuine message of Fatima is being neglected while the Medjugorje fraud is being promoted by well-meaning people who are not aware of all the problems associated with it. Instead of focusing on doing what Our Lady actually asked for at Fatima, and particularly the promotion of the Five First Saturdays devotion, many Catholics are being sidetracked into the “signs and wonders” associated with Medjugorje.

Yet, it is through full compliance with the message of Fatima that the period of peace promised by Our Lady will be given to the world. So while this debate might seem peripheral to many people, it is actually of crucial importance, and this is backed up by the way all the Pope’s since Pius XII have taken such a keen interest in Fatima.

In sum, this debate has run its course, and unless some way can be found to have such debates in a truly Catholic manner, that is with a focus on the facts and without insults and abuse, then I see little point in such exercises in the future.

@donal Foley

Foley your use of the word “obviously” makes my hair hurt. It is your trump card - your one trick pony, your answer to everything.

Obviously medjugorje is a fraud, Obviously the visonaries lie, obviously they see a demon, are playing a prank, fooled the doctors ..Obviously Ryan is mean, “Obvious, obvious obvious.” 

Foley you never really say anything other than “Obviously everybody is wrong, incompetent stupid etc. except you of course.

What is obvious to me is that you are an empty suit and an uncredentialled opportunist” and Mr. Foley that is no “mere speculation” on my part but a “sensible explanation”

Ryan says “Obviously medjugorje is a fraud, Obviously the visonaries lie, obviously they see a demon, are playing a prank, fooled the doctors ..Obviously Ryan is mean”

Wow, FINALLY we have all reached an agreement!

Is that where you get your theology - Richard Salbato and unity publish

Dear Mark C. Besides your Genetic fallacy- a thing is to be judged wrong due to its origin - a recapitulation of history is not theology

I have asked Ryan several times about the bloody hanky and the end-of-ther-world thing in Vicka’s Diary and he has not responded.

We do not have to think either long or hard as to the reason for the non-response.

Buh Bye, Ryan

@Spartacus.  You are not wrong because you read Salbato.  You are wrong because you reject Vatican II and you believe there is no grace in Protestantism. If all you read are reactionary sites, then it helps explain how you could stray so far from orthodoxy and why you are so closed minded towards the pneumatological dimension of the Church ..

@Donal Foley. Your accusation that Vicka is guilt of an ecclesiastical crime for a simple act of charity (interceding on behalf of a pilgrim) is not a peripheral matter, it is illustative - indicative of a rigid and uncharitable mindset which opportunistically seizes on an whiff of wrongdoing. You are (an uncredentialed) Inspector Javert pursuing innocent people with white-hot vengance. Your approach is hardly scholarly and not even charitable.

I’m open to legitimate investigation and criticism of Medjugorje and the visionaries, but the modus operandi of many in your camp is seize on ANYTHING negative and blame it on Medjugorje - toss every scrap of mud you can find against a wall and hope that something sticks. So no, I won’t waste my time or money on your book. And NCR bloggers should think twice before allowing academic hacks such as yourself to do their heavy lifting. At least take the time to get some graduate level coursework and credentials before you try to take on scholars like Miravalle, Laurentin, Von Balthasaar, etc ..

Dear Mark. Either immediately provide evidence I reject Vatican Two - I don’t - or apologise.

  Just because I reject the obvious hoax that Med is is no reason for you to lie about me

@Sparticus. Please answer the simple question I posed to you before and that will indicate to all whether or not you accept the infallible teaching of Vatican II regarding grace outside the visible Church:

Incidentally, which of these statements do you think most closely aligns to the true Catholic position:

A) Protestants offer nothing of value in faith or practice for Catholics.
B) Protestants have a life of grace and can contribute to the edification of Catholics in faith and practice.

Hint: Don’t consult unitypublishing or Salbato for the answer!

@Donal Foley: I find it painful to see how Mr. Ryan and Mr. “MarkC” treat you personally and everyone that doesn’t agree with them.

An analysis of their language shows intellectual hooliganism and a manifest inability to debate without numerous appeals to known argumentative fallacies.

The proof is in the pudding served on Mr. Ryan’s website (“Ministry Values”)—- despite his protest: “There is NO contempt towards the Bishop of Mostar”. [Posted here by Mr. Ryan on Monday, Aug 1, 2011 9:55 AM (EDT)].

Apparently, Mr. Ryan doesn’t remember that his colleague, Daniel Klimek, wrote [2010-11-06 on the said website].: “We hope that they [critics of Medjugorje] will stop elevating the personal opinion of a renegade bishop”.

Merriam-Webster defines renegade as “a deserter from one faith, cause or allegiance to another”, “an individual who rejects lawful or conventional behaviour”—- Synonyms of “renegade” are: “apostate, defector, deserter, recreant (unfaithful to duty or allegiance)”—- and contempt as the “act of despising”, “wilful disobedience to or open disrespect of a court, judge, or legislative body”.

Who are they, at the so-called “Ministry Values” to despise in such a way the Bishop of Mostar (Mgr Zanic or Mgr Peric) who was or is the legitimate and competent “judge” of the Medjugorje affair?

Mr. Ryan shows wilful ignorance of the meaning of the negative (albeit non-definitive) verdict concerning Medjugorje: “non constat de supernaturalitate” which still holds, from 1986 until today, 2011-08-05.

The Medjugorje propagandists try to persuade us that the one and only “bad guy” in authority who has brought the negative verdict to the CDF is the Bishop of Mostar. They avoid underlining that more than 40 experts and 19 out of the 20 bishops of former Yugoslavia are at the origin of the negative verdict together with the local Ordinary. One sole enemy is easier to denigrate than sixty!

Mr. Ryan avoids publicizing that 14 years ago, the Ordinary of Mostar expressed his hope that the Holy See would establish a Commission that should give a final judgement on the Medjugorje case.

Mr. Ryan avoids publicizing that attached to the “non constat” is a precise pastoral directive that has been first published in 1987: “it is not permitted to organize either pilgrimages or other religious manifestations based on an alleged supernatural character attributed to Medjugorje’s events.” [see The Hidden Side of Medjugorje, p. 140 or http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com/2008/09/1987-press-release-by-cardinal-kuharic.html]

Let’s repeat: —  “it is not permitted to organize either pilgrimages or other religious manifestations based on an alleged supernatural character attributed to Medjugorje’s events.”

That instruction has been repeated by the CDF in 1998: [http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com/2008/09/are-pilgrimages-to-medjugorje-permitted.html] “Finally, as regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentification of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church.”

Mr. Ryan fails to understand that each of the religious manifestations organized with or without the visionaries in Medjugorje, with the Lady of Medjugorje [http://en.louisbelanger.com/2010/09/30/medjupedia-a-pause-?-the-construction-of-the-“lady-of-medjugorje”/] presented as the supernatural character “Gospa” or “Madona” or “Virgin Mary”, constitutes a mighty coup de force [takeover by force] against the competent authority that formulated the directive.

There is a thin line between intellectual hooliganism and spiritual hooliganism: bad faith…

Louis Bélanger

@MarkC -

More misdirection from Mark, this time a multiple straw man argument.  I thought the issue at hand was authenticity of a phenomenon alleged to be occurring in Eastern Europe?  Come on Mark, your intellectual dishonesty deceives noone here excluding yourself.

Your false claim of our closed mindedness regarding the pneumatological dimension of the Church is also false.  Let’s review the current pneumatological dimension of the Church on this matter:

1.)  Two Apostolic successors of Peter in full union with Magisterium of our Church, the Bishops of Mostar have declared the phenomenon Non constat de supernaturalitate.

2.)  The Church (new commission) always presumes phenomenon not to be authentic until determined otherwise.

You see Mark, the whole matter is really quite simple.  No amount of intellectual dishonesty, misdirection or illogic can change the facts of this matter.

Dear Mark. You have not been able to post one word from me that indicates I reject vatican Two - I don’t.  And you do not have the common decency to apologise for bearing false witness publicly. And now, on top of that, you presume to ask me a series of questions before apologising for bearing false witness.

And presumption is, sadly one of the fruits of those attached to apparitions. You demand others wait until the Church takes a final decision on whether or not it is an apparition of Mary yet you presume yourself to be at liberty to accuse others of rejecting an Ecumenical Council without one iota of evidence

Medj.  Flies.  Who needs them?

Buh bye, Mark

Louis and Donal please stop your self pity and crying. You all have attempted to make careers out of insulting,demeaning and condemning millions of Catholics who see something good in Medjugorje. You call the visonaires “full of lies” ..You call them frauds . You say they take orders from demonic visions.. All of your charges stem from your imaginations there is no proof of any of your charges and yet you insist I treat you politely. You act as if you have earned some authority or respect.

Let the vatican do there work

@Spartacus.  Your derisive comment regarding Protestantism as a source of renewal for Catholics is indication enough of your closed-mindedness regarding the infallible teaching of Vatican II regarding the life of grace outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church.  Your unwillingness to answer one (1) simple question regarding the teaching of Vatican II further underlines this.

This entire discussion has made clear the real problem re: Medjugorje is not the ecclesial commitment of devotees but rather the ill-informed and narrow minds of many of its most vociferous critics. If one does not accept the liturgy of Vatican II, the Ecumenism of Vatican II, then don’t waste our time with more peripheral discussions like these ..

Incidentally Spartacus, you allege that I reject the 20 Church Councils prior to Vatican II.  What proof do you have of that?

Mir!

@Mark/Ryan -

The ever increasing lack of peace and derision you both display regarding this topic speaks for itself.  Perhaps another trip to Eastern Europe is in order?  Evidently the alleged fruits you proclaim quickly wear off as indicated by both your behaviors.

@Dismas.  I’ve never been.  Perhaps that’s the problem!

Mir!

Perhaps.

Ryan, the only explanation is that the visionaries are liars.

The further outbursts from Ryan and MarkC only confirm what I said earlier about abusive language. It’s not as if I was suggesting that Vicka was dressing up in full episcopal regalia, with a mitre and crozier, or anything like that …but Klimek describing the Bishop of Mostar as a “renegade” on the Ministry Values website – now that’s something different, and altogether more serious.

@Louis Belanger – thanks for your support and for your timely pointing out of some home truths about Medjugorje which it’s more extreme supporters would do well to take on board.

I agree with the late Fr. Malachi Martin… “It was Satan from the beginning.” (http://starharbor.com/fr_martin/index1.html)

Michael, what evidence is there that it’s actually demonic rather than merely human?

Perhaps discussions like this one are one of the fruits of Medjugorge.

Discuss.

To all:

If something is of Truth then Christ is at the center.
I have never been to Medjugorie and I will wait for official approval of the Church.
I don’t care to be right. I want the Truth and only the Truth.
Although we are still asked to use reason to know if something is true or is not.
The best way to tell if something comes from God is to see:
a) Is God subject or object. Is the involved people beneficiaries (putting the light to their faces) or God is?
b) Does the event give people a clear lead towards the Cross or away from the Cross.
Jesus clearly stated that satan will not fight against his kingdom, so satan will not lead people to God.
Now, God will always making the best out of the worst, so it might be that the whole apparition is a result of pride and of these people. At the end, however, the fruits show that the Holy Spirit is in control.
Have faith. Christ is with us and will always be!
It is His Church!

Blessings,
Greg.

@everyone

I think I made an untrue statement about our Church in an earlier post:

Posted by Dismas on Sunday, Jul 31, 2011 9:22 AM (EDT):
@Ryan - The Catholic Church is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Although Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow; I’m not at all sure I can say this about our Church?  I think a more correct statement would have been ‘What the Catholic Church teaches is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.’  However, I’m not sure this is a fully true statement either since our Church and it’s members are constantly striving for a fuller understanding of the deposit of faith it contains.

I see that ryan and MarkC have now gone quiet, presumably to reflect on the use of that word “renegade” by Daniel Klimek on ryan’s website to describe Bishop Peric. Surely an apology for this gross insult is now required on the Ministry Values website, and either the removal or amendment of the offending article?

@Donal Foley.  Your narrow-mindedness and lack of credentials has been adequately exposed on this thread. Time now for you to slink away into the obscurity you deserve.

I have no connection to Ryan, Daniel and the Ministry Values website so I’ll let them address your thin accusation - if they so choose. However, I find the notion that no Bishop or clergyman should be subject to commentary or criticism for boorish behavior is presumptuous. One could point to the criticism of some contemporary Bishops for their (mis)handling of clergy sex abuse cases. Is that unwarranted?  I would note too that Medjugorje detractors have often been quick to criticize Cardinal Schonborn for perceived missteps.

Regarding legitimate criticism of actions of the Bishop of Medjugorje, I would recall that in 1984 - when Bishop Zanic released a statement asserting “moral certitude that the Medjugorje events are a case of collective hallucination” - Cardinal Hans Urs Von Balthasar, considered by many the greatest theologian of the last century (and who directed the doctoral studies of a young Ratzinger), responded with his own letter to Zanic:

“What a simply sad document you have dispatched throughout the world! I was deeply hurt to see the office of Bishop degraded in this fashion. Instead of having patience as You were advised by Your superiors, You thunder and hurl jupiter’s arrows, blackening renowned and innocent people, worthy of Your respect and protection. You repeatedly come up with accusations which have been proven untrue a hundred times over.”

@MarkC - you seem incapable of making a comment without being insulting. How sad.

For the record: von Balthasar withdrew his belief in the genuineness of the ongoing claims for apparitions at Medjugorje. Regrettably, he was less public in his retraction than in his original criticisms. He apparently told a group on retreat under him, around 1987, that he did believe in Medjugorje at one time but no longer. In any event, the result was no positive public statement on Medjugorje from him after this. This information comes from a personal communication to me from Fr Peter Joseph, the former Chancellor of the Maronite Diocese of Australia, who wrote the foreword to the original version of my book, and who was reliably informed about this at the time.

“Cardinal Hans Urs Von Balthasar, considered by many the greatest theologian of the last century (and who directed the doctoral studies of a young Ratzinger), responded with his own letter ...”

... which did not make him a successor to the apostles—although named a cardinal, he had not been elevated to the episcopate—let alone responsible for the curae animarae of the Diocese of Mostar. Brilliant, yes. Authoritative, not likely. There are any number of reasons for the Holy See to intervene in the matter of Medjugorje. That the two bishops who occupied the see of Mostar were considered mistaken, is not one of them.

@Donal Foley.  Someone told YOU that someone told HIM that Von Balthasar no longer believed in Medjugorje.  Therefore, the Von Balthsaar’s critique of Bishop Zanic’s petty behavior no longer stands. And we should all dutifully accept that. Is this what you call “scholarship”? One of the “fruits” of the critics of Medjugorje ..

Is it your position that the Bishops should be immune from any criticism by laypersons? So, are Irish Catholics prohibited from expressing their displeasure at the mishandling of clergy sex abuse by Irish Bishops??

@Mark C - in the nature of things since von Balthasar did not publicly repudiate his earlier position on Medjugorje, we have to rely on private sources - but I have no reason to doubt them.

@MarkC -

I’ll be the first to admit that I’m probably the dumbest person here reading your arguments, but even I see your blatant use of poisoning the well and straw man fallacies.  You do your cause much damage.

The retreatants told Joseph that Von Balthasaar told them he retracted his criticisms of Bishop Zanic? But he didn’t bother to do this publicly?!  And you don’t have a problem with this type of sourcing??!!

Utter sophistry.  Pat Archbald, are you listening?

No longer stands? How is the pro-Med community any different? “I know someone who knows someone who was cured”; “my boss’s nephew’s friend’s rosary turned to gold”; “I have it on good authority from someone closely associated with Ivan”, etc. Fruits. There’s more fruit in a bag of Starbursts.

Well, another wasted opportunity for those who believe in Medjugorje.
They could had taught us a lesson in humility and peace.  But it did not happen.

Isn’t peace and humility what the phenomena of Medjguorje is supposed to teach?
Medjugorje followers are not going to win people to believe in Medj. by being hostile to them. 
The “I am right”, “you are not”, attitude is a sign of pride in our hearts that needs to be rooted out if we want to become like Mary. 

I think this type of discussions do a disservice to the authenticity of Medjugorje.

I am always left sad after I learn that no one has shown the peace that it is said to be coming from Medjugorje in these discussions.

Peace,
Maria

“One of the ‘fruits’ of the critics of Medjugorje ...”

... upon whom there is no burden of proof. It is, rather, on those who support the phenomena at Medjugorje, a point overlooked by virtually all such supporters in this forum.

Let’s read that Catechism again, shall we?

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PH.HTM

Well said Maria.

Sing with me, everyone, once more with feeling, from the top, in full harmony, with full gusto:  “Non constat de supernaturalitate!”  This is the stance of the Catholic Church in the person of two local Bishops, every commission gathered to study Medjugorje, the official Zadar Declaration of 1991, and every single clarification ever published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Works for me.

Joe:  The Joseph Smith private revelations comparison is apt.  I’m surprised no one has drawn it before.  The same could be said of the Muhammad private revelations, wot.  I mean, those lasted over a 23-year period, and hundreds of millions believe it to this day.  Can I hear an amen?

Monsieur Belanger, great to see you back in the saddle.  Godspeed and health to you.

Mr Archbold, thanks for prompting a taste of the, uh (koff koff) fruits of Medjugorje.  Someone should print off this combox thread and mail it to Cardinal Ruini and the Commission now looking at Medjugorje with the lens of non-partisan truth.

http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2011/08/donal-foleys-po.html ... not everyone thinks Donal is narrow-minded, uncredentialed and obscure.

While some will be believe in Medjugorje no matter what someone says, others will not.Go there, see for your self, if you have found Our Lord and His Mother if you were lead back to the church to confession to Our Lord in the blessed sacraments. Daily Mass and The Rosary then the work of God is good it is love,God is love. You will find love and peace in your heart. To me that is the true gift of Medjugorje is: GOD.

Thanks Patrick. I’m glad that in his response Ryan put himself on record admitting “it’s not for [him] to judge” whether Mormonism is of God. That was a fatal admission for him to make, inasmuch as moral and theological agnosticism, and the relativism that follows from them, are equally the spirit of the modern age and the spirit of the Medjugorje phenomenon. It explains why he characterized Medjugorje as “an unsolved mystery” and it illustrates, more poignantly than any YouTube video, the abject naivety upon which the movement’s popularity and success rely. In that sense Medjugorje is perfectly timed, historically speaking, to profit from the catechetical crisis of the last 50 years, whose victims since the 1980s have had the youth and vigor, not to mention the means and opportunity, to participate fully and actively in the movement, if not usefully and idiotically. And in 1820, Joseph Smith found himself in almost exactly the same historical circumstance with regard to the condition of American Protestantism. Both movements promote adherence to the Natural Law and their followers enjoy the benefits of that conformity in their private and public lives, as is always the case regardless of creed. (Smith, however, promoted marital vocations somewhat more vigorously than the Medjugorje visionaries; but marrying and giving in marriage has always been a sign of the consummation of an age, as we all well know.) Only luck or the cooperation of a higher intelligence can transform a rag-tag band of rural youths into an economic and spiritual powerhouse in one generation, with or without cell phone video cameras or electroplated rosaries.

“To me that is the true gift of Medjugorje is: GOD.”

The “true gift” to which you refer can be found in any Catholic church in the world, even the one down the street. If anything has been authoritatively determined, it is that Medjugorje is not unique in this regard.

I was once happy to hear the news that Mary was appearing somewhere in the world when I was young.  I began reading about Medjugorje, going to conferences and being attentive to the messages. My heart was happy and could not believe that Mary was appearing to someone in my life time.
My life changed a bit.  I prayed the Rosary, I went to daily Mass, and
began living a better Christian life.  All of these I did because I had opened my heart to the IDEA that Mary could be appearing in Medjugorje.
But, I strongly believe that it was my going to Holy Mass that changed my life for the better.

I have no problem with people converting because of Medjugorje since God would work wonders in every circumstance.  People convert after fatal accidents, others convert during a stay in prision, or even after a bad experience or after a good experience, after having faced demons, after a dream, etc. etc. etc.

We open our hearts because we are in need of God.  God finds the heart open and He comes to dwell in it.  If one is willing to offer a place for God in the heart, He will come in.  So, if one opens the heart to God when having gone to a place such as Medjugorje, which looks like a beautiful place to go to, there is a high possibility that one would change his/her life and convert. 

Don’t forget that God is also in Medjguorje.  The Church has opened Its doors to the pilgrims going there and this makes it even more highly that people would be spiritualy changed.  With only one visit to St. James Catholic Church in Medjugorje and with the open heart and a will to seek and invite God in your heart, that is all one might need to find Him.

One true good confession done with a priest in Medjugorje would also invite God in that person’s life.  Receiving the Eucharist after having gone to confession, is surely the way to invite God in our hearts.

I believe that another song would be sung if there was nothing on that town, no Church of St. James, no priests, no Franciscan brothers, no Holy Sacraments, no sacramentals, nothing Christian nor Catholic.  Because I am certain that people have mistakenly named the incorrect source of
their conversion thanking the apparition of Medjguroje as if the apparition was from God when ,I think that, the graces for the true conversions come from the Holy Mass, the Sacrament of Penance and Confession, The Eucharist, Sacramentals and an open heart to God.

I thank God for the true conversions happening around the globe!
Peace,
Maria

I recently returned from Medjugorje. I have not only studied it but experienced it. If and until the Church rules otherwise, I am convinced of its authenticity.

However, it is disturbing to read such certainty from doubters who have never visited and don’t even have their facts straight. Words like “hoax” and “fake” are thrown around using as little caution as when today’s famed anti-theists (Hitchens, Dawkins, et. al.) slander all religious beliefs. Why is it that people can’t just say, “I don’t believe it.” Rather, they have to emotionally condemn it in the strongest terms.

There have been numerous scientific investigations of Medjugorje’s visionaries, leaving scientists baffled. To anyone who is not clueless, the abundant Spiritual fruit of Medjugorje are undeniable.

The fact is that the Church has not ruled on it, yet. Medjugorje is still under investigation. However, on August 15, 1993, His Eminence Cardinal Dr. Franjo Kuharic’, Archbishop of Zagreb, was quoted in the Croatian, Roman Catholic newspaper, Glas Koncila, saying, “We bishops, after a three-year-long commission study accept Medjugorje as a holy place, as a shrine. This means that we have nothing against it if someone venerates the Mother of God in a manner and in agreement with the teaching and belief of the Church. Therefore, we are leaving that to further study. The Church does not hurry.”

The Church has not ruled against Medjugorje and so people should stop acting as if it has.

“The fact is that the Church has not ruled on it, yet.”

You could not be more wrong, nor could you be paying any less attention to documentation provided in this forum on a repeated basis. She most certainly HAS ruled on it, through the local bishop, which is the ordinary means of doing so. The intervention of the Holy See was due to a number of factors, and does not change this. Until then—pay attention, this is the part you can’t argue with—the phenomenon at Medjugorje is presumed not to be authentic, until ruled otherwise.

To compare Medjugorje to Mormonism or Islam is highly prejudicial. The Medjugorje messages have been demonstrated to be in full conformity with Catholic teaching and, in fact, a call to “return to the deepest traditions of our Catholic faith” by at least one Catholic Mariologist of note - Patrick Coffin’s former colleague - Dr. Mark Miravalle (http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/articles/mark-miravalle/).

No one is “forced” to accept or believe in Medjugorje.  The whole area of private revelation is entirely optional for Catholics. At the same time, however, to put up disingenuous barriers for those who find edification there and wish to “pray, fast, confess” (according to the messages)- is contrary to the Gospel. The silly arguments posed by opponents - Vicka is “impersonating a Bishop” or comparing the Medjugorje messages to the Joseph Smith revelations or insinuating that private pilgrimages are somehow “disobedient” shows a lack of seriousness or, worse, a desire to manipulate others.

Maria, you raise a valid point: there is no need to make a pilgrimage to Medjugorje to convert (in the sense of reorienting ourselves to God).  We have all of the means at our disposal right at home - prayer, the Sacraments ... However, the fact remains that Medjugorje is the “largest confessional in the world”.  Millions of pilgrims and significant numbers of confessions, conversions, vocations etc.  So, if this can be replicated in Detroit or Washington, or Los Angeles then, why not do it?  The answer may be that the hand of God has selected Medjugorje, the Mother of God is present there in an anointed way.

Is this strange or different?  Padre Pio had no more sacramental powers than the priest at your parish - why did people flock to him and confess to him and convert etc. Why do pilgrims flock to Lourdes or Fatima or Guadalupe?  It is simply a matter of a special unique grace or annointing - God’s free gift.  All are free to accept or reject.  But we ought not place barriers before pilgrims when the Church herself does not do so. 

“Non constat de supernaturalitate”, Mr. Patrick Coffin, means the phenomenon is still an open question - no definitive judgement has been made (the local Bishop’s personal opinion notwithstanding). The matter is now in the hands of the international commission. So, in the absence of prohibition - freedom.  In the immortal words of our late Pope John Paul II: “Let the people go to Medjugorje, if they convert, pray, confess, do penance and fast.”

Mr. Alexander, get on the phone immediately! Obviously, Pope Benedict does not realize that his continuing investigation is completely unnecessary. You need to inform him that the Church “most certainly HAS ruled on it.”

But, seriously, please try to discern why your passion is so pronounced on this matter.

Ken: As I mentioned before (at least three times now, perhaps to an audience unaware of the distinction between passion and certainty), there were other factors which led to the Holy See’s launching an inquiry, none of which change the decision of the Bishop of Mostar. I am dealing here with an unassailable premise. I don’t have to call anyone. You, on the other hand, need to read this: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PH.HTM

don’t you guys think that our focus should be on the word of God

I like Randall Sullivan’s description of the visionaries of Medjugorje in his excellent book, “The Miracle Detective.” He said that whenever they are confronted by non-believers, they don’t argue. They don’t get upset. They act as if they are just the mailman, delivering the mail.

After less than a day of finding out about this thread, I can see that all the vitriol and venom here is not worth pursuing. I pray that all of you will find the peace of Medjugorje, and I am discontinuing my notices regarding future postings.

MarkC, would you then agree that if there was no pastoral guidance in Medjugorje, no confession, no Mass, nothing of that, only the apparition and the seer’s talking with people, that it would be more difficult for
people supporting the apparition of Medjugorje to point out that Medj. is as you put it “Largest confessional in the world”?

As I remember well, it was suggested that there should be pastoral guidance of the people who go to Medjugorje by past commissions.
Pastoral Guidance would include confessions. 
I believe that after the many thousands if not millions of people who go to Medj. the Bishop has the responsibility to guide the parish and help It with the pastoral necessities of those who go there. 
peace,
Maria

Mariz: The authority “to bind and to loose” whether in heaven or on earth, an extension of the ancient rabbinical authority, was given by Christ to all the Apostles. You want the word of God, that’s the word of God, and all binding divine revelation ended with the death of the writer of the last Gospel. Mother Church has seen fit to recognize this authority in the Bishop of Mostar. I defy any participant in this forum, to identify any official statement by any body of the Holy See (not to be confused with a private opinion) that has overruled the decision of that bishop. And just as a reminder, forming a committee is not the same thing.

David,  Spartacus quotes, above, from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:  “The Apostolic See (the Vatican) can also intervene at the request of the local bishop himself, at the request of a group of the faithful, or on its own initiative.”

I don’t know if this is what you refer to as a commission.  I am truly trying to understand this:  If the bishop’s statement on an apparition is always final, then why would there be any purpose at all in the above statement from the Congregation?  It would seem that the only role of the Vatican in any apparition would be to state, “Listen to the bishop.  We have no further comment to make.”  And yet the Vatican is looking into Medjugorje.

Some people have indicated that they think the Vatican has not spoken essentially because they don’t want to upset the followers of Medjugorje.  But I hardly think that the Vatican would be so irresponsible.  Some of the controversial statements from the seers and controversial behavior from those associated with the apparition site have been known, apparently, since the early ‘80’s.  If there is serious error, it would hardly be responsible for Rome to just sit on a decision.  They would be leaving more and more people to fall into error through Medjugorje if that were the case.

So what is the purpose of the Vatican taking over the investigation of this apparition?  Also, what is the difference between the status of, say, Medjugorje and the status of apparitions that have been condemned.  Hasn’t an apparition at Bayside been condemned?  Was that bishop’s statement different from the statement of the bishop in Medjugorje?

“If the bishop’s statement on an apparition is always final, then why would there be any purpose at all in the above statement from the Congregation?”

There are any number of reasons in this case, besides the bishop’s statement on the phenomena itself, that would cause Rome to intervene. There are members of a religious order who have been disobedient (whatever the merits). There are over ten thousand messages to examine, which, if other apparitions are any indication, could take over a century to examine under normal circumstances. Remember also, that for much of the history of these apparitions, Bosnia wasn’t exactly the most stable part of the world. One of the things that has largely been (repeatedly) misunderstood about Medjugorje, and apparitions in general, concerns the burden of proof. Proponents will say that the apparitions are presumed to be real, for whatever reason, until the Church says otherwise. But the Church says (right here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PH.HTM) that the apparitions are NOT presumed to be real, until the Church (generally in the person of the local bishop) says otherwise. If people are continuing to “fall into error,” it is not because Rome isn’t doing anything, it is because the Church has spoken on this issue (see link above), and the people aren’t listening. As things currently stand, the judgment of the local bishop, and what the Catechism says (see link above), are sufficient guidance for anyone concerning Medjugorje, whatever their opinion.

The Catholic Catechism has been referenced here quite a bit. I think it is important to understand that the Catholic Catechism’s “Editorial Director” is Cardinal Schonborn - Cardinal Schonborn effectively has been in charge of the Catholic Rule book and yet he was comfortable inviting the seers into his own cathedral to experience an apparition.

@Louis Belanger - After this dialog in this combox i am convinced that Donal Foley is not credible.
Perhaps you have something to add that will allow me to see the skeptics side with an open mind.
I have had discussions with you before and you have a tendency to be extraordinarily verbose and wordy so I plead that you be succinct.(if you care to respond
You say you went to Medjugorje because you were depressed after your mother died You also say the apparitions were invented after one of the seers’ (Ivanka)  mother died - she was also depressed. Is it possible that you have concocted a theory about Medjugorje based on your own experiance and bias. I am willing to listen

David, thank you.  I do understand about the status of apparitions, that we should not automatically assume an apparition is authentic.  I suppose we should not automatically assume it is false, either, although I would personally think skepticism is a healthy point of view to take toward this type of thing.  But as far as the Vatican having thousands of messages to go through before commenting on Medjugorje, I could see that they need to read and examine everything before declaring the apparition authentic, but they don’t need to read it all before saying it is definitely NOT authentic.  Just reading through the claims in this blog’s comments, some of which I find very concerning, would seem to give them enough to put an end to devotion to this apparition.  I am sure they are hearing from those who are convinced that a 30 year fraud is taking place in Medjugorje.  Wouldn’t it make sense to investigate the most controversial aspects first?  Then, if those concerns were determined to be valid, it would be truly important for the Vatican to speak.  There are solid Catholics, not given to flights of fancy, who have been deeply affected for the good at Medjugorje.  Would it make sense to say, “We are worried about alienating those who had an apparently positive experience there”, while allowing people to continue to be misled by the thousands, year after year, at this apparition site?  The fact that the Vatican has stepped in and has NOT condemned the apparition seems, to me, to be a reason for one’s mind to remain open to the possibility of its authenticity.  Not that that means anyone has to believe in Medjugorje - we clearly do not.  But I don’t see that anyone can say at this point that it is wrong for other people to go to Medjugorje.

I still don’t see that the statement by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith says that the bishop always has the final word in regard to the validity of an apparition.  I followed the link you provide.  Do you realize that it doesn’t say anything about the bishop being the one to make the call on an apparition?  It does say this, though:  “Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.”  Actually, I find that statement to be kind of fuzzy, giving quite a bit of weight to the opinion of the faithful.  But it is what your link to the CCC says.  And according to the CDF statement, the local bishop is not the only member of the Magisterium who has a role in the discernment process.  I have to repeat that I don’t have a stake in Medjugorje.  I am just someone who has read comments on both sides and do find a weakness in the statements that say “the bishop has spoken and if you still go to Medjugorje you are being disobedient”.  I don’t see Church documents supporting that position, including the document quoted by Spartacus and the link that you provided.

The author of the Catholic Catechism, Cardinal Schonborn has invited the seers to his Cathedral and thanked them for there faith and good works. This is a significant (historical?) occurrence that turns Patrick Coffin blue in the face holding his breath in anger until everybody agrees with him.  Patrick Coffin’s belief is that the author of the Catholic Catechism, Cardinal Schonborn is misguided disobedient fool. 

  When are the Med skeptics going to let go of the disobedience nonsense

My Children, Praise Be Jesus!

Most any question has already been addressed by Bishop Peric himself at his diocesan website.  His documents corrrect many of the myths,  confusion and untruths produced to disorient you by the Secular Pro-Medjugorje Media Sites.  Bishop Peric alone has been especially prepared and given to you as a special gift in these most confusing days.  His teaching and guidance is crystal clear.  Please my children, I beg you as your loving Mother, read Bishop Perics’ documents and be obedient to his guidance.  Peace.

http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?menuID=98

Medjugorje (English)

Statements of Bishop Peri?

•1 September 2007: Medjugorje: Secrets, messages, vocations, prayers, confessions, commissions
•31 May 2004: The truth both frees us and binds us

Statement of Mons. Pavao Žani?, bishop of Mostar-Duvno 1980-1993

•July 1987: Declaration concerning Medjugorje
•May 1990: The truth about Medjugorje

Homilies of Bishop Peri? at Medjugorje, including pastoral directives

•6 June 2009: Bishop’s homily in Medjugorje [Hrvatski, Italiano]
•9 June 2007: Bishop’s homily in Medjugorje [Hrvatski]
•15 June 2006: Bishop’s homily in Medjugorje [Hrvatski, Italiano]
•24 April 2005: Bishop’s homily in Medjugorje [Hrvatski, Italiano]
•14 June 2001: Bishop’s homily in Medjugorje [Hrvatski, Italiano]
•1 July 2000: Bishop’s homily in Medjugorje [Hrvatski, Italiano]

Review and analysis of the Medjugorje phenomenon

•11 December 2009: Questionable games surrounding the “great sign”
Articles

•1 March 2005: Apparitions True and False (Fr. Peter Joseph)
•Prof. Krammerer: Critical study on the scientific tests

News and Communiques

•16 January 2010: Letter of Cardinal Schönborn to Bishop Peri?
•2 January 2010: Statement regarding the visit of Card. Schönborn to Medjugorje
•27 February 2009: The Bishop’s letter to those in charge of the “Oasis of Peace” community in Medjugorje
•15 December 2008: Bishop’s letter to Sr. Elvira, and her reply
•31 August 2008: The Canonical status of Rev. Father Tomislav Vlaši?, OFM
•31 August 2008: Fra Tomislav Vlaši? “within the context of the Medjugorje phenomenon”
•27 June 2008: Press release regarding the alleged commission on Medjugorje
•18 June 2006: Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa O.F.M. Cap. will not direct spiritual retreat in Medjugorje [Hrvatski, Italiano]

@ryan,

Donal Foley’s attempt to argue “via grapevine” that Cardinal Hans Urs Von Balthasaar changed his view on Medjugorje shortly before his death exposes him for the academic fraud which he is.  However, his lack of scholarship and perspective had already been demonstrated many times over. 

Louis Belanger is a “parapsycologist”.  What does that make him in laymen’s terms, a “ghosthunter” (who you gonna call?!)? And they wish to allege that Cardinal Schonborn, and Cardinal Von Balthasaar, and Pope John Paul II, and Mother Theresa, and Mother Angelica and Fr. Laurentin, and Fr. Scanlon, et. al. have no credibility on Medjugorje?!  To quote a certain roundheaded philosopher, “Good grief” ..

From the Author of the Catholic Catechism

Earlier this month Cardinal Christoph Schönborn was interviewed on Radio “Mir” Medjugorje and spoke warmly about his private visit to Medjugorje during Christmas and New Year 2009/10.

The Cardinal stated that his decision to go to Medjugorje came about as a result of visiting the “mother house” of the Cenacolo Community in Saluzzo, Italy, for its annual “Festival of Life” in the summer of 2009. He said he was aware of the deep connection between Medjugorje and the Cenacolo Community and how the Community has spread to the entire world and gives active and visible witness to the power of the resurrection of the Lord. He said he also wanted to use his time in Medjugorje for silence and meditation.

When asked what he particularly remembered about his pilgrimage the cardinal said he remembered in a special way the celebration of the Eucharist at the midnight vigil Mass (New Year’s Eve) with many thousands of pilgrims present. He also remembered with gratitude his meeting with the Franciscan priests and, as a Dominican, he felt a strong association with the Franciscans.

Climbing the two hills in Medjugorje was another special memory of the cardinal. He revealed that he ascended Cross Mountain with Sr Elvira, founder of the Cenacolo Community, and it had been a special and strong experience.

Cardinal Schönborn said the memories of his meetings with four of the visionaries, Marija, Mirjana, Ivanka and Vicka are carved deep in his heart and he is full of gratitude for the outstanding hospitality in their homes.

The cardinal also revealed he spent time on pilgrimage as a priest hearing confessions and added that the “secret” of Medjugorje, like Lourdes, is the close proximity of Our Lady, and is reason why pilgrims come.

He said his first encounter with Medjugorje was in the early 80’s through a prayer group based in a Vienna church and he observed how people were living and praying in a special way for hours every week, praying the Rosary with their heart, coming before the Blessed Sacrament, and celebrating the Eucharist. He saw the group’s willingness and commitment as a sign that speaks of truth. Cardinal Schönborn then spoke of the many prayer groups formed in Austria through Medjugorje, how the people in the groups have deepened their faith and Christian life, infused with the Eucharist, and give witness and testimonies of healings. He added that 12 years ago the Church acknowledged and recommended “Oase des Friendens”, an association that monitors and supports Medjugorje prayer groups in Austria.

The cardinal was asked if he could say anything about the “fruits” in his country and responded that the “fruits” were baskets of Medjugorje fruits. He mentioned there were strong priestly vocations stemming from the Medjugorje fruits, many conversions, families strengthened in faith, recovery from addictions…

Cardinal Schönborn then discussed the Medjugorje messages and thanked God that they were not “original”. He said that if they were sensational all would have surely disappeared because it is impossible for each week, each month, every year, to give sensational messages. On a personal basis he regarded the messages as simple and almost like an alphabet for living as a Christian: a continuing call to prayer, to conversion, to reconciliation and to peace, acknowledged by Our Lady’s words “Thank you for responding to my call”.

The cardinal said millions of people around the world read the messages and recognise the call of the Mother of God in their lives because of the messages; they are reminded every month to pray, to reconcile and to love the Virgin Mary. He added that through this “school” Mary invites us to follow Jesus, to look at her Son, to listen to him, to imitate him, and that “Do whatever he tells you” were Mary’s first words to the people. He stressed that “Do whatever he tells you” is the core of the Medjugorje messages.

Cardinal Schönborn was then asked if he could give a special message to the parishioners of Medjugorje and the people of BiH and Croatia. He responded by saying how striking it was that at the beginning (of the apparitions) Our Lady’s messages were directed to the people of the parish and it seemed that if Heaven was preparing Medjugorje for something special then its residents must be involved. He said it would be difficult for the peace of Medjugorje to spread if the residents did not live this peace and that this “education” by Our Lady was truly wonderful for the parish, to become a “tool” for the Queen of Peace.

The cardinal then mentioned there would be a Prayer Meeting for Peace in the Vienna this coming Novemember, the fourth time such a gathering will take place in the Cathedral, and confirmed that some of the Medjugorje visionaries will participate and he has approved the meeting. He said the Cathedral can be regarded as the heart of Austria and this great movement of prayer within the country that has brought many blessings must have a place in the Cathedral, and gratitude should be expressed that this encounter can take place there.

Cardinal Schönborn concluded the interview by expressing his thanks to all engaged in this type of work. He thanked the Medjugorje parish, the Franciscans in Medjugorje, and said that all are in his heart and prayers with great joy and gratitude.

“The Catholic Catechism has been referenced here quite a bit ...”

... in the hope that some in this venue will go out on a limb and actually read the relevant portion.

“David, thank you. I do understand about the status of apparitions, that we should not automatically assume an apparition is authentic. I suppose we should not automatically assume it is false, either ...”

Well, actually ... Saint John of the Cross said that any private revelation should be presumed to be of diabolical origin, unless proved otherwise. We have all we need to know without them, but are by nature easily attracted to signs and wonders (about which we were warned in the “word of God”). The Evil One knows this, and “in the last days, [will] appear as an angel of light, and succeed in deceiving even the elect.” (Oooh, there’s that “word of God” again.)

As to Cardinal Schonborn, his role in compiling the Catechism—he had a lot of help, by the way, and was confined to specific references that were not his own; they’re called “footnotes”—and his own opinions regarding Medjugorje don’t really change anything. Any attributions to “disobedience” on his part come from a host of other controversies (which are too numerous to go into here) including public statements he has made on matters of Faith, and the administration of his diocese, particularly in regard to abuses of the Sacred Liturgy.

@Maria. I’m sorry I don’t understand your point. Are you saying Medjugorje would have no efficacy without the presence of the Church there? I wholeheartedly agree!  Our Mother exhorts us and points us to Christ and the Church. As the Holy Father Pope Benedict beautifully put it at World Youth Day in Madrid, “I am only the vicar. I point beyond myself to the Other who is in our midst.”

@david Alexander

So you are just the boss of everybody… Schonborn bad .. Bishop Peric good. Mr. ALexander has spoken.

by the way

“After several years of ecclesiastical service in various pastoral and educational settings, Cardinal Schönborn has gained international prominence for his work as Director of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) the greatest single reference work on Catholic doctrine today.”
Alexander you are border line sinister with your disinformation and lies. Relegating Schonborn’s Directorship of the Catechism as a man who contributed footnotes and chastising his work as a Cardinal of the Catholic Church is about a low as one can get.

“Alexander you are border line sinister with your disinformation and lies.”

Hmmm, pretty tough talk for somebody with no proof.

Most of my remarks have been based on information from the Catechism regarding private revelations. I repeatedly include it to avoid the accusation of having fabricated anything. (Obviously you’re way too clever to fall for that, eh?)

The quotation from John of the Cross is from Father Benedict Groeschel’s book “A Still Small Voice” published by Ignatius. I recommend it for anyone regarding private revelations. (There, another citation.) John of the Cross is also footnoted in the relevant portion of the Catechism. And no, I don’t have any attributions regarding any malfeasance on the part of Cardinal Schonborn, and I conceded this. (I know someone who does: http://cathcon.blogspot.com/search/label/Cardinal Schönborn) And it does not “relegate” a man to suggest that he was not alone in editing such a magnum opus as the Catechism. What does matter, is that he is Archbishop of Vienna, not Bishop of Mostar. Yes, in this case, that matters.

In fairness, “Archbishop of Vienna” is not too shabby, nor is being of noble birth.

@david L Alexander

Your disinformation (lies) comes from you relegating Cardinal Schonborn’s to a man who contributed “footnotes” to the writing of the Catholic Catechism when in fact he had one of the most important roles in the compilation of this important book

In addition he Co-Authored with Pope Benedict the XVI the book “Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church” By Pope Benedict XVI, Christoph Schönborn

you also smear him with inuendo because some BLOGGER wrote something.

Actually I thought the Catechism was given to us by the Church Fathers but reproposed by Blessed Pope John Paul II at the suggestion of Bernard Cardinal Law based on insights in speeches made by then Cardinal Ratzinger?

It seems to me that anyone suggesting that Cardinal Christoph Schönborn authored the Catholic Catechism is either misinformed or just…well….stupid.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/NCOFCC.HTM

“In 1985, our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, summoned an extraordinary session of the International Synod of Bishops. This was to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the closing of the Second Vatican Council, which concluded in 1965. The purpose of this extraordinary assembly was to see what effect the Council had on the Universal Church in the twenty years that had passed since its closing. In the course of that extraordinary assembly of the International Synod of bishops, a proposal was made by Bernard Cardinal Law, the Archbishop of Boston, to issue a universal catechism, a compendium of the Catholic Faith.”

“On June 22, 1994, the English-speaking world began to enjoy the fruit of the intervention of Cardinal Law in 1985, and of the far-sighted and fore-sighted speeches of Cardinal Ratzinger in 1983.”

@dismas

from the stupid guy

Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church By Pope Benedict XVI, Christoph Schönborn

you can buy it here at Amazon

http://books.google.com/books?id=U9IPGI1-sbkC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=schonborn+ratzinger&source=bl&ots=romelRMwTK&sig=ZhV2nR_vE9rQKwQzcVLqYRl8K90&hl=en&ei=3OJDTqGGA4m50AGS6LDKBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=schonborn ratzinger&f=false

@dismas

By the way you know precisely what I meant regarding Schonborn role in the development of the Catechism.  I said above “he had one of the most important roles in the compilation of this important book”

Playing “gotcha” is really a “stupid” waste of time mr. dismas

@ryan -

Yes I know precisely what you meant, you stated your position twice in the following posts:

Posted by ryan on Thursday, Aug 11, 2011 8:02 AM (EDT):“The author of the Catholic Catechism, Cardinal Schonborn”

Posted by ryan on Thursday, Aug 11, 2011 10:14 AM (EDT): relegating Cardinal Schonborn’s to a man who contributed “footnotes” to the writing of the Catholic Catechism when in fact he had one of the most important roles in the compilation of this important book

I think your choice of the second option, stupid, over the first option, misinformed, is the most correct one.  What I still can’t figure out, however, is what connection you are trying to make between Carninal Schonborn’s involvement in the newest release of the Catechism and an alleged phenonemon taking place where he is not the diocesan bishop nor has any episcopal responsiblity for?

I’m sorry to see that ryan and MarkC are still in insult mode. What is to be gained by insulting people?

@Kenneth E. Nowell – regarding your point about the scientific tests on the visionaries, in fact, these were quite lacking in rigor as I demonstrate in chapter 13 of my book, which can be read here:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/medjugor/13medical-scientific.pdf

Some of the visionaries were quite uncooperative and most importantly, since these tests were not sanctioned by the Church, they have no ultimate validity.

Regarding Randall Sullivan’s book, unfortunately, it is far from “excellent” – he allowed himself to be too caught up in the whole Medjugorje scene and lost objectivity.

@MarkC – I don’t see a problem with using information from a very reliable priest – Fr Peter Joseph, which he was given by someone (probably a fellow priest) who attended a retreat given by von Balthasar. Certainly that is likely to be a far more accurate source of information than some of the things said by certain visionaries. For example there is Vicka regarding the incident where she alleged that the visionaries had been abducted; but on the original tapes there is nothing to support this claim. The relevant section of my book can be seen here:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/medjugor/vicka-abduction.pdf

Incidents like these are of far more significance than the position of von Balthasar or Cardinal Schönborn regarding Medjugorje.

@dismas

Cardinal Schonborn is a good friend of the Pope. He is an esteemed intellectual. He has invited the seers in to his Cathedral to thank them for their good work. he has been to medjugorje If you think that is not a relevant factor than well .. you are ______

Mr. Dismas religion, spirituality and the supernatural are not bound by some court of law.

@Donal Foley

1. “Regarding Randall Sullivan’s book, unfortunately, it is far from “excellent”
2. “about the scientific tests on the visionaries, in fact, these were quite lacking in rigor as I demonstrate in chapter 13”

Foely you really need to move on..

@ryan -

For once, we agree!  Your statement is correct “Mr. Dismas religion, spirituality and the supernatural are not bound by some court of law.”

It’s not bound by the Ryan court of Law.  It’s bound by our Church.  Jesus Christ granted our Church this power to it’s Apostles.  Our Church recognizes this power in our Bishops who hold this power over the diocese of their jurisdication.  Our Church always presumes phenomenon not to be authentic until proven otherwise.  I knew you would get this eventually.

HALLELUJAH!!!!  AMEN!!!!

But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:9

Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Matthew 18:18

Jesus declared:

“I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children” 
 
Mathew 11.25

Fr. Benedict Groeschel points out in his book “Still, Small Voice – A practical Guide On Reported Revelations” that true virtue in discernment lies between the extremes of incredulity and credulousness.  He makes other observations quite on point to this discussion:

“What is one to do with all these reports? The two easiest responses – skepticism on the one hand and unbounded credulity on the other – are both unintelligent when one considers all the authentic as well as fraudulent revelations of the past. The truth is to be found between skepticism and credulity. This is not an easy path to walk. The following suggestions are culled from many informed writers, especially Poulain, and may prove helpful.”

“It is strangely observable that the reports of alleged revelations attract prejudiced people, that is, those who prejudge, or judge before the facts are known. All shrines appear to have their friends and foes. The friends refuse to hear criticism and the foes refuse to hear anything good… It has been my observation that those opposed to a revelation are often victims of pre-existing prejudice, such as pseudo-scientific attitudes against any miraculous phenomena, hostility to the form of piety expressed at the event, and so forth. This kind of hateful response may lead to character assassination and calumny. If one must be careful not to be carried along by the credulous, one must also resist the contrasting incredulity. The skeptical inquirer may not be any more objective than the devotee.”

Well, I’m back from running errands. Now then ...

That Cardinal Schonborn was a significant contributor to the Catechism, by virtue of being editor, is not in dispute; rather, he simply was not alone in preparing it. And even if he were, that does not excuse any misjudgments he may have made at any time since then (which would be true of any of us). Further, applying footnotes to his work (assuming he DID compose it all by himself) is a prudent measure of tying the work to the tradition and constant teaching of the Church. His less than stellar judgment in other areas was presented through a weblog, in the form of accounts from various news services, including video clips as supporting evidence. In the last decade, blogs have become a staple of the mainstream media, including the Catholic media. For those who doubt this, consider that this story on which we are commenting appears (drumroll!) on a blog.

Concerning the quotation from Groeschel, most of his book takes a rather skeptical view of private revelations, as does the Church. The remarks presented here could well apply to anyone. Keep in mind that, while private revelations do indeed happen to God’s people, the operative word is “private.” God speaks to each of us, even privately; what He says is binding on us, and to the degree that it applies only to us personally (as in a private revelation), it is not binding on others in and of itself. The last public revelation in the Church ended with the death of the last Apostle.

The Church may determine that a private revelation is likely to be of supernatural origin, is not a danger to faith and morals, and that the faithful may not seek to further discredit it. This is the case of Fatima, for example. The faithful may be encouraged towards devotion, and pilgrimages may be organized there. But even in the case of Fatima, one is not required to assent to the messages with the virtue of Faith.

And again, if the past is any indication, the investigation of over ten thousand messages from the seers at Medjugorje could take over a century to complete. Until then, it could not possibly be on the same level as Fatima.

Private revelations do matter. They mattered to the nine million Mestizo Indians who converted to Christianity and thus survived as a people, as Catholics, because of an apparition, a miracle and Our lady of Guadalupe.

Private revelations mattered to the native Americans who lived above the Rio Grande who were slaughtered and ethically cleansed and sent to internment camps and reservations by our protestants brothers who deny Mary as the Mediatrix.  ” Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself “in the middle,” that is to say she acts as a mediatrix not as an outsider, but in her position as mother. She knows that as such she can point out to her Son the needs of mankind, and in fact, she “has the right” to do so. Her mediation is thus in the nature of intercession: Mary “intercedes” for mankind.” JPII

“nine million Mestizo Indians”???LOL
Ryan you are quite ignorant.
Definition of Meztizo:Mestizo is a term traditionally used in Latin America and Spain for people of mixed European and Native American heritage or descent.

Now you are referring about the 9 million indians that converted to Christianity in the 1500s from the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe and all the Catholics around the world who visit her Shrine in Mexico City.

“the Indians, who learned through pictures and symbols in their culture of the image, grasped the meaning of the tilma, which revealed the beautiful message of Christianity: the true God sacrificed himself for mankind, instead of the horrendous life they had endured sacrificing humans to appease the frightful gods! It is no wonder that over the next seven years, from 1531 to 1538, eight million natives of Mexico converted to Catholicism”!

What i meant to say is Our Lady of Guadlupe in the image represents the Mestizo spanish/indian

4million 9million the point is there were a lot mr. smarty pants

“4million 9million the point is there were a lot mr. smarty pants”

Actually, the image of Our Lady represents the Native Americans of the region, not so much those of mixed blood (mestizo/mestiza), as there would not have been a significant amount of intermarriage by that time. Remember, we’re talking about only a few generations after the Spaniards’ arrival, so there was some, but hardly in the millions. If one is going to use numbers, it pays to use those of which one is certain. That way “the point” isn’t lost because one used incorrect data to make it.

I’m not trying to get away from the subject, but many think that Mestizo EQUALS indians and it is not the same thing.
Get your facts right.
Which by the way is the real root of the problem with the Medjugorje issue.
The problem here is that many who defend the apparition are not listening to the two Bishops of the Diocesis of the area of Medjugorje and many instead attack them and question their authority.
Anyone who studies some basic history of the Church especially when dialing with the Supernatural and the preternatural must realize the danger in disobendience to the bishops who are the representatives of the apostles period.

One more thing ryan, Our Lady of Guadalupe actually represents and I have study this, the union of the two races the white with the indian, as design by heaven.
That is why her eyes are green and her skin is brown.
Get your facts right.
Your ignorance in many subjects is showing.

There were millions of indigenous people who converted because of a private revelation south of the Rio Grande that is my point. Private revelations matter. forget my incorrect/confusing use of the word mestiza.

wtf .. It is exactly what I am saying - Our Lady IS a Mestizo -A mix of Spanish and native America. and it is through this private revelation that converted the indigenous people.

Also you need to get you facts correct as well. I have never “attacked” the bishop in this combox. Nobody in this combox has attacked the Bishop of Mostar.(if an article I published “attacked the bishop, well like any “news” magazine we publish a lot of things - please no more “gotcha”) You like so many perpetuate the lie that pro-Med people “attack” the Bishop. My position on the Bishop is that his opinion of Medjugorje is his personal opinion (the church has spoken) and I am faithful to the guidance of the Holy Mother Church on the matter of medjugorje.

“wtf .. It is exactly what I am saying - Our Lady IS a Mestizo -A mix of Spanish and native America. and it is through this private revelation that converted the indigenous people.”

Nope you were not saying that, you were saying the “meztizo indians”

You need to understand that the apparition of Our Lady Guadalupe in Mexico was to convert the Aztects to Christianity and leave their paganism, and to bring the two races together, the white and indians.
You come out as to saying that Our Lady only appear to convert the indians.
That wasn’t the only intend and purpose of the apparition.
Private revelation do matter as long as they don’t bring about new doctrines contrary to Church teaching, such as ALL FAITH ARE THE SAME.

By the way they are not!

Mr. Ryan wrote : “if an article I published “attacked the bishop [vg “the renegade bishop of Mostar” - 2010-11-06 on “Ministry Values”], well like any “news” magazine we publish a lot of things”.

How edifying is that excuse from the editor of “News for Growing Christians”!

Mr. Ryan wrote: “You like so many perpetuate the lie that pro-Med people “attack” the Bishop.”

Mr. Ryan wrote: “Bishop Cauchon used his authority to burn Joan of Arc to death,  He put to death, a nineteen year old virgin devoted to the Catholic church who gave her life to God. Bishop Peric, perhaps if he lived in an earlier era,  would pursue even more aggressive measures to stop Medjugorje than he is currently undertaking against the seers if he had his way.” [http://www.ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=749&Itemid=127] 2009-09-30

Mr. Ryan wrote: “Who is to say Bishop of Mostar is more right than Bishop Cauchon. He is just a man he brings nothing new . all he brings is his ego, pride and self much like Bishop Cauchon. He is a nobody unless he can bring something new. He only brings empty words. Never forget that Bishops can be and have been evil and wrong.” [combox: http://www.ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=749&Itemid=127] 2009-10-01

Who is lying?

Louis Bélanger

Please spare me your “gotcha” I think I have straightened out my use of the word mestizo. 

It seems to always come down to the idea that Our Lady at Medjugorje claims “all Faith are the same” for medjugorje doubters . By the way the issue of “all faiths the same” is actually a worthwhile discussion because it gets away from the “disobedience/attacking the local bishop/hoax etc,

Ryan, I think anyone following this can see that Louis really “gotcha.”

Mr. Belanger, I forgot about that one :).. Youthful indiscretion .

The point is now that the church is quite clear on Mr. Peric’s role and the Vatican’s efforts to investigate Medjugorje both “sides’ can let the Church do its work.  I do stand by my comments about Bishop Cauchon who sent Joan of Arc to the Pyre. The Bishop is a sad example of Bishops being wrong on issues relating to private revelations.

But is is interesting that you bring up an old article of mine. It seems to be a pattern that anti-med folks pounce on an indiscretion, an inconsistency from a long time ago and grab hold of it and not let go and from that point forward nothing else matters

Both you and Foley are fixated on what happened the first couple of days .. the whole “three more days”. But you have not brought forth new evidence about how the events are falsely perpetuated in over TWENTY FIVE YEARS. Please Belanger bring us something new. Spare me the Bishop has spoken because the Vatican is not listening.

@david alexander

BTW I was quite careful to say “i have never attacked the Bishop in this COMBOX”  Both you and Louis need to be more careful in your false accusations

Ryan:

Actually, I’ve never accused you of anything (which is more than I can say for the other way around), and Louis simply republished your own words. You might have a quarrel with Louis for calling you out, but you have none with me. In fact, I might have one with you, but I just don’t give a ...

all faiths are equal.. as I said I think this is an important subject and one hopefully that can be discussed openly

Let me say this Our Lady (this is not to say it IS Our Lady) of Medjugoje’s words on religions for me pulled me IN to the messages of medjugorje.

“Tell everyone, that it is you who are divided on earth. The Muslims and the Orthodox, for the same reason as Catholics, are equal before my Son and me. You are all my children. Certainly, not all religions are equal, but all men are equal before God, as St. Paul says. It does not suffice to belong to the Catholic Church to be saved, but it is necessary to respect the commandments of God in following one’s conscience. Those who are not Catholics, are no less creatures made in the image of God, and destined to rejoin someday the House of the Father. Salvation is available to everyone, without exception. Only those who refused God deliberately are condemned. To him who has been given little, little will be asked for. To whoever has been given much, very much will be required. It is God alone, in His infinite justice, who determines the degree of responsibility and pronounces judgment.”

I have no problem with this and importantly confirms my love of the Catholic Church. The beauty of the sacraments of the Catholic faith is that it gives us peace that we are close to God and the Catholic Church gives us a path to eternity and salvation.

Traditionalist have a great problem with all this I don’t

“Tell everyone, that it is you who are divided on earth.”

“Traditionalist have a great problem with all this ...”

... and there’s a reason WHY they “have a great problem with all this.” The constant teaching, affirmed in no uncertain terms by Popes and ecumenical councils over the centuries, that “outside the Church there is no salvation.” could be interpreted as being called into question by this supposed message. At the very least, certain nuances contained therein would have the effect of adding to the deposit of Faith (which private revelations cannot properly do), particularly in the matter of what Pius XII called “invincible ignorance.” This in fact is a perfect example of why all of the more than ten thousand messages would need to be examined before any sanction could be given, if ever, to the phenomena at Medjugorje.

I am no expert but doesn’t the following teaching create a divide among Catholics who accept Vatican II and traditionalist who do not accept the ecumenism associated with Vatican II?

“outside the Church there is no salvation.”

Wait a second ryan, you like to twist words, you like to point out wrongs done to you yet you fail to take responsability for your mistakes and misunderstandings about the Catholic faith.

The Catholic Church has an unbroken history and that is due to Tradition,
Catholics are traditionalists period, don’t come with the line:“Traditionalist have a great problem with all this I don’t”
Allow me to explain Vatican II was only a Pastoral Council which means that it didn’t define dogmas and it didn’t condenmed heresies. The Council was an evaluation of the modern world. Yet this doesn’t mean that the Church has change its stance on once proclaimed heresies.
Sadly some members which now amounts to many in the Hierarchy of the Church have allow the wrong understanding on Ecumenism to spread and bring confusion to the faithful.
Many RCIA programs don’t lead converts to Catholicism into the true teaching of the Church. Many converts still keep the errors of their past professed cults.
This doesn’t mean that I disagree with all of Vatican II, I agree with the need for an evaluation of the modern world, yet I cannot in good concience agree with the popular belief that all faith are the same and we should sit by the fire singing kumbaya.
This leads to religious indifferentism and I will not support such incorrect reasoning.
Now getting back to the subject of Medjugorje, I do openly blame the Vatican for allowing this mess to have gone on for over 30 years.
When the Bishop of Mostar,Msgr. Zanic declared “these apparitions are not made by the most Holy Virgin Mary and he forbade the pilgrimages set up from the beginning without ecclesiastical approval by the pastor of Mostar.”  The Vatican should have immediately declared their formal and definitive support of the Bishop on the matter. And if they disagree with the Bishop’s dicernment which was highly unlikely at the time, they should have made their investigation instead of leaving it for so long and make up a commision to investigate it then, not wait until 2009.

Ryan: An ecumenical council, even one that is only “pastoral” (that is, one that does not attempt to define dogma), can only be properly understood and interpreted, in the light of the tradition and teaching of the Church, including that of past ecumenical councils. That said, there is no disconnect to which you refer.

@ Deoacveritati

Then what are we to make of Bishop Cauchon who condemned Joan of Arc to death because she would not retract her private revelations. By the way the bishop did not just condemn Joan of arc . There was a famous rigged trial against her as well that one could interpret as an investigation.

You are badly misguided if you believe Bishops are infallible when it comes to judging private revelations. I really do not understand your logic that Bishop of Mostar’s word is final.

Ryan: The trial of Joan of Arc, and the decision of the Bishop of Mostar, are two completely different things. Just for openers, the former used an illicit procedure, and thus was illegitimate at the offset. This cannot be said of the latter.

Like I said, that’s just for openers.

@david

“Just for openers, the former used an illicit procedure”

That sounds like a “Foleyism” You make a statement as if it has been revealed to you by God and it is supposed to end all discussion.
The trial was a highly sophisticated affair and Bishop Caucon was a Catholic Bishop. The Catholic Bishop “ruled” and set her on fire.

I have actually looked into this matter in some dept. In fact a leading depository of historical information relating to Joan of Arc has published one of my articles for the Saint Joan of Arc Center of Albuquerque, N.M.
I am a big fan of Joan of Arc - I think she died for a reason

Ryan it doesn’t matter what I answer to you or what evidence, or explanations some of us present to you.
Your insignificant mind is made up and you will obviously stand by your opinion.
I really don’t care if you agree with me or not, that doesn’t change fundamental truths of the Church and of some very serious evidence against the Medjugorje Affair, at least until the Church gives its final ruling on it, I will oppose it.
But what I do care about is defending the Catholic Faith I love, against all the stupidity that comes out of your mouth, like what the suppossedly Madona of Medjugorje says:“Those who are not Catholics, are no less creatures made in the image of God, and destined to rejoin someday the House of the Father.”
Read it again :THOSE WHO ARE NOT CATHOLICS ARE NO LESS CREATURES MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, AND DESTINED TO REJOIN SOMEDAY THE HOUSE OF THE FATHER.
Heretics, and Schismatics unless they convert to the true faith which is Catholicism are not destined to rejoin someday the House of the Father unless it’s their father lucifer’s house which is hell.
This Madona is heretical.
Now so that you don’t think I am running away from your question Bishop Pierre Cauchon, the Bishop of Beauvais, was a traitor to the Church herself, with his ambitions, by serving the English he had hope to gain the Episcopal See of Rouen which had been vacant for a long time, and it was his ambitions who made him sent Joan of Arc to be burn at the stake.
Bishop Pierre Cauchon was a traitor just like Luther, Calvin and many others who put their personal ambitions before the glory of Holy Mother Church and her saints.
Now I seriously doubt the Bishop or Bishops in this Medjugorje Affair had anything to gain by condemning Medjugorje, after all you as an investment adviser to Ministryvalues must know it has generated lots of money for the area and abroad.

ATTENTION TO: Saint Joan of Arc Center of Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Be careful who writes your articles.

@Sharon [Aug 11, 2011 7:17 AM (EDT)]

Sharon, you raise legitimate points that I would like to clarify and complete with some references.

You write: “I do understand about the status of apparitions, that we should not automatically assume an apparition is authentic.  I suppose we should not automatically assume it is false, either, although I would personally think skepticism is a healthy point of view to take toward this type of thing.”

I agree with you and it seems to be strategy encouraged by the 1978 Norms: “First, to judge the event according to positive and negative criteria” see the Norms, Part 1 [http://d-rium.blogspot.com/p/normae-s-congregationis.html]

You write: “Wouldn’t it make sense to investigate the most controversial aspects first?  Then, if those concerns were determined to be valid, it would be truly important for the Vatican to speak. […] Would it make sense to say, “We are worried about alienating those who had an apparently positive experience there”, while allowing people to continue to be misled by the thousands, year after year, at this apparition site?” 

That is exactly what Mgr Pavao Zanic, the Bishop of Mostar, has done by creating a first Commission (1982) of 4 members enlarged, in a second Commission (1984), to 15 members coming from different Yugoslavian dioceses who voted in majority: “non constat de supernaturalitate” in May 1986. [http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=101#_ftnref18] “The Commission prepared a draft ‘Declaration’ in which were listed the ‘unacceptable assertions’ and ‘bizarre declarations’, attributed to the curious phenomenon. The Commission also stated that further investigations were not necessary nor the delaying of the official judgement of the Church. The bishop duly informed the Bishops’ Conference and the Holy See, and he then informed the public during his homily in Medjugorje in 1987.”

The meaning of “non constat de supernaturalitate”.

Much has been said about that verdict: “there is no proof of a supernatural intervention.”

First, it is a verdict, a judgement made by a majority of experts, not by the sole Bishop of Mostar.

Second, it is a negative judgement, “non constat”.

What does it mean?

“Constat” and “non constat” are terms used in a juridical context. “Constat” practically means “proved”. Then, the formulation of the verdict could be: “it is not proved that the entity — claimed by the Medjugorje visionaries and Franciscans to be the Virgin Mary — is a supernatural entity and that her apparitions and revelations have a supernatural character.” In other words, the Lady of Medjugorje is not considered to be the Virgin Mary. [see http://en.louisbelanger.com/2010/06/01/why-since-1986-is-the-lady-of-medjugorje-not-considered-to-be-the-virgin-mary-1-an-itinerary/]

At the tribunal that we are familiar with, you will hear “proven guilty” or “not proven guilty”. The “candidate” is free to go if not proven guilty.

Let us change the word “guilty” for “worthy” in our ecclesiastical tribunal. The members of the Commission have to consider if the “candidate”, the Lady of Medjugorje, is “worthy” of being a supernatural entity, the Virgin Mary. The “entity” that they have to “examine” is still an unknown. They try to compare her traits with the ones they already know of the Virgin Mary.
They will use rigorous criteria that have been established by Prospero Lambertini. Before becoming Pope Benedict XIV (1740-1758), Prospero Lambertini was officially Promotor Fidei (Promotor of the Faith). The people who were craving for a rapid sentimental judgment in the acknowledgment of miracles called him “advocatus diaboli” because he was a great humanist, he knew much about science and he had a critical mind. He was convinced that science does not threaten faith but rather purifies it. The classical rules of judgment he submitted in his Treatise are still “in force” today. [http://te-deum.blogspot.com/2010/02/medjugorje-louis-belanger-responds-to.html]
Thus, the second enlarged Commission was of the ecclesiastical doctrinal juridical opinion that the candidate was not “worthy” of being considered a supernatural entity, the Virgin Mary. I repeat “not”, because some opine, by a kind of magical thinking that “not” is a “neutral” or even “positive” term… Well, we do not share the same vocabulary and the same logical inferences.
This is why I say that if that entity is not considered to be a supernatural entity, it cannot be the Virgin Mary who is, as far as I know, a supernatural being.
Moreover, attached to the “non constat” was a precise pastoral directive, co-signed by the Ordinary of Mostar and the President of the Yugoslavian Bishops’ Conference, in January 1987: “it is not permitted to organize either pilgrimages or other religious manifestations based on an alleged supernatural character attributed to Medjugorje’s events.” (see The Hidden Side of Medjugorje, p. 140) I repeat: —  “it is not permitted to organize either pilgrimages or other religious manifestations — based on an alleged supernatural character — attributed to Medjugorje’s events.”

In 1991, the third Commission confirmed the “non constat” verdict of the second Commission, adding the expertise of 15 members who held 23 meetings in Zagreb, from 1987 to 1990.
“A characteristic of the third Commission was that its work was to be done based on the findings and results of the previous Commissions and ex novo. Everything was done under oath and no communiqués for the public were made. The results of their four-year long efforts were presented to the members of the Bishops’ Conference in Zagreb in 1990. Discussions at the Bishops’ Conference on the “apparitions” were held on four occasions: 25 April, 9 October and 27 November 1990, and the Declaration on Medjugorje was accepted by a vote held in Zadar on 10 April 1991: 19 bishops voted for the Declaration while 1 abstained.” [http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=101#_ftnref18]
In October 1997, Mgr Ratko Peric, the Bishop of Mostar, expressed his personal position of “constat de non supernaturalitate” [the non-supernaturality is proven] of the apparitions or revelations of Medjugorje. And he added: “Nevertheless I am open to a study that the Holy See would undertake, as the supreme court of the Catholic Church, to speak the supreme and definitive judgment on the case, and that as soon as possible, for the good of souls and for the honor of the Church and of Our Lady.” [http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com/2009/09/what-did-archbishop-bertone-really-say.html]
In May 1998, Abp. Tarcisio Bertone, Secretary of the CDF, acknowledges the personal opinion of Mgr Peric, “which he has the right to express as the Ordinary of the place”, and reiterates the pastoral directive: “Finally, as regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentification of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church.”
That pastoral directive is still in force in 2011 and logically follows the repeated negative verdict since 1986: “non constat de supernaturalitate”.

At this point, it seems to me important to confirm my own interpretation of the “non constat” with the expertise of a Canon lawyer, Fr. Andrew Kingham, who has written his dissertation on “The Norms for judging alleged apparitions and private revelations” [http://en.louisbelanger.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Kingham_2007_title_abstract_extract_meaning_Non_constat_de_supernaturalitate-.jpg]
Here is an excerpt of his “general conclusions”: The verdict of “non constat de supernaturalitate” can be manipulated by supporters of alleged apparitions, especially in protracted occurrences, to suggest that the diocesan bishop is unable to give an affirmative judgement until the phenomena cease or when a prophecy is fulfilled. Therefore, in order to give greater clarity, the meaning of “non constat de supernaturalitate” should be understood to mean a negative decision. That is, the phenomenon is not supernatural because no evidence has been found to prove the case. Given the facts of the case brought before the commission of investigation, if it is impossible to give an affirmative judgement, then the case should be closed with a verdict of “non constat de supernaturalitate”. [Kingham, p. 213-214]

Sharon, I appreciate your polite and serene way to communicate and would like to continue the exchange with you. I will be absent for the next 4 or 5 days and will come back here to check if the discussion is still going on. If it is the case, I will discuss the other points that you evoked: the fact that “the Vatican has not condemned the apparition”, the “sensus fidelium”, and the observation that millions of faithful, encouraged by propagandists, do not seem to have respected the pastoral directive that is still in force since almost a quarter of a century: “it is not permitted to organize either pilgrimages or other religious manifestations based on an alleged supernatural character attributed to Medjugorje’s events.”

Some delicate topics could also be discussed such as the pastoral accountability or responsibility of the CDF compared with the one of the Diocesan authority, the search for truthfulness and the intelligence of pastoral care amidst the purported dilemma mentioned by Vittorio Messori… (I hope Deoacveritati and David L. Alexander, and others will bring also their grains of salt and insights…).

Cordially,

Louis Bélanger

Tuesday, October 05, 2010
Desideriun & Ministry Values (Stephen Ryan)
I continue to get reports about the latest article from Ministry Values on or about Medjugorge.

After my four-hour long talk with Stephen Ryan, I have decided to issue a public statement as regards the position of Desiderium in relation to Ministry Values.

Desiderium will not engage in any further discussion about Mr. Ryan or Ministry Values. I am choosing this course of action after Mr. Ryan disclosed to me the reasons for his articles on Medjugorje.

Those reasons are not worth my time or effort.

-KJS
Posted by Kevin Symonds at 7:43 AM
Labels: medjugorje, ministry values, private revelation, stephen ryan
2 comments:

Wade St. Onge said…

  Kevin, I thought you might be interested in reading this little beauty about Mr. Ryan. http://wademichaelstonge.blogspot.com/2010/10/tob-debate-summary-and-brief-history.html

  I would like Patrick Madrid to tell us that if this isn’t a case of being taken for a ride, what is?
  October 05, 2010 7:40 PM
RC said…

  My experience is that Mr. Ryan does not always follow ethical conventions precisely. He violated copyright by republishing material from my blog without attribution, until I pointed out the fact.
  October 05, 2010 10:23 PM

Ryan: I don’t care if you were the ghost writer for Mark’s Twain’s book. You are talking about two completely different things; a canonical trial, and an investigation into a supposed apparition. They are not the same. They are not even close.

This conversation has ceased to be about the article, and has devolved into a pissing contest, one that is off-topic. I have said all that I have to say about the subject of the article (more than once in some instances), and I will no longer be following this thread. I’m outa here.

Bishop Cauchon was a Catholic Bishop who burned a Saint after an investigation into her private revelations. You all can spin it anyway you want [ Facts are a stubborn thing.

This fact interestingly seems to send a lot of Medjugorje doubters to the exit gates. When it gets hot in the kitchen the rats scurry off the ship.

You all have the answer to everything the proof of nothing,

For the record Medjugorje will never be “proved” that Our Lady is here. One of the visionaries has spoken of that.  But make no mistake if Medjugorje were a hoax or a fraud or man made rest assured there will be “proof”  Unfortunately for you all so for it is thirty years without any evidence of a hoax.

I pray you all stop attacking a movement of peace that reconciles good people to God and the Catholic Church.

@david

For the record Bishop Couchon and Joan of Arc are not off topic.They are precisely on topic -
Disobedience towards the Bishop of Mostar is the single most significant issue that concerns the doubters. Bishops can be wrong in the matter of investigating private revelations. Bishop Couchon’s cruelty and evil is off target to you because it challenges your belief that the Bishop of Mostar should have the final word.

Ryan wrote: “For the record Medjugorje will never be “proved” that Our Lady is here. One of the visionaries has spoken of that.” Right, and the visionaries would know why it will never be proven. But Ryan forgets about the “visible sign at Medjugorje – permanent, indestructible, and beautiful”  in addition to the First Two Secrets that according to Mirjana will be “proof that the Blessed Mother is here in Medjugorje”. So which is it, Ryan? Will there be proof, or will there be no proof? Anyway I stand by my predictions (a) and (b) of August 3 above.

Ryan wrote: “Bishops can be wrong in the matter of investigating private revelations.” Including Cardinal Schonborn, Ryan? Schonborn wrote the Catechism, so his discernment in the matter of apparitions outside his jurisdiction would certainly be above reproach, don’t you think? He made a quiet private pilgrimage to Medjugorje and saw the “superpower of mercy”, so how could he be wrong about what he himself experienced and, more importantly, what he felt? How could he be wrong about the apparitions after he hosted one in his own diocese, itself a vibrant community with awe-inspiring liturgies and clergy who are a model of holy obedience and faithfulness under his masterful shepherding? Besides, his close personal friendship with the pope just underscores his integrity and trustworthiness as a sober witness to the unassailable veracity of the Medjugorje phenomenon. I think you are blind to the bigger picture here. ... But all snarkiness and irony aside, Ryan, I stand by my prediction (e) of August 3 above. I also want to add a sixth prediction (f) that the pro-Medjugorje community will assert that the supernatural character of the Medjugorje phenomenon lies not the discredited apparitions but in the spiritual experiences of the devotees.

seriously what happens aug 3

You make way to much of Cardinal Schonborn. His approach is not “official” in anyway. Like me he recognizes the good fruits and is deeply intrigued by the phenomena. Everybody on this board is obsessed with “rules” Like I said medjugorje is an unsolved mystery with a deeply Catholic twist to it and there does seem to be some “coherence” with other apparitions. Simple Children, uneducated,“secrets” etc - Schonborn has spoken of this.

I want to make this clear. I am not so much DEFENDING Medjugorje (I am serious) as much as I really think the current skeptics position is very weak and so my curiosity continues. For the life of me I really do not understand why skeptics cannot at least admit the whole thing is damn intriguing. Whatever the outcome.

Also Joe I have to accept your point about the “permanent sign” as proof that the visions are authentic. I think it was more along the lines of “proving” God exists - which she says can not be done.

In a post on August 3 2011, Ryan, I published in this combox five predictions concerning the aftermath of a constat de non supernaturalitate decision by the Vatican commission and added a sixth in a post earlier today. They are coming true already. But as for Schonborn, I am forced to make much of him because the pro-Medjugorje community relies on his endorsement of the phenomenon when defending its authenticity. You, Elizabeth, and MarkC would not have brought him up, nor strenuously defended his endorsement, unless you thought it carried weight, credibility, and relevance. Unfortunately for the pro-Med camp, assessments of his weight, credibility, and relevance are all over the Catholic blogosphere. As for your disdain for rules, however, I noticed earlier you called the Catechism a “Catholic rule book”, an unhappy slip. But the most alarming slip of all, Ryan, is your admission that Mirjana says the existence of God cannot be proven, which is an explicit (some may say Satanic) contradiction of defined dogma. Why you make so much of Schonborn yet so little of the glaring problems intrinsically connected with this phenomenon is a mystery to be sure, albeit one whose solution is elementary.

I do not know what to say about your comment that catholic dogma says “God” can be “proven” I always thought faith is what mattered. “blessed are those who do not see and yet believe”

But Schonborn- Yes he has been important to medjugorje - I am not sure of your point. Hundreds of Bishops, thousands of priest have found something good in Medjugorje, not to mention millions of Catholics.

The real issue with Schonborn (if i may steal a line) is the inconvenient truth that the Editorial director of the Catholic Catechism is open to Medjugorje. Doubters should deeply consider why this has occurred,

@Louis Bélanger – Louis, that’s a very valuable series of points you make to Sharon, and particularly regarding “non constat de supernaturalitate,” that it should be understood as a negative decision with regard to Medjugorje.

What has tended to happen as the comments have developed is that some basic facts about Medjugorje have been obscured. This particularly concerns the transcripts of the early tapes made during the first week of the visions. These clearly shown that although the visionaries did apparently see “something,” that something could not possibly have been the Blessed Virgin.

Ryan’s statement that he is not defending Medjugorje is simply unbelievable. He is running a website which features numerous articles which are extremely supportive of it, has posted at least 50 comments on this blog, quite a number of which have been of an insulting nature, and he is claiming not to be defending Medjugorje?

He thinks the skeptics’ position is weak, but that is only because he hasn’t read the relevant literature.

I don’t see how parading his ignorance in public like this can be a sensible thing to do.

People who really care about Marian devotion are not concerned with whether Medjugorje is “intriguing.” They want to know whether or not it is true.

And, having looked at all the evidence, to me the most likely source of what the visionaries saw was diabolical - and certainly all the scandals and problems associated with Medjugorje also point in that direction.

It’s what happened during the early days which really counts, and not basing one’s decision on alleged “fruits,” or on things the visionaries have said later on, especially when in a number of instances what they said later does not tally with what is on the tapes.

Regarding ryan’s apparent assertion that according to Mirjana the existence of God cannot be proved, this contradicts the explicit teaching of the First Vatican Council which declared: “Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason.” (Vatican Council I, Dei Filius 2.)

Overall, I think this the comments generated by this blog by Ryan and some other extreme supporters of Medjugorje back up the diabolical interpretation. Their comments are animated by a malicious spirit which ignores facts and prefers to attack people personally. Whatever spirit is responsible, it is certainly not the Holy Spirit.

Here in Britain, I have had to cope with the same tactics from some extreme Medjugorje supporters, so what is happening here is not an isolated incident.

This quote from St Peter sums up the situation: “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.” (1 Peter 3:15-16)

Still a good number of people have contributed some excellent comments and it all helps to advance the debate, and make the problems associated with believing in Medjugorje ever more clearer.

>>>Posted by MarkC on Friday, Aug 5, 2011 9:43 AM (EDT):@Sparticus. Please answer the simple question I posed to you before and that will indicate to all whether or not you accept the infallible teaching of Vatican II regarding grace outside the visible Church:
Incidentally, which of these statements do you think most closely aligns to the true Catholic position:
A) Protestants offer nothing of value in faith or practice for Catholics.
B) Protestants have a life of grace and can contribute to the edification of Catholics in faith and practice.

Mark, I was wondering where would I find this “infallible”
teaching you mention of Vatican II regarding grace outside the visible Church? And the choice is A. Why do “you” think prots contribute to the edification of catholics?

@foley

I think you made an astonishing admission. You say now that Medjugorje is of diabolical origin so we can conclude that you do not believe Medjugorje is a man made fraud or hoax.  But what is truly astonishing is that you have personally decided “based on looking at the evidence” that instead of seeing the Virgin Mary the visionaries have seen something diabolical -Satan, something preternatural. All because you said so.  It is like you are a ghost buster with some expertise to uncover and reveal evil spirits.  Where did you get your special power?

You admit the visionaries see something. Six witnesses for thirty years say they see the Virgin Mary and you say they don’t.  Are you asking us to believe you and pack our bags and go home?  You have not a shred of evidence that the seers are experiencing something “diabolical” -

I stand but what i said that I am not “defending” Medjugorje (I add nothing to the truth of Medjugorje.)  Ministryvalues.com’s efforts target the disinformation perpetuated by med skeptics i.e the Bishop has already ruled, medjugorje is disobedient, accusations of fraud with no evidence blah blah,blah. We are not perfect and we are going to write things that may push back harder than we intended at times.

Ryan, as much as I hate to agree with you, I echo your challenge to Donal to substantiate his claim it is demonic. So far it looks like the visionaries are only faking it. As far as I can tell there has been nothing associated with it that requires a demonic cause, such as false cures, unnatural behavior on the part of the visionaries, or the other signs we’re all familiar with. Disobedience and materialism can be demonic, but merely human causes suffice to explain these. Significantly, exorcist Gabriele Amorth is on the pro-Med side, yet exorcist Andrea Gemma is on the anti-Med side. (I’m sure you know Amorth is a mere priest while Gemma is a full-fledged bishop.) So what is the evidence it’s demonic?

@Joe – I have extracted some information from the book, which shows the evidence in favour of a diabolical involvement at Medjugorje, and it can be downloaded as a PDF from this link:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/medjugor/medjugorje-devil.pdf

Obviously, this information needs to be understood as part of a wider context, but there should be enough there to show that what I am suggesting makes sense. So I am not just claiming diabolical involvement on a whim as ryan seems to believe – but then since he hasn’t read the book, he doesn’t know what he is talking about anyway.

People need to read the book to get the whole story, but briefly, as I see it, there is very strong evidence for a diabolical explanation for the visions of the first ten days or so, and from that point on the evidence strongly suggests fabricated visions.

Regarding false cures, none of the “cures” associated with Medjugorje have been approved by the church, and it is the case that the devil can cause diseases and then “cure” them. Most people don’t seem to realise the extent of his powers. The chapter on the medical evidence is online here:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/medjugor/13medical-scientific.pdf

Unnatural behaviour on the part of the visionaries (like the Garabandal visionaries) is described in the first extract above.

I strongly argue that the chronic disobedience of the Herzegovina Franciscans is one of the driving forces behind the diabolical aspects of Medjugorje, and the evidence for this is likewise in the first extract. Yes, disobedience can be purely human, but it can also have diabolical aspects.

@joe
The two exorcists with opposite views of Medjugorje in a way sum up the state of Medjugorje i.e. smart decent people can come to very different conclusions. In many ways the two exorcist’s opposing views is a great example of why Medjugorje endures. Andrea Gemma is on the anti-Med side and I have read what he says - he says Medjugorje is all about money “the great motivator” but again like so many others he offers no evidence - no smoking gun of a fraud or hoax - Just “gut feelings” and stuff like “It can’t be!”  That is fundamentally my problem - no evidence of a hoax. Furthermore the visionaries have been exemplary Catholics for three decades

I look at Medjugorje the way the Bishop who approved the apparitions at Kibeho inRwanda ..He said There are more reasons to believe in the Apparitions than to deny them. The Apparitions of Kibeho are now officially recognized… The name given to the Marian sanctuary at Kibeho is “Shrine of Our Lady of Sorrows”.

“There our more reasons to believe than to deny them” - right know that works for me.

Donal, after reading your pdfs, I can anticipate the objections and counter-arguments already. Laboure touched her vision, so why can’t the Bosnians; lights and clouds were associated with approved apparitions, so also with Medjugorje; and the indistinctness and graduality can be attributed either to the subjective conditions of the seer or to the uniqueness of this particular apparition, and the uniqueness of this apparition can be invoked to explain away all the inconsistencies with approved apparitions; and so on. I can see a nit-picking rebuttal replete with special pleading gathering on the horizon. In any case, although it seems clear to me that the ongoing apparitions are mere human fakery, I now understand why people think it was possibly diabolical at the outset. It does make sense. As for cures, the only ones I have heard about are trivial, rumored, or otherwise unremarkable, such as nebulous “spiritual” healings, undocumented anecdotes, documented healings self-evidently of natural or iatrogenic origin, and so on; none so far seem to be diabolical counterfeits of the type you describe. The scientific analyses of the visionaries are prima facie ridiculous; there’s no room here to explain why. As for unnatural behavior, so far the only likely example is running up the mountain, but this can adequately be explained by the visionaries’ youth. One thing I have noticed, however, is the absence of olfactory phenomena (e.g. lilies, roses, burning sulfur, putrefying organic waste) reported by either the visionaries or attendees; I’m willing to bet this will show up eventually, but if it hasn’t yet, I don’t know why not, since natural sources abound in the area and manifestations are easy to fake, wittingly or unwittingly. (I recall in particular the background music heard during one apparition, and the leaking sculpture.)

Donal, I just submitted a 300-word response a moment ago to your post of 8/14/11 2:50 PM (EDT) that triggered the website’s spam alert, so I guess it’s awaiting moderator approval.

@donal

You write “there should be enough there to show that what I am suggesting makes sense”
Donal .. I am not looking for “suggestions that make sense” I am really perplexed by you lack of ability to see that.

My teenage daughter can make “suggestions that make sense” anybody can. nobody cares about your “suggestions”. We want evidence that Medjugorje is a fraud. You obviously have failed to offer that so I stand by the idea that regarding medjugorje “There our more reasons to believe than to deny them

Posted by ryan on Sunday, Aug 14, 2011 6:00 PM (EDT):
We want evidence that Medjugorje is a fraud

Ryan,
I want evidence that Medjugorje is real. Prove it.

Ryan, part of the problem I have with your positions is that your arguments are wildly inconsistent. You characterize the visionaries as uneducated peasants as if it enhances their credibility, yet tout Klimek’s academic work; you characterize Donal as lacking expertise but you yourself are nothing more than an investment adviser. You say your lack of financial benefit from Medjugorje proves your disinterest, yet dismiss the lifestyles of the visionaries as normal. Indeed you hold up their married lives as an example while passing over in silence the sordid affairs of the Franciscan vowbreakers. You use the Gay Cabal of Miami against the bishop of Mostar, but you sure don’t use the Den of Vienna against its own shepherd. You berate our obsession with rules, then split hairs with Dismas over obedience, the status of personal opinions, and the authority of the commission, split more hairs with David over the authorship of the catechism, and then sing the praises of rules and structure. You accuse me of rigid intellectualism while praising critical thinking, and then, oblivious to the irony, vomit forth an undigested 1700-word chunk of spam and then another 900-word lump bitten off from somewhere else.

You admire the fruit of Medjugorje but ignore the pine of Birmingham.

But Ryan, while protesting your openmindedness alongside your conviction that the Church is holy, catholic, and apostolic, you in your abject catechetical ignorance suspend judgment on Mormonism whose ministrations have deprived millions worldwide of all seven sacraments, a feat not even the Protestants have been able to accomplish in five hundred years.

So I ask you, Ryan, in front of everybody: Are you a reverse-shill, an anti-sock-puppet, a secret disbeliever in Medjugorje who is trying to make the believing camp look bad?

@joe

You toss a lot of things my way .. But first what does the visionaries great example have to do with Franciscan vow breakers..  Really i am lost on this point.

Also I have been one of the most out spoken voices against Birmingham. It is a cult from what I can tell. Go to my web site to read more.

Mormonism .. hepl me out here What does the Catholic Church say?

Mr. Bélanger, thank you for your response.  I had actually stopped reading the comments because the nature of the responses was not terribly helpful, except to remind me of how strongly many people feel about Medjugorje, whether for or against.  I do have some questions about the information you’ve provided but want a chance to think about it.  I will start, though, with this:  You quote Archbishop Bertone as saying this in 1998: 
“Finally, as regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentification of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church.”
Immediately following that quote, you say, “That pastoral directive is still in force in 2011 and logically follows the repeated negative verdict since 1986: ‘non constat de supernaturalitate’”.

But, doesn’t that second directive from Archbishop Bertone supercede the directive from the bishop of Mostar in 1987, the one that says, “it is not permitted to organize either pilgrimages or other religious manifestations based on an alleged supernatural character attributed to Medjugorje’s events.”

You have quoted statements that seem very contradictory, one which says pilgrimages may NOT be formed, and another, more recent, that says they MAY be formed. Or, maybe, both statements are really saying the same thing, essentially, “Don’t organize pilgrimages by telling people that the events have a supernatural character”.  The statement from 1987 just comes across as saying “Don’t organize pilgrimages at all,” even though that is not, exactly, what it says.  Definitely, the 1998 statement could not be used to argue that those who go on pilgrimage to Medjugorje are being disobedient, because it says pilgrimages ARE permitted.  And you say that the 1998 directive is still in effect.  I think you can see why I find all of this confusing!

@joe

As an investment advisor I am a trained skeptic.  I am grounded in the the real world. I know BS when I see it. it is what I am paid to do. With Donal Foley lets just say I am not buying his stock.

I personally believe the visionaries are seeing something and whatever it is, it’s not from God.
I agree with Donal Foley,and I have not read his book, but there is ample evidence suggesting diabolical phenomena or diabolical involvelment of some kind.
That is what is suggested when we talk about the Preternatural nature of the Medjugorge apparitions anyways.
The danger with Medjugorje is that if this is a deception of the devil, who can appear as an angel of light, many souls are exposing themselves to this evil entity. As Malachi Martin would say this is dangerous and most insalubrious for anyone to get themselves expose to.
Thoughout the history of the Church, there has been countless cases of demonic possession [I’m not suggesting the visionaries are possessed, although I’m not discarting either], infestations,obsssession, temptations etc., it is also known fact that even very holy people can even be possessed.
At Lourdes France, after the apparitions of Our Lady to St. Bernadatte from 11 February to 16 July 1858, there were false apparitions that followed,for what I read Fr. Cros counted about 30 visionaries by 1859,that is 10 years after the original apparitions. All claiming visions of the madona,and hearing voices, as well as shawdows, lights and figures or visions a man a young girl and child, or just the vision of a man with beard.
The purpose of this false visions at Lourdes was to bring division, jelousies, antipathies in the locality and to counter the genuine apparitions.
And again I will agree with Donal that the apparitions at Medjugorje, are a trick from the devil to distract from the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima and her message of repentance, constant prayer of the rosary, devotion to the first 5 Saturdays of the month, etc.
The devil has done a great job in convincing many that he doesn’t exists, that he is only character invented by the Church to scare us.
Well belief in the existance of the devil is a Catholic Church doctrine and we must not doubt his presense in our world today.
There is a book called Presense of Satan in the Modern World, by Monsignor Leon Cristiani, and it gives well documented cases of demonic possesion and infestations at Lourdes as well as documented cases of possesion throughout history. I suggest people should read the strange case of Antoine Gay.

Joe is suggesting the visionaries are faking it, that might very well be the case, but there would be demonic involvement of some kind, since there is a willful act to deceive. But to me it looks as if they are actually seeing something, and the experts who have tested them at least some of them like DR. Marco Margnelli a specialist in ecstasy and altered states of consciousness says:“I am non-believer and therefore I went to Medjugorje in a critical spirit, ready to welcome any evidence of what would contradict it or show up a fake. In so far as I am concerned, that is from my studies on change in states of consciousness in the children, I must say that I have, with my instruments, verified and documented a genuine state of ecstasy.
Certainly, as far as my opinion goes, there is no lying, and certainly the children enter a different state of consciousness, that which is scientifically called the “alfa” state. If they really see the Madonna, or if it is a case of suggestion phenomenon inexplicable to us, is a matter for theological competence, on which I cannot express myself.”

For my part I also think it’s important to recognized that science, technology, and logic must have a role in any investigation, but we must not forget the role of spiritual discerment especially regarding investigations of the spiritual kind. As I read in that very same article scientists cannot prove if Our Lady is appearing or not that would ultimately be a matter of faith, as they put it, I dare to correct them and say it would be a matter of deep spiritual discernment by Church experts and that includes exorcists and demonologists.
By their fruits you shall know them. We read in Holy Scripture.
Let us remember the Supernatural as well as the Preternatural cannot always be treated like an experiment on a pitrie dish, or demand the tangible scientific evidence we all seem to be accustomed in our world.
Father Cros and many other priests and bishops in past centuries studied evidence by using the intellect but also looking at it from past experiences with the Supernatual and the Preternatural.
The Supernatural and the preternatural asks to look for evidence mainly with the testing of the spirits and with an eye for spiritual discernment.
The devil although a fallen angel has kept his angelic nature, and he can reproduce apparitions as well as apparent cures, and ecstasies, let’s not forget that.

@Deoacveritati

Perhaps we are getting somewhere after all - It seems hoax or fraud to explain Medjugorje is not a viable cause - So that leave the doubter (on the remaing folks on this board) “Suggesting” Medjugorje is diabolical - Well who knows.

But I would like to say one thing about Medjugorje and Satan, the devil

I have read most of the so called messages from Our Lady at Medjugorje and I can tell you Our Lady warns of Satan constantly - I won;t dump messages on this board with her quotes but warning against Satan - She says he is strong - is a big part of Medjugorje. She certainly talks about how Satan wants to destroy families, and the world a whole lot more than most priests. And for those who think Medjugorje is “feelgood” Catholic “Woodstock” let me remind you that Our Lady asks us to fast twice a week - this is very difficult to do and it is a true penance and sacrifice.

Ryan,

I am certainly not decided on the authenticity of Medjugorje (good thing, because it’s not my call to make!), but your comment hits very, very close to home:  “She says he is strong - is a big part of Medjugorje. She certainly talks about how Satan wants to destroy families, and the world”

What I am seeing now, in my own life and in the lives of good friends, is that children are falling away from the faith, even from families who have tried to raise them firmly in the faith in these crazy tough times, at truly unprecedented rates.  My own oldest children are hostile to the faith at this point.  I was comforted hearing Dr. Ray indicating that he also sees this, that children are falling away at unprecedented rates due to “pseudo science” (atheistic evolution which is the only thing allowed in schools) and due to the “seduction” of the world.  If you listen to what kids are getting their heads filled with on the radio, and certainly the unbelievable things on television - it is just heartbreaking.  Our society is just wallowing in this incredibly immature, even perverse, sexuality, and kids are buying into it.  Whoever is coming up with these “messages” regarding Satan absolutely correct.  Satan is terribly strong, and it is true, the messages from Medjugorje indicate that we need to say MORE rosaries and fast more.  Why Satan would suggest such things, I don’t know.

Hi Mr. Bélanger and others.  I have been thinking a lot about this this morning, and this is another thing that is confusing me.  If I understand correctly, you believe that the Bishop of Mostar has spoken and has essentially condemned the apparitions.  If I understand correctly, you believe that it is wrong to go to Medjugorje as a pilgrimage site.  But you quote this: “In October 1997, Mgr Ratko Peric, the Bishop of Mostar, expressed his personal position of ‘constat de non supernaturalitate’ [the non-supernaturality is proven] of the apparitions or revelations of Medjugorje. And he added: ‘Nevertheless I am open to a study that the Holy See would undertake, as the supreme court of the Catholic Church, to speak the supreme and definitive judgment on the case, and that as soon as possible, for the good of souls and for the honor of the Church and of Our Lady.’”  This quote indicates to me that he does not feel that the final word on the apparitions has been given, and that he himself would submit to a “definitive judgement” from the Holy See that is contradictory to his own opinion.

So I am still confused on whether one should say that a final word on Medjugorje has been given.  From reading what you quote, and reading what Spartacus and David have provided, I have to conclude that the final word has not been given, and that people are not being disobedient by going on pilgrimage there.  No, they are not to organize a pilgrimage saying they are going to an apparition whose messages have been authenticated, but they definitely may go to the site as a place of pilgrimage.

I have to be honest.  I find the claims of wrongdoing, of possible fakery of some kind, of people thinking its great for a Protestant to be given Communion as though that’s what Mary wants, all quite concerning.  But I have to conclude that the Vatican is aware of many of these claims and has not decided to “shut down” Medjugorje, so to speak, based on those claims and opinions.  I would have to conclude that, for now, a person can visit Medjugorje, as long as they remain humbly open to the final judgement that is in the hands of the Holy See and that we must patiently await.  The final word has yet to be given.  Would you disagree with my analysis, such as it is?

@Ryan – My book is full of evidence pointing to fraud concerning Medjugorje, but
if you aren’t prepared to read the evidence I provide, (including now the extracts) how can you presume to criticise it? As Joe says, your whole position is inconsistent. The fact is that the visionaries cannot be separated from the rebellious Franciscans as though they had nothing to do with them.

I would agree with most of what Deoacveritati says, but disagree regarding his/her point about Dr Margnelli, for the reasons give here (pages 166-68):

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/medjugor/13medical-scientific.pdf

@Ryan - Regarding your comment about the Medjugorje Gospa warning about the devil, the whole point is that the hard evidence indicates that these later messages are fabricated – the real Our Lady has never said anything at Medjugorje.

All the evidence points to Medjugorje being a vast fraud initiated by the devil and foisted upon the Church at a low point in recent Church history, in the aftermath of the cultural upheaval of the 60s. This is a great tragedy for the Church, but we seem to have forgotten that the devil is a master intellect who is quite capable of dreaming up something like Medjugorje, especially as a frontal assault on Fatima would have been much more difficult.

Instead he killed two birds with one stone by initiating a false devotion/pilgrimage site at Medjugorje, and also by undermining the Fatima message - which we should remember is that means by which peace is to given to the world.

What makes discernment even more difficult is that many people have gone there, had some sort of “spiritual” experience, and assumed it must be genuine, not realising that the devil is able to counterfeiting such experiences. (rosaries changing colour, the sun spinning, etc., etc.)

The result is that many good Catholics have been led astray. Until people face up to that possibility/reality no progress is going to made in debates like this.

@Sharon – regarding your point about all the problems in the Church and in families, I would argue that a big part of the problem is that Catholics generally are not following the message of Fatima (which unlike Medjugorje is totally approved by the Church). When people begin to really live the message, say the Rosary (devoutly), participate in the Five First Saturdays and so on, then things will begin to really change in the Church. Fatima is the peace plan given to us from Heaven, and if we continue to ignore it things will only get worse.

@donal

I will let your words speak for themselves

“All the evidence points to Medjugorje being a vast fraud initiated by the devil”  Huh?

“the whole point is that the hard evidence indicates that these later messages are fabricated – the real Our Lady has never said anything at Medjugorje.”    The real Our Lady has never said anything at Medjugorje? What Donal - like She told you? Like you know the “Real Our Lady”?

You are either delusional or dishonest

Oh and I think somewhere I read on this board you wrote of book about Medjugorje. Am I correct on that?

Hi Mr.. Foley,  I couldn’t agree with you more.  Certainly Mary’s messages in Fatima are not being heeded by enough people.  Of course, Catholics in good standing are free to ignore Fatima, but they would be ignoring excellent advice - urgent advice.  The thing is, my point is also that Satsn’s attacks are undermining even those families that attempt to follow that advice.  We need more than “us” joining in this battle, because things are getting really, really bad.  I suppose it is left to us to pray more and sacrifice more, to make up for those who don’t.  I suppose all of this is neither here nor there in regard to whether or not Medjugorje is real.

Thanks Sharon - I agree with you. Fatima is the answer: Medjugorje is just a distraction.

One note on fasting not that people don’t know how to fast, but I thought I would share this simple info on Catholic fasting it involves:having a piece of bread with a coffee or tea in the morning, a normal lunch like you would have every day, or you can make it a regular breakfast or a regular supper, your choice, and in the evening again a piece of bread with coffee or tea or juice. That is how I do it.
The thing is fasting involves one regular meal, you choose which meal, and two snacks throughout the day.
One can drink water or juice or coffee or tea throughout the day.
Liquids like water or juice or coffee don’t break the fast.
If people choose to go without a drink in between the meals that is up to them and the offering they want to give to Our Lord and Our Blessed Lady.
I apologize for getting out topic but I too in the past thought of fasting as difficult until I got it better explain to me by very good priests. Since then, and I don’t mean to brag, Lord forgive me if I sound that way, I do it regularly and I find tremendous graces and fortitude of spirit.
I hope this small info on Catholic fasting helps and encourages anyone who might come to this combox. If ever there was a great need for fasting to discipline our souls I say this is the time.

@Deoacveritati

Helpful words…I have spoken with folks who have been to medjugorje - I was told Americans in particular have the most difficulty giving up coffee - so that is good to hear..It is quite difficult for me ..thanks for sharing your thoughts..Maybe this information will help me fast with more success

thanks

@sharon

A message from Our Lady this month warned of Satan’s power

“Dear children! Today I call you to be born anew in prayer and through the Holy Spirit, to become a new people with my Son; a people who knows that if they have lost God, they have lost themselves; a people who knows that, with God, despite all sufferings and trials, they are secure and saved. I call you to gather into God’s family and to be strengthened with the Father’s strength. As individuals, my children, you cannot stop the evil that wants to begin to rule in this world and to destroy it. But, according to God’s will, all together, with my Son, you can change everything and heal the world. I call you to pray with all your heart for your shepherds, because my Son chose them. Thank you.

Just a correction to my posting on Monday, Aug 15, 2011 6:52 AM
I said:“At Lourdes France, after the apparitions of Our Lady to St. Bernadatte from 11 February to 16 July 1858, there were false apparitions that followed,for what I read Fr. Cros counted about 30 visionaries by 1859,that is 10 years after the original apparitions.”
I meant to type that even after 20 years later Fr. Cross was still able to uncover false visionaries.

No, Ryan, I’m not tossing a lot of things your way; I’m just collating what you’ve said so far. Your contrived skepticism prevents you from drawing conclusions and the longer you play academic mind games with yourself the harder it will be for you to think clearly when you’re older. You’re already showing signs of what Evan Sayet calls “indiscriminateness”, the suspension of rational thought. This is not the same as suspension of judgment. Your inability, as I demonstrated above, to detect inconsistencies, much less to draw conclusions, is a sign you are reveling in being entertained rather than engaging in critical thinking. As long as you remain in that passive posture you will have nothing to contribute to the dialogue beyond an announcement that the Gospa has sent a thrill up your leg. You are not a trained skeptic, Ryan. If you were you would understand the significance of the Franciscan vowbreakers and of Birmingham, and you would not have missed the point about Mormonism several times in a row. Anyway I’m glad you’ve stuck around here.

Donal, after reading your pdfs, I can anticipate the objections and counter-arguments already. Laboure touched her vision, so why can’t the Bosnians; lights and clouds were associated with approved apparitions, so also with Medjugorje; and the indistinctness and graduality can be attributed either to the subjective conditions of the seer or to the uniqueness of this particular apparition, and the uniqueness of this apparition can be invoked to explain away any inconsistency with any approved apparition. I can see a nit-picking rebuttal replete with special pleading gathering on the horizon.

In any case, although it seems clear to me that the ongoing apparitions are mere human fakery, I now understand why people think it was possibly diabolical at the outset. It does make sense.

As for cures, the only ones I have heard about are trivial, rumored, or otherwise unremarkable, such as nebulous “spiritual” healings, undocumented anecdotes, documented healings self-evidently of natural or iatrogenic origin, and so on; none so far seem to be diabolical counterfeits of the type you describe.

The scientific analyses of the visionaries are prima facie ridiculous; there’s no room here to explain why.

As for unnatural behavior, so far the only likely instance is running up the mountain, but this can adequately be explained by the visionaries’ youth.

One thing I have noticed, however, is the absence of olfactory phenomena (e.g. lilies, roses, burning sulfur, putrefying organic waste) reported by either the visionaries or attendees; I’m willing to bet this will show up eventually, but if it hasn’t yet, I don’t know why not, since natural sources abound in the area and manifestations are easy to fake, wittingly or unwittingly. (I recall in particular the background music heard during one apparition, and the leaking sculpture.)

@joe

You suffer from “Foleyism”

You arrogantly “it seems clear to me that the ongoing apparitions are mere human fakery”

Well is does not seem clear to me nor to millions of other smart people who have actually looked into the matter which is why I still go to this board - hoping to find something that reveals the hoax.

“Human Fakery” Empty words uttered by day dreamers - give me some evidence - The only thing I have heard is the business of the “red Hanky” whatever the hell that is. And I am really tried of hacks dismissing with a wave of the hand the sincere work of internationally acclaimed scientists and doctors - It adds nothing to the body of knowledge and only makes Foley look small.

Joe
Not that this would be proof either way but have you ever heard an old Irish saying that if you cannot see the feet of the Madonna, then it is satan himself?  Something Malachi Martin stated years ago that I never forgot. I am not sure about Medj. but I have seen a likeness of her and her feet were wrapped in clouds.

@patrick

Malachi Martin loved Garabandal (sp) hated Medjugorje..
An absolute brilliant writer but not sure Malachi Martin brings a lot to this conversation. He supports some unapproved mystical events condemns others… again because nobody has the goods or the smoking gun we are left to speculate. The possibility of a “hooved” madonna at Medjugorje only confirms to me that the skeptics (foley) lack the goods - the evidence.

Ryan, it’s been explained where the burden of proof lies.

Patrick, yes, I have heard the same, but it can be counterargued that Medjugorje is unique in many respects and its inconsistency with approved phenomena is to be expected; besides, approved phenomena vary among themselves with regard to her feet, and even the seraphim cover theirs.

Patrick, I too heard the same thing.

“you will have nothing to contribute to the dialogue beyond an announcement that the Gospa has sent a thrill up your leg”

?

I suppose when we all, hopefully, meet in Heaven, we will not be having discussions involving the bickering that is going on here.  Nice back and forth, guys!  How pleasant it will be when we are not even tempted toward these things!  Sorry to single out this one comment.  It’s just that people who disagree about Medjugorje don’t get under my skin nearly as much as Chris Matthews does, so this comment jumped out at me more than the others.  And some day, Chris Matthews and I might be good friends in heaven, grateful that God was willing to clean both of us up enough to be in His presence!

Anyhow…. my interest in following these comments was that I wanted to understand whether people, friends of mine, even, were unknowingly being disobedient in visiting Medjugorje.  My friends tend to be the type who take loyalty to the Magesterium very seriously, so it has surprised me to come across several negative references to Medjugorje from places like Catholic Answers.  After reading information that many of you have generously provided, I feel that pilgrims are safe in visiting, as long as they remember that the Vatican has taken it upon itself to give the final word, and has not yet done so.

Since Fatima was not the last approved apparition of Our Lady, it seems that Mary has, or had, more to say after 1917.  Considering the state of our world*, it is not surprising that our Mother would continue to try to get our attention. (*Do you ever read spiritual books from the early 70’s in which the author laments how bad things have gotten?  And then you realize that he was writing BEFORE abortion was legal, and BEFORE embryonic stem cell research, and BEFORE tiny humans were left in suspended animation at IVF clinics, and BEFORE Jersey Shore and South Park and gay marriage and on and on?) Maybe the devil is trying to trick us by throwing in repeated requests for numerous rosaries and heroic fasting along with all the controversial things that are apparently going on in Medjugorje.  I tend to doubt he’d do such a thing, but I honestly don’t know.  But I believe it is not disobedient to go there, for now, and I believe that we would all do well to follow that advice to pray more, fast more, and spend more time thinking about Jesus.

Thanks for letting me in on this discussion! :)  I don’t know if I’ll get a chance to check back very much, so especially thank you to Louis Bélanger for taking the time to send so much information for me.

@sharon

You are a thoughtful person with a great catholic heart.

About catholic Answers.. Patrick Coffin was/is an employee (or some affliation) of Catholic Answers has made it his mission to poison Medjugorje with all his heart, body and soul. He has posted a couple of comments on this thread.

Not sure why he is such an anti-medjugoje zealot. He thought medjugorje had gone away a couple of years ago. Then came Cardinal Schonborn and the catholic Church investigation into Medjugorje and now he he acts like a child whose lollipop has been taken away. He will not discuss Medjugorje.  He will only condemn. He is not a serious person.

Malachi Martin stated that he thought Medj. was originally visited by heaven but soon after was taken over by satan. MM had stated he was involved with many exorcisms, so maybe he knew that something about it. Many things were mentioned by this apparition , a lot of ambiguity that catholics have an obvious problem with.
Ryan, for someone who likes to say “we are left to speculate”, you appear to be too headstrong in your belief in this apparition to play the “on the fence” card. There are quite a number of statements to suggest to a lot of catholics that the visions are not from heaven. Apparitions are NOT necessary part of salvation. Why risk your soul over such things even when there is the appearance of the “good” fruits?

@patrick

“Headstrong”? Perhaps but it is driven by the stupendously inept work of the skeptics who (i have learned from this board) attach truth to their “suggestions” and ruminations. They have no evidence of hoax or diabolic origins yet are happy trying to destroy a Catholic movement that conforms and returns millions back to the faith. It is a mystery to my why you do take Foley and others out to the woodshed and insist they end their speculations and suggestions and stick to the facts. Look Foley is lost.. that is a fact.

you say ” Apparitions are NOT necessary part of salvation. Why risk your soul over such things even when there is the appearance of the “good” fruits?”

It took 150 years for the Catholic Church to approve the first appartion on United States soil at Green bay wi. I have spoken with employees of the apparition site. One women I talked to was happy that the site was finally approved, but sad because she knows that many souls could have been saved by helping the struggling faithful find Jesus through Mary at the Green bay site. She has first hand experience on how Marian shrines change people’s lives. She sees it everyday.

Fundamentally I believe marian apparitions have been hugely important to the Catholic faith over the centuries. The Virgin Mary to a large degree separates us from our protestant brothers and i COMPLETELY reject the notion that apparitions and shires are not part of salavation. Millions of people would not be with the Catholic Church without Our Lady’s presence. You are right academically but sadly wrong in reality.

Is it possible that many things that happen in Medjugorje can be invented?

Bishop Hnilica – Some years ago, there was a Youth meeting in Marienfried, and I was invited. During the encounter, a journalist asked me: “Bishop, don’t you believe that, all that is happening in Medjugorje, comes from the devil (Satan)? I answered: “I am a Jesuit. Saint Ignatius taught us how to discern spirits, but he also taught us that each event can have 3 different sources: human, divine or diabolic.” At the end, he agreed with me that what is happening in Medjugorje cannot be explained from a human point of view – the fact that every year normal young people – thousands of them – are attracted, they stream in order to reconcile with God. Medjugorje has already been named “confessional of the world”, because, as a phenomenon, neither Lourdes nor Fatima managed to spur that many crowds of people to go for confession. What is happening during confession? The priest is delivering the sinner from the devil. Then I answered to the journalist: “Off course, Satan is capable of many things, but he is not capable of one thing: Is it possible that Satan spurs people to go for confession in order to be delivered precisely from him?” The journalists laughed, understanding what I wanted to say. Therefore, the only cause remains in God. Later on, I told to the Holy Father about this conversation.

You know, Ryan, going back to your post of Tuesday, Aug 16, 2011 2:31 PM (EDT) above, I was just thinking some more about authority and the concept of “qualification”. I realized that if you want to determine whether a painting is a real Picasso or a forgery, you wouldn’t ask an artist; if you wanted to know how a magician saws a lady in half, you wouldn’t ask a surgeon; if you wanted to know whether a given $20 bill is genuine, you wouldn’t ask a millionaire. So why do you give any credit to the scientific studies?

@joe

Why not give credit to the scientific studies?  Only Foley and guys with skin in the game denounce the scientific investigations. Even the local Bishop accepts the studies.

Just to be precise: while Bishop Peric makes his personal opinions known, there is no official condemnation of the apparitions by him, because when he went to the Vatican with his final report, then Cardinal Ratzinger requested he turn the matter over to the Vatican.  Which he did. I also find it interesting that in the Kibeho Rwandan apparitions, there were 7 who claimed to be seers.  Three of these had their apparitions approved. Someone is lying.  But we can’t tell who. And some people lying, doesn’t make the apparition false.

@joe - am away, but will respond to your points when I get back.
Donal

I was visiting my dying cousin this past week. From this experience I realize that to be pro-medj or anti-medj is really not that important.
When one goes to the other life, Medjugorje is of no use if one did not
truly changed their life towards our brothers.

I advise you all in these discussions to always use love towards your neighbors and try not to attack each other by calling names or dimeaning anyone because this is what is going to be judged in our personal judgment and not whether we prayed at Medj. or we didn’t.

Maybe this whole situation of Medj. is a test for all for those that believe and those that are waiting for the approval of the Church.

In the end, what matters is our treatment and care of each other in the name of Jesus our Savior and not so much on whether I visited and converted in a place where thousands go, or whether I don’t need to go there to be converted.

God said He does not want sacrifices. He said He prefers Mercy.
It is a sacrifice to go to Medj. or to the local parish Church and pray.
But, if there is no love in us, no respect of neighbor,no acceptance of those who do not think like us, no patience with each other, no understanding of each other, no true charity, and no fear of God, no love towards the Catholic Church, then whatever we do might be of no use to get to heaven.

Peace,
Maria

Well, Ryan, “why not” is not a reason why :-( So then what was the purpose of the investigations in the first place?

@joe

forget it, it is not worth debating Foley’s opinion on the veracity of the scientific investigations.

http://www.medjugorjetoday.tv/1888/bishop-blasts-vicka-over-tennis-comments/
Hmmmm…..interesting!

http://www.medjugorjetoday.tv/1888/bishop-blasts-vicka-over-tennis-comments/
hmmm….interesting!

@Deoacveritati

Deo, did you happen to see this article on Catholic Lane yet?
[http://catholiclane.com/deception-for-our-times-details-part-one/]
It contains an interesting link to another blog that contains a document deliberated in a Plenary Session of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Pope Paul VI, happily reigning, 24 February, 1978.  The document is titled “NORMS OF THE SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH ON THE MANNER OF PROCEEDING IN JUDGING ALLEGED APPARITIONS AND REVELATIONS”

It’s a POST Vatican II document that answers most all questions as to how and why a ‘new commission’ was formed, at whose request and who remains in control.  It makes certain Bishop Peric’s continued authority, role and leadership in this matter. 
[http://d-rium.blogspot.com/p/normae-s-congregationis.html]

I LOVE Catholic Lane!!

Dismas, Deo, it looks like Medjugorje runs afoul of Negative Criterion I.B.d., “Gravely immoral acts at the time of the event itself or in association with it, committed by the subject or by his close followers.”

Joe, I’ve greatly enjoyed your posts on this thread.  You are blessed with a great many gifts it would seem.  You have taught me a great deal.  To steal a line from a comment I saw on another blog not to long ago; “A true brother from the same Mother.”  May God bless you always.

Wow, thanks Dismas! This is the first time I’ve actually had a real back-and-forth with anyone on the pro side and I’m glad I stuck with it. I learned a lot too.

Joe, regarding the covered feet on apparitions, which ones are approved that appeared with their feet covered and that they are not just paintings?
tks.
peace
Maria

Here is something to consider:  I personally heard “seer” Marija relate the following joke (recorded, by the way) about Jesus.  It was in 2000 in Sacramento.  Would anyone who actually communicated with the Mother of God tell such a profane and blasphemous joke?
  “Jesus was in Paradise.  The Apostles were a bit bored being in
Paradise for such a long time, as we sometimes say we will get bored
in Paradise.  Jesus said, ‘Let’s go for a tour on earth’. And they
thought where are we going?  Are we going to go to California or
Medjugorje or somewhere else?  And they couldn’t decide so they said
it’s better if we go back to the places we know, so they went to
Palestine - the Holy Land.  So they went and they decided to have a
barbeque on the beach,  on the lake, with fresh fish.  And they were
very happy, so they went and lit up the fire and fished the fish,
and since they were in Palestine where they had no more faith, but
they were completely sure about what they could to - they had   perfect
faith, we could say, they were all walking on water.  And so Jesus went
on the water but started to go down - to sink.  So he starts thinking
to himself,‘What’s wrong with me? I’m Jesus. This is impossible’. 
And then Peter saw him, got close to him and said, ‘Rabbi, you forgot,
your feet have holes’”.

Dismas, good to know you’re still around.
Thanks for the info I just finished reading it.
This DOFT scandal is a perfect example of the presense of satan in our modern world to quote Monsignor Cristiani’s book title.
I personally find it mind boggling to have people going around chasing apparitions and visionaries even when there is not a small shred of evidence of holiness about them,the lives they lead, much less their appearance.
To find out the lack of spiritual introspection, no theological dicerment along with well needed critical thinking among some high Church officials and theologians in our times who by the way, should be practicing a life of prayer and penance, all recipes for better dicerment regarding apparitions, locutions, visions etc.,it’s disconcerting.
It reminds me of 2 Thess. 2.
Again, I agree with Joe the good thing about this debate is the information shared and the learning done by it.
May it be ad majorem Dei gloriam!

@Deoacveritati

Medjugorje and tennis

Do the math ...two tennis players ranked in the top fifty in the world from the same small town. In the history of tennis and probably golf it has never happened. The odds of two world class athletes - top fifty - to be from the same city let alone a small town are spectacularly high. The fact they are from Medjugorje is quite interesting. That is just a fact.  Perhaps the Bishop should have rejoiced in the success. Instead he diminished the accomplishment of the Medjugorje tennis players by issuing a bigoted and ethnically   insensitive statement after the players lost their next match to, in his words “Serbians” 

Bishop Peric’s ethnically insensitive statement speaks volumes of his motivations and where his heart resides . To me he opened a window into heart. A sad day for the Bishop of Mostar

Poor guy!  Bishop Peric might be under a lot of pressure and stress.  He took this bite and he should had not.  The seer Vicka seems too aware of the worldy things such as tennis matches and championships.  It is sad that it seems like I hear more of things going on in the world from the seers that are unimportant to our salvation than for example hunger in Africa or abortion in the world.  Perhaps this is why Bishop Peric has spoken about this superfluous issue when we have much more important ones to think about.

I would had liked for the good Bishop to have continued with his silence so that the evil one does not make use of anything that he says against his good name.

peace,
Maria

Bishop Peric broke his silence on Medjugorje to criticize one of the visionaries for praising two Medjugorje tennis stars? As if his move to block the Papal Preacher from conducting a retreat for clergy at Medjugorje and his ruckus over Cardinal Schonborn’s private pilgrimmage didn’t speak volumes enough - he gives further evidence of his lack of perspective and charity towards the visionaries and the Medjugorje events..

Once Vicka gives her opinion publically about a tennis match she is subject to criticism of what she says.  She should know that she is in the eyes of many and if she likes this type of fame, then Bishop Peric is right.

Fame is equal to pride. It is what every approved apparition visionary runs away from…!

This fame seems to follow the Medjugorje visionaries and it is not a good sign.
peace
maria

@maria

They don’t seek fame.. Witnesses seek humility. Evangeical pastors seek fame and money, Falwell, Pat Roberton.. The visionary’s fame comes from the extraordinary events . It is so wrong to confuse the fame of Medjugoje which is what Our Lady desires for the people of the world with the behavior of the seers. Our Lady says ‘I have come to tell the world that God exists”
It is a beautiful sign that the visionaries have become known. Question - How does the Immaculate Heart triumph without Our Lady’s message becoming known to the world.

Deo, there are a few things Ryan left out of his response to the tennis gaffe. He could have reminded us that Peric is a nonbeliever and accuse him of latching on to any and all embarassing facts associated with the phenomenon in order to discredit it; indeed, the bishop’s irrational hatred of what is self-evidently the work of God shows through in his statement not only as it is peppered with “scare quotes” but also in his racist/nationalist observation, obviously influenced by memories of the civil strife that has rocked the Balkans in living memory, that the two tennis players were defeated by Serbs, which stands in stark contrast to Medjugorje’s message of “Peace! Peace! Peace!” Second, he could have pointed out that Vicka committed this gaffe on her own initiative, but what she says in her own name does not impugn the authenticity of the apparitions. Third, given what she actually said, it cannot be concluded that she attributed the athletes’ success to the Gospa, nor that their success constitutes a private revelation, nor that it is miraculous in any way; rather she attributed their success to their talent. Fourth, the “message” Vicka probably had in mind pertained the use of God-given talents. Fifth, the anti-Med community is blowing an innocent remark out of proportion.

@Maria on Friday, Aug 19, 2011 10:56 PM (EDT) Maria, I’m basing this on what I can find on the internet. Lourdes had yellow/golden roses on the top of each foot while the feet were bare, apparently. Most others had bare feet, and the details can be googled; some don’t even mention her feet, and of those that don’t, you can reasonably infer that her clothes covered them, such as one of Laboure’s visions (the “rustling silk” vision) although the Miraculous Medal and derivative statues have her barefoot on a globe with an overturned snake under one of her feet.

Laurette, the pro-Medjugorje community can reply by saying that a visionary’s profane behavior is not necessarily part of what has been privatetely revealed. Recipients of apparitions are not automatically saints.

Ryan, by the same token we should know Obama is a humble and wise instrument of the will of God because that’s what he prayed for in front of international newsmedia at the Wailing Wall. And so the fact the visionaries tour the world holding scheduled apparitions in front of assembled crowds should be interpreted not as vulgar grandstanding but as a means of bringing Our Lady’s message to the world. Don’t you agree? But I have a question. If Medjugorje is a continuation of Fatima, shouldn’t the Medjugorje seers follow in the footsteps of Lucia dos Santos, or is Our Lady’s plan different this time around?

ryan, I don’t know if they like the fame they are getting or not, but one knows that in this world once one is out there in public and even going around all over the world that is what one gets, one becomes famous.

I would have a different opinion of the seers if they would had stayed secluded and private by only letting the Holy Spirit take off with the message as it has ocurred many many times before. 

None of the previous apparitions that I have read of Mary or Jesus have been promoted by the receiver of the message.  It seems that it is always a work done by the Holy Spirit where He sends other people to do the job.  The Sacred Heart of Jesus, became known to the world by the grace of the Holy Spirit working in His Church and I don’t think it was the seer, St. Margaret Mary Alocque (hope i have the correct name) who came out and began a world wide speaking tour on the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. 

Our Mother from Heaven knows that the behavior of the seer is taken into consideration in order to authenticate Her intervention and Her message.
This is why Vicka and the others are under investigation and things like what happened with the tennis comments may be taken into consideration by the investigators in the commission. 

Peace,
Maria

@joe

I don;t understand the obsession that the Seers must be just like Fatima. Guadelupe’s “seer” was a married man (i think) and his miracle and revelations changed a continent.

also did it ever occur to you that the “success” of Medjugorje is partly due to the great example of a modern Catholic life that the Seers represent.  They live a beautiful life. They show us how to love God and yet be in the world.

Joe,
I asked you because I have looked for the same issue too.  I read somewhere, sorry I don’t remember where, that the devil can disguise himself as Jesus, Mary or a saint but that he can’t fully disguise them leaving some parts of him as he is, thus it is said that the devil covers his other parts with something like a cloud perhaps.

The image the seers of Medj. see has the feet hidden in a silver or dark cloud. 

Then, pro-Med were telling me about the Lady of Guadalupe Tilma, and I went to research it and found that the story told by San Juan Diego tells of her bare feet on top of the bush and there is a picture of that in the old books.  Apparently the tilma was touched up by humans and the angels and the moon and everything covering her feet were added onto after the miracle. 

The other thing that it rings too fishy for me is the sudden appearance of the devil (dressed as the lady of Med. apparition) to one of the seers and then later the apparition came as the lady and said something like “sorry this is for you that the devil exists”.  I have never heard of that in any of the approved visions, apparitions, locutions before anywhere and this I can’t reconcile it is too hard to accept that it was our Mother Mary who let this happen. 
Peace,
Maria

Joe about your earlier posting on Sunday, Aug 21, 2011 8:43 AM (EDT)
Well said.
Now MarkC, on Bishop Peric showing ‘lack’ of charity to Vicka’s trivial remarks over the victory of the tennis players as “another message from Medjugorje”, come on,.... how so???
The Bishop has a right to show his frustration at the nonsense going in his diocese.
The politics of the area, or the nationalism of either the bishop or the visionaries have nothing to do with the apparitions as being discuss here. Or maybe we should talk about it, since the country of Bosnia is in shambles. I was reading the young people in the area find it difficult to find jobs etc, what is the Gospa saying about that???
And about your remark on the bishops lack of perspective,...what perspective???
The Madona appearing for over 30 years, and for what reason???
We have an economical crisis in the western world, conflicts in the Middle East and Africa that look more and more like a war, almost 12 million people starving in Somalia, natural disasters like the Fukushima’s sunami, protests and disarrays all over the world, drug wars in Central America, and Vicka talks about how the victory of the tennis players is another message of Medjugorje???.... Please give me a break!!
Let me say this, the one thing that has always upset me about Fatima is the painful look in the children’s faces, especially 7 year old Jacinta. Her little face is filled with worry and anxiety about the visions of punishments coming to the world if it didn’t amend its ways, and then I look at the visionaries of the Gospa always so cheerful and smiling as if everything is just fine and dandy. It makes me sick!
Now let’s talk about the Medjugorje messages.
What is the message from heaven the madona is bringing???
As Bishop Peric says there is nothing in the messages that we could not find in the bible and ordinary weekly homilies.
And Ryan, if Mirjana says the existence of God cannot be proven,then how can the Gospa be bringing the message to the world that God exists???
There is NO proof the Gospa is coming from heaven. None.
There is nothing new in her messages and there is a refusal from the Gospa to provide a sign that proves to the world she is from heaven. There are however promises of a sign, and that’s all there is.

Joe, no one becomes a saint until he or she enters heaven.  The joke told by Marija, however, is one that exhibits here on earth a lack of holiness, and respect for the sacred Wounds of Jesus Christ.  What would you think if Popes Pius XII, John XXIII, John Paul II or Benedict XVI told this joke in public?  Would Mary appreciate such a joke?  Let me add that after Marija told this joke, the entire auditorium of about 2000 people erupted in raucus cheers and laughter.  I was absolutely stunned by the horror of it.  To this day I remember it as a nightmare - but it was real.  There were even audio tapes available of Marija’s talk, which ended with the joke.  The tapes were on sale right away at the conference.  Sickening.  The whole Medjugorje hoax is a cancer eating away at the Church.  I pray that Cardinal Ruini’s Commission will rule soon on this fraud.

Laurette,

You hit the nail on the head.  The issue for me is not Medj itself, it’s the loss of respect for our Church and hierarchy that I see over and over again in the pro Medj ‘converted’ camp.  Many adherents seem to become their own self anointed authority regarding faith and morals without any need for the Church.  Sure they seem to frequent the sacraments, but so do many people who no longer hold to and obey many Church doctrines. 

What else other than something diabolic could cause this kind of self justified disobedience, lack of respect and divisiveness?  Why is the Catholic Church in Europe and America still so rife with relativistic,  secular humanistic faith with no end in sight after 30 years of ‘millions of converts.’  Coverts, fruits?  Mostly what I see is an attack on our Church.  A desire to achieve a new faith and a new Church without the Cross, without the fullness of the deposit of faith and without our Hierarchy.  Millions and millions of ‘converts’ in 30 years, only a handful of vocations and our Church pews continuing to empty in Europe and America.  Just doesn’t add up does it?

@Laurette and Dismas

“Horror” “Makes me sick”  etc. etc. sad how often that seems to be where the heart of those opposed to medjugorje resides.

To me the horror is knowing people (and I know some) who today leave the Church and will never return may have found something they were missing if they had stumbled onto medjugorje.  I know a large number of people who recently left the Catholic church upset that their pastor, with the support of the bishop, at the height of the sex abuse crisis, ended the practice of “alter-girls”  (it is approved by the Vatican)

Medjugorje is about - prayer, peace, put God in the first place - love That’s what Medjugorje is about- I find the ministy of jesus christ in the messages of Our Lady and they strengthen my Catholic faith - you all have no business criticizing   your Catholic brothers and sisters.

Laurette, its ok if Marjianna smiles and jokes.  Marjianna is a beautiful human being who helps people return to the Catholic faith - millions by the way.

also, Joe, I said God could not be proved. Our lady said I have come to TELL the world God exists - not prove to the world…Joe - remember blessed are those who beleive and do not see. and by the way - The secular world is still looking for Christians to prove Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

lastly “Vocations” - Famously a bishop in europe said “Thank God for Medjugorje we would have to close are seminaries if were not for the young who come because of medjugore.

“Why is the Catholic Church in Europe and America still so rife with relativistic,  secular humanistic faith with no end in sight after 30 years of ‘millions of converts.’  Coverts, fruits?  Mostly what I see is an attack on our Church.  A desire to achieve a new faith and a new Church without the Cross, without the fullness of the deposit of faith and without our Hierarchy.  Millions and millions of ‘converts’ in 30 years, only a handful of vocations and our Church pews continuing to empty in Europe and America.  Just doesn’t add up does it?”

Hi Dismas and all,

I’ve been following these messages, mostly through e-mail, and I continue to find a lot of it upsetting.  If Laurette had not personally been present at the telling of the “joke”, I would wonder if she hadn’t heard bad information.  But I understand that you were there, Laurette, and I would have been heartbroken at that, too.

Still, there are so many “against” arguments that don’t really hold up for me.  Dismas’s description of Medjugorje followers doesn’t fit the people I know at all.  The people I know are not obsessed with Medjugorje by any means, but they had deep, positive experiences there.  They are very, very faithful Catholics, loyal to the Magisterium.  They go out of their way to find Masses said with reverence, and quite frankly, I am not surprised when a young, very reverent priests ends up being one who has been to Medjugorje.  In so many other Masses locally, I have to keep reminding myself that none of the modernist nonsense at the parish changes the fact that that precious priest is making it possible for me to receive Jesus’ Body and Blood.  But if I can find a Mass without those drawbacks, I go to it! And so do my friends who have been to Medjugorje.

I would be interested in opinions on why, when Fatima was truly such a beautiful, necessary message, did that message not prevent a “Catholic Church in Europe and America still so rife with relativistic,  secular humanistic faith with no end in sight”?  It is not our Lady’s fault, not the fault of her message.  It is because there is still so much hardness of heart.  And that hardness of heart can’t be blamed on Medjugorje, as far as I can see.

@Sharon,

Do I suffer from an inordinate attachment to our Church?  Why does defense, obedience and love for our Church offend and ‘upset’ Medj advocates?  Why does defense of our Church always equate to condemning Medj pilgrims?  It just doesn’t add up does it?

@dismas

Your “defense” of obedience to the Church basically implies Medjugorje is “disobedience”  This is fundamentally the issue that divides.  I get “upset” because I feel i am inline with Church guidelines when it comes to Medjugorje.. I am really, really worn out by the charge that those who view Medjugorje openly are somehow disobedient. This needs to stop it would make all the time i have spent on this board worthwhile if we could come to some agreement on this issue..How about it?  it would be a good thing dismas if I could move your way a little and you move towards medjugorje a little.

The holy wounds of Jesus should be looked upon with devotion.

They are a sign of love for us.

You can find more information on the devotion to the five holy wounds of Jesus in the internet. 

Think about the suffering and pain that Jesus endured for us when he was pierced and nailed to he cross! 

A joke about our Lord’s wounds? What in the world is that?  Seriously, the hands pierced by the nails which held Him to the cross and later were the sign of love given to Thomas so that he would believe?

There should be no joke about that infron of an audience by a speaker who says she sees the Virgin. 

Think about how Mary felt seeing her Son being nailed! Did Mary approved of the joke? I wonder.

Peace,
Maria

@Maria on Sunday, Aug 21, 2011 11:32 AM (EDT) Maria, it is significant that Kathryn Ann Clarke, Rita Ring, Maureen Sweeney Kyle, and so on, were all asked by their apparitions to engage in the active dissemination of the content of their private revelations.

@Ryan on Sunday, Aug 21, 2011 11:40 AM (EDT) No, Ryan, of course the seers don’t have to be just like Fatima. Its just that the differences between Medjugorje and Fatima are getting stranger and stranger. I’m not aware of any other pair of private revelations understood to be connected in such a way. For in spite of the faithful’s universal reception of Fatima, nevertheless the bishop’s approval is fallible, and the Fatima phenomenon could have been a hoax or just a huge misunderstanding. Supposing it were a hoax, Medjugorje’s dependence on Fatima would be a potentially fatal risk. But then we have to ask whether the Medjugorje apparition itself did in fact assert such a connection with Fatima in the first place or whether the claim originated in the pro-Medjugorje community. At any rate this would not be the first time a dispute arose over whether the Medjugorje apparition actually made a given assertion or whether it was falsely put in its mouth by someone else. To what degree do you think Marija’s July 11, 1988 retraction of a private revelation she falsely attributed to Mary contributes to the success of the movement?

@Maria on Sunday, Aug 21, 2011 11:47 AM (EDT) Well one tack the pro-Meds can take in reconciling the devil apparition is to point out, as Ryan has above, that the agenda of the apparition is “to tell the world that God exists”. It only stands to reason that the apparition would also tell the world that the devil exists. And the pro-Meds could add that his manifestation to the seers was granted by permission of heaven for our edification, as are all the devil’s evil activities among men.

As for the tilma, I’ve heard that over the centuries the retouching work eventually dries and flakes off, as would be expected in the course of nature, revealing once again the miraculous image still intact underneath.

Come to think of it, the tilma of Guadalupe sure blows the bloody handkerchief of Medjugorje out of the water.

@Ryan on Sunday, Aug 21, 2011 4:14 PM (EDT) Sure, Ryan, blessed are they who believe yet do not see. Video of the January 14, 1985 apparition, however, is hard to unsee.

Joe,
regarding the devil masquarading as the apparition of the lady of Medj, it reminds me when in Lourdes, the devils were making sounds near the Grotto of Massabielle and Mary just looked at the site where the sound was coming from and they fled! 

One thing that I know the devils do is that they mock, deceive and taunt. We called them in Spanish: Spiritus burlones, or taunting spirits.

But, the most impresionating thing about this issue ,for me, is that it sends me a different message than perhaps most of you.

The message that I got was this:  Look, even the devil can impersonate Mary, the Mother of God by appearing the same way and by wearing same clothes,
and supposedly the Virgin Mary let that happen.
Then, I think, why
couldn’t some or maybe most of the apparitions of the phenomenon
be the devil then ,since the seer was told that to believe in the devil that it exists, and by the way the devil appeared, it is also telling that
it could impersonate Mary.

In other words, the incident does not only tells me that the devil exists
but that he can also become an impersonation of our Mother from Heaven.

I can not explain exactly what it is that I sense in this masquarading of the devil showing up just before the phenomena appears in the same spot.
I am hoping that I explained it well so that you understand my feelings regarding that issue.

Tks,
Maria

Joe,
I have read some about the Tilma, and if I remember well, the part that was added is fading.  Today the Tilma is well kept in a sealed glass. 
This might help the human made extras to last longer.

San Juan Diego was a widower and after he met Mary, he lived in a room adjacent to the Church.  He took care of the Tilma until he died.

peace,
Maria

Ryan,
I believe it is important for the seers of an apparition from Heaven to show more righteousness in their lives than people who don’t see apparitions from Heaven.

When Mary comes to a person, She is vindicated by the way that person acts, lives, and grows in the spiritual life. This latter is probably the most notorious of a true intervention from Heaven.
This is why, the seers of medj. are expected to be different than the rest of us.  We have not seen Mary.  We do not need to vindicate an apparition from Heaven.  They do.

Perhaps, this is why we tend to compare the seers of Medj. with the three shepherd from Fatima or with Bernadette from Lourdes.  We are expecting
a touch of heaven shown in them.  With only this one touch, God works miracles and the messages would spread without them having to leave their homes.

We are to have faith in God.  He said that if we had faith the size of a mustard seed it could move mountains!  Have you seen a mustard seed?
It is tiny!  Have you seen how big are the mountains?  Huge!

St. Therese the little flower, dreamed of being a saint like St. Teresa of Avila, and to bring the love of God to the world by traveling.  However, God works big in small things.  She could not travel, she stayed in a convent for all of her life.  But, her faith was probably as big as the mustard seed and now, that faith has moved mountains!  She is a missionary all over the world after her death.  She accomplished big things doing small deeds and she did not even have to travel to convince people that God exists.
She let God and God took over.  This is what we know of God’s works.

Most people tend to look in these small things for God’s interventions than in bigger things.  Bigger things tend to be complicated and sometimes get mixed up with the world.  Not a good thing.

Peace,
Maria

@ Ryan -

I was hoping to get your opinion on Archbishop Charles Chaput’s recent remarks at WYD.  I immediately thought of you when I read this.  I suppose I consider you somewhat of an expert in this field of secular news media, false reporting and Catholic bigotry.  I’d love to hear your input, how would you classify ministryvalues and what role does it play?

“We make a very serious mistake if we rely on media like the New York Times, Newsweek, CNN, or MSNBC for reliable news about religion. These news media simply don’t provide trustworthy information about religious faith—and sometimes they can’t provide it, either because of limited resources or because of their own editorial prejudices. These are secular operations focused on making a profit. They have very little sympathy for the Catholic faith, and quite a lot of aggressive skepticism toward any religious community that claims to preach and teach God’s truth.”

http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=19996

@dismas

I think Archbishop Charles Chaput is utterly correct.
Secular media hates the Church. We interviewed Randall Sullivan who is a best selling investigative journalist and at one time wrote for the Rolling Stones He has also been to Medjugorje .. You may find his comments interesting (Mr. Sullivan claims his career was damaged after revealing his religious beliefs and experiences)

Ministryvalues: Any thoughts on such religious bias in secular media? and Have you witnessed any such intellectual snobbery from individuals when researching the book, perhaps even from Church members who no longer believe in the miraculous?

Randall Sullivan:Have I witnessed such intellectual snobbery?  I’ve been trampled by it. It remains incredible to me how many so-called intellectuals resort to mindless ideological bigotry when confronted by claims of the miraculous. I think it has to do, ultimately, with the fact that a belief in the miraculous—in the supernatural, for that matter—is rooted in personal experience. People who’ve had that experience know what I’m talking about. People who haven’t are without a clue.  And yet we allow the clueless to impose their experiential deficits on the rest of us. It’s one of the more remarkable aspects of modern society that people who scoff at faith—despite being a tiny minority of our population—dominate the cultural apparatus. At least ninety percent of the people in this country believe in God. And yet in the precincts where I’ve spent most of my adult life—academia, the publishing industry and Hollywood—I doubt that the believers number nine percent.

@ Ryan

You present another global miracle chaser for our discernment.  Someone who not only makes his living by promoting the paranormal but also by promoting a belief in psuedo-spirituality.  This is not Catholicism.

Ryan, I am a Roman Catholic Christian and I believe everything that the Church teaches in matters of faith and morals. I believe Jesus Christ Founded the Catholic Church, that it is the one true Church. It is my desire that everyone on this planet become Roman Catholic and thus embrace the fullness of the faith given by Jesus Christ and revealed through the Apostles. Clear enough? That’s my agenda, what’s yours?

@ dismas

1.Sullivan is a catholic
2.dismas the trouble I have with you is that you tend to claim your Catholicism is best - that you have all the “I"s dotted and the “T"s crossed.

You are still stuck in the quagmire that Medjugorje is disobedient and therefore I am not a good catholic.. As i said i am really, really tired of defending that false charge.

@ Ryan,

In that case I quess there’s nothing left to say.  It’s just such a sword of sorrow that some would willfully take advantage of, defend and profit from the faith and curiosity of innocent believers, wouldn’t you agree?

It calls to mind the selling of indulgences or relics.  Oh well, I suppose there will always be a market, let the buyer beware.

In response to your earlier plea:

“This needs to stop it would make all the time i have spent on this board worthwhile if we could come to some agreement on this issue..How about it?  it would be a good thing dismas if I could move your way a little and you move towards medjugorje a little.” 

I agree, this needs to stop, there’s nothing left to say other than:  The cup you offer is poisoned, drink the poison yourself.  It’s been a pleasure Ryan, I’m only sorry I can’t compromise as easily as you.

@dismas

You righteousness is a bit scary I will leave you with some of “Our Lady’s “Poison”

Dear children! Today I call you to love. Little children, love each other with God’s love. At every moment, in joy and in sorrow, may love prevail and, in this way, love will begin to reign in your hearts. The risen Jesus will be with you and you will be His witnesses. I will rejoice with you and protect you with my motherly mantle. Especially, little children, I will watch your daily conversion with love. Thank you for having responded to my call. ”

“But if we talk about Our Lady and her messages, if we talk about someone who is privileged for Our Lady, it is our priests. Our Lady has never told us what priests should be doing. Rather she always talks about what we should do for them. She said they don’t need us to judge them, they need us love them and to pray for them. God will judge them for the way they were as priests. And God will judge us in the way we treated our priest. And Our Lady says that if we lose respect for our priest, then we will lose respect for our Church and for Dear God as well.

@ Ryan

I appreciate your concern for me, thank you.  I see you’ve retreated to hide deep within the dark gray clouds beneath the Madonna of no feet.  I also see you confuse ‘your poison’ and have twisted it into ‘Our Lady’s Poison.’ 

Come on Ryan, for someone who holds our Church in such great contempt and shows such vehement disrespect for one of it’s priests, Bishop Peric, who any longer can take you seriously or deem your intentions sincere?

You see Ryan, outside the Church we’re all just lost balls in high weeds.  Sure the Church has it’s share of weeds, I’m one to be sure.  However within the Church, we can never be lost, Jesus promised.

@dismas ..get over the Bishop disobedience business…It is just not true.. Let it go. 

you show great disrespect for the Church by chastising the Vatican’s handling of the medjugorje affair..

@Joe – regarding the points you made about a week ago, concerning the medical/scientific chapter in my book, which can be seen here:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/medjugor/13medical-scientific.pdf

I would just say that if you closely compare the approved apparitions with what happened at Medjugorje right at the beginning, there are definitely problems with the latter. There is a pattern so it’s not just a subjective thing.

Regarding the cures, it’s very difficult to pin things down with certainty to the devil – but we do know that none of them have been accepted by the Church, which is the important point.

It’s not the case that the local bishop has accepted the scientific studies discussed in the book as ryan asserts. Since ryan hasn’t read that chapter (or any of the others) his opinions about my book are totally worthless - but I’m not getting into any further discussion on this topic as it has obviously run its course.

To whom should I listen?  Church appointed Bishop Peric or self appointed anti-bishop Ryan?

“It is you who are divided here on earth” by the gospa of Medj.

Let me see if I what I understand if this sentence correlates with what I have read on the Gospel.

“Do not think that I come to bring peace to the world. No. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. I came to set sons against fathers, daughters against their mothers, ..” Mat.10;34-35

I have the notion that Jesus coming brought about a division within peoples.  The Jews who are the chosen people of Israel, God’s chosen people, were divided over during Jesus’s time and after Jesus resurrection. Jesus coming divided the Jews.  Some became Christians and some didn’t.  But, even before Jesus came, there was a division among the people of the area.  God had chosen a particular people to be His own.
Ever since Genesis, God was in command and He molded His own people and we see this in the Old Testament.  This chosen people were different from any others in the world.  Therefore, for me, this was a division of faith done and ordered by God Himself so that HE would send His Own Son to deliver His Own people from bondage. 

The outsiders during the time of Jesus, or those who weren’t Jewish, particularly the Samaritans, they were called the dogs.  Jesus at a time was asked by a woman not Jewish to heal her daughter.  He said that he only came to heal the lost sheep of Israel.  That it was not acceptable to
give the bread of the children to the dogs.  And the woman said that even the dogs eat of from the pieces which fall off from the master’s table.

We are still divided and it is mostly because of our different faiths.

Peace,
Maria

@dismas

How about listening to the Catholic church .. maybe start with the Vatican and there guidance on medjugorje or are you a “Sedavacantist” that doesn’t accept the Holy See as legitimate?

Through His Excellency, Bishop Peric of Mostar, the Church has spoken Ryan.  Neither Bishop Peric nor the Holy See has done anything to place his apostolic succession and authority in question.  His seat is not vacant.  Stop your foolishness Ryan.  Read for yourself his Excellency’s guidance.  It’s all there in black and white:

http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?menuID=98

@dismas
you are one hard headed guy. Just why the has the Vatican organized a commission to investigate and rule on medjugorje?

Already asked and answered in the following document Ryan.  I think this will be the fourth time the document has been introduced in this thread:

SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
_________________________________________________________

(Sub secreto)

NORMS OF THE SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
ON THE MANNER OF PROCEEDING IN JUDGING ALLEGED APPARITIONS AND
REVELATIONS

PREFATORY NOTE

THE ORIGIN AND CHARACTER OF THESE NORMS

In the Annual Plenary Session held in November 1974, the Fathers of this Sacred Congregation examined problems arising from alleged apparitions and the revelations frequently connected in origin with them and arrived at the following conclusions:
1. Today, more than in the past, news of apparitions is quickly spread among the faithful through the work of the means of information («mass media»); furthermore, the convenience of travel fosters more frequent pilgrimages, so that the ecclesiastical Authority needs to discern the matter quickly.
2. On the other hand, due to the modern way of thinking and the requirements of science and critical investigation, it is most difficult, and nearly impossible, to manage with due speed to reach the judgment by which investigations into such matters were concluded in the past («constat de supernaturalitate, non constat de supernaturalitate») and which provided Ordinaries the possibility of permitting or prohibiting public veneration [cultus] and other forms of devotion by the faithful.
For these reasons, so that the devotion of the faithful occasioned by events of this kind may be manifested while preserving full communion with the Church, and bear fruit by which the Church herself may be able in the future to discern the true nature of the events, the Fathers deemed that the following praxis is to be encouraged in such matters.

When the ecclesiastical Authority is informed of some alleged apparition or revelation, it will be his task:

a) First, to judge the event according to positive and negative criteria (cf. below, part I);

b) Then, if that examination has a favorable outcome, to allow some public manifestations of veneration and devotion, and at the same time, watch over them with great prudence (this is equivalent to the formula «nothing to oppose for now»);

c) Later, with the benefit of time past and of experience (in particular, the abundance of spiritual fruits arising from the new devotion), if the case requires, to present a judgment on its validity [veritate] and supernatural character.

I – CRITERIA FOR JUDGING, AT LEAST WITH PROBABILITY,
THE CHARACTER OF THE ALLEGED APPARITIONS OR REVELATIONS

A) Positive Criteria:

a) Moral certitude or at least great probability as to the existence of the events, acquired through the work of a serious investigation.

b) Particular circumstances regarding the existence and nature of the events, i.e.:

1. Personal qualities of the subject or subjects (especially mental equilibrium, honesty and rectitude of moral life, habitual sincerity and docility toward ecclesiastical authority, capacity for returning to the regimen of a normal life of faith, etc.);

2. As pertains to the revelation, true theological and spiritual doctrine, exempt from error;

3. Healthy devotion and abundant and constant spiritual fruits (for example, the spirit of prayer, conversions, the testimony of charity, etc.).

B) Negative Criteria:

a) A manifest error about the event.

b) Doctrinal errors attributed to God Himself, to the Blessed Virgin Mary or to some other Saint manifesting himself (while taking into account the possibility of the subject adding — even unconsciously — purely human elements, or even some error in the natural order, to an authentic supernatural revelation [cf. S. Ignatius, Exercit. N. 336]).

c) An evident seeking of money closely connected with the event.

d) Gravely immoral acts at the time of the event itself or in association with it, committed by the subject or by his close followers.

e) Mental illnesses or psychopathic tendencies in the subject that clearly exercised an influence on the allegedly supernatural event, or psychosis or collective hysteria, or other things of this kind.
These Criteria, both positive and negative, should be considered indicative and not exhaustive [taxativa], and should be taken cumulatively, as it were, in convergence with one another.

II — HOW THE COMPETENT ECCLESIASTICAL AUTHORITY IS TO PROCEED

1. When veneration or some other devotion on the part of the faithful appears to begin spontaneously in connection with an event alleged to be supernatural, a serious duty falls upon the competent ecclesiastical Authority to inform himself without delay and to keep watch diligently.

2. If the faithful are legitimately requesting it (that is, in communion with the Pastors and not driven by a sectarian spirit), the competent ecclesiastical Authority can intervene, to permit and promote some forms of veneration and devotion, if, according to the Criteria as noted above, there is no obstacle to them. Nevertheless, there should be caution lest the faithful take this manner of acting as an approval on the part of the Church for the supernatural character of the event (cf. Prefatory note, under c).

3. Indeed by reason of his doctrinal and pastoral duty, the competent Authority can intervene motu proprio [on his own initiative] and must do so in grave circumstances, for example, in order to correct or warn against abuses in the exercise of veneration and devotion, to condemn erroneous doctrines, to avoid the dangers of false or disorderly mysticism, etc.

4. In uncertain cases that make little difference to the good of the Church, let the competent ecclesiastical Authority abstain from any judgment and direct action (it may even happen that, with the passage of time, the event said to be supernatural may fall into oblivion); nonetheless he should not leave off vigilance, so that if necessary, he can intervene promptly and prudently.

III — THE AUTHORITY COMPETENT TO INTERVENE

1. The office of supervising and intervening is, first of all, within the competence of the local Ordinary.

2. The regional or national Episcopal Conference can intervene:

a) If the local Ordinary, after carrying out his part, has recourse to it in order to judge the matter more securely;

b) If the matter is of national or regional scope; nonetheless, the prior consent of the local Ordinary is necessary.

3. The Apostolic See can intervene, either at the request of the Ordinary or of a qualified group of the faithful, or even directly, by reason of the universal jurisdiction of the Supreme Pontiff (cf. IV, below).

IV — INTERVENTION BY THE SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

1. a) The Ordinary can request intervention of the Sacred Congregation, even after he has carried out his part, or a qualified group of the faithful can ask. In the latter case care should be taken lest recourse to the Sacred Congregation be made for reasons that are suspect (e.g. to compel the Ordinary to change his legitimate decisions, to confirm some sectarian group, etc.).

b) It is proper to the Sacred Congregation to intervene at its own initiative in more serious cases, especially if the matter affects a larger part of the Church; the Ordinary is always to be consulted and, if appropriate, also the Episcopal Conference.

2. The Sacred Congregation will be able either to evaluate the Ordinary’s manner of acting and approve it, or, if possible and appropriate, to initiate a new examination of the matter, distinct from the study completed by the Ordinary, either on its own or through a special commission.

* * *

After the present Norms were deliberated in the Plenary Session of this Sacred Congregation, they were approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Pope Paul VI, happily reigning, 24 February, 1978.

Given in Rome from the offices of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 25 February, 1978.

Francis Cardinal Seper, Prefect [Signature]
+ Fr. Jerome Hamer, OP, Secretary [Signature]

Your illogic is as circular as I am hard headed.  I’ve reposted the document that answers your question eventhough it’s been reference 3 times already.  The post containing the document is awaiting moderation,  but you care to, you read it here: http://d-rium.blogspot.com/p/normae-s-congregationis.html

@dismas..

you still have not answered the SIMPLE question. Why has the Vatican created a commsion made up of at least 20 people to investigate Medjugorje and ultimately rule.

I am done with this board if you can not give a thoughtful answer that addresses this question with the respect a commission organized by the Vatican deserves.

The problem here is not the lack of thoughtful answers.  The problem is a (my)lack of unthoughtful consideration.

A reminder of the following facts to the readers of the present thread:

-  after the negative verdict—- “non constat de supernaturalitate”—- of the second Diocesan Commission, a pastoral directive has been signed by the Ordinary of Mostar and the President of the Yugoslavian Bishops’ Conference, in January 1987: “it is not permitted to organize either pilgrimages or other religious manifestations based on an alleged supernatural character attributed to Medjugorje’s events.”
-  that negative verdict has been confirmed in the Zadar declaration in 1991;
-  Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the CDF, has confirmed in 1991 the meaning of the “non constat”: “The investigation was, as I said, very thorough, very broad and very objective. And, consequently, one had to say: the supernatural character of the phenomenon is not established.”
-  the pastoral directive has been confirmed by the Secretary of the CDF in May 1998, after the Bishop of Mostar expressed the following wish in October 1997 (14 years ago): “I am open to a study that the Holy See would undertake, as the supreme court of the Catholic Church, to speak the supreme and definitive judgment on the case, and that as soon as possible, for the good of souls and for the honour of the Church and of Our Lady.”
-  the pastoral directive is still valid in 2011;
-  as the “phenomenon” is not supernatural because no evidence has been found to prove the case, there is an important conclusion to draw: the religious manifestations organized with or without the visionaries in Medjugorje with the Lady of Medjugorje presented as the supernatural character “Gospa” constitute a mighty coup de force [takeover by force] against the competent authority that formulated the pastoral directive;
-  from those facts, “disobedience” may be deduced, not from the sincere pilgrims, but from the Medjugorje Franciscans, the visionaries, and the propagandists who conceal that directive and the meaning of it;
-  all the references for the quoted declarations are presented in my recent article: http://en.louisbelanger.com/2011/08/15/“for-the-holy-see-medjugorje-is-a-tormenting-dilemma”-vittorio-messori-–-right-wrong-there-is-no-dilemma-part-2/
Cordially,
Louis Bélanger

@Belanger

You are misleading and WRONG.

1. Priests and officials of the Church can not “organize” pilgrimages to Medjugorje but everybody is free to go to Medjugorje and thousands of priests, hundreds of bishops and even some Cardinals exercise that right

2. you are very misleading with your “Latin” “non constat” Bull S%$T. Doubters ALWAYS use the Latin because it somehow elevates their argument and bestows some air of authority on themselves.
The truth and Cardinal Schonborn “Editorial Director of the Catholic Catechism” has EXPLICITLY spoken about the issue of the Supernatural nature of Medjugorje is that the supernatural events have not been established nor have they ruled out. That is why the Vatican commission is looking into the matter.  Belanger you have no business challenging one of the Church’s experts.

Your nuanced, tortured, pseudo legalistic nonsense needs to stop misleading good people.  Let the Church do its work..

Latin is the language of the Church.

@ Deoacveritati

And your point?

If you really had any knowledge of what the Church says regarding   apparitions or anything about the Church in general, you would stop attacking those of us who have better undertanding of Church teaching.
The bishops responsable for the dioceses of Medjugorje have rule out the apparitions of the Gospa are not of supernatural origen, yet you continously opposed them.
Yes, the Vatican has finally form a commision to investigate the nonsense going at Medjugorje, if you ask me it was about time.
Like I said before, I openly blame the Vatican for allowing this mess to have gone on for as long as it has.
I don’t believe that Non Constant de supernaturalite is latin. But if you attack some of us for enjoying our use of Latin,well it is the official lenguage of the Church, but you probably don’t even know that do you Ryan???

I don’t think Archbishop Schonborn’s opinion on the supernaturality of Medjugorje is binding on anyone.  I believe that it is his personal opinion as a human being. 

Ryan, you mention Bishop Schonborn and I have a feeling that you think he is the man to follow regarding the happenings in Medj.
Just remember that He is a Bishop and member of the Catholic Church college of Bishops and by himself, without this body, he is only a private person.

Also, he, like you and I, are still in this trial process and we live with the possibility of failing and falling into sin even after we migth have accomplished great things for the Church.

I think that just because Bishop Schonborn, and I commend him for that and thank God for his accomplishments, did a great deed in the past like being the editorial director of the Catholic Cathecism does not automatically give him the
free pass to a saintly life, nor does it protect him from falling away from the teachings of the church, nor does it even protect him from teaching heretics.  I am not saying that he does, I don’t think he does, what I am saying is that he is not immune to fall and sin just like anybody else here living today in the world.

Compare this to the responsibility of Bishop Peric in that Bishop Peric does have the authority to rule on the apparitions of Medjugorje because he is the Ordinary of that place not Bishop Schonborn.

Even, if Bishop Peric sins, he is human and we all sin, what he says on MEdj. is binding because he has the grace and authority given to him from God through the Church as a representative of the Apostles.

Think about the sacrament of confession…where our priests, human beings that can fall into sin,just like us, represent Jesus Christ during confession because it is the grace given to them by God through the authority of the Church to hear and forgive sins in the name of Jesus.

I believe that when ,and only when, there is an apparition in the diocese of Bishop Schonborn, then Bishop Schonborn would have the responsibility and duty to rule on that apparition that pertains to his diocese, but not on someone else’s diocese.

peace,
Maria

sworn statment made by Major-General Liam Prendergast, about meeting with Bishop Peric

Peric says does not believe in apparitions at Fatima

http://www.marytv.tv/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=360:sworn-statement-regarding-an-october-9-1998-meeting-with-bishop-peric&catid=8:denis-blog&Itemid=21

Maria, Schonborn hosted scheduled apparition events in Vienna’s cathedral in 2008 and 2010 and is planning another for 2011.

Just in Major-General Liam Prendergast in sworn statemant

Major-General Liam Prendergast in meeting with Bishop Peric

Bishop Peric says he does not believe in apparitions at Fatima.

There’s a lot about this statement that strikes me as fishy. What was the original purpose of the meeting with Peric? The letterhead says the NMCI is appointed to co-ordinate the spread of the apparition messages. Appointed by whom?

Cardinal Christoph Schönborn is the least indicated person to take seriously when it comes to Medjugorje.
Schönborn knowingly defied Bishop Peric when he visited Medjugoje 2009, this man is a liberal and encourages bad example.
Cardinal Schönborn apostolic see in Austria is in such mess it’s not even funny,the archdiocese of Viena has the most Catholics leaving the Chuch in Austria, add to that 300 of his priests have rebelled against the Church, and are demanding the Church changes its laws by encouraging the ordenation of women into the priesthood, and allowing priests to get married.
Although Schönborn says he will not support these rebels opinions at the Vatican, he is not doing anything to discourage their rebelion against Holy Mother Church either.
Now if this man even though a Cardinal of the Roman Church is supporting things like disobendience to the Church, and on top of that disregarded the opinion of Bishop Peric on the issue of Medjugorje, then i’m sorry, but he should not be taken seriously.
It is no secret that this man in many Catholic circles is consider an apostate.
I know many of you might not like my opinions, and please feel free to ignore them but it doesn’t change the fact that we have a crisis within the Church and Medjugorje is one little example on the whole issue.
I want to clarify I am not a Sedevacantist and I don’t belong to the SSPX, I am a traditionalist when it comes to respect and practice on Church Doctrine.

@Deoacveritati

1. jesus rebeled against the teachings of the dominate faith

2. The beauty, wonder and genius of Medjugojre is the blessed lack of politics. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s

3. Denying God, Satan are the enemy.

4. Deoacveritati, you tipped you hand pretty good with your “liberal” comment - you are mired in the quicksand of defining your faith with your political beliefs.. The Catholic Church is not a political party.

5. the # 1 reason I look to medjugorje to strengthen my faith is it is void of politics - The Caritas Medjugorje movement in Birmingham is a poison (Patriotic rosary, “Mejenomics” etc) that movement reeks of Christian right/ religion wrapped in an American Flag.

6.Politics and Christianity are destroying the Gospels and the ministry of Jesus Christ. I deeply respect the chirtian rights love of God. I reject their politicking because I never hear the voice of jesus in their message. i hear fundraising and political hot buttons.

7.medjugorje renews the Gospels and brings them back to life.

Regarding this letter from the Major-General, this is the info in Michael Davies’s online Medjugorje book (www.mdaviesonmedj.com/fulltext.rtf ):

He says: “A letter From Mr. Bernard Ellis published in the same issue of the Catholic Herald contained the following scandalous allegation:

‘As Bishop Peric told Fr John Chisholm, a theologian well respected by the Vatican, that he personally did not believe in the apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima, it is hardly surprising that he refuses to attribute these Fruits to a supernatural visitation in Medjugorje.’

I (ie Michael Davies) contacted Monsignor Peric immediately and he assured me that the allegation is false. The claim that Father Chisholm is “a theologian well respected by the Vatican” is simply a gratuitous claim by Mr. Ellis.  I obtained the address of this priest, a private home and not an ecclesiastical establishment, and wrote to him on 15 July 2002 to ask whether he had made the statement that Mr. Ellis had attributed to him.  My letter included the following:

‘You may be aware of the fact that you were quoted in the Catholic Herald of 12 July as stating that Monsignor Peric had told you that he does not believe in the apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima. I immediately telephoned Monsignor Peric, with whom I am in regular contact, and he denied emphatically that he had ever made any such statement to anyone. He confirmed this by fax and tells me that although you spent some time with his secretary he does not recollect granting you an interview.’

Father Chisholm did not reply.”

So, it may well be that this conversation did not take place as reported on the Nolan site.

ryan said: “# 1 reason I look to medjugorje to strengthen my faith is it is void of politics” - but this is quite wrong since the nationalist politics of many of the Hercegovina Franciscans has been one of the driving forces behind the whole Medjugorje phenomenon.

And if the Caritas movement is “a poison”, how come Marija is such as strong supporter of it?

Jesus did not rebel against the teachings of the law of God, He lived it and followed it to the last word.  He fullfilled it.

What he did to those who used the teachings in the Law in their own manner to their own advantage was to uncover their tricks regarding the wrong use of the Law.

He called upon those who used the Law to their own advantage by telling the faithful to do things when they themselves were not doing them.

The Law is the Law it does not change what changes It is us, the humans by interpreting It differently and some do it by using it to spread own agendas.

This is why is important to read and learn what the deposit of the faith and things of morals teach us through the Church rather than following a human instinct or experiences such as those who are supporting an apparition which the Church has not deemed authentic.

Peace,
Maria

@ Ryan

It’s you who tip your hand, Ryan.  Jesus came to establish the Catholic Church on earth.  The Catholic Church is the fulillment of the scriptures, it’s the continuation and perfection from the the old law to the new.  Why do you try to destroy and subvert what He has established on earth?

@foley wrong .. The swore letter sigend by a General emphatically states the

Peric said he did not beleive in the apparitions of Fatima.. Go to the link and read it

Peric said he did not beleive in the apparitions of Fatima

Ryan conveniently ignores the fact Prendergast is a Medjugorje devotee.

@joe

and you think everybody associated with medjugorje is a lier. Nothing will ever satisfy you.. The fact that that the position of most doubters is that they are dissapointed with the Vatican that they have not shut Medjugorje down pretty much says it all. Even the Vatica’s position is not satisfactory. Do you all read you own stuff?

Sworn statement that Peric said he does not beleive in the apparitions at Fatima.

@ryan - I don’t believe Bishop Peric speaks English, so it is possible, if this meeting did take place, that there was a misunderstanding over what was said. But in any event, as Michael Davies points out, Bishop Peric categorically denies making any such statement.

The case of Marija and Caritas is a far more important concern – if Caritas is “poison” how come the “Gospa” hasn’t put Marija right on this? After all, she is supposed to be seeing her every day.

It is not a sworn statement.

Ryan,

I’m not disappointed with the Vatican.  The current position of the Vatican and the new commission, as with any such occurence, continues to be negative until proven otherwise.  Unfortunately, you are unable to prove it otherwise, so you have noone but yourself to be disappointed with.  Futhermore two Bishops of the local ordinary have declared it to be unworthy of belief which was also confirmed by a previous commission in the Zadar declaration.

I don’t know what you mean by the Vatican ‘shutting it down.’  Let’s be honest, Ryan, even if the Vatican made another unnecessary declaration of unworthy of belief, people like you would continue to disobediently whine, complain and mislead others until the end of time. 

No, Ryan, it’s only you that disappoints.

Marji is a much better person and Our Lady teaches us to not to judge.. Marji goes there with love and nothing more.

Ever Our Lady asks us to pray for all priests - God will judge them them for there work in the end.. good advice. 

Personally if Medjugorje gets better known the secular press will quickly claim that Caritas is medjugorje…This is how satan will attack Medjugorje .. This is what I beleive and it is sad.  Greg Kandra (well known Catholic pundit) has personally told me that Medjugorje = Caritas

again Donal you attach weight to your speculations and dismiss facts - it is your M.O…. i have no words left to describe your efforts

sworn statement by a General that Bishop Peric says he does not believe in in the apparitions of Fatima.

Todays “Message”

“Dear children! Today I call you to pray and fast for my intentions, because Satan wants to destroy my plan. Here I began with this parish and invited the entire world. Many have responded, but there is an enormous number of those who do not want to hear or accept my call. Therefore, you who have said ‘yes’, be strong and resolute. Thank you for having responded to my call.”

Is it me or am I the only one who finds the messages of the Gospa empty of meaning??
The Gospa is thanking people for having responded to her call, and my question is what call??
A call to disobedience to the bishops of the area?
The Gospa has told the visionaries that the bishop is “bad” and that he will be punish, and that it is her will [the Gospa that is],that his decrees regarding the expulsion of certain de-frocked clerics be ignored.?? What?? Those clerics should have been excommunicated, just like the rebel priests in Austria.
For my part, I can say I’m grateful to God that I haven’t responded to her call.
The other thing I don’t get, is why she appears daily to some of the visionaries, what is the point???
The world is not better off because of the so called flowing graces coming from Medjugorje.
The perfect example among many may I add, is the two terrible wars in Bosnia, which included genocide,plus horrible crimes such as muder,torture,arbitrary arrests,extrajudicial killings, rape, sexual assault, displacement and deportation of civilian population and so much more, all of it evil.
I mean, war is evil in nature, and these horrific crimes sadly are part of war, but for what I read Fatima was untouched by WW1 and WW2.
And I ask, I am suppossed to believe this apparitions are from heaven?? Right.
To me it sounds more like manifestations of the evil one’s presence in the area.
I am sure some Mariologists and theologians are just as puzzle as I am about the inconsistencies of the messages, and not only that but the messages are at least to me empty of meaning, and the comments of the Gospa, and here we go again about the Red Hanky like what was that all about??
Let’s read it again, this is from an earlier post from I am not Spartacus:
“Here is an excerpt of Vicka’s Diary (September 4, 1981):

“We asked about a man who had seen Jesus on his way when he was taking some people to their destination. He [the driver] met a man all bloodied. That man was Jesus.

Jesus gave him a bloodied handkerchief and asked him to throw it into a river. Driving further on, he met a woman. And that woman was the Blessed Virgin Mary, and she asked the driver to hand the bloodied hankie over to her.

The driver offered her his own hankie, but the Gospa wanted the bloody one. When the driver gave her the bloody hankie, the Gospa said: “If you had not given it to me, that would have been the end of the world.”

The Gospa said that was the truth.” [The Hidden Side of Medjugorje, p. 250]

This incoherent. Think of it the world would have ended if the driver would not have given the bloodied hankerchief to the Gospa.
Hmmm…. the end of the world would have happen over a handkerchief,this statement from the Gospa is unbiblical or better yer anti-biblical.
The Apocalypse is clear on how the world is going to end, the only thing we don’t know is when, but even then we shall know by the signs in the heaven etc. etc.
But I don’t remember reading anything about any bloodied handkerchief in the Apocalypse.
Has anyone read anything like it???
Have you Ryan???

@Deoacveritati

You may want to reread your passage because you make a good argument that the apparitions are authentic….

You mention genocide in Bosnia
fatima warned of atheism—millions died at the hands of atheist russians and hundreds of millions died at the hands of atheist china - then there was Germany
Kibeho Rwanda-Bishop approved apparition warned of a “river of blood” before the genocide
Guadalupe was followed overtime with the ethnic cleansing of native americas in the United States

Our Lady’s warning should be heeded - Her appearances are often associated with sadly with horror and genocide It is why she comes to help people return to God

Also Fatima said - “In the end my immaculate heart will triumph - Our Lady at Medjugorje says Medjugorje is the continuation and fulfillment of Fatima,

Deoacveritati, I say to you through Our Lady at Medjugorje Our Lady’s heart will triumph - if not at medjugorje Deoacveritati where then will Fatima’s prophecy begin its fulfillment. You see, without Medjugorje,  it becomes very difficult to see how Fatima’s predictions unfold. Without Medjugorje, Fatima fades away.

Also turns out I have read about Our Lady’s role with end times in the bible.

“A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head”

Deoacveritati, it’s not just you.  The most disturbing and contradictory thing about the ‘bloody hanky’ story is that Jesus apparently requested and willed the bloody hanky to be thrown in the river.  Why would Gospa subvert the will of God?  Why did did Gospa prevent Jesus’ will from being accomplished by preventing the bloody hanky from being thrown in the river?  What are we supposed to glean from this story?  Are we suppose to conclude that it’s not Jesus who saves, but Gospa? 

No it’s not Mirjana’s or the Franciscan’s message of the day I care to reflect on.  I much prefer today’s readings from the Mass, here’s today’s first reading, lets take a look:

1 Thessalonians 4: 1 - 8
1 Finally, brethren, we beseech and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you learned from us how you ought to live and to please God, just as you are doing, you do so more and more.  2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus.  3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity; 4 that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God;
6 that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we solemnly forewarned you. 7 For God has not called us for uncleanness, but in holiness.
8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

Oh and by the way, regarding Fatima.  Our Lady’s Heart will triumph not through Medj, but through the conversion of the hearts and minds of men.  Fatima doesn’t fade away without Medj, it’s the secular Medj media machine like ministryvalues that subvert truth and distract from the message of Fatima.  Shame on you Ryan.

@dismas medjugorje - Our Lady’s call has converted MILLIONS of hearts and minds - and yet you deny this reality.

“distract from the message of Fatima?” Is that what this is all about (i know that is what Foley is about he has told me)

Fatima led me to Medjugorje .. How does Medjugorje distract from Fatima. Medjugorje puts a spotlight on Fatima

“What I have started in Fatima I will finish in Medjugorje. My heart will triumph” If you adhere to the messages of Fatima and if you believe “Our Lady of Fatima’s” call( which Bishop Peric apparently does not)  that “My heart will triumph” how on earth can you not at least think for a moment that perhaps medjugorje is where it starts - it is unarguable fact that Medjugorje is the most significant Marian event on this planet whether it has been approved or not - it is about the “Virgin Mary” and it is significant.

You want to destroy medjugorje and start from scratch. You and I will be dead hundred years before we see anything like medjugorje again

It is happening “Dismas” and i recommend you get on the bus.

No thanks Ryan, I can walk to my parish Church.  Shame on you.

although i am not a theologian nor a mariologist this messages by the gospa of medj. are troubling for me. 

This one of 8/25/11, where it says that satan wants to destory her plans, does not really sound like Mary our Mother.  Mary our Mother is the one who strikes the head of the serpent, she is our protection from the devil. The devil runs away when she is near.  Satan fears Mary.
The thing is that wanting to destroy compared with actually destroying it are two very different things.  Satan might want to destroy but he will never and can never do it.  Satan can not destroy anything God does.
This is then a message of fear….sending the faithful unsubstantiated fears (fears where the thing mentioned can not happen and can not exists). 

the message has a lot of psychological and sublime aspects.  Especially of inducing fear, guilt, anxiety, sensationalism, in those who read it and believe it. 

What about if I am one of those that do not hear her call? I should feel guilty that I don’t?  That I might be letting satan want to ruin her plans? Wow! this seems too much for the faithful to deal with if one is not grounded in the faith taught by Mother CHurch.  I go by what the Church tells me , I am not bound to believe in private revelations to be saved.  This is the hope makes my soul tranquil and sure that I do not have to listen to messages of fear from a phenomena that has not been deem authentic from God. 

Peace,
Maria

@Ryan on Thursday, Aug 25, 2011 3:39 PM (EDT) Ryan, in a way I do think everybody associated with Medjugorje is a liar. Marija has been proven to be a liar, and not just about peripheral matters, but about the very messages themselves, as I pointed out above. Mirjana has demonstrated public behavior that has no reasonable explanation apart from deception on her part, as I pointed out above. As for you, given your command of logic and of rational thought in general, I’m not sure you’re psychologically capable of lying, because you don’t seem to recognize the difference between truth and falsehood, as I also pointed out above. Ethically speaking, anyone who supports the Medjugorje phenomenon shares therefore in its lies; so yes, Ryan, in that sense I do believe every person associated with Medjugorje is a liar, either a liar simply speaking, or a liar to himself.

@Ryan on Thursday, Aug 25, 2011 4:21 PM (EDT) But Caritas is Medjugorje, Ryan. The Gospa appears there.

@maria

It is important to understand apparitions of the virgin Mary have a history of disturbing images and prophesies - approved apparitions. Kibeho -“There will be a river of blood” - Akita talked of Cardinal against Cardinal- Bishop against Bishop.

Fatima had very disturbing messages that came true. With medjugorje there is a coherence with other apparitions - make no mistake about that -

@joe - if you think everybody associated with Mejdugorje is a liar then you are ______________ uped in the head. You faith in humanity is depressing. You are only interest in your righteousness - You have the intellectual curiosity of a bowling ball.

Ryan,
I know that approved apparitions have come with serious prophecies but it is different to say that there will be a war, which is a possbile true, we agree that wars are possible due to our sins, but the thing I was talking about is that satan is not able to destroy anything God plans nor anything that God does, thereby the statement that satan wants to destroy her plans is deceiptful.

It is deceiptful for me because satan can not destroy God’s plan. Never.
But it is more deceiptful because it is said in a way that one who does not believe in the power Mary the mother of God, has over satan and thus this statement can’t be seriously taken by serious Christians.

Whoever is writing this messages understands that to put that satan wants to destroy is acceptable to theologians because satan has always wanted to destroy God’s plans it is a Known truth.  But, that is all he is able to think, or wish for, to want to destroy it, satan can not do it.

If the message would had said; “satan is destroying my plans” believe me, that would had been enough material for theologians to advice the commission to stop the whole thing.  People who are writing this messages know that so that is why they are writing fear monger messages that inflict fear.

Satan can want all he want but he can’t do all he wants!
Only God can permit him to do some things.
Peace,
Maria

@maria

Satan seems to be destroying the world and filling it with sin. I am not sure I understand you. If god permits satan to do things then why does god permit people to sin and fall from grace. Satan is powerful and is destroying humanities belief in God.  God gave us free will. Satan seeks to take advantage of that. Debating the relationship between God and satan is way beyond my pay scale .. I will leave that for the theologians.
For me the enormous grace, the call for prayer, penance and reconciliation with God that comes from Medjugorje far out weigh doubts about interpretations of Our Lady’s words that . Most importantly .. That is what the Vatican commission will sort out and determine. The vatican investigation will spend a lot of time with the messages I would think

@Deoacveritati on Friday, Aug 26, 2011 4:04 AM (EDT) No, it’s not just you, Deo. As I mentioned above (8/1 11:59) they all sound the same to me, all forty thousand. Reminds me of Samuel Johnson’s notorious definition: “Oats. A grain, which in England is generally given to horses, but in Scotland supports the people.”

Speaking of the bloody handkerchief, I have a theory, but I may be banned here for articulating it. Going back to the tilma of Guadalupe, that cloth shows a glowing expectant mother (don’t they all glow?), a model of purity and of ritual cleanness, the apex of womanhood.

Could the blood-soaked rag have been connected somehow with another aspect of womanhood? I have in mind Isaiah 64:6, the literal meaning of ????? ???????. I mean, that would explain the apparition’s extreme anxiety over retrieving it and preventing its unsanitary disposal in the river. Hey, it’s not an edifying theory, but it’s not an edifying story either. But if my theory is correct, then the “Jesus” of the apparition, covered as he was in that blood, would have been a model of ritual uncleanness of the most disgustingly imaginable kind, not to mention horrifyingly irreverent. And as spiritual writers say, when the devil counterfeits an apparition of a holy one, there is always a detail that is a little off that gives him away. So whoever this “Jesus” was, it probably wasn’t the real Jesus. And if this “Jesus” wasn’t the real Jesus, then maybe this “Gospa” isn’t the real Gospa either. Oh well. As Ryan would say, “speculation and musing”.

@Joe -

Uhg, gross, ick, YUCK, too perverted for words.  Oh God, that I could scrub my brain. ENOUGH!

@Dismas on Friday, Aug 26, 2011 8:09 AM (EDT) Dismas, I agree that Medjugorje distracts from Fatima, but then again, apparitions in general are distracting to some degree, approved or not. But try this sometime: Ask a Medjugorje devotee what the Five Stones are and he’ll recite them without skipping a beat. Then ask him about the Five First Saturdays.

Joe, I agree with Dismas, yuck.
I don’t think your theory is correct, but I will agree with you on the “Jesus” of the story is not the real Jesus and neither is the Gospa.
Now let’s examine this,why would the suppossed “Jesus” want to end the world by asking the driver to throw the bloodied handkerchief in the river???....My understanding is that only the Father knows when the world would end.
This story would make Jesus rebelling against the Father’s will; kind of a coup d’état something the devil tried to do and lead to his fall.
And who does the driver symbolize?? Who is he?? Where is he from?? who are this people on the bus??
Where are they going??? on what context is the story told?? what is the meaning of this story, what does it has to do with the Mystery of Salvation???
Why would the Gospa ask for the handkerchief if the “Jesus” from the story had asked the driver to throw it in the river??....That would make the Gospa going against the will of her Son.
If we look at this from a theological perspective Our Blessed Mother would never go against her Son, but no only that Jesus precipitating the end the world by asking the driver to throw the bloodied hankie in the river and going against God the Father??
The story is satanic!
I’m sorry but the whole thing is disturbing.

@Ryan on Friday, Aug 26, 2011 12:33 PM (EDT) Ryan, here’s what my intellectual curiosity has come up with. Your disbelief in Caritas is not going to change the facts, not going to change the reality of what countless numbers of people have experienced there, the conversions, the miracles. Your hatred of America and of the Christian Right in general colors your perception of what God is doing in the hearts and minds of the people who go there in good faith. You’re just jealous because as an investment adviser you missed the opportunity to cash in on the Medjugorje phenomenon, settling for a website that eats up your time yet pays worse than a lawn care job while Colafrancesco rakes in millions in donations alone, not to mention the income from the publishing and from the pilgrimage agency. In your rabid, mouth-foaming jealousy you probably are disappointed the Vatican has not shut Caritas down. Because as ministries go, yours is not much of a value, is it?

Caritas is Medjugorje, Ryan. One of the visionaries even said that for those who cannot go to Medjugorje, Medjugorje has come to them. Caritas along with the worldwide traveling apparitions are the fulfillment of this. The patriotic rosary that you wave away with your hand was inspired by the Gospa and is prayed by countless people in every state of life. You’re just anti-American. You probably think Obama’s not really the president. And you probably think everybody associated with Caritas is a lier. Caritas was built in support of the Medjugorje phenomenon, Ryan. The Gospa has repeatedly appeared there and blessed it. The local bishop, after initially warming up to it, ultimately turned his back on it, but as we all know that’s only his fallible personal opinion that he stubbornly maintains in the face of the facts. Caritas doubters call it a fraud or a hoax yet after 25 years there is not one shred of evidence. Please, the next time you call Caritas a poison, do me a favor and provide your evidence, not childish Sherlock Holmes deductive reasoning like “It must be a fraud because that movement reeks of Christian right/ religion wrapped in an American Flag”.

I appeal to you, rigidly intellectual bowling-ball-head that I am: Look at the fruits! How fair to the eyes! How delightful to behold! For if Medjugorje is the continuation of Fatima, then Birmingham is the continuation of Medjugorje!

@Deo/Dismas LOL sorry ‘bout that. Isaiah 64:6 came up in another conversation and the connection hit me. (Thanks, by the way, for not accusing me of being misleading with my “Hebrew” bulls-percent-dollarsign-t. I was hoping it would elevate my argument.)

But the Bible has numerous significant references to rivers, in connection with the Ark of the Covenant, the throne of heaven, the axe-head, the river of Babylon, John the Baptist, Gideon, Philip, Naaman, and so on, but perhaps most notably Moses and the Ten Plagues. Perhaps the vision had to do with making the sacrament of baptism unclean? Because invalid and illicit sacraments have been celebrated there, confessions, confirmations, and masses as far as I know, although the apparition doesn’t seem to mind, if indeed she is aware of them at all.

And by the way, just because we don’t understand the story or are offended by it, well, that doesn’t count for much, because there are plenty of offensive stories in the Bible which, if misunderstood, say a lot about the misunderstanders (John 6 is the first of many that come to mind).

Ryan,
I understand that satan seduces and tempts us into sin and all of this is permitted by God, but I also know that satan runs away from Mary.  He is afraid of Mary,the Mother of God because She is the one who crushes his head. One simple look and he flies out! 

I am talking about what is in the message that is supposed to be from Mary.  Mary knows very well that satan has always wanted to ruin God’s plan.  Mary knows that satan’s only wish is to ruin her plans ,too.
But, Mary knows that satan can not ruin her plans because her plans are always coming from God’s will. 

So, the question I have is if this message is said to have come from Mary the mother of God, why would she mention something so obvious like the fact that satan has, is, and will keep wanting to ruin God’s plan, but at the same time, Mary knows perfectly well that satan will never succeed in what he wants, which is to ruin God’s plan?

  Then, why would the gospa even mention it in a message of this magnitude?  To inflict fear in the people who do not know that the fact is that satan will NEVER succeed in his war against God?  That wanting and doing are very different things?
He can always want but he can never succeed! 

In the message it did not say; satan wants to inflic sin in you or that satan is ready to tempt you, etc.  it said :“satan wants to ruin my plans”.  See, satan when he could not fight the Woman, Mary, he went on and made war against her children…us.  So, I understand that he is able to inflict sin in the world and in us if we let him.  But, he can not
inflict sin nor attack the Woman, Mary, because She is mighty than he is.
She already crushed his head.  He can not go against the Woman, Mary.
And the message said that it was “HER PLANS” not humanities plans.

I hope that I have explained it so that you understand my point.
Peace,
Maria

@joe

I will give you credit at least you read my sh#t.

I do have a dump truck full of evidence that Caritas is a cult .. go to www.medjugorje.ws/en/articles/ and read it for your self. I will say most of the content are horrific stories of brain washing and people held against their will.  also Joe if you believe caritas s raking in “millions” then I have a bridge to sell you. It is just one of the many fabrications coming from caritas.

Medjugorje has miraculously avoided (so far) the stigma of “cult”. This is because “free will” is a big aspect to the movement.

I have come around finally to accept Marija’s visists - She goes there with love and not to judge ... that’s it.. Maybe something ultimately good will come of caritas but I have my doubts.

but I stand by what I said Satan (secular press) will attack Medjugorje by assigning caritas as the heart and soul of Medjugorje. It will be sad. I just hope joe you are not on that team

also I stand by what I say. It is time for Catholics to stand up and tell the Christian right to shut the hell up. Jesus is not a republican with blow dryed hair. Get Christianity out of politics.

@ Maria
Satan seduces those who do not call for Mary. Sadly in this world very (now more than ever) look to Mary for defense. You are right Satan runs from Mary, but fewer and fewer know of Mary;s protection.  This is her concern. She defeats Satan but only if she is invoked. medjugorje is a call to the world to look to Mary as defense against the evil one and a reminder the Mary points the way to her son Jesus

Ryan,
It is true, we can not judge Marija’s heart but her visits to Caritas is to be taken seriously ,especially by the commission, since it involves a cult gone bad. And a person who says she is having visions of Mary with the people of that cult gone bad needs to be investigated.

Mother Mary knows that her visions are proclaimed authentic when the visionaries are and do exemplary deeds and are not mixed up with things such as cults nor things gone bad.  It is not a good sign that one of Medj. seers is visiting a place gone bad and I think that she visits them every year. 

Isn’t this the same girl who had the problem with Tomislav Vlasic and Agnes Heuper regarding the mixed up group founded in Italy?

Peace,
Maria

@Ryan on Saturday, Aug 20, 2011 1:39 AM (EDT) Going back a bit to the tennis players, Ryan, you suggested to Deo that he “do the math”. Well I did a little math myself.

I looked up the score of the winning game, and to my surprise, Dodig won 1-6, 7-6, 7-6. Almost as if some sinister force were holding Nadal back to guarantee Dodig the win. Intriguing.

Then I noticed another interesting mathematical fact. The scheduled apparitions happen at 6:40 PM local time. According to the clock, that is; the queen of heaven, you know the one with the stars at her head and the moon at her feet, remarkably observes Summer Time in Europe and Daylight Saving Time in the US and Canada while she is on tour. The moon and the stars don’t, but she does. Well I wondered, why 6:40? I mean, it makes sense from a planning standpoint, you have time for preparatory items on the agenda like testimonies and such, but most of all you have time to get a rosary started. It ends up getting aborted by the entrance of the apparition, but at least you get it started. And then, after the apparition leaves, you can have a mass. This is an improvement over the earlier plan that had the apparition cutting off the Our Father just before you get to the part about delivering us from the Evil One. But I digress.

Anyhoo, on another occasion I was meditating on John 13, that unlucky chapter, about the Last Supper and Judas’ demonically-inspired betrayal, the greatest betrayal there ever was, or ever will be, in human history. It says the devil entered Judas’ heart right after dinner. It was the Friday evening of Passover, early spring, shortly after sunset. That would have been right about 6:40 PM. And then, after Judas left, Jesus said the first mass.

Then I realized that in decimal time, 6:40 is six and two thirds hours, or 6.666… At that point I stopped doing the math, because I didn’t want to discover anything else.

Anyway, in the words of Festus, perhaps my great learning is driving me mad.

Joe, that is interesting.
Peace
maria

Ryan,
I think that we are both talking different things.  I agree with you that Mary is our defense against evil and that this is her role ever since the promise of God in the garden of Eden.  However, if she is the defense why would she be saying that satan wants to destroy her plan?  Isn’t this
contradicting?  Isn’t that saying that she is not powerful against satan destroying her plan?  What is her plan anyways and her intentions?
That people come to Jesus?  But, Jesus is the Head of the Catholic Church and HE is truly present Body Soul and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar, the Eucharist and as far as I have read about things the gospa has said, for example that it does not suffice to be Catholic to be saved.  This for me is a message that does not point to Jesus Who is
in the heart of His Church, the Catholic Church.  We must be sacramentally graced in order to eat and drink Jesus’s Flesh and Blood.
If the gospa does not direct EVERYONE to the Blessed Sacrament through the entering of the Catholic Church then what Jesus is she pointing people to? 

It is all confusing to me.
Peace
maria

Joe I agree with Maria, that is interesting.

@Maria, your comment “...If the gospa does not direct EVERYONE to the Blessed Sacrament through the entering of the Catholic Church then what Jesus is she pointing people to?”

I don’t think Ryan can answer that one, although he states that millions have converted because of Medj. Converted to what?  This is the same logic that those who believe Russia has been converted say. They haven’t converted to the Catholic church, just converted from communism to something else, like a more democratic existence. So where is the impetus to enter the RCC? Fatima asked that we pray for the conversion of sinners, for many go to hell because no one prays for them. But Medj. says that the world doesn’t need to be catholic to be saved. So much for real ecumenism here. And it is claimed by pro medj. enthusiasts that medj. is a continuation of Fatima? In what sense? That there are 10 secrets? Medj. is famous for it’s claim of “the warning and the miracle” like Garabandal but Fatima does not. Garabandal has not been approved either.  So what is the overall message of Medj.? Watch for a new world wide church that encompasses all religions with no cross , where everyone is happy with where they stand in relation to God. Fatima has not even hinted to this. So why is Medj. a Fatima fulfillment?

Patrick, you nailed it rignt on the head!

@patrick

I have to strongly disagree with you about Russia and it’s “conversion as does the Catholic Church and here again is where you are showing your hand.

Whether you are SSPX, sedavacantist, ultra traditionalist or what ever you are you clearly despise Vatican II which by the way is the CATHOLIC church.

The Catholic church has clearly said that Russia’s conversion was NOT necessarily to Catholicism. More importantly Fatima, Sr Lucia NEVER said anything about conversion to the Catholic church - Conversion to the Immaculate heart was what she called for .. Why do Fatimists insist that Our Lady called for a conversion to Catholicsim? She wants us to convert to her heart and for me the best way to do that is to follow the Catholic church’s spiritual guidance. 

I will tip my hand now.. The russian orthodox church is devoted to the blessed mother even more than the Catholic Church particularly here in the states. Maybe i will burn in hell but i have no problems with the Russia orthodox church - do I wish the scism would end - sure. Do I think russian orthodox faithful are on a road to perdition? - no

So if the Russian Orthodox are more devoted to Mary than the Catholic Church is, the conversion of Russia to the immaculate heart would be more of a slight shift in emphasis. Wow. Medjugorje is not the continuation of Fatima, it’s the suppression of Fatima.

Well for one thing, Our Lady asked the pope and all the bishops to consecrate Russia. She didn’t ask the orthodox, the protestants , the jehovah witnesses,etc. She asked the RCC to do so. So yes, she asked for the consecration so that Russia may recognize the RCC’s role in salvation.  She asked for the consecration so that Her IHM would triumph. I haven’t seen the catholic church claim the IMH triumph anywhere. Where on earth does it state “The Catholic church has clearly said that Russia’s conversion was NOT necessarily to Catholicism”?
>>>@Ryan “Why do Fatimists insist that Our Lady called for a conversion to Catholicsim?” You did tip your hand. Are you not convinced the RCC is the true church? So 2000 years of doctrine down the tubes because medj. says so? Very uncatholic indeed! Your “spirit of vatican ii” is alive and well in medj.

Oh BTW Ryan, you still haven’t answered Maria’s comment: “...If the gospa does not direct EVERYONE to the Blessed Sacrament through the entering of the Catholic Church then what is she pointing people to?”
I’ll tell you what Ryan. With the passing of vat.ii and how it tried to be ecumenical with the world, and how the world thumbed their noses at the church, what transpired is not only an incredible lack of conversions to the RCC but a watered down version of catholic teaching to her own and MILLIONS of catholics leaving to enter mostly protestant sects of every flavor.  Now, enter medj. with it’s own version of false ecumenism , a stepping stone to a new world church, and you have a new christless church pandering to all religions with no truths but a hatred towards the real catholic truths of 2000 years.

@patrick
. Thus the phrase “Russia will be converted” can imply conversion from Russian Orthodoxy to Catholicism. Yet, another possibility is that it means a conversion of the heart, which conforms to the theological commentary written by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger on the Fatima secret.[11]
..Your Pope has spoken on the conversion of Russia.

@Deo, Joe, Patrick

What do you guys think we’re seeing here?  Is it liberation theology, prosperity theology, polytheistic reconstructionism or a new synthesis of all of the above?  I can identify whatever this is as very wrong, but it seems to defy definition?  A definition by the new commission, in my opinion, would be the greatest fruit of all regarding Medj.

Ryan YOU ARE WRONG! Vatican II is NOT the Catholic Church.
Second, the Schismatic Orthodox Church don’t even believe in the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
Your stupidity is getting to me.
Our Lady of Fatima call for conversion of Russia was not only for Russia to abandoned their Schism, but to stop communism to bring about the worst error of ATHEISM.

@dismas

If i took your sentence above and replaceed “medjugorje” with “Vatican II” 
it would pretty much read the same to you. 

Dismas you don’t have a problem with Medjugoje as much as you do with the Catholic Church.

Would not surprise to see a “Michael Voris for Pope” bumper sticker on your car.

Also you really know very little about medjugorje and the wonderfully devout catholics who go to confession, adoration and practice the faith from the heart. 

everything you write is cliche ridden drivel ...“prosperity theology?” . I have never met any of the people you describe and i am sure you have not to either.. you just make stuff up

@Deoacveritati

Your Pope has spoken - Fatima did not call for the conversion of Russians to the Catholic Church but to Our Lady’ heart. When are you idiots going to accept that reality (i use the word idiot because I have had it with your infantile name calling)

@Deo, Joe, Patrick

What do you guys think we’re seeing here?  Is it liberation theology, prosperity theology, polytheistic reconstructionism or a new synthesis of all of the above?  I can identify whatever this is as very wrong, but it seems to defy definition?  A definition by the new commission, in my opinion, would be the greatest fruit of all regarding Medj.

Well allow me to call you one more name, I think you are a Protestant who converted to Catholicism, and who sadly was instructed into the teaching of the Catholic Faith by a poorly trained RCIA instructor who probably didn’t know anything about faith either.
That is why your knowledge about Church’s tradition and history is so shallow it makes me want to vomit!
I believe you need to really ask yourself in you heart of hearts how sincerely Catholic you are, and after go to confession and admit that you still hold on to your past errors.
Only then you will have sufficient grace to admit that you are wrong about your understanding of Church dogma and about Medjugorje.

Well Ryan[I am reposting so you get the message] allow me to call you one more name, I think you are a Protestant who converted to Catholicism, and who sadly was instructed into the teaching of the Catholic Faith by a poorly trained RCIA instructor who probably didn’t know anything about faith either.
That is why your knowledge about Church’s tradition and history is so shallow it makes me want to vomit!
I believe you need to really ask yourself in you heart of hearts how sincerely Catholic you are, and after go to confession and admit that you still hold on to your past errors.
Only then you will have sufficient grace to admit that you are wrong about your understanding of Church dogma and about Medjugorje.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/medjugorje-revealed/#ixzz1WFY6ODPO

@Deoacveritati

I was baptised catholic and graduated from a catholic high school(was not much of a catholic back in the day)

What you don;t see Deoacveritati is the utter failure of your whole mindset your worldview. You expect all catholics to understand even the most obscure traditionalist rule.

Listen to me carefully. Our Lady appears to peasant uneducated children precisely to circumvent “experts” like you . She does not appear to Bishops and authorities. Did you ever wonder for a second why this is.  Your incessant charge that we are all in “error” is getting to be down right demonic. You like Satan chase people from the Church because of your ridicule.

The message of the catholic Church is the message of Jesus christ and it is simple - Love God, Love your neighbor. The sacraments of our faith are there to help us stay true. The sacraments are not meant to be a check list of weekly duties.

This is something you will never understand

Ok,you are Catholic, but you still fail to understand that many Catholics for the past 40 years have practice the easy type of Catholicism.
As you have pointed out let’s compared the faith of the peasant uneducated children of past centuries who had the previledge of seen Our Lord and Our Blessed Mother, not including Medjugorje, and you will see that they knew more about faith and being obedient to the Church and their Bishops and priests than many Catholics today.
Something has gone wrong very wrong.

@Deoacveritati

The seer at green bay ( the new approved apparition ) told the Bishop that he would be responsible for lost souls if he shut her down (he had initially banned her from the church) I scared him and he invited her back.
so you are right the seers know alot about faith.

Deoacveritati, you are extemely misguided when it come to the Medjugorje seers and you think medjugorje is an “easy type of catholicism”

If you ever heard the seers speak you would immediately respect their devotion to the Church… Also Medjugorje is very difficult to “practice” as I said before.  Medjugorje calls for fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays.  I challenge you to fast twice a week (on bread and water) and then say it is ‘easy”
also Medjugorje is on “our side” they are mostly devout catholics and you would be surprised at the respect they have for the church and its priests.

Posted by Dismas on Saturday, Aug 27, 2011 12:46 PM (EDT):@Deo, Joe, Patrick

>>>What do you guys think we’re seeing here?  Is it liberation theology, prosperity theology, polytheistic reconstructionism or a new synthesis of all of the above?  I can identify whatever this is as very wrong, but it seems to defy definition?  A definition by the new commission, in my opinion, would be the greatest fruit of all regarding Medj.

I read something called syncretism years ago that would flourish in the future. It’s a new age idea and I think this is a cog in the wheel of what Pope Pius X was warning the church 100 years ago.  Here’s one I found:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/newage/syncret.txt
...The syncretistic tendency can be defined as the attempt to appropriate
ideas and practices from a variety of spiritual traditions without any
attempt to discriminate their truth or value on the basis of Catholic
faith. One way in which the equality and compatibility of various
religions is justified is by subsuming their various dimensions under
generic categories. So, the writings of different religions are all put on
the same level by being labeled “sacred.” Similarly, different deities are
subsumed under the general category of the Transcendent, and various
rituals are all considered to serve the same function of contacting and
establishing unity with the Transcendent.

Ryan,
You wrote: “Your Pope has spoken…‘Fatima did not call for the conversion of Russians to the Catholic Church but to our Lady’s heart..”

Even if this was said by the pope, I think that yes, we understand that mary’s Heart is always pointing to Her Son and thus it is only understandable that first people would be called to her maternal Heart and then She would instill in them the love for the Church the Catholic Church where Her Son is the Head and founder. Also, that in order to love the Church, they must first love Mary.  She is the one to bring her children under one roof, inside the New Noah’s Ark of salvation,

Our Lady is Catholic.  If people are to convert through Mary’s Immaculate Heart, surely they are being asked to join Her, in Her Home, the Home where Her children, brothers and sisters in Christ through Baptism ,join in with her, to offer to the most High, and Father of all, the Everlasting Sacrifice of Her SON,Son of the MOst HIgh, our Paschal Lamb Jesus Christ, as payment for our debt, for ous sins, and for our salvation. 

Mary is the very first Catholic member of the Church.  She is our model
to follow.  She will always bring her children towards the CHurch.

Peace,
Maria

@Dismas on Saturday, Aug 27, 2011 11:56 AM (EDT) A new synthesis. In 1917, “Russia will be converted” could only have meant one thing; now Ryan is coming along a century later and reinterpreting the prophecy in classic modernist fashion. When I first read Vatican II, I thought to myself, “Why are they restating all this in a nearly ambiguous way?” Later I read about the goings-on behind the scenes and it all made sense. I remembered the Syllabus of Errors, a document as prophetic as it is retrospective, suddenly saw the big picture, and felt queasy about having been born during this period of history. I knew it was going to be a rough century for the Church, but not because of external factors. And then in the 1980s Medjugorje comes along with the optimum combination of popular piety and vapid modernism to lure people to the edge of the seacliff without realizing the danger of where they stand. (And the fact Ryan went to a Catholic school explains his ignorance of Catholic faith and culture.)

@Deo -

I think you err in your assent to Ryan’s assertion that he is Catholic, how do you arrive at this conclusion?  Based on Ryan’s assertions this conclusion is premature and illogical. I also see that Ryan has reverted back to the use of straw man arguments with references to the Christian right, SSPX, sedavacantism, ultra traditionalist, Vatican II, Michael Voris, Green Bay, etc.  These references are a trap used to misdirect and incite. 

Futhermore, Ryan’s assertion that the children of Fatima were uneducated is false.  Although it is true the children were illiterate their parents did a very good job passing along the faith to them.  At the children’s very young age they were better catechized through oral tradition than most adult Catholics today.  Compared to Ryan, they were theological geniuses.  The biographies done at the time of the investigation of Fatima makes this point very clear.

Why don’t we get back to focusing on this question that threw Ryan into such a rage in the first place:  What’s going on here, liberation theology, prosperity theology, polytheistic reconstructionism or a new synthesis of all of the above?

Actually, I think it may have been this comment regarding the latest commission and the fruit of new insight into heresies that could have been the source of Ryan’s rage:

“A definition by the new commission, in my opinion, would be the greatest fruit of all regarding Medj.”

Yes, it’s happening Ryan, I recommend you get on the bus.

@dismas

What is going on here is that medjugorje is place where you see people practice the catholic faith with love, piety and devotion and along the way expressing great respect for the church.

It is amazing to me that you could look at a photograph from medjugorje of thousands of people in prayer, hundreds of people lining up for confession and attending adoration, who are doing everything in their heart to love the Catholic faith and you have the stupendous righteousness and gall to demean these CATHOLICS as unworthy.  I have a recommendation dismas. I respect your love of the Church, I don’t question your faith, but why don’t you find like minded people and be thankful and leave it at that.

You are a classic practitioner of the Viet Nam war strategy i.e. “We needed to destroy the village in order to save it” 

You need to end your persecutions of good people.

Ryan, here is something useful for you to learn read:
PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS (“Feeding the Lord’s Flock”)

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X

ON THE DOCTRINES
OF THE MODERNISTS

It will do you good.

@deo

he was a great man ..loved the blessed mary . A true believer in “To Christ through Mary

Pius X’s papacy featured vigorous condemnation of what he termed ‘modernists’ and ‘relativists’ who endangered the Catholic faith (see for example his Oath Against Modernism). This is perhaps the most controversial aspect of his papacy.
Modernism and relativism, in terms of their presence in the Church, were theological trends that tried to assimilate modern philosophers like Kant as well as rationalism into Catholic theology. Modernists justified this change with the idea that beliefs of the Church have evolved (as opposed to a development of doctrine) throughout its history and all evolution should subject itself in conformity to modern man. Anti-modernists viewed these notions as contrary to the dogmas and traditions of the Catholic Church because it renders all dogma changeable which would contradict their very nature. As a result all Christian beliefs would be thrown into doubt because they are subject to change and evolution. The most brutal results of Modernism would therefore be a slippery slope into deism, agnosticism, and/or atheism.

I can’t disagree with what he says but the arguments get to esoteric for me ..It is really for the Clergy and the Vatican and Curia to sort that out.  Pope Benedict XVI had something to say

Asked in 2003, whether the almost 100-year-old Catechism of Saint Pius X was still valid, Cardinal Ratzinger said: “The faith as such is always the same. Hence the Catechism of Saint Pius X always preserves its value. Whereas ways of transmitting the contents of the faith can change instead. And hence one may wonder whether the Catechism of Saint Pius X can in that sense still be considered valid today.”[19]

My major problem with modernists is that they dismiss the supernatural and turn away from mysticism.  Is Peric a Modernist..He dismisses the supernatural at fatima and lourdes

@Ryan,

A false appeal to pity and an adhominem attack.  What’s your point Ryan, what you describe takes place in my local parish Church.  Your house is built on sand.  Your ship adrift in a sea of illogic.

The New Testament provides only a few instances where we hear Mary speak.  The first time is when she humbly accepted the news from the Angel Gabriel that she was chosen to be the mother of the “Son of the Most High” (Luke 1:32).  The second instance is when Mary visited her cousin Elizabeth who asked, “But who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43).  Here is the humble Elizabeth, aready gifted with the conception of John the Baptist, asking Mary, her younger relative how she, Elizabeth, merited a visit from the Mother of God.  I would aks Marija, Ivan and all the other arrogant and far from humble Medjugorje hoax perpetrators, “Who are you that the Mother of our Lord should come to you?”  Shame on all of you!

@Ryan, you’re still are ignoring Maria’s comment…”“...If the gospa does not direct EVERYONE to the Blessed Sacrament through the entering of the Catholic Church then what is she pointing people to?” Come on Ryan, let’s see how you can reinterpret church teaching on this? Maria has been very kind and patient with you. Why are you snubbing her? Didn’t Christ say that if you did not eat His flesh and drink His blood , you have no life in you?  To whom was He referring?

@patrick ..been dealing with a hurricane

I don’t know how to answer Maria’s question.. all i know is what our Church and our Pope’s say about ecumenism.

I think we need to start by asking Maria if she disagrees with the Holy See

Don’t worry Ryan I was also dealing with Irene. 
I do not expect an answer right away but if you think that the issue is related to ecumenism, I think not.

As far as I know, the Catholic Church in order to invite other faiths over to learn the Truth found in It, started a dialogue with them now called ecumenism. 

Since, the Catholic Chuch is the safe keeper of the full Truth of Jesus’s teachings, it began this dialogue by offering each of the other faiths to share what it is found in those faiths that is part of the Truth taught by Christ with each other most probably with the hope that these other faiths would come to the conclusion after having seen and heard.

Ecumenism is a dialogue not a compromise.  The Catholic Church is not compromising to bend on the Truths already found in Her Bossom in order to comform to other faiths and live side by side.  No.

The dialogue is the conversation between two or more parties where each other listen to each other.  It is in no way an acceptance of each other beliefs but a learning of each other beliefs and a sharing on the thngs found to be same in each other’s beliefs that are part of the Truth in Christ.

Some people might be confused in equating ecumenism with something like a political correctness stance for example.  Ecumenism is not to say that all involved in the dialogue are equal or the same, no, but it is a dialogue to learn from each other and most probably to find where one finds most if not all of the Truths that are commonly shared and even more than those that are shared.

In the end, we know that the full Truth is only found in the Catholic Church so,our hope and the Church’s hope is that all others will be able, by the gift of the Holy Spirit through wisdomn discernment and knowledge to figure out or find out either during or after these dialogues are over that
the Catholic Church is the keeper of the full Truth.

Mary the Mother of the Church would only gear people to the safety of
the Church and She will do these to all people of all faiths,

This is why Mary in her approved apparitions always points people or invites them
to the Catholic Church.

I can not imagine the Mother of God, Mary not leading her children to the
Church, which was founded by Jesus through His Sacrifice, Passion, Death and Ressurection. 

peace,
Maria

@maria

What do say about the Russian Orthodox Church? They love Our Lady. All the icons etc. I find it hard to believe the devout of that faith will be denied a place after death by Our Lady. and I believe this is what the Holy See says as well.(it gets tricky - the Pope says if by no fault of their own they do not come to the Catholic Church but love god that salvation will not be denied or something like that.)

Ryan,
I think that ecumenism between the Russian Orthodox and the Catholic CHurch is going well.  I pray that one day, soon, they will be one.

As far as I understand what it says in the Cathecism of The Catholic Church is that those who at no fault of their own are not found in the bossom of the Catholic Church at the time of their deaths the Church believes God will judge them according to their deeds as long as those deeds are Christ like or that they conform with what Christ taught us.

But, it is difficult to point out who is truly at no fault of not coming in to the fullnes of the Truth or into the Catholic Church when the Gospel and Its teachings have been preached througout the world to most people by the Catholic Church.  Who does not know that the Catholic Church is the only One founded by Christ? Who does not know that the
Catholic Church has been assuring and claiming that It posseses the fullness of the Truth of Christ? 

Look what happened during Noa’s time…everyone, except his family, was critical or skeptical of what Noah was saying.  Was that their fault?
Did Noah told everyone? What about if some people did not know about the deluge and they were not told by Noah that God was about to punish them with this deluge and that all those not inside the ark were going to
perish.  Perhaps this did not happen and everyone knew before hand about the deluge about to come but they did not believe or they did not care, or they were too busy living life, or they were procrastinators and they wanted to wait.

More or less this is how I understand salvation through the Church is for us.  And those who do not hear the Good News and die in state of grace, are like those who
did not hear of the deluge , so at no fault of their own they might be saved.

Mary is our guide and She guides us to the new Noah’s ark to be safe, that is to the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Maria

In re to Fatima, Russia and yes Assisi;
http://catholicintl.com/index.php/component/content/article/54-pastoral/268-another-failed-attempt-to-defend-assisi-and-other-scandalous-events-in-the-pontificate-of-john-paul-ii-

...“With the above in view, let’s look at Assisi in perspective. The first Assisi was in 1986,
two years after John Paul II did a “consecration” in 1984. Many claim that the 1984
consecration fulfilled the Fatima request to consecrate Russia. Let’s say for the sake of
argument that it did. Then peace should have reigned, since Russia would have been
neutralized of its reign of terror around the world by heaven itself. But such wasn’t that
case. In fact, John Paul II’s own biographer, Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, who wrote A
Life with Karol, says that there was a political impetus for Assisi, particularly the cold
war with Russia and the communist block; and that because of it and further trouble
spots (e.g., the Balkans and the Persian Gulf), John Paul II was searching for a way to
attain peace in the world. According to Dzisisz, an idea came to him by a sudden
inspiration – calling all the world’s religions together to pray for peace.
But wait a minute. If John Paul II did a legitimate consecration in 1984 that fulfilled the
Fatima vision, then where was the peace promised from such a consecration, and why
was John Paul II so worried about not seeing any peace in the world? Keep in mind that
his Assisi gathering was just two years after his alleged Fatima consecration, which also
means that the planning of Assisi must have occurred earlier than 1986, for large events
like Assisi are not put together overnight. So within a year or so after his 1984
consecration, John Paul II is already fretting about not seeing world peace. Did heaven
miss its call? So he organizes Assisi to take care of the problem. But why? Why didn’t he
give ample time for his 1984 consecration to work? Didn’t he trust Our Lady and her
Son to give what they promised if, indeed, a valid consecration was performed in 1984?
After all, hadn’t we been waiting for a valid consecration of the Fatima vision since 1929
when it was first issued, while we watched pope after pope fail to fulfill it? If the Fatima
consecration were finally fulfilled in 1984 wouldn’t we be expecting heaven to just
shower us with peace and prosperity after 50 years of hell on earth?
Be that as it may, why did John Paul II call all the pagan nations to pray to their false
gods in 1986 when at his 1984 consecration he was told by heaven to call all the bishops
of the world together to pray? [not to mention the fact that he never did call the bishops
to the 1984 consecration].”

In other words, Assisi was a Satanic mockery, an imitation of the requests of our Lady of Fatima.  Instead of uniting all the Bishops of the world and following the directives of our Lady, he instead invited members of the numerous false religions of the world together to pray for “peace.”  As a biblical side note, there was not one false prophet in the Old Testament that did not use the message of “PEACE” to insinuate their falsehoods. (Sound like Medj.?)  The syncretism of Assisi is a diametrical and mutually exclusive contradiction to the message of Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima. Medj. is a continuation of Fatima? Hardly, it’s a road to syncretism. So much for the post vatican ii new “springtime” that was often heard in these circles. You see, JPII was expecting a relatively quick peace to occur from this Fatima “consecration” too. It didn’t arrive. Perhaps he changed his mind and was banking on a “30 year” program , just as the Medj. group likes to think - that it’s a work in progress.

@maria

I agree with you.. The greatness of the catholic church is that it provides the surest path to salvation and the greatest defense against evil

Hi everyone. Schonborn is in the news again: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2090629,00.html

From the article:

“The 300-plus supporters of the so-called Priests’ Initiative have had enough of what they call the church’s “delaying” tactics, and they are advocating pushing ahead with policies that openly defy current practices. These include letting nonordained people lead religious services and deliver sermons; making communion available to divorced people who have remarried; allowing women to become priests and to take on important positions in the hierarchy; and letting priests carry out pastoral functions even if, in defiance of church rules, they have a wife and family.”

I say, EXCOMMUNICATE ALL 300 OF THESE REBELS NOW!!!

I pray for Cardinal Shonborn that all those troubles are resolved.
It is sad to hear that these things are happening there when in the other hand the good Cardinal is supporting the alleged phenomena of Medj. and inviting seers into his parishes to speak. 

I also wonder if these priest are part of those who are said to have found their call at or due to Medjugorje.

Peace,
Maria

This video illustrates quite nicely the message I hear, under the guise of Catholicism from Stephen Ryan, ministryvalues and other secular pro-Medj apparition promoters.  The message of peace they promote is not too different from the message of peace from this false prophet and wolf in sheep’s clothing, anyone else see any similarities:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg

... “In 1962, the Vatican and the schismatic Russian Church came to an agreement. According to its terms, the Russian “Orthodox Church” agreed to send observers to Vatican II, under the condition that no condemnation whatsoever of Communism should be made there.1
    And why were the consequences of such a pact so far-reaching and important? Because in the 20th Century a principal enemy of the Catholic Church was Communism. As such, until Vatican II, it had been condemned numerous times by the Magisterium. Moreover, in the early ’60s, a new condemnation would have been quite damaging, since Communism was passing through a serious crisis, both internally and externally. On one hand, it was losing credibility inside the USSR since the people were becoming increasingly discontent with the horrendous administrative results of 45 years of Communist demagogy. On the other hand, outside the USSR, Communism had not been able to persuade the workers and poor of free countries to take up its banner. In fact, up until that time, it had never won a free election. Therefore, the leaders of international Communism decided that it was time to begin to change the appearances of the regime in order to retain the power they had and to experiment with new methods of conquest. So in the ’60s, President Nikita Khrushchev suddenly began to smile and talk about dialogue.2 This would have been a particularly inopportune moment for the communist movement if the Pope or the Council issued a formal condemnation, which could have either seriously damaged or possibly even destroyed the Communist regime.
...Further on, Malachi Martin “relates” that this Vatican-Moscow pact of 1962 was “merely a renewal of an earlier agreement between the Holy See and Moscow” on the occasion of conversations that took place in 1942 in the pontificate of Pius XII. He writes,

    “It was in that year that Vatican Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, who himself later succeeded to the Papacy as Paul VI, talked directly with Joseph Stalin’s representative. Those talks were aimed at dimming Pius XII’s constant fulminations against the Soviet dictator and Marxism. Stato himself had been privy to those talks. He had also been privy to the conversations between Montini and the Italian Communist Party leader, Palmiro Togliatti, in 1944 ... Stato offered to supply reports from the Allied Office of Strategic Services about the matter, beginning, as he recalled, with OSS Report JR-1022 of August 28, 1944.“8

    Such, then, are the official documents as well as the extra-official information about the Pact of Metz, which explains the incredible omission at the Ecumenical Second Vatican Council.

http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr73/cr73pg32.asp

It would appear that communism was to be included in the future council’s decisions of ecumenism et al back in the 40’s.  Communism, ( the church’s greatest enemy) was never condemned during the council ( and why not?) and yet how often have we heard about the “springtime” of the church. IF this is all true and the church had a chance to put the final nail in communism and didn’t, what does this tell anyone? Not only did Rome have a chance at defeating communism but even went the whole 9 yards and gave communism a new breath,  through the church herself.  It also suggests that communism has infiltrated just about every facet of the church. Sr. Lucy called it a “diabolical disorientation”.  That was and still is the council and it’s after effects she was talking about. Medj. is a product of this council and ecumenism is the main engine driving it. It is suicide to continue along this false path of ecumenism.

@Patrick,

Are we now to assume you’re an advocate of the schismatic, disobedient and scandalous Fatima Network created by the long disgraced Fr. Nicholas Gruner who hasn’t been in union with the Catholic Church since the mid ‘70s?  Please explain your agenda for referencing this material.

Show me where Fr. Gruner is schismatic. Am I to assume too that you consider SSPX schismatic? My referring to this Fatimacrusader article had to do with the connection to Russia and vatican ii. If you don’t like the material in the article, please show me another route that would reference this connection. Do you not believe what this article implied? Then please don’t do what Ryan was trying to do and that was to sidetrack the issue by attacking someone you don’t like.

Dismas, I don’t think Patrick is all wrong about his information, he is as frustrated as some of are us in regards to the uncontrol Ecumenism plaguing the Church.

I for one respect Malachi Martin exegesis on the “crisis” facing the Catholic Church.

Why I respect Malachi Martin??
Well I enjoy his books and I have heard his interviews, and like I said, I share his assestment on the problems of the Church today.
Father Martin was a very bright man, spoke 11 languages and held various masters degrees in Philosophy and Theology, plus got doctorates in Semitic languages, archeology and Oriental history etc.
I say he was somebody, but what I especially respect of Father Malachi Martin is that even though he had been priveleged enough to have read the Third Secret of Fatima he never tried to make money of it.
I mean he could have secretly sold the secret for an unimaginable sume of money, if you follow what I mean, the only ones keeping the secret to themselves was the Vatican.
Our Lady Fatima said the secret must be revealed by 1960 that didn’t happen.
I don’t think Heaven would have been too upset with Malachi Martin for revealing the Third Secret of Fatima[I don’t mean to get to controversial here, but many still think the secret WAS NOT revealed in its entirety]well, perhaps Heaven might have been a little upset on the selling of it but not for revealing it.
Anyhow to get to the point is that Father Martin didn’t revealed the Third Secret, he was obedient and kept his promise and to me that speaks highly of him.

If anyone want to hear Father Malachi Martin interviews on Youtube go to
Malachi Martin Audio most of his interviews are there.

I found an article in Michael Brown’s website where the intervention of the commissions even of the Bishop of Mostar regarding the results of investigations and its findings are been seen as if they were something prophetic that the alleged apparition said in some of the messages regarding Satan ruining the plan.  Thus equating the findings of the investigations of the commissions as if it was something done by Satan to ruin the alleged apparitions plan.

The other issue found in the same article” On Chuch crises and apparitions” is the incinuation that the church/vatican has some hidden crisis/agenda and because of that the result from the commission investigating Medj. could give a false finding.  I see this as already putting people on alert on if there is a false ruling on Medj. so that they won’t accept it because the Church could be falling from within or it has some kind of crisis that it would not be a fair result.

Medj. defenders are trying all things possible so that their belief on the authenticity is defended even against the Churh.

Pray for all those who lead with blind eyes others who are following with blind eyes as well.
Peace,
Maria

Here’s a start:

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/fr_gruner_old.htm

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/FATHER NICHOLAS GRUNER.html

@Deo -

Fr. Malachi Martin is not at issue here.  Nicholas Gruner and excerpts from an article published by his Fatima Network, however, is.

Dismas, I agree with you, but Father Malachi Martin,if I am not mistaken spoke of some agreement between John XXIII and USSR.
For what I understand John XXIII wanted the Schimatic Orthodox observers to come to the Vatican for the Council but in exchange there would NOT BE a condemnation of Communism by the Council.

Patrick, this has nothing to do with me ‘attacking someone I don’t like,’ it has everything to do with defending truth.

Deo, The agreement between John XXIII, the USSR’s schizmatic Orthodox Church and VCII is beyond my scope.  I can however object to information being introduced from by a disgraced organization under control of a disgraced personality that is not recognized by the Holy See and who mix lies with a little bit of truth to arrive at certain conclusions in order to promote their agendas.

@Maria

Although the bunk espoused on ministryvalues and Fatima Network are a concern, anyone who paid attention to Jesus speaking to us in today’s Gospel at Mass shouldn’t have anything to worry about:

If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.  Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mt 18:17-18

The reason that people like Fr. Gruner et al write about Fatima, Russia and connection between them is that you won’t find much info from sources currently holding the neo catholic view.  The Wanderer and The Register are considered holding the official vatican view of Russia being consecrated. They would never go beyond the official view, in anything. Such a move would denote them disobedient.  So, if someone else , like a Gruner or Malachi Martin espouse such alternative views and are reasonable to ponder , why not?  He is pushing the true Fatima message and there are many in the church who want him silenced. Did you believe in Fr. Fox’s version? Do you believe that Russia has been consecrated? If you do, then you are in agreement with the official version from the vatican. So, did you find out if Fr. Gruner was schismatic Dismas?
Dismas, in that article I posted, was there anything you disagreed with or are you just refusing to believe in anything that Fr. Gruner states? Tell me what lies you are referring to that he mixes?

@Patrick -

It’s quite easy, I don’t understand your confusion.  Bl. JPII performed the Consecration in 1984, Bl. Sr. Lucia confirmed it’s acceptance as well as the CDF under Cardinal Bertone and the then Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVI.  Roma locuta est, causa finita est. 

Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Mt 18:18

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/06/27/fatima-conspiracy-theories-are-damaging-the-church/

http://www.catholicrevelations.org/PR/controversy of the third secret of fatima.htm

I stopped reading at this line:

“As of June 2000, Vatican officials asserted”

Anathema.

It is impossible that the consecration took place. Even Lucy stated that most bishops do not put any importance on Fatima. If they do not believe in Fatima and a lot of bishops do not obey the pope, then no consecration could have possibly taken place. It doesn’t take advanced degrees to figure out that Russia has not converted to the catholic faith.
Maybe someone else will take notice of the previous sites I’ve posted. They are most enlightening…

Dismas,
Yes, we are also to ,with love, direct our brothers/sisters that are on the wrong path.

If one follows Micheal Brown’s train of thought, according to his article on s pi rit dai ly, that when the message mentions Satan ruining or stopping the phenomena’s plan that someway or another it had to correlate with a commissio results in the past.

Last month’s message mentioned Satan wanting to ruin the gospa of Medj.‘s plan.
Well, what is going on today?  The Vatican’s commission is investigating
the phenomena.  (?)

peace,
Maria

... Russian Communism’s plan to infiltrate the Church, about the same time that Padre Pio had a revelation that Masonry was going to penetrate the Church, Lenin (the founder of Russian communism) said that he would infiltrate the Church, and take control of the Vatican. Remember St. Pio would also say during the reign of Paul VI that “satan had entered even the shoes of the pope!” In the 1930s, ex-Communist Douglas Hyde, revealed that Communist leadership had a worldwide directive to infiltrate the Catholic Church, just as the Masons had planned in the Alta Vendita. In the 1950s, ex-Communist Bella Dodd testified that that Communism had put 1100 men into the priesthood by the 1930s to destroy the Church from within, and that they were in the highest places in the Church by the time of Vatican II, by 1960.

Like the Alta Vendita, Dodd said the Communist mission was not to destroy institution of the Church, but the faith of the people, by opening up the Church to the religions of the world to form a single, ecumenical, pseudo-religion.

Our Lady’s warnings that Russia would spread her errors even into the heart of the Church is confirmed by another historical fact: in 1962 the Vatican signed an agreement with the schismatic Russian Orthodox sect (known as the Vatican-Moscow agreement or “Metz Pact”) in which the Vatican agreed not to condemn Soviet communism or Russia at Vatican II in exchange for Pope John’s wish that two Russian orthodox observers attend his council. And so, in exchange for the presence at an ecumenical council of the Catholic Church of two heretics who rejected the Catholic Church, the Vatican agreed not to uphold the teaching of the Catholic Church, that communism is the greatest institutionalized form of evil that has ever existed, which has taken the lives of untold millions of Catholics, and which is the principal material chastisement warned of in Third Secret.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/feature-articles/Presentation - Fatima Rome 2011 - transcript.pdf

Patrick,

Most certainly this is fascinating and engaging reading.  However, as hard as mere mortals try, God brings good out of the evil agendas of his creatures.  God’s plan cannot be thwarted, His Church cannot be destroyed, Jesus promised.  Relax, if you are faithful to God’s plan and the precepts of His Church, what do you possibly have to fear? 

[18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. Mt 16:18-19

I concur with you. I have absolutely no doubts that God is in control of his Church. The best is awaiting us. But we will have to endure a time of penance soon and we should brace ourselves with lots of rosaries to keep the near future chastisement from arriving with full fury. But that shouldn’t keep us from knowing the truth about His Church. There are a lot of things that are not mentioned in the popular catholic press that should be. That was one of those points I was trying to convey.I would believe that the consecration did not take place, which would keep the average catholic who actually prays the rosary to not pray for that particular intention.
  I think ecumenism is not a solitary phenomenon solely tied to Medj. but had its roots prior to vatican ii. The council was hijacked for that particular purpose. It would have taken a lot of time to pull this off so it had to be devised prior to the council.

Patrick,

I would submit that Freemasonry, in one form or another, is more ancient than our Church.  Unlike you I believe the consecration has taken place, but that’s neither here nor there.  Being born in 1962 and raised in the post VC2 Church, I don’t think there’s much I can’t attest or witness to regarding the revelations of Fatima and Our Church.  No doubt it’s been a confusing and difficult journey.  However, I thank God for it, for the gift of his Church, for the merciful gift of faith He has grants me, and plead that I never be confounded.  Each and everyday, but particularly on Tuesdays I pray in one form or another for the enemies of Our Church.

Arise, O Lord, and let thine enemies be scattered, and let those that hate thee flee before Thy holy face.

God bless you always, I’ve enjoyed very much our exchange.

Speaking of communism, here’s a bit of a bombshell report from Andrea Tornielli regarding that fact that in the early days of Medjugorje the communists were vehemently opposed and exercised an aggressive campaign of disinformation and pressure against the visionaries and clergy there.

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/medjugorje-7819/

In fact “a series of documents put together ??by the men of the SDB (Secret Police), which were circulated among the Mostar, the Vatican and some European countries.”

I expect a lot of caterwauling in the anti-Medjugorje camp about this report ..

Happy Birthday to the Blessed Virgin!

Ryan, how are you observing the holiday?

Obedience to the Bishop unless he’s “overruled”. From a personal opinion, I don’t like how polarizing this issue is. I believe in Fatima and Lourdes, and people who don’t believe it just don’t. With Mejugorje is another story; there’s this fantism around it that never bears good fruits. At the end of the day, I don’t think the ruling should be a problem since people’s faiths should be base in Christ, not in an aparation

The other day I was meditating on one of the messages from Fatima about the consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and of reparation to her through the devotion of the first five Saturdays of the month.

I kind of focus more on the reparation that we are to do towards the injustices, perjuries, etc. done to her Immaculate Heart.

Then, I thought about how a false apparition which pretends to be her and thereby posing as her and misguiding her children away from her Immaculate Heart would be one of those injustices called for reparation from the Fatima messages.

If one truly loves our Mother Mary, one should think twice before doing something against her in case that we could end up hurting her Immaculate Heart.
This is why before asserting that an alleged apparition is truly Mary,
one should think seriuosly how that could change if it is not and how much could we be hurting our Mother Mary if we had geared our focus on
a deceiver rather than listening to her through her messages given to us through approved apparitions such as Fatima and Lourdes.

Before anything, we should think about Mary and the injustices done to her Immaculate Heart before we forget that and go on to the next alleged phenomena chasing miracles which seem to be something we are in need of but this makes it a vanity problem because we are searching for things for ourselves and forgetting that we are to help end the injustices done to her through reparation through the devotion of the first five Saturdays.

Peace,
Maria

The Medjugorje crowd don’t celebrate September 8, as the birthday of Our Lady. According to this excerpt from an article Our Lady has a private birthday August 5, so I’m sure many Medjugorje devotees didn’t even pay attetion to the holiday.

“September 8 can be viewed as Our Lady’s ‘official’ birthday celebrated by the Church. But for followers of Our Lady’s messages from Medjugorje there is another date in the calendar put aside for celebrating the Gospa’s birthday – August 5, best considered as Our Lady’s ‘private’ birthday.”

Confusion and more confusion that is all Medjugorje is.

So this is the guy pro Medj. followers promote for their cause?
For Cardinal Schönborn, the Request to Ordain Women is Not a Problem
Vienna

According to his spokesman, Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna has “no problem with the requests of the Austrian priests belonging to the dissenting “Pfarrer-Initiative” - Pastors’ Initiative. The Initiative was published on June 19th as a “Call to Disobedience”.

The spokesman explained that Card. Schönborn has a problem only with the polemical tone of the “Call to Disobedience”. Before representatives from “gloria.tv”, the spokesman stressed the necessity to further clarify the content of the requests.

These are the demands that cause no problems: ordination of women, lay-homilies, Holy Communion for adulterers.

Furthermore, the “Pastors’ Initiative” requests Sunday services without priests rather than to rely on priests coming from another community. Other demands include a new “image of the priest”, married priests and the ordination of women.

Is one free to adhere to heresy?

According to his spokesman, Cardinal Schönborn supports the “freedom of all Catholics to advocate changes in the Church – even when he himself cannot share these demands”. In the presence of representatives from “gloria.tv”, the spokesman compared the requests of the dissenting pastors with the demand for abolishing Communion in the hand, extending the practice of the Tridentine Rite, or proclaiming the dogma of Mary Co-Redemptrix.

24 August 2011
St. Bartholomew

http://en.gloria.tv/?media=188018

Some Medjugorje seers are saying that the Church will approve the apparitions when they stop and when the seers die.

I understand that if the seers die, the apparitions they had would ultimately end with their deaths.  This is a given.

As far as I know the alleged apparitions at Medj. seem to have no end.

We know that alleged apparitions in history have been approved after they had stopped but it is not necesary that the seers die for it to happen.

Also, Ivan the seer of Medj. says that tests done on them would help the Church approve the apparitions of Medj.  That this experiments done to them would make the Church believe in MEdj. authenticiy.

Their tests would be the proof that the Church needs to approve MEd.? No way.  Since when does the Church approve alleged apparitions by going about the experiments and test done on alleged seers?

peace,
Maria

Maria, have you read the reports? See for yourself what Ivan thinks will convince the Church!

Joe,
I have heard about some reports but have not read them from the official records.
 
Anyways, I think that the scientific tests can not distinguish between the things of God and the things not of God.

Man can not measure the fruits of the Spirit by performing scientific test on people.

Only the Spirit of God knows what pertains to God.

This is why the Church is important in these matters, because the Holy Spirit guides Her.  Jesus promised.

peace,
maria

Wait a second! Now the seers of the alleged apparition are contradicting what they had said before?

Their claim used to be that the Church would approve of Medjguorje when the secrets begin to unfold….and that the secrets will come true during
the lifetime of the seers????? 

Now they, the seers of the alleged apparition at Medj., are saying that the Church will only approve the alleged apparition when it has stopped and when the seers are dead?

Flip flop or confusion….?

peace,
maria

@Maria on Thursday, Sep 15, 2011 3:16 PM (EDT)
The supernatural can be ruled out in certain kinds of cases. If I claim St Francis of Assisi is telling me the outcome of the horse races and I misspell the name of a horse that happens to be a typo in the newspaper, then we can rule out the supernatural. Of course I can recover by saying St Francis got his info from the newspaper in the first place, but only a credulous fool would discount such a coincidence.

But as I said before, there’s no point in asking a veterinarian to confirm that a rabbit is a real rabbit before the magician makes it disappear…

@Maria on Thursday, Sep 15, 2011 3:35 PM (EDT)
Maria, choose at least one:

- Media distortion.
- Anti-Medjugorje distortion.
- Pressure on the seers.
- Seers’ fallible personal opinion.
- Honest misunderstanding.
- There’s no contradiction; we just don’t understand it because it’s a mystery of God.

At any rate, I want to take the article a step further and outline other possible outcomes, regardless of what the Vatican’s decision will be, indeed regardless of whether the Vatican even makes a decision at all.

Maybe the secrets will never be revealed to anyone, including the Vatican. The seers may declare that the secrets will forever remain hidden as a punishment for unbelief, or some other excuse to similar effect. Or, if the secrets are revealed, we will see that they are in practice impossible to verify (e.g. that they are vague; that they are true but given ex post facto; that they are false but will be said to have been obviated through prayer or the mercy of God; etc.).

A cynical conjecture is that they will not reveal the secrets, because, if they do, the show’s over and so is their livelihood. It’s pretty tempting to conclude that the false assertion, disseminated by the pro-Med community, that a series of apparitions has to end before the Church investigates, is the perfect lie to keep the money rolling in while tricking the faithful into ignoring the judgment of competent authorities.

No matter which way you look at it, the demise of the Medjugorje phenomenon is going to turn out badly for a lot of people, and we are hoping for brilliant prudence on the part of the authorities in managing it.

Joe,
I would say it is probably pressure on the seers.  A bit of media distortion has helped their lies to stand the test of time.
Helped by the goodness of pilgrims’ open hearts so that others come to
see or try to experience something.

I always wondered what type of job do the spouses have?  The seer’s spouses? And also what is the source of income for their families?
What decent job do they hold?  Everyone of them including (the seers’)their spouses? Is their source of income mainly attributed to the spread of the alleged Medjugorje apparitions?

peace,
maria

Hey Ryan,
Are you still around??
Maybe you have an answer to some of Maria’s questions.
“I always wondered what type of job do the spouses have?  The seer’s spouses? And also what is the source of income for their families?
What decent job do they hold?  Everyone of them including (the seers’)their spouses? Is their source of income mainly attributed to the spread of the alleged Medjugorje apparitions”
I often wonder the same thing.

I just don’t see how this apparition site can be approved by the Church with all the contraversy it has caused.

Deo, we need to be prepared for the possibility that the Vatican will give a non-answer, and it will be left to fate and to the faithful to finally put this phenomenon to rest. True, if it is of God then it will be successful, but ... it’s not, and so it will die out on its own a generation after the plug is pulled (i.e. after the death of the last seer), just like the postconciliar disorder we’ve been gritting our teeth through for the last 40 years is also petering out under its spiritually sterile and gray-haired leadership. On some level I think the Vatican grasps this. A century from now Medjugorje will be lumped together with Clown Masses and ephebophilia as examples of the short-term fallout of a hijacked council. In the mean time we may as well develop sinewy and efficient weapons against it to hasten its demise. This bulging combox is an example of what happens when the anti-Med crowd doesn’t come prepared.

I am hoping that the Holy Father makes a decision on Medjugorje soon.
The movement is not going to die out, i think, but it will grow out more until it is too hard to stop.  Maybe it is at that stage already.

I don’t think myself as an anti-Medjugorje person,, I only want the truth to come out.  It is only human to ask questions and test the situation by being critical of what I see and hear regarding the alleged apparitions and the visionaries and the followers.

I Pray for this situation to be resolved soon especially to stop the divisions arising because of this alleged apparition.
Peace
maria

I’ve just read an article on a medj. site with the story of Mirjana getting sick for three days after an apparition.  Apparently she thought she would not live to see the apparition.  She fell ill.

I have read before, don’t recall where exactly, that when a true apparition is experienced that after it one experiences peace and joy and is settled by the hope and grace that the true heavenly apparition leaves on the seer.  The contrary happens with false apparitions.  In false appartions the seers experience anxiety, depression, illness, etc. after having had a false apparition. 

This is so confusing, I am hoping that the Vatican commission includes this incident in their investigations so that we can undertand what is truly going on with the alleged apparition of Medj.

peace
maria

I just read in a pro Medjugorje website about an interview to fr. Petar.(the person to whom Marija is supposed to give the first secret or something like that)

Fr. Petar is in a youtube video tranlated to English.  Apparently and according to the English translation, Fr. Peter supports and believes in the authenticity of the alleged messages of Vassula Ryden, even though,
and he knows it too, that Rome has prohibited any dissemination of her ideas and has found the messages lacking and going against Catholic Doctrine.  Even knowing that Rome has given a warning on this locutionist/visionary from Amsterdam, Fr. Petar presents himself against the Vatican’s warnings, which he surely knows since he mentions it, and tries to water it down with the need for unity.
Now, Medjugorje followers are trying to digest this type of nonsense and who knows what they are going to come up with now. 
I pray that the Holy Spirit opens the eyes of many before its too late.
peace
maria

Ryan,
What happens when the Vatican declares the apparitions unsupernatural?  Will it then be that we have had many antipopes and corrupt popes so they are also wrong? Take your rose colored glasses off.  You will NEVER admit that you are wrong about this so called revelation.  Pride.

Asked and answered, Margretto. Scroll up to my posts of Wednesday, Aug 3, 2011 1:46 PM (EDT) and Friday, Aug 12, 2011 3:19 PM (EDT).

The local Bishop Zanic who is now deceased had a fatal flaw. He said the children could not be lieing at first. Then he said they were liars. So much for canon law. One person above said it was canon law that the local Bishop is the last word. What if the local Bishop is unfair and prejudiced. Bishop Zanic disqualified himself by this calling the apparitions true with no commission appointed, I might add one day and saying the opposite the next day. He made it public, at first,  that they were absolutely true. Pope John Paul II saw through this change of mind of Bishop Zanic and over-ruled him.  Bishop Peric is disqualified because he reportedly does not believe in Fatima or Lourdes. If this is indeed true he can not be a judge of any apparitions at all. The apparitions are real and true and the messages are priceless. Listen to Mary. If you don’t want to listen to her let me tell you that her message is to pray unceasingly. That is the Medjugorje message reduced to one word. PRAY. OK…....... also to LIVE the messages. Faith without words is dead comes to mind. But her message is not new. If you follow the Church you are following her messages. Monthly confession, much prayer, Holy Mass as often as possible, love all including our enemies, love God and man etc.
Thanks be to God my discernment ended up believing. There are many good arguments against Medjugorje and Satan makes good use of them. As Mary said, “look at the fruits of the tree.”
It is real.

Medjugorje Message, September 13, 1984 [O]
“Dear children! I still need your prayers. You wonder why all these prayers? Look around you, dear children, and you will see how greatly sin has dominated the world. Pray, therefore, that Jesus conquers. Thank you for having responded to my call. ”

Medjugorje Message, September 6, 1984 [O]
“Dear children! Without prayer there is no peace. Therefore I say to you, dear children, pray at the foot of the cross for peace. Thank you for having responded to my call. ”

Peace and Joy,
mike

One usually trust their own kids until they are found lying.
I believe the seers seemed credible in the begining of the apparition until they began to confuse things and contradict their own stories.

In the very first days there was one story being told and the good bishop had an open mind to them.  Apparently the one story of the begining began to have different stories and things did not make sense anymore for the good bishop to be naive and continue supporting something that went bad.
It began as if good but eventually it showed its true shape and God gave the bishop the wisdom to see it and he saw it and people now don’t believe in the power of the office of a bishop which is an office given by Jesus to the Apostles.

The bishops of Medjugorje have seen and heard things that you and I have not regarding these apparitions and the seers.  For some kind of respect to the good name of the persons involved with these apparitions it is not made public and so we don’t know what has truly happened with what was
noted by the Bishop in the early days and in the days following in order to change his opinion on the apparitions.

The messages of the apparition are too many and some are too vane in my opinion but people have chosen the good that can be taken from them and highlighted them as if those are the only things said by the alleged lady.

I was once a Medjugorge follower but once I heard that the bishop has opposed the apparition and told the seers to stop spreading them, I have
to listen to the voice of the ordinary of the place and the person who
was given the authority from the CHurch on being able to discern on these things in his diocese. That was it for me and for my soul because I believe that faith in JEsus is not only about accepting Him as our savior and Lord, but it is also about doing what He told us through His Gospel and through His Church.  Have faith in the good bishops who in union with the Holy Father and the whole Church have a mandate from Jesus to guide
us through life and even through visits from heaven or spirits and you will be safer.
peace
maria

Mike, you really need to do your homework. None of what you said about Zanic, Peric, John Paul II, or canon law is accurate.

The latest on Medjugorje:  people who watch the apparition through a computer will also receive the alleged lady’s blessings. ????

Also, things put close to the computer will be blessed by the alleged apparition?????

?????
Maria

It is obvious why the new commision has been ordered to investigate.  The Bishops from Medjugorie have complained to Rome in person, for years of the disobedience, scandals and division caused by those involved in the so called apparitions. There is such a powerful propaganda machine that promoted Medjugorie from the very beggining promoting it as an approved shrine almost from day one.  Convincing the followers by means of propaganda that the fact that medjugorie visionaries have been disobedient,lied and have caused many a scandal is of no consequence because after all look at all the good fruits, and the spinning suns and the ten secrets…...  it does not matter how many good fruits there are if we disobey the Church in favor of supposedly obeying Our Lady.  This powerfull propaganda machine has a lot of money and have been receiving money from the beginning at every single conference that they have had all over the US and other places. They are now haveing the visionaries have apparitions on TV and are actually trying to force the approval of this so called apparition.  If it is not approved the non believers lose nothing, if approved the non believers do not have to believe in it. But if not approved the followers will turn away from the church because they will ot accept the ruling as they have refused to accept not one but two previous rulings.  That is why Rome has taken over because they know how powerfull this propaganda machine and what it can do if and when it is not approved.  There was a priest that was very negative about the church not approving medjugorie in public.  The medjugorie people think that if they have some known figures this will help to get an approval , how sad that they believe the church would be pressured by such. The messages will never end because it would be very obvious that none of the socalled secrets will happen. Every thing that they have said in reference to the secrets is so mundane that any body could say the same thing and be right.  Everyone loves the Blessed Mother and we have to be very carefull because the devil knows this and also knows how much people are wowed by so called miracles and phenomena. He knows how to ge a big following with 99% truth and 1% lies and that 1% will be where he leads you astray because he has hooked you so well that you throw caution, reason and obedience to the wind.

When there is a bigger more important fish to catch, the many small ones are used as bait.

The devil wants to destroy the Church and in his plan he uses poor simple people to think they are converting to the true faith, so that these same people one day would turn against the shepherds of the Church and try to finish with the Catholic Church by undermining Its authority on earth, so that there are no more priests, Bishops, or that they don’t listen to the Holy Father anymore.  Hence, chaos and confusion in the Church.  When there are no more priests to say Mass and to consecrate the bread and wine, there will be no Eucharistic Miracle, no more Bread from Heaven, the Food for our souls, the sustainance of our spiritual life, then we grow weak and vulnerable and will be more susceptible to the snares of the devil. 

San Micheal the Archangel protect us.
Peace
maria

Sono lieto di informarvi della nascita del social network dei pellegrini : http://www.viaggidiluce.it

Spero questo lavoro sia utile a coloro che vogliono condividere esperienze, emozioni, informazioni , foto , video ed altro materiale sui vostri pellegrinaggi a Medjugorje, Lourdes, Fatima…... Vi aspettiamo

JPII, who publicly credited OL of Fatima for saving his life during the 1981 assassination
attempt, consecrated the world to her Immaculate Heart during his convalescence in 1981, and again very publicly
in 1982. Again in March 1984, JPII consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, inviting all
bishops to join him; many (but by no means all) bishops took part in simultaneous celebrations in various basilicas around the world. October 2000,  JPII, again in a very public ceremony with nearly 1,500 bishops present, “entrusted” the “world” to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Reasons why it was not done( from Cathy Pearson)
-Canonical territory. Because numerically there are so
many more Orthodox than Catholics in Russia, would any
papal action specifically about Russia seem presumptuous, an
invasion of “Orthodox turf”?
-Pride. Would Russians be insulted by the suggestion that
they need to convert more than the people of other nations do?
-Sectarianism. Would any Catholic prayers aimed at “theconversion of Russia”—especially in this post-Soviet erawhen some feel it has already converted from Communism—be interpreted as aiming at a conversion from Orthodoxy toCatholicism? (The latter, though a perfectly appropriate desireand prayer intention on the part of Catholics, would understandablybe a sensitive point for the Orthodox.)
-Pressure from secular sources. Just as it is possible thatthe Popes or other Vatican officials have feared to consecrate Russia due to pressure from threat-wielding forces outside of and hostile to the Church, bent on stopping the supernatural benefits the consecration would bring, it is also possible that while the Vatican may instead merely be afraid of offending the Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox themselves could be motivated in their objections by pressures from threat-wielding non-ecclesiastical forces within Russia.
http://www.renewamerica.com/images/columns/081210abbott.pdf
My thoughts: Bella Dodd’s involvement with communists in the church , Rome/Moscow agreement of 1962,  non mention of Russia in the consecration of the world, vcii lack of condemnation of communism, vcii allowing reps from the orthodox church to the council, the link between the apparitions of Fatima to communism all add up to one thing: the church is controlled by communism. Hence, there has not been a consecration of Russia, no matter what Lucy stated.

A few comments on here speak of Mary`s “obedience” to Bishops. Why does she need to be “obedient” to any human. Bishops have their own free will to believe or not believe and as humans, they can and will make mistakes. Mary is perfect in the eyes of God. And neither is the Church perfect. God gives the Church inspiration, but it`s up to us try and do his will. I`ve been to Medjugore nine times. I have witnessed unusual phenomena. But that was not my purpose in going there. I desperatley sought to have that link with God, after I had lived a life of bad decisions, drug abuse, alcholism and a host of other things that distanced me from God. I truly believe the apparitions are real. And I think more focus should be on Our Lady`s messages, rather than claiming it is a hoax when you don`t really even know for sure that it is. Peace