Your poor relative. You sound more like an atheist than a Catholic.
Silly little Mexicans for getting in a tizzy over the bushwah of our Lady of Guadalupe. Silly 70,000 people who got in a tizzy to view the miracle of the sun at Fatima. Silly Pope John Paul II for beiving the hooplah of the Fatima prophecies and consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart and for saying that Medjugorje is a continuation and fulfilment of that prophecy. They’re all silly and you’re just fab aren’t you? How old are you? Grow up and support your brothers in Christ. God doesn’t send these things for nothing my friend. You remind me of those who scoffed at and ignored the many prophets God sent in old testament days. Try starting to listen to a few of them.

I said nothing about Guadalupe or Fatima, both of which are approved by the Church.  Garabandal, Conyers, Bayside and Medugorje have not been approved by the Church.  Rather, the bishops involved have, with varying levels of force, said “There’s nothing supernatural happening here.”  I have this crazy idea that you should trust the Church rather than private “seers”.  That’s called “being Catholic”.

Paul, and other commentators, I would point you in the direction of Bishop Peri?‘s statement of January.  As the local bishop of the area, he holds highest authority on the matter until Rome decides to weigh in.

<a >http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/medjugorje_bishop_says_cardinal_schnborns_visit_brings_greater_suffering_to_his_diocese/</a>.

The distinction between ‘worthy of belief’ (the Church’s official stamp of approval, when it is given, to private revelation) and doctrines & dogma must be kept firmly in mind.  No one is bound to believe private revelation, and their faith should not be questioned in the light of their belief or disbelief of some or all private revelations.

More to the point, despite Pope John Paul II’s personal and private (ie, non-Magisterial) support of Medjugorje, the Church has yet to make any determination on the apparent apparitions.  This is not to make any judgment on him or the apparitions on my part - we might well hope that they give us greater insight into the will of God for us in our time.  However, before placing any faith in them, we should turn to the Church to help discern its origin. 

And so far the Church has not given Her approval to these apparent apparitions.

For those who are interested, it may be helpful to read the official statements offered at the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno (where the apparent apparitions are occurring):

http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?menuID=98

I am glad, however, that you recognize that JPII did indeed consecrate Russia according to Our Lady’s request.  A lot of private revelation conspiracy theorists deny this and play havoc with their faith and the faith of others thereby.  I hear the quote about Medj. being the fulfillment and continuation, but I’ve never been able to track down a source for it in the actual documentation about JPII.  It just sort of circulates like a bad penny in Medj. enthusiast circles.  Is there any evidence that this is not an urban legend.  And if there is, is there any particular reason for giving John Paul’s private opinion magisterial weight as Medj. enthusiasts so easily do?  In this case (unless Rome actively intervenes to contradict them—which is won’t) the bishops who have repeatedly rejected Medj. are the ones to be heeded here.  In which case, God didn’t send anything to Medj and there is nothing to heed there.  Me: I stick with apparitions approved by the Church.  If (which won’t happen) the Church reverses the repeated finding of the bishops at Medjugore, I will happily eat crow.  But I won’t be bullied by enthusiast who run ahead of and even contradict the bishops who have consistently rejected the claimed apparitions there.  They are closest to the matter, not Bl. JP II, whose private opinion was not, on this matter, infallible.

You’ve been condescending and unsupportive towards your relative and you’ve tried to paint a general picture the whole idea of fervour towards private revelations as “getting into a tizzy”. Neither Fatima NOR Guadalupe were approved at the time everyone got in a tizzy over such bushwah. So, what are you talking about?

Having the good idea to trust the Church ahead of private seers should not lead you to reject private revelations as a first choice course of action. I repeat that God sends seers and prophets for a purpose. The final one he sent, as we know, was his own son and boy didn’t those Jews think Jesus was a tizzy-infected personification of silliness.

By the way, “There’s nothing supernatural happening here.” is quite a misleading interpretation of the actual jugement. It was just that interpretation that caused much of the division concerning Medjugorje at least. It isn’t necessarily a final judgement. It’s one of two options local bishops can choose from “nothing supernatural proven” and “proven nothing supernatural”. In the case of Medjugorje, yes, Bishop Zanic concluded his investigation with “nothing supernatural”, but what is by far more important is that the Vatican very abruptly dismissed and rejected this finding and set up a new commission which was not headed by Zanic. A third investigation is now underway.

I have this crazy idea that we should listen to the Vatican ahead of any one Bishop. Along with appreciating all forms of God’s communications through mystics and visionaries since the dawn of time, THAT’s being Catholic.

You’ve been condescending and unsupportive towards your relative and you’ve tried to paint a general picture the whole idea of fervour towards private revelations as “getting into a tizzy”. Neither Fatima NOR Guadalupe were approved at the time everyone got in a tizzy over such bushwah. So, what are you talking about?

Having the good idea to trust the Church ahead of private seers should not lead you to reject private revelations as a first choice course of action. I repeat that God sends seers and prophets for a purpose. The final one he sent, as we know, was his own son and boy didn’t those Jews think Jesus was a tizzy-infected personification of silliness.

By the way, “There’s nothing supernatural happening here.” is quite a misleading interpretation of the actual jugement. It was just that interpretation that caused much of the division concerning Medjugorje at least. It isn’t necessarily a final judgement. It’s one of two options local bishops can choose from “nothing supernatural proven” and “proven nothing supernatural”. In the case of Medjugorje, yes, Bishop Zanic concluded his investigation with “nothing supernatural”, but what is by far more important is that the Vatican very abruptly dismissed and rejected this finding and set up a new commission which was not headed by Zanic. A third investigation is now underway.

I have this crazy idea that we should listen to the Vatican ahead of any one Bishop. Along with appreciating all forms of God’s communications through mystics and visionaries since the dawn of time, THAT’s being Catholic.

Re your second post, I’d like to point you to a resource for Medjugorje that has made a point of being objective and providing documentation as backup for all assertions. http://www.medjugorje-apologia.com.

I also have some resources which I’ll try to dig up.

Fr. P. Stravinskas said the consecration never happened and that we should just drop this.    John Paul spoke about Russia as though it was still awaiting a particular consecration.  What does this matter anyway?

Private revelations seem to be a snare, even the approved ones.

In the UK, there is a particularly nasty strain of Catholics who insist that the consecration of Russia to Mary was never done, because JPII did it for the whole world, and didn’t name Russia in particular. This mob is a major source of the trolls that infest comboxes. They insist that the church (and Sr Lucia, the last Fatima visionary) is lying when it says that the 3rd secret was completely revealed, and have all sorts of lurid explanations as to why that is, mostly involving Fr Gabriel Amorth (who *is* a Medjugorje believer, allegedly).

Because of the pathologies, it’s best not to attach a huge amount of attention to apparitions. Be cool, people. The world is running down anyway, and we’ve always been on the side that takes the most casualties.

There have been hundreds of vocations that have co efrom Medjugorje as well as hundreds of substantiated and well documented miracles.  Of the thousands of priests and numerous bishops thathavegone there they have consistently been amazed by the very long lines at the confessionals which are setup foralmostanylanguage.

I think some of the current apparitions/locutions are authentic. It takes careful discernment, but if they have spiritual directors well versed in the phenomena, the purported visionary is obedient, and there are good fruits, it is at least worth considering. Christina Gallagher is not one that I am inclined to believe is authentic, though.

Amos 3:7 – Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.

1 Thess. 5: 19-21 – Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophesying, but test everything; hold fast what is good.

Joel 2:28 – And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.

It’s complicated - many people are drawn in through friends and people in authority. I was too.

The “apparition” industry does have a lot of hucksters in it - a lot of money comes into the Medjugorje area. A lot of people make money off of gullible Catholis - just like the old revival meetings we former Protestants used to be warned about. I fell prey to more than one. It makes it hard to believe even in the approved visions after that.

What I do find interesting is the lack of charity by the believers of these things. Very cult like reactions - condemning those who question the authenticity of events and shunning.

You might find this video interesting: Medjugorje Hoax offers video proof http://www.lifeinsmallspaces.com/Diary/D2011/Sep11/D091911.html or go to Mr. Belanger’s website (scroll down) for link.

If seeing is believing then there is the proof. But the heart rejects what it does not want to know. God bless you for taking this subject on.

Elizabeth,
Wait.  So some believers in an apparition who act badly prove it wrong?  Please.  You don’t think there were people who acted badly, pushing and shoving for position, etc. at Fatima?  The records pretty much show that there were.

If your criteria for believing in an apparition is that everyone who believes in it must be a saint, then you will not find any to believe in, that much is certain.

Has it not occured to you that the muslims,hindus, et al, are being used by God as the chastisement of his people for their infidelity? It is not that those people will not be punished. Those fanatics are already lost in eternity. War itself is a punishment for sin, if I remember Fatima correctly. Look how, within the Catholic Church, there is blasphemy, heresy, the flock being led astray by its shepherds, the Blessed Sacrament downgraded to a “meal,” and on and on.  I don’t know about all the private revelations. I do know that the three days of darkness has been prophesied by others, coming long before Garabandal; and that St. Pio believed Garabandal to be authentic. He could be wrong, of course, but he did have mental and spiritual gifts that we can’t deny.

Thanks for a well written article. Do you know any good books on Catholic eschatology?

In 2006, according to the Catholic News Service, Pope Benedict in conversation with Bishop Peric said, “We at the congregation always asked ourselves how can any believer accept as authentic apparitions that occur every day and for so many years?” According to my count, the seers at Medjugorje have had over 35,000 visits from Our Lady—including messages to disregard the supervising bishops, statements that all religions are the same, etc.  Hard to believe.

Good point, Gloria.  There is definitely Biblical precedent for God using the pagan nations to chastise God’s people, when they stray from God’s covenant.

Satan will push you out of the church in any direction you want to go, be it modernist or traditionalist.  But I believe it was Cardinal Newman who stated “As the church moves through history some leave on the left some on the right but as the church moves through time both are left standing in the same station of misinterpretation”.  (my apologies to the cardinal)
Does God withdraw his Grace from sinful persons?  Certainly.  Does he allow enemies to chastise His friends?  Apparently. He let it happen to Israelites and since He can’t change….well, maybe we better be like the first century Christians as Fr John Hardon said, “unless we recover the zeal and the spirit of the first century Christians - unless we are willing to do what they did and to pay the price that they paid, the future of our country, the days of America are numbered.”

No,Dave - look at the video proof. Medjugorje is already a fraud. Sorry. But Medjugorje believers want so desperately to believe in it that they shun those who do not. I’m not a believer anymore - and so I lost friends because of it. And that is because some people make their living off it or have cult power over their followers - so they encourage believers to shun those who do not believe them. That is what I said.

If all the other revelations through Marian apparitions after 1917 are not authentic,why would Fatima be authentic? Why does the Church, especially in time of John Paul ll, harp so much on Fatima?

Caeli Francisco - it is a mystery. I think we are headed for a schism -hopefully not a great one, but a schism none the less. Will Catholics choose the Church or choose an apparition? I think the Church is trying to offer the authentic Fatima over the inauthentic ones.  Any good thing will be distorted by evil - so the challange is how to come to terms with authentic mysticism and the fake stuff.

Elizabeth,
Give me a break.  I watched the video.  You may be right, but if so, the scientific studies should have shown that they are not actually in a state of ecstacy, and the apparition should have been debunked years ago.  So now the scientific investigators are drawn into the conspiracy.

I am not convinced either for or against Medjugorje, but if it was that obvious of a fraud, it would have been easily found out by now.

Dave - you prove my point. Anyway you can read my story at the same website. Thanks.

If you dont think that GOD is not going to punish the world for the sins of abortion, the sins of the homosexual lifestyle, the sins of the filth of priestly homosexual abuse, the sins of catholic women taking the pill and men wearing condoms to stop life, you will believe when it does happen. GOD had his fill of sin in noahs time and sent the flood and the world of our time is completely dead in sin….our world is going to be torn apart by the justice of GOD….

I’m not sure how I proved your point, but OK.  You cite one video that shows that a hand stuck in front of Vicka’s face apparently caused her to flinch.

My question is:  surely hundreds of people stuck their hands in front of their faces, jostled them, etc. over the years, not to mention the scientific studies that were done where they intentionally did all sorts of things to them to test whether they were in ecstacy.  So, if it is an obvious fraud, why is there just this ONE example?  There should be hundreds, or thousands.  Or perhaps you think that hundreds of people are in on the conspiracy?

Dave - there is plenty of other evidence. All of which I’m sure you will reject as hearsay. I’m sure reject the bishop’s negative report because you are told to reject it by the promoters of Medjugorje. There are two sides to this little war within the Church. Why should you believe them over the local ordinary? And now it is in the hands of the Vatican Commission.  When the pope’s commission again denies it authenticity - just as all the past commissions have - will people then say we must wait for another pope? It is heading towards a schism. Sadly.

Carl - all miracles and graces belong to God, not to an apparition. That is the teaching of the Church.

Gallagher is thought of as a mystic? I thought Gallagher just smashed watermelons.

There have been hundreds of vocations that have co efrom Medjugorje as well as hundreds of substantiated and well documented miracles.

The bishop begs to differ about the ‘well-documented’ miracles.  As to the ‘fruit’ argument, consider the article at this link.  That God honors the faith of honest pilgrims means absolutely nothing about whether or not Mary is appearing at Medj.  The disgrace and monstrously wicked Maciel generated hundreds of vocations too.  I wouldn’t be surprised if some miracles were attributed to him.  Big deal.  The Church determined he was a fraud.  Similarly, the Church is never going to approve Medj.

Mark, your correspondent hit the central point precisely when he stated that we should be living moment-to-moment for Jesus. We must always be ready, not just for the end of the world, but for our own ends. The world “ends” each day for multitides across the globe, and whether it comes through cancer or heart disease or stepping in front of a bus, we must always be prepared when it is our time.

Elizabeth - I don’t reject the bishops report, nor do I reject other bishops who have more positive views.  I am quite content that the matter is in the hands of the Vatican commission, and I really doubt that there will be a schism over it if there is a negative judgment, though some people would surely be disappointed.

Having the good idea to trust the Church ahead of private seers should not lead you to reject private revelations as a first choice course of action.

I don’t.  I remain agnostic about unapproved claims—unless the evidence is clearly against those claims as it is with the four I mentioned.  As to the JPII quote, I’m not interested in yet another Medj site repeating the claim.  I’m interested in actual documentation that he really said it.  Also, even if he did say it, Fr. Maurer is perfectly right: the local ordinary is still the go to guy here until (which will not happen) Rome overrules him.  The notion that its okay to believe in any cockamamie vision you want so long as Rome has not definitively condemned it is not Catholic.  When the local ordinary speaks, that it.  You listen to the local ordinary.  If, on the extraordinarily rare ocassion Rome should contradict him, then you have a case.  But till that happens, you listen to the local ordinary.  That’s Catholic.

Finally, please be aware that I am quoting my reader.  we are not talking about my relative here.

Very good Mark - I agree completely.  John of the Cross would concur.

Msgr. Pope:

Paul Thigpen has a nifty book called The Rapture Trap that not only deals with the Left Behind and rapture business, but also gives a nice overview of Catholic eschatology.

Time for the assistant coach to gather the team around for some basics. 1. JESUS has aleady forgiven all our sins, personal and corporate and global, national state and those done by the Church as instituion and by its clergy and members. That is what CALVARY and the Eucharist mean. Now, those sins have consequences, greed kills the poor, abortion kills the babies and their mothers/fathers if involved and the abortionists’ souls sooner or later. Abuse destroys the innocent young. War does more damage than good and divides the human family and steals money from doing good. Aids from sex and drugs destroys lives, death and diseases. GOD is not punishing the guilty, our own sins and greed and “me myself” do that to us. Those who are hurt by our sins are favoured by GOD, read the OT Prophets and the Beautides and Magnificat of Mary. And the warning from the judgment parable in Matthew- sheep or goats because we see or ignore Jesus in HIS suffering human “images” of the unseen GOD as HE was and became the WORD speaking that message by HIS life and words.  The MAYAN prophecies and whether Russia is consecrated are irrelevant, On the latter, +Fulton Sheen said decades ago the USSR with the CROSS would find JESUS before the West with its JESUS but no Cross. Dying to self and our addictions to self and stuff.  Was he right?

Ah, Mark.  When I saw that you mentioned Medugorje in your list I thought, here we go!  Well, I’ll check back again in about three months and see how the com-box discussion is going.  But first I’ll check with the Vatican website to see if there is anything new by way of approval.  For sure there is likely to be nothing new in the com-boxes.

Dave - we’ll see. Meet you on the other side and hopefully we’ll have a good laugh over it. :-)

Mark—good article and it covered all bases. I always wonder why people cannot accept the approved apparitions
and leave it at that. The flimsy Medugorje thingy has gone on far too long. Our Lady does not need that much time to get her point across (Fatima, Lourdes, LaSalette, Guadalupe.) Some people must forget that if they want signs and wonders, so did Herod when Christ stood before him. We already have our Lord in the miracle of the Blessed Sacrament…

I was greatly influenced by Ignatius’ “Discernment of Spirits”. If you take it to depth, then you learn that even Lucifer can present himself as a being of “light”. You can’t know where ultimately this stuff comes from unless you carfully look at the content, the context and it’s fruits. I think the church does a pretty good job as a whole on being cautious about approving apparitions, miracles, etc.
    I think a sane person might ask, “why should Mary even bother coming in an apparition if it’s only going to confuse people? We already have the guidance of the Church.” I think part of the answer is precisely that most people do a poor job of discerning spirits and we will each need to get good at it if we are to personally defeat the Devil in our lives.

Mark I loved your comment:
“It also gratifies our pride (because we will be part of the elect and our loser neighbors who, like Noah’s neighbors didn’t get on the ark, will have to confess-WE WERE RIGHT).
Yes, as you say, “that gratifying thought that one is not part of the common herd of suckers, but instead privy to Secret Knowledge” had me laughing out loud—which scared my dog. I think those reflections sum up why others go that route, and once again it is basically pride. Thanks for the article.

I got in trouble with people who elevate Folk Heroes in the past by stating facts - not “trashing” - Michael Brown of Spirit Daily, Ted Flynn of Sings for Our Times magazine, and other apparition chasers.  Some of them like to mix Scripture and the CCC with unapproved apparitions or locutions, like the Father Gobbi ones, to confuse people even further.

I also don’t like when other Folk Heroes cast doubt on the Church’s wisdom and prudence in discerning these things.  A favorite passage of theirs is Pope Paul VI’s “smoke entering the Church” statement.  They try to paint anyone who opposes their pet apparition as people who got into the Church to try and destroy it from within.  Now, everyone knows there are bad eggs in the Church, but they’re not part of some shadowy conspiracy financed by the Freemasons and the New World Order.

One guy even boldly pronounced:  “Read my blog or rue it.”  In other words, listen to him and the unapproved apparitions he quotes, or you’ll regret it.  That takes and awful lot of pride and nerve, neither of which Our Lord has.

In defence of some believers - wasn’t Fatima “secret knowledge” in 1917 with the promise of a sign?

Do not despise prophecy!  Mr. Shea would benefit from reading “Trial, Tribulation and Triumph” by Desmond Birch.  Fatima is all about the coming chastisement.  I believe that we are living during the fulfillment of the Fatima prophecy.  It didn’t come to an end with the assassination of Pope John Paul II.  What a bunch of rubbish!

Elizabeth:

Yes.  And the priest did very well to ask for some sort of confirmation.  The folks who say, “Believe or else, you faithful heathen!  You are like the Israelites who rejected the prophets!” are not persuasive.  And the Fatima visionaries never indulged in such rubbish.

Mark, I agree - however you have to remember that Medjugorje was molded very early on in the image of Lourdes (Fr. Laurentine) and Fatima (Miravalle, et al.). Today we have Cardinal Shoenborn - very respectible priests and theologians in the camp of “believers”. I agree that the perponderance of information is negative today - but it was not always so. Many people have invested decades in this apparition. I’m just saying it’s more complicated than many understand and involves many people of good will. When it is officially condemned (as I believe it will be) there will be a great deal of disillusionment with the Church.

Thrust the catholic church, approved apparitions, it isnt real until the men in the costumes say its real. The time is at hand. Its time to follow Christ and leave the Pharisees and Sadducees alone. Leave them to their rituals and follow the Lamb.

Elizabeth:

I agree.  And the moral of the story is: don’t invest in unapproved public revelations or you could wind up in a crisis of faith or even, as Chris demonstrates, as a deluded more catholic than the Pope vision chaser in rebellion against Holy Church.

What is it about Medugorje enthusiasts that make them go ballistic if someone dares to question its authenticity? If someone says he or she does not believe in Fatima or Knock or Our Lady of Guadalupe, I can point them to resources online and elsewhere, and to Church approval, and the good fruits of these apparitions of Our Lady. Yes, there seem to be “good fruits” from some false apparitions, but that proves nothing. God can bring good out of evil if he chooses. As to priestly vocations being fostered by Medugorje, I just learned of two priests who have left the priesthood after being convinced that they received their vocation at Medugorje. No one talks about the “bad fruits” which have been well documented many years ago, by E. Michael Jones, the marriages that broke up because one of the spouses became obsessed with this alleged apparition. Rosaries turning to gold? That’s one of the signs of false apparitions. People returning home and suddenly becoming “see-ers” and profiting from books, seminars, etc. Or the sun spinning in their own backyards in the USA? I run the other way now when Medugorje enthusiasts approach me because if I refuse their literature, they turn on me with a vengeance, wondering how I could possibly be in my right mind! The requests of Our Lady of Fatima have yet to be fulfilled by the faithful: daily rosary, First Saturday Devotions, Confession, prayer and fasting. Medugorje has effectively diverted the spotlight away from Our Lady’s messages to us in 1917. What an effective trick Satan has played on all of us for the past 3 decades.

Mark - If only it was that easy - sometimes the “apparition” comes to you in a veiled form. St. Catherine of Siena once boasted that she knew all the tricks of the devil and so God allowed her to be plagued by the devil for 10 years. That said - God protects babes and fools. And all such experiences are not all loss, but a chance for spiritual maturity - so we can’t know how many saints are actually in the making on both sides of the debate.  The trial is still ahead and it’s going to be tough on everyone to remain chritable once the line is firmly marked by the Vatican.

Eliz, the church is the body of saved born again people, not an organization. To follow Christ is just that, to follow Christ. There are no holymen in bright costumes amongst the born again.

I’m with Mark and (on Medugorje) Elizabeth G all the way. With Medj all the signs are that a long and drawn out case of divide and conquer being prepared by old hairy legs. I spent many years in and around the place and and spek the language fluenbtly - let’s just say that once you get to know a bit about the locals, local history and local Church history) things become very interesting! I pray regularly for Bishop Peric who is falsely condemned day and night by the Medjugorje-brigade and, whilst he remains string and clear as an authentic apostle of Christ, he bears a heavy cross. How Our Blessed Mother must suffer seeing this son of hers being condemned and ignored in her name. I am struggling at the moment with someone who is hooked on ‘John of God’ (Brazil) - does anyone have any useful experience to share about what seems like another clear eligible case to add to the tizz-list? (NB - I see Vassula Ryden - another phoney - has been told to ‘go run and jump’ by Patriarch Bartholomew in recent days - good for him!).

Msgr. Pope:

I read a book over 10 years ago that I thought was excellent about eschatology.  It is “Trial, Tribulation & Triumph: Before, During and After Antichrist” by Desmond Birch.  It is a very scholarly (sometimes redundant) treatment of end times, with research and quotes from Scripture and the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.  It is not light reading, and can be difficult for those who are not used to reading scholarly work.  The footnotes are extensive!  This is my reference book when I hear about a private revelation, or when I get a Protestant talking to me about the Rapture, for this book’s research is phenomenal and helps me refute many of these if they are not in line with Church teaching.  I know it is still available on-line.  Also, I believe EWTN did a series “The Last Things” that was based on Birch’s research.

If anyone else has read this, I would be interested in knowing if you were as impressed with it as I.  Thanks!

It’s true that, among the fruits of Medugorje, we count many vocations to the priesthood and consecrated religious life, and I know many good and holy men and women who attribute their faith to an encounter with the apparitions and their message.  And the faithful who believe in those apparitions are apt to look at those fruits and quote Matthew 7:16 (“by their fruits you will know them”), but good fruit is not enough.

Just a few lines later we hear about those who “prophesy” and “drive out demons” and “perform miracles” in God’s name, only for God to say He never knew them.  These surely seem like as good a fruit as any.  How many times have we heard of Catholics falling away for the “fruit” of happy Protestants or Orthodox or schismatic sects?

I’m sure people will pretend I mean otherwise, but I’m not saying that Medugorje is false.  I’m only saying that as edifying as these messages may be, as good as the fruits are, they are not unequivocal evidence for its validity.  God may indeed be working through the apparitions, or He may be working in spite of them.

I don’t know what to believe about unapproved or un-rejected apparitions, but I trust that all revelation necessary for my salvation and yours has already been made known in Jesus.  If tomorrow, in all her Magisterial authority, the Church approves or rejects Medugorje, it does not change the rock we have in Christ.

My evangelical sister is always telling me about how the end must be near because of all the bad things happening—mostly political. And it is always with the understanding the only the true believers know its coming.  I hadn’t really connected this trend to Gnosticism but your article puts it in perspective. Many evangelicals (some of the Catholic who follow the mystic crowd) do think that only they have the “secret sauce” that will save them. It is hard to find a good explanation of Gnosticism to begin with but I thinks I knows one when I sees one.

Gnosticism, at the bottom line, is thinking one has been given the gift of understanding God’s mind by interpreting (usually by some human symbolism) the signs He gives us. It’s not that we don’t get signs from God, but we rarely understand them until they have reached some end He has in store for us. We rarely know before that end what they actually mean.

P.S. And you see that is where the trouble begins. If you think you have witnessed a sign - that recognition involves human interpretation on your part. You can try to protect yourself from making a mistake of interpretation by not recognizing anything as a sign, but how will you know if you have missed a true sign from God? Are you closing yourself off to God by being afraid to make a error?  That’s why it’s all so very complicated and confusing. (But it’s also why getting prophecy right is not as important to the Church as living your faith as best you can.)

Lots of interesting “prophetic tizzies” out there. John Leary being one of those I question.- he sounds like the rapture thing. But as said before me up above, we have the Arc of the New Covenant, the cloud by day, the fire by night, our Lord in the tabernacle. May God bless us all.

Elizabeth and Dave, if you want to, you can read my book about the apparitions of Mary.Contact me at kundela@ibits.co.za

Mark you are not God. You are not the fount of all knowledge.  You are a mere mortal like the rest of us. Many of the cognoscenti who attack Medjugorje fear the truth. They comfort themselves by ridiculing it.
@polycarped: You and all the critics of Medjugorje should read Responses to Medjugorje Criticisms:
http://www.medjugorjelive.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9039

I never believed in Medjugorje. Then again, I never believed in Jesus Christ, God or the Catholic Church until the age of 51 when I was “brought” to Medjugorje. What happened to me had me professing God’s existance within 48 hours of being there as I also saw what a sinner I was. I had a St. Paul conversion and one year later I was confirmed into the Catholic Church.
No one has to believe any private revelation. The key is to look at the fruits. If they are benefiting the Church and bringing people and glory to God, they are good. Medjugorje has done both. The Vatican has stated people may go there and priests can minister to those who come. As long as that is the case, you might want to keep your uninformed opinions to yourself.

“It’s not that we don’t get signs from God”
Hilarious.

Why is that hilarious, Bill? Are you an atheist?

Deb, What if the Vatican rules against Medjuggorje? Will you still believe in your conversion?

Caeli - thanks - I’ll bookmark it. I can’t promise when I’d get to it though.

As for your concerns about Medjugorje - why not ask the thousands upon thousands of people who have been there and been converted by Our Lady - Catholics returning to the Faith and Protestants coming into the Catholic Church - not to mention the many Priests who’s hearts have been changed by being there.  Judge by the fruits.  If you have not been there, I highly suggest you go!

“Many cardinals, many bishops, and many priests are on the road to perdition, and with them they are taking many souls… Less and less importance is being given to the Eucharist..”

- portion of Our Lady’s final Message allegedly given at Garabandal, Spain on June 18, 1965.

Honestly, you couldn’t get more prophetic than that!

Greg - it was the 60s - the middle of the sexual revolution. You’d have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to have heard people talking about it in those terms. It’s not always insight from a prophet, just mimicry of common sense.

the biggest sign Medugorje is likely nonsense is the hypersensitive, incredibly aggressive manner in which they deal with skeptics. If its truly catholic, why does it require such fierce attacks and biting commentary? It appears they feel holier than the church. Also troubling is the comparison to Fatima and how that wasn’t immediately accepted. Granted, but we’re those three children so militant in evangelizing on its behalf? No. The suffered persecution with humility and charity. A Christ-centered message being delivered by such means a Medugorje ? Hard to believe

@John “Many of the cognoscenti who attack Medjugorje fear the truth. They comfort themselves by ridiculing it”.

John, I haven’t ridiculed Medugorje. It holds too much of an important place in my personal history for a start. Many Medugorje-ites however (perhaps not you yourself - I do not know) very openly ridicule the local Bishop who I, as someone who at least strives to be faithful to the Church founded by Jesus Christ (on Peter - with the prayer, wisdom and direct support of His Holy Mother) am obliged to place my trust in as the defender of truth in this situation.

“You and all the critics of Medjugorje should read Responses to Medjugorje Criticisms”.

Dear John, I would place bets that I have probably read (and experienced) more about Medugorje than you might care to believe or imagine - both in Medugorje where I lived for many years and at home. I experienced many good and profound things in and about Medugorje and appreciate that some of the fruits may be ‘good’ - but I’m afraid that at the heart of Medugorje lies division and disobedience, encouraged by Franciscans who have a long track record of the very same thing. Mary, I somehow feel, would not stand for the tearing apart of her son’s mystical body in this way and that points to something odd, in my view. Ultimately, even though it may take personal pain and sacrifice (which it has for me), we are called to be faithful to and trust in Mother Church, unless of course we believe that the Holy Spirit (God himself and Mary’s Spouse, no less) has rescinded on His guarantee to keep us from error. This has not happened as far as I am aware. Mary, Queen of Peace, pray for all of us.

Sorry, I should emphasise quite clearly that the point I made about the Franciscans needs a qualification - this refers very specifically to the Franciscans of the local (Hercegovina) province (and the issue well known throughout the universal Church as ‘The Hercegovina Question’ - nothing new).

Peace.

Elizabeth….......if the Vatican states that Medjugorje is not of God and no one is to go there or to promote it, I will obey the Church. That decision however, would not negate the conversion process that started in Medjugorje and continues to this day. What God has given me will not fall away if Medjugorje is banned. Jesus Christ is my life. I love the people of Medjugorje and I have taken home the peace and love I discovered there.  My faith began there. My knowledge of God began there. I experienced supernatural wonders and miracle theres. Nothing can undo that.  If they were of the devil, then he has screwed up big time because my life has been given to the Lord.

re: Elizbeth G. -in your reply to Greg about it being the 60s, in fact it was 1965 that our altar rails were ripped out, and the tabernacles began being moved into broom closets. Bishops and priests did this.
  The only bishop I’ll pay attention to is the Bishop of Rome and our magisterium.

Hey Mark,

didn;t Blessed Maria Taghli and Padre Pio mention the 3 days of darkness?

It would be good if you clarified their written words and not alter the true meaning.

Sorry Mark, I am going with both of the recognised Blesseds.

@Deb - that’s a good answer, but living it will be hard. I know, been there. It’s very hard when people you trust in such important matters let you down.
@Charles - I think that was my point. It was already happening - not a prophecy of things to come.

Interesting conversation.

Someone was asking about the Consecration of Russia.  I read on Wikipedia:

In October 1942, Pope Pius XII performed the Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for the entire world and a decade later in July 1952 he specifically consecrated the Peoples of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary by his apostolic letter Sacro Vergente Anno. Pius XII stated:[6][7]

  “Just as a few years ago We consecrated the entire human race to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so today We consecrate and in a most special manner We entrust all the peoples of Russia to this Immaculate Heart…”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consecration_of_Russia

Someone please tell me if this isn’t true.

Surely there’s one thing we all know, Mark. The world ends for some one of us every single second of every single day and that someone will be called into account for the life they lived. I suggest the best preparation for the end of the world is to pray for the salvation of sinners and to live our lives as though each moment might be our last. There is a teaching moment here that might be extracted from all of this generalized apocalyptic dread. Let us not miss it!

Mark you are not God. You are not the fount of all knowledge.  You are a mere mortal like the rest of us.

And you would have a devastating point if I had claimed to be God or omniscient or immortal.  But as it is, I claim only to rely on the judgement of the local ordinary and not on the judgement of zealots like your self who think themselves smarter than Holy Church.

Many of the cognoscenti who attack Medjugorje fear the truth.

Speaking of claiming godlike powers of omniscience, who do you know why people criticize Medj?  For myself, I do so because I care about the truth and the fact that zealots like you encourage people to ignore the judgment of the local ordinary in favor of your private opinion.  I have never met a soul who was skeptical of Medj. out of “fear of the truth”.  I have met many and many a Medj. zealot who shouted down honest people in what looks an awful lot like fear of the truth.

As for your concerns about Medjugorje - why not ask the thousands upon thousands of people who have been there and been converted by Our Lady - Catholics returning to the Faith and Protestants coming into the Catholic Church - not to mention the many Priests who’s hearts have been changed by being there.  Judge by the fruits.

Let’s reword that slightly and see if you spot the flaw in your logic:

As for your concerns about Fr. Maciel - why not ask the thousands upon thousands of people who have joined the Legionaries and Regnum Christi and been converted by this great saint - Catholics returning to the Faith and Protestants coming into the Catholic Church - not to mention the many Priests who’s hearts have been changed by him.  Judge by the fruits.

Please read this link.  Your understanding of fruits is defective.

‘Despise not prophecies.

But prove all things; hold fast that which is good.’

1 Thessalonians 5:20-21

Some prophecy’s are contingent upon how a people behave, like in Jonah’s case. And he was upset that disaster didn’t strike.  And then he was also upset when the plant shading him withered and died.

I agree with you position to trust the church and follow with it’s decisions and rulings.  I also know that Galieo was a ruling made by the Church that turned out to be not true.  I agree that, Medugorje, Bayside and Conyers have all of the issues of the cult of celebrity, but Garabandal, in my opinion holds something very very different. The visionaries dissappeard and hid themselves. This is very confuseing but facinating because that is what they claimed would happen. The messages that were conveyed warned of the chastisment and this wasn’t new, but also warned about problems that were about to arise in the Church.  The Catholic Church changed greatly after Vatican II and this doesn’t mean that all that came from Vatican II was bad.  The prophecy of Garabandal regarding these events seem to have had some fruition.  Also a priest at the time of apparitions died and recieved the gift of becomming an inncorruptable after he had died and saw the Blessed Mother.  I maybe wrong but that doesn’t seems like something the demonic would have the power to do or would want to do.  I say this in reference to some who think it may have been done from a demonic power.  I just think that there maybe something to some of these apparitions and vision, and that they all might not be so easily discredited.

Dear Mr. Shea,

You do provide sound advice concerning one’s attitude toward the
future evils of the world.  That one should focus on the kingdom.
And we must be careful or discerning regarding most mysterious
claims from individuals.

However, one must strike a healthy balance between skepticism and
gullibility—a moderate caution if you will.  There are a few
things you should at least know concerning the relation of public
and private revelation so as to understand this issue better.

Private revelation, as explained by Benedict XV when a cardinal,
not to be confused with our current Holy Father, is a legitimate
part of the Church tradition.  He explains that it is basically
scripturally based as it is a manifestation of the ‘prophetic’ and
‘visionary’ charisms mentioned by St. Paul in his letters. 
As such, legit. private revelation does not take away from public
revelation but augments its hidden and inherent truths.  To demonstrate, in many of the approved apparitions it calls for penance, fasting,
conversion, prayer, and many of the things communicated by scripture.
Note how even the writer of St. Mark states, ‘let the reader beware’, as to note the future prophetic signs. 

Secondly, falling into the ‘old’ its not in the bible, reiterates the
Protestant and erroneous understanding of scripture.  The word of God is a written and living tradition and is comprised as a unit, not in part, which gives way to the legitimacy of such messages.  Legitimate private revelation is apart of the Church Tradition, the voice of God explained and lived in the Church. 

Third, you are not understanding the 3 forms of classification for ongoing private revelation and confusing the categories in the Church.  Here they are:

1)  Constat de supernaturalitate - This is a positive judgment meaning the apparitions are of a supernatural origin

2)  non Constat de supernaturalitate - Which mean the Church does not approve nor condemn the apparitions in question.  Typically this is a “wait and see category”, meaning that the Church will proceed w/further investigation.  ( this is most frequently confused bc of the –non, people see this and they think that this is a refutation!)
 
    This is not the negative category!  It is neutrality.

3) constat de non-supernaturalitate:

  - this is the category of prohibition!  This is where the Church, typically the local bishop says we “prohibit any dissemination of the supernatural origin of the messages” 

Medjugorje is in a position of neutrality currently being evaluated by the Vatican.  Each Catholic is free to disagree with or hold to it as a legitimate apparition based on their own discernment.  This is true for any ongoing apparition as the Church never grants the category or acknowledges something is ‘of supernatural origin’ till the completion and end of all the apparitions.

Mark—if you feel lazy one day, you can just write; ” Medj.—-No way, its a hoax.”  Then sit back and watch the comments flow.

I was once a ‘devotee’ of Medjugorje but slowly began to pick up on inconsistencies and plain weirdness that came with it.  But I’ll never forget when I asked a friend of mine—a deeply prayerful Catholic who was part of the charismatic renewal—why she didn’t attend a Medjugorje conference with our circle of friends.  Her response has never left me:

“We have the Church, the Sacraments, the Bible.  What more do we need?”

Indeed.  Perhaps those who chase alleged Marian apparitions ought to take stock of what Christ has entrusted to His Church.  To ask for anything more would be showing gross ingratitude to Christ.

M. G. Hysell, MA MTh

Mark, this article is a must read for any Christian interested in Medjorgue. I never heard about Medjorgue until a couple of years ago, when one of my relatives told me a story about a lady at her church who supposedly speaks in tongues.  The lady told my relative that when she was at Medjorgue, her rosary turned to gold.  I asked my relative if the lady showed her the rosary, and she said no. I had a similar experience at my own parish.  I was at a class and the religious educator told us that she had a friend who went to Medjorgue, and that her rosary turned to gold.  She said there was a “vortex” at Medjorgue.  I asked if this friend could show us the rosary.  I personally asked if I could see it.  The answer was no.  The friend did not want to show it to anyone and wanted to keep it hidden away. I thought this was very strange.  It sounded like the occult to me, to keep things secret and hidden away for only a select few to see.  I also thought it was strange that the two rosaries in question turned into gold (or so they claimed).  Isn’t that what the occult practice of alchemy is all about? Why would God want to make a rosary turn to gold when Jesus is calling us to cast away riches and worldy things? Jesus wanted us to give away all our belongings and follow Him, leaving worldy things behind.  This is what it says in the New Testament.  Wouldn’t it make more sense then, if Medjorgue was true, that if a pilgrime was to bring a fancy gold rosary to Medjorgue, that it would be turned into something of no material value, like wood?  Jesus was a carpenter after all, and I don’t remember reading anything in the New Testament about Him turning things into gold.  He did make food though, to feed hungry people. Fish and bread, specifically.  The only other people I have met who really know about Medjorgue run in Regnum Christi circles.  Whenever they talk about Medjorgue, it’s like a whole other religion to them, and in a really intense way.  There were a couple of times when I nicely tried to tell them that Medjorgue was not officially approved by the Church and that you didn’t have to believe in it to be Catholic.  They just blocked me out and pretty much sent the message that if you didn’t believe in Medjorgue, then you were not “in-the-know”,lacked faith, were dumb, bad and/or not a real Catholic (frustratingly, I also got this same reaction when I tried to warn them about Maciel).  Scientologists pretending to be “stress testers” also blocked me out the few times I confronted them pandering at the county fair, the train station and my college campus, to try to get them to admit they were Scientologists. I won’t give-up though.  We all have a duty as Christians to protect the truth and spread the truth, even when nobody wants to listen.

Mark, it is patently obvious that you know squat about Garabandal.  The trouble with you converts is that you presume to preach while, contrary to your own impression, you are still at the foothills of a very steep learning curve. 
Get in line and read a book or two about Garabandal before you open your mouth.  Garabandal visionaries have said that the world is due to experience a warning, a miracle and perhaps, a chastisement.  Conchita, the main visionary, knows when some of these things will happen.  While she has not publicized the dates (having been forbidden by The Virgin) she has said that they will happen and has even given certain details about them, including the date and time, in one specific case.  We have been told that things will happen between March and May, on a Thursday at 8.30pm and this will happen during an event of great importance for the Catholic Church.  Now I ask you, if all this was, too quote your quaint American slang, ‘hooey’, would she put herself up to be made a fool of.. . ? She makes no money from the apparitions that happened way back in the sixties but leads a quiet life in the US to where she emigrated in search of work.  She waits for the day when she will be able to tell the world that the miracle which will take place near the pine trees at Garabandal is due to happen.
Say, did you ever hear of the apparitions in Zeitoun, Egypt?  They were witnessed by thousands of people… and they were certified by Coptic (and I believe even muslim) leaders.  These apparitions happened around a Coptic church which is actually situated on the road that Joseph and Mary travelled along in their flight to Egypt.  More ‘hooey’, Pope Mark…?

@ Pepin the Short (tempered?)

“...things will happen between March and May, on a Thursday at 8.30pm…”. Weather pemitting.

If you are a Roman Catholic, then you trust the promise of Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit will guide His Church for us, always.  When the Church, through the Bishops, declare that there is nothing supernatural from God in Medjugorje or in the wealthy—-apparently very wealthy—Christina Gallagher, then, case closed.  Period.  What has happened is traditional Catholics who have become disillusioned by the wackiness of some American Catholic churches, veer towards these false visionaries because they seem to point to a renewal of Catholic faith with an almost “remnant” type mentality in a world of modernism.  But what a contradiction that is because the visionaries act in defiance of the very Church they claim to be renewing.  If these visionaries were truly from God, they would be obedient to their Bishops, trusting that God would vindicate them in the end, like Padre Pio.  But they do NOT obey.  And the danger is that their followers begin to pick and choose which part of the authority of Christ they will follow.  They rationalize that they can follow Christina Gallagher despite the Bishop’s orders because that Bishop is “bad”.  Same for Medjugorje.  They are waiting for the big guns….for the POPE to declare these visionaries credible.  And what will happen to their Catholicism if the Vatican claims the visionaries are false?  Will they leave the Catholic Church?  Not believe the promise of Christ, and claim, instead, that we are living in “anti-pope” times?  It is sad.

@Jocelyn - you nailed it. How big is it? “Whatever will be the decision of the Holy See, the damage will be severe.” Vittorio Messori on Medjugorje Dilemma:
http://www.lifeinsmallspaces.com/Diary/D2011/Oct11/D100711.html

@polycarped lol re weather permitting, but the Garabandal apparitions are still being investigated.  The prophecy is rather specific, but then again wasn’t the miracle of the sun also prophesised?

@ jocelyn anderson

Spot on. Nail on the head. Very well put.

@polycarped lol re weather permitting, but the Garabandal apparitions are still being investigated.  The prophecy is rather specific, but then again wasn’t the miracle of the sun also prophesised? Or was that hooey too?

@jocelyn anderson:  If the Church had to say that Garabandal was not supernatural or even a fake I would accept the verdict without a murmur.  But it hasn’t yet done so…

Mr. Shea, you speak as one having authority. Since you do not, it would seem you speak too much. Bishops have been wrong. Those granted the grace to be visited have been persecuted, even killed. You may be wading into these arguments on the wrong side. There are better issues to address the world from your big soap nox. If the good fruits of vocations and conversions come from possible apparitions and visions, who are you to decry them? Sta zitto.

I personally don’t know whether Medugorje is authentic. But I have met an astonishing number of good people who have found the faith through some Medugorje connection—so many, in fact, that it almost seems that the generation that was first catechized by JP II, was first converted through Medugorje.
  Given that fact, for you to characterize the people involved as “highly dodgy, getting very rich, or getting women very pregnant while vowed to the priesthood” is inexcusably irresponsible. You describe Medugorje the way much of the secular media describes the Catholic Church as a whole, namely, in terms of scandal and hearsay. Frankly, I think you should be ashamed of yourself.

Pepin the Short: Your assessment of converts was inaccurate, condescending and uncharitable. Perhaps you would like to rethink your words.

Maybe the doubters would view
(1)This video of Char Vance who WAS a non Catholic who went to Medjugorje
http://youtu.be/Ni2kMkBe4hU
(2)Colleen Willard’s Me?ugorje Miracle Testimonial
http://en.gloria.tv/?media=39412
To the doubters I say:Suspend your unbelief and sit down and view both. The second video is 83 minutes 59 seconds long.

Mark Shea wrote: “Similarly, the Church is never going to approve Medj.”

Dear Mark,
Be careful. You know the following, I’m sure:

Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.

“Mr. Shea, you speak as one having authority.”

No.  I speak as one having an informed opinion.  If I’m wrong, I’m wrong (but I’m not).

Pepin

re: Garabandal.  This is good enough for me.  If the Whatever it Is you await is to happen in May, you should ask the Blessed Mother to make it happen on May 21, on the anniversary of Harold Camping first end of the world.  When that doesn’t pan out, do like Camping and shoot for October 21 for the second end of the world.  And if all else fails, there’s December 21, Mayan end of the world.  (What is it with 21sts and the end of the world).

No problem with Our Lady of Zeitoun since it is, you know *approved*.  But then I’m just a wet behind the ears convert of 24 years who trusts the magisterium over the opinion of an enthusiast with a keyboard.

I’m not waiting for anything in particular.  I just read two books about Garabandal a few years back.  I’ve also read some books about our Lady of La Salette, Guadaloupe, Fatima and Lourdes because I find apparitions an interesting subject to study…  Your source upon which you are ready to rely in order to give your (vicarious) verdict upon the whole affair is not as well informed as one would wish him to be.  I would check out some other sources besides the opinion given by one running an ‘Alaskan Apologetics Cruise’(!) (Hallelujah! Praise the Lord ...!) You are the enthusiast because, I repeat, you know (or knew) nothing about what you chose to criticize.  You did a quick check in order to ‘put me in my place’.  Problem is that you did not search hard and long enough. The jury is still out on Garabandal, effectively…

The moment you talk about apparitions, Mark, is when all sorts of inflamed opinions (I am being charitable here) come out. Your shoulder must bigger than mine, so you probably do not mind.  Personally, I have never paid attention to Medjugorie, do not see the need to delve into that.  Coming to think of it, even though Fatima is approved, it does not add one iota to my beliefs and to my trying everyday to be a good catholic

People who are interested in apparitions are often looking for God to speak to them personally. Many of them are very vulnerable people who are deeply wounded.  They make great marks for conmen.  If you want to know why they believe in any apparition look to why they are there in the first place. If you believed God spoke to you directly through another person - wouldn’t you fight to preserve that memory? If not for self-preservation? “For who can bear to be forgotten?” It takes a lot of courage to admit you can be so wrong for so long. That’s why it’s important to remain in contact with those who are following a false apparition - when it all falls apart who will be there for them? Trust me - very few. People know the names of cult leaders, but rarely those of their followers.  The mental and spiritual damage will be great - God have mercy on us all.

I always thought the three days of darkness was the Los Angeles Religious Education Congress….

One other thing I have noticed about followers of these recent apparitions is that when challenged about authenticity, there is often an uncharitable response and ad hominen responses.  For heaven’s sakes, we follow Jesus Christ, NOT Christina Gallagher, NOT the 6 visionaries, NOT Conchita.  Nowhere does our Catholic Church demand that we even believe in the approved apparitions.  We have it all right now.  The Mass, the Church, the Bible.  And anything after that….prophecies, apparitions, etc., should and MUST be tested by the Church, and frankly should be met with skepticism by the faithful, unless approved by the Church,  because the result is division—i.e. the devil.  See 1 Cor 1:12-13.

I would check out some other sources besides the opinion given by one running an ‘Alaskan Apologetics Cruise’(!) (Hallelujah! Praise the Lord ...!)

Devastating logic.  I will inform Karl Keating he is now a Protestant convert yokel and so his arguments and evidence can be ignored in favor of some snob with a keyboard.

Hay Mark.  Why do want to insult your readers?  Why not enlighten your readers without being crule.  I’ve read some of your books and your really making me think twice.

Take another look at Medjugorije…

I take it you are not a big fan of Medj! Interesting point on Bishop Peric. You are correct to say that the local bishop has authority - but in March 2010 the Vatical launched its own independent investigative commission within the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith led by Cardinal Camillo Ruini. This constitutes the first time in Church history wherein the highest office of the Holy See will investigate an ongoing apparition site. The list of people involved in this investigation is impressive to say the least (please see http://?www.catholicnewsagency.com/?news/?vatican_announces_members_o?f_medjugorje_commission ) Notably Bishop Peric has not been asked to take part. Also interestingly, Cardinal Schonborn (Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the New Evangelisation and Director of the Catechism of the Catholic Church) recently invited the visionary Ivan Dragicevic to come and publicly recieve his daily vision of Our Lady in St. Stephen’s Cathederal in Vienna - once again showing his support of the apparitions. While we are all free to draw our own conclusions regarding Medj - one cannot ignore these developments.

On September 12, 1996, Cardinal Christoph Schonborn, the Archbishop of Vienna, the main author of the Catachesim of the Catholic Church, acknowledged this striking reality about Medjugorje while addressing an audience of 10,000 in Vienna.

He explained: “If I was an opponent of Medjugorje I’d have to close down my seminary since almost all the candidates have received their call to the priesthood through Medjugorje!”

The Archbishop further added – “I am reflecting: We are losing three things that we are getting back in Medjugorje: penance, conversion and vocations. In Austria we look in vain for these things. Conversion is not mentioned anymore because people do not need it; Confession is dying out with us except in shrines and in the churches of religious orders where this sacrament is sought and lived; spiritual vocations are less and less. In Medjugorje this is happening constantly: Confessions, conversions and spiritual vocations!”

In this, you write ‘foolish to be saying that God has inflicted a particular suffering on a particular people’. Really? Have you ever read any of the Old Testament and what God did to punish his ‘chosen’ people? The Church never said ‘discount all of the Old Testament, just because we have the New.’
You appear to equate ‘Left Behind’ with ‘Three Days Darkness’. Really? Anything I have read, with a critical eye, concerning Three Days Darkness does not profess a ‘select’ amount of people will not endure suffering and will be ‘swept up’ to heaven while still alive.
Maybe reduce this entire article to ‘Nobody knows the day nor the hour except My Father above’ and leave it at that.
Welcome to the Church, by the way.

Mr. Paul Baylis, you have still not adequately responded, nor has Mr. Conte, nor has any Medjugorje supporter, to my article series, “Discerning the Spirits: A Fresh and Balanced Look at Medjugorje”. I would ask you to especially focus on Article IV - here it is clearly shown that Medjugorje cannot possibly be authentic.
.

I went to the APPROVED Marian apparition site in Champion, Wisconsin, about 2 weeks ago. All I could think about was Medjugorje while there - wondering why people flip out over Medjugorje and yet here was a quiet, still, and tiny place where Mary came and spoke. Lots cheaper to fly to Green Bay, Wisconsin, folks!

I went to the APPROVED Marian apparition site in Champion, Wisconsin, about 2 weeks ago. All I could think about was Medjugorje while there - wondering why people flip out over Medjugorje and yet here was a quiet, still, and tiny place where Mary came and spoke. Lots cheaper to fly to Green Bay, Wisconsin, folks!

Check out my blog at Cheeky Pink Girl - I wrote about my experience.

Normally I enjoy reading the comments after articles, but I am disturbed by the lack of charity on some of the posts here.  I was drawn to Medjugorje during my conversion, and my rosary turned gold.  I show it to anyone who wants to see it- it was also later blessed and touched by JPII on my honeymoon, but I don’t make a big deal of it because the greater grace is to not have seen and believe.  On our honeymoon my then agnostic husband prayed his first rosary at Medjugorje, and began his journey into the Church.  What does this mean?  I don’t know- I try to hold these things in my heart, and wait and listen and pray.  I think the most important thing is that we remain focused on Christ, and as we debate about the authenticity we remember that even if we are right about whatever position we take- if we don’t have love we are like crashing cymbals…  Enjoy the debate, but please don’t forget we are all brothers and sisters.

[But then I’m just a wet behind the ears convert of 24 years…]

Yes, my friend… it’s certainly nothing to be ashamed of… but that’s very true.

Elizabeth…my conversion in Medjugorje was an incredible turning point in my life. If Medjugorje becomes banned by the Church, it will not affect my life with Jesus. Medjugorje was just the start of my conversion. What happened there could have happened to me any place else, but it did not.  I will always love the people of that village. I personally could care less what other people think about Medjugorje. I believe that those who are called to go there, go there and receive what the Lord wants them to receive.  As far as the rosaries and medals turning gold, yes, it happens. I have a rosary that turned gold over night, but not until two years after I was there. Big deal. I can witness the miracle of the sun every time I look at it. I have sat and stared into a bright sun for ten, fifteen, twenty minutes at a time, hundreds of times since I first witnessed it in Medjugorje. I consider it a sweet little kiss. These are all little things that play no part in my faith.  My faith is a gift I was given by God. My faith and my love for Jesus Christ is the fruit of Medjugorje in my life. My transformation has changed the lives of people around me too. If a person loses faith over some little thing, then they never had it to begin with. I believe in the Vicar of Christ and I will follow the Church in whatever it says. God gave me the true faith, not the cafeteria one.
Wade:  I don’t need to read anything against Medjugorje. Unless you have been there or you are the Pope saying no one can do there, your opinion is meaningless to me.  I met Jesus Christ in Medjugorje. So, regardless of its authenticity, that is where He was, when I was there.
I wish I had more time, but I have a prayer retreat to go to this morning and tomorrow I attend Carmel. I am a first year novice in a third order of the Discalced Carmelites.  As a side note, most of my way to Medjugorje was paid for by a student in the seminary.  He had been a business man in New York City until he went to Medjugorje.  He was ordained a priest last May.  Look at the fruits. If you have never been there, please, just keep your opinions to yourself. Seems to me the fanatics are those who have never gone and somehow resent the gifts that others have received, so they have to tear it down.

Dear Deb and ATV, you said that your rosaries turned to gold at Medjugoje.  ATV, you said that you show it to anyone who would like to see it (as I stated above, the only other people I have known to make this claim have refused to show us).  I would really like to see. Can you please post a close-up picture of your rosary that turned to gold? If it can’t be posted on this blog, can you email it to Mark Shea? Then I can give him my email address and ask if he can forward it to me, without including any of your contact or personal information of course.  A close-up of a before and after picture would be much appreciated.

Please leave me out of this transaction, Kent.

I do not think anyone denies that the HOLY SPIRIT is confined to 100 Percent Bona Fide authorised sites. Moses’ Edad and Medad received the Spirit after the “official2 group. Jesus said that those who were not against Him were with Him when the apostles objected. If one is prudent about supposed locutions or visions, or “messages”  and is not caught up in a money-racket, we can see the Holy Spirit at work everywhere.  “The Spirit blows where He wills Jesus said so we use discernment and watch for obvious fakery in moving forward.  And respect the final judgment of the competent Church authority about authenticity, which is not necessarily the same as “nothing happens there” until that decision is announced,

Thank you, Charles, to my initial post. The posting by the Greg on Wed., Jan.11, 2012, 10:51 pm, is not me but some other Greg. Just a clarification for the ‘other’ Greg: the priest at Garabandal who died after allegedly seing a vision of the coming Great Miracle (Fr. Luis Andreu)the same evening does not have an incorrupt body. In fact, it was exhumed in the late 70s and found to be totally corrupt. According to one of the children seers at the time of his death in 1961, the Virgin told them that on the day AFTER the Miracle Fr. Luis’s body would be found incorrupt. Although the official Church position still upholds the original conclusions of the Santander diocese of which Garabandal, there has been a very open attitude on the part of the new Bishop. The church in Garabandal also has its own website now, and even talks about the apparitions. This would not have happened unless there has been a ‘nod’ from the diocesan authorities. For those who wish to see the photos and films of the apparitions and read the documentation, go to the website www.stjosephpublications.com

A miracle takes place each time you attend Mass. It is called the “transubstantiation”. As for rosaries turning “gold” they may turn a gold color, but not gold!  We need to practise our holy Faith, and not make it dependent on an apparition.  Christ has provided us enough for the salvation of our souls..

Thank you, Charles, for replying to my post. The other post by Greg is not me (Wed., Jan.11, 2012,10:54 pm). But a clarification to the ‘other’ Greg:
Fr. Luis Andreu, the priest who died at Garabandal in 1961 after purportedly seeing a vision of the Great Miracle to come, is not incorrupt. His body was exhumed I think in the late 70s and was found corrupt. One of the children seers was allegedly told by the Virgin after his death that his body would be found incorrupt the day AFTER the Miracle which actually means a reconstituted body that will remain incorrupt to the end of time. This isn’t as outlandish as it sounds, as, in the Gospels, Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead after four days. For anyone wishing to view the photos or films taken of the girls in ecstasy at Garabandal, go to www.stjosephpublications.com. The church in Garabandal, St. Michael’s, also has a new website. It also talks freely about the apparitions. This could not have happened is the Santander diocesan authorities didn’t allow it.

Thank for, Charles, for commenting on my post. The posting by the Greg on wed.,jan.11,2012,10:54pm is not me. But to clarify what he wrote: Fr. Luis Andreu, the priest who died at Garabandalin 1961 after purpotedly witnessing a vision of the coming Great Miracle, does not have an incorrupt body. In fact, his body was exhumed in the late 70s and was found to be in a corrupt state. Immediately after his death, one of the children seers was allegedly told by the Virgin that on the day AFTER the Miracle, his body would be found incorrupt. This is something entirely different, and that his body will be reconstituted and remain incorrupt after the Miracle. This is not as outlandish as it seems. Christ rose Lazarus after four days, and saints have also been recorded to restore the dead to life.

An interesting point regarding the Medj apparitions is that they are often reffered to as ‘reptetive’ or even ‘boring’ ! This of course refers to the fact that they are saying nothing new for our faith. They are acting as a reminder and a renewal of how the faith was once - and should be lived. The Medj supporters have their living faith burning in their hearts for everyone to see. Isn’t this how it should be for all of us?
“Let you religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair” - GK Chesterton.

I suppose you are right on one hand Mark, but wrong on the other. You’re correct in reminding us that all this “end of the world” speculation and self righteous assertions which emanate out of of the sensational claims of alleged seers, should be dismissed. For Jesus admonished us not to speculate of those times.  “But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.Mark 13:32”

On the other hand Our Lord reminded us to look to the “signs of the times” “And in the morning: Today there will be a storm, for the sky is red and lowering. You know then how to discern the face of the sky: and can you not know the signs of the times?” (Mat 16;3) 

So as far as that goes, It’s my feeling that we are indeed witnessing “the signs of the times” Across the globe a terrible insurrection is rising in numbers never before witnessed. And again, in America the signs are evident.  Our chastisement may be at hand by simply realizing that only a wicked, fallen away generation would overwhelmingly choose a man who bears all the resemblance of “The man of perdition” who will usher in the age of evil around the world. It’s hard to ignore the idea that this man is indeed a plague upon us all. There are just too many indicators that point in the direction of an awful judgement heading our way. 

We must not speculate based on grandeur or a sort of self aggrandizing and contemptible clairvoyance, but neither should we ignore totally those “signs of the times” which we are instructed to look for.

Posted by Patt on Saturday, Jan 14, 2012 5:03 PM (EST):A miracle takes place each time you attend Mass. It is called the “transubstantiation”. As for rosaries turning “gold” they may turn a gold color, but not gold!  We need to practise our holy Faith, and not make it dependent on an apparition.  Christ has provided us enough for the salvation of our souls..

Patt, I don’t think anyone that I know who has been to Medjugorje would ever state that their faith was dependent on an apparition. They would say that being in Medjugorje brought them faith or to greater conversion in their faith. You are correct regarding the miracle of transsubstantiation. I get to be a part of that every day of my life. It is the center of my life.

Elizabeth, you wrote:
If you want to know why they believe in any apparition look to why they are there in the first place. You seem to believe those who go are all complete dupes without a brain.  My sister got me to go. She went because the Blessed Mother kept calling her to go. She kept saying she could not afford it. Out of the blue, someone offered to pay for her entire trip. She asked me to go. I told her I would rather stick needles in my eyes than spend nine days in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of holy people. She kept at me for months. I couldn’t stand my pious sister. An afternoon with her was agony. Finally I told her I would go if someone else paid for it. Dang, someone wanted to, that seminary student. I told her I would go to church with her once and then do my own thing and I didn’t want her praying around me. You see, I hated the Church, organized religion and had no belief in God.  God however, had other plans. I was sure by the time we got to Medjugorje that I had made the worst mistake of my life traveling with these people. Forty-eight hours later, I knew God existed. My life of sin was laid before me and Jesus Christ held out his hand and gave me a choice, to come to him or to walk away.  I took his hand and gave him my life.  It happened in Medjugorje.  Coincidence?  I think not. I could care less about rosaries changing color or the miracle of the sun or what anyone thinks about Medjugorje. If it is banned tomorrow, my life will not change for one second because I don’t live for Medjugorje, I live for Christ. I am completely, totally, head over heels in love with him. That was the fruit of my trip.
Those who oppose something they have not experienced, something that the Vatican has said is okay to experience, do it out of ignorance. No one says anyone has to believe, but attacking it and those whose lives have been changed by it, is simply showing a complete lack of charity and also of the belief in how God can work.  He can do anything, anywhere, at any time. How little your minds are, how shallow your true belief in God and how prideful that you attack with such surety of your “Divine” knowledge.  I guess it is the same with most subjects in the world today, ones “opinion” is usually based on nothing, but feelings, certainly not with facts.  Just like those who can’t be convinced that God exists, because, they know better.

No Deb, I did not think you were a just a dupe. That’s the way we’re treated by those in the Church who don’t care about the Medjugorje phenon.
I believed in it for about 15 years myself. I meant simply that there is a need that the Church is not meeting for those who go to Medjugorje. It’s a psychological need. Conmen take advantage of that. It doesn’t mean you did not meet God there. Honestly - both sides of this debate are missing the problem. One side thinks that Medjugorje is not a big deal and so doesn’t require a minute of their charity or thought - they dismiss believers as people who deserve what happens to them. The other is so afraid that they might be wrong that they must demonize anyone who might suggest there might be something wrong with the devotion. It has become such a feud that whatever the ruling of the Vatican commission - both sides will be bitter and at a loss about how to deal with it.

No, Deb, I wasn’t making fun of you.

Deb - I just meant there was a psychological need for people who are devoted to Medjugorje that the Church is missing.

I just meant that there is a psychological need that the Church is failing to meet and that people go to Medj. to find it. That’s how cons are worked.

Sorry for the multiple responses - my connection seems to be bad this morning. In any event, Deb, I was a “dupe” too. So you are not telling me anything I have not experienced. However, you’ll find very little sympathy from those in the Church who do not believe in Medj. I am sorry about that. No one really cares about each other on either side of the debate - that’s what I have found. They just care about being right because they are so heavily invested in one side or the other. It’s going to cause a great deal of bitterness when it’s finally resolved. I am afraid though, that the Vatican is dragging it’s feet about it because they don’t understand how we got here either.

The wise Irish monks had a saying “if you are going to Rome to find Christ, make sure to bring Him with you.” So many pilgrims are more cusiosity seekers than believers.  I have seen people and heard them after extraordinary conversion experiences but the instant kind are not the norm for the Holy Spirit. As the well-known healing nun Sr Briege McKenna who does global ministry with Fr Kevin Scallon says ‘the same Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament is the one who works through me.” We can run out and away to chase “experiences” and “miracles”  all the while the Blessed Trinity is within us and Jesus’ Dying, Rising and sending the Holy Spirit after His Ascension is present at every Mass and in the tabernacle of the local parish church.

Well, Scanlon is known for picking up “instant” visionaries and dropping them isn’t he?

Scanlons latest was Mark Miravalle’s find called: Anne, of the “Direction for our Times” fame, right? Sr. Briege was also taken in, too, and had to distant herself. Honestly, this is why there is so much confusion.

What is the relevance of Fr Scanlan and Sr. Briege making mistakes in trusting people who did not deserve that trust. They preach JESUS CHRIST as faithful priest and nun, spend lots of time in prayer and minister to priests mostly but all groups worldwide.  What problem does anyone have with “confusion”? It’s all around us, we have to be alert and discern the Spirit. Why has Medjugorje gone on so long without intervention IF it is not genuine? If the papacy has not decided on that yet, why expect two global evangelists to know fakes instantly?

HermitTalker - There’s a lot of money in the book and lecture tour businesses that many faithful Catholics give their money to. People in the business know there are lots of frauds out there - some of them wear collars and some of them teach in Catholic universities. I do not know which these two fall into. But when they endorse each other’s “projects” they give credence to people who have not earned it. The scandal is not just in Medjugorje it is in the Catholic academic and publishing houses as well. Sadly, I know this from personal experience.

The scandal, HermitTalker, is in the sin of “omission” - the silence about how many of these charities are all about personal and professional gain.

Once the facts were checked out and the local bishop made his position clear Fr Kevin and Sr Briege withdrew their support from the US lady who came to Ireland and seemed to be on a acam. Neither of the two of them gets fees or milk the Cash Cow for personal financial gain. As to what academicians, or scientists or politicians or TV evangelists do about money or with it or how they raise it is a whole world in itself. We used be able to rely on investigative journalists for truth in those matters but today they are also infeced with Original Sin and need “second opinions”  from other sinners who are also axe grinders!

HermitTalker - they are friends of Mark Miravalle. They know that this is his project. They say nothing. Look, all these “seers” have to be promoted through a network of connections in order for the faithful to know about them. I’ll bet there are a lot of people who know the truth about this business and are sorry they promoted Garabandal, Medj. and other less savory characters like “Anne”. I’m not seeing a whole lot of Mea Culpas from them right now. They are all dumping this on the Vatican to sort out and it’s a shame. As for an axe to grind? That’s funny - if you had witnessed what I witnessed. I know how some of these characters push the bishops around.  What makes you think that only Protestants have Elmer Gantrys?

Don’t worry, HermitTalker, I’ve already been told that no one is interested in my witness.  I’m quite used to it now. And yes, I am a sinner.

Let’s use some logic regarding alleged apparitions. According to church canon law, the bishops’ job is to classify and determine if an alleged apparition is true, false or can’t be determined as follows:

1) Constat de supernaturalitate—It is certain that the events are of supernatural origin.

2) Non-constat de supernaturalitate—It is not certain that the events are of supernatural origin, or the supernatural origin has not been established. In this classification, the events in question are still open to eventual recognition as being authentic.

3) Constat de non supernaturalitate—It is certain that the events are not of supernatural origin.

With regard to the Garabandal apparitions, the bottom line is that it has NOT been condemned. I’ve seen an interview with a local bishop who stated that the word ‘condemned’ has never been used about Garabandal.

So, if it hasn’t been determined that Garabandal is a true or false apparition, then one must conclude (according to canon law) that the bishops cannot make that determination at this time, and that “the events in question are still open to eventual recognition as being authentic”.

Besides, if the bishops’ statement that “nothing supernatural occured at Garabandal” is taken literally, then why has it never been condemned?

Let’s use some logic regarding alleged apparitions. According to church canon law, the bishops’ job is to classify and determine if an alleged apparition is true, false or can’t be determined as follows: 1) Constat de supernaturalitate—It is certain that the events are of supernatural origin. 2) Non-constat de supernaturalitate—It is not certain that the events are of supernatural origin, or the supernatural origin has not been established. In this classification, the events in question are still open to eventual recognition as being authentic. 3) Constat de non supernaturalitate—It is certain that the events are not of supernatural origin. With regard to the Garabandal apparitions, the bottom line is that it has NOT been condemned. I’ve seen an interview with a local bishop who stated that the word ‘condemned’ has never been used about Garabandal. So, if it hasn’t been determined that Garabandal is a true or false apparition, then one must conclude (according to canon law) that the bishops cannot make that determination at this time, and that “the events in question are still open to eventual recognition as being authentic”. Besides, if the bishops’ statement that “nothing supernatural occured at Garabandal” is taken literally, then why has it never been condemned?

Someone above asked why the Vatican allowed Medj to go on so long if it isn’t genuine.

It’s gone on so long because the ‘seers’ and their supporters have disobeyed the bishops.  The guy where the buck stops on apparitions is supposed to be the local bishop.  All the local bishops have come down against it being genuine and told the seers to shut up.  (My summary.  Go visit the Medj. diocese’s webpage for details.) The bishops’ conference didn’t support it either. But the seers keep going.  My impression is that the Vatican got involved because of the disobedience which caused the whole mess to keep growing.

And remember, disobedience is known sign of non-holiness, false apparitions, etc.

Elaine, you are correct. However, many authority figures in the Church - theologians and priests - and the Catholic press in many instances - redefined obedience. They claimed that anyone who made a judgment on the apparitions before they ended - like the bishops had - were in a sense, jumping the gun. Therefore anyone who passed a negative judgment were not obedient to the magesterium. You can read the reasoning of Dr. Miravalle, Fr. Laurentin, and now, unfortunately, Cardinal Shoenborn. And it gets worse than that - because they used the same ruse for scores of false apparitions around the world - including the one in Seguin, Texas where I’m from. Dr. Miravalle actually brought the false messages to Rome and got the local bishop to invite the Pope to Seguin - on the pretense that the Pope was in favor of the apparitions! The bishop did not even know it was an apparition his own committee had rejected. And that’s a similar situation with the latest - Anne the Prophetess. It’s disgusting. When the whole thing falls apart at Medj. I’m sure people will be very shocked to see how they’ve been manipulated - how the whole Church has been taken for a ride.

Elaine T. - you are right. If you have ever heard these presentations they open with a explanation of “obedience”. They claim to be in obedience to the Church and that the Church will only be able to rule when the messages are complete. Anyone, including bishops, who oppose this are in effect “jumping the gun.” It’s a lie.

And further, I have witnessed a theologian take false messages to Rome, come back to Seguin, Tx, go to the bishops with his Vatican credentials and convince our Bishop to invite the Pope to Seguin to celebrate an apparition that he had already had a commission review (negative result). The Bishop was under the impression that Pope John Paul II wanted this invitation. It was a total scam.

The theologian was Dr. Mark Miravalle, btw. He told me personally that the Archbishop’s commission didn’t matter as long as it wasn’t condemned. Then he told us that it was all because of the special case of Medj. So we all thought we were following the process - we were being obdient.

And the false messages were from apparition called Our Lady of the Graces of Vision by a woman named Sara Carlin. They were presented to JPII in April 1997. So this nonsense has been going on for decades - it’s no wonder people are confused - as I said above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeBo5LpF1vs&feature=related

I was hoping to find something substantial regarding the title in question (Rabbi Cahn’s The Harbinger), but was disappointed to find nothing more than supposition and “argument from ignorance” lacking even the most rudimentary knowledge of the book’s subject matter.  While it may feed the conceit of some to scoff at “prophetic analysis,” it is worthy of note that prophecy is the foremost proof of God’s hand in man’s affairs and that it is given for our enlightenment, edification, and nourishment of faith. Watching prophecy unfold is a compelling reinforcement of God’s plan for the world, where as Christianity without the clout of prophecy amounts to little more than a (generally pleasant) social club.

David, I too was drawn to this article when I googled Catholic response to The Harbinger by Rabbi Cohn. Someone had sent me the link to his discussion of his theory which he presents in his book.Sadly I was disappointed to find nothing more than a mere mention of the book in this blog and nothing in the comment section but arguments about the reality of Medjugorje and Garabaldi.

Well, whether a bishop approves, or not,
what does Mary approve? 
She approves that her children “repent” or “be punished.”
Now, more than ever, we should be vigilent.
Prophesies are coming true, from Bayside, that all thought were “crazy”.
Ultimately, it’s to ready our souls not only for trials in this life,
but to pray fervently and thus prepare for our everlasting life.

Fake prophets and their messages have been around since OT times and in the NT and throughout history. St Paul recommends the discernment of spirits and St Ignatius of Loyola structured the process in his Spiritual Exercises. There are several false ones, and the official Church has the authority and the specialised means of discerning them- the local bishop has first call to discern as he did in rejecting Ms Gallagher. Common sense is involved, if the “seer” is pitting Mary against the hierarchy, Latin Trent Mass text against the Council texts’ approval, or anyone demands we are doomed for not consecrating Russia to Mary, or saying floods and earthquakes and fires are punishing homosexuality or abortion,  tune them out. Above all JESUS died ONCE FOR ALL to forgive all sin-past, present and future, so neeither He nor we need refer to His Mother to keep Him from destroying the Earth. That is the key to understanding the forgiveness of Sin, the Sin of the World, and all sins.

lonethinker….sodom and gommorrah were destroyed by God for the sin of homosexuality by fire from the sky….St. Faustina says in her DIARY book that the angels of God control the weather to inflict punishment for sin if God so wishes….our society lives in worst times than the flood and if God doesn’t do something to the world for these abominations against His commandments..MAYBE GOD WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO THE PEOPLE OF SODOM AND GOMMORRAH FOR WHAT HE DID TO THEM, according to your thinking…

@LoneThinker,
Common sense? Spiritual sense is probably more needed. Common sense might lead people to believe that God would never send floods, fires, earthquakes and destruction on a nation, yet there it is right there in the Bible - Sodom & Gomorrah as one example.

If a seer is pitting Mary against hierarchy, why can that not mean the hierarchy is in need of reprimanding? Practically ALL the biblical prophets had some type of run-in with the hierarchy after being requested to pass on messages of rebuke. And in the case of Medjugorje, Mary’s rebuke through the seers seemed to be corroborated by the Vatican, e.g. in the case of the two monks Vego and Prusina who were censured by the bishop and later exonerated by the Vatican, just as Mary had said.

There is also some confusion in your theology of salvation. Christ’s death re-opened the door to heaven, rebuilt the bridge back to God, which Adam’s sin destroyed. It doesn’t cover for every future sin to the extent that we can essentially sin freely with no consequence. I’m quite sure you didn’t mean that. The existence of the sacrament of reconciliation should indicate to you that we are every day in danger of losing our souls, despite Christ’s sacrifice. However, thanks to Christ’s sacrifice, we are able to be forgiven and renewed each time we avail ourselves of this sacrament.

rw; You missed my gist, and the last absolute TRUTH about Calvary. It is all forgiven. Are we to believe that the Angels whip up a tsunami to kill millions because the people on land sinned; or that the poor of the sub-Saharan desert are punished with drought, and they and their children and cattle die because they are sinners? Or that the mid-western USA States are in drought now because of sin? JESUS told us be prefect Mt and Lk same concept because God sends rain on the just and unjust alike. No bad weather because of sin. That nonsense is left-over from OT threats, which God never fully carried out, He allowed some to escape so as to preserve the Remnant of believers, Jesus died for ALL. WE make the choice to agree with HIS free gift, Grace, or reject it. OUR sins, not God’s wrath punish our bodes with AIDS, alcohol poisining and bankrupt banls because of greed.

lonethinker…the suffering of people whether from illness or natural disaster is all for the glory of God….the suffering those people endure is probably for their eternal salvation, or the salvation of others..“no bad weather because of sin..that nonsense is left over from OT times”..sorry lonethinker I’ll believe what I read in St. Faustinas Diary about the weather…when Jesus healed people He told them ” GO AND SIN NO MORE”...WHY WOULD HE SAY THAT???...is it that sin causes illness???..my final post lonethinker is that I truly believe our entire world is going to be visited sooner than later by the HAND OF GOD’S JUSTICE, for thw sins of abortion, same-sex depravity, and the homosexual priest abuse scandal…........have a good day lonethinker and God Bless…in the end going back and forth on issues really does no one any good, we will all get it correct at the end of our lives…........

If I may add my final word to you, following yours rw is; 1. I made no comment about the connection between suffering and Grace, because it is Catholic Christian Bible teaching that it is. 2. No connection directly between my (illness, misfortune) - recall JESUS answer to the apostles re the blind man, was it his parents’ or his sin. JESUS refused to make the connection. 3 I trust and believe the Bible, and Jesus words of consecration and on the Cross and “be perfect, rain to just and unjust, over St Faustina’s (supposed/real) Diary entry any old day.

Many visionaries (Fatima, Faustina, devotion to the Sacred Heart)
were at one time unapproved,
even ridiculed by the Church authorities,
before being investigated and approved.
Bayside apparitions need to be investigated.

“Bishop Mugavero of the Brooklyn diocese, which conveyed a negative judgment on the apparitions of Our Lady and Our Lord to Veronica Lueken at Bayside.

  The diocesan pronouncement does not correspond to the truth and is therefore null and void, for the following reasons:

Veronica Lueken and the Shrine workers were never approached and interviewed in the context of a proper Church investigation, not even by telephone.

Bishop Mugavero of the Brooklyn diocese, which conveyed a negative judgment on the apparitions of Our Lady and Our Lord to Veronica Lueken at Bayside. “
http://www.tldm.org/misc/faq.htm

Actually, my mother used to get the newslettes from Bayside and I have to say that just reading them…...pretty obvious they are not of God. Kind of in the same league as fake Nacedah.. Not to say something might have taken place at some time, but obviously co-opted by the evil one.
Forget the prophesies of everyone.  Give your life to God. Live the beatitudes, pray, pray, pray and rely on the Divine Providence of God. The one surety is that we are all going to die.  Be ready for it. Don’t worry about when or how it comes, just be ready for your own personal judgement day.

JN; there is a huge difference between initial skepticism of revelations and the thorough examination later by proper tribunals and experts. I was afraid to write yesterday, but I was sent a tape once of the Bayside “revelations” which blasted the early reforms of the Second Vat. Council and other material which assured me it was a fake message. Anytime Mary seems to oppose the official activity of the Pope and his worldwide Church be assured that Mary’s messenger is not genuine.