It’s been a day, and some more details have become clear about the killing of Osama bin Laden. I thought I’d add a few more thoughts—some of which I didn’t have time to blog yesterday and some of which are in response to what various commenters have posted.
First, was bin Laden chronically stupid or what?
You are the most wanted man in the world, with the world’s most powerful nation on your tail. Okay, so maybe living in a cave isn’t so fun, especially if you have health conditions like Osama was reported to have. And then there are all those pesky predator drones trying to shoot at you out in the hills, so getting under some kind of permanent cover in a more populated area makes sense, but—come on!—the Abbottabad compound? That place positively screams “This is bin Laden’s hiding place!”
It’s built on a hill (strategic defense position), when originally built in 2005 it wasn’t closely surrounded (i.e., was on the edge of town), it’s eight times larger than other local properties, it’s worth a million dollars (in a third-world country where dollars go a looooong way), it has concrete walls 10-18 feet high, the walls are topped with barbed wire, there are two security gates, a seven foot privacy wall around the third floor of the main building, no windows face the road, there are other aerially visible security features and—unlike a mansion built by any other hyper-security conscious rich person in the world—it has no Internet or even telephone service.
Lots of defenses but no way to call for help? Huh? What kind of paranoid millionaire builds himself a pad like that?
Oh, and the locals report the women who live there speak Arabic, and the inhabitants go out of their way to behave weird by never interacting with anybody and by burning all of their trash instead of using the local garbage collection service. And it’s legal owner has no obvious financial means that would allow him to build such an estate.
According to MSNBC,
This home, U.S. intelligence analysts concluded, was “custom built to hide someone of significance.”
That’s kind of appallingly obvious, isn’t it!
Bin Laden’s efforts to remain concealed remind one of the Monty Python sketch, “How Not To Be Seen,” (which is somewhat rude, so be warned).
Yes, having a big macho superfortress with no phone or Internet service will make you a little hard to get at. It probably also strokes your master terrorist-sized ego to strut around in such a place. But it will also make it totally obvious where you are.
It makes it so obvious, in fact, that I wonder why we didn’t identify this place a long time ago—anytime between when it was build in 2005 and now.
I know, I know. It’s easy to connect dots in hindsight. Also, Pakistan isn’t a developed nation and doesn’t have information that’s as easily accessible as here. Further, it’s an uncooperative nation that—while it sometimes helps us, also sometimes deliberately frustrates our anti-terrorism efforts.
I would have thought that our intelligence services would periodically go over our presumably micro-detailed satellite maps of Pakistan and Afghanistan looking for signs of fortresses and then doing a process of elimination.
Such a process of elimination, in this case, might have involved sending in a small, insect-sized robotic probe (like this one, only better [I assume our intelligence services have better ones]) in the dead of night with a button-sized camera (like cell phones have) or a grain-of-rice-sized microphone to see who’s in there—or at least to plant surveillance devices.
For that matter, why not simply, in the dead of night, just lob into the compound a surveillance device disguised as a rock or something and wait to see what it picks up?
But, maybe our technology isn’t quite that good yet (which I find a little hard to believe), or could be too easily detected by anti-bugging equipment bin Laden might have on site, or otherwise might cause him to scamper before we had all our pieces in place.
Or maybe we just gave him too much credit and assumed he wouldn’t do something as stupid as hole up in a monster obvious superfortress but rather choose to stay in a more low-key and harder-to-detect safehouse.
In any event, our guys did finally spot him. He’s dead now, and thus kudos to all of them! I don’t want to be unfair. Hindsight is golden, and all’s well that ends well. Especially terrorist masterminds who get ended. Much obliged, folks! My hat’s off to you! Best of luck with all the nifty new intel you got raiding the superfortress computers and other materials! I hope it all lets you bust up the network good!
The fact that Osama bin Laden was hiding out so close to the Pakistani capital (30 miles as the crow flies; 80 by road), in an upscale, heavily military town which also houses a military academy that is the Pak equivalent of West Point, raises uncomfortable questions about just what the Paks knew about his location.
Monday night I heard an interview with the Pakistani ambassador to the U.S. in which he insisted that they knew nothing of this and that it was just an intelligence blunder not unlike those the U.S. has experienced.
Maybe.
Color me profoundly skeptical.
Given the Pakistani intelligence services’ ties to the Taliban, I strongly suspect that at least some individuals knew where bin Laden was.
Frankly, that’s of secondary consideration at this point. What our leaders need to do is use the obvious discomfort this creates for the Pakistani government to pressure them into helping us find Osama bin Laden’s #2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and other key al-Qa’eda operatives.
We can let them have their face-saving, “We are your staunch allies against terrorism” bit as long as they get their posteriors in gear and help us root out the remaining terrorist leaders and camps as a show of their “good faith” in the wake of this monumental embarrassment.
If they don’t, and if we get solid evidence that responsible elements in their government did know about bin Laden’s whereabouts then our leaders should deal with them most harshly.
To put it bluntly: Knowingly sheltering Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants from the U.S. is an act of war. It was an act of war for the Taliban back in 2001 (that’s why we went in there, remember?), and it’s an act of war now.
If there are any legal niceties that need to be covered on that score then the appropriate parties in our government should quote Darth Sidious and simply declare, “I will make it so.”
So much for a secular analysis of the situation. Now let’s look at things from a theological perspective.
It has emerged in the last 24 hours that the Navy SEALS (you go, guys!) who were sent on this mission (Operation Geronimo) were instructed that it was a capture-or-kill operation and that bin Laden was given the chance to surrender, which he chose not to avail himself of. It also is reported that the government didn’t seriously expect him to surrender.
The fact that the possibility of surrender was offered to him enhances the moral justifiability of the action, but it was not strictly necessary. If it had been determined that bin Laden must be executed for national security reasons given his involvement in the mass murder of civilians then this would be a defensible application of the death penalty. The precise legal form that such a determination might take (e.g., trial in absentia) could be debated—as could the conclusion of the determination. The point is simply that a surrender offer was not an absolute moral necessity. The fact that they gave it, though, lends additional moral credence to the action.
It is also being reported that the woman who was used or who served as a human shield during the operation may have been one of Osama bin Laden’s wives (he is reported to have at least four, in keeping with what Muslim law permits). If so then he died after trying to hide behind one of his wives.
If that’s so then the U.S. should seriously consider releasing footage of the event (which we apparently possess, or at least may possess) as a way of illustrating to the jihadi world what a wimp and a failure this man was in the end.
(Incidentally, according to reports the government is also looking to release images of the corpse. Those will be gross, but releasing them is probably a good idea since images—even in an age of Photoshop—carry a visceral weight that reports of DNA verification don’t. Bloody photographs would also serve to underscore the humiliating fate that awaits those who attack innocent civilians.)
Now to what strikes me as the central conundrum that many have been puzzling over in the Catholic blogosphere: How to square the impulse to see bin Laden’s body molderin’ in the grave with the impulse to forgive and pray for his soul.
In countless comboxes across the Catholic Internet, people have given voice to both impulses, some openly rejoicing in bin Laden’s death, others expressing regret, and many expressing both sentiments but unsure of how to square them.
Some have pointed to passages in the Old Testament that speak of God as a warrior, a mighty man who slays the enemies of Israel. They have pointed to passages, such as in Esther, where the Jewish people celebrate the destruction of Haman, the enemy of their people. And there are other passages that one could cite as well.
Others have pointed to Old Testament passages that tell us not to rejoice at the fall of our enemies or that God does not rejoice in the death of the wicked but rather wills their repentance. And then there are the “love your enemies” and similar passages in the New Testament.
Many have said they’ve been uncertain how to react—whether to join the celebration at the death of this black hearted villain or feel . . . something else, something less celebratory.
The reality is that all of these perspectives share elements of truth.
Without going into the details of particular passages (at least in this post), several general remarks can be made:
1) We shouldn’t be too quick to embrace the more martial, seemingly bloodthirsty passages of the Old Testament. The Christian faith holds that God led his people, over time, into a progressively more pure understanding of his will. We already see the seeds of universal love displayed in Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, and it comes into full bloom in the New Testament.
2) Neither should we dismiss the Old Testament passages as simply irrelevant. As St. Paul tells us, the Old Testament was written for our example. And while it may represent an earlier phase of God’s revelation to his people that does not fully express all the dimensions of his will, there is truth to be found in even its darkest passages.
3) An important key to understanding the relationship between the two is recognizing that many Old Testament passages speak to the question of justice (or nature), while many in the New Testament speak to mercy (or grace). Both are important aspects of God’s will. Thus we can recognize that it is preferable for the wicked to repent but that if they do not then it is also God’s will that they suffer the consequences of their actions.
4) Even when the wicked have repented, and even when we forgive them for what they have done, this does not mean that there are no consequences from past actions. Our own repentance does not simply obliterate any consequences of our prior misdeeds. Internally—from motives of penance—and externally—from motives of justice for the community—a sinner may still experience punishment and other negative consequences. Thus even a repentant Osama bin Laden would not simply be let off scott free.
5) Based on the way God designed human nature, it is natural to experience positive emotion when the news is received that justice has been done and that safety has been enhanced. It is thus natural to welcome—on an emotional level—the news that Osama bin Laden has paid the ultimate temporal price for his crimes and that he personally can no longer harm us.
6) The love that we are to show to our enemies is not principally a movement of the emotions but an act of the will: An intention to do what we can—even if it is only to wish or to pray—for him and the fate of his soul.
7) The ultimate, objective assessment of the situation is something that only God can make. It likely involves all of the elements previously named: We may rejoice in the things that we may legitimately rejoice in, and we must will the good to our enemies that the Christian ethic requires of us. This means willing the salvation of all if they repent, and it means willing that they repent, but it does not mean willing their salvation in spite of their failure to repent. In the last case, it means willing that they experience what they have chosen for themselves, and what God respects their choice to be as being an eternal rejection of him.
8) Because the foregoing is too complex for us to embrace at any single moment, the human mind in its present state naturally attends to different aspects of it at different moments. At some points we are pulled more toward rejoicing over the things we should rejoice over (e.g., based on justice and nature). At other moments we are pulled toward the things we should will (e.g., based on mercy and grace). This is not unexpected. It is to be foreseen. God does not expect us to hold the whole, complex reality of the situation in our minds at once—either in our feelings or our wills—and so it is perfectly acceptable to alternate between these.
This is why the book of Ecclesiastes states:
There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens: . . .
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
In other words, one can in one moment say, “Yahoo! Osama bin Laden is dead!” and in the next moment say, “Lord, have mercy on his soul!”
What do you think?
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The Pakis knew he was there. I hope The POTUS gives them to July 4th, to return the 20 Billion we have given them and once it is received, send an Air Strike against one of gtheir Military Bldgs and get the heck out of tha rat hole.
Taqiyya and Kitman. That is why we dont get the truth from Islam. Islam remains unchanged since the 7th Century yet nobody in this or the previous White House had the first clue.
Quit Afghanistan and Iraq and come home.
Most of these terrorists are essentially, kids on goats riding around with a grenade in their underoos.
Keep Islam bottled-up in their current hell-holes and cease allMuslim immigration into America. It is because of Islam that I have some dope feeling-up my privates so I can get on an airplane to go from point A to point B in America.
If there were no Muslims here, I would not be subjected to that Unconstitutional indignity
You said it Jimmy!
Jimmy, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your putting ALL this in writing. I will re-read it too, as I have someone I pray for who abused me deeply, and I need to understand my feelings, all the while still praying for this individuals salvation. thanks again.
Well put. There is a place and time for celebrating, not the death per se but the many, many goods that it brings, as well as celebrating justice, and also a time and place for praying for mercy and realizing that it’s always a tragedy for a wicked person to die, no matter what good comes from it.
As I watched the events unfold on TV, I was conflicted as to how I should feel. I was glad that Bin Laden was now harmless, but the celebrating in the streets seemed “unbecoming.”
While discussing this, a friend offered that if Bid Laden had only been captured, and not killed, people would still be celebrating in the streets, because it is the justice served for the innocents that had died.
Her statement made a lot of sense to me, and I think Jimmy’s #3 statement sums up the “big picture” for me very well.
It is said that what a great sword-fighter fears most is not a greater sword-fighter, but a terrible one, because the terrible one will, in doing things that make no apparent sense, surprise his opponent.
How many intelligence analysts looked at pictures of that place and said something along the lines of “there’s just NO WAY he could be THAT OBVIOUS…it must be a trick, or a decoy”?
Well said, Jimmy! One has to believe that Osama was reasonably intelligent, to accomplish some of the things he did, so his fortress building impulse may be better explained (as you hinted) by his colossal ego, coupled with the possibility ...that he felt somewhat safe in doing so because he *knew* had the cooperation of locals and some well-placed Paki officials. If the compound were not such a slam-dunk obvious hidey-hole for Evil Overlords, it would be easier to imagine that the Paki govt. knew nothing about it. As it is, well… as you say, “color me skeptical”.
Perhaps Bin Laden should have availed himself of this wel-known and widely disseminated advice;
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
I dunno, but I’m sort of uncomfortable with the notion of applying the death penalty to untried foreigners in foreign countries.
Now, killed as a combatant in a war, terrible as it is, still doesn’t cause me such…discomfiture.
Says who he didn’t have communication capabilities? As an engineer in the wireless industry, I can say that the last thing I’d want would be any wired communication. He might very well have a wireless Internet connection with any cell-phone network or even a satellite Internet.
Additionally, sheltering Osama couldn’t possibly be an act of war since congress has not declared any war, as the Constitution requires.
Finally, you give too much credit to the abilities of intelligence services, which have failed its duties innumerable times. With so little human intelligence on the ground, the compound could belong to any Taliban or Pakistani political hot-shot. I wouldn’t doubt that the Pakistani government was just waiting for the best moment to profit from tipping the US about Osama.
File under “Sin Makes You Stupid”.
In other words, one can in one moment say, “Yahoo! Osama bin Laden is dead!” and in the next moment say, “Lord, have mercy on his soul!”
Yep.
In Proverbs 14:22, “Do not those who plot evil go astray? But those who plan what is good find love and faithfulness.” Do we not find true peace and love if we choose to love God with our whole heart, mind and soul, and love our neighbors in God’s grace with compassion, care, mercy and forgiveness. Otherwise, do we not find more stress in our life as we hide from the truth? In Matthew 7:15, 19-20, Jesus said while preaching to the crowd, “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly they are ferocious wolves… Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”
It’s hard for me to understand those who are rejoicing over the death of bin Laden, maybe because I myself did not particularly feel fear in association with his name. The world has become so increasingly violent since those events a decade ago that I am as afraid of my own countrymen as of anyone else. All I feel at the news of one more death is….sad.
A wise old man once told me that you should always say something good about the dead. Well here goes….Bin Laden is dead and that is good!
God Bless America and the Navy Seals!
I think I might be a little more reflective before I became too glib on this subject. The Jewish sites I peruse have a more objective take on the subject because they will admit that the cause of all our Mid-East problems are focused on Saudi Arabia (Obama was born and raised there) and present day Gaza/West Bank. Because the rest of the world watches Al Jazeera while we effectively are censored from watching it (some can find it on their computers), others have a very clear understanding of why the Arabs/Muslims despise the West. Even Hillary Clinton strongly recommended Al Jazeera English be allowed a channel in the U.S. as it presents news for grown-ups.
I wonder if his computer password was “password”, “123”, or “Osama”—that would definitely confirm the stupidity argument.
When all you have in your life is hatred, worry about forty virgins, teaching children to blow themselves up, not having a loving God, teaching your pilots to crash, killing your fellow believers; you can’t help but see that he really didn’t have much going for him. As the eloquent Bubba Gump once said, “Stupid does as stupid is.”
To Die or to Kill for Christ Is Not Criminal, but Glorious
About the lawfulness of war against the pagans, Saint Bernard, the Mellifluous Doctor, has these glowing words:
But in truth the knights of Christ fight the battles of their Lord with all tranquillity of conscience, fearing neither sin by the death of their enemies nor the danger of their own death, because death inflicted or suffered for Christ’s sake bears no trace of crime and often brings the merit of glory. In the former case, there is a gain for Christ; in the latter, Christ is gained, Who doubtless both willingly accepts the death of an enemy for punishment and more willingly offers Himself to the soldier for consolation.
The knight of Christ, I say, kills with tranquil conscience and dies even more tranquilly. In dying he benefits himself, in killing he benefits Christ. For he bears not a sword without cause; he is the minister of God for the punishment of evil and the exaltation of good. When he kills a malefactor, it is not homicide but, so to say, “malecide”; and he is clearly considered the avenger of Christ in the case of those who do evil, and the defender of Christians. Moreover, when he himself is killed, it is understood that he has not perished, but that he has arrived in eternal glory. The death, therefore, that he inflicts is again for Christ; the death that he receives is his own gain.
The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because Christ is glorified; in the death of a Christian, the liberality of the king is revealed, because the soldier is taken away to be rewarded. Furthermore, the just man will rejoice over the one when he has seen the punishment.
Concerning the other, a man will say: “If indeed there be fruit to the just: there is indeed a God that judgeth them on the earth” (Ps. 57:12). Not that the pagans should be slain if by any other means they can be impeded from persecuting and oppressing the faithful. But presently it is better that they be killed so that, in this way, the just men do not bend to the iniquity of their hands, for on the contrary, certainly the sinners’ rod will be upon the lot of the just.
Saint Bernard, the Mellifluous Doctor
De laude novae militiae, in Migne, Patrologia Latina, vol. 182, col. 924.
St. Bernard. “Rejoice, brave warrior, if you live and conquer in the Lord, but rejoice still more and give thanks if you die and go to join the Lord. This life can be fruitful and victory is glorious, yet a holy death for righteousness is worth more. Certainly ‘blessed are they who die in the Lord’ but how much more so are those who die for Him”
Pope Blessed Urban II calls for war against Islam
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html
I am sure everyone knows St Bernard is a Doctor of The Church
Here is a man with a fairly sound reputation as a Theologian, St Thomas Aquinas; another Doctor of The Church. And here he is on war with all of that evil killing and whatnot
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3040.htm
VC:
You seem to think this thread is overrun with pacifists you must argue to the mat. You also seem to think that the US is a sovereign Christian nation on a Holy Crusade against Islam and not a secular post-Christian semi-paganized culture taking vengeance for an act of war perpetrated against us by a 21st century terrorist organization rooted in jihadist theory that is the fruit of Islamic extremism in collision with colonial and Cold War politics of which Bernard could not conceive.
Not that the general principle of bravery and self-sacrifice for Christ can’t be applied to a modern soldier. But that’s rather point isn’t it? Is *anybody* on this thread saying or suggesting that all war is evil? You seem to be arguing with somebody who isn’t even here.
excellent article Jimmy!
An earlier commenter noted that she had feared her fellow countrymen more than she had OBL.
This brought to mind the words of Our Lord: “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body but after that can do no more.
I shall show you whom to fear. Be afraid of the one who after killing has the power to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, be afraid of that one.” (Luke 12:4-5)
Which brings to mind the words attributed to Saint Bernadette Soubirous, who, when asked whether there was anything she feared, replied, “Yes. A bad Catholic.”
We can begin by embracing the eternal truth of the nature / Genesis of sin: Sin defined and described in the book of proverbs16:1” Through desire a man , having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom * that is , the man , of selfish and wayward impulses rushes headlong into sin” The guilt and shame of Bin Laden leads him to hide the guilt and shame ( compare with The first Biblical transgression : Genesis 3:7) and the trial and judgment which he must face was ( compare with the first The first Biblucl Transgression : Geneis 3:8-113,22-24) Biblical revelation , revealed The Character of the lost ( Psalm 11:17 , cross reference Mark 16:15-16) the doctrine of Eschatology
Jesus , left us an an example of his prayers , one of them was manifested in Calvary , where it was offered , the lesson we should learn : That we must pray even for our buttered enemies( Luke 23:34; Cross reference Matthew 5:44)
The catechism of the catholic church : The gravity of Sin : Mortal and venial sin # 1854-1864)
Precept # 1861, as I quote” Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom , as is live itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace , that is ,of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness ,it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of He’ll, for our freedom has the Power to make choices for ever, with no turning back .However ,although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense , we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God”
Biblucal Law revealed in Crimibal offense ,the individual Responsibility : The criminal himself, and no other , must answer for his crime ( Deuteronony 24:16)
The catechism of the catholic church gives the practical read on in reference to one of the precepts of the Our Fathet : in reference to “as we forgive those who tresspass against us # 2842-2846( transfiguring the disciple by configuring him to his master) as I pointed out earlier , Jesus offered prayer in Calvary.
We leave the Ladt judgment to our Heavenly Father: ket us meditate on the parable ( The emote and beam) the occasion of this parable : when reproving the Pharisees, the lesson of this parable—- judge ourselves instead of presuming to judge others( Luke 6:37-43)
We must always to God’s will ( The commandments )
Peace to all
Dear Friends,
I’m very sorry, but not surprised, that the decision was made to kill Bin Laden rather than try to capture him alive. I’m reading now that he was unarmed when military personnel broke into the room he was in and shot him to death. So this killing was not a case of self-defense. I’ve read that, from the beginning, the intention of this raid was to kill, not capture, Bin Laden. I believe its true purpose was to silence him. This method (killing someone) is very effective, and has been used by many powers throughout human history. Now he will never be brought to trial. It’s very disappointing to see this action is being celebrated by so many in this culture as a ‘positive’ thing. Real justice would have been better served by bringing the man to a legitimate authority for trial. This raid is, to my mind, another step in the wrong direction our country has been travelling for some time now, especially since the invasion of Iraq. ‘Waterboarding’ (a form of torture), trials by military ‘tribunals’, assasination squads, unjustified invasions and interventions in the affairs of other countries - it’s sad to see that our country has come to this. It remains to be seen what kind of retaliation Bin Laden’s supporters have in mind for what happened to their leader. I’m not condoning terrorism or the attack on the Twin Towers - but the real motive for the attack has never, I feel, been made clear to the American people. Bin Laden might have shed much light on that. I fear that now more attacks will follow. Violence begets more, usually worse, violence. When you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind.
It took the greatest nation in the world 10 YEARS to find the guy ... Stupid?
You try hiding from Navy Seals for 10 yeas. Good luck buddy.
I’m glad we caught him. I don’t “celebrate” his death but he needed to be caught and he wasn’t surrendering. You capture him alive if possible, if not you take him out ... just like someone threatening your wife and daughter.
You bring up interesting points but man you write too much. Be more concise
Thank you, L, for the constructive criticism. Check out this link - are you sure Bin Laden wasn’t surrendering? No shots fired from his compound - he was already in custody when he was shot. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383106/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-Wife-watched-die-White-House-reveals-WASNT-armed.html
Jimmy wrote, “Now to what strikes me as the central conundrum that many have been puzzling over in the Catholic blogosphere: How to square the impulse to see bin Laden’s body molderin’ in the grave with the impulse to forgive and pray for his soul.”
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Cradle’s Reply:
Why is it most Catholics, including church leaders, use the Bible as a form of spell check? If Catholics want to have their OWN rules, and their OWN religion, why search the Scriptures for verses to substantiate what they want done? Why not just toss the Bible out, and merely ask the Pope what he thinks, then leave it at that? If the Pope says, “It’s good.” Then it’s good. If the Pope says, “It’s bad.” Then it’s bad. There is no need to go further. No need to find an obscure Bible verse. God obeys the Pope. Catholics should just obey the Pope. No need to even think in the Catholic religion.
For Catholics to scour the Old Testament for their rules is just silly. Orthodox Jews still live in the Old Testament. Even Reformed Jews have moved on, putting God on the shelf. Why can’t Catholics just officially do that too? Are Catholics trying to be *Orthodox Jews*? Like now, when they are trying to find the politically correct way to feel about the death of Osama, they go to the Old Testament?
Sincere New Testament Christians look to the writings of Paul and Peter, James, John, etc., to find how to think about Osama’s death, and about his life. We know that while none of us can “judge” anyone (meaning dooming their souls to Hell, or claiming anyone is indeed in Heaven), we can “discern” what they were like, based on the “fruit” of their lives.
Having seen how God worked in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, I would surmise Osama was a man with a hardened heart, God having turned him over to himself. While none of us are PERSONALLY to take revenge on anyone, a government CAN for public interest, take matters into its own hands. The US did that. It was not “revenge” for the US government to have done what it did. It’s not a matter of the whole US government saying “let’s forgive him.” After his death, based on the OT and the NT, it’s not likely God will have mercy on Osama’s soul. Let’s get real.
Osama was using a woman as a human shield. In order for him to be in Heaven with the Father and Jesus, Osama would have suddenly had to have repented for his life choices, and turned to Jesus (“I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, and NO ONE comes to the Father, but by Me.”). It’s not impossible for the Holy Spirit. But again, let’s get real.
It’s unlikely Osama’s soul was saved, under the Blood of Jesus, gaining access to the Father, having Eternal Life in Heaven. It’s more likely that he has life forever in Hell, based on the Deposit of Faith left to Christians by the apostles.
But getting Catholics to read the New Testament LETTERS is like getting Orthodox Jews to read them. Next to impossible. So instead of knowing anything, as Jimmy wrote, Catholics continue to “speculate”.
........agree…......AMEN !!!!!!
Michael S.
While all and sundry of the I-am-more-Christ-like-that-you’ers (IAMCLTY) have been chastising others for reacting with happiness to the news that the monster was kilt, not one of of the IAMCLTY even anticipated that another would discover the words of a Saint, and a Doctor of the Church to boot, that ought to cause them to pipe-down. But his words won’t cause them to pipe-down. There is never any shame, or apologies, from the self-righteous IAMCLTY Gang.
In any event, after seeing men who reacted perfectly consistent with Tradition being castigated and scolded by The IAMCLTY Gang, it truly is a delight to read his words; the words of St. Bernard:
“The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because Christ is glorified; in the death of a Christian, the liberality of the king is revealed, because the soldier is taken away to be rewarded. Furthermore, the just man will rejoice over the one when he has seen the punishment.”
And while the Traditionalist Mackerel-Snappers enjoy having had set the record right, they will watch with delight as the Tradition- Sappers hastily grab their What-St Bernard-Really-Meant Shovels and begin trying to cover-up the truth with their rhetorical dirt.
Oh yes, this will be fun to watch..
It will be the antithesis of “adding insult to injury;” it is will be adding delight to documentation
Jimmy,
Excellent! Your 8 remarks/observations are exceptionally clear and should be a reminder for so many situations we encounter in our lives.
Re: Was Bin Laden Stupid?
Perhaps not. Mr. UBL helped lead a successful insurgency in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union. (We called him a “freedom fighter” back then.) He then organized a successful strike (right under the noses of our intelligence and defense services) against the USA. Next Mr. UBL escaped from from Afghanistan to Pakistan. Finally he successfully defeated the best efforts of the world’s last super power and its allies to kill him for almost 10-years. Now he is a martyr inspiring millions. No. Not stupid.
God bless
Richard W Comerford
Dear Mr Comerford. Yesterday you were telling all of us that he was an old frail man in bad health and today you are telling us he is not a stupid man and that he eluded us for ten years and that he is now an inspirational martyr. And yesterday you told us there was no proof he was killed.
I do like the way you are effusive in praise of him and his ability and the way you try and gin-up sympathy for him while at the same time you say that the raid that resulted in his death was neither intelligent or heroic.
Until I began to read your commentary I never knew that for you to consider others as faithful christians, they had to lionise an evil terrorist and attack American Heroes. What an interesting idea.
I can;t wait to read what you will have to say tomorrow :)
Re: UBL
During the Cold War, when we called a much younger Mr. Bin Laden a “freedom fighter”, he was already in very poor health. The USA provided him medical care to include (reportedly) dialysis. Murdering Mr. Bin Laden in cold blood, in front of his family in his home located in a friendly, allied country is not an act of heroism but of gross stupidity. We have turned a washed up, and quite possibly dying, has been into a martyr for 1.5 billion Muslims. Meanwhile we still have a US Paratrooper held captive by the Taliban in Afghanistan. Has anyone considered what will happen to our soldier?
God bless
Richard W Comerford
Dear Mr Comerford. Just so you know it, I said on the other Bin Laden thread I am done with you. You just keep on trying to generate sympathy for the devil and keep running-down American heroes because that is what real Christians do
Re: American Heroes
American heroes do not murder old men and women in cold blood in their bedrooms.
God Bless
Richard W Comerford
st. troll is da house!
First rule of smart comboxers: Don’t Feed the Energy Creature. Resist the temptation to reply to st. troll.
While the writer is attempting to be thoughtful here, it appears he’s kind of missed, well, the whole point of having a belief in God. Just because the U.S. and its allies judged bin Laden “evil” does not mean God did—indeed, many jihadists appear to sincerely believe they are defending holiness against U.S. wickedness. On that note, neither is it right for Islamists to judge the West “evil.” Both sides have killed thousands of civilians who never had anything to do with the reasons for this war, namely the Muslim world’s clashing with Western interventionists. I have a heretical idea—maybe God has already forgiven BOTH sides for assuming they are fighting for the good, and is patiently waiting for us to tire of this war and finally sit down and work out a peaceful way of living together that doesn’t involve civilians being murdered all the time. Let’s not forget, killing civilians has been government policy since the Old Testament—to judge bin Laden OR the U.S. as “evil” as so many do belies the possibility that BOTH sides have committed sins that have led us to this terrible war. I pray God forgives ALL of us, not just bin Laden.
Re: “However the Catholic church had it inquisition in operation for around 800 years and killed million throughout Europe.”
We were taught that it was not a million but 90-million during the reign of Queen Isabel alone. Where did you get your one million figure?
God bless
Richard W Comerford
“First rule of smart comboxers: Don’t Feed the Energy Creature. Resist the temptation to reply to st. troll.”
Mega Dittoes to brother, Shea.
“Both sides have killed thousands of civilians who never had anything to do with the reasons for this war, namely the Muslim world’s clashing with Western interventionists. “
Dear Guilty Bystander. Long , Long, Long, Long, Long before America was even discovered, Islam was killing and raping and enslaving Christians. Is is what they do. Read any history by, say, Bat Ye’Or, about what happened to the pacific Christian-Catholic Communities that we read about in the New Testament. These savages wiped-out those cities/communities solely because they were Christian. Period.
Islam remains unchanged after more than thirteen centuries and men like Bin Laden, far from hijacking Islam, are its most dutiful and faithful followers who have actualised the evil doctrines and practices as taught by The Koran, The various Siras, and the Hadiths.
Islam considers Mahomet, a bigamist, and a pedophile, and a brigand, and a slayer of Jews the perfect man to be imitated by all Muslims.
Serge Trifkovic memorably identified Mahomet, he is part John Gotti, part David Koresh.
At the risk of feeding the troll, it’s important to set the record straight involving UBL’s role in the mujahadeen’s war against the Soviets. The foreign fighters were considered troublesome and uncooperative by the Afghan mujahadeen. The US shared the same opinion, and provided little to no material support to the foreigners, including UBL, who was a minor, self promoting figure among the Arab fighters. His legend was largely due to one battle he took part in and the financial resources he had. He had no real battlefield credentials.
Any decent history of the Soviet-Afghan war will reveal as much. The US supported Afghan fighters against the Soviets, not Arabs. To say the US supported UBL is pure Internet hearsay.
As to the forever secret motivations of the silenced UBL, I think he made clear his thoughts on more than one occasion. It was not colonial or economic grievances, it was a desire to return to a fictional medieval caliphate.
The last Caliph left Egypt of a train after the fall of the Ottoman Empire but Islam thinks it has the duty to resurrect it. One of these decades America will wake-up to the fact that Islam is in a religious war against America (and others).
But we Americans are doped-up by the narcotic of PC MC.
BTW, have you had an Osama Cocktail? It is delicious, two shots and a splash
What I think I posted here: http://globalexclaimer.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/celebrating-are-you-serious/
Re: The Dignity of the HUman Being
“BTW, have you had an Osama Cocktail? It is delicious, two shots and a splash”
We are made in the image and likeness of God. We possess an immortal soul. We are heirs of heaven. Christ died for each one of us on the cross. Comments such as the one above are not just childish, and an assault on human dignity of the individual as well as a violation of the 5th Commandment; but are an insult to the passion and death of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Cheer leading for murder brings out the worst in all of us.
God bless
Richard W Comerford
Hey, is Bin Laden’s house on the market? It is in a nice area with a lot of pines and mountains close-by.
Re: On Catholic Commentary
“Hey, is Bin Laden’s house on the market? It is in a nice area with a lot of pines and mountains close-by.”
And what will a Muslim think of Catholicism if he visits this site maintained by the National Catholic Reporter and EWTN and he reads the above comment and others like it? Christ died on the Cross for Mr. Bin Laden. To mock Mr. Bin Laden’s death is to mock Christ’s suffering and passion.
God bless
Richard W Comerford
Re: Mortal Sin
If we die with mortal sin on our soul we cannot go to heaven. However God loves us so much that he sent His only begotten Son to die a most terrible death for us on the Cross. God wants all of us to spend eternity with Him in Heaven - even New York Yankees. All we have to do is to cooperate with His grace.
God bless
Richard W Comerford
Despite the naysayers,your exposition was brilliant and much hoped for.Keep up the good work!
@Vermont Crank, Looks to me like a typical big New England house, white, and like you said, stuck in the hills with lots of pine trees. On second thought, don’t “typical” white rambling New England rural houses feature clapboards and dark shutters? They usually don’t come with high walls and there’s only one wife per house. What “walls” they do have are most often rock or wooden fences sans barbed wire.
Osama played the West and his hosts like a violin, just as he knew he could get away with doing because he knew our tactical weaknesses. We weren’t looking for him (as he knew we’d give him beaucoup credit for having more “stealth skills” ... if you’ll pardon my clumsy phraseology ... in terms of already having built superbunkers, etc.) I thought he would’ve turned several mountains or hills into private Gilbraltars or Cheyenne Mountain(s) with his engineering background.
Perhaps more tactically brilliant than that, would’ve been for him to completely alter his looks, his dossier, CV, etc. and taken up either French or Spanish and for the ultimate deep under cover hiding arrangement, he should’ve had a tenured professor’s job awaiting him in some cushy New England liberal arts college in one of the region’s toney collegetowns. (How he would’ve gotten the tenure obviously said more about his well-cultivated and developed network of useful idiots.)He wouldn’t be teaching anything to do with the Middle East; perhaps Southwestern Hispanic Literature, and he’d lock himself into the most liberal Catholic parish around or a very genteel and of course, “open-minded, i.e. progressive” WASP, UCC or academically dominated local Episcopal parish.
He’d drive an American-made mini-van, his wife (yeah, what a bummer for ol’ Osama, it’d have to be only one) would also have to be fluent in Spanish as well as the kids and they’d all be involved in soccer, scouting, etc. Needless to say, he wouldn’t go near a Mosque and might even be snootily hostile to the local Muslims, so as to give him all the more cover and protect them from any recriminations for having any associations with himself.
If this sounds a bit like the “good ol’ days of Uncle Joe’s” methodology of recruitment and cover, well, if the method worked once, even Osama might’ve found it worth trying again. The tweedy academic act would’ve provided the best cover for his [real] DAY JOB, which wasn’t run on our schedule.
Osama stayed true to his version of bringing folks back to that “old time religion” of Mohammed. And like a lot of people, who when then get a recharging of their previous religious beliefs, only with enough fervor to lead others to think they’ve retaken religion on ‘roids, bin Laden wasn’t going to compromise a bit; thus anchoring himself so close to his (hellish) ideal of “heaven on earth,” an Islamic Valhalla in Afghanistan.
Except for one thing; when it came to at least protecting his “fallen hero” or choice to “die as a martyr” he left behind some very incriminating evidence for a lot of kids in al Qaeda/Taliban-led Madrassas in both Afghanistan and Pakistan to say, “Say it ain’t so, Osama!” Hmmm, now what could that “incriminating evidence” have been? Perhaps a stash of very verboten viewing material by both Islamic and most Western and of course, all Christian standards?
Dear Steven. Who will the new Emanuel Goldstein be?
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