One of the things I have always liked about our Church is, it doesn’t talk “down” to us poor parishoners sitting in the pews.

Father,
Our parish indeed took the changes in stride. There were a few mangled “and with your spirit"s but by and large we have responded well. I do think the “my fault, my fault, my most grievous fault” was a heart-breaking and valuable change. I am including a link to a very sweet “meme” that made me smile concerning “getting it right…”
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/35t0d3/
Best regards,
Jen Das

An interesting view: “nothing in the liturgy should draw attention to itself, either because it is awful or because it is excellent.”  And sad, I think.  At one time the church aspired to honor the glory of God with excellence—the finest of human creations in architecture, painting, sculpture, craft, and music for the Mass.

“Nothing in the liturgy should draw attention to itself - either because it is awful or because it is excellent.”

Perhaps what Fr. Longnecker means is no act in the Liturgy should place greater emphasis on the persons singing or serving than on the Persons being praised, honored, and adored.  When that happens, then the Liturgy is truly excellent.  That doesn’t mean the musicians, servers, lectors, etc… shouldn’t strive to perform their ministries excellently.

I have attend four catholic churches in the area where I live for , Mass and sacramental services. The Sunday choirs and music instruments and vocalist have become a major distraction. They perform as in a concert hall not in the House of our Lord whether awful or excellent. I find that only weekday Mass sooth the soul - Sunday Mass and celebratory events enrage me and I find no peace or comfort in the performance. . Where has sacred music gone? Out the stain glass windows!

I was reared in a different language and could never understand why the English translation seemed strange. When the new translation came, I immediately felt at home. God bless those who worked on it.

In the annuals of Episcopal malfeasance, the change in the
English missal is but a misdemeanor. For us that cannot sing, I would like to
thank whoever came up with the change in the Gloria. The monotone is most
helpful.

I agree with Mary Jefferies that the lightly-attended weekday Mass is where I find peace and the connection with Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist that I miss on Sundays, when the unabashed choir director screeches out the high notes into a microphone turned to the max, drowning out the rest of the small choir. I fear we will never abandon our Gather hymnal because each is dedicated to a deceased parishioner.

Good article and reflection. Also, I would like to see the Agnus Dei, Sanctus, Kyrie, etc. utilized with some more regularity. Really for several reasons. 1) They are a part of our historical tradition. 2) They are easy to master and offer an opportunity to have common participation when multi-cutural assemblies are gathered while traveling or at Shrines, etc., and 3) The Vatican II documents specifically called for them to be used with some frequency for the very reasons just mentioned. Not suggesting they should be used at every Mass, but it is a shame when they are used to see how many people who are faithful Catholics do not even have those word mastered to the point of being able to share the moment. Oops! Forgot to mention, they are beautiful and add to the Liturgical Rhythm of the occasion. Just my thoughts. Peace :-)

As I read the above article, I was thinking that priests don’t attend Mass.  I find many priests continuing to “ad lib” during the Mass and so directing attention to themselves.  It irritates me enough to pass up Communion.  When will the past 50 years, its so obvious direction and results, register?

Hi, Warren. You are, of course, accurate when you allude to the fact that some priests are still “at it.” That doesn’t cause me to lose faith though. In some cases it has been a distraction to he point of being the basis of my changing where I go to Mass. You alluded to the fact that it irritated you enough to make you not receive the Eucharist at Mass. Important, I think, to remember that the Eucharist, while it does take place in the context of a community/assembly celebration, is first and foremost a communion between the communicant and the Lord. For that reason, I would never pass up communion because of someone else’s questionable antics. Remember ecclesiology 101: If the minister’s (priest in this case)faculties are valid, the sacrament is therefore valid. Turning our backs on the Lord because of aesthetics, although understandable on a purely human level, isn’t the solution. Write to your Bishop in a positive way asking that he give consideration to providing catechesis to his diocesan clergy on what his expectations are for the celebration of the Liturgy. Having said all of that, I also believe what the Church suggests, that the Holy Spirit somehow guides her in all she does. The warts are ours, but the positive things that occur are the manifestation of this involvement . . . or so I think. So, don’t lose heart. The HS is still alive and well in the midst of any confusion of the moment. :-)

What new translation?  The translation we are using now is a reworking of the translation used before the boobies got out of the hatch and we said things that were really unworthy of the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  We are still cursed by PC “gender neutral” phraseology.  I would love to hear “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to *men* of good will.”  But I will count my blessings that we have come as far as we have.  Are we led by people who are so lazy that or so lacking in education that they could not give a definition of “consubstantial” or “incarnate,” if asked?  Now if only we could do something about the horrible, horrible “music” with which we continue to assault the Good Lord’s ear!

“Write to your Bishop in a positive way asking that he give consideration to providing catechesis to his diocesan clergy on what his expectations are for the celebration of the Liturgy.”

Writing to the bishop in my diocese doesn’t do any good.  He always asks me to discuss with the priest.

This new liturgy is proof positive that church leadership has failed to engage with those in the pew.  The laity did not ask for any change nor the additional parish expense for revised lectionaries.  We do know that Catholic publishing houses have reaped a cash cow of new revenue over this change.  What we in the pew think is really irrelevant to clergy.  If the clergy really want to spiritually “feed” people they should stop with all the incessant and repetitional sing-song occurring throughout the Mass.  Clergy has abdicated their proper role and turned the Mass over to the newly-elite Music Directors who are now cherographing the entire Mass around music.  This has produced two consequences.  First, church music and those involved have created job security and paid employment for themselves and their close allies including salaried nepotism at parish expense.  (If parishioners knew how much money was being paid to these people they would be shocked).  Most parishioners are not aware the musicians are not volunteering to sing or play for the glory and and honor of the Savior.  Secondly, overloading of music at Mass creates a built-in laziness for priests to not devote much time at all to expounding on the gospel.  A homily of seven minutes produces little reflection and thought in how to make proper application of God’s holy word to daily life.  Seems not every change instituted by the church actually brings glory, praise and honor to the King.  Sometimes it only gives the appearance.

TG? Perhaps up the ladder . . . Archbishop of your archdiocese? No luck there, write to the Scared Congregation on the Divine Liturgy in Rome. Maybe it gets attention and maybe not, but who knows if you don’t plant the seed? In either case, one is drawn to the Church, I think, because he/she meets the Lord there. If the Priest or his superiors place additional challenges in our way by doing what they do or failing to do what WE THINK they ought to do, we have to demonstrate some humility and just allow for the fact that it may be us who are not connected. The old prayer comes to mind: God, Grant me the Serenity to Accept the things I cannot change, the Courage to change the things I can, and the WISDOM to know the difference. In a spiritual growth vein, these sorts of challenges that disrupt our inner peace can be a golden opportunity to talk to the Lord in prayer about it. Like the little old ladies (and the monks) always say: “Offer it Up.”  :-)

Am I missing something? Part of the topic is “New Translation of the Roman Missal…” Translation from which language to which language? I suppose that this Roman Missal is not a book that made its debut just yesterday, last year or five years ago? If there were words in the ‘old language’  or the ‘new language’ of this Roman Missal somebody did not understand, what stopped that person from making efforts to understand them, by looking them up or asking people who knew better? I just resolve this unnecessary fretting to some people just being brazenly lazy or outrightly mischievous. But if I understand fully, are those so-called ‘cryptic languages’ being talked about not the English language that is supposed to be the native language or Mother Tongue of we people in the United States? When we involve ourselves in this type of unnecessary furore over some words in the native language, how do we rationalize the fact that people who speak English as a second language have no problems whatsoever, one way or the other,  in adopting the Roman Missal in whatever form of formal, working or informal English it is written? I think native speakers of English have become so very lazy that they fuss over any modification of the language! Maybe, the Roman Missal should be made in Farsi, Hausa or Hindi and introduced into America as the ‘only authentic’ version! Then we shall see how the Americans would react. Phew! Sometimes we make a point out of what should not be a point, and a point out of what is already a point!

I am a Protestant convert of six years.  I am a Catholic because the disintegrating chaos of the Protestant faiths showed me the barque of Luther was leaking badly.  I grabbed the life preserver from the barque of St. Peter, read the history of the Church and realized that Jesus gifted His Church with a permanent structure held together with the mortar of Authority.  The “grave concerns” you refer to are precisely those things which kept me from drowning.  Thank God for Authority.  I willingly submit to Jesus through His Church and the successor of St. Peter.  A church of ecumenical equality does not interest me.  I would rather swim alone than get into that doomed ship.

“What interests me most is that both laypeople and clergy don’t have strong opinions either way. This means the new translation is a success.”

It seems equally valid to conclude from this that most people don’t really listen to what’s being said. Ask them at the and of mass what the collect, preface, or the communion prayer were about (or the readings for that matter) and you’ll get blank stares. Let’s face it - most laypeople and clergy didn’t have strong opinions either way about the old translation, either, but that didn’t make it a “roaring success.”

“Nothing in the liturgy should draw attention to itself.”
True as far as it goes, but it doesn’t tell the whole story. Certainly, sloppy servers and self-absorbed singers are inexcusable. But this doesn’t mean that we should be content with a liturgy that is merely “serviceable, accessible and ordinary.” God isn’t any of these things, and we should strive for a liturgy as extraordinarily beautiful, excellent, and transcendent as possible. This is not to draw attention to these things and away from God, but precisely to point to his beauty, excellence and transcendence.

“Advocates praised the crisp, formal and more ornate liturgical style of the language…”  It seems to me that “crisp” and “more ornate” are opposites.  “Crisp” implies succinct and to the point; “ornate” implies flowery and with unnecessary surplusage.  Having said that, an unexpected benefit of the new translation is that it’s forced me to be more conscious during Mass.

Andy, you wrote, “Having said that, an unexpected benefit of the new translation is that it’s forced me to be more conscious during Mass.”

Surely, you don’t mean that?  We *WORSHIP* God at Mass, and He wants us to worship Him with our hearts, our minds and our souls.  We are not to be on auto-pilot or tuning out, during any part of the Mass.

I used to sing more, and participate more when we had the Novos Ordo Mass, but now, I’ve since turned my attention to HEARING the Word, learning and allowing the Gospel to affect my daily life more.  I do miss the worship—like the old Gloria that we sung, my most favorite.  But now, I take copious notes all through the Mass.

Yes, I even have my own missal, where I underline verses that ‘speak to me’, and I take notes on the homilies too.  Rarely are they of much value.  But at least I can talk about what was said during the reflection, and during the week, I can even expound on what was said by myself.  In our parish, they do not have the readings in the missals, they only have the verses.  It was too difficult to bring my Bible and skip all over to find the proper verses at Mass, even when I’d marked them in advance.  So now, I just have my own missal, with the readings and I take notes in that.  I’m still engaged, but in a different way.
No auto-pilot or tuning out, for me.

A few weeks ago, a woman asked to see my missal because she wanted to read for herself what was the first reading, from Dueteronomy, Chapter 6, I think.  The infamous Shema given by Moses to Israel.

There is one thing in the noisy, disco-like music during the Holy Mass that jars me.  All the Saints we have ready about who were privileged to hear the Angels’ Choirs in Heaven, never heard noisy, clashing musical cacophy of the Dance Halls. Rather, it is always beautify melodical singing which soothes and draws one closer to God. But what we have come up with, copying the Evangelicals and the Pentecostals, is the “Prophets of Baal Praise and Worship” which to me is totally alien to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of my childhood these 74 years on.

We need to be well aware that in our Catholic Churches, God the Creator, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “Permanent Residents”. Our Creator is worthy of somber, solemn and collected style of Worship. After all, we come to our Catholic Churches and Adoration Chapels to worship, adore, “talk"and “listen” to our Creator.  He does not need to be shouted at or bombarded with Disco-like madness in the guise of Praise and Worship

BTW, The Words of the Prayer of Consecration DOES AND MUST be those Jesus spoke at the Last Supper.  And He distinctly stated “.....which will be poured out for MANY for the forgiveness of sins….” He NEVER SAID “FOR ALL”.  Let us remain authentic to this Greatest Mystery of Love and Mercy - the Apex of the Salvation Mystery - THE HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST which is the Centre, of our Catholic Faith and from which all the other Sacraments emanate from, and draw their Divinity from.  In any case, the Celebrating Priest at that moment is “Persona Christi”.  And he must speak the Words of Christ.

Mary@42, yes I agree with you totally that this disco-like music must be stopped! It is a serious distraction and it departs from the very essence of Celestial Music the Catholic Church has been known for. Listen to those eternal church music and you’d immediately rate the disco music as the introduction of babble to the church.

Mary@42, you don’t have to be that dogmatic in those words of Consecration. It depends on the version of the Holy Bible these words were taken. For example in ‘Jerusalem Bible’, it says, inter alia, “...this is the cup of my blood….it will be shed for you and for ALL MEN so that sins may be forgiven….” Jesus Christ died for ALL MEN (men here stands for the entire human race and has nothing to do with gender). Therefore it is logical that Jesus Blood was shed for ALL MEN! This is my honest take on this matter.

New values and new perspectives in the New Mass translates to a New Religion. 

See:  “Work of Human Hands” by Rev. Anthony Cekada

The translation ‘for many’ does not line up with the message of universal salvation at the Assisi Meetings,  the incorporation of ecumenism and defense of religious liberty. 
If ALL are saved and there is no longer a missionary spirit to convert, than there is no need for the Mass, there is no need for the Sacraments, there is no need for priests……  So why do we need the Church?

@Joe:  Seems there is a great distortion in the meaning of the prayers being said.  The Bishops should actually clarify the point.  Christ did die that “all” men would be saved.  The reality is that NOT “all” are or will be saved.  We know from the gospel and from all of Scripture there is no universal salvation in spite of what some have heard or teach.  I once heard a nun tell the RCIA group that everyone is going to Heaven.  That’s a red flag right there of false teaching yet (because of her title/position), RCIA people and even pew sitting Catholics would believe this error.  Relative to the earth’s population from Adam forward, it is likely very few have, are and will be saved.  The parable of sower and the seed should be taken to heart along with even those in church who are lukewarm.  These are warnings from Jesus.  Is Christ only part of your life or is He life itself?

The Church is always in crisis.

The church has different spiritualities, which can include both praise and worship as well as traditional forms of music. One is not better than the other. The key is that both need to stand with the church.

Chi, Mary is not being dogmatic, she’s just pointing out the fact that the Latin words are “pro multis,” and the straight forward translation of those words is “for many.” The Jerusalem Bible imports something else into the matter when it has “all men.” Why that was done can be discussed, but it is irrelevant to the fact that “all men” is simply not a translation of the words in the Latin editio typica of the Missale Romanum.

Posted by Christian on Tuesday, Dec 4, 2012 4:05 PM (EDT):The Church is always in crisis.

Christian - this is an internal crises creating an implosion/a desire to destroy like no other time in the history of the Catholic Church.

Casting Crowns, you said, “The reality is that NOT “all” are or will be saved.”
  You are contradicting the Assisi Meetings, Casting Crowns.  It teaches from these interfaith practices explicitly that ALL are saved at the beginning of their existence.  See “Theological Journey to the Prayer Meeting of Religions in Assisi” by Fr. Johannes Dörmann.

Joe,

The solution is prayer and more prayer, not attacking others. Liberals want the church to change, conservatives want liberals to change. Nobody wants to change themselves. And priests need to address, the dangers of receiving communion in a state of mortal sin. It hardens ones heart, and you slowly start losing the sense of sin. This becomes widespread and it affects the whole church, at least in the West this a reason for the decline of the church.

We need to pray for our priests and for God to change us too. Great things can happen when people turn to God in repentance and prayer.

@Casting Crowns, your statement seems to suggest that God has deliberately created some people to go to Hell! No, my dear, Our God is definitely NOT like that! Jesus had said, ‘in My Father’s House, there are many mansions there.’ And Christ had never said that ONLY some would be saved. In fact at the Agony in the Garden, Jesus was appalled by the vision that many reprobates were going to Hell! And that informed His prayer that if be the Will of His Father let the forthcoming cup pass Him by. In other words Jesus Christ complained that many people would still go to Hell, in spite of His forthcoming sacrifice to save the entire humanity from sin and hell. Before Jesus ascended to Heaven He charged His Apostles to take His Message of Salvation to ALL ends of the earth! So Jesus wanted EVERYBODY to be saved, no exception. That was God’s plan. Anybody who subsequently goes to Hell is his/her own choice, since the human being has this power of choice and power of will. Therefore Heaven is for EVERYONE but each person has to work for his/her own salvation and asking God for help towards this end. Jesus said we should fight our way through the strait and narrow way. The unfortunate thing for a human being who finds himself in hell is that he blames himself incessantly over that faulty act that landed him in hell and laments grievously each time he sees his own mansion in Heaven which had been reserved for him from the beginning of time!

Thank you, Sir Louis. This 74-year old Cradle Catholic was raised up with the Weekday and Sunday Missals with Latin and English Translation.The “pro multis,” is what was and MUST REMAIN in the Prayers of Consecration.

That is not being dogmatic. It is simply correcting an error which we know not where it came from to be found in our Lectionary, Weekday and Sunday Missals. We thank God for listening to the Holy Spirit and restoring the “Words” of Jesus Christ at the Last Supper.

@Joe, I would submit to you that if what you say is true regarding the Assisi meetings then their viewpoint runs totally contrary to the gospel.  Jesus spoke far more of Hell and the dangers thereof than He ever spoke of Heaven.  You would be wise to trust in what Jesus said rather than those at Assisi.

@Chi:  “[And Christ had never said that ONLY some would be saved.”]  And He never said everyone is saved either.  [“Anybody who subsequently goes to Hell is his/her own choice, since the human being has this power of choice.”]  Agreed.  So what’s the problem?  [“Therefore Heaven is for EVERYONE but each person has to work for his/her own salvation and asking God for help towards this end.”]  The idea you can “earn” or merit your way to Heaven is false.  Chi, when do you know if you have done enough work for your salvation?  To the contrary, it is Christ who did the work FOR YOU on the cross.  Any positives in life you perform in compassion or mercy towards others is your gratitude to Christ.  Your works do not, however, earn your way into Heaven.

Casting Crowns - Religious Liberty and interfaith/ecumenical services are contrary to the Gospel and the Magisterial Teachings of the Catholic Church.  The new theology practiced in the modern church is contrary to the Church Fathers who reinforce the texts of Holy Scripture by St. Paul, Rom. 1:20; 2:14 and Wis. 13:1-9. 

        Also Vatican I stated:  “If anyone should have said that the One True God, Our Creator and Our Lord, cannot be known with certitude by the things which have been made, by the natural light of human reason, let him be anathema.”
  Casting Crowns, I’ve revealed some of the miserable ‘facts’ about Assisi Meetings.  Where is your offended outcry???

Mary@42 stated:  “We thank God for listening to the Holy Spirit and restoring the “Words” of Jesus Christ at the Last Supper.”

  Don’t you question who promulgated the error or did the Holy Spirit make a mistake?

Posted by savvy on Wednesday, Dec 5, 2012 12:51 PM (EDT):Joe,

The solution is prayer and more prayer,”

      Facts are very stubborn and uncomfortable things, Savvy.  Silence is not an option when the First Commandment is being violated.  Sacrileges happen because good men do nothing to combat them.  I hope what I have posted disturbs you.  That’s the point!

  Why aren’t priests giving sermons about receiving with mortal sin?  Sin no longer exists, savvy?  It’s all situationally and pastorally accommodated and justified, savvy.  Even Baptism no longer is to wipe away original sin.  BTW, they are not priests they are presbyters and presiders according to the newrite of ordination.  The “people of God” are the new priesthood according to Vatican II.

Joe,

I would have to disagree, since V2 documents tell us otherwise. You might want to read the entire document on the priesthood. I am not saying that you cannot combat these things, but prayer opens up the hearts of people. You will be talking to a brick wall, until conversion of hearts take place.

@Joe:  If I have misunderstood your point I do apologize.  The idea by some Catholic leaders who teach “Everyone is going to Heaven” or “Everyone is saved” or “We all worship the same God” is totally and absolutely contrary to the gospel and to the writings of Paul.  Jesus said “No man cometh unto the Father but by me.”  That’s as plain as it gets.  Praying with Islamics and other godless clerics we should avoid.  Some progressives in Rome have now decided to foist and invent a new gospel intended to be more styish and “inclusive.”  I’ve become tired of Catholic leaders in Rome who have replaced the gospel with the ever changing Catechism.  The Catechism has become their Bible.  The saddest part is that ordinary pew Catholics listen to these guys and accept whatever they are selling as holy and true.  Jesus warned us to be on guard against false teachers.  He meant those inside the church.

Casting Crowns,

The Catechism does not say everyone is going to heaven or that everyone is going to hell either. Please read these things, in order to avoid extremes on both sides.

savvy, Universal salvation is in the porous ambiguous language of Vatican II documents and the Assisi Meetings are the actual living expression of it. 
  BTW,The general editor of the CCC is Christoph Cardinal Schönborn of Vienna.  He has twice bestowed a Pontifical decoration to pro abortion politicians. This special award was enacted by the Order of St. Gregory and is the fourth highest award for merits regarding the Roman-Catholic Church. 
        The award was instituted by Pope Gregory XVI in 1831.  It is directly granted by the Pope and is one of the highest decorations that is conferred on lay people.  It is intended for “gentlemen of proven loyalty to the Holy See” who “are deemed worthy to be honoured by a public expression of esteem on the part of the Holy See”.

http://en.kreuz.net/bookentry.2912.html

http://catholiccitizens.org/press/pressview.asp?c=47112

  Von Schönborn is also known for his balloon masses and calls the Buddhist, Dalai Lama, Holiness.  In spite of his infidelities, he remains as ecclesiastical advisor of Ave Maria University, Naples, Florida.  GO FIGURE!!

Facts are stubborn things.

Joe,

Personal sins aside, I think you have misunderstood the concept of universal salvation.  So are you saying that a pro-abortion Catholic who confesses that Jesus is lord, will go to heaven, but not a non-Christian who let’s say is opposed to what he/she sees as murder?

Salvation through faith alone was a Protestant concept. It taught that we cannot believe unless God willed it, so we could not choose to be righteous, unless God first made us righteous.

Catholicism is somewhere in the middle. Yes, faith is a free gift of God, but we can still choose. A atheist who pursues truth and goodness will find it, a Christian who does not will not.

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

So Christ died to save all is objectively true, i.e salvation is universal.

Invincible ignorance was a Catholic teaching before V2.

Savvy,  Universal salvation has nothing to do with the actions, rejections or acceptances of the individual.  Universal salvation as taught in the new theology is given to each person at the moment of existence.

  Christ’s mandate to the Apostles to go, and to preach, teach and baptize is no longer acceptable teaching.  Man has figured a more tolerant/loving/easier way than obeying the dreaded Ten Commandments.  It’s much TOO difficult to follow God’s ways.  The Assisi Meetings foster that Buddhists, Hindus, animists, Muslims, Jews, atheists, agnostics, protestants ………need not convert nor be baptized .  Eternal salvation is assured of all.  Facts are more stranger and shocking than fiction.  These meetings are not hidden.  Why is this all a surprise?  Haven’t you participated in an ecumenical service?  Pontiffs have condemned universal salvation and interfaith service.  But now it appears that the Holy Spirit just got things wrong before Vatican II Council.

The Webmaster, I can see that heretics have infiltrated this site. We have to be careful the way some comments are admitted into this site. Heretical comments could scandalize people who are not very strong in the Faith and could even confuse others. Yes, freedom of speech is allowed but definitely NOT heresy. Our Catholic Faith MUST be protected at all times and all her faithful MUST be fed the correct materials about Christianity and, especially, the Catholic version of this Faith.

I came across this Translation of a letter from PP Benedict XVI to the German Bishops explaining the catechesis around the new translation of “pro multis” and I got a lot from it, For those of you who might be interested, You can find it here:

http://incaelo.wordpress.com/translations/10761-2/

Savvy - Make no mistake.  I am a Cathollc. 
  The new way is that Christ’s mandate to the Apostles to go, and to preach, teach and baptize is no longer acceptable teaching.  Man has figured a more tolerant/loving/easier way than obeying the Ten Commandments.  It’s much TOO difficult to follow God’s ways.  The Assisi Meetings foster that Buddhists, Hindus, animists, Muslims, Jews, atheists, agnostics, protestants ………need not convert nor be baptized .  Eternal salvation is assured of all from the first moment of their life.  Facts are more stranger and shocking than fiction.  These meetings are not hidden.  Why is this all a surprise?  Haven’t you participated in an ecumenical service?

Chi - Why aren’t you specific in what you consider heretical?

Why have “Catholics” acquiesced to the novus ordo missae designed by protestants?  How do priests explain the different words in the consecration of the novus ordo missae and indult mass?

KK, thanx very much for posting the link to the English translation of Pope Benedict’s letter explaining the translation of “pro multis.” It is extremely important because so deeply clarifying. Thank you.

We would have to be totally oblivious to the fact the Catholic Church has been infected by the influence of modernists and heretics. Their poison was in the works years before Vatican II. That is why Pope Pius X wrote the Oath against Modernism. Vatican II was just the vehicle the modernists needed to have approval for their heterodoxy. As a result the true Catholic Faith has been reduced to a remnant.

I have read with interest all the commentary on Heaven and Hell, and who gets there and who doesn’t…this is my very simple Catholic teaching:
” Oh my God I AM heartily sorry for having offended Thee and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell but most of all because I have offended Thee my God who art all good and deserving of all my love and I firmly resolve, with the help of they grace to confess my sins to do penance and amend my life. Amen

r

Clinton R.  You and I are on the same page.  Some say it’s too late for those who remain in the conciliar church.  What is your position on this?

William Keating - You still need a priest to absolve the sins.  Without the Sacrament of Penance and the Sacrament of the Eucharist and the Sacrament of Extreme Unction, one puts their soul at a great risk.

Joe,

You are more Catholic than the Pope. The CDF as already proclaimed that seeing the council as a rupture with the past is wrong, by both traditionalists and liberals.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/11/30/prefect-of-the-cdf-says-seeing-vatican-ii-as-a-rupture-is-heresy/

“Eternal salvation is assured of all from the first moment of their life.”

Please tell me where this is found in the catechism or in church documents. I am not interested in what other people say about the documents, but what the documents actually mean.

@Joe,

Yes sir, we are in agreement vis a vis the current state of the near total abandonment of Catholic orthdoxy today. I returned to the Catholic Church a few years ago at age 33 via the RCIA program. While joyous of being in the barque of St. Peter, I have come to realize how much the Church Militant has been reduced to a remnant. Heterodoxy and heresy rule the day. Just look at the news today Notre Dame has given in to the homosexuals! How the founders of Notre Dame must mourn deeply at the apostasy at this once glorious Catholic university. It is beyond sad the state of what passes for Catholicism these days. I do attend a NO Church, as I have no traditional parish near where I live. I pray for the restoration of true Catholicism, free of the Protestant envy and false ecumenism that is forced down our throats. However, the Lord did wonder aloud if He would find faith on earth upon His return. Many, many prayers must be said for the Church. We are in dire times, indeed. +JMJ+

Clinton R, Are you celebrating the novus ordo missae with the People of God?

savvy on Thursday, Dec 6, 2012 9:32 PM  

Eternal salvation is not a Catholic principle.  It is the principle of the Prayer Meetings of Religions in Assisi.  See also Lumen Gentium para. 1 and Gaudium et Spes para. 22. 

Savvy - Than you’ll need to explain how the practices of ‘religious liberty’, and interfaith meetings; the mandating of sex education in parochial schools, and the new order of the mass (fabricated by 6 protestants) are not a rupture and disconnect from the past?  BTW, these have all been Supremely condemned by Pontiffs.  Now explain why you are turning your back on Sacred Tradition and infallible teachings?

Joe,

Are you opposed to V2?

Joe,

Word of advice.  Please study what the church “actually” teaches. Not what you think it does. The Liberals engage in the same tactics. I am tired of arguing with you both.

Hey, hey, my Good People of God, is this surely a Catholic Website?? I am truly dismayed.  Let us now pause and ponder what we are arguing about. My 74 years in the Catholic Faith has taught me that, yes, God created me without my consent. But I know He cannot save me without my co-operation., to paraphrase Jesus Himself not doing the “.....Will of My Father in Heaven”.

Let us not misuse the Vatican II Documents to distort the Catholic Teachings on Faith and Morals.  Young Blessed John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI were, in fact, active and full Members of the Theological Technical Team in the Council and were fully involved in writing all the Council Documents.  Both have consistently pointed out the distortions and errors - and the erroneous teachings therefrom - stressing the true interpretations and the Spirit of all the Documents. Those who are serious about their Faith have already read these documents.  The Council was not convened to bring new Doctrines or Teachings about the Catholic Faith but to revitalize renewed vigour in Evangelization.

I also humbly state that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is faithful to the Scriptures and has always been and all Catholics are bound to live by it.  It is the True “Instruction Manual” on the Catholic Faith as taught first by Jesus Christ and, after His Resurrection and return to His Father, by the Catholic Church these 2,000+ which He Founded and entrusted toSt. Peter and his Successors.  He remains Her Spiritual Head and guides Her through the Holy Spirit until the End of Time. The Catechism of the Catholic Church gives us the Totality of the Salvation Mystery which subsists in the Catholic Church based on the Scriptures,the Tradition, the Theology of Dogma, Writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church and the Magisterium. I would advise you, my beloved Catholics to start renewing and re-dedicating yourselves to the Faith of our Fathers by following daily the Readings from the CCC during this Year of Faith.  It is not too late to catch up - we are only on Day 57 today.

Now, I hear this feel-good notion stated very often that Jesus died and paid for all our Sins, past, present and future and all I need to do to earn Heaven is believe in Him. And since obeying God’s Commandments cannot be attained by any human person anyway, I can proceed to break all the Ten Commandments and commit every kind of Sin under the sun every single day of my life and I shall still land in Heaven upon death, because Jesus paid for all my sins.

From those holding these beliefs, I kindly await to hear their honest explanation of what Jesus meant in Matthew 25:31-45.  Or what was the purpose of His appearing to His Apostles, after His Resurrection, and what He meant in John 20:22-23.

Another popular belief is that God is so Merciful He can never send me to Hell.  Others want me to believe there is no Hell at all.

The latest confirmation that Hell is REAL was recently revealed by Jesus to a simple Polish Nun, Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska, (1st August, 1905 – 5th October, 1938). She has recorded in her Diary – Divine Mercy in My Soul, No.741 the vision of Hell.  She states inter alia: “…..I Sister Faustina by the order of God have visited the abysses of Hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify of its existence……most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is Hell….” . 

And yes, God is Merciful.  Mercy is the Greatest Attribute of God.  This, again Jesus clearly reveals to us from this Diary in Nos.1485 - 1489.  Here we read how God pleads with the dying sinful soul to turn to Him and plead for His Mercy. And in Diary No.1486 - “Conversation of the Merciful God to a Despairing Soul” we read : “.....then the Mercy of God begins to exert itself, and, without any co-operation from the soul, God grants it Final Grace. If this, too, is spurned, God will leave the soul in this self-chosen disposition for Eternity…..This Grace emerges from the merciful Heart of Jesus and gives the soul a special light by means of which the soul begins to understand God’s effort; but conversion depends on its own will….the soul knows that this, for her, is Final Grace, and should it show even a flicker of good will, the Mercy of God will accomplish the rest…..”. Now should the soul spurn this final good will, God will only have to say : “Thy Will be Done”.

I agree in this Culture, which Pope Benedict XVI calls the “Dictatorship of Relativism” these calavier beliefs are very popular but I pray that the Holy Spirit will touch the souls of those who have “thrown the Teachings of the Catholic Church to the winds” and continue to call themselves “Catholics”.  Catholics, they certainly are not, though prudency and Christ’s Charity, prevails upon me not to call them heretics and schismatics.  All I can say to them is that their Salvation is in peril.

@Joe,

Yes, I do attend the novus ordo. I do often wonder of the validity of the new Mass. I pray that since God is faithful while man is not, the bread and wine offered do become His Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity. It is a sad state of affairs that Sacraments often are called into question because of the modernist revision of the ancient rites. Are you able to attend the TLM? Is it a SSPX Mass? FSSP?

Clinton R - Please read, “Work of Human Hands” by Rev. Anthony Cekada.  There is a lot on the internet about the fabrication of the novus ordo missae by protestants who obviously hated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  Ecumenism is the major focus of the “People of God” celebrating themselves led by presbyters in the new order mass.  The changed consecration is an illegitimate consecration.  Furthermore the presider is mocking the mass at a wooden table breaking the First Commandment.  There are so many sacrileges in the protestanized version of the mass.  It is everything Martin Luther proposed.  He must be joyful in his grave.  Your presence shows acceptance.  Yes, I once participated in all the changes and one day by the grace of God only, I was led to an offering of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by a legitimate priest.  I never returned to the shenanigans of the new religion of the conciliar church.  I’m still horrified that I stayed so long in it.  I have daily access to the true sacraments of the Catholic Church and at a great sacrifice.

Mary@42 – You’ve proven your conciliar position.  There are many doctrines of the faith compromised with the Vatican II Council contained in the 16 documents plus the protestanized version of a mass.
!. Would you please tell us where before Vatican II the Catholic Church ever taught that human beings have a moral right to “religious liberty”? 
2.  Would you state where Councils and Popes before Vatican II Council encouraged ecumenical/interfaith services and taught universal salvation?
In other words, how does conciliarism connect to Sacred Tradition?

@Mary@42, thank you very much for your moderating role in this growing uncontrollable discussion that has included many heretical statements. I remember I have earlier drawn attention to these heretical statements. One of those heretical statements was the statement credited to some contributors to wit: that since Jesus Christ had died for us, salvation had been assured to the effect that we could go ahead to commit all mortal sins under the sun and this would NOT matter since salvation had been assured by Christ’s death! This is a terrible statement of heresy that is bound to lead many astray, especially in the modern days of unbridled propensity for all sorts immoral and unconscionable acts that run wild like loose cannons! For the avoidance of doubt, my dear brothers and sisters in Chist, Jesus Christ died to save ALL of humankind from sin and Hell. What this means is that the prohibition of humankind from Heaven, as a result of the sins of our First Parents, had been removed by Christ’s death on the cross. Prior to Jesus death on the cross,, no amount of good works by anybody would lead him/her to Heaven. But, following Christ’s death, our making Heaven would be dependent on Faith in God and the saving power of Jesus Christ, and an individual’s good works. These two conditions are CONJUNCTIVE. In other words, they are complementary. St. James said that faith without good works is dead! And this was hammered in many instances in the Bible. Consider the story of the Last Judgement, as told by Jesus Christ Himself; consider the reply given to the man who asked Jesus what to do to be saved, and Christ pointed out to him the need to be charitable to God and to his fellow human being. And St. Paul did not miss out on this in his First Letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 13. In conclusion, faith in the saving power of Jesus Christ and our individual good works complement each other in taking us to Heaven. If we lack in any of these components, we lack in both and CANNOT make Heaven!

@Joe,

I am so filled with grief at the current state of the Catholic Church. I am glad to hear that there are men such as yourself that have not departed from the authenic teaching of the Holy Church. The days of apostasy are here. May Our Lord Bless us and grant us His Strength. May the Blessed Mother pray for this faithless and perverse generation. +JMJ+

Chi - You make accusations of heretical statements yet you fail to point them out.

Chi, Faith only without obedience to the Church Christ instituted is protestanism.  Can you point out in the Vatican II documents where one must convert to the Catholic Church in order to be saved?

It’s the beginning of the end for the nervous ordo—good riddance. Give us back our glorious traditions, our beauty, our elevated spirit. To the rubbish bin with the talking and behaving like the world in our most sacred of places and most sacred of events, the mass!

Good riddance to bad rubbish!

Please Joe. Read again very carefully my Response.  I have clearly stated that the Protestant distortions of the Vatican II Documents have consistently been rejected - and corrected - by both Blessed Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI who were active participants in the Council and co-Authors of these Documents. They have explained times without number - and have pointed out - these heresies and distortions, and rejected them all, reaffirming the Catholic Church Teachings which are unchangeable Until the End of Time.  The Eucharistic Sacrifice and the Liturgy has now reverted to what it was, before these heresies and distortions were inserted by the Protestants.

For you and all my Beloved People of God on this Website, may I confirm to you that when the Holy Mass was translated into my Local Language here in Kenya, after the Vatican II, it retained the correct and authentic translation of the Original Latin Order of the Holy Mass. Hence, when the New Missals and the Lectionary came into force recently, those in my Local Language did not need to be amended because they have remained true to the Liturgy and the Order of the Holy Mass, especially the Divine Words of Consecration.

Joe, the Ecumenical Movement, just like the current Year of Faith we are celebrating, were never meant to CHANGE ANYTHING WHATSOEVER in the Ancient Catholic Church, her Teachings on Faith and Morals, Her Dogmas, the Writings of the Doctors and the Fathers of the Church or the Magisterium.  Rather, it was the Catholic Church’s response to the Holy Spirit to begin to draw the Separated Brethren back to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, founded by Jesus Christ Himself in prayerful response to His Prayer at the Last Supper.  Please, John and you all,  read again John Chapter 17.  In particular note Christ’s Intercession and His Divine Wish in John 17:20-21.

Joe, please understand, this is the purpose of the Ecumenical Apostolate by the Catholic Church.

Mary@42 The Mystical Body of Christ rejects your opinions.
      What you have spoken is your interpretations and expectations only.  Ecumenical services and pluralism/indifferentism is a major mark of the Council of Vatican II.  The ONLY way it can be corrected is to call it a false council.  It is not a Catholic principle to correct a council that was claimed to be led by the Holy Spirit.  What you are stating is that error was promulgated and later the Holy Spirit needed to be corrected.  That’s ludicrous!

Mary@42 These are pronouncements of the Catholic Church:

Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives” (Bull of Union with the Copts, Council of Florence, 1442)• De Motione Oecumenica - the 1949 Instruction of the Holy Office against Ecumenism
•Mortalium Animos - the 1928 Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius XI condemning Ecumenism and Interreligious Dialogue

Did the Holy Spirit err?

Mary@42 Don’t blame the protestants for misunderstanding.  It’s the Mystical Body of Christ of the Catholic Church who stand on the infallible pronouncements.  Catholics have at duty to proclaim the Magisterial Teachings of the Cathoic Church and a duty to point out false teachings.  How can a council promulgated with errors be later corrected of its errors?

I don’t quite get this article.  Is the author saying that we should be overjoyed because the new translation is mediocre?  And, as a matter of fact, this new translation was at least as much of a rush job as the 1969.  The version that was a product of many years consultation, and transparency never saw the light of day.
My hope is that saner heads will prevail, and that one day we can see the late nineties version, albeit with the current people’s responses.  We shall see.

Joe, that line—“The Mystical Body of Christ rejects your opinions.”—is appalling. You have set yourself up as a magisterium. You evidently believe the Pope is a heretic and schismatic as is everyone who submits to him, but you have the truth.

Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia. You have separated yourself from Peter and therefore from the one fold of Christ. I’m tuning you out.

Sir Louis, Be Appalled!  The ‘people of God’ have signed onto something that contradicts the Traditional Catholic Church.  Holy Mother the Church is not deceived, does not deceive,and never needs to be corrected.
  Mary@42 believes the Holy Spirit makes mistakes and protestants need to point out the errors. Her thinking that misunderstandings are being corrected is absurd!!?? 
Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture AND the infallible Magisterium are the Catholic Church – one cannot exist without the other.  Popes do not correct or contradict their predecessors.  The Vicar of Christ must safe guard the Total Deposit of Faith as revealed by Christ to His apostles.  Truth does not evolve nor take on a different meaning in different generations.  Truth is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (OR there is no truth at all).  The Church began when Christ was pierced by a spear while on the Cross.

Joe, Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia. You are outside the fold. I, and I am sure others here, pray for your return. You would be a great asset to the Church.

Joe, with humility I beg to inform you that this Grandma never enters into futile arguments about my Catholic Faith. This, therefore, is my last contribution on this Post.

However, I feel obliged to clarify from where I am coming when I write about my Catholic Faith.  Having been taught my Faith from infancy by my Teacher/Catechist/Lay Leader Father (whose committed and faithful service to the Catholic Church in Kenya was recognized when the Holy Father conferred upon him the Apostolic Final Absolution on 23rd October, 1953 - and he died on 23rd October, 1978 at a ripe old age of 100 years)I was mentored by the Consolata and Loreto Sisters in their Convents. I am, therefore, humbly confident that my Catholic Faith Foundation is sound.  And I thank God daily for all the Blessings He bestowed on me to decree that I be so born and brought up. Often I feel so unworthy that He game me my devout Parents who bear the names of Joachim and Anna. He also decreed that they would wait for 8 boys’ births before He gave them a daughter - and the last-born - whom they gave a Name she is thoroughly unworthy of - that of the Holy Mother of our Saviour.  If for no other reason, Joe, I am bound to remain faithful - with God’s Grace - to the Bride of Her Son until the end

Joe, you need to appreciate that in my twilight years, as “the Shadows of the oncoming Night of my Life are gathering on the Western Sky”, I have to strive daily to live my Catholic Faith with fidelity, praying daily for God’s Grace to live in His Presence every day He grants me on this earth.

This One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has never deviated from Her Divine Calling of protecting, preserving and proclaiming the Gospel of Salvation given to Her by Her Bridegroom and led by St. Pater and His Successors, she has remained faithful to Her Divine Calling these 2,000+ years.  And so shall She remain until The End of Time. I, therefore, obey Her Teachings on Faith and Morals, Her Doctrine of Dogmas, Her Tradition, the Teachings of her Doctors and Fathers and the Magisterium. I remain faithful to all the Truths which the Catholic Church teaches because God has revealed them to Her, He Who does not deceive and cannot be deceived.

I am a theological and intellectual midget, but then so does Jesus teach us that His Message of Salvation is often revealed, preached and unwaveringly believed by the poor, the simple and the unlearned.  So am I ever grateful that He called me to become an Eucharistic Apostle of the Divine Mercy. God bless you, Joe

Mary@42 - I too am a cradle Catholic and have studied the Catholic Faith for many years.  Your positions are confusing because you substantiate none of it.  You give only personal testimony.  If we stuck to just one issue, “Ecumenism”, for instance, I see that you have acquiesced and compromised on what the Catholic Church teaches.

I agree whole heartedly, Father! There’s no lingering ‘unnatural’ feeling with the “new” translation as was feared.  The mass is the mass is the mass, and, newly translated or not, it’s still the mass! God bless,

Millions of Catholics left the church because of Archbishop Bugnini’s contrived formulation called the novus ordo missae, the new order mass.  The new mass destroys Catholic doctrine in the minds of the faithful and in particular Catholic doctrine concerning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the priesthood, and the Real Presence.  It also permits grave irreverence.  It represents a complete break with the continuous liturgical tradition that preceded it.
    I wonder whatever happened to the 6 protestant ministers who assisted in this new invention?

Joe,

The church is getting stronger outside the West, so may it’s time to stop blaming this council or that or this Mass or that, and blame ourselves for our lack of faithfulness to God, an lust for material things.

savvy - The ‘church’ that is getting stronger, so you say, is not the Roman Catholic Church. How can a church get stronger when it has no missionary spirit and claims salvation can be sound outside the “church”?
Read:  “Animus Delendi-I Desire to Destroy”  by Atila Sinke Guimarâes or Randy Engel’s book, “Sex Education, The Final Plague; or “Tumultuous Times”, by Fathers Radecki; or “Work of Human Hands” by Rev. Anthony Cekada and then tell me that the ‘church’ is Catholic but instead it’s a dying religion;——- as intended.

Joe,

I am talking about the same church, but outside the Western world. The church is exploding in Africa and Asia. We have to import priests from there, because of the shortage in the West.

This has everything to do with our unfaithfulness.

SAVVY - THIS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE CONCILIAR CHURCH CLAIMED CATHOLIC and our individual disobedience.  Conciliarists want their cake and eat it too without sufferings and sacrifices.  I’ve not seen an explanation why the post conciliar church in Asia and Africa is increasing, Europe is turning out the lights on years old Catholic groups and the U S is imploding like a fizzled out balloon.

Joe,

We can’t change others, we have to start with ourselves. Become the saint God created you to be. We are looking for such figures today.

Joe,

I do understand your frustration, on the high levels of ignorance. Most Catholics cannot tell the difference between an ordained priest and a Protestant minister.  But, anger is not the answer. Those of us who have discovered these things, it’s because of the grace of God. It’s like my friends, who became religion teachers in Catholic schools, because they were so fed up of the instruction they received. They wanted to do better.

Savvy, the The Novus Ordo or “Lord’s Supper [by definition], the assembly or gathering together of the People of God, with a presider leading a celebration of the Memorial of the Lord,” is a typical Protestant service — a celebration of praise and thanksgiving only. 
  Priests do not offer the new mass contrived by Bugnini and the 6 protestant ministers who hated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  Catholics know that presiders are not ordained priests but are merely men mocking the True Mass. 

savvy, protestant ministers and men who say the new order/novus ordo missae are the same ilk. Both are in disobedience. (I’m being blocked on posting a fuller explantation.)

Pope St. Felix III stated clearly what we must do: “Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.”
      With that charge, are we to stand idly by when we see what has happened to our beloved Church? Saint John Fisher said that “He who goes about to take the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass from the Church plots no less a calamity than if he tried to snatch the sun from the universe.”

http://www.sgg.org/for-newcomers/mass-streaming/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=SGG+Christmas+Mass+Simulcasts&utm_content=SGG+Christmas+Mass+Simulcasts+CID_32280d42848ab7c7825a016d06082551&utm_source=Email marketing software&utm_term=SGG Christmas Mass Simulcasts on Web

Joe,

I am sorry, but you are incorrect. The orders faithful to the church were founded after V2. The ones falling away are a lot older like the LCWR, the Marynoll’s etc.  A smaller, but vibrant church is the will of God.

Have a Merry Christmas.

savvy, the pre-Vatican II priests you say are illegitimate!  But you cannot prove your statement –or you would have. 
      So Holy Mother Church got the consecrations and the ordinations wrong for 2000?  What are you smokin’?
Christ was born to die so that we might live.  Merry Christmas!

Joe,

All the ordinations are valid, but people still fall away. The Biggest part of that Sacred Tradition is a catholic must abide and give obedience to the Teaching Authority of ALL LEGITIMATE COUNCILS of the Church. If one doesn’t then what else can separate them from being another Martin Luther? Who also believes that an Ecumenical/General Councils of the Church can err.

savvy - the essence of the post V2 consecrations and ordinations changed; therefore, making them invalid.
Pope Innocent III said that if any future Pope tries to change the sacraments, he must not be followed.
At Council of Florence Pope Eugene IV had as his theologian Cardinal Torquemada who wrote a book titled “Summa Ecclesia”, which says that if a Pope tries to change the sacraments he puts himself outside the Church. For this work Pope Eugene IV gave him the title “Defender of the Faith”.
Pope St. Pius V in response to the Council of Trent’s dogmatic definitions wrote his bull Quo Primum. This bull clearly states that the Roman rite and those rites greater than 200 years old, cannot be changed and that any priest cannot be forced to say any other rite. All Popes after this time up to and including Pope John XXIII interpreted Quo Primum as binding on them.
Savvy – if there is just one contradiction to Holy Mother the Church’s teachings in a council, than the whole council is false and not to be followed.

Joe,

There has been no contradiction.  The substance of the sacraments has not changed,  You cannot reject a council, the church accepts. You cannot say that Matt 16:18 is true, except when you disagree with it.  This is no different from a cafeteria Catholic or a Protestant. I hope you repent and come back to the church.

savvy - prove there are no differences. 
  Do you want to start with “religious liberty” promoted now as a ‘good’ in Dignitatis Humanae Vatican II document?  Or the new order of mass (that caused millions to exit the Church)?  Were these people uncatechized?  Was that why they left?
      Or sexualized catechetics in parochial schools.  Communion in the hand and eucharistic ministers?  Or ballon, beach, dancing girls, basket ball, cheese head, clown…...new styled masses?  Or—communion to anyone who asks for it without conversion?  Your choice, but not opinions!!!  You must substantiate your position with what has been handed on and IS NOT novelty.

Joe,

Religious liberty.

In his encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi, Pope Pius XII stated,

It is absolutely necessary that conversion should come about by free choice, since no man can believe unless he be willing. . . . That faith without which it is impossible to please God must be the perfectly free homage of intellect and will.

Should it therefore at any time happen that, contrary to the unvarying teaching of this Apostolic See, a person is compelled against his will to embrace the Catholic faith, we cannot in conscience withhold our censure.

Vatican II’s decree on religious liberty, Dignitatis Humanae, reaffirmed this:

Although in the life of the people of God in its pilgrimage through the vicissitudes of human history there has at times appeared a form of behavior which was hardly in keeping with the spirit of the gospel and was even opposed to it, it has always remained the teaching of the Church that no one is to be coerced into believing.

New Order of the Mass.

Pope Paul VI approved the removal of the words of the mystery of faith from the consecratory formula of the wine not to diminish belief in transubstantiation but to “express more clearly” the actual words spoken by Jesus Christ during the Consecration:

The words ‘mystery of faith’ . . . are not those of our Lord at the institution of the Eucharist. . . . None of the scriptural accounts of the institution records these words; they are not to be found in other formulas of Consecration recognized as valid by the Church; and hence they are not required for a valid Consecration. It is because these words are not among those spoken by our Lord that they have been rearranged in the revised Roman Missal containing the New Order of the Mass. ‘The words “Mystery of Faith” . . . taken out of the context of the words of our Lord and pronounced by the priest,’ Pope Paul VI explained in his 1969 Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum, ‘serve as it were as an introduction to the acclamation of the faithful (James Likoudis and Kenneth Whitehead, The Pope, the Council, and the Mass, 113–114).

The Second Vatican Council had this to say about legitimate changes to the liturgy:

The liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change. These not only may but ought to be changed with the passage of time if they have suffered from the intrusion of anything out of harmony with the inner nature of the liturgy or have become unsuited to it.

In this restoration, both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things that they signify; the Christian people, so far as possible, should be enabled to understand them with ease and to take part in them fully, actively, and as befits a community (Sacrosanctum Concilium 21).

Correcting Liturgical Abuses.

The document is entitled Redemptionis Sacramentum (Latin, “The Sacrament of Redemption”). It was prepared by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments at the request of Pope John Paul II, and it offers practical rules (norms) concerning how Mass is to be celebrated and how the Eucharist is to be treated. It focuses on liturgical abuses that have been occurring in recent years.

Please read it.

http://archive.catholic.com/library/redemptionis_sacramentum.asp

savvy, you stated in Vatican II document: “The liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change.
        What a bunch of guaboolly goop!!  In the same sentence it is ‘immutable and then states “subject to change”.  That’s typical conciliarism.  It’s a senseless statement.  How can a doctrine be unchangeable then changeable???  You accept this stuff??
  So, you accept that non-catholics can receive communion without converting also??  Don’t forget, savvy, the new order of mass was contrived by protestants who hated the Holy Sacrifice – the time Immemorial Mass.  Removing the Mystery of Faith and placing it after the consecration (stating Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again – these are no mysteries but FACTS).  It is an abomination because an essence of the True Mass was smeared. 
  You cannot connect your position with Sacred Tradition.  This is outrageous and you take it as factual!  Guess you think Magisterial Teachings are fallible; guess you think the Holy Spirit makes mistakes and man needs to correct God;  Guess you do not believe in the infallibility of the Vicar of Christ.  Guess you believe popes can correct their predecessors. 
  Just state clearly you are a conciliarist and not a Catholic and the lines will be perfectly clear and accepted.

Savvy - Vatican II’s decree on religious liberty, Dignitatis Humanae, promulgated by the Second Vatican Council (Dec. 7, 1965):
“Therefore, the right to religious freedom has its foundation, not in the subjective disposition of the person, but in his very nature. In consequence, the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligations of seeking the truth and adhering to it.
  Contrast the above with the following:
Pope Boniface VIII in his Bull Unam Sanctam (1302) infallibly taught:
“We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one Catholic Church, and that one apostolic.
Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Satis Cognitum (1896) reiterated this doctrine:
  “There is clear and abundant proof in Sacred Scripture that there is one genuine Church of Jesus Christ…
Ever convinced of her divine origin, the Catholic Church has always condemned the erroneous belief that all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy and that it doesn’t matter to what church one belongs for men can find salvation in any church. This is the false doctrine of religious indifferentism which has been frequently condemned by the Catholic Church.
Pope Pius IX issued his Syllabus of Errors (1864) in which he CONDEMNED:
• “Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall have come to consider as true.”
  In the 1917 Code of Canon Law 125 8, (communicatio in sacris):
“It is unlawful for the faithful to assist in any active manner, or to take part in the sacred services of non-Catholics.”

Religious indifferentism, false ecumenism, and religious liberty have been emphatically condemned yet now are common practices.

Savvy, does the infallibility of the Pope matter to you?  Do you believe the Holy Spirit makes errors?  Must man change what has been handed on by the Roman Catholic Church?

Posted by savvy on Wednesday, Dec 26, 2012 2:00 PM (EDT):

savvy, I’m trying to answer you on some points you’ve made in regards to religious liberty, but I keep getting ‘blocked’.  I’m showing you the contrast and the ‘moderator’ does not want you to see the contradictions.

savvy, I show no disrespect, yet moderator kicks out anything mentioned of pre-vatican II encyclicals.  How can anyone have a discussion when moderator is so biased and controlling?

Joe,

You are not addressing these issues. You are too biased and angry to see anything. May God help you.

How interesting it is, savvy, that when one points to facts that cannot be disproved, the one stating the facts are considered ‘angry’.  What a cope out, savvy.  Prove what I post is in error.  Since you can’t you want to claim I’m ‘angry’.  Many don’t understand why I do this.  Let me explain:  many good people are stuck within the framework of modernized, false ecumenical ‘changes’ - novel/radical inventions that are a disconnect from Sacred Tradition.  I fear for their souls.  It’s a burden placed upon me.  Now get off my character and do your homework and prove where I’m wrong.