A century ago, blacks, immigrants, Catholics, and other ‘undesirables’ were openly lynched in communities throughout the United States. Jim Crow laws were accepted practically everywhere - and defended under the ‘separate but equal’ doctrine. Workers dying in droves was so common it rarely made the news - the Triangle Shirtwaist fire and Matewan are examples of how dire circumstances must be to merit notice.

There was a need for advocates for the poor and workers; America was a much different place. Now, many unions are less advocates for their membership then they are powerbrokers in their own right. Look at the wealth and influence of the UAW, the AFL-CIO, SEIU, AFT, and the NEA. Collectively, they use union dues and ‘contributions’ from members to funnel hundreds of millions of dollars to elect people who in turn are beholden to their patrons. The former and current head of SEIU actually seem to have an open door to the Oval Office. How does this help the worker?

It doesn’t.

Using collective bargaining as a bludgeon, the unions in Wisconin - and a number of other states - have forced governments to accede to outrageous concessions. Fully paid benefits? Is that realistic? Is that fair? Is that justice? Especially when it’s the taxpayer’s dime? I don’t think so.

In the case of teacher unions, I would think that the Church would be unwilling to stand beside them. Both the NEA and the AFT are famous for their support of abortion. Supporting them would be a violation of the Catechism.

Everytime I read about the Church and unions, I chuckle and think to myself: when as an employee of the church am I going to get paid enough to take care of my family? All these news stories about the right to a just wage and the church is the last to pay a just wage! I make much less than my local secular counterparts, despite offering a better product (education), and I pay almost the equivalent of my rent to cover my monthly health insurance premium through my diocese (the employer pays half of what the employee pays over here, by the way). We don’t really have luxuries, but the wife and I can’t afford to buy a home (even an unsafe fixer-upper) for our family. I once saw a job ad for a full-time youth ministry job in Boston that was offering $25k/year…in Boston! Is it that the people who set the salaries have no realistic ideas about how much it costs to live? Is it because the Church in many places wants to continue attracting high school graduates to do the jobs of folks with theology degrees? Is it because all the unnecessary programs at parishes and schools, just there to make the place look spiffy (a façade), are more important than hiring and providing for qualified and skilled employees?

Please, write a story about that! Please bring it to the attention of the bishops, many of whom only give it lip-service. We need decent wages and proper benefits for our families! These Wisconsin teachers are overpaid! I make less than a third of their income for the same work. Stop ignoring the elephant in the room!

I had always wondered about the alliance between the Church, the Democrat Party, and the unions, but then I saw a video from RealCatholicTV that opened my eyes.

I am in agreement with John (above). There was a time when unions were needed, but they went too far and are now corrupt and use the high union dues to support politicians and other advocates. [it is a business where certain people are getting rich on workers dues] When one thinks of it, it is the “money mongers” again.  With the sofisticated communications we have today, why do politicians need the monies from these organizations and wealthy people to run for office.  They only reach a few people by traveling around the U.S. wasting money GIVEN to them. (you know “you grease my hand and I will grease yours back)  It is that simple.  Every household today has a simple T.V.  Politicians should use this media to reach the people and not be obliged to any person or organization.  THEY SHOULD RUN ON THEIR OWN MERITS.  Everyone knows Pres. Obama is beholding to the Unions. (oh, and I forgot the entertainment world). People make things so complicated and in the end there are a certain few who are reaping the MONEY.  A century ago, people were less educated & thus needed the unions.  Today people don’t need unions to advance themselves.  We can go on and on about this….......{Look at what the unions have done to the teaching community, which at one time was revered—-today that is another matter, another huge subject.}
P.S. I am in my 80’s so I do not have to read how things were a century ago, it all happened within my family.

John, I so agree - and want to ask Joan: are you aware of how different unions are today? Just one example: the NEA has, as recommended reading on its website, Saul Alinksy’s ‘Rules For Radicals”, a book dedicated to LUCIFER, that teaches the reader to employ unethical, evil practices in order to achieve goals. It preaches violent destruction. Is this a group our Bishops should endorse? Also, are you aware of the thuggery of SEIU? Evidently, you aren’t. These leaders are radicals, Joan, ruthless radicals who do not in any sense behave like Christians. ‘The common good’ is no more than a pretext today, an ‘end’ for which evil means can be employed. As a journalist, especially a Catholic journalist, it is your solemn responsibility to step back and take in reality before you write. Frankly, I am appalled that NCRegister would print this article.

I agree with John.  We are not talking about the downtrodden masses when we look at public employee unions here.  It used to be that government workers, in return for job security and somewhat lower performance demands perhaps, earned a bit less than the average Joe.  That is no longer the case.  I’ll bet you can’t show me one private employer In Wisconsin who provides the benefits that the Wisconsin governor wants to change public employees’ coverage to. 

Unions in private industry at least have some checks and balances—they have to negotiate with management and if a good deal isn’t struck for all, over time, you see the demise of the employer and/or more realistic terms later on.  In government, “management” is the elected official, who the unions will support to support them.  Where are the checks and balances here?

The bishops are wise to take a neutral stand on this issue.  Being Jesuit-educated, I understand their liberal view to life, but the facts are the facts—government cannot afford the burden of public employee pensions and perks.  It’s not about Wall Street and Afghanistan, folks.

the whole thing is a mess, bishops and priests need to be neutral and let the political process work things out. I do not see father Harak actions as beneficial to the impass and the Bishops should curtail his involvement. By giving sanctuary to the democrats tha fled Wiscounsin he has done an injustice to the people they represent and serve. Fr. Harak please go and pray and stay out of politics, The Bishops and priests should take into consideration that a lot of people are pro-abortion and against the teaching of the church. So they should stay out. Their mission is spiritual guidance to their flocks. The excessive demands from the unions have bankrupted the states

Huge corporations and big government always has this 1 solution to the economic problems: penalize the workers. CEO’s and chief executives salaries have not suffered one iota during the last few decades yet they have no problem stripping the last legal protections fom public workers. Why? To insure that teachers, police, fireman, etc. starve when they retire? While most definatly insuring that profits everywhere abound. Personally you couldn’t pay me emough to teach (baby-sit) your spoiled brats or patrol the mean streets while you rest quietly. I don’t blame the bishops for their neutral postion though. Its sad to see that so many have abandoned the pews when the Church was (and still is) the foremost advocate of their sufferage in former decades.

“The only sector of union membership that is growing is public unions,” he said. “That is highly problematic from a Catholic point of view, because these public unions publicly favor abortion rights and ‘gay marriage’ and seek to undercut the Church’s agenda on social questions.”

That says it all, right there…

And let’s not forget the fact that the unions are plenty alright with their members paying their own weight toward health benefits and retirement. Walker won’t stop there, he’s busting up the unions because they are the primary source of funds to the Dems.

I agree with John. The Unions (which I was a member of for awhile) have now become a Socialist organization that endorse abortion, gay-marriage and other anti-Catholic teachings. These big unions have full access to Obama and his administration. The Democrats give these unions more and more outrageous demands and benefits (unlike what the public sector jobs give) and in return, they give the Democrats lots of $$$. Union bosses get lots of money and perks. The union members have little or no say of where there dues go in support of the Democratic Party. Governors from most states are facing a very big problem of trying to balance their budgets. They can longer afford these outrageous benefits paid out to the public service unions while other citizens continue to loose jobs and their homes.

Maybe the Church should give their employees secretaries, teachers, housekeepers, janitors, daycare workers and priests the same benefits that these union workers are geeting.  Then how many more schools, churches, hospitals etc. would be closed down. You can’t expect the Sunday collections to cover that JOKE.

John, for 8 straight years, the Oval office was wide open for the US Chamber of Commerce under George W. Bush. You write of the unions as some kind of overbearing influence on public policy. Hardly so when one looks at the economic history of this nation. Had it not been for unions there’d be no weekends off, no vacation time (even our scanty 2 weeks as compared to our European counterparts), mandatory overtime with no added pay, no health benefits and if you were hurt or maimed on the job and couldn’t come back to work? You and your family were beyond luckless, especially if you happened to live in the many factory owned tenements built in milltowns in northeastern cities, particularly cities like Holyoke, MA and other “milltowns” in New England. No work, no home. Tough luck.
  Why was the Knights of Columbus founded? It wasn’t a labor movement organization, but it arose out of the dire financial and social needs many working men (who were often THE sole support of their families)who couldn’t work any longer due to life-altering permanent disabilities resulting from work in those very unsafe factories. My father had a “part time” moonlighting job during the Great Depression, where the only thing he had to do was stay awake to be on the watch for any breaking leather bands that kept the looms working. I asked him, “Well, what would happen and what could you do if one did break?” His reply, “People would be instantly killed, all hell would break loose and if you were hurt, tough luck.”
  Do we want to go back to those days? Well, you might say, “Oh, it couldn’t happen, we have too many safety regulations, etc. to make sure of it and factories are different.” I’ll grant the latter, but whose to say these OSHA and other worker safety regulations will stay in place if we allow greedy octopuses like the Koch Brothers (of Koch Industries) and their slavish penny pinching knaves in the GOP keep getting away with picking our entire social-economic safety net apart, from safe labor conditions to collective bargaining rights to our very health care and retirement programs.
  Wake up!
  Koch, particularly David Koch, and his new errand boy, Gov. Walker in Wisconsin, plus all their various anti-worker fronts such as the Americans for Prosperity (whose, by the way?), Citizens United and the granddaddy of all false fronts, Tea Party, USA, a whole subsidiary of the Republican Party that was created for the sole purpose of stirring up a lot of pent up resentments of middle and poorer class whites, after so many of their duped members have been fed a trough of diabolical lies from the birther nonsense to doubts about the President’s faith, and worst of all ... the false message that the nation has been taken from Middle Class America by the “far Left” when in fact it’s the Right that’s doing all the taking.
  The Right is using the Tea Party and other social conservatives who are justifiably outraged by public funding of Planned Parenthood and other ideas we (fellow social conservatives) find abhorrent. But as a fiscal liberal who also realizes from raising a family of six through hard times and becoming disabled, had it not been for even the modest programs we were able to participate in, just to help us put more nutritious food on the plates for our kids or keep the roof over our heads w/o going to the poorhouse, it’ll be a cold day in hell before I stand by quietly and watch the other great things government, and the people who serve it in do to help the public. I’ve worked in both federal and state positions and some time within academia, and I can proudly say that government runs things far more efficiently than most private firms I’ve come across.
  Government employees don’t get bonuses for running their departments into the ground. The few bad apples eventually get the boot, but for the longest time, the good employees get the scorn, no thanks to our media, especially the Rightist media led by Citizen Murdoch, and the godfather of demogoguery, Rush Limbaugh, not to mention his Rush-wannabe acolytes on other shows. This drumbeat of deceit will continue booming unless the people wake up to what’s happening. The Koch Brothers, the GOP, Americans for Prosperity, US Chamber of Commerce and Citizens United are out to bust the public employees unions in Wisconsin because of the state’s historical significance in the labor movement.
  If it can bust the unions there, there won’t be a safe place for them anywhere, save for Massachusetts and a few other northeastern states where workers’ rights have more protection than in other parts of the country, especially the “right-to-work” Sunbelt. Oh, they’ll say, “Hey, those places are growing?” I’ll grant that but for whom? And who’s getting what percentage of this growth. Remember, the plantation and sharecropper mentality have never been eradicated in the South and it never will be so long as the Kochs, the GOP and all other anti-worker forces are able to crush the last vestige of workers’ rights through union membership.
  As a Catholic, I find it deeply troubling that any Catholic could support Walker and his UNION-BUSTING tactics. It’s heretical, runs directly against our Church’s teachings on labor, and it’s a flat-out mortal sin to support any politician or organization which seeks to snatch the hard-earned rights of any union to represent its members. When the union is destroyed, the workers’ rights go with it and individually they are left at the mercy of the BOSS, be it the governor or a private company owner.
  One of the consistent arguments tossed out by conservatives is that public employees shouldn’t have the right to unionize or strike against the public, THE TAXPAYER. I’m not trying to disparage taxpayers, being one myself, but aren’t we forgetting something here? Aren’t teachers, paraprofessionals, lunch ladies and other public servants taxpayers also? (No thanks to some excessively tight-fisted school boards, lunch ladies are getting outsourced. Hope these local pols feel bigger.)And do all public servants get the same benefits? No. Are you willing, however, to take on your local fire and police departments, or other public servants who do a lot of dirty, difficult tasks nobody else wants, and challenge these workers to give up what they’ve worked hard to earn as part of their compensation?
  Why are the fatcats of the Right Wing going after the teachers unions? Because once labor’s finished off, so will much of the Democratic Party’s ability to raise sufficient campaign funds to run even moderately competitive runs for public offices at all levels. The GOP and Dick Armey’s so-called Tea Party, backed by their Rightist pals, much like the Nazis were by the Krupps and other “leading industrialists” in “respected German society” are out to create a one-party state, just as Germany’s hidden elite did by allowing the Nazis to take over, foolishly believing they could “control” them. And what was one of the first things the Nazis did after taking power? They busted the very same unions that foolishly backed them,  putting them to work under near or practically slave labor conditions building Hitler’s Autobahn. If they complained; off to Dachau.
  Here if you complain without union representation; your’re on the street, even if you have valid complaints about overworking, favoritism, unsafe working conditions, no time for religious observance, and a check that’s always subject to docking at the slightest whim of an employer. I’ve seen it, and I’m almost 60 years old. Is this what we want for ourselves and our children?
  If labor goes, so will a lot of laws prohibiting discrimination against the disabled; or have we forgotten the junion Senator from KY’s doubts about the wisdom of the Americans With Disabilities Act. Odd doubts coming from an eye-doc. But don’t worry, Dr. Rand Paul and his Republican pals have your best interests at heart with a prayer and a nice, well, sorry, but ... life’s not fair attitude.
There are some Catholics who deserve a good withering look and reminder or more of what their Church teaches and doesn’t when it comes to labor laws, the social safety net and good governance. Subsidiarity is being falsely packaged by today’s Catholic conservatives into a preferred near bargain-basement level of government service, not just service working to help people at where they are instead of leaving them with a huge bureaucracy.
  John Boehner, Paul Ryan and Newt Gingrich; what a trio. Take them, please. Boehner’s shown his true character and colors when he snidely said “so be it” when he was told how many federal employees would lose their jobs and shortly afterwards, with the government facing a possible shut down, he puts on his golfing cleats and no doubt teed off with lobbyists, his preferred kind of pals. Wonder if they give him a shoulder or more to cry on. That’s more than he’s offering those employees whose jobs are at risk. Paul Ryan, the scarecrow from that wonderful Wisconsin breeding ground of modern-day radicalist Republicanism, a scarecrow of a man with a yearning to become a modern day version of Charles Dickens’ favorite characters; book-keepers with no souls. Ryan must’ve never watched or read the final third part of Scrooge’s long night of the soul in “Christmas Carols.”
  Ryan loves to pitch to our sense of guilt, (he’d be a great [lifetime] curate, forever finding ways to inject a twinge of future guilt for something nobody in their right mind would lay on another person. He’s so concerned that we’ll forever be left with the guilt of laying such a burden of debt on to our children and grandchildren. Glory be and all the saints sing Ryan’s praises. Not so fast. My Baby Boomer generation has paid for the debts of our parents and grandparents which resulted from Great Depression losses, New Deal expenses and World War II, Korean & Vietnam Wars, the Cold War as a whole, both Gulf wars, and let’s not forget a Republican president, Dwight Eisenhower’s interstate highways and NASA. We also paid for the Great Society, many great college aid programs (taken by philosophical conservatives, too, no less) and the list could go on and on. In case Mr. Ryan’s interested, I don’t mind paying a dime for all the good that my generation received; beginning with the security of living in the (still) greatest and freest land in the world. All generations are going to pass on debt, but I’d sure as hell pass on a debt with something to show for it besides roads that are falling apart, school buildings in dire need of repair, a hodgepodge national passenger railroad grid, over-burdened FAA facilities and operators and a military that’s been outsourcing far too many functions during the past two decades while politicians who think they know better than the generals how to fight wars cherry pick what they want for their districts and beggar both the service branches and other districts.
  Sadly, we also have to pay for President Obama’s (quite reluctant) tax deal with the GOP leadership (that was anything but reluctant at this feeding trough) last December which he needed to get other legislation passed. Yet the GOP in its usual “wisdom,” even after bagging so many millions in free cash tax breaks for people inheriting wealth, among other sweetheart deals, couldn’t come up with a mere $250 in one-time bonus checks for people on SS and most shamefully, not a dime for disabled Veterans. Some flagwavers this bunch has proven to be: cheap in the clutch as always, except for their pals on K-Street.
  Newt Gingrich? Poor Newt, what more can be said about a guy who must’ve been given a pass in RCIA when it came to having to learn anything about the Church’s Social and Economic Tradition, especially since Leo XIII published Rerum Novarum. Recently Gingrich allowed Human Events to run a letter of his in favor of Gov. Walker. While that was bad enough, though for Gingrich, expected, at the top of this shameless screed were two images, one promoting his picture book about Ronald Reagan, Union-Buster-in-Chief—but the coup de (lack) of grace ... was a promo for his and Callista’s video about Pope John Paul II’s first visit to Poland of all places and time, in the Spring of 1979. It was a good thing Gingrich lacked the further ironic indecency to Solidarity, which the Pope inspired to fight its fight for the rights of Polish workers to unionize.
  The Bishops in Wisconsin are playing their cards close, but if I were the Right, especially the Catholic Right in Wisconsin and elsewhere, I’d be playing it a lot safer than they’ve done lately. They have allowed the fat cats like the brothers Koch, the Bradley Foundation and other Rightist outfits to worm their way into Catholic ranks in hopes of spreading doubts, false interpretations of Catholic Social Doctrine and whatever other dirty tricks they can come up with for the sole sake of achieving whatever crumbs of power they can get from begging at Walker’s table when this is all over. Judases we’ve had for 2,000 years, and Judases we have today.
  In the meantime, the smallest percentage of Americans will enjoy all the perks and real fat goodies of all the tax breaks guys like Ryan pushed through which we’ll ALL be paying for for years to come. How are we going to pay? Just like Walker in Wisconsin, the national cheapskates are running with their tax giveway breaks to the bank while slashing necessary social programs to the bone or worse ... with nary a new job to be created out of this butcher shop operation.
  As Vermont’s Senator Bernie Sanders (I)firmly, loudly and poignantly, asked last December on the Senate Floor, “How much is enough?”  For the fat cats, it’s a never ending meal. For Wisconsin’s and all of America’s dedicated public employees, it’s just a fair shot to collectively bargain for a fair, but not bank-busting deal. Is this too much to ask of Walker, Koch, Ryan, Boehner and Gingrich? Always has been, always will be for guys like them and their ilk.

John ..You have in a very short space hit the proverbial nail smack on the head in regards to the dilemma of the worker and his union. No longer is the union aiding the worker by championing his rights..rather the union is using the worker to enrich and empower its leaders to have the political clout it needs to advance its agenda…an agenda that the USCCB should not touch with a ten foot pole. If the Bishops are so nuts about the teachers union why is it they will fight tooth and nail to keep them out of their Catholic schools. ( e.g. Diocese of Scranton, Pa. )Also the teachers union supports the teaching of homosexuality as an alternate life style, same sex marriage, all the social evils the USCCB should be
spending more time denouncing. It would appear that some members of the USCCB are stuck in a time warp in their thinking re unions in the USA today.( Sorry about the overuse of the cliche!)

We have to acknowledge that what may have been a necessary and good thing at one time has seriously gone wrong.

Alss, as a former government employee, I have never believed that there was a place for unions in any government service.

I am glad to see that our bishops are taking a sensible position on this subjet.

A Catholic can’t just say “the union is Good.”  The bishops need to articulate what union action is appropriate and what is wrong, and how to judge whether a union is faithfully serving its members in the community.

“Appropriate action in service to its members and the community” does not seem to describe the union’s role in this incident.

I think perhaps the WI bishops are starting this, please God!

A distinction needs to be made concerning union representation for public workers versus private industry workers. 

Public workers have protection through the laws and government regulations that have established their rights, benefits and wages.  Public workers can petition their representatives in city, county, state and federal governments as well as government agencies to correct an unfair condition.  So I ask, why are public workers represented at all.  The benefit for unions is to increase membership and therefore due revenue which unfortunately is used by unions frequently counter to the union members wishes.

Private industry workers may need some union representation to keep unscrupulous employers in check but the workers need a choice of whether to be represented or not.  If conditions are so poor, workers will organize.  Most employers want to keep their good workers and treat their workers well and therefore the workers will chose not to join.  The important thing is that workers need to have a free choice.

I have an issue with unions in this regard: in certain professions, such as teaching, one must belong to the union to teach in public schools.  Also, in certain areas, jobs must be given to union workers, such as in construction, when local workers who are as well qualified or better cannot be hired for a more reasonable pay scale.  Where is the justice in that, denying a person the opportunity to work unless they pay a union fee?  Sounds like a shakedown to me, or shades of the old “protection” system in certain neighborhoods. 
I know a number of teachers who intensely dislike having to pay union dues, since the stance of their union goes against their personal beliefs, but in order to have a job, they must belong to the union.  Again, where is the justice and freedom in American unions?

Most people who run Ponzi schemes and other types of financial frauds, if they are caught, are prosecuted. There is a difference, however, when the thieves are political leaders.

Take the State of New Jersey where there is a huge public employee pension deficit. Government has not made its full required contribution in nearly 20 years.

Employees were just led on, to stay working for government, often at lower salaries, because they would have life time benefits. It seems to me that this is nothing but a common fraud. Plain old common sense and honesty would dictate that these politicians should have been forthright and told employees what the government could afford. This would allow employees to plan for their futures, based on good and honest information.

The main reason why there is a difference in morality between the so-called collective bargaining “rights” for government union workers and such “rights” for private sector union workers is because government unions have direct access to the money from which their wages and benefits derive while the private sector unions don’t.  The private sector can not make customers buy their products which produces the company’s revenues from which the workers wages and benefits are derived.  That money source is totally dependant on the public voluntary deciding to give or not give that company their money. Any decision concerning wages and benefits between the employer and union workers can be impacted by the voluntary actions of the buying public. If the public does not support the union’s demands, they can continue voluntarily purchasing that companies goods and services, keeping them running.  If they support the union, they can boycott the company, which may force the company to make concessions.  The decision is eventually resolved by the action of the voluntary behavior of the customers.

The government unions, however, have direct access to the money from which their wages and benefits come, by way of the government being able to mandate that the public pay taxes to the government.  Those taxes go mostly to paying for the government workers wages and benefits.  Government worker unions pay dues out of their wages which the union uses to elect government officials who then have a direct impact on the budgets of the various government departments including those that are unionized. Those government officials can increase the budgets of those departments which in turn enables the unions to seek higher wages and better benefits, which has been the case for some time, now.  With bigger budgets, the departments can employ more union workers and concede to higher wages and more generous benefits from which more dues money is available to the union to elect more government officials favorable to them.  This direct symbiotic relationship between the government employer, i.e., the elected officials, and the union workers leaves the revenue source, i.e., the taxpayer, completely out of the equation.  In essence, it makes the vast public paying taxpayers slaves to the government officials and the union.

The above government union scenario is in contradiction to the essence of the Church’s historical moral support for unions which is: “…to secure the just rights of workers within the framework of the common good of THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY.”  Making slaves of taxpayers through a corruption of the electoral process is not for the common good of the whole of society.  It is a shame that the bishops felt the need to say something about what is happening in Wisconsin, but in doing so, did in such a nuanced way that Catholics and others could take from what they said, whatever they wanted.  That is not moral leadership, but is indicative of the kind of “direction” the bishops have given us Catholics ever since their inception of “collegiality” and the “Seamless Garment” some twenty-six years ago which has allowed half or more of Catholics to feel morally justified to continue to give their name identification and voting support to the pro-abortion party – the pro union, no matter what - Democrat Party.

What does “teaching homosexuality” have to do with the issue at hand? What does some national union headquarters’ wrongful stand on abortion have to do with the issue at hand? Don’t you people see how the RIGHT wing is using these wedge issues, as important as they are another context, to distract some of you from the essential issue we’re dealing with; collective bargaining rights for public employees?

You’re getting smoked! Citizen Rupert, the ultra conservative Catholic wing, and the whole apparatus of the very extremely well-funded and up to Walker’s moment with the “punking” caller who fooled him into thinking he was talking to none other than the Don of Dons, David Koch, extremely well orchestrated and widespread across many states.

Stick with the issue. I oppose abortion for all reasons, and I’m very keen to what it’s also done to the future of our social safetynet, of which, Social Security is a direct product of thanks to Msgr. Ryan’s work with Frances Perkins during the Great Depression. Fifty million would-be fellow citizens are no longer with us and we will be paying for their forced losses for decades, if not a full century to come.

In the meantime, however, don’t let the union’s mistaken ideas and platform planks on abortion, gay marriage, or this promoting homosexuality in public schools (which most rank n’ file members don’t care at all for)distract Catholics from the specific labor rights issue at hand. This distraction and creating dissention within the Church is exactly what the Protestant Koch Brothers would be delighted with.

Wake up! We’re being “Americanized” within the conservative ranks as surely as the liberals are (and becoming for all intents and purposes, quasi Episcopalians.) Is this the Catholic Church in the US, or a newly balkanized bunch of squabbling American crybabies making themselves ready for the “Have you looked elsewhere to worship, where the gospel and respect for America is preached” crowd.

I belonged to a union when I worked for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and I was able to get help when I really needed it. When I worked for the state of Florida, tough crappers. Now that ought to tell you something.

As an old guy who grew up studying Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno, and as one who has studied and lived through 75 years of economic history, I am stunned to read the comments of alleged Catholics who seem to feel that the working class no longer deserves the protection of brotherhood in the economic sphere against the power of an increasingly concentrated economic/power elite.  Granted, the accidentals of our life circumstances may appear different, but the paradigms of power relationships have shifted little or may actually be moving against the lower 90% of the socio-economic strata whether they realize it or not.
Without question, everyone must share in the economic realities of our current fiscal crisis, but using that crisis to also crush future dialogue will lead to the social despair seen in many parts of the world.

I was in a union for 26 years. And I was wronged by a union as well because of politics. But,I believe in the union. The days of the big money are gone. The vulchers in both corporate rooms and union halls ate up the territory. The rule of supply and demand are now in session. Baby boomers are retiring. Our generation(including myself)didn’t want many children. Thus the ratio alone makes it difficult to sustain a healthy government retirement system. Now we no longer have companies doing buisness in the U.S. With so much government regulations,taxes,and sometimes outrageous union demands.However,we also know that slave-child labor in China,Mexico and India are really hard for the greedy to resist.It’s all in Gods hands. Maybe,we went wrong when we decided to allow Sunday as just another day to make money( or go into debt).Catholics quit going to church.But managed to work on a Sunday for double-time.Or taking the boat to the lake for a long weekend.Where was labor at for the defenseless and unrepresented unborn being slaughtered?Yes we still need unions to protect people.Think about it! When Pope John Paul ll, lived in Poland, they wanted unions not for money,but to protect themselves from the communist. From working long hours and being treated like animals.Everybody must be open to sacrifice and to the reality, that our country is ‘BROKE’.Until we go back to the basics and redirect our focus back to God and follow the path of Christ, it AINT going to get any better folks.Be thankful for what you have for right now.

You can always count on the Jesuits to be on the wrong side of the issue these days.  Nothing like undermining the democratic process is there.  I would agree with John regarding the times and the unions.  There is a distinct difference between a public and private sector union but in any case, a strike/protest must be based on a belief of a just outcome.  The governor has given a good rationale for his move.  I, personally, believe that gov’t workers should be banned from unionizing as it results in a conflict of interest.  The legislators benefit from the unions, collect the dues and then negotiate with the unions as a representative of the State - us, the taxpayers.  Ironically, the infamous 14 are part of the old legislature that, along with previous legislators and governors, created the current problem.  The people have voted so now the dems, having lost, wish to cancel the democratic process.  At least, in the assembly, they fought the fight, representing the people who sent them there to work the democratic process.

“demographic realities that have made immigration reform the top social-justice issue for many Catholic bishops.”

Do you see that it is every bit as self-serving for the Catholic Bishops to promote illegal immigration as it has been for the Democratic Party to promote runaway unionism?

If you do not see this, wait a few years until illegal immigration blows up our faces just as unionism is now exposing the hypocrisy of the Democrats.

If we were facing an uncontrolled overwhelming flood of illegal Muslims do you think for even one moment that the Bishops would consider that to be the top social-justice issue? Of course not and that it why their advocacy of immigration “reform” is so flagrantly self-serving.

I was a member of the a union for 32 years while working for Ford and during that time became convinced that unions have outlived their usefullness. There was a time when they served a great need, but now their all about greed, selfcenteredness and laziness by the work rules they demand, although they’ve finally relaxed some of those demands the last couple years after they nearly drove the American auto company’s out of buisness, not to mention their blind continued support of the pro abortion party…..

@Steven,

TLDR.

Wrote an essay on this -  http://goo.gl/2hwsz

Steven - that’ a lot of cutting and pasting off Huffpo. You do know that the federal unions don’t have collective bargaining, don’t you? You are using issues from the 19th century and pretending they are still germane. By your logic, Jim Crow must still be alive and well.

I am interested in your concept of ‘heretical.’ Rather, isn’t it a moral wrong to support organizations that support Planned Parenthood and NARAL? According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, yes. I assume you are trying to apply Caritas in Verite and Rerum Novarum to justify your argument. Nonsense. Neither defend collective bargaining in this context…if they do at all. You see, I have read both works carefully; I don’t just use the Washington Post’s ridiculous faith columnist’ hack work.

If the union leadership in Wisconsin were truly interested in their members, they would have sat down with Walker. Why is he going after collective bargaining? Better to have one fight than 110 - that’ how many municipalities there are in Wisconsin. By pushing the fight now, Wisconsin will be spared 100 separate lawsuits.

To compare Solidarity to what’s going on in Wisconsin and Ohio is ridiculous. Those drawing those comparisons are either being deceitful or demonstrating a shocking ignorance of history. Reagan was defending Solidarity’s right to exist after the Soviet-controlled puppet government illegally outlawed the union. Nice try.

As to your willingness to allow future generations to soak up unprecedented amounts of debt - shame on you. That is hardly Christian…just read Matthew 25:14-30 (the parable of the Talents). On a practical level, about a trillion dollars has been poured into stimulus plans - and there has been no resurgence. In fact, the GAO reported that an alarming amount of that money was consumed by administrative costs and creating more layers of government.

I recommend that you stop consulting some of the ‘progressive’ sites that claim to be Catholic. The Encyclicals you mention do not support your arguments. You sound more like a Unitarian than a Catholic, sir.

Rose, I used to feel like you do when I was much younger. But let me ask you; do you also enjoy your health, vacation, retirement packages? You can’t have it both ways. Those benefits and the best one of all, tenure, were negotiated for by a union, supported by the members’ union dues, (no free lunch for anybody) on behalf of the teachers in whatever public school district you wanted to teach in. When a person decides to work for a closed shop school district, library, public safety department ... whatever it might be ... or even a private firm where the employees are represented by a union, you or anybody else cannot expect to just come in and benefit from the hard labors and sometimes very nasty long arguments held into the wee hours of many nights ... and receive all the goodies without having to contribute your own fair share. No free lunches at all. 
  What amazes me is that the very people who are doing whatever they can to create more “right-to-work” states are often the same people who don’t mind tossing thousands of people off the welfare rolls, unemployment rolls, cutting WIC and other necessary Head Start programs ... all to save tax dollars; while at the same time they use whatever tactics they can to bust up unions through divide/doubt n’ conquer methods again, ostensibly to “save taxpayers’ dollars” yet they show no problems whatsoever with paying future higher taxes that’ll be needed to make up what it’ll cost us in the many years to come no thanks to the billionaire’s estate tax gutting. That’ll reduced billions needed for education spending that would’ve made its way to each state house for further distribution to local school districts, thus enabling property taxpayers to avoid the strong likelihood of more property tax hikes.   
  Rose, if you want to complain about “having to pay,” there’s a much fatter target. Your rising property taxes, state taxes and federal taxes will be used for paying off the bill we and our children and grandchildren will be paying off in order to help make sure Helen (Wal-Mart) Walton’s heirs will, in perpetuity, be able to say they were born between 3rd base and home with no player covering the plate. By the way, the bill for this pay-to-play scam is higher than the bailout for Wall Street in September of ‘08, which for the most part has been paid back. We may NEVER finish paying this billionaires bailout, a bailout that will hurt public education for decades, not to mention keep gouging the American taxpayer in multiple ways.

There is a huge conundrum when speaking of Unions between the Good that they brought (past tense!) through, the advent of basic worker rights, to health and safety and overall quality of life for all american workers, not just union members, (true trikle down !). As time has passed, we have the development of more responsible government legislation to enforce basic health, safety, worker rights, and etc. which has gone to aid all american workers. All these things supported the Gospel and the Bishops and the Church were right to support the unions in this way.

As time has passed, the case for unions has turned upside down, when seemingly overnight, unions have supported issues, which contavene the Gospel and increasingly are destructive to all human rights. Union intrangence, in light of world market forces, are driving jobs out of our country at a frightening rate. Union $upport of increasingly marxist/socialist policies are making them moral pariahs.

This blind greed for money and power over human rights is destroying the union movement and american life, economy and morals.We are standing on the precipice and the unions are pulling us all over the cliff.

Are unions useless? In their present form ? YES
Can unions reform themselves? Doubtful
When unions put the needs of the lowest paid member as their highest priority, and the highest paid members take the layoffs, then they will be on the right track.

There is a place for unions who place human righta, quality of performance and worker responsibility on par with worker rights and worker pay.

“Maybe the Church should give their employees secretaries, teachers, housekeepers, janitors, daycare workers and priests the same benefits that these union workers are geeting.  Then how many more schools, churches, hospitals etc. would be closed down. You can’t expect the Sunday collections to cover that JOKE.”

I’m not asking to make as much as these union workers, but I think many Catholics are unaware that the national average salary for a full-time youth minister hovers around $25k/year (for a job with regular 60+ hour weeks). As for secretaries and the like, I know one parish employee who puts in a full-time work schedule and gets paid $13k/year (no, I didn’t mistype that). What are church employees supposed to do to negotiate for better wages? Threaten to go to work for the Lutherans down the street? We love the Church too much and get paid dirt in return.

Steven…“What does teaching homosexuality have to do with union rights?”
you have asked. You are asserting that the only real and valid issue at stake in the Wisconsin “battle” is that of collective bargaining. While one would think that is the sole issue given the media coverage it is NOT the only important thing at stake if the unions manage to pull off the defeat of the Govenor’s measure. Why do I sat/think this?
Very briefly let me say up front that given its long history unions have
been a positive force in the life of the average worker. However in more recent times workers rights are not as much the issue as the grasp for economic and political power by the union leaders who use their funds and influence for mainly electing liberal Democratic leaders who in turn for the most part promote the culture of death that Pope John Paul vehemently fought. Today’s union differs vastly from your grandfather’s union. The teachers union is responsible for much of what is wrong with education in this country today by protecting the careers of poor quality
educators and promoting educational programs that support the culture of death…including the teaching of homosexuality as an alternate life style to children as young as kindergaren age. To say that collective bargaining is the ONLY issue at stake here is way too simplistic. And characterizing those who are pro-life
as a “newly balkanized bunch of crybabies” is really telling as where you really stand on the life issues! I believe that wherever we can fight this abomination, wherever there is an even remote (and as I say this particular fight is hardly remote)connection we must make the effort.

MMOConnor….Yes, isn’t it interesting how the USCCB seems to reflect more the agenda of the Democratic Party (where it serves their own self-serving agenda…$$$$$$$)than it does that of the Christ to whom they have sworn their allegiance. Not all the Bishops are so myopic but as a group they are not much more than a political effete organization of “good ol boys”....not the stuff of the Good Shepherd!

Steve ( not to be confused with Steven I assume!)...You have made the argument against unions in a very concise and informative manner. Watch your back though…there are alot of Pro-Union Democrats commenting here
who will try to slice and dice your very good arguments against the present day unions and their control over the American political and social scene to the benefit of the powerful bosses and sadly against the little guy, the worker. Where were these unions when all the good jobs slipped out of this country? Oh, I forgot…we were re-distributing the wealth! Another accomplishment of
government/unions gone wild with the liberal agenda. And I am including the RHINO’S here as well who went along with this under the guise of the Trilateral Union. This is a real golden opportunity (in Wisconsin)to begin to right some of the terrific wrongs done by these organized thugs!

@Anon:  Yes, when you work for “The Church” you do get paid less.  My children were taught by nuns and lay teachers.  The lay teachers knew that they would not get paid as much as a public school teacher. That was considered “volunteer time” and their donation to the church (they were not expected to put monies in the collection plate). When (my children) were in H.S., again, some secular teachers were hired and we then paid a tuition. Today, it costs over $10,000 a yr for each student who attends a Catholic school here in Charlotte, because there aren’t ANY NUNS.  When I worked in our church office, I did not get paid, that was my volunteer job.  I would think that most people do volunteer work today.  If you want pay, and need that pay check for the family,  then work for the public sector.  As one Pastor said “if everyone did their share of volunteer work for the church, so much would not fall on the few who do”.

What does concern me is what Steve said about the money spent on “things” in the church. Why do we need all these fancy, expensive churches, to honor God?  I don’t believe God is pleased by material honoring. I spent years going to a church in a grade school “gymnasium turned church”. For some reason, everyone seemed more devout there.  Buldings don’t make the “Church”

As to labor rights—the unions have gone too far and the big-wigs are benefitting from it.  Yes, Steve, we do need OSHA, we do need to keep our workers safe, but the unions need to be overhawled also. The unions today are a BIG BUSINESS, we need them, but they need change.

Getting on to the immigrants—when I lived in rural Virginia and the Mexicans came to work the farms in the summer, our Pastor said Mass in half English,half Hispanic (for their sake) and we had a big picnic at the end of the season for them.  Our Pastor said, “we have to cater to the Mexicans because that was what the Protestant churches were doing and if we don’t, we will lose them.”  [Politics in religion again.] Everyone knows that the surge of immigrants in this country has caused a lot of problems, financially and otherwise.  We Catholics are suppose to be “giving” but we also have to be practical.  I often wonder what the Catholic Church says to the leaders of Mexico on how they treat their people.  Isn’t that the problem of the Mexican Gov. and not our Gov. Talk to a Californian about this problem.  We, in the U.S. cannot accept all the poor people of the world in our country. Is is not feasible. Our country gives a lot to the poor but I also believe “God helps those who helps themselves”  Mexico needs to do more for their people. 

Life is so complicated!!!

AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION:
The people protesting are not workers, they are state workers. It isn’t like they work for company that makes a product or provides a service and has a profit from which to pay a wage or disperse a share of wealth from. The state worker has a share in the spoils of taxes and the states monopoly to extort wealth from the economy. State workers protesting a reduction in their share of the remaining spoils is like a leach complaining when the host has no blood left to suck.

@Sue, I appreciate your argument, really I do.  I would gladly take your advice and work for the public sector except for one problem: I teach theology.  God called me to theology.  I am filling a void left behind by men and women religious, a position that is in-demand and that desperately needs professionals degreed in theology and catechetics (which I am).  So here I am, teaching for a school that makes hand-over-fist in tuition and has massive building projects, tons of new technology, and a student body that keeps the local BMW in business, but I don’t make enough money to be able to afford to make a home for my family.  Admittedly, it would be better if the schools were stocked with religious men and women.  If the Nashville Dominicans would set up shop here, I’d gladly seek work elsewhere in the Church, knowing that the souls of my students rest in their capable hands.  In the meantime, however, the Church needs my work, needs my capable hands, and has the nerve to pay far less than the standard teaching wage, not to mention an arm and a leg for benefits.  Now, yes, it is true: I didn’t expect to make a lot of money.  I still don’t.  I’m not asking for a fortune and I certainly don’t want to sound like the ingrates in Wisconsin, but this is a real problem.  The church needs employees, qualified employees, but isn’t willing to provide for the needs of their families.  Ask yourself what the church gets in return when parishes and schools aren’t willing to pay a living wage to her employees for the jobs she needs them to fulfill (it’s not like we’re just here to hang out; our services are needed and we’re asked to fill these jobs).  The church needs to pay a just wage, if for nothing other than to set an example.

@Steven - when you mention the so-called benefits resulting from the labor movement (vacation, weekend off, overtime,...), how do you know we would be without these if unions did not exist?  Maybe without unions, our taxes would be much lower, our government more efficient and effective, churches would be better funded, labor mobility would be greater, the cost of living lower, paid vacations longer, no need for overtime, family life stronger, ...  The point is that neither you nor anyone else knows how things would or could’ve turned out.  As you brought up, the KofC was formed to meet a need which was not being provided by business, unions or govt, but by ordinary people.

You also alluded to the union bastions of the Northeast.  Hmmm, fascinating how these enlightened states are also the states with consistent, year-over-year losses in population and jobs, confiscatory taxes / fees / regulations / economic stagnation.  They are also where you will find the greatest disparities in wealth!  (It’s interesting how union members who work for these bastions must live in slums and very-low-end housing or else move out to more Republican suburbs in order to afford to live.)

I’m glad to hear your social conservatism; we’re on the same page there.  But, if unions were good in the past, they have definitely changed for the worse.  Taxpayer money is nothing but a huge pool of funds for them to plunder.  (Large corporations seem to do the same, e.g., Goldman Sachs, AIG, GM, Citibank, US Steel,...  And, the super-rich also seem to do it… Bloomberg, Trump, Buffett, Soros, ...)  Knocking back the tyranny of present-day unions would be a boon to taxpayers as well as our economy.

A union isn’t really any different then the Corporation or State that the union was supposed to oppose. The people at the top of the unions fleese the people they represent same as the corporation or state might have done before the union. In the end the union members will be left empty handed but angry and blaming the wrong people for their woes. but they aren’t victims. They aren’t without culpability in this even if they are ingnorant or the true nature of their plight.

First of all, George, what the heck does “TLDR” mean? John, if you want to play the proof-texting game, why not refer also to the parable about sheeps and goats? Hmmm, “Whatsoever you did for the least of my brethren, you did unto me?” Remember that one, too? A lot of Republicans, especially this new breed of lean n’ mean Wisconsin Republicans might as well consider that parable as their personal donut hole or black memory hole insofar as it being one to help shape their guiding princples. Of course, I’m asking too much since it appears they get all theirs from the RNC, Cato, Heritage and AEI.
  As for the issues of abortion, homosexuality ... issues that are completely non-germane and ultra-extraneous to public employees defending their rights to engage in fair collective bargaining ... get with it. Are you any of you folks tut-tut’n the same unions that are helping to make sure you keep the roofs over your heads, clothes on your kids backs and food on your tables ... going to quit your public jobs, tell the banks to come get your keys and start buying your clothes at the Salvation Army and stand in food lines over an ideological fight? As I said above, I’m a social conservative. But I’m not an irresponsible fool when it comes to protecting my family’s fiscal security.
Mr. Konieczny—your above description of government employees, the same people who guard your homes, put fires out, teach children, feed the kids nutritious meals in schools for chump change, maintain sewer systems, guard prisoners and yes, let’s never forget this group, the people who defend our country—you, sir, just spat in their faces.

Yes John, I do read the Huff Post regularly. By the way, you should too, that is if you want to stand in good company with the Hiearchy, which in Wisconsin is standing with the UNIONS. Here’s a great article I just read a few minutes ago and I couldn’t think of a finer Catholic to share it with. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diana-butler-bass/god-in-wisconsin-scott-wa_b_828405.html  TOLLE LEGGE, brother.

workers only have a right to what’s legitimate. Collective bargaining against a corporation is a way that workers can get a reasonable amount of the profits of their labors, but it still must be done without making the company go bancrupt. I think a comparison of public and private sector wages is a fair enough guage that no one is taking advantage of the government workers.

MR STEVEN,
you are woefully ignorant of nature and purpose of many of the “blessings” you suggest are bestowed upon use by the State workers. Mr. Steven, what do you do for a living that you are so blind to the problems of state employment?  Every single example you gave is bloated with corruption from the top down and the bottom up. Every single government job is paid for with money that is either borrowed in the form of debt from our children, (which we abort) or from the private sector (that the state, and its “workers” have driven into the ground. Now that the music is stopping they are trying to pass the buck again but there is no one left to pawn the bill off too any more. NOBODY IS BUYING TEASURY BILLS STEVEN! The game is over. You can call it spitting in there face, you can say they earned it. I am just going to suggest to you, and to them, you better get real and real fast. The BS gravy train is at the end of the tracks buckos. If you think a petty little 5% contribution and the loss of extrusion leverage over the tax slaves who state workers and there unions lobby and pressure to pay pay pay is a big deal wait till even these little miniscule measures fail. It is going to be L.A. riots everywhere and we will see the true colors of these state workers shine right through.

Steven; the article - typically for the HuffPo crowd - is misleading at best. Roman Catholic bishops did NOT come out ‘on the side of unions.’ If you actually read THIS article, you would know that this if not the case.
I quote from the Bishop himself….

“As Catholics, we see both of these horns of the dilemma as good, and yet the current situation calls many of us to choose between these two goods. Thus the WCC [Wisconsin Catholic Conference] has taken a neutral stance, and this is the point of Archbishop Listecki’s recent statement, which I have echoed,” said Bishop Morlino.

Neutral stance. Neutral. This means that Ms. Butler, a person whom I am unfortunately far too familiar with, is wrong once again.

You are muddying the water. Are you inferring that the union employees fall under the category of the helpless? You must be kidding me. Even if this were in any way germane, the meaning of the scripture refers to individuals and not a local, state, or national government to tend to those in need. I - unlike you, I guess - am one of those Catholics who donate my own time, treasure, and talent. I don’t believe my Christian duty ends with voting for ‘progressive’ politicians who will use other people’s tax money for a slew of social welfare programs.

I notice that there has yet to be a valid counter to my assertion that it is better to have one big fight over collective bargaining - on SOME issues, by the way - then 110 separate fights in every town in Wisconsin. Yep, I said some things. If Walker gets his way, the unions will be able to negotiate salary and working conditions. They won’t be able to force deals like making the city pay for benefit contributions that the state won’t cover. That is the deal that most if not all public employees enjoy right now. You think that the ‘little ones’ still apply? Think about this - how many children will go hungry or without shelter because teachers, cops, and muni employees won’t start paying for a fair share of their benefits?

I am not going to spend any more effort explaining how there are doctrinal problems with supporting unions with close ties to the abortion industry. If you don’t understand it by now, it’s because you refuse to do so.

@anon: If your church charges exhorbitant tuition for the students and has massive projects going, and the parrish is basically a rich parrish, then the fact that you do not make enough money to support your family is the fault of your Bishop. [and basically a sin] You and your Pastor should speak to him. Your Bishop is not following the laws of God if he is not giving you enough money to support your family properly—or—talk to your Bd. of Ed. When my son was in H.S. his theologian teacher was teaching things contrary to Catholic teaching. I spoke to my Pastor,who was on the Board of this Catholic H.S. and he said “Sue, he is under contract, but I will investigate and if this is going on, he will not be here next year”  The following year that teacher was gone. You know, Anon, it would be different if you were teaching in a poor section of NYC, but a school with well-to-do parishioners?  You are needed, so speak up for yourself.  Good luck with it and I shall say a prayer for you.

Also as I mentioned in my last post, I often wonder what God thinks of all our fancy churches with gold, etc.  God is everywhere, not just in church—taught to me by the good Sisters. The Pastor I mentioned above quit the priesthood after 25 yrs. because back then they did not get a retirement and he did not want to go to the “old priests home”. I think they do today. Again, it is the fault of the Bishop.

Here is an experience I had. In another state, my Pastor was suppose to live in the trailor next to our small church. Instead he lived in an apt. on top of another church. One day I went in there for something & could not believe the horrific filth there. I told my Pastor, next time the Bishop comes down, put him up in that trailer, that is where he expects you to live.  I guess I am down on some Bishops, but they were the ones who messed up the pedophilia business also. 

I also had a [good] Bishop who was once my Pastor and he said that no priest or Bishop should live better than their parishioners.

Steven..“The Bishops of Wisconsin standing with the Unions”?? Why does it
send shivers up and down the spines of average Catholics..ones who support their faith and their parishes not only by regular mass attendance and the reception of the sacraments but in numerous other ways?
In that august body are you including Weakland and all the other “good shepherds” in Milwaukee?..who are enemies within the Catholic Church
that you are pointing out as beacons of light to be followed by faithful Catholics? The agenda of the liberal Democratic Party characterizes the culture of death that as defined by JPII. Education’s destruction is due to the corrupt unions. But the Bishops have kept them outof their schools not due to this rather because they refuse to pay a living wage ...As stated earlier all the good points that
have supported unions in the past are no longer applicable especially
where the average worker is concerned..And oh yeah, how about Card Check?
Isn’t that an interesting innovation the Bosses are trying to foist on the working union member. They might as well be wearing armbands with the old arm & sicke! Socialist and marxist thugs!! Unions have become a slush fund for the liberal/socialist wing of the Democratic Party. I pity the poor worker who is having to “cough up” huge union dues to support these political thugs! May God bless those in Wisconsin who are trying to correct these heinous practices and restore the unions to the benefit of those they pretend to represent!

Okay folks, take your chances on not having a union and see how far you get. You won’t get far. Not at all. If labor can be destroyed in Wisconsin, and don’t think for a moment this isn’t what the Koch Brothers have had all along, you can kiss the American Dream for the vast majority of the public that used to be the middle class off once and for all. Labor made the middle class what it is today and it’s the [general economic lifestyle] of the middle class that made America the envy of the world. I’d hate to see this happen to any of you, differing views notwithstanding.
  There are many reasons why the Northeast faltered, but unionism isn’t the major culprit by a long shot. Let’s see, there’s the right-to-work plantation-mentality economic climate, there’s the interstate system, and a host of tax-write off incentives dangled by states to lure businesses south. Sheep stealing’s not the only Dixie speciality. But let’s face it, the weather stinks up here. As I’m writing this, it’s a gorgeous final February day with gray clouds (lol) and the temps are just above freezing with yet still a foot of snow on the ground. Not only that, the people are grumpy as hell up here for most of the year regardless of what the weather’s like. They just love to be grumpy and crabby about a lot of things and let’s face it, it’s hard as heck to keep young folks around, never mind being able to attract new folks to come and stay up here.
  Man oh man, people up here get cold n’ grumpy in Church as well. Now that’s one place we all have to learn how to leave the heavy debates outside and put on more smiles, considering where we’re at and Who’s in that Tabernacle in front of us if not in Father’s hands during the Mass. New England Catholics really have to lighten up and be more friendly to “auslanders,” or anybody outside their particular ethnic grouping, town or just their parish surroundings.
  Back to economics! Taxes alone aren’t the primary reason people leave here either because some states are bargain basements, take New Hampshire. (Please! lol) But you get what you pay for. Up there they have whopper property taxes no thanks to not having any income or sales taxes. Their short tollway’s no bargain, however. In Massachusetts, taxes are far less than what most people outside the state have been lead to believe. We pay a 6.25 sales tax and our income taxes hover over five percent flat. What throws every body off guard are the awful nickel n’ diming fees for drivers’ licenses, lab fees (talk about extortion!) and the like. Unions aren’t to blame for them. We have a not-always-so-Great & General Court (House) and Senate on Beacon Hill to thank for those gems and “Welcome to Massachusetts” greetings.
  I take very strong objection to Michael’s under-the-belt swipe at government employees. Having worked in the public sector (two different state governments) the Federal Courts and academia (both private and public realms) I can say without any doubts whatsoever that the quality of service and workmanship anybody will find in the public work sector is as good as if not better than any other sector. Unions can be thanked for making sure of this as well because in the places I worked for, no union steward went out of his way to defend a deadbeat just because he was a union member. More often than not the steward valued the overall reputation of his fellow workers, the place where they worked and the value of the service they worked to render than to allow a deadbeat bring down the reputation of everybody else. Could I say this kind of dedication was to be found everywhere. Of course not with people being people, but in fairness to government employees, unionized or not, the taxpayers are getting far more “bang” back for their bucks than what so many rigidly set ideologues who just love to trash the public sector at any moment it suits their fancy.

I grew up as a military dependent, lived around the country and overseas in North Africa and Germany; my mother worked as a public servant and my two brothers served long and honorable careers in the Army, and teaching in public higher education. My wife worked for 12 long years as a food service employee in our h.s. alma mater until her department was gradually privatized.  Thankfully her union enabled her and several other workers to stay on as town employees and be able to continue receiving health, vacation, personal time off benefits ... WHICH THEY EARNED EVERY PENNY AND DOLLARS WORTH. Due to the tight labor market in our area and in her field, she had no choice but to continue working at the same place, doing the same tasks, but for a private employer, receiving fewer paid-time off benefits, which made a huge negative difference this year due to the number of snow days, not to mention having to find a new health insurance carrier. (While I agree a lot of people reading this website abhor Obamacare, and I had many doubts, esp. concerning abortion, I can say thank God he made darn sure no “preexisting conditions” could be used to block somebody from getting health insurance. My wife had a mild tumor removed from her nose prior to “switching jobs” and having to take our local “public option.” She could’ve been refused outright if she’d taken a private company if that was the only choice and there was no law outlawing this odious form of discrimination. Things don’t look as rosy in the private sector. We are grateful my wife has employment. Yes, she received a pay raise, but we have to wait for unemployment which she qualifies for to make up the difference when school’s out. (Watch, some Limbaugher smarty will sneer, “welfare bums.” I can’t stop anybody from thinking what they want to think or write, but if they want to do so at the peril of looking like a mean-spirited cheapskate, be my guest. Heck, take a shot at me, too since I’m disabled and on SS. But I paid and qualified for it, and medicare and that doesn’t come free, either. Taxes are also taken out of my monthly checks.
  When I read comments like Michael Konieczny’s, I just sadly shook my head. They reflect the bile of somebody like Glenn Beck’s mindset moreso than a person who’s on top of the situation and is willing to engage in a good give n ’ take philosophical “argument.” I had to draw the line on his comments, not only for myself, my family, but the many, many good and honorable public servants I’ve had the privilege to know and work alongside with, regardless whether or not we belonged to a union.

“Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, a Republican, recently extracted key concessions on pensions and health benefits for public employees, but he still wants an end to their right to collective bargaining — a right denied public-employee unions in some U.S. states.”

This is an inaccurate statement.  Walker is proposing to LIMIT the right of public unions to negotiate on benefits.  As the Governor has pointed out, FEDERAL unions do not have the right to bargain over wages and benefits.

Before 1789, the Church was hated because it had become part of “feudal” society, forming the first estate on top of the aristocracy and in close alliance with the monarchy and aristocracy. Never mind that it used its wealth to educate, and to provide social services.  Most bishops were aristocrats and the priests generally from the “lower” orders. When the monarchy collapsed, the Church was caught up in the destruction. In the United States, the Church was from the beginning part of a despised minority, mostly working class. By the 20th Century, Catholics as a whole had raised themselves to about the same level as the general population and labor unions were part of this rise.  Urban Catholics were the strength of the city machines which played an important role in the Democratic Party. Therefore the Church—and the bishops—acquired a great deal of political power.  After the ‘60s, however, that power ebbed away, as the unions declined and as social liberals took control of the Democrats Party and eschewed the anti-communism that had helped bind Catholics to Democrats such as Truman.  Certain Catholics sought by emphasizing social justice and muting their opposition to social liberalism to remain relevant, to “prove” their good intentions to liberals who hated the Church. We can see how this worked out.

Just to demonstrate I read more than the NCRegister and HuffPost, I found some ENCOURAGING NEWS ON CNBC’S SITE IN THIS STORY THIS MORNING:“Some GOP Leaders Soften Tough Talk On Unions.” http://www.cnbc.com/id/41765882?__source=otbrn|outbrainext|&par=otbrn&__source=otbrn|outbrainext|&par=otbrn
  Sure, the battle’s far from over. However, if Walker’s GOP gubernatorial colleagues are willing to step back and take a breather, shouldn’t Walker do likewise…if he has any sense or signs of any political smarts remaining? Or is he willing to just play the role of a handy Khaddafi for the Koch brothers to use at will?
  Well,  Walker seems to have some hard-line allies remaining in the Missouri GOP that’s itching to not only BUST the Show Me State’s public unions, but also strip away laws banning child labor. What’s next, some Republican lawmaker filing legislation to re-instate the old poor farms and debtors’ jails? Give ‘em time.

If you’re “encouraged” Steven than the rest of us better get worried. You continue to ” spout ” the Union Label anthem..regardless of what you read!
Govenor Walker does not want to end unions..he wants to restore them to
the position from whence they came..to a time when they truly represented the workers’interests…before they were taken over by the thugs that today
are usurping power and money from the workers for their own greedy ends.
Imagine if they get their way regarding Card Check..Also Govenor Walker is not trying to destroy unions…just union bosses, particularly public worker unions which never should have been unionized in the first place.
Leaders from both parties..just about every President from FDR opposed
strenuously the unionization of government workers. It will not work as
the situation in just about every state that has them shows!

We have been warned about the dangers of state workers being allowed to unionize. now we, and the poor folks who have been employees of the state, are suffering those consequences. well, we will be.

“Thugs”? Grandmothers, teachers, cops, firefighters, the people who operate the public utilities that the ever so benign Scott Walker wants to privatize into the hands of his private sector backers, or perhaps the Koch brothers who have businesses dealing with wood supply and have their eyes set on Wisconsin’s northern forests? What kind of “union” would a Scott Walkerized union look like? A toothless, spineless creature. Oh yes, the “boneless wonder” Winston Church joked about in Parliament.
  Wake up and realize that this being manipulated by the two most influential auslanders and freebooting political Daddy Warbuck carpetbaggers the American political scene has seen come down the pike in ages. They want to BEGGAR YOU and to do that they start by injecting one wedge issue after another until everybody’s at each other’s throat. They have near endless amounts of cash to pull this off, far more than the unions do. But why are they going all to BUST THE UNIONS in your state? Because it’s this simple:
  IF THE LABOR MOVEMENT CAN BE BUSTED AND CRUSHED IN WISCONSIN, IN A SHORT MATTER OF TIME IT’LL BE DEAD FOR THE REST OF THE NATION.
  If that happens, only the GOP will have fundraising abilities. Only the GOP will be able to field a competitive slate of candidates in all ranges and slates for various offices across the land, and we’ll be a one-party nation. Our national congress and state governments will become little more than rump versions of what they were designed to be; but worse yet, they’ll become more like the politburos of the old Soviet Union and today’s China. Ironically enough, labor movements are beginning to rise over there.
  The GOP and their Daddy Warbucks Duo, the Koch brothers, are trying to accomplish what Mubarak could only dream of: without having to rely on tanks and hired thugs, they can maintain a firm hold over a beggar’d society where only a few people will live dignified lives. A non-union workforce where the public is expected to live out their lives much like Oliver Twist and had darn well better learn not to ask “More.”
  Oh, they tell you that if only the unions and Democrats and their big government ideas were a thing of the past, we’d all have more money left in our pockets. DREAM ON. Very few people would have any real extra money left because without a union or at least another political force to provide checks and balances and a voice for the working people, we’ll nothing but a eliteocracy OF THE BOSSES BY THE BOSSES AND FOR THE BOSSES.
  Careful what you ask for; ask anybody who’s worked for the sweatshop factories in China or the sugar fields in the “workers’ paradise” on that island just south of Florida. They can tell you what happens when there’s only ONE PARTY and the workers LOSE ALL THEIR RIGHTS.

I am a teacher - in a state where we quite haven’t abused the public trust…and treasury… to the extent that some public unions have. I am not ashamed to be a teacher or that I make a decent living. I work hard and I change lives. This whining and crying about the poor working class is tiresome. People need to realize that through abuses in collective bargaining, Wisconsin public employee unions managed to negotiate deals that left them contributing nothing or next to nothing to their own pensions and insurance plans; the state picked up some and the munis picked up the rest. Why? The government negotiators took the easy route - after all, there are always grants from the state and the federal government. The bill won’t come due until after I’ve left office. Or any number of excuses.

Those people comparing the Wisconsin protesters to Egypt and Tunisia is patently absurd. Comparing Koch to Ghaddafi? Insane..or inane, whatever works. Next, we’ll be hearing about how Catholic Che was.

For those libs who are screaming about the importance of collective bargaining, ask Mr. Obama why federal employees don’t have collective bargaining.

Steven…There is alot of latitude betweeen what the unions evolved from
the beginning into what we have today….and Chinese sweatshops and
what changes the Govenor of Wisconsin..( and the govenors of all states
that are about to succumb financially to union excesses )proposes to
come back from the brink of finacial disaster. And yes,thugs, in many
instances, as in Jimmy Hoffa’s ilk!!!I agree comparing Tunisia and Egypt political protests a far cry from what is happening here…but be careful, as there are those that will use these protests in order to bring about the revolution they are seeking! Say your Rosary every day
that they are not successful…as your Mother in Heaven instructs us!

Steven, I applaud your remarks and concur with you, as well as with those of some of the more moderate union supporters in the comments I have read. Whatever happened to the message of Jesus Christ’s Sermon on the Mount, lost in the echoes of the Catholic Church, which we often find sitting on the fence so as not to offend anyone. We have all kinds of “informed” blather from the “conservative” elements who get their info from where? ... conservative blah, blah, blah talk radio/TV ... and who think they know the score while in the meantime they’ve been set up. Like you, I will receive comments of rebuke from some armchair pundits, actual pundits and reactionary Catholics; people who rip Huffington Post as though it’s viewpoints are invalid; and some of their points may be valid since I tend to be on the far left on most issues, not always agreeing with all Church stances yet remain Roman Catholic. Thank God our sinful Church is expansive enough to include us all. That, even, in spite of associating mostly with former Catholics who’ve found more Christian type values in Buddhism, Unitarianism or Humanism ... much like Mohandas Gandhi had. Yet, having said this, while staunchly defending the public unions, all unions, and the rights of collective bargaining, I am still pro-life ... pro all-life as all life is sacred and the right to life extends to everyone and in every country, not just to the un-born. So many of the folks I work for and attend church with, both Republican & Democrat, listen to Rush, Savage[not Dan], Beck & company. Will it take actually sending them to the poorhouse for them to wake up or will that be Job’s delight for them?

  Re the state of the state: Yes, union people usually make good pay and have good benefits. Both grandparents, my dad and uncles were all military and union workers ... RR, Ladish Co., Allis Chalmers, Electrician’s Local, etc, yet I grew up relatively poor. I paid dues with Teamsters and the Longshoremen many yrs ago. We worked for our pay & benefits. My question is, why, instead of ragging on the unions, are not a whole lot of people who are working equally hard, working 2 jobs and so forth, not doing half as well as those in the unions?  Those in the unions joined because there were benefits to be had and most have worked hard to remain in the unions and keep those benefits. How fair is that to pull the carpet from under them, esp when they have years of service? Especially under the rubric of calling it helping the economy? Especially since some of their benefits/pension’s are deferred compensation ... quid pro quo wages. Why isn’t Walker and many in political circles not calling publicly for an end to the unethical, sapping, immoral wars, the so-called War on Terror, killing and terrorizing innocent civilians [over 90:1] and blowing our equity, both in treasure and stature? All Wisconsin would need to balance the budget, according to Robert Greenwald, is to bring home 150 troops, @ a million dollar’s per troop, and there would be no shortfall. Ending the occupation in Afghanistan would keep 1.7 billion in the state immediately, this year, and we wouldn’t even have to think of robbing more from the middle class to make up deficits. Unfortunately, “the wars” are the elephant in the room that people conveniently ignore when making their comments. Just how just is it that the super wealthy are not being held to acct by contributing a fair share yet those in the middle on down are expected to do more than their fair share.

  The same is true of the shortfalls in all the other states in the Union; hmm, I just had a bulb go on ... ‘union’! My good friend C.W. writes that the National Association of Manufacturers has long had a motto that goes, “Alone We Are Weak, Together We Are Strong”. He states, “Now if directors of huge, competitive corporations realize and accept the necessity for themselves to join forces for strength, why on earth would everyday working people give any credibility to [the statement] ... “Be individuals, be self-reliant, you don’t need unions, only incompetent bums need a union. Trust us”.” Heck, do we not have a union of “United States” for strength? Hello, are you following? Sorry, folks, I’m afraid the ‘bust the union’ theme is another way to divide us. Again, according to C.W., and I’ll paraphrase to keep the verbiage down: government budgets in America are in trouble for 3 basic reasons: Our state & federal tax policies since the Reagan years have done nothing if not favor the super rich and the corporations. The military-industrial-media complex with the escalating cost of empire and wars waged benefitting defense contractors, multi-nationals, their mercenaries and the super-wealthy in a myriad of ways to the tune of ever increasing tens of billions per year. [How much do you want to bet that those employees make a better than average wage and have great benefits ... union or not? Why, and what’s wrong with that picture?] Finally, let’s give credit where credit is due ... The greatest problem today, [other than the destruction of the environment & global climate change] is the worldwide economic crisis caused by the largest fraud and larceny ever perpetrated in world history with it’s massive and tragic consequences for the entire world. This was intentionally perpetrated by huge, transnational interests and neither party nor any aspect of government has taken the steps for 1) prevention 2) prosecution 3) recovery. I’d look here first to cast the blame and not some working stiffs, some who probably barely manage for their family. You’re denying them that?

  If you do a search engine on ‘the sole remaining stupidpower in the world’ written by David Michael Greene, you will find that his article states the obvious so succinctly and so much better than can I as to how and why we find ourselves in the brutal position we are in. Many on this site won’t like it a bit because he’s talking to you. I have been talking and writing about this for years to deaf ears. Well folks, here we are and it ain’t pretty ... and it’s going to get far worse. What especially bothers me is the pettiness of some far right Christians who see what their brother or sister is earning and then claim that it is unfair. My, my, so petty.

Thanks again to Steven for standing on truth and against the odds. Thanks also for remaining steadfast in your Catholic beliefs and still leaning on the left ... a small minority, it seems, these days.

Why do people who use the word “fair” incessantly not see the unfairness in giving civil servants the kind of pensions that are seldom seen in the private sector anymore?  Or that the mandatory membership in unions and forced deductions from paychecks that are used to support political action rather than the narrower—and more useful activities—of helping teachers win grievances with often overbearing and incompetent principals?  A major change from teaching when I did my first year, fifty years ago, that one can actually earn higher salary and benefits by going to work with the union than continuing to teach. The union bureaucracies have exploded in the last twenty years or so.

Thank you very much Mr. Radoszewski! You just made my morning! Even though we’re a growing minority these days, my growing disgust with what’s become today’s contemporary “conservative movement” made the passage over far easier than many of my former ideological travellers could stomach or fathom.
  My suspicion is that the talking points machines working under the Koch’s growing empire of front organizations shilling for the glories of unrestricted libertarian capitalism are also being manned by people energetically working hard at finding this or that red meat item to toss into the issue, i.e., the positions of the state and national union headquarters’ on abortion and homosexuality for the sole purpose of distracting enough would-be supporters of public sector employees in Wisconsin to turn against their cause.
  “Uh, oh, we can’t support this bunch, lookie here what their national and state organizations are up to…or lookit at what this or that teacher did in X city, town or village ... my religious values prevent me from joining in solidarity with them.” If that’s the case, they should look at their health insurance policies and see what those companies already offer and for which they’ve been paying for along with coverage for the non-controversial matters. I hated paying for “termination of pregnancy” “procedures” too, but I was in no position to NOT take the best policy of a set of choices my employer(s) offered at the time.
  It’s easy to be a purist when the circumstances in one’s life are either very simplified by ideological/theological narrow mindedness or one doesn’t have a family to protect. And guess what, even the majority of the bishops in Wisconsin recognized this and have been willing to look at the wider picture in this crisis versus sitting in their ivory tower chanceries playing the perpetually smug pharisee.
  It’s really saddening to watch Catholics joining with the most smug of Evangelical Christians who’ve even turned their backs on the majority of most Evangelicals and mainline Protestants. When Catholics become as stubbornly stiff and cold in the way they cite this that and who knows what else paragraphs and sub-paragraphs in both the Catechism and Canon Law to pick out the faults of the other guys and the positions they’ve taken ... and lock arms with the oddly growing “Jesus and me” crowd within Evangelical Christianity, the same crowd whose spiritual ancestors, the first Fundamentalists of the Twenties who dropped the Social Gospel of the more moderate-to-liberal Protestants in the cities, there’s something really missing in the way that many of our fellow, albeit more rigidly conservative Catholic members, are both receiving and interpreting the Faith. What next, are they going to join the Walkers of the world in turning their backs on the rest of the world after buying into the “end is near and we might as well get or save as much as we can for ourselves before it all does come to a crash” pseudo-teaching? How many of our more rightist conservative Catholics have been reading that LaHaye stuff? Or how often do they listen to Limbaugh, or worse, the outwardly anti-Catholic and [unrepentant] apostate, Glenn Beck.
  I purposely qualified Beck as unrepentant because there are many “apostate” fallen away Catholics who want to come back and have, I being one of ‘em. But sadly enough, the Church I’ve left Evangelical Christianity to return to has in some ways jerked far to the right. Thankfully the majority of the bishops in Wisconsin rejected that path in the area of social/economic justice and see the wider picture. It’s called using one’s prudent judgment. All the more reason J for you and I to support them in our prayers as they stand vigilant with the protesters and serve as a bulwark against the views of Madison’s bishop and Fr. Sirico. (I haven’t been able to catch it, but I can only imagine the treatment Ray Arroyo gave to the respectfully protesting peaceful protesting public servants and their supporters.) Mr. Arroyo and I both attended the National Journalism Center in Washington, DC, a conservative journalism internship program. Great program and I’m indebted to the training I received ... which was far less ideological than what I’m afraid the young interns seem to be getting now. That girl who posed as the hooker in the ACORN scam with Joseph O’Keefe would’ve been tossed out in two nanoseconds back in ‘83.
  This is the crux of the problem: conservatism used to reflect a “hey, no, let’s not go overboard with this or that…” attitude in years past. Nowadays its leading mouthpieces show no signs of respect for conducting sensible discussions, fair reportage, and it all smacks of a “now it’s our turn to get even” with this big liberal bogeyman of the snooty northeastern eggheady crowd or their lefty-hefty cousins in Hollywood. (They never publicly admit how many of their ranks also attend many pricey schools in the northeast.)They’ll sneer at Saul Alinsky’s ideas and they put them right to work no sooner than they’ve finished texting them for use by somebody else.
  They’ll shamelessly shill for the Koch brothers or people like them; men who are NOT conservatives, but libertarians, pseudo conservatives that real thinking conservatives like the great Russell Kirk would flick off as heretics, “chirping sectaries,” he called libertarians. The Kochs shamelessly fund Tea Party and die-hard ideological GOP hacks to cut the daylights out of the budget, “to help create jobs,” but they fail to say what gutting PBS ... which the Koch Brothers have funded greatly, along with the Smithsonian, Lincoln Center and other fine institutions which work hand in hand with PBS ... will do to SAVE JOBS.
  They can’t speak about saving jobs because their mantra FORBIDS telling the truth about all these cuts they know are but window-albeit very painful window-dressing grandstanding hatchet jobs that won’t put people to work. I applaud the gutting of Planned Parenthood, but did you hear one of those concerned pols worried about the debt we’ll pass on to our kids regarding the debt say anything about what 50 million abortions did to the future of our Social Security safety net programs? Inasmuch as I was disappointed that mentioning this real long term cost was left wanting, it’s probably just as well since they would’ve dropped the Pence Amendment to gut PPF if they thought for a second that doing anything to save the unborn and kill off a (deserved) political target would save SS. That’s how darn venal they’ve become; not that when it concerns abortion that the Democrats would have been any better and more started to wise up. A few brave handful crossed to join the GOP on that matter. But what did it do, along with killing many other truly valuable safetynet programs for young kids accomplish during that gutting frenzy to save jobs? ZILCH.
  If we think Walker and his pals, Daniels, Kasich and Christie are tough to deal with, the GOP has it’s own Southern Maggie Thatcher wannabe in South Carolina, Nikki Haley. She’s publicly said she was going to “talk smack” to Labor in the most right-to-life-state on the east coast, even surpassing Florida. Within weeks of taking office, Haley was smacked with a lawsuit in Charleston’s Federal Court for talking to Boeing about making sure a machinist’s union would not be hired for its proposed North Charleston plant.
  I can’t imagine anything more amorally reprehensible than this woman’s stand and actions in this matter when one considers that she’s deliberately seeking to prevent the hiring of the best machinists possible, union machinists and tool and die workers. They don’t take slouchers. They don’t want them because they treasure their craft and know full well that what they do for a living simply does not allow for any “goof room.” If a part becomes stripped in an airplane, at best, the parts are found in the routine checkups and replaced. It gets more problematic when a major part falls off and lands on somebody’s property, or worse causes a major and/or fatal injury. And of course, the biggest disaster is a crash. These things happen more often than we realize, and I’m not just referring to the bigger crashes. Just ask people living near large airports or Air Force bases where C5-A’s fly in and out of.
  Ah, but she’s a dedicated lady, holding true to her UNION-BUSTING nonsense, even at the risk of pushing the envelop of public safety. But that’s all part of the whole schtick this “lean n’ mean” crowd of GOP/TP puppets of the Kochs, multi-nationals are givng the public. I have no idea if the lawsuit will succeed. She can claim free speech and legally get away with this form of bossiness and interference on the grounds that she’s “delivering” on a campaign promise. But she and all the don’t-give-a-damn crowd will have a cold reception when it’s there Dies Irae moment.
  St. Peter’s reputation doesn’t bode well for “smack talkin’” pols, and that’s before they meet his Boss.
  Nor do I believe he’ll have much patience for people who’d rather follow the example of the pharisees than Jesus and his Apostles and their successors. Now I’m off to listen to some Pete Seeger! In Solidarity, J!

What I suspect about the Right Wing using religious/social hot button or red meat issues to divide and distract people from the real issues, Scott Walker’s basic scorched-earth UNION BUSTING campaign, one only needs to look at his own house for spiritual support and where it’s getting some of its ideas from, no less than Wallbuilders, which just happens to be DIRECTLY associated with Glenn Beck, no friend of the Catholics at all.
http://4scott.org/swpastors.htm  Click on this page, and drop down to the menu of sublinks where in the middle column, you’ll find “Wallbuilders.”
  What a coincidence, eh?

@Steven:

Well, if by “union-busting,” you mean to take away privileges that its leadership maybe out not to have. For instance, deciding to use union dues to support candidates that a considerable minority of its members do not vote for. Unions more or less blindly support Democratic candidates because—well, they are the left-wing of the Democratic Party.  Not many years ago, well, in 1992, the NEA used virtually all its PAC money to Democratic candidates, even though 40% of classroom teachers preferred and voted for Republican candidates. Right-to-life organizations were not even allowed to set up booths in the halls was at the Convention, and got almost no podium time.  Now, do you really expect the Republicans to give a hang about what the unions think?  Don’t you concede that it is natural for them to try to stop what is obviously a corrupt practice, which is using
COMPULSORY union dues—that is, a kind of TAX on teachers—to fund the election campaigns of
one party?  And—I might—add, pay the salaries of any ever larger Union bureaucracies?

The Kochs seem to be the latest devil of the Democratic party.  I guess that it is OK for Soros to spend tons of money but no one else.

What I mean by UNION BUSTING is simply taking steps to destroy or severely cripple the union’s legal rights to represent its members in negotiations with management on matters of wages, benefits, and other contractural work-related issues. As for the internal workings of handling if and how certain controversial political/moral issues should be promoted by the union, that’s up to the members themselves to find ways to band enough members together to change these stands or vote out the people promoting them. I’ll admit that unions have not behaved in stellar fashion insofar as mixing and imposing controversial issues down their members throats, so to speak. But I sure as heck wouldn’t allow outside forces representing business and political front organizations
to worm their way into the union for the sake of spreading distractions leading to dissention and eventual defeat.
  Face it, this Scott Walker is a pawn, plain and simple. He showed his lack of political acumen, maturity and his very anti-labor colors when he was caught by that prankster. I’m surprised that Charles Koch was so eager to defend this guy in the Wall Street Journal. But since they put so much into him and this top-down/gubernatorial putsch already, they’re figuring they might as well dig in and salvage what they can, even if it means ideological trench warfare. Ahhhh, but they must be delighted with that Dixie darling in Nikki Haley. Now there’s some cat who knows how to bare her claws in no time flat, the mere fact she had no legal business butting in the way she did in that Boeing matter, notwithstanding. See, after all, if they catch Walker losing a little nerve, they can always point to Haley and say, “C’mon Scott, that Haley in SC is showing some manly courage down there.”
  And he’d be dumb enough to buy into that sexist plodding, too. After all, isn’t that what they teach about guys having to show “who wears the pants” in those arch-arch conservative Evangelical Bible Churches?

@J. Radoszewski

“What especially bothers me is the pettiness of some far right Christians who see what their brother or sister is earning and then claim that it is unfair. My, my, so petty.”

Thus there is the problem - the lack of understanding the issue. 

Liberals all seem to have a generic defect that prevents their minds from being able to focus on the specific issue at hand.  Instead, they drift into their inner world of holier than thou and reposition their playroom of reality to resemble what they think they heard; and come out of it pontificating their moralistic errors.  This is dangerous stuff.  Innocent people lose their lives as a consequence; non more so than unborn babies totaling over 51,000,000+ with no end in sight in our country alone.  It is that kind of thinking by so called Catholics that is responsible for abortion-on-demand remaining the law-of-the-land, and enables such Catholics to vote for a self acknowledge pro-abortion, pro-infanticide man for President of the United States.  And these kinds of Catholics have the superior intellect and angelic morality to tell everyone else how much money we could have to pay debts piling up on us by greedy government union bosses and their self interest union members if we would only bring our troops home from fighting the unjust, immoral wars they accuse us of being in.

Something you said in your above quote, J. R., reminded me of another Catholic’s perspective on a very focused issue. And like you, he exited his make believe world of reality with a better way of dealing with that issue.  That was Cardinal Bernardin, of the Archdiocese of Chicago, who accepted the Chairmanship of the Prolife Committee on the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, which was vacated unexpectantly by the sudden death of its founding chairman.  He accepted the chairmanship on the condition that he could change the meaning of the word prolife, to make it “more appealing to a vast array of others” and to make it a “more cohesive and consistent position that recognized a spectrum of prolife issues” which” would energize the priest, clergy, and laypeople in direct contact with the Catholic population in a positive way.” (Based on what you said about yourself, I’m sure you see yourself in that statement.)  But the good Cardinal was motivated by another reason for making such a change.  “Not only would this move gain greater support from Catholics and others but it would keep the prolife movement from falling completely under the control of the RIGHT WING CONSERVATIVES who were becoming its dominant sponsors.  The latter, in the judgment of many, maintained a NARROW FOCUS that excluded linkage with any other issues, thus alienating large numbers of people who, although pro-life in their convictions, were convinced that the problem had to be placed in a RICHER CONTEXT OF MORAL CONCERNS.”  Thus, J. R., all the things you proudly alluded to as a post-birth-prolife-person are the things Cardinal Bernardin weaved into a pillow upon which you and other Catholics could cushion your guilty consciences.  A guilty conscience that was now soothed by being an anti-abortion Catholic while remaining a supporter of the pro-abortion party.

The issue in abortion is – abortion, not foreign policy, war, capital punishment, just wages, health care, etc, etc, etc.  It’s about the legality of murdering innocent babies and its moral impact on our culture.

The issue in Wisconsin that Governor Walker is addressing is – taxpayer debt created by the government’s past granting of collective bargaining to government unions in areas of health care and pensions, NOT wages.  The issues for Catholics is whether such a practice in dealing with government unions comports with the Church’s teaching on unions, specifically, the moral objective of providing for “the common good of the whole of society.”  The issue is NOT about the right to unionize per se, public or private.  It is not even about government unions being able to collective bargain over wages.  It’s narrow focus is on the cost to the government, i.e., all the taxpayers, of allowing government unions to collective bargain for healthcare and benefits. 

I think the evidence is clear that the past WI government’s decision to do so was not “for the common good of the whole of society.”  And the reasoning is simple – the corruption created by allowing such unions to contribute to electing government officials who turn around and reward such unions with generous wages and benefits that results in more money going to union dues to buy more elected officials, all paid for by the forced taxation of the taxpayers.  Government unions nation wide now represent 36% percent of the government employees.  Private unions represent only about 6% of the private business employees.  Union campaign contributions are funded mostly by government employment unions.  Total union campaign contributions for the election of Barack Obama for President were in excess of $400,000,000.  Almost all of those dollars came out of the FORCED payments of the taxpayers to government unions.

Just as the decision to expand the definition of prolife to include things that had nothing to do with the murder of innocent babies, has not been beneficial for the unborn, in fact it has made things worse for them; so, granting government unions in WI the opportunity to collective bargain over healthcare and pension benefits has not been beneficial to the whole of society, and in fact, has made things worse for them.

Steven..Do you really support the idea that union bosses should have more to say about how government is run and spends our $$$ than duly elected government officials…Union bosses are “elected” to direct union affairs..not governments! And how about educating us on where you stand on the infamous Card Check issue…being shoved down our throats by your oh-so-democratic union bosses???????????? my bet? Right in bed with your favorite guys..the union bosses! By the way…what position do you hold
within the union you belong to? Tell us the truth!

I agree with John Schuh: Talk about Union Dues being mandatory, years ago when I worked for a Hospice, we were given money by United Way.  The director said it would be nice “if we each ‘personally’ donated to the United Way”.  At least she did not impose it on us (she couldn’t)—-I did not like her even suggesting it, so I did not donate to them.  I have my own special place to donate. A friend who worked for the State Gov. said they HAD to give money to a “special cause”.

The Union did so much good many yrs ago, [early 1900’s] but they are now corrupt and it is sad that a politician, whoever, would cater to them, “because they donated money to their election”.  Our Government should not be obliged to any organization or person who donates money to them for election.  They work [for] and get paid [by] the people and should do what is best for the people at large.  Our country is in such a mess, in fact “everything” is.

@Steven

TLDR mean Too Long Didn’t Read, it’s used to poke gentle fun at people who write long, sprawling discussion posts. Not saying what you wrote is right or wrong but if I read every long winded post I would still be reading BBS posts from 1997.

correction.  “Liberals all seem to have a generic defect…” That should have been “genetic defect” not “generic.”

@George

“TLDR mean Too Long Didn’t Read”  Oh oh, I’m in trouble then.

George, no problem and it gave me a good chuckle. Something we all need. Now if I can just remember the sequence of the letters, when it comes to typing, it’s easy to get some letters mixed up.
  @Thirst for Truth. You asked a fair question thinking because of my earnest defense of the public employees and their unions that I might be a representative, official or regular member. But, I don’t belong to a union. I’m retired. My wife does and thank God she does because her union worked hard to make sure she and her fellow workers didn’t get hit any harder when their jobs were privatized by a school cmte ostensibly to “save taxpayers’ dollars” when her dept’s budget was very small to begin with. The cmte was made of mostly academic professionals who worked for the local universities and had beaucoup tenure. They picked on them to make a point to the other school employees: “If we’re tough enough to go down hard on lunch ladies who feed the kids, you’re next.” I suspected her state and national union might’ve backed some odious moral issues, but the union was fighting for her (and our) economic future. When I worked for the local state university where I live I belonged to the local NEA affiliate, MTA. BUT while working in Florida three decades ago, I sure as heck wish I had a union in the office I worked at, and I wasn’t the only one.
  Disgust with the way your union dues are used to promote ideas running completely against your moral values is perfectly understandable. But please don’t let this at this particular point in time distract you from seeing what the puppeteers Koch are up to, Walker and his new auslander buddies, Americans for Prosperity, Citizens United, the GOP, of course, and other front operations that the Right are using to tear the unions apart from within by manipulating people through hot-button social issues. This is what’s kept the GOP in business ever since Lee Atwater used Willie Horton against Mike Dukakis in ‘88. When you don’t have fresh ideas or the ideas you do have present a direct threat to the economic survival of the middle class to benefit the wealthy ... you have no choice but to put the cannister power of many whipped up fears in your cannons.
  There was no budget crisis before Walker did the brothers Koch’s bidding and started paying off his biggest campaign backers in private industry. When that job was finished, and voila, the same surplus former Gov. Doyle left Walker just happened to vanish, well…all of a sudden he starts his dirge, “We’re broke.” But the public sector workers and in the end, all Wisconsin will be paying for his sucking up to Charles and David Koch and the RNC in Washington. Because if he succeeds in crushing the unions in Wisconsin, a strong pro-labor state, there’ll be no stopping the other GOP governors and/or Blue Dog “democratic” govs, too.
  I do have one apology to make to Evangelical Bible Christians because I came across as very mean-spirited. My apologies. No excuses: I let my emotions get the best of me. Yes, there’s a portion of them who aren’t so worldly in their overall outlook and Scott Walker fits nicely into that sub-grouping. By and VERY large, they are good God-fearing and socially conscious Christians.  Remember, despite the liberals fixation with Wm. Jenning Bryan’s (mortal sin in their eyes) of prosecuting the teacher in the Dayton Monkey Trial, he was one of the most prolific liberal progressives to come out of the Midwest. Yes, I’m generalizing, but this nation had to wait till Hubert Humphrey to come along to carry his mantle. And we can all use another Hubert again.

Steven…You have had union experiences of your own and that of your wife which have been apparently to your way of thinking positive for the most part. As have many others! I doubt Gov Walker and many commenting here
are against unions per se…we know that long ago history…and we are not suggesting we return to sweatshops and unfair labor practices. All that is being suggested ( and really in the long run these suggestions would be beneficial to unions ) is that the current corruptions be halted and corrected…so that they are brought more in line with other non-union workers benefits and salaries…and correct the agregious disparities that benefit the few while penalizing the majority. That is all that the current Governor is trying to effect in this state…moves
that he promised to the voters who elected him over his opponent. Walker is going to keep that promise even in the face of political defeat from his opponents,cowards who have fled the state. Walker is doing the job he was elected to do…the missing senators are not..and are guilty of dereliction of duty! They should be impeached!!! I think that while you make all kinds of “union speech” you are really spouting the Democratic, liberal agenda much to the detriment of your state…and fellow voters who have expressed their wishes last November when they elected Walker. Let him do the job he promised to do. In the famous words of our President…” We won!”. and get on with the business of saving the state!
The unions will not be busted as you claim…a real “fear tactic!” Again, I ask you where you stand on that imperious total take-over being pushed by the union bosses and their elected friends known as card check?????
Sorry this has become TLTR ( too long to read) for most!

Thirst for Truth, don’t worry, your post wasn’t too long and it was interesting, though I still disagree. Surely, my views are colored on behalf of unions because of what they have done for my family. When I was younger, I was more conservative and more skeptical, generally holding to some of the same doubts you’ve expressed. But when I needed union help on a state job I had at the time, I was very fortunate that it came through; then and at another time decades later for both myself, and my wife, respectively.
  Walker, no matter how hard in your heart of hearts want to give him the benefit of the doubt for not being a UNION BUSTER, is just that, and at the behest and call of Charles and David Koch, owners of Koch Industries and the ideological godfathers of many right-wing right-to-work organizations and other front outfits whose goal is to turn the clock back on the middle class, and establish an elitist oligharchy, plain and simple. While the brothers have just recently become more widely known due to their role in starting the Tea Party movement, they’ve long been working behind the scenes to lay the foundation for the sudden frontal attack on organized labor that’s now underway throughout the Midwest, at least.
  Admittedly, the sites, I’m sharing have a strong leftist leaning, but it never hurts to check out their crosslinks. http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/01/charles-koch-welfare/
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/01/koch-polluter-bailout/ This latter link highlights Koch Industries horrible pollution record. The Kochs are really out for the power to control Wisconsin’s and every other state’s regulatory agencies, denude them of any regulatory powers and leave the people in the states they control at their mercy. They find patsies like Scott Walker who’ll start with stripping the unions of some of their power at first. This provides them the cover story that he’s not out to bust teachers and other public employees’ unions. His legislation, er Koch Industries’ bill, will, if enacted, leave the employees with just a rump shell with no real legal power of their own to engage in real contract negotiations.
  These guys don’t really care where you and I stand on the moral issues; they only care for making more money to further their empire of financial and political clout. Imagine what would happen if they created a media empire like Rupert Murdoch’s Fox “News” Channel and its satellite “entertainment” channels. Check out the “family fare” on Rupert’s other channels lately? But imagine the impact of yet another network with more Hannitys, Becks and O’Reillys. It’s all a power play. UNION BUSTING today, more freebie takeovers of once publicly owned utilities tomorrow, not just in Wisconsin, but in other states, too. Where and when will this power grab end? They want to monopolize the nation and if it means squeezing the middle class, which they view as an expensive bunch of folks representing a drain on their earning power, “so be it” to borrow from John Boehner.
  The middle class is what keeps this country from resembling France and Russia before their revolutions. Germany’s Chancellor Bismarck learned this well and created Germany’s social safety net programs to offset the harshness of the rapidly expanding industrial revolution the new empire was going through in the last half of the 19th Century. By bolstering Germany’s rising middle class and allowing for labor unions, he also created a huge and effective barrier separating the nobility from the poorer classes and Germany’s prosperity continued. Both the Koch brothers and their GOP/TP bucket-carriers, especially Walker, seem quite willing to turn our economic, social and environmental health clocks back to conditions matching those described by Charles Dickens.
  They’re going to grab all the marbles, and little by little, beggar the vast majority of us to live in a land where the fewest have the most money, be able to afford decent medical care and live in decent housing while the vast majority of us are forever living in fear of winding up like the Joads or the farmers who joined Daniel Shays in 1787.
  Walker’s NOT putting the interests of the people in Wisconsin first. He’s putting his fealty to Koch Industries and what now Sec. of State Hillary Clinton was ridiculed for calling a “vast right wing conspiracy” back in ‘97. The facts and connections now shout for themselves. If anybody’s putting the interests of their state first, it’s the Democrats who bolted the Senate rather than be cowed into voting for this banana-republic style bill Walker muscled through the Assembly. They’re willing to live in motels out of state rather than violate their consciences. We still respect putting our consciences ahead of dictators, right? You complain about not wanting to pay dues to support x, y or z position the union supports ... on the side ... but you’re not willing to see that these senators are putting their careers on the line because they believe what Walker (and his puppeteers) are doing is flat out irresponsible and immoral? Yes, they are supposed to represent their districts, but representing one’s district does not contain any mention of becoming a rubber stamp, unless the politician chooses to be.
  Even Abraham Lincoln while serving in Illinois’ legislature snuck out a window rather than be browbeaten into voting for a certain bill he didn’t approve of.
  You’d approve of the same tactics these senators are using if the Democrats in another state tried to ramrod a pro-abortion piece of legislation down their throats and they refused to be part of the legislative process. Right? Elected representatives/senators, whatever rank in whatever body they legislate in, are not required to participate in any process that would violate their consciences. By showing up, they’d give the pro-Walker forces a quorum and he’d get his whole kitn’ kaboodle approved.

@Steven

“I suspected her state and national union might’ve backed some odious moral issues, but the union was fighting for her (and our) economic future.”

Sounds like a similar excuse to defend ones rational for associating with the former white supremacists party, i.e., the Democrat Party; “they were fighting for our economic future.”  Same could be said by Germans Catholics during the NAZI reign and the “odious moral issues” they had; “but” they were “fighting for our economic future.”

Ahhh - the soothing excuse some Catholics use to numb what should be a guilty conscience.  What a wonderful useful word -“but” - is.

@Steven: ” By showing up, they’d give the pro-Walker forces a quorum and he’d get his whole kitn’ kaboodle approved”. What in the world is wrong with that? Except for the fact you’d be on the “losing side”. It is called democratic government..it is what these 14 senators took an oath to do…to help legislate and govern. Just because they don’t have the all people on their side, don’t have the votes to pass or defeat a bill, that does not give them the right to cut and run….that would lead eventually to anarchy. You cannot be serious defending these moral and political cowards. One stays the course! and lives for another day. Anyway, this is moot because I just heard that the Wisconsin senate has voted to bring these miscreants back…in chains if necessary to perform their obligations to their constituents…which includes everyone, not just the ones who voted for them. I know little to nothing about the Koch Bros.Industries but since you ( as a liberal Democrat ) are so vehemently opposed to them they must be successful Republican businessmen….who by the way probably employ alot of people in Wisconsin. Since Huffington Post seems to spend alot of ink about them I gather they are a thorn in the side of the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. Well, Steven maybe they will cancel out the hateful things done to this country by George Soros…however it would be next to impossible to find someone(s) who hates this country more than twisted old George…or spends more of his fortune to bring its demise about. I am not going to try to change your opinion re union benefits…for obviously you and your wife have gained much thru your membership. However in these times of near government insolvency would you not think it in order to give back some of that largesse ( I would remind you that in many ways you have had a free ride on the backs of those who paid for those benefits..no free lunches Steven, someone has paid) in order to help keep things afloat? After all
you will still be paying far less than the average non-union worker who
still pays taxes too but does not reap the same benefits you do? You still get to keep your benefits, most of your bargaining rights and your job if employed. You give a little…in order to make this a more secure nation. Isn’t that what the President of your dreams is telling us day in and day out? Also give Governor Walker a chance to do what he promised will secure Wisconsin a better, more stable future. There is always the next election to boot him out if you don’t like his performance. That is what the American way is…give it a try! Think postively…and stop reading/
listening to the Huffington Post..we know where they are coming from. As for Fox News? Come on….you can put up for decades with liberal control of all the print media in nearly all major US cities, control of the national networks and most of cable? but you can’t allow Fox News? ONE
cable network that reflects a more conservative view than yours? I agree it has most of the listening audience….and why is that? Might it be because it more often reflects the thinking of most of the people in the country? Steven, I am beginning to think you are mirroring the greedy attitude of your union bosses…you don’t just want your piece of the pie…you want it all!! For nothing in return!  Maybe therein lies your problem..you have been a union member for too long…getting ALL your goodies free for being loyal to the union….forgetting that everyone not in your big boat has been getting hosed and swamped. Now all that “free lunch” stuff has come home to roost ...the truth is out!!! Everybody is out of money ...and the piper has to be paid. You just don’t want to pay the piper Steven! You and a whole bunch of others have been led down the primrose path by your so-called leaders who have been using you to
promote their own agenda…a liberal, Democratic agenda! It’s time to
pay the bills friend…and this time you gotta pony up…at least a little. I would call you a cheap-skate..but you’re a nice guy I’m sure
and have just been a bit naive all these years. And anyway, what’s with
you and card-check that you can’t answer?

@Stillbelieve: I’ll let your direct comparison of public employees unions to the Nazi Party and white supremacists speak for itself and you.

Koch as become the liberal cuss-wrod of the movement. George Soros, the same for conservatives.  Fact is that the rich contribute to both parties, and Wall Street types support both.  We know that Warren Buffet and Bill Gates supported Obama.  By and large the corporations tend to be liberal, and small businesses less so, because they cannot dodge taxes as easily.  IMHO, the corporations and the unions tend to work hand in hand, as we can see from what happened in the case of GM and Chrysler.  For the second time, in the case of Chrysler, the Government bailed out large and uncompetitive monopolies.

Stephen: Everything you say about the “RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY”, you can also say about the “LEFT WING CONSPIRACY”. If you really listened to O’Reilly, he tries very hard to be neutral and see both sides. He admitted HE BELONGS TO A UNION [for 30 yrs] and so did his family in the past generations. The Unions did much good in the past, but they have gone too far. [I don’t care for Hannity and Beck either, but CNN has their’s also]  My husband belonged to the Union at one time,then changed jobs, and was not under a Union.  He could see both sides of the issue, being an accountant for a company that built RR cars. If Unions go too far, they can “break” a company. They keep asking for more and more and more, and small companies go under.  On the other side, see what the Dems have done with Healthcare. Unions, Healthcare, abortions, etc. should not be under the government.  Abortions should be under your personal religious beliefs. I am Catholic, I do not believe in abortions, therefore, I do not think a Catholic Hospital or doctor should be forced to do abortions. Many Catholic hospitals have closed because of this.  So see, Stephen, there are alway two sides—-the dems and repubs fighting one another for power.  I could never be a die-hard dem or repub. I use my own mind in voting. I guess you can say I am a very skeptical person and as my 9th grade business law teacher said “don’t believe anything you read and half of what you see”.  Walker is NOT TRYING TO GET RID OF THE UNIONS. He is trying to slow them down.  You also talk about money mongers like Koch, etc., who want to control—- well how abt. the money-monger, Soros and others, and the control they have with their money.  Both sides have their “power people” who have so much money, they use it to get what they want without thinking of the people as a whole.  This “taking sides” business is so juvenile.

Another thing that annoys me:  It is the Dems who gave us Social Security. [AT THE TIME THEY CALLED IT SOCIAL SECURITY INSURANCE] For some reason they dropped the “insurance part”. SS was put in a trust fund which was used for other things and now SS is in trouble financially.  SOCIAL SECURITY IS NOT AN ENTITLEMENT, IT IS AN INSURANCE THAT THE GOVERNMENT IMPOSED ON US.  WE PAID INTO IT AND NOw WE REAP FROM THAT INSURANCE. SO PEOPLE AND GOVERNMENT, DON’T CALL IT AN ENTITLEMENT!!!!! Read about the mess the government made of this. Read about Canada and England and how entitlements are forced on them. Read about their horrible healthcare. I personally know a doctor who came to the U.S. from Canada, “because he could not take care of his pts. as he wanted to”, the gov. dictated to the medical world.  I could go on and on.  Stephen: you really don’t see “both sides” when you blame everything on conservatism.
Liberals, on the whole, want the government to control everything. We, independent Americans are not used to that. 

As to the Senators who “bolted”—-shame on them—-If a boy played hookey from school, he’d never get away with it, now he can say “well senators do it, why can’t we”.  EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE, WHEN ARE OUR SENIOR REPRESENTATIVES IN WASHINGTON GOING TO SET AN EXAMPLE.  Obama spoke recently about us being civil to one another, yet he can use the term “tea bags” and Palosi can use the term, “astroturf”.  They, the Dems and the Repubs should start setting examples to our young people.

Representatives are suppose to represent their district and not their personal conscience. [never happens, does it] Hey Stephen, you say the poor souls are living in motels, funny no one can find them—-maybe one of the money-mongers are putting them up “in style” and hiding them. ;o)

@sue:

Social security is, as you say, not an entitlement but it is also not social insurance.  The benefits do not come from the Treasury but from people currently paying into FICA and from their companies. So it is a pass through. SSA, a remarkably efficient agency, takes a small change and then sends the money on. But you have no INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNT.

Walker isn’t trying to get rid of the unions? Maybe not in one fell swoop because he, and his chief backers, the Kochs realize it’s not possible. They’re ambitious, but they’re not dreamy eyed. It’s a little by little thing, but over time, a national full-free market economy sans organized labor is their ultimate goal.
  Social Security is still insurance, whether the government’s budget whizzes call it an entitlement or straight insurance. FDR made sure that individuals would pay into so “no damn politician” would be able to steal from the payments made by individual taxpayers (via their payroll taxes) and the money would be there. One of the most insidious lies of recent times has been the “Ponzi scheme” tripe that’s coming out of libertarian and ultra-conservative free-market uber alles thinkers, both of whom have long had their greedy eyes set on getting their hands on the trillions that are safely in government hands. Why? So they can play with it in the Wall Street casinos. There’s no coincidence between the hyper deregulation of Wall St., the gutting of Glass-Steagal and other regulatory firewalls during the late 90’s and the subsequent drive by Bush(43)‘s crowd to “privatize” Social Security. If banks were able to be so deregulated where the bankers were able to dip into the assets placed by depositors to gamble on high stakes hedge funds, derivatives, etc. stuff that most of us couldn’t figure out in a lifetime, they figured it’d only be a matter of time (so long as the economy was growing or the bubble didn’t burst) before they could lull the public into believing that Wall Street would also be safe for our Social Safety Net’s crown jewel. The GOP was more into privatizing SS, of course; but the GOP never could’ve gotten to this point had it not been for Bill Clinton’s deals with Alan Greenspan and his chief disciples, Robert Rubin, Larry Summers and Tim Geithner. They all had a libertarian mindset, guided by their intellectual saint (lol) Ayn Rand. FDR’s determined quote sure looks prescient. Well, we know what happened in 08, and unfortunately, I’m not sure if the present president realizes what a bunch of cowboys he took in and it may be till hell freezes over before I take Greenspan’s contrition in the aftermath as genuine. He made his bucks, so did all of them.
  There are so many complicated parts in this creaky machine called our economy and nobody has all the answers. I believe it is anti-conservative to push for an unregulated marketplace because it allows for the kind of libertarian-inspired, albeit legal (cough, choke) looting and pillaging of other people’s property.
  The Kochs and their patsies across the country are anti-conservatives using all the exterior window dressing of conservatism, and slickly packaged “good old fashioned Americanism” to make themselves look palatable to the public through their friends on Fox, front organizations and parties they’ve concocted (such as the Tea Party) ... all the while they’re playing the same old brass-knuckled tactics the Right has used since the late Seventies.
  What today’s Right, with the help of the Kochs, Scott Walkers, Karl Roves, and Dick Armeys, is up to is not much different than what they put to use during the 1978 Massachusetts Democratic Gubernatorial Primary race between then incumbent Mike Dukakis and his challenger Ed King, a conservative Democrat. Dukakis was aloof, had broken a “lead pipe guarantee” not to raise taxes, and caught flatfooted and overconfident. King, former MassPort head and businessman by experience, trounced the Duke who never knew what was coming. One of the key elements in King’s victory (and he had nothing to do with this) was revealed when a top volunteer said they “got all the hate groups together” to work for King’s win. They really wanted Dukakis out more than King in. Some of them were quite disappointed that King wasn’t the full-throated Right Winger the Boston Globe mischaracterized him as for four years. He was actually quite moderate and sadly, the last SOLID pro-life Democratic governor any state has and will likely ever to elect in our lifetimes. (See, I’m not that ideological. In fact, I’m an independent.)
  Walker’s very cagey and will do whatever he can to portray himself as a “savior” of labor from itself, so to speak but he’s a hired wolf wearing sheep’s clothing if this is his latest tactic. Do NOT trust this guy; he already has a UNION-BUSTING reputation from his days in Milwaukee. That’s his overall agenda, no matter how many gradual steps he and his puppet masters feel it’s necessary to take. They’re in for the long haul, and the unions are ready for it, too. The people who’ll suffer the most will be all the voters and workers in Wisconsin if Walker succeeds by denuding organized labor to the point that management will always have the upper hand and their economic livelihoods will always be at the mercy of THE BOSS. Is that what you want? That’s what they want, and if it takes using red-hot social issues (that they might not even agree with you on in the first place!) to distract you and every other Catholic from seeing the bigger and deeper picture here, THEY’LL DO IT TILL ALL THE CHEESE-PRODUCING COWS IN WISCONSIN COME HOME. This is what I’ve been trying get at for a whole week. I agree with you all on abortion and I’m hesitant for any special sexual rights for anybody, but I’m also loath to see people who only see these issues fit to divide people, getting every body in a hating mood together and pit them against the very people who on the whole have the best interests at heart. Remember, ON THE WHOLE, HAVE THE BEST INTERESTS AT HEART, and ask yourself, does Walker really have my, my family’s and my town’s best interests at heart when he’s been exposed for putting those of the Koch Brothers before Wisconsin’s. Remember the prank call? He let his own cats out of the bag.

@John Schuh: correct me if I am wrong again BUT, if I buy car insurance, which I have for well over 60 yrs,—-if I have an accident, [and I have never had one, thank God]  the insurance company uses your/my money and others to pay for my accident, within the same company.  If there is a catastrophy and homes are ruined in a tornado, home insurances goes up, because of this.  They need more of our money to pay for these ruined homes.  I am truly trying to understand this, mainly because our government acts as if they are giving us something for nothing, andd we should be “oh so grateful”. 

Below is something that I just read:

[What does FICA mean and why are Social Security taxes called FICA contributions?
  Social Security payroll taxes are collected under authority of the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA). The payroll taxes are sometimes even called “FICA taxes.”

In the original 1935 law the benefit provisions were in Title II of the Act (which is why we sometimes call Social Security the “Title II” program.) The taxing provisions were in a separate title, Title VIII. There is a deep reason for this, having to do with the constitutionality of the law (see discussion of the Constitutionality of the 1935 Act).

As part of the 1939 Amendments, the Title VIII taxing provisions were taken out of the Social Security Act and placed in the Internal Revenue Code. Since it wouldn’t make any sense to call this new section of the Internal Revenue Code “Title VIII,” it was renamed the “Federal Insurance Contributions Act.”

The payroll taxes collected for Social Security are of course taxes, but they can also be described as contributions to the social insurance system that is Social Security. Hence the name “Federal Insurance Contributions Act.”

So FICA is nothing more than the tax provisions of the Social Security Act, as they appear in the Internal Revenue Code.]

So, John, what is the difference if it is called a tax or an insurance payment. The government is great for changing “words”.  Hope you answer me.

@Steven –

“I’ll let your direct comparison of public employees unions to the Nazi Party and white supremacists speak for itself and you.”

Again, your blind, bias position causes you to miss the only comparison I made.  And that is, you, and Catholics like you, are not unlike Catholics who supported the KKK, and the Democrat White supremacist party, or the NAZI party in Germany because of the economic benefit you got from aligning yourself with them.  You set aside the Catholic beliefs you profess to believe and pray for with your own lips, standing in Mass on Sunday after the gospel and homily, where you say, voluntarily, that you believe in “the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,” and then again, standing before Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist in which you pray for God’s “will to be done on earth.”  Yet, you support and back a public organization whose allegiance is to the pro-abortion party that is solely responsible for abortion-on-demand remaining the law-of-the-law which is responsible for the murder of over 51,000,000 babies in the U.S. created by God, according to what you say in church, some of whom were already born, having survived their abortion.  And you do that solely for economic gain.  You are no better than those Catholics who went along with the White Supremacist and the German Nazis.  You condone, and contribute to evil for personal profit.  I have not compared unions to White Supremacist or to the NAZI Party.  I compared you to the “useful idiots,” Catholic or not, who can be bought to keep silent so that real evil can run rampant throughout our country. 

And finally, you are not in a position to criticize anybody who may be wealthy, and especially the Koch brothers who provide employment and a livelihood to over 50,000 American families in our country, alone.  You may have a right to criticize, but it only exposes you short comings in facts and reasoning - in contrast to your writing skills.

@Sue:

Insurance doesn’t work like social security because the money received by SS beneficaries comes more or less directly from the contributors whereas insurance benefits come from the company. Social insurance would be something more like   a 401(k).  At age 65 you would use the accumulated amount and buy an annuity.

As a Catholic cheating, lying, stealing, running away from ones responsibilities I was taught were serious sins.  The unions have been breaking the law, teaching the children in Wisconsin that the teachers can cheat by accepting false medical records from doctors.  The unions brought in people from out of state to bash the governor,  threaten the states representatives, and disobey the law just to name a few horrendous things that has gone on in Wisconsin. 
What is going on in Wisconsin is the unions are tying to keep the money flowing in to their coffers.  The unions back everything that Catholics call serious sin and are not interested in anything but the take over of America.  The Bishops should be standing up for the Governor and requesting that the run away Democratic party come back to work and to do what they were elected to do.  The Church should not be for a party that goes against all of its teachings, this has nothing to do with social issues it has to do for the hard working people of the state, who are broke.

@Stillbelieve, Thank you for your compliment on my writing abilities.
As for the rest of your reply, well…Wow. Apparently you haven’t noticed throughout this commentary thread my previously stated opposition to abortion. I’m not aware that I could’ve made it any clearer. So there you have it; matter settled? I am in a position as well as anybody else exercising his/her 1st Amendment rights to criticize me or a company led by two brothers whose goal of ridding the nation of organized labor is well known and documented. They might not succeed totally in this broad frontal attack through several states this winter, but if allowed to go unchallenged, they will succeed and we will all lose, including Koch brothers’ present employees because they’ll have no alternatives to seek employment with that might be unionized and where they can earn a better income to support their families. What’s so difficult for people to understand this?
  As I read and re-read through your ad hominem laced rant against me at the top of your last post, including me in with the Nazis, KKK and Democratic Party, well…it goes to show you haven’t been reading EVERYTHING I’ve written or have decided to take my words out of context. That’s your perogative. But are you ready for the boomerang to follow? First off, I’m not a Democrat but an independent. In fact I disenrolled as a Democrat because I was disappointed in their tepid defense of the good things they stand for and their abhorrent clinging on to abortion rights which has, as you rightly pointed out, led to the deaths of 50M innocent babies, would-be American citizens. And you have no idea how hard it’s been to get any of them to pay the slightest attention when I point out the inconvenient truth of the consequences of this horrendous loss and what’s going to happen to the social safety net programs such as Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid and eventually Obamacare. These programs require millions of people to contribute to through their payroll taxes. Regardless of how we feel towards these programs, they’re a fact of life and many people depend on them to survive in their old age. No large nation can survive if it kills off its present off-spring and allows for the legal mechanics of this killing to continue unabated.
  On the other hand, no great nation can continue if it also strangles the babies who do make it into the world by starving the funding needed to help their parents get them off to healthy good starts, either.
  Let me repeat what I said about the Nazis earlier, especially insofar as labor rights are concerned and see if you don’t think you just may have mis-characterized my position somewhat:
  “Why are the fatcats of the Right Wing going after the teachers unions? Because once labor’s finished off, so will much of the Democratic Party’s ability to raise sufficient campaign funds to run even moderately competitive runs for public offices at all levels. The GOP and Dick Armey’s so-called Tea Party, backed by their Rightist pals, much like the Nazis were by the Krupps and other “leading industrialists” in “respected German society” are out to create a one-party state, just as Germany’s hidden elite did by allowing the Nazis to take over, foolishly believing they could “control” them. And what was one of the first things the Nazis did after taking power? They busted the very same unions that foolishly backed them,  putting them to work under near or practically slave labor conditions building Hitler’s Autobahn. If they complained; off to Dachau.”
  It’s not that I believe the Kochs, Armey and Co. will pull off what Hitler and his labor lackey, Robert Ley did to the unions during the early years of the Third Reich. But don’t you agree we must all stand vigilant to be on the watchout for shadowy elitists, be they the Kochs, George Soros, et al? ...Western democracies are always going to be at risk of being manipulated into accepting their unelected governance via the front networks they’ve established to do their dirty work if we don’t stand up and call them out for what they’re really up to.
  I’ve never said people should applaud the union’s stands on abortion, gay rights, etc. In fact, those issues should be avoided by them so that the sole interest of unions should be protecting workers’ rights as they pertain solely to job-related issues, wages, benefits, working conditions, etc. On the other hand, it’s irrational to tell the teachers and other public employees who are struggling to keep their jobs and preserve their dignity as public employees by protecting their rights to be represented by a union and bargain fairly through legally maintained collective bargaining rights ... that they have to fold their cards just because of some hot-button issues the governor and his pals and supporters in the Right Wing media, especially Fox “news” have decided to inject FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF DISTRACTING THE PUBLIC AND ESPECIALLY UNION MEMBERS FROM THE BIGGER PICTURE, AND THAT IS WALKER’S WILLINGNESS TO ACT AS THE KOCH BROTHERS’ LAPDOG.
  By the way, although I’ve been asked if I belonged to a union (I don’t because I’m retired) accused of being a Democrat, which I’ve settled in this post ... have many of you noticed that I haven’t impugned any of your motives and reasons for attacking my views by suggesting that you might be working on behalf of the various front organizations brought into Wisconsin no thanks to the Kochs and the Republican Party? I just questioned why you’re not seeing what’s happening right under your noses!

@Cecilia…Agree with all your statements here! It is time for the Bishops of Wisconsin to be done with politics and involvment in Union matters! They need to be the spiritual leaders and Shepherds of the people that they promised to be when they were installed. They can’t be Shepherds AND politicians at the same time! The state of Wisconsin, like the nation, is facing insolvency and tough action is required…as well as sacrifice. Governor Walker and many other states are facing a real enemy in these Union bosses who are and have been exploiting the worker! The only people at this very moment who are willing to sacrifice for the Nation are its seniors…no COLA for the past few years, none coming..and
each year the benefits shrink as the costs for Medicare go up and inflation hits hard…we are not complaining but would like others also to step up to the plate…and give back a little..not everything like some here are commenting. We are all Americans after all and have a stake in the outcome of what is occuring in Wisconsin. So goes Wisconsin, so goes the Nation, most believe!

Cecelia, what do you call the likes of the National GOP, Karl Rove, Americans for Prosperity, various other right wing organizations with national headquarters elsewhere who put together a bus tour for Scott Walker to take his “case” to the people in Wisconsin? Are they not intruding auslanders? What did the judge who told Walker he had to open the statehouse say about the demonstrators? Oh, I remember…he praised them for their manners and cleanliness. Walker’s ruse for shutting down the capitol building for “cleaning” was such a joke that nobody with half a political wit in your state bought it for a second; excepting only those who wanted to believe it like all of Walker and his pals, the Koch brothers wanted people to believe.
  And have you forgotten that memorable taped conversation Walker had with the prankster who fooled him into believing he was David Koch and the two talked about bringing in troublemakers to gin up trouble? Madison’s Finest wasn’t too amused. Wonder why.
  C’mon Walker supporters in this paper, you’re being fooled, and used by Walker and the Wizards of O$ and if they win, never mind that famous line in the movie, you won’t even recognize your state much longer.

The bigger picture is that the leadership of public sector unions have used their membership to force local, state, and - as proven in the last presidential election - national politicians to accommodate their demands. When people like Steven decide to stop their puerile, relentless diatribe about the Koch brothers (please - soon?), perhaps they will hear other arguments. Is it unreasonable - or contrary to Catholicism - for public employees to pay a fair amount for their own pensions and benefits? In Connecticut, a union actually successfully forced a municipal government to provide them with free coffee and fixings. That’s reasonable?

How about unions like the NEA, SEIU, and the UAW pumping hundreds of millions of dollars to buy politicians? Money that members pay for the unions to advocate for them - not to play power politics. People like Steven love to scream about businesses spending money, but they think it’s fine for unions to spend money buying influence? At least the Koch brothers EARNED the money they are spending - the unions take it from their working members.

Steven; I am surprised that you complain about being the butt of an ad hominem attack…that is largely the basis of every tirade you have shared ....at tiresome length ... with us in this forum. I would charge you with a couple of logical fallacies myself. You consistently (no pun intended) commit a fallacy Argumentum ad nauseam; every one of your posts seem to repeat and expand on itself…kind of like bread rising. Another? Cum hoc ergo propter hoc is another debating fallacy you tend to fall into. Walker is fighting one collective bargaining war to avoid towns fighting over 100 separate battles…a process that would be lengthy and costly. For you, however, it is much simpler to create a correlation between business interests and the move to restrict unions. The fact of the matter is much simplier….hence your frequent attempts to interject red herrings.

In the private sector, unions are cognizant when they are bargaining that they too are reliant on the company prospering…unless they are the UAW. In that case, the union convinced Congress to pony up billions, deny creditors and shareholders their fare revenues, and essentially give GM to the union. In the real world, no union would push a corporation into a situation that would destroy it. Corporations, therefor, always have that bargaining chip. In the public sector, managers and politicians all too often work from the assumption that they have a bottomless pit of wealth to work with - which is largely why so many states are broke. Administrators and politicians are also aware that union members can - and will -organize to reward or punish municipal, county, and state officials for their actions. As a result, most pols will placate the unions - after all, government never has to post a profit to stay in ‘business.’

This leads us to your last - and most grievous - debating fallacy….that of the dicto simpliciter. The sweeping generalization you make indicate an attempt to deceive or mislead the reader or - and I would hope this is not the case, but your lengthy diatribes studded with logical fallacies indicate otherwise - you simply don’t understand the issue at hand.

Public employees serve at the behest of the public. Period. Citizens expect - and demand - a certain level of government services. If government refuses to provide conditions, salary, and enticements adequate to attract competent public servants, then the voters will address that lack in the polling booth. This desire for a certain standard of service will protect workers in the long term. Will there be problems in the immediate future? Absolutely.

Unfortunately, the union leadership created most of them - at the expense of the members they were supposed to be representing.

@Steven:

The Dims started this stuff. You are complaining because the pubblies know howe to fight back?  But as for calling Rove a “right-winger.”  Rove is not a conservatives, but a middle- of the road (of the Republican Party) whose only real loyalty is to the Bush family who want Jeb in the White House.

@Steven: why not everyone knock off on the Nazi stuff?  Hitler has become the all purpose bad guy, with both right and left using his name in vain.  And stay away with from Robert Ley, because what he did was to dissolve all unions into one “labor front.”

Scott Walker for President 2012 -  a real leader…. and I’m a union member, U.A.W. local 892, Saline Mi.

@John….Your comment here is well-written and arguments well presented.
However I would disagree with one statement you made…“public employees serve at the behest of the people..” ..You forgot to add, unless you are a Democratic state senator from Wisconsin. That is a group of public employees that serve only the Democratic Party agenda. If things are not going their way they pick up their toys and go home…or rather skip town! Is that anyway to serve? Impeach them all at the voting booth!!!

@John…as opposed to John Shuh…I agree that getting a town in CT to provide coffee n’ donuts is petty and well beyond the pale. I’ll agree with you that I went on too long. lol. But if you think I’ve been arrogant, and I (believe, but I could be wrong) that I admitted letting my feelings get ahead my better judgment, perhaps you ought to re-read your last post and ask yourself what all that display of latin was about and for whom?
  All I’m trying to do with my posts is to say in so many words, Look, Walker, other Republican UNION-BUSTING governors, the Kochs, GOP, Fox, et al, are all working in cahoots to do you in and set up an oligharchy in one state after another. And you say the Democrats and Labor are doing the same. I won’t contest that, either. But at least the public employees unions are working to protect their ability to conduct legal collective bargaining and not be cowed by a governor who is not working for the interests of Wisconsites, but the Koch brothers as that prank call revealed. 
  He was caught with his pants down, plain and simple and a whole dictionary’s worth of latin words and grammar in yours’ or anybody else’s posts on behalf of Walker, the Kochs, e/a can’t change that. He exposed his agenda and should be impeached for even suggesting to plant trouble makers. Try your high falutin’ pontifications on Madison’s Finest and see how they’ll react to your defense of Walker and the Kochs.
  @John Shuh ... If Karl Rove is a middle of the road, even RINO Republican, I’m a Buddhist Birchite. As for Jeb running, he’s an honorable man, but even honorable men have a very difficult uphill battle no matter how earnestly their friends, family and political admirers believe them to be the best qualified ... if they come from a dynasty that most voters have probably grown tired of, they won’t win. Eventually that’s what even discouraged most of Ted Kennedy’s family members from passing on the chance to succeed him, and there would’ve been no Scott Brown if just one of them said “yes” if Gov. Patrick offered the opportunity. Voters tired of the Adamses, Tafts, Kennedys, and soon they’re tire of the Bush’s.
  To some degree I agree with you about Hitler. But you can’t ignore the facts that unlike Stalin or other thugs in history who simply muscled their way into power and went on to do horrible things; Hitler deftly used both thuggish methods through his Brownshirts and the Reichstag (filled with Brownshirts, coincidently) to push the Weirmar Government under President Hindenburg who was pressured by the conservative Prussian aristocracy and big business interests, especially Krupp, into giving Hitler the chancellorship. As for Ley, you’re right, but partially so because the Nazis promised to get people to work and the German unions foolishly fell for Hitler’s promise on jobs. What they should’ve looked for was how he and his appointed goon, the drunkard Ley, planned to get all those jobs: They learned too late that there was a hidden part of the bargain and it came in the form of a rump labor department and darn near forced labor conscription. They only thing that kept it from being called slavery for German workers was the fact they were paid (albeit chump change for their hard work on the autobahn, etc.) If they complained, they were physically punished on the spot or packed off to Dachau. If you’ll carefully look back, you’ll notice that I clearly said that isn’t what any of labor’s foes in Wisconsin (or any other state) have in mind.
  They’re playing hardball politics, but nothing like what the Nazis pulled. But wouldn’t you also like to know what happened to American workers who, during the Great Depression, went to work in Ford’s truck factories he built for Stalin. And wouldn’t you like to know if every American who worked for the Koch’s old man came back? As for those Ford workers, as soon as they got there, the Reds confiscated their passports and all but a handful died in Stalin’s Gulag. Sadly and shamefully, our embassy over there did very little for them. It’s a black mark indeed on FDR’s State Department’s record.
  @Robert R, man, you must the most popular guy in your local. lol You’ll do better off supporting Will Ferrell. Even his really dumb’d down W character seemed to have more on the ball than Walker.

Do you think Wisconsin’s kids and their teachers can top this under a no-holds barred Walker administration (taking it’s marching orders from right wing think tanks?) http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2011/03/06/the_myths_about_unions/
If you want the best things in life, don’t expect to get them cheaply. But if you like to live cheaply and buy things on the cheap thinking you’re really saving, well, you get what you pay for. And if you settle for somebody else’s cheaper ideals for the kind of life his state’s residents should have, just so a few more sheckels can be jingling in people’s pockets, you and your children and their children will get far less on the long run than you can ever imagine IN YOUR WORST NIGHTMARES.

@Steven:

Unless you have been a teacher, you don’t get one point:  In the public schools teachers have always played a subordinate role, and this role has been codified: They do not by right control how they do their work, nor what they teach, nor who they teach it to, or when or where. As some state law puts its succinctly: they are mere   employees.  Furthermore, when the public schools began expanding, Taylorism was the model used in factories, and as schools got larger they more and more began to resemble factories.  NEA for the longest time pretended to be a professional “association” because it also included administrators, and administration offered a real career. For most teachers, thirty years of experience was largely one year’s experience repeated 29 times. There was a kind of iron law: the end salary was two times the starting salary.  In NYC. which had one of the best school systems. there was for a time a kind of advancement offered for secondary level teachers. You put in your time in the “junior high schools,” and after a period of time and a certain level of performance, you got “promoted” to the high school level and in a pretty good school.  For middle-class Jews high schools positions were prized because in those days intellectual quality was prized by the students, especially the Jews. Then they tried to change the rules and lock teachers in place.  It was then that the New York union joined the AFT, the union inspired by John Dewey himself. Under Al Shanker’s leadership they began to think and act as a union. In the ‘60s, the NEA more or less expelled the administrators from leadership and began also to be a union. At first this was somewhat beneficial, because if nothing else it made the central office adhere to its own rules, to which most principals were basically indifferent. You get something like a real civil service situation. 

But then, gradually, the teacher unions began to get more and more involved in politics. It really began with LBJ’s education act in 1965, and the more federal money began to come into the schools, the more the unions tried to get a piece of an ever large pie. At some point the teacher unions became part of the Democratic coalition that included among others the private sector unions and the feminist lobbies.  As the Evangelicals got more and more into politics, the schools became more and more hostile toward religion.  They had always espoused Dewey’s secularism. but
nit they became increasingly anti-religious.

@John Schuh: I agree: I went to Catholic grade school in the late 30’s in NYS. In 8th grade we took NYS Regents. We were ahead of some public schools—-though my husband went to a P.S. with four rooms and 8 grades, and his education was equivalent to mine.  In public H.S. we again had regents. I took a business course, because I knew my parents could not afford college.  I can honestly say that my business course was equal to 2 yrs. of community college today. We had excellent teachers and NYS and Calif. tried their best to excell over each other.  My children started in Cath. grade school, then we moved and it was public school and I was so upset over their education, I again enrolled them in Cath. grade school, 18 miles away and there was no school bus service.  They then went to Catholic H.S. [of course this was when the Nuns taught].
Public schools, since the unions have entered the picture, have gone way down hill and it is a shame. My grandchildren went to P.S. and the stories they told were hair raising. The teacher could not send a naughty child down to the principal, she had to handle the situation herself (things so bad as calling a teacher the “f” word).  I feel sorry for the teachers today as the dicipline is regulated by a group of bureaucrats who treat all the offences the same. For instance, I know a boy who put mayonnaise on a teachers car. He was suspended for a number of days. The parents went to the teachers and said “he is happy to be home—instead, why don’t you have him wash a teacher’s car every day after school”. [answer: “oh we could not possibly do that, against the rules”]Parents in this case made more sense.  Another child played hookey and they would call the mother at home (the mother worked, just as the teachers did). When asked to call her at work, they continued to call her at home.  (following all the stupid rules for all offenses—doing the same thing as robots).  Of course the child would get the message on the phone and erase it before mother saw it.  This is the school system today. Too many bureaucrats running the show from their pedestals.  The teachers have it just as hard as the kids.  The unions should go out. They are too political. UNIONS SHOULD NOT BE RUNNING THE SCHOOLS.
I also feel, in this day and age, that all teachers should have a certain amount of psychology.  They handle so many different types of kids and also the classes are too large.  [yet they are closing schools?]

I also am aware that Catholic Schools are in a different position. If you don’t like it, you can send your kids to P.S.

@Steven

“All I’m trying to do with my posts is to say in so many words, Look, Walker, other Republican UNION-BUSTING governors, the Kochs, GOP, Fox, et al, are all working in cahoots to do you in and set up an oligharchy in one state after another. And you say the Democrats and Labor are doing the same. I won’t contest that, either. But at least the public employees unions are working to protect their ability to conduct legal collective bargaining and not be cowed by a governor who is not working for the interests of Wisconsites, but the Koch brothers as that prank call revealed.”

Steven – the people voted.  They elected this governor and this Legislature knowing what they said they would do.  The people wanted a change.  They wanted change from the going in debt, bankrupting ways of the Democrats.  You are telling Americans that a single union’s “collective bargaining” is more important than the state Constitution and the peoples’ right to vote for who they want to govern them?  That’s pretty arrogant, and pretty scary.  Mob rule is what you are supporting here, not American Republic democracy.  These are the tactics of dictators.  And to be a dictator, one has to create a target to turn the people against.  You are reminding me of Lawrence Lader.  Dr. Bernard Nathanson described Lawrence Lader as “the most important figure in abortion rights history.

Lawrence Lader “Godfather” of the modern abortion movement in the United States, founder of NARAL, the National Abortion Rights Action League, and the puppeteer behind NOW said this to his former colleague, friend and co-founder of NARAL, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, “Historically, every revolution has to have its villain.  It doesn’t really matter whether it’s a king, a dictator, or a tsar, but it has to be someone, a person, to rebel against.  It’s easier for the people we want to persuade to perceive it this way.  Now, in our case, it makes little sense to lead a campaign only against unjust laws, even though that’s what we really are doing.  We nave to narrow the focus, identify those unjust laws with a person or a group of people.  A single person isn’t quite what we want, since that might excite sympathy for him.  Rather, a small group of shadowy, powerful people.  Too large a group would diffuse the focus, don’t you see?  There’s always been one group of people in this country associated with the reactionary politics, behind-the-scenes manipulations, socially backward ideas.  You know who I mean, Bernie.” 

Lawrence Lader had a “devil theory” which was the Catholics, but not all Catholics.  Liberal Catholics were going to be needed as “valuable showpieces.”  No, his “devil theory” were the Catholic hierarchy – the bishops. (Quotes from Aborting America, by Dr. Bernard Nathanson)

Your “devil theory” is “the Kochs, GOP, Fox, et al,” who you claim “are all working in cahoots to do you in and set up an oligharchy.”  You’re a scary person if you believe that, and a dangerous one with your writing skills.  Lawrence Lader was successful in his goal, and the results are 51,000,000 legally murdered babies with no end in sight.  If you are successful in your propaganda campaign, the larger private employed taxpayers group will be working to enrich government union workers and their bosses, and, if that isn’t bad enough, we will have to put up with the corruption, greed and thuggery on display in Wisconsin today which will be common place across this formerly, free land.

@stillbelieve:

Lawrence Lader had a “devil theory” which was the Catholics, but not all Catholics.  Liberal Catholics were going to be needed as “valuable showpieces.”  No, his “devil theory” were the Catholic hierarchy – the bishops. (Quotes from Aborting America, by Dr. Bernard Nathanson)

Only too true.  Catholics such as Nancy Pelosi, people who are so powerful that the bishops tremble in their boots at the thought of confronting them head on.

@John Schuh…You made a most important point in your last comment when you distinquished the teaching profession ( which it once was )from the “job of teaching"it became when the profession was unionized! As professionals, teachers had a certain cache…status, that they lost when
they became “Shankerized” into the ATF and never regained! As a result
education went rapidly downhill…since no longer did either teachers or
local citizenry have local control over the essentials of education. I taught
for high school science 13 years before retiring to raise a family. At that time the union
was beginning to make in-roads. I had fully intended to return to my
profession once my duties as mother and home-maker eased. Alas I never
did…lost all my desire to teach when I became aware of how things had
changed..not for the better! I believe unions served the working class
well ( at one time) but in many ways now exploit the very people they
once represented. And teachers “lost their class” (pardon the pun!) once
they succumbed to union power! I realize I am digressing abit from the topic here but did want to comment on your inciteful comments.

@Stephen: On Sunday, March 6th above, I clicked on the http/www.boston globe,etc. in red and it messed up my computer with a big error. What came up was a blue page with white printing and nowhere could I click to get out of it.  I had to reboot my computer and microsoft advised me that a large error occurred and corrected it.  With all the arguing going on over these corrupt unions, it is not worth my computer crashing. I suggest you check out the site you were sending us to.

@Thurstfortruth:

The unions are not the main problem, or the only one.  There is school administration—known also as the blob—which soaks up so much of the money coming into the schools from the state and the federal government.  There are the school boards which are concerned mainly to get more and more money. There are the federal and state educational Departments which pile layer upon layer of bureaucrats on top of the local central offices. There are the education schools in the colleges and universities, which have not had an original idea since John Dewey sat at Columbia. There are the textbook and audiovisual publishers and the other school suppliers make billion from every more vapid material. There are the educational testing services which make more and more billions now, especially since NCLB was forced on the schools. There are the building contractors, the sports industry. I could go on and own. Collectively it is called the Educational Establishment.

@John Schuh:  Right on John! I don’t know who you are, but you have a good handle on the situation. 
How about kids in college being taught over the t.v. instead of having a teacher present. How about kids in college not being able to go to their home games because all the good seats and most of the others are taken by big shots and people in the community.[only a small section for them & not enough seats] How about big politicians charging $10,000+ just to give a speech, which means nothing in the end to the students “but gives the college prestege”. Some of the monies come from the college and some from students. Whichever, in the end the money comes from the parents and that is why it is so expensive to go to college. Waste, waste, waste and everyone making money on the little guy again [the unions, the school system, the state and federal governments, etc]

@Sue: I’m terribly sorry the link to this Globe story went awry and you’re right, no story is worth the trouble and thanks for making me aware of this. It’s surprisinb because the Globe (despite it’s editorial stands) is a reputable company and owned by the NYT’s, and one would think that these two papers have better “linkage” setups if they want people to read and spread their stories around. Just as an afterthought, you might want to play with some words or initials on Google, or whatever you use, and include the date. Try Massachusetts, schools, MTA president, unions ... and see how that works. Again, sorry to have sent you on a wild goose chase. I know I’ve got people’s blood pressures rising high enough for some of my posts and ideas, but I’d surely not want to endanger anybody’s computers. I’ve had those worries on another site and I’m fully empathetic with your concerns. Hope my suggestions work, even if you don’t like what you read if you reach it. LOL. The heat will be on me!

@Steven: Thanks for the reply. I am too old to have my blood pressure rise over this. I have NY relatives who are die-hard Democrats and I know “how to take it, with my conservative/liberal ideas”  At 84, I have seen the need for unions and also how they began to be corrupt by the big-wigs. We still need them, we just need to take the corruption out of them. They seem like the little kid “who goes too far” and needs to be ‘sat-on’. Same with the government.  ;o)

Doesn’t matter what comes up in today’s world—-everything gets so complicated.

Hope all you fans of Scott Walker are happy with your empty victory when the recalls successfully yank every UNION BUSTING pol who played ball with Walker on that sneak end-run play to split the spending portion from the UNION-BUSTING part of Walker’s bill.
  SHAME, PURE SHAME. And your entire state will eventually pay in terms of a lowered standard of living. Welcome to Kochville, folks. But not for long. LOL!

Stephan…How gracious you are…when “your side” loses, even after playing every dirty game in the book…you cry “Shame” on those who
are trying to reclaim financial solvency for the state!! We may all
have to lower our standards abit…because afew demanded the whole pie for themselves ...FOR FREE!! I wonder which is more shameful!! Some
apparently know not the difference here! Sorry you and your wife may
have to give up your filet mignon and eat meatloaf with the rest of us for awhile. Just remember that most of us will still be paying for a
good portion of your meatloaf…Can’t you be a little grateful for your years of largesse…and contribute something other than your scorn?!

How good God is!  How sweet the taste of victory.  How brilliant Governor Walker and the Republican Senators were to give the bullies all the rope they wanted to tie themselves up in knots.  And now those crybabies are all dangling in mid air with all their hatred oozing out of them having been outsmarted and outshined by those calm, respectful Christian Republicans.  And those that look the MOST foolish are the Wisconsin Democrat Senators who fled their post to hide in the great bastion of Democrat political union goons – Illinois, my birthplace – south Chicago to be exact, the chosen home base of the “chosen one,” our great union loving, oil-gasoline hating, job murdering, baby murdering, free enterprise despising, ally insulting, dictator adoring, enemy coddling, financially dimwitted, liar par excellence, megalomaniacal – the one, the only President Barack Hussein Obama.

…but doesn’t he have a great smile; and can’t he read a teleprompter like nobody ever before?! Mmm mmm mmm.

Now the intellectually enlightened one will really unleash from the people’s White House his Organizing for America goons to go after those duty honoring, Wisconsin Christian Republicans and work to steal their elected seats from them using their Chicago patented, typical voter-fraud-stealing-monopoly with the help of their labor loving, dishonest union government workers.  He who counts the votes – wins, in times like this. The lines are drawn…now, the fun begins.  Will God’s people win again?  Is it possible He can pull this off against the throngs of angry, hating Democrats?  Stay tune.

@Steven

“SHAME, PURE SHAME.”

It’s amazing how people who support the pro-abortion party, like the Democrat legislators in Wisconsin, and commenter’s here, who support them, could cry “shame, shame” to men and women who show up to do the job citizens of WI elected them to do.  Anybody who is a Democrat, especially Catholic, or who supports anything they do, is not in a position to level the charge of “shame” on anybody, especially, against decent Christians who stay on the job, working for the people, and vote what is the “common good” for all the people.

Watching the mobs break into and storm the WI capital building shows further disrespect for the people and the “common good.”  These are selfish, self-centered mobs compared to the decent people Obama calls the “tea baggers.”  These Democrat mobs should be held in contempt and disgust.  And any Catholics in them ought to be ashamed…but they’re not; after all, they have the bishops’ endorsement because they are a union.  Funny, over 300,000 people were in Wash. DC a couple months ago demonstrating against the government, but they didn’t behave the way these Obama union mobs are.  But they were just demonstrating about the murder of babies, not money.

Well, Steven, if the democratic senators had done their job, perhaps things would have been different. Walker and many conservatives won by comfortable margins - I truly don’t believe that the unionistas have enough to pull off successful recalls.

Come on now, you are defending bus drivers who rack up tens of thousands of dollars in overtime…overtime they earn because they keep the municipality from hiring more drivers? There were several union bus drivers who earned over $100,000. In Connecticut, there are over 1,000 state employees who make more money than the governor.

And - time and time again - you rail about corporate manipulation yet you have yet to admit that the labor, state, and muni unions are more of a threat to free and open democratic institutions. After all, was it the tea party that burst through police lines, invaded the capitol building, defaced public property, assaulted people, and committed countless acts of vandalism? No….that would be teachers, state and muni employees, college students, and ‘activists’ recruited by moveon.org.

To get back to the meat of the issue…the bishops, by remaining neutral on this issue, were correct. People who abuse bargaining techniques don’t deserve the right to run and cry for protection from the consequences of their own misdeeds.