This is but one manifestation of the tyranny that is government recognition of same-sex relationships.  The way things are going, such situations will be legion in the years to come.

The New Jersey story reference is inaccurate.  A special exemption was issued to build the pavillion that would be used by all people.  The UMC broke that agreement.  I resigned from the UMC due to the discrimination against Gays.

This business is taking it on the chin via “Yelp” and probably won’t survive for long.  The owner also has tatoos…Leviticus anyone?

Hmmm.  Sounds like a setup to me.  With all the Christian symbols in the store and on the internet, did the homosexuals really think they did not practice what they preach?  Just another of Obama’s “freedom for some” approach against those who uphold the natural law like Catholics do.  Obama and his kind treat Catholics like Hitler did Jews, publicly humiliating them and destroying their businesses.

Time to start a charity to help those who stand behind their beliefs pay their fines.
BTW Rover Seton, the tattoo could have been prior to the persons full conversion to Judeo-Christian beliefs. Not every Saint has a pure and sinless history either.

The last group of people you want to upset in this country are the “tolerant, inclusive” group. They will pounce on you like a pack of lions if you have opinions that differ from theirs, or at least if you implement those opinions in your daily life.

Thank you for this article.  So many people claim there is no harm to those who hold to the simple fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.  But it does, since it is quickly becoming a crime to not participate in the legitimization of these fake marriages.  Holding to a truth universally acknowledged throughout history is quickly becoming a crime.

Radical homosexual activists want everyone to embrace their lifestyle.  It isn’t enough just to accept them.  They’re just a bunch of whiney babies who probably targeted this business when they saw the crosses and bible verse.  It’s only going to get worse for Christians.

This is definitely a dicrimination case, but it’s RELIGIOUS discrimination.
I would never approach a Jewish or Muslim baker to ask for a cake with images of Jesus and Mary on them… or ask them for a First Holy Communion cake with “Jesus is the Messiah” written on it.
If someone is unable to do something because of their religious beliefs, then fine. The customers can go elsewhere.
It’s one thing to refuse to sell regular cakes and cookies to homosexuals, and a completely different thing to refuse to be cooperating with something that goes against your religion. The former would be wrong, the latter would be right.

Note: Oregon does NOT have same-sex marriage.  Bottom line, the bakery sells cakes.  This couple went in to buy one.  What is was for is irrelevant.  The bakery cannot discriminate in public accommodations.  He will pay for this, as well he should.  It is obnoxious to act the way he did.  They didn’t ask for his opinion or his blessing.  They asked for a cake, which is all he is in the business of selling.

So from a moral perspective, if a Catholic baker were to make such a cake - as required by law to prevent facing serious business killing penalties - would this be considered collaboration with a grave sin?

@Rover I can’t speak for th UMC as I’m Catholic, but for us, being against so-called same-sex marriage isn’t a matter of discrimination, it’s a matter of following God’s will and design.  Also, I’m guessing the exemption for construction of the pavilion was issued long before the civil unions and same-sex marriage debate came to be.

Still, this issue is a slippery wet slope.  Perhaps it is better to be persecuted to the point of loosing one’s livelihood than to compromise on one’s Faith.

Just wondering…if a couple from a nudist colony wanted a special order cake made with nude figurines etc. on it would a company be forced to recognize the beliefs and/or actions of this group despite their own moral beliefs? Would this same company be obliged to create a cake for those involved in witchcraft or Wiccan followers who wanted their beliefs expressed upon the cake? Or for someone who wanted an abominable act of bestiality portrayed upon a cake because that is what they wanted? I’m sure the list could go on.  God help our country and the USAmericans.

So what would happen if the baker was Muslim???

Donna,
I’ve wondered about that, too.There are a host of themes bakeries might object to decorate cakes with.At what point is it discrimination as opposed to the right to refuse service?

So?

So John K., I am sure you would be okay if someone came into the shop asking for a cake commemorating the birthday of Hitler, with swastikas and SS symbols, correct?  Let’s make it a little less dramatic - is a restaurant discriminating against people with bare feet for refusing to serve those who come in with no shoes?  Or how about a restaurant for vegetarians - does such a restaurant discriminate against those who eat meat?  Does a business discriminate against poor people if its prices are too high?  Does a business discriminate if it decides it won’t bake x-rated cakes for bachelor parties?  There are dozens and dozens of examples of how incorrect you are on this.  A business cannot operate without making rational and sound moral judgments.  My guess is you don’t actually own one do you?

Donna, you sound ridiculous.  Leave aside your offensive and outlandish comparison between bestiality and homosexuality, and the couple was still asking for a wedding cake just like others the shop creates.  They were not asking for anything that is on its face vulgar or obscene.  I can only presume they were asking for their names and normal, clothed figures that the shop provides to everyone else.
And if someone had gone there asking for a cake and happened to mention it was going to be used in a Wiccan wedding ceremony, you are darned right they would have to provide it.  They are a public accommodation that sells cakes.  What the cake will be used for is pretty irrelevant.  There are nondiscrimination laws that specifically enumerate characteristics upon which public accommodations may not discriminate, and both sexual orientation and religion are among them (being a nudist, I would note, is not).  As with many things in life and society, there needs to be a balance.  Freedom of religion does not mean freedom to harm others during the course of business of being a public accommodation to make a point.  Freedom of religion is not a blank check to do whatever you want and claim your religion demands it.

@Rover, “This business is taking it on the chin via “Yelp” and probably won’t survive for long.  The owner also has tatoos…Leviticus anyone?”
-
You need to learn you some Scripture reading, bro. And in fact, it actually doesn’t matter if you understand the various types of OT law, you need to understand that what you think someone else should believe about what they read in the Bible is irrelevant as far as that person’s ability to act on his beliefs are concerned.

John K. -
First, they asked for a WEDDING cake, or a cake to celebrate something that the owner could not justify participating in the celebration of. This was not a birthday cake, or a “I want cake tonight” cake, it was a cake to celebrate an act that the owner considered immoral. No one should have to help people celebrate acts that he thinks are immoral.
-
Second, whether or not you think comparisons to bestiality are ridiculous or offensive is irrelevant, the comparison is still there. You think the comparison is ridiculous because you find bestiality repugnant and you do not find homosexual acts repugnant. But your opinions are irrelevant to how the owner of the cake shop should act. It is whether or not HE thinks they are similarly forbidden that matters, not what you think; bestiality is mentioned because as messed up as our culture is, it still recognizes that that is wrong. The idea is to have you think how you would feel being forced to celebrate bestiality in a world where it is considered nearly normal by others and but repugnant by you, and to discover that that is wrong, and then to realize that the gay movement is doing that exact same thing to Christians RIGHT NOW.
-
It just so happens that you don’t personally find homosexual acts objectionable and you do find bestiality so, but again, your opinions are meaningless when we discuss how others should be able to live according to their beliefs.

Its a pity that so many “christians” are so quick to defend bigotry, hatred and discrimination.  The USA is not a theocracy.  We live a nation of diverse faith traidtions and lifestyles.  “Christians” or “RCs” are not entitled to impose their religious beleifs on the broader secular society.

The kind of bigotry expressed in a number of comemnts above is the result of ignorance and irrational fear.  It is sad and pathethic that the RCC promotes this kind of hatred, bigotry and support of discrimination.  It a sign of a dying insitution.

Bravo ot John K for his remarks above.

John K. said,

Freedom of religion does not mean freedom to harm others during the course of business of being a public accommodation to make a point.  Freedom of religion is not a blank check to do whatever you want and claim your religion demands it.

 
First of all, there is a distinction between doing something and refusing to do something.  The baker is not asking to “do whatever… [he]... want[s].”  He’s refusing to do something that someone else wants him to do.
 
Second, the omission in this case isn’t done with the intention of bringing harm to anyone.  He simply refused to lend his services to an event that they think is good but which he believes is objectively harmful itself.  In that sense, he’s actually avoiding harm, or at least avoiding personal involvement in it.
 
The law itself is what is unjust, at least when applied to this situation (it may not be when applied to other situations).  While you may think it’s not, a Christian has a duty to refuse cooperation with unjust laws or unjust enforcement whenever possible.

The trouble with solid Christian beliefs (including the one that sodomarriage is wrong) is that participating in the celebration of a sin is a sin. 

Thank you, Deacon Jason Miller, for alluding to a cake commemorating the birthday of Hitler being something that one just CANNOT accept.  And, John K., calling Donna “ridiculous” for saying that sodomarriage cakes can be compared to bestiality cakes is in itself a fallacious argument not allowed in formal debates.

Deacon,

You can discriminate as much as you want, but not without consequences.  It is against the law to treat people badly for certain things i.e. religion, race, sexual preference.  If you want to be a public accomidation, take the publics money, you have treat people in a legal way.  You have a problem with that?  Really?

How sinful is it for the maker of a gun, if it is used to laterkill someone? Not sinful at all.
How sinful was it for the carmaker whose car became Hitler’s automobile? No sin there either.
Does a printer who is Republican have the right to print only GOP materials? No, he has a business license from the state, and cannot discriminate with whom he does business.
It is ridicule-ous that Catholics don’t want anything to do with ICKY homosexuals. There is the discrimination: conducting a business where you treat some customers differently than others.
Make the dam cake, and then go to mass and pray that your children are not born homosexual, because they will suffer under your bigotted hands.

it appears there are some americans who believe you cannot practice your religion and run a business in america.  if your religious beliefs conflict with others, the others have a right to demand you run your business according to their beliefs.  that is most certainly a new concept of who owns what.

what is the definition of sexual orientation under the law?  how is a person’s sexual orientation objectively proven?  if there is no way to objectively prove a person’s sexual orientation how can sexual orientation be the cause of a legal dispute?  if objective proof is not needed, what is to stop people from claiming one sexual orientation to day when they see a benefit in doing so and another sexual orientation tomorrow when it also provides a benefit in doing so?  are all sexual orientations (such as bestiality, necrophilia and pedophilia) also causes for legal action if a person refuses to condone them? does anyone have rational answers to my questions?  i would like to hear these rational answers.  i am sure that there will be opposite answers depending on a person’s view of rational, but i am open to reading answers from both sides.

John K,
You’re the one who is ridiculous!  This is America not a communist state.
The bakery has the freedom to run their business anyway they see fit. No shoes or shirt - NO SERVICE.  We don’t accept check, CASH only.  We don’t put two females on a wedding cake.  Accept it.  Religious people are not ROBOTS we will not bow down to a LEGAL FICTION.  People have free will, if the lesbians got their little heart broken then they can go shop somewhere else.  SIN IS NOT A CIVIL RIGHT!!!!! MENTAL DISORDER IS NOT A CIVIL RIGHT!!!! THONGS PARADE IS NOT A CIVIL RIGHT!!!!

Why ON EARTH did this couple approach this obviously Christian baker for their cake?  I hold with the responder who suggested that it may have been done on purpose.
John K., sexual orientation is not the issue here - the issue is that of gay “marriage”, which to many people is an abomination. The businessman was being hired to contribute his skills to a cause that completely transgresses his conscience.
Conscience trumps all.

John K.,

Sin is not a civil right!  We will not bow down to the State Legal Fiction!

Well said Sally!

This country is broken, divided.  Why is it that if we don’t believe what you believe or have the same opinions….we aren’t worth the air we breathe….why is everyone so hell bent on trying to change everyone?  My God (yes-I believe in GOD)....isn’t diversity, freedom and the right to be an “individual” what we all wanted?  What is wrong with everyone?  STOP bullying each other….live your life the way you want and leave me to mine.  Someone won’t make you a cake?  Then find someone who will ... Stop causing trouble….move on.

Since when is providing a cake to a wedding reception some kind of religious thing? Christians are ridiculous with these silly “religious” objections. They don’t even know their own religions, for God’s sake!

Homosexuals better get used to this type of treatment, because those of us with a backbone and morals will not bend to their evil ways.

“Freedom of religion does not mean freedom to harm others during the course of business of being a public accommodation to make a point.  Freedom of religion is not a blank check to do whatever you want and claim your religion demands it.”

there was no harm done here either.  the person is free to take their business elsewhere.  the only “blank check” written these days is for the hatemongers who confuse dissent of belief with discrimination.  this entire argument is inane.  how about I go into a Kosher deli and throw an adult tantrum, similar to the ones being publicized these days , because I can’t get bacon and cheese on my sandwich.  the bottom line is the deli sells sandwiches, how dare they impose their beliefs on me.  they are a business of public accommodation (isn’t that fancy btw)I thought they sold food.  sadly this is exactly what is being programmed into our children courtesy of the schools and the media.  isn’t it amazing that everyone admits that advertising works yet the same people that are up in arms about so called “gay rights”  are the first to loudly proclaim that the constant barrage of crap in the media which has steadily increased through the years has no bearing on the corrosion of our collective morality.  the truth is and always has been that if you wallow with the pigs long enough you will stop smelling the stench. it looks as though we are starting to collectively reach that point. I feel sorry for all the business owners who are not being allowed to live THEIR lives for fear of infringing on a vocal minority.

“Freedom of religion does not mean freedom to harm others during the course of business of being a public accommodation to make a point.  Freedom of religion is not a blank check to do whatever you want and claim your religion demands it.”
———————————————————————————————-
Freedom of religion means you are FREE to follow the tenets of your religion. 
Following the tenets of your religion freely unencumbered by government is an absolute Right. 
The freedom of Religion is an inalienable Right.
The Free Exercise Clause provides that government will neither control nor prohibit the free exercise of one’s religion.
Aiding and abetting someone who is sinning is a sin.  This man was not “making a point” he was FREELY practicing his religion.  His religion is very specific regarding homosexual behavior and specifically homosexual “marriage” so he was not merely “claiming” that his religion “demands it”. 

This is all very logical if you choose to practice logic. 

“Leave aside your offensive and outlandish comparison between bestiality and homosexuality,..”

I’m not sure which is more offensive, homosexuality, but only by a hair.

There are homosexuals and there are Gays. Gays have lost the sense of sin when they violate natural laws. A man who lays with a man commits a grave sin. Same for a woman who lays with a woman. It is for this reason this nation is headed for a decline. Seems like the correct forming of conscience is a thing of the past. Truth has become relative. This is the beginning of the end of our culture. The family is dying and few are mourning. How sad.
God who is the author of creation made us in his image. That is we are given creative powers. Man on man, woman on woman cannot create life. The pervert that image of God we possess as humans.

Hey that’s a new record - only 3 comments before a Hitler reference!
Cake - ovens - Jews - Hitler! It’s that simple!

So a business cannot choose its customers? It must blindly serve all according to their whim? Seriously? I would think any business can refuse service to anyone else. Just the the NC barber who sent a priest on his way, saying he wouldn’t serve his kind. As a Catholic I was shocked, but even the protest recognized this persons right to refuse service on whatever grounds he wanted. Sorry it hurt their feelings, but the business owner should make that decision and not be forced to provide. Regardless of the customer.

The real question is what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot…

“Per Oregon law (§ 659A.403) which prohibits discrimination in a place of public accommodation, all persons within the jurisdiction of this state are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older. It is an unlawful practice for any person to deny full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation in violation of this section.”

What if the owner, instead of being a Christian, was a person living a homosexual lifestyle. What would that hypothetical owner do if a Westboro Baptist Church member came in and said they wanted a cake to celebrate one of their protests, and on the cake they wanted: 1) A big cross, 2) The passage of Lev 18:22 from the Bible on it, and 3) their infamous protest statement, “God hates fags.”

Should that hypothetical owner be forced to make that cake? Please look again at the Oregon law: “are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of… RELIGION.”

The issue at hand is whether a person is being denied service altogether because of their “race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age,” or whether they’re being denied a particular special request because it offends the deeply held beliefs of the store owner.

@John K:  The affirmation of homosexual unions is what we are discussing here.  You believe that homosexual unions are morally equivalent to heterosexual marital unions.  I don’t.  Why is your belief “right” and mine “wrong”?  Suppose the only reason the store owner’s conscience cannot be harmed is because he would rather quit the business if he will be forced to affirm behavior that is both unnatural and anomalous?  Who is being harmed here?  And by whose standard?  The civil rights movement was based on the activity of African Americans as African American persons.  Being African American is first amoral - meaning there is nothing wrong with being African American.  I would say the same principle applies to homosexuals.  I am willing to consider the real possibility that being homosexual (as an orientation with psychological, perhaps even biological causes) is first amoral - meaning there is no moral problem with being oriented as such.  But, and I say but, the homosexual activity which defines what we mean by “union” in a homosexual “marriage”, namely, anal sex and or vaginal probing, is by no means morally equivalent to the un-contracepted sexual activity in a heterosexual marital union.  Homosexual activity is not the same in a physiological sense, or a psychological sense, or in a phenomenological sense.  It is not the same in kind and it is not the same in natural result (children).  It is certainly not the same in the life of an adopted child, who looks to his parents behavior as his first moral example.  It is, therefore, not morally equivalent.  No religion needed to understand this argument.

When did we lose the right to practice our faith?  Doesn’t freedom of religion apply to us too?

Would this man bake a wedding cake for a heterosexual couple who were atheists and didn’t believe that marriage had a religious or Biblical basis?

Would he bake one for a Christian couple after a civil divorce and therefore intending on living in a union that Jesus Christ called adultery?

I feel there was no need for any discrimination here. As manufacture and sale of cake by the shop owner are meant for customers, there is no need to examine whether the customer is male or female, christian or atheist, sinner or saint.  There may be real meaningful issues about the modern views on homosexuality and gay marriage and they can be fought with courage. The State cannot dictate what I should believe. Whether Christian or Muslim, or atheist, everyone has normal rights as citizens and there shall not be any imposition.

John K,

Immoral laws need to be changed. Cakes celebrating abortion, hatred, deviant sexual lifestyles should not be forced on bakers.

John K., this is totally a marketplace decision.  You’re telling me this is the only bakery in Portland?  These ladies could go somewhere else easily.  For the govt to step in and issue outlandish fines for this is absurd.

I pray for your and your wife’s continued moral courage and may you both perservere through this government tyranny. God Bless you both.

This couple had other bakeries to choose from.  They (and the state of Oregon) are infringing upon the First Amendment rights of the owners to practice their religion without interference from the government.  THis is nothing less than homosexualist bigotry, intolerance and bullying in action.

Well I look at things a bit different, as a Christian American. I was in the USMC as a Chaplain’s Assistant in the 60s. As an American, I was there to fight for our American freedoms. One of these is the Freedom of Religion. The only way we have freedom Of Religion, is also to have Freedom From Religion where no one dictates your belief system based on Religion. The Chaplains Corps had to serve the Jewish faith, Buddhists, Hindu, etc..as well as honor those free not to believe in any relition. That is who we are as a nation and why we are free to believe without anyone telling us or other Americans what they have to believe. If you are in a business you are not supporting their belief system buy serving them a cake with whatever they want to decorate it with if you are serving the American Public. IMO
At least that is why I dedicated my service to the US Military for 30 yrs for. My freedom is very important to me and I hate to be told what I must believe or to have others dishonor my freedom to believe the way I want to.

I might also add a thought. The Bible says ( Tho shalt not Kill) But if a Christian bakery serves cakes and sugar products, celebrating with people that are diabetics they may be contributing to their demise and potential loss of life. It is not the business of people offering services to the community to dictate their belief systems on that community, but to offer examples of Christian or whatever faith they believe. If they follow the example of the Bible, they will treat others as they would want to be treated. If they are incapable of treating others the same as they would have wanted to be treated they should not be preaching Christianity.
I wonder what they would do if a Hermaphrodite couple came in to get a cake to represent marriage for them?  They are born with fully developed gentilia of both genders so are not either completely male or female? The statistics are that 1 in 1200 people are born with some form of this abnormality. Just because God did not seem to address this situation in the Bible does not mean that He did not design it that way, or that He does not love these people and want them to have their help mate. That is only if your thinking as a Christian commanded to love others as you love yourself. IMO

This is a terrible situation for Christians. I fear the next 10 years will be dangerous for Christians is this country.

“THE COUPLE had previously bought a wedding cake at the store several years before for one of the women’s mothers and her husband.”

“THE COUPLE”  “same-sex civil union”

A couple is meant to be a man and a woman, getting married or united in marriage and propagating the human race as was from the beginning of time..

Two men or two women “union” “getting married” ?
” WHICH PARTS ARE UNITED?
WHAT IS PROPERGATED?  Not the human race for sure…..

In the name of political correctness and a false, selective, freedom, if this is supposed to be the norm and the future…THE HUMAN RACE IS DOOMED TO EXTINCTION.

These bakers did not harm anyone nor were they wanting to make a point.  They stood up for their Religious belief that if compromised, would mortally harm their immortal souls and eternal salvation.
 
WHERE IS THE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM FOR THESE BAKERS TO PRACTICE THEIR FAITH?

WANTING TO MAKE A POINT AND CREATE PROBLEMS…AND SET EVIL PRECEDENTS…THESE TWO WOMEN WENT THERE KNOWING FULL WELL THAT THE BAKERS WERE CHRISTIAN.

Now for the comments:  Who will take care of these same sex seniors because their so called “same sex UNIONS” WILL NOT PRODUCE children who would care for them in their old age.

You who are so against universal health care, do you want your tax dollars to be spent to care for these future helpless same sex seniors or do you want to be forced to physically go and care for them?

Well to address the point of should a bakery make cakes for Hitler, pornographers, child molesters, or representing bestiality, the answer is no because these are equally accepted crimes of our society and not acceptable to either the religious or non religious community as acceptable. Also for a decorator to put two women on top of a cake or two male figures does not mean they condone marriage of this type just that they make cakes to celebrate what the purchaser wants to celebrate. On the subject of going into a Jewish Bakery for a cake representing Mary or Roman Catholic or Christian symbols, they do that on a regular basis if they are in the bakery business just like musicians that are Jewish sing Christian Christmas songs.

As an add on:  I would never go to a gay bar or even a gay parade because of my faith.  I will never fit in. 

However, I do believe in live and let live.  So please dear gays and lesbians don’t harass, threaten, or force yourselves, your religion, your morals and your values on me and the rest of society that do not agree or condone your behaviour and new found openness.

Welcome to the New United States of Obama and the Marxist Democrat Party.  Obama and the Marxists are targeting the “Low Hanging Fruit” BUT, wait until two Homosexuals demand that a priest marry them.  The church will receive the same treatment that small businesses are now receiving.

Some will sell their mothers and their souls when it comes to making money or gaining votes.  These also include so called cafeteria Catholic politicians.

Mrs Salazar, it is not Government Tyranny you are addressing. It is fundamentalist fanatical tyranny you are addressing. The Government is dedicated to freedom of and freedom from people imposing their personal views on the public. That is the opposite of Tyranny. You must understand that. That is why many of us joined the military to fight for the right to believe what we want, weather a dogma or not but not to impose our view on others that do not believe that God represents what you think God represents.
You may read some history. People were burned as heretics by the established Church at one time. The Church based that concept on how they interpreted the Bible and were dedicated to their interpretation. 
In the Churches Tyranny they killed people that had any belief the earth was round no matter what the facts were. That fact alone should mellow you to realize fanaticism of any kind is undesirable, and to allow people to vary in opinion may be enlightening until all the facts are out. We evolve to develop vocabulary to describe truth as well as accumulate discoveries to clarify new truths such as the earth is no longer just flat but a globe in shape. If you choose to stay in the stone age you may want to allow others to choose to progress in understanding of God who is Truth so they may worship that truth in the way God chooses to inspire the person to worship and believe. IMO

One of the reasons the Church held off in educating the Christian population to the fact the Earth is not Flat, was they did not want to make changes to what once was established as Church Dogma, because they did not want to loose the faithful from the flock. They feared loosing people in the congregation by admitting we have made mistakes and my not have represented God in complete truth. It is common historical evidence Lying for God was the thing to do to protect the congregations but that fallacy may be a bit outdated now that we have access to more truth and understanding of God’s creations.

Edwin Morel
Well ….the answer is no because these are EQUALLY ACCEPTED CRIMES of our society and not acceptable to either the religious or non religious community as acceptable.

Just “because these are equally accepted crimes of our society…”

HOMOSEXUAL UNIONS AND ACTS ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE and forbidden as sin in the Christian religion.

Being homosexual is another matter.  We are all sinners.  Love the sinner not the sin.

Eddy, to address your question on orientation. At least in my opinion, the list of sexual perversions you mention, represent acts against those who are not able to have adult human consent to a sexual or gender act.
That is how you distinguish it from consenting acts between hermaphrodites of same gender adults. An animal can not refuse sexual acts as an adult human according to the law. A young person can not legally consent to a sexual act. A hermaphrodite having sexual activity with another adult person of same mind is not against the law. Same with all the variations mentally, hormonally and other deviations from our concept of heterosexual consent. At least that is how I understand it and if there is no victim there is not law against it.

if this gay bulling case goes to court, is it an adequate legal defense for the baker to say that the couple cannot prove what their sexual orientation is and absent such proof the baker cannot discriminate against them based on their claimed, subjective and maybe transitory sexual orientation?

i do not understand why the gay couple’s beliefs should be considered superior to the baker’s beliefs.  where does the government get the authority to decide whose beliefs are superior?

Edwin,
This is a Catholic website. Please go troll on non-Catholic websites. It would be a sin for the baker to provide a ‘wedding’ cake for a homosexual ‘couple’. Catholicism has worked for about 2000 years and will continue to bring contentment and happiness to those who practice it even though many others seem to have the only goal of persecuting the Catholic Church by defamation, misinformation, and propaganda.
Please tolerate us Catholics, what we practice is only goodness.

Karen, I did not mean any disrespect. I would not disrespect you by calling you a troll, for I also as you do practice the Biblical concept of doing unto others as I would have them do unto me.
I was merely presenting information to help with understanding as to evaluate the cake situation. If presenting historical information is defamation then it should be defamed for God is truth not distortion or misinformation or propaganda. I did not present defamation, misinformation or propaganda but the view of why the Government can not tolerate tyranny even from the church and clarification as to what the word means. As far as the Church you also have Clergy that disagree on the points presented here so you may find that true in weather or not making a cake in a business would be a sin or not.
Also the 2000 yrs you mention there have historically been a lot of changes in interpretation. It is not propaganda that even in the services when i was a kid they were all in Latin now most can be enjoyed in English. It was also in my time that we were not allowed to read the Bible in English for fear we might misinterpret it. I do not have anything but reverence for the Roman Catholic Church and it’s Clergy and the dedicated people serving it’s causes. Sorry you felt you needed to come to it’s rescue.

Eddy,

Having to prove sexual orientation is NOT a legal requirement for marriage in any of the 50 states. Legal requirements for civil marriage are gnerally in the areas of :

Are you a living, breathing adult capable of consenting to the rights and responsibilites of the contract of marriage?

If you are not of legal age to consent, do you have signed permission from parent(s) to marry?

If you and your intended spouse are related by blood, is the marriage permitted under the statutes of the state in which you wish to marry?  Its not.  Its about the gender of the person you wish to marry.

I am not certain why you think sexual orientation is relevant to the fundamental right to marry

so, edwin is proposing that animals that humans can kill and eat, use as beasts of burden, kill for sport have some mystical right to be protected from human actions that edwin designates?  kind of sounds like the federal government saying that they and only they can secretly assassinate american citizens.  it makes not an iota of sense on its face.  who is the victim in necrophilia?

What is sad is to sse the many hateful and bigoted comments on this thread.  The RCC and RC seem to be obssessed with sex and sexuality.  And seemed obssessed with imposing RCC teacing on our broader secualr society.

It is sad that to see that the RCC and RCs are not obssessed with ending war, hunger, poverty, with protecting the earth.  Those are the compelling issues of our times.  Who cares who want to marry who??

Why are we not obssessed about the millions of people who are hungry, who are starving, who are being killed in war, who are homeless, with those around the world who have nothing because of our greed?  why are not obssessed with caring for the earth—a poisoned and depleted planet will truly mean the end of all life.  We need to work to end war, poverty, hunger.  We need to work hard to care for our planet/our home so that it can continue to sustain us.

We are focused on the wrong stuff here.

Yes the customers can go elsewhere.  It is not a discrimination, the Bakers were simply standing up for their beliefs.  A wedding cake symbolises a gay union which goes against our Christian beliefs therefore a Christian baker in conscience cannot make a cake for such a union.  The gay couple in question have plenty of other bakers to go to.  Why did they choose a very obviously Christian one ?

edwin,
i asked how there could be a legal cause of action based on an unprovable allegation.

Poor “partner” was “reduced to tears.” Would someone lend her a hanky? Bake your own cake, lady. Grow up before you get “hitched.” Why do sodomites want to drag everyone else into their sordid affairs?

it is quite clear that gays and their supporters are nothing more than bullies determined to force their value system on everyone else.  they have no respect for either the beliefs or opinions of those who disagree with them.  in fact, they are determined to eliminate the right of anyone to disagree with them.  they do not even seen the coontradcitory absurdity of claiming the right to believe and act based on those beliefs whiledenying that same right to those who disagree with them.  in that respect, they are followers of mao tse tung’s, the leader who had 60 million of his countrymen murdered, assertion that power comes from the barrel of a gun.  in other words, they are adherents of the evil maxim that “might makes right”.

it is interesting to see the self-righteousness underlying lisa kaiser’s accusations against and condemnations of those who do not see things her way.  do you suppose she also sees herself as a tolerant and rational human being?  would that be the epitome of cognitive dissonance?

Well Ann, There are many Gay sponsored Christian Churches, such as many of the Episcopal and many Methodists and Glide Memorial etc…throughout the world. Even Great Britain is on the verge of legalizing gay unions as a predominately Christian Nation. So the fact that the bakery has crosses on it’s walls does not negate their acceptance of homosexuality nor does it have much to do with who they do business with. I am sure they serve Atheists and non believers without in any way condoning what they believe they offer sweets for sale decorated according to the demands of the business.
Jewish jewelers sell wedding rings to non Jews without questioning their union as non Jews.
Jewish Wedding Singers also participate in voice to Christian recordings and celebrations without condoning their worship of Christ or the Virgin Mary and RC Saints.

Lisa not sure what your point is? I am not for or against same sex marriage. I am not interested in marriage myself and never have been and am now 74 yrs of age so probably will never be. haha..I was just attempting to offer views on why people think the way they do, as well as why, as an American I am happy to support Freedom of Religion as well as freedom from Tyranny to be forced to believe in any one religion. I support that same freedom for others as an American and do not understand the View of any American to force their beliefs on any other American. My relatives are mostly Atheists and I am the outcast as a Christian at the age of 9 and dealt with the family prejudices. I also learned that most of the Atheists in my family did act more in the Christian Spirit of do unto others as you would want them to do unto you than many of the devote Church goers I have met.  I am highly involved in the ecumenical movement and was very active in the Marine Corps Chaplains Service fighting for the same rights for all Americans.

Lisa Kaiser you sound like an ex-Catholic (the second largest religion in the world). What makes you think this Christian baker was of the Catholic Faith? The Catholic Church is one of the biggest leaders in charity and supporters of those who cannot speak for themselves. I’m guessing that it’s OK for those to push their agenda on Christians (and Jews since Leviticus is in the Old Testament aka the Torah) but Christians cannot stand up for their beliefs? Christian or Jew do NOT hate gays (aside from those ignoramuses belonging to the Wesboro Baptist church). If they do, they are not truly a Christian or Jew.

eddie,
I could not understand your comment. It is not me that gives animals human rights that does not equate with the law against bestiality it is the law not mine. Can not understand how you got that from my statements. The same with Necrophilia? A dead person can not consent any more than an animal, or a child. Do not understand where you got that idea from haha…in all respect you are a bit confusing. Sorry if my communications confused you.

As I mentioned before, I do not have any personal agenda because marriage is not part of my life, nor future.

I am only considering it as first of all a Christian, and as an American who believes in freedom of as well as from religion.

It was mentioned the part of the Bible saying God made man and woman and they were to marry and have fruit…but it did not say that an impotent man or a barren woman could not marry and be help mates to each other.

The Bible does not say that a man wounded in the war that is no longer capable of the sexual act can not marry a woman or visa versa in gender role.
The Bible does not mention what to do with hermaphrodites with both gender equipment developed and who they are to marry ...it just says that it is not good for man to be alone so he made a help mate for him. Just a thought to consider.

The Bible was not written as a science book but in thousands of yrs we have learned something as well as have been given more words to identify truths that were not identified thousands of yrs ago to better identify truth.

The Commandments sort of give us the templet though, to follow by advising us to love our neighbor as our-self. That is if we are to be acting as Christians. As Americans we are to respect the non believers as well or those believers that have different viewpoints than us.

One Reason we are one nation under God, and free to believe is to rid ourselves of the tyranny of a country that was ruled by one church doctrine. All you have to do is read history and know all the specifics.

If anyone thinks that culture hasn’t been created for you for a particular time in history and isn’t continuing to be created at this moment; then you may want to do yourself a little favor: look into the Congress of Cultural Freedom. Look into the Frankfort School (Theodor Adorno) and the Macy group.  Inter-generational sex and bestiality and even necrophilia are well under way to being “normalized”. 
A conference to normalize pedophilia (“inter-generational” sex) was held in 2011 with Harvard and Johns Hopkins participation. The DMS-IV will be changed again. And if you don’t like it; a psychological disease moniker in the DSM-IV is being prepared for you. You may want to stop prattling on about anatomical cakes and look a bit further up the pyramid.  (Good luck to the baker who is being dragged through the mud right now. If he’d been smart, he would’ve baked the crappiest cake he’d ever baked for those 2 jerks. You can’t play with these people unless you play hardball. They have no mercy.)

Imagine that; an evil businessman refusing to make money off of someone.  What’s this world coming to?

Let’s take this train to it’s logical end…Let’s force car dealers to let blind people test drive new cars.

“Reduced to tears” over someone refusing to bake them a cake?  Oh, the drama.

BBHall,  I did not say the baker was RC.  My comments above talk about “christians” generally. 

If you someone has a business that serves the public, then it needs to serve the public.  If someon has qualms about serving the public, then being in business is probably not a good career fit.

As for letting the blind drive—that is putting people in danger andwould be illegal—since drivers are required to have a license and insurance.  Blind people cannot obtain either.  So letting the blind drive is not a logical extension of this discussion.

Again, what really stands out in reading the comments above is the rampant bigotry and lack of empathy.  Some pundit said that Mitt Romney did not elected becasue he has a clear and total empathy-deficit.  Lack of empathy is what is very apparent in many of the comments above.

Another point:  geing gay is NOT the same thing as being a pedophile.  Some of the comments above try to equate the two and that is inaccurate.

It is jsut sad that that the RCC is seems to be so very successful in in turning out RCs who are obsessed with sex/sexuality, who have no empathy, who have no interest in endng, hunger, war, poverty, who think that discrimination, bigotry and hatred are good values and are good values for our nation as a whole.  So many of these same arguements were amde by those who opposed racial integration==you know the idea that racial integration in society was morally wrng and that white business owners had the right to refuse to serve people of color.  Same arguements, different decade.  Just sad to see nothing has changed. 

Sad to see that the RCC, “RCs” and “christians” embrace these arguments.  The only silver lining is that these attitudes will not prevail in the long-run.

How does this differ than the gay boy who wants to joint the boy scouts; however, the Catholic church insists that if they fund this organization, gay boys are excluded?  And it is a bunch mof pedofiles making the rules.

If I were a bakery owner, I’d get out of the wedding cake business. At this point, you can fully expect this kind of thing to come up…especially when there are people out there who intentionally provoke such confrontations in order to harass believers (not that this case is one of those, but it does happen).

There can’t be any legal argument against a bakery that doesn’t do wedding cakes at all, for anyone. (Unless the Obama administration passes a law that all bakeries must sell wedding cakes - wouldn’t put it past them.)

This culture has decided that doing whatever you want sexually and having everyone affirm it is a more important right than religious freedom. Which totally contradicts the Bill of Rights, but they don’t care.

It will be difficult to work in many fields because of such things. We should plan accordingly and not be surprised when harrassment comes.

We need to not complain, or become bitter, but count ourselves as blessed to suffer hardship for the love of Christ and the truth of the Gospel, like the heroes and martyrs of old. This life is short, and then we meet Jesus. It is Him we must please. We must be loving and at the same time utterly immovable when it comes to the truth. He is counting on us.

It’s unfortunate that there is no longer a frontier where we could go like the our founding fathers and mothers who came here did, and start a new society.

If I were a bakery owner, I’d stop doing wedding cakes altogether, and I’d do that now, before someone comes in and I’m confronted with a lawsuit…because this will only happen more and more the way things are going…and because some people are targeting Christian businesses on purpose just to harass them. (Not saying this case, but it does happen.)

There can’t be any legal argument against a bakery that doesn’t do wedding cakes at all, for anyone. Unless the Obama administration passes a law that all bakeries must sell wedding cakes - wouldn’t put it past them.

For those who don’t understand objections to homosexuality, the essence is basically that it is completely unnatural behavior. It is as unnatural as bestiality or pedophilia, which involve behaviors everyone still recognizes as unnatural and wrong. Basically, sodomy isn’t equal to coitus is what it comes down to. Making hemmoroids isn’t equal to making a baby. It harms the common good to promote that idea that it is, especially by way of redefining marriage.

Edwin, please supply one, just one factual, reputable source to back up your claims about the Church and its supposed concern over the Earth being flat or round.  Please, just one source.

I’ll help you out… you won’t find any.

Christians have a duty to up hold what God instituted.
Having a tattoo does not prevent a person from entering heaven. If that was the case, it would have been mentioned in the New Testament.
It is the non believer that attacks people of faith.

I see this as a supply and demand problem.  If I walked into that bakery and ordered a Big Mac, I’d expect (and accept) then to say “Sorry, we don’t sell those.  Is there something else I can make for you?”  If the couple ordered a same-sex-wedding cake, the owner could fairly say “Sorry, we don’t sell those.  Is there something else I can make for you?”

Hey X-Tians…

ever hear of the Constitution?  FYI, Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 (a.k.a the Commerce Clause) gives the Federal Government the power to regulate commerce.  Today, the FedGov has decreed that any commercial business must provide its goods and services to any who request it. The shop keeper may NOT refuse. Either park your “morals” at the door, or close that business. It’s that simple.

Another FYI… today, legal equals moral. If it’s legal, it’s moral; illegal is immoral. The “natural law” of Sir Wm Blackstone has been thoroughly repudiated, replaced by the positive law of Prof. Jeremy Bentham. Bentham called ‘natural (Catholic) law’ “nonsense upon stilts”. You really should read about Bentham, since his ideas are the foundation of today’s morals and laws.

Roman Catholicism is immoral and for all practical purposes, illegal. Your “morality” is now in the same league as the KKK and Skinhead Nazis. Americans may have to tolerate your presence, but that does not mean we have to accept it or respect it. Renounce your religion or face the dungeon.

Well I tend to agree in some way with both sides of thinking. I think it just childish of both sides. If the one lady find that the baker did not want to do a gay cake so what, but the baker making a deal out of it was just as immature. IMO
It is like in the news the guy taking his dog to the pound because it hump another male dog and he did not want a gay dog. He went to euthanize it. He was too stupid to know it was not a sexual act but act of dominance. My female dog did that to the male dog as well.
The thing I am concerned about is the things are done in the name of the Church and Christianity and make us all look really ignorant and dumb and like we are still in the times of kill those who don’t believe the earth is flat because we are tooooo backwards and ignorant to admit we might not know the whole truth. We do it in the name of God…when will we ever learn…???? Activities like this actually take people out of the established Church because ignorance does never represent God in any way. IMO
Also one of the 7 deadly sins is selfish pride, Arrogance.
My gripe is not with the belief that anyone feels homosexuality is wrong,for religious reasons, but that they think that thinking that way as an American, does mean you can deny their freedom to be that way. If you don’t allow them that freedom you don’t deserve your freedom to believe the way you do. Thus….do unto others and you would have them do unto you….your own Bible tells you this. Stop showing the world how many more Christians in the world are hypocrites by not following their own commandments. IMO

You know that throughout history, Nuns and Priests have given their lives serving the Lepers inflicted by the disfiguring disease. Even Jesus himself did this.
They also realized that that disease was contagious and many died of the disease themselves, especially in Hawaii many books and dvds are there for your education on this subject. 

It is less of a hazard to show love and support, and compassion, to the gays because homosexuality is not contagious.

Jesus healed the sex slave of the centurion and made no comment of a negative nature to either the centurion nor the homosexual sex slave.
Jesus was often condemned by the lack of compassion of the Pharisees and their arrogance and superiority. Just some things that we might think about when approaching this subject.

You do not have to practice homosexuality to respect them as part of Gods creation and we have all fallen short of the Glory of God. We are all sinners, yes even those of us who engage in gossip, lies, and hate for our fellow man.

Jesus said if you have hate in your heart for your brother it is as if you had killed him. We murder others psychologically and as real as if we killed them face to face in body.
Thus the numbers that commit suicide every day for their handicap.

So now according to John K and Lisa, we should torture and burn Jews who refuse to eat pork at the command of the king. Wait! Didn’t that happen in the Old Testament? Seven brothers tortured and killed with their mother egging them on to die for the Lord. It just shows you the times we are living in. People cannot think their way out of a paper bag! Sure I eat pork. But for those Jews it was equivalent to saying they didn’t believe in the One True God, but accepted the gods of pagans surrounding them. I think it’s interesting that Satan recently told the Pope to “Shut Up!” via a half naked lesbian couple. When Satan is disturbed that’s a good sign we are getting to him. There is nothing but love in refusing to bake that cake, love for God and His laws. Also love for that lesbian couple because if the baker hadn’t challenged their beliefs so openly they could have just gone their merry into the barbecue pit. And the baker would have gone with them. Now they have to think. Now they have a hope of eternal happiness with God. That’s what the baker hoped for—their true happiness, and may he get his desire. Unfortunately, given our times, he may have to be tortured a little before that happy outcome can occur. Blessed are they who are persecuted! Rejoice and be glad for your reward in heaven will be great. God bless you all. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

I wonder if to clear up this bakers problem, if he advertised Christian Wedding cakes vs wedding cakes in general if he would have satisfied the truth in advertising as well as alleviated the problem of making a wedding cake for gays?  I also wonder if he would make wedding cakes for Jews, or Hindu, or other faiths other than Christian.
Of course if the bakery were located in a Tyrannical country who only accepted one faith like many Muslim countries there would be no problem.

But in an American Country it is taken for granted we serve the public and the diversity of faiths and beliefs. Where the line is drawn is where people claim a victim for their traditions which of course we consider illegal.

In some way not serving someone for their alternative belief is in itself making them a victim of ridicule and not in the Spirit of Love and respect as part of God’s creation.

On the comment about letting the Blind test drive motor vehicles you might read the following:http://www.ted.com/talks/dennis_hong_making_a_car_for_blind_drivers.html

The blind also are capable of riding bicycles, as well as horses, and in some cases have successfully driven a vehicle under controlled experiments. My degree is in special education for teaching the visually handicapped. It seems there are many prejudices out there that are only held by the totally ignorant who have opinions about things they know nothing about, like because you do not see the earth as round you consider you may fall off if you drive your car far enough. Are we not still burning the knowing people as heretics because we personally do not understand the truth?? just wondering.???

This is the tip of the iceburg people. If this continues and all states embrace this lie this will snowball. With an increase also in people wanting something done about religious hate crimes, Christian/Catholic churches will be punished for refusing to conduct these “ceremonies” or there will be arrests and jail time as it will be considered a “hate crime”.

“their money was not equal to others”

Guess what? Your money isn’t equal to others. Because money is the exchange of value as determined by human actors. You may yet find your money is valued (more equal) to the corrupt society-undermining-socialists-riding-in-to-save-the-day Democrats, but you can’t force others to change their values.

“The owner also has tatoos…Leviticus anyone?” -Rover Servton

Adding on to Jacob’s suggestion, the answer to why the homosexual sex ban has been retained from Leviticus while other mitzvot against tattoos or shellfish have not is answered by the Council of Jerusalem, in the Book of Acts. Laws against unlawful marriage (which meant sexual acts) still apply. The Council’s continued references to pagan worship (eating blood, etc.) also tell the tale as sodomy was practiced in various pagan worship ceremonies and today’s sodomy is a worship of pagan deities (body, self, lust) in opposition to God.

That pro-gays continue this Leviticus-says-this-too line reveals a serious lack of scholarship, especially by those pro-gays who claim to be or separated from Christianity where the Book of Acts may be the most read book of the NT after the Four Gospels. Such failure of scholarship can only be explained by intellectual dishonesty.

“The USA is not a theocracy.  We live a nation of diverse faith traidtions and lifestyles.  “Christians” or “RCs” are not entitled to impose their religious beleifs on the broader secular society.” - Lisa Kaiser

I see what you did there. You imposed your own liberal theocracy upon the broader secular society and then banned and shamed anyone from challenging your domain. You’re a clever one, but you’re also a theocrat even if you do believe you concepts of metaphysical words “justice” and ” equality” are without moral value.

Your flaunt your own moral garb all around the naked public square.

Well it is strange how focused Christians are on the same things the pharasees were focused on that irritated Christ, yet they call themselves Christians? That always did confuse me. He said you have eyes to see and do not see, and ears to hear and do not hear. After working with the Blind myself, that statement seems a lot more clear to me, haha…The message of love and compassion for Gods creation of Mankind seems to be lost on who is the most important of Gods creation vs us all taking care of and protecting each other in gratitude because of our brotherhood from Adam and Eve..if you believe in the Bible and Genesis.

The concept of do unto others as you would have them do unto you, as well as the commandment to not bear false witness seem also to often be overlooked by who claim to be our co-believers. haha wow wonder why?

But the good point is we have come a long way beyond our past of the earth is flat and kill any heretic that believes any other way, to strive for truth and love of fellow man and support of all mankind and our environment.

In my 73 yrs have seen a great progress in spite of those who would hold society back to the stone age of tribal warfare.

Lisa you make some great points so glad to hear you out here.

Well Joe you seem to be like someone I have chatted with before on another blog. If you want evidence all you have to do is google it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=historical+documentation+of+the+concept+of+the+Church+considering+that+the+earth+was+flat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
It is also part of the history of many of our ancient scientists that were originally established Roman Catholic Educators that were chastised by the Church for being heretics. The Roman Catholic is the Mother Church of all Christianity so is a part of all our history if we are a member of any Christian Church, so we are all educated to know these facts.

George, yes the Christian does have a duty to hold what God instituted, but as Americans in a public business we have a duty to serve Americans. Americans have freedom of religion so we are to allow them their freedom as well as they allow us our freedom. Our religion needs to be our private belief. I do agree if they advertise selling only Christian wedding cakes then they do not have to make wedding cakes for atheists or homosexuals or Buddhists or Hindu’s or Jews etc…But that should be on their advertisement ...but then again

I am not sure that would make them a legitimate bakery. I am not Jew, but do buy Hebrew franks…they don’t seem to mind selling them to me. Now if the bakery only sells to Christian Churches and is not a public bakery that might be different.

It is not a public business but a specialized and private business. I am not sure if this is a legal distinction or not just thinking of how it could be done to accommodate the prejudicial intent of the Baker.

George where do you get the idea that the non believer is the only one attacking the people of faith? Christ Himself was constantly criticizing the laziness and lack of faith of His followers.

He was always at the throat of the money changers defiling His Father’s house, as well as the Pharisees, and the Politicians that ended up hanging him as a heretic in the end. Do you not read your Bible or know your Church history or any ancient history?

If we are Christians, and Christ is our example we need to criticize what we do not agree with on subjects that other Christians are presenting.

If we enjoy our freedom of religion we also need to respect that freedom by not imposing our religious beliefs on other Americans. I am thankful for the freedom to worship or not to worship. It is nice to live where I will not be killed if it were known I was a Christian as is the rule in some Islamic countries where they can kill you for believing in Christianity. Where is our respect of this freedom?

Charles what you are referring to is a religious argument. The idea of selling a cake with two women on it vs a man and a woman is not a religions but decorative decision. It is a matter of sales of items. The people getting married could just as easily asked to make a wedding cake, and bought the two dolls to put on the top separately and we would not be having this discussion. Why the Baker decided it was his business to determine what they were doing with the cake was against his religion is very dumb and should not even be a part of the discussion. It was an ignorant act. IMO
It is also a matter of not serving the pledge of allegiance to the American Flag which stands for freedom of religion. Those who do not believe in our God and our specific sexual rules, give us the freedom to believe what we want if we allow them to believe what they want.

If we are in business it is none of our business what they do with a cake they buy from us if we are in a public American Bakery business. We are not under Islamic law where you have the responsibility to kill your wife or daughter if they do not follow how we interpret Islamic Law…So it stands to reason as Roman Catholic Bakers we would not need to present our religious beliefs on a purchaser of our supplies and art work. IMO
Thank God for that freedom…and for being an American.

I don’t know why it is so important to worry about what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home or bedroom, but sex is not the only reason people get together as a family.

There are many heterosexuals that are incapable to having children and that may not even be able to have sexual relations. Some get married to raise children that they adopt but need a marriage certificate to allow the kids the benefits given to parents,

such as medical and educational and economic support by both partners. 
Who is to say if two of the same gender can not also have that same right.
but that is not the point of a Baker not selling a cake to someone because they are of the same gender on the basis of a religious belief of a Baker.

If that were true he should have given a sugar test to all purchasing sweets from his store so he does not contribute to the death of any diabetic purchasing from him, because the Bible does say tho shalt not kill, and giving sugar to diabetics is a direct contribution to their death or amputations, or becoming blind.

So if the Baker is really that interested in what someone does with his products after they leave his facility he should start testing.

The truth is he has a prejudice and wants to support it by saying he has God’s support due to his interpretation of his religion. Strange though because there are other churches claiming the same God that disagree with his view on that subject too.

I have no trouble with the Baker holding this viewpoint but not his choice to dictate that belief to people his is selling to as an American business.

I grew up and was in the USMC in 1960 in Tenn attending a school to train with other Marines in flight clearance, the control tower of an airport. We were to work at the Presidents Helicopter Squadron in Quantico Va.
Well then the black Marines training with me could not go into cafe’s or restaurants with me even though the Black Marines were there to fight for the same freedoms I was there to fight for.

They could not use the same restrooms, nor even the same drinking fountains. They were not even supposed to sit with me in the buses going from one point to another.
Just think about it ...Strange to the people following these prejudices were very strong Bible Belt populations. Just think about it.

Oh bye the way, we: The black Marine and I a white Marine were being trained to transport and protect not only America, but the first Roman Catholic President of the United States but were not treated equally by the People of the Bible Belt in Tennessee. The businesses had the right to not do business with blacks even Black Marines. Where are you drawing the line on who to sell to and why do you think the Government is coming in to make sure we are American businesses not determining who to sell to based on gender, marital status, race or affiliation with any church or group.???

Just how private are our beliefs supposed to be? It is rather difficult to proclaim the Gospel message if we are supposed to keep it to ourselves. Matthew 10:27 what I say to you in the dark, tell in the light; and what you hear whispered, proclaim from the housetops. I would also refer to Luke 19:11-27, Mark 4:21-23 and Luke 11:33-36. I could just keep going on about that one topic, but I am sure you get the idea. Christians have the duty to oppose anything that is morally wrong. Jesus healed the “sex slave” of the centurion? Where does it say that it was his homosexual sex slave? That sounds more like wishful thinking. If he did have a sex slave, I would bet that Jesus would say something about that as well. Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 7:1-10. How is Catholicism immoral? We are not going to renounce God. Haters want people of faith to renounce God. Ah, the irony.

Another thing that is nuts is the way the homosexual agenda tries to equate homosexuality with racial discrimination. Homosexuality has only one focus, and that is to make homosexual acts the new normal. Racial discrimination is also wrong and should not be allowed. However, to equate them together is just as wrong. As a matter of fact, the Catholic Church states the following here - http://www.catholiccrossreference.com/tools/#!/ccc/t/“homosexual”

Not to put words in the poster’s mouth, the Immorality referred to pointed to the Roman Catholic Church, may only be referring to them imposing their interpretation of the Bible, as well as their religious dogma on the entire world. This is little different that that dogma imposed on the Islamic countries that are saying their dogma or die or wrong.

The enormous overlooking of the evolution of changes of viewpoints as we learn more about truth and more vocabulary to express or identify Nature’s truths, the more we identify the fallacies of many historically held dogmas.

Even the past Pope’s have admitted and apologized for the sins of the Church that was accomplished in the name of the Church so it is not a new concept that there have been flexibilities.

To impose dogmatic views on the masses rather than allow them to evolve into the light of spirituality themselves, denies the fact that it is those that disagree that change the church dogma to more coincide with truth.

If God is truth and if the commandment is not to bear false witness then we need those who disagree with the past dogma, in order to evolve closer to God.

Galileo was a heritic and issolated for finding that the earth was not the center of the Universe and that the sun revolved around the earth, but the Church condemned him for going against the teachings of the Church.

Just another reason to keep an opened mind and not kill or exclude those who have differing opinions. To do so only presumes ignorance and fanaticism, and strange that those that hate fanatics the most seem may also find that they are the most fanatical in their own personal views.

Fanaticism is not dedication to God but a displaced worship of dogma. The vary thing that Christ criticized the Pharisees for. That is what he meant by they had eyes but could not see and ears but could not hear..

.they could not detach themselves from dogma to learn and see and hear the evolution of truth.

I am not saying I have the truth just offering ideas to help us have opened minds as well as support the American Way of freedom of Religion and freedom from having to believe in any one dogma. The imposition of your beliefs on me or mine on you.

The American Freedom of Religion is not my belief but the basis of what our country was founded to avoid the tyranny of one ruling religion on the countries our founding fathers came and escaped from. That is what I am in support of.
Yes you can preach your view if someone is interested in hearing it and sees your joy in your faith and wants some of that but not unless they want to hear it.
Jesus preached but did not demand people listen to Him. He did criticize those who were supposed to be preaching His Fathers Faith and were not following the meaning of the words or the money changers who made economics out of the faith.

He did criticize His followers (apostles) when they were sleeping on the job or not being faithful. He did criticize those condemning him for healing on the Sabbath and supping with the gentiles etc…many things the dogma said was wrong. 

Then when he preached to the multitudes they were there to hear him he did not go to those who were not interested in His message. He criticized His own often.
Well again this is just my opinion. For what it is worth ...if someone understands it that is the purpose if not sorry for taking the time up here.

Well George does the Catholic Church address the classification of sexuality of the Hermaphrodites? Who should they marry and though most of them feel they were made that way by God and want to stay that way that many doctors want to decide for them what organs to allow them to have even prior to the development of their hormones, and even before their bodies have a chance to develop any form of gender role?

Do you know that 1 in 1200 births have some form of this malady, and that if this is true, there just may be a lot of variations of this gender thing.
Did you know that some cultures even have more than 20 words for the variations of gender while we only have the basic two? 

Did it ever occur to some of you that yes it may be wrong for a heterosexual to have same sex relations, but not for someone with variations in hormonal levels that tend to be genetically motivated.

Did it ever occur that if you don’t want homosexuals then you should not force them to have heterosexual relations.

Forcing them to act heterosexual, only procreates more of them. If you stopped them from reproducing you would decrease the numbers? If you allowed them to marry and adopt the excess of illegitimate children that heterosexuals produce and can not take care of then you would not have to worry about weather or not they were homosexuals not able to do the part you want them to of reproducing like heterosexuals.

This is just common sense.

In the OT most marriages were arranged, you did not marry someone you loved so the arranged marriages were mainly for economic reasons and homosexuality was commonly practiced.

Also the polygamy and sex slaves and concubines were common and did not seem to be criticized by God that talked to them directly.

In conclusion I just want to consider what Christianity came from.
The Jewish faith and Islamic Faith came from the same source. But evolved from there.
Traditions and lifestyles are far different now than they were back then as we evolved. Some seem to fight evolving and still want to keep us in slavery and tribal warring as it was in Biblical times.
Some would have us go back to the polygamy and sex slaves and concubines and following the 613 commandments to the letter.
Christ said we could just follow the ten commandments and do just as well.
Notice that the first part…loving God then, He goes on to say Love your neighbor, then love yourself…hum…seems to sound like America and the Constitution…if you love your neighbor as you love yourself you would not want them to try to make you think the same as them if you were both satisfied with the way you are thinking.

If you respected others you would not want them to become victims of others so you might make laws against making victims as we do giving us all freedom to believe or not believe in yours or my dogma.

The Quakers believe in individual enlightenment and how God gives information to each of us according to our unique and individual abilities. According to the Gifts we are given. That is respecting God and leaving it up to Him. Not just what you call God or what I call God.

We may not even have yet developed a very accurate concept of who or what God is and without allowing us to develop and evolve we would never get the vocabulary or wisdom or knowledge to identify that entity. We have to do it in our own way. Torture and Tyrannical forcing of dogma on others will not do it. Example may and maybe that is the strongest message we can get from the reading of The Life of Christ. 

Remember when they wanted to stone the prostitute as was the tradition, the law and the way to do things…Christ said let he who is guiltless of sin cast the first stone.

Then the Bible says By Grace are ye saved and not of yourself lest any man should boast???  hum so where does that stand in 2013? Room for stepping back and looking at how far we have come as a society and how far we still have to go?  I don’t know I don’t have the answers just the questions. Good luck in your search..when you find out let me know.

I am not searching for anything. It does not matter what you call it, homosexuality is still a sin and God is not going to change his mind about that. The New Testament lists what will prevent someone from going to heaven. The Old Law is finished. However, there are some things that are universal. Therefore, homosexuality is still a sin, and someone who is having homosexual sex will not enter heaven. Jesus also said to sin no more. Homosexual acts are sinfull.

The Catholic Church does not personally interpret the bible. It hands down what was taught by the Apostles as given them by Jesus. As I have already stated, the Church has the duty to preach the gospel message.

Luke 10:16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

John 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my word has a judge; on the last day the word that I have spoken will serve as judge,

1 Thessalonians 4:8 Therefore whoever rejects this rejects not human authority but God, who also gives his Holy Spirit to you.

The Popes have apologized for the abuses, not for what was handed down by the Apostles.

The First Amendment -

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

“We are not under Islamic law where you have the responsibility to kill your wife or daughter if they do not follow how we interpret Islamic Law…So it stands to reason as Roman Catholic Bakers we would not need to present our religious beliefs on a purchaser of our supplies and art work. “
Edwin, Jesus ordered us to “Go preach the Gospel to All Nations.” There wasn’t any caveat about omitting it from the wedding cake.
Today’s reading at Mass was about a great martyr who witnessed to marriage: St. John the Baptist, beheaded because he told King Herod he should not be shacking up with his brother’s wife. Surely, he could have avoided that martyrdom if he’d just left the message off the wedding cake?  Whether your sins be scarlet or small, Jesus wants to be consoled with your presence in His Life. Nothing can separate you from the love of God. Please understand that. But for those of us who know the difference between right and wrong, we have an obligation to tell others. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Edwin Morel,
So you’ve chosen to define a cake business, and so narrowly to divorce the business decisions from the incentives of the human actors, but refuse to accept the constant definition of marriage. You must be the new Webster.

Thanks for the comments George and Susan, very well said and meaningful. Also some very strong truths.
It is true that many have lost their lives to preach the Word of God. Including the Apostles. But it is not the Word of God I am saying that is not evolving but the interpretation of it and how it has been distorted to fit our Individual Dogma. The evidence of this is why we have so many diverse churches that stem from the Abraham lineage. They all feel they are the only interpretation so come on be real they all are from the same beginning. That includes Islam, and Jews and Protestant and RCs. So though you claim your purity as do that all it is not a fact that the interpretation itself is pure. I am not criticizing the Pope for its apologies either I am acknowledging the fact that we do evolve in our faith as we experience new truths about linguistics, and how the original writings were worded and about all the areas of study give us new knowledge of the times and traditions etc of the Biblical period we learn our mistakes and rectify them.
Hey yes preach as they did in ancient times as in the Sermon on the Mt…that is not preaching in our schools one dogma or doctrine. It is not preaching in our congress or senate one doctrine or dogma. It is not preaching in our businesses or shops, unless people are openly asking for it. America sets it up to where you can go an learn the ways freely in the churches and media or in blogs like this one where you are invited not where your dogma or doctrine of opinion are not wanted. I would not go into a bakery for a sermon but a silly cake and decorations. I would not go into a gas station for a lecture on my bedroom, moral responsibilities I have to my wife and kids.
Or that I can not have sexual positions with her that we mutually agree on, or that if we agree not to have sex I will be chastised for it by your personal persuasion.

We can not have freedom of religion if we do not also have freedom from religion.

I can not make progress on a highway freeway if the rules are not set so all that go on the freeway are allowed to follow the laws of right of way and legal direction.

I do not stop all the cars to preach my religion and views on that freeway stopping traffic. I do not see a person driving by and tell them that their hair style does not fit in with my religious doctrine because it is too long or not covered.

That is not freedom and if you believe so you should move to a country that agrees with that.

Just like respect on the freeway for the rights of other is vital for proper flow of traffic,to have freedom of religion we must also have respect for opposing views and not set up our station of preaching where ever we see fit in public places. Go ye into the world yes…but as Jesus said hospitality and mutual respect are also vital.  Paul was also chastised for eating with Gentiles for it was not the interpretation of the Jewish faith to do that for they were unclean to them. Paul said it was more important to be hospitable than to follow those costumes..

You can not show love and respect or even respect yourself if you don’t treat others as you want to be treated and if you went into a Bakery for a cake you would like to come out with a cake not a lecture on how to use that cake even if you were a dieing diabetic at the time you purchased it. IMO

“Susan unless you speak and read fluent Greek, Hebrew, and ancient Aramaic, you are interpreting. If you do not realize that ancient Greek, is different in many ways to Modern Greek, I do understand that the Jewish books were carefully copied letter by letter, but who knows it may also have evolved different from the original writings. Also we don’t even know who wrote the Gospels and if your a scholar you know that yourself.
Hey The Word of God tends to be a cop out phrase to decide that you are the authority. Well tell that to all the various churches all over the world including the primitive religions that do have similarities. The Navaho religion has many parallels. You are under delusions if you do not know only God Himself knows the Original Word of God in it’s pure first time form.
I am afraid all we have is the Word of God as interpreted by Constantine.

Yours and my preaching is very little different than cops in individual states interpreting the laws according to their particular territory. The Cop says his word as backed up by Law but that does not make it Universal Law in it’s original format.

The Church of James branch will claim it is even far superior because it leaves out any teachings by Paul because Paul never even met Christ other than in one vision yet claims most of the Gospel as from God Directly.

Often in conflict with the writings of James who was the brother of Jesus and knew him, following him personally. Who is this Word of God we punctuate our dogma and doctrines to???? it is a cop out.

I do think it all has validity but not ultimate truth only relative truth. God Himself is truth and that is the only truth as I see it but He reveals himself in your doctrine, my doctrine and the doctrine of all religions in one way or another.

To limit that is to limit God for He is omnipresent and Omnipotent..you can not take that power away from him nor from the family of man He has created. We are all Children of God world wide and all reflect His Image in one way or another.

That is if the Bible is seen in focus and peripheral vision and not as the pharisees focus, often devoid of peripheral vision thus blindness.  Christ condemned that lack of vision.

There are many aspects to what is the truth. Haste makes waste, but the opposite is also true…he who hesitates is lost.

Churches arguing doctrine often are merely arguing their own view of any one truth and maybe in some way both are truth. Just like it may be completely wrong for a heterosexual to have homosexual sex, it may also be completely wrong for a homosexual to have heterosexual sex.

But sex has nothing to do with a baker selling a cake nor do we know that a couple of same gender are even having sex as they want to combine in a marriage.

They just might be like a male and female that can not have sex for physical and health reasons get together to raise kids in their purity. Judgement is Gods not mans. God also said judge not lest ye be judged.

As I said before Jesus said you who is without sin throw the first stone even to the obvious rule breaker, the admitted prostitute. If the obvious is to be ignored from stoning by Jesus who is your example to judge someone going to buy a cake?

Well Susan it is all relative. If you were in Court and were asked a question on a traffic ticket and you answered it with a sermon from doctrine of the Church that had nothing to do with the question you would be fined. Because the command is to go and preach does not mean 24/7. Because others became martyrs, does not mean we were meant to be lemmings.
We are free to travel because of not going our own way weather or not we care that others have the same rights to going the same direction in a different vehicle. IMO
I do not want you to stop me in traffic to tell me I need to drive a Ford if I like the way I get from one place to another in a Lincoln.

I believe this man was correct in refusing to bake the wedding cake for the gay couple. Neither the State nor the Federal Government should force the business owner to go against his Christian beliefs; I believe it’s an attack on Christian values and a form of reverse discrimination.

Christians are being asked to accept the practice of homosexual behaviors as the norm, this is not according to Christian beliefs and to do so is to infringe upon one’s Constitutional protected religious expression.

I don’t think this is acceptable practice from the State or Federal Government who was founded, “one nation under God, with liberty and justice for all”. This is neither “justice” nor “liberty” for “all” especially for this business owner.

Charles:
Adding on to Jacob’s suggestion, the answer to why the homosexual sex ban has been retained from Leviticus while other mitzvot against tattoos or shellfish have not is answered by the Council of Jerusalem,

You can pick an choose why you bible was wrong and needed updating by referencing the above.  An eternal perfect document is neither if not both.

Special pleading?

So the phrase “We RESERVE THE RIGHT TO DENY SERVICE TO ANYONE” ( I often see posting in many business) applies to everyone but not homosexual people? Is that kind of creating reverse discrimination? Something is wrong with these pictures…A New Mexico Christian photographer who declined to photograph a same-sex commitment ceremony for two women was fined nearly $7,000…. A cake shop in Lakewood, Colo., faced a petition and a boycott in July 2012 after its owner declined to create a cake for a same-sex male couple, also citing his Christian beliefs…

Well Charles, just think about it. If I am not mistaken the Roman Catholic Clergy is Married to the Church. Who is the Bride Groom in the Bible? We also use the word to mean the marriage or measured union of spices and combinations for form a recipe, or working group of people married to a corporation to make it function properly.
The marriage of two people regardless of gender is a function of protecting the couple’s rights and economics if they want to protect each other and any children they have responsibility for. This is irreguardless of weather they are having sex or not or procreating. Sex and procreation are not a requirement of heterosexual marriage so should not be the business of any conscenting adults in a gay marriage. The legal aspects and economics are what is vital to their ability to care for each other and each others property and health and education as a dedicated couple. At least this is my opinion. I am not personally involved so do not have a personal agenda on this subject anyway just doing unto others as I would have them do unto me and seeing their viewpoint like a good Christian.
Remember many gays are Christians too…they just do not interpret the 5 passages you choose to use from the Bible differently than you do.

Strange there are 360 references to how to act as heterosexuals and slave owners but only 5 that could be interpreted as homosexual references.

There is not Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic word for homosexual. Seems if it was as important as the Church seems to think there would at least be a word for it.

Something to remember, Jesus was a heretic because He went beyond the laws with new ways of looking at them.

He healed on the Sabbath. etc..yet He said he was not here to change a letter of the law,

but He did put new light on the flexibility of those laws. He mentioned that if you followed the 10 commandments you would fulfill all of the 613 commandments of the OT.

..seems if we were Christians we would at leas follow them and love our neighbor as ourselves…and do unto others as we would have them do unto us..

.including a Baker making a cake for some one with a specific purpose as if it were him requesting a cake from a Jewish or Buddhist or Muslim Baker here in the United States of America.
Of course this is just my opinion.

Ian one nation under God, does not mean just the doctrine of God you follow. Freedom of Religion means freedom to choose what doctrine of God you choose to worship or not worship. Not a tyranny of one and only doctrine as well as open to freedom for Atheists as well.
Only Muslims in their country can kill those that do not worship and follow their specific doctrine.
Remember many countries used to kill any religion under communism, like the Russians kept all religion underground. That is not the American way. Freedom is inclusive not exclusive that was the purpose of the Founding Fathers many of them had conflicting views of God. Study your history.

Reserving the right to deny service it to cover people who are disruptive, or maybe even deny service you do not have supplies or expertise in supplying. Not to discriminate between the Life Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness of any race, gender, or religious persuasions.

Might I suggest that a Protestant who is a Baker if asked to have a picture of one of the RC Saints, or the Virgin Mary on their wedding cake to help them bless the marriage. And the Protestant Church that the Baker belongs to honors the Biblical passage that says not to have any graven image of anything in Heaven or Earth, and takes this literately, so denies the cake to the couple it would be little difference as I see it. Both parties are Christian but have alternative views or interpretations and focus or emphasis on words in the Bible. They have a right to opinion and doctrine and dogma but not to deny them their rights to service if we are a public business. Now a private church or specialized business not serving the public but a specific Church, may follow different rules.I don’t know…just questioning.

It is sad to see from the commment above that “Christianity” and especially the RCC, seems to be so focused on inciting hatred toward gay people.  From the comments above, it IS clear that the the RCC and “Christianity” ARE inciting hatred toward one group of people.  This is what “christianity” has sunk to??? Sad, sad, sad.

The hierarchy of the RCC wants to foster hatred toward gay people as a distrcation from thier criminal and moral failures re the widepsread, ongoing sexual abuse of children.  This also why the hiearchy is going after American women religious.  They want to distract from the larger, much more important issues of their failures.  What RCs should be doing is leaving gay people and removing bishops, cardinals and priests from power by withholding financial support from these corrupt “leaders”  and from thse criminals (and they are criminals and they are corrupt).

The USA is NOT a christian or RC theocracy and the teachings of the RCC and of “christianity” should not be imposed upon the broader secular society.

Where is the focus on ending war, hunger, poeverty??  Why just the focus on hatred, discrimination and bigotry???  Seems to the last gasp of a dying and corrupt institution.

So, Lisa, the entire history of every culture from the beginning of time have been haters and wrong because they did not have same-sex marriages?  The only “hatred” being incited is by those homosexual people who are imposing their values on the rest of society whose non acceptance of those values comes from natural law.  If you are not Christian or of a religious faith, then by what moral code do you claim “hatred, discrimination and bigotry” are being practiced?

Wow, the Catholic Church and the rest of Christianity is focused on inciting hatred towards gay people because Christians have a duty to uphold what God said? Should God also be accused?

The hierarchy of the RCC wants to foster hatred toward gay people as a
distrcation from thier criminal and moral failures re the widepsread,
ongoing sexual abuse of children? Wrong. The Catholic Church is doing no such thing.

Nobody should be reminded of what God said?

The Catholic Church does focus on ending war, hunger, poeverty. Only the ignorant would say otherwise.

If you think that Christianity is a dying and corrupt institution, then you must have no faith in God at all.

You ask anybody if what the bible says about homosexuality is wrong, you can bet that anybody who says it is will say that they do not believe in God. If they do believe in God, and still say that homosexuality is ok, then they are against God on this issue.

George Pierson,

Each book of the Bible refelcts a certain culture, time in history. The writers of the books of the Bible had no concept of smae- sex marriage or of homosexuality as it is now understood in the 21st century.  The prohibition in Lieviticus is about temple sex, idolatry and NOT about same-sex marriage.  What the writers of the books of the Bible say about sex in particular may be more about culture and time in histroy, rahter than about God. 

Christianity and the RCC are free to condemn whatever they want to condemn. But that that does not mean the RCC and RC and ‘Chrisatins” are free to indulge in hate speech and to incite hatred.  And it IS clear that the rhetoric on the subject coming from the RCC and from RCs in particular is all about hate, hatred, bigotry.

If the RC hierarchy ahd nay integrity, the focus of their teachings, sermons, bishops letters, etc would be abot their their own failing and about solving the problem.  insteady the hierarchy focuses on trying to den one group of American citizens their consitutional rights and they focuse on the vowed women religious who ARE faithfully living the message of their faith tradition.  The hiearchy wants to distract RCs from internal problems/failing of the RC hierarchy that have spilled over into the public sphere.

The RCC is very very silent on the topics of war, hunger, poverty.  If they put the smae amount of time, effort and money into ending these things as they do into inciting hatred against gay people, then we would see a lot less hunger, poverty and war.

Yes, the RCC is a dying institution.  That does not mean I “have no faith in God at all”.  God is waaay beyond the RCC and is not contained by the RCC and the RCC is NOT the sle source of God’s truth on earth.  There are Abrahamic traditions—each equal to the other, none above or better than the others.  God has separate ongoing, unbrokena nd vlaid covenants with Jews, Christians and Muslims.  One does not need to be a RC or “christian” to have faith in God.

Theose who support marriage equality support equality.  The Bible had a lot to say about slaves.  So those who oppose slavery are against God on that issue?  Those who eat shrimp are against God on that issue? Those who eat swiss cheese on their roast beef on ry are gainst God on that issue? Those who do not stone people who violate the Sabbath (Friday evening to Sat evening) are against God on that issue? People hwo do not stone rebellious osns are against God on that issue?  For people who want to read literally only some of the rules of Leviticus and other books of the Bible are cherry-picking and rationalizing their bigotry.  And that ahs nothing to do with God, but alot to do with ignorance and irrational fear.

If you hate, own your hate.  Don’t try to say its about God

I am tired of gays bashing my Catholic Church and her laws on Catholic Moral and Theological Teaching passed down through two thousand years…

I guess human beings at some point after creation discovered a perverse way called sodomy.

Sodomy is one of the sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance.  Sodomy was also what brought down the wrath of God:  ‘… And the Lord said: The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is multiplied, and their sin is become exceedingly grievous….

“…men of the city called Lot and asked where are the men that came in to thee at night? Bring them out hither that we may know them.  Lot said, Do not so, I beseech you, my brethren, do not commit this evil….”

Sodomy is evil.

The Catholic Church is not against gays or lesbians.  The Catholic Church is against the sin of sodomy.

Why do you come on to Catholic websites and ask the Catholic Church to validate your abnormal, sinful actions? You hate the Catholic Church.  Stay out. 

There are thousands of Christian denominations that approve and bless so called acts of sodomy disguised under the names of union and marriage.

Marriage can only be between a man and a woman - between members of the opposite sex.
 

Christ entrusted the salvation of souls ransomed by His blood to His Church; that they attain eternal life by living out His teaching proclaimed by His Church passed down through His apostles through the ages.  Mindful of this fact:

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WILL AND CAN NEVER CHANGE HER TEACHING ON FAITH AND MORALS ON:

Marriage between a man and a woman,
Common law copulation
Polygamy
Unnatural forms of contraception
Murdering children in the womb
Prohibition to marry divorced men or divorced women
Pedophilia,
Incest and rape
Sodomy
Bestiality
Married priests,
Women priests, etc…etc…etc…

You may argue that many Catholics including priests, nuns, bishops and even cardinals ignore these teachings and do some or all of these things.  It is their grave sin committed freely at the peril of their immortal souls.  It is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Charity is Truth
Love is Truth
Truth is Absolute.  It does not change with the times.

Edwin, the Catholic Church does not tell anyone what positions to take with their spouse in marriage unless you are withdrawing before completion. We say that is the sin of “attempted” (because it doesn’t work) contraception. The sin of Onan in the Old Testament (withdrawal) was so offensive to God that Onan died IMMEDIATELY. The Catholic Church condemns contraception as it does homosexual relations because both activities preclude the natural fruit of the sex act, which is children. (That doesn’t mean that people who can’t conceive or who chose to space their children by occasional abstinence within marriage are sinning) Sex is about babies and bonding. That is natural law. The Catholic Church wants us to live a “natural” life not an unnatural life. Why? Because it will result in our happiness. By definition, homosexual relations do not bear fruit naturally in children. It is not in our nature to have sexual congress with people of the same sex, nor dogs, nor horses, nor corpses, nor with multiple people. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah saw the two (male looking) angels visiting Lot, and they clamored to have sex with them. Lot saw this as such an unnatural thing that he offered his virgin daughters instead. (Not a good thing either). Judge not lest ye be judged. Absolutely. And by judging actions as wrong, we are not judging nor condemning the person who commits these wrong actions. Hate the sin, love the sinner. All of us are sinners. And did you know that homosexuality is ranked up there in the Bible as bad a sin as gossip? There probably isn’t a single person reading this blog who hasn’t committed the sin of gossip. The difference is many of us repent of the sin of gossip. We don’t define ourselves as gossipers. We don’t hold Gossip Pride Parades.  I worked with many homosexuals when I worked at the San Francisco Examiner. Believe it or not. They were my friends. But their lives were desperately unhappy. I felt the deepest compassion for them. They used to complain about being sick and sitting in the hot tub to relieve their pain.  One time I was in the elevator in the San Francisco Examiner Building and a very young man dying of AIDS was holding a vile of ashes. I said, “Oh my, is that a human being?” And he said passionately, “Yes, this is my lover.”  My lover is my husband of 29 years. And my fruit is my son. That poor young man died in his 20s and his fruit was that vial of ashes. Jesus said you can judge the tree by its fruits. And the homosexual life is a great suffering, and in certain ways fruitless, a waste. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. On top of that the San Francisco Examiner itself ran a series of articles on the homosexual lifestyle in the late ‘80s. In there they quoted a homosexual man in his ‘40s, who recounted that he got into that lifestyle because he “fell in love” in high school, but then he said that was an illusion because it led to multiple sex partners and the most degrading of experiences. He concluded by saying his life was a waste because he could have been a good husband and father, and he would have been happy in that lifestyle, but unfortunately, he was seduced by that one experience in his youth. I had a similar experience in my ‘20s. I fell in love with a divorced man, but I knew that relationship would take me from my Jesus. So I went and prayed before the Blessed Sacrament, and asked Jesus to take these feelings for that man from me, and He did! The relationship never went forward because God protected me. I married my husband in the Catholic Church, and I was not separated from my Jesus in the Eucharist. Neither was my husband, and my son practices his Catholic faith. That is happiness!
Now you seem to cast doubt on the plain interpretation of the gospel, which has been guarded by Church founded by Jesus Christ for these past 2,000 years. You call Jesus a liar when you doubt His word and His church because Jesus promised to be with us until the end of time.  So if He let the Gospel get mangled, and let the Church, His Catholic Church, misinterpret it, then Jesus Christ is a liar!
I do not chose to believe that.
Also you seem to believe that Christians should restrict the message to their blogs and their churches. That is not the plain meaning of “Go preach the gospel to ALL NATIONS!” ALL NATIONS IS EVERYBODY IN EVERY SITUATION.  I preach the gospel in every relationship I enter every day. 24/7.  If I do not talk about the Church per se, I at least say “God bless you!” to every person I meet. And that is taking my faith to all nations, and I don’t exclude the wedding cake, and if a Jewish baker didn’t want to put a saint on my cake, I wouldn’t complain. I would respect his faith as that is loving my neighbor as myself. I would not want to be forced to put a message anywhere contrary to my faith.
God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Susan I am grateful for your erudite and logical reply and great information. Your comments were very respectful and not without great revelation of your personal experience and obvious study, as well as Christian compassion. Thankyou

I can no disagree with most of what you say for the comments are obviously based on truths and logic.

But I do have similar experiences that represent the opposite side of the coin of very happy, long partnerships. I went to Graduate school in the 80s at SF State, getting my masters in special education to teach the visually handicapped.

I then had most of my college professors as homosexuals, of course living there most of the stores etc including my three doctors were homosexuals.

I found many were not promiscuous and did not see a great deal of them that were not happy and contributed greatly to helping others probably doing more for humanity than the majority of the devote church people.

Also a lot of them were very active in the Church including the RC Church.

I would also like to address some of the other points if you would not mind and some more specifics. I also know about the Aids..after my 4 yrs spent working in Germany,

I came back and 45 of my gay friends and teachers and business people, including my three doctors were dead of aids so know this part too…thanks for your gracious reply and for your input to this subject.
I also taught 7th and 8th grade science at st Francis school, and at the home for girls there in SF..

.I met some great RC Nuns that I worked with. I also worked with the nuns of various sects in Spokane Ws ..where I did my undergraduate work as a counselor for ministers at Whitworth College. It was a Presbyterian College.

I had conferences that the old estate of Bing Crosby that he dedicated to the Catholic church and also worked with some all the major Churches Protestant and Catholic on Poverty programs there in Spokane.

We developed a coffee house to meet and tackle the community problems and serve the poor and homeless. It was a great ecumenical experience for all of us.

This is authorized but copyrighted Quote that explains what the Sins of Sodom was and not what many have projected that it meant looking at the ethnocentric linguistics of the time, vs how we view things in our current time and ethnics. A common problem when viewing Biblical information.

IMHO Unfortunately our prejudices are based on faulty information and how we continue to perpetuate it baffles me. It is no different than the Galileo , considered a heretic for his belief that the earth was the center of the universe in his time.

Now we know different and have left him off the hook…seems we should do that with a few more misinformation s.

“The Sin of Sodom Was NOT Homosexuality!

by Mary Pearson
Nov 21, 2005

This is a shortened version suitable for publication.
If you wish to read the longer, original “letter to the editor”, please Click Here.

For years people have accepted without question, that the sin of Sodom was homosexuality. A more careful examination of the story itself, combined with other passages in both Old and New Testaments, will indicate this not to be so.

The Genesis 18, 19 story tells of two angels who came to Lot’s house to rescue his family from the impending destruction of the city “because of its great wickedness”.

The LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me.”  (Gen 18:20,21)

Notice that the exact form of wickedness is not mentioned. The story continues:

Before they (the two angels) had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—to the last man—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can know them.”  (Gen 19:4,5)

We know that throughout history gays have represented only about 10% of the population. If “ALL the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—to the last man” took part in this attempted rape, then 90% of them were heterosexuals!

Some translations interpret “know” them as to “have sex” with them, but the original Hebrew word “know” is used 943 times in the Bible and only ten times to mean “have sex”, and then it is always heterosexual sex. However, let’s assume that it does mean to have sex with them, based on Lot’s offer of his daughters, as follows.

Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”  (Gen 19:6-8)

If these men were gay, this substitution would hardly have been tempting, but the concept of a “gay orientation” was only recognized by society about a hundred years ago, so Lot would have presumed that all the men were straight.

Lot’s offer of his virgin daughters shows the total absence of the value of women in this culture. The men, on the other hand, were guests, and hospitality was a vital part of the culture in these days of no refrigeration, restaurants or hotels to accommodate travelers. It was not just a matter of good manners. A traveler could die without the hospitality of strangers, and so it was a matter of honour that Lot protect his guests.

Lot was an outsider in Sodom. He had moved there but was never accepted. His guests were also outsiders, and the Sodomites (inhabitants of Sodom) didn’t like outsiders. These men were not looking for a love affair. If indeed they wanted to have sex with the angels, it was rape that was at issue, not love. Domination was commonly shown by rape at that time, because to make a man take the part of a woman was the worst possible form of humiliation. Conquering armies raped all captives for this reason.

The case against gays is based on the attempted rape of the angels, but does it stand up to scrutiny? There are several things to consider:

Recall please that God mentions how grievous the sin of Sodom was BEFORE the attempted rape of the angels, so this is NOT the reason that God decided to destroy the city.

In addition to the Genesis story, there are 27 other references in the Bible to Sodom, and not one of them mentions homosexuality or rape! The overwhelming themes are idolatry, immorality and inhospitality. To be specific, they are referred to as: rebellion, corruption, injustice, murder, greed, theft, covetousness, arrogance, gluttony, haughtiness, lawlessness, blaspheming, mistreating the poor, arrogance, adultery, lying by priests and prophets, oppression, pride, false prophets, cruelty and failure to care for the young, poor and needy, living after ungodliness, gross immorality, insulting and mocking the people of the Lord, etc.

This attempted rape of the angels at Sodom was about violence and domination, committed mainly by heterosexuals. To compare it with a loving relationship between two people is akin to saying that rape is like marriage, simply because they both involve a sexual act. There is NO similarity!

Sodom was a detestable city, full of gross indecency, immorality and inhospitality, but the attempted rape of the angels, on which prejudice against gays is based, was NOT the reason for the destruction of the city.

Some would say that the “immorality” mentioned is homosexuality, but I challenge anyone to substantiate that accusation. There is just no foundation for it. Certainly there are immoral gays, just as there are immoral straights, but homosexuality, of and by itself, carries no implication of morality or immorality, any more than does heterosexuality.

A nearly identical story is found in Judges 19. However in this case, the men DO rape the concubine who is offered in exchange for the guests. The men abused her all night and the woman died as a result, but I have never seen this passage used against heterosexuals, although the outcome was much more dire.

Jesus mentions Sodom only twice, once when he has been accused of being a glutton and a drunkard and then when he tells his disciples to go out in pairs to every city where He intended to visit, and He says:

But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.’ I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.  (Luke 10:10-12)

Does it appear that Christ is talking about homosexuality with His reference to Sodom? No! He’s referring to the inhospitality of towns that do not welcome them. The hospitality that would be so vital to their survival corresponds exactly to the original story of Sodom in which hospitality was the issue with Lot and the angels.

Surely, if Jesus uses the story of Sodom to illustrate His message of inhospitality, then does it not follow that Sodom’s sin had more to do with inhospitality than with homosexuality?

Our sexuality is a God-given gift. If God created us gay, it follows naturally that He loves us exactly the way He made us.

There are six “clobber verses” in the Bible which are used against gays. Just as the sin of Sodom has been misrepresented, so have the other verses. Please visit the Education pages for more information.”
Quoted from the site for Christian Gays…that are not trying to make homosexuality the New Normal, but to acknowledge that it is part of the diversity of our biological diversity and common throughout the entire animal and plant kingdoms so is not uniquely a human abnormality in itself. Also a concept from the book ( Biological Exuberance)
Also the Science of Psychiatry does not classify homosexuality itself as an abnormality but one of the diverse states of our human sexuality that have always existed in humanity.

The latest charade is that lesbians and homosexual have started interpreting the bible.

On this Catholic website, I affirm that we are not Protestants.  We Catholics do not interpret the Bible.  Holy Mother Church is commissioned by Christ to interpret Holy Scripture.

St. Paul to the Romans speaks clearly about homosexuality, feminism and other resulting sins and disorders, the consequence of original sin.

21] Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. [23] And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things. [24] Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[26] For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. [27] And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. [28] And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient; [29] Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers, [30] Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

[26] God delivered them up: Not by being author of their sins, but by withdrawing his grace, and so permitting them, in punishment of their pride, to fall into those shameful sins.

[31] Foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. [32] Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.

If you are interested in understanding how Christian Gays can feel comfortable in Christianity in view of the passages you present here against homosexuality you may want to read their position. It is explained by a theologian and scholar on the subject in the following link. Hope   this helps give some understanding as to viewing alternative viewpoints based not on opinion alone but scholar and study and research:

I won’t bore you here by cutting and pasting…hope it helps…
https://christiangays.com/articles/revkellie.pdf

CelinedeSilva,

Wow!  What a nasty comment about gay people.  This just reinforces the fact that the RCC is inciting hatred toward gay people. The RCC is free to condemn whatever it wants to condemn—but it is not free to try to impose its bigotry upon all Americans and upon broader American society.

Scripture does NOT belong soley to the clergy of the RCC. There is no “commission” by God or anyone else for the RCC to be the sole interpreter of scripture. It belongs to everyone and everyone is free (yes, even gay people—who are made in the image of God as is every human person) to read, to interpret, to question, to study scripture.  God does NOT seek an abdication of our minds to any clergy.  God gave us intelligence to use, not to abdicate to other imperfect human beings.

When Jacob wrestled the angel, God changed Jacob’s name to Israel (God-wrestler). In reading scripture, God so often reaches out to us, seeks to engage us in relationship.  And relationship is NOT surrender.  Relationship is two-ways.  God loves us , we love God.

Well Holy Mother Church is your authority and if you know what that is, then you contradict yourself IMO>

(Holy Mother Church) is nothing more than people (Clergy) that feel inspired and have sincere desire and mission to form doctrine that is set up to lead the Church in it’s interpretation of what is left of writings they Canonize to be instruction to guide their members. So to say there is no interpretation is to bear false witness as far as I can see…if you have further clarification I would love to understand better.

Also the gender words utilized to identify a group of Male Clergy with a feminine word seems a bit contradictory to the focus against femininity and masculinity in individual relationships and how women are not allowed to be included in the hierarchy or the Church?

The Same with Both Males and Females wearing of the wedding ring signifying their marriage to the Church? The whole thing seems to represent that the Church preaches against the same vocabulary of gender that they practice?
I do not see this in the Jewish faith that gave birth to the Roman Catholic movement, and Christ Himself.?
Please clarify so I can understand…

Don’t you mean to say that God is inciting hatred toward gay people? After all, the Church is upholding what God says. Why not say, “God is free to condemn whatever he wants to condemn—but it is not free to try to impose his bigotry upon all humans”?

Where does it say that you can personally interpret the bible outside of what God says?

No Reformation or Post Reformation group has ever dared to answer that.

There is a world of difference between handing down, and upholding what the Apostles handed down, and deciding upon your own authority to change anything.

There’s your understanding.

I hear the commenter above bring up the gender terms again effeminite etc…and gender terminology?
Yet seems to me the confusion of gender is one of most obvious, in our face dichotomy of men or women not wearing the clothing of opposite gender, yet the males wear lace and dresses calling them sacred robes and yes they have changed, not requiring many of the nuns and clergy to wear other than normal clothing and not restricted to the religious garb.

Most of the Protestant and even other Orthodox branches of the Roman Catholic Church judge their variations of Doctrine and rituals on the same words of the Bible but come up with different results of meaning from the same, as you call it (Mother Church)

Seems the real Mother Church is the Jewish faith if Mother stands for giving birth and nurturing of the membership. from My understanding. Where am I wrong here.

Now we all Protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim etc..all originated from the worship and writings of the Moses and what we call the Old Testament. So though we all consider our way the only way and our interpretation and translations The God inspired view, there is no scientific way of defining a one and only way.

Thank God that entity is Omnipotent and Omnipresent to He can at least make use of the individuals in these groups to do His work in spite of the politics and power struggles and greed involved in the functioning and economics and tending of God’s Family….Mankind.

Let alone our mission to tend the garden He gave us our environment. Often neglected because we are all tied up in debates over who has the right way of doing anything.

haha Gender confusion and all…too bad we limit the power and diversity of God’s creation…seem it does take the formal Church forever to evolve while The Body of Christ Church…goes along and evolves ahead of the structured formal institution.

Well I am sure confused at the Chruch vocabulary and how they limit their view of God’s power and presence in spite of what seems obvious in the Biblical overview.????

Clarifications from anyone that knows welcome.

It is senseless to say that any Church doctrine is not composed of interpretations from writings such as the Bible. Don’t know how anyone can justify by saying Mother Church because it is all people maybe inspired by God..
The Orthodox Muslims criticize the Christians by their use of the term Trinity and Father, Son and Holy Spirit…terminology.

They are Monotheistic and consider this terminology to be polytheistic which is blasphemy in their view. So interpretation and what vocabulary we use is of utmost importance and not devoid of anyone’s Interpretation.

That is the main reason for the Reformation and various branch offs of all religions that broke away from the basic Jewish faith. Of course even Jesus had his conflicts over how the political and church leaders saw the words and interpreted them from their sacred writings.

Can anyone legitimately disagree on this fact?

Lisa Kaiser on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2013 12:10 PM (EDT):
“CelinedeSilva, Wow! What a nasty comment about gay people”

Lisa Kaiser, it is not my comment.  I am just quoting God’s word that St. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit preached to the Romans.

I am glad you recognized gay people in this scripture passage. 
However, the Catholic Church is not against gay people.
 
The Catholic Church is against the sin of sodomy which is a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance.

The grave sin of Sodomy, the so called act – is what gay people want the Catholic Church to sanctify.  This is impossible.  Virtue and sin are incompatible.

As I said earlier, there are some Christian denominations that under the name of union, marriage bless and accept sodomy.  So you are free to go to these places.

I would never go on to a protestant, atheists, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto or any other religious or gay website to post any comment.  I believe in live and let live.

It is you and those like you who are trying to impose your warped new beliefs, accepted sins and disordered lifestyles on Catholics and my Catholic Church, not the other way around.

Why are you on a Catholic website?

Edwin Morel on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2013 12:12 PM (EDT): “Well Holy Mother Church is your authority and if you know what that is, then you contradict yourself IMO> (Holy Mother Church) is nothing more than people (Clergy)”

Edwin Morel you are wrong.

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Our Holy Mother the Church is the Spotless Bride, the Mystical Body of Christ, comprised of saints and sinners.

Our Holy Mother the Church is also divided into Church Militant, the Church on earth

The Church suffering – Souls in purgatory

The Triumphant – Saints in heaven – Everyone in heaven is a Catholic.

ALL Catholics are Christians

NOT ALL Christians are Catholic.

Lisa Kaiser on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2013 12:10 PM (EDT): “CelinedeSilva,….Scripture does NOT belong soley to the clergy of the RCC. There is no “commission” by God or anyone else for the RCC to be the sole interpreter of scripture.”

“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

AND WHOSOEVER SHALL NOT RECEIVE YOU, NOR HEAR YOUR WORDS: GOING FORTH OUT OF THAT HOUSE OR CITY SHAKE OFF THE DUST FROM YOUR FEET.”

“Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves”

As for the origins of the Bible – The Catholic Church gave the world the Bible.

The original writings from the Apostles themselves (the autographs) no longer exist.
This is due partly to the perishable material (papyrus) used by the writers, and partly to the fact that the Roman emperors decreed the destruction of the sacred books of the Christians (Edict of Diocletian, A.D. 303).

Before translating the Bible into Latin, St. Jerome had already translated into more common languages enough books to fill a library
In the year 383, he revised the Latin New Testament text in accordance with some Greek manuscripts.

Between the years 390 and 406 he translated the Old Testament directly from the Hebrew, and this completed work is known today as the “Old Latin Vulgate”.

The work had been requested by Pope Damasus, and Copies of St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate appeared uncorrupted as late as the 11th century, with some revisions by St. Peter Damian and Lanfranc

Pope Benedict XV wrote about St. Jerome’s translation in his 1920 encyclical, Spiritus Paraclitus, http://www.cathtruth.com/catholicbible/earlyhis.htm
…“he corrected the Latin version of the Old Testament by the Greek;
he translated afresh nearly all the books of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Latin;
. . . he was constantly refuting men who assailed Catholic doctrine and unity.”

The first person known with certainty to apply the term canon to the Sacred Scriptures was St. Athanasius, about 350A.D (A Companion to Scripture Studies. Steinmueller.)

The Council of Carthage (397) was the first Council to publish a list of all the inspired books of the Bible.

The Council of Florence repeated the canon of the Bible, and it was restated at the Council of Trent. (No action of the Church causes a book to be inspired.

The Church exercises its infallible judgment to certify post factum that a particular book was inspired when it was written.

The fact that God is its Author makes a book to be inspired.

The Holy Spirit prevents the Church from erring in judging which books are inspired and included in the Bible.

From 1578 to 1593 the English College of Douay was temporarily housed at Rheims.
It was during this period that the Vulgate was translated into the new language called English.

In 1582, Queen Elizabeth ordered searchers to confiscate every copy of the New Testament newly translated into English by the College of Rheims.
Priests were imprisoned for having it, and the sentence of “torture by rack” was given to those who circulated it.

The publication of the Old Testament was delayed until the Douay College had returned to England.

In 1609, the College of Douay published the Old Testament English translation
Bishop Richard Challoner (1691-1781), who was previously the vice-president of the Douay College, began in 1749 the first of several revisions of the Bible from the “Old English” style into the newer English then in use.

It is his work that, for the first time provided English-speaking Catholics with a portable, inexpensive and readable version of the Bible

In 1790, the first Catholic Bible was printed in the United States, (a lot of printing for America had been done in Belgium) under the encouragement of its’ first bishop, John Carroll of Baltimore.

It was based on Challoner’s second edition of the Bible printed in 1764.
In 1805, another version was published in the U.S., based on the Dublin “fifth edition” of Challoner, having been slightly revised under Archbishop John Troy of Dublin

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GAVE THE WORLD THE BIBLE

http://WWW.DRBO.ORG/CHAPTER/47015.HTM

CelinedeSilva,

This website is open to you to read and to post comments.  You quote no scripture that forbids individual interpretation of the Bible. There is NO prohibition in the Bible that forbids individual interpreation of the Bible.  There is NO “commission” in scripture giving the Bible over to the sole authority of the RCC.  God allows us to wrestle with God, to live in realtionship with God, to question, to study, to think freely.  The RCC interprets the Bible to its own advantage. 

You can say whatever you want and quote whtever you want re the RCC and the Bible—that works for the benefit of the RCC.  It does not mean it is true, or that it comes from God, or that everyone has to accept it.  there are 3 Abrahamic traditions.  God has ongoing, unbroken and valid covenants with Jews, Christians and Muslims.  Each Abrahamic tradition is equal to the others, none is better than or triumphant over the others.

The Torah, the writings of the prophets, the Psalms, , all of the Hebrew scripture were available in writing long, long, long before the existence of the RCC and long, long, long before the life of Jesus.  So no, the Catholic Church did NOT give the world the Bible.  The RCC gave the world the NT—that’s it. 

CelinedeSilva,

Whoops—what I meant to say here is that this website and comment section is open to all to read to post comments.  Being RC is not a requirement of readership or for posting comments.

I comment here as I have long experience with the RCC and 16 yrs of RC education, including a BA in RC theology from an RC college.  And while God has called me to another path, I read a number of RC publications and remain interested in what the RCC is doing in the wold (in postive and in negative ways).

I don’t know if the person posting was referring to me about being on a Roman Catholic blog, but I am on here as an American Catholic=Universal Christian myself.

I am here to express the concept of freedom of religion and the American way that gave us that freedom.

So I know you feel your teachings are infallible and you use words like Holy Mother Church
The Bride
The Bride Groom
The Holy Trinity
I am not here to defend your vocabulary nor deny any of your teachings but clarify why others may not want you to go unto their world and preach what they feel is, though a very parallel view of religion they disagree with you and feel as convinced they are right as you feel your right. They have the same freedom to believe here in America as you do.

Lets talk about you as Roman Catholics,

The Romans were not always Catholics but like America, tolerated the Jews. They also may even have had the Jews, as basically, slaves working for them and basically just tolerated them.

But Christ was a Jew. Now the Jews followed Moses and the 613 commandments. One was not to eat any blood from any animal. That also was followed by the Muslims who also, as with the Jews they shared a genetic blood line.

Of course the Christians also, at least some of them may have been Jews like the writers of the Bible and the Apostles, who were mostly fisherman and a tax collector and maybe a doctor ..

Ok You the infallible Roman Catholics believe you are the true church and start from scratch but the majority of Roman Catholics do not share the blood line and genetics that the major part of the Jews and Muslims share?

They know their faith through their blood lines and for one thing they still follow the laws that Jesus was commanded to follow. So they are pretty much closer to what God said prior to Jesus as well as during the Life of Jesus.

Moses said in the commandments not to partake of any animal blood so we as Christians do…weather only spiritual blood and body as most protestants of transubstantiation as also some protestants and Roman Catholics.

Well you just go unto all the world and preach your doctrine ....but don’t expect to be tolerated by other faiths especially the root faiths of Christianity for practicing what God told them was wrong. I am not saying you are wrong just letting you know you are at war for blasphemy from the creators and lineage of the faith you proclaim, and you many not even have blood in you that represents the faith you are preaching but are adopted into that family from the Gentile line.

In America we have a right to be content in our own faiths and interpretations and not to be insulted by attempting to be forced to believe your way.

This also includes the homosexual Christians who disagree with your interpretation of the pass sages you claim as against homosexuality just as the Jews and Muslims have the right not to believe that Christ was from God by offering his body and blood to be consumed like cannibals,in their eyes and against the mosaic laws they are guided by.

Yet understand we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and need to respect each other and not induldge in sybling rivalry and keep the 10 commandments which says love others and yourself ...so respect their views as you want them to respect yours. You preach by your life not your mouth.
Many as we have seen in the news do a lot of preaching and yet are always in the news for not following the words they preach. So I think that if you are in the eyes of Christ He might be more interested in tollerance than we express by supporting this baker.

Christ did say judge not lest ye be judged, and he who is guiltless cast the first stone…so you judge the lesbiens for wanting two same gender dolls on their cake and you may be judged for bad thoughts and all the actions in your life that were even worse than the two dolls on the cake.

Of course this is only my opinion ...but I am happy to be an American and to be able to express it and hopefully the Roman Catholics in America do the same.
I attended the Masses on a regular basis as well as taught in their schools and worked with their nuns and lived in their missions in Calif..so I am in no way anti Roman Catholic..in fact I use a lot of their literature and respect their scholarship and history.

I don’t know if the person posting was referring to me about being on a Roman Catholic blog, but I am on here as an American Catholic=Universal Christian myself.

I am here to express the concept of freedom of religion and the American way that gave us that freedom.

So I know you feel your teachings are infallible and you use words like Holy Mother Church
The Bride
The Bride Groom
The Holy Trinity
I am not here to defend your vocabulary nor deny any of your teachings but clarify why others may not want you to go unto their world and preach what they feel is, though a very parallel view of religion they disagree with you and feel as convinced they are right as you feel your right. They have the same freedom to believe here in America as you do.

Lets talk about you as Roman Catholics,

The Romans were not always Catholics but like America, tolerated the Jews. They also may even have had the Jews, as basically, slaves working for them and basically just tolerated them.

But Christ was a Jew. Now the Jews followed Moses and the 613 commandments. One was not to eat any blood from any animal. That also was followed by the Muslims who also, as with the Jews they shared a genetic blood line.

Of course the Christians also, at least some of them may have been Jews like the writers of the Bible and the Apostles, who were mostly fisherman and a tax collector and maybe a doctor ..

Ok You the infallible Roman Catholics believe you are the true church and start from scratch but the majority of Roman Catholics do not share the blood line and genetics that the major part of the Jews and Muslims share?

They know their faith through their blood lines and for one thing they still follow the laws that Jesus was commanded to follow. So they are pretty much closer to what God said prior to Jesus as well as during the Life of Jesus.

Moses said in the commandments not to partake of any animal blood so we as Christians do…weather only spiritual blood and body as most protestants of transubstantiation as also some protestants and Roman Catholics.

Well you just go unto all the world and preach your doctrine ....but don’t expect to be tolerated by other faiths especially the root faiths of Christianity for practicing what God told them was wrong. I am not saying you are wrong just letting you know you are at war for blasphemy from the creators and lineage of the faith you proclaim, and you many not even have blood in you that represents the faith you are preaching but are adopted into that family from the Gentile line.

In America we have a right to be content in our own faiths and interpretations and not to be insulted by attempting to be forced to believe your way.

This also includes the homosexual Christians who disagree with your interpretation of the pass sages you claim as against homosexuality just as the Jews and Muslims have the right not to believe that Christ was from God by offering his body and blood to be consumed like cannibals,in their eyes and against the mosaic laws they are guided by.

Yet understand we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and need to respect each other and not induldge in sybling rivalry and keep the 10 commandments which says love others and yourself ...so respect their views as you want them to respect yours. You preach by your life not your mouth.
Many as we have seen in the news do a lot of preaching and yet are always in the news for not following the words they preach. So I think that if you are in the eyes of Christ He might be more interested in tollerance than we express by supporting this baker.

Christ did say judge not lest ye be judged, and he who is guiltless cast the first stone…so you judge the lesbiens for wanting two same gender dolls on their cake and you may be judged for bad thoughts and all the actions in your life that were even worse than the two dolls on the cake.

Of course this is only my opinion ...but I am happy to be an American and to be able to express it and hopefully the Roman Catholics in America do the same.

I attended the Masses on a regular basis as well as taught in their schools and worked with their nuns and lived in their missions in Calif..so I am in no way anti Roman Catholic..in fact I use a lot of their literature and respect their scholarship and history.

1] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you; going forth from thence, shake off the dust from your feet for a testimony to them.

Edwin, I thank you for your kind remarks on my post, but I fear your gay friends were a little disingenuous if they told you they have relations only with their partner. There are countless studies on homosexual men and the number of partners they have in a year. I remember one statistic of 750 sexual encounters in one year (maybe some recurrent partners). My cousin Eric roomed with a gay man, and I asked him if that statistic was true and he thought it was a little conservative (low). I knew the man in question, and I—on the surface—would have no idea of his many encounters with men based on my friendship with him. Studies have shown lesbian couples are very violent. I met and befriended a lesbian couple, and I never saw anything of the violence except I would come to visit them, and the fish tank would be broken on the front lawn or some such other thing. It’s very hard to judge what is going on in someone’s life by having a friendship.
So all the men of the town came and asked to “know” the angels who appeared to be young men. That is a pretty clear case of homosexuality. “Know” in the Old Testament means sex. It doesn’t mean only heterosexual sex. That’s a red herring. It couldn’t mean anything else, like “Hi, I just want to meet you.” or something. If it meant, “Hi I’d just like to meet you,” Lot would not have run out in shock and offered his virgin daughters. Now I don’t approve of his actions regarding women either and neither does God! But it shows the clear meaning of what the men of that town intended—homosexual acts. In many cases in Christ’s life, we understand what He meant based on the reaction of his listeners. I myself never thought Jesus proclaimed Himself to be God. He never said, “I am God.” But he was crucified by the Jews for blasphemy because he made Himself to be God. So the reaction of the Jews shows that indeed in some way Christ proclaimed Himself the Messiah God. So Lot’s reaction is clear. He at least believes that the men of the town intend to sodomize his angel visitors, and in a crude way he is trying to stop that from happening.  Sodom and Gomorra is at the bottom of the DEAD SEA, buried under tons of salt.  It’s actually a popular hand lotion and cosmetic to use “DEAD SEA” salt to make your skin beautiful. I think God has clearly stated his opinion of that dead city and its practices by burying it under tons of salt. But God always brings good out of evil, and so we have the hand lotion. God has a sense of humor.
I feel that people with same sex attraction are very much welcome in the Catholic Church, but I hope they receive the Good News as it’s intended and not watered down by the evil one. Satan will twist Scripture and make you think it means something it doesn’t. Unless you place yourself in obedience to God’s Church you are basically unable to know truth. I know that sounds harsh and I am very sorry. But the point is the Catholic Church is a place for sinners. We are all sinners, but we must heed St. John the Baptist, and “REPENT!” and then be saved. We ask God to forgive our sins. The great news is that He is a Father who is ready and willing to forgive our every fault if we but turn to Him. The MERCY of God is His greatest attribute. But God is unable to help us if we become like the Pharisee who thanked God because he was not like that poor Samaritan over there in the corner. The Pharisee was very happy himself, and thought he was doing everything right. The poor Samaritan kept beating his breast and asking God for mercy for his sins. Jesus said the Samaritan went home justified, but the Pharisee did not. Pharisees were people who appeared to be holy to the larger population. We can’t judge by appearances. Gay people who think they can be Christian and still live a homosexual lifestyle without repentance are like frogs in a cold pot of water. They don’t jump out as the water is heated because they don’t notice the change. Finally, they are boiled to death. But a person with same sex attraction who repents of any homosexual acts he may have committed and tries to live a chaste life—even if they fall again—these people are approved by God. Anyone who struggles against any sin that seems impossible to overcome are dearly beloved of God and welcomed by Him. (Although he loves the unrepentant sinner too, for while I was still in my sins, He died for me on the cross) The key is just to pick yourself up, repent and try to overcome the sin. God will see your struggles and He will help you. St. Theresa of Lisieux told this story: A Father seeing his infant child at the bottom of the stairs struggling to climb the first step will come down and pick the child up and take him to the top of the stairs. But if the child is not struggling to climb that first step then the Father will walk away and return later. It is impossible for any of us to overcome one sin without God’s help just as it is impossible for an infant to climb one step without his father’s help.  Avail yourself of the sacrament of Confession frequently. But regardless, all sinners, gay or straight, are welcome in God’s kingdom, and His Church, the Roman Catholic Church. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Well my specific posts on the subject were rejected by the monitor, so maybe I can say it in another way.

The Bible says that we are even to love our enemy to show God our dedication. It says even the Pagan can love those that agree and show love for them, but I say to you to love them too…thus the love your neighbor as thyself..so in your mind take their place and feel what they feel in empathy and understanding.

So in this light, especially in America with freedom of religion, think of the Jewish law against eating any blood, yet we have the transubstantiation and even just the basic symbolic Eucharist…which is Blasphemy in their eyes and they are to live with us when to them we dishonor the God we all worship. 

Think of the inability for the Muslims to accept the fact that the trinity is in our eyes a monotheistic God, and they can not understand that and to them it is blasphemy to the God we all worship.

In the light of that severe insult to co exist with our sybling faiths from which we originated, seems we could endure two dolls of the same gender on a stupid wedding cake to be the: Blessed are the peacemakers…the Bible talks about. IMO

Many comments on this Catholic blog are so ignorant and malicious.

Talk not much with a fool, and go not with him that hath no sense. Keep thyself from him, that thou mayst not have trouble, and thou shalt not be defiled with his sin.

Turn away from him, and thou shalt find rest, and shalt not be wearied out with his folly. [17] What is heavier than lead? and what other name hath he but fool? [18] Sand and salt, and a mass of iron is easier to bear, than a man without sense, that is both foolish and wicked. Ecclesiasticus 22:14, 18

Ok, I am going to respond directly to Posted by Edwin Morel on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2013 10:37 PM (EST) on this one.

What God revealed, Jesus taught, what the Apostles handed down, and what the Church continues to teach are infallible. Personal opinions are not.

The government may say that people are free to believe as they please.

However, Jesus never said that we could select to believe what we want. 

The individual Catholic is not infallible.

The Charism of infallibility is for the Pope alone, and can only be used under certain circumstances.

Bloodlines and genetics have nothing to do with being Catholic.

Jesus instituted a New Covenant.

He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets.

That is why Christians are not bound to the Mosaic Law.

The following sentence you posted makes no sense. “Moses said in the commandments not to partake of any animal blood so we as Christians do…weather only spiritual blood and body as most Protestants of transubstantiation as also some protestants and Roman Catholics.”

It looks like you are more interested in genetic lines than what God said.

We are at war for blasphemy?

To which blasphemy are you referring?

Our way or God’s way? Christians have an obligation to uphold what God revealed.

Jesus didn’t institute cannibalism.

He instituted the Eucharist.

The Church teaches what the Apostles handed down about that.

It was not until the Reformation that people questioned it.

I would also point out that the Jews, and not the Apostles, who left Jesus after he told them that they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

They knew exactly what he was saying, and they walked away.

Jesus didn’t respect the views and opinions of the religious leaders of his day.

He taught the truth.

Are you stating for the record that homosexual acts are not wrong?

Ask any Jew if they believe that homosexual acts are ok with God. 

You talk about respect, but are far from it.

Jesus also said to sin no more. We have a duty to tell someone that what they are doing is wrong.

You would not be able to teach in our schools if you were against anything the Church teaches.

Thank you George Pierson

George Pierson,

First, Jews are not a monolithic group. There is no central teaching authority in Jusaism. Yes, Orthodox Jews oppose marriage equality.  But the Reform movement (and perhpas the Conservative movement_ I would have to check) supports marriage equality.  So no you cannot just ask “any Jew” if “homosexual acts are ok with God”.  Old saying—5 Jews, 10 opinions!

And perhaps you missed Edwin Morel’s point.  I understand his point to be this:  The RCC thinks it is right about everything it teaches. Other faith traidtions don’t see it that way.  They would say the RCC is wrong about a lot of things.  The RCC would say that other faith traditions are wrong about a lot of things.  So its stalemate. The good news is that here in America, no one faith tradition, including the RCC, has the right to impose its teachings upon the rest of American society.

celinedesilva,

Yes many comments on this comment thread are ignorant and malicious.  You are right.  “But judge not lest ye be judged”

George Pierson,

If Jesus “instituted a new covenant”, it applies only to those who call themselves “christians”.  God has separate, ongoing, unbroken and valid covenants with Jews, with Christains, and with Muslims.

Jews and Muslims are chosen peoples of God. That has not changed over the 4,500 yrs of Judaism or the approx 1,400 yrs of Islam. Christians may also be a chosen people of God, but if so, they are NOT the ONLY chosen people of God. Nothing about the man Jesus changed or will ever change God’s covenants with Jews and with Muslims.  You may not like it, you may not believe it, but your belief does not change anything.  Your RCC has made some pretty good strides in giving up its false triumphalism over other faith tradition. Hoepfully, that message has found its way to the RC faithful as well.

Mr Pierson, the comments I made, I thought I made clear earlier, but guess I need to do it each positing, are to reflect why others disagree with the teachings of the RC Church, and my focus is to attempt to stop the massive conflicts here in America between various viewpoints and religions, before we loose out with our freedom of religion by allowing us to worship side by side in mutual respect.

I do have not posted any of my personal beliefs other than my American ones and my love of the fact I am free to believe as I feel God has granted me His food for thought. My American freedom is what I served my country for so you can believe what you want as well as Me.

I have been in countries where you do not have that freedom when those people do come here they respect people with other views more because they know the meaning of freedom.
Also the freedom not to believe as long as they don;t dictate to me their views.

The transubstantiation may have been understood by the Apostles as well as you but my point was it sounds really silly to the Orthodox Jew or the Muslim who enjoy worship here in America with all of us.

They don’t do that in Muslim countries they kill Christians ..Our Christian Heritage, because of the Churches lack of respect for other views are taking our freedom away if you are not aware of it.

The secular world does not want to be told what to believe nor do you want their view preached to you. It is simple do not take their freedom away from them and they will not take yours away from you. Simple logic as I see it.

Preach to those who God sends or go to those starving for a faith.. The communists forced their views on the population seems even Jesus did not.

Thankyou for your reply, and know it was given in concern for truth and caring. But I of course knew what you were saying. You may not have understood it was not my belief I was presenting.
I hope this clarifies a bit.
Oh Yes there are some Christians, theologeons, etc..that do not read the passages you attribute to homosexuals as what you say. I posted the link to long discussions of why from extensive research that I know you will probably not agree on because of the RC dogma. But at least you may know why they believe that way.

Well we all have a perfect wright as well as responsibility to preach to our Church family as well as to those outside the church that ask for our advice. But you get a fundamentalist Roman Catholic and a Fundamentalist Muslim or even add a Orthodox Jew and a Greek Orthodox, and try to claim your truths to be the only God’s truth, even if you all believe in the God of Abraham, and you may not have time to go to work or tend your own flock you will make little progress in your attempt to convince any of them your view is the only one. The same with you saying God is telling the Atheist anything haha…and you are talking to the wall. Allowing them all to believe is our Freedom and only when they all agree to debate should the activity take place. That is how we keep our freedom. Otherwise people get fed up with others telling us how and what to believe without our asking or even interest.
As A teacher I did not give my view only facts and history..I taught Biology and Art…basic stuff just the facts as they existed in my time.
Obviously looking back even most of those have changed as we have progressed significantly in our search for knowledge and developed vocabulary for things we never even dreamed of in my early years in science. We laughed at the science fiction, that is now fact and common knowledge.
Everyone does not have this prospective. We all, as I did as a youth thought we knew it all…that is what happens when we mature we learn and evolve and many of us do not throw the first stone at the prostitute if we are true to Christs example. IMO

The Catholic Church has the right to uphold what God revealed. However, the Gay agenda wants to impose immorality around the world without question. So, who is right? Is it God or the Gay Agenda?

God has separate, ongoing, unbroken and valid covenants with Jews, with Christians, and Muslims?

We know that God had many Covenants with the Jews.
We know that Jesus instituted a New Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31
[A New Covenant] The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
I think that the Jews would argue against the Islamics also being the chosen people of God along with them.

Jesus says that salvation comes from the Jews. I do not recall anything about the Islamics. I would also point out that covenant that God made with Abraham involved his son Isaac.

It seems that you are making America’s constitution and laws your religion.
Does God have no right to say what we are supposed to believe?
What God revealed is not voted on nor is it by popular opinion.

Given that you seem to have little to no regard to Jesus, but claim that the Jews and the Islamics are some how on equal footing, I wonder why you feel that you do not need to tell us exactly what religion, if any, you belong to.

It has been my observation that people who go on the offensive about the beliefs of others tend to be silent about what it is that they truly believe. It is as if they are embarrassed by their religion.

Lastly, I would suggest watching your spelling and grammar. It needs work.

What is a Fundamentalist Catholic? The Greek Orthodox Church believes the same doctrines that the Catholic Church does. There is very little between the two groups.
“Otherwise people get fed up with others telling us how and what to believe without our asking or even interest.” People will do that when Jesus returns. 

Jesus instituted the Eucharuist. The Jews rejected Jesus. So, it does not matter to us what they think of the Eucharist.
If you read the Old Testament, the faithful Jews would rather die than even simulate eating pork to save their own lives, yet, you are saying that having two female dolls should not matter? It also seems like you are more interested in not offending the Jews and the Islamics and not care about offending Christians.

Something to think about:
Many Homosexuals commit suicide every year for their confusion and guilt.
Strange because Jesus said if you have hate in your heart for your brother, it is as if you have murdered him. So the hate, weather from Christians or Secular the hate still kills our youth. It would be different if Science and Medicine classified homosexuality as a sickness and there was a cure for it.

They are trapped. Funny people do not seem to be aware of our gender diversity that is natural in all the animal kingdom.

There are no references that I know of in the Bible speaking to who hermaphrodites are to marry or what type of sex they are allowed to select as a help mate.

God did say it was not good for man to be alone, so he made woman as a help mate.

Strange the Clergy thinks it appropriate to deny that for their people in some people’s eyes.

If people follow the fact that 1 in 1200 births have some form of hermaphrodite development then why not accept that hormonal and brain development, formation that makes people that way in the first place? Even transgender is common in the Animal Kingdom.

Hey they have their place and if God made this distinction in the rest of the Animal kingdom why not in the Human Animal?

After all most preaching is done to the masses that are heterosexual they were not speaking to those who were not heterosexual if you think about it.
Though homosexuality was commonly practiced they were not aware that it was a biological as well as psychological state of humanity.

But none of this is important when related to a baker making a wedding cake with two lady dolls on top vs a male and a female doll on top. That is just general hospitality, and mutual respect for freedom of beliefs in an American culture where we do follow the golden rule as a nation.

We have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and businesses are there to serve the common community secular as well as religious. Hospitality is how Jesus lived.

You can not be very happy if your bullied and harassed like most gays are that cause so many to kill themselves.
Why add to that as a Christian unless they ask for help, and you are qualified to help them.

You don’t go to a butcher for a heart transplant or psychiatric evaluation.

So none of our discussion on weather homosexuality is ok or not is not the question here but who has the right to be what they are and who has the right to but into their business, and when to judge and what are the repercussions of that judgement? IMO
What was meant by Jesus saying he who is guiltless cast the first stone..remember the stoning was in public.
Just questions to think about ...
in case you were interested in the homosexual Christian view and why…
https://christiangays.com/articles/revkellie.pdf

Yes, Edwin, the calling to be a peacemaker is truly noble. I’m glad you feel that call, but understand what a peacemaker is and what he isn’t. A peacemaker seeing his brother about to drink poison does not tolerate that action. Christian Charity would require we make every effort to change the brother’s mind. Admittedly, when we are not there and the brother decides to drink the poison anyway, we see that we can’t do anything. We accept it. But when we stand before God at the Judgement, He will say “Good job. You tried.” God doesn’t ask us to be successful. He only asks us to serve. So that is what happens when the baker refuses to bake a cake with a same sex couple on it. He is trying to prevent his brother or sister from drinking poison, a charitable act. If his brother doesn’t agree, he is free to get the cake made at another bakery. There is nothing disruptive or unpeaceful about that. It undoubtedly disturbs the person who can’t get the cake, and why? Have you ever had an experience where you were doing something wrong, and someone pointed that out to you? You are upset! But if I were the one about to drink poison, I’d be happy for the encounter because I wouldn’t be dead afterwards. Because someone gets upset does not mean you have broken the peace. That’s the world’s peace you have identified. Not Christ’s peace.
St. Ignatius of Loyola developed a set of rules for discernment, so Catholics could be in the world and still remain at peace. One of the rules explains that as a soul is drawing closer to God the actions of the good spirit are soothing like a drop of water. The actions of the evil spirit are disturbing. The converse is true as well. If a person is drawing away from God, then the actions of the good spirit are disturbing like a finger nail scratching a chalk board. The actions of the evil spirt are soothing. So the baker’s choice not to make a same sex cake was the actions of the good spirit: “Warning, danger ahead if this course of action is continued!” But these actions seem evil to the soul drawing away from God. “Dead soul here. How dare you tell me what to do!” The baker didn’t tell the couple what to do. The baker merely said what he himself would do: not make the cake. A soul moving towards God would take the correction joyfully, repent and work towards changing his life. The soul moving away from God would become horribly disturbed and cry, “Discrimination.” And that soul would not understand what had taken place at all. The actions of the baker, which were really loving, would seem hateful to someone corrected in an evil course of action. I had a friend, whose parents planned their suicide when they got old and sick. They wanted their son and daughter to help them. The son said yes. The daughter, my friend, said, “No I can’t help you commit suicide.” She was shocked at their response. They treated her like a veritable Judas, a betrayer. They disinherited her and left all their affairs in the hands of her brother. She was terribly hurt. She could not understand how her own mother and father could reject her for such a reason.

But they were away from the Christian Church, and she was practicing her Catholic faith. They had no faith in God. They were moving away from Him and His Providence. Therefore their daughter’s actions seemed to be quite evil to them.

Catholics absolutely would not normally understand the older couple. They would think, “What an evil family! How cruel they were to their daughter.” But once one learns St. Ignatius’s rules, one can meet such a vicious misunderstanding with peace. Of course the parents loved their daughter. They truly thought their daughter did not love them because she wouldn’t help them die in a manner they regarded as merciful. Their ignorance of her charitable motivations was invincible.

I was privileged to lobby the United Nations for the pro-life cause on three occasions. One of my pro-life team mates was handing a pro-life lobbying document to one of the UN delegates. This is done by both sides. It is not against the rules. It is a normal action. But one of the pro-abortion feminists grabbed the document from the delegate and ripped it to shreds! This action was definitely not polite and thoroughly upset my teammate until I explained St Ignatius rules of discernment. The feminist did not act irrationally in her mind. She—possibly moving away from God because she publicly works to ensure the slaughter of innocents—she really believed she was attacked by the innocent action of handing a lobbying document to a delegate. It was a finger nail scratching on the chalk board experience for the pro-abortion lobbyist. The pro-life lobbyist had to be wrong! (in her mind). So from the world’s perspective on peace, my teammate was disturbing the peace by doing her job.  People against gay marriage and abortion should just shut up! That’s what the two half naked lesbians just told Pope Benedict. “Shut up!” You are disturbing the peace.  But I look at this and see no disruption in peace at all. I see God using the actions of his little pro-life lobbyist to call his daughter (the pro-abortion lobbyist) back to His Heart, His Way, His Kingdom. It is a kingdom of gentleness and love, but boy does it disturb Satan and his followers.
God bless you Edwin Morel. I will add you to my prayer list.
Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Well there seems to be a confusion in my posts and how a few of you are reading them. To Interpret a passage from the Bible is to attempt to translate the meaning of what was written, in the language it was written, with some knowledge of the meaning of those words at the time they were written, and knowing something about who, what, when and where it was written.
Everyone has to do that if they are attempting to know the truth they are reading. It make no difference if it is a Clergy, a gay or heterosexual, a man or a woman they all have those motives, and the limitations of these concepts. So yes the messages are INTERPRETED.

Some of you aparently do not understand linguistics. There are many meanings to words and also their context. This is especially true because words evolve through history to have alternative meanings even look at the word gay…and what it meant yrs ago vs now.

This is not something that only scholars know we all know that particularly if you have ever studied a foreign language.

Ancient Hebrew does not have any vowels but the meaning is influenced by how it is spoken and we also have words like that with multiple meanings but understand only in context.

Ancient Hebrew is even more difficult than modern Hebrew to interpret accurately. Some words were found to be used only in certain contexts while others with similar meanings are used in other contexts.

Because people say that the Pope has the gift of infallibility in interpretation of the Bible is your belief. You are welcome to that belief but there are many that will disagree with that and prayerfully in the name of Christ.

The truth may well be that the Pope does have the truth but may only have on part of the truth and not the whole truth because obviously others in the name of Christ come up with variations on this.

This is one great reason for Freedom of Religion here in the USA..and some here mention about the martyrs in the Bible, well we too have martyrs, our soldiers that died for the freedom you disrespect if you do not respect the rights of those here in the USA that have alternative or opposite views on dogma and religion.

As we all know wars have been fought over religions and we are still fighting the warring tribes of fanatical Muslims now. The fear of people like the fanatical religions forcing us to believe and verbalize as they do or be condemned or ridiculed or harassed or even killed, here in America is why the Anti religious seems to be getting stronger. Many are even taken out of our schools and universities and the studies of Science for fear they will distort truth that they find to fit the ancient misinterpreted doctrines they profess.

Strange because God is ultimate truth and to know
God is to know truth and truth was the focus of the Church and where education and research and written language originated from the beginning.

Strange politics, and dogma and economics, and power has had such a negative effect on our culture and history. It is obvious to most though from people I have talked to…

George Pierson,

There is no “gay agenda”. There are only human beings (made in the image of God) looking to be treated as human beings, as equals to other human beings.

George Pierson,

I am certainly under no obligation to tell you anyhting about myself.  I am certainly not embarassed by my faith tradition.  Your calim that I amy be embarassed about my faith traidtion is silly, inaccruate, and made without any knowledge of who I am.  In other words you are making claims that have no basis in fact.  You are not entitled to any information about me.. 

You state, “I think that the Jews would argue against the Islamics also being the chosen people of God along with them.”  Again you show that you do not know anything about Judaism.  In Genesis, God promises to make a great nation from the descendants of Ishmael, the son of Abraham and Hagar. Jews, generally (but probably not universally) see this as God’s covenent with Islam. Please re-rad Genesis and you will see this.

You also state that I “claim” Jews and Muslims are “on equal footing with Christians.  I do not make that claim.  Please read scripture—God makes this claim.  Jews and Muslims are most certainly equal in all respects to Christains.  Christians are NOT better than Jews or Muslims or members of any other faith tradition or atheists for that matter.  God love sall and freely give God’s love and grace to all.

George Pierson,

Jews did not “reject” Jesus.  ther was nothing about Jesus to “reject”.  Jesus was a a man, an excellent rabbi, an observant Jews whose message come right from the Torah. Jesus lived and died (and stayed dead).  Jesus was not messiah aor God.  The concept of messiah is a concept found in Hebrew scripture.  Jesus did not fit the definition and so was not the messiah or God.  Paul twisted the defintion so that he could cliam Jesus fit Paul’s fictional defintion.  Because Paul twisted the defintion of messiah, Gentiles who knew nothing of Judaism and gullible, uneducated Jews bought into Paul’s fiction.

(posted by George Pierson on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2013 6:16 PM (EST):

The Catholic Church has the right to uphold what God revealed. However, the Gay agenda wants to impose immorality around the world without question. So, who is right? Is it God or the Gay Agenda?)

Eddy:
Lets get equal here…Gay agenda and religious dogma agenda…same thing.
If it was God’s Agenda no one can argue that.
Because you call it God’s Agenda does not make it God’s Agenda.
Also I question you statement that homosexuals want to impose immorality without question.

They are attempting to show you that they are not immoral, but that it is immoral not to be what they are. They are not imposing anything on the world.

They are saying see the truth homosexuality is a legitimate state of gender. Established by science. The Churches classifying them with the same rules as heterosexuals is immoral.
To bear false witness is immoral..no matter if your a believer or not a believer. How much more Religious people should be dedicated to truth for truth is God, not dogma and tradition.

Because I am an American I have the right to believe you have God’s Agenda and we all have a right not to believe you have God’s Agenda.

eg: your truth..may be eating strawberries is nutritious and healthy for your body. My truth, i am allergic to strawberries. God’s truth is strawberries are both constructive and also destructive it is relative.
Don’t preach to me to eat strawberries if I know they can kill me.

If you love homosexuals, but hate their act, then you admit that homosexuality is a state of being. But don’t require them to live as heterosexuals to be accepted marry like heterosexuals and bring more homosexuals into the world. You are raising more of them because of your forcing them to ignore their sexuality and try to be what they are not.
Seems your focus with God’s Agenda would be to not bear false witness.

Seems Yes it is an abomination for a Heterosexual to act like a homosexual for it goes against his nature…same for a homosexual he or she should not attempt to be a heterosexual and deny his or her nature.
Simple…tho shalt not bear false witness.

What does God’s Agenda say about the millions of Hermaphrodites and should the baker make a hermaphrodite wedding cake?
Why does the Bible not have a gospel for all of the diverse Genders? Maybe because He gave us brains to make the distinction and respect what He made. Seems he did put it out there as examples in the Biological world for us to observe and understand and accept.

Seems when we are talking to the masses we address the majority and do not individually address each race we are talking to or each individual with their individual needs and physical or spiritual uniqueness. There are libraries to do that.

It is more important to identify truth than to worship Dogma and tradition if you are striving to seek and find God as the Bible asks us to do.
IMO
Without questioning the status quo..we would still think the earth was the center of the Universe..and it would still be considered flat..
Because it was thought that God said that in the Bible with our inflammability of interpretation back then.

As an American Christian we need to respect that what we know may not be the only truth or that as humans we may not know yet. IMO

IMO

oooo h sorry looked back at some of my posts…sorry did not realize or recheck my typing sorry…haha…some are not clear at all…was too carried away with the thoughts of focus on the wording or what I had already written in the sentence…forgive me…

Your criticism of my grammar is noted.
Thanks

Joe! Seems to me the (God hates Fags) cake is discrimination. the two female dolls on top of a cake says nothing negative about heterosexuals it just represents two female dolls. Hating Fags is a discriminating message.
At least that is how I see it.

If you look at the link I posted. The tradition in Biblical times was to defile an enemy or even strangers you did not want in your village by raping them in a homosexual act..it was not a sexual thing at all but merely what dogs to to establish who is the alpha dog.

My female dog would hump my male dog not for sex but to show she was boss.
So even posting any of the 5 Biblical passages does not mean you are discriminating or hateful. Hateful is how you use the information in a destructive way. IMO

Susan Fox..thanks for your messages.
You mentioned personal communications and experiences of people you know that you use to illustrate promiscuity and other points.

Because, possibly a high percent of homosexuals are promiscuous does not mean all should be classified in that category. Wonder if it occurred to you that one reason many are, might be because they see no future in being monogamous? If society does not allow that to happen, it seems to give the license to care less about attempting to be dedicated to one person.

We all realize there are a much higher percentage of the population that are straight. Well the numbers of promiscuous heterosexuals is astonishing. I observed it to be an extreme percentage way above 80 overseas where males are away from their spouses for extended periods of time, in Germany, Okinawa, Japan, Panama, and Korea..strange there are so many gay bars and houses of prostitution or areas of prostitution in close proximity to all military reservations throughout the world.

After the bars close in Korea I noticed a line of about 60 guys and got in line, thinking it was some fast food I could grab before I went home.
Now you gave your example..here is one of mine. I asked the guy in front of me what they were selling…well he told me there was an old lady without any teeth selling oral sex for 10 bucks…

In the Orient I met hundreds of soldiers that when first arriving at the installations would never even think of going out on their wives, but temptation and the cute little girls..temptation most did not last three months before they had their flings on a regular basis.

I am not saying this as a cop out for my lack of control, because I did not have sex til I was 30 and out of the military for the first time, and out of graduate school.

I say this as an observer, a Christian that did not believe in premarital sex myself, but how stupid to criticize what they were doing, they knew better…I had my own sins of pride and superiority to deal with so was not one to cast the first stone.

So think it not good judgement to judge the homosexuals for the same thing the heterosexuals are very good at and doing it in a lot more numbers than are homosexuals.

Strange too that the Aids majority has spread from the gay population to the straight population and that population is now in the majority of cases if gays are openly the ones despised by heterosexuals..hum…strange. Seems they do have sex with gays or at least share needles with them in abundance. Who is worthy of judging who???
It is easy to find someone to judge ...remember the Bible saying do not worry about the splinter in your neighbors eye until you remove the log in your own…wonder why the homosexuals do not monitory their own and the heterosexuals their own and mind their own business to make a difference….easier for the pot to call the kettle black I guess.
Well we all sin and come short of the Glory of God, if you believe in the Bible.
Remember to forgive and you will be forgiven…love your neighbor as yourself, but it seems to frequently we judge vs even read the Beatitudes and preach them when there is so much sin to address???? 
We seem much better at judgement than forgiveness, or peace making ...but who is the Blessed in the Beatitudes???/ the judges???
just curious? would like to know..anyone out there with the truth? the whole truth??/\
You are in my prayers too Susan Fox and bless you and your family and yes you do make some great points…and God only knows you do write well wish I had your skills there haha..I do appreciate it.
I am not here to criticize you but do think you might be in your own world and may not be aware of the reality of human population and what actually we do vs what we preach in our communities.

Key clubs are illegal in the Military yet thrive all over the world where religious families share each others spouses and many in group sex. This is not just Homosexuals that get the credit for the problem.But we hide our heads in the sand while we throw the first stone.

Just a strange observation.
I noticed on this discussion, as well as others, Roman Catholics claiming they do not understand why they are picked on by other people of differing beliefs, weather Christian or Atheists or others.

If you are in your face with your beliefs you logically are going to get in your face from those you are preaching your specific belief to. Especially when you use the word God in the preaching, to back up your belief system.

Strange you would not understand that in the light of the fact that the Bible does say judge Not, lest Ye be judged.

As I attempted to recognize in prior posts. Universal truths often are contradictory as well as have their opposites…sort of like for every particle of matter may have an alternative antimatter required to balance out. This is a Universal Law apparent to those that study science and physics.

So yes haste does make waste, and he who hesitates is lost can exist together in one form of ultimate truth dependent on it’s relativity to the situation.

Yes strawberries and nuts can be nutritious and feed humans, but some humans they can also kill in even small amounts. They have both qualities relative to the person.

You can argue or debate forever you view but from each view the person is correct for his or her particular reality. Both are truths.
It is so simple and we often overlook what is just before our eyes.

Thus also the comments by Jesus ( You have eyes and can not see and ears but can not hear) at least that is how I see it…and why it is important to strive not to determine which is right but establish peace until both can understand the relativity of each other.
IMO

Edwin, sorry there is no homosexual gene. Some fish are suffering from misshapen sexual appendages because of the birth control drugs we are excreting into the water, but this is an aberration of nature caused by man’s sin. The Bible clearly states that God made them “male and female.” Nevertheless, regardless of how it came about I believe same sex attraction is a real thing, and a suffering for the person who must bear it. The way I disagree with you is the inherent despair in your response as if same sex attraction is something that is natural and MUST be expressed in a sexual act. Man has free will, and even with the handicap of a same sex attraction, he can freely chose not to act on it. Just as I freely chose not to engage in a relationship with a divorced man. I am not inexorably forced to engage in a sexual relationship with a divorced
man simply because I am attracted to him. Heterosexual people run into the same temptations as Christian gays, but the proper response is to struggle against temptation. The plain meaning of the Scripture—there is no linguistics in this, and this is taken totally in context—is that we are made “male and female.” A man shall leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife (not to many women, not to another man). Homosexuality (not the person practicing it) is regarded as an abomination. Now, Edwin, this is not a judgement on anyone practicing homosexuality, and should not cause a homosexual person to feel like they want to commit suicide. I love all homosexual people. I accept them as my brothers and sisters in Christ. I feel that I am no different because I have my sins that I struggle against, but I struggle against them. That is the only difference. There is an organization in the Catholic Church called Courage. You should look into it. It consists of gay Catholics who are struggling not to engage in homosexual acts. Do they fall? If they are like me in my weaknesses, I’m sure they do, but the struggle is to overcome their same sex attraction. And this attraction can be healed completely. Jesus said He came to make all things new. That includes us in our sinfulness. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Maybe this is a simple way to state my message.
In a tyrannical country like a Muslim country lead by an orthodox leader, you have a right to preach the country message to each and every member of that community. I would think as many posters here feel not only a right but an obligation. There is though very little flexibility to disagree with the letter of the line of that belief system. Often at the risk of death do people veer any distance from even verbalizing concepts in different terms.

Our Founding Fathers disagreed with this way of living and wanted Freedom to believe what ever they were inspired to believe as pertaining to things of faith and religion and even freedom not to hold commonly held religious beliefs as long as their belief system did not interfere with the individual right of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Thus we have a huge variety of subcultures professing a wide rainbow of faiths and cultures and traditions that they practice and often police, as well as decide weather or not they want the members in their belief system or not.

If not they kick them out of their membership.  Excommunication.

But to live in harmony it is important not to force our specific views on other groups, out of mutual respect in order to live together in harmony, and peace.

This is the do unto others as you would have them do unto you…mutual respect. Funny these simple concepts did come from the Bible but maybe just common sense. Unfortunately often ignored by the arrogant egocentrics, ethnocentric and adolescent know it alls.

Unfortunately most of us raised in this freedom do not experience having to fight for our beliefs by having lived in Communist or other countries where we do not have that freedom, so do not appreciate it or respect that freedom for others.

IMO

Not sure how accurate this article is. I am in the military and work with an openly bisexual guy who first heard about this on one of his web sites and was excited about something to protest about to anyone who would listen. But after doing some internet research took back everything he said because those were just the allegations against the business after the REALLY picky homosexual couple was told by the bakers that they couldn’t provide them a cake based on their wants.

Hey Lisa Kaiser, I understand the discussion against Paul, but your concept of uneducated following Jesus as the fisherman may have been, but the tax collector, and Luke seems were highly educated if I am not mistaken and were strong followers of Jesus. Wonder also about James the Brother of Christ? If Jesus was such a great Rabi and James was His brother wonder if James might have been highly educated as well. Of course most scholars know that James and Paul were extremely in contrast to each other.

Institutional discrimination is an ugly prospect. Especially when religion is used as as excuse. If God doesn’t like Gyas why does he keep making so many of them? They are born that way and it is not a choice according to medicine and science.  I hope we are all able to bring our thinking into the 21st century even if religion won’t.

Well Richard as I said before..Cultures that are against homosexuals and force them to live as heterosexuals make more homosexuals. IMO

Susan:: You are wrong about just chemicals causing animals and plants into various gender variations as well as transgender.

It is natural for them and part of nature.  Yes mutations are being produced now because of chemicals in the environment but that does not relate to the normal variations in gender and transgender.

eg. Guppies, when the school is not balanced in numbers of male and female fish, will change their gender to make a balance in the school, naturally, way before humans were even in the picture, probably.. that is only one example. The Bible did not tell me this, nor did I get this from science until my adult yrs, abut I observed it as a youth in my own aquarium.

I have sense take Zoology so my comments on this subject are not just bias opinion influenced by dogma but research and observation and experts not in just philosophy by people who may not have even seen these animals. God is truth…remember no false witness…sin???

It was not wide spread knowledge until recently, because we did not have adequate observational experience observing animals that we knew homosexuality was also common in animals.

On the concept of homosexuals just attempting to be sexually stimulated by the opposite sex vs the same sex, it only shows you have not studied it. Susan I know you mentioned you have homosexual friends, but there are all levels of homosexuality also..many can not even get sexually stimulated by the opposite sex.

Also the opposite sex may be completely sexually turned off to them by their appearance and actions if they are at the extreme hormonal level of gender levels. That is not a choice, but a natural phenomena for their state of being.

Science established that and you may even look it up and see there is a special vocabulary to identify the various levels that are controlled by not the brain, but the chemical and hormonal activity that controls the brain as well as the sexual body parts.

And yes if you are in a relationship it seems a benefit to dedicate your entire sexual activity to that relationship. But seems if we are talking about God’s Agenda, He was not concerned about it throughout the Old Testament,

it was the common practice to have may wives, slaves, and concubines, with no…not even one..conversation with God criticizing it when He spoke to these people? So seems it was only an opinion from maybe Paul who never even knew Christ but only had one vision of Him..

Sorry for my inept writing ability. Maybe I can clarify in a short format better.
1. I am not apposed to everyone with their personal opinion.
2. I am apposed to any of us thinking we need to require others to have the same opinion on matters of Religion here in the USA..because we have freedom of religion in our constitution.
3. Also many things like human sexuality are areas we have really put a few yrs in studying including the variations of gender even in identical twins and how the position in the womb effect the amounts of hormonal activity experienced by each twin that effect their future gender fixation

4. Gender confusion was considered by Freud to be a normal developmental evolution, but the masses thought we would all eventually grow out of it.
Many new developments have proven this to be true in some cases and not in others. Also the identification that some are even fully bisexual.
It is confusing to the lay person who may consider themselves authority. haha like that is possible in such a complex human developmental activity.

5. It is only natural for any culture to think their culture is the only true and valid way to think and act and their rules and traditions are the only legitimate ones, not unsimilar to how we feel about our religions. That sociologists call ethnocentrism.. This is the group form of ego centrism. Now that makes it difficult to get along with each other when they are convinced each group is the only correct one.

6. If I was raised to eat animal eyes, bugs, and raw monkey brains and maggots, and you were not, it would nauseate you to see me do it let alone do it yourself. Well it is natural to them and is how they got free foods and you look sort of stupid working so hard collecting money so you could eat the way you do.

Also you would look stupid in their environment because you would avoid their foods even if you were starving. We observe each other in our ignorance and lack of experience or exposure to the lifestyles and what is normal to others and thus consider it wrong.

6. It is not just Religion that we differ. In America we need to respect that difference and respect the diversity of life and lifestyles. IMO
Also in the opinion of the Constitution which tells us our right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness…you can not be happy if you are telling me my ways are wrong thought normal to me and for me to do the same to you.

7. As a Chaplains Asst, can you imaging me going unto all the world of the Military and preaching my view of the Gospel to all of the religions and Military Religious leaders my point of view I consider God’s Agenda??? Anyone thinking this has a very serious ego let alone very serious lacking of knowledge. The Pope supported the ecumenical movement seems we would all look up to His view on this subject too..

hope this helps understand the point i have attempted to make.

Edwin Morel,

First, tax collectors were tax collectors.  Not certain any education much less being “highly educated” was invovled.  In Hebrew scripute, tax collectrs were considered so dishonest, they could not testify in court for any reason.  They wer totally barred as witnesses.  Jesus and James—any ideas re their levels of education is jsut pure specualtion.  They may had some eudcation from the rabbis and priests of their day—learned to read Hebrew, learned the Torah. So perhaps they might have had more education than many of the people around them—but I think its a stretch to say they wer “highly educated”.  Luke the physician was probably tehe most educated person in Jeus’ circle—having the msot education on subjects besides the Torah.

Susan just some more thoughts that came to mind from your reply to some of my comments.
The one on go ye unto all the world and preach the .....
as well as the comments on the martyrs that were killed preaching..
I just wonder about something. Of course you did not mention all the Americans killed fighting for freedom of religion and from slavery over our history.
I see in some of the other countries people marching on holidays and carrying crosses and whipping themselves and crawling on rocks etc bleeding in the name of Christianity suffering as they felt Christ suffered looking for penance for their sins and suffering to be more like Christ.
Seems that The Bible also says that silence is golden somewhere and we are to know, in our intelligence that God gave us, what and where to speak. Seems Christ only spoke when asked questions, unless crowds were gathered to hear his messages.

Seems like if it is a sin to commit suicide, God would not look kindly on self mutilation.. Seems He also said that our body is a temple??? so he is going to reward us for mutilating the temple??/ I don’t know, though I do understand that there are opposing truths, that contradictions are not always representative of all truths.

I only bring this up relative to businesses in the USA and how we are to serve each other.

We have a Christian sponsored Ship, full of nurses and doctors, that go around helping the poor with deformities and sicknesses that they have not access to medical for. These ships reconstruct faces and bodies free in order to make life easier and save lives in the name of Christ but serve all, regardless of the faith of the patient. Many Churches of different faiths send them money to support this activity. No one is preaching words, but show by example the Christian message.

It seems that that is a great way, not necessarily the only way. But often the evangelical way verbally chases people away from the Church. People that are dedicated to truth in education and science are often lead away from the Church by people who verbalize and preach yet are hypocrites in their actions from what they preach. They preach truth but have little respect for truth, often ignoring scientific messages that may contradict what they think is truth by putting their own interpretation on Biblical passages.

That is how Galileo was condemned for his preaching that the earth revolved around the sun, not visa versa. As I said before that confuses me because education originated to help us seek truth and bring us closer to understanding of God. IMO
Where is my thinking wrong on any of these points, I would like to know.

Most of the commentators going back and forth on this Catholic blog –appear not to seek the truth but to impose on Catholics, their twisted and abnormal notions on life and human behaviour as being normal. 

They also demand that the Catholic Church approve as virtue the abominable sin of sodomy that cry out to heaven for vengeance together with other immoral behaviour, while at the same time denigrating Catholic Belief, Tradition and Magisterium.

Exchanging comments with them is like flogging a dead horse. 
 
In Ecclesiasticus 22:14, 15,  God speaks to us:  For the wicked life of a wicked fool is worse than death.
The mourning for the dead is seven days: but for a fool and an ungodly man all the days of their life.
Talk not much with a fool, and go not with him that hath no sense.
Keep thyself from him, that thou mayst not have trouble, and thou shalt not be defiled with his sin

Edwin, I see you are a kind and concerned man, and I don’t disagree about freedom of religion. Gays are free to chose what they chose. I was free to chose to marry a divorced man. I chose not to. Right now I could chose to commit adultery if I wanted to. But I choose not to. The bakers have the right—so far in this United States—to refuse service to anyone including two gays wanting a same sex wedding cake. You are making the argument for the poor bakers who were exercising their rights to be different. However, while one worm might be both female and male, that is the way God made the worm. God did not make human beings that way. God made them male and female and we have dignity as human beings, male and female he made us.  Some of us are born with abnormalities. I would not make fun of a handicapped person. I would not make fun of nor would I mistreat a person who either chose or felt compelled to a same sex attraction. They are children of God just like I am. I would look at them, and try to see and serve the Person of Jesus Christ. But it is very false false charity if I see my brother and sister making a serious mistake, and I do not speak out, especially if they are open to listening. Now in the case of the baker. They didn’t say anything to the couple. They were fighting for their own freedom of conscience which told them in good conscience they could not make the cake. That’s it, plain and simple. They were Christians exercising their Christianity. No one needs to be hurt. They were doing the very thing you are defending in your many posts about choosing to eat brains or not choosing to eat brains. (I like sheep brains) But just because a homosexual person is burdened with same sex attraction does not mean they have to act on it. Just because I like men doesn’t mean I will enter into a sexual relationship with every or any man I meet. I will not. I chose not. It is the tenants of my faith that I should be faithful to my husband, and that is what I will do. Just because someone has a same sex attraction does not mean they have to enter into a sexual relationship with a person of the same sex. They are free to say no, and live chastely.  If someone is interested in joining the Catholic Church, who suffers with a same sex attraction, I would advise them to avoid the near occasions of sin, avoid gay bars, avoid people who think it’s okay to have sex with a person of the same sex. Don’t read blogs that express the opinion that sex is okay between two people of the same sex. Instead read Scripture beginning to end, a little bit every night, asking Jesus to explain it to you.  My husband used to be an alcoholic. He learned he had to stop associating with old friends who drink because they would try to lure him back into drinking.  It’s not hard to avoid the near occasion of homosexual sin, nor of alcoholism.  Gays are a very small minority and all you have to do is avoid their places of association. Avoid friendships with gay people who think it’s okay to practice homosexual sex. It’s okay to associate with gays who are struggling to live a chaste life like you are. For an alcoholic, avoid bars. Don’t buy alcohol and bring it home. I am a diabetic, and I avoid buying dessert because I know if it’s in the house I will eat it!  Re: people in the Old Testament. You are misunderstood the book, just because someone commits a sin in the old or new testament doesn’t mean that God approves. It is a history of a people. Certainly, God didn’t approve multiple wives. That is clear from the story of Solomon, from the fact that Moses tried to ban divorce, but the people were stubborn.  Ultimately, it is clear from the 10 commandments and the Beatitudes. Read the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chapter 5, 6 and 7. That Abraham passed his wife Sarah off as his sister so he wouldn’t be killed was not pleasing to God. What was pleasing to God was Abraham’s faith. Everybody who reads that story knows that in whatever language they read it. Abraham was a type for God the Father. Abraham was willing but did not have to sacrifice his son Isaac. Going up the mountain for the sacrifice, Isaac asked where was the sacrifice? For he didn’t know he was on the menu! Abraham prophetically answered: “God Himself will supply the lamb for the sacrifice!” And historically that proved true when they found the goat. But a goat is not a lamb, and Abraham’s words also had a deeper meaning fulfilled in Scripture when St. John the Baptist said, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!” (He was pointing to Jesus Christ), And Jesus Christ did indeed take on our sins, including the sins of homosexuality, and He went and died on the cross for all of us—straight, gay, black brown, white, all mankind—so that we might be saved. Jesus takes all our sins, and makes everything new.  My stepfather, when I invited him to become Catholic many years ago, told me, “I don’t qualify.” I wish I’d known then what to say, “Dad, you must be the only human being in the history of the world for whom Jesus Christ did not die!” I’ve heard of people like you! He said he would give his life for everyone except for .....
Hah! It never happened. Everyone qualifies. The only people left out of the Kingdom of God are those who refuse Him. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

\\God made them male and female\\

Apparently you’ve never heard of a condition in humans—totally unchosen—called intersexuality.

To give one example: A person in Texas, to all appearances a beautiful woman with breasts and born with female genitals. But when her periods had not started by the time she was in college, tests were done. It turned out she had MALE genotype: XY. According to Texas law, which determines sex by genes, she is a man.

Another example: A man in the US Army had a CT scan which discovered he had a uterus and non-functioning ovaries. Is he a man or woman?

And there are other examples I could give.

God made these people the way they are. It DOES happen.

Hi Susan thanks again for your earnest and kind reply, but again I am not able to write clear or present my message adequately I guess. Sorry

Yes we are not worms, I am not a worm, humans are not worms or born like worms, but you have to have never been exposed to truth of the Medical world and Truth of humanity and it’s diversity.

It is a fact that 1 in 1200 Humans are born with some degree of and variation of hermaphrodite physical traits, or even fully developed both gender sexual organs…it is not something people like to advertise.

The American Medical Assoc and organizations have to list and identify these facts…unfortunately unless you dedicate your life or are born in a family that has these deep secrets you don’t know they exist. Just like if you never saw anyone eat maggots as we eat cheerios, you think it abnormal.

As I said it is ethnocentrism and blindness to things you have not experienced and you think wrong because it is not a part of your normal. They that experience the alternative think it normal and what you do not normal.

The founding Fathers designed our constitution to overcome your ability to tell me what is normal as long as it does not harm another or deny, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness to others.

That is what educated Americans know as the anti discrimination laws refer to…that is why you are free to believe anything is right or wrong and you can punish yourself as much as you want by doctrine you love and trust. But that freedom also means you need to respect the same freedom to others of different doctrine.

If you disallow my freedom, you deserve your freedom disallowed. Remember you seem to ignore the Do Unto Others as You would Have them do Unto You..or the Judge not lest ye be judged.

Yes you might judge me for some trivial thing I do ...but just think of what you judged as a kid to find as an adult, knowing and experiencing so much more over the years, how your judgement was wrong ??? well our spiritual beliefs and maturity undergoes the same adolescent stubbornness.

I only say this as a participants…as a youth I was an arrogant, know it all fundamentalist Christian…and that was in a family of Atheists was sometimes hard to do, haha and I was very opinionated..Usually later finding my family acted more like Christians than Me..haha..looking back.
I learned to appreciate my family when I did mature.

In this light the Preaching Judgmental Christians need to get a clue and realize what the Bible is saying to them that they are ignoring and it is right in front of them yet their focus is sex and judgement and not what the point is that God is speaking to us in the words we read and are supposed to learn. IMO

You have perfect right to deny yourself life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness but not to deny others, according to our constitution. That is what America is all about. Strange but the Bible has that same message if you detach it from the dogma and politics and economic agenda.
God does not have an agenda He has an eternal plan beyond our ability to see or understand. IMO

Susan as far as keeping away from Homosexuals, I think you have many of them as Priests and Nuns and teachers as well as associated in most jobs in the community that people are working side by side with and proud to be friends and in business with. So your comment on exclusion as if they were alcoholics does not equate.

It also does not go along with your comment on your own experience with knowing and working with them?

You mentioned some people you know that are gay are promiscuous, I mentioned multitudes of heterosexuals in the military I worked with that were also promiscuous..

.I could not quit so they would not be a threat to me and convince me to do the same or act the same as them? I could not have quit if I wanted to anyway it was the draft and although I volunteered in the USMC, I did not have the right to quit that job for 4 yrs.

Homosexuals can not escape heterosexuals for fear of having them turn them into heterosexuals either.

Sussan Fox,

Wow what awful comment about gay people.  Perahps you think you do not know any gay people.  Its wrong to be freinds with gay people????  Because you think they are sinner, because you think they will contaminate you witht hewe awfulnes??  Wow, the RCC is doing a very good job of indoctrinationg RCs with hate, intorlarance and bigotry.  a sure sign that the RCC is not a “christian” faith or institution.

You probably associate with gay peole every day (gay people in relationships, etc) and do not know it. Gay people are RC priests (who may or may not be celeibate), they are doctors, lawyers, accountants, truck drivers, pharmacists, bankers, your co-workers, etc, etc.  Gay people are everywhere and in all walks of life.

I am sorry that your RCC makes hate a doctrine and passes this hate along to its more gullible members.

Well I know my brain works different than the norm, but my degree in education is in special education for the handicapped, so may be a bit for the underdog under most circumstances.
But just think about it…I do not have the answer to this question but just thinking about it.:::
If you consider Homosexuality the same as Alcoholism…it is a sickness.
The Medical and Psychiatric world does not agree with this but lets say you are correct.
You may have heard of Father Damien. He went to minister to the lepers in Hawaii…they had a contagious disease..homosexuality is not contagious.
Hey did not go to cure them…but to minister to their needs not to avoid the sick that were God’s children. He gave his life to their service not preaching to them their sins, but lived with them to make their lives better and his life was his witness as well as his attending to their spiritual life…that is how a devote Christian might approach a sickness. He did die of Leprosy and did so devote to Christ.

He also ministered to the non Christians his service was not only to those that held only his faith as a RC Catholic, yet he did have to fight for any support from that organization and did not get a lot of help until later in his service. That is Christianity and not dogma, yet dedicated to the organized, RC Church

Susan Fox,

Same sex attraction is not a “burden”—its just a fact of life for some people.  And gay people do not act on every urge, just as stright people do not act on very urge.  But no one, not the RCC, not yu, not anyone ahs the right to demand or expect that gay peole live life without sexula expression/initimacy. 

The RCC pretends that gay people loving each other in a committed relationship is somehow some big horrible thing—worse than priests sexually abusing young people, worse than war, worse than human actions that cause people to live in poverty and starve.  Worse than any other “sin”.  What the RCC should be focusing on is not hating gay people, not trying to pass off hate as a virtue, not indoctrinating gullible RCs with hatred tworad gay people.  The RCC should be focusing its immense resources—spiritual, human monetary—on fighting poverty, hunger, war. 

Also, the Hebrew scriptures have NOTHING to do with the misguided belief that Jesus was God or messiah.  Its an immoral thing for “christiana” to deliberately distort the meaning of Hebrew scripture.  The writers of Hebrew scripture were NOT writing about Jesus.  The Hebrew wcriptures do not belong to “christians”.

People say that the Catholic Church has no right to condemn homosexuality as if we are the only ones against it. However, I wonder if they can prove that God is not against homosexuality.

Excuse me. I can associate with gay people. I do. I don’t suffer from a same sex attraction.  I can read gay blogs if I feel I have the time. I don’t. People with same sex attraction, that is what you term gays, who do not want to indulge in the gay lifestyle, who want to live a Christian life of whole-hearted love for Jesus Christ, they should avoid other gays.  LOOK AT THE CONDITIONS I AM SETTING INTO THAT AVOIDANCE.  Just like I, a diabetic, needs to avoid desserts. You—a non-diabetic—you can eat all the desserts you want to. There is no hatred in my comments. I have told you repeatedly that I love each and every person I meet regardless of their sexual orientation or color. I see Jesus Christ in these people. This is my faith. What I am trying to tell you is that there is no requirement to engage in sex whether you are straight, gay or born with two large breasts and a penis.  If a child is born without a hand. That is not normal. If a child is born without an eye, that is not normal. Someone is born without the right stuff to engage in straight sex, that is not normal.  Agreed God made that person, and loves him or her as His child. I love that person as a child of “OUR” Father. However, his physical state is not normal. It does not justify anyone else’s behavior.  The Christian/Jewish Scriptures in no way justify an actively engaged gay lifestyle. But you are free not to be a Christian. You may live your life as you please. No one is telling you not to.
Fr. Damien did indeed serve the lepers, and caught their disease. And I would hope there are Catholics and Christians willing to serve gay people in the same manner, but in order to be true to their faith, they would not end up gay. Sorry.  There is no possible correlation between leprosy and the gay lifestyle. Leprosy is involves a physical germ. The gay lifestyle—actively engaged in—is a disorder. This is a teaching of the Catholic Church. However, the Church does not say if someone suffers from this disorder that they are to be shunned or not loved. Quite the contrary. They deserve more love and more concern than people who live without a disorder. And God loves them more! The greater the sinner, the greater he deserves God’s mercy and the greater mercy he will receive if he will but open himself to God. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Here: You like to read gay blogs. Here is a gay web page to read that explains why a practicing Catholic gay might have the courage to live a chaste lifestyle:
http://couragerc.net

God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

\\Wow what awful comment about gay people. Perahps you think you do not know
any gay people. Its wrong to be freinds with gay people???? \\

I’m not talking about homosexuality or even transsexuality/transgenderism.

I’m talking about INTERSEXUALITY. Can you tell the difference between the three? Apparently not. INTERSEXUALITY is a totally unchosen PHYSICAL condition.

And if it’s any of your business, I’m gay myself, but love Jesus first of all.

Well can anyone prove that God is not against homosexuality?
1. No one can prove that Mathew, Mark, Luke or John wrote the books that the Church claims they wrote. Paul never knew Christ other than one vision, as far as any literature reveals or claims..
2. If we believe that God made all things in heaven and earth, and we believe the Bible in Gen..that He said ( and it was good) then the evidence is in biological information that we have identified, as well as developed a vocabulary for. All forms of homosexuality and transgender are quite evident throughout the plant and animal kingdom of which we just happen to be a part.

3. The fact that in Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, no word existed for the concept of homosexuality makes it seem a very unimportant Biblical concept, contrary for the dogma and politics of modern religion ...

4. There is as I see it, even as a believer in God, more evidence of proof that homosexuality is a form of gender diversity as natural as heterosexuality and bisexuality than much of the information that is in the Bible that we do not know for sure what parts are just story to exemplify a point and what parts actually occurred in history.

This of course is just my opinion.

George Pierson, 

No one si saying that the RCC does not have the right to condemen whatever it whats.  The RCC is perfectly free to condemen whatever ti wants to condemn.

But everyone is free to question the logic, the rational behind anything the RCC condemens.  In addition the RCC is NOT justified in attempting to impose its bigotry and hatred on every American citizen.  ALL Americans, including gay Americans, have the right of equal protection under the law prusuant tot he 14th Amendment of the US Constitution.  To the extent that the RCC works to deny the constitutional rights of one grooup of American citizens, the RCC is anti-American and is sptrying to spread hatred, bigotry and inequality and discrimiantion.  And EVERY American has the right to fight against that.

Susan Fox,

It is clear from your comments that you think gay people are less than other people.  You think gay people are bas and not as good as other people.  You can try to deny your hatred and bigotry all you want, but your words betray you. 

And the “gay” blog you you cite in your comment is NOT a gay blog.  It is “christian” propaganda meant to spread hate and bigotry toward gay people.

George Pierson,

There is no evidence anywhere that God is against homosexuality.  Yes, you can quote scripture until the cows come home, but there is no evidence that such ideas come from God, or that God inspired such ideas.  You are free to beleive that these ideas come from God, but there is no proof that they do. 

“Christians” you quote scripture to support their beleif that condemns homosexulaity are merely cherry-picking from scripture and are wrongly using scripture to support their own bigotry.

Well sorry Susan but in my eyes truth is closer to God and Christ than dogma any day, but obviously only in my eyes it seems.

I see that as displaced worship where we look at a picture of Christ and worship it vs what it stands for. It is no different than attempting to sit on the word chair, where the symbol becomes more important that what the symbol stands for.

1. So God gives up all of our gifts of biological functions and drives and the need to consume food and water and excrete these as they perform their functions in our bodies.
We consume and excrete the waste products produced from the way it is utilized in our bodies to keep us healthy and alive.
2. The hormones and glands produce products from all this and waste is required to be evacuated or if it is not allowed to be evacuated it poisons the body and decay and death occurs eventually. The body is as dependent on evacuation and consumption in order to attain homeostasis or balance, and healthy growth and sustain life.

3. We blow our nose, we defecate, we urinate and get rid of these waste products.

4. If you are a parent and you gave your kids hands and feet and all the tools to function as a complete human you would expect them to utilize all the things you gave them in birth, to actualize themselves as efficient and effective human beings to contribute to your family and society in the best way possible.

5. Suppose out of respect for you they deny their physical gifts. They love you so much they are, out of respect and reverence for you,

dedicating their arms and legs to you, sacrificing them in penance to honor you. Of course this means for the rest of your life you would be responsible to carry and care for them and do what they could do for themselves
so it would obviously not function, as respect to you, but disrespect for you would do what you gave them the tools to use to do all the tasks required themselves.
6. So the Church says that the purpose of gender is to procreate and only to procreate, and serve God with all of their heart, mind and soul.
7. The church says to deny self and fast, denying the God given body its normal intake for survival to honor God.

They say to Marry God, which denies sex because you can not have sex with God and both men and women dedicate themselves to God who has a male gender being the Father of Mankind.

Yet deny that two men or two women may also want to marry and not have sex…yet not worried if a male and female want to marry and not have sex.

8. Males have hormonal development and productions that build up and need to be released so the body has ways of doing it automatically through nocturnal emissions.
It is really very little different than the same processes experienced by the nose when we have a runny nose. Yet the Church tells kids in confession to control their dreams so they don’t have these nocturnal emissions.
At least people I knew as a kid said their priests told them that. Also they are told not to masturbate and release these built up pressures because it is against God to do that. They say dumb lies like if you keep that up you will go blind or grow hair on your hand. ??? bear false witness?
Also the Medical profession says it is not only natural to masturbate, but a requirement to release the pressure, and toxins around the prostate. Even for married people to do this act.

It is not a sexual act but an act of releasing toxins no different than defecating or urinating or blowing your nose.

The Church fixates and does not distinguish sexual acts from other functions of our biology. The same organs used for sex are used to urinate and so they are not a single function tool.

It is not a surprise that people that are so strongly apposed to having sex would have all the hormones in their brains working overtime to make them crazy, and emphasis, or sublimate by worrying so much about what others do sexually.

What I don’t understand is how the Church focuses so much on the 5 passages that could possibly refer to homosexuals vs how little they focus on the 360 references to how we are all to treat each other and our spouses.

How little they focus on the not bearing false witness but don’t read any other literature that the Church does not distort so we might have a more realistic view of truth?

Also Susan you can not adequately love someone if you do not attempt to empathize with their needs and feelings and think of how you would act if given the same challenges they have. You cover the truth by saying you love everyone without really knowing the meaning of the word. Love and hate do not coexist in my mind. You may hate promiscuity for it does produce terrible diseases but individual sexual acts with consenting adults is no one’s business as long as they are not doing anything but showing mutual respect, love and helping fulfill each other physically and spiritually. IMO

Dixibehr,

My comments were in response to comments made by Susan Fox (and I addressed my response to Susan Fox).  I am sorry you thought my responses were directed at any comments you made.

The Catholic Church is not the only ones that teach against immorality. Even if we are the only ones, it is better to listen to God than to listen to men.

The only people who want homosexuality to be accepted are homosexuals and those people, especially Christians, who have decided that what God says against immorality is wrong.

MORALITY & ETHICS

Tracts:

Abortion (Fathers*)

Birth Control

Contraception and Sterilization (Fathers*)

Early Teachings on Homosexuality (Fathers*)

Homosexuality

* Includes commentary by the Early Church Fathers

All with imprimatur.

http://archive.catholic.com/library/morality_ethics.asp

Lisa Kaiser and Edwin Morel,
You are both trolls with no life.  Sin is not a civil right!
THONGS PARADE IS NOT A CIVIL RIGHT!!!!!
Lisa, St. Paul speaks for Christ, St. Paul spoke against homosexual sin.  You are one dense troll, or you are dishonest human who support a destructive lifestyles of sin.
Who would believe your nonsense!!!!

Dear Dixibehr
I am really glad you love Jesus. I do too. Yes I thought you were referring to a physical condition in which someone innocently had abnormal sex organs. Now if a boy is born without a hand does that mean that some of us born with a hand should cut it off. And if a child is born without an eye, can we then conclude that two eyes are not normal. What if some animals like worms have both male and female sex organs, or what if homosexuality happens among turkeys? No, two eyes are normal. Being born with male and female bodies is normal. Turkeys normally come male and female because otherwise the species would not continue. God said, go out, be fruitful, multiply! I always tell the women with a lot of grandchildren that they were very obedient to God’s first commandment: “Be fruitful, multiply.” By making most people male and female,  God is telling us—by our nature—what is normal behavior. I do empathize with people who are born without a hand, without an eye, without normal male and female bodies. I empathize with people who have same sex attraction because I have all kinds of disordered attractions in my heart as well. I am just like you.  I struggle with these things every day. I truly examine my conscience and see where my thinking and my actions are different than God’s. How do I know how God thinks? I read the Bible. Why does that tell me what God thinks? because it is His self revelation. Christianity is the only religion in the world in which God revealed Himself first with the Jews and then He spoke once and for all through a Son, Jesus Christ. And when you read all four Gospels you know how God thinks. For instance, The first will be last and the last will be first. Well, I normally would be rushing for the grocery line to beat the lady heading there as well. But once I realize that the first will be last the last will be first, I see someone running to beat me to the grocery line, and I stop. I let them go first. That is not normal behavior for me. But that is God’s behavior. That is the way He wants us to act. It’s different than what we would expect. Frankly, I tell God He thinks like an alien. And that’s the way you see the Catholic interpretation on Scripture and homosexuality. You think we are bad, hateful aliens. I understand.  I truly do because I struggle with the way God thinks too. I am a human being just like you. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

To Repent and Believe

Wow, what nasty comments!  Your comments just reinforce the evidence that the RCC is teaching hatred and bigotry. And that gullible RCs are indoctrinated with that message of hate and bigotry. Your comments are hardly “christian.”  And I wil take your hateful comments as evidence that you ahve no logical or rational arguement to refute what I say and that you are just having a hard time admitting that I am right.

You are of course free to believe that “St. Paul speaks for Christ”.  But there is no evidence of that—mainly because Jesus was neither God nor messiah.  Paul speaks only for himself.

No, I am not a “troll”.  This comment thread is open to all to express ideas and opinions.  You seem to be having a hard to realizing that not everyone buys int the hatred and bigotry of the RC hierarchy re gay people (who like all people are made in the image of God).

Hi Susan Fox
I just want to address your comment on the only ones that want to support the homosexuals are homosexuals.

Besides what I have written over and over again saying this is not true and the majority of books written on the subject are science books written by people in university studies and they are straight.

The lady that hosts the Christian gays.com site is a lady ordained minister, and her husband is a psychologist. They are not gay but see how those who call themselves Christians and others that ridicule the gays and bully them as seen on here, need to know the truth about homosexuality.  At least that is how I remember when I found the site doing research a number of years ago. Of course you being a selective reader did not go to the site to find out the truth, but choose to be comfortable with your slanted point of view. That is your right and your use of American Freedom.
What is not right is for you to proclaim an untruth to support your view and think an educated person would agree with the lack of facts you use to support the view that only homosexuals support homosexuals. As a parent would you not support your child if you realized they had the problem? Some do not others do. ““Many who did not ended up with dead kids who took their own lives due to embarrassment they could not live with.

Lisa Kaiser

“-mainly because Jesus was neither God nor
messiah.”

Huh?

Well Lisa Kaiser that type of comment, calling someone else a troll, usually comes from people that only have a limited amount of information, and think anyone who thinks out of their box is ignorant. Children do that to each other.

But often fanatics don’t want to question anything, that is why they tried to kill Galileo for his discovery that the earth was not the center of the universe.

Also people often fear that if the information they have been taught all their lives, the facts they even taught their kids, may have been in error, makes them look bad.

So it is more comfortable to cover up the truth than to face it sometimes. It is definitely less embarrassing.

Churches have done that and call it lies for God, or for The Mother Church, because they fear loosing people if they realize that some of the infallible information given over the centuries may have been in error.

Strange when the Church originated the * Tho shalt not bear false witness*
They also developed all of education and literature and science to bring them closer to Truth itself which is God the creator of it all.

All Roman Catholics are not the name callers but the workers who do not spend their time fighting people with opposing information but helping people who are in need like Mother Theressa. They usually do not get tied up in the politics but keep busy doing the work of the Church helping humanity. It is ashame they suffer for the ignorant.

Stillbelieve,

Yes, I certainly beleive Jesus was a great teacher of the Torah. He wans an observant Jew, whoe message of love and other teachings came stright from the Torah.  Jesus made the message of the Torah relevant and compelling for the people of his time and place and for us in the 21st century as well.

But he was not God or messiah.  Messiah is a concept oof and found in ancient Judaism and Hebrew wcripture.  The concept of messiah has a definition and Jesus never met that defintion.  The idea thatJesus was God and messiah is a twisting of the original deifintion, a fiction created by the writers of the gospels and by Paul in order to convince non-Jews who ded not know better and uneducated Jews, that Jesus was something he clearly was not.

You do know that many many people in the US and around the world do not beleive Jesus was God, right?  One of many compelling reasons that the RC teaching should not be iposed upon American society as a whole.

Beleive what you want, do not try to impose it upon others.

The other variable not discussed here yet, is when you condemn homosexuality in general for others vs just your group or self, you add to the insults that children of gay parents get making them uncomfortable. No, and it initiates, the bullying, that cause these kids terrible suffering, and pain, and none of this was their choice, and they love their parents unconditionally, and your hateful verbalization sets off a wave throughout the community, that is very socially and psychologically destructive.

It has nothing representing the Love Jesus talks about or blessed are the peace makers.

And no the statistics shown by the over a million gay couples that adopt straight people’s children, they do not raise gay children. They are not influenced by the gender of their parents.

We often are not aware of the ripple effect of our verbalization and judgement we offer so freely without concern for it’s destructive nature to others.

Something else to consider on the God thinking it is not good to be alone, and so he made a help mate.
When I was studying Biology and zoology in the 50s and 60s..we never had any observations presented to us about inter-species couples.

Now on the Animal Planet, we see elephants and dogs coupling, lions and antelope, Orangutangs and kittens, apes and 4 legged friends, dogs and many animals even dogs feeding fish and on and on and of course these couplings do not involve sex. But many relationships to not involve sex.

That is not the only purpose for a help mate. Yes go and reproduce but all are not made to do that. Because one couple is not, it is not a threat to your procreating abilities or lifestyle.

Who are we to judge the animals freedom to choose who they want to spend their lives with and even morn over after one of them dies. God gives them the freedom and seems like He sets up obvious examples like that to teach us without need for words, or ancient writings that were not science books.
Just some thoughts for consideration, I do not have the answers.

Susan Fox,

Just because you do not support gay people inthe quest for full equality as American citizens does not mean that other stright people think and act as you do.  The majority of Amerivans support marriage equality.  Even Newt Gingrich now admits its time for the GOP to drop its opposition to same- sex marriage. 

If you want prood that the majority of Americans support same-sex marriage look to our last presidential election.  Who won??  The angry, befuddled, out of touch, empathy deficient, anti-gay white guy???  Nooooo.  The person who garnered the majority of popular and Electoal College votes was the smart, calm, black guy who supports the rights of women, the rights of people of color, and the rights of gay people.  And that apparently is what the majority of Americans want.

The RC bishops wasted milions upon millions of dollars given to them by lay people in a vain, misdirected effort to elect Mitt Romney—someone the American people rightfully and thoroughly rejected.  Are you guys going to hold the bishops accountable for all that money they wasted?  For all that money that could have gone to fund Catholic Charities programs, to help young men enter seminary, to feed the poor, to provide care for the sick, to help RC schools?  If not, then you are helping the RC hierarchy psred hate, not love.

God teaches hatred and bigotry?
A parent should help their child if they have a problem.
However, a parent should not encourage that problem.
If your teen had a drinking problem, would you have drinking parties or send them to AA?
If they had a drug problem, would you give them help or would you buy them narcotics?
If they had an eating disorder, would you encourage their eating disorder or would you get them the help that they need?
I do not recall where it says that God has to check man’s laws before he can act.
Strange when the Church originated the * Tho shalt not bear false witness*?
Read the Ten Commandments. The Ninth Commandment says “Tho shalt not bear false witness”.

Edwin,
I truly do not know where I said only gays support gays? I don’t think that. I have found the opposite to be true? God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot com.
P.S. yes, I have relied on you to tell me what that web site said.
Lisa, I do believe that Jesus Christ is true God and true man. That happens also to be the opinion of the Catholic Church. Sorry you are on a Catholic web site. You tend to get Catholic viewpoints here. No reason to engage in name calling just because I have an option. If I tell you I think eating human flesh is a sin, does that mean I am a hate mongering anti-cannibal?

Well obviously the problem here comes from both sides of the debate using a different definition of the word homosexual.

If anyone took the time to look at my link you would see a theological definition for the reason the 5 segments of the Bible that the RC uses to define homosexuality has nothing to do with homosexuality, but the tradition of male rape and lack of hospitality.

The reason it looks to non RC and other Religions that base their views on ancient misinterpreted passages translate by celibate sexually frustrated males, vs a platform composed of both married and non married and of both genders that were scholars it was bias to begin with and funded by the Kings and prejudices of the times.

God is not interested in your interpretations that we are preaching He only has truth in his agenda. He has His laws and yes does even brake them Himself as we are only lately learning. Or as we define laws our definitions are not always as varied as His is but as you know he sees eternally and that is a bit much for us and even our vocabulary

does not match that concept.
The templet to use in any case unless you only worship the symbol ( Church) vs the truth (God), Truth vs dogma..in other words if you are guilty of displaced worship or trying to sit on the word chair we are out of touch with reality.

The American American medical, and psychological and psychiatric groups do not classify homosexuality as a sickness like alcoholism or even an eating disorder or sexual disorder it is a normal for them state.

So non of us can win the argument if one side is following a lie and the other the scientific defined truth.

If the people identified the earth was flat, or the earth was the center of the universe and science and experience proved that concept wrong we change the interpretation to coincide with truth. We earlier made a mistake.

.well because you will not read the reasons in someone else book as to why it was found to be a mistake you will continue to abuse those who should not be abused in the name of your Religion. IMO

Well George Pierson, seems that you might want to check into the facts before you present a comment like that as your counseling of people with problems.
You might get together with parents who have children that show gay or transsexual tendencies and what they go through to understand their problems. It is not easy and it is more like trying to show your child how to see color when they are born blind than to cure and alcoholic child. If you don’t know anything about a subject you should not attempt to counsel people that have a problem you have no experience with or education to know what your talking about. IMO

George Pierson, no one would argue that God’s law in any case is wrong. It is the interpretation of what those laws refer to that is in question.

It is summed up in the words of Jesus..you have eyes and can not see and ears and can not hear.

It is the Churches view of deny your biological needs in spite of The fact God made them for homeostasis or the balance of healthy chemistry. The Church often denies Gods laws, as it did with Galileo and many other scientists including a lot of women who are not given credit for their contributions to truth because they were women.

Denial of the fact that homosexuality is a natural state for homosexuals is denial of God’s truth. Forcing them to be celibate and not allowing them to couple with each other as help mates is denial of God’s law. Of course dogma is not always parallel with ?Gods Law but displaced worship. IMO

Ethnocentrism and ego centrism and the concept of superior race or superior religion is the same concepts that killed all the Jews and homosexuals in the Nazi regime. The White Supremacist had the same way of thinking..

The martyrs in the US Military fought for freedom from this type of thinking as did the people in the Reformation to free themselves from the tyranny of the Roman Catholics forcing people to believe their view of God’s law, when it was clear to many they were distorting it and corrupting it with politics, power and economics. eg making people pay money to forgive the sins of the dead relatives and pay their way into heaven when Christ already did that for us.

It was those that saw truth in a different way that formed the changes made in the church so that it is no longer like the Orthodox fundamentalist, fanatic suicide bombers of some of the Muslim faiths.

If you disagree with this you may want to ask the Pope why and how they get various religions together in the Ecumenical Movement. How they can do that and not proselytize to change all of them to one way of thinking and worshiping. It they can do it so can you. Plenty of people over the years have given their lives for us to enjoy this freedom. We need to take advantage of it and protect it. IMO

Well George, I think I found the answer to your question on God’s truth or man’s truth. Because if you know your history of the Church science evolved in spite of what dogma thought was Gods truth, and obviously eventually the Church ends up coinciding with Gods truth it just takes awhile. a couple hundred yrs in some cases.
My answer to you comes from Gandhi..during a military conflict a Muslim man came to him crying about how the Christians had killed his son. He came to Gandhi filled with pain and hatred for the Christians.
Gandhi said in order to rectify with God you should adopt a Christian boy who’s parents had been killed by Muslims and raise that boy in his own Christian faith. That will make you healed and in line with God.
If some of you end up in hate and are punished by God to end up giving birth to homosexual or transgender or hermaphrodite children you are bound to understand better what God’s law is vs man’s misinterpretation of God’s law and what truth is. IMO
Or you might want to adopt a gay, transgender or hermaphrodite child and raise it.

Lisa Kaiser

“Yes, I certainly beleive Jesus was a great teacher of the Torah. He wans an observant Jew, whoe message of love and other teachings came stright from the Torah.  Jesus made the message of the Torah relevant and compelling for the people of his time and place….”

So you believe Jesus lived and he was “a great teacher of the Torah.”  How did he die? 

Galileo is not a salvation issue. God’s laws are. You can say that it is only the Catholic Church all you want. The fact of the matter is that you are saying that God has no business telling you what you can and cannot do here.

Susan,

You said, “
If I tell you I think eating human flesh is a sin, does that mean I am a hate mongering anti-cannibal?”

Well, Susan, I think it means you do not in the RC doctrine of transubstantiation.

Stillbelieve,

Well the NT says that Jesus was crucified.  And given that the Roman Empire was very fond of that method of killing people, I don’t see any reason to doubt that. The life that Jesus led and the death hde died are found only in the NT and if the NT stopped there, it would be fine. 

But then Paul and the writers of the gosepl go on to create fiction in order tot try to convince people that Jesus was something he was not.  Jesus was not God and/or messiah.  He was a very good teacher of Torah—he lived, he died, he stayed dead.

Susan Fox,

Whoops, I left out an important word in my comment.  Here is the revised/corrected comment:

You said, “If I tell you I think eating human flesh is a sin, does that mean I am a hate mongering anti-cannibal?”

Well, Susan, I think it means you do not believe in the RC doctrine of transubstantiation.

Do businesses not have the right to refuse service?

I am so sorry people on this site? I was under the impression that we were discussing the reasons for not agreeing with a baker refusing a specific service to a lesbian couple for a wedding cake.

It was stated as a reason that it was against the RC doctrine to support a marriage that was representing sexual acts that were sinful.

Am I wrong here??????

My bringing up conflicts in doctrine with various religions was only to illustrate how we all think other religions are ridiculous in one way or another, and that it is arrogant as an American to think any one religion or even a complete lack of religion is the one an only way for other than ourselves in our freedom to worship and believe here in America. That is why we have freedom of and freedom from religion so we are free to or not to believe.

It is not the place to debate our beliefs vs the beliefs of others IMO, it is weather or not putting our personal beliefs out there in our service to the public in a public business is out of place.

Judge not lest ye be judged, does not mean we do not judge when people are harming someone, raping or molesting children, or have diseases we need to help out. It means taking away people’s right to live, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That is the only point. It is taking away the purchasers right to buy a cake decorated in a way that enables them to pursue happiness, and does not take away their liberty to do that in a free world.

Homosexuality in the USA is considered by science, medicine and in our freedom to be a legitimate form of humanity. Even if you believe it is not Christian or Muslim or whatever they also have the right even if it is Atheist. Freedom of religion is also free not to believe in any of them.

That is the only point of the conversation here we could argue and debate all day the conflicts in dogma, doctrine and religions and even how each religion defines their words or passages of the Bible and get nowhere. That is not the point of the conversation.
Where am I wrong here????

Lisa Kaiser

“But then Paul and the writers of the gosepl go on to create fiction in order tot try to convince people that Jesus was something he was not.  Jesus was not God and/or messiah.”

The fate of the Apostles and Disciples who came out of hiding after the death of Jesus must have all been crazy, for this is the price they paid for their preaching and teaching.  Crucified - 6; Beheaded - 2; Stoned or clubbed - 2; Hanged - 1; Dragged -1; Blade or Spiked - 3.  They all died poor, so they allowed themselves to be killed for a lie?  Does that make logical sense?  What was in it for them?  Either Jesus really was who he said he was and really did raise from the dead and they were willing to die for that; or, the Apostles and Disciples were the biggest and dumbest cons who ever lived who were willing to be executed for spreading something they knew was a lie. Would you have done that?  Would you be willing to die for something you knew was a lie? 

Lisa, I’m glad you didn’t take offense at my cannibal comment. I was teasing you. As you seemed to believe passionately that if someone expresses an opinion about the goodness or lack of goodness about an action, that they had to hate the people who did it. So I will take your comment on the Eucharist also in the same teasing vein, but of course you know that the Eucharist retains all the accidents (appearances) of bread and wine, while it in substance becomes the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of OUr Lord Jesus Christ. It is Him Himself. It is not His dead body, his dead blood or anything of that sort. In John Chapter 6 in the Bible (which you do not accept as an authority), when Jesus first announced that unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you shall not have my Life within you, many of the people went home discouraged because they thought the same thing that you do. That Jesus expected them to feast on his body once it was dead. This is clearly not the case because after his resurrection when Mary Madeline wanted to touch Him, He said, “Don’t touch me now as I have not yet ascended to my Father.” But a week later he let Thomas touch his wounds. It’s a great mystery, but I receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ almost every day, and I can attest it is a supernatural grace. It is joy, a communion of two people, one human (me) and one Divine (Jesus). It is not cannibalism.
One of my struggles in communicating here is that everyone takes the most carnal interpretation of what I say and what the Church teaches. I told you. God thinks like an alien. He doesn’t think like we do. The flesh is of no value. It is the Spirt that gives life.

Edwin, Please don’t be offended. I value the time I’ve spent talking with you. But you are beating a dead horse. Scripture plainly condemns homosexual acts, just as it condemns gossip and scandal, murder and rape.
You seem to be struggling frantically to weasel out of that fact, to find flimsy excuses for why the plain meaning of the word is something else. This is just me talking to you as a friend, but you seem to be in the same dilemma I am in. I cannot serve both God and Mammon. That is, I cannot be with God and still be an idolater. Lord, knows I’ve tried. I love you God, but I love my sins. It’s like sitting on a fence. You are attracted to what the Church teaches. You are attracted to a relationship with Christ, but you fear if you plunge in, you’ll have to sacrifice something. Maybe something that seems impossible to let go of.  Just remember Jesus is gentle. He doesn’t bruise the reed or break it. You enter into relationship with him. Don’t worry about your Mammon. It’s there, it’s with you, Jesus will in time help you to let go of it. You won’t even notice when it goes away. It’s like a dog with a dirty old baseball. He won’t give you the ball. It’s a dirty old wet ball. But he wants to hold onto it. He caught it after all. But then the man distracts the dog, whistles or shows him another toy. The dog gets very excited and drops the ball to go after the new plaything. That is Jesus with us. When we are attached to something, He always gives us something better to play with. He says: “Fear not. It is I! Be still and know I am God!” We don’t need to be afraid. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

I am sorry but the fact someone dies for a belief system does not make it right or wrong,
it just means the person was convinced and dedicated. Suicide bombers in Japan…for the worship of the Emperor.

KKK fighting for white supremacists to protect the gene pool of white people…Samurai committing suicide if embarrasses for not being perfect or calling it saving of face,

the Buddhists that burn themselves up in public for a point they consider important.

Hey I think I mentioned how as Military person in the United States many of us died fighting for the protection of our freedoms, not the freedom of forcing others to believe as we do but to respect our rights as well as for others to respect ours.

The Catholics and Protestants in Ireland were giving their lives fighting each other for generations, the Muslims and Christians and Jews have had may wars giving their lives for their belief systems and their political views.

In some way they may not all be right so the Apostles were no different. Just part of a tribal warfare they were involved in, just like the rest.

StillBeleive,

The lives and deaths of the writers of the gospels are lost to history.  We know nothing of them really.  We certainly do not know if they died as martyrs.  As for the 12 apostles—they may have believed Jesus was god/messiah.  Does not make it true.  Lots of people have died for their beliefs—beliefs you would consider wrong.  Christians are not the only people who have died for their beleifs.

The RCC during the Crusades and Inqusition killed many Jews , Mulsims, Protestants for their faith/beliefs. Since these folks died for ther beliefs, you would say these all these beliefs are true???

And Christians have killed Christians—Catholics killed Protestants, Protestans killed Catholics—all in the name of some “true” belief.  Adherents of other faiths have also died for the beliefs—Hindus, Buddhists,Bahai, etc.  So dying for one’s beleifs automatically makes these beliefs true?

Just because people died for believing that Jesus was god/messiah, does not make it true that Jesus was god/messiah.

Susan Fox,

You are correct, I do not accept the gospels as any sort of authority on the issue of Jesus as god/messiah.  This quote about eating his flesh and drinking his bloos that John attributes to Jesus is fiction.  Its exceedingly doubtful that Jesus, an observant Jew, would say such thing.  It would have been anathema to his Judaism. Its oemthing the writer of John made up to concince the gullible that Jesus was something Jesus was not.   

I understand what RCs beleive about bread and wine.  I have many yrs of RC education.

And it is clear that you have bought intot he hatred of gay people that the RCC is teaching.,  The RCC is teaching hatred and bigotry and RCs are buying into it.  At least you should have the courage to admit to your bigotry and not try to minimize it.

No Susan your impression of my comments is completely wrong. It is my fault for not being good at expressing my thoughts clearly in writing. I am sorry.
I am not even supporting homosexuality. I am saying that people as dedicated to a concept like you are with no less enthusiasm, and no less dedication, disagree with you.
I am saying that even science disagrees with you and Truth itself is Gods and it truth disagrees with any interpretation of the Bible it is God showing us we need to seek and find and reinterpret what was not originally a truth.

The Bible says not to call anyone Father on earth for when you are born of the Spirit your father is God not man. The Roman Catholic interpretation is the same logic used to justify that the 5 passages the c Church interprets and homosexual really has nothing to do with homosexuality it has to do with the tradition of that time of males raping outsiders and their enemies to insult them and defile them.

But from the Protestant view that is a cop out. Just like you feel that the Christian Gay view is a cop out.

If you were through all I have been through in my life, coming from my self dedicated to fundamentalism, in my youth, to experience so much, all over the world, you would realize, that we often, only have a part of truth, and even at that, may find we are wrong, no matter how sure we were of a fact, we held to be sacred.

That is one of the most important reason for us to support, Freedom of Religion.

The ultimate truth is much closer to God than our finite, inferior dogma and doctrines. They are only guidelines to learning and experiencing what we are capable of ultimate truth.

Just like we are incapable of looking God in the Face because our brains and finite bodies could not endure all that at one time, so is our ability to know all truth about any subject.

It would be like throwing a huge volume of electricity into a small light bulb it would blow it up and destroy it. But just think about your life and how much information and technology has changed. What you knew as a kid or even dreamed of is no longer science fiction but every day experiences. What we did not even have a vocabulary for in our youth now is part of our everyday conversation. It was impossible to even think that pictures could be sent through the air and picked up on our portable tvs etc..Well sometimes our knowledge of Science has progressed but the layman’s knowledge of God has stayed in the Stone Age..
We could kill those in our youth that said pictures that move in real time, could be sent through the air for they were against Gods having a graven image in motion and we should not have any graven image of anything on earth or in heaven , now we live constantly communicating with each other with these live graven images.

How stupid would we look like now to think we could have been so stupid as to treat someone who knew more than me to kill them or feel that sure to want to support a silly concept we thought so important.

It would have been better to support the love one another as we want to be loved, or treat others as we would want to be treated.

If you want God’s love you would respect that and if you don’t want people preaching to you not to be straight you don’t need to preach to them to be straight.

I am sorry to be beating a dead horse, just hoping you are just playing dead and I might be able to resuscitate you some time, haha.
I will send the Roman Catholic explanation on Father the word to you and also a copy of why the passages against homosexuality is not the correct interpretation. Hopefully you will see the co-origination of thought and how the logic of both is identical.

Again my only message is not doctrine or dogma but what our Military has done from the beginning of our existence as a Nation…they died for us to have freedom of Religion and can only have that if we also are free not to believe.

So even if you think homosexuality is wrong they have a right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness..if homosexuality is part of their happiness it is their right for you to leave them alone.

If we are only looking at the Christian movement and Christian world, I defy you to find an example of any Christian organization that does not pray for guidance from Jesus Christ their Master for wisdom and knowledge and direction to do His will..even the KKK and often we saw that in the Nazi world, and as well the Reformation leaders and followers. Just Like you…so you are arrogant enough to think you have the only truth because you have the Will of God and the only true dogma and doctrine because some celibate male told you how to interpret the Word of God in your language.
Even The King James Bible ....King James was a homosexual, and only married and had children to satisfy the requirements of the Monarchy ..
That is the goodness of having freedom of religion because none of us want to be forced to believe any one of these belief systems even the ones in Christianity, if we are Christian.
Muslims and Jews have the same dedication and illusions of themselves having the same truth. How stupid do we have to be not to understand or have respect for that concept???

It is absolutely moronic in my mind to be so naive as an adult. But brain washing have through history made some intelligent people kill themselves in masses to meet the alien on the day they choose to believe the day was there.

Jones town was another example…etc etc etc…how stupid we have all the historical evidence of the ignorance of the fanatics..why do you choose to project your view on others that are really not interested in your vies. Yes preach to those who see your example and desire to know your views.

I think that the most ignorant comment made here is that only the Roman Catholic Church has the key to classify any act as immoral and no one else has God’s incite or understanding to make those classifications. Hey the ones that differ open their studies and research up with the same prayer to the same God with the same Apostles Creed to support their research and yet come up with variations on the truth of their morality. I am talking now of Christian views on Homosexuality.

In case those who disagree do not know it was Galileo that thought out of the box and was killed for his spreading truth that changed the faulty views of the Christian Roman Catholic leadership’s interpretation of how to interpret Gods use of the word 4 corners of the earth…not to mean the earth was a square platform.

Thus mutual respect for concepts that are out of the box are a requirement for Christian Maturity. We should learn not to kill the messenger but maybe do more research to understand and classify the message.

Susan said I am beating a dead horse but in this one instance I have a lot of people on here siding with me though they openly disagree with my views on other things. Nothing wrong with that.

It was the founding fathers that developed the Constitution and based it on the Golden Rule of our mutual faith ...but if you don’t understand the mutual respect you are no better than the Pharisees that Christ condemned ...the politicians that had eyes and could not see and ears but could not hear…yes they could quote the Bible but did not understand it’s meaning.

Those that take the Bible Literately do not necessarily take it seriously. They pick points out like is done here, only to red herring and chase us away from dealing with the real problems of society.

Hey no problem if you believe homosexuality is a sin, it probably is for you personally that may be an absolute truth…you may be a diabetic and yes it is a sin to consume foods to contribute to your lack of health.

But don’t feed me your diet..As an American I respect your diet and your beliefs for you not necessarily for me. The points above are immoral for you but not necessarily for your other brothers and sisters in Christ, nor for non believers. IMO

Until you can truthfully say Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and know the meaning of it..I doubt you have the meaning of what is moral and what is not.

It is very strange Susan Fox, I have had many real friends that were Priests and never had any of them with the view you have nor the motivation to force their view on me like you seem to.

It was not part of their mission to turn me into a plastic Barbie Roman Catholic doll. We think for ourselves, and respect that in others. I am sure they probably had the same view as you do on homosexuality. But not even all Roman Catholics believe the same way you do about it.

Well obviously all Roman Catholics don’t believe the same for all for some choose to be celibate and others choose to marry so that is obvious.

Paul said I wish all could be like him and not marry..haha but that would be great there would be no followers of Paul 2000 yrs if they had followed his wishes. Maybe you did not read that in your Bible.

Edwin,
Re: your kind peace making comment. I just had a great thought: The lesbian couple still had the right to a same sex wedding cake. They just had to make it themselves! Then the baker would be allowed to pursue his right to life, liberty the pursuit of happiness without having to make the cake. Everyone goes home happy. The end. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com
P.S. I lied. I have one more thing to say. My son has the same concept of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as the lesbian couple. He believes that if I don’t go to the store and buy the kind of milk he drinks then I am abrogating his rights. (He can’t drink the kind of milk his father and I drink. )He’s 25, lives at home, has money, and access to a car.

You know I do admire to some extent that someone and even the majority believed that the earth had to be flat because God talked about all 4 corners of the earth.

But It was not God’s truth that was wrong, so when you claim you would rather believe God’s truth you better be sure you are not guilty of the flat earth interpretation vs God’s truth which is not the earth is Flat man’s lack of understanding.

Someone that honored the commandments during Galileo’s time would have have thought well if I were him I would want to rely on his personal research and wisdom, which is different than mine.

so maybe he does have a point, but I don’t and am not interested enough to find out why, he believes the way he does.

so I will just continue to be confident in my own opinion on that subject.

God did say 4 corners.

That is the ( Do unto others and you would have them do unto you) Mutual respect and given the benefit that others had different and sometimes superior experiences to make those changes to what God meant and prospective of who and why He said it that way.

What is the Roman Catholic view of the Protestants claiming that calling a priest Father is not Biblical, because Jesus said not to call anyone father other than your Father which is in Heave.

See their logic and it is no different than what the Christian Theologians, from Harvard, a highly held educational institution says about the passages in the Bible commonly related to homosexuality, he claims is in error.

This is just a partial you can look the entire discourse yourself.
Call No Man “Father”? Call No Man “Father”?
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Many Protestants claim that when Catholics address priests as “father,” they are engaging in an unbiblical practice that Jesus forbade: “Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven” (Matt. 23:9).
In his tract 10 Reasons Why I Am Not a Roman Catholic, Fundamentalist anti-Catholic writer Donald Maconaghie quotes this passage as support for his charge that “the papacy is a hoax.”
Bill Jackson, another Fundamentalist who runs a full-time anti-Catholic organization, says in his book Christian’s Guide To Roman Catholicism that a “study of Matthew 23:9 reveals that Jesus was talking about being called father as a title of religious superiority . . . [which is] the basis for the [Catholic] hierarchy” (53).
How should Catholics respond to such objections?

The Answer
To understand why the charge does not work, one must first understand the use of the word “father” in reference to our earthly fathers. No one would deny a little girl the opportunity to tell someone that she loves her father. Common sense tells us that Jesus wasn’t forbidding this type of use of the word “father.”
In fact, to forbid it would rob the address “Father” of its meaning when applied to God, for there would no longer be any earthly counterpart for the analogy of divine Fatherhood. The concept of God’s role as Father would be meaningless if we obliterated the concept of earthly fatherhood.
But in the Bible the concept of fatherhood is not restricted to just our earthly fathers and God. It is used to refer to people other than biological or legal fathers, and is used as a sign of respect to those with whom we have a special relationship.
For example, Joseph tells his brothers of a special fatherly relationship God had given him with the king of Egypt: “So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt” (Gen. 45:8).
Job indicates he played a fatherly role with the less fortunate: “I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know” (Job 29:16). And God himself declares that he will give a fatherly role to Eliakim, the steward of the house of David: “In that day I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah . . . and I will clothe him with [a] robe, and will bind [a] girdle on him, and will commit . . . authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah” (Is. 22:20–21).
This type of fatherhood not only applies to those who are wise counselors (like Joseph) or benefactors (like Job) or both (like Eliakim), it also applies to those who have a fatherly spiritual relationship with one. For example, Elisha cries, “My father, my father!” to Elijah as the latter is carried up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kgs. 2:12). Later, Elisha himself is called a father by the king of Israel (2 Kgs. 6:21).

A Change with the New Testament?
Some Fundamentalists argue that this usage changed with the New Testament—that while it may have been permissible to call certain men “father” in the Old Testament, since the time of Christ, it’s no longer allowed. This argument fails for several reasons.
First, as we’ve seen, the imperative “call no man father” does not apply to one’s biological father. It also doesn’t exclude calling one’s ancestors “father,” as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to “our father Abraham,” or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of “our father Isaac.”
Second, there are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term “father” being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker. There are, in fact, so many uses of “father” in the New Testament, that the Fundamentalist interpretation of Matthew 23 (and the objection to Catholics calling priests “father”) must be wrong, as we shall see.
Third, a careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, “But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ” (Matt. 23:8–10).
The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term “teacher,” in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth” (1 Tim. 2:7); “For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher” (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers” (1 Cor. 12:28); and “his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers” (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as “teachers.”
Fundamentalists themselves slip up on this point by calling all sorts of people “doctor,” for example, medical doctors, as well as professors and scientists who have Ph.D. degrees (i.e., doctorates). What they fail to realize is that “doctor” is simply the Latin word for “teacher.” Even “Mister” and “Mistress” (“Mrs.”) are forms of the word “master,” also mentioned by Jesus. So if his words in Matthew 23 were meant to be taken literally, Fundamentalists would be just as guilty for using the word “teacher” and “doctor” and “mister” as Catholics for saying “father.” But clearly, that would be a misunderstanding of Christ’s words.

So What Did Jesus Mean?
Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love “the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men” (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their grasping after marks of status and prestige.
He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.
Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell” (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15). We are all subject to “the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16).
Since Jesus is demonstrably using hyperbole when he says not to call anyone our father—else we would not be able to refer to our earthly fathers as such—we must read his words carefully and with sensitivity to the presence of hyperbole if we wish to understand what he is saying.
Jesus is not forbidding us to call men “fathers” who actually are such—either literally or spiritually. (See below on the apostolic example of spiritual fatherhood.) To refer to such people as fathers is only to acknowledge the truth, and Jesus is not against that. He is warning people against inaccurately attributing fatherhood—or a particular kind or degree of fatherhood—to those who do not have it.
As the apostolic example shows, some individuals genuinely do have a spiritual fatherhood, meaning that they can be referred to as spiritual fathers. What must not be done is to confuse their form of spiritual paternity with that of God. Ultimately, God is our supreme protector, provider, and instructor. Correspondingly, it is wrong to view any individual other than God as having these roles.
Throughout the world, some people have been tempted to look upon religious leaders who are mere mortals as if they were an individual’s supreme source of spiritual instruction, nourishment, and protection. The tendency to turn mere men into “gurus” is worldwide.
This was also a temptation in the Jewish world of Jesus’ day, when famous rabbinical leaders, especially those who founded important schools, such as Hillel and Shammai, were highly exalted by their disciples. It is this elevation of an individual man—the formation of a “cult of personality” around him—of which Jesus is speaking when he warns against attributing to someone an undue role as master, father, or teacher.
He is not forbidding the perfunctory use of honorifics nor forbidding us to recognize that the person does have a role as a spiritual father and teacher. The example of his own apostles shows us that.

The Apostles Show the Way
The New Testament is filled with examples of and references to spiritual father-son and father-child relationships. Many people are not aware just how common these are, so it is worth quoting some of them here.
Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child: “Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ” (1 Cor. 4:17); “To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (1 Tim. 1:2); “To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as “teachers.”
Fundamentalists themselves slip up on this point by calling all sorts of people “doctor,” for example, medical doctors, as well as professors and scientists who have Ph.D. degrees (i.e., doctorates). What they fail to realize is that “doctor” is simply the Latin word for “teacher.” Even “Mister” and “Mistress” (“Mrs.”) are forms of the word “master,” also mentioned by Jesus. So if his words in Matthew 23 were meant to be taken literally, Fundamentalists would be just as guilty for using the word “teacher” and “doctor” and “mister” as Catholics for saying “father.” But clearly, that would be a misunderstanding of Christ’s words.

So What Did Jesus Mean?
Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love “the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men” (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their grasping after marks of status and prestige.
He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.
Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell” (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15). We are all subject to “the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16).
Since Jesus is demonstrably using hyperbole when he says not to call anyone our father—else we would not be able to refer to our earthly fathers as such—we must read his words carefully and with sensitivity to the presence of hyperbole if we wish to understand what he is saying.
Jesus is not forbidding us to call men “fathers” who actually are such—either literally or spiritually. (See below on the apostolic example of spiritual fatherhood.) To refer to such people as fathers is only to acknowledge the truth, and Jesus is not against that. He is warning people against inaccurately attributing fatherhood—or a particular kind or degree of fatherhood—to those who do not have it.
As the apostolic example shows, some individuals genuinely do have a spiritual fatherhood, meaning that they can be referred to as spiritual fathers. What must not be done is to confuse their form of spiritual paternity with that of God. Ultimately, God is our supreme protector, provider, and instructor. Correspondingly, it is wrong to view any individual other than God as having these roles.
Throughout the world, some people have been tempted to look upon religious leaders who are mere mortals as if they were an individual’s supreme source of spiritual instruction, nourishment, and protection. The tendency to turn mere men into “gurus” is worldwide.
This was also a temptation in the Jewish world of Jesus’ day, when famous rabbinical leaders, especially those who founded important schools, such as Hillel and Shammai, were highly exalted by their disciples. It is this elevation of an individual man—the formation of a “cult of personality” around him—of which Jesus is speaking when he warns against attributing to someone an undue role as master, father, or teacher.
He is not forbidding the perfunctory use of honorifics nor forbidding us to recognize that the person does have a role as a spiritual father and teacher. The example of his own apostles shows us that.

sUSAN,

If the baker does not want to serve the public at large, if he wants to discriminate based upon his own prejudices then he should not be in business.  The purpose of opening a shop, like a bakery is to serve the public at large.

Margaret,

Audiness does not have the right to refuse customers based on who the customer is—black, Asian, Jewish, etc.  That was a big part of the Civil Rights Movement.  Federal and state laws prohibit businesses from refusing service to customers based on race, religion, national origin, etc.  A business can refuse service if a customer is being disruptive in the store, being a threat to public health (not wearing shirt and shoes, bringin in a pet animal).

The followers of Hillel and Shammai did not form a cult of personlity around these teachers.  And ther roles as teachers were NOT “undue”.  they were both brilliant teachers whose teaching are still discused and debated today within Judaism.

If any group of followers is guilty of formin a cult of personlity, attributing an undue role to someone—it is christians, who without any evidence or justifcation have elevated the man Jesus to the undue role of god/messiah.  Perhaps Jesus was warning his followers not to give in fiction and elevate him to the undue role of god/messiah.

a stalemate

Edwin,

While I generally agree with your position in this dicussion, I do have to disgaree stronlgy with one point.

You say above, “That is the goodness of having freedom of religion because none of us want to be forced to believe any one of these belief systems even the ones in Christianity, if we are Christian. Muslims and Jews have the same dedication and illusions of themselves having the same truth”

Regarding Jews, your statement is incorrect.  Judaism sees itself as A path to God, NOT as the only path to God.  Judaims does not seek converts. Judaism does not seek to impose it teachings upon non-Jews.  If one is meant by God to be a Jew, then one is a Jew. Also, in Judaism, unlike RCism, there is no central authority, there are no central dogmas or doctrines.  Jews are free to believe as they wish re any and every aspect of scripture, theology, spirituality, etc.  Jews are free to question everything.  Jews are “Israel” (the God-wrestlers).  Rabbis, teach, put ideas out for consideration and discussion. They do not impose dogma or doctrine.  So in this regard, please do not lump Jews together with other faith traditions.

For those Americans that persecute the homosexuals, something you may not be aware of because of your lack of exposure, but not I as a Chaplain;s assistant thinking of our military forces.

We fight for freedom from people who think they have a right to persecute those of us that may be different. That is not the freedom they fight for. They fight for freedom of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

If you only knew how many gay medics and gay men and women have thrown their selves on grandees to save the lives of their buddies or gave their lives to support our freedoms as well as their own not concerned what or if any were of or not of any religion. They just gave their lives for their fellow American Humans.

Seems we should all honor that in the Name of our Various faiths or lack of faith an anything but our fellow men and women who also died for us.
Something you might want to ask your husband about Susan Fox…If he were in combat he probably knew some of the don’t ask don’t tell who had to hide their true self for fear of being ridiculed and abused.
Just for their Biology and Psychology and sexual orientation.

Sorry Lisa for my lack of ability to write clear statements. Good to have someone criticize them to let me know what, and how I say things that are in contrast to my meaning.
No I did not mean that all religions are equal in anything but people’s dedication to their belief systems. Meaning none of us what someone from another belief system to control what and who I believe in. That is the Freedom we need to respect for ourselves as well as for others. Mutual respect
Hope this is more clear. Sorry if my words inferred other than that.

I think a great metaphor for democracy and freedom would be the freeway we drive on.
1. we must follow the rules for fluid flow of traffic, allowing people the freedom to drive and end up anyway unencumbered. 
2. but it is only a freeway, if we respect the rights of others on the road too.
3. If I stop traffic to preach my love of a Chevy saves gas and wear and tare on the road and think I need to convert every driver to drive the same car..traffic would not move at all.
4. Mutual respect is a great part of freedom. Don’t get that confused with Politically Correct, because that means say things in new ways that uses new words to cover up the actual words you mean so it won’t make someone uncomfortable.
That means to lie when everyone knows the original word you were referring to. That is politics nothing is good about a lie…or bearing false witness..weather you are a religious person or an atheist scientist.

5. Well religion and lack of religion ( seems to me lack of religion just means you do not trust the vocabulary and religious dogma and literature of religion) are merely vehicles to how we deal with life and our journey through maturity and how we identify who, what and why we are, as well as what we expect to be in the future. Therefore I see religion as a spiritual vehicle transporting us through life.

6. God is Omnipresent and Omnipotent so That Energy, what the Old Testament calls (The I AM)  influences us as to which vehicle to choose to be inspired by to serve that energy here on earth.

Well hope this is not too abstract haha but our bodies, and minds are all different just like the social groups we are nurtured by and our individual cultures we are exposed to. To think any of them are the superior or one and only is extremely egocentric.

And yes animals may fight over territory and one group of ants may not be any different than another group of ants, but when they get together they try to kill each other so one does not take over the other’s territory and food sources.

Tribal and gang mentality do the same thing, so if we are not interested in being no different than tribal and gang or ant mentality we need to all get along and interact with the rules of freedom and mutual respect. Anything else is destructive to every one of us. In my opinion. Hope this means something to someone haha…it means a lot to me.

For those of us that think we have all the answers to what the Bible says and what is considered moral or immoral.
The Bible during Moses time said not to have any graven image of anything on earth of in heaven, not to bow down to them etc….

So if we were to go back in time and show television, or photography or sculpture or art work or even cell phones they would probably be considered immoral, illegal and against God and what the sacred books require of us.

It is not the books we worship but the energy behind the writings. We must evolve from the limitations of vocabulary and knowledge at the time many ancients texts were written.

This is besides not being to understand what was written because the traditions and everything was different then and even the people’s use of the words and understanding of the words was different.

Just something to think about that may not have entered into your minds, being unaware of what may have been different when we judge most things according to what we are now experiencing not knowing exactly what was being experienced thousands of yrs ago.

For the artists thoughts…black and white varies according the intensity of the background they are displayed on. We all live in illusions that we depend on for our truth when in actuality our truth may be far from reality. Just study the sites that show illusions you might be surprised.

well guess my post on the harvard theologeon did not clear to post here, sorry…it was informative and identified the specific facts that explained how the 5 references to homosexuality could possibly have been misinterpreted, due to new findings and writings found to show a realistic view of the traditions and how words were used during that period of history.

I think we need to also consider that freedom of speech means we are also accountable for what we say.

That also means that if you openly judge someone, for their not conforming to your views, and what you believe, weather or not they need your view, and it causes them to end their life, you will be judged for their demise.
It is as I have said before…do unto others and you would have them do unto you…strange that Christians, often follow this rule less frequently than even non believers. They are more focused on preaching their view than following what they are preaching. IMHO
Again easier to worry about the splinter in your neighbors eye, then deal with the log in our own eye…so again to repeat..we have eyes and can not see and ears and do not hear…strange how these basic principles were not different 2000 yrs ago than today. Strange also we do not seem to learn what Christ criticized the Scribes and Pharisees for. haha..I just do not understand this.

Ok Susan Fox lets try it this way. Your morality that God taught you.

If you were not in a Freedom of Religion Country Your morality would not be allowed to be practice. You don’t have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You might have to cover your head with a Burqa, and cover your body down to your feet.

You might have to kill your wife if you were a husband or brother or family member who have morals that are broken by her without even being sure she broke any.

In ancient Japan they had to commit suicide, Seppuku or slit your stomach with a sward in public if you did something immoral.

You might have to pray at certain times of day and only face in a certain direction, and lay on the floor to do it in a way defined by the church..

If you lived in India under certain circumstances you might have to circumcise your daughter to keep her from enjoying sexual activity.

You may have to marry prior to puberty.

You may be killed if you had opposing views and you expressed them which conflicted with the morality of the raining monarchy.

You may not be able to cook foods the way you want or eat what you want. Some have to keep double kitchens in a kosher way which would require you to keep separate sets of cooking utensils and dishes and knives etc..

.And you would not be able to speak about anything you disagree with. You would be required to follow any wishes your husband had weather or not if you disagreed in any way with these wishes. ]

Anything other than that would be considered immoral.

That is their freeway and how they go about their following their Gods will and the morality that God gave them to follow.

Freedom of religion here in the USA says we are free to follow a lot of this, but not to legislate these various moral beliefs.

Our measuring stick is ( Does it interfere with the Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness?) if not it is your choice. That is the law of the land and you may not infringe on the rights of others or dictate the morality of others in what You think God’s will is.

So preaching your morality is perfectly required in your own religion, that is fine for those in your choice of Church, not in the freeway of mankind in public here in the USA>

you must be so pleased that the laws of God others consider are not forced on you. You must do the same for those of differing moral views as well. IMO
Does this explain in a simple way that you can understand???
God’s view of Morality differs in each religion where we are free to choose what religion we choose to follow or even not follow.

Edwin,

Again, I agree with your general postions on isues. 
But again you make an inaccurate statement about Judaism.  You stated, “
You may not be able to cook foods the way you want or eat what you want. Some have to keep double kitchens in a kosher way which would require you to keep separate sets of cooking utensils and dishes and knives etc..”

NO nation and certainly not Israel, forces Jews to keep kosher, maintain two kitchens, etc.  Such things are NOT forced upon Jews by politicians or national laws.  If Jews keep kosher, maintain two kitchens, etc, that is a matter of voluntary personal observance.  Please do not lump Judaism or Isarel into general discussions about mstions that deny freedom of religion.

In isarel, all are free to practice their faiths, the only rule is that no faith may actively seek converts.  Which in israel is a sensible rule—given that it is a crossroads of powerful tensions among Jews, Christains and Mulsims.  But the nation of Israel does not deny freedom of religion.

No sorry on the Kosher not being clear. I was only relating to,the diversity of beliefs on how to serve God in a moral way. Diversity, and yes sorry, you may not have been persecuted for not doing the cooking kosher thing but it is a variation that disciplines you in different ways for God.
I do wonder if you are an orthodox sects of Judaism, if it is not mandatory. I do have kosher co workers and friends but they are voluntary.
I apologize if I misrepresented you. Of course my point was diversity,yet some traditions are required of die.

I don’t know why I think different than most, but to me I see the Bible in this way.
The Old testament is the (Tho shalt not) book
The New Testament is the ( Tho shalt) book
Seems if you are busy doing the tho shalts you have no time for performing the tho shalt nots.
Instead of running around criticizing what you think people are doing, (having nothing to do with people harming others) like consenting adults can do what they want as Americans as believers or non believers as long as they do not harm anyone, or take advantage of someone against their will, or against a victim that is not capable of consenting.

So yes if you see someone hurting a victim do something about it or say something otherwise it is none of your business.

Womens rights are still as in jeopardy now as gay rights.

My example of the positive contributions of tho shalt over tho shalt nots of this world.
Lets take the cake baker…so it is against his view for two women getting married..
So it is less of a sin to serve them, two people who choose to be each others help mate through life in love and caring and nurturing each other, and even possibly adopting a throw away kid made by a heterosexual act than to sell you a cake if you are a diabetic and slowly killing yourself and ruining you body which is the Vessel of Christ? What??? I do not get it..
If we choose Christ’s way we will take the commandments as He did and not put it into the tho shalt not but how if we do the tho shalts we are in His good standing.
He said: You have heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I (I) tell you if someone hits you on the left cheek, turn to him the right.
When did we stop preaching the Bible and not practicing it??? In that ye have done it unto the least of these people you have done it unto me?  Why can we not practice this message vs being so worried about the splinter and neglect or log ..??? I don’t get it susan fox I don’t get it..

Edwin,

Judaism is a voluntary thing.  Keeping kosher is a voluntary thing.  It is never matter of any nation’s law.  For Orthodox Jews, yes, keeping kosher is always part of that movement within judaism.  But again, being an Jew Orthodox is not forced upon anyone by any nation or any national law.

And I am sorry you think of the Hebrew scriptures only as a book “thou shalt not”.  Perhaps you are not very familiar with that part of scripture.  Hebrew scripture is much much more than “thou shalt not”.  It is a complex, nuanced, broad set of writings containing many many messages—including an overarching message of God’s love.  And of course, Jesus’ teaching came straight from Torah.  Everything, including the Beatitudes, all the parables—all are messages straight from Hebrew scripture.  Jesus said nothing new, he was teaching straight from his tradition-Judaism.

Too often Christianity has divorced Jesus from his tradition, too often the message of Christainity is that jesus was set apart form his tradition, above it, different than other Jews.  All that is inaccurate and very off-base.

Re: ” So preaching your morality is perfectly required in your own religion, that is fine for those in your choice of Church, not in the freeway of mankind in public here in the USA>
you must be so pleased that the laws of God others consider are not forced on you. You must do the same for those of differing moral views as well.”
Edwin on this blog we are not on the “freeway of mankind,” we are on a Roman Catholic web page, graciously allowing you to state your views even though they are often very different than our own. Everything you say supports the Christian bakers right to practice their religion in a country that does allow freedom of religion. The Oregon Equality Act has not been tested by the Supreme Court. It is not the law of the land. We don’t have to wear berkas here, and we don’t have to sell cakes to lesbians if we don’t want to. If the Supreme Court or the state of Oregon were to prosecute the Christian baker, then Freedom of Religion is done in this country. Lisa, Christian businesses have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness as well. Freedom of religion is not restricted to individuals. Individuals run businesses. What if you owned a rental and didn’t want to rent to a heterosexual couple who told you they hated gays, maybe they were actively involved in depriving gays of their rights? Would you do it anyway, rent to them? You are in the business of renting property. Do you leave your opinions aside when it comes to who you rent to? What if the couple was actively involved in harming gay rights? God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Susan Yes you are right this site is gracious to let me view my POV.
You are just not hearing my view, because it is not at all Anti Catholic. The points I have made were exclusively to illustrate:
1. That you start with the Premise you have Gods morality is your view only.
2. You consider if it goes against your Churches view in a public business then you are required not to contribute to it.
3. I never gave you my personal religious view. It is not a part of the conversation. I gave you what I thought was the American responsibility on how to keep America Free from being required to have one Religious view. I give you this information as someone that was in the USMC to fight for that freedom.
4. this not only protects homosexuals, but heterosexuals, handicapped, atheists, all religions including the Roman Catholic, women, all races, and yes should be appropriate to be put on a Roman Catholic discussion.
5. You choose to use the illustrations of how other religions differ in views of God, I might be putting out there as my opinion, but no, I put it out there to illustrate everyone with different views considers their view the inspired true will and view of God. Many that differ also pray the same prayers, especially prior to coming up with their conclusions of what God said and how to interpret or read the meaning of the words of the same Bible.
6. You are the one that made the erroneous points that:
a. only homosexuals support homosexuality.
b. homosexuals are all promiscuous as if they were the only ones..
c. there is no evidence that homosexuality is in any way related to genetics.
d. God commissioned you to go unto all the world and preach your message so that was license to push your view on those of us that disagree with the Baker.
e. I sent you the Harvard Theologians studies, on why homosexuality,, was not what the Roman Catholic view is, to all Christians. and why.

Of course the post was not accepted on this site because it might be spam, or maybe copywriter legality, I don’t know, but that is ok. I also sent it to you personally.

What I did not tell you, is I and a fellow Military friend went to purchase a house in California in the 80s. We were combining our GI Bill in order to invest in a house and liked this one.

The Real Estate lady refused to sell it to us, because she feared we might be gay.

We did not get a good answer why we did not get the purchase so complained to the congressman. We had the property the next week, and the agent was fired.

The sale could not be based on weather or not what she felt two males were gay or not you can not discriminate. Also it was only her opinion that we might be gay.

haha Didn’t any one ever experience two same gender people investing before??? haha without sex being projected into the relationship of the purchasers??? I still can not believe that that happened. haha..

Susan Fox:

You argue the slippery slope and you argue the same things that bigots in the south argued re racial integration. so the idea that a a budiness that serves the public is free is to refuse service based on bigotry and prejudice just does not fly. What you are doing is supporting bigotry, hatred, intolerance and discrimination based on an iaccurate understanding of freedom of religion.  And this message of hatred, bigotry, intolerance & discrimination is unfortunatley the main message of the RCC today.  Its sad and pathethic that RCs buy into such nonsense. 

You do know that our freedoms are not absolute, right?  All freedoms are subject to regulation, including freedom of religion.  One cannot do just anything and claim freedom of religion. 

Also, the law in question IS the law in Oregon where this baker does business.  It is a valid law that the baker must abide by.  The US Supreme Court does NOT have to decide on very law for a law to be valid.  so your arguement there is also inaccurate and shows a total misunderstanding of our Constitution and how our legal system works in the US.

Also, this is NOT a a “Roman Catholic” web site.  it is a website owned and maintained by EWTN—which is US non-profit organization.  It does not speak for the RCC and is not part of the Vatican or the Holy See.  It espouses its interpretation of what RCism is about.  It a publication with its own extremist opinions and right-wing agenda.

Well my confusion come in when I hear Susan Fox and other RC Catholic complaining about being picked on when they are picking on homosexuals? Don’t they understand the judge not lest ye be judged…quote from their Bible?
How can they not understand the do unto others as they would want others to do unto them?
Hey lets be fair here,...

all Roman Catholics do not do this.

.I watch the Roman Catholic priests, on TV having wonderful, discussions, with Rabbi’s, and Christian Ministers, and they are so very inspiring, but obviously, these are intelligent, and mature in their faith, inspired Church leaders.

I don’t understand how there can be the opposite out there so verbal in opposition, that think they are doing the job of God, when they are turning the world against their religion, by their ignorance, and evangelizing..

.I use that word on purpose, because my family members were evangelizing atheists so very familiar with the word. 

That is what bothers me and why I keep on this subject. I hate
Roman Catholics destroying their Faith and the faithful of their group by representing such tribal warfare, against truth and love and world peace.

I hate those that actually promote bullying of others by presenting viewpoints in a free country that does not tolerate people of differing viewpoints that have a perfect right to be there and be treated as they are. Not even following the basic abc’s of their own faith…haha not even being able to see it themselves..

It literately blows my shallow mind. haha

You Know Susan Fox, I spent a lot of time in my youth in the 40s and 50s with my Grandmother. She was the only Christian in the family.

Fortunately for me, she was also over a hundred lbs overweight as was my other Grandmother both I loved very deeply.

They were Beautiful people and well liked by many but also were persecuted by those that did not know her, by people on the street etc in stores and on buses etc..

.That is where I first came to the rescue of those being treated badly by other people that did not even know them.

Just Remember the Words of Christ when He said ” If you have done it unto the LEAST of them you have done it unto Me” That is the temp let to measure anything you say to or about anyone else. Look up before you judge and then also think about what you are going to be judged for that may be even worse than what your judging.

Remember ; Jesus also said if you have Hate in your heart for others it is as if you had murdered them. That hate when passed on has often rippled through groups to end up causing death if you think about it..it is the bullying effect.
IMO

susan fox,

The good here is are these things:

thiose of us who stand for human dignity, love, equality, who are not bound by illogial and irrational fear, prejudice, hatred, will prevail.  The US supreme Court will affirm that gay American have equal rights under the 14th Amendment.

The oppostion to same-sex marriage will literally die out—the older generation that is bound by illogical and irrational prejudices will leave the scene.  The younger generation that satnds firm for equality will prevail.

By continuing to proclaimm its message of hate, bigotry, discrimination and prejudice against gay people (and women), the RCC will make itself into a small irrelevant sect.  It will render itself powerless.  The RCC is literally sowing the seeds of its own destruction.

In searching for an update on this case, I came across this site & read thru the comments. I am shocked at the ignorance displayed here by some.

Those who side with the gay couple & tout “freedom of religion” are so beyond ignorant that it’s disturbing. Freedom of religion refers to the GOVERNMENT making a law on establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof.  The bakery is NOT the government!

Freedom of Religion very clearly protects the bakery as they have the right to exercise their religious beliefs in private AND public.  What sort of mental gymnastics do some of you partake in to conclude that only the gay couple’s beliefs should be recognized?  The gay couple has the right to take their business elsewhere.

Should Christians be able to go into a restaurant or club owned by Atheists and demand they play Christian music?

Should Christians be able to go into an adult bookstore & demand they have Bibles available?

What is wrong w/you people? “Deluded” comes to mind.  And some actually wonder “why” there’s opposition to gay marriage.  It was once thought preposterous that there would be discrimination lawsuits against pastors refusing to marry gay couples. How can anyone not see that will most certainly be the case?

Edwin - I hate to break it to you but you’re very confused on what it is you fought for in the military. Perhaps you should spend more time educating yourself on the basic principles of your country instead of writing comments the size of ‘War and Peace’.

Dear Edwin
Re:  a. only homosexuals support homosexuality.
I never said that I don’t believe that, and I have asked you to please explain why you think I said that.
b. homosexuals are all promiscuous as if they were the only ones..
Edwin, you know that both publicly and privately I have repeatedly stated that promiscuous behavior by heterosexuals is condemned by the church. There has been no comparison on my part. I have repeatedly stated that sex outside of marriage by anyone regardless of their orientation is considered a sin in the Catholic Church. We don’t discriminate against homosexual sins. We are trying to help people overcome all types of sin. Lusting in your heart for a person is a sin as well as—I gave you the scriptural references: Matthew chapter 5,6 & 7. Some homosexuals are promiscuous. Maybe some are not. But regardless the act is a sin whether it is entered into once or hundreds of times. Any sex outside marriage is a sin.
c. there is no evidence that homosexuality is in any way related to genetics.
Edwin, I don’t believe the modern psychiatry or Harvard or any of these sources. They are trying to convince the little ones who are gay that sin is okay. It isn’t. They are hurting gay people by lying to them. This is not love. If I were an alcoholic, and you said it’s fine, I accept you as such, go ahead and drink. Here’s some wine. You would be killing me!
d. God commissioned you to go unto all the world and preach your message so that was license to push your view on those of us that disagree with the Baker.
The baker did not push his views on the gay couple. It was passive resistance. He simply refused to put a same sex couple on a cake. And Lisa, he didn’t refuse to bake a cake for the couple. He simply refused to put the message on the cake they wanted. To take that action would have violated his religious freedom. The gay couple are free to go to another baker or bake the cake themselves. Their rights have not been abrogated.
e. I sent you the Harvard Theologians studies, on why homosexuality,, was not what the Roman Catholic view is, to all Christians. and why.
I DON’T BELIEVE THE HARVARD THEOLOGIANS STUDY.
LISA,  The courts in ORegon have not determined whether the Oregon Equality Act has been violated, but if they do, the baker would have the right to take it to the Supreme Court. I believe the Oregon Equality Act is contrary to the U.S. Constitution and our first amendment rights. If the Oregon baker is prosecuted then the state of ORegon will be impeding the free exercise of religion because it is an undeniable fact that the Catholic Church and I guess some Christians such as the baker in the story believe that homosexuality is a disorder. That will never change, and don’t cite all the priests and nuns you met who said the opposite, or lived the opposite. They are slowly being weeded out of the Church. Some have actually been excommunicated, and defrocked. I know some of them personally. We are cleaning house. Lisa our rights are not something that the government can let us have some of it. The right to life is absolute. The government can’t kill you. The right to bear arms is absolute, though they have regulated that to death. The right to religion is absolute unless your religion takes away some of our other fundamental rights like the right to life. But there is no fundamental right to have a same sex couple on your wedding cake, if the baker doesn’t feel like baking it. He even has the right to be lazy. He could have told the couple he didn’t have time! You can get your cake somewhere else. It is childish to say only that baker must abrogate his rights to freedom of religion so I can have my cake and eat it too. As I mentioned, my 25 year old son has the same attitude: how dare I not buy milk for a grown man who can buy his own milk.
Edwin, there is nothing wrong with two men or two women owning a house together, but even Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan told President Barack Obama that it is difficult to have realtors enforce federal law. It’s not realtors’ job to enforce federal law. It is the government’s job. That is the reason our economy is in the tank. The federal government under Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton forced banks to lend to people (of color) who could not repay the loan. (Anti-red lining) That drove up housing prices to abnormal levels, and then the market tanked taking the rest of the economy with it.

Lisa, EWTN for us Catholics is more Catholic than our bishops have been in the last several decades. We have relied on them to tell us the truth about our faith, while our local pastors and bishops have often shirked the job. You should read Raymond Arroyo’s book on Mother Angelica. The American Catholic bishops attempted to take over the television station, and Mother Angelica resigned from the EWTN board in order to prevent that from happening. The group of bishops we had at that time would have destroyed the television station, but by removing herself from leadership, they can’t touch it. The laity run it. Sometimes the laity are more Catholic than priests and bishops. Sometimes I have to remind myself that there were great and holy bishops in our church history and great and holy priests because the example we had in the last 50 years wasn’t so good. It is a normal for this to happen in history. The Church has entirely disappeared in Northern Africa and the Middle East, and Jesus warned them in the book of Revelation that if you did not remain faithful to His teachings, He would come and take their lamp stand away. That means the local church disappears. That process has been occurring in the United States in the last 50 years. Hopefully, we can turn that around. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Dear Edwin,
I wanted to add that I realize it distresses you that I won’t believe these secular sources re: homosexuality being normal. But I want you to understand that you are saying to me, “Susan look I got $5 over here. Pick it up. It’s free.” And I am saying, “Edwin, I have $1 billion dollars. What do I need with $5?” I’m not some blind robot believing my church. I have found the pearl of great price. I have found an immense treasure in the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Roman Catholic Church. I have found freedom and happiness. I have found Jesus Christ Himself. I do not need anything else. Whatever Jesus says, that’s fine with me, and He speaks through His Church, the Catholic Church. He promised He would for all time, and Jesus doesn’t lie. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

“I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

So with Lesbians having a right to their freedom in this country, you don’t have to be a Lesbian, but you pledge to allow them their freedom because without their having the same freedoms as you you would have no freedom for your belief.
Simple.
Jesus was asked a question and what is the greatest of all the commandments…
He said first love God with all your heart mind and soul and the second is like this you must love your neighbor as yourself.. Allow them the freedoms you have as well as the freedoms they have allowed you to have.
How could it be more simple and more obvious to a Christian. ????
How many of you have made this pledge over and over..

You do not get my point Susan Fox…you have your pearl of price and got there in your Lincoln continental, but you should not deny Lisa the Lesbian from getting the same pearl of great price in her old Chevy that does not look appealing to you. I am not asking you in any way to change or deminish your belief system one iota…same as Jesus said He did not want to change the scripture one dot, but he gave a different view of it…” You have heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you if a man slaps you on the left cheek turn to him the right.” In other words in loving your neighbor do not get offended if they do not follow the same belief system that you are apposed to.
The laws of the land protect your belief system, as well as those who do not believe as well as the handicaps of homosexuality. You are as guilty as they are with your Wrath and Selfish Pride, which are part of the 7 deadly sins we preach. In my opinion.
So two wrongs do not make a right…
Also Jesus said render Ceasers what is Ceasers…well the law of the land says that homosexuals have the right to be what God made them.
You deny their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..then you are in danger of having your rights taken away also. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
You have to be an idiot if you think that means be what you allow others to be? haha you do not understand the meaning of the words you use so how can you even think of demanding others follow your example by telling them what to believe???

No Starky,
Like I said I was a Chaplain’s asst and was there to support all of the religions of all of the soldiers, marines, airforce, and coastguard as well as those who chose not to have a religious belief system and Give them all equal respect, even though I chose for myself to be a fundamentalist Presbyterian.
I expected the same for when I came home to have that same freedom extended my fellow Americans at the Homeland.
We had homosexuals fighting for the same thing jumping on bombs to save their heterosexual buddies out of respect for those lives I post my war a peace messages.

Well Susan, if you do not believe or trust the scientific evidence, you are as guilty of bearing false witness by not admitting to truth, as the religious fanatics that refused to hold on to God’s words all 4 corners of the Earth..misinterpreting it to mean the earth was flat. I

Also it is really sad, and I guess the main reason that a lot of colleges and universities tend to exclude Christian, Scientists from their fold, because the Non Religious tend to be more concerned with not bearing false witness than the religious.

Again, often the religious tend to be worshiping dogma and doctrine vs the truth. That is so very sad, and does chase a lot of good people from the Belief System of the Religious and Spiritual Population.

If only you would realize that it is ok to believe what you believe for yourself and follow those concepts personally but not require others to follow your view in business and services to the community.

It is so sad that centuries have to go by prior to allowing the congregations to accept that 4 corners of the earth does not mean it is round it is all relative.

If the Roman Catholics would have allowed the scientists who knew better to live, how much faster could we have progressed in this world with knowledge of truth if those scientists could have lived to teach us more.

When so many homosexuals in the military have sacrificed their lives for their community as well as saved the lives of homosexuals, they deserve our support weather or not if we like their lifestyle. IMO
They have a lot of medics and other service people that died for that right.

Lilly Tomlin, the comedian has been with her girl lover for 43 yrs. Their relationship has probably outlived most of the couples that the Baker made wedding cakes for. Help Mates worked in this case more than most heterosexual marriages. But guess what they could not get married 43 yrs ago..my oh my.

I drive a 2002 Honda Accord with 259,000 miles on it. I expect to have it for another 10 years and another 250,000 miles. I have been frantically inviting all of you to have the same $1 billion I have, that is Jesus Christ, Real and Present, free and available at the Roman Catholic Church. As one of our dreadful hymns remind us: “Come and eat without money (at the table of the Lord).”  God bless you. Susan Fox

Well Susan, not sure what your claiming you have faith your car will run another 250k miles and what that has to do with you having 1 billion, in Jesus Christ???
Yes you may have access to Jesus Christ, invaluable, no billion required. John 3:16…for God so loved the world….even to those who believe in His Name…etc etc etc..and if you believe the Bible to be accurate you do know that God is Omnipresent, as I have said before so He is accessible without the Church as well…Remember the Roman Catholic Church did not exist until decades at least after the death of all the Apostles and all Christian meetings were held in private homes. No temple no church building. Also no gold leafed bible stands or gold candle holders and huge plates full of money being passed around.

I have never said you can not find what you felt you have found in your Church that is wonderful and I celebrate that with you.

But In My Opinion you take the power of Christ and God the Trinity away by limiting His powers to your little 1 billion congregations. It denies God’s omnipotence and omnipresent s ..In my mind.

It also take the judgement away from God and you steal it from Him by claiming you know better than Him by you, yourself making the judgment, that you only, have the answers.

Seems strange you deny Christianity ,outside of your dogma, and doctrine, when so many after the Reformation claimed their breaking away from the Catholic Church, is because they disagreed with the way the Church was honoring, or dishonoring, the message of Christ.

They claim a higher value on Christ’s teachings, or they would still be a part of your congregations.

Neither you Nor I, probably have the knowledge or facts to argue one way or the other on this subject for if we had the answers they would still be one congregation.

Even though the Orthodox church is under the Pope, it varies in its doctrine, and dogma, so all these people do not agree, in spite of their knowledge, of the Bible and languages,  far beyond ours

...so although you disagree with the Theology of the Harvard guy haha I am sure you have no grounds of specifics to make that decision on a universal level for others.

You seem to also forget that all these people with various views, also pray for enlightenment to the same God and profess the same apostles creed as you do and fulfill the requirement of ...(even to those that believe in His Name) requirement. So you deny their specific message that the same God gave to them..seems to me you deny God. 

Just like there is no one way for all humans to eat, and actualize their God given gifts…there is no one answer to all human spiritual messages. What is food for some is poison to others…Seems we should respect that unless we see life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness denied to anyone, as well as being denied the same for ourselves.

simply ...judge not in less you want to be judged, and do unto others as you would want them to do unto you….seems simple yet so easy to overlook when our specifics are so different than theirs…

the splinter in our neighbors eye vs the log in our own???/ when will we ever learn????

Edwin Morel-

You supported soldiers’ different religious beliefs & those who had no beliefs at all ...... yet you don’t support the rights & beliefs of a private citizen who owns a bakery.  How are you not able to see the twisted contradictory position?  Remarkable.

By the way, as many know, when one references ‘War and Peace’ outside of the context of the novel, they’re typically referring to the size (1,200+ pages)

Starky, you are confused by my posts I understand. I do not do a good job of describing my thoughts. Thanks for helping me to understand my shortcomings.
Ok see if this works. Yes I support all of our beliefs both in and out of the military. But as you know I had to serve those that had beliefs different than mine. I had to respect the fact they had different beliefs, but that did not mean I could not print their worship service pamphlets because I did not believe in the messages they were using them for.

It is no different than being an American outside of the military respecting other’s beliefs yet we still serve those who disagree with our beliefs. The Christian Business men do not question the people purchasing things from them, if they are atheist or not. They come for our products and we sell them we are in public business.

Like I said if the baker was serious about his beliefs he was ask for a sugar level test to ensure he was not selling to diabetics so he would not be contributing to their death, just like selling a cake with two female dolls on top, in his mind would be contributing to their spiritual death in his mind. Of course being guilty of hate from the words of the Bible is no different in the words of Christ than murder if you know your New Testament, especially the red letter edition words..
Hey again I am offering my opinion as a supporter of American Freedom of Religion not expressing my personal view of the subject. Also have expressed why people have a different view. We are all entitled to our view just not to discriminate in business.

The Churches view on Darwin’s theory of Evolution seems to be:
Since the publication of Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species in 1859, the attitude of the Catholic Church on the theory of evolution has slowly been refined. For about 100 years, there was no authoritative pronouncement on the subject. In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution, provided that Christians believe that the individual soul is a direct creation by God and not the product of purely material forces.[1] Today, the Church’s unofficial position is an example of theistic evolution, also known as evolutionary creation,[2] stating that faith and scientific findings regarding human evolution are not in conflict, though humans are regarded as a special creation, and that the existence of God is required to explain both monogenism and the spiritual component of human origins. Moreover, the Church teaches that the process of evolution is a planned and purpose-driven natural process, guided by God.[3][4][5]

So eventually they may evolve to catch up with the studies of tradition and linguistics that go along with the 5 verses now identified as homosexual taboo, not to mean that at all. As they will also catch up with the scientific studies identifying homosexuality as a normal biological gender spectrum of all animals including primates and man.

The flexibility of belief systems still in America should be respected from both sides. So if you respect your views being allowed for your private belief system, it is only right to respect the opposing view.

I had no problem printing flyers for the various services even if they had pictures of the Virgin Mary, or The Saints, or Buddha or symbols representing Alla, or the 1000 gods of Hindu’s. We serve equally for the freedoms we have in America. Of course that includes the atheists.

Edwin,
My car comment referred to the practice you have of denigrating me in order to win an argument. It is a cowardly way to try to convince people of your position. I don’t trust your scientific evidence. It is bogus. It is contrary to natural law, written into the very complementary nature of man and woman. And while God is the Father of all mankind, and all mankind has access to Him, He has chosen to reveal Himself through the Catholic Church, and the Jewish people before Christ’s birth.  God speaks through the authentic magisterium (teaching authority)  of the Catholic Church. He speaks through her Scripture and Tradition—This is the deposit of faith, which we guard. IT is available to anybody who wants it. It does not remove your freedom or interfere with your rights as a citizen of the United States.  God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Well first of all Susan, I in no way meant to denigrate you. If I did it was totally unintentional.

I may have tried to address your reasoning and to attempt to show you where your direction on focus was off like you might be driving down the wrong side of the road.

I do not care what car you are driving (Roman Catholic Church) only attempt to let you know the peaceful way for it to get from one point to another in a freeway here in America.

I might also be referring to the differences in vehicles on the road .  That in no way should be distorted to refer to the driver.

I don’t know why so often Roman Catholics seem to consider themselves as victims of a discussion when this type of discussion is in progress. I have seen it before. Strange

You only have to look at the life of Gandhi to get the same message I am inadequately attempting to portray..sorry for the ineptness and as one said the long winded attempt.

Susan the reaction you gave me above about the Church was the same given to justify killing those who claimed the earth was not the center of the Universe or that the earth was round, because God said ( All four corners of the earth)
You might also read some of the writings of the (Nuns on the Bus) that are attempting to make some changes in the Dogma and Doctrine that would adequately enline the views to catch up with truth discovered by science and education, which was the original point of education and the study of truth. The Church originated all of the search for truth and education in order to know God.

Let me make one more attempt Susan Fox:
The Bible says:
1. Judge not lest ye be judged.
2. Tho shalt not bear false witness.
3. To love your enemies.
4. ALL have come short of the Glory of God.
Therefor maybe it is peace we need to have accpting those of various beliefs vs:
The killing and lack of acceptance and living together in mutual respect that both your group ( The Roman Catholics, and My groups The Protestants) experienced in Ireland, killing each other over differences of dogma, tradition and interpretation vs the messages quoted above that we both preach.???
Does that clarify abit knowing I have said this multiple times???

Susan: another thought I have mentioned before, but may clarify in a better way, I hope, ???
In ancient times slavery was justified and in the OT not considered against God nor in the NT against church tradition or dogma.
In fact the Jews experienced becoming slaves so they knew what it meant to do unto others as you would have them do unto you…for sure!!
Well it took our Founding Fathers and Lincoln here in America to free the salves, and only in my lifetime to clarify that so all could live in peace and drink out of the same fountains, eat out of the same cafe and sit in the same seats as the rest of us. The do unto others is still not completely honored even by those of us who preach that message.

Well here is a test for you if you are a Believer in the New Testament especially. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. love your enemy…because even the pagan can love those that agree with them..and if you have hate in your heart for your brother it is as if you murdered him..etc…
So say you were the one hired by the Roman Catholic, or Protestant Church or even Jewish Temple, to kill the Scientists who proclaimed the earth was not the center of the universe,

or that the earth was not flat…and then found that what the Church taught you may have been in error. It was not fact but in error of translation or interpretation.

But you were to kill them as heretics….. What would your feelings be and how would you justify your judgment or expect to be judged????

Maybe that is what is meant by judge not lest ye be judged ..How will the Catholics and Protestants that killed each other in the decades of war in Ireland be judged?
What will we learn from history?

How do we apply the words of Christ ( if you have done it unto the least you have done it unto Me?

Another hypothetical Susan Fox:
If the two lesbians getting married, had been in combat in Afghanistan, as one a nurse and one a doctor, medics, and they were both wounded in combat fighting for freedom of religion here in America. How silly would it be to deny them their two female dolls on top of their wedding cake no matter what your religion. Mutual respect for they risked their lives for the baker to be free to believe his beliefs. Everything is relative. It is not us to judge but God. We judge for ourselves not for others. IMO

We just had a Republican representative that changed preaching against gay marriage as he had been when he experienced his own child being gay. As I have said in previous messages that often does change our view when we experience it for ourselves. Often God slaps us in the face for preaching about something we know nothing about. I have been there done that and that is how I know.

Edwin, I have explained to you 1,000 times. Objectively telling you that ACTS of homosexuality are a sin is not putting homosexuals at the back of the bus. Admitting something is a sin, judges no one. In fact, because I believe the greater the sinner the greater he has the right to Christ’s mercy, I would treat anyone caught in any kind of sin with the greatest love and gentleness.  I think your issue is that you corrected a loved one with disastrous results and your reaction in hindsight was to think you should not have corrected them. Perhaps you are right. Perhaps you used the wrong approach or were harsh in your correction. Perhaps it was not your job to correct that person. There is a sin of meddling. Sometimes we find that the only recourse we have for misbehaving grown children is to withdraw and pray fervently for them.  It is possible to sin in the act of correction if you are bitterly judging them, if your words to them are cruel or thoughtless. But the only situation I would express my opinion of acts of homosexuality to a homosexual person is if they were open to listening to me, if they wanted to change their behavior. If they did not want to change and were not open to listening to me,  then I would not discuss the matter with them at all. I did door to door evangelization for 30 years on a weekly basis, and I learned never to enthusiastically tell someone what the Church thinks unless I first gained their permission! I would ask, “Do you want me to explain the Church’s position on birth control?” Or whatever they were upset about.  And you should not spend so much time trying to change my mind when I am in no danger of hurting a homosexual person whatsoever. And should I meet someone who wants to change their lifestyle, you should not interfere with that. Surely, they are free to do what they want just as the lesbians were free to have a wedding, and the baker was free not to bake a cake.
I sympathize with you and all who discover their child is gay. I have had my difficulties with my son as well. That is an entirely different matter than whether homosexual acts are objectively sinful. If I can’t go to the catechism or the 10 commandments and find out what is sin, then I am lost. I have no compass. But if my child is caught in some horrendously wrong behavior, how do I handle that? That is an entirely different issue. And if that is your issue we should be discussing that, not homosexuality. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com and on You Tube, Channel TestisFidelis

Again Susan you do not get my point. Sorry !!! lets see if this helps.
1.Remember the God said ( all four corners of the earth) thus the Church for centuries decided the earth had to be flat, not round and the scientists that were also Catholic were persecuted for being heretics for their proclaiming the earth was round.
2. My point is to keep your view on homosexuality, but to respect the fact that your view like the view of others is relative. In our respect of learning from history, often our past logic has been wrong because we did not have all the variables. And yes it may be wrong for you personally to participate in homosexual acts. So practice what you feel strong about.
3. You use the word Sin, but respect the American freedom of Religion to those also that are not religious to not accept the word Sin as a legitimate term because they don’t believe in what you call God or any of the definitions or linguistics you consider sacred.
4. In America and why we have that freedom, is we are free to not believe what you believe about human sexuality in the same way you do.

5. Eventually you should learn from history that some day mythology and traditions and yes dogma and doctrine does catch up with science and fact.

Also the terminology developed prior to 2000 yrs ago when there was no word for homosexuality so we don’t even know if what the Church interprets as homosexuality was meant that way or what others know to be only hospitality.

Homosexual acts were normal in Roman times during the stories of the Bible. Sexual abuse of outsiders and enemies were the tradition.

Men and women slept in separate beds and it was traditionally wrong for a man to take a sexual partner into his wives bed, but he many have many wives and sex slaves, times were different. They had arranged marriages in Biblical times.

6. The purpose of this discussion is if the Baker, not you, should have made a big deal out of not selling a cake with two female dolls representing a lesbian wedding or not as a public bakery, when the owner was a Christian with beliefs that homosexuality was a sin.

7. This has nothing to do with how you feel about homosexuality, in an American society with freedom of religion and serving the public, and not discriminating in the market place.

8. I already agreed that both were wrong in my mind. It was childish for the guy to make a big deal out of the two female dolls and childish out of the women not to just go on to another baker for her cake.

9. What I am addressing is a Christian as well as American view of mutual respect for God’s children, all of us humans. It is not for us to judge for others, and as Americans it is against the law to discriminate on others because of race, gender, or religious beliefs. Also in America Atheists are as welcome as any religion and we do not discriminate in business because someone does not believe in our belief system or the words we use to express them.

10. You may consider it a sin to marry heterosexually at the age of 12 and 13, but it was common in Biblical times, and it was thought that the Virgin Mary was only 13 when she conceived.

Things are relative not always clear cut as we want to think they are.

To love your enemy as well as your friends also means respect their differences and different ways of being and wording things, as well as what they consider of do not consider what you consider to be sacred ..
Of course this is only my personal opinion.

Hope this in some way brings some sort of peace to the conversation. I am not here to confuse or distort truth in any way.

1)It was never part of the Catholic doctrine that the earth was flat. Our doctrine has not changed in over 2,000 years, and I am very familiar with all Church Doctrine.
2)My view is not relative. There is Truth. He is Jesus Christ.
3)American freedoms have nothing to do with truth: witness the fact that we have murdered 54 million Americans since 1973.  There is no other way to describe it, and it completely abrogates the American right to life. 54 million Americans have had their freedom taken away to the point where they cannot enter this blog and make a comment on this issue. 54 million Americans cannot make a choice about their sexual identity. 54 million Americans cannot marry, have children, hug their mommies or go to school. The American Govenment has completely deprived 54 million Americans the right to decide anything. Don’t talk to me about American freedoms! Without life, there are NONE.
4)You have the freedom to believe what you want. I agree. Don’t bother me about this any longer. It doesn’t make what you believe true.
5) What you said in #5 is so completely ridiculous. It doesn’t deserve an answer. If you are using the Bible now, which you obviously don’t believe in, Scripture is clear that sodomy is an offense against God. Also everyone is free to chose to sin, although chosing sin is not the the proper use of free will. Not everyone believes in sin. I agree. But that is simply a sign of the moral decay of our culture, nothing that is good.
6) I have answered the purpose of this discussion, the bakers, numerous times, and you don’t accept what I have to say, so drop it.
7) Re: #3 there is no freedom in America
8) There was nothing childish in refusing to put two female dolls on a cake because truth is not relative and it is worth fighting for, or you’ll end up dead like the other 54 million Americans. Don’t bring this argument up. I agree the lesbians were immature to complain about it. I think the state of Oregon amounts to a dictatorship to prosecute the poor baker who was exercising his supposed right to religion, which does not exist in this country any longer!
9)I agree we do not need to judge one another. I consider it a sin, but it’s strange that you would bring up something from Scripture when you obviously don’t believe in it since you think there is no SIN!
However, as I’ve told you 1,000 times now. Judging an act sinful is not the same thing as judging a person who commits the sin. For instance, in this entire discussion, have I ever labeled you with the name of “STUBBORN”  and refused to talk to you? Others - you may have noticed - have dropped out of this discussion. They may have given you and me both that label. But in my mind this may or may not be one of your sins. I refuse to judge you. I see you Edwin Morrel as a CHILD OF GOD. THAT IS NOT JUDGING YOU.
9) A Christian viewpoint is that all are children of God including those involved in the sin of sodomy, but it doesn’t change the act into something that is not an offense against God. It would seem Americans have no respect for human life, judging by their actions. Also it seems based on their laws that Americans think it’s okay to discriminate against the life of an unborn person, whether they be gay, male, female, black white or latino. All they have to be is helpless and then they are toast. The same will occur for the elderly in this country. Elderly gays, elderly whites, elderly rich, elderly poor—all will be forced into an early grave if it is convenient for the state. My point is stop arguing based on what you imagine we have in America. It doesn’t make evil good.
10) Loving your enemy has nothing to do with accepting evil actions as good. I may love my enemy as he kills me, but I will not say to the world his actions are right. They are wrong, but I can forgive you when you are wrong. God bless you. Susan Fox
http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Well Susan, if your comment Jesus Christ is the Truth, wonder why it is so difficult for you to understand my message, because I support my view with the words of Jesus Christ, not just my own? Strange

If you do not know that the Church Leaders killed those who disagreed on their interpretation of the earth is flat because God said all four corners of the earth so it must be flat…you do not even know the truth of History. So bearing false witness may not be your fault for you are not aware of the Truth. Sorry about that.

To say I do not know what Sin is, and do not believe in the Bible is a strange statement. It only assures me you did not read my words for most of the focus was on Biblical passages.

Also the fact that Freedom to believe, in the American way, means freedom also to those who do not believe in what you call sin. I did not give you my beliefs on what was or was not sin.

I don’t know where you got that from my statements. You have no idea what I consider sin.

What you obviously do not have a clue about, is your own ethnocentrism, ego-centrism, and lack of any respect for the relativity of truth, nor the multiple meanings and definitions of words based on when they were used and in what context and how we can be fooled by illusions. These lack of admitting to and focus on being the only truth is what is called fanaticism and the major cause of conflict and war in the first place. IMO

Susan, you mentioned that others chose not to continue in this conversation. I suggest that they do not want to be included in addressing some of the ignorant unrelated comments.

I would still like to know what the Baker would do if a hermaphrodite who dresses like a female would like a wedding cake for whoever they chose to marry, male or female or another hermaphrodite…without breaking your rules or supporting your concepts of sin.?

Susan I am afraid your statement of Jesus Christ is truth…relating to any point to support what you consider truth, is that you are making God in your image vs realizing we are made in His image. You, in my opinion are not considering God’s omnipotence and omnipresence and diversity.

Thus the ultimate sin of piety and ego-centrism and obviously ethnocentrism. In my opinion. As I said before the main cause of conflict and war and not the peace maker that Christ mentioned in the Sermon on the mt..

Edwin - It seems you’re confused on the meaning of a few terms which is likely the root cause of you not understanding. “Freedom of Religion” pertains to laws/government. How can you not see that by thinking you’re protecting one person’s freedom of religion you often times have to trample on another person’s?  As far as your comparison of a customer being diabetic & the sugar content of a cake, you have to know that’s nonsensical at every angle. Diabetes is not a sin nor is using sugar. The baker was made aware of the circumstances & chose not to participate by providing gay symbolism on his product. Did Jesus participate with or condone the money-changers in the temple? That would be “no” on both. “Judging” is in regards to salvation/damnation. One never knows when a sinner becomes repentant, even on their death bed. “Discernment of sin” is entirely different. “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness” Ephesians 5:11.  It can also be compared to parents/children. Parents don’t condone a child’s bad behavior but they don’t hate their child. And I don’t believe you ever answered:  Should a Christian be able to go into an Atheist-owned music-filled restaurant or club and demand Christian music be played? Or, an adult book store & demand Bibles be available?

Edwin, it is you who is ignorant of history.Copernicus was a Catholic in good standing who proposed the idea of heliocentrism (the astronomical model in which the Earth and planets revolve around a stationary Sun at the center of the Solar System.) He never got in trouble with the church. He was before Galileo, which is who I suspect you are associating with contradicting a “flat earth theory.” It was only superstitious sailors who feared to fall off the edge of the earth, which they thought was flat. Galileo did support heliocentrism, but that is not why he got into trouble with the Church. His mistake was that he said unless something is quantifiable, it is not knowable. That is what he was tried for—his methodology was heresy. He was not tried for heliocentrism. The Church has never made any dogmatic statement in its entire history about whether the earth is flat or whether the creation was seven days or if the earth is 6,000 years old. That is not Catholic dogma, nor is it part of our job.  So what was wrong with saying everything knowable is quantifiable? By definition he denied the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist (it’s not quantifiable). He denied the validity of Scripture—it is not quantifiable. He denied the validity of the Mass—it is not quantifiable. The Church had every right to challenge Galileo on his methodology. And in fact our position has not changed on that. We would strenuously disagree with him on that because those are matters of faith. Therefore if that is what you are associating with the Church supporting some flat earth theory, then we are still “flat earthers”! We reject Galileo’s methodology. But we have no problem with heliocentrism, although that is NOT a dogma of the Church.

Satan also used Scripture to argue with Jesus Christ. In Matthew Chapter 4, he took Jesus up to Jerusalem and placed him on the pinnacle of the temple (very high up), and said “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written (in Scripture) “He will give his angels charge of you, and on their hands they will bear you up lest you strike your foot against a stone.” So Satan accurately quoted Scripture, but he twisted its meaning. It didn’t mean, “Jesus prove yourself the Son of God by committing a reckless act that will probably end in your death.”
And so Jesus responds with another quote from Scripture: “Again it is written, “You shall not tempt the Lord your God.”  He rejects the devil’s argument from Scripture. So just because you quote Scripture to me does not mean that you understand its meaning. Satan can quote Scripture but when he does he will twist its meaning. (I’m not saying you are Satan. I am just saying quoting Scripture is no guarantee of truth) So peacemaker as you understand it obviously is the peace that the world understands. Everything must be calm, restful, keep your religion to yourself, don’t bother me, agree with me no matter how silly my arguments. That’s the world’s peace, but Jesus’ peace is different. He said, “I have come to cast fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!” That is not the kind of peace or peacemaker, that the world considers peaceful. If we are comfortable, Jesus disturbs that.  He lights a fire under you.  Peacemaking in the Christian sense can actually cause emotional upset, conflict and disturbance if you are peacemaking with someone who doesn’t want to change. (You don’t force change, they simply explode when you explain the faith). I explained all this to your before: the actions of the good spirit will actually make a person who is drawing away from God angry. So it appears that the person bearing the message of truth has caused conflict. He has not. He has merely witnessed to the truth. This is a form of martyrdom. I am not giving you my view of the world. I am giving you the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. I didn’t make this stuff up. I’d consider myself an incredible genius if I had thought this stuff up. But I didn’t. I merely learned it. 

When you say “Judge not lest ye be judged,” this does not apply to judging the act of homosexuality. Actually, the person who identifies himself as a homosexual is the one who does the judging because he identifies himself with a SIN. It’d be like me introducing myself as “Gossip” because I occasionally gossip. Sadly, such a person does not know who he is. He thinks he’s a “HOMOSEXUAL”, a “SIN.” But his identity is with God. He is really identified as who he is in relation to God—a child. With that label, Child of God or Servant of Christ, or Beloved of God, with that label, he has true dignity as a man. As a “homosexual” he has no dignity, he only has the label of sin.

But the Christian looks at any person, including himself,  and sees a Child of God. We do not see a homosexual, nor a gossiper. We see a Child. This is not judging. Judging is when you say you think I’m a fanatic. You did it politely, but you did judge. I forgive you. (That’s that cowardly way of arguing. Argue a point by putting down the person you are arguing with)

Jesus doesn’t just have truth—he is Truth.  He said, “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” And for that reason there is NO RELATIVITY of TRUTH. It either is or it isn’t. Now, where did I get the impression you don’t believe in sin? Well, the fact that you don’t think homosexuality is a sin even though you are quoting the Bible madly, and it says it is.  But since you mention these sins. I agree that ethnocentrism is a sin, and as Christians we regard all men regardless of culture as CHILDREN OF GOD. And we believe we should seek the Holy Spirit’s inspiration to understand other cultures. So the very admonition, Judge not lest ye be judged helps save us from the sin of ethnocentrism. In fact, St. John of the Cross urges us to treat everyone with equal love and forgetfulness. But even within a cohesive group, I have found myself in the past liking some people more than others. I finally figured out that those I know and have conversations with are generally people I esteem more. But there are these little people, and they see me, and like me, and want my attention also, and I must love them and treat them with equal love. This is something I’ve tried to do for years.

Based on your comment about ethnocentrism, I think you must believe that homosexuality is a culture. It is not. It is a behavior associated with many cultures. There is no one country which is all homosexual. Such a country would have died out rapidly because there would be no children. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Hi Starky. I do believe I answered your standing question before at least once but will try again. Also will attempt to reply to the rest of your statements. Hope this gives some clarification. Thanks for helping me understand what might be confusing.

  Answer to:- It seems you’re confused on the meaning of a few terms which is
  likely the root cause of you not understanding. “Freedom of Religion”
  pertains to laws/government. How can you not see that by thinking you’re
  protecting one person’s freedom of religion you often times have to trample
  on another person’s?

REPLY: Business in the United States allows all to not discriminate on race, gender or religious beliefs.
If you are in the renting business, or selling products yet you can specialize on what products to sell such as a religious book store can sell religious books and if it advertises can sell only Christian books, but it can sell these to any race, or any religion or any gender. It does not discriminate according to the buyer or the buyers preferences. They can be atheists. They don’t have to believe in what you call sin or after life or any of the belief systems you, the store owner proclaims to be true.

  Answer to:As far as your comparison of a customer being diabetic
  & the sugar content of a cake, you have to know that’s nonsensical at every
  angle. Diabetes is not a sin nor is using sugar. The baker was made aware of
  the circumstances & chose not to participate by providing gay symbolism on
  his product. Did Jesus participate with or condone the money-changers in the
  temple? That would be “no” on both. “Judging” is in regards to
  salvation/damnation. One never knows when a sinner becomes repentant, even
  on their death bed. “Discernment of sin” is entirely different. “Have
  nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness” Ephesians 5:11. It can
  also be compared to parents/children. Parents don’t condone a child’s bad
  behavior but they don’t hate their child.

REPLY: What you believe to be a sin is sin to you, but we have freedom to believe that there is such a thing as sin according to our Bible. Freedom of Religion allows a person to not believe in our definition of sin, as long as it does not break the laws of the land. That freedom allows us to believe in what we define as sin. To contribute to someone;s death weather physical or spiritual to us as Christians is sin. Like I said Christ even said ( If you have hate in your heart for your brother it is as if you have murdered him) ..so even that shows how even as Christians what we feel in our hearts is as real a sin as what we do physically to someone.

  Answer to :And I don’t believe you ever
  answered: Should a Christian be able to go into an Atheist-owned
  music-filled restaurant or club and demand Christian music be played? Or, an
  adult book store & demand Bibles be available?

REPLY: In an adult book story, the title determined it’s specialty and what it sells. What it sells does not discriminate on the basis of who it sells to. You do know that they sell to many Christians and people of all Religious beliefs including those who practice and read the Bible. The same with the Atheist owned club…they are specialized in what they sell not who they sell to..

A Baker advertising Wedding Cakes does not ask the purchaser if they are planning to have anal or oral sex after the wedding which may be against the Bakers belief, or considered a sin. It sells wedding cakes. If the Baker advertised to bake only Christian Wedding Cakes they may not be in error. I do not know that much about specific law. But even at that there are many gay Christians, including ministers and priests, and some that believe in gay marriage, so not sure they would have the right to discriminate on what they call sin. Like I said even Harvard Theologians disagree on the homosexual acts being a sin. The act of Sodomy in Rape is universally accepted because it has a victim. In Biblical times it was a sin to sleep with a sex slave in your wife
s bed. They had separate beds and marriages were prearranged not like we consider marriage in our culture now. That is why the promiscuity outside of marriage at that time in history and the public bath houses.

The fact that in The United States 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce shows that only half the population holds vows to be sacred unlike 2000 yrs ago but the promiscuity may not have varied far from those times. These are not the terms used to decide weather or not to sell a wedding cake, here in America to a same gender couple or not. As I see it.

Susan I am not here to question either your knowledge of history nor your faith. There are various opinions on both that have been debated for centuries.
This is not the place for it, nor do either of us have the expertise and especially me, though I have had much experience with my own faith.
The question is about the baker and what is meant by freedom of religion in the American way. The right not to be exposed without consent to radical or any dogma, while still having the right to believe what you want.

I laugh when you say I do not know what sin is…because sin has nothing to do with the subject. People have the right to not believe in even the word sin if they do not believe in a God…as well as not to have the same definition of sin as you do.

You have the right to free speech even if you do not realize the ethics of that right and allowing others to not believe to be as important as your right to believe.

Jesus had the right to condemn the money changers because He believed they were defiling His Father’s house, His Church.

And Yes Probably the best capable entity to quote the Bible is the one that lived thought it;s history is Satan. I am sure he is much more qualified than either you or I.

Susan and Starky: It seems strange that you quote the Bible as a definite plan for humanity and all history but do not relate to the fact that in it’s conception it was meant only for Jews. The world was fully populated and many languages and races that did without the Bible yet God was the creator of all mankind. Strange you think you need to dictate they all believe the same thing. Strange you deny that maybe God Himself determines how to lead His people of diversity throughout the Universe. Yes use the words that apply to you or to those of us that gain a certain understanding by the use of these words.

The fundamentalist view on abortion protects the unborn, the union of an ova and a sperm,yet after gays lesbians and hermaphrodites or even transgenders that are fully developed humans you treat in a way that makes them want to take their own lives for the humiliation we put them through. Strangely contradictory in my mind.

In God;s plan of diversity for humanity, He chooses variations in what nurtures and what destroys His creation. Like I said what is nutritious for some is destructive for others. Thus the analogy of strawberries and nuts that nurture some humans and kill others.

Thus the analogy of sugar for diabetics vs what is normal for most. Respect for God’s diversity seems to be ignored by the need to control and have power over other humans to dictate what is right and wrong for them.

All you have to do is study Biology and the nature of living things to know that what is normal for some is abnormal for others. To choose how to destroy others seems against the entire purpose of any religion yet becomes a purpose and abuse of power. IMO

It is so amusing to me that the non believer sees so clearly the hypocrisy of a great deal of the believers but we do not see it at all…so many of us are illusianary in our views, as well as in denial of what is natural for some is not for others. Strange the honor given to those who choose to deny their sexuality in the name of God in the priesthood when the Rock or cornerstone of the Church Peter himself was married.

Yet it is not seen as an act of diversity. Paul Himself said he wished that all could abstain for the time was near…yet if all abstained there would be no church because all the Christians would have died off and not procreated. The rest of the entire world population would have continued to procreate and been fine. Lucky they did not have the writings of Paul to influence them, maybe.

But of course if you do not have a God that has all power nor is omnipresent, then you choose what He can and what He can not do on his own.
Thus you choose how others will worship or live and continue to kill in the name of that God until your power controls the universe, and who lives and who does not.

Satan tempted Christ to have that power and He choose not to use it…not to turn the stone to food for himself or to gain power in that way to control the world…God did apparently give Moses the power over nature to do magical things to show power…but not for powers sake or we might wonder why that power was not used to turn all the Egyptians into believers of the same religion as the Jews had vs just to let the Jews go find their own way in the name of that God. ???

Dear Edwin,
I am saying this with all due respect. You seemed to argue that because the Catholic Church changed its mind about the earth being flat, (something it never proposed as truth) it could someday change its position on homosexuality. Is that not something you have been trying to argue these past weeks?

However, now that it is shown to you that the Catholic Church did not discipline Galileo for his heliocentrism, but for his methodology, which would deny the truth of Scripture, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and the validity of the Catholic Mass, now you tell me that you and I do not have the expertise to discuss history?

My eight years home-schooling my son in history (4th through 12th grade) are not the reason I’m telling you that’s silly. Sir, you and I are both intelligent, and both of us can look it up. But you seem to be unwilling to make the effort.

Holy Mother Church has deepened its understanding of homosexuality, recognizing it as a disorder and the sin of substitution (substituting a man for a woman if you are a man). But suggesting that the Roman Catholic Church, which has not changed its doctrine in 2,000 years of history, would someday say that God made them male and male, female and female instead of in their complementary nature – male and female, to suggest that is a very serious allegation against Holy Mother Church.  By taking such a public position, and being unwilling to even look into the truth of YOUR OWN ARGUMENTS, you defame the Catholic Church.

Our new Pope Francis I said on March 22, 2013: “There is another form of poverty! It is the spiritual poverty of our time, which afflicts the so-called richer countries particularly seriously. It is what my much-loved predecessor (Pope Benedict) called ‘THE TYRANNY OF RELATIVISM,’ which makes everyone his own criterion and endangers the co-existence of peoples … THERE IS NO TRUE PEACE WITHOUT TRUTH.”

Yet the kind of peace you are espousing here is WITHOUT TRUTH.

You and I are of an age where we have maybe 10 to 20 years left on this earth.  What happens when we come face to face with TRUTH Himself? Where will be both be when our toes are pushing up the daisies? Do you believe there are no consequences for what we say now? This is not some game we are playing here. I am not writing to you in order to win an argument, but rather to bring you face to face with Perfect Love: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  Please reconsider the public stance you have taken on this matter of homosexuality.

Remember you are always welcome in the Catholic Church. You are always welcome to study the Catholic faith with us in the RCIA program or on your own. What we have is open to everyone as I’ve explained God is the FATHER of all mankind. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Again thank you Susan for showing what you are reading of my posts so I know how what I am saying is not reflecting my point.

1. When I said neither of us is qualified to debate on the subject of theology when the theologians of all faiths obviously disagree with each other or we would only have one religion. Thus the validity of freedom of religion.

2. So you are free as am I to follow what makes sense to each of us. But also it leaves opened that neither of us knows the whole truth or we too would have the world following our view. My not stating exactly what my view is was because I am supporting the freedom of beliefs in America..as well as how being a Chaplain’s asst in the military, I could not tell all of the other faiths what to believe, and they were giving their lives to have the freedom we have.

3. Your Faith may have views on homosexuality that differ from anything I have read on the subject in my studies of psychology for nothing you have said on the subject paralleled with any I have studied. No did they enter into any of the counseling I had studies to help these people avoid committing suicide or living their lives without fear of persecution.

4. I am sorry but you relating it to Adam and Eve..is strange…God did not say He only made Adam and Eve…and probably thought our brains would understand that by the messages he gave us in observing nature itself. Of course you do not understand that for you are worshiping a dogma and doctrine not truth only what you are dictated to to be truth. I am sorry if your Pope relates that he only has the Ultimate truth…if so maybe we should close all of the University science depts and research on science and our search for truth.

5. The Galileo example was not the only example, the flat earth theory is the one that the church killed people for for being heretics…also the Pharisees Killed Christ as leaders of the Church for His Truth and that is how our religion originated from Church know it all’s dictating their view on the only one that was truth but not their truth. IMO

6. You obviously do not know the science and studies that show that God may have made Adam and Eve…but also made those that represent transsexuals, homosexuals, as well as hermaphrodites…do you see anything in genesis on hermaphrodites…it is not a science book Susan..show me any reference in the Bible for how to treat hermaphrodites…also is there instruction on who they would be allowed to marry if any.???

So it is not unlikely if you carry that argument out that possibly Adam and Steve may have also been made and eve and Virginia too may have been made. Also if God claimed not to marry your brother or sister maybe He also made others for their offspring to marry that are not all in the basic creation story.

Also just because you studied to teach your children does not make you any better a teacher than I was with a teaching degree and my work with teaching the handicapped, even if we did come up with variations on the subjects being taught ...we still are not in the same leagues as those who consider themselves theologians…of all faiths coming up with opposite viewpoints..Remember the Harvard Theologian that supports homosexuality and says that the verses used to point to homosexuality were not originally meant that way at all….

Susan you don’t have to search far to find Biblical contradictions to the so called Truth of either your religion or mine even if we are both Christians. Thus neither you or I are theologians so not qualified we don’t have the focus of our entire lives in the study of only one subject and it’s ramifications such as linguistics, and archeology etc…
If you want one reference this:http://thenproveit.com/files/Catholicism.pdf
You can find your beliefs do the same to mine so just join the list of proof that all of us are wrong or right. Thus the need for freedom of Religion vs fighting to the death of opposing views…thus Jesus’s statement of humility and peace making…we don’t know it all no matter what faith that fits our spiritual appetite.

The Book of Genesis referencing Adam and Eve says nothing about the other people He made to mate with the children of Adam and Eve so that incest or other sins would not be committed nor did That passage mention anything about hermaphrodites which exist and always have. Nor anything in between it is not all black and white and the Bible is not a science book. God also gave us brains and desire to seek knowledge and observe and learn from nature and the evidence is right under yours and my nose if only we take the doctrine and traditional dogma that was followed by the Pharisees that Christ Himself fought constantly.

Susan I did not say the flat earth theory had anything to do with Galileo but it was in the same category as the earth being the center of the Universe. The difference is they did kill those who proclaimed the earth was not flat. That was based on God saying (all 4 corners of the earth) We could also with the same logic say that God did not make Adam and Eve as male and female for He said He made them in Our Image…taking from this in the Image of Christ and God the Father and Holy Spirit, so must have been masculine first..then must have made the xy chromosome and put it into one so one may have been a transsexual prior to even having two genders. I have heard this as a viable argument.

These are reasons I said neither of us are theologians and therefore not really qualified to say if one of us is representing truth vs the other for those with far more knowledge and training disagree.

Also if you followed the link I sent the Roman Catholic Church has been historically documented to bend the truth to support their traditions and doctrine and dogma. Of course they are not the only ones…but we that are not Roman Catholics have good reason to be a bit leery of what you hold to be Truth. Especially when you do not know science at all obviously. Not that science has not been found to be untruthful but it is not it’s major premise and testing to verify truth is it;s major example to support truth.

Edwin, I answered your question about hermaphadites in private correspondence:
“The short answer to your question is that the Catholic Church encourages people with same sex attraction to abstain from sexual intercourse outside marriage—the same as they expect heterosexuals to do so.  This no different than what Jesus Christ taught: “For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage for the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” You had said you were asking Jesus what happens to hermaphadites and people born with abnormal sexual organs. Jesus answered you in Matthew 19:12 (quote above). They renounce the goods of marriage. They have no sexual activity. The same for some Catholics and Christians, they renounce the goods of marriage for the kingdom of heaven (nuns and priests). Even if they do marry, they have to renounce the goods of marriage sometimes for a short, sometimes for a long period of time (Natural Family Planning). I know that men have sexual urges. I have been married for 29 years. But God works with us, and with God nothing is impossible. It may take years, but Catholics can overcome the sin of masturbation, the sin of adultery, the sin of homosexual activity.  For a person with same sex attraction, God can in an instant remove the desire for such, or He can allow the person to continue to struggle with the desire and that will be his ladder to heaven. It takes courage however, and trust in God. The Christian life is not for cowards.”  God bless you. Susan Fox
P.S. However, if you don’t accept Scripture, don’t believe in sin, don’t care what the Catholic Church thinks, have a romantic idea of what the laws in the U.S. mean, then we have no basis for conversation. Your science is bogus. Your history is ill-informed. There is no Adam and Steven. It obviously isn’t in the Bible. I can understand why you don’t want to pray the prayer: “Dear God, please consecrate me in the truth. Help me to live in reality.” If you are not even willing to ask God to help you understand this issue, you will never know the truth. And it is the Truth that will set you free.

Here is hoping that everyone involved in this discussion will have a great and Spiritual Easter Weekend. Also wonderful to Celebrate with the New and obviously well received New Pope. Hoping His Inspiration is contagious and that it will fill the hearts and Spirit of the world with much needed positive influence. Spirit filled Easter to you all.

I am sorry Susan but that has been my prayer from the age of 9 in 1949. My calling was to honor truth and the truth I found was and is the same as you for you but not for those who were born different.

Also a hermaphrodite is not an eunuch. There have been many studies of fundamentalist Christian organizations to attempt to evangelize homosexuals and cure them from their natural inclination that obviously did not have success.

Some may have turned from that but it was attributed to developmental vs successful rehabilitation. And yes the people that have alternative views of history feel the same way as you do about your prejudicial history indoctrination.

Also as I said before the same with how you interpret the 5 passages in the Bible. You are perfectly welcome to your view but that does not make it any more valid than any other view.

But in America we are obliged to allow you your view and if you believe in do unto others as you would have them do unto you you would respect their views.

The same as you ignoring the fact that some do not consider homosexuality as inclusive in your word sin. Also many do not consider sex or sexual pleasure or masturbation a sin for it is a normal biological process.

Yes you can ignore it or sublimate it as Freud said but that is your choice and in the mind of some a crime against the nature that God gave us. Also to ignore the fact that God gave us pleasure and hormones for mental and physical health and to ignore that is to destroy the Temple of God if you believe the part of the Bible that considers the human body as the vessel.

All I am saying is you can not condemn the views of others without them condemning your views it is so simple and so obviously a strong point in the Bible.

If some interpretation of the Bible is in contrast to truth it was interpreted wrong for God is all truth. Just because something was not included in the Bible does not mean it is not a truth nor that it did not occur.

Constantine was the one to tell Christians what to include and not include in the Bible and he was not even a Christian but he was the emperor.

If you find as I have that many of the views you hold are in error like I have, you will as I have be so sorry and embarrassed to think who you have hurt in your life as I have. 

I ask forgiveness daily for the pain I have caused in the name of Christ..in my adolescent Christianity.
That is my main and most significant point. hope it helps you understand.
I have and still do use the same prayers you pray and follow the same creed. That is how I came up with my views over 73 yrs.

Edwin, One last thing. A eunuch from birth, which the quote is about, is someone who does not have normal sexual organs. Susan

Well If the Baker was really following His Bible, he would never even put a male and female figure on top of his cakes.

He has not read the 613 commandments, the laws in the OT that seem to be important to him if he feels homosexuality is one of the important taboos he refuses to support.

Yet he is no different then they are, if he bases his beliefs on the same book.

Strange because the Homosexuality is not really addressed as a word in that Bible yet it is perfectly clear about making or using human figures of any kind for decorative purposes.

Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes — Standard->Ex. 20:21 TLT

I really don’t see any laws or commandments that could be interpreted to represent Lesbian activity?  Seems the Baker may be more in violation of God’s laws than the two women….IMO

Also the word Eunuch from birth has been known also as a male or female that can not get sexually stimulated by the opposite sex. It may have been the reason the word homosexual was not necessary in their vocabulary because they already knew it was included in this word.

If we are so concerned about what we call Traditional Marriage, and do not relate to the marriage of Nuns and Priests to the Church as a deviation, and do not consider same gender marriages as desirable, how much less ridiculous is the commandment in Deut 22:29 that states:
a rapist must marry his victim, if she is unwed, and must never divorce her.
Seems that would be a living nightmare and much less desirable to support than for two women that love each other’s company and companionship to marry and maybe even raise children that are adoptable from illegitimate heterosexual accidents. IMO

Edwin,
you constantly quote the Bible, yet when your interpretation of the Bible is challenged, you say the Bible has no authority. Please stop using the Bible. You don’t believe in it or you don’t understand it. Susan

Susan the reason I quote the Bible is because I do believe in it. But the words are at least only symbols, the meaning transcends the symbol. If we worship the words alone, not considering the meaning it is displaced worship and idol worship. IMO

The words in the Bible are not of singular meaning, yet the parallel between :
(Love your neighbor as thyself,
and do unto others as you would have them do unto you,
as well as not to bear false witness
and not to be concerned about the splinter in your neighbors eye until you fix the log in your own eye,
as well as judge not lest ye be judged,)
all basically have the same meaning..in respect to the subject here. IMO
I feel it is being completely overlooked by the Baker. I also feel it is being overlooked by you or you would not have classified me as a non believer in the Bible.
I do not believe in your interpretation. But obviously many greater minds than you and I also disagree or we would only have one Bible and one way to express our faith in that Bible.

I just feel strong not to see minorities being crucified for being different because some do not adhere to their message of Christ that He repeated over and over so it must be important. He basically simplified the commandments reducing them to 10 and the above quotes were His basic concept that seems to be being ignored in this discussion by those that support the view of the Baker. IMO

Like I said the view tends to incite bullying and murder of gays so any contribution by people like you will be judged and I hate to see you so sincere yet get punished for ignoring what your contributing to in the destruction of others.
ha ha but looking at this blog you can’t say I did not make a good old college attempt to express myself about it.

I can only plant seeds if they grow on fertile ground I am thankful.
God has to do the rest.
He is our Judge Susan I know we are both sincere.

God bless you Edwin. Susan Fox

Susan, I am in no way anti Roman Catholic but against political Christianity or religion of any kind. If you are really historically literate at all you would be familiar with this type of religion of which Galileo was a part as well as our Lutheran Brethren, labeled as heretics and of course the heretics were allowed to be tortured by the Pope of this period of history and it the inquisition, in Spain and Portugal were well known, as well as witch burning and even drowning’s in Germany to see if they floated…the sinkers were not guilty the floaters were guilty so they were also killed. 
Link: http://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-figures/spanish-inquisition1.htm

This is why there needs to be room for evolution of ideas that bring us closer to truth and against ethnocentrism and mythology often held because of our lack of knowledge of facts in our worship of the God of Truth. IMO
The Church itself gains credibility as it supports truth and not unfounded dogma and doctrine alone.

\\ of course the
heretics were allowed to be tortured by the Pope\\

Please give the name of ONE pope who allowed the torture of heretics.

Also, give the name of the document and pertinent quote.

Bet you can’t!

Well Dixibehr, sorry I am not an authority on this subject, nor was I there to observe, but did experience some of the apologies in my lifetime and have read some history on the subject. A few that have been involved in this subject, were Pope Gregory xl, Pope Sixtus lv, and Pope Innocent lv but there was of course many more included in the conversation of history. Like I said I can only go with what I have read a have not verified the sources myself. Of course if you want to know you can research it yourself. Pope John Paul seemed to know more about it reference his apologies as well. He has my respect, though I am not one who really knows anything for him to be that excite to know that about me.  .

Oh Dixibehr all you have to do is google the Insurrection and all the links to that. You can also find some on the Roman Catholic part of support for Hitler..even the new Pope Francis may have been involved but do not know if the support is accurate on that or not either.
Hey don’t get me wrong. I am not pointing out the RC as the only one involved historically in evil we all have a part in it. My only point is my emphasis on humility We ALL have fallen short of the Glory of God and that included organizations because we are all human and may have the Inspiration of God but none of us, nor our organizations are perfect. That is why we need each others Mutual respect and humility.
Hey even in my tours overseas, I observed our own military injuring each other fighting over being part of different organizations. The Soldiers picking on Sailors in the street to start fights and injuring each other permanently over what branch of service they were in or what unit they belonged to…stupid stuff so even church denomination is not motivation for evil…well look at even people supporting sports teams injuring each other over a stupid game. It just seems to me now the Democrats and Republicans exemplify this alienation. So our union with God is not the only groups that are guilty of lack of mutual respect. Hey e are American land of the free and the brave…freedom of Religion. Lets get with it.

Well Susan, seems of course, that Jesus was a Jew as you know. Obviously they tend to me more intelligent than us Christians, on a general basis ethically especially. Most of the Jewish Singers selling their music tend to also sell Christian Albums…as well as go to Christian weddings ...so even though they are not Christians, and do not support worshipping of Christ, it does not bother them to show respect and hospitality to those holding Christian views. This of course is also the message that our Christ gave in the Sermon on the Mt…that we tend to ignore as well as the majority of the ten commandments…to support our political and dogmatic, or doctrinal fanaticism vs the message they were to support…hum sort of like Democrat or Republican ignoring they both were established to support America first. Hum