you lose a lot of credibility when you put quotes around marriage.  the right-wing fundamentalist sites stopped that gimmick years ago.  please join them.  it is embarrassing.

“The arguments we’ve been making against same-sex “marriage” are well known. While the Catholic Church has respect, love, pastoral care and compassion for people with homosexual orientation, we believe that homosexual “marriage” is wrong because it gives state approval of an immoral lifestyle involving immoral sexual activity.”

There is no love for gay people from the Catholic Church.  There has been only an attack on innocent people by your organization.  Marriage is NOT a religious institution unless the individuals feel the need to incorporate religion into their ceremony. 

Stop trying to control the lives of others.  There’s nothing immoral about gay people.

Do not edit my post before posting it if it’s even allowed to be published by your editors.

even if you do care, gay marriage will pass.

As a Catholic, I am extremely offended by this attitude.  I find it completely hypocritical that the Catholic Church is so against same-sex marriage, but their own representatives are committing homosexual acts.  And not just homosexual acts, acts against children.  And the Church keeps trying to cover it up.  Disgusting.  And as for the sanctity of marriage, with a 40%-50% divorce rate among heterosexuals, I can’t imagine you’re using them as the shining example for why only men & women should be married.  I personally know gay couples that have been together for 30 and 40 or more years.  Now THAT is what the sanctity of marriage is about.  Staying together through thick and thin, till death do you part.  Frankly, when you find that person, regardless of their gender, they should be allowed to marry.  I’ll end here with 2 things you should read and really think about….Romans 2: 1-3 and Matthew 7:1-5. ——signed, a very heterosexual female who believes love has no bounds.

Hello. My name is Jonathon, and I am a homosexual. I think what the catholic church is doing is completely wrong, and against the bible. I used to be a practicing Catholic. But left the church because I was basically segregated. The Catholic Church made me question the existence of god. It has made me question religion.
But all and all, through everything god has proven him self to me. He has proved to be a loving father. He created me to be gay. To try and stop all the hate that this world has in it against one another.
You are not GOD. Devine holy spirit. You do NOT have the right to Judge human beings.
See, you think its ALL about sex with homosexuals. That their just like rabbits, just want to mate all the time. Then go off on their own business of being gay.
HOW EVER! That is not the case. Being gay is about who you are. You’re personality. It’s what you’re made of. Its everything about you. And Marriage. We take it the same way straight people do. Because regardless of the labels you want to stamp on our fore head. We still are instilled with gods greatest gift to man. The ability to love one another. The kind of passionate love that “straight” people have. Believe it or not, can be found in numerous gay couples. And the ultimate message that gays want to have marriage for is. THE SAME! That straight people get married for. “I love the soul thats with in this human being. So much that I want to be with him/her for the rest of my life.”
See the catholic church also sees that. The human body is nothing than a mere temple. That holds the soul. So, if the catholic church believes this. Than what gender is our souls?

You say that gay marriage is a social evil, or immoral. But the hate that you radiate towards another human being. Just because of who he wants to share his life with. Is the TRUE evil. And this needs to STOP!
God has taught me to love, and accept every one as they are. To not judge. To not think that I am holier than another. That I’m here, as a helper. To love him and accept him into my heart.

I accept god into my heart fully. God is giving me the strength to write this comment.

You can not continue this hate. You can not continue to drive people away from god. Because what you speak you think is the holy truth.
I will pray for all catholics that believe, generating this hate against love. Will stop one day.
Thank you, that is all.

Four of the six new england states? WOAH hold on here, it’s the United states of america, not new england. We kind of became America after we rebelled against the english, we aren’t a part of new england anymore.

Anyways, it doesn’t matter wheather you believe homosexuality is wrong or not. Just leave homosexuals alone, they aren’t being evil. They were born to like the same gender, and if you don’t understand that; fine. But by attempting to stop gay marriage, you are just being mean to the homosexuals. By saying they are evil,  saying they are sinners, ill advised and that itself is being mean, and evil. Don’t forget “do unto others as you would want unto yourself”, would you like it if a gigantic group of people said you couldn’t get married and you were sinners and horrible people?
Just leave the homosexuals alone, they aren’t actually hurting you are they? NO.
It’s not going to effect children either, gay children happen to come from straight couples; so homosexuals will still continue to be born. Plus, by saying that homosexuality is bad. It just makes kids feel like they are horrible for liking the same gender, and they are very likely to commit suicide. Would you like the idea of helping give a kid the idea to kill him/herself?
There is no cure, because you can’t change something that GOD gave you. You guys are just fighting something that God himself gave people, he made you straight and he made people gay.
If you ask me, the only reason why leviticus said what he said was either because he had a bad experience with a homosexual. Or he just didn’t want the population to die out at the time.

How is expecting gays to live by Catholic doctrine discriminating against Catholics?

It’s nonsense like this that caused me to flee the Catholic Church years ago. Seriously, how does same-sex marriage constitute a “social evil” worthy of this kind of fear-mongering? And how does one take this kind of hectoring on sexual morality seriously, coming from a church hierarchy which looked the other way as its priests were engaging in genuinely evil behavior?

So separation of Church and State means .......?  I thought our country was founded by those who wanted religious freedom.  I thought we here in America believed in separation of church and state?  I thought what ones beliefs were their choice not to be forced upon others?  I guess I have been living in lala land for the past 53 years!
Am I in America?

Marriage “since the beginning of time” does not exist—that is a fiction as countless historians of the isntution have proven beyond doubt.  Marriage has meant different things in different cultures including multiple wives, concubines, and it has predominantly been about property.

After the church’s own scandals…no moral authority. At least gay marriage is consensual.

As someone who has been a part of the Catholic community all of my life, I am deeply offended by the fact that an article like this represents the Church in which I grew up. Catholics claim to be close to God, to know of His love and compassion, and yet we are supposed to reject the love that two consenting adults have for one another as immoral? No, I do not believe that God wants that for any of His children, including those who are gay. Also, the Archdiocese of Boston and Washington were not forced to do anything. They both CHOSE to stop delivering services because they did not feel as though gay people DESERVED the same services that are given to straight people every day. To twist that into a matter of force is inaccurate. Rather, it was a matter of the Catholic Church wanting to not look soft on the gay marriage issue, so instead of doing God’s work and continuing to help people in need, it decided to halt delivery of services to everyone and turned its cheek on all of the people of those communities. That act has sickened me more than I can say and has made me ashamed to be a confirmed Catholic at times. I sincerely hope that the Catholic Church will soon wake from all of this hypocrisy and prejudice to understand that God loves ALL of His children and that we should all be afforded the same rights. Gay people are not evil people; the only way in which they are different from heterosexuals is that they love members of their same gender rather than those from the opposite. How can the Church claim to be close to God’s loving ear if it rejects the validity of the love of others?

I wish the Church would focus on love and inclusion, and stop trying to penalize loving couples. Spend positive energy. Send light. Share love. It is the Church’s negative energy that is truly sinful.

First of all, any group of men who choose not to get maried have little understanding of marriage and romantic love and should not attempt to tel people who to marry.
Seconly, an organization which recklessly ignored child abuse for many years is hardly qualified to pontificate about good vs. bad behaviour. The hypocrisy in this church is the reason it is finally dying out. Unless the church accepts theworld that it operates in, it will continue to be irelevant and will not last.

Thank you, Bishop Tobin, for being a non-partisan voice of defense for our Church’s teachings. It shouldn’t matter what party a politician belongs to; if they’re Catholic and violating the Church’s teachings on an issue, they should be challenged.

Politicians tell the public they’re good Catholics, but so few will embrace every teaching in their ministry for fear that their party will oust them as not liberal/conservative enough. This shouldn’t matter, we’re not in grade school anymore; if you want your primary identifier to be Catholic, then you shouldn’t care if the other boys and girls in politics won’t let you play with them.

DEAR BISHOP TOBIN:

The United States of America is not a theocracy. Perhaps you would be happier if it was. Perhaps you would like it if this country was renamed The United States of Christ. Until that happens, you must accept the fact persons of ALL belief systems (whether Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Christians, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Pagans, etc.) are on equal legal footing.

It would appear obvious that YOUR church would not be particularly welcoming to Gay individuals, particularly Gay couples, and that YOUR church is opposed to supporting marriage equality for Gay Americans. But other Christians and congregations are more supportive and accepting. Are you suggesting that only YOUR views should apply to the formulation of public policy?

Why is it that Straight couples are encouraged to date, get engaged, marry and build lives together in the context of monogamy and commitment, and that this is a GOOD thing … yet for Gay couples to do exactly the same is somehow a BAD thing? To me this seems like a very poor value judgment.

Here is my advice to you: Your faith is a personal matter. And if your personal faith informs you that Gay relationships (no matter how monogamous or long-term) are anathema, you are welcome to conduct your personal life as you see fit. You do not have the right to demand that persons of other faiths do the same.

When marriage equality for Gay couples finally becomes a reality (and it eventually will), I can promise you with 100% certainty that it will not affect your life, your marriage, your church, or your children ONE BIT. You will never have to worry about being denied a job or your love because of YOUR sexual orientation. Your church will never be forced to marry Gay couples, any more than it is forced to marry non-Catholic couples.

Perhaps the best thing for you to do when it comes to your dealings with Gay individuals and couples is simply to obey The Golden Rule: Treat them as you yourself would wish to be treated

When will you all realize that marriage can only be allowed if the STATE recognizes it. It is a state function that happens to have a religious component, not the other way around. Any marriage performed in a Catholic Church WILL NOT be recognized unless the state sanctions it with a valid marriage certificate. Technicalities aside, your use of quote marks around marriage is demeaning and cruel, and your attitudes are, well, just plain outdated, and will succumb to change you cannot stop.

To misuse the word “gay” as in the headline is very offence to the people that have Gay in their name. As Catholics, we should be more sensitive to these people and only use words as they are meant to be used. Words do kill. As for those people that think “marriage” by anyone or anything other than a man or woman, will have their eternal life in hell to “enjoy” it. GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED!! Thank God that we still have the Roman Catholic Church to give us the truth and nothing but the truth! Come Lord Jesus, Come.  +JMJ+

Anything less than full marriage equality for gay people is an affront to the ideal that America’s principles defend the right of every man, woman, and child to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

“Unless the Church accepts the world…” Nonsense.
The Church isn’t a democracy. Deal with it.
The Church isn’t supposed to “accept” the world. It’s supposed to enlighten the world. And challenge the world. And COUNTER the world.
As for the nonsense about “Church people have committed immoral acts, therefore the Church has no moral authority”? Ohhhhh…kay. Then you don’t have to obey civil laws, either, since the people making them have committed immoral acts. Try using that argument in a court of law after you’re arrested. See how far you get.

Most of the blather printed here is clearly the product of people “educated” (and yes, the quotes belong there, because they weren’t educated in ANY sense) in the public school system. They know nothing about proving a point through logic, only emotional attack. They know nothing about what the Bible actually SAYS about homosexuality, or they wouldn’t see the Church’s stand as wrong…but as Biblical. (Or do you consider the book of Romans “some obscure book of the Bible” as our fearless Obama does? Yeah. Right.) And the fact that some of the people espousing homosexual marriage here claim to be Catholics????

The very presence of such arguments proves how far our country, and our Church, has strayed from truth. Fortunately, this bishop’s trying to provide some leadership that’s authentically Catholic. Predictably, he and the Church he faithfully represents will be attacked. It’s called “persecution,” folks, and if you’re not experiencing it, you’re probably part of the problem, not the solution.

Homosexuals have no right to marriage. Period. They cannot fulfill its functions, even in a civil and social sense. Their unions are fruitless and—the truth that no “gay” activist will admit to except off the record—usually not monogamous in the conventional, normal, logical understanding of the word. “Monogamous” in the homosexual community doesn’t mean what it does in the heterosexual community…just so you know. But you’ll never hear or learn THAT in a public school system, either.

Just as you’ll never learn that there is no such thing as “separation of Church and state” in the Constitution. The Constitution says Congress shall neither establish a state religion nor prevent the free expression of same; it never says, nor did it ever MEAN to say, that religion and faith should be kept out of public affairs and government. In fact, if you read one iota of the documents of the early founding Fathers, you’ll see exactly the opposite was the case: references to the Creator and to God are all over the place. If we truly believe that the founders of this country intended to take religion OUT of the founding…we’re not reading them correctly.

But, again, why should we be surprised, when the atheists have taken over the education of our young people and replaced logic and fact with opinion, propaganda, and emotion?  We’re reaping what we sowed; we just didn’t realize what that was, because smarter minds than ours (people who actually READ the Constitution and didn’t like it one bit) told us lies about what was “intended” in the founding of our country—and, let’s face it, in our Church as well.

Learn for yourself. Read the actual documents. Read actual Church documents and doctrine. Read the Bible without a liberal social-justice-is-all-that-matters interpretation breathing over your shoulder. And think. If you still can.

As a life long Catholic who struggles mightily to follow Christ’s example, it saddens me that the institutional Church has lost its moral authority because it appears more interested in holding on to patriarchal power in loving and embracing all of God’s children. I would be thrilled to hear the bishops uniformly condemn the behavior of sex abusing priests and the subsequent cover up. I would praise any bishop or priest who followed Christ’s message to love the poor by condemning the greed that seems to require the rich to make 40 or 50 times more than the laborers that work for them. Instead, I am sick at heart to witness the hierarchy in this country turn away gay and lesbians by making these people feel so unwelcome. The arrogant, power hungry, patriarchy that spews specious screeds to defend their decidedly un-Christlike behavior needs to examine their conscience and make an effort to act more the Christ I have met in the Gospels.

To all the homosexualist militants here:

Has some militant site organized a patrol of ncregister?

You are flooding us with homosexualist comments, and this is ridiculously
out of proportion with the views of the overall population, let alone
the church-going Catholic population.

Are you monitoring this site?

The church will eventually come around on this. It might even only take another two hundred years instead of five :)

As if being a Catholic Bishop and not denouncing predatory sexual abuse is not an immoral lifestyle condoning immoral sexual behavior! What was that saying about throwing rocks and glass houses!

Seriously?

OK, Catholics.  None of you have any right to insult anyone else’s beliefs or life-choices while you’re following a religion that not only /allows/ but /ENDORSES/ child molestation.

End of rant.

Articles like this, clearly articulating a church position that is inconsistent with our understanding of a loving God, along with the decades of clerical abuse of vulnerable children have caused me to walk away from the Catholic Church.  It is not surprising, given the official positions that devalue women, clearly fail to protect children, and apologize for or excuse abuse of power at the highest levels - but it is shameful for bishops, archbishops and the church hierarchy to attempt to influence political decisions in such a manner.  Where are they when politicians are hacking at benefits for the poor, or services for victims, or substandard living conditions and slums in this or other countries?  Where IS the outrage against violence, either in the streets of American slums or in wars overseas?  Children continue to be abused - and priests are still protected.  When I left my abusive, alcoholic husband (in part to protect my children), I was counseled by a priest that “all of those issues can be resolved, and the marriage saved” - advise that I did not take, in the interest of survival.  I was shocked that priests, who clearly lacked understanding of marriage, were in a position to give such misguided advice. 
I may attend a Catholic Church on rare occasions, for family reasons, but can’t and won’t condone the hateful, condescending treatment from the leadership - when the church fully embraces the gifts and talents of the men and women called to ministry (married, single, gay or straight); when its leaders value, cherish and protect the vulnerable; and when the church remembers that it is built on the word and sacrifice of Jesus, then I will return and celebrate.  I doubt that any of this will happen in my lifetime.

Thank you Bishop Tobin, you are an awesome Shepard!

I have to comment, I am an extremely happy married woman, who for many years previously lived a lesbian lifestyle.  There are so many things being said here that I wish I could address, but don’t have the time.  I will try to address them in my blog soon.

The most important thing I wish to share is that while so many feel like it is fine to pick and choose which Truths, which teachings of the Catholic Church they wish to follow, there will come a day, or hour that all truth will be revealed to each of us.

I experienced that day when close to dying, the very idea that I would be standing before Truth Himself and would have to account for my choices, would have to try to explain to my Creator, my Lord, and God that ...” yes Lord, I was told my lifestyle was a sin, and ummm errrrr, well, I thought You wouldn’t mind, after all, didn’t You make me this way?”  It didn’t sound convincing to my own heart, and I knew in my soul, it wasn’t going to be convincing to Him!

@Jonathon, I agree, homosexuals are not sex machines, the care and love is much deeper, and can last a lifetime.  In fact, most of my gay/lesbian friends seemed to be more companion couples, with affection vs. a great deal of “sexual” intimacy.  Trust me, I wanted it to be Okay to marry my partner, but it wasn’t that it was against the law, it was against God, I knew it then, and hated it, fought with God about it, but there is one thing none of us on earth can claim, and that is that we know better than God does.  We are His children, and like it or not, it is His to determine how He creates us.

THE Catholic Church, (meaning the actual doctrine, not individuals who take positions that cause such struggle, as mentioned in one post about Boston… which I am not aware of personally.), teaches that sexual intimacy outside of The Sacrament of Marriage is a sin.  This is not just directed at homosexuals, it includes civil marriages, co-habitation, friends with benefits, etc.  Homosexuals, like the rest of us, (even married,) are called to be chaste.

If one actually learns the reasons, studies both the Bible and the Catechism, one can come to understand that it is God who established this, not The Catholic Church.

Father Mitch Pacwa has a great saying, “It’s a Management Issue…” meaning that it is not something ANY human person can change.  This is a Management Issue.  Bishop Tobin is middle management, it is his job to make sure the message of our Boss (God) is communicated.  Marriage is a Sacrament, a God Given Grace.  State sanctioned unions or marriages mock what our Creator designed us for.

In conclusion, I just want to say that this life is fleeting, Eternity isn’t, We are on a journey here on earth, our choices have consequences, if not here, then in Eternity.

God bless you Bishop Tobin, and everyone on both sides of this issue.  I pray that God will touch your hearts, and that all will be open to His Will.

I agree very much with the sentiment that if we don’t care, it will pass.  If we look at the polls (most of which are very unreliable) and decide that the war for morality is lost, then we are fools.  We must fight and as this year has shown, we can win some pretty remarkable battles when we put our minds to it!

Ah yes, we should discriminate against people who want to embrace monogamy.

How about we deal with all these pedophile priests instead?

I’d rather focus on stopping priests from buggering little kids than worry about my two gay neighbors and their absolute civil right to marry.

I think the church does more damage by trying to stop christian behavior.

Grow up. Show me one verse where Jesus condemns Homosexuality.

Anything prior to Jesus was written in an attempt to control the populous and stop people from buggering animals.

It’s common sense.

God bless you, Your Excellency! Christ promised His followers that the world would hate them and told us that those who are persecuted in His holy name are blessed indeed. Thank you for your courageous stand!

Not that its anyones business, whom a person chooses to spend their life with. It must be said that the outspoken ourtrage clearly says more abiut the insecurity of those speaking out utilizing religion as the lame fallback defense, and. Always neglecting the role religion has played in the all of the most unspeakable crimes against humainty. Unified we rainbows will stand with or without consent of the ignorance of those truly be beneath us!

Love God first! (a quote from Jesus) The Church shows us the way to Christ. If we follow its dogma we will be happy forever in the presence of God! No matter what passes as law, marriage is between one man and one woman. It is what it is, not what we want it to be.

Love?! Who do we love? When we love each other we offer each other heaven. If we could not have sex anymore with someone we love would we throw them away? No! So what does love have to do with sex?

This is about sex. Any type of sex out of the sacrament of marriage mocks the institution.

This is about all of us who mock marriage on a daily basis. We all do it or have done it!

Chastity is a gift. Only secular society says otherwise. Straight people not in the sacrament are to practice chastity as well: as are all of us who are not in the sacrament.

This mocking marriage started in the 60’s: free love (i.e. sex & using each other as objects…it’s not free as it kills our relationship with God.) these individuals have made their way through the straight persons, and are now aiming at the gay ones as well as teaching our young children to use each other as well. We are all being used for a larger agenda.

If a husband and wife Glorify God when they have sex together- than what does all else accomplish?

Ps For all of you claiming that you used to be Catholic… If you truly understood the gift that Jesus left us in the church you would have never left it. You are missing out…come back home!

And yes, there are the individuals in the church who make us feel bad about ourselves…it is not the church. There are tons of self-righteous individuals in the world…not just the church.

Years ago I used to think that I was a good person- I was just self righteous.

Loving one another is not enabling one another :(

What ever happened to separation of church and state?  That is the way our government should be ran - gay marriage is a civil right that has been denied for too long.  I love G-d but I love equality just as much.

Jesus said: “Love unto others as you would love yourself”. I think all you Catholics missed that one? I was once a practicing Catholic. I am now a proud transgender man. I love with all the love in my heart, just as every other human under God’s creation. Why are you allowed to judge me for who I love? You aren’t. As a matter of fact according to your religion ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE.
How about you worry a little more about your pedophile priest problem than you do about MY life. Had you done that the priest who abused me never would have met me. That isn’t meant for shock value, just absolute truth. You moved him to 12 different parishes before you finally took away his right to perform Mass. But until the day he died, in immense pain, alone and suffering, you hid his evil. And you didn’t care. Why all of a sudden do you care so much about an issue that doesn’t affect you in the least??? Get over your hatred of homosexuals….last time I checked HATE was still EVIL.
God will judge in the end. I feel pretty secure that I will be judged a decent person. I doubt you will.

How convenient to label people and items as “evil.” It makes it soooo much easier to demonize them and stir up hatred. In much the same way you stiltingly refer to “marriage,” this to me is “Christianity” at its absolute nadir.

I am a Catholic and I thank you Bishop Tobin. God bless you and keep up the good work!!!

Dear Joan, If you are waiting for the secular media to share the outrage of The Catholic Church to victims of violence, cutting benefits, and discrimination etc. then you are never going to find it. However, there are, and always have been active positions from the top down on all of these subjects. Just last night the World Over did an incredible hour on the Catholic Bishops activism in Sudan!
I am a grateful woman, who does not see how The Catholic Church devalues woman. In fact, it is the opposite, The Church values woman very much. 
It is easy to cast stones, and false accusations from the outside.  Might I suggest you read a few encyclicals on Woman?  As a wise man once said, know your history, do your research! It might surprise you.

Marriage equality, in no way, shape or form, presents any challenges to religious freedom.  In any state where it has become law, religions are protected from having any responsibility to marry anyone they do not wish to.

Articles like this make me embarrassed and ashamed to have been raised Catholic.  Shame on the Catholic church for spewing hatred that goes against the very nature of what they preach. 

In the end, love will conquer their hatred.

Once again the confused, leftist, anti-Catholic bigots clog the combox.

Confusing the teaching of the Church with the actions of sinful priests.  Conflating the immorality of homosexual activity with the actions of a pedophile priest?

If you would stop letting the leftist media do you thinking for you and step back it would become clear how stupid your arguments are.

I support Bishop Tobin and the Church.

Fix your own REAL sexual evils in your own Church before pointing at REAL love and its true expression as an example of social evil. This article and anyone who believes in the argument presented is living in the past where the few on pedestals think they can control and dictate and the choices of others. Go live your own lives and leave others to live theirs with the same choices and rights. Why do people need to control others so much? They will find no peace through this fight.

They must have announced this article in a homosexualist
website.

This kind of attitude - mass-trolling websites you disagree with - only shows their side is wrong.

Not to mention the truly dictatorial attitudes against those who voted for California’s prop 8. People lost their jobs because they defended family.

Christians are not known for giving up easily, though.

Let’s hope that gay “marriage” doesn’t become the law. It will sever the relationshiop between parents and children, will aim to make gender irrelevant, will discriminate against people of all faiths and none, will lead to more promiscuity in real marriage and will send the message that children, committment and moral sexual relations are imaginary and wrong. In another word, it will eventually lead to the very thing that all parents and indeed all responsible civic minded people try to avoid: the disintegration of our society and more and more political extremism. To put gay sex on par with normal intercourse is sheer lunacy.

There are two separate issues here: First, whether same-sex relationships are acceptable according to Church doctrine. Currently they are not. Okay, fine. But the LEGAL issue is, whether the Church has the right to stop people from doing what the Church sees as immoral. The answer, of course, is NO. Otherwise, why does the Church not try to get divorce outlawed, or adultery, or remarriage, or pre-marital sex? Or contraception, for that matter? All these things are considered sexual sins of a mortal nature. Are some sins more mortal than others? (By the way, if you are going to respond to this comment, no need to answer that last question, which is obviously rhetorical. Please answer the one that begins with the word ‘otherwise’)

It’s repulsive, at this point, to see senior Church figures act so swiftly to deny people love when they sat on their hands for decades over allegations of cruelty and abuse.

“We believe that homosexual “marriage” is wrong because it gives state approval of an immoral lifestyle involving immoral sexual activity.”

That may be what you believe, Bishop Thomas Tobin, but as the mother of a daughter who has been in a committed relationship with the same woman for 15 years and a son who has been in a committed relationship with the same man for 12 years, I do not see gays involved in immoral sexual activity anymore than I have seen straight married couples involved in immoral sexual activity—and I’ve seen plenty of that!

Bishop, get down on your knees and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into truth on this matter. I used to believe what you believe, until God’s Spirit showed me through my own children that I was the victim of incorrect thinking.

If the Catholics think gay marriage is such a social evil, why don’t they do what they do with other social evils (e.g., pedaphilia) and just ignore it?

You religious fanatics are out of your minds…
You’re lame hateful people who justify anything you do, or avoid any sort of change in the world, using a silly novel called the bible.
  There is no logical explanation in the world for why there shouldn’t be freedom in this regard. Unless, once again, you consider one line in that silly book to be the determining factor of how the whole world should act, forever. How narcissistic of you!
    And don’t give this priest any credit or blame: he’s been in this system his entire life. Indoctrination since he was a baby. He’s drank the cool-aid and associates any homosexual acts as ‘evil’... which, of course, has zero basis in logic or anything else.
  Again, this is becoming incredibly humorous! You guys are lame and hypocritical to boot!
    Enjoy your ridiculous and hateful lifestyle… Going into stone buildings pretending to talk to a man in the sky and passing judgement on the rest of the world… Go nuts! Enjoy your schizophrenia! But stop shoving your crap down normal people’s throats… your lame time of control is over… You cannot show a shred of evidence to any of your power based lies! And until you do, you’re still a joke…

@janetfernandez

> “First, whether same-sex relationships are acceptable according to Church doctrine. Currently they are not.”

They have been condemned since the times of Genesis and will still be condemned in 4000 AD.

> “But the LEGAL issue is, whether the Church has the right to stop
people from doing what the Church sees as immoral.”

You completely missed the point. The Church has no army and no police. She doesn’t directly police anyone. But the Church can SPEAK and indirectly influence public opinion and therefore public laws. If you are against this role of the Church, then I assume you are also again the influence of Sierra Club, Greenpeace, etc.

Explain to me why the Church should not influence public opinion but hundreds of NGOs can.

The answer, of course, is
NO. Otherwise, why does the Church not try to get divorce outlawed, or
adultery, or remarriage, or pre-marital sex? Or contraception, for that
matter? All these things are considered sexual sins of a mortal nature. Are
some sins more mortal than others? (By the way, if you are going to respond
to this comment, no need to answer that last question, which is obviously
rhetorical. Please answer the one that begins with the word ‘otherwise’)

@janetfernandez

> “First, whether same-sex relationships are acceptable according to Church doctrine. Currently they are not.”

They have been condemned since the times of Genesis and will still be condemned in 4000 AD.

> “But the LEGAL issue is, whether the Church has the right to stop
people from doing what the Church sees as immoral.”

You completely missed the point. The Church has no army and no police. She doesn’t directly police anyone. But the Church can SPEAK and indirectly influence public opinion and therefore public laws. If you are against this role of the Church, then I assume you are also again the influence of Sierra Club, Greenpeace, etc.

Explain to me why the Church should not influence public opinion but hundreds of NGOs can.

Just a note, the Church did try to keep divorce-on-demand from being permitted. Ditto for contraception. And we were largely ignored - both by Catholics who care more for their own desires than for the teaching of the Church and by the rest of the secular world.

Marriage was described by someone earlier as uniting two persons of the opposite sex to become one. 
Marriage is not uniting two persons of the same sex to become one.
Therefore two persons of the same sex can never marry.
How simple is that!

A few months ago Johnette Benkovic had several people on her TV program who have study the homosexual issue.  What was revealed was that not only is this a moral problem for anyone who considers themselves Christian but also a physical and psychological one and needs to be fully discussed.  It is always out of love for others that we promote morality.  There is no evidence, dispite numerous studies, that a homosexual gene exists. In addition to listening to what other knowledgable people have said I also read “Beyond Gay” which I strongly encourage others to do. Every natural law will have to be changed to accomodate this select group.  Recently another diocese has stopped assisting children in need of foster homes and those seeking adoptions because the law now states they would have to place these children in a homosexual enviroment.  Freedom of religion is in jeopardy.  These couples could go to a gov. agency but instead, to the detriment of children, perfer to have religious institutions closed.  I know some gay men who are loving and kind but live with depression and illness. Why can’t we have open discussions without the hatefullness displayed in some many of the comments written?

Nick my friend I have absolutely no use for Greenpeace or Sierra Club, and I have no problem with the Church or any other organization or individual expressing their opinion or belief. I simply cannot comprehend why this is such an important issue, above any and all other mortal sins. Please answer the question that begins with the word ‘otherwise’. You can’t. No one can.

Why does the Church not try to get divorce outlawed, or
adultery, or remarriage, or pre-marital sex? Or contraception, for that
matter? All these things are considered sexual sins of a mortal nature.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/if-we-dont-care-gay-marriage-will-pass/#ixzz1OEzh7dBM

I am not a Catholic but I support and respect the RCC’s holding the line on sexual morality.

I’m reading the responses here and am shocked at what some of the supporters of Tobin are actually saying. None of the hateful accusations against gays has no parallel with anything that Christ taught us. Nor does it agree with our constitution.

To make the blanket claims about gays being evil and should not be allowed in any way to love each other is neither Christian or American. This is exactly why we need gay marriage. I have no intention of ever getting married, but if it passes and one homosexually inclined child knows there’s an alternative to a lifetime of hate and stigma, without an eternity of condemnation, it’ll be worth it. If one gay spouse in a hospital has his wishes granted to be with his/her spouse and have that spouse participate in care, it’ll be worth it.

None of the fears that Tobin is mongering have ever come true either. I was raised in the catholic church and cannot begin to describe how terrifying, lonely and degrading it was to realize that the person I grew up to be was someone so reviled by my church.

It is time for gays to have every right that straight people have. If the church does not want to perform weddings, fine, but stay out of my bedroom and clean up your own confessionals.

Okay.  I never comment on these things, but here goes…I’m someone who has struggled with Same Sex Attraction my entire life.  And to say the least, I drank mightly from the cup of the world. I lived as an openly gay male for a decade, and in every respect that decade was my darkest days.  It was during that time that I lost all sense of a moral compass.  Why is this important?  Oh I’m sure that there are many homosexuals on here who will denounce this and discredit anything that I have to say…not that I’m really saying anything except that not everyone who struggles with SSA embraces the lies of the world. 
For so long I wanted truth and I found truth..a living, breathing actual truth in the sacraments.  I found that the Church the world presented is far from the actual Church.  That Our Lord has given us a wonderful gift in the sacraments that, despite the failings of the men and women in leadership positions, still sanctifies the souls who partake of them.
Now that I’ve converted to the Church, and I see the world for what it is, my heart is heavy for all the lies that I espoused.  However, I know that our Lord is merciful and loving, and there is no end to the depths of His love. 
My fellow Catholics—my brothers and sisters—please know that there are men and women who have repudiated the lies of homosexual activists.  We need your prayers, your support, and your friendship.  To my fellow Catholics who have abandoned the faith and have embraced the spirit of the world know this: You are just one confession away from full communion with the Church.

Thanks Bishop for your kind words and teachings.  I will offer my prayers and sacrifices for you.

After reviewing the comments to date, I am impressed.  My earlier comments apparently were not published even though the above comments contain much stronger language than did mine.  My earlier points were all about logic and how no religion has rule over secular law that affects non-church members.  All my points were addressed across a variety of the responses published, so no need to repeat them.  I am impressed with the number of people who have stated they are Catholic yet support same-sex marriage.  It seems there is a rift between the official policy of the church and the beliefs of many of its members.  But, for me, what it boils down to is simply this:  The church does not have a dog in this fight.  I am not a member of your church so why should my secular marriage recognized by the State be the business of a church to which I do not belong?  I do not really care if a Rabbi or Mullah recognizes my marriage.  Why should I care if the Catholic church does or does not?  What any church does is between the church and its members but it has no bearing (or should not) on my life.  I will admit that I do tire at parties and events when my ex-Catholic friends drone on about how they are “recovering Catholics,” but, of course, as a friend I am there to support them which mostly is just listening to them vent.

“Explain to me why the Church should not influence public opinion but hundreds of NGOs can.”

No reason the church can’t influence, but to impose your religious standards on others is against the constitution. To then go ahead on a campaign that includes slanderous and subjective information without acknowledging the pain that the denial of love is causing is abhorrent and inconsistent with any part of the bible.

I grew up with the guilt, fear, loneliness and indignity of the stigma that the Catholic Church has forced on me. To see it in action at my statehouse while being blamed for the downfall of society is outrageous.

This is exactly what Jesus fought.

It’s also exactly what our founding fathers fought.

The arguments have no leg to stand on, particularly when it takes this much Unchristian and Unconstitutional behavior to instigate.

Right on, Bishop Tobin!

How can we be said to care for those who struggle with same-sex attractions if we do not fight this evil in our society? How much easier would it be for people to give into those attractions if society says, “there’s nothing wrong with it.” A Catholic who truly loves his brother would fight against any law legalizing so-called same-sex marriage.

Love is not a social evil. Hatred and discrimination - those are social evils.

Encouraging solid, loving commitments between two people who care very much about each other makes society stronger. Please stop trying to damage the fabric of our families - and our society - with your prejudice.

Joseph R:  Well stated.  It is a fine line that churches must walk.  We look at civil rights for blacks in the 1960’s and certainly many of the pivotal efforts came from the churches (although, probably not the RCC, to my recollection).  But, those rights back then were to free people and become more embracing.  The RCC of today with their stand on same-sex marriage is the opposite.  I think one “tipping point” is when the RCC donates money, that could be used in so many better ways, to hate groups such as the National Organization for Marriage (NOM).  The Southern Poverty Law Center named NOM a hate group for their actions.  Their directors are/have been employed by the RCC and we all know the RCC has dumped a ton of money into the NOM effort in my home State of Maine to repeal a secular law enacted by the Legislature and signed into law by the Governor.  It was an appalling breach of separation of church and state.  When a church gets this involved in politics, it should give up its tax-free status, register as a PAC, and be on a level playing field like the rest of the lobbyists.  After that vote, I felt like a second-class citizen.  My partner of 13 years and our daughter, 10 years of age, now were considered not worthy of the same secular rights enjoyed by other families.  I never will forget or forgive the role the RCC played in this shameful action.  Their hypocrisy is beyond measure.

@janetfernandez

> “Nick my friend I have absolutely no use for Greenpeace or Sierra Club”

These were just two examples; the point is that militant atheists think that religious doctrines should be verboten from public life, but somehow secular doctrines (Marxism, environmentalism, ...) are OK. In short, these people don’t want to live in a free, democratic society that respects all its citizens and allow them all to participate in the government. They want a government in which only secular doctrines count, irrespective of the voters’ will.

> “I simply cannot comprehend why this is such an important issue, above any and all other mortal sins.”

You are doubly wrong. First, the Church does not “focus” on homosexuality. Try going to a Democratic political rally, and then to a Catholic Mass. Measure how often they speak about homosexuality in each place. I would bet that the Democrats win by a factor of at least 20.

If someone is obsessed with same-sex-marriage, it is certain political militants, not the Church.

Second, different sins have indeed different seriousness. There are 4 sins that, according to the Bible, cry to Heaven for justice.

http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=29

What’s more, the seriousness of a sin is not the only consideration in making public policy. For example, apostatizing is a mortal sin, while smoking in public is a minor sin. However, the Church supports religious freedom (so apostasy must not be a civil crime). So the serious sin is sometimes tolerated by the state, while a minor sin is not. As St Thomas Aquinas used to say in the 13th century: not all sins must be crimes.

For more elaboration, please read about political philosophy.

Finally: the Church does not defend making sodomy illegal; it merely opposes active government support for sodomy.

You should at least know the Church’s arguments before you refute them.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

Thank you, Bishop Tobin, for standing up for true marriage. The commenters on this page have no understanding of morality or marriage. It’s quite sad to see the level of ignorance being displayed in the comment boxes; however, I am not at all surprised. @Janny (posted at 9:48 AM): you took the words out of my mouth! Thank you for saying them.

@Joseph R Yungk

>> “Explain to me why the Church should not influence public opinion but hundreds of NGOs can.”

> “No reason the church can’t influence, but to impose your religious standards on others is against the constitution.”

Who is imposing anything? The Church merely speaks, and then the VOTERS decide.

> “To then go ahead on a campaign that includes slanderous and subjective information”

It is not slanderous nor subjective.

> ” without acknowledging the pain that the denial of love is causing”

If you meet a person addicted to heroine, the act of love is saying “stop this, brother! You are killing yourself”. Saying “don’t feel guilty, don’t mind people who say this is wrong. God made you this way” is an act of cowardice. The same applies for homosexuality.

Did you know that men-who-have-sex-with-men have 10-20 years less life expectancy? Did you know their AIDS rate is 50 times worse? Check the CDC.

> “is abhorrent and inconsistent with any part of the bible.”

Actually, the Bible speaks against homosexuality as an enormous sin. All over the Bible - several books of the Old Testament, several books of New Testament. Books written in different cultures, in different times.

Claiming that the Bible condones homosexuality is absolutely absurd.

God bless you, Nate! I will pray for your continued fight against sin—a fight we all have to engage in, regardless of our particular inclinations.

And God bless Bishop Tobin and the Catholic Church, which is the last bastion for morality left in the world.

To Nate! Right on my Brother! God bless you and keep you! If you read my first post, I too walked that walk, but your post was so much better than mine! Thank you for your wonderful post!  Pax Christi

It’s not so much a question of whether you believe same-sex couples should have equal protection under the law, but whether or not the Constitution of the United States demands it.  Catholic churches would not be forced into performing these unions, and therefore it is not a Catholic issue.  Thank God our country has a clear and defined stance on the separation of Church and State, whereby no one belief system can force their beliefs or agendas on others.  Remember—there was a time when Catholics were denied the privilege to vote.  And now it’s time for gays and lesbians to be allowed the God-given right to marriage.

@Joseph R Yungk

> “None of the hateful accusations against gays has no parallel with anything that Christ taught us.”

I haven’t seen all the comments, but I have seen nothing hateful among the Christian commentaries I read. I do know, however, that the homosexual militancy has a strategy of labeling any dissent “hatred”. This is the “shut up” strategy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHgUE9AD4s

> “Nor does it agree with our constitution.”

Why? Do you think same-sex “marriage” is a constitutional right?

> “To make the blanket claims about gays being evil and should not be allowed in any way to love each other”

We never said that; we just say the the STATE must not impose acceptance of homosexuality, through the redefinition of marriage, and through “gay-positive” school curriculum that indoctrinate children from age 7.

> “If one gay spouse in a hospital has his wishes granted to be with his/her spouse”

That could very well be accomplished with a figure of “legal partnership” or something like it. No need to redefine marriage and allow babies to be adopted in the name of two men who sodomize each other.

> “but stay out of my bedroom”

No one is in your bedroom. Sodomy is legal for a long time.

> “and clean up your own confessionals.”

Do you have any better argument than repeating New York Times accusations? Statistics tell that Catholics confessionals are far safer than public schools, and even safer than the kids’s homes. See http://www.themediareport.com/

The greater portion of the shame falls in the secular world, not us.

The fact the militants can only make slanderous accusations, and not debate facts and reason, shows a pattern. They speak about “tolerance”, but this is what they do in practice:

http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=california+prop+8+harass

Check what is happening to Churches worldwide. Just one example: http://www.speroforum.com/a/50175/Leftist-lesbians-strip-at-Catholic-church-in-Spain

These militants are about as tolerant as the KKK or the Black Panthers.

Fellow Catholics, I hate to break the bad news, but this issue might yet be decided on an old, old, old and long-treasured American principle, one that inspired our forefathers, particularly New England colonists, to take up arms against George III and Parliament; “No taxation without representation.”
  Of course i’m not saying homosexuals aren’t allowed to participate in political activity or even the Church and voice their opinions on the matter. It’s simpler than that: If homosexuals decide to sue for the right to marry, all they have to do is say, “Look, how can you collect taxes from us and still deny us the same rights as heterosexuals have?”
  It’s not what I want, or don’t want to see happen, in this matter: but we have to acknowledge, however willingly or grudgingly, that the government has no right barring people of basic civil rights, based on grounds of race, gender or sexual orientation after it has taken taxes from them.  This little old but quite popular and patriotically sentimental slogan still packs as much power as a musket ball fired from behind a New England rock wall.

I think all same-sex “marriage” stories should come with this link:

http://frexpression.wordpress.com/2010/10/20/a-gay-man-decries-gay-rights/

This is a reasonable response, written by a peaceful homosexual atheist to the totalitarian militants.

He shows that homosexuals should be simply left alone (which they already are), and the militancy should stop trying to push things like “gay positive curriculum” and same-sex-marriage.

And he specifically warns against the disrespectful attacks on religion that are found in homosexual literature. He warns that it will backfire.

Considering that the actual history of marriage is horribly tarnished and includes church sanctioned husbands with multiple wives, forced marriages for family reasons, and Old Testament attitudes that consider women to be the possessions of their spouse it’s hard to take this article seriously.

Harkening to “traditional” marriage doesn’t mean much. Where is the Catholic Church positioned on divorce? On drive-by marriage in Las Vegas? On “open” marriages and swingers? The myth of some glorious institute of marriage is absurd. Two consentual adults who want to spend their lives together in love is what it is and to select one group of them, yet forget history and current straight marriage problems and bash homosexuals stinks of selective enforcement of so-called morals. All this from a collective that has been sweeping rape of children under the rug for decades if not centuries.

Quit fighting this silly fight and start moving towards true love and compassion.

All I can say is that while I respect the beliefs of the Catholic Church, it is stepping into a powder keg by including itself in a political and secular argument. It will backfire. Because as I understand it, there are some other things - rather shady - involved with how the Catholic church is fighting marriage equality. And when it comes out - because it will - the Catholic church is going to lose a LOT of stature.

“...it is an attempt to redefine the institution of marriage as it has been understood since the beginning of time.” Really? This is the first redefinition? If marriage has never been redefined, then obviously, it is illegal for blacks to marry whites, and women are still property of their husbands. Oh wait. Things have changed. For the BETTER. If the Catholic Church doesn’t catch up, they’re going to go the way of other outdated religions that refused to change with the times. After all, no one sacrifices to Zeus anymore, and if the Catholic Church keeps offending everyone—even your own church-goers—your churches will be empty too.

Didn’t you all know that in America we only have one religion and are ruled by it?
Well. . .welcome to the land of the “free”. Where Bishops are “free” to rape children under their care and “free” to control everyone’s lives as they break our laws and damage people beyond any saving without any repercussions. However, if you’re not a Bishop then you are not “free” to do that. . .

I am so deeply offended by this article, it’s difficult to know where to even begin. I will start by acknowledging that am I an ex-Catholic that left the church many years ago in utter disgust at its homophobic policies and practices. To this day I refuse to step foot inside a Catholic church given the current leadership of the church which appalls me to the core.

The constant use of “quotes” around “gay marriage” in this article is extremely embarrassing and ridiculous. In case the author hasn’t noticed, same-sex “marriage” is LEGAL in multiple states in the USA and around the world. That’s right, it’s not a joke - it’s a LEGAL REALITY. The complete disrespect for LAW displayed in this article is, however, totally consistent with the Catholic Church’s general lack of respect for SOCIETAL LAWS - and we all know what I mean by that.

What is truly sad is that a majority of Catholic individuals actually support marriage equality. They are, however, let down by the leadership of the church time and time again through its grotesque support of discrimination against same-sex couples. What needs to happen for the sexist and homophobic leadership of the Catholic Church to finally end this WAR against a group of people - CREATED BY GOD - who just happen to be different in one small way? STOP THIS NONSENSE!

Please. Face reality. The war is already over. Marriage equality is now favored by a majority of Americans. The younger generation overwhelmingly supports equality for same-sex couples. The writing is on the wall. Same-sex marriage will one day be LEGAL in ALL states in the USA. So why continue to waste your time, money and energy opposing the inevitable? If you don’t think it’s inevitable, you are seriously deluded and misguided.

Thank You.

It is an honor to unite two loving souls
in spiritual union, and imperative to extend the Civil Rights
granted by marriage to ALL committed couples,
regardless of sexual orientation.

I am proud to marry ALL couples and celebrate their love for each other,
and will continue to demonstrate my love for them by
marrying them, regardless of race, religion, or sexual orientation.

I am proud to fully support Marriage Equality.

I was baptized a Catholic and have all due respect for any and all religion, so when I say that your ignorance is actually astounding I mean that I am absolutely scandalized. Time and time again anti-gay activists broadcast the same inadequate defenses without any regard for the actual facts; this is no different.

First of all, in response to the following; “...it is an attempt to redefine the institution of marriage as it has been understood since the beginning of time. Marriage is a relationship between one man and one woman and is meant to foster life and love. Homosexual “marriage” can never do that. It is an ill-advised attempt to redefine something God has given us…” Uhm, have you ever heard of the Oneida? Early Mormonism? Imperial China? Early Islamic societies? God did not “give” us marriage, and marriage has not been between one man and one woman since the beginning of time. Furthermore, the Catholic church has come under incredible scrutiny due to issues with pedophilia. Do you honestly believe that is less of an issue than letting two human beings join together in (now secular) matrimony?

Secondly, with regards to the statement that “...the passage of homosexual “marriage” presents a challenge to religious freedom and conscience protection…” Giving a child to a gay couple is not against God. The God I believe in would not condemn putting a child without a home in a loving environment as opposed to the atrocious conditions of foster homes in America. Furthermore, the ban on gay marriage presents a challenge to the fourteenth amendment! Our constitution directly states, and I quote, that “No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property…” Prohibiting gay marriage reduces roughly ten percent of the population to second class citizens. They are not at liberty to love who they choose to. You state that “the president overstepped his authority and abdicated his role and sworn duty to uphold the laws of our nation.” The constitution IS the law. Who are you to impose your own religious doctrines on the rest of the world? Catholics make up only 20+% of the United States. Why should 20% of the population be allowed to restrict the rights of another 10%?

I could go on but I think I’ve touched on your main points. Your arguments simply don’t hold water. Homosexuals are humans and American citizens and have as much right to life, liberty, and property as you do. Stop trying to interfere in what is now a secular issue and get your facts straight before you open your mouth.

Since ancient times the Chinese have believed that in primitive, uncivilised communites there is no proper husband and wife, parent and child, brother and sister reltionships. And I agree with them. It is important that these relationships, which are different from all the other relationships that exist in society, are well cared for. The fundamantal institution in any civilised society is the husband and wife one, namely marriage. It is a meaningful union in which one naturallt complements the other and is the only one that naturally produces children. Marriage has nothing to do with politicians and judges except when there is a breakdown. God marriages usually make good families which make good societies, whereas dysfuntional or incompatible marriages cause disaster. There are various lifestyles that exist and we should not equate then with marriage. One will try to take control over the other. It has happened in parts of the UK - and their children are now paying the heavy price for it. Lack of direction, stability at home and insecurity have dragged them down to be considered the worst in Europe. What a politically created tragedy.

so many atrocities are occurring every minute of the day, we are attacking each other from every direction, when all we need to do is pray!before we speak think,do we have the right to,judge and condemn one another? we need to stop all of this evil and hatred and finger pointing at each other? remember what our Lord jesus said” he who is without sin cast the first stone”! so we are not entitled to judge the priests ,the homosexuals, the murderers ,criminals,liars,!@#$%,thieves. since we are all of these and much more, yet we forget the most important message Jesus brings us’ Love God above all else and love your neighbor as yourself” its too much to constantly pick at each other ,removing all the layers untill we are nothing” i care about the world but i care more about the fact that we think we are entitled in some way to criticize and condemn” i cant stand to see another person suffer and be humiliated, all i want to do is wrap my arms around that person and let them feel safe and loved again. think about this” the devil is planting all these seeds of hatred,  why should we allow him to take another poor soul to hell/ enough, we need to pray for each other, long ago ,those people you and i seem to condemn were once a beautiful innocent child, destroyed by the sick evil, and filth in this world? we are responsible for those innocent children hurt and destroyed, we are responsible for the destruction of our earth ,the genocide of children, the rapes and murders and loss of life,jobs, because we never did anything, we just continued to live in the me,me,me society its all about self gratification, and whats in it for me? when did we stop to find out if our neighbor was ok, when we wer living the good life? pray,change, pray as a family before its too late. pray for all these changes that are occuring.pray for each other”

“My fellow Catholics—my brothers and sisters—please know that there are men and women who have repudiated the lies of homosexual activists.  We need your prayers, your support, and your friendship.  To my fellow Catholics who have abandoned the faith and have embraced the spirit of the world know this: You are just one confession away from full communion with the Church.”

Thank you Nate for your courage in speaking the truth of God. God is love and teaches us to love our brothers and sisters who struggle with same sex attraction. Their hatred and venom towards us is part of the religious persecution we face more and more in the world. We must be strong and persist in love and TRUTH and not return hate for hate. God Bless you Nate!

Please do not equate pedophilia with gay marriage or being gay.  Almost all acts of sexual abuse against children (male and female) are done by straight men.  Many of whom are married.  Being gay and being in a relationship with someone of the same sex is a partnership of equals and is consensual.  Suggesting that the Catholic church should not have a right to state its opinion on gay marriage because priests have abused children is a logical disconnect.  They have the right to their opinion. If they don’t want to marry people who are gay, they don’t need to. But they shouldn’t try to interfere with CIVIL laws that effect people of all religions and people of no religions.

One does not have to be Catholic to see the folly of homosexual marriage.

No matter how many laws are passed people will always know that it is not a marriage.

I don’t know where the idea that the church hates homosexuals comes from. The teaching that homosexuality deviates from the natural order is no different than precisely the same teaching on masturbation. Do you interpret that to mean that the Church hates most adolescent men? I am a layman, and thus not authorized to teach from the catechism, but I can say that people who accuse the Church of hatred in this matter seem to be confusing the Church’s teachings on objective morality with the far less referenced position on what constitutes the grace of God and the nature of his judgment as to culpability. The CCC condemns hatred, or even discrimination, against those of homosexual orientation. However, condemning hatred and discrimination, and being forgiving of acts done without mortal culpability, are not the same as saying that the natural order can be redefined. Thus, the church cannot assent to the re-definition of marriage by the will of man.

There’s so much misdirection in these comments, I don’t know where to start . . .
“As a matter of fact according to your religion ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE.”
Devin, that doesn’t abdicate you from your responsibility of thinking and using discernment about what is right and wrong.
“How convenient to label people and items as “evil.” It makes it soooo much easier to demonize them and stir up hatred.”
Chris, Church teaching does not label ‘people or items’ as evil in this regard so stop saying that.  We are calling the act evil and wrong.  This is not to stir up hatred.  It is to give people clarity about right and wrong – this is independent of who is committing an act.  All of the people I know who think as I do that homosexuality is wrong harbor no ill will toward any person living that life style.  That’s pretty far from hatred.  The only time it become an issue for me at all is when something that is sacred to me like the sacrament of marriage is trying to be attacked and maligned.  I must speak up and defend the sacrament of marriage against those who wish to warp its true meaning.  Their act is independent of who they are in the sense that they have the same God given dignity that I have, and everyone has, and that is how I will always interact with someone I disagree with - no matter the issue.
People who physically attack people because they are gay are violent people and would attack anyone who they think they can, if they think they can get away with it.  Whether its women, children, people of color or people who have a same sex attraction, there are those who react with violence because they are violent and believe they will get away with it.  That is hate.  That is not the Catholic Church or her teaching.  Please do not confuse people who use violence and intimidation with those who simply are discerning right from wrong.
“As someone who has been a part of the Catholic community all of my life, I am deeply offended by the fact that an article like this represents the Church in which I grew up.”
Jessica – I really don’t get it.  Are you Catholic?  If you are do you believe what the Church teaches?  I don’t know what ‘being part of the Catholic community’ means.  Do you just go to church and hang out but if you are asked to believe and follow something, you reject the Church you hang out at?  I will say this.  I’m Catholic.  I’m Catholic because I believe what the Church teaches.  The Church teaching on things like homosexuality and abortion are based on absolute truth (they will never change). There are other things that the Church teaches and practices that are not based on absolute truth and do change.  Like things about the Mass have changed over the years.  It’s said in the vernacular with the priest facing the people for example.  But I have to wonder, why would you spend so much of your time and your life in a church that you find offensive?  What I can say is that the teaching of the Church is actually based on love and dignity of the person and protection of the innocent.  And if you’ve been going to the Catholic Church and don’t understand the teaching of the Church you are truly missing out on some beautiful things.  If you are offended by the truth in this article, then my guess would be that you are only reading with a hard heart.  If you are really after the truth I would continue to look for it.  Look past PEOPLE and their imperfections when you get explanations that are imperfect and continue to look for God’s loving truth and plan for you.
I could go on and on with the comments but I simply don’t have time.  But to all the people who have same sex attraction out there who are no doubt reading this article and its comments, I would just have to say that I am so grateful for Bishop Tobin who is defending our sacrament of marriage.  There was a public school in Alameda CA that wanted to teach homosexuality to children as young as age 6 and the parents wouldn’t be able to opt out.  This was before the Prop 8 passed.  I guess my question would be if you want separation of church and state why are you teaching morality (or immorality) in the public schools?  And why on earth would they insist on going over the parent’s heads and behind their backs like that? (My general rule of thumb is anyone who tries to teach my kid something behind by back is up to no good.  That’s independent of this issue.)  I see all these comments saying we just want to be left alone and live our lives, well so do I.  I just want to be left alone and be able to live my life and send my kid to public schools and know what they are learning.  I have no ill will for anyone.  Why are schools in CA doing this?  Why is the sacrament threatened?  Why are you attacking my faith and our sacraments?  Even if you disagree with me, don’t you understand that?

‘If We Don’t Care, Gay Marriage Will Pass’—I would instead offer ‘If We Believe in Love and Compassion, Gay Marriage Will Pass.’

I think it’s funny how some of these people think this aritcle must have been posted on a “homosexualist web site” to get so many comments against it.  LOL!  They must be living under rocks. I also have no idea how same sex Marriage effects religious freedom???  That’s a strange concept and I would love to hear the twisted reasoning behind it.

Fact # 1: USA was founded with the precept that there be no establishment of a State Religion. No one is going to try to force bigoted churches, like the Catholic Church to perform Same-Sex weddings.  There are plenty of churches who believe in the sanctity of same-sex marriage as much as sex-discordant marriage.  The refusal by the state to recognize same-sex marriage rites performed in churches is an infringement on the rights of Americans to practice their religion. 

Fact #2: American’s worship in many different ways and there are many different churches, temples, synagogues and mosques, sects, order, etc.  Among these there are many different understandings of homosexuality.  Many sects, religions, etc.  perform gay marriages (and have throughout history (See “Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe” by John Boswell. Many people’s interpretation of the gospel relies solely on the words of Jesus and he NEVER SAID A WORD ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY.  It is reasonable to assume that he didn’t care about it and didn’t think it was worth preaching about.

Fact #3: Marriage existed throughout all cultures BEFORE CHRISTIANITY, Before Islam, Before Judaism, Before Buddhism, etc.  The Christian church didn’t even accept heterosexual marriage as a valid lifestyle worthy of liturgy until the 10th Century AD (in fact, there were liturgical blessings for same-sex couples before there were the same for sex-discordant couples.)  To claim that the Catholic Church somehow owns marriage or is any sort of arbiter of what makes a marriage is laughable.

Fact #4: The entirety of the Catholic Church hierarchy is unmarried and (ostensibly) childless.  The notion that any of them would have anything useful to say about marriage or family life is absurd.  This fundamental misunderstanding is in large part to blame for the fact that said hierarchy has been abusing children in one form or another for centuries: work farms/houses and child labor used by missionaries, the Magdalenes of Ireland,  the famed Castrato (mutilating young boys to keep their voices high - how sick is that?) and of course the sexual abuse and cover-ups that have been exposed of late are all examples of this.

Fact #5: The Catholic Church has no remaining moral force or authority. Around the world, Catholics have come to reject the false morality that the church proffers.  How many Catholics use condoms, have abortions, are gay, have premarital or extra-marital sex, dishonor their fathers and/or mothers, bear false witness, etc, etc.etc?  They enjoy the pomp and circumstances of their ceremonies.  They want the church to solemnize all of their special occasions.  But nobody (at lease no one with a brain, an education and any measure of worldliness)pays any attention to the nonsense that comes out of the Vatican (except of course to disagree with it). That the Catholic Church could spend decades castigating gay people in loving, monogamous relationships while spending those same decades covering up the torture of children by their priests lays bare the moral failing and misplaced priorities of a moribund church that is approaching bankruptcy on every level.

@Jeminex

>“I think it’s funny how some of these people think this aritcle must have been posted on a “homosexualist web site” to get so many comments against it.”

It is funny how some people have never heard of referendums.
In every state (including the bluest of blue states) where pseudomarriage was put to a referendum, it was voted DOWN. That this story, on a Catholic website, was mass-trolled by homosexual militants (many of them making clear that they are NOT Catholic, and so presumably are not ncr readers) makes it likely that this story was linked from a homosexualist website.

I repeat: all same-sex “marriage” stories should come with this link:

http://frexpression.wordpress.com/2010/10/20/a-gay-man-decries-gay-rights/

This is a reasonable response, written by a peaceful homosexual atheist, to the totalitarian militants.

He shows that homosexuals should be simply left alone (which they already are), and the militancy should stop trying to push things like “gay positive curriculum” and same-sex-marriage.

And he specifically warns against the disrespectful attacks on religion that are found in homosexual literature. He warns that it will backfire.

CAROL WROTE: “I see all these comments saying we just want to be left alone and live our lives, well so do I.  I just want to be left alone and be able to live my life and send my kid to public schools and know what they are learning.  I have no ill will for anyone.  Why are schools in CA doing this?  Why is the sacrament threatened?  Why are you attacking my faith and our sacraments?  Even if you disagree with me, don’t you understand that?”
MY RESPONSES: 1. Let’s be clear about the direction of the oppression. Carol, you are the one who is supporting oppression of same-sex couples. We aren’t attempting to stop your right to marry. We aren’t attempting to stop your right to attend a Catholic Church. So STOP playing the victim card and take responsibility for your desire and need to oppress other people in society.
2. What if any of your children turn out to be gay? Are you going to disown them? If you think that just because you are straight and Catholic that you will therefore be spared of having gay children then your knowledge about the NATURE of sexual orientation is extremely limited. Your homophobia and heterosexism won’t stop a child/teenager from having a gay orientation if that is what is in his/her genes.
3. No ill will? Please! You are advocating for the oppression of an entire class of people. You are demanding that YOU have more rights than gay people. Do you not see how much HARM such a view causes?
4. “Marriage” is not owned by Catholics. It is not YOUR sacrament. Marriage is a LEGAL institution governed by laws and society. You don’t own it. You have no more claim over it than anyone else in society. Your demand for exclusive control over an institution you DO NOT OWN is extremely arrogant and selfish.
5. No, I don’t understand you because there is NO LOGIC to what you are saying.
Thank You.

I ashamed for you1 Bigoted hate mongers have no business in any church.  How can you purport to be a man of God?  You and others like you are why I left the Catholic church and never looked back.  BTW— Episcopalians do not presume to judge other people.  I think it is horrible to try come between a person and GOD.  Am sure you won’t print this comment because you don’t like free thought, different opinions or women priests.

“All of the people I know who think as I do that homosexuality is wrong harbor no ill will toward any person living that life style. “

Yet, you want to legislate discrimination on some of the most basic human feelings and say that we are continuously drawn toward evil because of our very disordered existence.

I’ll stick with the bill of rights thank you

Dear Catholic members, please get real. The gays don’t want anything to do with your religion. They seek to be treated exactly as everyone else, under the law. Your church is wildly out of line.

I am a lesbian former Catholic who, in some ways, will always be Catholic and always love the Church, even as I feel that Jesus must weep when He sees how far it has strayed from His commandment… “the greatest commandment is this, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself.” I know without a shadow of a doubt that God has created me as I am, and loves me as I am. When I was married to a man I felt dirty, shamed, unnatural; through my love for my female partner I felt whole, and much closer to God than before. I should point out also that I only came out as a lesbian at age 36, after a summer of deep depression. I prayed daily on the rosary for peace and understanding, begging God to help me. When a letter from a friend helped me understand that I am gay, it was truly as if a cloud had lifted at that moment, and God had answered my prayers. I was no longer depressed, and I know it was because I finally knew who God made me to be. If sinning is when we move away from God, then certainly being gay and in a relationship is not sinful because I’ve become closer to God than ever before. In fact, I am beginning discernment of a call to ministry that I’ve had for 40 yrs. In terms of the actual point of the article, it is God, not man, who calls people into lifetime relationships, and I also know gay or lesbian couples who have been together for decades. While it is true that the Church should not conform itself to the world, let us not forget that the Holy Spirit still moves among us, enabling us to see more clearly how best to be in relationship with each other and our Lord. How can anything that supports love and commitment be wrong, or not from God? A marriage is a joining of souls, of two people becoming one, and if two people of the same gender find that love, then they truly are blessed ... and should be entitled to the same legal protections and recognition as their next-door, heterosexual neighbors. It’s only just. With love and peace ...

This is exactly why I am no longer a practicing Catholic.  This article is a disgrace.  Homophobia is perfectly okay for the church heirarchy, unless, of course, it is a member of the clergy engaged in pedophelia, and then, nothing is done, and it is covered up.  You have !@#$% the faith that I was raised in, but God sees what hypocrites you really are.

Nick (and others) I’m sorry I don’t fit into any ‘box’ that might look familiar to you. You seem to think that anyone who supports same-sex marriage must also be an atheist, Church-hating, socialist, flaming liberal. Sorry to disappoint you. Here is my e-mail, .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). You will find if you peruse my facebook wall, that I am a dyed in the wool conservative Catholic Republican. I think you better get used to people who love Jesus with all their heart, and don’t see everything the way you do

It all comes down to the fiscal powers (i.e., taxation policies) of “the state” and they are deemed to be fairly or unfairly applied. If we just want to keep the issue centered on the freedom of each respective religious body’s determination to set its own rules, regulations, bylaws as they believe to be truly inspired by their respective Scriptures, teaching traditions, etc., this matter would be handled solely at that level and it’d be left up to individual worshippers to decide where he or she wanted to worship and how.
  When religious institutions take advantage of tax breaks which the government decided to grant them in years past, they also entered into a more or less tacit agreement with “the state” to abide by its laws or they could lose their “non-profit” status. I’ll grant that some of the restrictions are inconsistent, smack of political and social biases, etc. But the laws are what they are and until they are changed, they have to be obeyed. After all, how would you like to enter a food pantry to pick up a bag or two of groceries or sit at a food kitchen, run by a church or one of its sponsored parachurch organizations, only to be given a sermon or have somebody sidle up and in a pushy way try to get you to come to the same church on a regular basis and belong to it because it alone teaches the truth.
  By and large, most people who visit the food pantries and soup kitchens are mostly interested in feeding their bellies not their souls and the last thing they want, (especially if they’re a devout member of another denomination) is for the same lady or guy who just handed them their bag of groceries (or lunch tray)  is to give them a theological working over.
  Now, so long as homosexuals pay taxes like everybody else…it’s going to be a very difficult, if not almost impossible, task for the Church’s attorney’s to defend its non-profit status, and with that, a whole lot of other exemptions and benefits religious institutions presently receive. This is happening on the abortion/birth control front, as well.
  I don’t like it either because it puts at risk so many excellent programs Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox Christians, Jews and Muslims have created as worthwhile charities with long track records of helping those in need. One can only imagine the consternation felt by Orthodox Jews and Muslims (who are conservative when it comes to what’s commonly termed “family values.”) This issue has also shown itself to pit so many Christians against each other to no other degree, save for abortion and slavery (which was limited to regional intra-Protestant divisions on how literal the Bible was to be taken about the ownership of slavery. Yes, it was more complicated, as all the biggies are, but that’s my handy wrap-up on that old and thankfully settled matter.)
  Though one wonders if Rep. Steve King (R-IA) hasn’t gotten the message when spoke recently in the House Chamber about labor being a “commodity” like anything else. Heterosexual, homosexual, whatever orientation, we’d better all be worried if King’s views on the laws of ecomics becomes the nation’s law and the price of corn exceeds that of human beings. We’ll be back to the days when all marriages can be broken apart ... according to the laws of economics. What a stalwart spokesman for the party of “family values.” LOL.
  All kidding aside, (but let’s honestly admit that we all need more humor nowadays), this very serious issue will mostly likely be decided in a Federal Tax, District, Appeals or the Supreme Court ... and the tax code will play a major contributory factor, if not the deciding one, that’ll work in favor of the proponents of same sex unions or marriage.
  I live in the state which gave the nation same sex marriage. While the political battle over the issue several years ago was downright ugly, with the Church on the losing end. Yet, so far it hasn’t upset the social stability of even the area where I live which happens to be one of THE most liberal counties in the nation. Besides, what does it say about ourselves if we proclaim so loudly to be so upright in our Christian faith if we demonstrate it so poorly in our public lives? That’s not saying we have to approve, or even give the insult of tolerance. (Would we want to be merely “tolerated” as in olden days when anti-Catholicisim was very much in vogue? And do we want to invite a return to it based on grounds we could’ve well avoided due to a lack of Christian charity on our parts?
  Being honest and personably courageous in expressing our tenants is one thing. But if it’s street theater and ugly confrontation you want, please stay out of Massachusetts. My state senator is homosexual. He’s been a friend of my wife and I long before he was elected to office, subsequently admitted to being homosexual and we’ll continue backing him because we know him to be a man of his word. His long career in public service has been scandal-free, too.
  Contrast our friend’s record to some other but much better known heterosexual Christians, who formerly served in high office.

Denying a cross doesn’t make it less a cross. We are told we must carry it or we can not be Jesus’ disciples.  It must be terrible to have same sex attraction and to know it is condemned as sin.  But God’s grace is greater than any sin and that is the point.  Homosexuality is being forced on heterosexual children to the point where they are being drawn into sin. It is being forced by courts and politicians against the will of the people.  Massachusetts voters were not even allowed a vote on same sex marriage. So please don’t say it doesn’t affect anyone. It surely does.  Our whole society is permeated with trying to convince us that two men having sexual relations or two women having sexual relations is a normal, healthy occurance.  It is not.  It is a sad occurance.  Grace can overcome anything and the issue is that rather than facing the strong attraction to the flesh and unnatural relations (Two penises or two vaginas) the homosexual lobby is attacking the Spirit- condemning the writings of Peter, Jude, Paul, the Bible and those Churches and individuals that are faithful to the teachings of Christ. Mercy and compassion lead people to handle hard truths and this is one of them.  You were made for greater things.  Men can be great friends. Women can be great friends.  But lovers- no.  That is crossing a line that drawers into question every normal relationship and leaves society in the mess it is today, asking “Are my kids safe?  What are they filling their heads with?  How can we trust anymore?”  So many liberals voting for gay rights and then policing their neighbor because they feel the threat of the growing sexual amorality, never mind immorality. People being coerced to accept beliefs or act in opposition to their faith in God.  God created people with all kinds of disabilities so to say “God made me this way so I can act out.” is a coppout.  No He gave you a share in the suffering He endured on the Cross and if you knew how to embrace the Cross you would be tremendously blessed.  But you need to embrace it first.

Even if homosexuals were all longing to to ruin marriage, there is nothing they could do to disgrace, pervert, & debauch it that hasn’t been done very efficiently & for a very long time by heterosexual Christians.

“I don’t know where the idea that the church hates homosexuals comes from.”—-Call it love if you like… but if so, then it’s coupled with such willful ignorance that it might as well be hatred. Worse, really.

Mrs. J and Nate,
God bless you both!
Bishop Tobin, Thank you for being a loving shepherd and reflecting the heart of Christ.
To all who struggle with various homosexual attractions, believe me when I say you are much loved.  The vast majority of those who hold to the true teachings of the Church on this issue have great love for the PEOPLE who struggle with homosexuality—just not for their disordered appetites which will never satisfy their souls as God intended.

There are three options for dealing with the gay situation.

1- Get rid of them all. The Nazis tried this one with a mass genocide but it didn’t work.

2- Create a two-tier society in which gay people are treated as second class citizens and laws set them at a disadvantage compared to other people.

3- Grant them equality and let them get on with their lives.

From a legal point of view an increasing number of religious denominations now carry out same sex marriages, so to prevent recognition of these legally denies religious freedom, which is wrong.

I’m gay. In in a civil union. I will marry when I can. I believe it is right to do this because I have a child and marriage is the best way to give stability to and validate his parents’ relationship. An increasingly large percentage of gay people do have children now and scientific research proves that their children grow up with as good as, if not better, outcomes than other children. In nature homosexual animals are more common in sociable species where they can step into a parenting role if other animals in their group are killed. There is a credible theory that evolution created homosexuality to improve offspring rearing outcomes. We can support this in humans by allowing same sex marriage.

Tony, There is another option and always has been. That is to recognize it as a brokenness.  Men are not relating to men and women as they should.  Women are not relating to men and women as they should.  The consequences hurt all society because even friendship between members of the same sex becomes an occasion of sin,making people wonder if it is something else.  Children are indoctrinated in schools to accept what is unnatural as natural.  It has serious repurcussions for peoples ability to trust and feel safe.  With love people CAN acknowledge that and discourage the spread of error as truth while helping those caught in error. The same is true for every sexual sin.  If someone is sexually addicted do we say polygamy is normal or treat the addiction?

Tony, there’s a difference between permitting or “not caring” about an act and condoning it. By granting even civil unions, the government gives official approval for the couples in question. so I present a syllogism (since someone else here seemed to think there is no logic to the position).

MAJOR PREMISE 1: The government should never act counter to its purpose.
MINOR PREMISE 1: The government acts counter to its purpose when it encourages evil acts.
CONCLUSION 1: The government should never encourage evil acts. (Alternately: If an act is morally wrong, the government should not encourage it.)

(I hold that the major and the minor are obvious, and thus taken be axiomatically)

MAJOR PREMISE 2: If an act is morally wrong, the government should not encourage it.
MINOR PREMISE 2: We [The Catholic Church] hold that homosexual activity (not the attractions themselves, but the decision to act upon them) is objectively morally wrong.
CONCLUSION 2: It would be morally inconsistent of us to encourage the government to encourage homosexual behavior.

(The major was derived from the first conclusion. The minor is again obvious. For reasons as to why, not all of which are derived from the Bible, I encourage you to look at the following statement by the Vatican: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html ... in any case, obviously that argument is outside the scope of a combox argument)

Because of this, it follows naturally that we [Catholics] should fight against even civil unions for homosexuals. And I agree with someone else said above - we should also fight for an end to many of the evils that have led to this even being an issue in the first place, but the Church has always fought for those positions (anti-contraception, anti-divorce, etc.) even when American Catholics haven’t.

@Tony

> “1- Get rid of them all. The Nazis tried this one with a mass genocide but it didn’t work.”

That happened nearly 70 years ago. And it also happened to blacks, gypsies and, to a small scale, Catholics. The main targets were Jews.

> “3- Grant them equality and let them get on with their lives.”

This already happens. Read http://frexpression.wordpress.com/2010/10/20/a-gay-man-decries-gay-rights/

Equality is different from privilege.

> “From a legal point of view an increasing number of religious denominations now carry out same sex marriages, so to prevent recognition of these legally denies religious freedom, which is wrong.”

Not at all; religious freedom does not mean the “right” to have it recognized by the state. For example, Muslims may want polygamy, but the state does not recognize polygamous marriages. And that is OK.

@Michele

> “I feel that Jesus must weep when He sees how far it has strayed from His commandment…”

Remember there are plentiful condemnations of sodomy in the Bible (in the Old and New Testament alike).

> “the greatest commandment is this, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself.”

To love a person means to try to bring him to God. For example, if your son is using drugs, the loving attitude is to say “stop this! This is killing you!”. Saying “Don’t feel guilty, God made you this way” is _cowardice_.

> “I know without a shadow of a doubt that God has created me as I am, and loves me as I am.”

He loves you; not necessarily your attitudes. God also created robbers as they are; that doesn’t mean God approves of robbery.

> “How can anything that supports love and commitment be wrong, or not from God?”

Is it really love, Truth, and commitment?

“Denying a cross doesn’t make it less a cross. We are told we must carry it or we can not be Jesus’ disciples.  It must be terrible to have same sex attraction and to know it is condemned as sin.  But God’s grace is greater than any sin and that is the point.  Homosexuality is being forced on heterosexual children to the point where they are being drawn into sin.”

But it is you who is placing that cross on the homosexuals’ shoulders, just like the Romans did at the demands of the persecuting Jews.
If you think this is so terrible to experience, why is it that you are not given adults free will? That is part of our Constitution, if you want to ignore that yourself and reach toward your faith, go for it, but gays have rights too. As for being forced on children, that has been done by priests with a more predatory goal as opposed to homosexuality itself.

What I experienced “forced” on me was a debilitating fear, loathing and guilt that I’m still trying to get over. One can say it’s “just their feelings” when it comes to homosexuality, but you are the ones forcing so much more. Nobody deserves to grow up like this.

This really all amounts to a big show of social control. If an institution can aim criticism at such a broad group of people, uniting the rest in their persecution and ostracism, they’ve shown their muscle and gotten everyone else on the same page. It never occurs to people what they are doing to their children. And if you do not put yourself in their shoes and ask questions, you will always be alienating them, causing them harm, validating all the bullying and heckling.

None of this is what I was told at a young age was Christian.

I’m still trying to figure out why the church wants to control the sex lives of those not in their church. There is absolutely nothing to read above with any legitimate reason one needs to step outside the church and put their religion into law nor any reason that we should stop people from loving in their own way? If homosexuality is a sin in your church, why do you have to make other people feel the same way?

the Amish have all sorts of rules about machinery and dress, Orthodox Jews have many rules, many from Leviticus which Christians don’t follow, but they are not prohibiting me from wearing mixed fibers.

I continue to read the comments posted on this article.  And, I continue to be amazed at the basic point that often is missed in all this.  As a non-Catholic I could not care less what you think of me or what your church thinks of me.  I simply do not and never have.  All this endless droning on about some text from the bible and this interpretation or that has zero effect on me.  As a young child, I knew I was gay and I knew it was okay and truly never had the slightest issue with it.  I thought the church naysayers were clueless (and still do).

I am not sure there is any way to try to get the members of the RCC to begin to grasp the concept that they and their teachings are not the only game in town!  I no more care about how the RCC feels about same-sex marriage than I care about how Islam feels about it.  Neither has a dog in this fight when it comes to my personal life.

Where I draw the line is simply this—what you do with your parishioners is up to you.  The RCC has NO business imposing its view of marriage or morality on the rest of us in the secular world.

My partner of 13 years and our daughter of 11 years will continue to live in the burbs, have a very happy and contented life, and not have to deal with the tons of self-imposed and institutional baggage you folks have.  When you start dumping millions into changing secular laws that affect my family negatively, then the fangs are out.  I hope, someday, this very basic concept that the world does not revolve around the RCC will sink in.  Of course, Galileo had the same problem a few years back.

I was raised a catholic and practice to this day, but to force others outside of the church to comply with some very rigid sexual demands from a church is becoming increasingly disturbing to me. This is for political spiritual ethical reasons.

@Josesph Yungk,  Homosexuality has been considered an unnatural act for thousands of years. It hasn’t just been decided by the Catholic Church. So it may be hard to face, but it is not the Church who is putting the Cross on your shoulders.  Somewhere in your life you concluded you were homosexual but having been exposed to the nature of this sin most of my life, I would bet there were people you weren’t even aware of helping you to come to that conclusion.  The number of people actually born with a genetic abnormality is very small.  So many kids are sterotyped or coerced or set up for failure or made to feel like they don’t belong or are seduced or cajoled into believing they are homosexual.  Interestingly, Pope Leo XIII had a vision toward the middle or end of the nineteenth century and in that vision he saw Satan speaking to God.  Satan told God that if he were given one hundred years he could make people forget about God.  God gave him the twentieth century.  In the twentieth century we had the surge of the industrial revolution and machine and profit being put before man. We had two world wars and many other wars and the holocaust.  We had the sexual revolution, the drug culture, the homosexual revolution and increased materialism.  We had the pedophile priest crisis and increased divorces and abortions. God allowed us to be tempted and we fell badly.  With the homosexual activity we had a new scourge - aids.  Our bodies and our world are telling us that we have gone off course.  This is a Catholic blog so for those who don’t want to hear a Catholic perspective, I’m not sure what to say except that our country was FOUNDED on Christian principles. Catholics are not the ones rewriting the playbook or the Constitution.  If you think about it, atheism is really anti-American since we are a nation under God.  It is part of who we are and always have been. Without the moral foundation our laws and form of Government won’t hold up.  Thomas Jefferson voiced that concern as the government was established.

@ChuckGG: We were formed a Nation under God. It is normal to be protective.  But the RCC and each of it’s members has just as much right to be protective and to voice opinions on moral issues of the day and to vote and to use its or their power and influence to bring about the nation under God we were formed to be.  The Church doesn’t want to hurt homosexuals and never has.  There is a Truth and it has been revealed. Until very recently homosexuality was always recognized as a disorder. It has been considered immoral behavior throughout the world for centuries.  I have personally witnessed people pushed into the lifestyle through coercion, despair, weakness, ignorant stereotyping, predatory behavior, seduction etc. It is not the sweet benign thing you would make it out to be, unfortunately.  It is a cross and you are free to deny it at your own peril.  But this is a Catholic blog so you will find people who disagree with you here.  As you live your happy life in the burbs I wonder if you ever give any time thinking about the life after death?  Do you pray? Does your daughter know how to pray?  As you go through life is everything geared towards here and now or is it geared to meeting God on your deathbed? 

@Stephanie: If you have always been Catholic then may I assume you care deeply about the souls of your fellow man?  We live in a nation under God that many would like to deconstruct to make a nation with NO God. Do YOU want to live in a nation that has turned its back on God?  I sure don’t!  The RCC is not imposing “rigid sexual demands” on anyone.  It never has.  It states the teaching of Jesus Christ and people comply or they don’t. We are free to disobey at our own peril.  What you call “rigid” seem to be defining proper sexual relations as between a man and a woman.  The world has always defined them that way.  This is nothing new.  It is objectively apparent from human anatomy that penises were created at least in part to be compatible with vaginas.  They are not compatible with another penis nor are two vaginas sexually compatible with each other.  Something outside of the natural order of things is occurring if two penises or two vaginas are engaged in sexual activity.  As Catholics we know sin and temptation and brokenness occur and that Jesus is greater than all of that and that we, through his sacraments and grace can overcome all of that.  The Church is not forcing anything on anyone but it is standing up for the truth and the good of all men and women.

Pam,

We’ve since found out that homosexuals are everywhere and have suffered great harm at the hands of those who want to change the nature of people. You do not get to define homosexuality as any kind of a disorder, nor do you get to define me. Our country was founded on freedom of religion so there really is no reason you should be campaigning in order to continue verbally abusing gays or discriminating against us.

You can talk about “natural order” all you want, but there are plenty of examples of homosexual in the world of nature and to homosexually inclined persons, it is perfectly natural for them.

To tell me that loving someone is evil, it’s just not your business. I see all the slurs above and on other posts in this website. Not much of this is Christian at all.

Bishop Tobin, Jesus’ words are appropo to you and those like you: “If the world hates you, realize that it hated Me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own, but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you. Remember the word I spoke to you, ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you….If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is, they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates Me also hates my Father….In the world, you will have trouble, but take courage, I have conquered the world” (John 15:18-23; 16:23) Thank you for your courage and guidance, and please continue the good fight!

Also, bravo to Janny, Nick, Pete, Joseph, and those few others of you who stand with the good bishop! Continue to fight evil with love and meekness, and to stand with our Holy Catholic Church! Your reward, our Lord promises, will be great. (o:

“I sure don’t!  The RCC is not imposing “rigid sexual demands” on anyone.  It never has.  It states the teaching of Jesus Christ and people comply or they don’t. We are free to disobey at our own peril.

then why are they trying to block gay marriage, tell everyone gays have something wrong with them for who they are attracted to and are trying to maintain sodomy laws in Europe?

As for homosexuality being “considered an unnatural act for thousands of years.” it’s just not true.

It is so very amusing how you people blindly accept divorce & remarriage under the guise of a silly ‘annulment’, allowing literally millions of Catholics to live in what Christ called adultery, but when it comes to same-sex couples you have a proverbial cow. If gay couples were going to damage the institution of marriage—which they are not—they could not do more damage than divorce-on-demand, and the sweet little loophole of annulments, obtained so easily from the Catholic Church

Joseph Yungk and janetfernandez,  The last hundred years the Church has been under attack.  Adultery and divorce were never taken lightly by the Church but there have been abuses which the Church admits and which it is working diligently to correct.  Marriages and Catholics are very much under attack right now BECAUSE of the homosexual agenda.  To bolster their logic activists are actively trying to promote the fall of married Catholics, tempt the children of devout couples or Catholics and split up marriages to normalize divorce and sexual sin in general.  Catholics have caught on to what is happening.  We now live in a world where children can not walk to a bus stop alone. Where people live educated by “stranger danger” and are educated from the earliest age about every perversion and evil the world might throw at them.  I have seen life before this insanity. (and it is insanity!)  And it is all tied to loss of faith in God and loss of morals.  Read the letters of Peter and James and Jude and Paul in the Bible. They all speak strongly in opposition to sexual sin.  Remember Sodom and Gemorrah.  Sexual sin has consequences.  Joseph you were made for greater things.  Someone on this blog made a comment that everything about them revolved around their homosexuality.  You are more than your sexual orientation.  You are more than your physical self.  I am neither verbally abusing nor discriminating against homosexuals by stating Church teaching or the obvious.  Human beings were created to mate the opposite sex no matter what anything else in nature was created to mate. Despite your protests to the contrary, history has shown civilizations recognition that homosexual acts were contrary to the public good. Further, no life can come from the physical union of two people of the same sex. So nature itself shows its defects.  These are facts.  If a person were born outside the normal spectrum and were diagnosed as diabetic, we would not be hating that person to help them learn to test their blood sugar and eat at regular intervals.  Neither does it have to be “hate” to help someone who is homosexual. The real help is not on a psychiatrists couch. I agree that alot of damage can be done to ANYONE with any condition if the psychologist or psychiatrist is not graced with the gift of healing and meant for that profession.  The best and truest healing comes from Jesus Christ! It is in learning who we really are that the real healing comes.  You are a child of God.  You were created to love supernaturally and be loved supernaturally.  Not just in the flesh or the emotional level.
How can the Church fight for laws that uphold the institution of marriage as the union of a man and a woman and fight to uphold sodomy laws?  Because they care.

Just ask Joseph P. Kennedy, III if the granting of annulments isn’t taken seriously by the Church. He had one, his ex objected and over time she convinced the Vatican to overturn it. I’m not by any means adequately informed to write about any other Kennedy annulments, including Ted’s if I’m not wrong; the fact remains, if an annulment has been granted for insufficient reasons, and the aggrieved spouse appeals and provides sufficient evidence and reasons to have the annulment overturned, the Church’s courts will “make whole” (as they say in legal circles) and overturn/revoke or simply “yank” for lack of better terminology the original annulment.
  Some people might snicker and say, “Well, Ted was Ted, THE MAN of Massachusetts politics, for good or bad, and the Boston Archdiocese felt it was better not to rattle too many swords with him, lest he ever so slyly and subtly use his clout on Capitol (and Beacon Hill) much to the Church’s great disadvantage.” That might make for good “street analysis” and water-cooler talk, but it belies the fact that his nephew Joe Kennedy, III, occupied Tip O’Neil’s old seat in Congress for ten years, which had previously been held by his uncle and late President Kennedy and prior to that, James Michael Curley. Joe was a big player in MA politics with a lot of clout; so much so that Scott Brown would still be a State Senator had Joe only said “yes” if asked by Gov. Deval Patrick to fill the senate seat held by Ted.
  When it came to defending his annulment, Joe was beaten, and beaten by an Episcopalian ex-wife who bore him two twin sons. Even in feudal states like Massachusetts, with a seemingly near unassailable “aristocratic” political family, the Church has ways of reminding her flock, be they powerful (or think they are) and the so-called “regular folk” that everybody can find justice in God’s courts.
  Not that I’m by any means a fan of Scott Brown, I’m glad Joe decided to stay in MA where he’s actually doing much more to improve the lot of so many people needing help when it comes to keeping their home boilers running and tanks filled with oil; especially in our winters, and the past one was one for the record books. As for Brown, well ... he’s yet to explain how he could stiff people on SSA, SSDI and disabled Vets out of a mere $250 check stimulus to offset their loss of COLA adjustments for two years running, all the while voting for the billionaires’ Bush tax cuts bash just before New Year’s. Well, notwithstanding his humble (and horrific origins), elect a Yankee with a Swamp Yankee fiscal mentality, you get what you pay for.

Pam:  My last comments to you were not published as, of course, everything Catholic is moderated.  Goodness, no, we would not want any opinions that would be in conflict to what your church deems as fact.  Let’s just agree to disagree on this.  Your views clearly are limited by what you believe are facts.  Some would say faith.  I would say “blind faith.”  To me, your views and understanding of the world and world history, especially your comments about the demise of past civilizations is long-ago disproved old-hat.  Just look at the numbers for a moment.  The religious right in the USA claims that only 3% of the population is gay/lesbian.  I think it is higher but I will accept these numbers.  Of that group, perhaps 50% actually would want to marry (just a guess).  So, the conclusion is that 1.5% of the population will cause the world as we know it to spiral in the Abyss of Hell for All Eternity?  It is all so ludicrous, I do not know why we even are discussing this issue.  When I re-read your comments it is clear that you see the world only through the eyes of what you were taught in your church.  I have a close friend, female, who was raised Catholic and still is very devout.  She told me, “You know, Chuck, there really is only one TRUE church.”  She really believes this!  Apparently, 5/6ths of the world’s population therefore is wrong.  This presumptuousness astounds me.  Here is what I know:  I know that my partner and I are happy.  Our daughter is happy.  She is growing up and doing so well and we are proud of her.  We do not worry about death and meeting whomever afterward.  You see, in order for us to worry here on earth about what you feel is going to happen to us upon our death would require us to believe as you do, and we do not.  Nor, apparently, do billions of other people.  What we are seeking is a civil marriage that has absolutely nothing to do with you or your church.  It just does not.  This is not a moral issue.  Even if it were, you and your church are not the moral guardians of the universe.  You are entitled to rail against us all you wish within the confines of the law.  Up until the RCC started funding efforts against us, I paid no attention to the RCC any more than I cared about what the local chapter of the Quakers were doing.  I respected their privacy.  They respected mine.  I read all your passive-aggressive and condescending statements and really feel sorry for your misguided understanding of the world.  I hope someday you take off the blinders and discover the rest of the world, or at least be open enough to acknowledge that another world exists.

@ChuckGG

> “So, the conclusion is that 1.5% of the population will cause the world as we know it to spiral in the Abyss of Hell for All Eternity?”

Same-sex “marriage” would deconstruct marriage, and solidify the moral losses of the last decades. Marriage was one seen as the cornerstone of family; it started to be seen as simply a contract for mutual benefit of spouses; if same-sex pairs can now “marry”, this view will be solidified - marriage will be just a pleasure exclusivity contract - no family needed. This happens irrespectively of the rarity of homosexuality.

> “You know, Chuck, there really is only one TRUE church.”  She really believes this!”

Of course.

> “Apparently, 5/6ths of the world’s population therefore is wrong.”

So what? Do you really think that Truth is defined by majority? When the majority of people thought that conquering other people to make them slaves was OK, was it OK?

> “What we are seeking is a civil marriage that has absolutely nothing to do with you or your church.”

It harms the common good, and we are concerned with the common good.

“Your views clearly are limited by what you believe are facts.  Some would say faith.”

Under our constitution, there is no requirement that everyone has to follow the same faith or even parts of it. Justice needs objective facts, not just one faith’s “Truth”. Then it is imposed on people to this degree we see others being downtrodden while masses disparage them as is clearly seen now.

To all those who insist upon this notion that homosexuality is unnatural, I say this: If something occurs in nature, then it is ipso facto natural.  Homosexuality is completely natural. It exists throughout the animal kingdom and throughout all human cultures since time immemorial.  Religion and celibacy are not natural.  It is religion that is the choice (that’s why you have to be baptized in a building built by men), not sexuality.

@ChuckGG: I understand where you are coming from, but first, again, our nation was formed on the foundations of belief in God. And so your willingness to destroy or dismiss that threatens the proper functioning of our government.  And actually most of the world believes in God.  They may call Him by other names but they recognize a creator and that there is a reality greater than us.  Faith is a gift and so not everyone has it but whoever bothers to ask will receive it if they ask sincerely.  God is knowable from the created universe as well.  Look at that young girl you are raising! Look at the marvel of a human being, of nature around you. You could find God if you wanted to, but there is someone who doesn’t want you to - the father of lies.  He will keep you focused on the flesh and here and now very happily.  I agree with what Nick said to you except the part about 5/6ths non-believers.  People can know the reality of God without being educated in the faith as well.  Their heart leads them to make moral choices based on this inner awareness of something greater than themselves.  You need to beware ChuckGG.  If you are on a Catholic site God may be trying to draw you closer!  He’s persistent and once he starts he doesn’t give up!  By the way I never made any comments about the demise of past civilizations, I merely pointed out that most if not all recognized that homosexual acts were either taboo or not best for the common good.  Also, I never asked you to worry about death and what comes after.  I asked if you ever think about it and if you are educating yourself about it.  And yes I am aware there are many people who do not know about God or care about God or care to know about God and I also know that at any given moment God can give anyone the grace to believe.  Christians are well aware that we live in a world at odds with Christian values, but we work for the benefit of all mankind, not just ourselves.
M germaine,  No one is being downtrodden and disparaged who is being asked to look honestly at the whole picture.  Homosexual acts work against the biology of the bodies involved.  Pride can make admitting that a stumbling block.

@M germaine

> “Under our constitution, there is no requirement that everyone has to follow the same faith or even parts of it. Justice needs objective facts, not just one faith’s “Truth””

Who said Christianity is not objective?

>“Then it is imposed on people”

Christianity is imposed on who? Who is being forced to go to Mass under threat of prison?

M germaine, Inspector Javert couldn’t have put it any better. However, my sincerest apologies if I misinterpreted your comments.

Pam, Nick, Great job defending the faith! 

Blind Faith is a great faith!  It is the most wonderful Grace, to know that you don’t have to have proof that the Lord God created you, loves you, and desires eternal happiness for you!  Oh happy is the soul that embraces blind faith!

I wrote earlier about reverting back to my Catholic Faith from living a lesbian lifestyle.  I wish I could share with those who don’t believe how awesome it is to be back in God’s Grace!

It isn’t natural to be in a same sex relationship, though I will never deny that there was something of great comfort, being able to relate to someone, be understood, feel accepted, that was increasingly seductive.  However, it is impossible to be honest with oneself, at least it was for me, about why heterosexual couples can have children, yet there are hoops to jump through, and negotiations to be made with the desire to have children in a SS relationship.  Why? Because the human body, human relationship is not made for same sex to procreate!

I fought with God on these issues, it was so hard, so very hard.  There was just no denying that biology is clearly male and female!

For me the fight was lost when I came as close to dying as I did.  Yes, maybe my Catholic upbringing, and Catholic Education kicked in, but personally, I believe it was the Mercy and Love of Jesus and His awesome Mother, that provided me with the ability to recognize that wether you believe in an after life or not, is irrelevant.  When you are called to stand before Truth Himself, He will demand you account for your life.

I was blessed with a miracle, a Grace, as I was filled with the most overwhelming love for God, and in that love did not want to risk disappointing Him.  Did not want my own selfishness, my unnatural desires to cause Him pain.

If there was one thing I would ask of our Lord, it would be to allow all those who fight this fight without being aware that they are fighting HIM, be made aware.  That souls would be saved, and that the Truth would be self evident.

However, if He were standing here before me as I type this, I know what He would say.  He gave us free will. He is not going to command anyone to love Him.  So I offer up my sufferings for those who will come to the same conclusion that I did.

Jesus and Mary I love You, save souls!  St. Joseph, I ask you to intercede for those who should know your Foster Son, and deny Him.  May the peace of Christ reign in the hearts of all who will at least consider that this life is fleeting, and if there is an afterlife, they might be open to considering that Jesus is a Merciful Lord, and will welcome all, with faith.

“Christianity is imposed on who? Who is being forced to go to Mass under threat of prison?”—-Nice attempt at deflection. Imposing your church’s restrictions on what supposedly constitutes a marriage on those who are not part of your church, using the government to do so, is forcing at least that piece of your religion on those who do not believe it. That’s a violation of the First Amendment rights of everyone else *not* to follow Catholicism.

Meanwhile, the opposite is not true: if two men or two women are considered by the government to be eligible to marry, that does not stop you from keeping them out of your church, from speaking of the “evils” of homosexuality, of declining to perform their weddings, of not recognizing them as being married (so long, of course, as you abide by the *legal* rights involved, such as medical decision-making in hospitals, and why anybody would deny THAT sort of thing anyway is beyond me), etc. It’s not a matter where both ways harm the other. All the infringement is done on your side.

Pam:  I think we have beaten this horse even deader.  I have read and re-read the comments from you, Nick, and others and while I appreciate your comments and your thoughts, there is little with which we agree.  Your references as to how our country was founded under a belief in God and all that is questionable at best.  If you (and others) would open yourself up to studying all of history and, in this case, history of the USA and the individual histories of the founding fathers, I think you would be quite surprised at their actual beliefs.  Please also go through the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and other significant official documents and count the number of times “God” appears in the text.  Certainly, Christ does not.  The closest you will find is “Creator.”  I just recently learned of this whole trinity concept in the RCC where God and Christ are one in the same (or something) which really bumps up against the original idea of an overall Creator and then a “pick and choose your prophet” concept.  That is why, to me, “In God We Trust” on the money does not imply Christ.  This must be confusing to the RCC.

Back to the founding fathers:  These people were a product of the Age of Enlightenment, were closer to scientists, great thinkers, independent thinkers, and people of very critical thinking.  Dogma was not in their thinking.  You should read the re-write of the bible done by Thomas Jefferson, called the “Jeffersonian Bible” as an example.  I am separating the founding fathers of the 1700’s from the Pilgrims, of course.

Just to clear things up - I was not drawn to this website by any supernatural power.  I have an “Alert” web-crawler provided by Google to give me all news filtered on the phrase, “gay marriage.”  This website and article was a result of that search.  Hardly any hocus-pocus there.

My impression, right or wrong, is that many people “buy in,” for lack of a better phrase, to various religious concepts whatever those might be.  They derive some sort of comfort from this.  I suspect this buy-in occurs very early in life and it really doesn’t matter if it is Catholicism or Islam or Evangelical Christianity.  It is burned in early and as such people tend to apply whatever happens to them and whatever they happen to do and experience as directly related to this influence.  I suspect given the same event, experienced by different people, you would hear entirely different explanations as to how and why a particular event occurred and what was the implied meaning of the event.  This is perfectly understandable.  Again, I have no problem with any of this.  In this country, people are free to practice any religion they choose, or none.

I was not raised in that kind of environment where the entire world and my life was preordained and explained to me which, again, is my impression of the RCC (and many other strict religions).  Again, not a problem, but not my cup of tea, nor in this society which broke away from England for just this reason (and other reasons), should I be subjected to the rules and regulations of your flavor of religion, or to Islam, for that matter.

But, you see, all of what I am speaking revolves around logic and in my many discussion on boards similar to this one, when logic meets religion, very rarely is there much agreement.  I worked very hard to retain same-sex marriage in Maine, donating time and money to the effort to counter-act the intrusion from the RCC and other religious groups, but did not work.  In a State of 1.3 million people, the law was repealed by only 30,000 votes.  I find it interesting that the head of the Marriage Equality law repeal group, employed by the local RCC, has since come forward and has admitted that he is sorry for the hyperbole and negative ads his group put forth.  Well, too late.  I accept his apology and let’s move forward.

I think we all know that same-sex marriage eventually will be the law of the land, whether or not your church agrees.  And, of course, it matters not in secular world what the RCC thinks.  Even the Southern Evangelical diehards admit “we have lost on that one [same-sex marriage].”  The young people are in favor of it, just as they are with contraception and birth control, despite what the RCC may state. 

I hope you all understand that I am, and I think my family is, too, very much at peace with ourselves.  We are happy, content, and feel no guilt or remorse or shame or suffering or even concern.  Perhaps, it is the area we live in that admittedly is upper-middle income and with high percentages of college grads (DC suburbs) that we simply do not experience any of these negative issues.  We do not feel any guilt because we were not taught any guilt.  I wish you all the best.

I will continue to work for legal, secular same-sex marriage in order to provide additional safety and security to my family in this secular world.

@Jay

> “To all those who insist upon this notion that homosexuality is unnatural, I say this: If something occurs in nature, then it is ipso facto natural.”

Are you serious? When we say that homosexuality is unnatural, we are talking about natural law, which is a branch of philosophy. Natural law IS NOT ABOUT IMITATING ANIMALS.

Maybe some animals practice same-sex acts. But animals also practice incest, polygamy, and eat their own offspring.

“Some animals do it” is an extremely poor argument for the morality or healthiness or an act.

As a society, we seem to discourage activity which lowers the likelihood of health and longevoity, I.e. Smoking, obesity.  This seems reasonable. Why, on the other hand, should we strive to promote activity that is as unnatural as it is unhealthy?

Pam, what you are doing is preaching, and to base legislation on it. We can’t have one church or one interpretation of “Truth”, that’s why our country was founded, not just what you refer to as Christianity, but a non-denominational one.
Many of the rest of the posts follow just that. This all very arcane to expect someone outside of your church to swallow hook line and sinker when he’s forced to have a personal life that is invalidated by the people expecting it of him.
Have any of you, and this has been asked before, wondered how it is to be expected to give up sexuality entirely because someone else finds the idea uncomfortable because of their church?
I would like you to describe to us what that would be like. Till then, I can’t say any of this is “Christian”. I can’t imagine why one should expect others to live the way your feel we should based on Mrs. J’s “blind faith”, or Nick’s feeling that asking this sacrifice is not “imposed” when your church is lobbying for it.
I am not seeing much attention to the realities of this. I live the reality, this is not “compassion”.

“I think we have beaten this horse even deader ...”
  Time to call out Dr. Groucho,
  This thread is in danger of becoming perhaps “deader” than some of the sorry ponies I wasted my money on, not to mention my time on some very lost political causes, some of whom were individual candidates and others just lost causes.  But one thing you’ll never lose your shirt on, betting on the need to put some humor into a commentary thread that gets a little bumpy as the race heads down the final stretch with either Harpo or Chico riding backwards.
  This “gay marriage” issue, no matter how many elections, referrendums, and the like, will still wind up being decided by the courts on the grounds I mentioned above: You cannot get away with taxing a whole group of people who, for one reason or another, just happen to be different than others, while at the same time enforcing laws that are specifically targeted against them.
  Catholics have a difficult time getting elected president or nominated to the Supreme Court or other high offices if they are perceived to show any favoritism to the Holy See. Yes, it’s unfair and wrong. But it’s overcome-able. Sadly our only Catholic president JFK felt it necessary to toss his own Magisterium to the Baptists in 1960, but he was under no requirement to do so. There are legally binding restrictions against homosexuals marrying and so long as we continue to (rightly) uphold our Founders’ objection to taxation without representation, as it is more or less enshrined in our nation’s “legal tradition” for the legal magisterium (the Judiciary) to use at its discretion, one of these days, an appellate judge or the Supreme Court will do just that. I’m not trying to “telegraph” any signals out to advocates of same sex marriage. No doubt their lawyers and paralegals have already given thought to using this. If they haven’t, I’ll be the most shocked man in the land. (But I’m not counting on being that shocked, nor should anybody reading this article and thread.)

In the meantime, hey, let’s lighten up. Go watch a Marx Brothers movie before getting all riled up. God gave us muscles in our mouths for laughing. Use ‘em.

Steven:  I am inclined to agree with you on the final decision falling to the Courts.  As you seem to agree there is a minority out there that is being discriminated against on the tax issue, you might therefore wonder why this issue is put to the voters at all?  Had the Civil Rights Act of 1964 been put to the popular vote (especially in the South), the white majority easily would have voted down civil rights for blacks.  Johnson came in, signed the bill into law, and commented that he now had “lost the south for the Democrats.”  And, surely he did.  At the time, the Dixie Democrats were closer to today’s Tea Party Express.  They switched to the Republican Party after Reagan wooed them and Carter failed to be the religious conservative they so craved.  Eventually, the RNC went from the “country club Republicans” and a business crowd (when I joined the RNC), and turned into what it is now just a former shell of itself espousing radical fiscal plans and SOCIAL conservatism (read:  religious fundamentalism) at the forefront of its agenda.  It is not the Republican Party I signed up for.  Barry Goldwater, a true conservative, is noted for saying, “You don’t have to be straight to shoot straight,” when asked if he (a decorated WWII veteran) could have a gay soldier in his ranks.

In DC, there is a law stating that the civil rights of a minority cannot be voted upon by the majority.  This makes perfect sense and obviously is there as a result of the civil rights issues so prominent in the nation’s capital.  In fact, when DC legalized same-sex marriage, there was all kinds of hand-wringing and a brouhaha about this, but the Council stuck to its guns and upheld the law.  So far, no problems.

But, to get to the point here - it would be nice if the Legislatures would do the right thing and remedy this unfairness in the civil code but it is a hot potato issue.  Courts in many other countries have resolved this by telling their Parliaments to provide within a certain time frame justifiable reasons for this discrimination.  They could not and thus the Courts lifted the restriction against same-sex marriage.

In the Prop-8 case, the court proceeding is available in transcript form and is an interesting read.  The arguments against same-sex marriage were extremely weak and from a legal standpoint were nearly embarrassingly bad.  It simply comes down to this in the Court - there is no legal basis upon which to deny same-sex marriage.  The findings were that society and the marriage of others will be unaffected [this was the testimony of many experts and even cross-examination could not cite a contrary example] by same-sex marriage.  There also are many examples around the world of other countries with a long history of same-sex marriage and no adverse effects.  Nearby Canada is one.

I believe one very basic concept is missing here.  In the USA, there is a presumption that you are permitted to do whatever you would like to do except where prohibited by law.  The new same-sex marriage law essentially will be “lifting this restriction” and not, per se, granting a new “right.”  For example, when the ban against inter-racial marriage finally was removed from the law it did not grant a new right.  It simply removed the “ban” against this secular marriage law restriction.  I would not doubt there still are some churches out there in the USA that refuse to perform an inter-racial marriage or a marriage in which one or both of the partners is a divorced person.

But, you see, it does not really matter what those churches believe as far as the State is concerned.  The church may do, or not, as it sees fit.  As long a the State and Federal law recognizes same-sex marriage legally, we can file jointly on our Income taxes, and obtain a whole slew of other rights automatically granted to straight couples.

Again, Steven, I come back to my comments about logic vs. religion.  From a legal standpoint, this is such an open-and-shut case, I am surprised it has reached the level it has.  It probably would not had the churches not fired up the torches and pitchforks and marched on the village square.

And, I agree with you - we all need to lighten up on all this.  Let me tell you what is going to happen when same-sex marriage becomes legalized - absolutely nothing.  It will be beyond ho-hum.  The churches that already perform same-sex marriages will continue to do so, those that don’t, won’t.  I hardly expect a herd of gay men and women to be parading around some Catholic church asking to be married in the church.  If they do, that is between them and their church.  I have nothing to do with it.  The State could not care less - as long a couple has a valid marriage license, the marriage can be performed by clergy or a Justice of the Peace (where no religious mention is made) in a civil ceremony.  To the State, that couple is married, just as if they were married in a church.  The church may disagree but the State will not.

So, yes, let’s lighten up, celebrate people who love each other getting married and call it good.

The paradox is this: homosexualists demand that what they do with their bodies in private is private and at the same time demand public acknowledgement that what they do in private is the same as what a male and a female do with their bodies in private.

The only way clear of the paradox is to acknowledge nothing: homosexuals do nothing hence no rights are being trampled.

“Have any of you, and this has been asked before, wondered how it is to be expected to give up sexuality entirely because someone else finds the idea uncomfortable because of their church?”

The issue is that ‘gay’ marriage has not been condoned or recognized by the vast majority, regardless of religious affiliation, since our Nation’s founding (and before). Everywhere the issue comes up, 70% of voters say ‘no’ to gay ‘marriage’. Marriage has and continues to be defined as a union between one man and one woman. Any shifting of that definition will inevitably lead to marriage ‘universalism’ and thus the devaluation of marriage as an important institution.

P.S. Some people here are trying to malign and silence opposition by pointing out the sins of a small group of priests from decades ago. I would only point out that it is an easily discoverable fact that children are abused by primarily by male relatives. Moreover, I don’t see the news media reporting successful overhauls of public school policies, even that teachers have abused far more children. Pedophilia isn’t a clergy problem or Catholic problem: it is a human problem, and one that is being blamed on the only organization doing something constructive about it.

ChuckGG Are you from Maine or DC?  I hear that you are saying you had no moral foundation that would oppose any kind of sexual activity.  And you have no interest in reading the Bible.  Life with no God allows you to be happy doing whatever you deem is important.  Christians and the founding fathers, (except Ben Franklin), know life is more than here and now. Many people could give you witnesses of their personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We know there is a God and the “rigid” laws you think we have are not “rigid laws”.  The Son of God, Jesus Christ, became man. This Jesus is more historically verifiable than any other historical figure.  This Jesus came to help us understand we had a loving Creator.  He didn’t hand us “rigid laws”. He explained how we are made and what we are created for.  The ten commandments for instance tell us “Thou shalt not covet.” - not because it is a rigid law but because the sin destroys love and draws us away from God. They are a sure way to live in greater peace and draw closer to God.  They are in OUR best interest from the God who loves us. The same is true of all the other things you label “rigid”.  Homosexual relations are sinful because they are against the nature of the body and deny God’s grace to overcome sin and because they destroy normal relations between humans.  Friendship has been distorted into a potential sexual liason. Strangers are no longer assumed to be “the friend you haven’t met yet” but are now “stranger danger.”  People are being sorted and stereotyped based on appearance or interests and are not being permitted to become the young men and women they were created to be. This sexual license breeds pedophilia and incest and polygamy and any other sexual perversion. Your amorality is harmful to all of that. It is a blindness to the whole spiritual reality that sin begets more sin.  And God has counted the hairs on your head so don’t be so sure he didn’t know you would be on this site.  God reaches out to people all kinds of ways. You are hearing of Him on this site and you are being forced to learn something because of the RCC’s role in upholding marriage as the union of a man and a woman.  You have talked to a Catholic friend to understand more about your present “enemy”.  If you keep searching you will find you really just met your best friend.  I believe there will be a spiritual reawakeining and you will not see homosexual marriages become law throughout our nation, but if I am wrong then Jesus is returning very soon.

David B, you quoted my question but did not answer it. Can you or anyone else fathom what you are asking of homosexuals? Can you in any way describe what it is like for the homosexual to give this up for your church?
Part of the problem is that none of you ever has.

DavidB:  First off, I disagree with your assessment of what gay marriage will do to “straight” marriage.  Your numbers of 70% are way off given 3 separate polls recently completed showing a slight majority of Americans now favor same-sex marriage.  I suspect from 2009 when the last comprehensive poll was done that the entire gay marriage issue has been brought more into the public attention, discussed more, and more “straight” people actually have met gay families such as mine and found we are rather ho-hum suburbanites.  Clearly, young people are way ahead on this issue.  You might check the age group of those who attend your church.  I suspect you will find, as is the case in many other churches (meaning other faiths as those actually, you know) the median age is pretty advanced.

On your other point - I always am astounded at the spin and redirection the RCC puts on almost everything.  For a group with parishioners who go around looking for swords to fall on, the management rarely admits fault.  In DC, when they legalized same-sex marriage, the Catholic Charities, Inc., claims it was “forced” [their words] to cease the adoption placement program.  Well, no, the Catholic Charities, Inc., chose to cease their adoption program rather than comply with the city’s non-discrimination policy.  Just a fact.  Furthermore, your attempt to water-down the priest abuse case misses a few points.  It has been going on for decades.  While other institutions also have their problems with pedophilia, as a percentage, the RCC is way up there.  Your own numbers reported 4,700+ priests over the decades, with many more cases.  But, moreover, the role the RCC is supposed to be playing, the holier than thou, the pillar of the community, the unquestioned authority, and so on, is shockingly tarnished when these abuses occur.  You also seem to have forgotten the utter and blatant hypocrisy behind all this.  And, finally, probably worst of all, except for the scars the victims will forever carry, is the systematic, decades long, deliberate cover-up rising through the ranks to the highest positions of the RCC.  In no other institution have I heard of a cover-up on this scale.  When such abuse is discovered by a school or by the authorities, swift action follows.  Now, a report has been released, funded by the RCC, blaming the abuses on the societal permissiveness of the late 1960’s and 1970’s - the “Woodstock Defense.”  Excuse me?  How do you then explain the significant number of abuses from the much earlier years - to at least the 1950’s onward?  Much before that and I suppose the abusers and their victims mostly are dead. 

Far more teachers?  Of course, because there are more teachers than priests by a long-shot.  Successful overhauls of public school policies?  Sure.  There now are rather complete background screenings of teachers.  Are you implying that the RCC has now “cleaned house” and once again is pure as the driven snow?  Be serious.

Spin it all you want.  The facts are the facts.  You cannot water this down by spreading the blame.

Devin wrote:  “God will judge in the end. I feel pretty secure that I will be judged a decent person. I doubt you will.”

Devin wins the Irony Cookie.  After saying that ‘God will judge in the end’ (which is very true), he follows it up with two judgments:  of his own condition, and of the writer’s.

Pam:  We live in the DC suburbs.  The old family farm is in Maine where we plan to retire and has been in the family for many generations.  I am from Maine originally.  Hence, my interest in the RCC’s intrusion and unfortunately successful attempt at repealing the secular law, Marriage Equality.

I doubt you understand that when I read the whole story you put forth, I really do believe this is what you believe.  You are entitle to believe as such.  You are as convinced of this as I am that the earth revolves around the sun.  It took the RCC a few years to buy into that concept, too.  Just as eventually, they will come up with something like Vatican III to get the RCC up to perhaps the 19th century.  No need to rush things.

As I said before, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this.  The only difference, I see, is that I am willing to “live and let live” (an old Maine tradition recently lost) while the RCC wants to control my family’s lives even though we are not members of its organization.

Pam:  One other point - the “moral foundation” of which you speak is not the sole purview of the RCC or of any church.  In my upbringing, there was a strong emphasis on being a gentleman (or gentlewoman, as the case may be) and understanding etiquette and courtesy toward others.  This, along with 18-piece silver settings and how to set them was drilled into us by my Dad and his mother (my grandmother) from old prim-and-proper Beacon Hill Boston.  Just to dispel your thoughts - no, we were not super-wealthy but probably better off than some, worse off than others.  Money does not equate to manners, we were taught.  Certainly, that is evidenced all around us.  I think the “moral foundation” we were taught related to how to treat others and it did not come from a church.  You probably could argue that the manners of the genteel evolved from social mores that included teachings from religion.  I would say that is true but also included many other influences to create this set of “manners.”  These seem to be in short supply of late.

I also would point out that I have a number of friends from other countries (you get that in DC with so much diversity).  One friend, who was raised in Mao’s Communist China had no background in religion as, of course, it was banned under Mao.  He is a perfect gentleman and of great character, as is all of his family.  So, again, I don’t see the “moral foundation” as being something that is obtained only from a church, RCC or otherwise.  There is a whole world out there of different people and cultures, many of whom know zero around your RCC and they are doing just fine.  It is interesting/amusing when he inquires of some religious issue in the news that his partner, a self-professed “recovering Catholic,” mentions.  It makes no more logical sense to him than to me but we try to explain what the issue is about.  I suppose it would be the same if someone explained the intricate details of Islam or Confucianism.  To the person of that faith, it makes perfect sense.  To the outside, it can be a tad odd.

I will stick with what I have, thanks.

We have moral values because they make life better for society and the individual.  When religious freedoms are erroded all freedoms are lost.  Simply look at any country that does not allow religious freedom and you will see that their are no personal freedoms.  (i.e. China, Middel Eastern countries, Cuba, Russia to name a few)
 
Now I would like to pose a question to those supportive of homosexuality.  Let’s suppose that homosexaulity is discovered to be a condition one is born with. This “gene” can be discovered prior to the birth, does the mother of this child have the “right” to abort this baby because she does not want to have a homosexual child?

Cynthia:  Yes, we have moral values for the reason you state.  Where I disagree is that one need not obtain/learn about morality strictly from some religion.  Morality lessons have been around since the beginning of recorded time and are well-known in Greek and Roman history, long before Christ arrived.  And, I simply see NO infringement upon your religious freedom, as you seem to claim.  You are more than entitled in this country to participate in whatever religion you so choose.  The line is drawn when you try to force your version of religious morality on others.  The fact is that same-sex marriage has no effect on your marriage.  It just does not.  And, your definition of morality is different than mine.  Where I respect your right to practice your religion, you do not respect my right to not practice your religion.  You have to grasp the concept, as hard as that may be, that you have no more right to tell me how to live than you do a Buddhist or a Muslim. 

With regard to your question on abortion, assuming the mother meets the legal criteria (1st trimester), she has the right to abort any fetus she so chooses.  Frankly, I think the kid would be better off aborted than raised by a mother with that kind of narrow-minded attitude. I pity her other children.  That said, I am no fan of abortion, especially in this day and age when there are so many effective contraceptive methods out there.  It seems odd an unwanted pregnancy should occur.  Of course, there always is the rape/incest/priest issue.  But, if a pregnancy did occur, I would not deny the mother the procedure.  I would recommend adoption to her as an option.

To me, this all makes logical sense, but my understanding is that the RCC does not approve of contraception despite a huge majority of American Catholics practicing birth control (and not that lame rhythm method).  In fact, I thought it was a “mortal sin.”  As far as adoption goes, the RCC disapproves of same-sex partners adopting a child.  That really is tragic as so many children need a home.

Your hangup seems to be that you consider homosexuality to be immoral.  I do not.  What I consider immoral is bigotry, hatred, and intolerance of one’s fellow man.  Everyone yaps on endlessly about Christ but I am not seeing a whole lot of what I understand to be Christian values.

“We have moral values because they make life better for society and the individual.”

And how does expecting a group of people to completely deny their sexuality make life better for that individual? Does it make others that much more comfortable?

Cynthia—why do you assume that anyone who supports gay rights, must also support abortion rights?

Pam:  Your comment: “God reaches out to people all kinds of ways. You are hearing of Him on this site and you are being forced to learn something because of the RCC’s role in upholding marriage as the union of a man and a woman.  You have talked to a Catholic friend to understand more about your present “enemy”.  If you keep searching you will find you really just met your best friend.  I believe there will be a spiritual reawakeining and you will not see homosexual marriages become law throughout our nation, but if I am wrong then Jesus is returning very soon.”

It occurred to me - Do you suppose God sent me to this website to educate readers such as yourself to become more tolerant and understanding of others?  Perhaps, He sent me here to urge you to reach out and find a local gay family and discover they are as ordinary as everyone else and they love their children in the same way traditional parents do?  Perhaps, He knows that once His children who have your misunderstanding of gay families actually come to know a gay family, their attitude toward marriage equality often changes?  Perhaps, He wants you to listen to Him and not to the intolerance of a church run by imperfect man?  If the church were perfect and run by God, how could the priest abuse problem have occurred (not to forget the many injustices done to others over the centuries)?  As you said, God reaches out to people in all kinds of ways.

Chuck at what point do you think a mother loses her parental right to make choices for her child?

To ChuckGG, freye, Joseph,  There have been statements or inuendo made as truth that are lies.  1. Homosexual marriage does affect heterosexual marriage. 2. Catholic Charities was not forced out of adoptions.3.  It is bigotry or hatred to think homosexual relations are immoral, bad for society and the individuals involved. 4. Only people who accept homosexuality really accept diversity. 5. Asking a group to forgo activity that is pleasurable to them but is harmful to society is unreasonable and unrealistic especially when it involves sexual desire. 6. Christians never say things that would offend anyone.  7. You can do immoral acts and be a moral person. 
As to #1. This blog is proof positive that it does in fact affect heterosexual marriage.  Look at the attitude toward faith, the push for legalizing sex based on desire as opposed to God, the laws that are meant to crush faith based opposition to homosexuality, the brainwashing of the upcoming generation, the young men and women who would have been spouses but are now homosexual and on and on.
#2. Catholic Charities was not permitted to follow its faith in choosing adoptive parents.  It is being discriminated against because it knows every child should have a mother and a father, the yin and the yang, the complementary set and because it knows that the child is born with a soul and that soul should seek what is above and not be focused on the flesh.
#3. It is not bigotry to recognize “The Emperor’s New Clothes”.  You can say the sky is red and everyone might believe you, but it doesn’t make the sky less blue.
#4. Accepting diversity need not entail throwing out faith. America has always welcomed people from all nations.  We have worked to make them feel American - part of our nation, part of the who we are, teaching them what that means and the foundations our nation was built on.  Accepting diversity doesn’t mean losing your own identity.  And it doesn’t mean you are blind to things that could destroy the nation you have become.
#5. We make all kinds of laws limiting behavior.  We have moral parameters.  We put the welfare of children ahead of adults.
#6. If Christians aren’t offending anyone then they aren’t spreading the truth.  Christ said he didn’t come to bring peace.  He let His followers know that following Him would cause division.  Household against household, Parent against child,etc.  The truth is sin exists and God has conquered sin.  When we are in His grace we can overcome it and when we are not it overcomes us.  (So to answer the question, “Do you understand what you are asking homosexuals to give up?” I answer YES!!!!  I have experienced God’s grace first hand and I know that you will not be forever tormented you will actually LOSE ALL DESIRE to commit the sin!!!!  See comment by Mrs. J. above! ((Thank you Mrs. J. for your witness.)).
#7. You can’t do things “a little immoral”.  You have to admit your sin. You can’t cheat on your tests and be a good guy.  You are really not a good guy (and you know it) until you stop cheating on the tests.  You can’t flaunt the laws of your body and God and say you are a moral person.

“Not at all; religious freedom does not mean the “right” to have it recognized by the state. For example, Muslims may want polygamy, but the state does not recognize polygamous marriages. And that is OK.”

The meaning of “religious freedom” from the POV of the state may not be what Catholic political doctrine means by “religious freedom”. Since the US is not in any sense a Catholic country, there is no reason why there cannot be a right to religious freedom, or gay marriage, or abortion, or to a thousand other things the CC disapproves of. It doesn’t at all follow that because the Church doesn’t recognise marriage, no other authority can or will. This may be very deplorable from a Catholic POV - but not everyone is Catholic, so it is useless to require those who are not, to think with the CC, as they are not members of it. The CC is entitled to perform marriages as it wishes - one of the things it can’t do, is expect everyone else in society to share its views. So if Catholics wish to avail themselves of any legal rights they may have by law to enter a gay marriage, ther is nothing the Church can do to prevent them.

“Read the letters of Peter and James and Jude and Paul in the Bible. They all speak strongly in opposition to sexual sin.  Remember Sodom and Gemorrah.”

The S & G story in Gen. 19 seems to be about humiliation by (gang-)rape of “angelic” beings (cf. Jude 7; 2 Peter 2.10); it’s a variant of a similar story in Judges 19, & of the story in Gen.6.1-4 of how the “sons of God”, IOW divine beings, “went into” mortal women, “the daughters of men”. The desscription of the destruction owes a lot to description of the Flood, & its present form the Sodom story is a companion-piece to the story in 18 about how Abraham would have a son. It has nothing to do w/ homosexuality. It’s a confusion-story, like the story of the Flood & that about the Tower in Gen.11.

The Sodom story is frequently referred to through both Testaments - usually as an example of a proud and inhospitable city that meets with judgement (Isaiah 1; Ezekiel 16). Reference to homosexuality is notable by its absence. Sodom is the typical evil city - which is why it is mentioned in Revelation.

As for Romans 1: St.Paul had a perfect opportunity to talk about Sodom, if homosexuality is “the sin of Sodom” - & he doesn’t do so. What he is talking about can hardly be homosexuality, for otherwise he would be arguing that idolatry leads to homosexuality, which is absurd, because manifestly untrue. His meaning becomes much clearer if he is referring to Wisdom 14, as his words suggest he is. 

“Sexual sin has consequences.” Of course.

To ChuckGG:  You recognize the damage homosexual relations have had on the Catholic priesthood and the Catholic faith.  The sins of the flesh has hurt the Church’s credibility because the acts of a few, not practicing what they preach and not adequately adressing the sinful acts, has left people doubting the many.  This is the fruit of the sin.  Aids is another fruit.  By the fruit you can see if things are a good or not.  Hopefully you will recognize the sinful fruit of all homosexual relations.  Happily, the Church is greater than the sins of some members.  Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. He is truly present in the sacraments.  Catholics do not accept the failures of some as ok.  They recognize that grave sins occurred and people were harmed. They feel the sense of betrayal and frustration at the response to the sinful actions that you have.  But despite all of that they know that God is truly present in the Catholic Church and they go there to seek Him, not some individual priest. So many holy priests have suffered because of the actions of a few who betrayed their call.

“Now I would like to pose a question to those supportive of homosexuality.  Let’s suppose that homosexaulity is discovered to be a condition one is born with. This “gene” can be discovered prior to the birth, does the mother of this child have the “right” to abort this baby because she does not want to have a homosexual child?”

Try asking members of the Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians. The very existence of such a body may answer your question.

The only thing gays have in common is being gay - it’s complete nonsense to suppose that they must necessary all have the same views on religion, society, politics, ethics, etc. It’s as silly as thinking that every who is heterosexual must be conservative, or that everyone in China is identical, or that all Christians are stupid & Fundamentalist. There are lots of silly and damaging stereotypes around, & they need to be dismantled. There are gay atheists, gays who are very traditional Catholics, gays of every conceivable political, social, or religious outlook. To represent all as being anti-Catholic or anti-Christian or anti-God is nothing but ignorance.

Posted by freye on Friday, Jun 10, 2011 9:23 PM (EDT):

“We have moral values because they make life better for society and the individual.”

And how does expecting a group of people to completely deny their sexuality make life better for that individual? Does it make others that much more comfortable?

## It sets an example to all those predator clergy, I suppose. Gays are expected to take vows of life-long continence & celibacy - whether they are called to life-long continence & celibacy, or not. At least aspirants to the clergy go through a period of discernment - this something not afforded to homosexuals, who just have get on with it. No wonder people leave the Church, when they are required to do something beyond human strength, without being given the means. Paedophiles are treated better than this.

And the Church Clerical is surprised that so many Catholics - and not only Catholics - hate it. It has no understanding whatever of what it is like to be gay, but that doesn’t stop it messing around in the lives of others. It has no moral right to tell people what to do when it has no understanding of what their lives are like. If God Himself can live a human life among human beings rather than give orders from the safety of the sidelines, then the same sort of life is good enough for the Church Clerical. When the Pope asks members of Arcigay or Stonewall or PFLAG what being gay is like, & when gay Catholics are able to contribute to bishops’ letters on matters affecting homosexuals, then the Church Clerical will have shown itself fit to speak of how homosexuals should behave. Until then, it has no competence to tell them how to behave, any more than a deaf man can be competent to judge between a Beethoven symphony & and a ska band. But as matters stand at present, it is so concerned with principles & laws & ideas that it it cannot see the people whom its teaching affects, except as anonymous members of a group it would rather did not exist.

ChuckGG at what point after delivering her baby does a woman loose her parental right of making decisions for her child?

Gosh, a lot of questions.

Cynthia: “At what point after delivering her baby does a woman loose her parental right of making decisions for her child?”  //// Okay, not sure where this is going, but in most States that is the age of majority and that usually is 18.  However, certainly she must comply with the law while raising the child - feed, clothe, and all that.

Pam:  We are just never going to agree on any of this.  You believe being gay is sinful, immoral, and a danger to society and your church.  I do not.  It is that simple.  You again make the presumption that I buy into all the religious quotes and such and, again, I do not.  It is interesting to me that you never once (that I can see) considered the idea that a same-sex couple wants to marry because they love each other.  You seem to put our relationship on par with two dogs humping in the park.  You know, love is involved in this.  It is not all “sins of the flesh,” as you call it.  I find it odd you hover on the whole sexual relations part.  At any rate, we never are going to find any common ground.  In the past, it truly never crossed my mind as to what the RCC was doing or what they believed anymore than I cared about the beliefs of some Fundamentalist church in Mudflaps, Mississippi.  A good quote I heard:  “It is much like watching the maneuvers of the Belgian navy - mildly interesting but of no consequence.”  It is only since the RCC has dumped in money and time into imposing on my life that I am on a Crusade of my own.  Because of the RCC effort to repeal legal, secular marriage, I am considered a second-class citizen and we are now denied the right to participate in a legal, secular wedding ceremony.  This will not be for long, however.  The Supreme Court will rule on the Prop-8 question.  Surveys across the board show the American public is over the 50% mark for approving of same-sex marriages.  But, most importantly, the young people show a large majority favoring same-sex marriage.  These numbers will only increase over time.  And, even is I cannot legally marry my partner of 13+ years, at least the younger generation will be able to.  Having been a gay activist since the 1970’s, I have seen the changes over the years and while it all takes time, life today is far better than it was 40 years ago.  I hope you find peace, Pam.  Carrying this much angst toward a group who bears you no ill will is not good for your soul.

Manticore, Your understanding of Sodom and Gemorrah is mistaken.  Sexual sin is not offensive to just Catholics but to all Christians and to Jews and Muslims as well and surely many faiths I am not familiar with. Repent and believe the Good News and be free of these unnatural desires.  God will give the grace!  Ask and you WILL receive! And as much as some would like to destroy it and wish it weren’t so, we are still the United States of America, a nation under God!

From the New American Bible:

Romans 1:18,24-28 “The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness…Therefore,  God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed themover to degrading passions.  Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another.  Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.”

1Corinthians 6: 18-19 “Avoid immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the immoral person sins against his own body.  do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy Sirit within you, whom you have from God,and that your are not your own?  For you have been pruchased at a price.  Therefore , glorify God in your body.”

1Thessalonians 4:3-8 “This is the will of God, your holiness: that you refrain from immorality,....For God did not call us to impurity but to holiness.  Therefore whoever disregards this disregards not a human being but God ...”

1Corinthians 6: 9 “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived neither fornicators nor idolaters nor aduterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

2Peter 2: 4-10 “For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment; and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, together with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the godless world; and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, making them an example for the godless of what is coming; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man oppressed by the licentious conduct of unprincipaled people (for day after day that righteous man living among them was tormented in his righteous soul at the lawless deeds that he saw and heard),then the Lord knows how to rescue the devout from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishement for the day of judgment and especially those who follow the flesh with its depraved desire and show contempt for lordship.”

Jude 1:5-7 “I wish to remind you, although you know all things, that the Lord who once saved a people from the land of Egypt later destroyed those who did not believe. The angels too, who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling he has kept in eternal chains, in gloom, for the judgment of the great day.  Likewise, Sodom, Gommorah, and the surrounding towns, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”

Chuck GG: re your comment “has it occurred to you…”  See the quotes I just posted to Manticore.  “God is light and in Him there is no darkness.”  Unnatural relations are a form of darkness.  But to answer your question more fully, God has shown me the SIN in the homosexual relationship my whole life. Pehaps this is why I was born, to witness against the lie that it is a good.  I was a tall athletic child who saw peoples inclination to stereotype based on appearances and peoples lust for those they suspected of homosexuality. I was a college student who saw the effects on an innocent young woman who was drawn into a homosexual act after being plied with liquor and the devasting results to her years at the school.  I was a professional athlete who saw heterosexual young ladies pressured, coerced into homosexuality to get ahead.  I am an adult who has witnessed the outrageous behavior and dress displayed in “gay pride” parades. I am a mother who has dealt with young children who were homosexually molested by relatives and in turn molested others.  I am a sister-in-law of a homosexual who sees the beauty of the homosexual and the brokenness that lead to it.  I see how it has closed the hearts of many if not most of the family to the true teaching of the Catholic faith and has put man before God. I am a teacher who has seen the manipulation of peoples self-image and self-esteem, the predatory attacks on vulnerabilities to bring children into the fold of homosexuality and I have seen that children don’t even realize they are being groomed.  I have seen parents in their pride choose to defend the sin rather than help the child with counseling.  So no, I do not believe you are here to bring me to the light.  I believe it is the other way around.

We can quibble all we want about the issue, but the fact remains, homosexuals are going to take the battle in the secular arena. The real test of our Church’s (and other ecclessial bodies and non Christian faiths) is the extent to which they will also have to be forced to bend their doctrines to suit the “interests of the state.”
  Here’s where the interesting stuff really begins. In all provinces of Canada and many states and large communities in the US, “human rights commissions” have been formed. Some are merely watchdogs set up to air grieviances over matters concerning discrimination over living accommodations, access for the disabled, or to get an insulting store owner to refrain from his choice opinions. These alone can be a nuisance, especially for business men and to take time out of their busy schedules to settle or sort out.
  The real contentious battles begin when, say a person writes an article that offends Muslims, homosexuals, or the disabled. Usually a few letters back n’ forth to the op-ed page would let the parties hash it out and let the dust settle in past. No longer, especially in Canada. Worse yet. If anybody offends a person in Canada who belongs to a recognized religioius or ethnic minority happens to read something that was published even in an American magazine or on-line website, for instance like this, realistically, a bench warrant can be taken out against you by a Canadian Human Rights Commission (they and some American similar boards) actually have this right, but it can turn your your life upside down, even for just hurting somebody’s feelings ... even if the target of the article wasn’t the one doing the actual complaining. All it takes is the hurt feelings.
  Let’s say you’re taking your family to see Nova Scotia a year or so after you’ve written something that bent somebody’s nose out of joint. Unbeknownst to you (in past years they never even had to inform you papers were taken out)just as you’re getting ready to roll past the checkpoint after the border guard hands you back your family’s passports, all the bells n ’ whistles go off. (He or she has to wait, first.) To make a longer and more potentially frightening story shorter, welcome to the joy of facing justice in another country and the comforting fact our State Department may not be able to help get you released.
  Even if you’re released, you still have to go back because if you don’t, you’ll be extradited. Same goes for offending people living in the EU. I have no idea how you can find out if you’re on a “wanted list” over there and God alone knows what a mess that’ll be if you’re stuck in an overseas lockup, for something you believed was a totally innocent act or expression on your part.
  It is; but only in the US, and well ... that could change, too with these new marriage law changes if the laws aren’t changed to meet the times, meaning, not leaving people with a long estblished doctrinal reason or simply a personal opinion on the matter. We can do likewise, haul people to commissions and courts. Pray it never gets to where constant legal retaliation becomes the next phase. Because once people tire of using the legal process ... well, welcome to hell, for all parties. And all over what should be a joyous and blessed event.

Thanks Chuck for responding to my questions.  While you are “no fan of abortion” you believe it is acceptable for a woman to chose to have one based on her beliefs.  However, if another woman delivers her baby and wants to select adoptive parents based on her beliefs she is now denied that choice.  Catholic Adoption Agencies do not place children in homes with a single person, co-habitating couples or homosexuals based on our beliefs that children should be raised by a married couple. We believe that women and men each have different traits that are unique to them and as such of value to a child. We actually think that this is a fundamental right. People have always had the opportunity to go to the gov. agencies but now that some within the homosexual community have treatened to sue agencies that will not place children in their homes regretably Catholic agencies are closing.  Your agrument that they could stay open would mean that we would forced to go against our beliefs. Now that there will only be gov. adoption agencies there may well be an increase in abortions because woman will feel they no longer have anyway to participate in the selection of the adoptive parents. Her freedom to chose has been denied. Oh, and for the record even if there was a “gay gene” and it was predetermined that a baby was gay we would still love that child, enjoy ever moment of their life, be thrilled to cuddle them, play, laugh, do all the things parents do because we believe his/her life is sacred.

In Texas a photographer was sued by a gay couple because she declined to take pictures at their ceremony.  The couple was not harmed as they had ample time to hirer another photographer (which they did) and she did not ever indicate to them that she would like to accept the job.  So what was the problem?  Simple put they did not like her choice! Her religions freedom was to take a back seat to their desires. She probably did not have the income to deal with this lawsuit - she maybe out of business.

A Lutheran church in NJ was sued because they would not rent out their facility to another gay couple - again based on their religions beliefs.
Again this gay couple sued and now the church does not rent out their facility.

A priest in Canada was arrested for giving a sermon in church on homosexaulity.  Again his religious freedom has been denied.

So Chuck currently the desires of homosexuals trump religious beliefs but I would remind you that when religious freedoms are abandoned personal freedoms are lost. Today you are enjoying some public support and the support of gov.  but ask your friend from China if he had as much freedom in Chins as he now enjoys in the USA?  The reason many people come to America is for our freedoms.  The Christian-Judeo culture in this country ensures everyones freedoms.

Cynthia - Thank you for your comments.  I believe what we are seeing here and what you are describing is a mixing of public and private sector issues.  I will try to address each one.

With regard to Catholic Adoption Agencies:  I assume they fall under Catholic Charities, Inc. (CCI).  Many local governments farm out social services to private concerns such as CCI which is a separate business entity from the RCC.  CCI is paid well for its services and presumably it and other companies bid for the opportunity to provide these services to the local government.  No doubt, this is a profit making endeavor for the RCC and I find no problem with that.  Everyone has to pay the gas bill.  However, as a separate entity and a corporation, and one that is servicing ALL the community and acting as an agent for a government entity, they are required to follow the local laws regarding discrimination and adoption laws.  CCI in DC won a contract to provide many social services to the city for around $22M/year, to the best of my recollection.  When same-sex marriage (SSM) was passed in the city and restrictions against same-sex couples adopting children were lifted, it then falls on the company that won the bid to provide these services.  Now, I fully understand CCI does not agree with these policies.  If CCI does not wish to comply with this law, then they have a right to pull out of the adoption business for the city.  I am sure the city will find another company to take over these services.  The choice to back out of providing these services is the choice of CCI.  It’s that simple.  CCI is a business and a corporation and is acting as an agent for the government and must comply with the local laws.  If it chooses not to, it has the right to setup shop elsewhere and act as a private adoption service.  Now, with regard to more abortions and such as a result of CCI closing its doors, why doesn’t CCI open as a private adoption service and provide that service, with its restrictions, to the public sector who are of a like mind? 

With regard to the Texas photographer, I cannot speak to the details because I do not know the local laws.  But, presumably, the photographer is a local business and is open to the public.  I think the photographer is wrong.  I also think the gay couple should forgive the attitude and move on.  It is not worth the trouble.  But, I have to admit that if a business is open to serve the public, they should be serving all of the public.  Think for a moment of restaurants, hotels, apartment rentals, car repair shops, and other similar service-oriented business.  Would it be fair to deny access to these businesses because a person is black, Asian, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, handicapped, or obese?  Discrimination is just that - discrimination.

The Lutheran church issue is very similar - if you are going to step outside your protected church status and start dealing with the public by renting your facility in a commercial manner, then you need to comply with the local anti-discrimination laws.  That is just the way it is.

With regard to the priest in Canada.  This is interesting because Canada does not have a separation of church and state as we do.  My partner of 13 years is from Toronto and he spoke of getting a bible handed to him in public school.  Of course, being from the States I was fairly flabbergasted at this.  I have no idea what particular version of the bible was handed out.  They also get religious holidays off such as Good Friday and Easter Monday.  These are actual “Bank Holidays” and government office are closed.  So, because there is an intermix of church and state, I cannot give you an explanation as to how or why this happened.  I suspect because church and state is co-mingled, people in the church must follow the secular laws?  Just a guess.  Canada sort of follows the English model.

With regard to my friend from China, I asked him specifically (as he, too, is gay and has an American partner of some 10 years now) about how the secular government felt about gay marriage.  Recently, in the news, there was a publicity stunt for gay marriage held in some public square.  There was no concern by the authorities.  He believes the government really could not care less about gay marriage or the emergence of gay people from the closet (very apparent of late).  He tells me the only concern by the government is with any actions or behaviors that would disrupt the government.  And, apparently, there is nothing gay that seems to much matter.  This is not surprising.  The only places where the homosexuality seems to be an issue is with those areas with very strict religious authority such as Iran being a classic case.  Recently, two 18 year old young men who apparently loved each other were hanged in public for their “crimes against Islam.”  Friendly crowd.  Actually, when I was a young man about 21, I worked in Tehran, Iran, as a computer consultant, for 2-1/2 years until the Shah was overthrown and Khomeini took power.  Up until that time, Tehran had a very vibrant and mostly open gay community, especially considering it was 1976.  It wasn’t until the religious crowd came in that everything went to hell in hand-basket.  I have no idea what happened to my Iranian friends.  Many were able to escape to the West.  Others were not so fortunate.

I still will stick with the idea that we need to keep religion and government as far apart as possible.  Members of the RCC are fully entitled to their beliefs and positions.  However, when dealing with the secular world, you cannot have it both ways.  The secular world and government exists to serve all people not just those with certain religious restrictions.

Pam:  Re:  your comment of 9:26.  I can see, after all that, why you are so bitter on this issue.  Let me say that what I have found in my life is that people who are raised in restrictive religious and oppressive environments where they must comply with all these edicts, seem to be the ones with the most problems.  Rarely do I run into anyone who was raised in an open and free-thinking environment who is uptight and frustrated.  I read your writings and I can envision you being tensed-up, hand-wringing, and worried.  Please do not take offense to that but I would suggest a “chill out” session.

Let me tell you what is going to happen in the gay community as I have been a part of it for 56 years now.

I have watched older gay men get married to women because they had to, their religion told them to, and they needed have a cover.  They were frustrated, usually drank a lot, and often beat their wives and children.  Today, I rarely see or hear of this unless they were raised in a strict religious background such as the RCC and Evangelical Christianity. 

I have watched young gay men become priests because it’s the best place to hide.  Go there and you cannot get married.  Perhaps, they can find a “cure” for their “illness.”  Not seeing a lot of that, today.  In fact, I hear there is a shortage of new priest applicants.

Gay bars used to be dark, low-lighted, and absolutely no cameras.  Police used to raid them.  You could lose your job.  A couple I read about who worked for the government back in the 1960’s lived in the suburbs.  Somehow, they were discovered and fired from their jobs.  They committed suicide together in the back seat of their car in their suburban garage.  You don’t hear any of that any more.  And, except for young people who like to go “clubbing,” there are not that many gay bars left.  All are well-lit and open places.  There just is no longer a need for such places as we have become very “mainstream.”  Go the the suburbs and you’ll find many gay couples of many, many years.  I have attended my fair share of 30 and 40 year anniversaries. I’m on 13 myself.

I guess my point here is that the more and more open and accepting is society, the less turmoil and strife I see.  And, this applies to about any group.  You must be aware that cities and local governments actually run gay tourism ads.  You have a group of mostly upscale, educated, non-violent people with a fair amount of disposable income.  You look at the former city slum areas - many of these have been completely rebuilt and are examples for the city.  Gays come in, buy up the place, fix everything, and the place has become “gentrified.”  Good deal.

I do not see the doom and gloom you so predict.  I trust you did not watch the Tony’s last night?  You should have.  Neil Patrick Harris hosted the show.  Have you seen his partner and their twin boys?  What a great couple and role models for other young gay kids coming along.  Perhaps, if we could have more positive examples such as this, with a lot less religious restrictions, we all would be far better off.

I know you never will agree.  For me, for my family, this all works.  I hope you are as happy as we are.  And, no, we don’t worry about the afterlife.  With 90% of the RCC laity practicing birth control, a mortal sin, as I understand it, I am sure we will have lots of company in the afterlife.

One freedom after another . . .

Steven, How can you right what you say about Canada and then first of all call the truth, “quibbling” and second of all not do everything within your power to make sure this NEVER happens in the United States?  Who is your God?  NOTHING is impossible to Him if it is in accord with His will and the Catholic stance on this IS in accord with His will unless we are putting the desolating abomination on the throne of Peter and Jesus is returning in our lifetime!

Cynthia, I believe the Alliance Defense Fund or Thomas Moore Law Center represented the Texas photographer.  They lost the initial round and are appealing.  The lower court ruled she discriminated.  We live in the time of “The Emperor’s New Clothes” where people are afraid to state the obvious and common sense has all but disappeared. It’s a time when big money is using bully tactics to get its way.

ChuckGG, You are right we are never going to agree as long as you continue to feel as you do.  Cynthia points out all the ways you and homosexuals do harm Catholics and Christians and families with gay activist tactics.  Now if you truly love your partner, refrain from the sex because the bottom line is it is the sex that makes it a homosexual relationship.  Otherwise it is a great friendship.  I have no angst over the issue I have knowledge oof the sin and an obligtion to fight the lies and distortions. As you acknowledge the existence of a soul I would refer you to all the quotes you don’t care about that warn that your lifestyle is much more dangerous to your soul than my speaking out to warn you is to mine.  May God in His infinite mercy fill you with His grace and a profound conversion.

Pam:  “Now if you truly love your partner, refrain from the sex because the bottom line is it is the sex that makes it a homosexual relationship.”  You really cannot be serious?  I read some of your comments and they just seem so way out there.

“As you acknowledge the existence of a soul…”  More a figure of speech.  Call it your inner-peace but not the “soul” to which the church refers.

“May God in His infinite mercy fill you with His grace and a profound conversion.”  Conversion?  I would not hold my breath on that one.

Pam, it basically is this:  You believe all this stuff.  I do not.  It cannot get any simpler than that.

BTW, keep an eye on the News this week.  NY may be voting on same-sex marriage.  Of course, NOM is in the middle of it with ads declared false by the independent verification group, Politifact.com.  Hardly surprising.  The Southern Poverty Law Center declared them a “hate group,” right up there with the KKK.

Now, have we beaten this horse dead enough?

@Pam: When I used the word “quibbling” I had no intentions of downplaying the significance of the Church’s teachings on homosexual marriage. That was the last thing on my mind. I was surprised that the majority of posts were ignoring the simple fact that the gays do have a very strong card to play, their “ace” in the deck, so to speak insofar as this issue is being thrashed about in the ballot petitions, state legislatures/courts, Federal Courts and what we can eventually count on, a case ultimately working its way to the Supreme Court.
  I’ll share that “ace” again: “No taxation without representation.” Yes, homosexuals have the rights to vote, and are duly represented in our respectives national, state and territorial legislatures. But ... they might have a very convincing argument when they say that the government has no business taxing people they won’t allow even the basic minimal access to enjoy the same rights as others to services and legal statuses accorded to others based on biological factors, such as gender, sexual orientation or race. This is what I’m saying the proponents of same sex marriage can use in our legal system which respects no religious body, nor should it.
  If the ending clause of my last statement upsets you or anybody else; my apologies. However, anti-Catholic bigotry was once written into our earlier (states’) laws. And when the states’ respective version of England’s “penal laws” were discontinued, the Know Nothings and bigots got away with enacting their own private acts of violence and legal discrimination, for decades, if not for a full century afterwards, especially in Massachusetts where “No Irish or dogs need enter or apply” signs appeared throughout the Commonwealth.
Do you want us to become like the Know-Nothings, the bigoted, but ever propah n’ genteel bigots of the Protestant ascendancy of the late 18th through early 20th Centuries ... just to stop “gay marriage” or same-sex marriage? Well, there’ll be an unnecessarily high price to pay for causing that kind of backlash to come. Moreover, who really knows how harsh and deep it’ll be? And while you seem willing to brave whatever may come, why should you want to impose this on others who live in nation that is officially secular, and a nation of laws, not of men and or their particular clerics getting the first and final words in on controversial matters.
  If that’s what you want…there are already places called Saudi Arabia and Iran. “Boy, do those guys over there know how to put an end to such nonsense.” Yes, they don’t mind the clerics having the final say in matters of morals and the kind of justice that’ll be meted out to them, either. The Saudis have a “chop chop” square in Riyadh, and the Iranians use expanding contractors’ cranes for hanging homosexuals, and perhaps anybody foolhardy enough to even suggest that homosexuals have full legal rights to civil unions, much less marriage. If they’re lucky and not caught, they somehow manage to live one day to the next.
  We have “the truth” as you say, and St. Paul was pretty explicit in the Bible about homosexual conduct and of course about the “wages of sin” being “death.” But we don’t live in a theocracy. (Nor should we allow ourselves to be cowed in to not being able to freely express our views and doctrines in pulpits in our churches. That’s ridiculous. If the proponents of gay right equality are afraid of a priest or pastor saying we should march out of Mass or Sunday Services and carry out Kristallnacht style pogroms against homosexuals or engage in other acts of clear and unwarranted discrimination, not to mention bodily and psychological harm to them ... that’s another matter. But to quote from Romans and some Papal documents to reiterate Church teachings, alongside admonitions against taking un-Christian act against homosexuals…well, we both know that’s another beast. And it’s a beast we can not only tame, but must tame not only because it’s right in God’s eyes that we not behave uncharitably and in unloving, uncharitable and improper ways, but it will also do more to solidify the moral high ground the Church is trying to maintain in this very emotionally-charged issue.
  If you want to know Who my God is, I’ll gladly tell you. It’s the same one you worship. It’s also the same one Martin Luther King and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Dorothy Day and Mother Teresa worshipped.
  My apologies if you and others were led to believe I was trying to downplay the significance of the Church’s teachings and Scripture by using the word quibbling. My intent was then, and now, to face the strong reality that the Church and her allies in this battle might not win. Yes, our God is an Almighty God, but sometimes He doesn’t let us win all our battles and on time. King was shot; Bonhoeffer was hung on Hitler’s personal orders three weeks before he shot himself in Berlin. Mother Teresa never lived to see abortion spiked in the US, but she sure rattled the Clintons, and we still remain a horribly and selfishly materialistic nation notwithstanding Day’s witness and service to the poor.
  God will have the final say; but it’s not for any of us to try and push His hands or play politics with His judgment. That’s his call, not ours. In the meantime, while it’s necessary to fight the good fight in the legislatures and courts; it also behooves us to be vigilant when it comes to making sure that everybody’s legal righs already stated in the Bill of Rights, and elsewhere, are not abridged upon; and I mean everybody’s. We are all God’s children and fellow citizens.
  Hope my reply clarifies things.

Part of what is was trying to get accross was that some in the gay community are not willing to let Christian Churchs or their believers practice their beliefs.  If the Catholic Church even as a private adoption agency could not allow a homosexual couple to adopt they will be sued, the photographer is an individul it was not a corporation, the Lutheran church is not a public funded organization.  Yet in ea. of these cases the homosexuals made it imposible for them to practice their religion.

Stephen, Sorry but there is no other way to take the word “quibbling”.  The word is meant to characterize the type of conversation in a negative way.  As to the argument about taxation without representation, that has no foundation.  You are comparing apples and oranges.  The union of homosexuals is a different animal than the union of two people of the opposite sex.  One is naturally incompatible and cannot bear children without a third party and the other is naturally compatible and can bear children and has been considered the foundation of society for thousands of years.  Also as to quoting Romans and Vatican papers, I’m not sure what you were saying.  It is the height of charity to share the Truth of the Bible, especially without editorializing but simply quoting the Truth as it has been revealed.  There is nothing uncharitable about stating the Truth although there are many who would say they were offended if they thought saying so could keep the truth from being heard. Thankfully, Christianity is NOT political correctness.  Christ Himself was very blunt at times.  It is not Unchristian in the least.  Certainly we agree we should act out of love and respect but that does not mean we stop short of revealing the truth. 
The First Amendment states the Government shall make no law regarding the establishment of a religion or prevent the free exercise thereof.  That was never interpreted as meaning we are a secular society until the last twenty or thirty years when judicial activists decided they had a better idea.  We have always been a nation under God so although we may not be an actual Theocracy, we are a government that believes in God.  Further one could very strongly argue that the push to force Americans to recognize same sex unions was an infringement of First Amendment rights because as we have seen it has already caused Catholic Charities to stop doing adoptions or face charges of discrimination as it has affected individuals and employers like we see in the Photographer from Arizona who declined to take photos for a homosexual wedding.  And finally, although of course all things are dependent on God’s will, we are told to “ask, believing that you have received” and it will be given to us, so your caution or hedging comes across as lukewarmness or a lack of faith.  True, it may not be God’s will, but if it isn’t you will know soon enough.  Your job is to ask believing.  It is ironic that you only see the Catholic speaking the truth as forcing God’s hand and not the government or secular society that would force Christians to accept homosexual unions.  It is not forcing God’s hand to follow His teaching.

What makes no sense is that Catholics who express their POV are ignorant, nasty people while gays who express theirs are brave and honorable.  Can I not have an opinion that gay marriage is wrong?  I guess not.  And gays wonder why Catholics are worried that are freedom is at risk.  Read the comments here from the pro-gay marriage crowd.  It’s easy to tell they HATE us for who we are.  I am not rigid and mean.  I love puppies and rainbows too.

ChuckGG,  Yes I was serious. You probably can’t see how you are flip-flopping, but first you say gay relationships are not all about the sex and then you can’t fathom the relationship without it.  Even married couples practice continence at times.  I have no idea who or what NOM is. If people get to vote on it, it should be defeated.  Massachusetts wouldn’t give us a vote.

ChuckGG, Just saw your post about how life is better for gays. We do disagree.  You see yourself as liberated and I see you chained to the flesh and kept there by a corporate America that looks at you as an amoral cash cow with no concern for your soul.  You think things are better and I see the damage done to families and children by the tactics of the homosexual agenda and I see the moral decline of our nation.  You are happy in your atheism and put down religion as repressive.  I see the true freedom that comes from being a child of God and marvel at His grace and love for us. I am not a handwringer. My eyes were opened and I see. You are not interested in knowing Your God yet so He will not force Himself upon you.

Gosh, a tough crowd… Let’s see if I can respond…

Pam:  I hardly think I am flip-flopping.  You are the one that repeatedly implied a gay relationship was only sex.  You never once mentioned love.  I tried to point out to you that, just as in a straight relationship, there is love and making love.  NOM is the National Organization for Marriage, an anti-gay marriage group run by a couple of Catholics, currently involved in a number of court cases for not complying with election laws, and heavily funded by the RCC.  I think you would appreciate their viewpoint.  You can Google them.  The Southern Poverty Law Center classifies them as a hate group based upon not their views but their actions.

Pam:  On your 11:34pm posting - Yes, I do see my family and friends as very liberated and very much at peace.  I keep hearing about this homosexual agenda but I must have missed the memo on that one.  I do not see the “decline of the nation” as you call it.  Your “decline” is my “freedom for all.”  I trust you are not blaming our 3% of the population on your 50%+ divorce rate, 25% drop-out rate, and inner-city crime?  Again, I hope I am not “putting down” religion.  I keep reiterating this - I do not care how your or any other religion choose to practice their particular religion.  Where I draw the line is organized religion attempting to change and restrict secular laws that have no effect on them, to match their religious vision of the world.  And, same-sex marriage will have no effect on you, unless you continue to fret about it.  Much like DADT, the idea of keeping gays out of the military is ridiculous.  The news flash is that they are already there and serving their country.  Due to that idiotic law, the military has lost thousands of good soldiers and many of whom were skilled translators and experts in their fields.  No, Pam, I am very content.  I hope you are, as well.

Cynthia:  “Part of what is was trying to get accross was that some in the gay community are not willing to let Christian Churchs or their believers practice their beliefs.  If the Catholic Church even as a private adoption agency could not allow a homosexual couple to adopt they will be sued, the photographer is an individul it was not a corporation, the Lutheran church is not a public funded organization.  Yet in ea. of these cases the homosexuals made it imposible for them to practice their religion.”

Perhaps, some gays do protest a Catholic Adoption Agency but I would make certain this, in fact, is a private adoption agency and not one that is contracted to provide services for some local government.  I cannot see why anyone would pick a fight with a private agency when other non-restrictive agencies presumably exist.  I guess I would need to look at the specific instance to learn the details.

As far as the photographer goes, again, I do not know the specifics here but I have less of a problem with an individual refusing service despite them claiming to be in business for the public than I would for a corporation which is not supposed to discriminate.

As far as the Lutheran Church goes, I do not believe they need to be publicly funded to be subject to anti-discrimination laws.  Once they advertise and hang out a shingle that they are renting out their facility as a business endeavor, I think the law kicks in.

I mentioned before the example of the same facility restricting access to blacks, Jews, Catholics, and the obese.  You did not comment on that.  Is it okay for the Lutheran church to refuse to rent their hall to Catholics?  Is it okay for a hotel and a restaurant to say they won’t serve blacks or Hispanics?  Again, if the church wants to venture into the commercial world they must follow the rules just like everyone else.

The exception to this (well, it isn’t really an exception) are private clubs such as Country Clubs.  As long as they have an exclusive, private club, they can turn away anyone they wish.  I think the Catch-22 is if they have a public liquor license.  Once you have liquor license to serve the public, then you must serve all the public.

If it were me, I would not want to use the photographer or the Lutheran Hall if I were unwelcome.  I would take my money and go elsewhere.  Their loss, not mine.

Rick:  “What makes no sense is that Catholics who express their POV are ignorant, nasty people while gays who express theirs are brave and honorable.  Can I not have an opinion that gay marriage is wrong?  I guess not.  And gays wonder why Catholics are worried that are freedom is at risk.  Read the comments here from the pro-gay marriage crowd.  It’s easy to tell they HATE us for who we are.  I am not rigid and mean.  I love puppies and rainbows too.”

Rick - I think the problem here is where we both think the line is drawn.  We disagree on where that line is.  I truly do not mind any Catholic expressing their view on any subject.  They are entitled to do so.  Where I have a real problem is when the RCC, as an institution, donates millions of dollars to overturn secular laws that were enacted by the Legislature and signed into law by the Governor (as was the case in Maine recently).  The RCC is not the moral standard-bearer for the rest of us.  And, then, to not admit they are doing all this is just appalling.  Their television ads are inaccurate according to an independent watchdog group (Politifact.com) and NOM, probably the largest perpetrator of all this was labeled by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a hate group, right up there with the KKK, not because of their VIEWS but because of their ACTIONS.  The RCC and the laity can have all the views they want and express those views, but at least stand up, be honest and accurate about it, and identify yourselves, and don’t hide behind a Roman collar.  Where I come from we call that cowardly and not the behavior expected from a gentleman.

And, all the love stuff?  “Hate the sin but love the sinner.”  (Of course, we do not believe we are “sinning.”)  While all this love would be appreciated if it were sincere, it comes across as a bit condescending, as if you and your doctrine know what is best for us non-parishioners as we could not possibly grasp the great wisdom and knowledge that only a true Catholic possesses.  It is a tad presumptuous.

What I continue to return to is the statement that for the purposes of legal, secular marriage (as was mentioned/implied by Steven, I think), the churches just do not have a dog in this fight.  They continue to burn bridges behind them and, right now, the RCC needs all the “meat in the seats” it can get.  I do not check these numbers or really am concerned about it one way or the other, but from what I have heard, the majority of the laity who attend services are getting up there in years.  Are the young kids showing up?  The church had better adapt or even more of them will shut down.  Again, not really my problem or concern; just an observation.

Well, that’s the way I see it.

Has the format of everyone else’s “post a comment” changed?  Just wondering. Anyway, to ChuckGG:  I would warn you that you are choosing your heaven on earth Chuck - a measly seventy or so years.  You are making a poor trade.  You say you have been homosexually active for over fifty years but only committed to one person for thirteen.  That supports the perception that homosexual relations are more about the sex.  But even putting that aside you have alot of nerve saying the RCC puts in so much money to fight against gay marriage. Protecting our nation under God is their fight as much as anyone elses. How much arm twisting and manipulation is Barney Frank doing and how much money are all the gay organizations putting in and how much influence peddling and money is being thrown at this by gay celebrities and their friends?  And if you want to talk about having dogs, you really do not have a dog on this site so you don’t belong here and yet you are!  Absolutely I believe the minority is using their power and money to corrupt our society. And I believe there are coalitions working together to obtain their different agendas.  Isn’t that how it works?  Obama threw BILLIONS of dollars at Massachusetts education to buy votes and indoctrinate children.  As to the Phoenix case, the photographer was called by a couple who called many photographers and chose the one who WOuLD NOT do the wedding because of her religious beliefs soley because of her refusal which was very polite and courteous.  This is what your brother and sister homosexuals are doing to many who openly disagree with the homosexual agenda - individuals and businesses alike. They are harrassing and baiting. They may consider themselves political activists but they are really criminals of the RICO statute variety to me.(You describe yourself as a homosexual activists so drop the “What homosexual agenda?” baloney.  Your little think tanks have been working overtime as I’m sure you know.)  It is time to put you in the troll category sir. If you only have this seventy years may God bless them abundantly, but if He is the Hound of Heaven I know Him to be, may you be blessed to know Him and love Him before you die and live to truly regret any sins you have committed against our Great God and your brothers and sister in Christ.

God bless you, Bishop Tobin!  Please keep fighting the good fight.  Defending our faith is the last great battle between good and evil.  To be a faithful Catholic today, we must be in the world, not of it, as Jesus warned his own disciples.  St. Michael, defend us in this battle!

In this time of twisted logic Thank You God for giving us a courageous and good leader like his Excellency Bishop Tobin.

As a prescient George Orwell said:

“In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act”

The reason you can’ t have an opinino that Gay marriage is wrong is because you can’ t have an opinion as to who it is wrong to love. Or it is wrong to be blue eyed, or it is wrong for a black and a white to marry.
thes are Unalienable rights that means they are given by the Universe. Love is love nobody every had an opinion about a heterosexual marriage.

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