VICTORIA, B.C. — When Father Peter Wilkinson returned to his hometown of Victoria, B.C., 42 years ago, with five years of service in the Anglican Church in England under his belt, he was deemed too “Catholic” by the local bishop and never got an Anglican parish of his own.
But as an Anglican Catholic member of a worldwide communion of dissenters from the direction of Anglicanism, he rose swiftly to bishop and then to metropolitan for Canada — before giving that all up earlier this year to be received as a simple layman into the Catholic Church.
On Dec. 8, the feast of the Immaculate Conception, and at the ripe age of 72, he was ordained a Catholic priest and immediately assumed his duties as priest and pastor of St. Columba of Iona Church. Father Wilkinson’s flock comprises 22 former Anglican Catholics, who, with him, were received into the Church early this year and at the same time into the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter.
The ordinariate, which is headquartered in Houston, was created on Jan. 1 to provide a North American structure for Anglicans coming into the Church who wish to retain distinctive elements of their theological, spiritual and liturgical patrimony as Anglicans.
Father Wilkinson’s ordination was the third in Canada for a former Anglican cleric who has entered the Church through the ordinariate, and it coincided with a key announcement for these new Catholics and for other Canadian Anglicans who are considering following in their footsteps.
On Dec. 7, Msgr. Jeffrey Steenson, the leader of the ordinariate, jointly announced with Cardinal Thomas Collins of Toronto that the Holy See had approved the establishment of a new deanery for groups of Anglicans and Anglican clergy in Canada who have come into the Church.
In a statement, Msgr. Steenson announced he had appointed Father Lee Kenyon, administrator of the first ordinariate congregation in Canada at St. John the Evangelist Church in Calgary, Alberta, as dean of the new Deanery of St. John the Baptist.
Cardinal Collins, who is the ecclesiastical delegate for the ordinariate in Canada, and Msgr. Steenson jointly petitioned the Holy See to create the new deanery after receiving unanimous backing for the proposal from the Canadian bishops in September.
It’s Not About Me
“I’m loving it,” Father Wilkinson told the Register, when asked about his membership in the Church. “I haven’t regretted this for a moment.”
As for his demotion in ecclesial rank, he laughingly commented, “It isn’t about me. I simply want to be a holy priest and serve out my remaining years in that capacity.”
Anglican Catholics like Father Wilkinson are part of a spiritual revival that was initiated in the English Anglican Church, whose leaders included Blessed John Henry Newman before his conversion to Catholicism in 1845. It looked to the restoration of pre-Reformation liturgy, celebration of the full range of sacraments, devotion to Mary, communal religious life and, for some, ultimate reunion with Rome.
But Father Wilkinson believes that right from the time of the English Reformation (when King Henry VIII nationalized the Church of England in 1534 under the authority of the English crown), there was a movement within Anglicanism for reunion with Rome.
Many of today’s Anglican Catholics broke away from their national Anglican churches in the U.S., Canada and elsewhere when these churches voted to ordain women.
“It was the straw that broke the camel’s back,” explained Scott Vannan, a Victoria Anglican Catholic who joined the Catholic Church earlier this year along with Father Wilkinson. Anglicans who were praying and working for reunion with Rome saw women’s ordination as an insuperable obstacle, given Rome’s adamant rejection of women priests, not to mention the similar stance of the Orthodox Church.
“But there were many other doctrinal issues which pointed to the question of authority,” said Vannan. “Anglicanism has never had a magisterium, but it did believe that it shared a common deposit of faith which nobody was authorized to change. Now they do change it.”
Some of the disaffected Anglicans left for Catholicism, the Orthodox Church or Lutheran churches as individuals, but many left their national Anglican churches within whole parishes. These then coalesced into two distinct, and sometimes competing, traditional Anglican communions in North America.
The one Father Wilkinson and Vannan joined was the Anglican-Catholic Church of Canada, which became part of the 240,000-strong worldwide Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC), as did the like-minded Anglican Church in America.
Father Wilkinson became the pastor of Victoria’s traditional Anglicans, then the western Canadian bishop and finally the metropolitan of a scattering of 38 parishes comprising 1,500 individuals across Canada.
In 2007, Father Wilkinson and two other TAC bishops proposed to Pope Benedict XVI a package deal: bring in the Anglican Catholics en masse, but with provisions for the retention of existing parishes, those elements of the Anglican liturgy compatible with Catholicism and the married priesthood.
Benedict’s Inspiration
Pope Benedict was as enthusiastic as the TAC leaders had hoped.
“Some of our bishops had been meeting with him personally since the 1990s,” said Father Wilkinson. “They really liked him. And I had corresponded with him myself — in fact, I wrote him a fan letter. I even had an appointment to meet him, but it was the very week Pope John Paul II died, and he couldn’t see me.”
Father Wilkinson’s own personal road to Rome was partly paved by Pope Benedict’s 1986 book Seek That Which Is Above, which “spoke in a reasoned way, but also from the heart in a way that was fresh. It revealed the whole man. I hadn’t found that in other Catholic books.”
He said that the Pope shares the Anglican-Catholic belief “that the saints and beauty are the Church’s two great converting forces.” This is why the Pope permitted the Anglican Catholics to keep their traditions centered on the Book of Common Prayer.
“It is in our bones,” said Father Wilkinson of the 463-year-old prayer book. “It is written in beautiful, sacral English, intentionally using a higher register of language.”
After the Pope issued his invitation to Anglican converts in November 2009 through his apostolic constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus, many Anglican Catholics turned out to be less enthusiastic than the leadership for communion with Rome. Of 38 parishes Canada-wide, only three have entered into full communion, with 150 members.
The parish Father Wilkinson started in Victoria has split twice over such issues as the authority of the Pope and the loss of local autonomy. In the second split, it lost its pastor. A similar reduction in expectations has occurred in the United States.
But this is not necessarily a bad thing, said Vannan. “Before, the tension was always there under the surface. Now, we are completely united. There is a great sense of peace.”
Warm Welcome
On the other hand, some Catholics have had difficulty grasping the Anglican-Catholic attachment to its liturgy and wondered why Father Wilkinson’s group could not simply have converted as individuals. But most have been “very welcoming,” said Father Wilkinson. He praised Victoria Bishop Richard Gagnon and Father John Laszczyk, the rector at St. Andrew’s Cathedral in Victoria, for their support.
“Everybody has been wonderful,” said Father Wilkinson. As for Father Laszczyk, who stood in as pastor for the past few months and is a strong proponent of beauty in liturgy, he described his experience with the Anglican Catholics as “profound.”
The small parish of 22 people now has its own home in a former Anglican church. And instead of Father Laszczyk celebrating the Mass in a deep baritone, they will again have Father Peter Wilkinson’s tenor chanting.
Looking ahead a few days before Father Wilkinson’s ordination, Vannan commented, “It’s a wonderful time for us. I am looking forward to his next Good Friday sermon on the Crucifixion. It is the same every year, and each time I understand a little more of it.”
Register correspondent Steve Weatherbe writes from Victoria, British Columbia.
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Hopefully the same spirit will allow for the ordination of married men as priests. That would be a “renewal”.
Coming home to the Catholic Church was the best thing THIS former Episcopalian/Anglican ever did. My only regret is that I didn’t do it a lot sooner.
Becoming a Priest involves choices such as being celebate. It’s a big part of being a Priest and a woman religious as they give themselves full. To Christ and his Church.
As a married man I cannot conceive of how it is possible to be really a priest and parent and give 100 percent to both things. A married priesthood in the Latin Rite would be a lessening of the ability of the priest to serve the community, and this is to say nothing of the giant complications of a wife and family. Imagine the lunacy if a priest gets an annulment of his marriage, or all the other nut-job things that go on in this culture. We need healthy celebate men, who have no gender identiy or attraction issues to provide manly leadership who are unencombered by a wife and children. As a married man I absolutely support a celebate priesthood of men, real men, not the wishy washy overly sensitive types. Real men can get up and say the whole truth and not water it down. Real men can make the sacrifice for God. And frankly, marriage is over-rated as some kind of necessity to “understand” people, women, sex, or children. Celebate men have the needed distance from women, sex, and non-sense, to offer time for clear reflection on life, unencombered by the duties to a wife or children. In the Anglican situation one must respect prior arrangements and ways that deviate from the Latin norm out of charity and respect for displaced brethren seeking reunion in the true church. This reflects Peter being a true shepherd and his judgement to heal the body of Christ. I vote for keeping the priesthood celebate for the rest of us - absolutely.
Gene - If you surveyed the married men who have been ordained as priests they would overwhelmingly support a continuation of the celibate priesthood. Fr Longenecker is an example and he has written about the issue extensively.
Welcome to all our Anglican Catholic brothers and sisters! May God continue to bless you on your journey of faith. You are a blessing to the Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ.
And its about time the Roman Catholic Church sent some american liberals packing to the liberal anglicans instead of messing up the globe thinking they own the Roman Catholic Church..
or in the case of Washington State, persons who said they are Catholic on HR 74 deserve to go where it may be more appropriate for them.
we welcome you all
WONDERFUL…...
I think that they can come into the church married, but if the wife dies, they cannot re-marry but must remain celibate as Roman priests are. Am I right?
All of this is joyful news fitting for Advent. For those who are interested check out the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham to see the great strides our Brothers and Sisters are making in the U.K.
Fr. Longenecker is pastor of my Church, Our Lady of the Rosary. He fullfills all the functions that all Catholic priests fulllfill wife or not. He gets to keep his wife. The only thing that surprised me was his taste for St. Benedict who forced his brother’s wife into a nunnery so his brother could join him in the monastery. If father tried to do that to his wife against her will I would take her side. Then the fur would really be flying at OLR.
Either you have married priests or you don’t. At this point I don’t think I care too much anyway. But I see it as a slap in the face to our priests who have sacrificed the beauty of marriage for the Church to suddenly have colleagues who aren’t required to do the same.
They were always told that their celibacy was a gift from God and it was central to their ministry. Now the Church is effectively saying, “just kidding”
Most Anglicans remain evangelical or Reformed and only a minority are from the Catholic wing of the Communion, thus providing a “no win” choice. Stay with a dying Communion or “swim the Tiber” to a Church which holds unique doctrines unacceptable to them.
I recently met a priest who had his marriage annulled and has a son. And it is VERY difficult for him but he is a wonderful traditional priest! Celibacy appears to be the best choice.
On the flip side, I am VERY saddened by the progressive priests. Even though we have too few priests, we would be better off if some of these would leave the Catholic Church to become Protestant rather then mislead the less Catechized among us. I pray for those Catholic priests that brag about not wearing the clerical collar, ignoring traditional Catholic teachings, and believing that it is OK to add their personal enhancements to the mass!
May GOD save us!
On the other hand “some” ....
Oh, brother.
The phrase is often used in secular media to disparage everything that is good.
Welcome home Father Peter Wilkinson! And welcome home to all who are now in the diocese of the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter.
I pray that one day my fiance will come home to the Catholic Church… please pray for him, his name is Derrick.
We’ll see how excited Catholics are when one of these guys with his family move into the rectory and can’t be at the parishioners beck and call. AND when the collection plate comes around looking for money to support an entire family rather than just one priest
“I think that they can come into the church married, but if the wife dies, they cannot re-marry but must remain celibate as Roman priests are. Am I right?”
That is correct Corinne. Just as when a Deacon is ordained, if he is married he keeps his wife, but should she die, he can not re-marry.
This is beautiful story, I am very happy for Father Peter Wilkinson!
“I think that they can come into the church married, but if the wife dies, they cannot re-marry but must remain celibate as Roman priests are. Am I right?”
Corinne, yes that is correct. When a man is ordained a Deacon if he isn’t married, he can’t marry; and if he is married and his wife dies, he can’t re-marry.
All the negative comments about married pastors from Anglican (and other faiths) who are coming into the Catholic Church are really disheartening. It is important to remember there aren’t just two vocations (religious or married), but there are as many vocations as there are people alive.
Henry VIII sure caused so much turmoil and disunity among Christians. So, welcome to your new home dear brothers & sisters in Christ. May we all grow stronger in our love of God and each other.
Those who are/were Anglicans have experienced Religious Liberalism in most of its Evility. They may be able to help reconstitute the Church after the upcoming inevitable schism. Religious Liberals do not WANT to ‘just go where they would be more welcome’, they want the money power prestige official acceptance and buildings of the RCC so that ‘Humankind’ will progress in a manner that THEY FEEL is most logical and inevitable. They will take control—with the help of the civil government, new world order or not—in the coming years probably few years.
The church will then be back in the catacombs and the fact that some of those in the catacombs had ancestors who help Elizabeth Tudor persecute Catholics… well Jesus not only died for all but as GOD HE has an infinite sense of humor.
Beautiful story! You are welcome!!
@Andrew: [“We’ll see how excited Catholics are when one of these guys with his family move into the rectory and can’t be at the parishioners beck and call. AND when the collection plate comes around looking for money to support an entire family rather than just one priest.”] Andrew, what decade are you living in —the Bing Crosby era? We already have most every parish priest NOT available at your “beckon call.” My Pastor wouldn’t even come to the cemetery when my mother was interned. I don’t know about your diocese, but when I review the yearly financial statements from the parish along with neighboring parishes, the staffing salaries seem more than adequate to support a married priest with family.
@Casting Crowns - I hope you’re just being sarcastic about the wages parish staff receive? If not, you’ve touched on a seriously sore nerve! My wife is a full-time Parish Youth Minister and the job actually (no exaggeration) costs me money. I would give my right arm for her to quit, but she’s too committed.
Unless you’ve been directly exposed to it, you have no clue as to how many hours these people work and how little they are paid AND how little respect they get from Priests and parishioners. At least my wife is in a position where the pastor knows she can quit at any time (I’ve made that clear to him), so she doesn’t have it as bad as her colleagues who are eeking out a living with two parents working and too afraid to speak up lest they lose their job.
I’ve done the math, and on an hourly basis she doesn’t even make minimum wage! People have no idea the number of nights and weekend hours these staffers put in. It is a disgrace. And actually I would love it if there were married priests with a family to support so they could understand the kinds of financial and familial stress these dedicated people are put under.
Please, will someone explain why, in his Pastoral Letters to Timothy and to Titus, St. Paul wrote that men in ordained ministry should be married with children, because, Paul reasoned, “...if a man cannot manage his own little family with dignity, how can he take care of the Church of God?”
@Andrew: Salary and hourly compensation are driven by “market” value. It’s no different in church ministry. Parish administrative staff earn far less than an Admin in the corporate world because the requirements are not the same. The production workload and penalties for failing to meet metric objectives and deadlines do not compare in the least with that in the corporate world. Unfortunately for you wife leading youth ministry (even if full time), most parishes do not truly place high value on the position so they are not going to pay high $ for it. Regardless of what they might say, you must accept the reality that youth ministry is not on par with other matters they deem more important. Sorry, but that is the reality. In my area (which is very well populated and has significant affluence), there are three Catholic parishes within 3 miles serving a large populace. The three pastors got together and decided only “one” youth minister could service all three parishes. Clearly, the thinking was to save money. I agree parish employees are dedicated and often put in long hours, but if you are seeking financial reward, lesser valued parish ministry positions will never be a means to that end. On the other hand, many parishes do, in fact, place high value on Music Directors and Liturgical Directors and they are paid very well—too well, IMO. But each Pastor decides what level of emphasis he desires. Most people in the pew would be shocked as their salaries. They are rewarded because the fruit of their ministry is “on parade” every Sunday and often to excess in the minds of many people. Church music and liturgical orchestration often becomes centered upon the Director when the glory should be on the Savior. Parish Finance Councils are well aware if people stop coming to your parish in favor of a neighboring parish which has better “music” and donuts after mass, the Sunday collection and attendance will decrease. And btw, when comparing youth ministry in Catholic parishes versus that of some local Evangelical churches in my area, Catholic parishes are funded pathetically—no doubt because the parish (again) does not place high value on the ministry. You’d be surprised at the number of Catholic youngsters attending non-religious events at Evangelical churches because they place a higher value on youth ministry. And check this out the next time you have a second collection at mass. One local Pastoral Associate brings in a cool 80K salary.
I’m in the business of designing compensation plans for large companies, so please don’t think you can lecture me in that regard. You say:
“Parish administrative staff earn far less than an Admin in the corporate world because the requirements are not the same. The production workload and penalties for failing to meet metric objectives and deadlines do not compare in the least with that in the corporate world.” With respect, that is patently absurd! The fact that your Youth Minister is serving 3 parishes means one of two things; those are small parishes with an older population, or, your Youth programs are awful.
I live in a very affluent area as well the parishes around us all have their own Youth Ministers if not 2. Our local mega-Church (some sort of Protestant deal) has 7 youth ministers full time. I am not at all surprised how many of your youth attend activities at your Evangelical churches. We don’t have that problem because we have high quality youth programs.
When you say that Youth Ministry is not on par with other priorities in our Church, you are sorely mistaken. This is what Benedict talks about constantly and In a pre-capital campaign survey in our diocese last year, concern about Youth Formation is far away the highest priority. But, you are correct in that people don’t think you have to pay for it. Just because people don’t want to pay for it doesn’t mean they aren’t stupid. Do you know what the average tenure of a Youth Minister is across U.S. diocese? Less than 18 months. And they are usually kids directly out of college who don’t have a clue on organizational skills. We’re putting formation programs for our children in the hands of people who burn out before they even get to know how to do the job right? That’s insane.
Regarding the 80k salary for the Pastoral Associate. Unless you have been exposed to what they do on a daily basis, you can’t have any how much responsibility they have. From liturgical planning, sacraments, RCIA, marriage counseling, and every little thing that the Pastor drops and doesn’t get to. And by and large they have more than one advanced degree. Again, I do this professionally and I consider 80k to be the low end of the salary band for a job with responsibility. By the way, the average full-time Youth Minister makes 25k.
Of course people do these jobs out of passion for the ministry, duh. That doesn’t justify screwing them. There is absolutely no reason you cannot apply the same metrics and pay scales to ministry work. The fact that that is the way it is is no less sinful than the low wages paid to migrant workers and Walmart employees - the same issues of fairness and justice apply. And the fact that it occurs within the context of a Christian organization makes it all the unconscionable.
You are obligated to think about ministry from a Christian perspective, not a business perspective. As much as people want to think business is the ultimate measure of a culture’s morality, it simply isn’t.
@Andrew: I am not the one responsible for running the parish so cool your jets. Don’t lecture me. I am only telling you what is going on and how things are seen by those in the pew. If you think politics are not involved in parish and diocesan life then you are delusional. Why isn’t the Bishop stepping up and funding your Youth Ministries and increasing salaries? I’ve already answered that question and you didn’t like the answer. Why all the money for Music? Do you know how much Cantors are paid for each Sunday Mass? —bad singing to boot? Half the cost of RCIA material is useless and only serves to increase revenue for Catholic publishing houses. I’ve been involved in that. Our Bishop collected >100m in his Capital Campaign years ago and hasn’t spent a dime on building new parishes, (as he told us he was going to do), plus new diocesan high schools or making upgrades to parish grammar schools. Parish Finance Councils always seem to be mysteriously hand picked with “YES” people who will only rubber stamp what the Pastor wants with little regard for exercising proper fiduciary responsibility. Finally, your reality of what a Pastoral Associate does for 80k in one parish should not be applied to every parish.
Not all Catholic parishes have high liturgy budgets. I know of two parishes, one is affluent, the other has mostly middle class families.
The affluent parish of around 400 families has a liturgy budget of almost $150K now - it went up incrementally, from $100K in 2005, to where it is now. Most pays for a music minister that oversees professional singers, professional pianists, etc. Only the choir is volunteer and made up of parishioners.
The Catholic parish of average means has also around 400 families. Their liturgy budget is just under $20,000. They have only a keyboard (no piano or organ) and men that play guitars - the keyboardist is a professional pianist.
But the cantors are a group that just lead the rest of the congregation. I don’t know who is paid or not, for sure there. But music in both parishes, about 10 miles apart and in the same diocese, is the same to me.
My opinion is the additional $130K is better spent elsewhere, and for purposes that draw souls to Jesus the Christ, causing them to think about matters of eternal value, not just entertaining them on Sundays, for one hour.
$80K for a pastoral associate? Outrageous, unless the person is seminary trained, and knows how to teach God’s word, preaching on Sundays, and teaching Bible studies, etc., during the week.
I agree with CC that the new missals create a comfortable revenue stream for Catholic publishers. That’s why, I think, the Vatican refused to allow the name “Yahweh” to be used in some hymns a few years ago; that in an of itself, caused ALL the hymnbooks to be re-written, a ridiculous expenditure.
If our Catholic clergymen had to be in the real world, working and supporting a wife and family, they’d look for ways to cut costs, and not spend other people’s money as if it grew on trees. This is why, I believe, they also never met an illegal immigrant they didn’t want to embrace and have someone else support. What about the word “illegal” do they not understand?
I think the influence of Anglican clergy, many married men with families, KNOWING what it’s like to budget in the real world, will be good for our Catholic church, for people in the pews as well as our church leaders.
Imagine what men that know what it’s like to budget could do with a $100 million! They’d not be spending it for frivilous things, like changing the word Yahweh in hymn books, and insisting we all go back to Pre-Vatican II verbiage, like “And with your spirit” so missals have to be changed.
I know a Baptist church that has the same wonderful hymn book since 1965. It’s as pertinent today as it was then, with lovely hymns & inspirational readings. For modern music, they have an automatic screen where they push a button and use it down, or put it back up. They have a professional pianist - that plays for FREE on Sundays. He plays in a symphony too, & he has his own CD’s. He is a member of that parish, of about 100 people. Now this is cost effective.
I welcome the Anglican clergymen. I applaud that they came over due to wanting to protect a God-honoring church structure, one of which St. Paul would approve, from having read his Pastoral Letters to Timothy & Titus. By the way, my question from last Wednesday about Paul’s Pastoral Letters has gone unanswered. I wonder why? Seems to me that it would add to this discussion, and it is on topic.
Fyi: Fr Wilkinsen has always been a celibate.
There are many non-Catholic clergymen that chose to remain celibate, but they took no vow to God, or promised their bishop to never marry. They have been very effective in the Kingdom of God, drawing many to Christ.
But the majority of clergymen that converted to Roman Catholic are indeed married, and many, with families. The ones I know about have been very well received by their Catholic parishes, as have their wives.
“The Rambler” - will you please answer my question about what Paul wrote in his Pastoral Letters to Timothy and to Titus? Or someone? Please, will you answer my specific question? In advance, I thank you.
Terah, in the passage you are talking about (1 Tim 3:1-5) when St. Paul said that “to be a bishop (the man under consideration) be… the husband of one wife… and know how to rule his own house”, St. Paul wasn’t saying that every bishop should have a wife (for St. Paul himself had none), but that no one should be admitted to the holy orders of bishop, priest, or deacon, who had been married more than once. Also, a household can be a group of people not related by blood (such as a rectory or monastery), or even a single person. For example, the Monsignor (Pastor) at my parish would be considered the head of the household at my parish in the above mentioned case.
I hope this answers your question.
Patti, thanks for sharing your thoughts about the passage in 1 Timothy.
Why, in your opinion, does Paul go on to mention that an ordained man’s children are to be believers, known for living according to God’s word?
Secondly, it’s not that any single man would be *prevented* from being ordained, or that a widower married more than once would be *prevented*, but my point is this question: would Paul insist ALL ordainded clergymen to promise NEVER to marry, and forgo fathering children, for the rest of their lives, according to his instructions to Timothy? He repeated the same instructions as he gave Timothy, in his letter to Titus Chapter 1.
So why are married men, with believing wives (1 at a time) and believing children, FORBIDDEN from being ordained in the Roman Catholic church, and for that matter, why are men, known to have God-honoring characters, FORBIDDEN from being promoted to the office of bishop in the Eastern churches that are in union with Rome, just because they are married?
ONLY single men can be bishops in those churches, even if they are allowed to be priests. What’s the big problem that comes with marriage between one man and one woman, that is a deal-killer for a God-honoring man to be ordained to the priesthood and/or to be a bishop?
Question 2 - how many families are in your parish? Most parishes have anywhere from 400 families to 2,000 families where I live. So you are saying that the monsignor at your parish is a literal head to ALL the families in your parish? He knows what’s going on with every person?
I find that odd. Even a bishop doesn’t know what’s going on with every single priest that is supposed to be under his authority. The role of “father” is important and personal. It is a teaching role. What you describe is more like a “mayor” or a “governor”.
1Timothy 3:1-5 and Titus Chapter 1.
Terah, what I shared is what the Catholic Church teaches. In fact, I was quoting directly from the footnotes in my bible.
Married men are not forbidden from being ordained in the Roman Catholic Church, however, they have to meet certain circumstances.
To answer part of Question 2, there are over 1900 families in my parish. In my example I was speaking explicitly about Monsignor being the “father” at the rectory; not a “mayor” type role over the parishioners, sorry if that was unclear.
I am glad that you freely ask these questions, however I am going to suggest that you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to get the rest of your answers. If you don’t own one and don’t want to purchase one (they cost about $20 US), you can use the following link to the Catechism online (Free): http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Peace and love be with you today and always.
Patti.RCIA - I do have a Catechism, and use it fairly often. But I asked about the marital status of priests (and bishops in the Eastern Orthodox churches that are in union with Rome) because what is required of them is not only NOT required of ordained men according to Paul’s letters, but it’s the *opposite* of what Paul wrote.
I find it disturbing that your Monsignor is a “father” of his rectory. The other priests there should already be grown MEN, able to serve as “elders” to the 1900 families in your parish. They should not need a father figure in their lives.
In fact, this is what I find most objectionable; by not being married and by not having families of their own (as Paul states) it keeps a priest in a state of perpetual adolescence. It is the priest that needs a father figure—older priests. Our average priest, even ordained 25 years or more would not even make a good “elder” in the church. Chronologically he may be age 60, but emotionally, he could still be age 16. One never knows.
Paul gave EXCELLENT reasons, for a married male priesthood. Paul gave the ideal qualifications for men in ordained ministry. It would behoove all of us to know what Paul wrote, and to learn from his instructions to Timothy and Titus, and HEED what he wrote.
It’s only the opposite of what Paul wrote in that particular verse… if you continue reading, in the next paragraph, St Paul goes on to say, “But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt. But to them that are married, not I but the Lord commandeth, that the wife depart not from her husband.”
I really don’t know what more there is to say about celibacy other than what I’ve already stated and that you should refer to the CCC for more in depth answers of your questions. (I am just a catechist, not a bishop, and bishops approved the Catechism.)
When I used “father” I was using your term. You are assuming there are other priests in the rectory, and if there were, they would be serving as elders (because they are) to the parishioners as well as the pastor. Do you also find it disturbing that grown people often have bosses at their place of employment? Like it or not, the Church is a hierarchy.
Here I have to disagree, there are many people who never marry in the secular world and none would argue that they are all in a perpetual state of adolescence. To state that someone who has grown in knowledge, faith and wisdom, and has been given the special gift of ordination and spiritual authority over others because he has had to pass certain emotional as well as knowledge based tests is a bit over the top; I’m not saying that it can’t happen, just that it is less likely to happen in the Catholic Church than in other instances where you wouldn’t question a persons authority.
To make my point clearer, let’s use Phillip Jenkins’ quote on sexual abuse by %‘s for insurance reasons as an example. “9.6% of public school students are sexually molested by teachers, coaches or staff members - that’s 290,000 from 1990-2000 (TEN years). Only 11,000 people came forward in 2004 to say they were abused by a priest over the last century (ONE HUNDRED years). In addition, Catholic priests have a lower incident than other denominations of sexual abuse.”
As for your last comment, please note that the very last part of verse 10 (“But to them that are married, not I but the Lord commandeth, that the wife depart not from her husband.”) speaks out against divorce, which is rampant in secular culture, as well as with ministers of other (not Catholic) faiths. Therefore it follows that when a man who was a minister of another faith becomes Catholic and is ordained a priest (or deacon) if he isn’t married, he can’t marry after his ordination; and if he is married and his wife dies, he can’t re-marry.
@Patti.RCIA: [“To state that someone who has grown in knowledge, faith and wisdom, and has been given the special gift of ordination and spiritual authority over others because he has had to pass certain emotional as well as knowledge based tests is a bit over the top.”] Patti, there are enough examples in parishes across the United States of priests who have done a lot damage to those in pew. The culture of Catholicism seemingly grants natural acceptance of these men you describe simply because of their having been ordained. The Roman collar is not pixie dust which magically imputes “growing in knowledge, faith and wisdom.” We deserve to know the conviction of these men. What do they believe—and WHY? What is their conviction regarding the word of God —and do they intend to preach it or only skate through church life? To the contray, many of the abusive clergy you mention were ushered into the seminary following 8th grade graduation at 14 from your parish grammar school without any vocation at all. Merely becoming a Catholic priest doesn’t necessary mean someone has the “Calling.” Enough of these men were never tested and professionally interviewed at age 14, again at 18 or even at 26 prior to ordination to see if they really were REAL men or simply “processed” and rubber-stamped to meet a quota for their diocese. We’ve all paid a high price for men who became a Catholic priest only because Mommy thought it would be “neat idea” if Junior entered the seminary. Real men make good husbands and good clergy. Sissified men make neither.
Patti - St. Paul wrote in his letter to the Galatians that he spent time in the desert, tutored directly by the Holy Spirit, and what he wrote was specific instructions for and to the church. So when Paul wrote, “But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment.” it means that he is giving his own OPINION.
So for lack of better words, on that one point, Paul was being “his own pope.” He did not intend for his own OPINION to be doctrine, or to be a church mandated PRACTICE. Mandated celibacy is, by the way, only a church practice, and it could be changed in a heartbeat, whenever the Vatican decides to obey the specific instructions in Scripture about ordaining married MEN, and “MEN” being the working word.
No, I do not object to men taking orders from a superior. But the Body of Christ is not a business, and has no employer - there IS a hierarchy, but it ought not to be a case of promising obedience to anyone, but God. The church structure, as well as the familial structure, in the ideal world, is one of mutual submission, as in Ephesians Chapter 5. That was a Sunday reading several months ago, but no priest preached on it, and most parishes didn’t even READ the whole section, because it was bracketed, and they opted out of it entirely.
Patti - I am not concluding that one must be married in order to be emotionally mature. However, marriage and the habit of putting another person ahead of ourselves does supply sanctifying grace, and helps to make us more mature, and less selfish. It just happens, when Paul’s Ephesians Chapter 5 instructions are followed.
What I do object to is MANDATED celibacy for life, in order for a male to be ordained to the priesthood, and to be a bishop in the Eastern rite, particularly when that is in complete opposition to what Paul wrote about those qualified to be in the ordained ministry.
Being emotionally immature also does not mean that a male would be a risk for molesting anyone. What I witness is that there is a lack of maturity in terms of even knowing how to handle basic conflict.
Further, when priests have “acted out” with women, and with teenage girls, it’s almost always an immature and shallow relationship, that when even if it produces a child, the priest merely says he’s sorry, and he gets on with his ministerial life, supported by his bishop and his brother-priests.
When priests (or bishops) act out with teenage boys, it’s often inappropriate touching, and the clergymen do not think they are even doing anything really wrong. That’s what I mean by “immature”. It’s not what a MAN would do. A MAN would marry a woman, father children, and as long as he lived, remain faithful to all - at the same time, growing in his spiritual life, as leader of his household. As I read Scripture, a man would be able to remain unmarried OR marry, at any time in his life, and he should not have to promise anyone that he would never marry.
A caveat - women are NOT to be ordained to the priesthood. I am only talking about what St. Paul wrote about MEN. Thank you for the lively discussion - it’s appreciated!
It was tempting to type out a long response, however, it appears we are beating a dead horse here as what is being stated happens everywhere, not only priests in the Catholic Church.
Best wishes for a Merry Christmas and peace to all.
Patti - It is ONLY in the Roman Catholic Church that ordained men are considered to be “alter Cristi”, other Christs. So the position that what ails our church “happens everywhere” is neither valid nor acceptable.
Society does not claim to be “of God”, and its leaders are not thought to be “other Christs”.
The Roman Catholic Church AND all churches in union with the Vatican MUST honor Paul’s detailed and repeated instructions about how the church leadership is to be structured. Further, several years ago, 1/3 of the priests in Milwaukee asked the USCCB to discuss mandated celibacy, and those priests should be respected, and not dismissed so casually. It is not beating a dead horse, to give thought to honoring New Testament instructives, as it is obedience to God. There will only be peace, when God’s wisdom is obeyed in all its “fullness”. Merry Christmas, to all.
First, Terah, your comment dated Dec 19th hadn’t posted until well after I made my comment on the 20th - sorry for any confusion that may have created but it’s not within my control as to when my (or your) response was posted for public viewing.
Second, I want to preface what I’m about to say because I am only speaking about what I have witnessed in the US in my writing here. (Outside the US I have no idea how seminaries are run. I do, however, know that it is not uncommon for missionary Churches outside the US not to see a priest for weeks or months.) And I hope I can respond in a confident, clear, and charitable way, and apologize if my comments offend you in anyway. My replies are not meant to be argumentative.
Third, I was responding to Casting Crowns claims of damage done to parishes across the US, the pixie dust-esque qualities held by priests; and claims that young men enter seminary without pause at age 14 because Mommy wants them to and then just float on down the river to become ordained men without any question (their own or anyone else’s) as to what they believe and their conviction to the Word of God. As I stated previously, the norm for priests is that they have grown in knowledge, faith and wisdom, and have passed certain emotional as well as knowledge based tests; but even this isn’t a guarantee, see CCC 1550
In addition, I’ve personally known (grown up with or have seen grow up) close to a thousand young men who went to a seminary prep high school and decided that the priesthood was not for them; over a hundred who have entered college with the intent to study Theology four years on their way to the priestly vocation and who for whatever reasons heard God calling them in another direction, six (three of them in the last two years) who were very close to ordination (into the deaconate) and discerned (on their own or with the help of others) they could not become priests, and ONE who I grew up with was ordained a priest… not to mention the four priests I know who have subsequently given up their religious life and become married men. (Of course I have met many, many men who were already priests by the time I met them throughout the many years I have been alive.) Maybe in other places around the US there is an abundance of priests (“quota meeting” or true calling, I couldn’t say), but I have yet to see it in my travels… many of the places I have been (in the US) have missionary Churches – where there is one priest traveling to several Churches to say Mass.
When I said that we’re beating a dead horse and that unjust things happen everywhere I was speaking of the fact that pastors and ministers of other faiths can also be guilty of atrocities - not just priests; not to mention those who get an “ordination” online and open a “First Church of my Garage” (and many do) – meeting with their “congregation” one time (sometimes never to meet with any of those from that same group of people again), baptizing them by immersion in the hall bathtub, preaching anything they wish and claiming their own “Christian doctrine”. (Please note that I am not speaking out against such people, only acknowledging that it happens, and in many forms – as I have seen with my own eyes.)
Terah, I apologize for my delayed response (I haven’t been online since I last posted). When Paul says “by indulgence” it means “by a condescension to your weakness” – this also happens to be Tradition. Previously I stated that there are currently some married priests, and we all should know that there have been married priests in the past, but that doesn’t mean that all priests should be married. There are numerous examples where people were consecrated to the Lord in the bible: they either remained virgins or gave up their sexuality to be closer to God. (The first example that comes to mind is Judith after her husband died.)
It is interesting that you point to Ephesians 5 to back up your claims that priests should be married, since it is the very chapter that many point to say that Tradition is backed up by Christ’s bride being the Church; and therefore priests, in persona Christi, are also husbands to one bride, “the Church… according to St. Paul, is ever obedient to Christ, and can never fall from him, but remain faithful to him, unspotted and unchanged to the end of the world.” (This is also why my 15 yr. old daughter, Rachel, stated on EWTN radio: “A woman priest would be the equivalent of a lesbian.”)
Again, as I have said in the past, I am not a bishop. The answers you are looking for have been addressed by the Magisterium, and I’m just a simple catechist on a web forum.
It’s just pathetic that people and this Church continue to rely on twisted and contorted scriptural proofs that only single men and no women can be ordained.
Open your eyes! The priesthood is dying. What more proof do you need that major reforms are needed? God is telling us that the idea of only celibate males being ordained is just flat out wrong.
The priesthood is not dying.
Andrew - “Open your eyes!” you write.
Well, when you take your own advice, you’ll SEE/READ in the Bible, that the Vatican is 100% correct, by not ordaining women. Women are NOT to lead men, either in a parish, or at home.
Correctly reading Ephesians Chapter 5 instructs that. That chapter has nothing to do with “backing up a claim that priests should be married”, as Patti wrote. My reference to it simply clarifies man/woman ROLES in relationships and in our church structure. It is Paul’s Pastoral Letters (to Timothy and Titus, plus 1 Corinthians 9:5) that call for married men to ordained church ministry.
Patti is obviously well meaning, and trying hard to understand. But I just do not know where to begin, to correct her flawed interpretation of the Bible.
Her comments are Isogesis, and not Exogesis (spelling may be incorrect). The first is when you have a premice, and you cherry-pick verses out of Scripture to proove your point; the second is when you correctly interpret a verse, by comparing it to OTHER verses that say the same thing, PROOVING your interpretation is correct.
Once, I read a copy of the Koran in English. It was almost as if a Bible exploded, and the pieces landed into a book that was compiled as The Koran. In many ways, it’s hard to make sense of it, but references are made to Jesus (even the Virgin birth) and to Mary, as Jesus’ mother.
I mention the Koran because it reminds me of what Patti wrote that cherry-picks Bible verses willy-nilly, contorting them, so church “Practices” appear to be from God Himself, while they are 100% man-made. Specifically, I mean that while women are not to be ordained priests, married men ARE to be ordained priests, bishops and even popes.
About women - a deaconess is a service role. Phoebe was called by Paul a “deaconess”. But she was not a church leader over men, and she would NOT meet the qualifications given to us, by properly EXEGETING the many references required for ministry, found in Scripture, primarily in Paul’s writings. Paul, by the way, is the reason the church in Rome began. It was Paul’s followers that went to Rome, and the reason it was Paul that wrote his letter to the Romans. I agree with you about all of us needing to “OPEN OUR EYES!” That was well stated, Andrew.
Terah, Thanks the personal slam. BTW, I was responding to the verses that were already “cherry picked” by you.
May I recommend you read the information contained at the following links to get the information you so badly claim to want about priestly celibacy?
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/celibacy-and-the-priesthood
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20111109_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930714en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930714en.html
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb63.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb72.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb79.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb80.htm
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Patti, if you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, what specific verse or verses do you say gives us the ideal qualifications for people in ordained church ministry?
@Kathleen - “the priesthood is not dying”
OK, then how about I put it this way - priests are dying faster than they are being ordained. That’s an undeniable fact.
The number of priests are declining in the US but not worldwide! And many of the priests retiring and/or dying in the US are progressive priests who think they know better how to run the Church then the Pope. The Catholic Church will prevail against all odds and all progressives! Pray for our priests and pray for our country!
Andrew - your point is well taken. I know a priest that’s almost 90 years old. Every Sunday, he has a lady friend (former secretary) drive him to two parishes, about 20 miles apart, in the mountains where they live, so he could preside at Mass. He’s 90. Let the man retire. He officially “retired” as a pastor around age 82. Ever since, he’s been schlepping to churches on Sundays, to “help out” that diocese.
Also, there are way too many foreign-born priests, so one can hardly understand them, due to strong accents, when they give homilies. It’s hard for them, and for parishioners too. There is so little in common.
It ought not be like that, and striving to be “holy” and to encourage little boys to want to be priests, is not the answer.
They used to train 13 year old boys to be priests, and therein lies the difference between being “called” to Preach & Teach God’s word, being compelled to share the Gospel, and being “trained” or tutored to do a job.
Terah, what makes you think the 90 year old priest wants to, shall we say, fully retire? I drove Msgr Baum around for over 20 years and he would not have been happy to just sit around and be useless. He died Dec. 20th, 2000, just shortly before his 93 birthday which was on Jan. 2nd. He was like grandfather to me. The only retirement for priests is death or physical disability. You don’t know much about priests.
Andrew, priests are not dying out faster than they are being ordained.
All you have forgotten to address one big item. Priests who convert to Catholicism. Where I live we are practically over run with them. My own pastor is a convert from the Angelican church. So we not only have cradle Catholic priests, we have converted Baptist, Jew, Angelican, Episcopal priests, all of who I know personally. Our conversion rate is astronomical, lay and priests alike.
I had hoped that the Ordinariate would have been more receptive to the Traditional Anglicans who worked for the Union with Rome the TAC. The movenent here in the USA appears more inclined to be interested in the 1979 liberal Episcopalians than the conservative 1928 Book of Common Prayer Anglicans. Having the choice of a widowed Traditional Anglican Bishop or a modern Episcopal Bishop, The powers to be, chose the latter.
May the4 Holy Ghost be allowed to work for the good of His Holy Church
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