What saddens me the most is the last line, about his father crying.  Even the tears of the father don’t help this man see the pain he causing with his pride.  In humility and sincerity he should admit that his intellect and his “heart” do not exhaust the possibility that he may just have come to the wrong conclusion, and yet the incapacity to say “I recant, I will go back and look at this more” is more than just certainty, it’s arrogance.  I understand that one cannot violate their conscience, but a recantation is not to say you are wrong, it’s to admit that you don’t know you are right.  It’s to take back what you say, not what you think.  Such a shame.

Bourgeois is just another Communist trying to destroy the Church from within.  The Marynolls are rife with these guys. If he so bent on his beliefs why dosen’t he just become Episcoplian? The faster he’s excommunicated the better for everyone.

One of the characteristic of scripture: Perfection and Truth of Scripture: 2 Samuel 22:31 ” As for God , his way is perfect; the word of the Lord is tried : he is a buckler to all them that trust in him. This Priest really needs to reflect on biblical theology or his false stance on Church Teachings in reference to the sacrament of Ordination.  There are Threefold Sacriice of Consecration : ( The Sin Offering, The Burnt Offering, The Peace Offering) Biblical Theology revealed The Peace Offering Exodus 29:19 ” And thou shalt take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram , Exodus 29: 31-32 ” And thou shalt take the ram of the consecration, and seeth his flesh in the holy place And Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ra, , and the bread that is in the basket , the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. Theologically Exodus 25-31 ( Tabernavle and Priesthood) The purpose if the tabernacle is to mediate the presence of yaweh , so that as Israel moves on from Sinai , the divine presence that came upon Sinai can continue to accompany Israel in this ” Sacramental “.  Shrine. the ark and mercy seat is where Yaweh will meet with Moses ( Exodus 25:22), and the regular daily sacrifices will set the context for Yaweh’s sanctifying presence in Israel (Exodus 29:38-46, a key interpretative passage)
A reminder Exodus 29:1-37 , The consecration of priests. This passage ia apparently based on the account of the consecration of Aaron and his son ( Leviticus 8) and assumes the sacrificial regulations of ( Leviticus 1-7) .There is no detailed account of the installation of a priest before this pistachios passage, and the only feature in common with earlier passages (Judge 17:5-12;  I a kings 13:33) is the idea expressed in the word translated ordain( vs.9) literally ” fill the hand” - either the handing over of a sacrificial victim to the priest (CSS. 24-25, cross reference Leviticus 8:27-28)
The limitation of the hereditary priesthood to the family of Aaron reflects post exilic usage. Throughout the historical period up to the exile the priestly status of the Levites was recognized( Deuteronony 27:9,33:8, Judge 17:13) but the office was not limited to them example ( Samuel was an Ephraimite and the highest priestly office was held by the king.
exodus 29:4-9 ” After ceremonial washing of all the candidates Aaron , i.e. The candidate for high priest , is to be invested with the high priestly garments ( Exodus Chapter28) and then anointed as a symbol of his being set apart from common associations . His sons, i.e. those to be lesser priests, are then to be invested in their garments ( cross reference 28:40)
Lastly for reflection , the Doctrinal Document of the Catholic Church on the Sacrament of Ordination : Pope Paul vi , Motu Proprio Sacrum Diaconatus Ordinem ( 1967) , Encylical letter Sacerdotalis Coelibatus(1967) Apostolic Constitution Pontificalus Romani ( 1968) . Catechism of the Catholic Church ( The sacramt of Holy Orders) #1536-1589
Father Bourgeois is greatly mistaken and in great Error !!
All the little details to do with the. Consecration serve the transcendence and holiness of God. Everything to do with the rite, be it the people or the things they us, should reflect the fact that it is all centered on God.
peace to all during this Lenten Season.

Did his mother not teach him that you may have your own opinion, but you must be obedient when necessary? Speaking out rebelliously against The Church when you have vowed yourself to her is disobedient and scandalous. Women are allowed and given very important roles in The Church and we are able to serve in ALMOST all of the same ways. Must a woman be a priest to love and serve God to the best of her ability? To fulfill God’s will for her? I think not!

“It upsets me so much that a man who has done so much good has been accused of giving scandal.”

Just because he is in error about this doesn’t negate all the good things he has done. He is human and flawed, like the rest of us. Another lesson in not putting humans on pedestals. Sounds like humility and obedience are the issues here.

Doesn’t ‘Pope Bourgeois’ sound kinda odd?  Really - this man is an embarrassment! Lots of other churches that will take him in as a minister of sorts.  What do you bet he’s got a book or some other public relations revenue generating idea up his sleeve?

Rome wants two words from Fr. Bourgeois: “I recant.”

Instead, he offers two other words: “Non serviam.”

Sad.

God Bless this brave man for speaking the Truth! He is a true prophet. I wish we had more priests like him. Truly the Holy Spirit is alive within Fr. Bourgeois.

Indeed, as others have said, there is an authority that is beyond that of what he knows in his heart and in his intellect.  While one cannot go against one’s conscience, what is a well-formed conscience meant to be founded on?  Nothing less than the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

No-one has any “right” to the priesthood, or to any vocation at all.  One is called by God.  I’m a woman, and simply because I love theology, appreciate a good homily, and I want to serve God better does not imply that I have a calling to the priesthood that the Vatican and the Holy Father are refusing to recognize.  The idea that the Magisterium simply doesn’t want to ordain women is irrelevant:  the Magisterium of the Church simply has no authority.

Amen, Rick! All these posts against Fr. Bourgeois extol unthinking obedience over reason and compassion. All you Bourgeois nay-sayers…if you lived hundreds of years ago, would you have shamed those who stood up to the Vatican’s endorsement of slavery? Would you have decried those who challenged the logic of sending innocent children to horrific deaths on a Crusade? It just doesn’t occur to you that sometimes Church teaching is just WRONG.

Oh what a bunch of baloney! It’s the hierarchy that says women can’t be priests, not God. Stop passing the buck to God and admit it - the hierarchy made up a rule it doesn’t want to back down on.
Seriously. The Bible says in four, monosyllabic words we are not to kill. And yet the Church hierarchy discusses in earnestness the concept of a “just war.” If you can hedge on “thou shalt not kill,” you can definitely consider, discuss, and carry out the ordination of women.

Bravo to Father Roy.  History will prove him right.

A brave honest man, willing to suffer for his belief (a martyr!).  The church needs people with this kind of integrity.  2nd Timothy is the most repressive chapter in the bible, used to beat Women into submission.

I am also a Catholic woman, a reasonably smart, well-educated, empowered Catholic woman, and I say “amen sister” to Wsquared.  Women are not called to the priesthood for very good reasons.  I am saddened that this priest is exalting himself and, yes, his pride, in this way.  And I am sad for those who will be misled by him, no matter what happens.

His comments about his inability to recant are reminiscent of Luther’s speech at the Diet of Worms. Hmm…

There arr no reasons found in scripture to deny the priesthood to women.  God calls who God calls.  As Paul says, in Christ there is neither male nor female.  The RCC should not stand in the way of women cslled by the Holy Spirit to the priesthood.

May be Father Bourgeois should consider joing the feminist movement instead of the Catholic Church.  I’m sure he’ll truly find equality to be a bit of myth…

After Roy wrote to all Maryknoll Society members asking us to support him in his stance on women’s ordination I wrote him a kindly letter saying “You are wrong, Roy”.  I said it five times, I believe.  I would say the same to anyone who asked me to be an accomplice.

Personally, I don’t think it would be morally wrong for women to be priests in the Roman Catholic Church and I don’t think priests should be penalized for believing so, but in this case Father Bourgeois was wrong to act directly against Church law and teaching in illegally ordaining a woman then telling the Church it is wrong.
Currently, women are not called to the priesthood, but I believe that it is not impossible for them to be called to it some time in the future. When it really comes down to it, it is up to the discretion of the magisterium, as there is really no compelling moral argument against women priests, as illustrated by the quote in this article, “For whatever reason, God has chosen the role of priest only for men.” True, the 12 apostles were all men. Perhaps that was for practical purposes. The 12 apostles were all Jews too, but today we ordain priests of all racial backgrounds.

What next will father Bourgeois believe deeply?  He is like thousands of heritics before him and is free to start a new Protestant denomination. It happens every day. He sounds like a liberation nut bag. He is not being tortured or racked.  Say goodbye to him.

MCM,

Before you write about history, please learn it.  If you are talking about the Children’s crusade, it was not organized nor initiated by Pope Urban II like the first crusade was.  Crusaders volunteered to go and paid their own way and that of their retainers, they were not coerced, required, nor financially supported by the Church. Please remember why there were the Crusades…  To free countries tha were once Christian and were violently taken over my Islam. 

The Vatican did not endorse slavery, but said that if a slave, then one should be obedient to his/her owner.  There is a difference between endorsing slavery and opposing violence.

How dare you contradict the teaching of the Magisterium.  Just because YOUR will is that there be women priests, don’t impose your will on God’s which has been faithfully carried out by the Catholic Church for nearly 2000 years.

Elizabeth K, please share some of those “good reasons”.  And please do not tell me that Jesus only chose men. By that logic, the requirement to be a priest should be that you are a married, Jewish fisherman.

If Fr. Bourgeois is indicative of the calbre of maryknoll priests is it any wonder why the maryiknolls are a dying irrelevant religous order. May they rest in peace.

MCM, this is the usual old-hat cant of those who presume that the Church “endorsed slavery,” and therefore Catholic teaching on whatever the heck it is you want is therefore malleable.  That is false.  The Church’s Magisterium and the Popes did not “endorse slavery” in its official teachings.  In fact, there were papal bulls in the 15th and 16th century condemning slavery that enough people didn’t listen to.  Mark Brumley has a rather good exposition on St. Paul, slavery, and the Early Church here:  http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1201

“Chattel slavery” is not the same as the slavery that existed before that.  Chattel slavery is the following:  “Whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery . . . the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where men are treated as mere tools for profit, rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others of their like are infamies indeed . . . they are a supreme dishonor to the Creator.” 

Scholars who have actually studied slavery carefully do make that distinction.  Slavery before the burgeoning slave trade as a part of incipient market capitalism during the 16th-18th centuries was not the same as chattel slavery.  That difference is also available in the primary sources:  read Olaudah Equiano’s slave narrative and notice the distinctions he makes between the slavery that was a part of everyday African life and this new type of slavery that was changing the landscape of slavery as he had theretofore known it.  The story of slavery in the new world is far more complicated than you imagine, and it developed over time.

Chattel slavery, like every other worldly sin that corrupts human beings, also touched the Catholic Church in the United States.  Slavery touched everything in the United States, including the Catholic Church there, unfortunately.  Again, I should point out that there is always tension in the relationship between local churches and the Holy See:  the Pope can condemn something, and he does.  And people sin, and do whatever they want, anyway.  That’s reality.  The Church has always taught, and people have always been free to listen or not.  Like you, and those who want “women priests” are certainly doing now.  But while you are free to ignore Church teachings and say whatever you want, and you are free to speak your mind and dissent, you are NOT free to demand that the Church should comply with your dissent.

Furthermore to point to the authority of God is not palming things off on or blaming God.  The Magisterium understands itself to be the servant of the Holy Spirit.  If we’re going to talk about authority, how is it that you’re able to dispense with divine authority?  I am also deeply intrigued how it is that you argue that the Magisterium should be viewed as wrong in this case.  It’s one thing to question the teachings of the Magisterium, as one should:  all the better to understand them.  But shouldn’t one also question one’s self?  How do you know that you’re not wrong?  Or do you presume that just because you “feel” that something is right, it must be right?

“It just doesn’t occur to you that sometimes Church teaching is just WRONG.”

I’m curious as to why you even think that you’re right.

Elizabeth K., allow me to “amen sister” right back.  Here’s the thing:  why does equality have to entail “sameness”?  Why should a well-educated, empowered, intelligent Catholic woman have to be allowed to be a priest in order to feel appreciated or “equal”?  As per serving the Church, what’s to stop women being Canon lawyers and theologians?  Catholic women aren’t restricted to being parish secretaries (and who’s to say such service is not fulfilling?), and nobody’s saying that women should shut up, stay home, and go back to the kitchen.  Could a woman not be a well-regarded theologian (like Pia de Solenni or Mary Shivanandan), U.S. Ambassador to the Holy See (like Mary Ann Glendon), or be an upstanding Catholic in whatever her vocation in life?  The latter itself is a heck of a contribution, given how the surrounding culture can be so spiritually deadening if we give into it, instead of putting it into perspective.  Why does a woman have to be a priest to be any of these things?  The priesthood is not a job.  It’s a way to be.  Men aren’t called to be mothers and can’t give birth, so why is it so awful that women aren’t called to be fathers—and by extension, priests?

I will pray for his misguided soul, when will they ever learn that you must obey the teachings of the church.  The Blessed Mother would have been the front runner if GOD wanted women to be priest.  A woman can not be in the person of Christ because he was a man.  Mary

Chris C,  you indiacted that women are not currently called tot he priesthood.  How do you know that?  With God all things are possible.  It seems many women have been/are called to the priesthood by the Holy Spirit.  It is the RCC who refuses to accept what the Holy Spirit wants of men and women.

Rick, an all-male priesthood goes back to the Old Testament, and is continued in the New Testament with Christ.  A Catholic reading of Sacred Scripture, after all, is not based solely on the New Testament, but Old and New taken together, and read in the light of Christ.  Christ came to renew the priesthood of the Old Testament while not abrogating it.  And it’s not so much that “Jesus chose only men,” but that Christ himself was male, and that all priests share in his priesthood.  A priest, during Mass, says:  “this is my body… this is my blood.”  All priests are ontologically configured to Christ upon ordination.  They share in the one, unique priesthood of Christ, and they act in persona Christi—as another Christ.  Christ works through the priest in confecting the Eucharist.  For a woman to do so would render the sacrament invalid:  the sacrament is not contingent upon the worth of the individual, but on Christ.  A priest is called to be a spiritual father, as a the bridegroom with the Church as his bride.  A woman cannot be a father or a groom.

The rationalization for accepting the evil of slavery is precisely that: a rationalization. It’s ironic that so many Christians are rabid about the ‘objective moral disorder’ and sinfulness of homosexuality, but completely ignore the fact the Church did NOT condemn slavery until the 15th century. Even THEN it was a conditional, one off condemnation of slavery in the Canary Islands. And yes, slavery was MURDER pure and simple. Edward McNall Burns in his classic book “Western Civilization” details slavery’s HORRENDOUS actions in the Roman Empire and in the West. Those who justify this simply ignore the issue of it being PURE EVIL. James McPherson’s “Battle Cry of Freedom” also points out that Catholic Bishops stated Catholic slaveholders were not bound by the Emancipation Proclamation. So those who try to JUSTIFY the Church’s ACCEPTANCE of the absolute moral evil of SLAVERY are simply trying to whitewash a DISGRACEFUL acceptance of GENOCIDE by Christians for almost 2000 years.

With God all things are possible.  It seems many women have been/are called to the priesthood by the Holy Spirit.  It is the RCC who refuses to accept what the Holy Spirit wants of men and women.

Lisa Kaiser, could you kindly enlighten us as to what you mean by “with God, all things are possible”?  Do you mean that you imagine that with God, all things are somehow ultimately permissible, and it’s just a matter of time?  If yes, then you are forgetting something:  there is no further revelation;  as per Scripture, we already know how the story ends.  God is therefore not going to say that women priests are okay, that contraception is okay, that abortion is okay, and that gay marriage is okay.

Even IF the church teaching were to be “wrong” objectively, one would not be wrong to follow if “subjectively”.  Obedience and humility are honored by God above human correctness.  Christ’s passion and death were certainly all wrong and Jesus knew how incongruent they were with his Godhead, but/and He submitted to it because it was God the Father’s will, which He was, personified.
Jesus, teach us obedience and humility, especially when it doesn’t make sense to us, because that is when it is really obedience and humility.

Wsquared, if you follow your logic to its conclusion thene the only people who should be RC priest are Jewish men from Galilee, mostly married Jewish fishermen.

It does not matter that Jesus was maale.  As Paul reminds us, in Christ there is neither male nor femal.e And of course with God all things are possible.  God calls who God wants to the priesthood—including women.

The RCC has changed over the centureis—there were no nuns, monastic communities or religious orders in the early church. Those grew over time to meet the needs of the people in those times.  The spiritual needs of people change over time.  Perhaps the call from Fr. Roy and many, many other to ordain women is God’s message to us that now is the time to ordain women in order to mee the spirtiual needs of people, that old hieriarch/clerical culture has become corrupt and is dying.  That God wills the ordination of women (married women and men) as renewal of the RCC.

As Paul reminds us, in Christ there is neither male nor femal.e And of course with God all things are possible.  God calls who God wants to the priesthood—including women.

But that’s a sign of the world to come.  Well, we’re not there yet, are we?  Indeed, in Christ, there is neither male nor female.  But while we’re on this earth, we always fall temptation to sin, and we sin mightily.  So tell me:  are we yet fully in Christ, then?

Wsquared, if you follow your logic to its conclusion thene the only people who should be RC priest are Jewish men from Galilee, mostly married Jewish fishermen.

No, it means nothing of the kind.  Again, go back to the Old Testament, and read it together with the new.  We’re looking at a priesthood that stretches from Adam, Aaron, Melchizedek, David… so we’re not looking only at Jewish fishermen from Galilee.  If anything, Christ elevated these fishermen from Galilee to the priesthood established with the Old Covenant, which he’s continuing into the New, until we reach our home with the Father in Heaven.

The RCC has changed over the centureis—there were no nuns, monastic communities or religious orders in the early church. Those grew over time to meet the needs of the people in those times.  The spiritual needs of people change over time.

That’s not an argument for why women should be priests.  Because the priesthood is theological, and not merely functional, what you’re saying doesn’t really make sense. 

The spiritual needs of people are the same as usual:  combatting pride, envy, lust, sloth, gluttony, anger, and greed. 

Furthermore, I hardly think that the ordination of women would renew the faith and better evangelize it:  in order to evangelize, the lay people have to practice the faith out in the world, using the talents that God gave us to serve others and transform the culture.  To assume that everybody should be priests would potentially confine that evangelization to clericalism.  It’s bad enough that so many of us see being Catholic as being confined to going to church on Sundays—do we really think that that’s what God wants?  The way to combat excessive clericalism is not more clericalism.

Lisa, I actually support the ordination of women to some extent, as I said in my comment.
I know that women are not currently called to the priesthood because the Magisterium says so. As I understand it, that is how the Catholic Church works. The Magisterium is understood to hold the same authority Christ himself passed into the 12 apostles. Therefore, basically whatever they say goes, because they interpret the holy scriptures and the sacred tradition of the Church. Sure, there are a lot of historical and theological reasons as to this set up, but I’m not an expert on that.
As I also understand it, half of the practices and laws the Magisterium comes up with for her faithful are practical in nature, as opposed to having a purely theological reasoning behind them. One good example of this is the practice of clerical celibacy, which the Church has come plainly out in saying is not morally necessary, but serves a very good practical purpose.
All this being said, it is up to the discretion of the Magisterium to decide if tradition will allow women to be called to the priesthood. It seems to me like Old Testament priests were male because that was 3000 yeas ago and every aspect of society in every part of the world was highly patriarchal. The same was true in Jesus’s day. It is only within the last 100 years that women have been seen as equal under the law in the western world. So from Christ until now women have not been allowed to be priests for whatever reason, but Vatican II is a clue that the Church can change its stance on practical matters.
This is all coming from someone who was raised protestant and has been reading up on the Catholic Church for some time, so I’m no expert, but I certainly wouldn’t oppose things rooted in morality like abortion or contraception.

Wsquared,  Wow, you really want to limit God—who cannot be limited. God created a dynamic world/universe.  It continues to change and evolve—the universe continues to expand-it has no center and no edge.  Evolution of living creatures here on earth is ongoing Creation is ongoing.  In Hebrew, the first sentence of Genesis is “In the begining of God’s creating..”  This implies that creation is ongoing.  Change is ongoing and the will of God. Nothing that is living stops changing, to stop changing is to die. 

Over the centureis the RCc has changed, read history to follow how the RCC has changed.  A quick example: during the late 16th and early 17th centuries the RCC fought tooth and nail to keep scripture in Latin, to keep the Bilbe out of the hands of lay people and in only in the hands of the clergy.  Those who wanted to change that situation were called heretics, arrested, put to death.  Now, ther are RCC authorized editions of the Bible, in all langueages of the world. 

Another example:  for 600 yrs the RCC tortured and murdered “heretics” and Jews who did not want to become Christian.  Thankfully, this is no longer the practice or teaching of the RCC.

Genesis reminds us that men and women are created int he image of God.  Paul reminds us that in Christ there is neither male nor female.

The RCC must change or it will die.  The nedds of th RCs do not remain static, they are dynamic and ever changing.  One day the RCc will ordain women as priests.

Lisa, your arguments are very weak.
Your problem seems to be with the way the Roman Catholic Church works, not with any specific issue. I have seen this in a lot of modern Catholics. All my Catholic friends say “magis-what?” when I tell them how their own church works. The truth is, they really don’t care. It looks like you do though. Someone else also cared in year 1517. His name was Martin Luther. I don’t understand why more dissenting Catholics don’t convert to Protestantism. Your line of reasoning sounds a lot like a Protestant one. The truth is, the Roman Catholic Church is governed by a ruling body that makes all the rules. If you don’t like it, why do you stay? Martin Luther did not stay. I’m not telling you you should leave. I actually like the RCC’s theology better than protestant theology. I just think you should consider how the Roman Catholic Church works and whether or not you agree with it before you prescribe Protestant reasoning.
This argument has gotten off the topic of ordaining women as priests, but I suppose any conversation of why the Roman Catholic Church does what it does requires an understanding of how the Church operations and comes to these conclusions and how that differs from the way Protestants go about themselves, but unfortunately most Catholics lack that understanding.

We can’t all be right in our opinions.  I guess that’s why Jesus established the church and the magisterium and expects trusting obedience from us - just as He gave the Father.  It sure looks like another schism coming down.  Martin Luther, move over!!

Chris C, You make assumptions that I am either Catholic or Protestant.  I am neither.  There many alternatives out there.  What I see in this thread of conversation is a lot about the magisterium (which I understand, I have a BA in Roman Catholic theology from a Roman Catholic college) and not a lot about God.  The rigid right in the RCC refuses to believe that God can and does work outside the magisterium, that the magisterium is not the voice of God and carries no authority.  The magisterium just conveniently says that it is the voice of God and many people just blindly follow along.  Remember this is the hieriarcy that hid/covered up for child abusing priests.  These guys have no moral credibility.  God is unlimited and cannot be limited or contained by the RCC.  The RCC is one way to believe, it is not hte only legitimate way.

There is very little movement in the RCC today to make the RCC better.  There is nothing scriptural about the current model of the hierarchy in the RCC.  It can and should be changed—it is corrupt and outmoded.  It is time for the laity to remind the hierarchy that the hieriarchy is accountable to God and to the laity.

One post here just says we are sinful, so go along with that.  In the Garden of Eden men and women were created equal by God.  As a punishment for sin, humans were separated from the perfect relationship they enjoyed with God in the Garden of Eden.  If Christianity had any credibility, the arguements here would be that we human beings should be trying to regain that perfect relationship (which entails the equality men and women). 

History will prove the supporter of women’s ordination right in the long run.  Ordaining women will not just creat more clericalism, not just continue the existing model of a corrupt hierarchy.  Ordaining women and returning toa married priesthood (as was the case int he fist 1,100 yrs of the RCC) would radically change the clerical model for the better.

For everyone that supports the ordination of women, will you please answer these 2 simple question for me?

1) What are the SPECIFIC qualifications for those in ordained Church Ministry, per Scripture?  I do not mean the OLD Testament.  I mean in the NEW Testament.  You’ll find specific qualifications in St. Paul’s writings.  Paul is the only apostle that was directly tutored by the Holy Spirit, and Paul and his writings are totally ignored by the Vatican.  Yea, we hear what he wrote at Mass.  But NO priest teaches about what he wrote.  NONE.  The Vatican shimmies out of what he wrote about qualifications for ordained ministers.  They think ALL of us Catholics are stupid.  Granted, most are.  But not ALL.

2) Where in UNIVERSAL Church Tradition were there ever women priests?
I don’t mean in some obscure village of the Middle East, 1000 years ago.
I mean in verifiable, and universal church tradition.

I ask, because a New Age-type nun once had a hissy fit, and stopped speaking to me entirely, when I asked her those two questions.  She wanted women to be ordained, and she could not answer those two simple questions.  Or… she refused to answer.

For the record: I support a married MALE priesthood, because that was the norm for universal church Tradition until the year 1139AD - and yes, priests had sex and lived with their wives and families then.  They were not expected to ABANDON their families, as God made marriage a COVENANT.

I do not accept women priest because reading Scripture as a whole would forbid it - and I know most Catholics never open their Bibles -that’s why they are easy to fool, like taking candy from a baby…a man with a collar tells a Catholic anything, and the response will be, “Yes, Father!!” —He could be the local garbageman.  Just put him in a Roman collar.

There are NO women priests in Universal Church Tradition either. Fr. Roy can protest as much as he wants.  What he’s calling for is unbiblical - whereas Fr. Martin Luther was bringing God-honoring reforms to people’s attention.  NO SELLING INDULGENCES - NO SELLING CHURCH OFFICES or handing down positions like “bishop” to illegitemate children.

But regarding Women Priests?  The Vatican is correct.

I can’t help but wonder, what does Roy really have to lose? Membership in a all-boy-only-bigot-club that believes in their own false superiority and not only persecutes the “least of these” on a regular basis, but covers-up the torture of children by its own? Seriously, why would you want to be in that group? But, hey, good for Roy.

The most outrageous comment in this article is “They are asking me to lie.” Actually, they are not. They are asking him to honor his vow of obedience, the vow that he made by his own free choice. He has betrayed that vow and the Church. He has breached the contract. He agreed to the standard and is now claiming to be a victim of the standard.

Amazing the number of epithets people come up for this man and those who embrace the views he does.  But in the end, Rome has spoken; the issue is settled (that means that there is no room for discussion of it in Catholic discourse); the man is simply a wilful heretic, as are those who embrace the same views.  Steps must be taken, not to punish them, but to ensure they do no further harm.

The Episcopal church, part of the worldwide Anglican heresy, will likely take Father and use him as a poster child for all that’s wrong with Catholicism and all that’s right with their sect.

The guy’s a PFC. Thank goodness he’s not on the actual battle front, dissenting orders and causing chaos. Let the real men and women of this great army do their job in obedient and patient manner. It’s time to boot the deadwood and move on to the next 2000 years. Just my humble opinion.

His Pride is like Lucifer’s. Humility is not in his vocabulary.

Why does so much precious print and time get spent over and over on these typical narcissistic types who want their continuing 15 minutes of fame??? 

They luv luv luv the radical events of the times, can’t leave the sixties, even in their seventies and find life so dull without making themselves the center of everything. 

He sounds like the type who always needs some “near fatal” saving event to shake some sense into him and then, after being given that saving grace looks the saviour in the eye and says “screw you”. 

Grow up father and stop scandalizing the flock.  They’ve had enough of it these past decades and are on to your immature self anointing emotional tirades!

Some info for the obviously poorly catechised generation commenting here so that their thought might extend beyond the “because it makes me feel good” or “because I’m not too great with theology but at least I mean well”:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/MALEPRIE.TXT

Within this explanation I’d say at least some here would fit into the “Christ was not divine group” or “God the Father is not omniscient” group since He just couldn’t see into the future!!!

Rick-You are wrong! And you don’t know what the——you are talking about! Especially when it comes to the priesthod. Christ ordained only men at that event known as the Last Supper or First Catholic Mass.  Ever heard of it? It was done when he said “Do this in Memory of me.“Christ Our Lord did NOT call his perfect mother.  Your wise—- comment about Jewish Fishermen is typical of the idiots,ingrates &probably; non-Catholic ommentators who infest Catholic sites! Your protestantism-/Catholicism Lite) or atheism are apparent.    Non Catholics have no right to comment here, PERIOD!

I don’t remember where in the Gospels Jesus said “thou art Bourgeois and upon this….I will build my Church”
The church is not a club. If you don’t want to listen to Peter, you are not forced to do so but don’t try to persuade me that I should listen to you instead——I will follow the true shepherd - (the German one)

“He has done many good works…” - so did Lucifer before he said “I can’t recant”... Excommunication is fully deserved in this case.

How sad that this priest is not only offending all believing Catholics, but most of all offending Jesus Himself. The 12 Apostles were men,why did Jesus not have any women if He meant them to also be priests. It is quite obvious what His intentions were and still are.

If Jesus is the Bridegroom and can only be represented by men, then the Church (Christ’s Bride)should consist of only women (not men)! Only women can be Brides! We, both men and women are the Church, the Bride of Christ.
Therefore, the same should go for men and women- all can represent Christ, the Groom. I believe God does call both men and women to the priesthood. Personally, I believe that Jesus used marriage as an analogy of how he loved the Church - as a groom loves the bride- the two become One. As Christ is one with the Father, we are one in Christ.

Born Again Cradle Catholic,  please cite what verses from you specifically have in mid. Psul also reminds us that in Christ there is no male or female.  Snd ehat does tradition have to fo anything. Everything we calltrsdition had a beginning, including Christianity. There eete not always Christians. The ritual calledMass did not always looks asit does now. Thrre erre not alwsys csrfinals, bishops or popes. So the traddition arguement does not fly. Sorry about my typing-am using a mobile device & have not mastered the keypad.

Have you heard what happened to Uzzah who thought he would steady the Ark of the Covenant lest it stumble?....God destroyed him for his irreverence. Jesus himself said that the “gates of Hell would not prevail against the church”,that he built on Peter, so let’s keep our hands off. And as for Martin Luther, after he placed his hands on the “stumbling” church, we are left with total confusion of thousands of denominations all making their own rules and heading off in their own directions. Separated brothers and sisters from the once fully intact universal Church. Thanks for the help Martin.

The Catholic Church as a community of believers requires a priest to be called by the Holy Spirit and for the community to affirm or acknowledge that calling.  Since it is the stated policy for the Catholic Church not to ordain women as priests, then a woman’s so-called “calling” to the priesthood may not be affirmed and is not valid.  One can feel an individual calling to the office of President of the United States, but if that person does not meet the qualifications or get elected, oh well.  Personal calling alone is never sufficient to aspire to any position.  It is not a matter of an individual interpretation of Scripture, personal preference or belief, fairness, sexual parity, etc.  Personal opinion among American Catholics is laughable anyway, since the overwhelming majority are so poorly catechized that they cannot have an informed opinion.  It is the requirement of office in a private organization that has every right to determine the rules for its own membership.  That said, if the priest truly believes in female ordination, after thoroughly examining his conscience, he has two courses of action.  1.  He is entitled to stand by his beliefs but not entitled to continue membership or ordained office in the Church that he represents publicly.  2.  He may humbly ask the Holy Spirit show him how or why his beliefs about female ordination do not line up with the Catholic Tradition that he publicly represents and keep his opinions to himself until he has clarity.  Since Fr. Bourgeois has not chosen the humility route, but has broadcast his personal opinions in contravention of the teachings of the Church that he publicly represents, then he is entitled to stick by his personal opinions outside of the Church.  My question is why would anyone who disagrees with the Catholic Church’s teaching on any important issue want to maintain membership in the Church?  There are some 30,000 Christian denominations, each devoted to some heretical cause.  Pick a church, any church!  But at least have the courage to walk out your convictions rather than hubris of thinking that you are destined to remodel the Catholic Church.

Why oh why can’t Catholics, especially priests, just acknowledge that the Church is the sole authority, even if it may be wrong, which I don’t think so in this case. Jesus gave his backing to authoritative decisions when he said “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven”. I’m not sure if it’s pride, but I struggle to see that this is purely ignorance.

For canon lawyers: Does his expressed desire to meet with the pope constitute an appeal to the Holy Father?

Fr. Roy, please leave, Jesus does not need you.Do you think you are bigger than Jesus ? Think again.

It is very amusing to read the opinions of self-appointed experts on what God wants for the Church…especially coming from those who have rejected the Church.
I am not afraid to just come right to the crux of the matter: People just do not wake up one fine day as a heretic. Deep down, most authentic Catholics understand that people fall into some mortal sin first, then, the doubts about the Church’ Teaching Authority comes next. Usually, the big sin is sexual in nature…for example, they want to keep fornicating but the Church says it’s wrong, or they cheat on their spouse and want to marry their lover but mean ole Church want allow them….or they have sex and kill their baby, and the Church won’t tell them to feel good about their choice, or they want the Church to allow them their perversions, whether that be birth control or homosexuality»both oh which are designed by Satan to ruin the human sexuality He gave us and the priesthood.
So it goes on-fallen human nature-commit mortal sin, refuse to repent, and you’ll soon find yourself calling for all kinds of concessions on behalf of every sinner out there.

The whole purpose of introducing celibacy for priests was to gain control of the northern European monasteries (which were run by families) so that Rome could tax them. Before the emperor Constantine there were women priests. By the 13th century the reason for the preservation of celibacy was to preserve the entrenchment of a gay hierarchy and it has remained so ever since. The issue has nothing to do with spirituality, Christ, or the New Testament. The current pope is a medieval fascist.

“Faith without obedience is folly”
                                              sorry and sad,like it is with “Father” that many people live their
entire life without even knowing why they were created,who they are
and what their life calling is. “PLEASE” remember brothers and sisters
that the Piest stands in the person of Christ, in the fulfillment of his
ministry. can a woman take this Stand? “Father” do you really understand
the Priesthood… Look at the Cross

p.s. I have never met a Catholic who disagreed with just one
    Church teaching.            Jesus is Lord

When Jesus established His Church there were “priestess” in other faiths.
Jesus called twelve men to establish His Church. He did not call women, and if He did I believe His Holy Mother Mary would have been the first. Therefore, as Pope Benedict XVI says in Peter Seewald’s latest book, “Even if we wanted to ordain women we can’t.” There are many women, lay and religious, not ordained, who do great things within and for the Church.

I support the Magesterium of the Church! Is this priest bigger than the Church? Pride has entered into his thinking and it appears he cannot shake it. How sad!

May God’s Spirit be with him!

The Church wants to remain an “Old Boys Organization”.  Even though women have been emancipated, given voting rights, they are still second class citizens in the Church.

Sad indeed! What can you expect, however, of a priest that puts himself above the Church. These are difficult days for the Church. So many of her children have embraced the Spirit of Vatican II (what BXVI has called the hermeneutic of rupture). In the name of their poorly formed conscience they reject what the Church teaches, and create their own cafeteria church without officially leaving the Church. They think they know better than the Magisterium. They forget that Our Lord said to his disciples that those who listen to you listen to me and those who reject you reject me. May God grant him humility, and therefore, repentance.

“They are asking me to lie, by saying that I think God does not call women to the priesthood. I believe in my heart that he does.”  No, dear Father. Rome is not asking you to lie. Rome is asking you to admit the lie within your own “heart” that has mislead you into rebellion against Church teaching. Believing in your own heart that God calls women to the priesthood does not constitute divine truth. That comes from the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit. Surely you must understand that. Please reflect on this. Maybe a few months in a monastery to do just that will save your priesthood.

“God Bless this brave man for speaking the Truth! He is a true prophet. I wish we had more priests like him. Truly the Holy Spirit is alive within Fr. Bourgeois.”  Speaking truth?  A true prophet? Alive with the Holy Spirit? No, you are as deceived as he is. Holy Mother Church speaks the truth! True prophets are obedient to her, as to Christ! Another “spirit” is guiding both of you and it is not the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit does not lead people into error and rebellion against Church teaching. You do Fr. Bourgeois no favor by encouraging him to persist in his rebellion and to remain excommunicated. No favor at all.

Lisa Kaiser, what you’ve merely done is bait and switch.  You have not answered a single one of my theological points, and you take Scripture out of context.  God is the Truth, correct?  The Truth cannot contradict itself, and again, all revelation is already known.  The Truth is the Truth;  it does not change according to the times.  This does not in any way contradict Genesis and that Creation is ongoing—a red herring, by the way.  I also did not say that there is no room for change;  rather the question is what changes and why, and not change for the sake of change.  It is you who wishes to restrict God by assuming that mankind can change Truth whenever they fancy.  Indeed, wow.  You really want to restrict God, who cannot be restricted.

Over the centureis the RCc has changed, read history to follow how the RCC has changed.  A quick example: during the late 16th and early 17th centuries the RCC fought tooth and nail to keep scripture in Latin, to keep the Bilbe out of the hands of lay people and in only in the hands of the clergy. 

That’s not the same as changing the nature of the sacraments, which cannot be changed.  Which is what is really at issue here.  To ordain women priests is like saying that we can baptize our babies in Kool Aid.  Furthermore, those who were called heretics were those who were peddling inaccurate translations of the Bible in the wake of the printing press. 

Another example:  for 600 yrs the RCC tortured and murdered “heretics” and Jews who did not want to become Christian.  Thankfully, this is no longer the practice or teaching of the RCC.

No, the point of the Inquisition was to root out false conversions.  Also the Spanish Inquisition was more a function of state power.

Genesis reminds us that men and women are created int he image of God.  Paul reminds us that in Christ there is neither male nor female.

Again, I ask you:  are we truly in Christ now?  Prone as we are to sin, we turn away from conformity in Christ, so we most certainly are not truly in Christ so long as we sin.  Pray do not take St. Paul out of context.

The RCC must change or it will die.  The nedds of th RCs do not remain static, they are dynamic and ever changing.  One day the RCc will ordain women as priests.

Really.  It appears that change for the sake of change—and change to conform to secular demands is what is in danger of killing the Roman Catholic Church.  Take a look at all of the mainstream Protestant denominations that have conformed to secular demands.  They are shrinking.  Mainly because a church or religious community conformed to secularism no longer offers a viable alternative, and therefore becomes irrelevant.  A lot of Anglicans, in the wake of all this, are coming home to Rome, hence the Ordinariate.  While change is definitely good, it again depends on what changes, and why.  Ordaining women as priests makes no theological sense.

It is time for the laity to remind the hierarchy that the hieriarchy is accountable to God and to the laity.

Lisa Kaiser:  and who, pray, is the LAITY accountable to?  To God, and to the Magisterium, which is the servant of God.  It’s interesting that you hold the hierarchy accountable, but not the laity.  Both are accountable.

And besides, the laity does hold their priests and bishops accountable:  when it comes to scandal like the sex-abuse scandal, we want accountability, and also justice for the victims AND for our priests.  We demand that we don’t want our hierarchy to dumb down Church teaching—they’ve done it before, and the results have been a disaster.  Indeed, we can agree on one thing:  it’s time for a change.

I will pray for this priest, but he should be excommunicated.  Unfortunately in his pride he seems to think that what he believes “in his heart” is the Truth.  How much pride do you have to have to think that God has enlightened you vs the Church?

How cold someone can be and how one can kill their own conscience through habitual sin.  There is no way this priest came to this conclusion overnight - there is no way he can be in the dark so plainly overnight.  There must be a gradual process of continual rebellion and habitual sin that kills one’s conscience and thereby deprives the soul of God’s grace which enlightens and keeps one on the straight and narrow path of truth and holiness.  God cannot force him to seek the truth!  He obviously is attached to some pretty serious sinful behaviors in his life and WILL NOT OBEY the plea from his order and the Vatican!  Gee that sounds familiar?  I will not OBEY?  Lucifer is the first of God’s creation to have coined those words to his own eternal demise.  Let us pray for this poor misguided soul.  Maybe a situation similar to what happend to Saint Paul and many other will happen to him.  God will strike him in some way and suddenly he will be open to God’s Grace and thereby God’s truth!

Lisa Kaiser,

If you are not Catholic or Protestant how does this concern you?

The Question you should be asking is what is the priesthood?

The priesthood is linked to sacrifice. Women were never priests. The bloody work of killing the animal was always carried out by a male priest.

Abraham’s ancestors were ruler-priests, who married the daughters of other ruler priests. This continued among the Jews. The expectation was that out of the seed of woman would the Messiah come.

Mary’s father Jochaim was a priest.

In Christianity the priesthood is not genetic, but is linked to blood and sacrifice.

The Catholic Mass/Divine Liturgy is a sacrifice. An atonement for sin. Christ is both priest and victim. Christ offers the same sacrifice that he did on calvary to the Father in the liturgy, although in an unbloody manner.

In the book of Malachi we find that Gentiles would one day offer sacrifices to God all over the world, a clean oblation.

The priest is just a stand in or icon for Christ. The liturgy on earth takes part in the liturgy in heaven, in the company of the angels and saints and the one High Priest Jesus Christ.

All priests are just icons for the one high priest. A woman cannot stand in for Christ, offering the same sacrifice on calvary.

The problems lie with changes in the liturgy, you re-construct the liturgy, you re-construct the religion.

Hence, the reform of the liturgy is crucial at this point.

The tradition of celibacy also comes from the fact that priests abstained from relations with their wives, when they served in the temple. Our priests serve in the temple everyday. In Eastern churches there are married priests, but they abstain from relations with their wives for 24 hours before the divine liturgy.

Most Protestants do not have a sacrificial priesthood.

If you want to understand more, you can visit this blog. Prof. Alice C. Lindsey was a priest in the Episcopal church for over 20 years. She is now a lay woman in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/

I would also like to add that there were Bibles in the vernacular before the Reformation. Nobody could own a Bible before the invention of the printing press.

There were 33 million Christians in an empire of 60 million people by the middle of the fourth century, all without a single Bible. Hence the Bible was never meant to be the sole authority for Christians. The Apostolic churches predate the canon of scripture. A formal list was made in the 4th century and even after that the canon was in dispute until the council of Florence. This was a 100 years before the reformation.

You are confusing the difference between human faults and official church teachings. If you refuse to trust the teachings of the church, then you might as well not trust the Bible complied by them.

Lisa Kaiser,

The questions you should be asking is what is the priesthood? A pastor is not a priest.

The priesthood is linked to sacrifice. Women were never priests. The bloody work of killing the animal was always carried out by the male priest.

Abraham’s ancestors were ruler-priests who married the daughters of other ruler priests. This continued among the Jews. The expectation was that the Messiah would one day come from the seed of woman.

Mary’s father Joachim was a priest.

The Mass/Divine Liturgy, is a sacrifice, atonement for sin. Christ is both priest and victim. It’s Christ who offers the same sacrifice to the father that he did on calvary, only in un-bloody manner.

The liturgy on earth is a participation in the liturgy in heaven, in the company of the angels and saints.

The priest is the icon for Christ. A woman cannot offer the sacrifice of Christ.

If you want to learn more about this I would recommend reading Prof. Alice Linsley’s blog. She was a priest in the episcopal church. She is now a laywoman in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/

Some Protestants argue that since Christ, we do not need a priesthood, but this not historically how Christians saw this.

It was in Antioch, that we were first called Christians. The letters of Ignatius of Antioch document the existence of Bishop, priest and deacon in Apostolic churches. The Eucharist was also sacrifice and not just a meal.

The liturgy predates the creed by 69 years and the canon of the Bible by 350 years.

This confusion exists because of changes to the liturgy. You change the liturgy, you change the religion.

There were also 33 million Christians in an empire of 600 million by the middle of the fourth century. All without a single Bible. The Bible list was compiled in the 4th century and even after that it was in dispute until the council of florence. This was a 100 years before the reformation. There were also vernacular versions of scriptures since the church is both East and West.

The Apostolic churches pre-date the canon of scripture. The Bible was never designed to be the sole authority for Christians.

If you do not trust the Apostolic church. You might as well not trust the Bible it complied.

If you want know something about the active spirituality of Father Bourgeois defending the Catholic Church, watch this PBS documentary on him at
“Father Roy: Inside the School of Assassins” on Hulu.com
You will then ask yourself if he is a living saint.

Good for you Father Bourgoise, for being such a good man who has done so much good. It is time for you to recant and obey the teaching of our Holy Mother Church or here is the wide door…please leave fast and be a priesr in some other churches where they have good people, good women priests, and NO REAL PRESENT of Our Lord. Please hurry….

Seems to me the only one “calling” women to the priesthood today is satan himself. And look at all those who have jumped on his bandwagon. Just causes more division, dissent, confusion. Obedience? Forget about it! If you bring down the priesthood, then you eventually bring down the faithful and the Church; all destroyed from within.  Afterall, that’s his great plan.  He’s thrilled to take more souls to hell with him. The loss of faith, watered-down teachings and the compromises of bishops and priests today is stunning.  So many women today are just not happy with themselves, who they are or what they are doing.  They want to be like men.  It’s all about power and what “I want”.

Jesus has entrusted it s authentic interpretation only to the Magisterium of the Church.  Only through the attitude of humility and interior docility; remaining humble and attentive to the Church you will always keep within the truth of the word of Jesus.  Error is spread about especially by these poor priest who are seduced by Satan.  We need to continue to pray for these priests who cause division in the Church.

He has lost the Faith.  Jesus already made a declaration, “He who hears you (the Church) hears Me.  He does not believe in God and has placed himself in God’s place.  Such infinite poverty.  Someday, perhaps if we pray constantly, he may find himself in a fetal position on the floor of a confessional, begging for mercy.

I am praying for this priest so that he will turn to our Merciful Lord for light, conversion, healing, forgiveness, humility and peace. I pray that he begin thanking God for calling him to the holy Priesthood of Jesus, that he vowed fidelity to. I pray he will kneel before Jesus, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Light, and beg Jesus to touch his heart so deeply that he will not be able to resist this Loving Brother Jesus, Who embraced him, Father Bourgeois, as His own little brother. Let’s be humble and humble ourselves by OBEDIENCE to what Jesus has ordained and asks of us. I ask Mary, our Mother, who loves all Her priest sons, to hold Fr Bourgeois and sheld him from the Evil One who is trying to snatch his soul! So horrible this would be! But Jesus is more powerful than all evil. He is LORD of ALL! Jesus, have pity and mercy on us, poor weak proud sinners, show us your love and merciful forgiveness. Help guide Father Bourgeois back to health and wholeness and peace. I ask this in the name of Jesus, Amen

I am praying for Father Bourgeois that he humble himself and obey the Church founded by Jesus Himself. Who knows better us or Jesus? “He who hears you, hears Me.” Jesus wants us to be obedient, not stubborn in our own opinion, regardless how good our intentions. I am praying for Father Bourgeois to be touched and pierced through by the Heart of Jesus, who’s Priesthood in which he has been graced to share fully as ordained priest. We need good holy priests and we suffer if and when one of them rebels, where does that leave the rest of us, when that happens? Father Bourgeois, for the good of your soul, repent and come back to Jesus Who hangs on the cross for you and for me. We need you as a Roman Catholic Priest, and forget the nonsense of militant feminists who seem to not “give a damn” for your soul; please don’t give in to them! Go before Jesus and look Him in the EYE! His Heart is bleeding for you, and for me. I am praying hard for you to come back to Him. Grammy

Father Bourgeois is wrong,  in his stance.

There is,  in inspired Scripture,  a use of   the male gender as   a symbol for “God,”  “representative of God”  and “inspired by God.”

The female gender symbolizes us all — “mortal man.”

The male-only clergy merely   ratifies and is consistent with these types of inspired Scripture.

If God want to do things this way,  He is entitled to do so.

Father Bourgeois,  calm down and recant.  God needs you,  on Earth.

Peter J.  Dawson

Bye Bye…..too bad this priest has fallen so hard…..we need to pray that the scales will fall from his eyes before it is too late.

Some of the posters above, especially those who claim to be educated, before they start expounding on “Church History” would do well to read an actual book on Church history, rather than a Dan Brown novel or the presentations of black legends that are so popular on TV. Bashing the Catholic Church is the only PC discrimination left.

Lisa, if the fundamental, founding, and guiding principles of the Roman Catholic Church are inherently flawed then the Church should be replaced, not reformed. That is why I brought up Martin Luther.
The Roman Catholic Church is an autonomous organization with its own beliefs. If you agree with those beliefs you can join them, if you don’t agree, you can choose not to join. The Church doesn’t have to conform to what anyone says it should. If you disagree with what the Church stands for and you believe there is another way, then you should be trying to convince others to join your movement, not trying to tell Rome to herald your movement.

Father Bourgeois, is a good priest and man who has done many things to help others.  Saint Padre Pio was ordered not to say Holy Mass by the local Bishop and he obeyed.  Our Divine Blessed Savior, Jesus once said to Saint Faustina that obedience and being humble was pleasing to him.  I feel sorry for a good priest like Father Bourgeois who is even more susceptible to temptation, and pray that he becomes humble and obedient to his superiors.  There is a reason why Jesus chose twelve men to be his disciples and not women, and for thousands of years mankind have tried to pick and choose what they think the Catholic Church should be, but that was and still is the influence of the evil “false light” appeasing and soothing the human ego which is weak. Our Lord Jesus Christ,Loving, Gentle and Humble is The Sacred Heart of the Catholic Church.  May God Bless Father Bourgeois

The whole Maryknoll order is this way. Will Rome defrock the whole order?
Of course not. Pay no attention to that man (O excuse me. Person.) behind the curtian.

Oh, that we would have a nation of men and women who are able to stand for what they believe!  His father may be shedding tears but how proud he must be to have raised this man.

“To ordain women priests is like saying that we can baptize our babies in Kool Aid.”

Actually, I think any liquid will do - spit, or even Kool Aid, if it’s there, and it’s an emergency.  For an adult, that has understood the meaning of Baptism, the important thing is the WORDS be Trinitarian: “I baptize you in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” - is what’s important.  And anyone can baptize another person too, it need not be a priest.

With that said, it IS important that God’s instructions be followed for HIS Church.  This isn’t Rome’s church, or yours or my church.  It is Jesus’ Church and He bought it with a PRICE.

Lisa - the specific verses for MEN in ordained church ministry are found in Paul’s Pastoral Letters to Timothy and Titus.  Specifically, 1Timothy 3:1-5, and Titus Chapter One.  Another very important verse (the Vatican tweaks and twists out of shape, making the apostles sound as if they were almost perverts…) is 1Corinthians 9:5.

Any Catholic that BELIEVES the apostles abandoned their wives and their children FOR GOOD, has no idea what God says about marriage being a COVENANT and between one man and one woman, for life.  Only Rome would come up with the apostles being wife deserters and dead beat dads, and get this: they claim 1Corinthians 9:5 does NOT mean they took their wives with them on journeys.

Rome claims it means they took single women called “sister woman” with them, to do chores like their laundry.  Yeah- right.  Buy that, and you’ll buy anything.  Rome also claims IF they took their wives along, they did not have sex with them after the Resurrection.  Do you see why the Catholic Church REFUSES to teach the writings of St. Paul, in context?  See a pattern here folks?  Stay ignorant of the New Testament writings - except for the Gospels, and Rome has you under its thumb.

As for the husbands and wives not having sex: Rome also has a distorted view of the Old Testament book, the Song of Solomon (aka, the Song of Songs).  Little Jewish boys were KEPT from reading that book, until they were older, because it is about marriage and sex.

Rome has been able to fool Catholics since the Dark Ages, because Catholics refuse to 1) dust off their Bibles and read the contents and 2) THINK, THINK, THINK for themselves.  Just ask yourselves this one question, when reading the Bible: “What does it say?  Might this have a literal meaning, when read in CONTEXT?”

If only Catholics would start to think, and get their views from God’s Truth, and not just “Because Rome says so - and I let THEM think for me.” Our church will slowly become more healthy.

Matt,

There’s a difference between beliefs and actions. A priest can believe what he wants to, but he cannot go around teaching others that it’s Catholic theology, when it’s not. This is being dishonest.

Kevin McEneaney,

Nobody is questioning the goodness of this man, just his stance on the priesthood. This is an issue that affects the validity of the Eucharist and is hence important.

I am always surprised to hear American women claim that, because they cannot be priests, they are somehow in a “second class” category.  For in America, there are two clear classes of citizens: Those who can, and those who never can, be President of the United States.  That is right in the Constitution; no naturalized citizen can become President.  Yet to suggest to an American that there are second class American citizens because of this is to almost put one’s life in peril, so vehement is the denial that is forthcoming.

Yet American feminists hold that they are second class, somehow.  Well, they can’t be fathers, either, and I can’t be a mother.

The sad truth is that there is a profound failure to grasp the nature of God’s divine plan among feminists at a fundamental level.  Equality in that plan has nothing to do with the concept we apply to factors in equations in mathematics.  It has to do with the concepts we apply to notes in music.

Meantime, those attracted to the spirit of the age, always a much more accommodating spirit than the Spirit of Truth, concoct alternatives such as the one concerning equality to justify what they want.  And reasoning from these bad premises, they are doomed to end up in error.

Much prayer needed here, both for the enlightenment of those in trapped in erroneous darkness, and those who might be lured into the traps of disobedience it strews on the path of life.

Born Again Cradle Catholic,

It’s you who lacks an understanding of the church’s actual teachings. The Eastern churches in union with Rome have a married priesthood. They however have celibate Bishops. Apostolic tradition holds that married men can be ordained, but not unmarried ones. Protestants twist scripture and ordain un-married priests even though this unscriptural.

We fully agree that Marriage is a covenant. We do not dispute this.

Celibacy in the Latin church is a discipline, not a doctrine. It is a discipline that goes back to the earliest days of Christianity.

Jesus himself said some people are called to celibacy.

Matthew 19:10-12
...his disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” But he said to them, “Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”

1 Cor 7:6-9
...This I say by way of concession, not of command. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has a particular gift from God, one having one kind and another a different kind. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain unmarried as I am. But if they are not practicing self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.

1 Cor 7:24-35
...In whatever condition you were called, brothers and sisters, there remain with God. Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife… Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none,  but the married man is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please his wife,  and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin are anxious about the affairs of the Lord, so that they may be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please her husband. I say this for your own benefit, not to put any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and unhindered devotion to the Lord.

1 Cor 7:38-40
...So then, he who marries his fiancée does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better. A wife is bound as long as her husband lives. But if the husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, only in the Lord. But in my judgment she is more blessed if she remains as she is.

Just to clarify.  Apostolic tradition, ordains married men, but does not marry ordained priests, who are not married. This is found in the Eastern churches in union with Rome. Protestants twist scripture and marry ordained priests.

Mary Magdalen and Martha were present at the Eucharist. Christ appeared to them before anyone else. Mary Magdalen was his favorite diciple, although John, Peter, and Thomas also claimed that title of favorite. Mary, Martha, and the neo-platonic Thomas formed a faction that the other disciples tried to oust. The establishment of the church in France claims descent from Mary and Martha and later Denis. One of the remarkable things that the gospels attest to was the way Yeshua spoke to and treated women as equals; Paul, too. It is only the later forged epistles attributed to Paul that deningrate women. The first maryr for Yeshua was Stephen who believed in neither gentile nor Jew, church nor priest, but the gift of the spirit of Yeshua which he preached; Luke recorded the death of Stephen and the disciples banishment under pain of death as a victory: the presence of that same Holy Spirit in Acts when he invoked images from Homer’s Ilaid. The church is spirit not ossified customs—Yeshua constantly departed from what he considered outmoded customs, prejudice, and the ridiculous quality of vindictive law in their name. Yeshua would never kick old man into the street—he constantly defied and confounded the religious authorities of his day.

<“To ordain women priests is like saying that we can baptize our babies in Kool Aid.”
Actually, I think any liquid will do - spit, or even Kool Aid, if it’s there, and it’s an emergency.>

False.  It must be water, full stop.

To conclude that any liquid will serve is to substitute fantasy for thinking.  And to think with the Church, and her Magisterium, is much, much more work (and much, much more rewarding) than engaging in fantasy.

The possibility of women’s ordination and baptism by Kool-Aid are two fine examples of fantasy.  Unfortunately, as Fr. Bourgeois illustrates, not all fantasy is harmless.

Wow!  There’s a lot of discussion on this topic and that’s good.  My only comment is this.  Is it permissible to substitute orange juice for wine as the precious blood?  How about Oreo cookies for the wafer or whipped cream for baptism?  Why not?  Just as you cannot substitute the elements in the sacraments, neither can one substitute people.  Remember, a sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace.  The Church did not institute the sacraments and therefore the Church has no authority to make changes that Christ initiated.  One can do whatever but the end result is that is will not generate grace.  Make sense?

“They are asking me to lie, by saying that I think God does not call women to the priesthood. I believe in my heart that he does.”

They are asking him to ascent, in humility and obedience, to the Church’s teaching.  Isn’t that the point of religious priests (such as the Maryknoll order) vows?  Of course, every priest probably has some issue with some teaching, but they all must be willing to carry out the Church’s mission, not their own.  That is the job description.

I don’t know if he’s right or not about women’s ordination.  But I know he’s wrong for teaching his OWN Gospel.

Kevin McEneaney,

Christian Gnosticism was invented by Simon Magus, an Orthodox Christian, who came under the influence of esoteric sects.

It was at Antioch that we were first called Christians and the the letters of Ignatius of Antioch do not support your views.

Fr. Bourgeois has an option if he does not accept Church authority, resignation.  This is an honorable alternative. Especially if done quietly.

JD, your comment, “Non Catholics have no right to comment here, PERIOD!”

Is nasty and narrow-minded.  Fortunately, you do not get to decide who comments here.  this is an open forum for any reader of the Register.  So, I as a non-Catholic, will comment here, as much as I wish.

Chris C,

Thanks for your comments. There was all kinds of nonsense being taught in seminaries. Catholics want to have their cake and eat it too. They do not want to follow the religion, but they still want to be Catholic. It’s even more disgraceful when this is done by Bishops and Priests.

JD,  another way to resond to your comment, Non Catholics have no right to comment here, PERIOD!’ is this:

Pope John Paul II, was very clear that interfaith dialogue is a postive thing.  After he became pope, John Paul II’s the first papal audience was with a Jew—his boyhood friend Jerzy Kluger.  And Mr. Kluger became the Pope’s personal emmissary to Israel.  John Paul was also the first pope to visit a synagogue.  He called Jews the “elder brothers” of Christians.

In 2000, Rabbi Abbe’ Ingber of Hillel at the University of Cincinnati and priests from Xavier University, a Catholic college in Cincinnati came together to createA Blessing To One Antoerh: Pope John Paul II and the Jewish People.  Its a traveling exhibit of photos, videos and documents and artificats recording the contribution of John Paul II to relations between Catholics and Jews.

The exhibit travels around the US, due to local committees of Catholics and Jews working together.

In the 3 Abrahamic traditions, actions in tradition do affect the other 2.  so its right and proper that Jews, Christians, and Muslims continually talk to each other about internal and external issues of each tradition.

A parishioner once asked this question of a priest-friend of mine:  “Father, are you actually serious—that if a person doesn’t go to confession at all, he could go to Hell?”  Father John replied: “No, no…not at all.  Only if that person is Catholic.”  The point is that Father Bourgeois has mixed Social Justice with Magisterium and “following the rules.”  Imagine if battles were run as a few soldiers decided and not by the commanding officer!  Even Father’s last name implies part of the problem.
If he can’t recant…well, then—“toodle-oo”  What he seems to need is to spend some time “in the desert” and getting in touch with what the church he signed up to serve mandates.  It is not a democracy, in any case.  If the HOly Father gives him five minutes, I hope he does NOTHING but pray a Rosary for/with this guy. 
Some people just want it their way…
Give it up,Bourgeois! 
Somehow I always thought, as a female Catholic, that a woman’s role in Our Catholic Church to be an awesome one. If it about being of “service” then that is what we should do.  Religious sisters formed my thinking over twelve years of parochial education, during a time when they were all on the same page, so to speak. 
Sad sad—guess I’ll pray for Bourgeois to really receive the Holy Spirit!

Lisa Kaiser,

You can comment on issues, but you first have to know what they are all about. The priesthood has a certain function. If you disagree with this function, then you have a choice not to follow it. You cannot insist that other people abandon it, esp. since this is a very important issue that affects the validity of the Eucharist.

It is interesting to note that Father Roy was a Marine who was injured on the battlefield.  I would point out another Maryknoll priest, Vince Capodanno, who was “cut in half” ministering to his men on the same “blood stained fields”.  Semper Fi from a Navy Vietnam-era vet.

Nothing I said was gnostic, although the neo-Platonic philosophy of the apostle Thomas, whom Luke (my favorite gospel writer)viciously slandered, might be considered a proto-Gnostic, yet his gospel, discovered fairly recently in the Nag-Hammadi library texts, never became canononical and I wouldn’t argue that it should be in the canon, yet it is interesting for the primacy in theology it places for the female over the male as a centerpiece for the teachings of Yeshua. Gnosticism is often associated with certain atavistic elements of Mithraism, from which both baptism and Eucharist came from. John the Baptist was the first to bring Mythraic baptism into Judaism and Yeshua brought the Eucharist (the incarnation of God into the bread and wine, but being Jewish the milk was omitted). When Constantine merged the Roman state religion with Christianity and Mythraism, he created the orthodoxy of heresy and a punitive beauocracy which has not always done the work of the Holy Spirit—you may note the great number of Popes that Dante stuffs into his Inferno. I don’t think gender a legiyimate theological issue. When Yeshua told his disciples to eat together in his memory, this included his women disciples.

savvy
Ignatius of Antioch was the first known writer to employ the work catholic (universal) to describe Christians. The term the Christ (that is, the nickname of the Grrek god Dionysos who was the god of wine and drmatic reversal based upon unforseen justice) was applied to Yeshua while he was alive (and his Judaic followers were nicknamed Christians) for his unexpected moral reading of the Talmud and the fact that (he was not an ascetic like his teacher John but more of a hedonist) he drank wine.

Obedience is better than sacrifice! 1 Samuel 15:22
Sorry but the padre is wrong, he should recant
Jesus is the King of Holy Mother Church
We are the Body of Christ, and the Bride of Christ!
Priests act “in persona Christi” in the person of Christ when they celebrate the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist and Christ Gives Himself sacramentally to his Bride the Church
Priests are male because Christ is male, Its pretty simple
get it!
He makes the rules we obey, there is then peace
It is very dangerous and heretical to claim “personal infallibility”
The “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” is the Eucharist
Christ is the Bridegroom and the Church is His Bride, ergo the Priest must be male to represent Christ!
I think the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is entitled to be able to define what is Catholic doctrine
and Christ’s Prime Minister , Benedict XVI, is compelled to rule as head of the Church and speak from the Chair of Peter “ex cathedra” , part of the job description
It all makes wonderful sense.
Don’t claim to be Catholic if you do not believe catholic Doctrine and Dogma
The Catholic Church is not being “harsh” it is actually trying to lead you to salvation of your soul.
Not one iota of the law will pass away, the Law is perfectly fulfilled in Christ.
Sorry to break the news to the relativists, there is an Absolute Truth, that is the person of Jesus Christ our Great High Priest who died for our sins and then was Raised from the Dead by the Father
He appointed male priests to administer the Sacraments.
We should listen attentively to The Father’s Beloved Son!!! through the Holy Spirit we can receive the Power to do so. Pray for Wisdom.
Have a Blessed Pasch!

Savvy,

Just to clarify some things you talked about.  The Talmud did not exist at the time of Jesus.  I think you meant to refer to the Torah (the Books of Moses/the first 5 books of the Bible).  Jesus’ moral teaching come from the Torah.  He did not give the Torah “an unexpected moral reading”.  The Torah is all about morality, welcoming the stranger, taking care of those in need, loving God, the 10 commandnments are found in the Torah.  In Dt. we find the commandment to love God with our whole hearts and minds and souls What Jesus did do was make the moral teaching of the Torah fresh and alive for the Jews and others of his time and place.

Kevin,

The Encyclopedia Britannica says,

“There is little notice of the Persian god in the Roman world until the beginning of the 2nd century, but, from the year AD 136 onward, there are hundreds of dedicatory inscriptions to Mithra. This renewal of interest is not easily explained. The most plausible hypothesis seems to be that Roman Mithraism was practically a new creation, wrought by a religious genius who may have lived as late as c. AD 100 and who gave the old traditional Persian ceremonies a new Platonic interpretation that enabled Mithraism to become acceptable to the Roman world.”

http://www.britannica.com/oscar/print?articleId=53039&fullArticle=true&tocId=9053039

“And as a final word, it has been suggested from this that rather than Christianity borrowing from Mithraism, the borrowing may have been the reverse. However, others suppose that neither religion borrowed from the other, prefering the possibility that the similarities that do exist between Christianity and Mithraism may be explained as having their origins in the Greco-Oriental mindset of the time. Either hypothesis is prefered, Zeitgeist’s implication that Jesus was an imitation of Mithras is less supported then it supposes. One pagan researcher (not a Christian apologist) I’ve read on this subject concludes, “Did Christianity steal from Mithraism? Most definitely not.”

http://explanationblog.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/the-myth-of-jesus-a-refutation-of-the-zeitgeist-part-5/

There were no doctrines established at Nicea. Councils are called to defend them, not establish them.

“The Encyclopedia of the Orient says that the main purpose for the Council was the concern caused by the Heretic Arius who questioned the already Christian belief that Jesus was equal to God the father. He believed that Jesus was more than a man, but that he was created by God therefore making him inferior to the Father God, not quite human or divine.

Other than dealing with the deity of Jesus Christ, there were other less important issues that were dealt with such as the establishment of Easter and the prohibition of self castration. — None of these are “doctrines,” but rather side-issues.”

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/council_nicaea1.htm

The early church fathers/Apostolic fathers held these views on the priesthood centuries before Constantine.

Jewish water rituals were used to initiate converts into Orthodox Judaism. They pre-date John the Baptist.

Jewish Water Rituals:

Immersing in a ritual bath after menstruation, after birth, for conversion, or before a sacred occasion.

http://telshemesh.org/earth/the_four_elements_and_the_four_seasons.html

Bread and Wine were part of the Jewish passover meal.

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm

Temple Judaism did not have women priests.
” In the Jewish sense of the term, a priest (kohein) is a descendant of Aaron, charged with performing various rites in the Temple in connection with religious rituals and sacrifices. Although a kohein can be a rabbi, a rabbi is not required to be a kohein.”

The kohanim are the descendants of Aaron, chosen by G-d at the time of the incident with the Golden Calf to perform certain sacred work, particularly in connection with the animal sacrifices and the rituals related to the Temple. After the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim diminished significantly in favor of the rabbis; however, we continue to keep track of kohein lineage. DNA research supports their claims: a study published in Nature in June 1997 shows that self-identified kohanim in three countries have common elements in the Y-chromosome, indicating that they all have a common male ancestor. For more information about this and other recent genetic studies, see The Cohanim/DNA Connection at Aish.com.

http://www.jewfaq.org/rabbi.htm

Jesus said “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” Matt:15:7

Early Christianity was liturgical for 69 years, before there was a creed, and 350 years before the cannon of scripture.

Savvy,

I do know what the issues are about.  And again, I do not need your permission to comment here.  And yes, I am also free to “insist” that Catholics abandon the model of an all-male celibate priesthood. As Paul reminds Christians, in Christ there is neither male nor female.  In Genesis:  God created male and female in his image.  For Catholics, the eucharist is beyond the person who ministers it.

One more thing,  unleavened bread and wine are used at the eucharist because unleavened bread and wine were used by Jesus at the last Pesach he attended. During the 8 days of Pesach, Jews are to refrain from eating leavened bread. This is a commandment of the Torah.  And Jesus being a hedonist had nothing to do with is consuming wine—at least at Pesach.  Wine would have been the traditional thing to drink at Pesach during the time of Jesus.  When Jews come together all over the world next week to begin Pesach, each person will consume 4 glasses of wine at the first night seder and at the second night seder.

Kevin,

The Encyclopedia Britannica says,

“There is little notice of the Persian god in the Roman world until the beginning of the 2nd century, but, from the year AD 136 onward, there are hundreds of dedicatory inscriptions to Mithra. This renewal of interest is not easily explained. The most plausible hypothesis seems to be that Roman Mithraism was practically a new creation, wrought by a religious genius who may have lived as late as c. AD 100 and who gave the old traditional Persian ceremonies a new Platonic interpretation that enabled Mithraism to become acceptable to the Roman world.”

http://www.britannica.com/oscar/print?articleId=53039&fullArticle=true&tocId=9053039

“And as a final word, it has been suggested from this that rather than Christianity borrowing from Mithraism, the borrowing may have been the reverse. However, others suppose that neither religion borrowed from the other, prefering the possibility that the similarities that do exist between Christianity and Mithraism may be explained as having their origins in the Greco-Oriental mindset of the time. Either hypothesis is prefered, Zeitgeist’s implication that Jesus was an imitation of Mithras is less supported then it supposes. One pagan researcher (not a Christian apologist) I’ve read on this subject concludes, “Did Christianity steal from Mithraism? Most definitely not.”

http://explanationblog.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/the-myth-of-jesus-a-refutation-of-the-zeitgeist-part-5/

There were no doctrines established at Nicea. Councils are called to defend them, not establish them.

“The Encyclopedia of the Orient says that the main purpose for the Council was the concern caused by the Heretic Arius who questioned the already Christian belief that Jesus was equal to God the father. He believed that Jesus was more than a man, but that he was created by God therefore making him inferior to the Father God, not quite human or divine.

Other than dealing with the deity of Jesus Christ, there were other less important issues that were dealt with such as the establishment of Easter and the prohibition of self castration. — None of these are “doctrines,” but rather side-issues.”

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/council_nicaea1.htm

The early church fathers/Apostolic fathers held these views centuries before Constantine.

Jewish water rituals were used to initiate converts into Orthodox Judaism. They pre-date John the Baptist.

Jewish Water Rituals:

Immersing in a ritual bath after menstruation, after birth, for conversion, or before a sacred occasion.

http://telshemesh.org/earth/the_four_elements_and_the_four_seasons.html

Bread and Wine were part of the Jewish passover meal.

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm

Temple Judaism did not have women priests.

” In the Jewish sense of the term, a priest (kohein) is a descendant of Aaron, charged with performing various rites in the Temple in connection with religious rituals and sacrifices. Although a kohein can be a rabbi, a rabbi is not required to be a kohein.”

The kohanim are the descendants of Aaron, chosen by G-d at the time of the incident with the Golden Calf to perform certain sacred work, particularly in connection with the animal sacrifices and the rituals related to the Temple. After the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim diminished significantly in favor of the rabbis; however, we continue to keep track of kohein lineage. DNA research supports their claims: a study published in Nature in June 1997 shows that self-identified kohanim in three countries have common elements in the Y-chromosome, indicating that they all have a common male ancestor. For more information about this and other recent genetic studies, see The Cohanim/DNA Connection at Aish.com.

http://www.jewfaq.org/rabbi.htm

Jesus said “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” Matt:15:7

Early Christianity was liturgical for 69 years, before there was a creed, and 350 years before the cannon of scripture.

Kevin McEneaney,

“There is little notice of the Persian god in the Roman world until the beginning of the 2nd century, but, from the year AD 136 onward, there are hundreds of dedicatory inscriptions to Mithra. This renewal of interest is not easily explained. The most plausible hypothesis seems to be that Roman Mithraism was practically a new creation, wrought by a religious genius who may have lived as late as c. AD 100 and who gave the old traditional Persian ceremonies a new Platonic interpretation that enabled Mithraism to become acceptable to the Roman world.”

http://www.britannica.com/oscar/print?articleId=53039&fullArticle=true&tocId=9053039

“And as a final word, it has been suggested from this that rather than Christianity borrowing from Mithraism, the borrowing may have been the reverse.

http://explanationblog.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/the-myth-of-jesus-a-refutation-of-the-zeitgeist-part-5/

There were no doctrines established at Nicea. Councils are called to defend them, not establish them.

“The Encyclopedia of the Orient says that the main purpose for the Council was the concern caused by the Heretic Arius who questioned the already Christian belief that Jesus was equal to God the father. He believed that Jesus was more than a man, but that he was created by God therefore making him inferior to the Father God, not quite human or divine.

Other than dealing with the deity of Jesus Christ, there were other less important issues that were dealt with such as the establishment of Easter and the prohibition of self castration. — None of these are “doctrines,” but rather side-issues.”

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/council_nicaea1.htm

Kevin McEneaney,

Mithras rose to prominence in the 2nd century, so rather than Christianity borrowing from it, it must have been the reverse.

There were no doctrines established at Nicea. Councils are called to defend them, not establish them.

“The Encyclopedia of the Orient says that the main purpose for the Council was the concern caused by the Heretic Arius who questioned the already Christian belief that Jesus was equal to God the father. He believed that Jesus was more than a man, but that he was created by God therefore making him inferior to the Father God, not quite human or divine.

Other than dealing with the deity of Jesus Christ, there were other less important issues that were dealt with such as the establishment of Easter and the prohibition of self castration. — None of these are “doctrines,” but rather side-issues.”

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/council_nicaea1.htm

Savvy, you wrote: “The Eastern churches in union with Rome have a married priesthood. They however have celibate Bishops. Apostolic tradition holds that married men can be ordained, but not unmarried ones.”

The Eastern churches in union with Rome are wrong.  I have a friend from the Middle East (now in the US, because she is Catholic) and when she was 16, a celibate priest in his thirties, made a pass at her.  She thwarted his (attempted kiss) and while this woman is now in middle age, and married, the cleric is still in the priesthood = and a BISHOP.  Because, as you wrote, bishops must be celibate.  I wonder how many children the man fathered, outside of wedlock.

Where specifically does it COMMAND, INSTRUCT, and INSIST that men that want to be ordained to the priesthood, or be bishops, be SINGLE?  I’m looking for a COMMAND in God’s Word.  Not a suggestion.  The Matthew 19 verses you quote make an equally good case for castration for men that want to be priests.

And frankly, it would be very effective & it would be a real sacrifice.  Want to be a priest?  Then, chop, chop.  Who says so?  Matthew 19- men made eunachs by others, for the sake of the kingdom.

Keep going Fr Roy, you know you are rightplease be assured of my personal support !

Lisa K, you seem like an otherwise intelligent person, albeit misusing that God-given gift for a very liberal and also heretical view that only borrows from God’s teachings, but only to the extent to give your own personal ideas and agenda unearned legitimacy.

Simple question for you… Do you even know what Paul meant when he said “There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus”? 

Does it mean that we all have the same exact calling? 

Does it mean that God’s plan for each of us is exactly the same?

Does it mean that there is no physical distinction between people anymore, such that men can now bear children if they are in Christ… that no one should speak Greek, that no one is free? 

In reality, you’re really not as smart as you portray yourself to be.  But, you do have excessive pride you used to arrogantly push (and still pushes) God out of your way. 

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.  Perhaps you ought to learn that Scripture phrase.

“... think God does not call women to the priesthood. I believe in my heart that he does.”

This is a Catholic priest - denying the Holy Ghosts guidance of the magisterium for 2000 years. Pope after pope after council after council have confirmed : The Church can not do what Christ did not do/sanction in regards to the sacrament (Holy Orders)of the priesthood.

He is dilusional to “believe”/rationalize in his own mind (I’m fairly certain it’s not his heart that is misguiding him) that he knows better.

Pray for our priests - they are under a terrible assult during these times. Probably invalidy ordained - they have none of the graces needed to be “as another Christ”.

Throw the bum out.

Why do we humans insist on making God in our image—small and petty. Let God be God! God can call anyone to the priesthood. God is not limited to the pettiness of humans. The issue of women’s ordination is based on the desire by some men in the church to continue to hold on to power; there are priests and bisops, thank God, who have recognized the evil of injustice that results in the sin of sexism, and Fr. Roy is one of them. He is truly a disciple of Jesus who came to teach us about our wonderful inclusive God. Jesus was frustrated by his Apostles who did not understand what he was trying to teach them—imagine Jesus’ frustration today with those who call themselves his followers! Jesus was killed because he spoke the truth to the powers of his day; I am grateful to Fr. Roy for speaking to the powers of our day.

He should have been put in his place years ago.  Weak, cowardly, effeminate Bishops have caused these internal rebels to become emboldened.  Benedictine sister Joan Chittister of Erie, Pa. is another prime example.  Her & her ilk are planning a schismatic convention in Detroit in June 2011.  The Vatican must step forward & quiet these heretics !

And your contributions to the Maryknoll Society will provide for his financial support…

Hubris to the max. His father weeps.  So does his Father.

“What is a well-formed conscience meant to be founded on?  Nothing less than the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”
The Way the Truth and the Life is not a definition of the church but of Jesus.  Jesus is the one we try to follow and if we really look at the Jesus of the gospels he had wonderful women friends and we have even called Mary Magdeline the Apostle to the apostles.  In the early church women were certainly deacons and leaders of their church community.
But the real question here is whether our conscience should take precedence over obedience to those in more senior positions in the church.  I have great admiration of Fr Bourgoise and do wish that many of the other priests who touch their forelock to their “betters” for whatever reason, would try to live with the same sense of integrity.  We as human beings were given the wonderful gift of minds capable of examining the truths of the world around us and once we surrender that responsibility we are not embracing our humanity to the full.  Human beings are made to ask why.
In his time Jesus did not accept without question the religious rules and regulations about Sabbath toil or with whom he should eat and drink.  We too are made in the image of God and if we are trying to live lives that reflect this then the prayers of those in authority should not be for Fr Bourgoise and others like him to toe the line but for each of these leaders to try to understand why he feels his integrity would be compromised. 
Those in power in the church have not always listened to the God of our fathers and it has taken others like St Teresa of Avila to tell the popes where they were failing.  Would those in power today listen to another St Teresa?  Would they recognise her saintly character?  Would they realise that she was the one who was really listening to the voice of God?

The Roman Catholic Church has become a house divided, to which the above comments testify.  And a house divided cannot stand, and will not stand.  It’s a matter of time . . .

“Does his expressed desire to meet with the pope constitute an appeal to the Holy Father?” I suppose it does, in a general sense. But, since there has been no penalty imposed yet, there is nothing to “appeal.” Such an appeal to the Pope, in any case, is outside the normal procedure.

Michael K,  yes, i do know what St. Paul meant.  and of course you are stting up the rhetorical straw man arguement in your comments.  One’s “plumbing” has nothing to do with being one in Christ.  Using “plumbing” as a criteria for priesthood is just beyond bizarre.  The RCC stands in the way of God/Holy Spirit who without regard to “plumbing” freely gives of God’s gifts.

The RCC is the loser in its refusal to allow the Holy Spirit to work in the world by ordaining women to the priesthood.  History will prove Fr. Roy was right in his stand.

Also your comments have strayed into rudeness.  So interesting that you call yourself a a good Catholic, but are fell so free to put out hateful personal comments.

The next time I need an illustration of the inherent and vicious misogyny in religious patriarchy, I’m going to invite them to read this thread.  I’m very serious.

“The Roman Catholic Church has become a house divided, to which the above comments testify.  And a house divided cannot stand, and will not stand.  It’s a matter of time . .. “

This is a classic case of mistaking a small issue in a small corner of the Church as representative of what’s happening in the Church as a whole.

North Americans need a boot in the derriere for their arrogance.  In Canada and the US, they are quick to look at what occurs in the Church and conclude that it is representative of the whole Church.  The US Church, for instance,  is barely over 5% of the Catholic world, and it is not at all a representative sample of it.  The enemies of the Church display wishful thinking in extrapolating to the other 95% of the Church from these instances. And North American Catholics err when they claim their own issues define the state of the Church as a whole.

Of course they are of concern, and need to be addressed.  But to claim them as some kind of indicative snapshot of the Church as a whole is utter folly.

Lisa Kaiser,

Paul refers to Baptism, not to ordination.  In the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, It’s Christ who acts through the priest, transforming the priest into another Altus Christi or Another Christ. There is only one Priest. Jesus Christ. All Priests are icons of the one priest. It’s Christ who offers the sacrifice to the father.

  A woman cannot offer the sacrifice of Christ.  Just as we cannot put up a picture of Paul and call it the Virgin Mary.

A sacrament needs valid form, matter and intention. Changing any one of these would change the sacrament or render it invalid.

The Eucharist for us, is not just a symbol, but changes in substance to the body, blood and divinity of Jesus Christ, through the actions of Christ himself, who works through the priest.

I do not think you would want me telling your local synagogue what to do. In the same way, you should stay out of our internal affairs.

Born Again Cradle Catholic,

Protestants ministers who are married cheat and have affairs.  Hence, making the argument that only celibate priests cheat is out of the question.  In the Eastern churches a married priest who leaves his wife can be excommunicated. Protestants ministers are free to leave their wives and re-marry.

1 Tim. 3: 2, 12 and Titus 1: 6 that a bishop or a deacon should be “the husband of one wife.” A careful read of these passages points to Paul’s concern about re-married priests. It does not say that priest have to be married.

It says married men can be ordained, but cannot be married twice.

Bishops, in the Eastern churches are chosen from among the Monastics, who are already celibate.

Some people chose monastic forms of spirituality. It is unfair to force them all into clap-clap worship.

There can be different forms of living out the faith.

In Matt 19, Jesus talks about voluntary celibacy. The Lord’s teaching is that celibacy is a state of eschatological beatitude, that there is no marriage in heaven. If celibacy is undertaken, it must be assumed freely for the sake of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 19.12, 19).

You should know that celibacy is voluntarily chosen in the Latin church. Nobody is forced to become a priest.

I fully agree that people should not take vows they disagree with.

Like Chris, said if people disagree they are free to leave, but they cannot destroy us from within.

Thank you, Lisa!  But re: the synagogue…There are liberal Jews, too.  As you well know, orthodox, reform, Conservative, JesusJews and so forth…
I wish some Catholics would stay out of internal affairs unless they are following CATHOLICISM and not treating our faith like a cafeteria.  Try telling Mormons or Lutherans or Baptists what you think is okay to do in THEIR faith discipline.  Geee!

Actually, all—I am finding that this forum is kind of a nasty place for most of us.  I see some are arrogant and prideful Catholics; others seek excuses for being lapsed; yet others are faux-theologians.  I think I’m opting out of this…after I wait, with not so baited breath, to see what the Bourgeois Boy Wonder “decides.”  Oh, the DRAMA! Bleh!  Get over yourself, Roy!  You are ending your “15 minutes of fame” and that is a very good thing.  Wait, maybe he can join the Charlie Sheen Tour and continue his public meltdown.  The sympathy ship not only sailed..it didn’t even come into port.

“The Roman Catholic Church has become a house divided, to which the above comments testify.  And a house divided cannot stand, and will not stand.  It’s a matter of time . .. “
Whoever used this quote here, should know better…After giving Peter the “keys” He said: And the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it (the Church).”
Christ, the High Priest and the Holy Mother Church will last to eternity.

Mona Shaw,

A sacrament is not a right.  This is not about rights. A woman did not die on the Cross. The Mass is a sacrifice, atonement for sin, where Christ becomes sacrifice once again, acting through the priest, and acts through the sacraments.

A woman priest would reverse this and turn women into sacrificial lambs. The whole point of the women’s movement was to elevate women above the status of servitude to men.

Now, these same women want to dress and act like sacrificial lambs and servants?

Mary, our mother is sinless, but she was not called to die for sin.

Yes, I understand that our priests have let us down, which is why it’s important for them to reclaim their proper roles.

It is important for the authentic faith to be taught.

Savvy,

Your comment, “I do not think you would want me telling your local synagogue what to do. In the same way, you should stay out of our internal affairs.” is hardly keeping with the spirit of Nostra Aetate or of Pope John Paul II, who very much reached out to Jews.  His very first audience as Pope was with a Jew, his boyhood friend Jerzy Kruger.  He was the first pope to visit a synagogue. He apologized for the RCC’s historical sins against the Jews.

Our rabbi emeritus who lives in Jerusalem came back to visit us in Phoenix recently.  He told of us of a recent gathering of Catholic, other Christian, Muslim and Jewish scholars at the Hartman Institute in Jerusalem.  One Catholic scholar, James Carroll, stood up to deliver his speech and ended by saying to the gathered scholars of the Abrahamic traditions, that the RCC could not do its work without the input from the other traditions.  We are all descendants of Abraham.  What happens in one tradtion affects the others.  So if you want to comment on what is happening at my local synagogue, please feel free. Just as I will feeel free to continue to comment here.

Yes, paul was talking about bpatism. If Catholics are all one in Christ through baptism, then certainly all Catholics are free to be called by the Holy Spirit to the priesthood—men, women, married me, married women.  All are one in Christ through baptism.  Because there is neither male nor female—just Catholics.

And of course the RCC has a very narrow view of who is an apostle.  The RCC very conveniently reads scripture to minimize the major roles women had in the ministry of Jesus while he lived.  We need to take off our blinders. our centuries of cultural overlay and see what the scriptures truly say about women. All translations of scripture need to honestly translate the Greek of the NT to accurately reflect what the authors of the NT were saying about women.

Gerry Hunter, you are right—the Catholics of North America do represent but a small minority of the world’s Catholics. However, the West’s traditions and philosophy are what are dominant in the RCC today & for the foreseeable future. One would have to go back to the very early history of the RCC to find a pope who was not a European.  The wealth of the West, and the historical dominance of the West in the papacy and college of cardinals, make the population numbers less relevant, at least for now. Perhaps at the next conclave, a cardinal from the East or from the Third World will be elected pope. Then perhaps we will see a shift of emphasis.

Savvy - you should consider changing your blog name.  You’re not savvy about Christianity, based on your posts in this blog.  Perhaps you could call yourself, “Savvy Catholic” instead?  It’s more truth in advertising.

You wrote, “Born Again Cradle Catholic, Protestants ministers who are married cheat and have affairs.  Hence, making the argument that only celibate priests cheat is out of the question.”

Cradle’s reply-
A Protestant minister is NOT seen by his congregation as being “altar Cristi”, {other Christ}, and his presence is necessary to “bring us Jesus” in the Eucharist, as a priest is seen by Catholics.  No priest?  No Eucharist.  That does not happen in a Protestant church.

Unlike a Roman Catholic priest, if a Protestant minister had one foot on the altar and his other foot in a woman’s bed, he would not be seen by his supporters as: “naive, immature, coerced by some kind of savvy woman that trapped him by her feminine wiles.”

A Protestant minister would be punished, immediately removed from his role as pastor.  An elder board would make the decision to 1) rehabilitate him, and if the pastor were married, 2) to restore his marriage.  Marriage is a COVENANT and intended for life, it’s not a throw-away, or “annulled” like for we Catholics.

A Protestant minister would not be supported by his diocese, financially and emotionally, and at ANY cost—even if he molested a CHILD, or if he were homosexual and coerced another MAN into sex with him.  There would be a price to pay.

Note: I know of a well-known, married Protestant minister who DID cheat on his wife.  He was not “outed” as are most priests.  Rather, he came forward himself.  What I described above, happened:

1) The pastor wrote a letter to his congregation, and he resigned.  2) The elder board took action by surrounding the pastor and his wife with Christian counsel, and the wife was willing to restore their 30 year marriage, and 3) the church got over it, the congregation is stronger, and the marriage remained intact.

The pastor had a HUGE price to pay - he was not allowed to pastor that parish anymore.  And he had been very, very popular.  But it’s obvious that he had NO ACCOUNTABILITY, NO SUPPORT GROUP, or he’d have had boundaries in place, so he could have avoided his fall.

His wife is a ROLE MODEL for other women, whose husbands have also fallen into temptation.  Life is messy.  The best marriage is made up of two forgivers.

Now this man was NOT a child molester or a homosexual.  But there was something inappropriate with another woman- it could have even been an emotional affair.  Who knows.  Everyone handled it well.  Unlike the Catholic church that has, up to now, swept things under the carpet, and blamed the victims, even if they’re children. 

Whereas, in the Roman Catholic church, until just recently, almost NO BAD behavior gets a priest punished by a diocese, OR a congregation.  Only just recently, have some clergymen (the famous ones) been punished.  To even talk about it “brings scandal” to the Church.

There is to be NO SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE for anyone.  None.  Let priests marry.  Allow women to have their proper role in the church: as the wife of a priest.

By the way, it’s one wife, at a time.  If a married priest’s wife were to die, he would be allowed to re-marry.  That’s a no-brainer.  To be the husband of one wife if to be a “one-woman man”- so he is not to be involved with any other, while he is married.  No bigamists.  No men with roving eyes.  Catholics - you really need to get more savvy in the Christian faith.  Think a little.  Please.

Lisa,

Yes, we are equal in Christ. But that does not mean we have to stop being male and female.

A woman did not die on the cross.  As a Jew, you do not believe in the atoning death of Jesus Christ for sin, and that of it being made present at every Mass/Divine Liturgy. Unless, you are a Jew for Jesus , I don’t see how this concerns you.

Yes, there are roles for women in ministry. But, not priesthood. Jesus did not ordain women to the priesthood. Ministry is not priesthood. My Youth minister is a woman. I, myself am a lay minister of Holy Communion, but not a priest.

The priest standing at the altar is an icon of Jesus Christ. As the priest is an icon of Jesus Christ, it is essential that the one standing at the altar have the male form.

In the Byzantine rite, the priest actually takes a spear and plunges it into the side of Christ. This put bluntly means it’s the priest who offers the sacrifice on the altar.

Christ is both priest and victim.

To say that Christ might as well be female, to reject the reality of matter. This is the age of Gnostic heresy, that claimed that Jesus just appeared to be human, because matter is not real.

Just another old priest close to retirement who came through filled with the poltergiest of Vatican II and completely rejects the Catholic faith but nevertheless has been happy to free off the Church. Now he is close to retirement after representing something he doesn’t believe in for all these years and so he lacks fulfilment and wants to get fulfilment by attention seeking like this.

It is no secret that the Catholic belief is that there is an infallible interpretation that women can’t be priests. This guy rejects that and thus rejects the rock of the Church for purporting to speak with authority. He rejects scripture and he rejects Jesus.

Why didn’t he just do the honest thing and admit he is a protestant or is he like so many Vatican II renegades that don’t even have a Christian faith at all?

Why wait?  Google Universal Life Church and get a free, instant, online ordination.

Savvy,

It seems that the RCC (and you) are really hung up about a person’s “plumbing”.  What is important is that we are all human beings.  As Genesis reminds us, men and women are created in the image of God.  As Paul reminds us, in Christ there is netiher male nor femaile. We all ahve God-given intelligence and gifts that God call us to use.  To just say that the only thing that counts is that women cannot be priests because of their genitals is to ignore that God can and does call a variety of human beings to serve in may ways, including in the priesthood of the RCC.  God created women in the divine image, women have souls—therefore women can and should be RC priests, rabbis, ministers, etc.

You keep saying this does not concern me. That is a very narrow vision.  All humans are connected, and those of us of the Abrahmaic traditions are connected even more so. For the better part of 50 yrs I was a RC (16 yrs of RC education, including a BA in RC theology from an RC college).  God has called me to a new path at this stage in my life and I follow that path.

Again your attitude is compleltely opposite of that of Nostra Aetate and of Pope John Paul II—who embraced Jews and who embraced interfaith dialogue.  Again, all of us of the Abrahamic traditions are linked.  What one tradition does affects the other two.

Born Again Cradle Catholic,

There are a lot of factors here that you do not understand. There was a lot of nonsense being taught in seminaries, that resulted in these things to begin with. I do think am aware better than you of these things taking place and why.

This was a letter written by seminarian’s studying at Maynooth in Ireland.

“The heretical teaching about the Eucharist, the total blurring of priesthood of the priest and of the laity, blatant homosexuality, angry feminist nuns teaching and running our lives, the relentless mix of non-seminary students, the absurd excuse for worship, the risible spiritual direction, the breezily malevolent evaluations, the defense of abortion and the all-pervading incompetence.”

http://lxoa.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/ms.pdf

“The proof of authenticity on the humanistic psychology model is to go against what you were trained to be, to call all of that phoniness, and to say what is deepest within you. What’s deepest within you, however, are certain unrequited longings, including sexual longings. We provoked an epidemic of sexual misconduct among clergy and therapists.”

http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar74.htm

We promote a return back to Orthodoxy, starting with the reform of the liturgy.

We are fully thinking and fully aware of what’s going on.

Lisa,

The plumbing here is important. The life-giving work of the woman is superior to the life taking work of the priest. The priest gives an accounting to God, for sins and for blood shed, making present the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary.

The distinction between life-giving blood and life-taking blood needs to be made.

How can a woman act in the person of Christ, making his sacrifice on calvary present. given that it’s an act that accounts for blood shed. Life taking blood.?

The Mass is the same as the sacrifice on Calvary, being poured out for the sins of the world.

Do you understand?

The priesthood is linked to the atoning blood of Christ. Christ is both priest and victim.

Born Again Cradle Catholic,

“A Protestant minister would not be supported by his diocese, financially and emotionally, and at ANY cost—even if he molested a CHILD, or if he were homosexual and coerced another MAN into sex with him.  There would be a price to pay.”

There are many Protestant churches that have openly gay ministers and have lifted the ban on gay sex. They are not being asked to pay a price. There are churches that even sanction gay marriage.

There has also been abuse swept under the carpet.

Take a look at this.

Stop Baptist Predators: Shining the Light on Clergy sex abuse.

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm

Why are these married clergy doing the same things?

“If a married priest’s wife were to die, he would be allowed to re-marry.  That’s a no-brainer.  To be the husband of one wife if to be a “one-woman man”- so he is not to be involved with any other, while he is married.  No bigamists. “

Paul does not refer to bigamy, but to a second marriage. This was understood by the early church.

Savvy,

The plumbing is completely unimportant.  Your blood argument holds no water—so to speak and is certainly not theologically correct.  Human beings are human beings.  Again, Genesis makes no distinction—men and women are created in the image of God.

There is no reason, aside from the stubborness of the hierarchy, not to ordain women.

Two thoughts. The denominations that now ordain woman as ministers and bishops have become sinking ships.  They’re losing members by the tens of thousands each year.  Could there be a dynamic here that we don’t understand, but that Jesus did/does?  Also, what about women hearing confessions?  The guys I know can’t remember half of yesterday’s conversation, while the women I know remember every excruciating little detail.  Who do you want hearing your confession?

Graymatter - you are 100% correct.  Two EXCELLENT points.  There is also a book that was published several years ago by the title, “Passive Men - Wild Women”  Women are not meant to *lead* men. The Bible indicates that.

The majority of these comments are mean-spirited, judgemental and arrogant. How far away from the teachings of Christ can we go? Jesus is about love and compassion, and so is Roy Bourgeois. He has dedicated his life to serving the poor and oppressed, has fought for human rights and made extraordinary sacrifices. Let’s ask ourselves, “Would Jesus recant?”

Graymatter,

You don’t want women hearing confession, because we remember things???  someehow,that really does not ring true a sa legitimate reason to deny women ordaination tot he RC priesthood.  As for demoninatiosn with women losing members—wow, you have not been keeping up with the news.  The RCC is losing members in droves throughout the world.

In my temple, the largest Refrom congregation in Phoenix, with 3 rabbis (2 of whom are women), 2 cantors (1 man, 1 woman) one male rabbi who has an informal affiliation with us, and one retired male rabbi who lives in Jerusalem and comes back to visit, the chairs are filled in the large sanctuary in Friday evening and filled again in both the large and small sanctuary on Saturday morning.

Each of these wonderful women brings her own engery to the bimah (pulpit) and both enjoy the unconditional support of the the entire large congregation.  Of course we have the luxury of hiring our rabbis—of deciding who is the right spiritual fit for us. We also have many guest rabbis (scholars in residence)—so men, some women.  So like most the religious and secular world, we have moved out of the cave man era and we know that women, like men, can and do possess terrific leadership skills and bring deep and meaningufl spirituality to our worhsip.

And hopefully, no will bash this comment because it comes from a Jew.  Remember, Jesus, Mary and Jsoeph were all observant Jews.

Lisa,

Men and women are equal in the eyes of God. But, represent this in different ways.

Men are not fighting to be nuns.

These women are deluded into fighting to be priests.

I don’t see how the work of atoning for sin and death is greater than being married to Jesus Christ.

Anne…come on “would Jesus recant?”  Father B states plainly “I think and I believe in my heart”...please…this is about this man and his views.  We are reminded often in the bible that Jesus obeyed His heavenly Father, prayed to His Father.  This is ultimately not about women’s ordination or if God wants women priests, this is about a priest who wants to do it his way.  He will be able to do that freely when he is laicized.

@Lisa Kaiser
The information on Jewish religious hierarchy was insightful per your Reformed Temple (equivalent to Unitarian Universal Church (more of a group) in liberalism and more perfunctory in nature) , however we have closer alignment with those of the Orthodox Judaic Temple. The Catholic Church is very accommodating to women’s roles in ministries and lay programs but we stand with tradition and the decision made by Jesus Christ when establishing his Church.  Women are not ordained in the Catholic Church as priest (not licitly) , and have not been for over 2000 years.  But in a sense we must go further back to see the covenant bond that was established right at the beginning, and the male/female imagery and nuptial meaning that goes right through salvation history. The Church is Bride of Christ and the Priest acts Persona Christi as the Bridegroom to fulfill the our covenant. There is no other way, Jesus had every opportunity to include his Jewish Mother Mary and or Mary Magdalene or follow suit of the many pagan appointment of priestess of the time.  He chose 12 apostles with a ‘Y’ chromosome to fulfill the hierarchy of his Church.
I am a cradle Catholic, mother, wife, highly educated, professional and confident women untouched (Praise the Lord) by the misguided militant feminists.  The creeping and sinister advances made in the name of equality have actually lowered women to a new level. (culture of death)  Women and Men are different, praise God, and for good reason.  I am better at some things then my husband and vice-versa.  Should my husband lament he cannot give birth to a child, no we are all made in God’s image but with different roles. Should I lament I cannot be a priest - NO!
In closings, I too am saddened by the departure of many Catholics from our Church, however if they are lukewarm in the faith, they only stand to weaken our Church. We have been experiencing an exodus of people for 2000 years, all to become their own ‘Church’ with their own rules, we follow the laws of God and those established by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  That is why you can find over 33,000 protestant denominations - The Great Splintering of the PROTESTANTS and how they cannot even get along.
I also would never assume to go onto a Jewish blog and condemn the teachings of Judaic Laws.
Peace
Roisin

Savvy,

There is amale equivalent to nun.  They are called brothers—male religious, who are not priests.

Lots of changes happned in the world because someone said someone else was delusional.  Joan of Arc and Francis of Assissi come to mind.  The abolition of slavery in this country, the realization of the dream of Martin Luther King, Jr in this country. The American revolution, the French revolution.  The US Supreme Court, for 2 centruies a complete WASP bastion is now composed of only Jews and Catholics—something unthinkable as recently as 30 yrs ago. The founding of a number of RC religious orders came only after struggle to be accpeted.

So you say women are delusional to think the RCC will someday ordain women—well if history is anything to go by, then women will be priests!

Lisa, Shalom!
As we both approach our sacred Holy Days, let me thank you for the great light you bring to this forum.  In fact, this is NOT about the priest and his personal breaking of his OWN vows, his OWN commitment.  He is upset because he is no longer “in sync” with the vows he took.  Many people in the 70s got SO swept up in Social Justice which can be generally a good thing.  However, when you are a priest, just like the “Hebrew National’ slogan you ‘answer to a higher power.”  In fact, there are many Jewish friends of mine in the ADL who are very conservative and a lot of orthodoxy is returning to many others.  I would like to share this with you…
I could not possibly be a good Catholic were it not for Judaism.  That is the root and genesis of all of my Catholic identity.  Also, in my entire life (cradle Catholic), I was NEVER taught that Jews killed Jesus.  MY FAITH TEACHES that JESUS DIED FOR AND BECAUSE OF HUMANKIND’S SINS.  I was born in an Italian and Jewish neighborhood.  My mother used to bake the best blintzes on earth.  As a Catholic back in the 50s and 60s, we were not allowed to attend the YMCA because they had “bible study.”  So, the only kids’ club for me was the Bernard Horwich Jewish Youth Center.  (Close to home, all my pals, etc.)  I got confirmed, my best friend Sharon was Bat Mitzvahed.  Life was good.  I later became the cateress at a local hotel…the only hotel on the North Shore that boasted a “kosher kitchen.”  My uncle was a priest in Northern Italy.  His name is inscribed in the National Holocaust Memorial in D.C. as a righteous gentile.  (He spent 22 months in the “camps”, freed from Mathausen in May of 1945.  His crime was hiding Jews and allied troops.  He was also a partisan.  He had people hidden all over the countryside of the northern Italian mountain region (Modena, Bologna, etc). 
Why am I telling you all of this?  Well, I want you to know that were I not Catholic (accepting Jesus as the Messiah), I would most likely be Jewish.  Your faith holds God promise to the Jewish people that they are the
chosen people.  That is a HUGE honor…but like all huge honors, it comes with huge responsibilities.  God never breaks a promise.  He hears all of us, even good ol’ Roy Bourgeois…and He answers us often in silence.
Were I with you in your home at the Pesach, we would pray and eat bitter herbs, and toast with wine on this night different from all the others.  And on your Pesach, I would recall Jesus’s Pesach with HIS friends. This indescribable significance spans time.  This priest, Roy Bourgeois, is engaging in something that is also contrary to an old Jewish belief involving rituals, and observances.  It is, as I am sure you know, referred to as “building a wall around Torah.”  This means that the ancient rites, candles, chants, atonement, celebration and all of their respective trappings, symbolisms, etc are a vital part of the essence of “jewish-ness.”  Once you begin to chip away at this and that, and then a bit of this and that, well—you no longer have Judaism, but rather sort of “jewish-like-soup.”  The priest, assuming he had a TRUE vocation, is “breaking down” the wall around a dogma that he has PROMISED to not violate.  Thus, it is not that theCatholic Church excommunicates him, but that he has willfully chosen to excommunicate himself.  Imagine that tomorrow you go to temple and tell the Rabbis,cantors, etc. that you are STILL a Jew, but you want to pray the Rosary and go to Mass.  YO!  That is NOT Jewishness or Judaism or anything like that.  It is a distortion.  At least, I say I respect the various leaders of the Protestant denominations.  After all, there was something they had a gripe or a grind about and so they just split and started their own gig:  Martin Luther, John Wesley, Joseph Smith, and so forth.  But to insist that you remain in good standing as a Catholic priest, when you don’t want to follow the faith is simply, let me say, not kosherAnd for the record, Catholicism does not follow only scripture.  In fact, my faith is based upon three things:  Jesus Christ (first); Scripture and Tradition.  Protestantism is based solely on scripture and is self-intrpreted (usually).  I am closing this lengthy post with a request that you “always remember” and stay close to your faith—the faith that it IS and not one that you want to change it to be…Lastly, .  In God’s Peace, I wish you a beautiful Passover!

Also,

Savvy, priest , like nuns and brother wear wedding rings.  Thye are also married in Christ.

Graymatter, how do your know your male confessor does not remember what you confess?  If you are so concerned about hyour confessor remembering your confession, perhaps, its not the confessor that is the real issue—perhaps its what your confessing!

Now you think women cannot be priest because they have good memories!!! Boy, you all are really grasping at straws!!!

Lisa,

The brothers are not married to Christ. They are married to the church.

You are confusing this issue, which is sacramental, with rights.

Nobody has a right be ordained a priest.

There are many roles for women in ministry.

Ordaining women to be deacons, has not been ruled out and is still being discussed, but the priesthood has been declared impossible.

A priest atones for sin and death. The Mass is a sacrifice, that atones for sins committed.

It makes present the same sacrifice on Calvary, so it’s the sacrifice of Christ.

It’s Christ who acts as both priest and victim.

Now, if you ask me why can’t a woman do this. This because, the life-atoning work of the priest, is in direct opposition to the life giving work of the woman.

Women represent God who gives life, priests represent God, who atones for life-taken.

Fr. John A, Hardon said

“It is impossible to exaggerate this identification. The Catholic Church exists mainly that the Sacrifice of the Mass may continue to be offered from thousands of altars every day, even until the end of time. True, Jesus died only once physically. But every time that Mass is offered, He is ready and willing to die and offer His life for the salvation of the world.”

To Savvy- You wrote, “Posted by savvy on Thursday, Apr 14, 2011 2:51 PM
to Lisa, The brothers are not married to Christ. They are married to the church.”

How can a man be married TO the Church & be IN the Church, at the same time?

Here’ what I think:
There is ONE Groom = Jesus.
There is ONE Bride = His Church

We are ALL in the Church - & we have different ROLES in the one Church, in order to make it grow, keeping it healthy, until Jesus returns.  Priests, bishops, popes, us pew people = ALL make up the Church.  But we have different ROLES.

If any priest, brother, bishop, pope is married TO me, I want a divorce.

Roisin,

I would not agree with yoru characterization of Reform Judasim.  We are not merely a group and we are as every bit Jewish as the Orthodox.  We express our Judaism in a different way—but that does not make us “perfunctory” or a “group”

Please know that I grew up RC, went to RC grade school, girls cahtolic heigh school and RC college—where I earned a BA in RC theology and also in history. So I speak from a place of deep knowledge.

I have no disagrrement that men and women are different or that those diffrences are good—God is a God of diviersity and infinite variety.  That we know just be observing God’s vast creation.  But again, Genesis tells us that men and women are made in the image of God.

What a lot of you are saying is that priesthood id determined by biology.  That is just not the case—made in the image of God transcends mere physical biology.  What a lot of you are talking about is mere the cultural overlay on religion. I thas nothing to do with the fact the in baptism all Catholic are one in Christ—all who are called by God to the priesthood should be ordained—the RCC should not stand in the way of God.

Also, the RCC definition of apostle is conveniently and cultureally narrow.  Mary. the mother of Jesus and other women described in the NT are clearly apostles. 

And Roisin, if you want to go on to a Jewish blog and grip about the rules of kashrut or whatever, pleaser feel free.  Again, I come to this blog with many decades of knwledge and expereince as an RC prior to following God’s call to Judaism.

Factual point.  Saavy wrote that a woman did not die on the cross.  That’s technically true, because not one but many women have been crucified, including a number who were identified as travelers with Jesus.  Women, because of the particular misogyny then were crucified upside down and usually hung by their hair.

The bride and groom imagery is a metaphor. It is a nice way to look at the relationship between and God and God’s people.  But that imagery does not mean that women cannot be priests.

The wedding rings worn by priests, nuns and brothers symbolize their committment to God and to the RCC, but again this does not mean that women cannot be priests.  Nuns, priests and brothers are all “married” to God in the same way—they reserve themselves for God.  But God is neither male nor female.  God is both or neither—we do not know.  We know that all human beings are made in the image of God—we are intelligent and aware, we have free will.

I always believed that priesthood was only for men…I no longer believe this. I read the gospel of John about Jesus and the Samaritan woman. He talks to her (even when that is not the “correct” thing to do for a Jewish man), and she is the one who brings her people, her town close to Him. Nowadays, there are only very few men who want to become priests…are we going to attend Sunday Mass via EWTN? Is one priest going to consecrate the bread and the wine for 30,000 people? It’s not a matter of feminism…the issue goes far beyond. It’s about the lack of vocations among men. It’s about believing that a community needs more than one priest (in my Church there is only one for 1300 families!...he is exhausted)...it’s about believing that the other half of the world is hope.

Lisa:  (1) You ought not have said that you “speak from a place of deep knowledge”. That’s throwing raw meat to hungry wolves. You would do well to learn the charm of understatement. (2) As to just how “Jewish” Reform Judaism truly is, all I can say is this:  If you were to try to establish residence in Israel under the Law of the Return, I think you would be refused.  This would be due to the fact that your conversion from Catholicism to Judaism would not be recognized.  The only way you could remedy this would be to repeat the conversion process under the tutelage of an Orthodox rabbi.  Conversion to Judaism under the tutelage of a Reform rabbi is not recognized in Israel. So, the fact is that there are Jews who consider Reform Judaism to be an inauthentic form of Judaism.  (3) You say that Mary, the mother of Jesus, and other women in the New Testament are “clearly” apostles.  I don’t know how in the world you can possibly say that.  Do you know what “apostle” means?  Do you know the difference between “apostle” and “disciple”?  Do you know that the names of the twelve Apostles are clearly listed?  Lisa, in all charity, you would do well to study more and write less.

Born again Cradle Catholic,

Christ is the head, the church is his body. The church and Christ together form a whole Christ. It is a unity.

Church in Catholicism is not just a building with people, but the mystical body of Christ. It is on the pilgrimage towards Heaven.

Bride and Bridegroom are metaphors, perhaps the strongest metaphor used to describe our relationship with Christ, because in the incarnation God did not become any other creature, but man.

From Ella Maria. FL, USA
I used to think that priesthood was only for men…I do not believe this anymore. Jesus had no prejudices at all. He questioned the institutions. He defied the law that enslaves humans. He talked to the Samaritan woman (action which was completely against all he was supposed to do as a Jewish man), and then she converted an entire town. She was the one who helped evangelize others… A 50-year old priest is nowadays considered “a young priest”...how many men are willing to become priests? Are we going to have no other option but to watch Mass through EWTN in the near future? It’s not a matter of being feminist. I live in a city with around 25,000 Catholics. We only have one catholic priest. He is overwhelmed. God calls men to become priests…can’t He call women? Who are we to know everything about His will, His desires and His ways?

Lisa,

What you skipped is the incarnation. The son of God became man.  Jesus is fully God and fully Man, per our theology. The two aspects cannot be separated. In Heaven Jesus still has a male body.

if God was the first male priest, then the priest who represents him to has to be male. The son is one being with the father.

Jesus left women alone, and became a man, to call other men to become men like himself.

Men are spiritually weaker than women, men need to be transformed from predators to protectors, from abusers to defenders, from overlords to servants etc. Men have a greater capacity for mortal sin than women. History is proof of this.

It is therefore proper that a male priest should make atonement for sin and death on behalf of the community.

Commenter “jo” objects to my posted question, “Would Jesus recant?” Then goes on to state,“We are reminded often in the bible that Jesus obeyed His heavenly Father, prayed to His Father.”  Exactly! Jesus was a threat to the traditional thought of the times, because he was following his higher power—as Christians, do we live our lives following Christ or as I read again and again in these comments THE CHURCH?  Bishop Oscar Romero begged the soldiers in El Salvador to lay down their arms, to obey God’s higher order and to stop carrying out the government’s repression. If he hadn’t been assasinated would THE CHURCH have called for his excommunication?

@Lisa Kaiser
We clearly disagree on the the correlation of RJ to UUC, they are both secular/liberal/progressive in nature with heavy emphasis on moral relativism, soft Marxism, ecology and very watered down religiosity.
Sadly,  is clear you were poorly catechized in your formation and most likely influenced by either very liberal theology at your college level or have a lifestyle issue that is in conflict with the Church’s teachings. In reading all your posts, I believe both play a part in your exit of the Church to RJ. Your crude reference to ‘plumbing’ is not an impressive recant to the disagreement of male priest vocations,  you should have learned why we have male priest in all your schooling.  It is basically a mute point, since you are still waiting for the Messiah, and we know the covenant was fulfilled with Jesus Christ. 
I guess you cannot fully let go of your former religion as you are trolling the Catholic websites and debating 2000 year traditions, which is odd if you have moved on to a new religion.
Peace
Roisin
p.s you may want to try spell check next time.

Mona Shaw,

The Mass is the unique sacrifice of Jesus Christ, made present. it’s not yours or mine. These women were killed for their faith in Christ, not because they wanted to be priests.

GPULIDO,

It’s God who took flesh in the person of Jesus Christ that atones for our sins and death in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Yes, it’s true that Jesus did not care about tradition, which is why if he wanted to he could have ordained women, but he did not, for this reason.

Even wolves wear sheeps clothing. And satan also knows scripture. He is going by his own feelings which makes him prideful.

Rev Connolly, my Judaism is not defined by the what the Orthodox in Isreal think. I am as much a Jew as they are. Also, you clearly have bouhgt into clerical arrogance.

Savvy, you cannot possibly know, nor can anyone, waht body, if any, Jesus hsa in heaven. God is always God, neither male norfemale, or both.  We still “see as through a veil darkly”—St. Paul.  Roisin, you are in blatant error about Reform Judaism. We are not Marxists or moral relativists. Yes, we do care about God’s creation, the earth. Pope John Paul II, reached out to Jews. He cred about us and showed us the importance of Jews, Christians & Muslims talking to each other. My commenting on this site just means that as a Jew, I comment on this site. I am a Jew because God cslled me to be a Jew. My conversion was an embrace of Judaism,not a rejection of the RzCC. You cannot ssdume to know the path to which God hads called me.  Also, in your previous post, ypu may eant to look up the difference beteeen a “mute” point & a moot point.

This is too much officialdom and Our Lord Jesus Christ might have disliked it. He said it, ‘Law was made for man and not man for the law.’ What scandal is there in a good christian voicing his concern? There are many legalistic points that have nothing to do with the gospel that we ‘holify’ and make severe judgements along that Christ may have condemned as he did the Scribes and the Pharisees. Does one get judged by one ‘wrong’ move ignoring a lifetime’s service to God, Church and society?

Nothing does more to prove the murderous misogyny that drives the denial of ordination for women than the lie that is in any part due to the recognition the women are superior to men spiritually or morally.  To state that is in any part spare women sacrifice or any version of the cross is a hideous claim given the truth.

This is the oldest of hate-driven canards—that the “weaker” sex is subjugated to “protect” them.

Women have been crucified for their faith and for reasons no difference than those for which Christ of any MAN was crucified.  To minimize their sacrifice is shamefulness I would not like to explain on judgment day.

The most glaring part of this lie and horror is that women have murdered by the Church, not protected by it.  Women have been murdered as witches for simply reading the Bible.  Joan d’Arc did not die a natural or painless death.  I’d like to see the case that being burned alive is somehow less horrible than being nailed to a cross.  If it can be made, it would be a ridiculous comparative analysis.

The Church doesn’t ordain women because it hates them.  It sees their value as only as to be an incubator for their sons and more girls to serve them as domestic slaves.

If Father believes that the Holy Spirit guides our Church perhaps then he may be able to accept the Church’s teaching on ordination of women. The woman is the nurturer, always the mother. Why didn’t Jesus make His Mother a priest. I understand that Father has strong feelings and beliefs about the subject but can he just let it go and obey the Church? It will take an act of humility to recant. I pray that he sees the light.

Lisa,

The Eternal Word chose to incarnate and reveal himself as the Son of the Father and Bridegroom of God’s People.

In order for a human to be a son or a bridegroom, he must be male. Jesus Christ is male because he is Son, not vice versa.

The incarnation was also into service and suffering. Hence, the sacrifice of the lamb has to be his sacrifice.

For it was part of the divine plan from the beginning for God to covenant himself to a people as a groom covenants himself to a bride. Christ is the Bridegroom, the Church is his Bride. This makes us all feminine in relation to God. Women need not become like men when they approach God, but men must become like women, spiritually. All souls are Christ’s brides.

Mona,

I am sorry that you feel this way.  Joan of Ark is our saint, who was tried in a fake trial by the English.

The site http://www.joan-of-arc.org tells the full story, including letters and the full trial. This is an explanation of the trial.

“Some of these men [court officials] later admitted that the English conducted the proceedings for the purposes of revenge rather than out of any genuine belief that she was a heretic..

It would not be until the English were finally driven from Rouen in November of 1449, near the end of the war, that the slow process of appealing the case would be initiated. This process resulted in a posthumous acquittal by an Inquisitor named Jean Bréhal, who ironically had been a member of an English-run institution during the war. Bréhal nevertheless ruled that she had been convicted illegally and without basis by a corrupt court operating in a spirit of, quote, “manifest malice against the Roman Catholic Church and indeed even of heresy”. The Inquisitor and other theologians consulted for the appeal therefore denounced Cauchon and the other judges and described Joan as a martyr, thereby paving the way for her eventual beatification in 1909 and canonization as a saint in 1920, by which time even English writers and clergy no longer showed the opposition that their predecessors had. During World War I, in the midst of the canonization process and a period of French-English detente, Allied soldiers would pay tribute to the heroine by invoking her name on battlefields not far from her own.”

Where did you get the idea that women were condemned for reading the Bible?

Google Jenny Dobbins, the wiccan historian who sets the record straight.

We have many female saints and doctors of the church. We venerate Mary, as the Mother of God, to the extent that we get accused of worshipping her.

Mary, is considered greater than any of the angels.

The cross of Christ does not the take away from anybody else’s sufferings.

The church does not ordain women, because it’s the marriage feast of the bridegroom, Christ. The church itself is the bride of Christ. For God all souls are feminine. Women must be themselves, but men must spiritually become like women.

Lisa,

The liturgy on earth is a participation in the liturgy in heaven.

What’s revealed to John is that the Mass we celebrate on earth is a participation in the liturgy of heaven.

John’s vision begins on “the Lord’s day,“Sunday (see Revelation 1:10)

And John sees the same things we see when we come to Mass.

He sees an altar (see Revelation 8:3); candles (1:12); incense (5:8); priests dressed in robes (4:4). And he sees bread or manna (2:17), and bowls or chalices of blood (see Revelation 16).

He sees heavenly worshippers – angels and saints – crying, “Holy, Holy, Holy”(4:8), singing a hymn to the glory of God, the heavenly king (15:3) and shouting “alleluia”(19:1,3,6) and making the sing of the cross on their foreheads (14:1).

There are readings from Scripture (Revelation 2-3), and, finally, the “wedding feast of the Lamb”(19:9).

The first eleven chapters are concerned with the reading of letters, to be written on a scroll by John who “gives witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ by reporting what he saw"at the dictation of “one like a son of man”(see Revelation 1: 2,11-13).

The “one like a son of man"is Jesus Christ, who often referred to himself as “Son of Man”(see, Matthew 25:31, Mark 8:31, Luke 12:8, John 3:13).

Except that this bias doesn’t hold with the reality of biology.  There are not simply two genders, male and female.  Just as those did not understand 2000 years ago that the Earth was not flat; they did not understand that sex/gender was far more complex than the male/female binary.  There are people born with a variety of genetic variables and with a variety of genitalia.  According to some studies as many as 1 in 12 born have genders that don’t fall into the male/female binary.  What if someone has 2 X chromosomes but male genitalia?  What if someone has an X and Y chromosomes, male genitalia but a fully functioning uterus and fallopian tubes?  These are not birth defects.  These are human beings who God created differently than our staid expectations.  What about them?

@lisa kaiser
Roisin, you are in blatant error about Reform Judaism. We are not Marxists or moral relativists. Yes, we do care about God’s creation, the earth. Pope John Paul II, reached out to Jews. He cred about us and showed us the importance of Jews, Christians & Muslims talking to each other. My commenting on this site just means that as a Jew, I comment on this site. I am a Jew because God cslled me to be a Jew. My conversion was an embrace of Judaism,not a rejection of the RzCC. You cannot ssdume to know the path to which God hads called me.  Also, in your previous post, ypu may eant to look up the difference beteeen a “mute” point & a moot point.

Yes, one typo (moot) compared to your entire message containing errors. (cslled, RzCC, ssdume, hads, ypu, eant, beteen)  The list goes on, BTW anything underlined is an incorrect spelling.

Because it is Holy Week, I will not engage you in any discussions as I want my heart and soul clear for the Lord.  I pray for your reversion and following the path that God has given you, not the militant feminist/humanistic agenda.  Those are not God’s ways.
Happy Passover
Peace
Roisin

Rosin,  I often use a mobile device and the using its keyboard is a bit awkward at time.  Please do not pray for my “reversion”.  God has led me to Judaism.  It is God’s will that I be a Jew.  That is a long and personal story, but let me say that it has been very very clear to me that God has led me to Judaism.  Jews have been around for 5,000 yrs—far longer than Christians.  Jews are in the world, because it is God’s will that there be Jews.  Our covenant with God stand as alive, vibrant, robust and vital as it did on the day Abraham encountered God through God’s angels.  And if by “feminist” you mean that we embrace the declaration of Genesis—that women and men are made in the image of God, that men and women are equal in the sight of God, that we must reject the hateful treatment of women in the RCC, in Judaism, in Islam, then I am a feminist.

In looking at the majority of posts—its seems many are hung up on the biology—that biology is the sole determinant re whether a person can a priest in the RCC or not.  The bride/bridegroom imagery/allegory is just that—imagery.  It is helps us understand the deep connection between God and human beings.  It does not mean women cannot be priests.  Again, Genesis makes no distinction re biology—men and women are made in the image of God.  St. Paul, in talking about baptism, makes no distinction—all are one in Christ. If one belongs to Christ, then one can be called to the RCC priesthood.  That is very clear.

God’s love and grace do not depend on any person’s biology.

Lisa and Mona
It sounds like both of you should move on to your new founded religion that provides all the comforts your flesh desires.(women, free love, green religion, alternative lifestyles etc)  Maybe you can join all those women who left to be priestesses in a heretical group, but one day you will return to us. This Grandma is tired of seeing your negative, feminist rants. 
Move on ladies, we don’t need your ignorant opinions, I think the 1 billion plus Catholics worldwide will stick with the teachings of Jesus. 
You cannot have your cake and eat it too, this is tough love please move on… (I’m sure you love Obama too so MOVE ON)

Mona,

Intersex is the exception, not the rule. All people are called to holiness.  In their case they just would not be able to be priest/religious.

We see marriage, being single and the priesthood/religious life as vocations that we are called to.

Our identity is first in Christ, everything else comes second.

Lisa,

St. Paul also says there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free. Does this mean that there are literally no Jews or Greeks?

Don’t worry about my treatment, because this is a subject that you clearly do not understand.

Lisa,

The form and matter of the sacraments is the sole criteria. We cannot baptize with any other liquid other than natural water, we cannot use anything other than wheat bread and grape wine at communion.

This does not mean that we hate all other forms of water or wine or bread.

The sacraments are fixed covenants.

If you are interesting in knowing why, I can recommend a few books.

Lisa:  #1 - You say that Jews have been around for 5,000 years.  Where do you get 5,000? Would you show me the math on that?  #2 - I grant you that Judaism is older than Christianity, but Hinduism is older than Judaism.  So, maybe you should be a Hindu.  If God calls you to convert to Hinduism, will you do so?  But how will you know it is God who is calling you and not somebody else?  #3 - When Paul said that, in Christ, there is neither male nor female, he was distinguishing Baptism from Circumcision.  Entrance into membership in the New Covenant is via Baptism, which is administered to male and female without distinction, whereas entrance into membership in the Old Covenant is via Circumcision, which is obviously not administered to females.  You say that we Catholics are hung up on biology.  Would you not say that, by restricting the rite of circumcision to boys, Jews are also “hung up on biology”?  Thank you for pointing out to me that I am afflicted with clerical arrogance.  I appreciate your desire to help me to be a better person.

Though there are many reasons that women can’t be ordained to the priesthood, one stands out to me.  The priesthood is a gift for men, because they *need* it.  Another is that *we* need good strong Fathers - especially today with so many broken homes. 

Yes, we ladies would make far better priests.  We’re more naturally inclined to spiritual matters.  We participate far more (just look around any church gathering - Catholic, Protestant, Jewish… The ladies outnumber the men 3 to 1— 6 to 1 if you don’t count the men that were brought by wives or mothers). 

But, gifts should be given to those in need….  Men need the priesthood to build themselves up.  And we need the gift of strong holy men as priests and fathers. 

We all win.

To: Rev. Edward B. Connolly on Monday, Apr 18, 2011 7:52 PM - whole post:

Cradle’s reply-
Thank you for your post - you made excellent points.  This discussion was getting so far off base, it was hard to know how to respond to it.  I’m glad you wrote.  Regarding the “clerical arrogance”: perhaps that may not apply to you.  But it most certainly applies to the majority of your “brother-priests” & it applies to the majority of the Magesterium.

I believe it’s the whole priests are “other Christs” concept that caused it.  Instead of focusing on ALL of us being a “priesthood of believers”, and ALL of us being “The Body of Christ” and “The Bride of Christ”.  Priests are singled out from the Church, and called “special”, resulting in a superior clerical culture, if not in real life, then in their own minds. 

To: Linda who wrote, on Monday, Apr 18, 2011 11:58 PM (EDT):
“Yes, we ladies would make far better priests.  We’re more naturally inclined to spiritual matters.  We participate far more (just look around any church gathering - Catholic, Protestant, Jewish… The ladies outnumber the men 3 to 1— 6 to 1 if you don’t count the men that were brought by wives or mothers).  But, gifts should be given to those in need.  Men need the priesthood to build themselves up.  And we need the gift of strong holy men as priests and fathers.”

Cradle’s reply-
Women would NOT make “far better priests”.  That would run contrary to the ROLES the Bible so clearly outlines for men and for women.  Women are not to *lead* men.

The reason there are so many women in church power now (even acting as pastoral associates, which was, in my childhood days: an “assistant pastor”) is because too few men are IN church now.  22-45% of the clergy (priests and bishops) have homosexual inclinations, so even though they’re male, they’re not of the masculine persuasion.

Church is a girly place to be.  Look at all the lace, the finery of it all.  Some of it is there for God - but not most of it.  Why would priests wear all the finery OFF the altar?  The dry cleaning bill in the Vatican alone if redirected to something more useful, should be enough to clothe and feed a small third world country for a year.

“Men need the priesthood to build themselves up.” - What?????  Paul wrote MEN should be godly men BEFORE they are priests.  Priests need WIVES to build themselves up.  Linda, if you refuse to keep up on the news, and SEE what a mess our church is in, then please pick up your Bible and read it, and SEE what the ideal (and specific) qualifications are for those in ordained ministry.  Mandated celibacy needs to end.

Cradle,

We are all priests, but there is also a ministerial priesthood, which was established by Christ and existed since the earliest days.  Protestants chose to reject the Biblical/historical facts around this, because it would lead them to accept teachings on the Eucharist and the Mass, that they do not want to accept.

Nobody values priests above others. It’s in fact people who fight for the priesthood that make it look like it’s more valuable, when there are other things to do.

The Bible does not mandate celibacy, but it also does not mandate marriage. They are both vocations, that people are called too.

The Eastern churches and the Anglican ordinariates being setup have a married priesthood.

Homosexuals have been banned from the seminary.

Women can be leaders in the church. They just cannot be priests, the verses in the Bible, refer to the priesthood.

I do agree that men learn by watching other men.

The Latin church has set the reform of the reform in place. First things first.

Mona, Linda and Born Again,
Go to your new religions and leave us in peace during Holy Week. All three of you suffer from the sin of PRIDE.
‘Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.’ 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Theresa

Rev. Edward,

Brahmins are priests in Hinduism. Their priesthood is also linked to sacrifices and is also male. Hence the sacrificial priesthood was always Male, and women were never priests.

Our priesthood is not genetic, like the Cohen’s or the Brahmin’s, but is linked to blood and sacrifice of Christ.

Savvy, you wrote, “Nobody values priests above others.”

Cradle’s reply-
Then why did an official document come out from the Vatican - by JPII, if memory serves - calling celibacy “superior” to the married state?

Savvy wrote: “Women can be leaders in the church.” Cradle’s reply- Women are *not* to lead men, neither in the church nor in the home.  Where do you get your information that women *can* LEAD MEN in the Church?

Savvy wrote: “The Eastern churches and the Anglican ordinariates being setup have a married priesthood.”  Cradle’s reply- the configuration DEMANDING celibacy in the Latin rite, and ALLOWING married clergy in the Eastern rite is polar opposite.  Yet, at the time the church was forming, the structure was UNIFORM for everyone = no big ta-doo was made about married men being ordained.  In fact married priests, BISHOPS, AND POPES, was the norm.

Savvy, you wrote: “Homosexuals have been banned from the seminary.”  Cradle’s reply- in what world are you living?  Homosexuals have been WELCOMED and PROTECTED for years, because that lifestyle is persuasive in the Roman Catholic church.  22-45% of our clergy (priests and bishops) are of a homosexual persuasion.  That statistic is from a church insider, Thomas Plante, Ph D.  He said it may even be 50% of the preisthood, by now.

The priesthood is a place where men that are a little light in the feet can go, and be adored, admired, and appreciated, for not being married.
We have exclusively males in the clergy, but how many REAL MEN?  Too few.

To Theresa O - why do you even bother with the Bible verses, if you insist on taking them out of context?  God’s Word is irrelevant to you.  So stick with Tradition.  Just say, “It’s always been that way.  The Vatican says so.  I’m sticking with whatever THEY say.”

That’s a valid response.  You need not have a verse to pull out of Scripture, unless you have respect for ALL of God’s Word, not just verses that seem to fit your predetermined conclusions.

My opinion is that the best way to commemorate Holy Week is to OBEY GOD, by honoring His Word.

I agree with the Communist infiltration theory.  That is
all Fr. Bourgeois and many other priests are about.  To tear the Catholic Church down from within.  The Communists are doing the same with our beloved America as we speak.  Khrushchev told America, as he pounded his shoe on the table of the UN during a meeting in the 60’s, “We will never drop a bomb on you, we will take you over from within!”  Wake up America! Wake up Catholics!

Well, I’ve certainly been put in my proper place.  I wish I could say this is the first time I’ve been treated hurtfully for standing up for women and message of Jesus that God Is Love.  I Corinthians: 13

Cradle,

Celibacy for the kingdom is a sign that points to the eternal marriage to come. Celibates skip the earthly marriage in anticipation of the heavenly one. The purpose of this is to live with Jesus in the Eucharist. It will not work otherwise.

There are several saints who used to be radiating after spending time in Eucharistic adoration.

Cradle,

There were women leaders in the early church, but not priests.

“In fact married priests, BISHOPS, AND POPES, was the norm.”

This is not true Cradle. You might want to read the writings of the early church.

The Church Fathers of the first four centuries consistently spoke against the married priesthood. (Eusibius, Augustine, Tertullian, Origen, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Jerome etc..) St. Epiphanius speaks of the accepted ecclesiastical rule of the priesthood (kanona tes ierosynes) as something established by the Apostles. (Haer., xlviii, 9) “Holy Church”, he says, “respects the dignity of the priesthood to such a point that she [the Church] does not admit to the diaconate, the priesthood, or the episcopate, nor even to the subdiaconate, anyone still living in marriage and begetting children.” (Haer., lix, 4).

The traditions in the East and West are not opposites, because earthly marriage foreshadows the marriage to come. They hence, compliment each other.

Homosexuals have now been banned from the seminaries, after the abuse crisis broke out.

There are many Orthodox Catholic orders coming up with real men and women.

The Liberals are dying out. They are not yet gone, but their numbers are on the decline.

You might want to see this.

Thousands Joining Church at Easter in US

http://ewtn.com.au/vnews/getstory.asp?number=112779

Cradle,

As someone rightly pointed out. You have left the faith, so why bother what goes on in it. It’s none of your business.

My church complied the Bible that you now worship and wrongly interpret, leading to over 30,000 denominations that cannot agree on things.

Wow,  what I see here is just bizarre. So now Fr. Roy is a Communist and women cannot lead men???  If this was not an internet comment thread, I would think that I am reading comments from about 100 yrs ago.  Communists??? Really???  The RCC is doing a great job of tearing itself apart via its pedophile priests, bishops and cardinals who covered up these crimes (which is a criminal act in & of itself).  Here in Phoenix, the former bishop, Thomas O’Brien is a convicted felon for killing a pedestrian and leaving the scene.  Cardinal Rigali has destroyed his credibility, and the hierarchy is just sitting back watching the RCC implode. The RC laity is sitting back and not demanding change re the safety of children.  The RCC has become polarized between the rigid right and those who seek to fulfill the promise of Vatican II.  So no external enemy to the RCC need do anything. RCs are their own worst enemy.  The RCC is slowly destroying itself from within.

Theresa O, I think, asked me if I would convert to Hinduism if God led me in that direction.  The answer would be yes.  I would follow God’s lead, whatever path God choose to call me to follow.  My path to Judaism was long and God’s direction to me was consistent.  God is all powerful and without limits.  God calls us to many paths—for reasons known only to God.  God has called me to a community of people in this time and place—a community of deep spirituality, deep love of God, deep love of human beings, deep love of all of God’s creation.  The Torah tells us that we are to love God with all of our strength and all of our heart.  Jews exist in the world today, because it is God’s will that we exist.  We have survived deep and persistent persecution from Christians in many times and in many places.  Not even 600 yrs of the Inquisition or the horrors of Holocaust have destroyed us.  Judaism is alive, well, growing and thriving, because God wills it.

Also, someone asked me how I know that Jews have been around for 5,000 yrs—to that I would say—just read history.  Or ask an RC priest or scholar who has knowledge of religious history, read any Karen Armstrong book on the history of monotheism (Judaism, Christianity, Islam),  The RCC believes and teaches that Jews have been around for approx 5,000 yrs.  Jesus, as an observant Jew, belonged to a faith that was ancient when he lived.  Open the New American Bible (which the US Catholic Conference of Bishops has online on its web site).  The New American Bible is an RC Bible.  The USCCB has online all books of the Bible and this includes good historical information on each book—when it was written, etc.

To those of you who wish I would not comment here—I would say your intolerance is hardly Christian.  And the bottom line is this, we can express our opinions via this comment thread, but ultimately, God and history will have the last words.  God gives us free will—and if the RCC ceases to be what it as been (for better or worse) because of the actions of its members, then RCs will only have themselves to blame.

Read AA-1025: The Memoirs of a Communist’s Infiltration into the Church by Marie Carre published in 1972 from papers she found while taking care of a communist-priest who died in a Paris hospital in the 1960’s.  He had no name, no identification, just his code name of AA-1025. If you want to know what has happened to our beautiful Catholic Church and why, this book will explain it.  It’s only 135 pages, but a real eye-opener.  The AA stands for anti-apostle, and the number 1025 means that this communist was the 1,025th communist to enter the seminary to bring down the church from within.  Lays out all the plans, and sadly, you can see that this has all come to pass. Marian devotion was especially hated.  That’s why Jesus said will there be any faith left when He returns.  Just the small, faithful remnant because the gates of hell will never prevail.  The real, strong Catholics know what to do.  Here’s a link to give you a quick rundown.  http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/dalston/687/aa1025.htm

Savvy,

St. Paul’s comment re “neither Greek nor Jew, neither male nor female, all are one in Christ,:  Refers not to physical reality, but to spiritual reality.  It is human beings who want to make baseless distinctions—like women cannot be priests because they have a vagina.  In Genesis it just says men and women are created in the image of God.  There are no distinctions based on race, genitalia, height, eye color, income, or even religious belief.  God has made all human beings in the image of God.  God loves all human beings, God bestows God’s grace on all human beings. For us to follow the example of God—we would cease to make distinctions based on human privilege /power or attempts to confine God to narrow limits.

God has created a dynamic universe.  All things are in constant state of change.  God’s creation unfold, unfolds, unfolds across the eons because God is all powerful.  The needs of God’s people are dynamic.  Perhaps the lack of vocations from men called be celibate is a message from God that this is a turning point in history: that it is time to ordain women and to ordain married men and married women.  That the time of a celibate all male priesthood has passed.

Lisa,

If biology is not important, then why restrict circumcision only to boys in Judaism?

V2 documents do not support the things you call for.

Please prove your arguments form the documents themselves, and not based on hearsay.

Far from being destroyed it’s the Orthodox circles that are on the rise, while the rest go bankrupt and empty.

If marriage was good enough for St. Peter, then it must be good enough for all priests.

Joss, one book from 1972, from Paris, about something that may or may not have happened in the 1960s, certainly does not prove that Fr. Roy is a communist, that the Maryknolls are communists or that there was a wholesale infiltration of the RRC by communists or that there are now communists in the RCC seeking to bring it down.

Really, the current RC hierarchy are the worst enemies the RCC has.  The bishops and cardinals are doing a great job of destroying the RCC from within, they need no help from communists.

Somebody posted that thousands are joining the RCC this Holy Saturday.  Yes, that may be true, but at least an equal number, if not more are leaving the RCC.  Converts really do not represent real growth in the RCC.  And once the Hispanic immigrants become more assimilated into the US culture, and become educated Americans, they too will see the spiritual bankruptcy of the hierarchy and leave the RCC.  Latinos are already leaving the RCC in central and south American for other churches.

Lisa:  (1) It was not Theresa O, it was the priest who is guilty of clerical arrogance (viz. yours truly) who asked you whether you would convert from Judaism to Hinduism if God called you to do so. You have answered in the affirmative and I thank you for the answer.  But you did not answer the companion question as to how you would KNOW that it was God who was calling you to do so.  What objective criterion would you have?  And, while you’re at it, do you think it was God who called Saul of Tarsus to convert from Judaism to Christianity?  Or was it someone else?  Does God play musical chairs with us, calling some persons to convert to one religion and others to convert to another?  Did you convert from Catholicism to Judaism because you like Jewish people better than you like Catholic people or did you convert because you ceased to believe that Jesus is Risen Lord and Messiah?  If the former, I don’t blame you.  I like Jewish people very much, at least the ones I have come to know personally.  They are among my favorite all-time people.  However, I don’t convert to their religion for the very simple reason that I believe that Jesus is the Risen Lord and Messiah.  (2) With all due respect, Lisa, you throw numbers around rather carelessly.  You insist on saying that Judaism is five thousand years old, even after it was pointed out to you that it is NOT five thousand years old.  Would you not please make the concession now that it has been pointed out to you again?  And you refer to “600 years of the Inquisition”.  Are you serious?  600 years?  Good grief!  Have you ever cracked a history book, Lisa?  Please!  It’s starting to get embarrassing!  (3)  Another thing is this:  You don’t seem to understand the significance of the anatomical differences between the genders.  You make the rather flippant statement that “women cannot be priests because they have a vagina”.  Gulp!  Okay, let me explain this as well and as succinctly as I can.  A human person is a composite of soul and body.  The soul is the form of the body.  The body is the visible physical manifestation of the soul.  We can tell something about a person’s soul from observing his or her body.  Every human soul is either masculine or feminine.  Masculinity and femininity are essential qualities of human personhood.  If I am a man (which I am), I am essentially a man and my body reveals that fact.  If you are a woman (which you are), you are essentially a woman and your body reveals that fact.  Our gender identity transcends our bodies.  We are permanently either man or woman.  Our resurrected bodies will be the same gender as our current bodies.  This is not my invention.  This is Catholic doctrine.  Therefore, sexual differentiation is to be taken VERY seriously.  Your readiness to dismiss sexual differentiation as being ultimately irrelevant is indicative of your buying into the heresy of Dualism, which, by the way, is a VERY un-Jewish way of thinking.  Jews are characteristically much more concrete and realistic.  Good Jews are not Dualists.  Neither are good Catholics.

Lisa,

Your not the first doom and gloom prophet and you won’t be the last.

“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it,” (Matt. 16:18).

“Yes, that may be true, but at least an equal number, if not more are leaving the RCC.  Converts really do not represent real growth in the RCC.  And once the Hispanic immigrants become more assimilated into the US culture, and become educated Americans, they too will see the spiritual bankruptcy of the hierarchy and leave the RCC. “

Lisa. I sense a lot of Anti-Catholicism in your comment. Jesus did not ask his followers for numbers, but for faithfulness.

Evangelical enthusiasm and emotion does not last too long.

People are leaving due to Catholics who want to water down the faith and not present things the way they are.

In more Orthodox churches we have more people, more young people, more life.

You have been hanging around the wrong people Lisa.

Lisa, never said Fr Roy was or is a communist.  The reason so many of our present priests, bishops and cardinals are destroying the church from within is explained in AA-1025.  If you read it you will see that the Church’s problems today are the culmination of the Russian Secret Police’s plan. The communist seminary infiltration in Europe, but more aggressively in America, began in the late 1930’s. AA-1025’s papers weren’t discovered by Marie Carree until his auto accident in 1960.  She didn’t published them until 1972, so this is not something that started in the 1960’s but started to manifest itself in the 60’s.  Read the book and you will see why things are in disarray today. It’s only 135 pages.

Rev Connolly,

I became a Jew because God called me to that path.  I embraced Judaism.  My conversion was not because I rejected RCism.  God called me to Judaism and I followed God’s call.  And I am not certain how, via a comment thread, to adequately express, how I know that call came from God.  Over the course of more than 30+ yrs, I have seen how God has guided me on my present path and to my present Jewish community.  As for Saul—you would have to ask him about how he decided his conversion came from God.  So you will have no immediat4e answer about that! I can make no judgment about that.  I can only say with certainty that God called me to Judaism. There are many faiths in the world obviously—and of course there a several very large one.  There are millions of Christians and Muslims of course.  There are many who follow Buddha and who follow the path of Hinduism. In Genesis God promised to make a great nation of Abraham’s descendants (Jews) and in Genesis God promised to make a great nation of the descendant’s of Abraham’s son, Ishmael (Muslims).  So it seems from scripture that the 3 Abrahamic traditions exist now because of the will of God.  As for Hindus, etc, I would think that they too exist because God wills it.  God calls us to many paths.  God’s creation is a dynamic one and our lives are dynamic.  As scripture reminds us—There is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven.  There was a season for me to be RC and now there is a season for me to be Jew. And I hope I fulfill God’s purpose in each path to which God has called me.  I would not call that musical chairs.  The Divine is beyond our knowing. We pray to discern God’s will and follow as God leads.  And in that regard, I can only speak about my life and make no judgments about how God calls other people and make no judgments regarding the paths and timing God has for others.  That is the business of the Divine.

And as for your theories re gender, you can believe what you want.  No one, and certainly not the RCC can know what our"resurrected” bodies will be.  Only God knows and we will have to wait until God reveals that to us after death..  What I do know is that gender makes no difference in the eyes of God—because men and women are made in the image of God (per Genesis). That God bestows His/Her/Its gifts, love and grace upon us without regard to biology.  Only silly, sinful human beings insist on making these baseless distinctions.

Please do read some history re Judaism and the Inquisition.  It is you who is in error on these points.

And yes Judaism is 5,000 yrs old.  Jesus lived 2,000 yrs ago and Judaism was ancient the,  King David lived a 1,000 yrs before Jesus and Judiasm was ancient then.  The December 2010 issue of National Geographic has a lead story on King David and you will find relevant dates there.

And yes, the Inquisition lasted 600 yrs—do some reading.  Its intensity waxed and waned, but in Europe Jews were always expelled, forced to live apart from Christians, restricted from certain professions, tortured, murdered, subject to the blood libel, subject to other persecutions from mobs (a particularly nasty one of these events occurred in Germany in the 12 century during the lifetime of the famed Talmudic commentator, Rashi).  The RCC sanctioned all these things because of the false charge of deicide the RCC leveled against the Jews.  And PBS did a great program last yr about the 600 yrs of the Inquisition.  YTou can probably order the DVD from PBS if you cannot access the program

Rev Connolly,

Here is the broad time line of the RCC Inquisition (and please feel free to do your own research—you will find that I am correct):

Medieval Inquisition: 1231-16th century
Spanish Inquisition: 1478-1834
Portugese Inquisition: 1536-1821
Roman Inquisition: 1542-1860

From 1231 CE to 1860 CE is 629 yrs.  CE refers to Common Era.  You perhaps call this AD.

So the Inquisition happened in many places over 600+ yrs/

Rev Connolly,

Regarding the age of Judaism:  Abraham lived approx 1991BCE. However, so if you start with Abraham (as opposed to Adam). then Judaism is 4,000+ yrs old.  Merely twice as old as Christianity.
.
However, the traditional Jewish calendar begins with creation of Adam and Eve. Our current calendar year is 5771. Does that jive with modern science—of course not.  The universe and the earth are about 3 billion yrs old according to astronomers who study the origin of the universe.  Our calendar reflects how we view the beginnings of Judaism.  So whether Judaism is 4,000+ yrs old or 5771 yrs old, Judaism has been around much much longer than Christianity.  We are still around.  Judaism predates Christianity, Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Mary Magdalene, all the other “apostles” were observant Jews, and God willing we will be around until the end of time and beyond.

Judaism’s long and rich spirituality are above and beyond our belief that the messiah has not yet arrived. Belief in a messiah is but a very small part of what Judaism is.  Judaism is focused on love of God, love of neighbor, ethical living.

Rev Connolly,

A couple of further comments;

As you see from my previous posts, I do not trow numbers around carelessly.  Also, as a Jew, I am free to believe as I wish about God. No central hierarchy imposes doctrine on Jews.  As Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan (founder of the Reconstructionist Movement within Judaism) reminds Jews, “Tradition has a vote, but not a veto.”  Further, you do not and cannot define my Judaism as good or not good.  As long-time Roman Catholic, with a BA in Roman Catholic theology from a Roman Catholic college, I can comment from knowledge and experience about RCism.  Since you have never been a Jew, you are not in the same position.

Your comments indicate that you may not know that Judaism is not monolithic, that there is not a central hierarchy that demands we believe this or that.  Thankfully, there are many women who are rabbis, who chant Torah, who are scholars of Judaism, who convey our tradition to us, who bring a great and creative spiritual energy to our tradition.  Within Judaism, biology does not restrict a woman. In Judaism, we seek to recreate the relationship that existed in the the Garden of Eden between God and people—that men and women stood as equals before God.

Savvy - You wrote, “Cradle: Celibacy for the kingdom is a sign that points to the eternal marriage to come. Celibates skip the earthly marriage in anticipation of the heavenly one. The purpose of this is to live with Jesus in the Eucharist. It will not work otherwise. There are several saints who used to be radiating after spending time in Eucharistic adoration.”

Cradle’s reply-
Savvy, do you not see what you wrote is Gnostic?  That opinion overlooks important points:

1) That God Himself said, “It is NOT good for man to be alone…”
2) That Paul gave Timothy and Titus SPECIFIC qualifications for those in ordained ministry
3) That Universal Church Tradition HAD married men in ministry, from the time of Peter, and until the year 1139AD.
4) Your idea that priests are to be like “angels” is NOT WORKING. Even St. Peter Damian wrote about the abuses, centuries ago.

How can you quote Origen, when he isn’t even named a “Saint” due to the outrageous positions he held on other issues?  It was Origen that had himself castrated, trying to live up to the Matthew 19 verse, that you, Savvy, hold in such esteem.  Most others denounced it, at the time.

Pope Benedict has been lauding Origen for the past few years.  But the church did NOT give Origen the honors they gave to others in his time.  If Origen is so correct about everything, why did they snub him?  It’s Origen that held your Gnostic views, Savvy.  Peter and Paul would have ostracized Origen - they were MEN and they had GUTS.

As for saints that “radiated”.  Catholics as a rule, will buy any drivel, Savvy.  Being Bible-illiterate, they just don’t know better.  Put a Roman Collar on Bernard Madoff, and most Catholics would believe anything he said, and even take up a cause for him to be a saint.  Arthristis today?  Gone tomorrow!  Bernie Madoff is a hero.  Call Rome.

It wouldn’t even matter to them that he’s still in prison, because Catholics don’t bother to check out facts.  Rumors work fine.

Like the radiating saints.  Sounds good.  Go with it.  It’s like your comment, “Celibates skip the earthly marriage in anticipation of the heavenly one.”  That would sound reasonable to someone that does not know New Testament Scripture, *in context*.

If Pope Benedict came out saying Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy were alive and well.  Oh wow!  Three more saints names to go into Catholic’s canonization bucket.

No wonder charitable non-Catholic Christians pity us.  Our focus is not on Jesus.  Our focus is on Rome and all the new & fun things they come up with, to “sell” us on. If it looks & sounds pious, carve it in stone!
If it’s dead, and it was Catholic: canonize it!!  It’s ear-tickling.  Most Catholic pew people LOVE to have their ears tickled.

“Converts really do not represent real growth in the RCC.  And once the Hispanic immigrants become more assimilated into the US culture, and become educated Americans, they too will see the spiritual bankruptcy of the hierarchy and leave the RCC. “

Jewish Comedy Writer Tom Leopold (Seinfeld) is being baptized this Easter.

http://usccbmedia.blogspot.com/2011/04/i-just-cant-make-it-alone-tom-leopolds.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+UsccbMediaBlog+(USCCB+Media+Blog)&utm_content=Google+Reader

To Rev. Edward B. Connolly, re: Thursday, Apr 21, 2011 11:34 PM post:

Cradle’s reply-
Regarding gender differences, and how the Jewish people react to it:
I was once introduced to an Orthodox rabbi, and not knowing any better, I offered my hand, to shake his.

He placed hands behind his back, as if I had cooties, and said, “Women and men do not touch, unless they are married or related.”  So you are correct, in that what you described was what I witnessed.  That synagogue also has two different worship areas, one for men, and one for women.  And as you point out, sexual differentiation is taken VERY seriously.

Regarding the date of the Jewish nation - Why is it not 5,000 years?  It would date from around the time of Abraham - Jacob (Israel) really - and I thought he lived around 5,000 years ago.  Perhaps I’m wrong.  I’m just going by memory. With that said, Jesus was a Jew.  Jesus was not Catholic.

Lisa - Fr. Ed is correct about Jesus being who He said He was: the long awaited Messiah from Isaiah 52 & 53 “The Suffering Servant”; the reason to be Christian is that our faith (The Deposit of Faith left to us by the apostles) is true.  The Hebrew Scriptures were fulfilled, in Jesus’ life, death, resurrection & ascension into Heaven.  He will come again.  Jesus lives.

Jewish people can be very, very nice - funny, charming, good friends, excellent cooks - but we’re talking about matters of Eternal Value, when we discuss who Jesus was.  We’re on earth for a brief time.  Eternity is forever.

Lee Stroebel wrote excellent books about Christ.  He was an atheist that set out to prove Christianity was wrong.  An investigative reporter, he gathered all the evidence about Jesus, as he would gather evidence in his regular work, and he came to the conclusion Jesus was who He said He was: the Son of God, the Jewish Messiah.

Cradle,

I never quoted Origen.  There is nothing gnostic in what I wrote.  I never claimed we could be angels.

Paul also said this.

1 Cor 7:24-35
“In whatever condition you were called, brothers and sisters, there remain with God. Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife… Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none,  but the married man is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please his wife,  and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin are anxious about the affairs of the Lord, so that they may be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please her husband. I say this for your own benefit, not to put any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and unhindered devotion to the Lord.”

This means some people are called to be single or celibate for the Lord.

Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church before you make stupid comments.

Sola Scriptura is not historical or Biblical. Your Bible was complied by my Church.

No Apostolic church subscribes to a 16th century invention.

Lisa,

Gender differences are taken very seriously in Orthodox Jewish circles as Cradle pointed out.

A Rabbi is not a priest.  Temple Judaism never had women priests and even if the temple is rebuilt they are not going to have women priests.

A Catholic priest is not a rabbi, but is based on the Levitical priesthood of temple Judaism.

That being said I am fed up of this debate, since you do not “get” it.

“Our focus is on Rome and all the new & fun things they come up with, to “sell” us on. If it looks & sounds pious, carve it in stone!
If it’s dead, and it was Catholic: canonize it!!  It’s ear-tickling.  Most Catholic pew people LOVE to have their ears tickled.”

Cradle, Our focus is on Jesus in the Eucharist, which the early Christians had before they had a Creed or a single Bible.

Please tell me why the Apostolic churches did not subscribe to Sola Scriptura.

Our traditions go back to the earliest days of Christianity.

It’ the rest of you that cannot prove your nonsense, so you constantly twist and turn scripture.

“Judaism is focused on love of God, love of neighbor, ethical living.”

Lisa, Judaism was also sacrificial, until the destruction of the temple. In the absence of the temple the focus shifted from sacrifice for sin to just good works.

Lisa,

Catholicism is a continuity from the Apostles. The hierarchy does not teach what has not been taught before. You clearly did not learn a lot at your RC college.

The collective guilt of the Jewish people was not an official teaching of the church.

The Catechism of Trent in the 16th century made this clear.

As an ex-Protestant, I was subject to plenty of blood libel against Catholics such as they are cannibals, they killed the Bible Christians (who never existed) etc.

It was a sincere study of the Early Christians and their beliefs that turned me Catholic.

There are plenty of crazy people on all sides, but I prefer what is objective.

Born Again Cradle Catholic,

I understand that you feel that RCism is correct in its theology.  Every faith declares its theology to be the truth.  Christians believe that Jesus was the messiah.

Non Christians do not believe that Jesus was the messiah.  We will have to wait to see who, if any of us, is correct.

Please also know that Judaism is NOT monolithic.  Orthodox Judaism is but one way to be a a Jew.  There are several other ways. Just as Christianity is not monolithic, Judaism is not monolithic.

A lot of us Jews are happy that we have female rabbis. And even the Orthodox have taken small steps in this direction recently.  You might want to google the name Sarah Hurwitz.  So for many of us Jews, we go with Genesis—women and men are created in the image of God and that biology does not determine our access to God nor how we pray, nor anything else about our Judaism.

Joss, your communism theory is just plain nonsense. Communism has nothing to do with the current state of the RCC.  the issues of the RCC are issues that arise from Roman Catholics themselves—the hierarchy and to a lesser extent, those in the pews. 

Savvy,  I am not a prophet of anything, just a mere observer.  As that old Yankees catcher Yogi Berra one said, You can observe a lot by watching!  The problems of the RCC are clearly visible.  And while the gates of Hell may not prevail against the RCC, its corrupt hierarchy and other human factors just might. 

I am not anti-Catholic.  My pointing out that converts do not represent tue growth in the RCC is not anti-Catholic comment—its just a matter of the math.  And if you have not observed the flight of RCs from the RCC in the US, Europe, and around the world, you have not been paying attention.

I am not anti-Catholic.  I am however, totally against the corrupt hierarchy.  The concerted efforts of bishops and cardinals in the US and Europe to protect pedophile prieists is appalling, to say nothing of criminal (failure to turn in known pedophiles to the police, deliberately sending pedophile priests to other parishes to abuse over and over, and failure to protect children and families from known pedophiles are criminal acts in the US and probably in European nations as well).

In the 16th century the Protestant Reformation occurred and took hold—splitting the RCC into numerous other Christian sects.  One reason that happened was that the RCC failed to stem its internal corruption.  History tends to repeat itself.  Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  The RCC may now be at a crossroads similar to the one it came to in the 16th century.  How the RCC responds now, may have a multi-generational effect on its growth and/or moral credibility (or what is left of it).

“Within Judaism, biology does not restrict a woman. In Judaism, we seek to recreate the relationship that existed in the the Garden of Eden between God and people—that men and women stood as equals before God.”

In Christianity a person’s dignity and equality is not based on what they can or cannot do. We do not value people because they can do something, but because they are first people.

Feminists think that only if a woman can do what a man does, is equality then achieved. This places too much emphasis on utility or use of people.

Catholics say women are already equal by virtue of being human beings.

Jesus is enclosed within the womb of the sanctuary, the feminine church, just as he was enclosed within the womb of his mother Mary.

In the altar, therefore, the male priest represents this incarnational reality of Jesus Christ within the womb of the sanctuary.

When the bread and wine are consecrated by the priest, the priest in persona Christi then comes down from the altar and presents the body and bloody of Christ to His betrothed, the people of God. 

The word is once again made flesh and born from the womb of the woman-church, literally.

Savvy, I get it.  I think you do not get it.  Every tradition has had a beginning.  Every tradition began as something new, as something that did not previously exist. So what if there were no womn priests in the Temple era of Judaism? And yes, I understand that RC priests are not rabbis, but reflect the ancient Jewish tradition of the Temple priesthood in the offering of sacrifice. 

Again, none of your arguements against women in the priesthood make sense or are logical.  It seems the RC hierarchy may be listening to their own dead, irrelevant rhetoric on this issue, instead of listening to God.

Lisa:  I make no excuses whatsoever for the corruption that exists and has existed in the hierarchy and in the priesthood of the Catholic Church.  I am appalled by it and ashamed of it.  At the same time, I would like to point out that corruption in the hierarchy and priesthood of Judaism is a constant theme in the prophetic literature of Judaism.  Read Ezekiel (especially chapter 8).  Read Hosea (especially chapter 4).  Read Malachi (especially chapter 1).  Read Amos (throughout).  And that just scratches the surface!  I don’t point this out to you in order to denigrate Judaism or its leaders.  I have great respect and reverence for my roots in Judaism.  I simply point you to recorded history, a history recorded ABOUT Jews BY Jews.  If there is anything I have come to learn in my 45 years as a Catholic priest, it is this:  All human flesh is filthy and corrupt in the presence of the all-holy God.  I admire the canonized Jewish scriptures because they point out to us that God and God Alone is holy and that all human beings are sinful.  I hope that the day will come when all corruption and sinfulness will be rooted out of the Catholic clergy, but I am not optimistic that that will ever happen prior to the Second Coming of the Messiah.  Meanwhile, we muddle along as well as we can, trusting in the mercy of God.  And, when it comes to “modern times”, let me assure you that, in proportion to our relative populations (Catholic and Jewish) in the United States, there is every bit as much corruption in the Synagogue as in the Church.  If you think that Catholic priests are more prone to sexual misdeeds than are Protestant ministers or Jewish rabbis, you are sadly mistaken.  It is simply that the media are much more interested in publicizing Catholic corruption than they are in doing the same for Protestant and Jewish corruption.  There is a Talmudic proverb that serves to illustrate the reason for this.  It goes like this:  If God were to build his house on this earth, people would throw stones at it.  May God have mercy on us all.

Savvy, if the Temple is ever rebuilt, if there is a third Temple in the future, you have no idea if there will be women priests or not. That is something we Jews will have to work for ourselves.  Again, Judaims is not monolithic.  There is much, much more to Judaism than just Orthodox Judaism.  We have to use the term “Orthodox” because there are other ways of being Jewish. 

Savvy, you may wish to rethink your statement that the collective guilt of the Jewish people was not a RCC teaching.  The 600 yrs of the RC Inquistion (see one of my previous posts for the chronology of the Inquistion), in which Jews, were tortured, murdered, forced into ghettos, expelled form various European nations, forbidden to practice certain professions, compelled to wear clothing that identified them as Jews,and forced into conversion to RCism, speaks volumes about what the RCC taught about Jews.  Actions speak louder than words.

You say that Judaims is now “just about good works”.  Even Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God and each other with our whole hearts, monds, and strength—an echo of that commenadment found in Dt. And Pual said soemthing in Corinthians about love did he not?  So please do not make light of good works.

Rev Connolly,

I agree with much of what have just posted.  Yes, we are all sinful creatures.  And Lord Acton was correct in his assessment that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely—that is true of all human endeavors and organizations, religious and secular. 

As for corruption the synagogue:  Judaism is not monolithic.  So I can speak only to what I know of Reform Judaism—the movement to which I belong.  And I have not encountered corruption within Reform Judaism.  We have a national organization called the Union of Reform Judaism.  Many, but not all Reform synagogues belong to the URJ.  And while there has been recent disagreement within the URJ about direction—there have been no allegations of corruption or of sexual abuse. New leadership will take office at the URJ in 2012.

As for my synagogue in Phoenix—its the largest Reform synagogue between Chicago and Los Angeles—there is no corruption or sexual abuse going on.  I sit on the board of directors of the synagogue and so know that for a fact.  We have 3 rabbis and two cantors.  Our senior rabbi is a woman, and of the two assistant rabbis, one is a man, one is a woman.  Of our two cantors—one is a man, one is a woman. And we have large staff of religious school and early childhood education teachers and facility staff.  The synagogue is called Temple Chai.  Chai is the Hebrew word for life.

What I will say about our clergy is that each of them is a deeply spiritual person, each is deeply committed to Judaism, to the congregation (to each individual and to the congregations as a whole), to Jewish education and spirituality.  I never hear a dull sermon.  And being blessed with male and female clergy—we have a wonderfully spiritually balanced group of people (rabbis and cantors) on the bimah (at the pulpit).

For synagogues that have active lay-led boards of directors—the corruption/sexual abuse factor is very diminished.  As a group, we oversee finances, we hire and fire clergy (so no one rabbi or cantor controls what happens in the synagogue) we oversee as a group the operations of the synagogue.  We know what is happening with all aspects of synagogue operation.  That kind of active participation means that we all have a stake in our spiritual growth and developemnt as a congregation.

Again, I speak only from my experience as a Reform Jew, as a member of my synagogue and as a member of its board of directors.

Lisa,

Nobody is baptized into the hierarchy.  Nobody receives the priest sacramentally. If someone’s faith is not in Jesus and the sacraments, and in human beings, they will be disappointed.

There were many people who chose not to join the reformation, since no new doctrine was taught.

Trent was also the counter-reformation.

Our rule of faith is scripture and sacred tradition, not the actions of our priests.

I am fully aware of the objective teachings of the church, which did not teach the collective guilt of the Jewish people. There were even Papal pronouncements against things, but people never listened.

This is why I choose to be on the side to those who abide by the teachings of the church.

In the 16th century, the Roman Catechism (the Catechism of the Council of Trent) taught that Catholics, more than Jews, are the authors of Christ’s Passion:

“Besides, to increase the dignity of this mystery, Christ not only suffered for sinners, but even for those who were the very authors and ministers of all the torments He endured. Of this the Apostle reminds us in these words addressed to the Hebrews: Think diligently upon him that endured such opposition from sinners against himself; that you be not wearied, fainting in your minds. In this guilt are involved all those who fall frequently into sin; for, as our sins consigned Christ the Lord to the death of the cross, most certainly those who wallow in sin and iniquity crucify to themselves again the Son of God, as far as in them lies, and make a mockery of Him. This guilt seems more enormous in us than in the Jews, since according to the testimony of the same Apostle: If they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory; while we, on the contrary, professing to know Him, yet denying Him by our actions, seem in some sort to lay violent hands on him.”

Pope Martin V, Declaration on the Protection of the Jews, 1419:

“Whereas the Jews are made to the image of God, and a remnant of them will one day be saved, and whereas they have sought our protection: following in the footsteps of our predecessors We command that they be not molested in their synagogues; that their laws, rights and customs be not assailed; that they be not baptized by force, constrained to observe Christian festivals, nor to wear new badges, and that they be not hindered in their business relations with Christians.”

“Again, none of your arguements against women in the priesthood make sense or are logical.  It seems the RC hierarchy may be listening to their own dead, irrelevant rhetoric on this issue, instead of listening to God”

They make perfect sense to me.  You cannot be ordained into that which does not exist. Apostolic succession is from the 12 Apostles and the Mass is the sacrifice and feast of Christ, who himself presides over it. When the priests says “This is my body” He is not just repeating words, It’s Christ who is speaking these words.

Jesus is true God and true man, now and forever.

You can disagree with this, but our mind is made up on this issue.

It’s only pride that seeks to replace the unique sacrifice and the eucharist with something else.

“The problems of the RCC are clearly visible. And while the gates of Hell may not prevail against the RCC, it’s corrupt hierarchy and other human factors just might.”

Not even these factors you mention will prevail against the church founded by Jesus Christ.  Jesus does not break a promise or lie.

Matt 16:17-19

17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

A smaller purer church is better than people there for just show and tell.

Lisa,

Catholicism is also not a monolith. It has over a billion people with over 20 rites, both Eastern and Western. Our unity is our greatest strength. The reformation started new churches that lead to more churches and more divisions.  But, did not break our unity.

There are thousands of Protestant churches. There is still only Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Lisa,

I help run a Youth Ministry at my local parish.  We have over 200 teenagers and no abuse cases. Not a single one. We also have a zero-tolerance policy in place.

Does your synagogue have this many teenagers?

Our teens show up week after week , because they want to be here.

Savvy,

It is good to know that your parish does not have any sexual abuse problems.  The religious school at my temple goes from pre-kindergarten through 7th grade.  We have 158 children in pre-k through 3d grade; 171 children in grades 4-6 and 63 children in 7th grade.  Religious school for us means 1-2 days a week for religious education, culminating in bar or bat mitzvah.

Savvy,

Asise from our religious school we also have a Temple Chai youth group.  Not certain how many kids participate.  There are acutally 3 groups—a group for 3d & 4th graders, a gropus of 5th & 6th graders and a group for kids in grades 7-12.  Anyway, we enough kids participating that we have groups going.

Savvy, in describing your parish that has 200 teenagers and no abuse cases, you asked Lisa, “Does your synagogue have this many teenagers?”

Lisa had already written to us, “As for my synagogue in Phoenix —its the largest Reform synagogue between Chicago and Los Angeles — there is no corruption or sexual abuse going on.  I sit on the board of directors of the synagogue and so know that for a fact.”

Cradle’s reply-
Not only children and teenagers should be safe in Catholic parishes.  Catholic clergymen, all priests AND all bishops, ought not be having sex with ANYONE.  No sex outside of marriage for ANYONE.  Everyone should feel safe being in Catholic churches and around clergymen: men (ordained and lay), women, teens and children, should not be used for sex.

No person ought to be used as an object, used and later discarded, in a declared celibate priest’s sex life.

Lisa,

My parish also has an elementary school, and a high school across the road. It also has over 3,000 families. It’s very active too, with lots of volunteers and people taking an interest in things.

I live in Canada BTW. We still attend plenty of youth conferences in the U.S. and vice versa.

Most of the abuse took place in the 60’s and 70’s. There is a growing wall between the boomers and the younger Orthodox Catholics. The shocking thing is that the boomers still won’t admit they went wrong.

The most recent priest survey out of the U.S. shows that the average age is now 34 and has been trending younger for the past 5 years.

The same is true here in Canada, in Australia and the U.K.

Cradle,

You are preaching to the choir.  I don’ think as a Christian you should be promoting negative views about celibacy.  They are many people who chose to be celibate, who are not priests, such as people with autism, Christians who have a homosexual orientation etc.

It’s unfair to claim that their lives have no meaning because they are not married or are celibate.

Savvy - Please point out to me where I claimed a celibate’s life has no meaning.  I ask you because in my own family, I have 2 great uncles, and several cousins, both men and women, that are completely straight, and each has the gift of celibacy.  They live alone, and they are not fooling around with anyone: married or another single.

If I wrote here in this blog that their life had “no meaning”, I want to be sure not to make the same mistake in speaking with them.

It is not my intent to be “promoting negative views about celibacy”, rather it is my intent to just obey the Bible, and those specific qualifications for men in ordained ministry.

It is my intent to STOP priests and bishops from having “lapses”, where they have one foot on the altar, revered by pew people, and the other foot in a woman’s bed, or another man’s bed. That is unacceptable.  No sex outside of marriage, for anyone.

Cradle,

I see your point.

I too know many priests who don’t fool around with either men or women.