LOS ANGELES — In 2007, the Archdiocese of Los Angeles agreed to pay out a reported $660 million to about 500 plaintiffs who alleged that they had been abused by Catholic priests.
Now, more than five years later, the local Church’s grim history of clergy sexual abuse is back in the news with the release of personnel files of 14 accused sexual predators dating back to the mid-'80s; the contents of at least 75 additional personnel files will be published in the weeks ahead.
The confidential files were made available to the public under the terms of the 2007 civil settlement. The documents reveal that Cardinal Roger Mahony, the retired archbishop of Los Angeles, and his then-vicar of clergy were aware that some priests had sexually abused minors and, at least in some cases, the two expressed concern that the perpetrators might face legal consequences. The documents expose serious insufficiencies in the Church’s past efforts to keep such priests away from children without removing them from ministry or making their records public.
The picture revealed in interactive news stories with embedded links to the original documents provides a disturbing, if incomplete, portrait of Church authorities, decades ago, engaged in what the Los Angeles Times calls a “concerted effort to hide abuse from police.”
In a July 22, 1986, letter cited in a Jan. 21 article, then-Archbishop Mahony expressed concern that the return of a priest known to have molested undocumented children might prompt “legal action.”
“I believe that if Msgr. Garcia were to reappear here within the archdiocese we might very well have some type of legal action filed in both the criminal and civil sectors,” said Archbishop Mahony in a letter to an out-of-state facility where Msgr. Garcia was receiving treatment.
The names of deceased and living priests accused of child sexual abuse have already been disclosed in reports posted on the archdiocesan website. However, the names of Church officials who handled the cases are now fully accessible after redactions were removed following a ruling last month. Readers can access specific documents that chart the efforts of Archbishop Mahony, who became a cardinal in 1991 and retired in 2011, and his vicar of clergy, Msgr. Thomas Curry, now a Los Angeles auxiliary bishop, to monitor the progress of the priests under scrutiny.
The fresh headlines about cases dating back to the mid-1980s have revived demands that Cardinal Mahony and other Church leaders who failed to protect minors should be held accountable and face criminal prosecution. However, legal experts have noted that Church authorities were not required by law to report such accusations at that time and that the statute of limitations bars criminal prosecution.
The recent media coverage provides a painful reminder of the record of failure that led the U.S. bishops to approve, in 2002, the “zero tolerance” policy of removing from ministry all priests with credible accusations of child sexual abuse and promptly contacting law enforcement when allegations are brought to Church authorities. The Los Angeles Times reported that, in “a 2010 deposition, Mahony acknowledged the archdiocese had never called police to report sexual abuse by a priest before 2000.”
Both Cardinal Mahony and auxiliary Bishop Curry issued statements of apology for their past failures of judgment.
The Los Angeles Archdiocese’s lawyers did not respond to requests for comment.
Inadequate Policies
The documents from the personnel files dating back to the mid-1980s show that quiet efforts to restrict contact with children could not be fully enforced and left minors vulnerable to predators in a position of trust.
In 2004, the Los Angeles Archdiocese issued a report that, in part, sought to explain why it had failed in previous decades to protect children from sexual predators.
“Our understandings were more limited in the 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s. Experiences of personal violation were not as easily revealed to others. There was concern in families and in the Church for the privacy of victims, motivated by the conviction that actions that might disclose their painful experiences would produce intolerable suffering,” stated the 2004 “Report to the People of God.”
In the report, local Church authorities also repeated their pledge to fully enforce the U.S. bishops’ Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People, released in 2002, which requires prompt reporting of allegations to local law enforcement, a policy of zero tolerance for priests credibly accused of abuse and “safe environment” training for children and all Church employees and volunteers working with minors.
But documents culled from the personnel file of Msgr. Peter Garcia, a diocesan priest with an admitted history of abusing minors dating back to his 1966 ordination, show Church leaders handling abuse in a disturbingly different manner.
In a November 1987 letter to Archbishop Mahony, Msgr. Curry acknowledged the scope of Father Garcia’s criminal behavior, but made no suggestion that he should be reported to the police.
“[T]here are numerous — maybe 20 — adolescents or young adults that Peter was involved with in a first-degree felony manner. The possibility of one of these seeing him is simply too great,” wrote Msgr. Curry, expressing concern about the possible ramifications of Father Garcia returning to the archdiocese following his treatment.
Within two years, Father Garcia had left the priesthood, and he never faced criminal prosecution before his death. But Father Garcia’s personnel file also includes a letter from a local priest who was appalled that Church administrators had failed to aid the children harmed by Father Garcia and at times seemed “more concern[ed] for the criminal.”
Cardinal Mahony was named archbishop of Los Angeles in 1985, and Church records show that he was intimately involved in monitoring troubled priests and did act to remove some credibly accused priests before and after he took up his duties in Los Angeles. The personnel files do not explain how every case was decided, but they do underscore the problems of an ad hoc approach to dealing with clerical predators.
The Father Baker Case
One of the most tragic stories is Father Michael Baker, a laicized priest now serving time for sexually abusing minors.
The priest’s case was explicitly addressed in the archdiocese’s 2004 report, which, in addition to offering an explanation of the context of historic cases, listed information about past clerical abusers.
In 1986, Father Baker had disclosed his sexual misconduct to Cardinal Mahony and subsequently received a psychological evaluation and ongoing therapy in an out-of-state residential program. He was allowed to return to restricted ministry in local parishes and later was permitted to fill in for absent pastors without any notification of his past sexual contact with minors.
“Cardinal Mahony has publicly admitted his misjudgment in handling this case and has apologized for allowing Father Baker to remain in ministry. The cardinal admitted that he placed too much reliance on Father Baker’s perceived good faith in self-reporting and was far too lenient in permitting him to continue in assignments despite the boundary violations. This case brought to the attention of the archdiocese that placing a person in a restricted ministry was not sufficient to prevent future abuse. The lesson is that either much closer monitoring is needed, which is practically impossible, or the priest must be removed from ministry,” the 2004 archdiocesan report stated.
In 2005, a timeline of Father Baker’s ministry in Los Angeles was posted on the archdiocese’s website. The timeline notes Dec. 22, 1986, as the date he first met with “Cardinal Mahony and Vicar for Clergy Msgr. Curry to discuss his relationship with two boys from 1978 to 1985.”
Over the next decade, the timeline marks three separate meetings between the vicar and Father Baker to discuss “breaches” in his agreement to stay away from children, following his evaluation and treatment. It is noted that the observed contact was “non-sexual” in nature.
Then, an April 2000 entry points to the “first complaint by a victim” forwarded by an attorney. Two weeks later, Father Baker was removed from ministry; he was laicized by the end of the year.
However, a Jan. 21 Los Angeles Times story offers a more complete, if disturbing, picture of how Church authorities handled this case. The Times’ story cites a June 1987 memo to Archbishop Mahony from Msgr. Curry, which noted that Father Baker was slated to return from the residential therapeutic program and was expected to continue therapy. However, the vicar for clergy expressed concern that Father Baker’s new therapist would learn of his past misdeeds and contact the authorities.
In 2007, Baker would plead guilty to criminal child sexual abuse, and the Los Angeles Times story cites unidentified local authorities who “believe that Baker molested at least 23 boys in his 26 years as a priest.”
While some official timelines of accused priests offer few details of any oversight by Church authorities and others point to prompt action following credible accusations, Baker’s case offers a stark reminder that Church officials once sought to cobble together policies designed to protect priests from criminal prosecution while limiting their contact with children.
New Protections Instituted
The zero-tolerance policy subsequently instituted by the U.S. bishops has been criticized by some as unjust to falsely accused priests, but Father Baker’s story reveals that even when a troubled priest has contacted his bishop to seek help, the high rate of recidivism for sexual predators means that they cannot be trusted in active ministry. Further, when their supervising pastor was directed to “police” their movements, there was still no guarantee that children could be effectively protected.
The archdiocese’s 2004 report confirmed: “Now, all credible allegations involving living clergy are reported in writing to law enforcement by the archdiocese, whether or not the victim is now a minor and whether or not the victim or his or her parents have made a report. No offense will be hidden.”
Since 2004, the Los Angeles Archdiocese has been found in full compliance with the Dallas Charter in every audit of its archdiocesan implementation. The archdiocese has reported that in recent years nearly 200,000 clergy, teachers, parish employees, parents and volunteers have received safe-environment training, and more than 120,000 employees or volunteers who work with children have had background checks, including fingerprinting.
In a statement released Jan. 22, the archdiocese repeated its earlier pledge to report all credible allegations of sexual abuse, as the local Church steeled itself for a continuing cascade of damaging disclosures as additional court documents from the civil proceedings are published.
“The past cannot be changed, but we have learned from it. … [W]e remain vigilant against all that would harm our children and young people.”
Joan Frawley Desmond is the Register’s senior editor.
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Roger Mahony is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The 1980’s weren’t some far away time when people had no idea that this type of behavior was abominable. Why else would he repeatedly try and shield these predators from the police? He is just as guilty as the perpetrators when he failed to prevent them from repeating their crimes. However, nothing I read in this article surprised me in the least. This is the same Roger Mahony who did his very best to try and take EWTN away from Mother Angelica over an issue of his own bad theology. Now, looking back at him and Mother, all I can say is: “By their fruit you shall know them.”
One of the human mysteries of those decades is why didn’t fathers of boys beat the daylights out of these priests.
It would have been wrong but given human nature, why didn’t it happen. Fathers reporting them to police would have been right but that doesn’t seem to have happened either. I would have done one of those two things and only God knows which.
Cardinal Mahoney should be in jail. Whether or not reporting was legally mandated at the time is irrelevent. It is clear Cardinal Mahoney endangered children by allowing predatory priests to remain in ministry where there might be contact with young people.
Good night. These clergy should be prosecuted. I’m a 100% faithful Catholic and this is only leading souls away from Christ. WOW!
I must say that I would like to see Cardinal Mahoney stand trial for his complicity in the many sexual abuse cases. There should be no statute of limitations when it come to child abuse.
Cardinal Manoney has always been an embarassment to the Church and the body of Christ. I am ashamed of him and all the prelates who covered up these abuses. The Church deserves better leadership.
I am constantly appalled by what these priest did but not terribly surprised. As a seminarian in the early 80’s, I was warned that if people condone evil, any form of sex with anyone , anyway, ,, they will likely perform it when the situation arises. And indeed they did!... the bishops of the era, not all!, largely ignored Rome’s directives, the theologians totally ignored Rome and the great writings of Pope John Paul II—God help you if you used him in any of your major papers!.. you were mocked and ostracized. I experienced this along with thousands of other candidates to the priesthood. .. anything goes!.. they ignored “The Gospel of Life”,“The Splendor or Truth’....they were generally arrogant, only political, self-serving, and condoned all things sexual.. they didn’t even want to discuss it… the ‘religious’sisters were no better,,, of the thousands, only a handful thought killing of the unborn was wrong. We lived it,, we saw it,,it was horrible,and this is their legacy. We live according to what we believe… this is the most distressing thing since the Reformation,, to harm children in the name of the Church and the Gospel!.. how despicable. Those who don’t agree with Church teaching should at least have the moral integrity to leave the Church. THe damage they do and have done is deep and long lasting… they apparently have no fear of God!.. and they booted those of us who do and did out of their seminaries and ‘communities’..... the beat goes on , doesn’t it?. Half of all American Catholics voted for the most militant pro-abortion president ever!.. over and above what lesser value?> the Gospel?....hmmm… we are entering the crossroads, this can’t go on,, either you are ‘with Me ; or against Me.. those who aren’t, if you don’t want to serve the Gospel and the Church, please do humanity a service, and get out!.. ‘leave those kids alone’...what a horrible thing to do!, and with a roman collar on!.... I too somehow have to find a way to get over it.
An ordained priest is a priest forever; but why not petition the Pope to revoke Mahony’s “cardinal” status ?- he was not a prince of the Church, he was a prince of prevarication and perversion. Equallly as bad, some tried for decadesto get the truth out there about him and his minions, but the liberals in the Church and in the media forestalled their efforts.
some may have missed where the story said they cannot be prosecuted because the statute of limitations has expirec (not sure that is the right legal phrasing). i find it edifying that the once the scope of the problem was recognized they acted swiftly to implement effective organizational controls to prevent it from continuing or re-occurring. it gives me good reason to be supportive of the current leadership of the catholic church in the usa.
There is no doubt why the secular world has an aversion to our Catholic Faith.
Cardinal Mahony and Bishop Curry should be excommunicated by the Holy Father himself!!! Then stand trial by a jury of their peers in a United States Court! Its time to protect our little lambs from wolves and those who protect the wolves!
Events and going ons like this is why the era of “pay, pray, and obey” are finally coming to a close. The few people in the pews may finally demand that this is our Church, too.
While I understand the outrage most feel about the Cardinal, I feel that his main goal was to save the church and the beleivers, by quietly removing the problems, but as for the world, Satan has an upper hand in his demons (lawyers) to entrench themselves in the money of the church and its followers, they the lawyers are no less copable then the priests charged for these crimes.
You tell your children to go to church. You, try to explain to non catholics, catholic practices and the position of abortion. Why? catholics go to a priest to tell our faults and sins. And they all respond ‘Well, your faith is quick to tell others what to do,and at the same time criminally hide criminals who prey on innocent children.’ How can anyone respond anymore to this craziness by our past perverted fathers. I will never go awol on this great church. I pray for our new priest, who have found the truth. Any bishop or priest in the past who deliberatly, hid and paid out that kind of money {how disgusting) cardinal or not, should be removed from the church. And criminal and civil procedures should be persued against them. In the meantime ‘thank you’ I’ll still keep attending the greatest gift Jesus gave us. The mass!
one thing the past teaches us that IF we are open and listening with a Jesus-Heart we learn. One thing that Jesus teaches us is that we can never ever judge the heart of any person. The civil law can judge external actions, and is limited in the extent it legally may do do. One of the effects of Jesus’ teaching is that after we learn to avoid the Others’ sins and crimes, we can only receive forgiveness IF we forgive. End of His Lesson. Holding onto grudges, hatred and anger, however rational and seemingly just, destroys our Peace and keeps our stomachs amd souls in perpetual turmoil. Neitner would I destroy any person’s reputation based on an incomplete reading and understanding of what he wrote or she said. Mother Angelica was not all that Gospel=driven when she reacted to +Mahony’s pastoral on Eucharist, neither was she competent to judge it in the first place.
#1Jesus ALONE is Judge of the Heart. (We also know that civil law is not perfect either- just see the DNA evidence that cleared murderers, too late for some) # 2. Remove the plank from our eyes when we start probing the Others’ splinters. Those are from HIS GOSPEL
When I first heard of this about Cardinal Mahoney, it didn’t surprise me. I remembered how he fought with Mother Angelica and tried to take her and EWTN down. It seems to me that most of the bishops that protected molesters were liberal. Maybe I’m wrong.
I recommenmd a book, “The War on the Catholic Church- no prisoners of war, no cowards.“It is on amazon/kindle. if anyone would like a free copy,
email me at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
While I totally agree that anyone guilty of crime should be punished, I have to disagree with Paul’s statement:
“Those who don’t agree with Church teaching should at least have the moral integrity to leave the Church.”
The people who don’t agree with Church teaching are the very people who need the Church most, and we who believe in “The Gospel of Life” and “The Splendor of Truth” should be catechizing these people. If your Church or diocese isn’t set to help these people they can get resources through http://www.catholicscomehome.org/
This is a disgrace and an abomination! Why aren’t we Catholics uniting to protect both our children and our Church? We must demand that Cardinal Mahoney at least make a very public confession and beg forgiveness from all Catholics and all society in general. What is partly to blame, my belief, is the lack of faithfulness by our clergy and people in higher positions in the Church, ordained and lay, to live the Gospel and to PREACH it!
Also, we, the laity, need to become more faithful in learning what the Church, commissioned by God Himself, teaches and to NOT turn the other way when confronted by pressure to accept birth control, abortion, euthenasia, and so called “gay marriage.” Why accept the lies, ignorance and mediocrity when voting???
May God help us and have mercy on the Catholic Church and the USA!
bill bannon - You are right, the fathers of the victims should have shown their faces, if not their fists. However, studies show that many of the victims of clergy sex abuse, and abuse by other perps, are children of single mothers, another factoid that the mainstream media often ignores or fails to treat as a causal or coincidental factor - it’s politically incorrect.
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paul wood - You make many good points. This story also does not surprise me, and we know that the postmodern nihilism that started in the 1960’s did affect the seminaries for a while. I will not indulge in any more flogging of the RC Church on this issue, however, until a good accounting of all the child sex abuse by public school teachers is revealed, (as well as their co-conspirators - principals, superintendents, school committeemen, etc.). The biggest occasion of sexual abuse of children - in the public schools - will probably never be properly reported, due to bias in the media and because lawyers cannot sue municipalities and school districts.
Please do not confuse this issue w/ “left/right” politics in the Church. There are sexual predators and culpable bishops on both sides of the isle. This issue is much larger than a diocese or particular Cardinal. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool and not paying attention. The priesthood is rampant with this… along with several other issues such as homosexuality, alcoholism, mental illness, etc. The time for more transparency is long overdue.
Mahony the !@#$% of Babylon….
Don’t you think JP2 bears some responsibilty in this also? I love JP2 and have benefitted from Theology of the Body, Centissiumus Annus, and other writings, and I support his canonization. But still . . .
For many years, I have thought that Mr. Roger Mahoney(in my eyes he is not a priest) was a flaming liberal. Of course, he hid all these horrible acts. In some child abuse cases, judges have also given time in prison to the mother or father (in most cases the mother) who DID NOT protect their children. It is a fact that these unprotectors are worse than the abuser. So, yes, I have felt all along that these Cardinals, Bishops and pastors that protected the abuses should have to answer for these horrible actions of theirs. Somehow, this may help victims and those of us who are left in the Church see God’s justice through their prosecution as well. In the past I have thought of leaving the Church. But, I feel like the apostles when they said to the Lord, ‘where shall we go’. The Roman Catholic Church is the true Church with all the glorious Sacraments. Satan acting as an angel of light has always tried to destroy the church. In the book of Romans, you can see that Paul recognized that a person can be turned over to become a reprobate mind due to these types of abuses. We must recognize what evil really is. I once heard a protestant minister say that Satan doesn’t care about souls outside of the Church. He already has them. He really wants to divide us. We think just because we are baptized, confirmed, etc that we are untouchable.
Cardinal Mahony should be prosecuted. The damage this man has done to the Church with his heterodox views cannot be calculated. But if he is guilty of enabling these priests to abuse children no matter the reason, he is equally guilty and should stand trial for it.
Mahoney was a left-wing activist who spent his career pushing left-wing causes. If you remember, the 80’s and 90’s was about feminism and Gay Rights. He was in the forefront pushing this poison down the church’s throat. These crimes were perpetrated by homosexual men whom he supported and promoted. He is a charlatan and should be thrown out of the church.
There is nothing wrong with the Catholic Church that a decade of priest’s funerals won’t fix. God bless the young and stalwart priests that are up and coming. They stand for the truth.
Sounds to me that the Church had better get to the bottom of this issue and that is the seminaries…..It all starts there. I agree with what Paul Wood stated…it is not the first time I have heard this over the years.
I know a young lady who married in the early 70’s in Santa Barbara, CA. The officiating priest was accused of pedophilia [a school was connected to the Church]....he was transferred a few miles South to where my sister lived. [Another Church-school situation] He again was accused and this time the parents did not go to Church authorities, but straight to the police and he was arrested and for all I know still in prison.
This whole situation really upset me at first until I checked it out and found out it is in every denomination of Christians, Jewish and Muslim. Much of it is going on in the public schools, boy/girl scouts and anywhere there are children. It is societal and it is a mental derangement. So the secular world picks on the CC because if the CC goes down, the other denominations will follow.
I whish I still had the book, “Good By Good Men” so that I could name the author but readint it could give a very good explanation of how the Church got into this mess but during the early “womens movement,” & sexual reveloution of 60’s & 70’s the hard core feminist & homosexual croud took charge of many seminaries and it was very hard for any orthodox man to enter. Many turned down because they wouldn’t accept the idea that women should become priest, they were blacklisted. There’s a lot more to it but once evil enters, it can snowball into…........and it did. We must keep praying. This isn’t meant to be an excuse but it is a fact.
To be fair to the Church and clergy, up until about 1985 at the earliest, pedophilia was handled as a psychological condition that could be treated. Along about then an organization was formed by victims and families of victims called SLAM, Stronger Legislation Against Molesters, comprised of people who argued that molestation was not a treatable psychological condition at all, but a crime. Their position was based on evidence and several newer studies that proved psychological consoling does not make molesters “well.” They argued it was criminal behavior that requires locking offenders up for the protection of the public. They were successful in getting laws passed making it a criminal offense. The years between 1985 and 1988 where a transition period for these new laws to be enacted and applied. Certainly, by the late 1980s and early 90s, everyone dealing with children should have known about these new laws. Some in the Church leadership were slow to “accept?” these new laws and implement them perhaps out of misguided “mercy” for the perpetrators, and the drastic change the perpetrators were now subjected to compared to the past treatment they received.
I know of this change from a psychological condition to a criminal offense for pedophilia because I worked in a CA State Legislator’s office and we started being contacted by SLAM around 1985.
Most commenters miss the essential issue. Forget about civil law and its statute of limitations. What is key is that Canon Law has not been employed within the Church to discipline Mahoney and his cohorts.
His ‘intentions’ do not matter. His actions are what counted then and still do today.
A just response from the Vatican would be public censure, removal of his ability to use the title of Cardinal, and a requirement that he openly and publically and repeatedly demonstrate repentance. Just as he repeatedly protected bad priests under his jurisdiction.
Given the damage done, a simple “I’m sorry” is inadequate. Neither are his purported offering of masses for the victims of his mal-feasance.
If he hid the truth for 20 years, how about 20 years of public repentance?
Mahoney’s liberal views have nothing to do with child abuse.
Unless he repents, We can be certain that Archbishop Mahoney will be properly judged and fairly compensated. St. John Chrysostom comes to mind.
I agree w/ Ronald King that Mahoney’s liberal views have nothing to do with child abuse. Homosexuality also has nothing to do with child abuse.
However, someone with a liberal bent does not get his views from God; instead, his views come from “the world”. This is why the excuse for so long has been “we were given bad advice by Catholic psychologists”.
When Catholics in the pews begin to DEMAND that our church be structured the way we should KNOW it to be, according to St. Paul’s directives to Timothy & Titus (the PASTORAL letters), we can expect problems:
*we can expect Popes to make excuses for friends, such as JPII did with Fr. Marcial Maciel, not allowing an investigation into the numerous allegations against him;
*we can expect priests and bishops to have sexual relations, if not with children, then with teenage boys, girls and even impregnating women - remember Bishop Zavala of LA, last year?
*we can expect “Catholic” politicians, like Andrew Cuomo’s “Brave New Roe” to remain news, as God-honoring Catholics, such as most NC Register readers, cringe and continue to lament, asking questions such as this:
Guy McClung on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 10:55 AM (EDT) wrote:
“An ordained priest is a priest forever; but why not petition the Pope to revoke Mahony’s “cardinal” status ?- he was not a prince of the Church, he was a prince of prevarication and perversion”
1) It is Jesus that is a Priest, forever. Guy - read Paul’s 13 letters.
2) In Christianity, there are no “princes”. Princes are from the Middle Ages. Guy- read Paul’s 13 letters.
When Rome structures our church as Paul wrote of in his Pastoral Letters to Timothy and Titus, our church will see more health. Lastly, from what I learned, most children do not tell their parents when they have been molested, and priests and bishops are supposed to be trustworthy. If they listened to St. Paul, we’d be able to trust clergy of all ages, and those that are not worthy of trust would be weeded out, and not promoted, like Prince Mahoney.
Clerics with a liberal bent do not get their views from God. Instead, those views come from the world. It is why the bishop’s excuse for so long has been they were given bad advice by Catholic psychologists.
Until Catholics in the pews demand our church be structured the way it is described according to St. Paul’s directives to Timothy & Titus, the PASTORAL letters, we can expect problems. It’s a clerical mindset and it’s not from God. Do it God’s way: eliminate problems, and build trust.
@Terah James: I have also read that children do not say anything to family because the teachers tell them they will “fail” them if they tell and priest’s possibly say “they will go to hell if they tell”, or something to scare them. Kids get frightened and many people don’t believe them when they do tell. It is their word against an adults’ [teacher or priest or their Dad]. That is why these abused adults are coming forth now…they have had to live with this for many yrs. Can you imagine their suffering? I am sure it has affected them in some way.
I know one priest who left the priesthood after 25 yrs. and he said it was a lonely way of life. Now I think priests have more support programs. My thought is that why can’t they marry if they want. The Church accepts married ministers with family into the fold. Christ’s apostles were also married. Just a thought.
Exactly why we need to PRAY PRAY PRAY and continue praying for our priests!
Goodbye, Good Men is the book that Mark Schmalz referred to. The author is Michael S. Rose. I believe it is still available at Amazon. It is a real eye-opener to the problems within our clergy. I urge everyone to read it. And when you finish .......... PRAY!
This has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. The leaders of the Church deceived the entire world through the sacrament of Holy Orders which creates much greater harm spiritually than one can consciously comprehend. However, every time someone leaves our faith or some secular institution attacks our faith it is evidence of the spiritual harm that has taken place within the Church and has impacted the entire human family.
JMJ Something I’ve been struggling with is the Church teaches Homosexuality is intrinsically evil. So why would the Church ordain a Homosexual to the Priesthood? Or leave him active when he is identified? Well what does the Church mean by intrinsically evil? Even if one is sent to a Clinic, is the evil all of a sudden gone? Just doesn’t make sense. Two thousand years and we are still dealing with intrinsically evil homosexual Priests. Just doesn’t make sense. Viva Cristo Rey
the executives and management of the Catholic church are ultimately responsible for all this abuse and they should be charged in court for this and imprisoned if necessary as the victims lives have been ruined
Pat Denzer, These are child molestors. Please
the problem is not marriage. If priests were married, we would really never get access to them. As a father of 6 boys and having a full time job and working on a masters in theology, I would have very little time to prepare good sermons, visit people, etc. The issue is small family size for one. If we had larger CAtholic families, we would have more priests which would mean the priests could live in community instead of alone. Priests should live with other priests and it pains me to see one priest in one rectory covering 3 parishes. There is no brotherhood and spiritual help. Additionally, the seminaries need to screen these folks. I really wonder if the homosexuals purposely invaded the seminaries to bring down the church. But they forget, we have the promise….the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Married priests is not the answer, Catholics on contraception or not talking to their kids about vocations would solve a lot of this and the seminaries could be much more picky.
Sue (old), the main problem is that men are deciding to stay single. See: http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/it-is-not-good-for-man-to-be-alone
May I recommend you read the information contained at the following links about priestly celibacy?
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/celibacy-and-the-priesthood
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20111109_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930714en.html
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb63.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb72.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb79.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb80.htm
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Pat Denzer, it is the act (sexual acts) of Homosexuality is intrinsically evil, not the person(s) inflicted by it.
@Pat Denzer: The Church is not against homosexuals per se; only their life style [living with another [sexually] of his/her own sex] There are “clinics” whereby under psychotherapy, one can lose their infatuation with the same sex. Do they work? Some say they do and some say they do not. Because a person is homosexual does not mean they are pedophiles. Married men [dads] are also pedophiles. It is a societal problem and not normal. In the Bible Jesus said that man should not ‘be’ with another man, so it is evil [a mortal sin]to do this. This is my simple answer as I understand it.
What I read recently, true or not, is that if a married Minister accepts Catholicism and becomes a Catholic Priest, he can no longer have conjugal relations with his wife. This does not make sense to me, but who knows. Maybe someone misspoke. I shall have to check this one out.
Jesus’ Apostle were married and I do not know who declared that they [priests] should not be married…evidently a Pope in the past. I think it is a Church Law and not a Law of God. [someone correct me if I am wrong—I expect to learn something on this blog] In today’s world I feel they should marry if they want.
1 in 4 females are sexually assaulted before the age of 18; 1 in 7 males are sexually assaulted before the age of 18. Most people that have been treated inappropriately cope with it. It’s unfortunate, unfortunate things happen every day, but people move on.
Not all of these abuses, cited in the above statistic, are/were done by clergy. Some perps hang out where the chance of contact with children is higher (orphanages, scouts, elementary, middle, high schools, universities). We don’t hear so much about those places - is it because they aren’t perceived as having as much money as the Catholic Church?
I am not condoning the behavior of anyone and it was appalling, at first, to know that children were abused by someone in whom you place great trust. Clergy are human, just like all of you. We all mess up. We go to confession and try to do better. Should we have our mortal sins reported now?
Let’s move on and direct our energies toward preserving marriage and respecting all lives.
JMJ Years ago I was told in spiritual direction by my Polish Pastor, whom I believe should be Pope, Rev. Dr.———PhL, STL, PhD, speaks several languages, teaches at three Catholic U. and a Spiritual Director at our Seminary, was taught by JPII, and Cardinal Ratzinger told me it was Homosexual Priests.
I started researching and found Homosexuality and American Psychiatry the Politics of Diagnosis by Ronald Bayer. About the rebellion of homosexuals against being labeled mentally ill. Ch. 4 p.101 The American Psychiatric Association under attack: 1970-1972. “Gay activists in San Francisco saw in the presence of the APA convention in their city yet one more opportunity to challenge the psychiatry profession.” Using “Guerrilla theater tactics” Gay activists shouted obscenities and interrupted a briefing of “several hundred psychiatrists” “demonstrators exploded with the demand they be heard.” “A protester read a list of gay demands…” One physician was so afraid for his life he called for police to shoot the protesters. This was the calm before the storm.
Homosexuals wanted to present a panel at the next 1971 APA convention in Washington, D.C. Worried that they would disrupt the Washington DC convention they were allowed to have a panel represent them. “Frank Kameny turned to a Gay Liberation Front collective in Washington to plan the May 1971 demonstrations.” Using the floor plan of the hotel, Kameny developed a detailed strategy for disruption. Gays assisted by antiwar activists stormed into the prestigious Convocation of Fellows. Karmeny grabbed the microphone and took over. Using forged credentials, gay activists gained access to the exhibit area and demanded the removal of a marketing display. Threats were made against the exhibitor, who was told unless he take down the booth it would be torn down. It was taken down to avoid violence. Anyone that opposed homosexuality had left or was intimidated into silence. Their goal was the deletion of homosexuality from the APA’s official nosology, DSM II.
There is more but too much to mention here. But homosexuals succeeded in having themselves removed from the DSM II. I wonder how many homosexual psychiatrists were on the board to vote the removal. Imagine mentally ill persons voting to remove themselves from the DSM II. So you can imagine what this has done for their cause. Now Pedophilia advocacy groups are pursuing the same course of action.
On another note, nothing about the mental illnesses of those involved in the latest shootings is being discussed in the media. Viva Cristo Rey
“Jesus’ Apostle were married and I do not know who declared that they [priests] should not be married…evidently a Pope in the past.”
It was Pope Siricius (384-399) who asserted that clerical sexual abstinence was an apostolic practice that should be followed by all ordained in the Church.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14026a.htm
“I think it is a Church Law and not a Law of God.”
There are a few places in the bible that point to celibacy, off the top of my head: Jesus tells us that the apostles rightly left their wives and families to follow Him in Matthew 19:11-12 & 27-29
The below is a link to the book of Matthew in the Douay-Rheims Bible, which provides a good commentary on some of the more often misunderstood wordings in the Bible.
http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=19
Pat Denzer, Once again they are priests who have molested children of the same sex.
@ninov: Get real. Married Protestant and Evangelical Pastors seem to have no problem with fresh expository preaching on the word for 45 minutes or (longer) each Sunday. Catholic priests seem to struggle with filling only 7 minutes of very disposable homily time. And by the time the Offertory gifts are presented, people in the pew can’t even remember what the priest said. How often are you hearing some canned homily from two years ago or something plagiared from a book of homilies? At one Mass when the head of the Parish Finance Council spoke, the Pastor proudly announced “I lucked out —and don’t have to give the homily.” Imagine—such a comment coming from a “man of God” —with a “calling to preach the word.” ??? The issue is weeding out potential seminarians BEFORE they are admitted.
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Eliminating wacko feminist nuns or gay priests on the candidacy review board is one step as is having some laity who are not “Yes” men who do not bow, kneel and kiss the rings of Bishops. A further step is wrest control from the local Bishop and allow parishes to reject priests who aren’t doing the job. The church collects enough money to fund and house married priests (with families)—should they choose to marry. We are tired of priests being foisted upon parishes simply because Mommy thought it would be a good idea if Junior became a priest. The real fact is, men in the pew do not respect men who do not act like men. Those in charge have made poor decisions and are not men of integrity.
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The excuse is often made that we should not judge all priests by a few bad ones. That’s a failed argument. The church organizational structure prevents priests who know what’s going on from speaking out directly. Your parish priest will not go directly to law enforcement but moreover owes his allegience to his Bishop instead. Were your parish priest to go directly to the police, no doubt the Bishop would transfer him one of the most undesirable posts in your diocese. Obedience to God always comes before men. The USCCB should be reminded that Peter said that.
The comment above about the Great Pope John Paul and Cardinal Benedict is to be taken seriously,, the problem is NOT priestly celibacy, it is homosexualtiy, homosexual priests who has lost their consciences.. second, those theologians, and psychologists who have helped them to do so. the priest scandal, re: abuses, was also largely a homosexual cover up, only minorly ‘pedophilia… the statistics and facts bear that out. The issue is homosexual priests in the seminaries,, and I urge all to buy Michael Rose’s “Good Bye Good Men’.. especially immigrant priests. It is uncannily accurate, I lived it… and saw it all over North America. ..hmp! I still can’t believe that the priests I loved, and love the Church I loved and loved, as did my forebearers, that we have to write about this stuff..deeply disturbing. The Church must deal with homosexual priests!... no cover-ups, no transfers, screening, train for prayer and virtue, not to hate them, to show them love and mercy.. to deal with SIN,, that nasty reality very alive in 2013, about which modern theologians are in denial… if priest can’t speak the truth, especially at the pulpit,, what’s the point. Jesus died for sin. that’s the message.. it doesn’t mean to glorify nor to deny sin.. it means to identify it, deal with it, face it, saves us from it .... NEVER did seminaries and theology schools even use the word ‘sin’.. so far from the Christian message.. homosexual sins ,as all sins, must be addressed honestly and lovingly.. but not glorified or ignored. I urge all to stay loyal to the Church , to help heal the Church, no one loves more, gives more, has been holier!. May we stick together in love and prayer , and true to the Lord the Saviour the Giver of Life. Without Him and his/our Church we are bleak.. tough times, nothing we can’t handle!.. the truth will set us free/
Pat Denzer’s comments are the most important and enlightened here!.. take heed bishops!
Karen please dont trot out “The victims are only suing the church because they know the church has lots of money” argument; Not when we have hard evidence of Cardinal Mahoney shuffling priests around to shield them from civil and criminal litigation.
Also could you please refrain from using the ” Catholic clergy aren’t the only ones who’ve raped children” argument. I know priests aren’t perfect (neither am I ) but I do hold them to a slightly higher standard, one that asks them to refrain from raping children.
I don’t think I’ve ever read anything so callous and cavalier: “Most people that have been treated inappropriately cope with it. It’s unfortunate, unfortunate things happen every day,”
Losing your wallet on the train is unfortunate. Getting a flat tire in a rainstorm is unfortunate. Losing your sexual innocence to a mentally ill priest and later discovering you were one of several victims, and your cardinal helped keep his abuse secret until the statute of limitations was up is tragic.
“Should we have all our mortal sins reported?”
You’re right! I would never want a priest who learns of a serial killer or molester to actually do anything to help protect the public. That would be an abomination! And think of that poor serial killer! How embarrassed would he be!
Casting Crowns,
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Young men don’t enter seminary without pause because “Mommy thought it would be a good idea” and then just float on down the river to become ordained men without any question (their own or anyone else’s) as to what they believe and their conviction to the Word of God. The norm for priests is that they have grown in knowledge, faith and wisdom, and have passed certain emotional as well as knowledge based tests; but even this isn’t a guarantee, see CCC 1550
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In addition, I’ve personally known (grown up with or have seen grow up) close to a thousand young men who went to a seminary prep high school and decided that the priesthood was not for them.
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Out of the 1,000 over a hundred who entered college with the intent to study Theology for four years on their way to the priestly vocation and who for whatever reasons heard God calling them in another direction.
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Out of the 100 just six (three of them in the last two years) who were very close to ordination (into the deaconate) and discerned (on their own or with the help of others) they could not become priests.
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And only ONE who I grew up with was ordained a priest…
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Not to mention the four men who I met as married men but were ordained priests prior to discerning that God had called them to marriage.
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All men - ordained, married and single are called to be “real men” and live priestly lives.
Pray for holy priests!!. A Catholic priest that abuses children even if he could get marry this will not affect him because he is a pedophile. Priests are married to the church and this will NEVER change. There are abuses in all religions and thru the years the Catholic Church has had ups and downs. ALL children in the world that are being abused physically, emotionally or taken as child soldiers are always in my prayers. God Bless the Catholic Church!!!
Re: fathers, yes many of the victims are children in families runs by a single mother. However, I had one incident in my life of child abuse from a lay (non-Catholic) camp counselor. I was probably six or seven years old in the late ‘50s, early ‘60s. I had a good relationship with my mother and told her immediately. My father was dead. My mother was a fireball and went to the head of the camp and complained about the 18 year old “man.” He was give another job—not working with children, but I still saw him every day. I have prayed about this, and I see the problem as a child making an allegation about an “adult.” Can you imagine how hard it would be in the ‘50s or ‘60s to tell your mother that Father xxx did something. And then to be believed by her, and then for her to be believed by a bishop? It is a child making the allegation against a so-called “holy” priest. Tragically, from this article it sounds like they were preying on children of Mexican immigrants (legal or otherwise). Their families were probably afraid to say something. And then look at my situation. It took place in an entirely secular context in the same time period and the result was the same: they moved the man to another job, not directly working with children, but NEAR children. I am not defending any bishops who covered this stuff up, but I am simply thinking about how it could occur. I agree with all the writers who cited the dreadful formation of men for the priesthood during that time, and actually my husband has said there is a startling loss of fatherhood/manhood among some men who became priests at that time. They were not real men. Good priests are real men, real fathers. And real men will fight to defend their children. I think the bishops should try to find candidates for the priesthood who have this characteristic of good fatherhood, not milk toasts. But during the 1950s and ‘60s we were seeing a startling exodus of men from the priesthood, and I think the bishops were desperate to keep up the numbers of priests so the people could have the sacraments. And clearly, the deterioration of our culture due to the general acceptance of contraception and abortion is really at the heart of our society’s problems, both the destruction of marriage and the family, and the destruction of the priesthood. The two go hand in hand. So you have children victimized by priests because their families were broken up by contraception and infidelity. And many priests failed during this time period to preach against contraception or abortion, so many more families were destroyed, and then no one was around to protect the children when a small number of bad eggs preyed on them. It doesn’t even have to be a priest who preyed on the children. I know people abused by so-called good Catholic fathers, who were serial abusers of kids. And I’m sure the number of incidents of pedophilia in the secular schools and camps far outnumber the the amount in the priesthood. It’s just we expect our priests to act better. I think we have to see the problem as part of larger problem we had in society as a whole.
And don’t forget Our Lady of Garabandal predicted this stuff in the 1960s. Nobody believed her. Also it was predicted that the smoke of hell would enter the Church for 100 years. We’ve been through a terrible trial. It may take 100 years to recover our church’s respect in the rest of society. Doing door to door evangelization for the Catholic Church 1980-2012, I noticed there is a lot of angry people in the general population who hate Catholicism because of what happened. We should take responsibility: pray and do reparation—for the Heart of Jesus has been cruelly wounded by those closest to Him. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com
I read today =MAHONY is forbidden to speak by the new Archbishop, =Curry resigned as auxiliary bishop. A post I wrrote yesterday that Mother Angelica was not quaoified to judge + Mahony’s famous pastoral on Sunday Mass as she is not a trained biblical scholar theologian was not approved, She apparently resigned from the board chair role to keep the Bishops off EWTN. So much for a parallel hierarchy and promoting kneeling and Latin and baby-tongue feeding for the Body of Christ, denial of the Chalice, both late nedieval currputions, even if still tolerated: harping on abortion, which is correct, BUT not to the neglect of the whole rainbow of the Gospel of Life as EWTN does in daily Mass and Intentions, with the exception of Fr Joseph’s Family Prayers which lift us out of the daily narrow intentions, except Fr Anthony who ad libs some for world trouble spots. Hearing prayers for abortion, Mother A and the MFVA and someone’s sick Momma get so old for those of us in the BIG BAD WORLD where war, refugees, murder of missionaries, burning of churches, islamic extremism are also GOSPEL OF LIFE issues. I deeply value the nework as a handicapped believer retired now, but long for the days when my church community was authetically Roman and Catholic and an orthodox but not pasrtisan in its Apoltolic teaching and practice
Paul Wood and Pat Denser, This is about sexual predators who prey on the innocent and vulnerable. Their sexual orientation is not the determining factor in their sick behavior.
Please please, when appropriate, use the correct words - “pederast,” and “pederasty.” And a simple question: why did AB Gomez have to wait until damning documents are made public before suspending Card Roger ? Fear not, Jesus is still with His Church; it is His Mystical Body and He jealously guards us.
Patti.RCIA- wrote: “Not to mention the four men who I met as married men but were ordained priests prior to discerning that God had called them to marriage.” Please will you explain how FOUR men got the wrong message from God, and how God’s timing was so bad? God called these men to marriage AFTER they were ordained priests? I know a cradle Catholic man that wanted to be in the ordained ministry, he is Catholic, very conservatie in every way, but he knew he did not want to be celibate. So he became an Anglican pastor. He’s married with three children, pastors a very small parish - because this area is ultra liberal, and he works as a grammar school teacher, to support his family. He still has time to write articles in our local secular newspaper, on issues such as: Pro-Life, Traditional Marriage, one man and one woman; no embryonic stem cell research. For his articles, he takes flack. This, while every Catholic priest and our bishop stays mute.
Secondly, it is not only homosexual clergy that are responsible for our church problems. Look at Bishop Zavala of Los Angeles that fathered two teenagers, and most of the scandals that have come to light in recent history involve clergy (many famous clergy too!) having relationships with women and even fathering children. Zavala’s diocese is helping to support the children, that are nearing college age. If they are very intelligent, perhaps both children will go to an Ivy League university, and it will cost a cool fortune. When more lay people have to dig into their pockets to pay for the clergy and the bishops that overlook what they do, perhaps things will change. It wasn’t until the Year 1139 that celibacy in the universal Latin rite church was made mandatory, and it is only a PRACTICE that even Rome admits can change tomorrow. Read God’s word in context, and in its fullness, for a refreshing change.
Terah,
It’s entirely possible that they didn’t “get the wrong message from God”.
There is a unique calling for each of us.
We are all human.
“I know a cradle Catholic man that wanted to be in the ordained ministry, he is Catholic, very conservatie in every way, but he knew he did not want to be celibate. So he became an Anglican pastor.”
It’s a shame that he left the Catholic faith. I assume that he was Roman Catholic, as he could have married if he were, for example, a Marian.
BTW, Thank you for the personal slam. I don’t know why you think that I haven’t read God’s Word in context and in its fullness - maybe you are the only one able to do so?
Patti.RCIA - With due respect, you’ve not even read all my posts in context and in their fullness. Further, you’ve not answered any of my direct questions about matters of eternal importance, or about what’s going on in real life in the church (like Bishop Zavala). So it’s reasonable to surmise you do not know the entirety of Christian teachings found in the Old and New Testaments: God’s own word. My point is merely an observation, and if you find it’s true, there is always today to start reading the New Testament letters, easy reading. Or try the EWTN audio New Testament that’s dramatized - and listen to it. It’s excellent.
Patti RCIA, according to Terah she is “catholic”, but I have read her posts and to me does not seem like she is Catholic, take a look to her posts in “Ask Fr Barron what to say to Catholics who struggle with church teaching”
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/matthew-warner/ask-fr.-barron-what-to-say-to-catholics-who-struggle-with-church-teaching
Let’s see: I had a Pastor who celebrated his 25th anniversary as Priest and a couple of years later left the Priesthood to marry. He told a small group of us that being a priest was a very lonely vocation. In a nearby town there was another Priest who counseled married couple, and realized that “married life was for him” so he got married. Then again, I knew a priest who got a young widow pregnant and though he said he loved being a priest, he did the right thing, left the priesthood and married her. Then, our one gay priest, who gave the most excellent sermons and who was a good priest, left the priesthood because the Charasmatics in our Church made life unbearable for him.
When one’s husband is transferred from one State to another, you hear/see a lot. The church I attend today is very different. It is not as reverent as those I have attended in the past. One huge Host is elevated during the Eucharist, then broken up in pieces and then the priest scoops it up with two hands to place in the 4 Chalices (2,000 families in this Church). People dress like they are going on vacation to the beach with jeans. Priests joke on the Altar (everyone today is a comedian, including the President of the U.S.) This past Sunday we had a visiting Priest (who said he travels around) and he had the congregation laughing quite a number times, we were really entertained. Also the music from the organ is terrible. I guess I compare this to a small Church I went to in another State, whereby we just had a keyboard instrument and the pianist (a gay man) played the most beautiful music at Communion, the kind that puts one into God’s presence of meditation, so that one would forget all the people passing by, going up to receive the Eucharist. I, personally, still do not like the Mass in half English, half Latin….I much prefer English. All that is mentioned above has been happening since 1962 when we left NY. Anyway, I have learned to separate the Priests/Bishops of the Church (who are just ‘people’ like me)from what Jesus taught us. We just have to get back to better morals, which is next to nil today. By the way the more Reverent Masses I have attended in the past was the “folk Mass” when they started vernacular in Church. Very reverent and very beautiful and everyone participated in the Word and in singing.
Terah, Honestly I haven’t even read ALL of your posts… I responded to a few people further up in the thread and to you directly when you called me out. I feel honored that you think that I would know the answers to all of your questions (I am guessing from the lists you posted way up there in this thread?), but I am going to have to decline answering them.
As for your friend who became an Anglican/Epsicopal priest, should he choose to come home to the Catholic Church he would be able to do so through the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter http://www.usordinariate.org - I don’t know if he’d be allowed to remain a priest. He’d have to ask about that. (If he were then he would definately have to take some additional classes, etc. before being ordained.) Also, I wanted to clarify that when I mentioned he could have become a Marian(ist) I meant the order; not Maronite, the Eastern rite. (We have both in the area where I live - St. Louis. Though I don’t know a great deal about either.)
Mary, Terah and I have corresponded previously. I have known many converts to Catholicism who after full initiation through RCIA have continued to study the faith on their own and suspect this may be the case with Terah - please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Mary: Patti.RCIA is correct. I am a Catholic convert, having come from an Evangelical background before abuses such as these actions in Los Angeles and Boston came to light. I may not sound Catholic because I continued to study God’s word individually, and in a group. It is at a Catholic parish where mostly Catholics meet with a few non-Catholic Christians, it began many years ago, after an Alpha gathering, also in a Catholic church.
My biggest gripe about fellow Catholics is I cannot communicate with 99.999% of them about anything of eternal value, not even with priests, that are so entrenched in Catholicism: Sacraments and the Eucharist, that God’s word is more like a special token brought out on Sundays, for show, but not to learn, obey and have it as a Guide.
Because I like to discuss God’s word, outside of our little group (of 15-20 people) that meets each week, I’m considered almost radical: “You sound Protestant”, the average Catholic will say. If you want to talk about Mary’s last message at Medjegorgie, many can quote her, and give you the date and time she spoke.
If you want to talk about Social Justice - they’re all over it, front and center at every new cause. But God’s word is a big yawn; talking about God’s word is taboo because they’re ill-equipped to discuss it. A standard response to my attempt to discuss Scripture with fellow Catholics after Mass is: “Talk with Father. See what he says…”
@Patti.RCIA: I read with interest the comments from Terah James. I was on our parish RCIA team about 12 years ago. A catechumen was asking questions regarding the Book of Romans. The RCIA leader at the time was the Pastoral Associate—a feminist nun who promptly responded “We don’t need to talk about Romans.” Futhermore, this nun announced “You do not need to believe the first 11 Chapters of Genesis to be Catholic.” The catechumen then asked: “What else about the Bible do I not have to believe?” The team was essentially reduced to being potted plants and those who serve coffee and treats so this nun could have total command of all “Catholic” instruction. While it appeared this catechumen knew her Bible, the other prospects did not.
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Terrah James is correct. It’s one thing to hear the gospel and readings at Mass (which, btw, are often only snippets out of context in which clergy rarely provide background for those in the pew), it’s yet a completely different matter for people to gain and understanding of God’s word. It is there where He reveals Himself, His character and how He operates. It’s absolutely astounding how people can have more interest in canonized saints, church relics, Vatican artwork and prayers written by people they don’t even know than that of Christ Jesus. It’s not that these other things are not interesting, but if Christ the Lord is not THE priority above all else, one’s priority needs a do-over.
I’d say that ALPHA is the main reason most Catholics say you sound “Protestant”. ALPHA is NOT Catholic. As a Catholic I am stunned that it is still promoted for use in Catholic parishes.
I would highly recommend anyone interested in the Catholic faith to watch the new Catholicism Series http://www.catholicismseries.com/ videos to learn what Catholics really believe and practice. As I type this, my Church is showing this series for the third time since they bought it last fall. They are presenting it in an eat, watch, discuss in small groups, and then open questions & answers with our Msgr.
The Bible issue doesn’t surprise me. Many Catholics are unable to quote any of what is contained in the Bible and haven’t studied it to any thorough extent - much less read footnotes and various Catholic commentaries on what they have read. So I understand how those that you’ve spoken to would feel threatened when someone who knows more about the Bible confronts them with questions. The joke goes something like this: Ask an evangelical where in the Bible is (anything) and they’ll be at least able to name the chapter… ask a Catholic and they’ll ask, “What PAGE is that on?” :blank stare:
That said, the Bible is not “a token only taken out on Sundays”, in fact, if you were to attend Mass every day for three years consecutively, you would have read nearly 80% of the Bible. Sundays the Gospel is broken up into three years, ingeniously called: Year A (mostly Matthew), Year B (mostly Mark), and - drum-roll please - Year C (mostly Luke)... each year has some John mixed in for Holydays. In addition to the Four Gospels, the OT and an Epistle are read, and a Pslam is usually sung at Sunday Mass. Weekdays the Bible is broken up into two years - Year 1 (odd numbered years - 2013, 2015, etc.) and Year 2 (even numbered years- 2014, 2016, etc.).
Many other Catholics DO read and study the Bible… we read and study it in light of the Catholic Churches teachings; and hopefully not off in a dark corner by ourselves to decipher it any way that suits our needs at the moment. As for myself, I happen to have 4 versions of the bible (my favorite bible has post-it’s and notes scrawled all over the margins), numerous commentaries and a concordance - all of which I use on a frequent basis. Ok, so maybe my boyfriend had good cause to look at me cross-eyed the first time he saw the Catholic book shelves at my house… but I still wouldn’t be able to quote the entire Bible from memory like at the end of the movie, “The Book of Eli”.
Enough of my snarkiness - time for bed! Sleep well & God Bless!
Terah Just as a suggestion you may want to watch in the t.v. EWTN, they have a program called “The Journey Home” if you have Direct TV is free but if you have Time Warner you have to pay for the channel.
But EWTN is also in the internet here is the link:
http://www.ewtn.com/tv/live/journeyhome.asp In this program converts to Catholicism talk about their journey with Marcus Grodi another convert.
I have been reading your posts, sorry to tell you but your conversion seems that is not total at least not to me.
You may want to look into Dr. Scott Hahn also in EWTN, he is a convert he talks about the bible all the time and he is a professor in the Franciscan University, here is the link
http://www.ewtn.com/tv/prime/scotthahn.asp
Personally I think Dr. Scott Hahn will be best for you since he is a convert and he talks about the bible, he also wrote books, I also believe he has a school, Paul’s something I can’ remember the name. EWTN might have something in their web-site
Also the program from EWTN with Fr. Mitch Pacwa, it is called “Threshold of Hope” you can send your questions. EWTN has also programs that you can hear. EWTN has a wealth of information about Catholicism and the Bible that is so important to you.
If God allowed wrong men to the priesthood does not mean that we as Catholics should speak bad about our religion or priests, we as Catholics pray for them, their victims and for holy priests. The Virgin Mary in Fatima in 1917 predicted all these things would happen.
Maybe if you would pray to God to guide you the way He wants you to go, He will help you in His infinite Mercy.
I will be praying for you too! God bless you always!
P.S. I apologize if I hurt you in anyway for my comments.
Patti.RCIA - Alpha is 100% Christian. All solid teaching & containing matters of eternal value and great importance. This was a gathering of 5 local Roman Catholic parishes. How is Alpha not “Catholic”?
Mary - No harm done. I appreciate your comments. Thank you for the links. I listen to Catholic radio often. I find when the average Catholic calls in to talk programs, they often begin with, “Is it okay if I…...” and often they ask about trivial matters.
Like “Is it okay if I take my scapular off when I shower?” Or “I say a rosary every day and I’m beginning a Novena, so will my one rosary count as the Novena rosary?”
Saddest of all is these people are serious. When someone like Scott Hahn answers people like that, he can take the Bible out of context to suit whatever he wants to say, and the average Catholic thinks it’s fine, it’s like taking candy from a baby. Ask them tough questions, and most of the Evangelical converts to Roman Catholic evade the issue. I’ve heard them slide over to other verses, taking the Bible out of context, to prove a point. They didn’t learn that in Evangelical school.
Most ALL famous Evangelical converts first had some kind of problem in their own denomination before they saw Rome as the panacea for them, and of course, now they WORK for the Catholic church, so it’s not just a belief for them, it’s employment. I’m just a person in the pews. So I stick to God’s word, and use it in context, for my daily life. My livelihood depends on God, and on pleasing Him, not on any thing or anyone on earth.
Terah;
I never said ALPHA is not Christian; I said it is not Catholic. (All Catholics are Christians, not all Christians are Catholic - but we already know this.)
It has been a long while since my encounter with ALPHA but I do remember that, by commission and omission, the ALPHA material proposes an ecclesiology and a sacramental theology contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church. The methodology used in the small group discussions held after each ALPHA video session acted against the principle of religious freedom upheld by the Catholic Church. (To me it felt like high-pressure sales of a faith leading away from the Catholic Church.)
The questions were formatted in such a way as to elicit specific responses based on the ALPHA criteria and makes it nearly impossible to answer any other way without sounding incorrect and argumentative with your group. (The “Little Rock” scripture study is also notorious for this even though “Little Rock” is Catholic.) This does not respect and protect the right of participants to freely answer and clarify points from the objective criteria of the Church’s teaching when the need arises.
ALPHA implicitly rejects several of the Catholic Church’s teachings, particularly the Immaculate Conception. ALPHA also asked us to all pray for the gift of tongues (what they consider a beginners gift) and the gift of healing through laying on of hands - neither of which is implicitly wrong according to the Catholic Church; however ALPHA implied that if you don’t have the gift of tongues, etc. that you aren’t in God’s graces. In other words, ALPHA silences the Church’s teaching and encourages the ALPHA dogmas to stand, develop and be absorbed. (Sorry for the pun.) The Catholic response is that everyone does not have the same gifts or the same vocation in life. This is biblically backed up in 1 Cor 12, 4-30 In v.31 it does tell us that we should ask for gifts, but that doesn’t mean that we should expect to receive all of them.
The joke I mentioned wasn’t about famous evangelical converts, just evangelical converts in general. Since I don’t know the specific verse(s) that were questioned or the responses I can’t answer for those who did respond. When I am questioned about a verse, I usually start by pointing to the verses before and after the specific verse in question because often those lines hold the answer to the question being asked, however, sometimes it is necessary to refer to other verses in addition. That is not necessarily a form of evasion.
Casting Crowns:
It sounds like you had a real problem on your hands in RCIA, had I been in that situation (and I’ve been in similar ones) I would have spoken to the associate pastor (assuming there is one) and/or the pastor. If I received no satisfaction from them I would have written a letter to my bishop to explain the situation and ask for guidance.
The Gospel readings at Mass are almost always proceeded by readings out of the OT that compliment them exceptionally well. Sometimes the reading from the epistles (letters) leaves one miffed as to how it applies to the overall context of the other readings of the day, but if your priest gives a good homily on the Gospel there should be no doubt as to what God’s message is on any particular day.
It sounds like you have had some really poor catechisis at your Church, and I am sorry for that… and I can understand why some would leave in that situation. Someone once told me that people leave the Catholic Church because of the people in it, but I suspect that if those that leave had much faith they’d find another local Catholic parish to attend.
I’m not asking to get the speck out of anyone’s eye, because I know I have a beam in my own eye.
Patti.RCIA - I know a woman that is in every Catholic organization you can imagine, and she even hosts studies of renew in her home. She has two sons. The eldest is going to marry a woman that’s divorced (it’s his first marriage) and much older than the young man. They plan to marry at the beach, by a friend that will get a one-day license to officiate. Then they plan to have a church wedding. There are several non-Catholic churches (Bible believing) that would not touch a wedding like that, because the couple has been living together for 7 years. So, is this couple Christian? Both are baptized Catholic, and often go to church in their community.
Patti.RCIA- the Alpha program we had was *not* like what you described. I do *not* speak in tongues. I know a few people (all Catholic, by the way) that do hold great value in that gift. But I noticed when they get together, nothing is done to spread the Gospel, or edify anyone else. It makes me uncomfortable. Gifts from the Holy Spirit are to BUILD UP the church, and to create unity, not division. Too many people that speak in tongues, or claim to, are placing value on the “gift” instead of The Giver, showing it is likely not from God.
Our Alpha was great, and it only spoke about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Church. Discussions were kept to those topics and we did not go down rabbit trails or off subject. We had moderators at each table. It was wonderful. Of the 120 people that gathered from the local parishes, 15-20 of us still meet today.
This ‘cardinal’ should be behind bars ! Now he’ll get a chance to elect a Pope using his superior intellect & reasoning. Is it any wonder the sodomites are in charge !
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