SACRAMENTO, Calif. — Legislation to prevent psychotherapists from helping young clients diminish homosexual feelings or desires is rapidly making its way through the California Legislature.
Senate Bill 1172 would prohibit so-called “reparative” or “conversion” therapy for persons under age 18 and require adults who want to try the counseling to sign a release form stating the therapy is ineffective and possibly dangerous.
Introduced by State Sen. Ted Lieu, D-Torrance, S.B. 1172 is sponsored by Equality California, a San Francisco-based homosexual activist group.
“Sexual-orientation conversion ‘therapy’ isn’t just ineffective; it’s dangerous — even deadly,” said Rebekah Orr, a spokesperson with Equality California. “Adults who undergo these discredited treatments are at high risk of depression, self harm and suicide. For minors — often forced into these abusive treatments by well-meaning but misguided parents who are misled by unscrupulous therapists — those risks are even more pronounced.”
Wayne Besen, executive director of a group called Truth Wins Out, which fights what it calls “anti-gay extremism,” said reparative therapy “is just consumer fraud designed to enrich people at the expense of the mental health of others, and certainly nobody under 18 should get anywhere near that, because there’s coercion involved by its very nature. We’ve got parents trying to tell kids, ‘You don’t change, we won’t pay for your college.’ It’s very manipulative.”
“Gays become very angry at the term ‘reparative therapy’ as if someone will try to repair or fix them,” said clinical psychologist Joseph Nicolosi, who heads the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic in Encino, Calif. “In fact, our clients find the term consoling since it says, in essence: your behavior does not make you ‘weird, a degenerate or a pervert.’ Rather, your homosexual behavior is your attempt to repair what you did not get as a child, but it doesn't work. We can show you other ways to fulfill your emotional needs."
Robert Spitzer, considered the father of modern psychiatry, recently recanted a study that supported the use of reparative therapy for same-sex attracted persons who are highly motivated to change.
The political alternative to reparative therapy is “affirmative therapy,” an "embrace-your-gay-identity" approach that gives clients acceptance and support to handle the stress of same-sex attraction.
Seeking Amendment
The California Psychological Association (CPA) opposes S.B. 1172 unless it’s amended. Although the CPA and a coalition of other mental-health professionals have “grave concerns” about a person attempting to change his sexual orientation in therapy, “we also have a concern about using the legislative process as a means of dictating professional practice,” said CPA Executive Director Jo Linder-Crow.
Not only would the legislation “create a broad opportunity for someone to bring legal action against a psychologist,” Linder-Crow said, but the informed-consent form written into the bill is too precise and dictatorial, not allowing individual therapists enough flexibility to adapt the form to their own private practices.
Calling the bill “well-intentioned” but “flawed,” Linder-Crow said, “We are working very hard with Senator Lieu’s office in an attempt to fix it.”
Nicolosi said , “The two big unanswered questions are these: Is reparative therapy effective? Is it harmful?”
Perhaps not surprisingly, no one can answer these questions with any scientific certainty. “Because the mental-health professions have failed to address these two issues,” Nicolosi said, “they’ve left a gap, a vacuum in the science, which is being filled by gay activists who are pressuring the legal system.”
He adds, however, that neither is there “evidence as to the effectiveness of gay affirmative therapy. It is so politically correct that it goes unquestioned.”
Pointing out the difficulties of demonstrating a benefit for any form of psychotherapy, psychiatrist Jeffrey Satinover said there are too many human variables in therapist-client relationships to design rigorous scientific experiments to prove the “results” of this or that approach one way or the other.
If you’ve got “a good psychotherapist sensitive to the needs of clients, one who respects their autonomy and right to self-determination, such a therapist will be neither ‘affirmative’ or ‘reparative’; they will follow the wishes and inclinations of the client. They will not come into therapy with a predetermined ideological viewpoint,” said Satinover, who has a private psychiatric practice in Weston, Conn., and has also taught constitutional law at Princeton University.
“Slapping a label such as ‘affirmative’ or ‘conversion’ onto psychotherapy,” Satinover explained, “is an essentially propagandistic act.” He said it is all “just psychotherapy.”
When Politicians Attempt to Be Doctors
Unfortunately, psychological scientific literature is written in jargon not easily intelligible to non-experts.
“Psychotherapy is a medical treatment (to use the term loosely), and you don’t have lawmakers outlawing one form of appendectomy vs. another because they know full well that they have no expertise to make that kind of judgment,” Satinover observed. “It is absolutely inappropriate for non-experts such as Senator Lieu to think that he has an expert opinion that should be written into law.”
Even the wording of the bill indicates that Lieu — “probably without being aware of it” — has “made reference to claims by the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association that these organizations absolutely do not make,” Satinover said.
An American Psychological Association task force report three years ago stated that there were “no scientifically rigorous studies” to make a definitive statement about whether reparative therapy was safe or harmful and for whom.
According to Satinover, the bill also represents “an absolutely unwarranted intrusion by the state into the private lives of individuals. The principle of autonomy, self-determination, which in constitutional law is referred to as liberty, is so essential in our country that it’s amazing to me these lawmakers don’t understand that this kind of authoritarian intrusion into people’s lives is reprehensible.”
Pacific Justice Institute attorney Matthew McReynolds said he was unaware of any other state with a similar legislation in the works. But “I would be surprised if any other state has gone this far, because it’s so susceptible to constitutional challenge.”
Register correspondent Sue Ellen Browder writes from Ukiah, California.
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Progressive Democrat dogs lapping up their own vomit always hate eating alone. The Apostle Peter had these ultra liberal fascists nailed (Chapter 2)...“With their high-sounding but empty talk they tempt back people who have scarcely escaped from those who live in error, by playing on the disordered desires of their human nature and by debaucheries. With their high-sounding but empty talk they tempt back people who have scarcely escaped from those who live in error, by playing on the disordered desires of their human nature and by debaucheries. They may promise freedom but are themselves slaves to corruption; because if anyone lets himself be dominated by anything, then he is a slave to it” ... Anyone who is not outraged is not paying attention.
The California Nazi’s are alive and well. Whatever happened to “choice?”
Oh, I forgot, that only applies when you want to murder a pre-born person.
Left-wing hypocrites who do the work of the Father of Lies.
Several thoughts after reading this excellent article:
1. This development is another sign of the ‘lost and confused’ ‘state’ of California - indebted up to its eyeballs, and somehow concerned about legislating the details of psychological counseling.
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2. So it’s wrong to counsel kids who have same-sex attraction, but ok to indoctrinate the entire population of public school students with pro-gay pseudoscience and images? It’s ok to encourage adolescents with confusing, perhaps fleeting,sexual urges to ‘come out’, to leave these young kids susceptible to the harmful advances of adults? (Don’t forget that sodomy is a violent and painful physical act of aggression, often perpetrated by the larger, stronger, older man.)
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3 I am so grateful for the wisdom of the RC Church on this issue. Our teachings do not purport to understand the causes of same-sex attraction, but to affirm the dignity of ALL human persons. As any honest person can attest, engaging in homosexual acts does not promote human dignity. We must continue to tell the truth - all persons are called to chastity, gay or straight, and our gendered beings should be used to glorify God, not to use and harm others.
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4. With all due respect to my homosexual brethren, I see nothing but disease and injury and profound psychological and spiritual harm done by acting out on homosexual urges, as it was, and is, and ever more shall be. Do not blame the straight world for all the sadness and desolation that seems to follow when people act on this inclination. ‘Identify’ as a human being, not as a ‘gay’ person controlled by behavior that contradicts our very nature.
l
...long overdue. Homosexuality is not amenable to Tx for the simple reason it is not an affliction. Although it is abnormal in the statistical sense, only in that it occurs naturally in a smaller percentage of the population e.g same as higher or lower intelligence. Many years ago homosexuality was removed from the DSM (diagnostic and statistical manual) of psychiatry. Tx of homosexuality is pseudoscience. We can only hope those who support reparative therapy will change its commitment to nonsense.
Step by step…First it is proscribed, then it is denigrated, then it is tolerated, then it is defended, then it is advocated, then it is celebrated, then it is mandated.
California is almost there.
RE: Jesuitical’s mention that homosexuality was removed from the list of disorders: See NARTH.COM for resources documenting that the APA’s removal was based on political factors, not science. A past president of the APA has gone on record saying there is no hard science justifying the removal of homosexuality from the list of disorders.
Government, specifically politicians, unless they have a background in medicine need to stay out of these things…that’s what is flawed with Obamacare…Doctors and patients need to make medical decisions, not legislators or insurance companies…!!!
It is beyond the ken of an ordinary person to understand the reason why so much importance is given to this subject ” Homosexuals”. What is the agenda of these groups which are a miniscule minority? They want to spoil the whole world and ensure the death of human civilization. But how can a progressive and civilized Government think of agreeing to their foolish demand of legalization of gay marriage tec ! When will the demand for incest and animal marriage partners become strong and legalized ?
Not being an expert on these things, I would suggest they try shock treatments and lobotomies on these legislators. Did it ever occur to them that some teens might find issues greater in their lives than mere sodomistic attractions. They might might want to curb their homosexual inclinations in order to live a different life? Would any natural desires to be a pedophile be worth curbing as well? If a person has such a disposition, should they be allowed to violate what the gay/NAMBLA community insists is a normal sexual preference/ethic and change their behavior?
Deacon Dan resorts to anecdotal and hearsay for evidence. The DSM cited is fact. We all know individuals masquerading as experts can be found on any side of an issue. No where would the American Psychiatric Association be found authorizing such absurdity that its DSM is based on politics. All scientific measurements to date attest at the utter failure of reparation. The declaration that homosexuality is ‘objectively disordered’ and its practice an ‘abomination’ is a church consideration not one of science, and/or Tx.
I support the ban! Good for California! “repetitive therapy” is evil.
Assuredly other states would follow suit if it weren’t for the fact that Nicolosi and his so called therapy are a one-man show. Every article on this subject in NCR quotes him, making me think, if the therapy is so effective why is he the only practitioner?
Good riddance and good job California!
I am a retired truck driver. There is a very good reason for us calling California “The land of fruits and nuts”. This is what you get when a Politician is a professional. He or she begins to think they must do something instead of leaving well enough alone. They must continue to stir the pot so they can say, “See what I did for you.”.
Why does this once again smack of the “fall of the Roman Empire” ... there are at least some out there that want to speak truth to the madness from within the psychiatry profession… http://narth.com/2012/05/misinformation-rampant-in-the-mental-health-field/
Wow, so what will then follow is legalizing beastiality, incest, and whatever else that should please our carnal desires? What ever happened to self control whether straight or homosexual? How can a minority in this country have so much political sway? These sodomites will stop at nothing and these legislators and people in political power pander to this small minority, not to mention that a lot of these people in our government are practicing sodomites themselves so I guess it’s easier for them to change laws to suit their “lifestyle.” Also, has anyone touched on the “multi-billion dollar “Porn” industry in this country?
Sodomy is no friend of God and history will repeat itself like, Sodom & Gomorrah, Rome, Noah & the great flood, and others that took place. It began with legalizing abortion, then contraception, then you can add on the rest…
APA’s removal of homosexuality from its list of disorders (DSM) was a purely political move, made by vote, and without any scientific reason whatsoever. Don’t believe it? Look it up online. It’s the classic case of pressure group action and, as many psychiatrists pointed out at the time, it marked the crucial first step out on the slippery slope that led to California.
Jesuitical, your comments are erroneous and absurd. You may or may not be a Catholic but I will say with absolute confidence that you must be a Democrat.
...and here come the trolls.
Women carry two X chromosomes. Most men carry both X & Y chromosomes. Some men carry an additional Y chromosome making them XYY. There are even some people born with a vestigial tail. That is the truth. Shame on those who would persecute someone for being born different. Idiots believe everything they are told without examination.
Jesuitical, it is interesting you refer to a past president of the APA as one who “masquerades” as an expert. I encourage folks to research what led up to the APA removing homosexuality from the list of disorders. Fortunately, more and more hard science is finally being brought to light as organizations like NARTH have formed to protect those in the social sciences who would rather follow established scientific protocols than the politically-correct agenda of the militant homosexual movement. Jesuitical’s assertion that “all scientific measurements to date attest at the utter failure of reparation” is simply false. Fortunately, folks don’t have to take my word on this or Jesuitical’s word on this, the research and evidence is out there for all to see. And even more fortunatly, the momentum of the “hard science” crowd is gaining - the next decade will be a most interesting decade as more and more of this solid research comes to fruition.
Veritas and Deacon Ed, well said. Just my opinion but I bet a lot of these homosexual men and women would not be one if they had found a girlfriend or boyfriend. I know one that has a young teenager he liked girls. He was rather awkward and not very good looking so he never had a girlfriend in high school. As soon as he went to the UT Austin, all of sudden, I hear that he’s gay. I also think the really good looking gay men and women are narcissistic and just want another version of themselves. It’s all sick. Like I said, just my opinion. Probably will not get published. As far as for the comment about only Nicolosi using this therapy, he’s probably the only one that has the guts to do. Other psychologists are probably afraid for their lives considering how ugly and threatening the radical homosexual groups can be.
Phil, in no manner of speaking would I suggest that all republicans are racists and bigots; but if I met a bigot you can be assured that bigot votes republican. My opinions are erroneous and absurd only to low information people, who have drank the kool-aid. Finally, in 1986 the APA dropped completely from its manual all Tx directed to homosexuality. However, that does not remove all needs for Tx. In cases inwhich a patient has ‘persistent and marked distress’ that individual would be eligible for Tx for anxiety/depression regarding the sexual orientation…not for raparative therapy of homosexuality. Further, of course, a vote was taken…how would you think a committee conducts its business. The issue is never a ‘numbers game’ as Phil would like us to believe, but a formal consensus of psychiatric body of thought…to state that there were psychiatrists objecting is the ‘folly of the unlearned’.
Phil is using religion as a negative force in society warping facts of science and medicine.
Gay advocates do people with same sex attraction an extreme disservice by making “sexual identity”—whatever that means—more important than sexual behavior. Does a 16 year old virgin really NEED a sexual identity? Leave him alone. He has done nothing, why must he sexually self-identify? If he has SSA and is uncomfortable with that, why should psychologists NOT help him with the SSA?
A witch ran a website where her thoughts were just as intolerant as some presented here. She thought me a troll also. Just wanted to let you know she is in agreement with some of you.
Read and reread the above post by Jesuitical (irony, anyone?). It gives you a good glimpse into the thought process of the Pelosi Wing of the Catholic Church.
And if you knuckle-dragging racist sexist homophobic simpletons don’t get with the program—well, you will. By hook or by crook you will. Obama/Biden 2012. Forward!
A good psychotherapist does not take an ambiguous stance with clients who are considering doing harmful things (e.g., killing themselves, killing others, having an abortion, wanting to pursue a homosexual lifestyle).
A Catholic psychologist, guided by common sense and natural law, cannot support homosexuality. Thus, if a client of mine wants to pursue homosexuality, I have a moral obligation to advise him I have every reason to believe he is making a mistake, and that if he wants to continue in that direction, then he needs to find another therapist.
God bless Dr. Joe Nicolosi, and may he continue doing the work of the Lord.
I am a Republican and practicing TLM Catholic, since some (Phil) it’s necessary to proove ourselves here. Saying that the APA buckled under political pressure is such an ignorant comment. First off, all activities of the public square are fundamentally political. Second, what kind of political power did GLBT Americans wield in the 1960s - 80s?? Our community was being ravaged by AIDS, people were afraid of the situation, and you think it was a political calculation that same sex attraction was removed from the DRM? What a rediculous assertion.
Jesuitical,
You have a rather interesting moniker –
Please explain why you characterized Deacon Dan’s posting as “anecdotal and hearsay”. The fact of the matter is, Deacon Dan is absolutely correct! The past president of the APA did, indeed, go on record with the statement that “there is no hard science justifying the removal of homosexuality from the list of disorders”. Furthermore, there is a body of evidence to support Deacon Dan’s statement that the “…APA’s removal was based on political factors..”
The following is a great example. Dr. Ronald Bayer, a pro-homosexual psychiatrist has described what actually occurred in his book, Homosexuality and American Psychiatry: The Politics of Diagnosis. (1981)
In Chapter 4, “Diagnostic Politics: Homosexuality and the American Psychiatric Association,” Dr. Bayer says that the first attack by homosexual activists against the APA began in 1970 when this organization held its convention in San Francisco. Homosexual activists decided to disrupt the conference by interrupting speakers and shouting down and ridiculing psychiatrists who viewed homosexuality as a mental disorder. In 1971, homosexual activist Frank Kameny worked with the Gay Liberation Front collective to demonstrate against the APA’s convention. At the 1971 conference, Kameny grabbed the microphone and yelled, “Psychiatry is the enemy incarnate. Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us. You may take this as a declaration of war against you.”
Homosexuals forged APA credentials and gained access to exhibit areas in the conference. They threatened anyone who claimed that homosexuals needed to be cured.
Here are several interesting facts about the APA:
1) The American Psychological Association is the only scientific/professional society ever censured, unanimously so, by the United States House of Representatives.
2) Hundreds if not thousands of psychologists have chosen not to belong to the APA, have recently dropped out, or have defected to the APS and perhaps to the newer NAPPP, while others feel their needs are not being met but hang in there to maintain their malpractice insurance and other benefits offered only to its members.
3) In 2008, the APA admitted that researchers have not found a biological basis for homosexuality.
I don’t think that you will find much support for your assertion that that this legislation is long overdue. The L.A. Times has come out against this legislation, saying it constitutes unnecessary government intrusion into what should be mental-health-association policy matters.
Julie Hamilton (Ph.D) wrote a great article _ Misinformation Rampant in the Mental Health Field- “Born Gay, No Change Possible” Myths Never Substantiated by Researchers, Yet Professionals Seem Unaware. Along with many mental health care professions, she finds the “incredible misinformation that abounds among professionals in our field” very worrisome.
“It is wonderful that fellow-professionals care about clients and want to be sure that clients are not harmed by their therapists, and even commendable that fellow-professionals are willing to confront others who they fear could potentially harm clients. Unfortunately, however, when the concerns and compassion are rooted in misinformation, greater harm is sometimes the result. Even more concerning are instances where misinformation leads to confrontation, or even, in some cases, harassment of fellow-professionals. The problem here is the misinformation. Another example would be the outrageous legislation being proposed in the state of California, again, possibly well-meaning, but based in outlandish claims, NOT rooted in scientific research. In fact, some of the claims made by the sponsors of this bill are not even based in reality – such as the ridiculous notion that shock therapy is used for treating this issue. I am reminded of the ancient proverb that addresses ‘zeal without knowledge’.
She further states:
“…the myth that people cannot change is a myth for the following reasons:
1. It only takes one person having changed to nullify the myth that change is not possible.
2. There are thousands of people who claim various degrees of change in behavior, lifestyle, attractions, or all of the above.
3. Change is documented in the professional literature spanning at least the past one hundred years. A review of the
literature demonstrating that change is possible is published in a peer-reviewed journal, Journal of Human Sexuality.”
Jesuitical, I welcome your rejoinder, but please keep your argumentation cordial and factual.
***“Don’t confuse me with the facts. I’ve got a closed mind.”~ Earl Landgrebe (from the Watergate hearings)***
Jesuitcal -
1) READ THIS.
Bigotry is the state of mind of a “bigot”, a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group. Bigotry may be based on real or perceived characteristics, including sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, race, ethnicity, nationality, region, language, religious or spiritual belief, personal habits, political alignment, age, economic status or disability. Bigotry is sometimes developed into an ideology or world view.
2) TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT YOURSELF IN THE MIRROR!
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. described bigots with the following quote: “The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.”
It’s interesting that if a person “comes out” as gay after living a heterosexual life for, sometimes, decades, they are celebrated for their courage in getting in touch with their authentic Self.
Yet a person who has lived a gay lifestyle for years and then opts to identify as a heterosexual is considered victimized by a homophobic relgious/therapeutic community.
If you can go from straight to gay, why not from gay to straight?
Homosexuality is a psychological disorder when it presents itself because someone has been molested and believes they must be gay; because a lack of love from a parent or extreme harshness has pushed one to seeking love in the wrong places; because someone has been groomed out of their normal inclination of attraction to the opposite sex etc. I don’t know if any psychologist is the answer, but I know that God’s grace can heal any brokeness. I pray to God this is defeated.
“Shame on those who would persecute someone for being born different.”
We are all born different. They aren’t saying it is wrong to be born different. They are saying that certains actions are wrong. If a person has a temptation to do something wrong, then we wish to help them make the choice not to commit that wrong action.
Some people wish to molest kids. They are “born with the desire.” Should we not try to help them?
Reparitivee therapy, inner healing and deliverance of evil spirits have helped many souls return to the straight life.
Growing up in California, all the bigots I ever met were Democrats.
Reparative therapy, normal Vs. abnormal. The homosexual lobby wants to focus on relationships but a restrained discussion of this topic leads to the reality of various sexual behaviors involved in the homosexual lifestyle. And are these behaviors normal or healthy? And while people can advocate for the normality of same sex behaviors it is clear that the biology is not right. Yes we can use our will to force a square peg into a round hole, but we cannot do it without harming both the peg and the hole involved.
Thank God they are banning this modern day witchcraft.
Someone in California is waking up to REALITY! Gay people are BORN GAY!
icefalcon58, the issue discussed is not ‘bisexuality’.
Ann Marie, people can obviously change their ‘choice’. Homosexuality is not a ‘choice’, but an orientation. I think the fallacy of your lengthy prose is citing a litany of professionals who affirm an opinion already held by you. The proponderance of psychiatric Tx, writings, and present posture of the annuals supports what I said. Those who persist in attempts to change homosexual orientation are considered ‘quacks’ in the medical field.
Jesuitical, I’m in the medical field, and I don’t consider people like Dr. Joe Nicolosi to be quacks; in fact, I consider Dr. Nicolosi and others who practice in a similar fashion to be true healers, and courageous enough to speak the truth in this very hostile climate. The APA, of which I used to be a member, is totally disingenuous—they assert that every other behavior is changeable: depression, schizophrenia, cocaine addiction. Strangely, only one behavior is considered unchangeable: same-sex attractions. It almost seems as if the APA’s position is politically based!! Nah, that couldn’t be, could it? And the fact that the APA appointed only people who already opposed the idea of reparative therapy to the committee to study the issue is a complete joke! The real irony is that these people have Ph.D.s—yet, even a second-grader can see through their bias and unscientific approach.
“Gay people are BORN GAY!”
Proof? All the studies I have seen show no evidence of such a claim.
Acting upon one’s temptations is always a choice. Most people desire to have sex, but they all have the choice to have sex or not. Humans have a wonderful thing called Free Will. It is the one thing that makes us different than your average animal. If you wish to deny Free Will, then I sure hope you ban all prisons because they are attempts to change a behavior resulting from a choice.
I wasn’t referring to bisexuality, but rather to individuals who believe they have either a homosexual or heterosexual orientation and, at some point, awaken to the fact that they have the opposite orientation. They do not have an interest in “swinging both ways;” the attraction to same vs. opposite gendered people is successive, not simultaneous. I know several gay people who are not at all straight but who, prior to coming out, raised families and lived in heterosexual relationships. They say they were always gay but lived an inauthentic life as straight because of societal pressure. I also know people who had gay lovers and believed themselves to be gay, because of one solid relationship, and then later said that they were always straight but did not know how to go from the gay to the straight life once they embraced the culture. There is NO support for them. There is only “You must have been brainwashed by crazy evangelicals.” Why the double standard, do you think? Why such intolerance from people who advocate tolerance? Hmm.
icefalcon58, you have affirmed ‘orientation’, not that a gay has not fostered children, but that the ‘orientation’ persists.
Pam; you hit upon an important point that there are ‘ancillary’ concerns regarding homosexuals. True, there are those who have been abused, and become abusers themselves. In many of such cases we are addressing molestation, which may or may not be homosexuality. Many molesters are heterosexuals.
Dr.Flannick once again, the issue is the orientation of homosexuality. To cross compare is NOT scientific, but only confuses and mingles not alikes. I do not question your religious convictions, only the mingling of religion with science of medicine. “Religious faith would not be such a negative force in society if it were just about religion. However, the magical thinking becomes deeply ingrained whenever faith rules over medical/scientific facts and warps all areas of life.”
All my colleagues in medical and psychiatric fields…none of whom expouse your view, but uphold that homosexual orientation is NOT reparative…that is my ‘anecdotal’ addition to the others.
The hysterical reaction against any form of therapy for homosexuals is easily explained. This is the point of maximum vulnerability for the Gay Agenda. Their whole house of cards is built upon the false foundation that homosexuality is normal and immutable: this is literally an article of faith for them. Contrary evidence (there’s plenty) that homosexuals can indeed change and live normal heterosexual lives must be suppressed at any cost—hence the arrogant yet desperate defensiveness in the California legislation and in some of the comments here.
Yes, icefalcon, it is most unfortunate. The Party of Tolerance is composed of the most intolerant people you are likely to ever meet.
God my Lord has created me in His image and likeness and has given me an immortal soul. This God, who created me has the greatest knowledge of who He created me to be and how I am to live. I would be wise to follow the teachigs of the Scriptures and of His church in knowing how I am to live and in choosing to live that way. All of us have tendencies to sin and distortions in our personalities which make certain sins easier for us. I should avoid sin when I can with the help of His grace and confess when I fail or choose to sin. If I arrogate to myself the right to decide what is right and wrong, and what is good and evil as in saying I can engage in certain sexual sins, even though God has said they are wrong, I will surely face a stricter judgement. And as a counselor, I should help people, who want to be free frim sin, which, ultimately will make us unhappy sooner or later to do so. But I must respect people’s right to decide what they are ready for. And how many of our sufferings are caused by those sins we commit which we believe will make us happy but, in the end, especially with sexual sins, only leave a sad emptiness inside?
icefalcon58, the issue discussed is not ‘bisexuality’.
Ann Marie, people can obviously change their ‘choice’. Homosexuality is not a ‘choice’, but an orientation. I think the fallacy of your lengthy prose is citing a litany of professionals who affirm an opinion already held by you. The proponderance of psychiatric Tx, writings, and present posture of the annuals supports what I said. Those who persist in attempts to change homosexual orientation are considered ‘quacks’ in the medical field.
Jesuitical,
I can’t help wondering if you actually took the time to read through my counterargument of your sophomoric argumentation on this forum. You either misunderstood or misconstrued a number of the issues I addressed: a) your unwarranted attack on Deacon Dan’s comments; b) the unfortunate erosion of the APA’s credibility; c) the potential harm of the plethora of myth & misinformation rampant in the mental health care profession today; d) the growing opposition to & lack of support for this ill-conceived legislation that would constitute “ unnecessary government intrusion into what should be mental-health-association policy matters”—based on outlandish claims that are not rooted in scientific research.
You did not respond to any of the issues I raised, but throw out a red herring (homosexuality is not a ‘choice’) as a diversion. Tell me something, what brings you to the NCR website? Why use the word Jesuit as part of your screen-name? Be honest now…
My take is that you are not here for the purpose of edification/spiritual growth, but that your real reason for being here is to sow discord on a website that is designed to provide the faithful with a perspective on the news of the day as seen through the eyes of the Magisterium. The majority of the Catholics and other Christians are here WITHOUT a selfish axe to grind. We come here for the purpose of engaging the culture in the saving and sanctifying Gospel of Jesus Christ.
J- I take issue with your statement that homosexuality is not a ‘choice’. There is no gay gene. Even the APA has admitted that researchers have not found a biological basis for homosexuality. A person may have same-sex attractions for any number of reasons, but they most certainly do have a choice on how they behave and not give into the temptation to engage in sexual relations outside of the sanctity of marriage. It takes a great deal of fortitude to remain chaste, but it is very much “do-able” with the help of a good Christian therapist.
I have a sib, cousins, and friends with same-sex attractions. Three of them sought reparative therapy help—of their own volition and without the influence of family or friends: two of them are now happily married and have wonderful children, the third has decided to take the high road of chastity and is one of the saintliest persons around. One is dying of AIDS and has attempted suicide several times; he wishes that he had understood that he did have choices!
Since my early teens, I have championed equality for my brethren with SSAs. I have been frequently cursed, threatened, spat on, kicked, pummeled, and spent a night or two in jail while fighting for their civil rights. I join the group of “gay rights” supporters who feel betrayed by the increasing reverse bigotry by the LGBTW’s ever-growing militant faction. Boots to the ground, their blinkered intransigence makes a mockery of our much vaunted virtue of tolerance.
The slur ‘homophobic’ is designed, like ‘racist’ to shut down any argument—in other words, to censor debate. The truth is these militants have launched an all-out assault on their opponents.
Sadly, they now use the weapons of abuse, vilification, unreason, and moral blackmail as they attempt to silence, or at least cow, the opposition. This is a shocking attack on the freedom of speech!
I am so saddened by the irony of it all—that the militant faction would stoop so low to use the same tactics as the bigots who attack them.
Jesuitical, I will pray daily for your conversion. I can only hope that one day you will see the light. God bless your soul and may you have peace in your heart!
Well said, Phil. Bravo!
Jesuitical—we should define terms. I am trying to discern your distinction between orientation and behavior, and I’m guessing you would define orientation as attraction (with or without accompanying overt behavior). I have no problem with that definition. If that is indeed your definition, then apparently what you are asserting is that behavioral change—which you apparently are conceding can occur with homosexuals—does not influence orientation or attraction. For that to be true, you’d have to assert that classical conditioning is not a robust phenomenon. And, of course, no psychologist could agree with that position. To illustrate what I am saying: when one has a delightful experience (sexual or otherwise), that will (via classical conditioning) increase the attraction to all those stimuli associated with that experience—including the gender of the person. Thus, the more a person has sex with a member of the same (or opposite) sex, the more they will come to have an attraction to / a liking for / an orientation to members of the same (or opposite) sex.
Jesuitical—Here’s what Thomas ‘A Kempis, in his Imitation of Christ classic, has to say about mingling religion and science: God walketh with the simple, and revealeth Himself to the humble. He giveth understanding to the little ones, openeth the gate of knowledge to pure minds, and hideth His grace from the curious and proud (Psalm 119:130; Mt 11:25). Human reason is weak, and may be deceived, but true faith cannot be deceived. All reason and natural search ought to follow faith, and not to go before it, nor oppose it. … God, who is eternal and incomprehensible, and of infinite power, doth great and inscrutable things in heaven and earth, and there is no searching out His wonderful works. If the works of God were such as might be easily comprehended by human reason, they could not be called wonderful or unspeakable.
Fr. John Harvey, who founded “Courage” as an outreach to Catholic homosexuals who wanted to remain faithful to church teaching, was a guest with Mother Angelica on an EWTN rerun the other day. He said that the goal of “Courage” was to help homosexuals live a chaste life via the sacraments and platonic friendships in a support setting. He originally believed that the homosexual was, indeed, set in his attraction—only to find that many did, in fact, change to heterosexual lifestyles without that even being the goal. His book, “The Homosexual Person,” did find common environmental reasons people often became SSA: critical or absent fathers of gay sons, e.g. The grace of God plays a factor in changing this disorder.Although Father Harvey has passed away, his work lives on in Courage. May Father Harvey rest in peace.
I am absolutely impressed that the California Psychological Association is against this law.
The psychology and psychiatry professional bodies are usually extremely politically correct.
That the CPA decided to take a stance for freedom is almost miraculous.
Thank God!
Sick California under a single party rule is determined to push homosexual filth down the people’s throat.
I know a woman whose brother-in-law became a woman. Now he is sorry, and wants to go back, but cannot. Most studies prove it’s family environment that causes confusion regarding sexuality, with men thinking they’re homosexual, because they had distant fathers or were otherwise not close to their fathers, or never affirmed by them, as men. The old saying applies: “You’re a man when your father tells you you’re a man.” Thus, the importance of a male and a female, (a father and a mother) and traditional marriage to rear children. That’s the ideal. Society must always promote the ideal. Short of that, we need help such as the counseling these people offer, and most especially for those under age 18, that are easily swayed, easily confused (or manipulated).
This video shows the TRUTH about being Gay.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfBOGXFkC8c&feature=related
Gay is a political term, not a scientific term. APA and other political groups are not strictly scienfitic organizations. They hold extreme political beliefs. They cannot always accurately define health and disease. The world is full of credentialed misfits foisting their nonsense on everyone else. The only witchcraft here is practiced by the para experts that have turned a homosexual acts into a political cause.
Interesting when we always fall into the arguement of “choice or not choice,” we find ourselves argueing only on one side of the issue… well, we do that all the way around the board on this issue anyway.
I don’t think we can say that orientation is a choice, any more than blood type is a choice. (and as has been pointed out, its really the choice of ACTING on such impulses that crosses the line of morality.)
But, let us not forget, that heterosexuality is also NOT A CHOICE. And here’s my anger at those pushing the gay agenda. To be a functioning heterosexual, one must go through stages of development. Anything going awry at any stage can branch a person off into pornography, sexual addiction, sexual revulsion, pedophilia, etc etc. (Won’t necessarily but can, and that’s where they are grounded in a person’s ‘orientation.’)
Why is it, then, that a homosexual is BORN THAT WAY, and they get so mad, angry and hostile when one suggests that there was some trauma in their past which pushed pushed them off the heterosexual developmental path?
Few, if any, are BORN that way. Most end up there and don’t want to do the real, healhty work of resovling that past issue. Refusing to allow someone to address this issue is the most undignified and inhuman act I have ever heard of.
Thank God the Roman Catholic faith’s teaching still stands for the real dignity of each and every person.
I’d like to try to cut through the mud-slinging here a bit. First of all please, please, please, Catholic folks, don’t use the words “sodomy” and “sodomite” <wince>. It is literally scandalous, in the sense that it places a serious stumbling block in the way of homosexual people who are thinking of approaching the Church—and it makes those of us who have fully embraced the Church’s teachings feel unwelcome. These are very nasty words, and they are totally ineffectual in calling the human heart to chastity or sanctity.
w/r/t orientation change, I think it might be helpful for more people here to understand that those of us who are in successful heterosexual marriages aren’t necessarily “changed” in the way that the political cant tends to suggest. I realize that Nicolosi himself has a more nuanced position, but a lot of people commenting here seem to think that successfully finding an opposite sex spouse to love is equivalent to a complete reformation of the personality. To be honest, I don’t think I have a mother wound, or a father wound, or a lipstick wound, or whatever—I think that my SSA is largely based on congenital and tempermental factors, and I don’t think it’s likely that it will ever go away. I’ve been faithfully married for over 11 years now, and irregardless of any “behavioural conditioning” or habit, the truth is that SSA continues to be a feature of my interior landscape. Also, I think it needs to be acknowledged that some so-called “orientation change” therapies—particularly in the Protestant world—really and truly are scary: particularly the ones for teens where the “treatments” are promoted to frightened Christian parents rather than to people who want help dealing with unwanted SSA.
Melinda, (1) To say that you still have a residual of SSA is not the same as saying that your choice to marry a man has not impacted your SSA. In fact, it is almost certainly the case that your intimate times with your husband have reduced your SSA, even if they have not completely eliminated them. (2) With regard to calling it sodomy—well, it is what it is. The truth can sometimes be ugly—all the more reason to embrace the truth. I don’t know why that would make you feel unwelcome in the Church. (3) With regard to your take that you think your SSA is mostly constitutional: I think the evidence is clear that there are genetic and prenatal predispositions, but predispositions do not determine anything—they just make it easier to go in one direction and harder in the other. The ultimate outcome depends on many things, including the person’s choices.
The best explanation/apologetics I’ve ever read about sexuality and Christianity was the chapter on our ‘sexted’ - separated - human nature in the book, ‘The Holy Longing’, written by Oblate Ronald Rohlheiser. We are ALL called to chastity, regardless of orientation or inclination, and, sorry to say, we ALL suffer unrealized longings due to our nature in this life, and it is what we do with this sexual energy, sublimating it, if you will, that makes our lives/spirits complete and happy. ‘Being a self for others’ is The Way.
You are what you read, so please seek out Fr. Rohlheiser’s book.
Melinda, I will go along with the idea that The word “sodomy” is not a good way to approach a person at the point of their process of conversion, and yet, I believe, there is a time and a place to discuss the very real dangers of some of the sexual behaviors which SSA persons do engage in. I once had a professional association with a proctologist, a physician who specializes in diseases of the large intestine and the !@#$%, and he would discuss the dangers of “gay bowel syndrome” which, of course is mainly dealing with male homosexuals.
As for overcoming SSA, let’s remember that most of us have some distortions in our sexuality at some point for some obvious reasons, the first being that as Dr. James Dobson used to teach in dealing with pornography, early sexual experiences have a disproportionate effect on one’s sexual attractions and fantasies. That is, those experiences associated with our first sexual arousal and orgasm, tend to be more strongly implanted in our sexual arousal process and while, with God’s grace and with our obedience to living a faithful chaste life or of being faithful to a spouse, our part, God can transform our sexual desires and attractions, this is a process and for a Christian even some healing prayer and possibly deliverance may be needed. Many of us have experienced that prayer for psychological healing and deliverance from the influence of evil spirits can be a part of the process. I know in our rationally based society the idea of deliverance and evil spirits, is not “Politically correct” and yet as both s Christian, a social worker and a member of a deliverance and healing ministry, under good pastoral authority, I Know these things are true.
The second reason for common distortions in our sexuality is, that with such a sexualized society, how many of us have had truly healthy early sexual experiences. And with many of us having had sexual experiences apart from God’s design of us having our first sexual experiences with our one spouse or by being chaste, the possibilities for sexual distortions are many.
More for later but I mention the issues of distortions in our sexuality as I believe it is good to understand something of our own common weaknesses first,and how these things can happen, so we can more easily understand and have compassion for those involved in more severe distortions in sexuality. And as my confessor once reminded me “but for the grace of God would I be”.
Rereading my last post I see where I took some leaps of thought which are obvious to me but maybe not to others.
Regarding early sexual distortions, the distortions are shown by fantasies, images, ideas and attractions to what is other than the ideal that God has for us, which is to be attracted to our spouse if married or of chaste love for others, except for our spouse, if we are married, or to all others if we are not. Although we all have temptations, sexual and otherwise, the early sexual experiences can block or can distort our ability to have the healthy sexual life which God desires and the distortions of fantasies, images, desires, etc can prevent or can limit our ability to exercise our sexuality in a healthy direction, with the joy and the contentment which God desires. These distortions can also make it much more difficult to avoid the sexual temptations which our wills know, that God wishes us to avoid.
Healing can involve some combination of corrective healthy sexual experiences over time or living in Chastity to avoid feeding the distorted images fantasies, etc. Prayer, regular confession, and psychological counseling can help us to retrain our sexual desire, images, etc. as well as to help us to avoid giving into sins in this area.
The talk of deliverance may be a leap but here it is. Just as Satan tempted Jesus by placing ideas and images in His mind, and God allowed this for our instruction, God can allow demons to place, bring sexual images, memories, etc. of distorted sexual images to our minds which can make the process of letting go of the distortions so we can move to more healthy sexual attractions more difficult. And as our mental, emotional lives and spiritual lives are complex good counseling and a good confessor or healing minister can help us to discern the spiritual bondages from which we may need deliverance prayer from the psychological factors from which we may need ongoing counseling and healing prayer to help us to recreate new and healthier sexual images.
My reading of Joe Nicolosi’s work, although not in depth, leads me to understand that a common factor especially in male homosexuality is that the father wound, or the lack of a father’s affirmation and care for the young man leads him to desire intimacy with other men and at the time of puberty this desire can become sexualized and once early sexual experiences occur with the young man, this implanting of the early sexual experience along with the psuedo affirmation of the same sex community can lead a man to believe his orientation is Same sex. I have not worked much in this area as my area of practice is substance abuse, but I have known cases where I believe that early sexual abuse of the man has contributed in the sexual confusion also. Of course the human personality is complex and not all persons with SSA have the same causes.
And once a person begins to act out their sexual distortions their sexuality can become increasingly distorted both in terms of the degree of sexual distortion and also the compulsiveness of the sexual behaviors.
As for therapy, attempts at “reparative therapy” should be allowed but the struggles involved should not be minimized. That some may not be willing or able to change their orientations should be acknowledged. I do believe that a Christian Therapist should, at the least encourage, as in the approach the group Courage takes, persons of SSA to live a life of sexual chastity , as much as they are able, so as the avoid the very real dangers of many of the same sex behaviors.
As there has been no traffic here for several days, I am wondering if others have lost interest or if more likely the moderator has fallen asleep. (No need to post)
thanks bob.
Bob—I just checked, and I found the moderator asleep. BTW, I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I am a therapist myself (in private practice), and have addressed the issue of SSA on multiple occasions in my office. I agree that we must guide the person onto the right path (presuming they are amenable to that). I am black-and-white in doing so: there never can be peace in one’s soul when one lives outside the Will of God, especially in an area as important as sexuality.
Bob, I’m reading, and your posts are thoughtful and truthful, IMO. Melinda warns us against using the loaded and pejorative word sodomite, and I see her point, but those of us who stick to a traditional view of sexuality, (and have lived a long life), can’t help but try to ‘warn the sinner’... Isn’t that one of the spiritual works of mercy???
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This post about reparative psychological treatment has been scorned by many, but why, may I ask, is it ok in our society to elevate homosexuality - in the media, and most particularly in public high schools - as something brave and valiant???? The way that the anti ‘bullying’ trend has focused on homosexuality has been blown way out of scope, and, although tragic, the suicides of young gays cannot be blamed on straight culture. The very prevalence of mental illness and psychological turmoil in homosexual youth tells me that there is a maladjustment or neurosis or other cognitive dissonance attached to the ‘gay’ identity.
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I would counsel a young person with same-sex attraction to ‘be a self for others’, (as we all should be), and leave the ‘gay’ out of his/her identity. Life is so much more than what your mind may tell your genitals to do. Our God-given free will allows us to transcend any compulsions we may experience, and we should act like the dignified human persons He made us.
“Our God-given free will allows us to transcend any compulsions we may experience, and we should act like the dignified human persons He made us.” Quo Vadis says,
For many, only with the help of God’s grace. For strong temptations and as a counselor of substance abusing persons, I know this, only by relying on God’s help can we succeed, but this involves facing the truth first and admitting our need for help from God and often from others. And sexual addiction is common in our society and among SSA persons.
Bob—I agree that those with SSA are often addcited to sex (at least males)—all the more reason to warn them. When they decide to go down that road, they have no idea what kind of beast with which they will be entangled; so, we are negligent if we do not warn them.
Ezekiel 33: 7-9 – You, son of man, I have appointed watchman for the house of Israel; when you hear me say anything, you shall warn them for me. If I tell the wicked man that he shall surely die, and you do not speak out to dissuade the wicked man from his way, he (the wicked man) shall die for his guilt, but I will hold you responsible for his death. But if you warn the wicked man, trying to turn him from his way, and he refuses to turn from his way, he shall die for his guilt, but you shall save yourself.
This Scripture passage, of course, supports the first spiritual work of mercy referred to by Quo Vadis: to admonish the sinner.
Reparative therapists
claim to be trying to help people who are strugling with the same sex attractions.
But instead it hurts because it promotes the view that people with same-sex attractions can really be “cured” or transformed into heterosexuals. The problem with this is that this is really just an illusion and not true.
http://bit.ly/Jck4ZV
All research is suggesting that people change their behavior and their values. There is no indication that the very basic desires to change as the result of the therapy.
There are studies that show that most people who undergo this therapy have a loss in their mental health.
The same people who would be willing to waive the prohibited behavior, often also would love to believe that they can actually “convert” not only the lifestyle, but the real attractions completely. They end up discovering years later that this approach is not the case and are devastated. This results in some cases of suicide and leaving the faith.
Besides all the mainstream psychiatric, psychological work, social, the World Health Organization advisory groups and even many experts among people who have been involved in “reparative therapy” mostly agree with that. Does not work in shifting the focus.
According to those who believe such conversions, the success rate is about 0.4%
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod1.htm
Warren Throckmorton, a psychologist and professor at the evangelical Grove City College recently surveyed 239 men in the “mixed orientation marriages” in which her husband is attracted to other men and women is heterosexual. About half of the males had been through a conversion therapy.
Throughout their marriage, men, “same sex attractions increased ...” and “attractions for your spouse declined,” according to Throckmorton.
Another study by Mark Yarhouse, a researcher at Regent University - which was founded by Pat Robertson - reached the same conclusion.
The leader of the Exodus, the largest audience of people (thousands) that changed from a gay to the heterosexual lifestyle admits that this does not include the end of same-sex attraction for 99.9% of the group.
“There was a change in our beliefs about therapy focused change orientation and do not believe that it is effective.”
For a person giving up their sexuality to be celibate because they believe
it is sinful is a very difficult but possible road.
Fundamenntalist Heterosexual church members must ask themselves whether they really support such people.
The Catholic church does not advocate for conversion therapy.
It does not believe that same sex attractions per se are sinful.
The final holdouts are often some Evangelical Christians dealing with their sons and daughters who insist that homosexual orientation per se is a great sin.
By rejecting both the “sin and the sinner” they invite no possible positive outcome.
But the light of reason is starting a dialogue there. Many articles in evangelical journals are now questioning reparative therapy.
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President Al Mohler
“We understand that sexual attraction and a profile of someone’s sexuality is a complex of factors, some of which are certainly not chosen,” he continued. “It’s not just a matter of choice. It’s not something that’s turned on or turned off.”
The Bible should be a vehicle for love not a weapon. religious texts have been used in the past to justify attitudes and laws that are recognized today as morally wrong and unjust – such as discrimination against women, people of color and religious minorities.
Dr. Spitzer
“If people can recognize that being gay is something that can not be changed and that efforts to change will be disappointing and may be harmful if it can be more widely known it would be great.”
Those who want to change their sexual behavior especially because they believe it is a sin can find help with a priest or councellor who can help them to succeed with, modesty, chastity, and patience, without charlatans who can not work to change its basic attractions.
Without clear evidence that a treatment is effective it can not in good conscience, recommend an unproven treatment that can cause undo pain, suffering and death
@Jean-Pierre
Get better sources. religioustolerance.org is made by a relativist teen who likes to pretend he is a witch (seriously). It has no credibility at all.
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