Thank you Bishop Paprocki!

I commend the Bishop for having the courage to advise Catholics about intrinsic evil which can not ever be supported. I hope other Bishops follow his example and do the same. In my parish here is never any talk about Catholic voting obligations. I believe that all Bishops have an obligation to guide Catholics on faith and morals. As the Bishop says the Republican platform does not conflict with Catholic teaching, but the other party does. Catholic action should follow from this analysis. No Bishop or any one else can use prudential expertise to justify supporting intrinsic evil in civil elections.

The Republican Party is a minority party. It needs to increase its base as widely as possible.  As such it pays lip service to the issue of abortion, gay unions, stem cell research, contraception etc. However, its only concern is Wall Street holdings, laizzes faire economics,and a military to protect its financial interest. NB:  that party has no concern to ‘promote the general welfare’, it does not recognize the gospel of Matthew or any of the issues which affect the working class or lower middle class. Alas, the bishop falls prey to the foibles of the predators from the ultra right who feast upon naivete…such shame.

Thank God for Bishops like Bishop Paprocki who has the courage to say what is right and what is wrong.  We need more of our Clerics to openly guide us to the right path.

Thank you, Bishop Paprocki for speaking out on the coming election.  Too bad that some of the “Catholic” members of Congress don’t realize the dangerous position they are placing their souls. This is such an important election.  I hope Catholics who are die-hard Democrats will search their souls before they vote.  There is no bigger issues than abortion and same-sex marriage.

Good article.  It’s crystal clear.  Still, there will be many Catholics with deep seated beliefs that the Democrats are for “the little guy”.  But, they’re certainly not for the little guy in the womb.  These Catholics will mindlessly vote for the same party that has given us 54 million abortions since 1973 and now wants to destroy marriage.  With a misplaced sense of compassion, this group will vote with their hearts.  The sad thing is that even when you explain the big picture to them, they dismis it and go right ahead and vote for the most pro-abortion, anti-family president we have ever had.  There’s virtually nothing you can say to change their minds.  You can tell them about Obama’s opposition to the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, which equates to him supporting infanticide.  You can tell him about him refusing to enforce the Defense of Marriage Act.  It won’t register.  I tend to believe these people are truly lost, caught up in some sort of confused heretical thought process.  God help this country.

All of the Catholic parishes need to print this out, mention it at all weekend Masses, and hand out to everyone as they leave Mass.  Thank you!!!

Continue to Pray for Pope Benedict, Bishop Paprocki and all our Faithful Clergy.
We must stand with them not only in the VOTING booth, but in the public square as well.

These Faithful Church leaders have the full support of Faithful Catholics.  No doubt they will be attacked by Catholic heretics and Catholic schismatics.

For more info on heresy and schism, on internet search: ” What Catholics REALLY Believe Source “.

God bless Bishop Paprocki!  And lets pray that more Bishops have the courage to speak as openly as he has.

Let’s hear it for the Good Bishop! Everyone of his fellow Bishop’s should take the headline of this article, put it in a letter to the faithful, read it at all the Masses, then mail/email/push it to everyone in the diocese. All the Bishops have blogs and Diocesean websites, facebook, smartphones etc. This simple declarative sentence is invaluable. Saves a lot of time, confusion and contradictions by USCCB statements. This could go viral in very short order if everyone started using the social media. 
This is all anyone needs to know. It is short, succinct, clear and in English. There is no excuse not to do it. To do otherwise is moral negligence on the part of the Bishops. I have copied and bookmarked this page. It will be going out to everyone I know regardless of faith. May I suggest everyone who reads this article do likewise. Easy to copy the Headline of the article and quote, put it in an email and then attach the link to the full article in the email. In the Subject of the email I am going to use MUST READ! “VERY, VERY IMPORTANT! THIS SAYS IT ALL! Send it to everyone you know and request everyone forward it to their contacts.  When Bishops stand up we, the faithful laity, MUST cover their back and spread the word.

On the death penalty, I understand it can be deemed the “only way to protect human life” only if there is no other way to protect society.  That might be true in a primitive society with no prisons.  In the US, we have have the most prisons per capita of any country, life without parole, and no issue of prison escapes.  Under those conditions how is death penalty permissible?

On helping the poor vs. abortion, we have a majority of justices appointed by conservative presidents and under George W. Bush the GOP controlled both houses of Congress and the White House.  Roe was not overturned, and abortion was largely unchanged.  It seems much likely that if Romney becomes president and the Republicans win control of both houses that massive budget cuts will take place in programs affecting the poor.

I would suggest the following link as well: http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/107826/why-paul-ryan-and-his-bishop-defenders-are-wrong

Thank you Bishop for your courage, nowadays many,“even so called catholics” want to make every issue a political issue.If we don’t stand up for this evils now, we won’t be able to go back and undo the errors that will greatly impact our country and our society for years to come.
We will find ourselves fighting against God. I for one,don’t want for my children and grandchildren to grow up in an environment that tells you everything go’s, no morals,everybody has their own morals, no abolute truth.

PeteM, so what do you suggest?  We throw our hands up in the air and support a fellow who is doing everything possible to expand abortion and legalize same sex marriage across the USA?  Sadly, you’re right.  We’re not likely to see Roe vs. Wade overturned.  And, yes, I’m not particulary thrilled with Romney’s record on social issues.  But re-electing Obama and people like him will make matters even worse.

PeteM, stop supporting Obama on this site.  Everyone should just ignore you.  Your intent is obvious and an attempt to take away the message of Bishop Paprocki - so I will repeat the above -

QUOTE:  ” Bishop Paprocki Warns of ‘Intrinsic Evils’ in Democratic Platform
He said that VOTING for a candidate who promotes actions or behaviors that are ‘INTRINSICALLY EVIL and GRAVELY SINFUL’ makes a voter ‘MORALLY COMPLICIT’ and places the eternal salvation of his or her soul in ‘serious jeopardy.’ ”  UNQUOTE.

Cardinal Razinger (Pope Benedict) called it “REMOTE MATERIAL COOPERATION”.

Send a link to this article to EVERY CATHOLIC you know.  The Bishop is in full conformance with the “CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, Second Edition”.
Don’t let Catholic HERETICS and Catholic SCHISMATICS change the subject.

Abortion, Euthanasia, Homosexual Marriage are all INTRINSICALLY EVIL.
These are not prudential judgements.

I am a pro life Democrat,  I am against abortion and do not advocate it… but I believe in being pro life from birth to natural death.. I cannot believe that this bishop does not consider starving children by cutting food stamps, not helping to educate students, and most especially letting people die because they have no health care not intrisically evil. Unbelievable…this Bishop needs to get out in the real world, and see how people really have to live.. Of course his housing, health insurance, etc. is probably paid by his diocese,

PeteM: wouldn’t giving a JOB to the able-bodied “poor” solve the poverty issue for them at least? Define “poor in America” because that seems to be a red-herring issue. There are far too many able-bodied individuals living off the public dole and stealing the benefits from the truly deserving- elderly and disabled. Poverty has INCREASED under Obama and jobs have decreased- the poor have been greatly affected by Obama’s reckless spending and the middle class is suffering.Housing prices have plummeted under Obama- this affects the middle class the most. The high gas prices and high food costs directly impact the poor. Obama vetoed the Keystone Pipeline- shovel ready jobs for Americans and cheap oil for all of us, now that oil goes to China. Obama indebts us to China by increased government spending driving up the deficit to 16 trillion dollars- a burden our children will have to pay and immoral for us to burden the future generations with. Obama is shutting down American coal mines- great paying jobs for many Americans and a cheap fuel source to power our electrical plants. Voting for Romney is moral on more than a few counts. Thank GOD for Bishop Paprocki. Listen to him, your soul is in jeopardy if you fail to see the moral truth to his words.

PeteM: do you not care about the death penalty the INNOCENT unborn suffer? Especially the ones born alive after an abortion- Obama supports the murder of these innocents. Can you say that a person who willingly kills another (there was a case of a murderer who raped, sodomized, cut body parts off the victim, strangled her in front of her husband) now, he choose his fate, didn’t he? He sits in jail, gets to have repeal after repeal, has a gym, TV, food, medical care, etc.. and may never get executed. Yet, an unborn child is forced to die slowly, shivering and gasping for air in a laundry room of an abortion clinic because he didn’t die from the saline or procedure. Can you NOT see the difference? Can you not see why you should vote for Romney over Obama? Open your eyes and your heart. It is a FALLACY that the poor will suffer under a Republican administration. If that is what you worry about- what do YOU do to help the poor? Are you doing your fair share to help the poor? Can you do more to help the poor? Perhaps you need to step up your contributions and volunteerism. Maybe that’s what we all need to do and get government out of the “forced charity” business.

Dear PeteM..The link at the bottom of your post is to that bastion of objective reasoning and thoughtful positions… “The New Republic”. Surely,you are making a “funny”? Gave away yourself immediately. Spoken like a true “In the Spirit of Vatican II” “social justice” modernist liberal within the Church. Won’t take the time to go over your numerous illogical discombobulations. Instead we refer you to the CCC and section on subsidiarity….as if it matters.
PS: BTW..“In the Spirit of Vatican II” does not exist anywhere in the V2 docs nor is it a defined term anywhere in the Church. However it is “common code” for “Social Justice” whose meaning has been hijacked by the progressive left. That’s the problem. It sounds great and gives one a “warm feeling”. Thus it is used to justify   “anything goes” by liberals in the Church over the last 40+ years. How’s that all worked out? Not real good if “Catholics” can now, with a straight face and utter sincerity, equate willfully killing the unborn with feeding the poor. Even Christ said the poor will be with us always. We are obligated to assist the poor. However, it does include mothers killing their unborn. How do you say…“Intrinsically Evil?” Latest stat is 12% of the population (African Americans)is responsible for 42% of abortions in the country. So much for feeding the poor and “social justice” as practiced by the liberals. Read the Good Bishops statement again and prayerfully contemplate it’s meaning.

Right and wrong DO exist.  Thank you Bishop Paprocki, and all the other courageous Bishops who vocally agree with him.

Candidates from both parties give lip service to their platforms while running for office. But actions speak louder than words. I don’t see either party consistently promoting their “platforms” once an election is over. In fact, platforms are pretty much ignored once the Legislature is in session. Republicans haven’t fought against abortion, or for the poor. I haven’t seen Democrats fight as a party for affordable health care (i.e. abortion) either.  The “people” elect representatives. Our attention should be on the individual running for office - any office - all offices! Do they listen to their constituents, or to big money? As for you and me, WE MUST MAKE OUR VOICES HEARD WHILE SOMEONE IS IN OFFICE, NOT JUST DURING THE ELECTION!  Please stay involved in our Democracy, or it will disappear.

“There are “many positive and beneficial planks” in the Democratic Party platform, the bishop said, but some promote “serious sins.”—-*No* bishop, there are zero planks, and it’s not just some. The Democrat party is communist, and that is 100% evil. It’s so-called concern for the poor is a sham, a ponzi scheme to raid the wallets of taxpayers to pay for benefits for unions and special interest groups. Tax money is used to buy votes so they can have permanent power. The poor get nothing unless they want contraception.

It’s deeply disturbing that a polytheistic heretic who profited from abortion through Stericycle is being championed by any true Christian. Democrats are at least providing the space to allow troubled women to make the right choice by providing support services for mother and child who find themselves financially in dire straights, while Republicans create an environment of desperation by cutting off essentials like food and shelter, creating the perfect storm for back alley tragedies.

Profiting millions of dollars from the agony and desperation and tragedy of abortion is unconscionable.

I’m still a practicing Catholic and pro-life, regardless of what many folks on these blogs think of me. However, poverty, war hunger, the homeless are also “intrinsic evils.” When the USCCB cleans up their child sex abuse scandal and bring the guilty to justice, sacrifice their extremely lavish and comfortable lifestyle, give all their wealth to the poor and follow the true teachings of Christ then I will listen to them but until then I’m voting for President Obama. Who knows in the end. Maybe President Obama will enter heaven before Bishop Paprocki or any of us do.

Catholics, who joined the DemocraticParty, for whatever reason are in a vantage point to help the Catholic Church in her drive to stop abortion and same-sex marriage. Their knowledge of Catholicism can enable them to convince their partymates that abortion is intrinsically evil and that same-sex is against natural law. They can fearlessly stand up to their religious beliefs and become saints. What else is there?

This is the kind of mindless nonsense that makes me embarassed to be a practicing Catholic! What ever happened to Rerum Novarum? For concern for the working poor? For concern for the the poor at all? What about helping all those who were abused as children by priests whi remained protected by church leaders? Practice what you preach, for God’s sake! And if you call yourself “pro-life”, then mean it! Help those who are dying in poverty! Stand against capital punishment! Fetal life is not the only form of life that needs ro be protected! Get your heads out of your asses! He may not use my language, but I would bet Christ would demand the same from those who preach his message!

“Massive cuts..affecting the poor”!? You mean if the evil man who supports infanticide wins, we will have millions more poor and hungry people-see Greece, Spain, etc.. Coveting and stealing from the wealthy (after demonizing them) not only breaks 2 of the Commandments, it hurts the people in the middle and lower classes by ruining the economy for all. I have never made above $30,000 per year and I need for the wealthy and businesses to do better, not worse. If they do better, I will have a wide choice of jobs available. That will help poor people around the world who receive my tithe. Paying people to have kids out of wedlock and to stay at home watching TV helps no one.

When will the other Bishops join in?

It is past time to end taxpayer subsidies to all churches. Preaching about whom to vote for violates the IRS rules. Preaching about morality and sins is hypocritical given the church’s history of protecting child raping Priests.

Apart from the Democrats’ total devotion to abortion, contraception, same sex “marriage”, and other like issues, the overriding issue of the day is the fact that early this year Mr Obama met with a group of feminists.  He was asked “you’re really going after the Catholics, aren’t you?”. His answer was “You bet I am!”.  His first volley in this attack is the so-called Health Care Act mandate to force all Catholics, not just Church organizations, to pay for contraception, abortion, and sterlizations in their health care plans.  The Bishops’ focus on just Church organizations fell far short of where it should have been:  several Popes have noted that the Bishops should stand up for all of society against Evil, not just ask for an exemption for themselves.  Their approach just isolates us from the rest of society.  A fifty year year old business in Denver, owned by a devout Catholic family, and employing over sixty employees, asked the Administration for an exemption from the mandate.  The Administration’s response was: “Tough.  No exemption.  If you don’t like it, close your doors”. 
If you folks don’t see threat in this, you are missing the point. 
A Catholic vote for Mr Obama in 2012 is like a Jewish vote for Hitler in the 1930s, and for the same reasons.

Peter M, it sounds that you are trying to say the Republicans did not overturn Roe. This may be true, but at least we did not have public funding of abortion. You might consider that under Democratic presidents with both houses of Congress, poverty has not been eliminated. I guess the Democrats really don’t want to eliminate poverty because they would have nothing to argue and could not possibly throw circuses for votes. Food for thought!!

Dear Bishop,

I am not a Catholic, but being fond of my Irish heritage I am somewhat fond of the Church. Unfortunately you have chosen to stick your nose into politics, a thing Jesus refused to do, or so I would argue. As a result I find it increasingly difficult to consider the Catholic Church any better than the nasty Evangelical Churches with whom I grew up, and who’s denunciation of the Catholic Church I endured hearing. Your warning of damnation for voting Democratic crosses the line in my opinion. If you cannot see anything Evil with Republican policies and behaviors, then I suggest you simply open your eyes. You are an educated and intelligent man, fully capable of seeing the serious flaws of the Republicans, yet you allow outdated dogma surrounding abortion, birth control, and homosexuality to trump all other considerations. In over emphasizing these you overlook many equally fatal sins.

For your consideration.
Q: What do you get when you add a teaspoon of wine to a barrel of sewage?
A: A barrel of Sewage.

Q: What do you get when you add a teaspoon of sewage to a barrel of wine?
A: A barrel of Sewage.

Wow, the only evil I see is a manipulative priest telling us Jesus votes Republican.

Churches lose their tax exempt status when they start telling people how to vote. What he’s doing is illegal and its our moral duty as Catholics to report Paprocki’s illegal activity to the IRS.

@ Ceci Casillo - you claim to be pro-life, as well as a practicing Catholic… how do you justify voting for Obama - the most radically pro-abortion president ever!?  Don’t take peoples word for it here - look up the way he has voted for yourself.  He is NOT anywhere near pro-life and stands as far to the other side as one can get…  So, if you believe you are pro-life - why would you give your support, your vote to someone like Obama???

Ceci, glad to see your concerned about poverty, war, etc.  But with 54 million dead unborn children since 1973, those important issues take a back burner.  A society that is OK with killing 54 million future citizens is not long for this world.  We are undergoing a demogrphic implosion due to artificial contraception and abortion.  If we don’t get these things right, nothing else will matter.  Also, the accusation of “extremely lavish” lifestyles is neither fair nor accurate.  The RC Church is the largest provider of aid outside the US government.  You call yourself a practicing Catholic yet you seem to have little idea of what the Church does on a global basis.  I’d encourage you to do some research before simply repeating common attacks found in atheist and some Protestant circles.  It is the least you could do as a practicing Catholic.  I always wonder about those who claim to be practicing Catholics and then recite every contrite attack that’s ever been made against the RC Church.  If it’s so bad, why are YOU part of it?

@ Reynaldo, if Catholic Democrats were so effective in there party - how is it that Democratic Platform came out the way it did?  Promoting Abortion / Gay Marriage… while the Convention was going on the “Catholic pro-lifers” in the Democratic party held there own “mini-convention” at a nearby hotel!?!?  Not even part of the main Convention!  How is that having a vantage point to stopping abortion or same-sex marriage - this years Democratic platform was the most radically promoting of abortion and gay marriage of any they have ever had.  And Bishop Paprocki is 100% right - God bless him and I pray more Bishops will speak out as clearly as he has done.

Bishop Paprocki, your Excellency, it is your duty, your work, your moral obligation, to join the Bishop of Rome in collegial consecration of Russia to Mary’s Immaculate Heart, participate in Her triumph, and in Christ’s promise to His people. You only betray administrative constraint by equivocating the political conundrum. Your call, as persona Christi, is to speak “with authority”, not to sound an “un-certain trumpet,” Please shepherd your people aright; your own soul is in serious jeopardy. We continue to pray courage for you, the courage to surrender to Christ’s triumph, to lead His children to springs of life-giving water. Amen

Mark Hinds, help me out here.  Which party has promulgated policies that promoted 54 million deaths since 1973 and seems to be doing everything possible to increase this?  Which party, increasingly, is giving us same sex marriage?  54 million deaths mean nothing to you, but cutting raises from 3% to 2% in a union contract, well, that just downright evil!!  And, a bishop should not say anything about it because some priests are egregious sinners.  So, we should just all shut up while millions more die.

For those of you that disagree with the Bishop, up until lately, I would fully agreed with you. But after my wife worked in a school kitchen and living in a ‘poor’ area of town, we both came to realize that rarely are the ‘poor’ really poor in the US. She was feeding kids breakfast for free, only to see them throw it all away because they didn’t like what they were serving. That doesn’t sound like a starving child to me. Usually when a ‘child’ is starving, it isn’t because of the ‘working’ poor, it is because of a very selfish and poor parent who wants a new tattoo (or worse drugs), more than care for her child. I have known numerous children who after growing up and finding their birth parents, ended up very glad they were adopted out.

My wife and I both grew up extremely poor, but both of us came to realize the fallicy of ‘helping’ the poor in the US. The safety net in the US is so extensive, the only reason anyone could starve is due to parental neglect. In that case, the children should be adopted out.

My daughter, who would be considered a model to follow of the poor single Mom, still had money to waste while on the public dole. Yes, she worked hard to finish college but there was still enough help from the government for here to waste thousands of dollars every year. 

I asked her if I could help her out and she said there was no reason to because the government took care of her. Not even the father of her child had to help her out. What a silly system.

Nora Reinecker PROVE IT that children STARVED under any Republican President- PROVE IT because you CAN"T!!  PROVE IT that Republicans do not want to EDUCATE children! You can’t PROVE IT because YOU LIE. YOU are a LIAR! PROVE IT that Americans were DYING from lack of healthcare under any President especially a Republican President- you CAN’T prove it because you LIE! Poor people received FREE healthcare in ER rooms and in the many free clinics sotting our country- even POOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! PROVE IT that Romney wants to have people DIE or be denied an education or STARVE!

Sharon Lank said “Profiting millions of dollars from the agony and desperation and tragedy of abortion is unconscionable.” So, Sharon, how do you feel about PLANNED PARENTHOOD- one of the DNC’s biggest financial supporter? Planned Parenthood which profits millions of dollars from the agony and desperation of abortion. Remember, Sharon, IF you vote for Obama, the blood of the innocents is on your hands as if you performed the abortion yourself. You will be guilty of the sin of Omission. If you vote for Obama, you will be judged by God as if you were an abortionist because you supported abortion by your vote. Feigning ignorance will not help you when you appear before God.

Ceci Castillo, you care so much for “poverty, war, hunger, the homeless” and yet, under Obama- POVERTY HAS INCREASED, HOMELESSNESS HAS INCREASED, HOUSE FORECLOSURES HAVE INCREASED, WE WENT FROM A WAR IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN TO WAR WITH LIBYA, SYRIA, EGYPT- OBAMA USED DRONES TO KILL HUNDREDS- under Obama HUNGER HAS INCREASED- the use of Food Stamps has risen drastically. Obama has ransacked the future of our children by increasing the DEBT- money we owe to CHINA- by TRILLIONS. And you seriously think of voting him in for another 4 years? If you do, then you DON’T care about “poverty, war, hunger, and the homeless”.

Bridget said “It is past time to end taxpayer subsidies to all churches. Preaching about whom to vote for violates the IRS rules.” So, you OK with the Democrats campaigning INSIDE the BLACK CHURCHES? They have been doing so for YEARS! Or are you just a Catholic BIGOT?  And then you said, “Preaching about morality and sins is hypocritical given the church’s history of protecting child raping Priests.” I guess you are a gay-hating homophobe because those “child raping Priests” were GAY! They were HOMOSEXUALS!

JANE- did you report all those black churches to the IRS when the Democrats- for years and years- would be campaigning inside them?

The comments from our fellow “Catholics” criticizing the good Bishop speak volumes of their ignorance of the faith. And whose fault is that? It’s the Bishops in general. They are selected, ordained and responsible for teaching the Truth to the faithful. However, since Vatican II & Humanae Vitae in 1968 they have been muted at best and complicit at worse. Words have meaning and actions have consequences. Fifty years of irresponsible sexual behavior at the altar of intrinsic evil has just about overwhelmed the country. On Nov 6 we will either officially complete the transformation to Amerika or keep the door cracked open to restore America. Make no mistake. The Purolator Man’s…“Pay Me Now or Pay Me Later” tag line is here.  “Later Is Now”  The question is how to handle “Now”? Darkness? or Light? Yea, the Bishop is right. You don’t have to be a Bishop to know it either. Any informed God fearing adult with a modicum of common sense and enough basic math to shop at a grocery knows it. We are in deep caca. It’s just a matter of the degree of pain “Now” will extract as payment.

Robert McVeigh, how are you helping those who are “dying in poverty”? What are you doing to alleviate their suffering? Jesus wanted all of us to act charitable on our own accord and not through forced charity (i.e., government handouts). And please define poor in America for us. Under Obama, poverty has increased!!!

Joe Vandenberg, where did you get that load of nonsense from?  Clergy has every right to tell us where candidates stand on issues and what the Catholic teachings are regarding those issues.  You don’t like it because it calls a spade a spade.  The Democratic Party is reposnsible for promulgating abortion “rights”.  Their ideas have given us 54 million abortions since 1973.  While Republicans are no walk in the park either, they at least have not tried to expand the availability of abortion and have not spent money on International Planned Parenthood.  When good people say nothing, you end up with atrocities like Nazi Germany.

KT, the “Catholics” who do nothing but mock the Church and its clergy generally don’t lift a finger to help anyone.  When it comes time to volunteer for the food pantry or kids clothes closet, they are no where to be found.  They just complain, but will never get off their duffs to start a ministry or be involved.  It’s always someone else’s job.

The following are from the “CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH”.

QUOTE - - - CCC: ” 2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes. ” - - - UNQUOTE

QUOTE - - - CCC: ” 2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.
“A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.
The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society. ” - - - UNQUOTE

QUOTE - - - CCC: ” 2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.”  UNQUOTE

BISHOP PAPROCKI is simply doing his REQUIRED teaching job for his flock.
ABORTION is INTRINSICALLY EVIL.

ABORTION / EUTHANASIA, HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE, and FREEDOM of RELIGION are not negotiable.
End of Subject.

I support neither Romney nor Obama, but perhaps somebody here can shed some light as to why Church leaders are giving Romney a pass on his support for the death penalty, his apparent willingness to go to war with Iran, Romneycare’s funding of abortion in Massachusetts and the order he issued as governor to require Catholic hospitals to provide emergency contraception to rape victims. It seems to me that if Catholics are to avoid voting for candidates who support anything “intrinsically evil,” we can’t support either of the two major-party candidates. The lesser of two evils is just that—evil.

I should have emphasized my barrels analogy more. You still get a barrel sewage when adding a teaspoon of sewage to a barrel of wine. The Church is the wine (or should be),
the sewage is politics. The contents illustrates that quite clearly and is a direct result of the Bishop’s choice to stick his nose into politics.

I do not agree that abortion is killing a person. Human does not begin with fertilization of the egg. If it then you may raise your number of 54 million to perhaps more than a billion deaths.

I have no problem with someone believing otherwise and living by it, but do have problem with people who impose their beliefs on others, especially via government.

It is a woman’s (and her partner’s I hope) choice, AND it isn’t anyone else’s business.

BTW, Job 3:3, 10-11, 16
“Or as an untimely birth I had NOT been; as infants which never saw light.”

You may also wish to check out Exodus 21:22-25
The punishment for man causing a miscarriage is a fine,
and was only application if the man was not the woman’s husband. Doesn’t quite sound like they thought it was murder.

You folks need to find a better hobby in my opinion.

I don’t think Romney is getting a pass at all. His iew on the death pealty is consistent with the Catechism—- its a case by case basis not a unilateral assessment——this election its actually very clear—one party platform (Democrat) officially is pro-abortion, pro-gay rights, subordinating religious freedom, repealing the Defense Of Marriage whereas the other part platform (Republican) is clearly not.  It is a pro-life, pro religious freedom, pro-marriage platform. I am independent, suprisingly there could not be a more clear contrast between the two parties—one is clearly anti-Catholic , and one is not.

Pretty ridiculous point of view Mark—- do you then determine which red lights you stop at? Or what speed limit you decide to drive at? Do you feel “imposed upon” when a golf course asks you to use golf clubs on their course and not a baseball bat? Or do you feel you have the right to decide whenever you want? Or do you resent people’s “beliefs” that golf is game that should be played with clubs not baseball bats and guns?

Catholic beliefs are defined to razor sharp edges—we don’t lack for clarity although I know you and the World would love to come in and “re-engineer” the Catholic faith - I know that this must be very frustrating for the world design you imagine in your mind. “You’re ok, he’s ok, you do what you want, I’ll do what I want.” That’s not the Catholic thing ok? We always seek and embrace truth. Bishop Paprocki courageously and precisely defined for everyone Catholic or non-Catholic what Jesus Christ and our 2000 year old deposit of faith teaches us as it relates to the public positions taken by both parties.

We don’t believe your non-specific claim that “human doesn’t start with a fertilized egg”. We believe a fertilized egg has the same rights that you presently enjoy. Powerless to speak, unable to defend itself, but life nonetheless, and entitled to every right that you enjoy. This is no imposition on you—this is our belief—- that every “fertilized egg” has a dignity and human rights—this is for every single “human” on the planet.

Cherry picking random biblical quotes that appear to state something else than what they really do is a ridiculous perversion of the Bible and also suggestive of the way you read it. May I suggest as a better hobby for you a real and thorough reading of Scripture and some contemplation on the person and teaching of Jesus Christ?

Mark Hinds, I hate to spoil things for you, but every law we have is the result of some people imposing their beliefs on other people through the government.  It’s called a legislative body. And, as far as your belief that 54 million people do not deserve to live, that’s frighteningly similar to the beliefs held in Nazi Germany.  I know this might seem like a novel concept to you, but women AND men are both responsible for the children conceived from their relations.  All the things promulgated by the RC Church: respect for life, sanctity of marriage are important because without them, things do not go well.  Lastly, just curious, why do YOU bother to visit web sites that espouse ideas you are so opposed to?  Maybe YOU need to find another hobby?

New Yorker: where did you get a name like “New Yorker”? Is that from your birth certificate, or baptism? Since the Miracle of Fatima, in 1917,the faithful have awaited a proper response from the magesterium, our Holy Father and the college of Bishops,to her imperative, consecration of Russia to her Immaculate heart, lest “Russia spread it’s errors throughout the world.” THAT is moral formation, THAT is shepherding aright,THIS is the obedience that permits our God to protect us from the evil one. Yes, New Yorker, it’s a load, all right—secreted for too long, bringing us to the present diminishment—entrusting our spiritual government to the state. Christ’s mercy…

To Mark Hinds: You consider a barrel of sewage to politics, or to be precise , dirty politics, because politics can be good. And you compare the Catholic Church to wine. And you concluded that the addition of a teaspoon of wine to a barrel of sewage, the resulting mixture is still a barrel of sewage. This is true because the wine has no power to get rid of the pollutants. But the age-old teachings of the Catholic Church has the grace of God Almighty to cleanse the ugliness of present-day politics. You claim further that when a teaspoon of sewage is mixed with a barrel of wine the result is a barrel of sewage. This is not true with the Catholic Church. She was and is threatened by renegade priests, immoral clergy, left-leaning politicians, outspoken protesters, etc. But the Catholic Church remain strong and mighty, like a rock, and has the ability to ward-off evils surrounding her.

I’m seem to have stirred this pot somewhat. There’s alot there. Yes I suppose my biblical quote somewhat cherry picked, but they remain relevant. Tell me what in the Bible should lead me believe that abortion is murder.

And no, sorry fertilized eggs don’t have any rights under current law, nor I hope will they ever. That is silly extrapolation at best.

As to legislative process being imposition of beliefs by some over others, well yes of course to a degree. The difference being that laws (the fruit of the legislative process) should be, and hopefully are based on practical real world facts - as apposed to purely matters of opinion.

Give an example of a law which is not based on something of practical importance - ie, speed limits are a necessary regulation to allow for ordered and safe flow automobile traffic. It hardly a matter opinion (or faith) the allowing people drive any speed would result in more frequent accidents and thereby impede the flow of traffic AND produce more injuries and property damage. Traffic laws are fairly set practical rules and of course are should be regulated. The vast majority of laws are of this sort.

The wine./sewage analogy is only that, and such imperfect. I defy anyone here to knowingly drink from the wine barrel with the teaspoon of sewage.

The explanation the analogy is highly flawed. The Church symbolized by the wine in that it meant be uncorrupted by the world - it is only symbol.

Politics, whether “clean” or “dirty” is worldly thing of man’s creation, therefore corrupt by nature. Perhaps sewage is an overstatement, but it is effective to illustrate that even a small amount of a corrupt agent will pollute a pure one.

The Grace of God has the power to cleanse the sole, but to heal the world requires its destruction and rebirth. Until then we must make do with the world we have.

We each do as best we can in broken world. In matters who practical implications are so subjective as one’s understanding Faith it would be far better to seek to understanding and tolerate differences, yet lead by example than to simply spout your understanding as if it were true and perfect - No one has a true and perfect understanding of God’s will and plan - No, not even you folks :-)

Mark,

“No one has a true and perfect understanding of God’s will and plan - No, not even you folks”

If you’re Catholic, the Holy Roman Catholic Church speaks in Truth; but,  I can’t tell from your remarks if you are Catholic since a fetus is human life according to the Church.  Other than this, I can only pray for you.  God Bless.

As a social worker for 31 years and having worked in all the social programs I can tell you that finding people work was the most rewarding for the poor. It is false to assert that Republicans don’t care about the poor.  What planet are these writers living on?  Continuing to spend more than you take in as our government is doing and trying to control spending has nothing to do with lacking compassion or not helping the poor. 
As we see cities going bankrupt because of overspending who suffers?  Everyone. If you take down everyone then no one can benefit from the generousity and tax money from others.  Since the War of 1812 through the Vietnam war 2,759,357 Ameicans have been killed .  Over 54,000,000 million Americans have been killed since 1973 in their mother’s womb. Don’t you think God is upset with us as a Nation?  I think that those who disregard this intrinsic evil of abortion or who put social justice issues over abortion will bring down on all of us a self imposed chastisment that will bring us down on knees asking for mercy from our God. Your God should not be a politican who supports, funds, and condones the killing of the most innocent. I pray that those who call themselves Catholic or Christian see the error of their ways, repent and stop the culture of death that is destroying our Nation.

Mark Hinds——

Like I said, you need to spend more time with your Bible. Let’s keep it real simple:

Exodus 20:13   Thou shalt not kill.

Also how can you possibly imagine that the destruction of 54 million human lives doesn’t have ‘practical importance’. Human life is what propels all of us forward.

How many artists, authors, inventors, nurses, doctors, physicists, teachers, caretakers, caregivers, policemen, firemen, brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers, geniuses etc. etc have been destroyed—- how much potential has been cast away——and you don’t see the ‘practical importance’ ? We didn’t create life nor do we own it. It must be valued, protected, and elevated and honored. No matter how you try to relativize it—Life is life—a fertilized egg is a human life with all the rights and potentials that it brings.

For the good of your soul, don’t be a fool. Thou shalt not kill is all the “law” we need to stop this insanity in its track. Read your Bible—- pray for an open heart and open mind. I’ll pray for you as well.  God bless you.

Mark Hinds, we Catholics do not just have Sacred Scripture (the Bible).  We also have Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium to interpret both.  Part of Sacred Tradition is a document known as the Didache, which is the Teachings of the Twelve Apostles.  In Chapter II, it specifically says that Christians should not be practicing abortion. Since the Apostles were Christ’s own hand picked guys that he specifically chose to continue on after he died and was resurrected, their words should carry some weight.  So, my friend, you are very far off track.  I’d encourage you to read “The Didache”:  http://thedidache.com/  (refer to Chapter II, Line 2).

Jim (McCann),

> Exodus 20:13   Thou shalt not kill.
OK, I guess that means all cells in your body are off limits? Sorry, I don’t agree. Fertilized eggs are just a collection of cells. And yes, I consider a fetus up some reasonable point, say 24 weeks is still just a collection of cells without a soul - got it? I’m hardly alone in this understanding.

I do not consider it to be the destruction 54 millions human lives, and again hardly alone in this understanding.

All of this bother is over a bunch hypothetical none sense. I think Jesus would not be in favor of abortion, but he would not place such absurd importance on it either. You understand - Sin is sin, and all have sinned. The question he would ask is why are so many getting pregnant in first place? You are focusing on the symptom, not cause.

Now of course, birth control greatly reduces unwanted pregnancy’s, but I suppose that a no no too, eh?

I have read my Bible. While I find the words of Jesus quite good, excellent in fact, I have come to the conclusion that man has created God, and not the other way around. There is simply no way that God would allow us bicker and argue over our various understandings of His will when He could simply set us straight and thereby end a great deal of trouble.

BTW, I am truly curious how any of you could possibly vote for a blaspheming sociopath such as Mitt Romney. You do of course understand that creating a false religion and false prophets is rather more seriously and directly addressed in the Bible, yes? Mr Romney is a Bishop pf the Mormon church.

Seems to me that this simply a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend, a concept which is not viewed in favorable in the Bible: 

Matthew:22, the Pharisees and the Herodians united against Jesus. Even though they hated each other, they had a common enemy.

I am not so well versed in the Bible that I could pull that one up with help from google - Having found it I do recall having read it at some point.
Here is the relevant link I found:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070924104847AATDcNf

I do not believe the Exodus reference is the same concept.

You enjoy this, you may not.
http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2011/10/blasphemous-foundations-of-mormonism.html

I’m serious in my skepticism about the purity/integrity of the absurd (IMHO) concern over abortion (and birth control) when I see members of all the major Christian religions in the US simply ignoring Mitt Romney’s fatal flaw.

Here’s more about false prophets.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/cults/exposem/xm06.cfm

Abortion is a serious sin, but a political party that includes making it illegal as part of its platform is basically either lying, being cynical or being naive depending on the individual.  The way to honor the rights of the unborn under our present circumstances in America is to help the mothers who often are also the victims.  Many pro-lifers, sincerely motivated by a love of life are not even aware of the potential harm that would be created by criminalizing women for something by which they are victimized.  Unfortunately, this issue is far too complex for the nice, neat black and white of being labeled an ‘intrinsic evil’.

>I’d encourage you to read “The Didache”:
>http://thedidache.com/ (refer to Chapter II, Line 2).

I’ve was not familiar with it, thanks - I read through it. My Evangelical background makes be think there’s stuff in there that’s does not come from the Bible - You may disagree, and you may be correct. Overall seems like pretty good stuff.

Here’s a couple of reactions:
> thou shalt not use magic
Uh, I’m computer guy, as far as I can tell, most
people think that’s what I do. Same is true for much
of our technology. Since I do not believe there is
such a thing I tend to right this one of as silly
superstition.

> thou shalt not use philtres
Uh, does include Viagra(tm)?

>thou shalt not procure abortion
Well that’s fairly clear, not really from the Bible,
and so I’d say its someone opinion.

Regarding Infanticide I stumbled onto this.
http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-abortion-on-the-grounds-of-physical-deformity-be-allowed

Oh oh! You lose - thanks for playing though! :-)
http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-third-month-of-pregnancy-a-reasonable-cutoff-for-abortion

Do understand the concept of Democracy? You majority rules? Oh yes, of course THE CONSTITUTION says blah, blah, and means whatever the devout follower of the constitution wants it to mean - Kind of like the Bible.

The US constitution would be far better viewed more as a set of guidelines - (like the Pirate Code :-) All in there is subject to change and interpretation - It really didn’t come from God - you know that right? I guess you’re not Evangelicals so probably you do - a lot them (EV’s) don’t.

Sorry to be a bit of snot, but you guys are so damn silly about this. Yes, in your opinion, but you are not the only people with opinions and beliefs, and you are by no means more correct in your opinions and beliefs than anyone else. The God game is played by many different groups, all with different variations and rules.

Who’s right? - I do not know (the words with which wisdom begins). Neither do you. I accept the notion that you believe as you do, and will respect that so long as you are reasonably self consistent, and you grant me and everyone else the same privileged.

I would say that’s fair enough, but somehow I don’t expect most here to agree.

Mark Hinds, actually a baby is completely formed and can fit in the palm of your hand at 10 weeks.  When an abortion is done they need to make sure they have all the parts (head, torso, limbs).  Your understanding is not accurate.  Also, read the Didache. 

Romney is far from perfect and a serious Catholic would not endorse Mormon theology.  However, we have two choices and Romney is the lesser of two evils.

@ Mark Hinds - you may not be alone in your “understanding” of when life begins or the mass murder of children by the abortion industry (I’m not sure why this gives you ANY comfort at all - or why more people then just yourself thinking something makes it a truth???) - but you most certainly do NOT have an understanding of Catholic teaching on abortion.

And what do you mean by “I find the words of Jesus quite good, excellent in fact, I have come to the conclusion that man has created God, and not the other way around.”  What is wrong with this world is not that God just needs to “set us straight” something God is certainly able to do - but He choose to give man free will - the ability to choose right or wrong.  If He just “set us straight” that would make us more like robots then created beings with a free will.  And God has given us the tools to find the truth. 

You also said that “sin is sin…why are so many getting pregnant in the first place?  You are focusing on the symptom, not cause”  I agree that the cause should be addressed as well as the symptom…  The cause of many unwanted pregnancy’s / abortions come from people living immoral / unchaste lives outside of marriage and becoming pregnant when they are not ready to start a family - well the real problem STARTED with them trying to “act” like they are ready - and they are not.  Who is the one most affected?  First the unborn child - who is murdered in the abortion and second the women - who will carry that gilt and loss, even if at the time she does not realize what she has done - third the man - who will certainly suffer for his part in this at some time.  Responsibility and Moral Courage are what is needed today to fix what is wrong.

@ Mark Hinds - the below link has some images of abortion, it is not easy to see - but ask yourself if you can really see this and NOT believe that this is a real person - a life - a baby.
http://www.priestsforlife.org/images/index.aspx

http://www.priestsforlife.org/images/index.aspx#galleries

God bless, Rebecca

Mark, the opinion of “someone” in The Didache would be the Apostles’ opinions.  I don’t know you Mark and I’m sure your a nice fellow, but if I have to wager my soul, I’m going to go with the Apostles’ opinions over yours.  The terms used in the Didache, like the Bible, may seem a bit strange in our modern language.  “Magic” refers to occult practices, not pulling a rabbit out of a hat.  “Potions” refer to abortifacients and crude artificial contraceptives.

How do you know who is right and who is wrong?  Look at Greece.  Decades of rampant artificial contraception and abortion have left them with a younger generation that is not large enough to pay for their generous social systems.  A nation cannot abort and contracept future generations out of existence without paying the price.  Greece is facing a demographic and economic implosion because they have ignored the natural moral law.  The rest of Europe is right behind them on the learning curve as is the USA, Japan, South Korea, and many other areas of the world.  Fertility rates have been dropping steadily to the point where many nations are simply not replacing themselves.  Google “fertility rates in Europe” and you will see what I mean.

Artificial contraception?  It’s wrong because it tends to bread promiscuity on levels never before seen in history.  It shouldn’t surprise anyone that human beings would want to pursue pleasure and avoid pain (raising children) if given the choice. If there was no such thing as artificial contraception, would you see college students living life so loosely? 

The teachings of the RC Church are very difficult to accept, but they are proving to be correct.  But no worries, no government is going to take any action.  People will not give up birth control pills and abortions any time soon.  This means that ultimately, sooner or later, we’ll all be facing a situation like Greece’s - or worse.  The trends are not good.  Keep an eye on Greece to see what will happen to us.

I agree with the stance the church MUST uphold in regards to HHS Mandate, however this politically charged video hints that all Catholics MUST therefor vote for Romney.
I believe it is ONLY FAIR, that Bishop Paprocki makes a video explaining his (and the church viewpoints) on Romney owning Stercycle, a company which is in the business of abortion.
If you will chastise a candidate for being politically expedient and not appealing to us Catholics, then you must logically expose the wrongs of his opponent as well, unless you do support Romney and his pro abortion actions.

Mark: Let’s start with the basic question of “Where did the Bible come from”? It’s a historical fact. Check it out for yourself.

What do I mean by God did not create man - man created God?
The concept of God has been created by the mind of man. His existence seems highly unlikely. Allowing humanity to come to an impasse such as the present one where people can never agree over matters a faith would be a fundamental failing of the a fathers duty to his children. God being a perfect father would not have failed in this, and therefore I conclude that He is construct which we have created.

Whether or not God exists outside of our minds does not change our obligation to understand the truth of life, or to act in a moral or ethical way. He are simply on our to figure things out.

A note on choosing one political party as morally superior to another.

First, such a choice is arrogant at best. Why, if the Republicans are so pro-life has it taken them so long to get abortion ended? Possible answer: They have been pandering to the prejudices and superstitions of a bunch of arrogant fools so as to secure their vote? Seems to work pretty well for them (the Repubs)

You are arrogant because you believe that you are morally superior to those who do not agree with your understanding of the Bible, or life in general. You believe that your faith and beliefs are more important and correct than those of your fellow citizens. Your behavior in this regard is the very definition of arrogant.

You are fools almost by definition since to be arrogant is foolish.

If that is not sufficient proof than I’ll simply reference the current Presidential election. Mr Obama is clearly the more ethical, moral, and generally decent man than Mr Romney. If nothing else, Mr Romney’s incessant use of deceit should be a clear warning. His lifelong adherence to an absurdly false church should be more than enough to dissuade anyone of reasonable wit from voting for him, yet because he and his party pander to certain hot button issues - abortion, gay marriage, SOCIALISM (oooo so scary) you’ll happily vote for the “lesser of two evils”.

You are not voting to end abortion. If such a law proposed nationally it would lose. You are voting for man to lead our nation - a nation which is very divided on the issue abortion. You are expecting him to in someway end abortion,
and thereby override the will of the majority of your fellow citizens (arrogance). You are trusting a man who has literally been on both sides of this issue, and clearly chosen the stance which suits his needs at the time, (foolishness).

Jack Martinez, where did you see that Stericycle was in the business of performing abortiona?  As far as I can see this looks like a medical waste company.

Mr. Obama is a man who thinks it is OK to take a child born accidentally from a failed late term abortion and put it in a soiled linen closet to die.  As an Illinois state senator he faught legislation designed to prevent such a thing by opposing the Born Alive Infant Protection Act (BAIPA).  This is not urban legend.  The Illinois legislature records are very clear on this.  The testimony of Jill Stanek, as maternity ward nurse, is also very clear.  Mr. Obama is a fellow who is so liberal and arrogant that he cannot see how wrong it is to put a child in a closet to die.  What is even more scary is that when you tell a someone about this, they dismiss it as insignificant.  The life of child becomes secondary to more important things like getting union memebers an extra percent raise on their contracts or giving money to international planned parenthood so they can spread our culture of death around the world under the banner of “women’s health issues”.  All of this happens while many “advanced” nations undergo a demograpahic implosion.  Yeah, Romney and the Republican are far, far from ideal.  But I doubt they would work so hard and tirelessly to spread our culture of death as our president and his cohorts in the Democratic Party have done.

Mark, I am truly amazed at your suggestion that Obama is a more ethical, moral and decent man then Romney…  What does it take to be unethical, immoral and indecent??? Obama not only supports - but pushes the gay agenda - definitely not Biblical.  He is the most radically supportive / promoter of abortion of any president - ever!  Even if you don’t see abortion as the most horrible of crimes, do you really support it to the point of giving your vote to Obama - who has and will do all in his power to promote it?? Did you view the links I posted yesterday??  How can you NOT see this as a BABY! 
I will say that I agree with your point that the Republicans are not as strongly pro-life in action as they should be or I would hope to have seen more done then we have - however it seems more then foolish to say because the Rep. are not as pro-life as I would like it’s OK to support the Dem. ??? I mean really, the Rep. may not be as solid as I would like - but the Dem. make no bones about being radically and with both feet PROMOTING and PUSHING all the wrong moral issues of the day!  How that makes them more ethical, moral or generally decent is truly something I do not understand and can’t see your point in…
God bless, Rebecca

To Our Friend Mark Hinds regarding your posts:

Mark, not to be unkind or disrespectful, and in the spirit that telling the truth is being charitable, it is very clear from your postings, that you have furnished irrefutable empirical evidence that “Dumb is forever and only God can fix stupid!”. Are you an adult with the ability to think logically at all? Your discombobulation’s are so well stated that you must almost believe them yourself. Please stop embarrassing your self before you convincingly prove the Dilbert Axiom…to wit:...“Never argue with an idiot because they will shout you down first and then beat you with experience”

Mark,

Thanks for your notes. You are quite right in that there are many, many instances today where “religion” has become nothing more than an endless set of scenarios of man creating God. That is absolutely correct. Deepak Chopra’s The Third Jesus is an excellent example where the author removes the cultural and historical context of Jesus, then he removes the theological context, and then he places Jesus into a subjective context that the author believes has the widest appeal.

If you think Jesus makes excellent sense, keep pursuing your reading of him, but stay close to the Gospels. Be very wary of how our culture and society has domesticated Jesus. Many many people would like to reduce him down to that of a teacher, guru or a wise man. But Jesus himself did not allow for that, he compelled a simple choice…in his own words “you are either for him or against him.” You either believe he was the Son Of God or you have to believe he was a fanatic.

I too agree with you on your point that the real problem behind abortion is that “so many people are getting pregnant ” and you are correct (with the exceptions of a violent crime like rape or incest)—unplanned, out of wedlock, the rate of these type of pregnancies is ridiculous and just as much outside of the Church’s teachings on the sacred value of marriage, and celibacy. But that doesn’t lessen or modify the radical evil that lies in the destruction of abortion. There really isn’t a single silver bullet in solving for this pregnancy issue. Catechesis, Education, Stronger families, Improved image/values of celibacy, Better implementations of family planning approved methods (i.e. rhythm etc) all of these constitute a way to solve for this than abortion.  Abortion as an answer is the equivalent as solving for inner city crime by bulldozing cities. That level of destruction makes no sense.

Not sure why the political turn in your comments but let me address them. Mitt Romney is a Mormon but he belongs to the Body Of Christ. As Catholics everyone has the same dignity as a human and all ultimately are members of the body of Christ. Romney in no way, shape of form can be labeled a “sociopath” and I would encourage you not to be a victim or a patsy to the ridiculous and vile rhetoric that is in our world right now. Lenin had an expression for all the people that use to cheer him on, he referred to them as “useful idiots”. As Catholics we stand for respect, civility and love for our neighbors and we refuse to engage in any of insane web of accusations, “gotchas”, lies, deceits, slander.

Please don’t confuse our Faith with arrogance. Jesus Christ had many statements in the person of God that led many to condemn him as arrogant—- “I am the Way, The Truth and The Life”—- “the only way to the Father Is through the Son”—- this wasn’t arrogance, we believe it IS THE TRUTH. We believe we are created in the image of God, loved by Him, Redeemed by Him, and Led by Him. This doesn’t mean we believe we are superior in any way…..it is however the absolute TRUTH that we believe in.

Focus on your interest and your admiration for Jesus. Know that we believe He is the Son of God who is present in the world today through action of the Holy Spirit. Think about Him and invite him into your mind and heart. Let you and him build a relationship. Stay focused on that and don’t get too tied up in all the “rules and regulations” this world tries to stuff down your throat. You have value and your soul does too. It is not too late for you to seek salvation. God Bless you and keep coming back!

JD, 

Your comments re Obama and abortion are wonderful!  You’ve put it all together from a moral point of view.  This alone should keep any Catholic, as well as and Christian, to vote for this man.  Add to this, his failed economic agenda.  I don’t want four more years of Obama!!

A few quick notes.

A simple google search on Stericycle yields a clear explanation for its relevance vis a vis abortion.
http://www.stopstericycle.com

Here’s some amusing spin on why OK to invest in a company which disposes of the dead bodies of murder victims - that’s what some of you folks keep on calling it. Seems to me it is only OK for Romney since he’s a Republican.
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/07/04/left-wing-blogs-falsely-attack-romney-on-abortion-stericycle

To the person (Rebecca) who posted the charming links containg images of the things which Romney’s company cleans up, here some additional charming photos.
God curse us both for sharing such things.
http://www.google.com/search?q=DU+Baby+Pictures
http://www.google.com/search?q=nazi+death+camp

Did I mention barrels of sewage at some point?

Is it a immoral and/or against Biblical teaching to NOT stone adulterers? Rebellious Children? Is it OK if vote for people who do support the implementation of laws supporting such punishments?

Should we go to war with Canada to stop them from allowing abortion? Shall we administer pregnancy tests to woman wish to travel to other countries - or perhaps simply cross state lines?

But Mark, you’re presenting allegations as facts.  Here’s a link which disputes/disproves the Stericycle stories: 

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/07/13/obama-11th-hour-attack-on-romney-may-involve-false-abortion-story/

Did you know the Holocaust started in the German medical community, which advocated euthanizing “useless eaters” - handicapped people who could not support themselves or materially contribute to society?  Once a nation goes down this path, it’s hard to stop.  Who gets to decide who is “useless”?  At first it’s the handicapped, but then it grows into include ethnic and religious groups.  That’s why protecting life is so important.

Since 1973 legal abortion has taken the lives of 54 million people.  Those people could not speak for or defend themselves.  Then again, neither could the useless eaters in Germany.  What good is a society that does not protect the defenseless?

Mark

You can’t justify abortion just because there is a whole industry attached to it or the fact that there are millions upon millions who support it. Wrong is wrong and evil is evil. It is an absolute—- it can’t be modified, softened, relativized, or “golly gee’d”. I think down deep you know this as well.

On your other questions—- yes it is immoral to stone adulterers. For us Catholics, Jesus acting in the full person of God, condemned such an action with the words “Let he without sin throw the first stone”. More specifically, death as a penalty is strongly discouraged in our Catechism but not ruled out entirely in situations where there is a risk the offender could harm others.

No we should NOT go to war with Canada—- Christ was very clear i his words and example on the power of non-violence and we have had a beautiful example of the effectiveness of these methods with Martin Luther King and Civil Rights, Gandhi in India, and Pope John Paul II and the Solidarity Movement overthrowing the communist regime in Poland.

We lead best through our example, and the best example we can lead with as a nation devoted and obedient to God.

Hope it helps! God bless,

Mark - the photos I shared were of children that were murdered by abortion, my point in posting them was that as horrible as these pictures are the more horrible reality is that THESE are really BABIES and this IS what abortion does - if you in fact support abortion, that is the realty of what is happening - and how anyone can see those pictures and NOT believe it to be a baby but just a blob of tissue is truly beyond me…  The pictures you posted are also horrible to see, but they are of children affected by depleted uranium, other then posting disturbing pictures - I miss your point.

To JD and Jim McCann,
Thanks for your posts - you have made some very good points and said it better then I did.
God bless, Rebecca

The Bishop speaks the truth.  Pray for our Bishops that they will all lead us in truth.

Rebecca,

The DU Baby photo’s are the real effects of the use of Depleted Uranium munitions on the children of both Iraqi and some US soldiers children. They are not nice photos either, and they are also quite real. That war was brought to us by the George W Bush and his lovely right to life party. I guess the numbers aren’t as large, but then most abortions do produce an easily visible fetus. Your photos could also well be the results of late term miscarriage - not that anyone is trying to be deceptive, simply that late term miscarriage looks they also.

I am not in favor of abortion, any more than I am in favor of adultery. I simply do not believe that it the purview of government to intervene in these private issues.

I do think it IS the responsibility of citizens to make balanced decisions as to governance and NOT to weigh any one factor above all others, but that’s just me and I suppose I’ll just have risk hell by voting for Democrats. :-)

BTW, I hope you’ve noticed how your boy Mit is now trying to dance away from his previous strong pro-life rhetoric. The guy is a total car salesman. Yes, yes, you know what really means, after all he’s a rich mormon businessman - what’s not to trust? :-)

Mark

You really need to connect the dots man…....given the pattern of your anti-Mitt threads, I am going to assume you are pro-Obama——your view “I am not in favor of abortion, any more than I am in favor of adultery. I simply do not believe that it the purview of government to intervene in these private issues.” So do you agree with the President’s mandate (not voted on) that all businesses (Catholic, Christian or not) must provide health coverage that pays for abortions, sterilization, euthanasia, contraception even though these elements violate their religious beliefs and their consciences?

Simple yes or no will do…......

Mitt Romney (whether we like the fact that we are in a two-choice system or not, represents the best opportunity for the oppression that our faith has been under these last four years to be removed). So if you believe at least in freedom and and preventing government intervention into our religious faith I would imagine that the “Mormon businessman” would be your best bet.

Mark, it’s very touching that you care so much for the DU babies, etc.  But the fact remains that you support a political party which has advocated for the death of 54 million unborn children since 1973. Not only that, your party would like to eliminate conscience clauses for health care professionals/hospitals and eliminate parental consent laws so girls under the age of 18 can have abortions and artifical contraception without their parents knowing about it.  This is in the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA), which your heroes have endorsed.  And, oh yes, if this ever got passed, it would likely bring back partial birth abortion and eliminate the Born Alive Infant Protection Act (BAIPA). 

Whatever Romney’s faults are, and they are many, I don’t think they can hold a candle to the utter horror your heroes have brought (and would like to bring more of) to humanity. You have a misplaced sense of compassion, completely missing the big picture.  Societies that do not protect the defenseless and do not respect life will ultimately fail on their own fruition.  Just look at Greece.

Mark,
One big difference I see between our two points/pictures is that in the pictures I posted of the babies killed in abortion (and if you look more on the sight that I took them from you will see it is a group that has long been fighting against abortion - and the pictures are real). Abortion is a choice - it’s intentional.  In the pictures you posted of children who were effected by depleted uranium - I do not believe that the purpose was to torture and kill those children, it was an effect and a terrible one, but in abortion the intent is to kill the baby - and the pictures I posted are the goal in the abortion.  That to me is a difference.
You make the point that you do not believe it is right for the government to intervene in regard to abortion, but they very much are intervening - the government in 73 decided to make abortion legal, and in the new HHS mandate want to force everyone - wither they agree or not - to pay for it!  The government already gives tax payer money to groups like Planned Parenthood that is the biggest abortion business out there, so we are all ready paying for it - like it or not.  And say what you like about Rep… the Dem. are unapologetically pro-abortion and are doing all they can to promote it. I’ve already said I don’t think the Rep. have done all they could - but don’t you see the difference between not strongly fighting against it and 100% fighting for it?  Please, read the Dem. and Rep. platform and ask yourself which one really represents your positions.  Here is the Dem platform http://assets.dstatic.org/dnc-platform/2012-National-Platform.pdf
and here is the Rep. http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/papers_pdf/101961.pdf

God bless, Rebecca

Rebecca, the choice to invade Iraq was completely optional, but the outcome of all war is inevitable - death and destruction. It was our choice as a nation to inflict that inevitable death and destruction - we chose it, and only ignorant or foolish could not have foreseen the harm.

Its absurd (not reasonable) to claim that a woman who chooses abortion does so to inflict harm, but just as with war harm is done. There is only reason for which I would out law abortion - so that women would not be forced to make this terrible choice. I do feel badly in that regard, but then I recover my senses and move on. I am not in charge of all the problems of all the people of this country - I barely manage to handle my own! :-)

I just Biden say - He follows the rules of his church, but will not inflict them upon people of other faiths. Sounds reasonable to me.

JD! Come on. Yeah the Dems are just there advocating for killing 54 million baby! No, they are simply saying its none of your business, and you know that perfectly well.

I suppose I don’t care anymore for the victims of our wars than you do. I do believe that people who live in glass houses should not cast stones.

> So do you agree with the President’s mandate (not voted
> on) that all businesses (Catholic, Christian or not)
> must provide health coverage that pays for abortions,
> sterilization, euthanasia, contraception even though
> these elements violate their religious beliefs and their
> consciences?
As far as I know euthanasia is not included - find me a reference that says otherwise. You want to run a business in this country? Follow the rules, so yes.

Just a quick point - this really torques me off. My personal beliefs were strongly against the war in Iraq, but we went, the harm was done, and debt incurred. Now we’ll all be paying for it, so you’ll just have to buck-up here and pay for stuff that you don’t like just as I do - fair enough?

As to my heroes, please do tell me WTF the Dubliners have ever done that is as bad Romney?

As for your inane and tiresome blather blaming Dems for for 54 million murders. Clue-in dude, if anyone is to be blamed it the women who had the abortions first and foremost, followed by the doctors nurses who performed them. If failed to make it illegal to commit murder I may be foolish, I may be weak, but I am not a murderer. Your reasoning completely false - as is the Bishop’s.

You made the lame point point about Greece earlier and I simply ignored it. It remains lame, so I’ll continue to ignore it.

Doh! looks like I mixed JD and Jim’s messages up. Sorry about that. OK, you guys win. I’ll vote for Satan-lite to stop the Dems from letting woman commit murder - You ladies are just so bad - Just like Eve!!! :-)

The above is all total BS - in case you weren’t sure.
I think we’ve beat this dead horse pretty thoroughly by now. Thanks for trying - you’re completely misguided and your position is doomed to fail, but I appreciate that you are sincere and decent folks.

Maybe we can agree on Irish Music?

You folks would greatly benefit from a good pint
and song or two! If you’re ever in Seattle I’ll tell you where to go… No, no! Not bad kind of tell you where to go! :-)

Can I please not go to hell for liking the Dubliners? If I must go there perhaps they’ll be there too, so how could that be? :-)

Mark, Mark, Mark…..good luck to you and agree this horse is flogged. We are hardly misguided and hate to break it you but our Church has been around for over 2000 years, making it the longest unbroken institution in the history of the world. So we don’t really worry about failing or falling apart. Christ said his Church will last forever and we believe him.

Irish music is my favorite and Place Pigalle in Pike’s Marketplace is one of my favorite places to have a Black and Tan. Good luck to you and stay close to Jesus. He worked many miracles and converting you to His great wisdom and love would be a very great thing. God bless and safe travels!

Onward!

@Mark Hines
“As for your inane and tiresome blather blaming Dems for for 54 million murders. Clue-in dude, if anyone is to be blamed it the women who had the abortions first and foremost, followed by the doctors nurses who performed them. If failed to make it illegal to commit murder I may be foolish, I may be weak, but I am not a murderer. Your reasoning completely false - as is the Bishop’s.”
.
If it were true that laws did not matter and that legalizing abortion did not change the number of abortions I might agree with part of your statement, but…
Abortions increased from 200,000 a year to over 1,400,000 babies killed a year - after it was legalized.  The pope speaks of a culture of life vs. a culture of death.  This is a culture of death, brought to us by the democratic party.
.
Obama focused his convention this year on expanding Planned Parenthood and greater access to abortion, as well as targeting the freedom of the Catholic church by headlining Sandra Fluke.
.
If you are so anti-war, which I respect, why not join the Libertarian party?  Obama has continued the wars just as long as Bush had planned to, the Democrats voted overwhelmingly 99% to support the post 9/11 attack on Afghanistan.  Obama signed into law the power for him to declare anyone, including an American, a terrorist and secretly assassinate them without a trial or representation.  Obama has killed thousands with drone attacks and his ongoing wars.  At least Bush seemed to believe he was protecting the country, Obama seems to continue these wars for no clear reason. Yet the anti-war people all seem to lose their voices when Obama got into office.  Why?

Mark, suggest you google low fertility rates in Europe to udertand my point about Greece. When humanity follows the current path it’s been on, it leads to a dead end.  You don’t want to face what is going on in Europe because the stark reality of it is that decades of rampant abortion and artificial contraception are causing such low birth rates that the native populations are poised for huge declines.  At this point you’ll probably say the birth rate is so low because of the failed economic policies of Bush.  But, then if the economy is the sole predictor of fertility, why was there six children per family during the great depression?  The economy was worse then.

It shouldn’t surprise anyone that human beings will generally pick pleasure over work.  That’s the natural impulse.  Add widely available abortion and artifical contraception to that mix and you end up with a temptation that’s too good to resist.  The results of this - and it does take decades or even longer for it to become apparent - is what is happening in Europe (and most of the world too, but they are a little further back on the learning curve).  If these trends continue, the economic consequences could be very bad.  I cannot think of one successful human civilization where the population was in decline. 

In a sense you may be right.  Voting for Romney isn’t going to change the disaster I fear is coming, the best it could do is only slow it down.  But then again, voting for guys like Obama will not keep the status quo.  These guys are dead set on getting as much of the Freedom of Choice Act as possible into law.  While we have the ability to vote, we must do everything we can to prevent this from happening.  We must not be complicit.  What they want to do will have far worse long term consequences then all of the other things you have mentioned - and I do agree that those things are no good either.

I don’t think we’ll ever see abortion outlawed and certainly no one would be stupid enough to outlaw contraception.  That would never work.  The attitude of society in general means we will continue on with this Culture of Death until it runs its course.

2,000 years a go, in The Didache, the Apostles understood how evil abortion was and specifically named it as such along with infanticide and contraception.  They understood that these things ultimately do not lead to life.  They lead to “an absence of life” or, simply “death”.  This is the Culture of Death. 

Hi Jim,

I’ve seen Place Pigalle, but never been in. I’ll keep it in mind. If you like Mexican food this is just down the hill from there.
http://www.elpuercolloron.com

I didn’t mean Church was doomed, just that its position on birth control and abortion will become increasingly marginalized. You know perfectly that is direct the world is going. I think I saw the horse twitch :-)

Interesting news:

Ireland’s first abortion clinic opens in Belfast despite opposition
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irelands-first-abortion-clinic-opens-in-Belfast-despite-opposition-173672831.html

Irish women speak out in anger over their abortions in Britain
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/0417/1224314815319.html

Are you serious?  Isn’t our purpose in life to love everyone?  And isn’t God love?  Does this not mean that he loves everyone?  It is our job o make sure that everyone feels loved and accepted, and by what this is saying is the opposite of why Jesus came to the earth in the first place.  Jesus came to save the Christians not the sinners.

When Jesus came, there were no Christians.  Jesus came to save the many, sinners included.  That is why he spent so much time with them.  Our purpose in life is first, to love God and spend eternity with Him and second, to love our neighbor.

JD,

Tobacco and Alcohol kill a fair number people. We even tried to outlaw Alcohol during prohibition - you may recall how well that worked. Are you proposing that because a law might, or even does save lives that I am morally culpable for those lives simply by not creating laws to force people to do what they should?

May I ask why then is God Himself not similarly culpable under that standard since he does not enforce His laws on Earth? Oh, yeah - free will - Remember that one?

The laws of man are based on practical needs. Murder is generally illegal because society would break down if it were not. Yes, this one is also inline with God’s laws - generally speaking God’s laws are in fact a good idea.

It is simply unethical and immoral to blame me or anyone else for abortions to which I am not a party to and am at best only tangential involved with in that I may pay taxes, or insurance premiums, or vote representatives who believe most reasonably represent my interests in the government.

The Dorks who flew planes into the Twin Towers held the view that all Americans (and anyone doing business with them) were guilty some violation their beliefs and therefore subject to attack/death. I didn’t like that too much and I don’t like the light-weight version of it that you and Bishop seem hold.

I am troubled by your by your references to low birth rates of Europeans and I assume Americans.  You may be correct, mind as to the resulting demographic shift - A problem which both India and Israel also face with regard too minority Muslim populations. Never the less, and apart from the possibly racist undertones of all this, what are you proposing? That we should all have more children? Of course it would be better if we actually planned that. I would like to put my boys through college - That’s getting kind of tougher these you know.

It is simply preposterous to propose that we should have more children without significantly greater assistance with at least school and medical costs - the folks you seem to vote for have not been particular helpful in that regard.

Mark

Thanks for the recco—love Mexican food and will give it a try! You’ll like Place Pigalle——great view, great appetizers.

The Church’s position will not change no matter the increasing prevalence of secularization and relativism. This position was delivered to us by the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Regrettably, it may be more and more difficult for the Church to attempt to advance the reason within the Word Of God to reverse this but the Church will continue on with great hope and joy. You see our faith teaches us that the Church is really not a human institution—it is quite literally the Mystical Body Of Christ—- or as St. Paul put it “a divine treasure in an earthen jar”—- so while susceptible to human weakness and flaws at the heart of this Mystical Body is the Holy Spirit whose power and grace is beyond our imagination. Pope Benedict calls our joy a more humble joy than 50 years ago and perhaps that will help to improve our success.

But this grace will continue to advance and refine the Chruch’s positions and teachings and our Magisterium will respond accordingly. So to your point, “marginalized”, the Church will never be for its believers hold its treasure dear. But through the eyes of this world, particularly through the powerful, the wealthy and the influential, perhaps the Church will become more “marginalized"but it that will not be our end. 

You see the Bible shows us 10,000 years of history that suggests there have been many nations, powerful leaders, tremendous wealth, and fervent peoples who dramatically marginalized God and our faith, but they existed for a short periods of time—- they have all all faded away and what they built proved non-sustainable. So Mark, have hope, don’t fear that the Church will be marginalized or disappear or its teachings will lose releavance, they won’t. The world of Church believers may get smaller but there will always be those of us who know that within Christ is the only the objective Truth this world has ever known and in His Way is our path to joy and happiness and glory.

It is worth keeping yourself open to this and detaching oneself from the powers that swirl about trying to redefine truth and righteousness. Just take a stance that says “I am open to the truth and I will cooperate with its Grace” and see where it takes you.

And yes, your insights on Ireland are well founded. Who could have possible imagined that a country so thoroughly immersed in Faith could become so radically secularlized and also to have experienced the horrors of the abuse that occured within the Church. It is tragic.  The Church will rebuild itself but it will be a very trying time.

Be well, stay open to Christ, get to Place Pigalle and have a pint. I wish you the best. May the Peace of Christ be with you always.

Polytheist Mitt Romney’s investment in Stericycle netted him millions.  Stericycle did not perform abortions, as the earlier poster questioned, but disposed of aborted fetuses for profit. They did not just turn a blind eye to abortion mills, but actively provided them support services.  I find this unconscionable. Romney does not seem to be the choice to lead our nation towards a more loving, forgiving and supportive policy regarding the least fortunate among us.  The poor are a drain on his bottom line and must be cut loose.  If he can profit from the desperation of the poor, as he did with Stericycle, so much the better. C. S. Lewis describes Mormonism as not Christianity at all.  Romney puts tens of millions of his dollars, and hence his heart, into this heretical cult. I do not desire a litmus test for politicians as law, but I certainly prefer the man who has publicly declared giving his heart and life to our Lord Jesus Christ to lead this otherwise very secular nation towards a more loving future.

The Republican and Democrat parties remind me of the story Jesus told about the dad who told his two sons to go work in the fields. The first said, “OK, Dad” and the second said, “No way!!”. The first then went on his merry way to pursue his own devices while the second went to work in the fields. Was the father better honored by the words or by the actions?

Mark, yes.  Yes, we are responsible.  We are repsonsible because evil flourishes when good people do nothing.  When you turn your head for a moment, you find not only abortion, but also abortion allowable at any moment up to delivery.  You also find the abomination of partial birth abortion, which was outlawed in 2003.  You also find people neglecting infants born accidentally from botched late term abortions, which was outlawed in 2002 (BAIPA).  People, like teenagers, are always trying to push the limit. 

Now, President Obama supports the Freedom of Choice Act (google FOCA), which would elimiante parental consent laws for underage girls in states where they exist(they can have abortions without their parents having to be informed), eliminate conscience clauses for healthcare workers (participate in abortions or risk being fired if the employers so chooses), force Catholic hospitals to provide abortion services and abortifacient drugs (getting closer to this bit by bit with the HHS mandate), roll back the ban on partial birth abortion and repeal BAIPA.  So it starts off as just the right to choose and then it morphs into progressively uglier stuff like what is proposed in FOCA.  This is just awful and it’s being delivered to us primarily by the Democratic Party.

While we may not like it, yes, the solution is to have slow continuous population growth because going the other way simply won’t work out.  And, yes, I do have kids in college so I know the pain.  I can also say that, in general kids today have too much junk, which we have willingly provided them because “they needed it”.  We’re our own worst enemies.  I survived and thrived on a heck of a lot less then my kids.  I got a plactic bat and ball to have fun.  Today they need smart phones, computers, etc.  If we had to do it over again, the wife and I would cut out a lot of junk and have another child.

Every argument you have used, I have already used.  Every one of my family is a card carrying Democrat so it has been a long process.  Slowly I changed my mind on this whole thing a few years a go when I realized what the pope meant by “The Culture of Death”: rampant abortion and artificial contraception ultimately end us up with shrinking population and shrinking economy as well. It also spirals out of control to the point where we’re letting insanity take over by allowing things like underage girls having abortions without parental consent in many states (yes, it’s true).

Do I feel bad about the wars and all the assoicated death?  Of course.  Do I feel bad about union members not getting an extra percent raise on their contracts?  Yes.  Would it be nice to have government funded healthcare so we don’t have to worry about it?  Yes, sure.  How about full soical security at age 55?  That would be wonderful!!!  But all of this won’t mean a hill of beans if we remain in the grip of the Culture of Death, because there won’t be any people left to enjoy these nice things..

If you have time, suggest you read a book called, “Architects of the Culture of Death”.

@Mark Hinds said:
“It is simply preposterous to propose that we should have more children without significantly greater assistance with at least school and medical costs - the folks you seem to vote for have not been particular helpful in that regard.”
.
This is a very telling statement.  You expect assistance?  What university are you planning to send your children to?  What kind of medical care do they need?  What kind of car do you own?  How many cars?  How big is your flat?
Did you know not all people need to go to college? Some work their own way through. Some never go to college and succeed just fine. There are community colleges that are very inexpensive.
.
You are free, live in one of the richest countries in the world and you are asking for handouts?
.
Did it occur to you that the poor and immigrants are having children and are surviving just fine?  They may ride the bus, live 10 to an apartment and live off beans and rice, but they usually do that without assistance. 
.
If the richest people in the world, Europeans and Americans, cannot afford to have children, then no one can.

@Mary Angela Brinton said:
“The Republican and Democrat parties remind me of the story Jesus told about the dad who told his two sons to go work in the fields. The first said, “OK, Dad” and the second said, “No way!!”. The first then went on his merry way to pursue his own devices while the second went to work in the fields. Was the father better honored by the words or by the actions?”
.
While I found this statement intriguing, I’m not sure I get it.
- Who is which son?
- Who is working in the field?
- What does “working in the field” refer to?
.
I’m sure this must be obvious, but I actually came up with several conflicting examples when I tried to guess myself.
1) Democrats talk about helping the poor, Republicans give to charity
2) Democrats talk about jobs, Republicans hire people
3) Republicans talk about national defense, Democrats cause war though weakness
4) Democrats talk about race, Democrats are racists
5) Democrats talk about voting rights, but Democrats commit voter fraud
6) Democrats talk about women’s rights, but don’t think women can live without govt hand-outs
7) Democrats talk about equality and then pit groups against each other in racial and class attacks
8) Democrats talk about civil rights but ignore the 1st right, the right to life
.
Anyway you see my dilemma.

Somehow I missed the last messages here. Well, time has gone by and perhaps we’ve all gone on to bigger and better arguments, but now that I’ve found this thread again I thought I’d say hello, and asked about people reaction to the election results. As most can image I’m fairly pleased.

Was anyone actually surprised? I’d been track Nate Solver’s blog (538) and he pretty much nailed all along.

Is anyone missing “Traditional America”? :-)

Mark

Who wouldn’t be pleased by re-electing a guy who is all for forcing the evil Catholic Church to provide free abortion inducing pills to the poor, repressed women of this nation?

Dear Ann (Nonymous),

> Who wouldn’t be pleased by re-electing a guy who is all
> for forcing the evil Catholic Church to provide free
> abortion inducing pills to the poor, repressed women of
> this nation?

Actually, I’m just pleased with all the Obama gifts got… :-)

Keep it up, I’m sure this kind attitude will work much
better in the next election.

I guess I’ll put this one down as a not pleased.

I don’t think Obama has given us enough gifts.  Birth control is everyone’s right and it should be free.

mark et al,

you should both be really delighted with the gifts that the Obamanation has in mind for this Christmas season it will be incredible to see the emergence of a Godless christmas for an increasingly Godless country—- but just for your added pleasure also watch for:

1. watch your company matching 401 K contribution go to zero so they can pay for the astronomical leap in healthcare costs to business

2. look for that special pink slip as you lose your job because of the mania to “tax the rich!” unfolds

3. look for govt spending to SOAR with no spending cuts whatsoever

4. look for the birthrate to continue to drop so we are at NEGATIVE population growth so there are EVEN FEWER people to pay taxes and shoulder the massive debt and tax bill in the near future

5. Look for the collapse of Soc Security and Medicare within 5 years

6. Look for the increased intensity for euthanasia and assisted-suicide by the govt.

7. look for continued nuclear activities with iran and north korea as this empty headed administration continues to roll through lackeys and political operatives in critical diplomatic and military functions

8. just as in Canada look for the govt to begin to advocate for public school instruction on the 6 genders

9. watch for a nosedive recession that will make the last one look like a picnic

10. watch for the shut down of all Catholic hospitals, schools and universities and the imprisonment of its bishops

Those Obama guys just are the absolute best aren’t they?

Jim Mc,

You and the black man haters have been spewing this garbage since before the 2008 election.  Where is it?  Where’s the proof?  Where’s the breaking stories? Come on… any day now… any day now…

You’re claiming health care costs would magically go down without the PPACA (Obamacare - which it’s not - it’s TeddyCare, championed by a lifelong Catholic servant of the American people).

You’re claiming rich people hired NO ONE in the 1990’s because taxes were so high.

You hate birth control because it’ll deprive you of the next generation of illegitimate, unwanted cheap labor taxpayers. Nice, dude.

You people claiming Republicans would NOT end Medicare, even though they explicitly said they would, and that Obama is doing nothing to fix it - THEN complain he’s cutting it by $700 billion (just like Ryan’s plan).

What are you saying we should do about Iran and N. Korea?  Ground war?  Full-metal invasion?  Sanctions and world pressure don’t seem to be enough for you, so “boot on the ground” will fix it?

The SIX genders? No, there are 8 (XXY, XO, XYY, XXYY, XX males, XXX females. Plus plain old XX and XY).  God makes eight different types of genders. God is smarter than you. You do not know His will for all the “in-betweeners” and their various social manifestations. So hate them, and for sure keep the next generation ignorant of them.  That’ll fix it.

Yeah, that recession is coming, along with sky high interest rates and skyrocketing inflation any day now…any day now…even after 4 years and with private sector job growth anemic but positive, it’s gonna crash any day now…spending growth has been less than any president since Eisenhower, but it’s gonna explode any day now…

And the Catholics know people are capable of arresting and imprisoning others for simply disagreeing with them, heck even burning them since God hates the sight of blood. But arresting bishops? Yeah, whatever. What they should fear is getting their tax exempt status revoked over their constant meddling in politics. Speak your political minds, but when you do, you should refuse tax exempt status - which only serves to stand between you and your conscience. Come on, Catholics!  You can turn down a handout from Satan, right?

Jim,

My question was whether or not people were surprised by the outcome of the election. I already know that many here have an absurdly negative perception of the President and the Democrat’s policies in general, but does this absurd perception carry over to honest surprise at the election results?

Jim Mc - you are SOOOO right.  Lord help us survive the next 4 years!

@ Mark Hinds
Yes, I was surprised and I will ad disappointed by the results of the elections - my family has a small business and you can believe that when they talk about taxing the “rich” they don’t just mean Millionaires - they are talking about small business owners that get taxed on profits / inventory / accounts receivable (meaning money you have not yet received) plus your own income!  I want you to notice that I do not personally pocket all that money - but will be taxed for it!!!  The taxes on Small Business in this Country is incredible and if you don’t think so - start one up!!!  It personally fries me when you hear politicians talking about raising taxes on the evil bad “rich” and with the way the tax codes are written encompass the everyday Joe’s trying to stay a float in a difficult economy - and by the way those same politicians half of which couldn’t run McDonald’s!  So ya, I was surprised that over 50% of the Country has not been able to see what kind of a President we had and have now re-elected again!
I will ad that I am all the more resolved to keep fighting despite the difficult situation we face for the next 4 years.
God bless, Rebecca

Mark Hinds, One reason why Pres Obama was re-elected is because of your support of the Dems Platform, which you backed it with Biblical verses and your kind of Logic. At any rate, I,m happy to note in some of your comments that you don’t like abortion. Will you please convince Pres Obama to dislike abortion as well? I know you’re good in convincing people, including Pres Obama even up to the extent of convincing him to issue this mandate: Stop Killing the Unborn. If Pres Obama issued this mandate, he’d be the greatest President the world has ever known.

Hi Mark

I was more disappointed than surprised by the election—- I was staggered by seeing the President win the election by essentially running on nothing—- no clear point of view—- an unraveling of the Middle East—- missed promises on Iran and Afghanistan ( I distinctly remember somebody saying in 2008 the troops would be home in 14 months)—more people on food stamps ( by about 12 million)—no trade deals—just a whole lot of rhetoric and the same empty-headed trash talk that Ridi exemplifies so well.

To criticize this the complete lack of accomplishment of this President is to be accused being a racist, or an extreme conservative , or whatever trash., slander and libel the lunatic left wants to throw at people. It is a sad state of affairs. I have given up on politics and these half-wits within our govt. and their sad followers as well. I sold my business , let quite a few people go (just refused to pay a 30 percent more in healthcare and refuse to comply with a govt. that mandates I provide healthcare for principles that go against my faith) and plan to deepen my faith and outreach and watch this great nation of ours continue to unravel.

No need to respond to the bullying that Ridi advocates or the falsehoods he puts forward. the numbers are already in—- more people in poverty, more people un employed, taxes going up, healthcare costs have already gone up, birth rate way down ( which by the way Ridi is a critical sign of a culture in decline). violence numbers all on the rise , freedoms being curtailed , partisan gridlock—- the evidence is all there—- we are in for a crushing failure over the next four years and many more after.

People like Ridi think the US will last forever so they can lash out and kill the Country’s values and change the Constitution, and upend every truth we have ever known as a nation. Well when you do the Country fades , ad that is what’s happening right now….. America is fading away…....and I am fine with that because this election sealed that outcome. But it is ok because in the equation Of God and Country I’ll take God every time. Many authentic Catholics are now stepping away and reconnecting at an even deeper level with their faith , banding together and looking to lead people back to Christ and to help care neighbors and friends. We don’t have time anymore to talk to,idiots like Ridi or endlessly debate this political nonsense. you see Mark, real authentic Christians are the only ones who ever get anything real done in this Country. omwe are going back to work promotingnthenteachings of Christ, coming together in an ever deeper and richer communion with other followers and banding together to help people out .

The Govt is going to fail , and so will the economy but here is the beautiful thing that our Christian Founding Fathers figured out a long time ago….we don’t need the govt. We really don’t—-so we are going to find those places where people truly have limited their govt.—- have passed on govt. handouts——provide low taxes—-  and people like Ridi can destroy the failing remnants of this Country—- it is already in motion.

I said it,to you awhile back turn to God , get to know Jesus Christ on a personal level, pray, help others around you, step away from the circle of half-wits who hold power but don’t know how to,get anything done.Find other like minded people and just step away from the haters—the ones who refuse to tell the truth and refuse to look at the truth. they don’t matter anymore—- Jesus Christ is the truth——- his ideas created the value of freedom that has defined this Country’s success—- People like Ridi have distorted it to mean “we can do anything we want”—- it’s a lie—- we are free to do what is right—and what is right is clearly spelled out in Our Faith. Get to know it better. Bishop Paprocki calling out intrinsic evils is just spelling out what our excellent definitions of what is right. we Catholics are free to choose that and we have, we will not comply with the secular totalitarianism of this Administration.

So in many ways I am happy with the election outcome, because seeing how badly this Administration will fail and ruin the Country has led many Catholics begin to choose better and more effective ways to insulate ourselves from the slander, hate and invectives from foamy mouthed idiots like Ridi.

Reynaldo,

I doubt that you’d find many people who ‘like’ abortion.
I think you should explain more clearly what you mean.

I of course disagree with your notions about the unborn. The choice to carry forward a pregnancy is a private matter.

Hi Jim,

> I was more disappointed than surprised by the election
Sound fairly honest, sorry that we couldn’t both pleased.

> I was staggered by seeing the President win the
> election by essentially running on nothing
You might consider proof by contradiction.

A. The President ran on nothing
B. The President won the election
C. Democracy works

All three of these cannot be true.
B is empirically true, so either C is
false, or A - I choose A.

While your litany of grievances against the President is
quite voluminous, I (and it would seem most) find it unmoving. I’m not much in the mood to do a point by point rebuttal, but if you say pick your 1 or 2 complaints and ask why a disagree I’d take a stab at explaining my myself.

You do understand the irony of
> slander and libel,
and this in the same sentence… yes?
> the lunatic left wants to throw at people.

Mark

Rebecca,

Since you were surprised then perhaps re-evaluated the understanding of the situation, or least consider the possibility that you are mistaken on some accounts.

I work for a small business - 35 people, $3M sales last year. Taxes are a secondary (at best) problem for us; selling enough, or more of our products is what we’re struggling with. As far as I can tell we don’t really pay much fed tax when we’re not in the black - last year we were barely profitable.

I’m afraid it seems to me that you simply don’t like to pay your taxes because you’ve had your head filled with the selfish talk/thinking of the conservative world.

>It personally fries me when you hear politicians talking
>about raising taxes on the evil bad “rich”
It personally fries me that to hear people who will not be affected by such taxes worry about raising taxes by 3-4 stinking points on income over $250k. I make about $100k, so yes it make no difference to me. I guess I must just one those lazy 47 percenters that make up 51% of the voting public.

The tax increases you’re so worried about are merely ending the unwarranted and unpaid for tax cuts from the previous administration. They didn’t squat for economic growth and ballooned the deficit.

Mark

Mark Hinds, Your comments posted on Oct 12, 2012 said: “I’m not in favor of abortion….” This leaves no doubt that you don’t like abortion. I sense that you’re a kind of person, who tremendously enjoys outsmarting people via your reasoning prowess. I enjoy reading your arguments and agree with you   in some points but not in its entirety. Like,“Abortion ls a choice.” It is a choice, indeed but an evil one. Killing the unborn is intrinsically evil. It’s as evil as killing 6-7 schoolchildren in CT. Pres Obama wept to manifest his pity to these young ones, who were brutally murdered. Pretty soon, Pres Obama will also have pity and will weep at the sight of a baby, dismembered by the abortionist, inside the womb of the mother.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the note. My displeasure is not with the election outcome. Honestly I have no real grievance with this President personall,y and I find the conservative/liberal, rep./democrat, pro-this/pro-that labeling unproductive, a waste of time, and frankly boring. My displeasure has been that this recent election has brought me to a full recognition that we as a country, a people, and a democracy have arrived at a crossroads.
The President is just the right guy, at the right place, at the right time—but in this election our society has concluded and decided that the rights of the individual absolutely trump the common good. The President is not leading this—he is just an enabler—trying to give as many people everything that they want and are looking for—- my real displeasure is recognizing that our society has clearly decided that our future lies in the prioritization of the individual over the common good.

This truly and definitively makes God a distant second in our society—The Pope’s words now become prophetic—” The real problem at this moment in our history is that God is disappearing from the human horizon and with this dimming of light comes a humanity that is losing its bearings…..with increasingly evident destructive effects.”—Pope Benedict XVI

So now we’ll see this scenario rapidly begin playing out before our eyes. The President isn’t the one leading this nor developing it—our countrymen are—- so it is being defined by “history”—the President is just the right place/right time guy on stage right now—introducing the next act. He is a good actor—charming, well spoken, but the play is already written and we have seen the outcome time and time again in history.

We are no different from the Romans, the Greeks, the great Chinese Dynasties—- we are witnessing the beginnig of the decline of our unique American civilization—Bishop Paprocki’s counsel on avoiding intrinsic evil (which was the whole point of this thread) was very sage counsel—what the good Bishop might have included in his advice is that these evils are accelerating the unraveling of our American civilization and in this we will see tremendous increases in violence, poverty, institutional overthrow (like the Church and now even the freedoms in the Constitution that are being encroached upon) and overall an increase in all aspects of the “culture of death” and the power of the State.

So what can we do? (that is, if you agree with the general trend because some peope things these times are just terrific) I would say—Seek a relationship with Jesus Christ. Know him, come to really understand him. Pray to him and listen for his voice/counsel and his words in moments of quiet prayer but also in the minds and voices of people that really need your help. Also turn towards God—for while this “play” of death and destruction is going to play out God is an absolute—- we are presently witnessing this in CT, many prayers, many rituals, many seekers fro God right now—-in while this plays out we can resist all aspects of the emergence of a this new darkness—eliminate all participation in all aspects of it—- find like -minded people, band together, seek out opportunities for reasoned discourse, and most of all try to keep the flame flickering on God first in your heart, then in the common good, then with others helping to contribute to a well-formed love of God and a cogent and solid understanding of faith. Forgive my earlier words of frustration—as we see this inevitable unraveling continue,  it is easy to get angry and engage impulsively because of its senselessness and its inconsistencies with our history, our values and the Founding Fathers’ wisdom.

Mark, I hope you can find the time and the desire to re-examine your beliefs and your position with regards to your relationship with Christ, the common good and your helping of others. I know in our earlier conversations you noted some concerns for the common good but it seemed you had not yet fully reconciled them with your broader positions. As always I wish you well, and I pray for you that the grace of God fully comes upon you and continues to call you to seek the Truth. I have found that that quest best begins with Jesus Christ and is sustained through the hope that you get from Him as He leads you to a certainty that this life will end with Him, and begin again with Him welcoming you to a new life eternally in Him. Be well and Peace.