-255x255.jpg "Courtesy of the Diocese of Birmingham, Ala.")
There was an added joy in the Diocese of Birmingham, Ala., during Lent and the Easter Octave as the members of the formerly schismatic Christ the King Monastery in Cullman were reconciled with the Catholic Church.
After years of discussion between Birmingham’s bishops and the monastery, on May 1 Bishop Robert Baker received the two remaining monks’ vows as Benedictine hermits.
The road hasn’t been without its difficulties.
Christ the King Abbey was founded around 1984 by Benedictine Father Leonard Giardina, formerly a member of the St. Bernard Monastery in Cullman. In the 1980s he had contact with the Society of Saint Pius X but ended the association in late 1989, then explored other avenues, but was never formally linked with the St. Pius X Society.
Bishop Baker describes the schismatic abbey as being sui generis — a community of their own kind.
Now because of the community’s reunion with the Church after fulfilling all the requirements expressed by Bishop Baker in consultation with the Vatican, the faithful may have access to worship at the monastery. This community will continue celebrating Mass in the Latin Tridentine form, known since Pope Benedict’s 2007 motu propio letter Summorum Pontificum as the extraordinary form of the Roman rite.
To Bishop Baker’s knowledge, this is one of the first such schismatic groups in the United States to be formally reunited.
“It is somewhat unique as an effort at reconciliation,” he explained. “The discussions leading to this reconciliation were very delicate and complex and took place over a number of years with both Bishop (emeritus) David Foley, my predecessor, and myself, aided by a canon lawyer who had worked for the Vatican, Msgr. Anthony La Femina.”
“We had much prayer and good will on both sides going into this effort,” Bishop Baker reflected. “We all listened to the Holy Spirit, and now we are seeing the fruits of our efforts.”
For one, attendance at the traditional Latin Mass celebrated daily at the monastery has nearly tripled, according to one of the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius who were invited by Bishop Baker to help with the transition. The Cullman church is in the country, yet now 20 or more faithful attend the daily 7am Mass.
“In the short time we’ve been there, as word of mouth spreads, we’re getting more and more,” finds Father James Isaacson of the Canons Regular, who celebrates the Masses for the monks and the people coming to the monastery chapel.
Along with two Canons Regular brothers, he was sent by Father C. Frank Phillips, pastor of St. John Cantius in Chicago, at the request of Bishop Baker, to help the monastery seeking readmission to the Church until something permanent could be established.
“You see how the Holy Spirit works in the life of the Church,” Father Phillips said. “Ten or 20 years ago we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Thanks to the generosity of the Holy Father and of the bishops in obedience to the Holy Father, many people are reconciled in the faith.”
Brother Sebastian Glentz and Brother Michael ¬Sauntner are the two monks who reconciled with the Church. Both have been at Christ the King over 20 years and for a period of time were functioning as priests. However, since there is a question about the validity of their ordination, they do not presently function as priests and have taken the title of “Brother” as canonical hermits of the diocese.
Ongoing visits to the abbey began with Bishop Foley and then continued with Bishop Baker. In December 2010, seeing the divisions within the community, Abbot Leonard gave Brother Sebastian permission to contact Msgr. La Femina about reconciling with the authority of the Church.
Over the years the abbey grew to a maximum of 11 monks and five sisters. Both sedevacantists and those who believe in valid papal succession were part of the community or among those attending services at the monastery. Sedevacantists believe papal succession stopped after Pius XII’s 1958 death or after John XXIII’s 1963 death.
“Abbot Leonard was never a sedevacantist,” Brother Sebastian Glentz explained. “We did not discuss the issue; we prayed about it. Behind the scenes, our community was divided.”
By December 2010 three of six monks had left: two unreconciled sedevacantists and one who chose to reconcile with the Church on his own. There also were three sisters. All three left, one to reconcile with Rome.
Although the monastery is in the Bible Belt and not a hub of sedevacantist activity, most of the 60 to 100-plus people attending the later of the two Sunday Masses were of sedevacantist mindset.
As the abbot approached death, the increasing divisions motivated Brothers Sebastian and Michael to seek reconciliation. But any reconciliation was put on hold because of a sudden decline in his health and his subsequent death in January 2011.
In early March, the two remaining monks closed the church to the public, placing a statement about their intended reconciliation in their last bulletin.
Bishop Baker makes special note of “the humility and cooperation of these two men.”
Father Phillips gives both monks great credit for living out the vow of obedience and also the great humility they have displayed in submitting themselves to the local bishop.
“In an age when everyone wants to do what they want, here is an actual example of an obedient servant, of knowing and living the humility of the saints themselves in making this type of decision,” said Father Phillips, who also pointed to the gracious permission given the Canons by Chicago’s Cardinal Francis George to help in Alabama.
“That all ties to the idea you can’t do anything by yourself, but everyone is subject to higher authority. We were then able to help Bishop Baker,” he said.
“None of this is by chance. It’s by the promptings of the Holy Spirit,” he added. “You can boil it down very simply: not my will; thine.”
The Vatican requested as a condition of their reconciliation that the two monks return to the canonical status they had before receiving their ordination.
They chose to be accepted as canonical hermits under the canon governing hermits in the Code of Canon Law, while the Holy See examines the validity of their ordinations.
Msgr. La Femina, who was an official of the Roman Curia for 26 years, began visiting the abbey with Bishop Baker two years ago. He noted the big step these two men took. He added, “We are praying now that the sedevacantist congregation returns.”
The monks hope the Vatican eventually recognizes the ordinations, but they are prepared to fully accept whatever the Vatican decides.
Brother Sebastian explained that he and Brother Michael’s “whole Lenten season was a real Lent” because they had to cease functioning as priests as they came under Rome.
“But because of obedience it makes it easier,” he said, looking to the example of Padre Pio. “Not that we are any way near Padre Pio, but he was told not to say public Mass or hear confessions, and he obeyed. We look upon our obedience as the obedience he gave the Church.”
Charles Rumore, president of the chapter in the Birmingham Diocese of Una Voce, a lay association promoting the traditional Latin Mass, sees further good growing from this reconciliation. “This is a huge deal because this is tangible fruit of the tree of Summorum Pontificum,” he said, referring to Pope Benedict’s letter “On the Use of the Roman Liturgy Prior to the Reform of 1970.”
There are only two churches in the diocese that weekly celebrate the extraordinary form of the Mass, necessitating long drives for some. Now the reunited monastery church makes a third.
Rumore expressed thanks to Bishop Baker in this regard. “This humble bishop has responded in an authentic and generous way to Pope Benedict’s document to re-establish our connection to the traditional liturgy and has removed some of the obstacles.”
He also sees this reconciliation as tangible proof of the point Pope Benedict made in the May 13 instruction Universae Ecclesiae on the application of Summorum Pontificum.
“What this does is set an example for others to return, whether they be lay or religious,” Rumore said.
In fact, the Pope’s moves on the liturgy had a constructive bearing on this reconciliation.
“We could see he’s trying to put a sense of the sacred back into the faith of the people,” Brother Sebastian said. “We know that will not happen overnight. We hope our coming over will assist in that.”
In fact, Brother Sebastian said he hopes this move will inspire others to consider reconciliation. The monastery has already received some inquiries.
Bishop Baker points to the providential timing of the monks’ return: They entered the Church in the season of Lent and on Divine Mercy Sunday received their vows — “in the reconciliation pattern of Lent and Mercy Sunday.”
Brother Sebastian sees the same significance. In fact, if Divine Mercy Sunday hadn’t fallen on May 1, the day would be the feast of St. Joseph the Worker, to whom the monks are very devoted.
He noted that that Sunday’s Gospel tells of Our Lord giving the power to forgive sins, and “it was very significant with us coming back into the Church, going to confession.”
Since it was also the first day of the month of the Blessed Mother, Brother Michael crowned the Blessed Mother at the end of Mass.
“All of it had to be done on that day without electricity because of the tornado,” Brother Sebastian noted. “But after the ceremony was over and Mass over, our power came back on.”
Surely it was heaven lighting up with joy.
Register staff writer Joseph Pronechen is based in Trumbull, Connecticut.
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This is truly wonderful news for the Church. :)
All of this stress and strain could have been obviated if the abrogated Tridentine Mass had been found twenty years earlier to have never been abrogated.I find the practical applications of Faith take on the dimensions of a hobby wherein we wait for time to pass or Church leaders to die. We will recognize very quickly (those who have not already) that Ratzinger/Benedict was the ONLY bishop/cardinal in the world in 2005 and today who was fully capable of serving as the Pope.
THats great news! I attended one of their chapels in Birmingham for a few years. Fr. Sebastian baptised 2 of my kids. I new some day they would come into full communion, as I & my family have. I never heard Fr Sebastian or Abbot Leonard speak a single ill word about the magesterium. Only that they held some of the nuances imposed by VatII with suspision. Sad that the others could not see the light. Welcome home Frs Sebastian & Michael!
Bishop Foley has been the brunt of unfair criticism from traditional Catholics in the past. I hope this story, once and for all, brings an end to that.
This is an encouraging sign that things are changing for the better. Deo gratias!
This is a beautiful story. It is heartwarming to know of the return of this monastery.
I fear, however, that because of this success there will be those who will demand a return to the Latin Mass in total, abandoning the Novo Ordo.
While I welcome all who wish to return and I accept the Tridentine Mass as the extraordinary form of the Mass, I greatly prefer the Novo Ordo and would not wish to see it go.
I think there is room in our church for both.
I for one would like to see the Novus Ordo die a slow death. The Protestant-inspired Novus Ordo, with its lay ministers and communion in hand, and “talky talky” talking points, has ruined traditional Catholicism. The Eastern Orthodox would rather die than shape their Divine Liturgy into a Novus Ordo mode. Rome needs to STOP the innovations and stick to Tradition.
With all respect, the Novus Ordo was dead on arrival. Maybe not in our lifetimes but at some point the man-centered, horizontal, “we are church” mass will be abrogated once and for all.
This is GREAT news, for the Society of St. John Cantius !!!!
As a parishioner, who was also confirmed according to the Codified missal at
St. Cantius in the 1990’s plus a lifelong attendee, I’m happy that zeal for souls has rubbed off. Gradually, the time may come when I won’t have to say,
” I attend only the Low Mass. If I had known anything more, I would have said so under the sodium pentathol. ” Hopefully, those ” in community ” will respond to grace, and find solace and consolation in the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Sorrowful, Immaculate Heart of Mary: Two hearts in One, (with the addition of the one still in exile) three hearts in One. Deo Gratias !!!
Once upon a time, I heard Fr. Leonard say in a sermon that humility, charity, and courtesy are traditional, too.
I am so glad his spiritual sons are reconciled with the Church.
This is indeed wonderful news. Now I have another place to go to worship when visiting ETWN and
the church in Hanceville.
The Lord works in mysterious ways.
I am a convert (2005) and a resident of Cullman County. Although I find myself on the conservative/traditionalist side, I am not an aficionado of the Extraordinary Form. Nevertheless, I was pleasantly surprised and highly pleased to read the news of the reconciliation in today’s Birmingham diocesan newspaper. All praise be to God!
Bill,
The Tridentine Mass was found to have never been abrogated 25 years ago. A nine cardinal commission including Cardinals Ratzinger, Stickler and Oddi all reached that conclusion in 1986.
Pope John Paul II did not make this public and did not follow their reccomendations. European bishops complained, so Pope John II allowed the TLM in the 1988 indult only with the bishop’s permission, even though his 1986 commmision said the TLM was never abrogated and no one needs a bishop’s permission.
Don`t be surprised to see a new form of the Mass comming to a Curch near
you, that will combine the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine into the same
Mass. The discussions and tug of war going on at this very moment in
Rome, is nothing more that a continuation of the same struggle between
progressive liberals and conservative hard liners that took place formulating Vat. II consiliar documents. Pope Benedict is trying to reign
in some of the secular modernism and few people know that when He was
a Cardinal in Germany He invited the FSSP order to establish themselves there. The FSSP as you may know, only celebrates Mass in Latin by Tridentine rite. Sadly, all this could have been avoided along with VatII
Pax To All
I meant to add that every time a schism is ended, or a division is healed, we are all one step closer to our ultimate spiritual reconciliation in Christ.
I immediately called the brethren of Christ the King to share my joy with them.
The sedevacantists in effect take the position that the Holy Spirit guided the Church all the way from Pentecost (A.D. 29 ?) all the way until: (pick one) a) the death of Pius XII; b) the death of John XXIII; or c) the conclusion of Vatican II.
Do they ever think about the illogic of that position? Is the Holy Spirit supposed to have inspired Archbishop LeFebvre to have split with Rome? Or what?
TeaPot562
Praise God that another breach is being healed!
I think some people are in need of the very sense of obedience demonstrated by the returning brothers. Pious traditionalists are neither pious nor traditional for attacking the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I love the Extraordinary Form, but to denigrate one form over another is to miss the opportunity to express what all true Catholics know in their hearts, i.e., obedience to the Magisterium of the Church. A real traditionalist would also see that the abuses accompanying the celebration of the Ordinary Form (OF) do not render the OF itself invalid (Abusus non tollit usum.). The OF liturgy is, in many ways, more prone to abuse because there are so many myths about it.
My wife and I have attended a TLM chapel, which was assumed by the FSSP about five years ago, or many years. In conversation with a priest, who was a diocesan priest until recently, we learned that he had come to the FSSP because he could not accept “failure”. It was taken as a a “given” in his Novus Ordo parish that once a child received either First Communion or Confirmation, the child would rarely attend Mass or receive further religious instruction. This priest assured us that the Novus Ordo “church” with its mass (sic) was doomed as it could not attract the right men for the priesthood and it could not retain members.
Think of this: In 1962, the TLM was said IN EVERY PARISH IN THE WORLD, and it had been the same, with 22 slight modifications, for the previous 500 YEARS.
My wife, children and I became very close to Bishop Baker before he left South Carolina. We attend the Latin Mass where ever we can find it, and when Bishop Baker was here in SC (as still is now in SC) the Latin Mass community has struggled to get permission and acceptance from the Chancery.
We had gotten to know him in the middle of the tragic loss of our 3 year old sons life (Joshua). Over the 15 days it took to find our little boys body the Bishop reguarly called and spoke with us to reassure us of his prayers and Gods love and the joy of our son being a Saint of the Church since he died an innocent.
Through his stay here in SC it was apparent to us that the ecclesiastical political machine in SC was repressing Bishop Baker, by taking advantage of his kind nature, and it has been a joy to see him doing good things in Alabama that he was kept from doing here in South Carolina. It is like seeing a flower bloom!
It is so wonderful to see the changes that Bishop Baker has helped bring in the Church as a whole in Alabama and for our small part here in SC.
You all are blessed in Alabama to have the Latin Mass with all the trappings and joys that come with a Latin Mass Community being allowed to grow and being supported by your Bishop. We do not have that here in SC and it is very sad and painful. We are still wandering in the desert here in SC. It has been a long 40 plus years, and many of us are getting tired of driving, fighting for the Mass, and pleading with our Church. Short of a gift directly from heaven, we are unlikely to ever see the Latin Mass free and accessible here in SC. You see, it is not about souls here in SC it is about $$$$$$$ and power.
We look forward to visiting you all at Mass if we can get down your way.
There is nothing beautiful about this story. It is an act of myopia & treachery on a devious scale and this monastery will pay for it in the long run.
The SSPX are not schismatic - this is an ignorant inaccuracy. The SSPX are treated by The Pope as an internal church matter therefore they cannot be schismatic. The Orthodox churches are schismatic which is why they are dealt with externally. Neither the pope nor the Cardinal Castrillon-Hoyos who was in charge of their case before talks with The SSPX restarted last year, agree with this inaccurate view of The Confraternity. They may have less than “full communiuon” with Rome but let us be charitably accurate about this please.
The trouble with the Ordinary form is that it all depends on
how it is celebrated. The Ordinary Form contains “landmines’
that open the door to instant abuses. I have been to very few
OF Masses where I did not wind up wincing or walking away in
disgust, whether it was because of the alter girls or the Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion in secular dress (often a woman in a low cut dress), the Protestant style hymns, communion in hand, the loud and tacky Kiss of Peace and the handshaking mania—all of these things make the OF a Protestant flavored Mass, and an insult to Tradition. THe Mass does not need novelities and innovation, and Rome needs to stop tinkering with its traditions. This is why many Catholics have converted to the Orthodox Church.
My young family and I have been attending Mass at Christ the King since the reconciliation of brothers Sebastian and Michael. I pray they will be found to have valid orders by Rome and will resume offering the Sacrifice! It has been a wonderful source of grace for us and we have seen quite a transformation in our lives! Our Lord is moving greatly here in this area of Alabama. The Members of St. John Cantius have been wonderful to us all. They offer the Mass every day and on the weekends. I must admit that if it were not for the pure humility of the two Brothers, the faithful would not be able to attend. They own the abbey and its property. We are grateful to them for their gracious acceptance of our family and all those who have come to assist at Mass. May they win numerous souls to Christ for their acts of humility!!
Keep in mind in what follows, I’m saying NOTHING against the Extraordinary Form—I love and venerate all the authorized Liturgies of the Church—but rather, against a certain triumphalist attitude some people have towards it.
\\Think of this: In 1962, the TLM was said IN EVERY PARISH IN THE WORLD, and
it had been the same, with 22 slight modifications, for the previous 500
YEARS.\\
No, it wasn’t. Think rather of this:
It wasn’t celebrated in Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with Rome (to one of which I am attached).
It wasn’t celebrated in the Archdiocese of Milan where the Ambrosian Rite was used, which differs from from the Roman Rite in several particulars.
It wasn’t celebrated in every parish in along the Adriatic, where the Roman Rite was celebrated openly in Church Slavonic BEFORE Vatican II for centuries by Catholic priests in communion with Rome.
There were many variant uses of the different religious orders, such as Carmelite and Dominican.
**A real traditionalist would also
see that the abuses accompanying the celebration of the Ordinary Form (OF)
do not render the OF itself invalid (Abusus non tollit usum.). The OF
liturgy is, in many ways, more prone to abuse because there are so many
myths about it.**
The abuses in some, even many, celebrations of the OF are not intrinsic to the OF, but are done IN SPITE OF IT. As a priest says on another blog, “Say the black, do the red, and the abuses automatically disappear.”
There were abuses in the pre-V2 rite, too, but they were of another kind
And so it goes.
\\There is nothing beautiful about this story. It is an act of myopia & treachery on a devious scale and this monastery will pay for it in the long run.\\
I could go mad, in a nice way, trying to figure out how reconciliation with the Catholic Church and being in visible communion with the Pope is an act of myopia and treachery.
The so called abuses in the pre-Vatican II rite were
invosible to the congregation at large—they were
formula driven—but the liturgical abuses in the
Novus Ordo are major and blatant: liturgical dancing,
Eucharistic Ministers in secular clothing distributing
communion, made up rubrics, Protestant hymns, Protestant
style vestments, re-designed church interiors—no altar rails,
altar tables rather than high altars, lack of sacred
iconography, etc., etc. While the OF may be valid when
said right, it is displeasing and insulting on an
intelligence level. It lacks mystery, mysticism,
quiet prayer time—it is centered on MAN. It is an awful, awful Mass
\and it should die.
I have to agree with JudeThom. I have been to Masses of the Novus Ordo
and have seen abuses that were unheard of before Vat II. I have been a
Catholic (Roman) all my life and remember well the Tridentine Mass and in
fact served them as an alter boy. Sadly I have been to or seen Masses today that were guitar masses and masses with five piece bands and dancers
and left in disbelief. They were actually more like performances than the
celebration of the Holy Eucharist. Many post VatII celebrations have been
taken to the extreme in an effort to accomodate Dignatatus Humanae and incorporate other faiths into the celebration and in the process have destroyed the Reverance and Sacredness of the Holy Eucharist.
JudeThom
I agree with you and disagree. Yes there are wondefully presented NO Masses. I can think on one right off hand (St. Mary’s Greenville SC Fr. Newman’s Mass), but there you have it as well. Unless I attend (as example) St. Marys or more specifically St. Mary’s when Fr. Newman is saying Mass, I have no certainty that the Mass will be presented with out abuse. (and I am priest shopping)
I have been to Latin Masses that were poorly celebrated, even muttled through, but rarely if ever did I see abuse. I am sure some one could provide an example of where an abuse has been seen, but typically I know I am going to recieve a good solid, orthodox, do the red say the black Mass if I assist at a Latin Mass. There is just not much of a “roll of the dice” thingey at the Latin Mass.
Also:
It is not just the Mass / Language/ Validity or the like that are singularly the issue. In many cases I find that the people attending the NO Mass often are not disposed to the higher level of reverence that one would expect at any Mass.
Mini Skirts, see through shirts, flip flops, gym shorts…. chewing gum in Mass, talking on cell phone, (Actually there is a priest in my home town who answered his phone during a NO concelebration at the concecration and walked of to the side of the altar and had a little talkey, talkey, nice, nice…. and no it was not the hospital calling).
The people I see assisting at the Latin Mass are there to go to Mass. Not there to meet friends, or show some leg, or meet chicks. They are there to meet GOD.
You go ahead and take a chance with your soul. I am responsible for my children getting to heaven. I am not going to take a chance with their or my soul. The more reverent and holy the better.
Go to the SSPX and there is no doubt that you will get the REAL THING. Novus Ordo is light Budlight. No flavor and no substance. Just watered down nothing!
James Dorchak, You`ve made an excellent point when you stated that you
have to go priest shopping and also I agree with the intent and motive of
the attendee point you made. This is another result, in my view of VatII
changes. There has been unfortunately a lot of misinterpretation of Post
VatII Conciliar Documents for instance; it was never intended that alter girls and Eucharistic ministers be used as extensively as they have been.
The use of these was only intended in extreme necessities. At this very moment Rome is working on, at the request of the Holy Father, a combined
rite that would blend both the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine into one
celebration. Also I agree with you on the casual dress and actions which
I believe are the result of misconceptions on the changes of VatII, Motu
Propio was supposed to correct some of that unfortunately, it has been
ignored. The letter Universae Ecclesia may help. Personally, I don`t believe we need to change our mass to accommodate, there are many paths to Christ and people are free to choose.
\\The so called abuses in the pre-Vatican II rite were
invosible to the congregation at large—they were
formula driven—but the liturgical abuses in the
Novus Ordo are major and blatant\\
Are you saying that abuses that are not seen by the congregation are acceptable?
\\ It lacks mystery, mysticism, quiet prayer time\\
The Eucharistic Sacrifice is not supposed to be the time for you to say your private prayers. Many Popes of modern times have taught this.
**Sadly I have been to or seen Masses today that were guitar masses and masses with five piece bands and dancers.**
I will say nothing in favor of so-called liturgical dancing; there is really no such thing, and the practice has been repeatedly condemned by Rome.
But what is the intrinsic difference between a “five-piece band” and an orchestra at Mass? That was the norm at one period on the Continent. And there is nothing wrong with a guitar when played beautifully. However, I will agree that the ability to strum three chords and use a capo does not make one qualified to perform in public anywhere.
Hold Fast to Traditions! I wonder what the Monastery had to give up in the name of Eccuminism in order to get approval of the Novus Ordo? Did they have to accept the pastoral views of the non Dogmatic Vatican 2 council that was 180 degrees different that the Dogmatic Council of Trent that said that to do away with the Tridentine Latin Mass will incur the curse of God and Sts. Peter and Paul! Did they have to declare with the American Bishops who in the last decade that the Jews do not need conversion to the Roman Catholic Faith?
So who was wrong in the first place? A priest who continued to do his duty by offering the Latin Mass for the salvation of souls even when persecuted by modern bishops just like St. Anthanasius was. But canon law applies for the sake of preserving tradition not persecuting it so it is lawful to resist the destruction of the Faith. Even canon law gives permission of “out of necessity”.
Where would the Church be today without the faithful priests and the society of Pius X keeping it alive to prove to the wolves in sheeps clothing that they couldn’t destroy the Latin Mass with Vatican 2 or by bringing an “extraordinary” form into areas to draw people away from St. Pius X society in order to indocrinate them with modernism mixed with wheat! We are living the Apocalypse and someday we will find out that the “!@#$% of babylon” was in fact the Sacrilege of the Novus ordo Missale.
Fr. Basil,
Communion in hand was forbidden by Rome, ditto for altar girls but cinferences of US Bishops allowed it and the pope at the time felt it was too late to stem the tide. Many convents—Novus Ordo convenmts where the nuns do not wear habits—engage in liturgical dancing. I know of one in Philadelphia. The fact is, since Vatican II, many priests and bishops and nuns have turned a deaf ear to Rome. Where have you been? You may like a guitar at Mass, but a guitar is a novelty post Vatican II innovation invented “in the spirit of Vatican II.” It is not part of the traditional Mass. The emphasis on not saying private prayers at Mass does not give liturgists and iconoclastic reformers the right to dismantle traditional and destroy some sacred traditions, so your argument falls flat here. I tell you, the Novus Ordo Masses I have attended here in Philadelphia have been away. They have a Protestant flavor, they are artistically unpleasing and pedestrian and too talky, talky, with people running everywhere shaking hands and even talking before Mass as if the church was a theater. The Novus Ordo Mass must die a slow death. Imagine the Eastern Orthodox having guitars at their Divine Liturgy! No, you cannot imagine this because it would never happen. Rome needs to stop with the novelities.
I am a very conservative Catholic, but I do not wish to return to the days when women prayed the rosary during the Latin mass and the men sat on the church steps smoking. If the extraordinary form is being made available to those who prefer it, then great, but stop with the elitism please. Please show me a depiction of the Last Supper that in any way resembles the Tridentime mass. If Jesus were to come himself this very day and “recline at table” with his disciples the elitist Traditionalists would throw him out of their church.
\\I tell you, the Novus Ordo Masses I have attended here in Philadelphia have been away. They have a Protestant flavor, they are artistically unpleasing and pedestrian and too talky, talky, with people running everywhere shaking hands and even talking before Mass as if the church was a theater.\\
Then go to an Eastern Catholic Church and enjoy worship once again.
\\ The Novus Ordo Mass must die a slow death. Imagine the Eastern Orthodox having guitars at their Divine Liturgy! \\
There are Orthodox who react to organs the way you react to guitars.
I recently attended a Syro Malabar Rite mass (an eastern-rite mass from India, in communion with Rome). It was very long and beautiful, and the music was not organ and chanting. It actually sounded very modern, with stringed instruments, flutes, accordion and other instruments that I am sure my Traditionalist friends would heartily condemn. So please don’t keep referring to your supposed solidarity with “eastern Catholics” because it is a bigger world than you imagine or have likely experienced.
True, many Orthodox hate organs but they are above criticism when it comes to outright liturgical abuse. There is next to zero liturgical abuse in the Orthodox Church. The biggest problem they have might be people talking during Divine Liturgy, or a priest who is somehow less reverent in the way he says the Divine Liturgy. The organ has never been a part of traditional Orthodox worship, so why introduce it? It is now in some Orthodox parishes becuase of the great influx of Protestant and Catholic converts to Orthodoxy. But at least an organ has “classical” attributes and roots. A guitar, on the other hand, has more of what one would call hard core MTV-folk music non-liturgical roots, and it is a novelty incorporated into the Novus Ordo many years ago by “with it in the spirit of Vatican II” iconoclasts/priests and bishops who wanted to make the Mass less traditionally Catholic and more understandable to Protestants. The guitar, happily, is fading away in many Protestant-Catholic hybrid Novus Ordo Masses. I do attend Eastern Catholic parishes and they stick to tradition, no novelities, no altar girls swinging their long sexy hair, no lay ministers in drab secular clothing playing priest. But as a Catholic one should not have to hike far and wide to find a decent, prayerful, tradition-bound Mass where the priest doesn’t tamper with the rubrics.
There is no elitism in the arguments against the OF at all. That must exist in your head. Calling for a sense of the sacred and reverence is not elitist, but sensible. The fact is, in many Novus Ordo parishes people talk and socialize before Mass, they have lost a sense of the Real Presence—most Novus Ordo Catholics do not even believe in the Real Presence anymore. The majority do not genuflect, they talk during Mass, they drop the host, they receive in flip flops and shorts. When Jesus worshipped in the synogogue incense was used and the Jewish ritual was very elaborate. Jesus never said this was wrong. He expected it, but he became very upset when the “casual” Novus Ordo money changers began to get too casual and put in their money changing tables. Then he got angry.
“Eccuminism.” If a comment starts off on such a mistaken note, how can it be taken seriously? “...to get approval of the Novus Ordo…”—which means what, exactly?
As far as the “old days” go for me in my parish in the 1970’s up until the middle 80’s all of the practices in the church itself were traditional as the Council called for : people received the Host standing but on the tongue, the priests still wore cassocks not black suits, but after the head pastor died, everything turned lousy; insipid music instead of the brown Peoples Mass Book 1970,lay Ministers of Holy Communion, the priests shaking hands with many people, and after the middle 90’s female altar servers and a very graphic Sex-ed program called Fully alive which the principal a habit-less nun foisted on the kids in 1995. I went to a Society of St Pius V, which IS schismatic until 2005, and now in 2010,it’s almost back to the 60’s and 70’s, with the new 40 year old pastor.
Nadster, I don`t know where you attended Latin Mass but where I attended
men and womnan dressed up and did`nt stand around outside smoking. Fr. Basil, you would not want to attend the guitar mass I have here in Bucks
County Pa. unless you want wear a hearing aid for therest ofyour life. The
mass was complete with elctronic speakers that hurt my ears and I am hard of hearin. And now for some facts about Novus Ordo. A fastidious Latinist
has counted appro. four hundred discrepancies between the prescribed
English translation made by the Intern. Committee on English in the Liturgy (ICEL) and the Novus Ordo promulgated by Pope Paul VI. Fr. Stephen
Somerville an original member of ICEL, recently revealed in the Nationl
Catholic Register that these discrepancies were often made deliberatley.
“We found subtle ways of changing words….....he stated, “We were literally changing the faith of the Catholic Church because we were changing the way it prays.” (Brian McGuire “Liturgical Translations Face
Vatican Overhaul,” Vol. 76 No. 4 1/23-29/00 pg.1). Fr. Basil, to correct
an earlier statement of yours, the Tridentine has been around since the
days of Rome yr. 300. The Council of Trent only codified the more properly
called Old Roman rite and was a modest revision and was only informally
known as the Tridentine some seven years later. It was not to initiate any new practices. Fr. Basil, not all Orthodox are in Communion with the
Pope. Is yours? Nadster, I don`t have a problem with people who pray Mary`s Rosary at Mass. The Rosary dose after all contain the mysteries
of Christ, and anything that honors Mary honors the Son.
Horrible news. Ratzingers reform of the reform will start out in places like this.They will slowly corrupt and compromise the TLM. Just watch.
Yo, Dogs!
Let’s focus in on the ” Throne of Solomon ” plus the prayers at the stone. The latter ( 1962 missal ) should elevate the ’ servants ’ to the ” mystical alter ” of the furnace of the three children - Ananias, Azarias, and Misael ( the Canticle of the Three Children ) as the Angel with the gold censer a.k.a.
Christ and the B.V.M.; ergo, who is this Altar, or throne - bed - and litter?
Who is being ezcluded from the ” Big ” picture. How many of the NCR postings have their home/residence consecrated to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Sorrowful, Immaculate Heart of Mary? How many are ” searching ” when any Catholic in form and Catholic in nature doesn’t need to search because there is no morality and ethics outside of the Catholic Church where All in all in contemplation on the bed and active on the litter resides.
Johnny I hate to tell you this but, it is already too late. Corruption from VatII and the Novus Ordo has already damaged the Church badly. If you
need proof there is an article in Renew America May 23 about Bishop Matthew Clark of the Rochester Diocese on his appointments of lay woman administrators 5 of them in charge of 11 churches. In some of the Churches
in fact one in paricular the Priest is part time and has a business on the side.These woman have direct pastoral care and give sermons distribute communion etc. Some of them are members of the confederation for the ordination of woman priests. I understand that some of this has also spread to Syracuse. This Clark is the same Bisop who wrote a book on sex education in 1986 and was told to remove his imprimatur from it. As far as music for mass is concerned, it used to be hymns sung reverantly
or Gregorian Chant, now it is whatever flies. As I said in an earlier
post here, we don`t need to protestanize or change our ancient traditions
in order to accommodate. There are Orthodox Western rites, Greek, Russian,
Serb, Lutheran, Baptist, Eastern Orthodox, Evangelicum, many, many paths to Christ. You are free to choose.
\\The organ has never been a part of traditional
Orthodox worship, so why introduce it? It is now in some Orthodox parishes
becuase of the great influx of Protestant and Catholic converts to
Orthodoxy.\\
Wrong.
Organs were introduced into Greek and Antiochian Orthodox parishes in the USA and Diaspora decades before any so-called “great influx of converts” at the same time mixed choirs were introduced. The purpose of the introduction of choirs was to get MORE people participating in the Liturgy than just a few cantors singing the responses. Organs were odd, because traditional Byzantine chant has microtonal intervals (like the note between F and F#). Slavs had mixed choirs for centuries, but even though their music was based on the Western scale, they never used organs.
||So please don’t keep referring to your supposed solidarity with “eastern Catholics” because it is
a bigger world than you imagine or have likely experienced.||
I don’t pretend to speak to the uses of non-Byzantine Eastern Churches.
**Fr. Basil, you would not want to attend the guitar mass I have here in Bucks
County Pa. unless you want wear a hearing aid for therest ofyour life. The
mass was complete with elctronic speakers that hurt my ears and I am hard of
hearin.**
One thing I’ve noticed is the overamplification of EVERYTHING in Western (both Protestant and Catholic) Churches.
In any case, I am saddened that what should be a cause of rejoicing has instead become another occasion of bitterness and bickering, and I repent my part in it.
Forgive me.
Guitars etc are profance instruments and have no place, like dancing and all the other NO illicit behaviours, in the Holy Mass. They are not the norm, never were, and can never be so. The Roan Catholic Faith is embodies only in the Traditional Latin Mass which is normal and has been celebrated from long before the papacy of Pope Gregort The Great who was the first pope to codify its use. Even Pope Benedict XVI has said that the NO is “fabricated” and is not part of the organic liturgical process normally associtated with the western latin rite church.
The NO has severely damaged the church and continues to do so. It is linguistically divisive and many bishops and priests doisobey not only its rubrics but also the advice given about it by the pope - new translation, communion in the hand and so on.
LeonG is right: this is sad news, and it won’t take long for the monastery to realize their mistake. They, as the FSSP, will become a mere side chapel in a theologically pluralistic church. Our local FSSP parish hands over 65% of parishoners’ donations to support local Novus Ordo schools and programs - NONE of which are orthodox! And their silence against Modernism is deafening.
It may be time to look into the Orthodox Church
given the news about Bishop Matthew Clark. Before
he died, Malachi Martin said that Jesus Christ had
no further “use” for the Roman Catholic Church, that
it had fallen into apostasy. I did not want to
believe this for a long time but it may be too late.
The women priest people are absolute innovators and
once in power, you will see mega super change and a
totally re-de-constructed Liturgy. The third secret of Fatima:
apostasy in the Church, Vatican II. Orthodoxy may be the
answer.
Fr. Basil,
Stop quibbling over micro-chip details. Organs? Okay, you score
one for good organ history, but you know what I am saying,
generally: the Eastern churches have NOT lost the valuable
thread of tradition, and they resist liturgical novelities.
There it is in a nutshell.
The Novus Ordo Mass is a Mess. There it is in a nutshell.
There are only 2 options left without turning yourselves into Sedevacantists.
Option 1: Attend Mass and all parish activities at the SSPX exclusively. Forget St. John Cantius since they are bi-rituals. Forget Institute of Christ the King since they are silent on the corruption of Vatican II and Modernism.
Option 2: Evacuate to the Eastern Rite Catholic Church. Find one under the leadership of a Traditionalist Bishop. Flee to the Romanian or Ukrainian (The latter is clannish and does not welcome non-Ukrainians. The Romanians are much more open minded). I fled to one at St. George Romanian Catholic Church in Aurora, Illinois. One of these days I will return to Our Lady Immaculate in Oak Park, Illinois of the SSPX.
Well we have pretty much described some of the problems with the Church today. There are however some very good, excelant in fact, bishops and I
am thinking of ArchBishop Nolan of New York. The Dominicans particularly,
of St. Josephs Province, seem to have it all together and even have a waiting list of candidates for a vocation weekend retreat. Their Noviate
in D.C. is full and doubled up. Now a Saint who went through exactly what we are going through, just happens to be the Saint for the day. We can pray to him for encouragement and hope. St. Justin (+165) was in Rome and
confronted with many religious opinions, but as he said “only one-certain
the certainty of the Catholic Church, and before he was put to death
when he sealed his testimony with his blood, the prefect asked him “Do you think Justin that by dying you will go to heaven”? And he replied,“I
don`t think I know”. Pax
\\I fled to one at St. George Romanian Catholic Church in Aurora, Illinois.\\
A dear friend of mine was recently ordained there as a deacon!
P.S. On my last post. I am sorry I spelled Archbishop Dolans name wrong.
Sorry for that. Pax everyone.
Its always good when brothers are of one accord and any news which shows the united will of brethren is the work of the Holy Spirit.Praise be the Lord.
I am amazed at the elitism, arrogance and unfaithfulness (yes, I mean it) of many Traditionalists. Protestants you are really. Guitar is a profane instrument? Who says? Did Jesus come down from heaven and tell you that? What is a guitar, but a piece of wood with strings stretched across it. Ever look inside a piano? You will see wood and metal with strings stretched across it. Elton John plays the piano, as do many other unfaithful modernists - does that make the instrument evil? Organ? Most organs these days are electonic. Oh my Gosh - electronic instruments in church, THE HUMANITY!!!
I am not speaking from emotion. I have known many Traditionalist families. I even attended Latin masses back in the Y2K era when private revelation seemed to take precendence over the Magisterium. I am always amazed how Traditionalists, Sedavacantists (sp?) and other Catholic-protesters will cling to private relevations and ignore the teaching authority of the church, JUST BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH IT. Bayside, John Leary…the list goes on an on. These folks all had one thing in common, and it resounded very much like the comments in this forum.
I know a large Traditionalist family that attended mass with head coverings, refused to shake hands with their fellow parishioners, knelt for communion, and even left the church when they didn’t like something. Guess what? They are falling apart because mom and dad are getting a divorce, and the kids have all stopped going to church and are into serious sin. Why? They only knew human traditions and didn’t know Jesus.
Lonely Catholic
I am sorry you are not in touch with the Holy Fathers return to Orthodox Catholic teachings (Ie “the teachings of the Catholic Church”), and that you have not realized that Pope Benidict 16th, has abandond the heterodox perversion of the faith that has occurred because of the protestantation of the Church.
The banners and butterflies approach to the faith has failed and “Large Traditional Families” are leading the way back to faithfulness… right behind the Holy Father.
Catch up with the Church and try to lose that banners and butterfiles chip on your sholder. It is just not charitable!
Jim Dorchak
Qm2ss.blogspot.com
Some claim there is no “abuse” in the TLM. Some claim the TLM brings a sense of the sacred and mystery. The Canon of the Mass was silently said and even the Epiclesis and Words of Institution were not audible beyond the ears of the altar boys or deacon. What is so good about that? I know the Latin, but the silence of the Low Mass and the spoken Canon of the Mass should never have been silently said. Technically it wasn’t an abuse, but it was terrible that these prayers could not be shared with the people. For the average man and woman in the congregation, the Collects and Canon are hard to understand in the Latin. That is why I praise God that in the Novus Ordo we can hear and pray those prayers in English (or German or Italian or Spanish or French or Swedish or Polish or Russian or Swahili or Portuguese or Chinese. Really, my friends, the TLM is not understandable. That said, it’s simple enough and easy enough to understand and sing congregationally the Gloria, Credo, Kyrie (in Greek!), Agnus Dei. Praise God for the vernacular Mass!
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