I am so grateful you wrote about this today. I’ve been struggling with something similar: surrogacy. Friends of ours can’t conceive and I want to be their surrogate so badly, but my husband is against it and, to prove his point?, had us sit down with our priest who explained that the church is against surrogacy as well. I just can’t come to terms, much like your reader, with how helping and loving and doing something positive for someone else is “bad.”

I just wanted to get the first comment for once.

Seriously though, a priest my family knows discussed this issue once with us.  Whenever he came up to a teaching he felt difficult to accept, he’d pull a Charles V, “How could the Church, in its 2000 years of wisdom could be wrong, and me with my 20/30/40+ years be right in defying it?”  That wouldn’t fix his feeling of dissatisfaction, so he’d go on and focus his studies on the point of disagreement.  He’d never be public about his intellectual disagreement, and every time, after time and study, he’d come around to the Church’s opinion.

Missed it by two minutes.

This is a hard one for me, as I struggle with the very same issue as your subject (not with family, but with friends) and I really fall where she falls on this issue. But, Simcha said, “, or if she taught her own children that her sister’s lifestyle was moral. But having a good relationship with someone who is in dissent is not the same as being in dissent.”  I cannot see how one could teach their children, who presumably are growing up knowing their cousins, that the situation is immoral and expect to have a harmonious relationship.  Children are not stupid.  Even my four-year-old would have serious problems reconciling this.

We certainly demand a lot of children these days, don’t we?  When the life of the average American was hard to distinguish, on the outside, from the life of the average Christian, it was easy to treat everyone well, without having to think about it very hard.  Not so anymore, when someone you know and like may be into something that would have been considered unacceptable by everyone just a few decades ago.

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This makes things very tricky, but it’s also an opportunity.  When I’m talking to my own kids, I consider it a very good opportunity to teach them about how Christ wants us to treat everyone:  you treat other people well, period.  Even if we still lived on Decent Living Street in 1950’s America, eventually we’d come across someone who lived an immoral life.  Better to already be in the habit of treating this person with respect, than to have to adjust our habits as an adult.

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I think the trap Christians fall into, when they’re trying to figure out how to deal with people whose lifestyles they consider sinful, is to feel like they, the Christians, are somehow being gauche or incommodious - that the disparity between us and them is always OUR burden.  It doesn’t occur to us that the immoral folks probably have the same discomfort:  what are the lesbian parents going to say to their kids about our weird Catholic family?  How do they explain OUR bizarre and unnatural practices?  If we’re really living a Catholic life, there WILL be things that need explaining!!

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It seems to me that if there is a close enough relationship between us and the other parents (I realize this wouldn’t work in every circumstance) it would be very worthwhile to just sit down one day and come to an agreement about how we’re going to handle our differences, where the children are concerned.  Make it clear, on both sides, that the kids will be respectful about the other family’s weirdness, and that if any unpleasantness arises, the families will deal with it together.  Again, I know that wouldn’t always work - but I think it doesn’t even occur to people to try it sometimes.  And I think some very fruitful things could come of such an agreement, both for the relationship of the parents, and for the way the kids grow up thinking about (respectively) those horrible Catholics and those horrible lesbians.

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Nuts, I have to go bring the kids to school.  Hope this isn’t too incoherent.

I don’t struggle with this issue. But I am sympathetic. My brother is gay and hopes to “marry” a man and adopt children. I’ve told him we would not be able to attend such a “wedding” but do love him. I know that, should that day ever come, a lot of people will be hurt, including myself. It is very difficult because you do love them and you do want them to be happy. But if you really believe homosexual acts are wrong, then you do not want to condone anything that will encourage said acts, like “gay marriage.” It doesn’t mean you don’t love them or want them happy and it doesn’t mean their kids aren’t great kids. It means you love them enough to accept the pain and choose what you believe will get them to Heaven.

I love your response (above). God always hates the sin and loves the sinner.  We should do likewise.

Obedience is what you do, not what you feel

Simcha, where I struggle with the kids issue is that some, including my brother, think homosexuality as okay and normal should be taught from a very young age. (Not as a sexual subject, but as two princes/two princesses instead of prince and princess.) I am all for treating everyone with charity, but I am also very concerned about not confusing my children or losing their innocence. Whenever my brother plays with my children, I stay nearby or have my husband or father nearby to ensure the subject does not come up. Until they are old enough to properly understand, anyone my brother is with will be his “friend”. I haven’t had to tread the water yet of explaining to my children that “uncle X is in a morally sinful relationship with Mr. Y. We should pray for them but always treat them with charity” and seen how a child would handle it. It is not always easy for adults to act with charity to someone who lives immorally or condones what they condemn. I don’t know yet how a child would handle it.

If just doing what mommy church says without wanting to is all we’ve got, that’s good enough. For now. As Simcha said, God will enlighten you if you want him to - when you are ready.

Who was it that said, ” I never said it was going to be easy.”  Struggle is the conversion process.  I cannot contain all of the wisdom that God has showered on us through the teachings of the Church.  All I can possibly do is try to understand what is good and act in goodness.  We have a clear example of what Love is through Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross.  The Church has 1 Christ already, I don’t need to try and take His place.  What I am called to do is to act in love.  That is what we are commanded to do.  Hate the sin; love the sinner. 

Yes, Simcha I agree that you can feel one emotion and act completely different to that feeling when it comes obedience.  Conflicting? Yes.  Contradictory?  Sometimes.  Challenging? Always.  Trust in the goodness and the wisdom, keep your focus on Christ and fill up on Grace through the sacraments.  Because we cannot do this on our own.

So far, I have always found that if I sit with my dissent, pray and wait, the wisdom and understanding come. That has been my experience every time. But, I’m not dead yet, so perhaps there will be a time when it doesn’t happen. Still, I have dissented a lot and I am clearly in midlife so I not betting on it.

I have two gay brothers.  I love them to pieces.  My children adore them. The older kids know their uncles are gay.  Neither of my brothers are (or ever were) Catholic.

My children know the church teachings on homosexuality (and everything else!) They also know we are called to “love our neighbor.”  My parents tried “shunning” my brother; that did not change anything.  So now we all love them both.  One of them is partnered and we love him too.  He’s a very sweet person.

What you are saying resonates with me.  I think I can see both sides of the issue but having chosen to be Catholic, I have chosen to be under the discipline of the church. 

But truthfully, Simcha,even if I disagreed with you (as I may have once or twice before), I’d still love the post.  I love the way you speak your mind, with love and humor and sensitivity. 

PS—My theological credentials are the same as yours

Remember the whole thing about divorce and remarriage?  Which never seems to be a problem anymore?  I distinctly remember being in second or third grade and realizing that my wacky, but wonderful grandmother, who had been married four times, was not exactly living the fullness of church teaching.  Never mind that she was Jewish. My mother said to me something along the lines that yes, her lifestyle fell short of what the church hoped for people, but that certainly didn’t mean that we didn’t love her.

That made sense to me then, and it does now. Did it help to make me into a church minister who has spent over twenty years helping the local tribunal with annulments?  I doubt it.

I think that one can love one’s family and friends without agreeing with everything they do. I always thought that this is how God loves us.  Some might call it it dissent, but I call it life with less than perfect edges.

Now that I am finishing this, I’m remembering that what I heard in my CCD class was that one should not talk nor sit down at table with a public sinner like my grandmother. Well, when was the last time you heard that from the pulpit, a teacher or in any Catholic forum about the divorced and remarried?

“I cannot see how one could teach their children, who presumably are growing up knowing their cousins, that the situation is immoral and expect to have a harmonious relationship.  Children are not stupid.”

You are so right, momofthree, children are not stupid. It is so worrisome how little credit they are given in today’s society. As a Catholic, I am daily teaching my children things that could lead them to potentially unharmonious relationships. They know the neighbors down the street are not married but are living together. They understand my cousin bounces around in homosexual relationships. They know their friend has two moms. They know my sister and her family do not go to Mass and do not baptize their children. Does this lead them to an unharmonious relationship with any of these people. No. It teaches them to love everyone no matter where they are in life. It teaches them that even though not everyone is following the teachings of the Catholic Church, each and every person is made in the image and likeness of God and should be treated as such. Children can be taught by example how to treat others even if you do not agree with how those people are living. As you said, children are not stupid. Give them the credit they deserve and lead by a loving, Christ-like example.

Perhaps one way to love and serve in this situation is to have a man, (your husband, brother or son) step up, lovingly and without judgement, to be a father to the children in the lesbian home. 

I worry most about the children in these families, not because they aren’t loved by adults around them, but because they will come to know in their hearts that something may be missing - a father or a mother.  It will be decades, probably, before we really know how the brave new world of moral relativity has affected them.  But, in our faith we have the Trinity, and in this case, God the Son might be a prominent and loving and influential Person for the children in this relationship.

“My brother is gay and hopes to “marry” a man and adopt children. I’ve told him we would not be able to attend such a “wedding” but do love him. It is very difficult because you do love them and you do want them to be happy.”

I dunno, Katherine. Do you really want your brother to be happy? You seem to think that the only way he’s going to get to Heaven is to resign himself to a life of loneliness, with no hope for love and intimacy and commitment. What kind of happiness is that? Why is it that Straight people are encouraged to date, get engaged, marry, and build lifes and families together in the context of monogamy and commitment, and that this is a good and noble thing ... but for Gay people to do exactly the same is somehow a BAD thing?  To me this seems like a very poor value judgment.

If you can’t bring yourself to attend your brother’s wedding, you admit it will hurt you, it will hurt him, and it will undoubtedly hurt others. Where’s the “happiness” in THAT?

I find myself talking to a lot of my friends at school about these issues (we’re university students), and this article makes me feel a little bit better about that. There are some teachings we don’t see the point to, and I try to ask them to think about the Church as being our mother in these situations: Sure, we don’t always get why she says what she says, and we don’t always want to obey, but we owe it to her to at least try to understand that she has our best interests at heart when she says it. Obedience is not an easy thing to do, especially, like you say, Simcha, when we know it could or would hurt someone we love. I try to do the same thing with my gay friends as you suggest the reader do; I try to love them the best that I can, because I know that none of us is perfect. They know I don’t think what they’re doing is right, but that doesn’t stop me from loving them as Christ commanded.

@Chuck:  you may be interested in the blog of Steve Gershom, who is a celibate gay Catholic.  In answer to questions like yours (“What kind of happiness is that?”) he answers: 
“It’s so kind of you to offer me your pity. But really, I’d so much rather have God and celibacy than sex and the howling void.”

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http://www.stevegershom.com/2011/11/dear-atheist-readers/

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Everyone, if you haven’t been reading Steve Gershom, you’re missing out!

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www.stevegershom.com

Try to learn the basis for the churches teaching.  In his case, I think the theology of the body would help. Also look to the Church Fathers. There is much ancient Wisdom backing up all teaching…It’s not just a “position”

When our children are old enough, we have to teach them that (a) sin doesn’t always look ugly from the outside and (b) God can make good come out of bad.  This doesn’t prove that bad isn’t really bad; it proves that God really is good.

Excellent article and some excellent responses.  The think we need to always remember is that everyone sins, some just sin a bit more spectacularly and publicly than others.

If kids are taught Church teaching, they will figure the rest out.  Sin, in the intellectual, bookish sense does not need examples provided.  Life will take care of that part.

We also must remember that ultimate happiness will not happen on this side of life.  True happiness will come when we abide with God forever.  Choosing on the side of God in this life will not always be easy.

A wise priest friend of mine once said that family is rarely called on to minister to family.  We ARE called on to love our families.  Perhaps someone else is the one to do the admonishing.

Oh Simcha,
I love you, I love you, I love you.
You’re a fine writer for these times, and a great rep for us women.
(Sorry if my comment contributes to a sinful build up of pride…)

I’m a Lutheran devotee of Simcha so I probably come at this from a different angle.  I think her advice is right nose, but I would add one thing, and that is we pray.  We pray for God to reveal in a way we understand why this is right or that if the church is caught up in human wrongness that leaders see what is his will.  Not that I’m saying the church will change its position per se, but that maybe the church is doing it wrong.  Now I don’t even know what “doing it right” looks like, but if that’s the case, God does, and we will eventually pick up on it.

Before you flame me, hear me out.  No one could argue that the Catholic Church has changed its mind on divorce and remarriage.  However, there was a time when the advice from most priests (and most other Christian leaders) to a woman whose husband abused her was bad.  While the effects were sometimes awful, some of it came from a good place, which was beliefs about forgiveness and redemption.  We didn’t understand the psychology of domestic violence and what the means for abusers and the abused.

The whole Christian world was pretty much doing it wrong on domestic violence.  The Catholic Church hasn’t changed it’s mind about divorce and remarriage, but through prayerful reflection and listening to God, it has changed what both abusers and the abused are told.

So maybe one solution for those who feel in dissent is to do exactly what Simcha said and continue to pray.  Pray that God opens your eyes or the eyes of the Church in cases the theology is sound, but perhaps the follow-through reflects human frailty.

I have a gay uncle who has been with his partner for over 30 years.  Our families are not close now, but when I was a child, he was always present at family holidays with his partner: I called them uncle x and uncle y.  I don’t recall them ever being affectionate in public.  It never once occurred to me as a child that they were “weird” or “different.”  Honestly, it didn’t occur to me to wonder.  I didn’t “assume” they were friends: I didn’t assume anything because I wasn’t thinking of it!  It was not until I overheard my dad tell another adult (when I was in 4th grade) that his brother was gay that I even began to even think about it.

Obviously, not all kids are like I was, but I have another close friend whose uncle was gay and came to all the family holidays with another man - it didn’t occur to my friend to wonder, either.  Many times children just go with the flow, and if no one says anything (one way or another), it might not occur to them to think anything of it until they are older.

Clearly it’s important to be concerned about kids, but sometimes I think we fail to consider that children don’t always carry all our cares and concerns, and half the time we end up imposing our own worries on them when they never would have had them in the first place.

I have really had to work to seperate judgement from being judgemental. Life is about a series of choices. Sometimes the choices will both follow church teaching and sometimes one will and another won’t.  We as the people who love really try to get our family and friends to follow the path that will lead to the least pain. But for whatever reason, they choose the other path.

I make a judgement and rule if it is in conformity with the church. I make a choice to myself follow the church teaching. And I love my friend. I love my family. I would not go to a wedding, I would attend a birthday party. I tell them I wish them every happiness, because I do. But eventually, that choice will lead to pain. They won’t be able to see how it is connected to the choice all the time, they will just be in pain.

And I can love them through that pain. Maybe I will be called to explain it to them, to teach that part of my faith. Or maybe I am just called to hold them while they cry and pray for them and model my own life, and nothing more.

I have recently reached out to help a friend after a surrogacy. She feels she did something generous and wonderful. I see her broken body and broken spirit. She fights with controlling her depression and her resentment as she watches the child her body believes is hers being raised by another. I have never told her she did a great thing. I have pointed her to resources to help deal with birth loss. I have helped her by being an ear to speak to because her marriage ended because of this. Her kids wonder why she won’t give them a sibling but will give to someone else. There is anger, there is great sadness. I invite her to movies and help her gain her dignity back by telling her she is a loving person and showing her she is loved. I support HER. I could not take her to fertility treatments. I can go to the hospital as she sits alone without a baby and her milk fills in and she looks at her new scars and still has no baby.

You are being judgemental if you condemn them for their choice. You make a judgement if you acknowledge it is a choice that seperates them from God and you wish you could get them reconnected. Some paths are painful. But it is that path they must follow. Hopefully in the end they can be reconciled to God. They can use the pain or their journey to figure out how to deal with what caused them to make that choice to begin with. They can find their way to God.

Simcha, I don’t disagree at all with what you’re saying.  I wonder, though, how long being respectful of each other’s “weirdness” can last.  As another reader pointed out, the homosexual community wants more than tolerance—they want approval and “equality” with true marriage.  I struggle with figuring out how to live harmoniously with people who want my children to accept their grave sin as normal, good, moral, just as valid as anything else, etc.  Sooner or later, it comes down to sin.  How can we have an honest, agreeable relationship within families when some family members genuinely believe the others are living in grave manifest sin, and those other family members know their lives are judged as sinful?  There’s no way to avoid the judging.  We are called to make honest judgments about sin.  We can’t pretend sin isn’t sin.  That doesn’t mean we’re pronouncing judgment on someone’s soul, but that we have made the good and right judgment that certain behavior is inherently sinful and cannot be considered right.  I just don’t see how that kind of dichotomy can exist and the family members still live in harmony.

I totally agree with you all that we have to love our neighbor. But I do feel like we have an obligation to speak the truth in love. There is a fine line between not harping on another’s sin ,  and failing to “admonish the sinner” for their own sake because we are afraid of the backlash we might suffer. Let’s all check our motives for silence.

That is the beauty of the saints, they were always able to point to the light in a way that treated the human person with respect and love. It takes courage, yes. But if we are not willing to speak, we will be swept away with the cultural tide.

It strikes me that this issue always seems to come down to two things:

1) the difference between kind and nice.

Kind and nice are definitely NOT the same thing. Niceness is the feather pillow with which souls are often smothered while kindness is a parents hand swatting a child away from a hot stove. Kindness allows and understands personal failings but works from love to help that person correct those failings. Niceness accepts and demands that we just allow that person to continue. Kindness is what gives a mother the ability to run to their child after they get in a fight in school and hug them, ask if they are ok, and only THEN begin correction. Niceness is what causes a parent to say that it must have been someone else’s fault and “no way could my child have done anything wrong!”

This applies to the second point very dramatically:

2) Trust in the Church and trust that the Church is guided/led by the holy spirit.

If we accept that Christ himself instituted the Catholic Church as His visible presence on Earth after His ascension and that She is guided by the Holy Spirit in all truth (in matters of faith and morals) then we must accept that her teachings are correct. When we find ourselves or others at variance from those teachings we must absolutely never be “nice” but we must always be kind. When I have found myself and my beliefs to be outside the safety of the Church I have had to slowly and carefully studied why the Church teaches these things. Yet, like St. Augustine “I have faith that I may understand, I do not understand that I might have faith”.

When and how to correct is a matter for another day, and I think that you can explain it much better than I could anyway.

That’s one man’s opinion anyway.

Geoff

This post is so timely.  I have been preparing to meet a HS friend of mine for coffee when I go to my parents’ home for a visit.  We actually went to Prom together, as friends.  He has in the past few years “come out” and actively pursued several unsuccessful relationships with other men.  I love him dearly, which is why I will tell him my concern for him, that I know he is acting out of the wound of his childhood sexual abuse and it would not be love to affirm that in him.  I would rather his wound be healed and he be made whole than to carry it around as he has.  I have found, in my informal observations with friends and acquaintances, that the majority of homosexuals I know are deeply wounded individuals or are seriously rebelling against unhappy family relationships.  I understand that is not the case with everyone, but I do love my friend and want him to be truly happy and at peace because I know he is not now.  Knowing his wounded background, I think it is unfair to him to pretend what he is doing is okay.

“I totally agree with you all that we have to love our neighbor. But I do feel like we have an obligation to speak the truth in love.”

... which apparently means the following:

You can’t be protected from job discrimination.
You must not be allowed to adopt children.
You can’t serve your country in the military.
You shouldn’t be allowed to teach in public schools.
You can’t join the Boy Scouts.
You shouldn’t be protected under existing “hate crimes” laws.
Civil unions and marriages are out of the question.
Are you already in a relationship? The two of you have to break up!
You have to be lonely and miserable for the rest of your life.

But remember: It’s only because we LOVE you!!!

This may seem strange, but the only Church teaching I had difficulty with when I converted was the death penalty.  In fact, I loved vigilante movies.  I accepted the teaching intellectually, but in my gut, I still fought it. 

Anyway, the important thing here was that I prayed to have this difficulty with Church teaching removed.  I had reached the point where I really WANTED to agree with the Church teaching.  That’s key; so much of this is in the will at a deep level.  When I prayed, over a short period of time, I realized that it was a case of myself not trusting God to provide justice, and wanting to see justice done according to my desires.

In the case of homosexuality, it is really easy to see the reason for the Church’s teaching based on our very bodies, the purpose of sex, etc.  But it’s hard to accept the teachings emotionally when there are people to close to us in that boat.  I second Simcha’s recommendation above of Steve Gershom.

@Chuck, as Christians, we are called to many difficult things in order to achieve salvation, chiefly, the taming of the passions.  This means all passions, not just sexual ones.  Sometimes that commitment means some radical measures, such as celibacy, or giving up favored foods to avoid gluttony and sloth, but isn’t an eternity with God worth it?

And Simcha, thanks for the post—a good reasonable response to a difficult and pertinent question.

No matter how loving and compassionate we are, sooner or later we’re going to be called names and falsely accused because of our stand. Jesus experienced that and if we follow Him, so will we. Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.

I applaud the common sense and the kindness of heart in this article, but I must disagree with this statement.

“Someone with no gay or lesbian friends or family members might be obligated to speak out publicly against homosexual behavior.”

There is no such person.

One or two generations ago, the gay or lesbian family and friends were usually closeted. They usually had to be in order to participate in society. Nowadays, if one publicly expressed disapproval of same-sex relationships, it would certainly be understandable if gay or lesbian family and friends kept quiet about their orientation in one’s presence. But there is no one who has no gay or lesbian friends or family members.

Chuck, by your logic, loving pedophiles would mean allowing them to abuse children, if that’s what made them happy. Loving alcoholics would mean encouraging them to abuse alcohol, if that’s what made them happy. And so on. Do you believe this is the case?

Cowalker, given that homosexuals only make up about 3-4% of the population, it’s certainly possible.

It seems that many times when we start trying to put our theology into practice as real live human beings with real live human beings, we get flummoxed.  as a used-to-be-gay, my friends and family experiences ran the gamut.  my parents are Pentacostal and back in the 80’s tried to shame me into leaving my sinful lifestyle.  to make a long story short, they eventually abandoned that tactic and walked a very fine line for which I am ever grateful.

My mom told me that she loved me and always would, and acted on that love in many small ways.  she also told me that my girlfriend (which ever one it was at the time) was welcome to come to family gatherings and stay the night, but not in the same room as me. somehow, with God’s Grace, she was able to walk that line between love the sinner and hate the sin, without making me feel shame.

God used my experiences with every loving Christian I interacted with to show me His continuing love for me, in spite of my sin.  and when I was ready to come back to God, I attended a number of churches that accepted and affirmed active homosexuality, and you know what I discovered?  I didn’t want to be in a church that accepted that.  My path led me to the Catholic Church.

I guess I’m just trying to offer a different perspective to those who have actively gay family members.  It is possible, with prayer, to truly live that old adage “love the sinner, hate the sin.”  My mom did it, you can too.

I love this conversation! In particular, the points brought up by carriekwi and Geoff—that there is a distinction between loving our neighbor and being “nice” (good article on this, by the way: http://humanepursuits.com/2012/01/19/the-bible-and-the-better-business-bureau/). I love the Church and cannot imagine ever living without Her; She guides me through the rough waters of this life and anchors me against the storm. But in many ways, I am a lousy Catholic, especially in the sense of being a witness to others. I work with many secular people and rarely know how to respond to their life choices or how to handle their response to MY life choices. On certain occasions (few and far between), I have listened to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and said only as much as needed to be said and with all the proper love and humility. But the rest of the time, I feel like I’m floundering, and in my uncertainty, VERY weak and a horrible witness to my faith!

So many of your posts hit home with me. I could comment so much on this subject but I’ll just add this: many of your readers are parents of younger children, maybe up to young teens? I envision most of these parents as striving to raise their children to the best of their ability to be faithful and orthodox Catholics, yes. They attempt to set a good and prayerful example, taking them to Mass regularly. They teach the children the commandments and the evils of the world to avoid. So then one of the children grows-up and announces they might be homosexual? No-way, heh? Can’t happen to you? We are dealing with this very thing in my family. It really shudder’s everything you believe, and pre-conceive in- right to your soul, especially when it is your own child. I can’t say how many times my wife and I have re-examined our lives and tossed blame everywhere. Believe me this child doesn’t fit any stereotype and always seemed to have a healthy but definite attraction to the opposite sex. So now while we’re still working through all of this, the one thing my wife and I know is that we love our child unconditionally, the way Jesus loves us. We don’t/can’t accept every choice our kids make yet we accept them and affirm their dignity.

This is, perhaps, a poor example, but here it is. My 4-year-old daughter was adopted at birth, and we see her birthmother regularly. She has been shielded from certain aspects of her birthmother’s life, but she knows (and has observed) that she smokes. Olivia knows that this is bad for your health and that we, personally, are against it. But she also knows that we love birthmother in spite of it (and other things) and show her love unconditionally. Now, when we are together Olivia might “remind” birthmother that she should stop smoking, “because I love you and you should be healthy”, but she has learned from example that we don’t shun our family and loved ones for doing stuff they shouldn’t be doing. She also has learned to regularly pray for her “to stop smoking so she can be healthy.” I think and hope that she is learning that we love people and hate sin and pray for God’s guidance for those in our lives and trust Him to work on their hearts while we simply show love.

Kate…love your words…I am also a Lutheran (raised Catholic…flirt with Catholicism these days). 

Simcha and others, thanks for your words.  I guess the hard part is telling your children something you don’t wholeheartedly believe yourself.  They can see through that. My children are like I was: impatiently questioning little creatures.  I clearly remember my mother explaining the facts of life to me when I was ten.  To her credit, she drew pictures and talked about everything, including abortion.  I stopped her mid-sentence and remember asking, “If the baby will have a horrible life, shouldn’t we just abort it?”  She was shocked and asked me where I had heard that.  I had not heard it; I came up with that myself. As I recall, with obvious effort, she collected herself and said, “No, we don’t believe that.  Only God can decide.”  I was not satisfied, and pondered it for quite some time.  How I wish back then she had dug up the whole teaching, and the evidence to show me families where the 14th one went on to do amazing things, or adopted children who lead fruitful lives.  I needed deeper explanations, evidence.  My faith took a terrible, twenty year blow.  I can tell my own children will also need these deeper explanations.  I cannot provide them for the issue of homosexuality, as the current explanations do not satisfy ME to this day.

I guess what I am saying, is that it can be deadly to certain children to say to them, “We don’t fully understand why we have to be obedient to this Church rule, but we accept it because it comes from the Church.”  For some kids, it plants the seeds of dissent and distrust and disrespect for the whole of Church teaching.  We teach them to question, and use their reason and look for evidence, then for certain teachings we tell them to put that aside.

@Kate:  excellent points, and something I think that this generation of Catholics is extremely privileged to be witnessing more and more often.

momofthree,
I understand your point, but teaching them the reasons why the Church’s teaching is trustworthy can be effective too, assuming we really believe it. 

That said, I honestly cannot understand why anyone cannot understand the Church’s teaching on homosexuality.  The purpose of sex is inscribed into our very bodies, and it is pretty obvious.  It is obvious that certain parts are made to fit together, and others aren’t.

Contraception is at the root of all of it.  Once the procreative factor is removed and it is accepted that sex can be just for pleasure, pretty much anything goes.

@momofthree:  I agree that it might be deadly (although in your case it wasn’t precisely *deadly* - not permanently harmful to your faith,that is) to take that approach—but for others, it might be the perfect approach.  The hard part is that it’s not anywhere near possible for parents to discern which child is which until the children are grown (if then).  My own parents will probably be happy to hear that I’m realizing more and more that it’s impossible to give each child exactly what he needs when he needs it, and it’s not helpful to tell ourselves, “If only mom had said X instead of Y on that fateful Tuesday three decades ago, everything could have been different for me.” 

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It’s also a mistake (one that I’ve fallen into many times) to assume that your child needs the same response that WE needed as children.  I think most parents compensate for their own parents’ mistakes, and thereby make entirely new and exciting mistakes!  And so on through the generations.

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I think that, for some kids, it could very well be extremely valuable to hear parents say, “Look, this is what the Church teaches, and I’m still working through exactly what that means myself” and to keep the kid updated as you do work through it (assuming that’s actually your intention).  As Joseph Mazzara, our #2 commenter, said above, it’s a good reminder to try out this idea:  “The Church, after millennia of study and prayer and revelation, is right about 99% of what it teaches.  I, however, have figured out something they never thought of”—and see how that sounds.  Talk about using reason and looking for evidence!

I also want to thank everyone for an extremely fruitful, illuminating, and civil conversation so far!  I was pretty nervous about this post.  You guys are great.

When I said, “I understand your point, but teaching them the reasons why the Church’s teaching is trustworthy can be effective too, assuming we really believe it.”

I meant:  “I understand your point, but teaching them the reasons why the Church’s teaching IN GENERAL is trustworthy can be effective too, assuming we really believe it.”

I was referring to Matthew 16:18-19, the Magisterium, how one reason Jesus founded the Church was so that we could have sure access to the truth, etc.

Posted by JoAnna on Friday, Mar 2, 2012 10:39 AM (EST):
“Cowalker, given that homosexuals only make up about 3-4% of the population, it’s certainly possible.”

I can’t prove that it’s not possible, but it’s really hard for me to believe. Each of my kids had a friend come out while in high school—and it isn’t a large school. I have found out that at least one friend of mine from high school is gay. I had a co-worker who was openly gay. My father’s girlfriend has a daughter who is openly gay. I am not a social butterfly or a big “people” person. I don’t see how my experience can be that different from most Americans’.

At any rate, I think a person who apparently has no gay friends or family members would be the least qualified of persons to speak out publicly on homosexual behavior.

The old double standard—I love you but I hate what you do. I also think you will corrupt my children, so don’t get “too close” to them.
If religion is more important than family, say so. After all, Christ Himself told people to leave their families and follow HIM.

My reply when the kids ask about someone or thing that is different than what we and the Church teach is “They don’t understand what Jesus/God asks of us the way that we do.”  If they ask more or want to talk to the person about it I suggest it’s better to pray that they’ll start to understand better.

Your response to your reader, and responses to the combox posts, are really good, Simcha. You are thoughtful and practical. The reader who reached out to you might be helped by a program about Courage on EWTN. While Courage is for homosexuals who want to live in obedience to Christ, there is also a program for the loved ones of persons with a homosexual orientation called EnCourage. I did an Internet search and found the Courage official link:

  http://couragerc.net/

I hope your readers who need support with this issue check it out and find comfort and help there.

Simcha and commenters,

What a well written and thoughtful article.  As well as the comments.

What a shame that the laity have to pick up the mantle of apostolic teaching when we have a mess in the Archdiocese of Washington in response to the lesbian debacle.

Thank you Simcha and the lay commenters.

Help!  Why was I thrown in the Spam pile?  :(  Can you dig my previous comment out please?

Thank you for this!  I have been struggling lately with how to handle Catholic friends who vocally promote and support gay ‘marriage’ legislation.  Married heterosexual Catholic couples who openly dissent from many Church teachings, or at least post many dissenting things on FB.  Deep breath.  That’s where my struggle lies.  Friends who proclaim with confidence that the Church has no business getting involved in the gay ‘marriage’ debate and should stay out of these matters.  That the definition of marriage in a legal sense shouldn’t be defined by the Catholic Church according to the First Amendment since not everyone shares that belief.  How do we, how should we, respond?  I am at a loss since I have basically been told before (by Catholic friends mind you) that I have no right to defend marriage in the public square.  As my husband put it, the response I get to anything I say is: “Shut up,” She explained.  Are they right?  Should I just shut up and kneel in my pew clutching my rosaries until the second coming?  How do we engage in the public square, and I guess more specifically on social media?
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Sigh.  I might as well of asked for the meaning of life, right?  I’ll go back to my housewife duties now.  Those are SO much easier in comparison with these big questions.

(I really need to pick a unique name, since I post here so often but there are other Jens…) Anyway, my uncle is gay. He’s also my godfather. I’m pretty sure the priest who baptized me knew. So, what does that say about me and my parents? What about the priest!?!

Growing up, they never said anything about him being gay, liking men, etc. They never said anything about gays in general. It just wasn’t discussed. Sometimes he’d bring friends to events, sometimes they were men and sometimes they were women. As a kid, I thought, “uncle has lots of friends!” I never thought “those ladies are his girlfriends and the guys are his buddies” or “the guys are his boyfriends and the ladies are JUST friends.” They were all friends. And my entire family welcomed whomever was in attendance, as was my uncle.

I was about 13 when I figured it out, and I thought “ohhhh, OKAY, he’s GAY” and went about my business. My parents never really officially told my brother or me. One day we were all just talking and someone said something about “uncle’s boyfriend” and that was that.

I’m not a parent yet, but I think the way my parents handled it was a good way. They did not draw attention to it, or give me negative or positive reinforcement about his life. He was just my uncle and that was that. My aunt had a colorful past, prior to her marriage. Drugs, men, etc. Did my parents EVER let us hear about that? No. It’s only now that I’m older do I know about the antics she pulled. We still loved her. I don’t think kids need to hear about anyone’s adult business, gay or straight. It’s not for their ears or their minds. And I was one inquisitive little girl (still am!) so if I didn’t ask many questions, I’m sure most kids don’t. To me, it’s like when you hear a 18 mo old repeat a bad word. You don’t make a big deal out of it, because they don’t know right and wrong yet. Attracting attention is only going to bring you and your kids down a road you might not want to travel just yet.

Once again, thank you thank you, Simcha.

“Second, to remember that feelings are not the same as actions.  If we feel one way, but struggle to act another, that’s not hypocrisy — that’s a great and worthy sacrifice of self, and much harder than doing the right thing when it’s easy.”

I hope it’s not heretical for me to say that this observation has brought me such a feeling of absolution.  I struggle with a certain Church teaching, in my darkest heart I am a hating heretic, yet I have always striven to *do* the right thing according to Church teaching, and I sporadically work at chopping away at that darkness in my heart ... your observation gives me encouragement that it’s not worthless.  Thank you.

First of all, Simcha, thank you for this!  It is always right to love our loved ones!  Always!  Secondly, there’s an old saying I heard when I was a teenager (those many years ago ;-) ).  “Hate the sin but love the sinner.”  We can accept that something is a sin without condemning the person who does it.  That seems to be a problem with society in general, perhaps in all times.  We swing one way or the other.  Either we think we have to accept the sin or we think we have to reject the person.  But honestly, only God can see what is in each of our hearts.  The catechism teaches that a sin is mortal if we know it is, believe it is, and fully intend to commit it.  Yes, I know. There is the natural law written in our hearts; but that law can be obscured by so many things, especially by society, culture, etc.  Yes, sometimes we have a duty to speak out. Other times we do not have that duty and may actually do more harm. Which times are which is a matter for each person and God.  But it is always right to love our neighbor.  It’s one of the two great commandments, right?

I had several close friends in college who were dealing with homosexuality. One I was very close with. I tried my best to be there for him, love him, but he knew where I stood in the way of my faith. I didn’t constantly harp on the topic or push it in his face, but at times we would have discussions on the topic. He would challenge me and sometimes egg me on. Sometimes I chose silence insted of constant affirmation and agreement. Sometimes I talked with him about it. But one day when we were talking about how I felt like a ‘wench’ most of the time with him, he responded. ‘But you’re the only one who cares enough to be honest with me and challenge me.’ Most people had taken the route of open unwavering support (who in real life gets that anyway?) or shunning. Neither really is love! Who are the people who love you the best? The ones you know will be honest with you, will call you on if you’re messing up and stick by you through thick and thin. What it comes down to is that people with homosexual tendencies are actually just like everyone else. They want to be loved, truely, they need God, they are called to be chaste outside the sacrament of marriage. In the church, the rules are actually the same whether you’re gay or straight. We are all called to to the same level of holiness, despite the fact that our paths to that holiness may be radically different.

NB, I’m not sure if you were looking for practical resources, but if you are, I just wanted to offer a couple.  This article by Princeton professor Robert George and others is an excellent natural law argument for marriage and its importance in the public square:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1722155.
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Also, the Ruth Institute (http://www.ruthinstitute.org/) is a non-profit project for the National Organization for Marriage that provides a lot of educational resources on defending marriage, from a very general point of view.  (Read: not “religious” arguments).  You could always “like” some of their stuff on FB :) - why should you have to shut up while your friends get to post things? 
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It’s important to engage the culture, and be able to speak the truth in their language (read: beyond “the Church says x”).  Things are not true because the Church says them; the Church says them because they are true. Good luck!  (Clutching rosaries is not a bad choice either: keep them in your pocket when you go into battle.)

It seems like a good idea to study apologetics so that we are as prepared as possible for those tough conversations. You can also say, “I don’t know, but I’ll get back to you.” And then do.

With the gay issues, I think it’s valuable to point out that straight people who fornicate and contracept are being very sinful too. The ideal is not two people to have magical straight love, it’s for a man and a woman to cooperate in God’s life-making power. Straight people who misuse sex are not only sinning a little, while their homosexual counterparts are sinning a lot. We are all called to chastity, although our particular temptations may be different.

It can be helpful to say, “I completely agree with you,” and then qualify the statement. As in, “I completely agree with you that it’s natural for people to want to marry the person they love. It’s natural to want to give oneself completely to the beloved. That’s exactly why the Church calls all people to love chastely. The only love that is completely self-donating is that which also willing gives it’s fertility, as in is open to children; anything else says one thing and means another. Did you know the Church also calls all people to love others?” I find that a blend of friendly easy-on-the-ears questioning and seeming to not care that much if they come around or not does a lot of good.

Isn’t a teaching you don’t understand the best proof that what you’re living is really obedience to the Church and faith in infallibility, and not just your own ideas and understandings?

I think that it is very hard for us to deny our friends and loved ones their “happiness”. Wanting our loved ones to be happy is a noble thing, but it doesn’t ensure their salvation. We will all suffer in this life, and maybe it could be argued that homosexuals suffer more than most, but we must remember that we are only in this life for a short time. Ideally, we should be constantly looking toward Heaven, and striving to accept the suffering that God allows, trusting in him that he wants only what is good for us.
The definition of love is doing what is good for the other. Condoning sin is never good for the other. We can say, “I think your lifestyle is sinful, but I love you, and I will treat you with compassion and dignity, despite the fact that I disagree with the way you are living your life.” Then, I think, we have done our duty as Christians.

Thank you for this piece, Simcha, and to the reader whose question prompted this column.  My dear sister, who is Protestant, last summer underwent IVF to conceive a child.  It was hard to know how to discuss this with her.  It felt so awkward to tell her that she shouldn’t use that method to try to even have one biological child, while I have so many.  And I know that she, as a non-Catholic, doesn’t even have this issue on her radar screen.  She does feel uncomfortable with the idea of all those embryos she has created though.  Anyway, I just respectfully asked that I not be included on the details of her procedures, etc., but that I would of course love any child(ren) that resulted from her attempts and that I loved her and her husband as well.  I really didn’t know how to handle it.

Its very difficult to cause loved ones pain of any kind in order to be obedient to the church. Even though we recognize God’s ways are above our own, it still just doesn’t seem to compute on an emotional level. It takes ultimate trust in Him, and apparently must be fueled by those supernatural virtues of faith, hope and love because I know I couldn’t have that trust on my own. One thing that helps me is to look at the cross and the pain of Christ. If I were to be consistent, I would suggest he be spared of his pain as well, but then what of God’s way and where would that leave me and everyone else I so deeply care for?

My parents used to say “If God is working in your life, He’s also working in theirs.”  And “Jesus already saved the world, you don’t have to”

Mother Teresa taught that when we die we will be judged on one thing:  LOVE. That’s it.  Not whether it always felt GOOD to love, as Simcha pointed out. Yes, love and compassion for our neighbor stands head and shoulders above everything else.
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My children had to deal with a very sticky situation, when their Aunt, who had lived with several other men previously, became the “other woman”, and then succeeded in marrying the husband of our family friend. (I really liked this couple that she came between, they had a beautiful family with a four-year-old and a baby.) We continued to be close friends with all of the parties, but it weighed heavily upon me. I have to battle my temptation to resent my sister-in-law for what she did.
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I took the opportunity to quietly explain, behind the scenes, what was going on to my children.  I explained to them that “rules” of the church are not the point.  *The WISDOM of the Church protects our, and our neighbor’s dignity*.
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As could have been predicted, my sister-in-law’s marriage is not going well, because of the principles it was founded upon.  My children see that and understand why.  Now there are five children involved, six, including the child from the ex wife who remarried and divorced again.
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It is important that we clarify for our children that marriage is for self donation, not just personal fulfillment.  Children need TWO, stable, self sacrificing parents: a father and a mother.  The father brings to the equation something different than the mother, and vise versa. Anything less than this is SAD.
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Yes, love the sinner, hate the sin. Take EVERY opportunity to teach your children to distinguish the difference, and how to lovingly (not self righteously) pray for all those wounded people on the battle field of life that we can help pick up.  We won’t always succeed,(the world is an alluring place, and the devil is a smooth liar.) It might just end up being our OWN child, that we need to sorrowfully pick up.

Simcha,

Thank you for your thoughtful post.  All faith traditions are human and fallible institutions.  Just because we may disgaree with what religious authorities teach, this does not mean that we are sinful or have separarted ourselves from God.  God gave us intelligience to use.  Blind submission/obedience to human institutions is not why God gave us intelligence.  Follow your conscience.  God is love and God’s love is manifest whenever two people truly love people—this is strue whether that love is between stright people or gay people.

To Chuck Anziulewicz,
Life on this earth is so short, and real love is so huge and all-encompassing.
We are all called to follow Jesus, and
Jesus was never protected from job discrimination,
He never adopted children,
He didn’t serve in the military,
He taught out in the streets,
He wasn’t a Boy Scout,
He was a victim of the ultimate hate crime,
He never married, but had many wonderful friends
who loved him so much they were willing to die for his cause.
He was lonely sometimes, and maybe even miserable sometimes,
but his eyes were always on the final goal.

It’s a difficult road, but we’re all on it together.

The natural law may be written in our hearts, but for some it is not as clear as others.

Several studies have shown that gay people—especially gay men—are more “intersexed” than fully male. To summarize, they have the bodies of men, but their brains are similar to those of women. Like women, they are attracted to men. Lesbian brains are somewhere in between male and female.

Theology of the Body deals with the male and the female. The Church has not fully developed its theology on the intersexed.

My point is that we cannot judge whether one is subjectively committing mortal sin.

IMHO, it would be far better for someone with this issue to pursue a relationship with someone they were attracted to than to enter into an invalid marriage with an innocent party in an attempt to hide it.

“My point is that we cannot judge whether one is subjectively committing mortal sin.”

True, but we must judge whether a certain action is objectively grave matter.

“IMHO, it would be far better for someone with this issue to pursue a relationship with someone they were attracted to than to enter into an invalid marriage with an innocent party in an attempt to hide it.”

Neither of the options would be good.  The choice of a Christian with disordered desires is to carry their particular cross and be celibate.

As Steve Gershom, a faithful gay Catholic says, “I have less and less patience with this question: “How can the Church require homosexuals to be celibate? How can she impose such a heavy cross?”

Why do people think that living a good life is supposed to be easy? Readers, whoever you are — gay, straight, married, single, relatively healthy or inflicted with any one of a billion possible debilitating pathologies — you will be asked to carry a cross. It’s going to be hard, and it’s not going to be fair.”

@Jim, you might have a point if people had sex with their brains, but they don’t.  Bodies are not the only things that matter, but they do matter.

You have described my struggle more eloquently than I could.  My brother is gay and I love him fiercely.  His partner is wonderful and someone my entire family cherishes.  I have prayed a lot and have come to the conclusion that in this area I will not have resolution.  I love The Catholic church and I love my brother.  I cannot feel negatively about my brother or his partner.  Thank you for your blog.  It lightened my heart to read it.

Simcha, how long can being respectful of each other’s “weirdness” last?  As another reader pointed out, the homosexual community wants more than tolerance—they want approval and “equality” with true marriage.  I struggle with figuring out how to live harmoniously with people who want my children to accept their grave sin as normal, good, moral, just as valid as anything else, etc.  Sooner or later, it comes down to sin.  How can we have an honest, agreeable relationship within families when some family members genuinely believe the others are living in grave manifest sin, and those other family members know their lives are judged as sinful?  There’s no way to avoid the judging.  We are called to make honest judgments about sin.  We can’t pretend sin isn’t sin.  That doesn’t mean we’re pronouncing judgment on someone’s soul, but that we have made the good and right judgment that certain behavior is inherently sinful and cannot be considered right.  I just don’t see how that kind of dichotomy can exist and the family members still live in harmony.

@Jen 5:17:  well, I don’t think it could possibly work unless both parties desired harmony, which could very well happen between friends or family members.  Don’t forget, a single homosexual person is not “the homosexual community.”  Not all gay people necessarily share the goals of national organizations, any more than I, as a conservative, share the goals of the John Birch Society.

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I have friends who work strenuously for political goals which are the opposite of what I want, and we’ve more or less agreed not to talk about these things, because we want to preserve our friendship so we can enjoy the things we DO have in common. 

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I’m not saying it would be EASY to have harmony when there’s this fundamental disagreement—but obviously it is possible, as several commenters here have described.

We are supossed to be obedient to the church, and that obedience becomes more “true” than ever when it is on something we don’t agree with. At the end you just have to believe that Jesus left Her to guide us so we obbey, and that we are humans that don’t have perfect moral compasses so believeing ourselves wiser than the Church is foolish and dangerous for our souls.

I am loving this stream.  The poster who spoke about the pain of her surrogate friend illustrated another very difficult area of ethics we’re running into headlong in our culture - the world of Artificial Reproductive Technology (ART).  If we had only used our Church and Her wise teachings as a guide, we wouldn’t have gone down the paths of abortion (for ‘unwanted’ children) and ART (for desperately ‘wanted’ children).  Please address this Simcha, although some will hate you because you have ten naturally- conceived children!  However, we need your skillful way with the virtual pen!
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When ART first came on the scene, we opened up the Pandora’s box of ways to make babies, (and baby-making) a commodity.  With medical ethics pushed aside, (or not considered) we now have embryos languishing in freezers and all sorts of dilemmas about parentage, health and parenting.  This field came crashing over us like a tsunami, and now the Catholic church, and others who think deeply about these things, are like voices in the wilderness… 
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Every Hollywood celebrity who presents perfect boy/girls twins at age fifty to their adoring fans makes everyone else think it’s OK to conceive children outside the womb, with Dad at no close proximity.  With Obamacare and the way the Executive branch is mandating that we all pay for anything related to reproduction, (except abstinence of course), we may end up with more and more ‘covered’ ART everywhere.  Help us Jesus!

Thank you to K for the links!  - NB :)

Here’s the million dollar question: Family harmony is important, yes. But some of the “public sinners” we’re talking about aren’t kind, charming and irresistible. They are “in your face” AND they ask favors of you in the next breath. Loving these ones IS tough…but clearly we don’t have to “like” in order to “love”. Is there ever a justifiable reason to “shake the dust” from our sandals, when it comes to protracted bad behavior?  Or do we keep whispering to our kids on the sidelines,smiling,defending our faith meekly and sucking it up cause it’ll make us saints sooner or later?  Sometimes I feel like a sucker and a doormat, and that decades of family dinners with those vocal, proud,unabashed, worldlings is more like a blood sport.  Sometimes I want to say “I want nothing more to do with your family!”.  My husband would reluctantly honor my decision because he’s the first to say that they are some of the most messed up jerks and horrible examples for our children that he’s ever met, but he loves them…

@Simcha: But our brains are as much a part of our bodies as our reproductive organs.

I am not Catholic—I am actually a Latter Day Saint, or Mormon, but I think any faithful person can relate to the core issue here as I see it. It seems that the issue is that our human minds cannot always comprehend the logic behind the Gospel. The reason we are supposed to obey is because we believe that the teachings coming from the Church (Catholic in your case, LDS in mine) are really the Word of God, and we won’t always understand. It strikes me as well that dissent could be defined as any actions that are in opposition to the Gospel. If we use that definition, then all of us are in dissent, right, because we all have mortal struggle and sin, often despite the fact that we know better.

Trying to Love,

Growing up we barely saw my extended family (aunts and cousins) because they held values that were very different from our family.  This was a conscience decision by my parents.  When I was younger I didn’t understand but now I don’t regret at all not being close to my cousins.  They lead lives very different from my husband and I.  It left room in our lives to be friends with other families in our faith community who shared our values (ie Catholic ones).  Sometimes it isn’t always a bad thing just to see family at Christmas for an hour if maintaining a civil relationships is not possible (believe me my parents and I have tried but it wasn’t happening).  I’m not saying one shouldn’t try but after you’ve tried and you find it’s negatively affecting your family in some way, it may be OK to limit how often and under what circumstances you socialize with them.

Thanks for this.  My mother and my brother are both, so obviously I very much empathize with with your reader. 

What’s your take on attending a gay commitment ceremony/wedding/whatever?  My brother is single, but I struggle with what I’m supposed to do if he ever finds a partner and decides to make it official.  I know if I refused to go it would wound him deeply and possibly irreparably damage our relationships, and it would certainly harden his heart even more towards God and the Church(since that’s who he would blame).  Is attending like publicly approving of it??

I also struggle with the death penalty issue, like another commenter.  Especially when it comes to people who rape and murder little children, I just have a really hard time with it.

Wow!  Thank you Simcha and to all who commented.  This has given me a lot to think about and to pray over.

My prayers are with all of you who have written out of love for your relatives, friends and our Holy Catholic Church.  Trust the Lord… He will show you the way.

Jim -

The reason the Theology of the Body deals with Male and Female and not “intersexed” persons is because there is no such thing. 

“Male and Female, he created them.” (Genesis chapter 1)

One of the most damaging aspects of the Gay Rights movement is that it leaves no room for straight “effeminate” men or “tom boy” girls. 

“You like Theatre? You like classical music and dancing, too? You don’t play sports? Well, you’re here, you’re queer, get used to it!  Stop being homophobic about yourself!”

You have no idea how many times others have tried to force me to “come out”.  It’s worse than being at a Pentecostal church where someone’s praying over you and pushing on your head so that you’ll be “slain in the Spirit” and start babbling in tongues - cause if you don’t do it, they won’t go away.

Women love you, but just “as a friend”, and men don’t seem to leave you alone.  One can start to wonder…“What’s wrong with me?  Everybody tells me I should just be gay and stop hating myself.”

I finally found a woman who really gets me.  She played professional football.

She experienced similar coercion to “come out” as I did.  Girls on the team all tried to get her to play for the other side, and I’m not talking about football.  Some of them got downright angry, almost violent when she refused their advances.  She’s not an anorexic waif who looks like a 10-year-old boy, so many men would not consider her attractive.  One can start to wonder…

We’re made either Male or Female.  The problem isn’t with our brains, the problem is that society stereotypes and tries to force you into the “appropriate” box because it’s easier for them and it makes you easer to market to.  The Gay Rights Agenda hasn’t made “male or female”, “Gay or Straight” clearer - it’s made it more confusing because the “Straight” stereotype is narrower than it ever has been before.

The reason the Theology of the Body deals with Male and Female and not “intersexed” persons is because there is no such thing. 

“Male and Female, he created them.” (Genesis chapter 1)

One of the most damaging aspects of the Gay Rights movement is that it leaves no room for straight “effeminate” men or “tom boy” girls. 

“You like Theatre? You like classical music and dancing, too? You don’t play sports? Well, you’re here, you’re queer, get used to it!  Stop being homophobic about yourself!”

You have no idea how many times others have tried to force me to “come out”.  It’s worse than being at a Pentecostal church where someone’s praying over you and pushing on your head so that you’ll be “slain in the Spirit” and start babbling in tongues - cause if you don’t do it, they won’t go away.

Women love you, but just “as a friend”, and men don’t seem to leave you alone.  One can start to wonder…“What’s wrong with me?  Everybody tells me I should just be gay and stop hating myself.”

I finally found a woman who really gets me.  She played professional football.

She experienced similar coercion to “come out” as I did.  Girls on the team all tried to get her to play for the other side, and I’m not talking about football.  Some of them got downright angry, almost violent when she refused their advances.  She’s not an anorexic waif who looks like a 10-year-old boy, so many men would not consider her attractive.  One can start to wonder…

We’re made either Male or Female.  The problem isn’t with our brains, the problem is that society stereotypes and tries to force you into the “appropriate” box because it’s easier for them and it makes you easer to market to.  The Gay Rights Agenda hasn’t made “male or female”, “Gay or Straight” clearer - it’s made it more confusing because the “Straight” stereotype is narrower than it ever has been before.

@Jim

The reason that ToB deals with Male and Female alone with no regard for the “intersexed” is simply that there is no such thing.

In Genesis chapter 1, God created them “male and female” and not everything in between.  It’s not a sliding scale, though our definition of what “male and female” means has changed and is rapidly changing.

One of the most damaging thing the Gay Rights movement has done is that is has warped these definitions, and they have begun to blur.  Look at the Alphabet Soup now compared with 20 years ago.  It used to just be LBG, then it became LBGT, then LBGTQBDSM…All the while the definition of “Straight” became more and more narrow.  There is no more room for a Straight but Sensitive man or a girl who’s just a little bit Tom Boy.

I know because the pressure got worse in my life as the Gay movement got stronger.

“You like Theatre? You like classical music and dancing, too? You don’t play sports? Well, you’re here, you’re queer, get used to it!  Stop being homophobic about yourself!”

You have no idea how many times others have tried to force me to “come out”.  It’s worse than being at a Pentecostal church where someone’s praying over you and pushing on your head so that you’ll be “slain in the Spirit” and start babbling in tongues - cause if you don’t do it, they won’t go away.

Women love you, but “just as a friend”, Gay men start hitting on you more and more aggressively…One can start to wonder when everybody is telling you “you’re gay and just hating yourself”.

I used to wonder a lot more until I found a woman who got me.  She used to play professional football.

She experienced similar coercion to “come out” as I did.  Girls on the team all tried to get her to play for the other side, and I’m not talking about football.  Some of them got downright angry, almost violent when she refused their advances.  She’s not an anorexic waif who looks like a 10-year-old boy, so many men would not consider her attractive.  One can start to wonder…

The point is that we are created in God’s image either male OR female.  The problem isn’t with our brains, it’s with our society’s tendency to stereotype and stuff you into a box, whether you like it or not, because it’s more convenient for THEM.  I blame the marketing researchers.  And sin.

@Jim

If either of my comments get moderated, you’ll have a much better (and verbose) response.

God created us each to be male or female in His image.  Just because society has blurred those lines doesn’t mean it has changed reality.

One of the most damaging aspects of the Gay Rights movement is that it leaves no room for straight “effeminate” men or “tom boy” girls.  “You like Theatre? You like classical music and dancing, too? You don’t play sports? Well, you’re here, you’re queer, get used to it!  Stop being homophobic about yourself!”  Fortunately, I found a woman who understands me - she happens to be a professional football player.  She suffers the same intolerance.  If you’re straight but don’t fit the mould, the Gay crowd tries to claim you (by force if necessary).

When you have a complex situation like this, it’s good to raise onesself up, sit at the feet of the Father, and ask him what to do.  His answer is, “What have I taught you; what would Jesus do?  He is the way, the truth and the life.”

Many people think that God created us to be happy in this world. That’s not true, and is the mantra of the devil.  God’s number one purpose is to get us to heaven, which always requires our being obedient to his holy will.  When our will is counter to his will, suffering is sure to follow. But, suffering is redemptive, for if he didn’t spare his only begotten Son, what makes us think that we will be without suffering for being obedient to his will?

Therefore, it appears that the whole situation is a test from God to see whether or not we love him.  “If you love me, keep my Commandments.”

It is a gift to know you are out of line with church teaching. You have what is necessary at this point to head straight to the Sacrament of Penance with a firm resolution to change and get back into a state of grace. From this point, you can plumb the depths of our faith and grown in knowledge. From this point, you can evangelize and help your fellow brothers and sisters that need an explanation about why their behavior or lifestyle is doing damage. After all, eternal life is worth a little effort.

What a great post and comment thread. I think the Church has more of a right to define marriage than the government. If it weren’t for ‘property rights’ and ‘custody’ the state would have no interest at all. Thank God for Simcha, Thank God for The Laity, Thank God for our Separated Brethren, Thank God for The Hierarchy, Thank God For Our Church and its teachings, and Thank God for forgiveness…!!!

God be glorified!

Just imagine! We will all be with Jesus & Mary forever in Heaven! We just have to keep on fighting the good fight with love and obedience (I’m not very good at the latter!).

See you all in Heaven one day!

It is really simple; the wages of sin is death ... If you love your sister, tell her the truth in charity and love. If you love someone you want the best for them .... Nothing is better than eternity in heaven. The other choice is to ‘feel good’ about choices that result in eternity in hell. The truth will set you free; love the sinner as Jesus did but hate the sin.

How many times did Jesus say ‘go but sin no more’? Jesus is the judge; not our good feelings or our sick social mores .... The ten commandments are just that, commandments, not great ideas or suggestions. Nice, kind, happy people choose hell all the time. I want heaven for me, you, and your sister. That is called zeal for souls; something that is lacking in the Church today.  Be wary of the ‘pastoral’ road to hell.

I will pray for your sister.

I’ve written about the subject of the Church teachings and marriage on my own blog before, and about the reason I am skeptical— Canon Law changes, and has even changed drastically in my own lifetime.

My grandfather’s sister married a non-Catholic in the 1940’s. She was cast out of both the Church and the family. My great-grandfather refused to look at his daughter on her wedding day, and when the bride and groom tried to talk to him after the ceremony, he hid in the hen house and wouldn’t come out. She isn’t smiling in her wedding photos, and her eyes are swollen with tears.

According to the 1917 Code of Canon Law, Canon 2319 said,

“Catholics are under an excommunication latae sententiae reserved to the Ordinary: (1) who contract marriage before a non-Catholic minister contrary to canon 1063, 51, 1; (2) who contract marriage with an explicit or implicit agreement that all children or any child be educated outside the Catholic Church; (3) who knowingly presume to present their children to non-Catholic ministers to be baptized; (4) who, being parents or taking their place, knowingly present their children to be educated or trained in a non-Catholic religion.”

Fast forward to 1991. I “contracted marriage” with an explicit understanding with my husband that our subsequent children (if he could in fact convince me to go through with having any) would be raised in his religion (Buddhist), and that he, as the oldest son, would be the keeper of his family “butsudan” altar someday.

In another age, this would have gotten me excommunicated.

But in October 1970, Pope Paul VI published the Apostalic Letter Matrimonia Mixta, in which he said,

“The penalties decreed by canon 2319 of the Code of Canon Law are all abrogated. For those who have already incurred them the effects of those penalties cease, without prejudice to the obligations mentioned in number 4 of these norms.”

Just like that—poof! Excommunication revoked! Mixed marriages are still not considered ideal, but those specific violations are no longer excommunicable offenses.

Too late for my great-aunt, though.

So whenever anyone argues about irrevocable church teachings to me, my eyes tend to glaze over. They think they’re quoting words carved in stone, but they’re actually quoting something that changes.

Jesus told us to LOVE, but, He never said that we have to LIKE. The love that He is talking about is not the wishy-washy stuff that is part of our lives. You are nice to me, I “love” you, hurt my feelings, I “hate” you. First of all, these women are not married, nor are they “gay” and we should NEVER ever use that wonderful word to cover up such a filthy death-style that goes against God and His plan to bring children into this world. Now, which is the most important: our feelings or the salvation of ourselves and our brothers and sisters? If this woman was to see her sister and her sister’s sex partner and those two victims (the children) in a very dangerous situation (house on fire, etc.), wouldn’t she do her very best to save them from harm? Well, the four of them, and also her, if she condones this horrible sin, are in grave danger of losing their souls and spending eternity in hell. Those children are in grave danger, I bet that they are boys, if not, then they are really in grave danger) and they will be raised without receiving the love of a FATHER or mother and will very confused later in life. True love is very hard as us parents know when we have to punish our children in order to protect them and God does the very same thing to us because He wants us to spend eternity in Heaven with Him.  Love the sinner but hate the sin. Heck we even have to love Obama and Hitler and the most difficult one of all, ourselves.  Pray and love and ask our Blessed Mother and her earthly spouse, St. Joseph to intercede to the Holy Spirit for the salvation of all that are involved and as Jesus told us: Repent and sin no more.  +JMJ+

“But our brains are as much a part of our bodies as our reproductive organs”

.

Right, I understand.  But you seem to be implying that reproductive organs are inconsequential in sexual intercourse, as long as it’s male brain + female brain, and that simply isn’t so.  I’m quickly getting out of my depth here, but I do know that our bodies, in their function and design, express transcendental truths that can’t be ignored.

Simcha,

Yes, the greatest commandment is love. But that does not excuse us from breaking the ten commandments. Jesus said ‘if you love me, you will obey my commands’

WRONG; we do not all dissent from the Church. If so then we should not receive communion which is the external sign that we hold to be true ‘all that the Church holds and teaches.’ Saint Thomas Aquinas taught that if we believe all but one thing the Church teaches, we are not Catholic, we just happen to believes all but one thing the Church teaches.

In other words, our faith is not a cafeteria .... That is what the thousands of Protestant religions are for ... Pick and choose the meal that’s feels best.

I agree with this, but I have a 17 year old son who disagrees w/ the Church in this issue (and only this issue, really).  If I were to show him this article, I’m guessing that he would bring up Church history, and times during which the Church and Popes were doing things which they should not have done at times in history, as proof that the Church can be wrong.  He will point out evils done in the name of God.  And so, this is a bigger question, I guess, about the concept of infallibility and how to address that when there were wrong things happening (and which he would use to show that this will, someday, be changed in the eyes of the Church).  Any resources to discuss this (infallibility or the sin of homosexuality) with a well-educated, philosophical Christian teen would be greatly appreciated.  Some of the stuff which I’ve read has been too simplistic, and I am looking for more depth.

Anyone who believes it is “kind” to admonish people for how they believe they are made must never have had to face the choice between loving and accepting your family member with a whole heart, or loving them in a way that lets them know they are always judged.  As the mother of a teenager who believes she is gay, the last thing I will do is say anything to my child that will lead her to believe that I don’t accept her exactly the way she is.  She believes God made her this way because she has felt this difference in herself for as long as she can remember.  I don’t know if she is right or wrong.  But as a mother, it really doesn’t matter.  The last thing I am going to do is tell her that I believe she is a sinner and that she needs to straighten up and fly right.  Believe me, if she knew how to do that, she would have done it a long time ago. What she needs more than anything else is a mother’s love, not a mother’s judgment.  She already knows the church teaches that it is a sin.  She will be facing that throughout her whole life from the multitudes of people who will believe she is a unrepentant sinner who also believe it their place to tell her so.  I won’t join in that throng. I will simply love her.  My conscience requires that I do nothing less.

I was a boy, well, younger than high school, and we were far from home visiting friends of my mother.  My Mom’s friend wanted a private conversation with her, and in the car ride back to where we were staying, my Mom was kind enough to share the jist of their conversation.

The other woman had a granddaughter who conceived out of wedlock. She was concerned about upholding the church teaching that sex outside of marriage is immoral, yet also naturally drawn to love her granddaughter and great grandchild. She had asked my Mom for advice.

My Mom took this opportunity to remind us of the importance of loving people. Simcha is right: the greatest commandment is to love God and neighbor, and we know that we do not actually love God if we refuse to love the neighbor we see before us.

In a society that is increasingly hostile to different people, we need to live in a way that shows God’s love even while not validating the sinfulness around us. Thank you for a current and difficult application of this basic, essential Church teaching.

I, too, consider myself a faithful Catholic.  I, too, have had some issues from time to time and, through study, have discoverd the reasons for the Church’s teachings.  This one is very personal to me.  My daughter came out to me almost 30 years ago.  I was so distraught I couldn’t stand it and I found no Catholic support until, one day, I went to talk to my pastor.  He asked if I’d like to talk with someone in a similar situation and, of course, I said yes.  He had a woman call me (a woman I had known for quite a while).  She told me about her sister, and the way she talked about how she was able to love her sister while not “approving” of her lifestyle gave me such hope!  I was then directed to Courage and EnCourage and, eventually, formed an EnCourage group at our church.  My daughter was “married” for a while and she and her partner had twins 10 years ago (my daughter’s eggs, sperm donation, carried by her partner).  They have been apart for several years but manage to share the children very well.  I love those grandchildren just as much as I love my son’s 7 children.  They are all precious.  My daughter and I have a great relationship now; but she knows how I feel about her choice of lifestyle (the “lifestyle” IS a choice, even if the orientation is not).  I urge you to check out couragerc.net.  Jesus’ Church is merciful if you just give Her a chance.

I wish nobody would put the word “marriage” in quotation marks when discussing same-sex marriage.  It’s ungracious, like referring to religious non-Catholics as following a “religion” (in quotation marks).  No matter what the objections to same-sex unions, and no matter how cogent they may or may not be, more respect is due to the honest beliefs of the people who are marrying.

Verda - I didn’t see your comment and wasn’t particularly speaking to you!  Your language was perfectly gracious and kind.  But perhaps you will agree upon reflection that “..” is harmful to the discussion and the dignity of the people involved.

Hate the sin, love the person. Respect is the answer to handle situations between individuals.  If a person believes that they are right; it is very hard to change their mind.  Prayer is very powerful, so pray that God will guide guide you in your decision process without compromising the truth.

Thank you- this issue is relevant to me in so many ways- as described above and also dealing with artificial means of conception (ivf, etc) with family members. The idea of ‘hating the sin, not the sinner’ is so easily misunderstood and difficult and then, how do you support the person without supporting their decision(s) that is so integral to their being? Thank you thank you thank you.

The main problem here is that many people believe that same-sex attraction is something you are born with and can’t change. There is no scientific evidence for this belief and massive evidence that same-sex attraction is a psycho-sexual developmental disorder starting in early childhood. It is preventable and treatable, and true love requires we speak the truth with love. It is true that many people with SSA say they have always felt different, this is because feeling different than one’s same-sex parent and/or peers is a primary causative factor for sexual attraction to the same-sex—a reparative drive. They are trying to get what they didn’t get in early childhood. Unfortunately, SSA is not the only problem faced by these persons. They are far more likely to have other psychological disorders and substance abuse problem. Those closest to them know that they are often (but not always) troubled people. The Church has failed by not making help easily available. Change is difficult and some who try will fail because they have other problems—such as sexual addiction—which complicate the healing process.

Here’s what I think about admonishing people who are sinning, specifically that idea that you should go out of your way, bringing it up to someone to “let the sinner know about it to save his soul”:

Don’t. 

Unless you are in a very distinct relationship with them that involves a recognizable position of spiritual authority, I don’t think that the injunction to “speak the truth” is stronger than the “love” part.

If we are living *our* lives properly, people will see our witness as something that speaks to them.  It’s not like the Church’s teachings are a secret. Outside of our families, I think the best witness is silent witness that focuses on our own lives.

But, for G-d’s sake, be ready to explain Church teaching if asked about it by someone who is having a hard time reconciling their stereotyped views of Catholics with the kind, loving person they see in you.

I love Simcha, but this mawkish, sentimental acceptance of the perversion of homosexuality is all part of the acceptance of contraception, the most costly affliction of our time. Would you sympathize with a close relative or friend who is an alcoholic who kills someone while driving intoxicated? The beautiful teachings of the Church are a sure guide to a happy life.

This was a lot to read & I did not read it all. I have 2 nephews who are gay. I do not treat them or their partners any different than my married heterosexual nephews. They are human beings and I still believe that it has something to do with the brain, otherwise, the Church would not say they could be cured with psycho help. They were born that way, just as someone was born without a finger or with a physical ailment or with retardation. My nephew did ask me about how I felt about marriage and I did say I felt it was between man and woman. His mother said the same. He does not hold this against us….but I must say that back in the 80’s when I was working for Hospice there were families who disowned their gay sons & when some got aides, they had no one to turn to and one of our nurses [an ex-nun] quit Hospice and along with her husband bought an old motel in the country, called it “Our Lady of Peace”, went to the gay community and said they would take care of them. Unfortunately some in the community complained and eventually after a couple of years they had to close down. Today much more is being done for them by the health community. Jesus taught us to love and unfortunately so many very religious people feel they always have to cut these people down. I am beginning to dislike the expression “I love them but hate their lifestyle”. Leave them alone, if they want to change they will.  If I were Katherine above, I would go to my brother’s wedding because I love him, & ‘not go’ because I disapprove of his marriage to another man…. totally separate. Only God knows what is in all of their hearts.  We have chased them away from our Church. Both my nephews are attorneys, one teaches law at a nearby university and are not substance abuse people. They are very family oriented, are loved by all their nieces and nephews and are very good to their Catholic parents. Because of the Catholic attitude toward them the rest of the family [sans the parents] does not attend church. Maybe if our Church did more for them, rather than being critical they would stay ‘in the Church’

Simcha said, “My own parents will probably be happy to hear that I’m realizing more and more that it’s impossible to give each child exactly what he needs when he needs it, and it’s not helpful to tell ourselves, “If only mom had said X instead of Y on that fateful Tuesday three decades ago, everything could have been different for me.”

Are you a mind reader?  I just had this very conversation to my mother and she said just about what you did!  I guess I needed to hear it twice!

Wow; so many resonses.  For me, it is easy, IAt is the same, to me, as if someone you love is in a “relationsship” before marriage.  They are in mortal sin, and we, who love them, HAVE to tell them, lovingly, chartiably, the TRUTH.  If we do not, then WE are in discent.  Still love them, but let them know WHAT THEY ARE DOING is WRONG.  Same with the reader; she is doing what God’s desires, for her to love THEM, but she MUST hate the sin, which means to talk to her sister and let her know WHY it is wrgon, the acts they are doing.  The two little ones I feel for: tow mommies?  very sad.  I do not think they should have been allowed to adopt…but that is another question, isn’t it?  I hope this was helpful.  Her priest should have told her all this, to begin with. Maybe he did, but she chose not to accept what he said, I do not know.  Black and white answers are the best, not the easiest, but the best.

Mother…I have no teen resource for you, but YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING!  I would point you towards Leila Miller’s blog, Little Catholic Bubble. Email her and she could possibly connect her with one of her grown children (18 and 20 I think).

I highly recommend this devotional book for women:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Womans-Bible-ebook/dp/B000JQV6JE?SubscriptionId=15HRV3AZSMPK0GXTY102&tag=amznf-us-tbsearchsea-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B000JQV6JE

Download it free on Kindle!

If some one in your family believes that incest is the best for him and does not think that church teaching is right, what will be your reaction ?  WE have to clarify that we first of all believe in God and the teachings of the Church. We are supposed to obey the Church. We should not act according to our desires, fancies, attractions etc if they are not in accordance of Church teachings. If one person says that he does not believe in fidelity to his wife in sexual matters can we say that “Let him have his way as he believes like that ” ? So let us apply same norms and rules and kindness and dealing with heterosexuals and the so called homosexuals.

“All creation is groaning in pain”...We all suffer with different crosses.  Sexual morality is difficult for almost everyone.  Because this challenges us, or we meet someone with the same challenging temptation, does not give us a free pass to simply act on our attractions.  Nor does it give us a free pass to create life in a petri dish and discard unwanted embryos, because our parts don’t function correctly and we crave a family.  This is both undignified AND evil. Some people are sexually attracted to children—other people’s wives/husbands. You name it. What then?  Sex is not a “right”.  This life is NOT about self fulfillment, and getting our hearts desire.(*impossible* goal for EVERYONE) Today’s gospel tells us “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”. Quite a tall order.  Why languish in purgatory or worse, because we put our own pleasure and will above all else.  This is idolatry.

Okay, thanks for a great conversation, everyone!  I’ve released all the comments that got stranded in moderation, and I’m going to close comments now, because I think we’re getting pretty far afield of the actual focus of the post.