Ooh, I love Aunt Simone and her partner Adrienne, and the cat milk soap.
“Here comes everybody.”

Oh man, that link to the article about what the pope said about condoms is so completely distorted it’s laughable (if I could laugh about it). I just hope no one reads that and actually thinks that it is true!

You are so funny!  And so right!!

Well, I remember that whole fiasco concerning condoms (poor Pope Benedict; I imagine he very much regretted how that played out!), but the one about aliens was new to me!  It reminded me of a badly-made movie, where some obscure Biblical text is used as the basis for some weird, life-altering phenomenon.  I particularly enjoyed JR Church’s interpretation of the Vatican guy’s statement. :P
Thanks for the post, Simcha; I’ll have to remember to follow those steps the next time someone tells me something that I haven’t heard before. :)

So, when someone blithely comments that “The Vatican said that shirt collars cannot be more than three fingers below the collar bone or else they’re immodest” may not be correct?  Or when someone says that “The Vatican said that no one should ever wear/must always wear a chapel veil” they may not be correct? 
I’m shocked, SHOCKED!  I tell you!

So I can go back to taking my yoga class at the Y with a bunch of middle aged men and women and not worry that when I do a back bend I’m worshiping some type of Hindu god!  Thanks:)

But the Vatican says women must always wear skirts…

And by Vatican, I mean homeless Bob.

You may now proceed to the first step.

Where it gets really hairy is when, for instance, you have two groups of people looking at the EXACT SAME official CDF document——and getting two totally opposite interpretations!  Both groups can back it up with “The Vatican says”, but sometimes, it’s really hard to reach a firm conclusion on what the Vatican MEANS….

The term “fraternal correction”  always makes me want to scream.  It’s the “Catholic”  excuse for insulting someone.  Sometimes in their haste to correct the rest of mankind that are not following legalistic rules, SOME people can be incredibly rude.  It amazes me what people think they can get away with in the name of “correcting” others.

My experience is that 99% of the time, when a non-Catholic states that “The Vatican said X about Y,” it means “A news article in a secular publication claims that some bishop somewhere said this.”

This is totally off topic but have you ever experienced gossip in the form of prayer.  ” God bless **** whose husband just left her for an attractive blonde, and we especially pray for**** who has a drinking problem”  That always just left me bewildered!

Annie: ditto to that.

The Popes are trying to teach us about modesty, not as a personal attack on anyone, but guidance for the faithful.  Isn’t this interesting?  Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922) and his two successors, Popes Pius XI and Pius XII, have promoted modesty in dress. These are a few words of Pope Benedict XV: “One cannot sufficiently deplore the blindess of so many women of every age and station. Made foolish by a desire to please, they do not see to what degree the indecency of their clothing shocks every honest man and offends God. Most of them would formerly have blushed for such apparel as for a grave fault aginst Christian modesty. Now it does not suffice to exhibit themselves on public thoroughfares; they do not fear to cross the threshold of churches, to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and even to bear the seducing food of shameful passions to the Holy Altar, where one receives the Heavenly Author of Purity.”

Rufino J. Cardinal Santos, Archbishop of Manila, also quotes these standards as “The Church’s Stand concerning Modesty in Dress” in his Pastoral of
December 6, 1959. The feminine loss of the sense of modesty was indicated by Pope Pius XII who said: “Now many girls do not see anything wrong with
following certain shameless styles (fashions) like so many sheep. They would surely blush if they could only guess the impressions they make and
the feelings they evoke (arouse) in those who see them.” (July 17, 1954.)

Merno, how is your comment applicable to the post? I’m confused.

JoAnna,

I believe Merno was commenting on Vatican comment, and interpretation of official Vatican word.

“The typical secular reporter knows as much about the teaching of the Catholic Church as I know about the inner workings of the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator,”

Yes, but you do know that someone has stolen it, right?

I love it when people allude to Marvin the Martian in Catholic media.

merno, That is all well and good but the debate centers around what constitutes modesty.  I’m just sick of people telling others what to do.  I have been on this earth long enough to use my common sense to dress appropriately for different occasions.

Even Our Lady herself comments on what clothes we women wear at Fatima.  She told the children “many fashions would offend Our Lord.”  Are we going to scoff at Mary?  What fashions is she talking about?  What fashions appeared after this time, that weren’t there BEFORE this time (early 1900’s).  Of course none of us want to be told what we are to wear, but I think we should follow some guidelines.  What are they?  I am not saying pants are out definitely but there could be something to it all…we Catholics definitely aren’t Amish or Muslim, but we should dress respectfully.  What is respectful to one is not respectful to another.  One can dress with a low neckline exposing boobs and not think twice, but to someone trying to be courteous and thoughtful and modest, exposed boobs is not a good thing Martha ...  I’m just sayin’ ...

Again, Merno, how are your comments relevant to Simcha’s original article?

Unless you’re quoting the Gospels, “Our Lady Says” is even more problematic than “The Vatican says” as an argument from authority.

“wool felting message board”. Love it.

Must you be so calm and logical, my dear? It’s so dampening on the human tendencies to jump and point and have hysterics.

@JoAnna - This article stems from one last week whereby Simcha slammed Colleen Hammond’s book “Dressing with Dignity” in what I call a most uncharitable way.  It floored me because I like both Simcha and Colleen and was astonished to see this in a Catholic camp where we are all supposed to be striving for the common good and the respect of one another.  I didn’t expect it coming from an EWTN writer.  Nonetheless, I know what Simcha means, many trad Catholics are harsh in their criticism of others (much like Simcha was to Collen).  Simcha challenged Colleen’s comments of “the Vatican gives guidelines for modest dress,” asking Colleen to quote where.  Maybe Colleen didn’t see the question, as she never answered.  But a simple surf of the net will show where on numerous times the popes, saints and Our Lady have spoken out about modest dress and what it consists of, Pope Pius XII even giving clear directives. I will search that one and post it if I remember (not that I don’t have anything else to do today ~wink).  I don’t think we should scoff at the churches teachings, rather, learn from them.  Colleen’s book, in my opinion, uses absolute thinking and “detective” work if you will to find out what IS modesty in dress.  We all have ideas of what WE think, but what does the CHURCH think?  No chuch authorities of late are really speaking out about it as of current, and we all think we know everything.  None of us like being told what to do, we are all human.  But those of us that want to learn how to dress modest, start looking for directives and we learn a few things ...

Okay, Merno, so start your own blog where you can post long, rambling manifestos about your personal views on modesty.

It’s rude, however, to keep dragging the topic into unrelated article comments.

googling ‘wool felting message board’...and demand that they all wear skirts.

c’mon now JoAnna - that was sure quick!  Let’s be charitable on here.  It’s what makes America a great place to live.

“cat milk soap” ROFLM(Socks)O love your turn of the phrase, Simcha!  Wish I knew you in real life to practice zinger-flinging!  God bless.

Merno,

How were my comments uncharitable?

We certainly wouldn’t want anyone telling anyone else what to do.  Everyone should be able to do whatever they want.

JoAnna, you asked me why I was posting Vatican quotes on modesty, so I told you why.  Then you throw it all back in my face and mock me for it.  You tell me to be quiet, go start my own blog and stop being rude!!!!  Now you ask me what is uncharitable about that?  Seriously JoAnna?????  Are you a real person?  Enough, I’m done on here.

I personally think the floor length denim jumper would offend Mary.

Me too Jennifer, “frumpy” sets in.  You should read Colleen’s book, she talks about that too!

The real kicker is that a majority of women who fight for their right to dress as they darn well please, obviously should cover up a bit more;)

Come on!  I’m not the only one who sees a 40 something dressing like she’s a 12 y.o in a size 2…Ugh…

Modesty is a form of respect.  For the men, our brothers in the Faith who struggle with their very visual sexual desires, and for the women, who struggle against the current which visually feeds those sexual desires….

And, for the records, I only wear skirts to Mass:)  But I know that I don’t show off whatever’s not for sale…And none of its for sale!  Heheheh:)

Great post Simcha.

Merno, the thing is, a pastoral letter or directive to a certain group of people at a certain time, even coming from the Pope, is not binding on all Catholics for all times. For universally applicable teachings, go to the Catechism. Read what it says on modesty, and try to apply it to your own circumstances. Consider if your local bishops or trusted priests have anything to say about the matter. What is particularly frustrating, and draws Ms. Hammond a lot of well-deserved criticism, is her presentation of pastoral directives as binding, eternal, and universal mandates. It is either a disingenuous distortion or serious ignorance of how the Church actually teaches Her children.

Merno… the real question is why you are posting quotes that say modesty is important. I don’t think anyone here is disagreeing with that nor has Simcha in any of her posts. Preaching to the choir

The Vatican can be (and has been) quoted ad nauseum and you still won’t find anything specific on modest fashions.  And Our Lady of Fatima?  “Many fashions would offend Our Lord?”  Um, heck yeah.  Many fashions offend me and I’m nobody.  That still isn’t specific.  And since we are left to flounder our way through the mystery of what is modest, it becomes more of a matter of intention.  Am I intending to attract immodest attention in how I dress?  What am I hoping to gain by dressing immodestly?  By dressing attractively?  By wearing long skirts? By wearing pants? By hiding my fat rolls?  I would not be an object of desire in anything displaying said fat rolls, so is it then immodest to make myself more attractive by artfully disguising them?  A guide to dressing is susceptible to the same criticism as any statement that tries to be definitive.  I don’t mean to offend the author, but I find the idea irritating.

Margaret, I think merno was a little long-winded in her explanation posted on modesty.  But I think it stems from last week’s post by Simcha that created quite a stir.  Simcha went to Colleen Hammond’s link and challenged Colleen to show her where the Vatican made a statement on modesty (as though there are no statements and Colleen was just making it up).  So merno is clarifying that statements on modesty of dress “really do exist” from the Vatican, whereas other statements of “the Vatican said so” oftentimes are a farce as Simcha so well points out.

I think it would be good for a Pope to make a directive on dress because things are out of hand concerning modesty today.  I truly believe many people simply do not know, as “innocent” as they may be.  When I went to mass last Sunday a 20 something girl sat in front of me and my 3 young boys.  She wore a low backed see-through blouse where you could see “the backside of her boobs” bra-straps and all.  I was embarrassed and my children were scandalized. You see, people don’t even know how to dress in church, let alone out in the world ... not fingerpointing, but just saying “can we get some help in this department?”

The Pope is the pope of the UNIVERSAL Church, not the Suburban USA church.  What’s modest in one country might be immodest in another—in some parts of the world, it’s the norm for women to go topless because breasts aren’t considered sex symbols—just baby-feeders.

So the pope cannot issue a “universal fashion statement” more specific than what’s in the catechism.  If you’re concerned with fashions in your parish, perhaps you should talk to your pastor—he’s the one in charge there.

Since Merno specifically mentioned “Dressing With Dignity”:
Why does this book receive sacred tome treatment among some Catholics? It’s not a well-written book. It’s not a well-cited book (although the 2nd edition is apparently better in that regard than the first). Exclamation points are used to the point of being obnoxious. From the first page it reads more like a fashion converstion story than an objective discussion of modesty.

I am NOT criticizing the importance of modesty in wardrobe or judging Mrs Hammond, her intentions, or the state of her soul - only her book.

**Note my opinions may not reflect the views National Catholic Reporter, EWTN, or Simcha Fischer.

@ Sandy:

Why is it a ‘challenge’ to ask Mrs Hammond to provide an original source?

Oh Simcha, I love your columns.  I wish and hope one day I can welcome your whole family to visit ours (if you ever road trip to DC), if only to have read in print the slam using Marvin Martian’s favorite weapon of choice.

I meant, of course, National Catholic Register in my first post. Big oops.

I’ve had a liturgist remind me after daily Mass that the Allelujah is to sung before the gospel, not spoken. I happened to be lector, sorry proclaimer, that day and I don’t sing too well so I spoke it.  SO the agendas aren’t just from the media and the condemnation police.

BTW the Vatican says that women should be wearing denim jumpers for modesty sake. (hee hee)

SCCatholic, it was the tone, the spirit, clearly “show me the proof,” followed by THIS article making fun of those who always say “because the Vatican said so.”  In Colleen’s case, the Vatican HAS said so and Colleen isn’t making this stuff up.  What is good for the goose should be good for the gander.

Wow.  Reading through some of the comments reminds me of how wonderful it is to be a man.  Or - maybe I am just blissfully unaware of the joys I am missing by not being a part of a group of women tearing each other apart verbally.  Kinda reminds me of the school dance scenes:  The girls all huddled together with cupped mouths whispering to each other non-stop.  The boys, on the other side of the room, just sitting there staring like lions seeing gazelles for the first time.  No talking whatsoever, no arguing.  (OK maybe, “Hey.”  “Grunt?” “look at that?”  “Grunt.”)

@Simcha:  LOVE the Marvin the martian reference!  But I remember it as “Uranium Pu 36” (pronounced as in pew).  Anyway, good for unobstructing views of Venus.

Yeah - the Vatican is just a country, right.  So unless they mean there’s been a diplomatic statement, “they” should instead be quoting the Magesterium.  “The Church teaches” works for me, too, because, either it does, or it doesn’t.  Anything else is BS.

While I HATE to bring it up: to suggest that the words of Mary given to us by Canonized saints (Lucia @ Fatima) should be ignored (be they regarding fashion or anything else) is perhaps unwise.  Then again, there are those who think that “worthy of belief” means, “Don’t”.  It don’t.

Simcha—great post.  You talk about people taking a step back to consider when someone says “The Vatican says…” whether the Vatican actually says any such thing, and instantly someone thinks you’re disputing the notion that a) Catholics should dress modestly and b) someone at the Vatican, possibly a Pope, has defined for all Catholics in all times exactly what constitutes modest dress.  It doesn’t seem to occur to people that every Catholic can agree with a) without unquestioningly accepting b).

Matt Watkins, I don’t know how the liturgist approached you, but the rubrics call for the Alleluia to be sung and say that it may be omitted if not sung.  Some pastors find “may be omitted” to be merely a suggestion and prefer their readers to speak the Alleluia if it is not sung; others find the “may be omitted” construction to be more definite, and will ask that the Alleluia be omitted if it is not to be sung.  When in doubt about the preferred practice at your parish—ask the pastor directly. :)  I do know that liturgists, however powerful at a parish, can’t force someone who can’t sing to do so!

Well, not to steer the convo away from modesty, but a few weeks ago, Faith & Family Live had a guest blogger, the editor of Catholic Answers, who posted a piece titled “Is Yoga Sinful” and I was really appalled by some of the responders.  It was the same crowd “The Vatican Says” and some random priest who wrote one article (who’s quoted at length), which admonishes us all that we can’t in good conscience take a yoga class without (how this happens I don’t know) worshiping a Hindu god.  And I’m thinking to myself, good thing Benedict XV hasn’t come out and spoken about my yoga class at my local Y, because it is anything BUT new age.  It’s more like a bunch of rag tag middle age folk stretching and bending and doing something that looks like what we used to do in gym class back in the 70s.  So to me it is so local, it is so what is going on in your neck of the woods.  And the Pope, I think, in his wisdom, leaves us to our own discernment to judge whether it is kosher or not.  I think the clothing debate (right on Deirdre Mundy) is the same - local.

Simcha…..THANK YOU!

“While I HATE to bring it up: to suggest that the words of Mary given to us by Canonized saints (Lucia @ Fatima) should be ignored (be they regarding fashion or anything else) is perhaps unwise.”

I haven’t seen anyone suggest ignoring them, but they aren’t specific, so I think you have to assume it’s probably the thongs for 8 year olds that are offensive and probably not pants.  And I think it’s just common sense to be modest in dress.

Then again, there are those who think that “worthy of belief” means, “Don’t”.  It don’t.”

I don’t believe in any apparitions.  I don’t think the messages are wrong or detrimental, and consider all of the ones the Church has sanctioned to be worth paying attention to, but I don’t believe in the apparitions themselves.  And luckily for me, the Church doesn’t insist that I do.  I appreciate that because I struggle with just having faith.

My husband just informed me that those words supposedly of Our Lady regarding dress were actually said by Jacinta and originated from Jacinta.  They were mistakenly attributed as coming directly from Our Lady.  Simple mistake… but one that keeps getting repeated because people think it makes their case stronger. “Our Lady said…”

The funny thing is, I was just at CVS and saw a woman wearing see-through-skin-tight pants (leggings, I believe).  There was nothing left to the imagination.  It occurred to me that this woman would never experience the hand wringing and vitriol of the dress-like-the-amish crowd.  Instead, these attacks are saved for those who are don’t dress like that and would never dress like that.  Instead of taking the crusade of modesty and mutual respect to the streets, we seem to strive to keep it within our own ranks.  Rather than fight “the good fight” we seem to want to keep the fight within our own pews because well, it’s easier to fight with your brothers and sisters than it is to fight with strangers.  I have a lot of siblings and that was definitely the case growing up.

Simca,
Thank you for the column.  Laughter is good for the body, if not always the soul.
TeaPot562

Having been on the receiving end of some vitriol a couple years back, I discovered a handy standard for “fraternal correction:”  If you want to tell me what to do, first you put your shoulder under my cross for a while.  Then, when you understand what is really going on in my life, I will be happy to listen to what you have to say.  I try to adopt this in the other direction, too.  If I’m just dying to tell you something that You Need To Know, I will keep my mouth shut until I have had the opportunity to bear some of your burden for a while.  After about five minutes of heavy lifting, I realize I didn’t know what I talking about in the first place. If it’s too inconvenient/difficult to get that close, then it’s none of my business, anyway.

Lynn, that was beautiful, and painful too.  Thanks.

Harvey, spot on! This should not be a skirts/pants war, it should be a some-degree-of-modesty-oh-any-degree-of-modesty vs jeggins/leggings-minus-skirts war.

Hhahaha Simcha… your article NOT about modesty has turned into yet another modesty debate. How do you do it?!?!?

Loved your article…so funny and so true.

Kinda reminds me of that Fulton Sheen quote:

“There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing”

You don’t know anything about the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator! To think I once considered you a friend…

A priest told us at Mass a few weeks ago: “Let’s stand through the Eucharistic Prayer like they do at the Vatican.” What? Like when they’re all priests concelebrating? Like when there are a million people crammed in and they can’t possibly kneel?

Two questions :
1. Did Blessed Jacinta specify that it was fashions for women which would become offensive ?
2. I assume Blessed Jacinta spoke in Portugese. Does the word translated as ‘fashion’ have the same kind of connection with clothing as ‘fashion’ does in current English ?  After all, “fashion” has a much wider meaning.  but

(Continued) now it seems to be used almost exclusively for clothing styles.

If you google “jacinta” and “modesty” it takes you to a pretty creepy website called www.modesty.com .  It has a whole page dedicated to Jacinta - and it’s unclear to me if the word “fashion” is used for worldliness in dress (as in jewelry, lavish styles) or immodesty.  I also don’t understand the term “Mother Godhina”  sounds NOT like the Blessed Mother and just, well, creepy.

Annie, that’s entirely fair.  I see myself a bit in your post, because I have a tendency to run my mouth first and think later.  Maybe your prayers can help me as I struggle to walk the fine line between speaking courageously and being a jerk.

Donna: I was thinking the same thing.  The term “fashion” has a broader application to ANY trend of thought or behavior.  Especially circa 1917.  It’s like when somebody makes a huge freaking deal out of the word “intimate,” as if it always means “sexual” and always has.