Awesome, awesome, awesome!  I suffer from four of these daily, but I keep pressing on in prayer.  Thanks for acknowledging that our effort to stay in touch with God is the most important thing and that life running from or ignoring him certainly is worse than one with crappy praying skills.

Thank you for this reminder…prayer is simply talking to God.  He’s not impressed with fancy words; He is interested in the attitude of our hearts towards Him!  And thanks too for the reminder that we can’t fool God.  After all, He created us and knows us better than we know ourselves.  I can’t imagine a day going by without being it touch with God; He is everything to me and I thank Him every day for allowing Jesus to take my place on the cross so that I may enjoy eternity with Him!

I love this list, and would add one more: You may have a distorted image of who God is.  I used to (unknowingly) think of God as critical or disapproving . . . well, who would want to spend time with him, if that were true?  I had to learn why I thought that way, and spend some time reading the Bible and learning about His true, loving character—and that has dramatically changed my prayer life.

Yes!  Thanks so much for encouraging those who are in need and thanks so much for those who could use a list to supply those friends, family, and others who are in need.  What a blessing you are!

Absolutely, totally, wonderfully excellent.  I needed it today.

Peter Kreeft’s Prayer for Beginners is helpful.

I have a hard time thinking of the words to speak to God, and am so thankful for the Catholic Church’s wisdom in providing us prayers to use.  I find my life (both outer and inner) is so much better when I pray, even if it is just a rosary as I’m falling asleep at night.  When I don’t pray, I leave myself open to spiritual attack. Thanks for the reminder, Simcha.

My favorite prayer is like the refrain of a song that keeps running through my spirit, throughout the day; only it is nearly wordless and consists mostly of loving glances that are exchanged.

Thanks for the link to Ignatian Spirituality.  #3: Yes. “Just don’t skip it altogether”. Keep the line of communication open at all cost”.

Paul Simon proabably thought that he was being sarcastic when he first sang, “Heaven holds a place for those who pray,” but later, I bet, he said to himself, “hey, I believe that.”

Hmm, I used to pray every day, and nothing ever seemed to happen. So I stopped. And pretty much nothing has happened since I stopped. What do I make of this?

Well, I’m still confident that there is a God. And I think he’s probably listening.

In fact, that’s what’s so depressing: It’s not at all clear that he cares.

Jon,
So you prayed and nothing happened, then stopped and nothing happened either. So why so confident that there is a God, or that he may be listening? You might also observe that some Christians claim that God answered their prayers, but realize that Mormons, Jews, and Muslims report the exact same experiences. Are there multiple Gods? Does the phrase “wishful thinking” come to mind?

Zeke: Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe in the same God (and Mormons consider themselves Christians). Anyhow, God needn’t limit Himself to answering only the prayers of those with correct beliefs.

Jon: Maybe the answer was “no, that wouldn’t be good for you”? I hope you’ll give prayer another try, and that you’ll notice something happening this time—even (especially?) if what happens is just a renewed relationship with God. I admit I’m not always the best at prayer either, but I’ll say a quick one for you today.

The best answer for your first question, by St. Josemaría Escrivá:

You say that you don’t know how to pray? Put yourself in the presence of God, and once you have said, ‘Lord, I don’t know how to pray!’ rest assured that you have begun to do so. (The Way, 90)

I try to pray every day, but sometimes i do feel like my prayers go unheard or unanswered. Maybe i need more faith, but how? Also, how much prayer are we talking here; 5 minutes, 1 hour? I try (and fail) to pray a rosary every single day for various things in my life and others, is that enough (along with other random prayers)?

Jon,
OK. So, it is not clear to you that He cares. Let me say up front that I believe He does care and that I believe your comments are sincere. What is it that you need? What is it that, if it happened, would help you to believe that He cares? This could be very different for each person, because what we are looking for is this personal connection with God. That is why Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, talk so much about the importance of the personal relationship with Jesus Christ. But, back to what you are looking for. Is there someone you trust that knows Jesus? Is there someone with whom you can connect whose faith is strong enough to pray with you and for you? Seek that person out. Knock on their door. Bug them! And finally, are you humble enough, earnest enough, to accept what God has to say to you? His love is great, but He knows what is best for us far better than we do, and sometimes we don’t like to hear what He has to say. At that point, we have to swallow our pride and surrender.

Zeke,
Once again, I will assume you are sincere. Do you think that belief in God is wishful thinking? If so, why? There are many reasons to believe that He is real. Why do you think that He is not? If you are sincerely seeking answers for yourself, well and good. If you are tempting someone in a vulnerable spot into disbelief, be careful. You don’t want to qualify for a millstone.

Simcha, BTW, my post shows up as 7:36 PM (EDT), but, umm… aren’t we on Eastern Standard Time now? And, thanks for the 10 nudges!

I once prayed obsessively for something material that made perfect sense to me.  I prayed, I pleaded, I begged.  Now, years later I understand why that door needed to stay closed.
@Zeke, I didn’t think you had it in you to stoop like that.  That was rather fiendish of you…

Corey—As someone who very often feels more absence than presence of God, my advice to you is just to pray and don’t watch the clock and don’t carry around a bunch of “shoulds.”  What works for you might not work for me and vice versa.  I don’t think there is any magic formula (though there are lots of good examples to start your journey), but we are admonished to pray without ceasing—a tall order.  The priest who received me into the Church gave me good advice: to begin my habit of prayer by consecrating my day to God and to find ways to remind myself to step out of my routine and into prayer at regular intervals.  There are lots of ways to do that.  I have stoups at the doors and I make the sign of the cross and pray something like “May I go out with you, God, that I may journey with You and returning home, rest in You.”  I have a miraculous medal glued to the dash to remind me (it usually fails, but that’s ok; sometimes I remember) to pray before starting out my daily drive.  For a long time, I used a CD of the rosary and/or Divine Mercy Chaplet on the way to and from work; now I have a playlist of my favorite Latin hymns for the same purpose.  I put up prayer cards where I would see them in my office and that reminds me to stop and pray (there is even a “pray today for your workplace” sticker on my laptop…) What I found was, after a while, it became as natural as breathing to stop every now and then, just for a moment, and be aware of God’s presence which is, after all, always there even in those time when He seems remote or absent or silent.  I worry a lot less about what I ask for and have fewer particular expectations of prayer; after all, I don’t converse with my husband just to get him to do something…my prayers are often just lifting up people,  the Jesus prayer or “As you Know and as You will, Lord, have mercy”  or established prayers that I have found meaningful.  Sometimes it boils down to periods of just quiet where I can’t say anything in particular happens in my mind but I have stepped out of my routine to be with God. I have become comfortable with those times that I don’t “feel” heard or answered because I have come to understand that my feelings are not always a good measure of what is really happening and sometimes I wouldn’t recognize an answered prayer if it bit me on the nose because God’s answers are so often different from my expectations…so I try to leave the answers to Him and not define them in advance.  God speaks to us in the activity of the day, but we don’t really hear Him until we sit quiet to listen after all the hubbub is over—that’s prayer.  Anyway, just enter into the process; prayer will come and its form and its peace will surprise you.  After all, The Spirit does all the work…

Anna Lisa & Mark,
Well, Anna Lisa can testify from past encounters that I am completely sincere. I think Jon is on the cusp of where many Christians who became atheists were at some point. You want to believe for social reasons, to affirm the sense of what you’re all about, to maintain the relationships you have in this Christian culture. You ponder the sunk costs of admitting to yourself the pure coincidence of being born into the Christian faith and leaving it behind. One either has good reasons to believe in myths, or they don’t. Suggesting to Jon that it is merely self-deception to hold superstitious beliefs that make you feel better may be “stooping’ to you, Anna Lisa, but what good is faith if you routinely fail to question it? Sticking your fingers in your ears is not being honest with yourself.
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Jon? This is a tough question, but the answer doesn’t lie in the scribblings of ancient men. Have you any evidence for the efficacy of prayer? Does God really answer some prayers and purposefully ignore others, or is this a case of simple sampling error? The answers to such questions are knowable. People like Heidi will tell you it’s all the same God, without realizing that such assertions only underscore the reality that Gods are man-made.  “It’s a mystery” is a non-answer to the question of why answered prayers seem like an illusion, and a notion that rational humans should refrain from basing their life around.

Sometimes, when we ask God for something, the answer is “No.”  That doesn’t mean the prayer wasn’t answered.

God is immutable, unchangeable.  Prayer is to change us, not to change God.

For the last few months, my BW and I try to pray five decades of the Rosary each day:  Joyful mysteries Monday & Saturday; Sorrowful on Tuesday and Friday; Glorious on Wednesday & Sunday; and Luminous on Thursday. This is particularly helpful on centering us and our relationship on days that we don’t get to Mass.
We start morning prayer when we start the car.  Our parish church is less than ten minutes away, depending on the traffic signals. We say a “Glory Be . . .” before going to sleep at night; this seems to fend off nightmares.
Prayer together tends to calm our spirits.  Upon occasion we offer spontaneous prayers for someone we meet, or someone whose need has just been communicated.  We do attend Eucharistic Adoration for an hour each month.  This is quiet time, for each of us to listen. 
St. Francis de Sales repeatedly suggested that lay persons try to spend “a quarter of an hour” in God’s presence.  Consider yourself a messenger of the King.  You are waiting in an anteroom near the King’s throne.  The King may give you something to do; or He may not.  In any event, He will notice that you are (or have been) there.
TeaPot562

Jon, God’s blessings be upon you.  Do not lose hope.  God’s love for you is perfect, it is Holy for He is Holy.  “For I know the plans I have for you…Plans for good and not evil, to give you hope…” Jeremiah 29:11?  Enter into His love, ask for grace to grow in knowing, loving and serving Him.  Ask through the powerful intercession of the Blessed Virgin, Mary.  As long as we grow in placing our lives in His care, ‘His will be done’, we will grow in the grace necessary to Trust Him.  RMMT put it quite clearly—prayers are always answered.  If we do not receive what we are asking for, we know God always has our best interest at heart for He is God, we’re not.  Also, TeaPot562 mentions St. Francis de Sales…a great read!  Try Introduction to the Devout Life for it is a great way to grow!

Zeke, may the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May the Lord lift up His countenance upon you, and give you peace.

Simcha, I’m a long time reader, but I don’t think I’ve ever commented before…

I just wanted to tell you, I was in tears by #4 and I’m thinking I ought to call my priest.

Thank you.

Zeke seems to believe that the Christian conception of God is of a cosmic vending machine - a grand dispenser for our wishes.  Perhaps for some individual Christians who have a poorly thought out faith this is true.  But that is not the Christian faith. 

In reality, the God I believe in is a terrible force, the Creator of everything, arbiter and judge who may well send me and those I love to Hell.  This God loves us in the sense that he wills our good, but that good is entirely on His own terms.  It bears no necessary relation to what I believe is good for me or to what I want.  If I desire happiness, I must bend to Him, change my idea of what is good to conform to His, not the other way around. 

Does anyone really believe that is something I believe in because I wish it to be true?  No, that’s something I believe in because evidence I find compelling indicates that it is the truth.

What a horrible thing to believe. People should be relieved to know that there’s not a shred of evidence that this celestial version of North Korea is true.

@Salixbabylonica:  God doesn’t send people to hell.  Individual people make the choice to reject God and go there.  And I suspect that they have to work at it.
TeaPot562

“celestial version of North Korea” :D It’s hard not to like you Zeke—fiendish or not.  Go ahead now, tell us all, that anteaters and orchids, ostriches, octupi, DNA strands, neutrons, Kim Kardashian, you and I—and Kim Jong Un came from nothing.
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Good thing there’s proof He has a sense of humor.

Haha, thanks Anna Lisa. But I can’t take credit for for the N. Korea quip, I think it was from the late Christopher Hitchens. Truth is, I don’t know how everything came into existence, but I’m confident that the universe wasn’t created by God simply so that billions of years later, in a remote corner of it, mankind would evolve to worship Him. Or he would torment them for eternity in Hell if they didn’t. If God made anteaters, orchids and ostriches, then he also made malaria, polio and the AIDS virus.
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But that’s off topic here I guess. The notion that there is a God that listens to your prayers is common to all faiths, past and present. What are we to make of Muslims who attest to the exact same results of the benefits of their religion? It’s quite easy to see that they are delusional, yet they feel the same way about your beliefs. If prayer had any effect, it would be measurable, and would by definition work for only one religion. It doesn’t, and “it’s a mystery” is a poor answer to why this is so.

Zeke,
Didn’t you ever look at your parents like they were aliens when they wanted to sit for two hours and watch ballet?  Or worse, the opera?  Practicing piano was like an evil form of torture and felt like an eternity to my snotty little pea brain.
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What could we possibly fathom about the duration of 13.5 billion years to One who made the vast universe?  I don’t care if the next prodigy at Cal Tech unveils his thesis that it is 50 billion years old.  The message is the same: (His) time is not ours and (He) is 99.999% incomprehensible to us..
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His handiwork, and most importantly His gnarly, bloody, groaning, torture and crucifixion speak volumes *about* (Him).
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Most importantly, the small inkling we feel of love, toward our children that we sacrifice ourselves for, is but a mirroring glimmer of a LOVE so grandiose and vast, that the universe itself gives us a pin-hole peep into it.
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Spambot ate my first response, my own personal reflections on the purging power of pain in my life—(sigh) its just too exhausting to rewrite it, so—a very good topic for another time.
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I have no doubt there will be many people from many walks of life, culture and faith who will *be* in heaven…Human beings falsely extend their paltry words to (God) and try to “encapsulate” (Him) with silly words like “Heaven” that simply fall laughingly short of the mark.
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Rather than burning my synapses out on trying to wrap my brain around Heaven; I’d rather contemplate Him, in the ultimate act of Love on the cross, and whisper my inadequate gratitude, self donation, and paltry love, in return.

Hi Anna Lisa,
Well, one thing we agree on - 2 hours of opera or piano practice (or an hour in church in itchy clothes) felt like a billion years to me too :)
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Your point here seems to be that regardless of the prevailing science, and no matter how absurd it may seem, any Being sublime enough to have created our universe must be so far beyond our comprehension as to perpetually elude our powers of description. This argument is plausible, as far as it goes, but, of course it isn’t an argument for the existence of God, much less a good one. In any case, this conception of God allows you to say that your religious beliefs do not conflict with those of others, and anyone can get to what you call heaven.
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If you were saying - “Zeke, I just don’t know how I can convince you of this, but when I close my eyes and think of Jesus, I experience a feeling of utter peace and love. I’m calling this feeling ‘God,’ and I suspect that if more people felt this way, our world would be radically transformed.” Such an assertion would give me no trouble at all. But you (and Christians) are saying quite a bit more than that. You acknowledge that this Deity with a love so grandiose and vast condemns some of his creation to Hell for eternal torment. Despite the inability of our tiny human minds to grasp 99.999% of Him, we can talk to him and have a personal relationship with Him. And somehow, this multi-billion year process of creating us to his satisfaction went unexpectedly wrong, which required the sacrifice of a man named Jesus.
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Is it really that hard for you to understand why people find this impossible to believe? Why is this answer to the mystery of our reality superior to “I don’t know”?

God bless all of you who are persisting with Zeke!  Here are just a few thoughts…he’s saying, “No God.  No heaven.  No hell.”  I recommend reading and/or listening to Peter Kreeft—quite theologically and philosophically sound.  It even may have been Kreeft who said that he doesn’t understand why atheists are constantly sounding off that there is no God.  They go out of their way to say this, yet.  I don’t believe in unicorns.  But I’m not going around trying to convince everyone else in the world that unicorns don’t nor ever did exist.  I don’t take people to court who display unicorns.  I don’t tell all govnerment employees to remove all unicorns from their desks for I should not have to be subjected to someone else’s belief.
Finally, some souls at life’s end go to be with God and some will go where God isn’t.  God cannot contradict himself—He is all-just.  He left a very clear set of instructions.  For those who choose not to believe, deny themself, pick up their own cross and follow Him, make a choice.  Two paths in opposing directions…smoking?  or non-smoking?

I appreciate your respectful comments, cheeriosinpocket, but stereotyping atheists as “constantly sounding off that there is no God” is just as unhelpful as stereotyping Christians as all part of the “God hates fags” crowd. Perhaps you simply don’t know any atheists, or perhaps you do but they’ve never brought it up in polite conversation, as I rarely do. Cheers.

I have a very good reason for not praying—I am an atheist—who not only doesn’t believe in god(s) but is absolutely positive that no god(s) exist except in the irrational minds of “believers.

We are all made of star-stuff.

http://www.universetoday.com/94010/the-most-astounding-fact-about-the-universe/

I also enjoy opera, ballet, theater, museums, and the works of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and other atheists. I know more interesting people than you’ll ever know.

As for the Church being unchanging, another term for unchanging is stagnant, and stagnant waters are dirty waters.

“Jon? This is a tough question, but the answer doesn’t lie in the scribblings of ancient men.”

Yes, I suppose it doesn’t make any sense to put credence in writings that have been passed down intact for 50 generations, passing hand to hand like a beloved heirloom, tested by generation after generation, and confirmed in their truth value by the best of humanity.

But somehow it does make sense to put our full trust in an anonymous blogger named “Zeke” whose writings are vaguely derivative of a third rate journalist everybody has forgotten three years after his death.  The writings of “Zeke” himself will not even last that long, as they will leave a bitter aftertaste for about an hour and be forgotten the next morning.

Zeke - picture postcard vendor in a french train station.  Impression lasts until you tear up the postcard in revulsion.  Your hands feel dirty.

Ezekiel - A fulsome lass lying naked in bed nursing twins.  You may never recover.  Suddenly you are alive.

Jon, prayer isn’t magic.  It is talking with the holy Judge of all.  Before you ask for favors, you must come into a relationship with Him so that He is your Father, not your Judge.  That only happens by trusting that Christ’s death on the cross was the only and the perfect payment for your sin and that He rose from the dead, claiming victory over your sin.  That’s when you become a child of God.  As you begin to relate to Him as a Father, He invites you to bring your needs to Him in prayer, as well as to confessing your sins to Him in prayer (I John 1:9)  He promises to provide for our needs, but nowhere in Scripture does He promise to give us all our wants.  James 4: 3 warns against asking for things in prayer with the wrong motive of fulfilling our worldly desires. I Timothy 6: 8 encourages us to be content with food and covering.  Is it possible that a God who forgives our sins, offers us an eternity with Him, designed the complexity of our bodies, and gives us emotions, beauty, music, etc. doesn’t care about us? He has declared that He does love you, and He does not lie.

Matt B,
I always enjoy reading your posts & how you put the words together.But…folks posting on a Christian site deserve our charity & prayers.I don’t enjoy reading mealy-mouthed comments, either, but think we need to remember our real purpose here.

Zeke,
Have you seen those photos of the Germans who worked at Auchwitz, on their days off?  They look like happy, attractive, family members who are enjoying a little “downtime”.  There is nothing in their countenances which indicates conflict or that they aren’t like other mothers and fathers who love their families.  It is pretty obvious that in order to live such a duality one must be brainwashed.
—My point?
What will *judgement* be, but our ability to see with complete *clarity*.  Not just *clarity* to see what we have done, but the “butterfly effect” if you will, of how our choices impacted the lives of others.
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Perhaps we would die of fright to finally SEE and understand such horror.  What restitution could possibly suffice?
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Is it a cruel God who would allow us to know Truth?
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Perhaps it is easier to say: “All of this is a cosmic blunder.  Indifference prompted Acacia trees, iridescent jellyfish, Narwhals and Rhinos.  There is no true love, there is no right and wrong, there is no good.  There is no evil”.
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Might this stance be an attempt to extricate ourselves from the necessary responsibilities that are incumbent upon us?
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An atheist’s faith is the most absurd: That a universe could come into being from nothing at all.

@Matt B, Try to remember that honey vs. vinegar thing.  I just had the pleasure of reading your pot shots on the last thread too.  Thanks bro.  My style of parenting for better or worse is a version of my own mother’s.  The good thing is that all of her children and 25plus grandchildren are Catholic.  I would say this has more to do with the fact that our parents loved us despite our many foibles rather than the fire and brimstone approach.  She has a very high standard indeed. Perhaps you have no experience of foibles?  Now I find myself with the tables turned, and I’m the one fielding the bit of rebellion I used to dish out.  Perhaps you have no rebellion in your history?  Congratulations to both you and your mother who formed you…If this happens *not* to be the case than I would recommend that as a fairly new and untested father, you might want to consider this when it comes to your own parenting.  I think the world has seen enough of the “nuns with a big stick” approach. Who would want to pray with *them*?  I’m snuggling in with the Abba/Father one. I prefer to speak with Him as a child, before I’ve memorized by heart, the seven deadly sins.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Pat on the head.

anna lisa—atheism means having no faith. Why don’t you Catholics get that? We question everything.
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Tell me, which god do you think created the universe—YHWH, Odin, Brahma, Mbombo, Atum, Ptah, Nanabozho, Coatlicue, Viracocha, Esege Malan, Kamuy, Marduk, Vishvakarman, Pangu, or Allah?
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Why one god and not any others? Just cause the one god commanded you?

@ Nunu,
I like Zeke because he is civil (and funny; a true sign one isn’t far from God).  You, who claim you know more interesting people than I (lol)and that my faith is “stagnant”—I will not dialogue with.  We all answer to the best of our ability, the God who has left His imprint on our soul—whatever we call Him.  You sir, must have had your star dust pooped upon at some point, which would explain the stinky attitude.

correction: God, not, “the God who…” lest this be interpreted wrongly as a plurality.

“I think, therefore I am” has been replaced by “I read cheerios boxes, therefore I am an expert on everything.”

Try choosing one nuala.  Anything is better than nothing.

Matt B
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Why?
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anna lisa-Why is asking a question you can’t answer “uncivil?” Calling me “Nunu” is more uncivil than that.
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If you keep it up, I will call you “Juicy Lucy.”

Hmmmm Juicy Lucy, I’m intrigued.
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@N, Generally people don’t react well, or enter into a civil exchange when their friends are disparaged and their mother is called (impure) and useless.  Other atheists have more class than that.

Well, this got ugly in a hurry. Matt B, I must say I admire your flair for words too, despite usually not understanding what you are talking about. Dead journalist? Ezekiel? In any event, my posts to Jon were (meant to be) about the efficacy of prayer, as is the topic of this article.
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I can completely understand how Christian can believe that God created the universe (which cannot be disproven), but this insistence that prayer having any effect is perplexing. Why do Muslims find that their God answers their prayers too? Why are “answered prayers” indistinguishable from things that happen to atheists as well? Why are the effects of prayer immune to detection?
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Anna Lisa, maybe I’m dense but I missed your point. You continue to talk about love, beauty, and morality as if these don’t exist without God. Yet you manage to overlook the inevitable conclusion that He made disease, suffering, and condemns those who don’t play by His rules to eternal misery. Why? I’m sure you can quote some scripture or dogma that justifies this, but is this in any way consistent with a God of pure love?
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Finally, please resist repeating the little lies that Christians whisper to each other about atheists - that we have all the answers about the origins of the universe. We don’t know. Or that atheists can’t act morally, perform selfless acts, or love thy neighbour. We do. We simply cannot believe that a supernatural being did all this, or that the Bible is evidence worthy of serious consideration. There is no atheist creed, or required beliefs. I can imagine endless scenarios where I could be convinced that my beliefs are utterly wrong; can you say the same?

Why?  That’s a question you’ll have to answer for yourself.

Sorry for the obtuse nature of my post:  The “dead journalist” refers to Christopher Hitchens, whose bon mot you needed to attribute.  St. Augustine is still being quoted quite famously after 1500 years.  Images of St. Francis talking to birds or St. Anthony preaching to the fish perdure after 800.  St. Theresa is instantly associated with a rose - but she’s dead only 100 years.  Christopher Hitchens is known as “the balding cancerous atheist.”  None of his flatulent wit comes instantly to mind.

That’s because he failed in hope.  Humanity hates a loser, and atheists concede the game even before the opening gambit.  They spend their lives inventing rationales why they’re ending up as alcohol laden sod.

And if you’re hoping for consideration against atheism generalizations, you’ll have to get past “the God who made kittens, put snakes in the grass…” theme.  I don’t expect you will.  Atheism is a brain-deadening science.

In order quantify my observation, I compared the two-dimensional nature of atheistic thinking, with it’s furtive and deceptive nature, against the abundant life of a life of faith.  That abundance transcends mere rationalizing, which is an unfortunate tendancy of modern times.  Life it’s ownself goes beyond “I think therefore I am” and into “To be or not to be.”

Ezekiel is found between Jeremiah and Daniel in your all time hit parade of “worlds funniest jokes.”  There’s one in there about you!

On the other hand, God has devoted a whole chapter in there on how anna lisa will welcome you back from tedium and desolation with a home cooked meal.

“@N, Generally people don’t react well, or enter into a civil exchange when their friends are disparaged and their mother is called (impure) and useless.  Other atheists have more class than that.”

Did you mean me? When did I disparage your friends and mother?

Don’t tell me you don’t know what “Nunu” means:

NUNU is “Penis”

http://www.internetslang.com/NUNU-meaning-definition.asp

“That’s because he [Hitchens} failed in hope.  Humanity hates a loser, and atheists concede the game even before the opening gambit.  They spend their lives inventing rationales why they’re ending up as alcohol laden sod.”

What did you expect him to hope for? An “afterlife” he didn’t want? A diety he found repulsive and sadistic? He died at peace with himself.

What will you hope for when you die? What if you find out you were wrong and wasted your life believing the wrong ideas?

Lol, goodness, I never stop learning…and to think, I just figured out why my kids call a certain succulent plant that sends up a huge appendage every Spring the “Shlank plant”...My cup overflows. Sorry Nuala. 
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Just for future reference, many Catholics regard the Catholic Faith as “Holy Mother Church”.  Referring to her as a fetid swamp, won’t win you favor or esteem for your opinion.
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Zeke.  Oh Zeke. I’m tempted to bring up the “cup-o-noodles” abortionist, or maybe a few noteworthy atheists from the last century to explain why morality devoid of God can bring us to perilous places.  But I feel that we have already had this conversation.  For now, I will breathe a sigh of relief that by the grace of God we have evolved far enough not to eat our young, and hopefully won’t regress 100 years after God has been flushed from the public square.  For now I will defer to Matt B.who is gifted with volatile flashes of brilliance and painful coherence.  I agree with him that atheism is really for those who at best, lack imagination.  I would wager to say that the ex-Catholics who never evolved past second grade level CCD, have obvious problems with “see Dick run, run Dick run” theology.
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Matt, you must be psychic too, I can’t ponder those kittens and snakes right now because I’m behind on cooking a delicious home cooked meal! I took little Xave out for a waffle cone on his feast day!—and I’m a little behind.  Luckily the big squeakers in the bunch are all stuffed on premium ice cream, and are waiting patiently.

(giving that roiling broth 5 more mins.) @Zeke, I have an honorary Muslim Mom named Nezhat.  She is a lovely woman of God.  Why would I, or any other Catholic believe that God doesn’t hear her prayers?  Banish the thought.

What a treat for us all - more preachy, petulant, intolerant Christianity! Matt, I doubt though that you’ll have any difficulty citing scripture that condones condescending assholery in the face of intended civility. I would have quickly concluded it was Hitchens you hated so much, but knew that he’s been dead less than a year.  What should I make of the fact that Augustine is quoted 1500 years later? So is Muhammad. If I follow your reasoning, does this lend any credence to the notion that he flew to heaven on a winged steed? Or that the Qur’an is the perfect word of God? Such outrageous claims have stood the test of time as well.
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Another non-answer to why prayer shares all the traits of wishful thinking, except to suggest that the matter has been settled. Even to fellow Christian Jon who has begun to realize the narcissism and self-deceit of such beliefs, you offer no explanation beyond railing at those who dare question it. I believe I have already answered why for myself.  This would be so much easier if I was a faithful Catholic, and could just copy the Pope’s homework and get an A+ without showing my work. But I’m asking you, if you would deign to explain it to a lapsed Catholic. But I don’t expect you will.
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If you find the kittens and snakes generalizations juvenile, then perhaps Christians should refrain from assertions that a benevolent and loving God created pathogenic viruses (looking your way, Anna Lisa). The good doctor of the church you’re fond of citing found this easy to explain – it was Adam and Eve’s fault. Then again, he also reasoned through careful study of scripture that heretics should be tortured. It seems that faith can rationalize anything. You probably believe otherwise, but isn’t it remarkable that you are able to discern the truth teachings of your faith while such icons of Catholic thought failed?
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Oh, Anna Lisa, how disappointing that you suggest we would be eating our young and acting like immoral animals without the grace of God. I’m likewise tempted to bring up Church-sanctioned pedophilia and the groundwork laid by those like Aquinas and Augustine who paved the way for Christians to happily torture heretics for centuries. Yes, I believe we’ve already had this conversation – atheists criminals were wrong to commit historic atrocities of the past, as were Christian criminals, but they never justified it by claiming God was on their side. If such were true, even on a small scale, we’d expect to find our prison population disproportionately represented by atheists. Unsurprisingly, the opposite is true.
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Why would you believe that God wouldn’t hear your Muslim friend’s prayers? For starters, Islam is a religion that repudiates the core claims of Christianity. She is praying to a very different God than you. By this reasoning, why doubt that the Gods of Mt. Olympus didn’t hear the prayers of faithful ancient Greeks?

anna lisa—ok, I’ll accept that you didn’t know, if you accept that I didn’t know. It seems that you don’t mind disparaging my fellow atheists and myself because of my atheism, and you expect me to take it in stride.

It’s been my experience that people who express disdain for atheism and atheists also don’t like opera, ballet, and other humanities. they really don’t know what they are missing by not appreciating the arts.
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I still assert that I know more of the beauty of humanity and the universe by appreciating arts such as opera and dance, and not just focusing on one myth and obeying the doctrines of one “authority.” I figure that since I have no gods, I’ve already broken the first “commandment,” so why bother to follow other Catholic precepts, just because they are Catholic precepts?

Well, I see I caused quite a little debate.

Let me try to answer a few of these comments:

First, I don’t think God is a magic genie. If I pray for a pony and don’t get a pony, I don’t think that proves there’s no God. I think it’s a child’s view of the world to imagine that God is some kind vending machine, where you put prayers in and get “favors.” That goes both ways, though: if you pray for something and it happens, that doesn’t mean God did it. (This is why you lack credibility if you’re “praising Jesus” every time something randomly good happens.)

Likewise, to seek “evidence” of the “efficacy of prayer” is silly. You can’t apply the scientific method to matters of faith, and then declare that because X hypothesis can’t be proven, it all must be nonsense. If you dont want the religionists demanding we teach “intelligent design” in science class, then it’s no fair asking them to apply he scientific method to their belief in prayer. If you could do this with faith, they would call it science. 

Finally, re: this comment:

“you must come into a relationship with Him so that He is your Father, not your Judge.  That only happens by trusting that Christ’s death on the cross was the only and the perfect payment for your sin and that He rose from the dead, claiming victory over your sin. “

This opens two new cans of worms for me. First, what does it mean to be “in a relationship” with God? I have heard this for 40 years but I’ve never heard any but the tritest 700-Club-type explanations for it. Everyone I’m in a relationship with interacts with me directly and that interaction is the basis of the relationship. But God does not. Second, possibly off point, why was it necessary for Christ to die on the cross for the forgiveness of man’s sins? Christ is God. Why couldn’t he just forgive our sins (assuming we’re sincerely repentant)?

Oh, and Matt B, I say this as someone who is most definitely not an atheist: you, sir, and people like you, are why I stay away from the church. It isn’t God I object to; it’s the other Catholics. Not all. Not even most. But the small, smug, angry, and oh-so-self-assured jackwads are usually the ones running most parishes.
So congrats, Matt B:  you’re officially the Best Reason Of the Week to remain a lapsed Catholic.

You might as well blame “Superstorm Sandy.”  Take responsibility for your own lack of faith, kiddo.  If your faith was dependent on me, you’d be getting a spanking, and not a lecture.

At least the gods of olympus are interesting, Zeke.  Close adherence to their basically human ways leads to an understanding and appreciation of the transcendent.  That’s what Plato is all about.  Even holding tight to Islam’s overwrought humanism will advantage the faithful over blunt cynical denial.  I myself favor Buddhism, while not accounting it divine.  Practice of Buddhism and even Hinduism affords the soul a predisposition to receive divine truth.  If you want to get mystical about it, when you reach the height of revelation, labels fall away.  What is, merely is.

A-theism, or Lapsed anything, is on the other hand, not anything.  It is the state of willfull denial.  If it is affirmative, it affirms a lesser or subordinate reality, as a half-baked afterthought.  It is the worship, not of God, but of self.  It is the individual’s plunging into the shallow depth of his or her own individuality - which can never satisfy or even explain.  How can you explain the totality of life, reason, art, science with reference to physical nature or your own inherent limitations?

If you can, you’re the snake that eats it’s own tail.  You’re Narcissus plunged into his own reflection.  You’ve fallen captive to the illusion of physical reality.  You’ve apostasized from faith, and deserve only death.

If I might apologize for my brother saints, when I hear arguments like your long-winded above, I forgive them for their positions on torture and capital punishment.  They had close at hand the witness of Nero and Domitian; Vandals and Visigoths raping and pillaging their way through civilization; Attila and Gengis Khan; scimitars and slaughter.

Today we have a similar butchery - of logic and common sense.  We have pagan avatars sweeping through formerly civilized nations like a horde of semiliterate vandals, crucifying believers and putting women and children to death.  Nothing is holy, nothing is true.  Nothing is even very interesting.  Everything is about self-important midgets dominating mature people with complaints about intellectual diaper rash.  It’s a tin drum.

So I’m down with Aquinas and Augustine.  I can definitely dig it, I really can.

Apparently my last comment is still waiting to be screened for spam. My that happens fast—was it because of my explaining why I was offended by “Nunu?”

Maybe slight variations in spelling will get past the censors.
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At the risk of repeating: In my experience, people who disdain atheism and atheists also dislike opera, ballet, and the humanities in general. They are stuck in one religion/philosophy that they believe to be the “truth” and are not open to any other expressions. That is a shame, because they are missing some of the most beautiful experiences of being human.
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Opera, ballet, the humanities, every form of human expression is the demonstration of the joy of being. If you don’t appreciate the arts, you have no imagination.

How many people “prayed” that Romney would win the election?

Matt—How is Jon not taking responsibility for his lack of faith? Since when was “having faith” the default? Is faith something you have or something you seek?
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If faith is something you are born with, how can there be free will?
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If there is no free will, how can you be faithful?
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And what is the point of being faithful if you have no choice?
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How do you take responsibility for your “having faith?”
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Matt—it’s up to you to tell me why I should believe in any god, rather than nothing. You are the one who put the proposition.

anna lisa, mea culpa again.  However, I’m not really interested in flies, but bees.

A - people who disdain people in general are missing a great joy, and probably the entire purpose of their life.

B- It’s really unfortunate that the arts became so obsessively self-referential and morbid.  Joyce was funny up until Finnigan’s Wake.  Since then all self-conscious art is dreck.  Give me a man playing Bach on the tub.

C - Everyone who prayed for Romney also prayed that Utah would win the World Series.

D - Jon is blaming me (or other such Christian boorish men) for repelling him from his obligation to follow his faith.  Sounds rather sophomoric to me.

E - Faith is a gift and a contagious disease.  If you leave the party without it, you haven’t tried hard enough.

F - In the book of Job they have this discussion ad nauseam.  Job’s friends try to argue that there is a God, but he’s resistant - mainly because Satan has robbed him of his health and wealth and happiness.  At the end, God takes up the discussion himself.

It’s not God’s persuasiveness in speech, or the probative power of his argument that silences Job.  God merely reveals a representative slice of his self - that’s enough.  Other accounts in the Bible also show God’s interlocutors being affected profoundly and forever by a fleeting glance of heaven.

Forget whatever I’m telling you.  Look for that.

Just FYI: where I live, NuNu’s a pretty common nickname.We have several establishments, including a grocery store, with that name(the owner’s nickname).

@Kathleen, you should have seen my husband’s raised eyebrows when a local couple named their artisan ice cream shop after her Italian grandmother “CiCi”, prnounced Chee Chee.  Needless to say, he liked getting ice cream there.

Nuala, I didn’t like opera, piano practice, and ballet as a child.  My sister was a prima ballerina, and I’d already seen more ballet before I reached the age of reason, than people see in a lifetime.  Now I have a healthy respect, enjoyment, appreciation…Perhaps people get a bad taste in their mouths for religious experience, if they too have been forced to approach it in the wrong manner.

Jom, I too cringe from the magic genie approach.

I think we have strayed far and long enough.  What Zeke, Nuala and Jon don’t seem to understand is most questions asked require an in-depth response.  It is easy to say, “There is no God.”  It is quite a different level to say, Is there a God?  Does He really answer prayers?  Does He ignore some?, etc., etc., etc.  First, prayer is not requesting.  Prayer takes many forms:  Worship, Praise, Thanksgiving, Intercession, Petition, Meditation, Reading and Reflecting on The Word of God, etc.  So, you really missed the point of Simcha’s article.  Zeke, I was quoting Peter Kreeft (re-read my comment, please) when I said what I said.  Nuala, Catholic means Universal.  Universal Truths are taught, so that may be why you would want to follow the Catholic Church’s teachings.  And, dear Jon, never allow any person(s), their words, their actions, etc., come between you and God.  I have a bit more to share…it’s a quote…

I read this in my prayer time this morning (by Fr. Gaitley)
“...Let’s reflect for a moment on this vision of reality:  First, everything going forth from God.  Think of all creation.  God speaks, and it goes forth from Him.  Then, plants and animals return to God by fulfilling their natures, by being what they were created to be.  They do this without thinking or deliberating and with a sort of ease.  It happens by a kind of instinctual autopilot.  Human beings, on the other hand, are different.  While there are times when we act by instinct, we also act in a way different from the animals.  We act by reason and will, and we’re conscious as we do so, present to ourselves as we act.  This is what it means to be made in the image of God:  We can know God and love Him.  And whereas the animals do God’s will by instinct, we can do His will freely and consciously.  The problem is, we abuse the freedom God gave us.  We don’t always choose His will, and so we don’t return to Him as we should.  We sin.  And if we sin gravely and don’t fully repent, then we don’t make it back to God.  This is a great tragedy of human life.  But thanks be to God!  For He sent His only Son and the power of His Spirit to save us, to bring us back home to our Father in heaven…”

I read this in my prayer time this morning (by Fr. Gaitley)
“...Let’s reflect for a moment on this vision of reality:  First, everything going forth from God.  Think of all creation.  God speaks, and it goes forth from Him.  Then, plants and animals return to God by fulfilling their natures, by being what they were created to be.  They do this without thinking or deliberating and with a sort of ease.  It happens by a kind of instinctual autopilot.  Human beings, on the other hand, are different.  While there are times when we act by instinct, we also act in a way different from the animals.  We act by reason and will, and we’re conscious as we do so, present to ourselves as we act.  This is what it means to be made in the image of God:  We can know God and love Him.  And whereas the animals do God’s will by instinct, we can do His will freely and consciously.  The problem is, we abuse the freedom God gave us.  We don’t always choose His will, and so we don’t return to Him as we should.  We sin.  And if we sin gravely and don’t fully repent, then we don’t make it back to God.  This is a great tragedy of human life.  But thanks be to God!  For He sent His only Son and the power of His Spirit to save us, to bring us back home to our Father in heaven…”
So, Catholic teaching follows natural law.  My goal is the beatific vision when my body dies.  My soul and yours are eternal.  But God will never force you to believe in Him.  Never.  He will continue to reveal Himself to each of us daily, if we choose Him and daily enter into prayer with Him.

anna lisa,
Maybe I shouldn’t ask, but what does CiCi mean?
We have pizza places in the South named that.I’d never thought about it before.

Zeke, I just spent a good amount of time trying to give you a thoughtful answer on the problem of pain, but again, the filter kicked it off and erased it—running out the door, late for kindergartner…
@Kathleen, female body parts—all good, and different according to which country you live in, in Latin America.

On this earth we have a foretaste of both heaven and hell.
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Perhaps to be a virus is the lowest most ignominious state of being in the natural order.  They exist and replicate themselves without any benefit to any other life form.  They are living reminders that hell exists. The state of *being*, is better than the state of *not being*, even in hell. Viruses exist thanklessly,and thoughtlessly, inflicting harm upon the hosts they are parasitic upon.
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At the other end of the spectrum a human being can exist without sharing any attributes whatsoever with this lowest life form.  To reach this state of perfection is to be truly and fully human.  To achieve this state is to become God-like.
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Some animals exhibit what would appear to be traces of a kind of altruism.  Yet, while an animal may lay its life down for its young it does so by instinct.
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On the other hand, the most wretched creation that has ever existed is the one that exists the most like a virus—yet has a God-like mind that can choose between “right” and “wrong”.  In choosing *wrong*, it plunges itself to the lowest most ignominious state of being, of all.
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This is why Satan is the lowest of all.  He was the most like God considering all of his gifts, and now is more wretched than a virus because of them.

Yay, I was able to write something from a different (not comprehensive!) angle, and was only flagged as “potential spam”.  Interesting exercise anyhow.  We’ll see when it bubbles up from the underbelly of the NCR comment moderating apparatus.

cherriosinmypocket—everything you say begs the question. Just because a lot of people believe what they are told does not make it the “truth.”
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While “Is there a God?” is a legitimate question, the rest of them (“Does He really answer prayers?  Does He ignore some?, etc., etc.”) are based on the false premise that the answer to the first question is “yes.” There is no evidence that there is a God, and the rules of logic require that you establish the first premise as a fact before the rest of a syllogism can be a fact.
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“Catholic” may mean “universal,” but only Catholics believe their “truth” is universal. They just don’t allow anyone to have a different opinion.
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All religions are based on premises that have no evidence in reality. They can be pretty and they can be used to justify genocide, but they are not facts.

anna lisa—then blame your parents for you lack of appreciation for the arts. You still don’t know what you’re missing.

Jon has a very valid point that most comments seem to ignore—Catholics and be rude, dismissive, disdainful, and contemptuous to any non-Catholic or “not good-enough” Catholics. Their behavior is repulsive and their “reasons” for belief insult intelligence. It’s no wonder Jon is beginning to look else where.

Matt-B—your opinion does about the arts does not matter. It will continue to exist even longer than your religion because arts are dynamic while religion is “unchanging.”

@Nuala:reading comp. dude.
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I. have. a. great. appreciation. for. the. arts.
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I. didn’t. have. a. great. appreciation. in. preschool.
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I’m picturing you reveling in “The marriage of Figaro” at four.
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would that we could all be prodigies. lol

Matt B—

YOU. HAVE. TO. TELL. ME. WHY. I. SHOULD. BELIEVE. IN. GOD.

Who are you to tell me that I’m self-centered because I don’t believe in any gods, while you think you’re better than me because you’re Catholic? For that matter why is having a religion “better” than not having a religion? What “reasons” do you have for asserting that any god is better than none, other than your own narcicissm?

Nuala, your caustic demeanor is indicative of why humans can’t get along.  Why don’t you follow your own high handed advice?

onlooker—

Now you’re observing caustic demeanor? What about this?

A-theism, or Lapsed anything, is on the other hand, not anything.  It is the state of willfull denial.  If it is affirmative, it affirms a lesser or subordinate reality, as a half-baked afterthought.  It is the worship, not of God, but of self.  It is the individual’s plunging into the shallow depth of his or her own individuality - which can never satisfy or even explain.  How can you explain the totality of life, reason, art, science with reference to physical nature or your own inherent limitations?
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If you can, you’re the snake that eats it’s own tail.  You’re Narcissus plunged into his own reflection.  You’ve fallen captive to the illusion of physical reality.  You’ve apostasized from faith, and deserve only death.—Matt B.

How is Matt B any less caustic?

Pleas explain what you find so irritating about my comments. I don’t understand why you felt you had to join the exchange.

My kids resort to the same diversions.  What about HIM???  OR as Ghandi observed, “an eye for an eye, and the whole world would be blind.”

What about who?

I still don’t understand why you felt you had to join the exchange, and why you don’t think Matt was “caustic” to me. You’re not making a fuss about Matt’s attitude. Why do you resent me?

I don’t resent anyone.  Matt B takes pot shots at everybody, atheist or not.
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Anyone can say anything they want on an open forum.  The more civilized ones do so with a civilization building demeanor.

Nuala, You do not understand what I am saying nor my point.  Those questions that I listed came from the 3 of you…Zeke, you and Jon.  They were not following from the first question “Is there a God?”  You are missing the point of this article.  If you choose to not believe in God, case closed.  That, Nuala, is your choice.  You express yourself quite clearly that your friends or acquaintances are exactly the people you choose to be around; additionally, you seem to think that because a few people on this site choose to not enjoy something you enjoy, they are beneath you.  No one has to prove anything to you.  You have made your choice…live with it and, at some point, die with it.  Go have your fun atheist times.  Understand, that we, Catholics, freely chose to know, love and serve God.  Not even the sum of His creation equals Him.  God is, God always was, and God always will be.  His(s)tory victorious!

So Matt B taking pot shots at every body is a “civilization” building demeanor? What is it about my comments that you find caustic?

I think that calling me a narcissistic, self-worshiping, tail-eating snake who deserves death, isn’t very civilized.

Matt B wrote that believing in any god was better than nothing. I am asking him why.

I’m also now asking you why you felt you had to join the exchange by admonishing my comments and letting Matt’s “pot shots” go without judgment. I think you do resent me, because you have singled me out for your criticism of my “demeanor.”

If you will kindly tell me what it is about my demeanor that bothers you, I will make an attempt to change it, if I can.

Obviously other people resent me too- I changed my name to get in.

So Matt B taking pot shots at every body is a “civilization” building demeanor? What is it about my comments that you find caustic?

I think that calling me a narcissistic, self-worshiping, tail-eating snake who deserves death, isn’t very civilized.

Matt B wrote that believing in any god was better than nothing. I am asking him why.

I’m also now asking you why you felt you had to join the exchange by admonishing my comments and letting Matt’s “pot shots” go without judgment. I think you do resent me, because you have singled me out for your criticism of my “demeanor.”

If you will kindly tell me what it is about my demeanor that bothers you, I will make an attempt to change it, if I can.

OK, the blog really hates me. I’ll try another approach.
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Onlooker—you obviously resent me because you singled me out for my demeanor while letting Matt B get away with his “pot shots.” Why else did you join us?
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Cheerios—It would be “case closed,” except that Matt B told me I should believe in [some] god rather than nothing. I’m asking that he explain why it is better. I don’t see why you and onlooker feel you have to intervene.
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Onlooker—I repeat, please tell me what you find irritating about my comments and I’ll try to change my demeanor.

Hey! the new moniker is getting through!

Cheerios—Thanks for letting me be an atheist. You can live and die with your choice as well.

...additionally, you seem to think that because a few people on this site choose to not enjoy something you enjoy, they are beneath you.
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A lot of people seem to think the same way about me—yet onlooker doesn’t seem to mind that demeanor.

Irish eyes,

The soul is a young maiden, or “alma,” which is given by its Father into marriage with its Lord.

Whereas in earthly marriage, the bride is said to “lose her innocense,” in heavenly marriage the soul both retains her innocense, and mounts to heights of heavenly glory.  This is because divine union is the soul’s meet condition.  From divine union springs eternal life, in abundance.

It is possible for a fractious and rebellious alma to chose other mates.  These are false idols and evil spirits.  From these she gives birth to bad dreams and fetid air.  Atheism is of this sort: a bad dream engendered by innocense and pride.  Innocense + pride = ignorance.

So the choice is really yours.  My recommendation: choose life.

Nuala,
I hope I have the privilege of finding you in a state of eternal bliss one day.  Maybe we will drink a glass of wine together and laugh about these childish squabbles.  Peace.

(You know I’m really Nuala)
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Matt B and onlooker—you did not answer my questions. Can you at least tell me why you won’t answer them?

In your own words, onlooker:

My kids resort to the same diversions.

It might be civilized if you apologized to me, but I don’t expect it.

Matt B—Those are pretty words, but you are presenting a false dichotomy. It’s not an “either-or” choice. I can respect life and still be an atheist—and I do. I certainly have better things to do with my Sunday mornings than to worship a suffering deity and take part in a cannibalistic ritual.

I am pro-life. I want to live my own life. What if I don’t want to “marry my father?” (That is sick.)

I prefer to marry a human man, thank you very much.

How is your pride of being Catholic any different from my pride of being an atheist?

Sorry I had to stay away so long. And, I hate lengthy posts, but Cherrios is right that genuine questions are easier to ask than to answer. I don’t think arguments will “prove” God exists, but I’d like to suggest that it is at least as reasonable to believe as not. Here are some things to ponder (with thanks to Aidan Nichols):
1. What is meant by the word, “God”, in the first place (at a very basic level)? To many people, it seems enough _that_ the world exists without wondering why. But to many, religious or not, logic demands that something transcending everything else brought that “everything else” into being. For shorthand, let’s use the word “God” for this. If that doesn’t make sense to you, that’s OK for now. Let’s move on.
2. Why do we believe some actions to be wrong and others to be right? We don’t always agree what these are, but the sense that good and evil are objectively real and beyond myself is very powerful. And, if I am truly honest, I have to admit that there is a disturbing mixture of evil and good in my own life. Taboos of society or religion or parenting don’t fully explain this to me. It is as if there were something personal about morality.
3. One of the strongest reasons for belief for me turns out to be one of the strongest reasons atheists give for disbelief, and that is the feeling of dissatisfaction with the way things are. Why malaria, polio, tsunamis, death and suffering? Not only that, but why do I have this sense that even if every physical and moral evil were banished I would STILL be dissatisfied and unhappy? It is as I were programmed to not find satisfaction in present reality, and this really bothers me. My “desire to know and need to love appears to be in some sense endless”. Is there something beyond this world that fits? The atheist seems rather to write it all off as nonsense.
4. Why does hope persist? Why, in the face of all, no matter what, does it seem more natural to hope than to despair? I’m not saying despair doesn’t exist, but hope is so powerful, the will to exist so strong, it seems as if I more naturally hope that God is than that he isn’t. To call it wishful thinking doesn’t do it justice. There is something so much more noble about hope.
5. Is prayer efficacious? Obviously this isn’t scientifically demonstrable, but the direct experience of the divine, or eternal reality, or God, on the part of vast numbers of trustworthy witnesses is undeniable. How I as an individual tap into this sort of divine connection is another question entirely, but to simply dismiss such things as foolishness without taking them seriously seems unwise.
6. Finally, there is the fact of the intelligibility of the world. Why is it that human beings seem so exquisitely attuned to the world, to be able to “penetrate it by means of [their] own processes of thought”? The fact of such an extraordinary fit between what I am and what the world is points analogously to a creative mind which infinitely transcends my own.
As I say, none of this proves God exists, and, although I would never disparage someone’s disbelief, these things all point in one direction. Of course, many other questions remain unanswered: why different religions, what is sin and why is it important, why does suffering exist, etc. I believe these all have reasonable answers, but they go far beyond my time and energy for tonight.

Jon, I came back to try to give a pithy response to “what does it mean to be ‘in a relationship’ with God?”. Assuming you believe God exists, assuming you believe that the Jewish and Christian conception taught about Him to be worthy and reasonable, a relationship with God unfolds on many levels. As an adult, you have the capacity to acknowledge that God is your Creator, so your relationship starts off by deciding you don’t want to oppose Him. You are right that interaction with Him is different from seeing and speaking with another human being because that mode of interacting with him, being “in a relationship” with Him could only occur for about 30 years long ago. Even then, very few had the opportunity, and almost no one recognized Him as God anyway. So, what to do? First, are you able to see that this isn’t the only problem? Do you also recognize that you and I start off by being handicapped, blinded spiritually, because of the wrongs we have done and do? If you do, maybe I can come back for what I believe is the next step.

The authentic calling of a believer in Christ is to witness to the truth.  However, this “truth” is far beyond any believer’s ability to adequately sum up in a terse statement.  Look at some of the saint’s ponderous tomes towards this purpose.

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote a lot of very thoughtful and influential books during the high period of scholasticism, which have been valued and appreciated by scholars ever since.  In his own day his opinion was sought by people at the highest level of the secular and ecclesiastical authority.  As far as intellectuals go, he was the real McCoy.

But towards the end of his life, he experienced the risen Christ in a direct and mysterious way, as he was travelling in the French Alps returning from an important meeting in Rome.  He experienced his Lord, rather than thought about him.

He concluded that “all my previous work (considerable by any standard) was nothing but straw.  All the summas, all the treatises, all the church diplomatacy, all the teaching and studying… straw.

How do you get your arms around God, Nvala?  How do you explain him, or even understand Him?  It comes down to inchoate babbling, or ecstatic song.  It comes down to patient rituals repeated in an escalating chorus.  It comes down to Yes, Yes, Yes!!!

My witness to you is:

Mark—
You got me on #1 until you wrote that “logic demands something transcendent to bring the world into being.” To me it’s the same as saying that “God” is a concept invented by humans because they haven’t figured out why life exists and need to believe there is a reason:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pL5vzIMAhs

(I really hate the advertising at the beginning of a lot of YouTube videos.)

There really is no reason to believe in a creator unless you are terrified of the randomness of the universe that exists around us. Religious people need certainty—that’s why they cling to the belief of an unchanging, universal Church.

We atheists, like Neil deGrasse Tyson, accept the reality of randomness and probability. We know life is short, and we don’t waste our short time in existence in needless rituals to appease a fictional deity.

I’ll agree that belief in a god—however you define god—can be a good way to stop dwelling on the dissatisfaction of being mortal, but why do Catholics/Christians have to impose the belief in their particular “God” and “Savior” on others?” Everyone says “it’s a choice,” but then they tell me that choosing not to be Catholic, or to believe in any deity at all” is wrong and they are better than me because they made the “right” choice.

They also condemn people when that don’t act by Catholic doctrines—like voting for Obama.

And when I ask a simple question—why is it better to believe in a deity than not?—they get very creative in avoiding a direct answer.

Matt B—as I wrote before, you wrote some very pretty thoughts about the alma and marriage to the church, but do you really think I’ve never encountered that philosophy before?

Is this conversation over?

It doesn’t have to be, but my opportunities to write may not line up with yours too well. If you don’t mind that I enjoy the conversation.

Nuala, perhaps we agree on some things more than I thought! I also accept the reality of randomness and probability, in fact, I rely on a random number generator to assign my students their password! I also know that life is short and try to use my existence loving others, and I’m _really_ opposed to needless rituals and fictional deities. Of course, although all of this is true, you know I’m just teasing, because you _know_ I’m somehow going to admit that I allow my sense of right and wrong to supersede randomness as a characteristic of the ground of being; and although I love life as much as anyone, I hope I might have the strength to deliberately allow it to be shortened if my non-fictional deity asked it of me. Also, you got me on the ritual thing. I was raised anti-ritual on principle, but find needful ritual live-giving. I suppose you won’t think that this is much of a direct answer to why it is better to believe in a deity than not, but if you can put up with me, maybe I’ll find a better way to say it!

Hey, if performing/participating in ritual makes you feel good it’s OK by me. I just don’t appreciate people insisting I do the same.
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I’m not quiet sure what you mean your reply by allowing “your sense of right and wrong supersede the randomness as a characteristic of the ground of being.”
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I have a sense of right and wrong, and I don’t believe in a deity. You have a sense of right and wrong, and you think there is a god. If you didn’t believe in a god, would you act differently (aside from not performing a religious ritual)?
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Once again, we agree more than I expected. I’m glad it’s OK by you that I live out my faith by participating in my religion’s ritual, because there are plenty of folks out there that would prevent me from doing so if they could. And, I also would not appreciate others insisting that you do the same; in fact, it is a tenet of my religion that a person who would fully participate in my religion’s most important ritual must understand, believe in and allow it anchor his or her life. Those who do not must not participate in that way. Also, I don’t mean to quibble, but I don’t participate to feel good, although sometimes my feelings are affected. Please forgive my lack of clarity with the sentence about randomness and morality, and I certainly didn’t mean to imply anything about your sense of right and wrong, so we definitely share that as well. Would I act differently if I didn’t believe in a god, aside, as you say, from ritual? I suspect I would, because this belief in a god is like a center point from which my thoughts and actions flow, or like a key that unlocks a sluice-gate behind which pure and life-giving waters press.

Now, I’ll try to straighten out my thoughts about the randomness comment. If randomness, and not meaning, is the most important fact about “what is”, then right and wrong is not as important as randomness. If right and wrong are not as important, then isn’t one choice as good as another? But, you and I agree, through our sense of right and wrong (although we may differ in particular cases), that choosing what is right is more important than choosing randomly. Why is this? I’m afraid that if you choose to reply I may have several days before I will be able to continue the thread, so I hope you won’t give up on me.

Theoretically, yes—if the universe has no purpose and the only reality is randomness, then there would be no “right” or “wrong”—and probably no life at all.
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Well, it’s 99.999% probable that there is no god and the universe has no purpose, reality is not totally random. Gravity, electromagnetism, natural selection, and other phenomena cause patterns, making some things more probable than others. That’s what it means to live with probability.
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There are patterns in reality that are very reliable, but something can happen at random that “screws up the works.” Earthquakes, asteroids, or deterioration of the magnetic field that protects the Earth from the solar wind are among the number of ways life can end. The only thing we know for certain is that in a few billion years or so, life on Earth will be extinct.
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Mark, you don’t seem the kind of person who would loose his sense of right and wrong if you no longer believed in a god—you would just loose your sense of direction. We just find different ways of navigating in this life.

Nvala, I find your scientific reasoning incredible.  Talk about faith!  How can you reconcile the principle of randomness, which says anything can happen at any time, with such statements as “Gravity, electromagnetism, natural selection, and other phenomena cause patterns, making some things more probable than others.”  That’s like saying “darkness is universal, except for where there’s light.” 

Also, there’s this: “The only thing we know for certain is that in a few billion years or so, life on Earth will be extinct.”  I’m not sure about what will happen in the next 20 minutes!  And you’re certain of an event billions of years in the future?  The probability of forcasting a random occurrence contingent on an infinite number of precedents unthinkably remote is hyperastronomical.

I can detect the flaw in your thinking, and your religious belief.  You consider yourself an atheist, but what you really are is a believer in the modern religion of science.  Science performs for you what traditional religion performs for traditional believers: providing meaning and direction in your thought and in your life.  Science in fact pretends to be a religion (an anti-religion if you will); and intends to soak up all religious belief into one big rational ball.  You are an adherent of this faith.

Don’t pretend it’s not religion all the same.  If you examined your life, you’d find all kinds of rituals that conform to your scientific religious faith.  Washing your hands, brushing your teeth, sneezing into a handkerdchief…  these are all the rituals of science.  (And there are many more.  Extreme traditional religious believers are called “zealots.”  Modern extreme religious believers are called “OCD.”  Well, maybe traditional zealots are also OCD as well.)

When choosing religions, you have to imagine you’re shopping for a computer.  First of all the hardware is your heart and mind.  You’ll want a lot of capacity, with the option to add on.  Some of this is “hard-wired,” but some you have the ability to increase.

The next most important decision is operating system.  The OS manages information within your hardware configuration, and determines what tasks you will eventually be able to accomplish with your information system.  There are Microsoft products that only work on PC; there is MAC which only handles MAC - you want the most flexibility and dynamism.  Especially if you’re going to be working high-end computations.

Some tasks you can do with a ipad - hooking up to the internet.  Some computers generate huge amounts of data and information.  All computers work essentially the same way.

Religion is like your operating system, processing data and information through routines and subroutines.  A good operating system handles information efficiently.  If bugs get in, your operating system, and thence data efficiency is corrupted.  You start getting inconsistent results and error messages.

Good clean data has the effect of enabling pristine decision making and accomplishing desired results.  That’s where you want to be.

That’s like saying “darkness is universal, except for where there’s light.”
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Exactly-there is enough randomness to make everything temporary, and enough patterns to make life exist for a short time. As it is 99.999% probable that there is no god (there is no evidence of a god), it is much more probable that our lives will end, and eventually life on earth will end. Even stars die.
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Scientists are looking on Mars for conditions of carbon-based life and if even a microbe is identified, it would be an amazing milestone in scientific research. And that is more probable than finding evidence of a god.
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The probability of forecasting a random occurrence is contingent on an infinite number of precedents unthinkably remote is hyperastronomical.
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That’s exactly my point. We get up every morning expecting to live through the day in the same health we started. Anything can happen in the next 20 minutes—a fall, getting hit by a car, etc. Super Storm Sandy was more predictable because there are weather patterns, and global warming made such a storm even more probable.
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The universe is random except when there are patterns.
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You might like this short video:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ
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and this variation:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_AiV12XBbI

Religion is like your operating system, processing data and information through routines and subroutines.  A good operating system handles information efficiently.  If bugs get in, your operating system, and thence data efficiency is corrupted.  You start getting inconsistent results and error messages.
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Good clean data has the effect of enabling pristine decision making and accomplishing desired results.  That’s where you want to be.
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Again we agree—but computers get viruses because there are enough computer “wizards” who “relatively randomly” create and initiate viruses into the World Wide Web.
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Where is the “clean data” that is the basis for the existence of a god? Current scientific data show no effect on universal randomness OR universal patterns that occur without intelligence.

Joseph Campbell, the world-reknown expert on mythology was asked once: Do you believe or don’t you believe in God?  His answer was, “It would be hard to call someone who believes in as many gods as I do an atheist.”

There is so much evidence of God, Nuala - throughout history, and in current times - scientific though they may be.  Even things that pass for science these days have a distincly religious flavor.  Materialism, for instance, has taken its place among the worlds great religions, displacing Buddhism and Hinduism for third place.

Whether that constitutes “proof” depends on your heuristic.  To my mind, so many people in fundamental agreement can’t be all wrong.  In fact, if you go by statistics alone, materialists are the fringe group.  Maybe they are engaged in a “creative denial” of God.  That might make sense if the values of materialism were in direct conflict with traditional religious values.  It would be a political thing: eradicate the competition by denying their existence.

But if materialists win this political struggle, you can be sure of one thing: the materialist dogma will become as strict and unforgiving as any puritanism.  All talk about “freedom” will end.

I’m putting my money on the much more realistic possibility that God will prevail.  It makes better sense, and far superior drama.

History only tells of the behavior of people. For a long time, people believed in gods. We are now in a period where more and more people are thinking from themselves.
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How do you figure that God is the “much more realistic possibility?” Just because you were told to?
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Tell me—
assuming you are married, and I told you your wife is being unfaithful to you, would you believe me? How probable is it that I would know she is unfaithful when I’ve never even seen her?
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Would you call a lawyer if a group of other Catholics told you she was unfaithful because the Bible says that’s how God made Woman?
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Anyway, I’m not Joseph Campbell. I read about other gods, but I don’t believe in any of them. So, all you’re telling me is that you refuse to deal with me any longer.
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And, like it or not, while you are living on this planet in this universe you are a materialist. You can’t always get what you want.

I’ll grant you the point if you can tell me how to derive the integral theorum, or explain Einstein’s theory of relativity and how it works, or explain the inner workings of the computer you’re typing on, beyond “I push the on button.”  Do you check out your car engine before you drive to work?  Could you even do the simplest repairs?  And when you get on an airplane, are you flying it, navigating it, or maintaining it?

There’s a lot more to your faith than you even understand.  And a lot less.  Peace

Matt B—why do you demand that I should be a genius? Are you one?
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How is your belief in God related to whether you can do simple car repairs?
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In short—WTF?!?

These are hardly “genius” level tasks.  Most kids in a good high school can do the first 3.  If you are a “hands on” type, I included some basic things that interest handy teenagers.  I was wondering if your boast about the power of rational thought had anything to do with something you accomplished, or was “Just because you were told?”  Fashions come and go, but fashionistas are generally all the same: intellectuals only in name.  Regarding the “airplane” analogy, if you’re going to fly across the atlantic on the mothership “reason,” you ought to be prepared to do some actual reasoning.  TTF(N).  Ray

Still, WTF?!?
Why are YOU demanding that I perform these tasks? What is the point of getting me to jump through your hoops? Even if I can’t answer your demands off the top of my head, they’re easy to look up. So what is your point?
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I can’t make out any of your analogies—airplanes, fashionistas, or whatever. I never bought those ideas up. I’m totally confused by what you mean.
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What does anything in your reply have to do with “faith?”
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Tell me directly what you think I should be doing for you an why. Your last two replies make no sense to me.

*MIX AND MATCH SUNDAY*

“The universe is random except when there are patterns.”

- I’m putting my money on the much more realistic possibility that God will prevail.

“History only tells of the behavior of people.”

- Fashions come and go, but fashionistas are generally all the same: intellectuals only in name.

“You can’t always get what you want.”

- Do you check out your car engine before you drive to work?

“They also condemn people when that don’t act by Catholic doctrines—like voting for Obama.”

- To my mind, so many people in fundamental agreement can’t be all wrong.

“Tell me directly what you think I should be doing for you an why.”

- you ought to be prepared to do some actual reasoning. 

“Tell me—
assuming you are married, and I told you your wife is being unfaithful to you, would you believe me?”

There’s a lot more to your faith than you even understand.  And a lot less.  Peace

“Your last two replies make no sense to me.”

- The probability of forcasting a random occurrence contingent on an infinite number of precedents unthinkably remote is hyperastronomical.

“Matt B—Those are pretty words, but you are presenting a false dichotomy.”

- It comes down to inchoate babbling, or ecstatic song.

“What does anything in your reply have to do with “faith?”

When choosing religions, you have to imagine you’re shopping for a computer.  First of all the hardware is your heart and mind.  You’ll want a lot of capacity, with the option to add on.  Some of this is “hard-wired,” but some you have the ability to increase.

“Would you call a lawyer if a group of other Catholics told you she was unfaithful because the Bible says that’s how God made Woman?”

- TTF(N).  Ray

Ok, nice summary—what’s your point?
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Are you loosing your marbles?

Just because a word ends with “-ism” doesn’t make it a religion. Vocabulary isn’t your forte, is it?

Well, Matt B, I guess you just left this thread.
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Mark, I’ll check back from time to time for a while.

Nuala, I kind of devolved into real life for a moment, please pardon me for taking my eye off the virtual ball.  However, my feeling is that we’ve pretty much covered all the bases?  I hope I’ve understood you, but in fact we don’t agree.  I also shy away from outright vulgarity, even in conversation, so your abbreviated curse worlds turned me off as well.  The reason I’m back is to cut off the conversation in more of a respectful way.  During our exchange I’ve tried my best to portray the sublimity of faith over doubt, but as they say: the proof of the pudding is in the mix.  If you don’t take a taste, no amount of verbiage will convince you.  I love you,

I’ll grant you the point if you can tell me how to derive the integral theorum, or explain Einstein’s theory of relativity and how it works, or explain the inner workings of the computer you’re typing on, beyond “I push the on button.”  Do you check out your car engine before you drive to work?  Could you even do the simplest repairs?  And when you get on an airplane, are you flying it, navigating it, or maintaining it?
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So all that comment was you “devolved into real life?” Sorry you don’t like my “abbreviated curse words,” but maybe they shocked you back into your unreal mode. I only use those words to shock in expressing when I’m totally baffled, and you questions made no sense to me.
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I’m happy to cut it off here, if that’s what you want—but we’re still in a stalemate. I still don’t understand why I should believe in any gods.
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Cheers!

Nuala, Please accept my apology for the extended recess. If you don’t mind, I’ll pick up where you and I left off. Granting your assumption that there is a 0.001% chance that the universe has a purpose and God exists (I assume you don’t mind my capitalizing the word, but I don’t expect you to do so.), I’ll try to rephrase what I think you are saying. These patterns that you speak of (e.g., Gravity, electromagnetism and natural selection) belong to the 0.001% of the universe that is not governed by randomness, i.e., these phenomena are purposeful, that is, ordered and logical. Your next sentence, though, has me confused. I think you are saying that these very reliable patterns can be disrupted by such random phenomena as earthquake, asteroid or weakening of the magnetic field. But aren’t these physical phenomena also governed by the same patterns? If they are, then I guess they aren’t really random, are they? If they are not governed by the kinds of patterns you mentioned, and are truly random, that is, they do not adhere to the ordered patterns, can you point me to the person who has discovered this and explained the phenomenon? Something about this isn’t making sense to me.
  As to your comment that I would only loose my sense of direction without belief in God, you are correct. Each of us needs a sense of direction from somewhere, atheist or believer, and each of us strives to find it again when it is lost. But a sense of direction can be mistaken or true. If there is such a thing as a destination, then a way to reach it also exists. The challenge is to find the true path leading to the ultimate destination.

Mark—
I’m glad you came back, as my reasons for being here are not just to criticize or be nasty, but also to be understood. So many people here seem to believe I’m unhappy/bad because I don’t “have God/Jesus in my life,” and/or think I want to destroy their faith. I want open discourse where both sides can learn from one another and hopefully realize that we have more in common and neither side is “the enemy.”
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I think you are saying that these very reliable patterns can be disrupted by such random phenomena as earthquake, asteroid or weakening of the magnetic field. But aren’t these physical phenomena also governed by the same patterns?
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All phenomena is governed by physics. Admittedly, science does not know everything about physics—dark matter and dark energy are just to unsolved phenomena.
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The randomness is that patterns interfere with other patterns. You live your life day-to-day and wake up in the morning expecting the relatively same experiences.
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For example: A person can be diagnosed with a cancer that at the time is believed to be incurable. Then there may be a discovery of a treatment/cure for that cancer (scientists are working with the patterns of cancer cells to determine how to interrupt cancer patterns). The patient may be eligible for trials of the new treatment/cure, and it may be successful against previous odds that the cancer was incurable.
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So, the pattern of a malignant neoplasm can be disrupted by the pattern of scientific research, which in turn develops a pattern to treat/cure the cancer.
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Later, when the cancer is cured, and the patient leaves the hospital no longer needing any more treatments, s/he can get killed by a junkie as s/he leaves a bank.
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Everybody and everything is manifested by its particular pattern, but they randomly collide and the collisions are another pattern—usually destruction but sometimes as syntheses.
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You never know which patterns will collide and when they will collide. Some things can be predicted (e.g. an oncoming asteroid can be detected by modern scientific observation), but many things are still random, and experience has shown that one thing or another will eventually cause our demise.
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I can’t point to any one person/group as to who discovered and explained this concept. It is the general conclusion of observations by many people over a long period of time.
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I could refer to Occam’s Razor, which says that the least complicated explanation should be preferred. There has been no evidence of a god or purpose for the universe and our existence that has not been disproved. Religion just tells us that “God is mysterious” or “we don’t have the capacity to understand God’s purpose.”
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Personally, I resent that most religions tell you not to ask questions, and do what they tell you, or you are “wrong.”

But a sense of direction can be mistaken or true. If there is such a thing as a destination, then a way to reach it also exists. The challenge is to find the true path leading to the ultimate destination.
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Yes, the sense of direction can be mistaken or true, that is what I’m saying and what many people on this site seem to resent about me.
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But (this might disturb you) how do you know there is an “ultimate destination” beyond death? I don’t want to die either, but it will eventually happen, and I can’t deny it. I also think denial is unhealthy, like when an alcoholic denies that he has a problem.
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Genesis gives a lovely description of the human realization that we will die. I don’t like the concept of original sin, or the idea that a perfect “sinless” being had to suffer and die to “redeem” humanity. I don’t think most people would come to such conclusions unless it is taught to them.
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Religions also have their patterns.

On the other hand, I like Jesus Christ as an archetype of a savior. It allows people to leave the problem of mortality and address the process of living. It’s as good an anchor as anything else humans have, and we all need a sense of direction. We also need some doubt so that we can avoid the rocks.
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So, as an atheist, I have other anchors. They are not that far from Catholic and/or Biblical anchors, but I rely on human experiences to help me distinguish between good and evil and what I want to do.
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I think the most universal anchor is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I don’t think it is necessary to emulate Christ in sacrificing one’s self without purpose. I don’t buy that humanity has “fallen” and that we need “saving.”
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To speak of patterns again, there are empathy and sociopath patterns. That’s why Romney was so shocked that he lost the election.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
—-Oscar Wilde

Consider Zen.

This is way of life that lead toward impassive end, lifelong struggle to subjugate sense of self, indifferent to passing of time and tide.  Become mere receptor to swaying indifferent universe.  Merge with indifference into All.

What is moral capacity of such?  To read and emulate.  Run alongside car, be lifted.  Thence assume in one self the all, Be all in all.

Science run - ever imagining kinship with universal, All.  Mind expand with universal intellect, or so he imagine.  He own, acquire, abscond: but ever in Zen-like trance.

Ever separate from beast within: separate, disjoint.

I’m just now watching a commercial about Hallmark “Interactive Story Buddies,” a nice, computer substitute for reality.
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http://www.hallmark.com/interactive-story-buddies/?mc=T_S_G_ED_GC_ISB_GEN&gclid=CPbivebClrQCFY9DMgodaHEA-A
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Isn’t it great that technology can substitute a “soft” robot for a loving exchange? (sarcasm)
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This is way of life that lead toward impassive end, lifelong struggle to subjugate sense of self, indifferent to passing of time and tide.  Become mere receptor to swaying indifferent universe.  Merge with indifference into All.
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What is moral capacity of such?  To read and emulate.  Run alongside car, be lifted.  Thence assume in one self the all, Be all in all.
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I was going to dispute your conclusions, but the real point is that your conclusion are not relevant to your premise. What is the difference between a “God” that is impassive and whom you don’t understand and a Universe that is impassive and you don’t understand?
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Why do you have faith in a church that claims to know “God’s will” opposed to scientists who claim they have no idea that the “universe has a purpose?” How do you decide who is honest and who is not?

The only difference is the “definitions”—Scientists can ask questions of the universe that may not be answered, but religion gives answers that can never be questioned.
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The Church is just trying to make itself the ultimate pattern—-and destroy all others. Personally, I would find only one pattern boring, “Variety is the spice of life” and it’s delicious!

WOW!
After I wrote the above, I looked to YouTube for more information.
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Mark, You might find these interesting. I just found them myself, so if possible lets discuss!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syNVg8V4EQU
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBEE8Yfr3AM

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This thread is getting long and, and I might move to others. tell me—shall we find conversation on more current threads?

‘The only difference is the “definitions”—Scientists can ask questions of the universe that may not be answered, but religion gives answers that can never be questioned.’

Wow, cleverness.  But if you examine your own conclusion, you see that science and religion are not directly comparable, and are used for different but conjuct purposes.  Religion establishes certainty, while science can only prove uncertainty.  Discussions of God are used to establish existence, while scientific discussions call existence into question.  God-talk is valuative, while science is evaluative.  These run on separate, parallel tracks, are not contradictory at all, and are mutually necessary to run a train of thought. 

If your question is one of “honesty,” this is a personal characteristic which has nothing to do with abstractions.  You can and do find scientists who are religious, and religionists who are rational.  They are honest or dishonest, not according to the cast of their mind, but on account of their personal character.

In this regard, I’m not sure if you yourself are honest, but you are certainly a character.

False dichotomy indeed!

But if you examine your own conclusion, you see that science and religion are not directly comparable, and are used for different but conjuct purposes.  Religion establishes certainty, while science can only prove uncertainty.  Discussions of God are used to establish existence, while scientific discussions call existence into question.  God-talk is valuative, while science is evaluative.  These run on separate, parallel tracks, are not contradictory at all, and are mutually necessary to run a train of thought.
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I would say that science disproves certainty while it evaluates probability. In science, God is not necessary, and while there are scientists who practice religion, that is evidence of human nature, not the existence of a god. Another saying I’ve heard is “Believe in God, and look both ways before you cross the street.” The first makes you feel better, but the second is more realistic—God will not protect you from a speeding car.
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They are mutually exclusive - science demands evidence and faith (as it has been told to me many times on this site) is believe without evidence.
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We’re back to square one—how can you be certain that your religion is certain? How can you be certain that there is a god outside of what people who are promoting your religion are telling you? To me, the Church is no better than a used-car salesman. Would you just take his word or would you have an independent mechanic check the car before you buy it?
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And, why do you doubt my honesty? Do you think not believing in a god makes it easier to lie? Religion have been used to justify lying (e.g. the Vatican published the lie that condoms don’t protect against AIDS) and a lot of worse evils:
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http://www.angelfire.com/ms/domviol/bible.html

Religion is a set of practices that support a belief.  As such it is either effective or ineffective.  Truth enters in only as an element of the transparency between outward actions and inward dispositions.  Your use of the words “certainty, evidence and belief” departs materially from my understanding of these concepts, and their general practice.

Belief is not necessarily certain, but certainly necessary.  You relegate this usefulness to pandering and venality.  Be careful how you measure, because the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.  Most even casual believers find religion useful, informative and relevant.  Contrast that to the findings at CERN.

I don’t doubt your honesty, Nuala.  I doubt your very existence.  You are like a problematic figure in astrophysics: a dark patch of far distant outer space that seems empty, but sporadically emits a rash and deadly spate of poisonous electromagnetic energy.  Do you really exist?  Or are you just an emanation of the Spar Nebula?

But what I really want to know is how you manage to format your comments, and is there a way to include clipart as well?

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”—Seneca the Younger
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Belief is not necessarily certain, but certainly necessary.
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Why is belief without evidence necessary? I’m living without it.
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I don’t doubt your honesty, Nuala.  I doubt your very existence.  You are like a problematic figure in astrophysics: a dark patch of far distant outer space that seems empty, but sporadically emits a rash and deadly spate of poisonous electromagnetic energy.  Do you really exist?  Or are you just an emanation of the Spar Nebula?
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Are you “devolving into real life” again?
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But what I really want to know is how you manage to format your comments, and is there a way to include clipart as well?
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Why take instruction from some one who doesn’t exist? You have a computer and access to the internet—look it up.

You believe in a lot of things, every day.  Or you wouldn’t drive your car to work, vote for Obama, or invest in a 401K.  I forgot, the positive results you receive from these actions are just liklihoods that emerge from a sea of randomness like the laws of probability.

Yet even if this is true on a macro level, and there are swirling red spots of reliability in a gaseous planet of doubt, how do you approach a lack of certainty on a personal, downside-up level?  How do you know the gastroenterologist you use to perform your colonoscopy is not loopy, or the person at the gas station is qualified to give you a flu shot?

The world rests on justifiable faith and confirmation like a giant turtle.  Every story ever spoken or written depends on “willing suspension of disbelief.”  Every child has believed in Santa Claus, and has been bitterly disillusioned to discover that Santa doesn’t reside at the North Pole, but in a bowl at the nurse’s office at school.  Lack of faith is a personal and communal malady that afflicts us like a tree blight.  TIMBER!!

Doubt you manifest and display is like a man who raises up his shirt sleeve at the office to uncover a glowing green spot of leprosy to the curious but appalled women at the water cooler.  OOH!!  AHH!!  YUCK!!!  You think you’re scoring points, but you’re really out of luck.

I’m just now watching the news about the mass school shooting in Connecticut. It’s not a good time to argue about this, but this is the kind of randomness that proves there is no god.
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/14/school-shooting-connecticut/1769367/
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As I am human, let alone a parent, aunt, neighbor, how can I believe in a divine, benevolent, omnipotent intelligence who would let this happen?

@Nuala and everyone, In light of the news, I would appreciate it if we could let this conversation go for a while.  So many people are suffering terrible grief over what has happened, and may not want to keep getting comments in their inboxes.  It is far, far too soon to start using the deaths of innocent children as an arguing point (and that goes for either side, not just atheists).  Thanks.

OK, I’m gone. I was just expressing despair for the evil in this world.

Nuala, at the risk of overstepping Simcha, I have to agree with you that the recent tragic events give ample evidence of what happens when we ignore, disregard, contemn and discountenance one very powerful and angry God.  I thank you for your views on these matters, which I have found helpful and enlightening.  I reiterate my final assertion at:

“Posted by Matt B on Tuesday, Dec 11, 2012 4:53 PM (EDT)”

Matt B—Go to Mark Shea’s blog for my comments.