Oh come on now Simcha, tell us how you REALLY feel!! ; )

Whooo-wheee, doggies, Simcha.  Strongly worded, for sure.  Can’t say I disagree with anything you said, buuuut…. I’ll be coming back to check the comments later because I’m, er, interested to see the feedback.

Good on you for speaking up.

Almost everything you write strikes me as so obvious and reasonable that I am continually amazed that I never saw it before! Wonderful. Brava!

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I love you, Simcha. And I love the Holy Spirit for constantly inspiring you.

I just sent this article to my pro-choice husband. I pray it will make him really think and consider what he’s supporting. We’ll see what, if anything, he says. He usually doesn’t respond to anything I send him.

Simcha, you are way behind the times. Don’t you understand postmodernism?
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Truth is merely a social construct. Truth is dependent on the experience of the individual.
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What this means is that we can create our own truth. No longer do we have to be troubled by holding completely contradictory beliefs, like being Catholic and being pro-choice. Thanks to postmodernism, we can hold both beliefs at once and be confident that we have the truth.
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Some may say this is illogical or irrational, but logic and reason are just social constructs too. Designed by the powerful to oppress the people.
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And if someone argues with us, then that’s extremely rude! How DARE they criticize MY truth! They have their own truth.

Simcha, whatever you are drinking these days I’ll take a gallon. Piss and vinegar are quite a cocktail.

How does a post like this further the dialogue and healing that is needed surrounding this issue? I have a hard time believing that a rather arrogantly written post like this can come off as charitable or even as a chance for conversion for those Catholics that may think differently than you. If the goal is love of neighbor and ultimately conversion, posts like this will never achieve that goal. You’ve managed to write something that allows yourself to pat yourself nicely on the back while avoiding all the tough dialogue, pain, and healing that needs to accompany such a serious issue as this.

@Kevin,
Just like a hysterical person sometimes needs a faceful of water or a slap to make them stop screaming long enough to step back, reassess and get ahold of themselves….entrenched pro-choice Catholics need a slap like this to try and get them to stop in their tracks and look at what they’re saying and doing.

It may not reach everyone, Kevin, and you’re right:  there are surely many people who need to hear something different from this—something more compassionate and measured. 

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But there are many others who never hear anything BUT “dialogue.” They never hear, for instance, that receiving communion while supporting abortion is a mortal sin.  They never come across Catholics who really do believe that abortion is always wrong. 

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It’s damaging and counterproductive for pro-lifers to do nothing but preach and harangue; but it’s equally wrong for us to do nothing but hang back and hold our fire.  People need to hear, at least occasionally, that the phrase “pro-choice Catholic” is a phrase straight from Hell.  Some people literally do not realize that this is true, because they’ve never heard anyone say so.

I would like to add that one must be in the state of grace before receiving Holy Communion.  Therefore the need for regular Confession.

Excellent post. The most effective way of spreading the truth sometimes is to bluntly reveal the inconsistency of certain mindsets.

Apparently I am arrogant as well, because all I can say is Amen, and thanks for putting the truth in writing.  Every one of us will have to explain ourselves in the end, and God makes the final decision about our eternity, not us.

Rock on, Simcha.  Written very creatively, outside the box.  @ Kevin, I know what you are saying but some people don’t respond when spoken to gently and in a way that doesn’t offend.  Frankly, my conversion on contraception (in my younger days, I said I agreed with the Church on everything EXCEPT contraception) didn’t come from people kindly pointing out the truth.  Didn’t even come when a co-worker said that I was wrong for saying that.  Nope, it came from one line in a fictional Catholic book.  One line that laid it all out that I was beholden to Satan and headed to hell if I didn’t convert.  And the scales fell, the dam burst and it was an instantaneous conversion.  So maybe some would read this and write Simcha off.  But I would bet some others may just find a scale or two fall from their eyes and they begin to see just a tad bit more clearly.  So, again, rock on Simcha!

Excellent post that tells it like it is - which is what *some* people really need to hear/read, more than the kid-glove treatment they often get regarding such matters! Love this, Simcha!

I don’t mean to suggest that people who follow the church’s teachings (as I try to follow them myself!) are arrogant. I’m suggesting that the issue deserves much more thoughtful and charitable dialogue. I doubt that many who disagree with the author’s viewpoint would be convinced by or would even engage the author when the spirit of the writing lacks any pretense of dialogue or compassion. That’s just the way I read it. Couldn’t the movement be served better be a less divisive tone and posture? That’s my inclination.

@Kevin - I think there are different breeds of pro-choice Catholics.  Some have lived lives of comfort and self indulgence and need this jolt to be shaken from their intellectual pedestals.  They ignore this advice or laugh at it at their own peril.  Others have been so wounded, from physical or sexual abuse or from emotional or physical deprivation, that they’ve already lived through a private hell and have difficulty believing in the promise of Heaven.  (Being both from and marrying into another large, pro-life Catholic family, I know too well that abuse and deprivation are rampant in our culture).  These poor souls remind me of O-Lan in the Good Earth who suffocated her baby during a time of great hardship.  They need emotional and spiritual healing.  I don’t know the best way to show them the Love of Christ - I’m sure it depends upon the person.  And some may well respond to this approach.

Oh, good grief. I respect the logic here, but this article will convert no one. There’s plenty of pro-choice articles just as angry on the opposite side. You’re not really reaching pro-choice Catholics who take the Eucharist. You’re just preaching to your own crowd. Yes, praise Simcha for being as vulgar and ticked as the “other guys.”

definately something worth getting upset and blunt about.  people are so emotionally weak anymore, we have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending anybody!! thanks for having it in your guts to spill. the only ones who will lash out at you for this post are the guilty ones.

Brava, Simcha—as always.  The last point made me howl with laughter!  Plus, you raise a good point about being compassionate and measured and willing to engage in “dialogue”:  if that compassion and measure does not speak the truth, it is not compassionate, and dialogue will really get us nowhere;  for one, it’ll be meaningless.  Also, as per your piece in general, I do notice that dumbing things down such that people hear nothing but dialogue tends to do two things: 1) convince people that something is small peanuts and inconsequential, whereby 2) they then have an excuse not to give a crap.

I don’t know if anyone’s noticed this, but I think this is also related:  there’s a very real tendency for dissenters to use the words “MY” Catholic faith, usually when it comes to something that the Church teaches that is difficult or when they want to argue for something that is opposed to Church teaching.  The thing is, is it really “your” Catholic faith or “my” Catholic faith or the Catholic faith, i.e. the faith of the whole Church throughout all ages?  Perhaps we all need to watch that one:  that yeah, there are as many paths to holiness as there are people, but it is simultaneously true that the Way, the Truth, and the Life is handed down to us and is indeed broad and deep enough to encompass and sanctify those individual paths.  This is not something we discern for ourselves.

Very impressive article; few people these days have the courage to be so bold.  Then I read the comments and it makes me curious as to why so many people think telling the truth is ‘arrogant’ and that ‘kindness and compassion’ can be found in pretending that the road to Hell is a fine path to follow.  If I love you, shouldn’t I be screaming my lungs out to get you off that road which leads to your own damnation?  Funny kind of compassion that won’t even raise it’s voice in the face of eternal danger.

Wow! You articulate everything that I feel in my heart but can’t say or write bc I am not talented enough. Thank you for not holding back. I think the worst thing for a catholic to do is to voice their disagreement with the church. I have some reservations about the whole rosary thing and my husband is not sold on confession. We are working on aligning ourselves completely with the church. But we would NEVER encourage someone else to disagree with church teaching, including our own children.We keep it to ourselves.  I am teaching my girls the rosary even though I am not really comfortable with it. I won’t lead others down the wrong path. I just got confirmed this past easter, and catholics ( catholics who have been in the church their whole life) told me ( while i was going through the RCIA process) that they think birth control and abortion is o.k and the church is outdated in their thinking and the church doesn’t understand the “real world” I need you to write about this stuff, because I’m not getting it from my church or the catholics in my physical world. This blog and NCR has been the reason I became interested in the Catholic faith. thank you again and keep it up!

40 million have been snuffed and infants right now are having their brains sucked out…pardon me for being ‘angry’.
If Catholics voted the way we are supposed to - putting life first - abortion would have been abolished years ago - but it is our failing, the blood is on our hands, it is our responsibility to stand up against this great evil and we blow it election after election.  The gloves off for a long time now…when people tell me that they can be Catholic and be pro-choice, I tell them they will burn in hell. Sometimes people need a kick to the head.

A human being begins at conception.  Period.  Regardless of how one was conceived (unwanted, unexpected, etc.)  Someone mentioned compassion for those that are prochoice.  Prayer is what these prochoice individuals need and compassion should be for those unborn human beings.  How does one delicately argue for the protection of human beings and why are prolife people always described as preaching?  These are human beings and they are being killed.  Pray for the unborn and for those considering abortion.

Awesome post!

To those who are objecting to Simcha’s colorful style I say: there are plenty of sincere and gentle articles out there if you prefer to receive your truth that way. Perhaps you have not read anything by Simcha before? She is a pistol! That’s why we love her so much.

God gave her a gift of humor and she is kind enough to share it with us. Thank you Simcha!

@Kevin: It would be interesting and informative to me to have you rewrite this post in a more charitable way. I am honestly curious. What would that look like? Or, even easier, how would you communicate these truths in a clear and charitable way?

T. S. Eliot said that modern people do not like the church because “she is tender where they would be hard, and hard where they like to be soft.”
“Choruses from the ‘Rock,’”
Sometimes it works that way for blogs, too.
Everyone has a different voice, different gifts.

We must daily pray for “Holy Boldness” to support and defend the Faith that we love. There is a time for gentle dialogue, but also a time for speaking the Truth, abrasive as it may seem. Christ did not sit down and gently talk with the money changers in the temple…thank you Simcha for this post!

We’ve got 2 different “Kathleen”‘s again. I’m gonna have to change my username…..
:)

@Dan: Great idea!

@Mary II: Just out of curiosity, how do those people respond when you say that?

I’m absolutely loving this discussion.

You inspire me. You are always so bold and unafraid to speak the truth. Awesome!

Good one:

“The God of the pro-choice Catholic says, ‘I will tell you a thousand times that this world is passing away, and that what you do here only matters because of how it prepares you for eternity.  The joys and sorrows of this world are fleeting, but your soul is immortal, and your body will be resurrected, to live out your salvation or your damnation eternally, according to the choices you make here and now.  But don’t go to any trouble.  Be practical.  Eternity will sort itself out somehow, I’m sure.’”

But of course it’s not just pro-choice Catholics who worship this idiot God. It’s pretty much every Christian this raised-Catholic atheist ever met. In the supposed face of eternity they still demonstrate that they have higher priorities for how they use their time, energy and resources. For a significant number the highest priority seems to be obsessing over OTHER people’s sexual sins, and trying to manipulate the law of the land to forestall these sins. For most, it’s just getting on with obtaining the good things in an American middle-class life—a good education so one can start a successful business or get a good job that provides good medical insurance and vacation time to attract a good mate, so one can raise a nice family in a nice house with nice cars
and plan a comfortable retirement, and enable one’s children to repeat the cycle.

As a materialist, I share those middle-class goals, so my description of those goals is not meant to be insulting or reductive—just realistic. My point is that pro-choice Catholics are no more illogical than the vast majority of Christians who don’t really act as though the point of life is to determine how they spend eternity. They want non-interfering religious ritual for comfort on the fringes of a life that is following a materialistic arc.

Some may be reassured by having a few rules that inflict mild sacrifices and remind them how much they’re giving up for their God (therefore they deserve salvation), such as mandatory Mass on Sunday and meatless Fridays. It’s my opinion that this is why many Catholics freaked out when Vatican II changed the Church law requiring a meatless Friday. They were dismayed and thrown off balance by the loss of such a cheap way to earn points with God. For others it merely confirmed that God just wants us to be happy and not be reigned in by arbitrary rules such as those making us get up early for Sunday mass, or refrain from using HBC.

Why is it any more surprising that some Catholics ignore Church teaching on sbortion than that the majority of self-professed Catholics ignore the plain Church law requiring attendance at Sunday mass? The last I heard, either behavior put a Catholic into a state of mortal sin. Why is it more idiotic to ignore one mortal sin than another?  Theoretically, either way one is damned. As I see it, the problem for the Church is that the whole theory has been rejected. Pro-choice Catholics are not especially scandalous in their rejection.

I would submit that when Jesus turned over tables & rebuked the money changers He did so with pure charity.  Thank you Simcha for doing the same!

The Devil will always refer to himself as a god. Pro-Choice Christians are actually worshipping the devil.

I’m not sure “idiot” is the word which best describes the reasoning of this fictional god. “Milksop” would seem to be a much more apt term as his reasoning expressed here seems to be more ineffectual than that of a mentally disabled person.

Love it, Simcha. It baffles me when pro-abortion Catholics can’t see the cognitive dissonance in their lives.
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cowalker, meatless Fridays are a discipline, not a doctrine. Also, they weren’t eliminated—the Church merely said that Catholics could choose a sacrifice *other than meat* to fulfill their penance. The obligation for penance still remains and always has. (You also need to research the meaning of penance if you think it is “scoring points with God.”)
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And even missing Mass on Sunday isn’t a mortal sin unless you’re doing it consciously and deliberately to blow off God, with the intention of giving Him the middle finger. If I stay home with my puking baby on Sunday, neither God nor the Church will condemn me for that. (In fact, my priest will thank me for staying home!)
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If you’re going to object to Church teaching, fine - but please take issue with what the Church ACTUALLY teaches and not what you THINK it teaches.

“One of the effects of modern liberal Protestantism has been gradually to turn religion into poetry and therapy, to make truth vaguer and vaguer and more and more relative, to banish intellectual distinctions, to depend on feeling instead of thought, and gradually to come to believe that God has no power, that he cannot communicate with us, cannot reveal himself to us, indeed has not done so, and that religion is our own sweet invention.”
Flannery O’Connor

You know, John the Baptist got put in prison for telling Herod LIKE IT WAS.  No sugar-coating, no dialogue, just the TRUTH.  And sometimes, people need to hear the truth.  And sometimes, it’s good for US to speak the truth.  It’s cathartic. 

I do this sometimes with my hubby…I’ll tell him, “I know that you believe all this, but sometimes I just have to GET IT OUT.”  Especially when it comes to babies…the TRUTH of the AWFULNESS of abortion is UGLY and we don’t like to think about it, but every now and then you want to SCREAM and say “Don’t you know what you are supporting????  Murdered babies!!”

See, now I feel better. 

Keep it up, Simcha.

Simcha, thank you for these “hard to hear” words of God’s Wisdom.
Num 6 (NABRE)
[24] The LORD bless you and keep you!
[25] The LORD let his face shine upon you, and be gracious to you!
[26] The LORD look upon you kindly and give you peace!*

+++ +++ +++
Luke 11:52
[52] Woe to you, scholars of the law! You have taken away the key of knowledge. You yourselves did not enter and you stopped those trying to enter.”

Acts 4
[17] But so that it may not be spread any further among the people, let us give them a stern warning never again to speak to anyone in this name.”
[18] So they called them back and ordered them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. [19] Peter and John, however, said to them in reply, “Whether it is right in the sight of God for us to obey you rather than God, you be the judges. [20] It is impossible for us not to speak about what we have seen and heard.”

Isaiah 5
[20] Ah! Those who call evil good, and good evil,
who change darkness to light, and light into darkness,
who change bitter to sweet, and sweet into bitter!
[21] Ah! Those who are wise in their own eyes,
prudent in their own view!

I am really coming to hate the word “dialogue”. Mainly because “dialoguing” with pro-choice Catholic gets NOWHERE. You really think Jesus would “dialogue” with someone who silently allows abortion to go on all around them? What would John the Baptist say about this?

We have to be sensitive to when and where we speak the truth and how we do it. But for Simcha, on this blog, YES it IS the place to speak the truth. God bless you Simcha. Keep it up!

The Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ, holy and unblemished, spotless.  Unchangeable because God is unchangeable.  For Catholic Christians, baptized into the one, holy, catholic and apotolic church, we must be taught what that means.  We must beg God for His Mercy on our brothers and sisters who have been blinded by secularism and do not see with their blind eyes the wonder and beauty of Jesus Christ and His Bride, the Church.  Faithful Catholics, by our baptsim and confirmation, are called to be “the salt of the earth and the light of the world.”  Thank you Simcha for being salt and light with your articles…..continue to shine in the darkness.  We all need to pray for our fallen away brothers and sisters, the “lost sheep”, praying they truly “see” our loving Lord, Jesus, on that tree of life, bloody and crucified for ALL our sins, because Jesus waits longingly for them to repent.  He is searching them out, waiting to bind up their wounds and carry them on His shoulders, back to the flock. 

Trust in the Lord for He is good, His Mercy endures forever.
PAX!!

Simcha, have I told you before that you’re my hero?

Simcha may be preaching to the choir, but sometimes the choir needs a fire lit under its collective butt.

@Kevin:

Sometimes, the answer to “What Would Jesus Do” is “Get a whip, trash the place, and ‘dialogue’ be damned.”  Bravo Simcha!

Brilliant writing Simcha. Thank you.

This all reminds me of something a friend posted on Facebook last week.  It basically said that when people ask you “what would Jesus do?” to remind them that flipping tables and freaking out is a viable option.  Sometimes we need to flip some tables.  Nobody’s going to like that much, especially the folks who have their own version of “Truth” laid out on the tables in neat little rows.  But strong words and actions might be the only way to reach some people with the real Truth.  There may be one or two who thank you later.

I love you all!!! Thanks for waking me up this morning and giving me some good belly laughs!  God has a direct line to Simcha.  If only I was so worthy.  Thank you.

Posted by JoAnna on Tuesday, Oct 2, 2012 9:20 AM (EST):

“cowalker, meatless Fridays are a discipline, not a doctrine. Also, they weren’t eliminated—the Church merely said that Catholics could choose a sacrifice *other than meat* to fulfill their penance. The obligation for penance still remains and always has. (You also need to research the meaning of penance if you think it is ‘scoring points with God.’) 

“And even missing Mass on Sunday isn’t a mortal sin unless you’re doing it consciously and deliberately to blow off God . . . ”

JoAnna, I understand the distinctions you’re making, and the concept of penance. My point is that most Catholics did not understand this in the sixties, and they still don’t. And they don’t care about learning the distinctions, which allows them to feel free to follow their own consciences and still call themselves Catholic.

Do you think that the many self-professed Catholics who have disappeared from the pews on Sundays since the sixties are all at home with sick babies, or for some comparably serious reason? My point is, they no longer feel obliged on pain of mortal sin to endure the minor inconvenience of attending Sumday mass. Why is this? Why do they feel free to dismiss this Church law, just as pro-choice Catholics feel free to dismiss Church doctrine on abortion?

That is the crux of the problem—some self-professed Catholics ignore some particular doctrines, laws or disciplines. Others ignore different ones. Why do none of them shiver in fear for their souls? The God of one is no more idiotic or self-contradictory than the other.

Just one nitpick about an otherwise great article. The pro-choice god should always be referred to with a lower case g; the God of life always gets an upper case G.

Keep up the great work!

Simcha, your use of the word ‘idiot’ reminded me of the great line the movie ‘Avengers’ when the Hulk called the broken fallen angel: ‘puny god’. funny. accurate.

Simcha,

and Jesus said ‘don’t judge’!

Jesus changed hearts and minds with love, forgiveness and compassion.

Harsh words merely create greater opposition and division.

We as Catholics need a good wake up call on certain issues we all face today.  Thank you Simcha, great article.

Look at it this way too: let’s pretend that you are having this discussion IN PERSON after mass. You meet someone for the first time and this issue comes up and you want to tell them how you feel about it. Are the first words that come out of your mouth really going to be words that condemn that person to hell? Are you really going to say that? Where does that get you? I feel that the Internet too often allows people with very important opinions and values to use the impersonal platform as a way to condemn people who do not believe what they already know to be right.

Maybe that’s just the nature of the society we live in where discussion happens via this medium. I can’t help but think there’s a better approach. A more personal one. One that invoked friendship, care, and love before it invokes wrath and condemnation. To each there own style but I don’t think it’s usually the right and most pastoral approach.

“Dialogue”?  Has you ever tried to “dialogue” with a rebellious teenager who simply tunes you out.  Then when they choose to “dialogue” they are belligerant and totally illogical? You might get somewhere eventually, once the kid learns the hard way and decides to “grow up”. But these “pro-choice Catholics” have chosen to remain teenagers for 40 years? How long do we continue this “dialoguing?”  Thank you Simcha for calling a spade, a spade.

I have found in “dialogue” that, short of a miracle, these pro-choice Catholics are irretrievably lost.  They have a misplaced sense of compassion.  They care about union workers getting only a 2% pay increase versus 3% but nothing about an unborn child’s life.  After all, that 1% is vital because it will let us buy more electonic junk for our kids.  It doesn’t matter what you say to them, they will go right on supporting politicians who have given us 54 million dead unborn children since 1973.  Why lets facts and reason get in the way?  Besaied, when you already know it all, you can’t be taught.  Yes, sometimes people do need cold water splashed in their faces because all other efforts have failed.  Good article.

Kevin, regarding your post about meeting someone for the first time after mass.  That is not the situation Simcha is talking about.  I am sure she is sensitive enough to know that each situation demands consideration.  Rather, she is talking about “pro-choice catholics” and their rhetoric as a whole.  Give her some credit.

Kevin, 40 years ago, 30 years ago or even 20 years ago, I would’ve agreed with you. Since there are now ~55 million dead kids in this country alone, I don’t agree with you anymore. Sometimes the best way to tell people that the building’s on fire is to yell “Fire.”

“further the dialogue and healing that is needed surrounding this issue?”
- I think the Pharisees should have used this line on Jesus too when he launched into one of his many tirades against them for being whitewashed tombs. It totally would have taken the air RIGHT OUT of Jesus’ sails when it was shown he wasn’t healing and dialoging correctly.

“Pro-Choice catholics” do not exist…if you are pro-choice then by definition you are NOT Catholic….

Prochoice catholics are not irretrievably lost.  How arrogant.  Now you are God himself?

I am Catholic and I am not prochoice.  However, I do understand where they are coming from.  We live in a society that abhors motherhood, caters to sex and degrades women at every turn.  Being prochoice is a way of saying “I do not want to degrade women.”  A poor way of saying it, for sure, but a way, nevertheless.

A better response to prochoice Catholics is to teach your sons to respect women, not to abuse their office as head of the household, that abstinance, even in marriage, is love.  If our sons did all of these things, there would be no need for prochoice anything.

A little bit of Grace goes a long way.

Amen, Simcha! You rock!

At first, I was in shock. But after letting it sink in, that is what these HUMANS are saying! THEY are saying that THEY are wiser than God Almighty. And though I would have non capatalized the ‘G’ in the pro-‘Choice’ g-d, & may have placed more emphasis on HUMAN, believing they are above God in knowledge. You are brutally accurate w/ what these people are saying, when they declare support for the genocide of our most innocent & precious of gifts.

Lately people tip toe around hot topics out of fear of offending. They argue (as a group of, so called, ‘Catholic’ nuns) that"we’re in the 21st century, have we not moved passed dictatorships!”. I say, no! God is the ONLY dictatorship that is, obviously, permissible! Just like parents are a dictator over their children. God created all, He has Love & Understanding that NO human can even pretend to understand! He creates life, & loves ALL life. He set up His church in a way that He knew would protect His words. There is no debate! God set out laws, & claiming ignorance, or deciding you know a better way, will NOT be a debate you will be able to have when judgement comes!

Totally unrelated, but since I have your attention ... If the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the source and summit of our faith, why do some of us continue to refer to it as ‘mass’ - (lower-case ‘m’)?? The word, ‘mass’ is a unit of measurement. ‘Mass,’ with a capital ‘M,’ is where we meet our LORD - body, blood, soul, and divinity - in the Eucharist. Nit-picky? Perhaps. :-) Okay, I’m done. :-) Oh, except for this: Woot, Simcha!!!!!

Oops - two “Heather"s, too. :-) I’m the one who wrote second, about the Mass.

@cowalker:  Any Catholic who approaches God with the attitude you describe (let me assuage my guilt by following some rules) has missed the call of the Gospel and the Law entirely (Repent and Believe etc., Love the Lord your God with all your Heart, Soul, Mind, Strength, and Love your Neighbor as Yourself).  Without an interior conversion of the heart, anyone calling themselves Catholic is just wasting their time.  Your concern for leaving out equal criticism for those who stay home on Sunday falls flat for me given that their lack of commitment to Christ in that choice has personal consequences for themselves, while support for pro-choice policies affects innocent babies.  Your worldview is absolutely reasonable if Jesus was not who he said he was, and remains in a tomb somewhere.  But if it is all true, then we cannot be satisfied with anything short of unity with Him.

@ Kevin, I think the challenge you posted on writing a more charitable essay is a good one—and perhaps that is your calling! Simcha’s was to enlighten—it has told you of a new need, but perhaps Simcha’s work is done, and you are to write the next chapter….

@Natasha, I applaud you for trying to conform yourself to God’s Truth instead of trying to make God conform to you (I stuggle with this too). One thing that might help you understand the rosary is Louis de Montfort’s The Secret of the Rosary. It has short chapters and really opened my eyes to the amazing gift of Mary our Mother and the rosary. I also find spending some time in adoration while reading this (or other spiritual) works is very helpful when trying to both fully understand and implement what I read. Your husband might want to spend some time in adoration too as he tries to understand the role of confession. I think you’re doing a great job!!!! God Bless you and your family.

It’s a shame that our Bishops won’t speak plainly and enforce our Canons to keep scandal out of the Church and to protect the Eucharist from those who defy Church teachings.

Simcha, 

This was a wonderful outlook on the fires that will greet the murderers of our future.  I am pro-LIFE, and cannot comprehend the mindset that believes it is OK to abort a HUMAN LIFE because one is too lazy to be bothered with raising the child THEY brought into their world. 

Thank you for having the spiritual courage to make the statements that will, hopefully, cause the pro-choice Catholics to ponder their choices.

Pam

I am still waiting for the pro-choice folks to stop offending me with dead babies… I don’t get the logic that they are supporting murder of innocents, and yelling in the streets about the right to kill, and we need to at all times remember to mind our manners and try not to hurt feelings.  Quite frankly, this is an outrage, and I AM outraged, and I am glad that not everyone is pussyfooting to evil.

@ Trebert “and Jesus said ‘don’t judge’! Jesus changed hearts and minds with love, forgiveness and compassion.”
Actually Jesus frequently used very harsh words with the Pharisees. Pro-death (choice) catholics are very similar to the Pharisees. Jesus knew that the Pharisees needed to be confronted very plainly with their sins.

Simcha - fantastic!  Thank you.

Simcha, I usually love what you write, but this is over the top.  Your argument is reductive and overly simplistic.  How can we decide for a woman whether or not she should surrender her life for her child?  Who are we to dictate the action of a woman who may be choosing to orphan her other children and widow her husband?  Surely a woman WILLING to sacrifice her life for her child is making a beautiful sacrifice, but how is a woman forced BY LAW to die against her will a testament to a life giving God?  It seems similar to throwing women into volcanoes?  Please try to embrace those who retain the Catholic identity despite the Church’s many faults a but more credit.  They must have some faith deeper than the “Me-Me-Me” voice of the secular, or they would have abandoned the Church a long time ago.

Posted by Pamela on Tuesday, Oct 2, 2012 11:28 AM (EST):
I am pro-LIFE, and cannot comprehend the mindset that believes it is OK to abort a HUMAN LIFE because one is too lazy to be bothered with raising the child THEY brought into their world. “
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I don’t comprehend that, either, but I think we have to be careful not to play into the stereotypes.Women who undergo abortions have differing issues & histories going on.Some pregnancies result from rape.Many abortions are a result of coercion of some type-either from the child’s father, other family members, society, etc.

I came across a post thru my FB feed that is so very true & ends the debate over what constitutes life. It went (minus the picture):

A single cell organism (1 pic) & a Fetus (2nd pic)

“The definition of Irony- If the Mars Rover found a single cell organism, they would quickly call it LIFE! Yet, they proclaim a Fetus as not!”

(or something like that) but so True!

There isn’t any call to be politically correct.  The Bible is quite specific.  The words pro-choice and Catholic do not go together in any sentence.

Simcha, if you truly believe that pro-choice Catholics worship a different and untrue God, then this article is both redundant and useless. As someone who at least pretends to be a devout and scholarly Catholic, you should know that several commandments also tell true believers to not convert or save idolaters, which, by your own words, you must think they are.

Of course, another commandment instructs believers not to be superstitious, and yet another not wear the garments of the opposite gender, and yet another allows for divorce, and yet another states that a rapist must marry his victim if she is unmarried.

I disagree.  I think a Pro-Choice Catholic is sort of like a Pro-Nazi Catholic, a Pro-mafia Catholic, a Pro-slavery Catholic, or a Catholic who knowingly tolerated sexual abuse and did nothing.  They understand that there is a God.  They understand that the Catholic Church is where man “interfaces” with God.  They want a relationship with that God, but at the end of the day this world is where they choose to root themselves to.  I think they should be pitied more than despised.

Sometimes the right thing to do is to proceed with great care and caution and sensitivity.
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Sometimes the right thing to do is just let ‘er rip, and let people go ahead and be offended if they want to be offended.
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I’m inclined to trust Simcha’s judgment on this one. There simply is no such thing as a “pro-choice Catholic”; and I’m not sure that soft words are the right response to folk who believe there is such a thing, and that that is what they are.
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Abortion or Catholicism: you may choose no more than one of these two. If making this crystal clear requires the application of a swinging truth-by-four, then so be it.

@June - I usually get ‘told off’ by Catholic women who don’t like my bumper sticker “you can’t be Catholic and pro-abortion” - Telling them that they will burn in hell usually ends the conversation. BTW, Simcha, this is one of the best, most creative articles I’ve read on this subject.

If you find out someone thinks it’s no big deal to drive DRUNK, you better hope and pray *someone* has the sense of duty and urgency to speak FIRMLY with them—outlining how SELFISH their behavior is. I don’t have to list the reasons why.
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How about just one—YOUR children? (Should we feel ashamed if life and death choices considering other peoples’ kids doesn’t give us a greater sense of urgency?)
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Life and death choices need some highlighter pen and exclamation points. 
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This is why we tell our kids: “We are HERE for you—Even if you’re a big enough IDIOT to get drunk—don’t be an even BIGGER IDIOT by killing someone else because of your self indulgent choices.  We’ll come pick you up anytime, anyplace, under any circumstance, no lecture.
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If it did happen, I’d wait a bit, maybe a few days, a week…find a perfect, quiet moment, and say something like: “You know those people at parties that like to get sh-t faced? 
Do people respect them for it?
Oh really?  They took cell phone pictures?  Yeah.
Facebook? Oh man, that’s really undignified.
The worst part about it is that they could also KILL themselves or someone else…
Not only that, but with every choice like these, they are killing their own soul bit by bit, molecule by molecule.  St. Paul even has a list for people who will not inherit the kingdom of heaven…Drunks, fornicators, thieves…
It’s not that God doesn’t love them, it’s that they lose their ability to love God, or God, in their neighbor…
You know what that equals?
Yeah.  Hell.
I love you too much not to confront you about this. 

I love you. And your writing style. Thank you.

I have yet to meet a “Pro Choice” Catholic or Protestant who can give me a reasoned (scriptural) defense for using artificial birth control or having an abortion.  Inevitably it always comes down to the comfort and/or material gain of the woman or couple.  The logic being that children are a burden and as Christians we are called to make the most of this life that God has given us.  What is faith if not trusting in Jesus to provide everthing we [need] regardless of how many children we have?  The Pro Life “Christian” argues that God does not want us to have more children than we can “handle”  Whenever I hear this argument I ask the person to define “more than we can handle” and the range of responses is vast to say the least.  I find it fascinating that when it comes to cooperating with God in the creation of life many Christians proclaim that God would rather we intercede on behalf of death and prevent the creation of life so that we can have a “better” life.  Invetiably their definition of a “better” life revolves around accumulating material things (nicer house, nicer car, nicer clothes etc). Where in scripture did Jesus teach to go forth, have lots of sex and do everything humanly possible to ensure we are comfortable?  Where in scripture does God teach us that our comfort and material gain is necessary to gain eternal life?  Where in scripture are we taught that children are a burden placed on dumb believers who don’t have the common sense to kill babies in the womb?  Lord have Mercy on us.

Great article. In the spirit of truth, let us start cleaning up the word “Catholic”. There are no “pro-abortion Catholics.” Just like many in our culture who are attempting to subvert the word “marriage” we must also defend the language defining our faith. In many conversations I hear “I’m Catholic but…” and then what follows is an explanation that they disagree with a substantial doctrine of the faith in order to engage in the sin that governs or compromises them. In the most compassionate way possible, we need to inform these people that they are actually Protestants who attend Mass and receive sacrilegious Holy Communion. The reaction is usually of shock at the statement, but few are able to explain how their rejection of the Catholic Church’s teachings on faith and morals is any different than Martin Luther’s. With over 30,000+ Protestant denominations, finding one that embraces their favorite flavor of sin exists, they just have to find it. For them, the Catholic Church is not their church as they readily admit in their “qualified” or “disclaimed” Catholic self-identification. Ask them to be intellectually honest, if they do not believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church…ask them to stop saying that they are Catholic and abstain from Holy Communion until they really are Catholic.

Thank you, Simcha.  This article reinforces to me that I want to be the best Catholic I can be.  That was not always the case, however.  I am not sure how I would have reacted to this message ten years ago, when I was suffering alone (or so I thought).  Now that the Grace of God has entered my life, I see clearly the truth of your message.  I just hope this article reaches those who need it. 

Abortion is Satanic when a child is aborted, several or many people commit a mortal sin and Satan wins more than the loss of one baby, but several or many souls every abortion is a victory for Satan. By the way. There is only one truth, and that is the facts of the matter. You cannot have one truth for one person and a different truth for another person that is called relativism. A woman’s body is a sacred vessel of new life, and gateway from heaven to earth to bring new souls to earth to raise them and train them and teach them to love their heavenly father and then someday return to their heavenly home. A woman’s body is not a garbage can for a man’s lust.

Simcha, This made me tear-up.  I used to think this way - I am so ashamed and remorseful. I thank God that my heart and mind opened to His way. It is never too late to mature in one’s faith.

@Kathleen - “Some pregnancies result from rape.” This is the pro-choice argument of the left. Why are children, who are innocent of the rape through which they were conceived, categorized as less valuable than others? Just because a woman is raped is no reason to kill the child, no matter how difficult the circumstances. That child may offer the very healing the woman needs and may grow up to be a great saint!

Simcha this is amazing!

My question to all of you is:  How many of you pro-life Catholics have stepped up and adopted a child out of the social service system? A child who has been neglected and/or abused by his or her parents?  It is very easy to sit on the sideline and say that no one should have an abortion but it is something different to act on that belief and take care of the children in our country who are born into a terrible home life.  I am Catholic, I am pro-choice, and I have adopted two children from county social services.  Please act on your beliefs and make a good life for all the children you want to be born. What shall ever you do the the LEAST of my brothers.

@Kevin -  Kevin, as you were typing your post an unborn baby was being cut to peices so that it’s body parts could be suctioned through a hose into a waste bin.  As you were writing your post millions of unborn babies all over the world are being starved to death in the womb because their mothers ingested chemicals that prevent them from attaching to the wall of the uterus so that they can receive life giving nutrition from their mother.  I’m sorry but I feel no compassion for “Christians” who struggle with the concept of not murdering unborn babies.  It may make you feel charitable and compasionate to defend their right to do these things but somehow I feel that the babies who were murdered while you were typing your charitable post are more in need of your compassion and charity.  Peace in Christ.

Stephanie ,
I agree with you, but I was responding to another post that referenced a stereotype of the callous woman aborting a child for reasons of inconvenience or out of laziness.Some women are brought to abortion clinics by their rapists or pimps.Some are forced into abortion the same way they were forced into sex.
All children deserve the right to live, no matter how they’re conceived, but we shouldn’t buy into stereotyping women in a degrading way.Like Feminists for Life say: “Women Deserve Better.” So do children.

Linda Quirk says, “Prochoice catholics are not irretrievably lost.  How arrogant.  Now you are God himself?”

In a mere instant, a sudden, miraculous understanding of the role our Blessed Mother played in salvation history, yanked me right out of anti-Catholic Protestantism and converted this abortion-agnostic instantaneously into a pro-life Catholic. Christ said if you lust it is the same as committing adultery or if you hate it is the same as committing murder. Adultery and murder are mortal sins therefore lust and hatred are also mortal sins that require repentance, confession and penance. So how is it that supporting the murder of the smallest and most helpless of all humans is not the same as lust or hatred. While I am only a three-year-old Catholic (in a sixty year old body), I suspect being pro-choice is a mortal sin. Consequently, based on Pascal’s Wager, I would encourage all to err on the side of caution and be pro-life.

Posted by Greg on Tuesday, Oct 2, 2012 11:22 AM (EST):
“@cowalker:  Any Catholic who approaches God with the attitude you describe (let me assuage my guilt by following some rules) has missed the call of the Gospel and the Law entirely . . . .”

Yes, I get that. That was the point of my first post. Very, very few Christians, including Catholics, approach their professed religion with the attitude of “how much can I do for God?” Instead they are looking for a way to get the comfort of religion while making minimum sacrifices in their lifestyle. It was this way fifty years ago, when I was a child. I’m sure it was this way 1500 years ago, human nature being what it is.

But fifty years ago self-professed Catholics still worried about what their priests told them were mortal sins. They considered it important to avoid them in order to comply minimally with the requirements for salvation. This has changed. Self-professed Catholics no longer agree with the Church on what constitutes mortal sin. So why single out those who are pro-choice as having a more idiotic God than others are ok with HBC and others who don’t see the need to attend Sunday mass?

What I’m trying to say, apparently quite unsuccesfully, is that the problem of the phenomenon of pro-choice Catholics is just one expression of a big shift in attitude toward the authority of the Church to determine what is required of Catholics by God. The problem is this shift in attitude toward Church authority. It’s not that a God who allows abortion is idiotic. It’s that a God who allows abortion is not the God recognized by the Church hierarchy.  The question is, why do self-professed Catholics feel free to reject the Church’s version of God for their own? How do you persuade them to accept Church authority? That is the task. Threatening eternal damnation no longer works, because the threat cannot be taken seriously unless Church authority is already accepted.

Kari - it’s irrelevant. Even if no one at all was stepping up to adopt children, killing those children would still be wrong and evil. It is wrong and evil to kill any human being solely because they are allegedly unwanted.
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Why do you think it is moral to kill unborn children solely because they are allegedly unwanted?
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Also, why do you belong to the Catholic faith if you don’t believe that the Catholic faith has the fullness of Truth?

Kari ,
Good advice regarding adoption, but how does you’re being “pro-choice” fit into that?

JoAnna,
How can you say that it is irrelevant?  There are SO many children in the United States who yearn for a safe, forever home!  I, myself, would not have an abortion but if another woman chooses to, her choice. I will say it again, a belief is more than just words, it is action.

Kathleen, I thank God every day for my children and I am blessed that their birth mothers did not have an abortion.  I, also, would not have an abortion.  That being said, it is not my right to tell another women what she can or cannot do with her body.  This is what I believe and I know others believe differently.  The beautiful thing about the USA is that we can have differing opinions and beliefs.

This is not how the prochoice side thinks. They actually believe that they represent the prolife position by caring for poor people after they are born, and preventing unwed mothers from a enduring a life of poverty saddled with childcare bills. They insist the prolife movement only cares about fetuses. Of course they’re wrong—who else but the prolife movement runs charities such as adoption agencies, project Rachel (healing women from post-abortion trauma), aid for women baby showers, etc. The prochoice movement does nothing but consume mandatory tax contributions and exports the evils of contraception all over the world. As for the communion thing, not going to church on Sundays is not as admirable as going but refraining from communion. I have observed the former but not the latter lately.

@Trebert - I think you are confusing judging a person with judging behavior.  We can say that abortion is intrinsicly evil but it is not ours to say that so-and-so is evil because he commits abortion. Jesus taught us to judge behavior not people.  Jesus and Jesus alone will be the judge of all people.  How can a Christian turn from sin and repent without knowing what is sinful and what is not?  How can a Pastor lead sheep without telling them what is sinful and what is not?  Pauls letters to the churches were written in judgemet of their behavior.  As Christians we are called to follow Jesus and walk as Jesus walked.  Jesus constantly pointed out sinful behavior without singling out specific individuals.  Judging sin is entirely different than judging an individual. For example if a coworker confided in you that he no longer could handle the fiancial burden of supporting his family so he was going to murder all of his children would you tell him that would be wrong or would you try to comfort him and tell him that he has the right to be happy? Hope this helps.

P.S. Your post hurt my feelings and wasn’t very charitable…....get my point?

Kari, that’s like saying: “I’m pro death camp, because I could only hide two Jews.”

Kari - you misunderstand.  I’m saying that how many people adopt (or not adopt) is irrelevant to the issue of the morality of abortion. Abortion is intrinsically evil because it is the murder of an innocent human being. Period. Even if not a single person adopted or wanted to adopt, abortion would still be evil because it is always evil to murder an innocent child, regardless of the circumstances involved.
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I agree with you that adoption is wonderful. My step-nephew was adopted at birth (his mom’s name is Kari, lol)! And I’m a HUGE supporter of (and regular donator to) Reece’s Rainbow and the work that they do.
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So, why do you think it’s ever acceptable to murder an innocent child? Why do you belong to a church that you believe teaches error?
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I’d love to dialogue with you privately about this if you prefer. I’m sincerely interested in your responses. You can reach me at jrwahlund at gmail dot com or via my blog, http://a-star-of-hope.blogspot.com

Kari, murder is wrong regardless of who adopots or not. Your point is absurd.

Simcha~one of your BEST yet!!!  LOVE IT!!  thank you for what you do…although you cause me to sin through envy….I am jealous that you have the gift of finding the right way to show how moronic some people are!
God Bless you, keep up the great work!

Posted by AnonyMouse on Tuesday, Oct 2, 2012 11:57 AM (EST):

Simcha, if you truly believe that pro-choice Catholics worship a different and untrue God, then this article is both redundant and useless. As someone who at least pretends to be a devout and scholarly Catholic, you should know that several commandments also tell true believers to not convert or save idolaters, which, by your own words, you must think they are.

Of course, another commandment instructs believers not to be superstitious, and yet another not wear the garments of the opposite gender, and yet another allows for divorce, and yet another states that a rapist must marry his victim if she is unmarried.
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Mouse, surely you know the difference between the ceremonial law and the moral law?

I love this article and will surely forward it to friends from both sides of the fence.  However, we should stop using the word “pro-choice.” Our so-called pro-choice brethrens should be called by exactly what they are - pro-abortion.

Reading through the comments, it’s amazing how some people can’t handle the polemical tone. But it is excellent for revealing and dispelling apathy which is especially pervasive among nominal Catholics.

Very well-written!

@kari -
Posted by Kari you wrote “I am Catholic, I am pro-choice” Not sure if you realize it but your statement indicates some sense of confusion.  You state that you are “Catholic” and in the same breath you make a statement in favor of a belief that is not a Catholic teaching.  I am very curious how you reconcile your anti-catholic belief with your belief that you are “Catholic”  You may not realize this but your affirmation of an intrinsic evil severs your “communion” with the Church.  For example, imagine me saying “I belong to PETA and I believe in a persons right to mutilate and kill dogs”  does that make any sense?  You may not realize this but you are not “Catholic”  you are claiming a faith while simultaneously denying what that faith affirms (lukewarm).  If anything you are confused and confusing others.  There are other faiths that accept abortion as not being intrinsicly evil, I am very curious why you choose to remain in a faith that explicitly states that abortion is evil instead of being in a church that affirms what you affirm?  Adopting children does not make abortion not evil, your logic is…...well to be frank….illogical.  Peace in Christ.

Kari,
I hear you about what women-or men for that matter-do with their own bodies.I lean towards libertarian views.It becomes a different matter, though, when another human life’s involved.
I live in the Deep South & am old enough to remember when we had some very differing opinions & beliefs here regarding the equality of some human beings over others of another color.
We have great personal freedoms in America,true, but when it crosses over & becomes a license to discriminate against an innocent being’s human rights, it’s no longer a freedom but a violation.
And with ultra-sound technology, we know it’s a baby, we know what it looks like, we can’t deny its humanity as was done years ago.
Nor should we ignore women’s needs or what may cause them to undergo abortions in the first place.Both the needs of women & children should be addressed.

I am a cradle Catholic and my husband was raised Mennonite. After dating each other for 7 years we were both virgins until our wedding night. One year after we were married I gave birth to a child who could not breathe on her own, move on her own, or even swallow. She was born with the disease Spinal Muscular Atrophy - the #1 genetic cause of death in children under 2.  My husband and I had no idea that we were both carriers of this gene. We had no idea at that time that we would never bring our first-born home with us or that 8 weeks later we would have to bury our daughter. There is no cure for SMA. Each of our children would have a 25% chance of having SMA. We are now blessed with 2 living children who were tested in-utero for this disease and were found to not have SMA. Had they had SMA my husband & I (both pro-life) would have chosen to terminate the pregnancy. We would never watch another child of ours suffer the way our daughter did. We would never go through with a pregnancy that we knew would result in death once the baby was born. And any person who would tell us that we are not Christians or Catholic because we would end the life of our sick baby instead of watch her die in our arms is no more a Christian than the worst of sinners. I am not advocating abortion as a means of birth-control. However, to make terminating a pregnancy illegal even in cases such as what mine would have been, is not the answer either! And to sit and read that my GOD is an “idiot” is appalling. My God is the same as yours. I’ve just had to bury a baby with an awful, incurable disease—Have you?  My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ would forgive me for not wanting to put my baby through that pain and he would be there with open and loving arms to take that baby to heaven to wait for me until he calls me home.  I pray that you never have to feel the pain of burying a baby and that you never have to make the decisions that so many wonderful mothers and fathers have had to make. May God forgive you for judging others.

Linda Quirk, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  Those who assist in the procurement of abortion undergo automatic excommunication.

@AnonyMouse - According to your logic all of Jesus teachings and all of the Epsitles and all of the Gospels are “redundant and useless” We are called to spread the Gospel just as Jesus and the Apostles did.  Is it possible to spread the truth without speaking the truth?

Lisa S. - I’m very sorry for your loss. However, you present a false dilemma. If your children had the disease, hospice can keep them comfortable. You need to read this article again - God is the author of life and death, not is, even when our intentions are good. We may never do evil so that good may result.
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Do you honestly believe your first child did not bless ANYONE with his/her short life? That he or she was worthless and disposable because of his/her disease? What if you did kill your child and a cure for the disease was found months later? Etc. I’m sorry for the pain you went through, but terminal illness does not justify murder.

Kari,
You can’t be Catholic and believe that the pregnant woman next to you can kill her baby. Think it through. You’re sitting on a bus and you are 9 months pregnant, next to you sits another pregnant woman. What you said was that the baby in your womb has a right to live, but the baby in the womb next to you does not. You DO have a responsibility to always choose life for all babies, even the ones sitting next to you. You will be held accountable for the murders of these innocents.

Cowalker, Yes, a fair amount of Catholics go to mass like they pay their insurance premiums.  You are right of course that this is a kind of a lie. Man cannot light a candle to God and Mammon at the same time.  I’m sorry if this is what disillusioned you in your childhood.  Reducing God to the Pillsbury Dough Boy in the sky is MORE than idiotic, it represents the lack of a *relationship*. When a relationship is shriveling, and breathing its last gasps, death is right around the corner.  Even great Saints who had a sudden insight into what was wrong with their life or society in general needed to “chase” the conversion they personally had.  The difference is that despite their daily struggle with the impulses and selfishness that come with human nature, they don’t broker a *false peace* which allows for a shallow perception of comfort—and stagnate there.  Their reward comes from their choice to seek true love, regardless of the price, pain, or reward.  True love, is well acquainted with pain.  It is able to say: I love.  I love with the entire gift of myself, regardless of physical or sensory reward. Is there ever sensory reward?  Look at Bernini’s Teresa of Avila and try not to blush.  But True Love is so tested and authentic that faith alone suffices.  This is when the sublime takes place, and a human being can say, “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?”—and be converted into other Christs on earth.

JoAnna - By “comfortable” you mean doped up on morphine because he/she would not be able to breath because the muscles of the body could not support breathing.  She blessed numerous people even after we removed her from life support and watched her die within 15 minutes.  You’ve never had to do that though, right, JoAnna?  How would you reply to someone who congratulated you on your pregnancy if you knew that within a few minutes after birth the baby would suffocate and die?  Would you say “Oh, thank you so much….Hopefully you can come to his or her funeral.”  Unless you have been in the same shoes as a person faced with these decisions you cannot begin to understand.  And I thank the Lord that we did not have to make that decision and I pray we never do. 

Here- Here!  I’m so sick of people “claiming” to be Catholic and then spitting on everything Christ’s Church teaches. People have no idea how much damage they are doing to their souls. God help them.

@cowalker:  Thank you for the followup!  I agree with your analysis and the priority order you place things.  Your earlier post (and perhaps I was skimming too fast) left me with the impression that you were dismissive of the entire endeavor of serving God (all selfish motivation) rather than describing that approach as the prevalent one in our world.  On the topic of Simcha’s post and whether it serves the needs of such Catholics that approach the faith in this way, I believe the hope is that when the contradictions between their convictions and that of the God they profess to serve are made glaringly obvious, that perhaps a few will turn from them.  It is a human talent to delude ourselves just enough to push off uncomfortable information (consider our national debt), but when the right messenger holds up the truth with talent and courage, I believe that skill can be overwhelmed.  May it be so for all of us.  For it is in those moments we are open to being converted (and we all need it as you have aptly pointed out).

@Kari - Kari,I can’t help but wonder if your need to be liked by both sides (pro-Life/pro-death) is clouding your judgement.  I applaud you on adopting children but your posiiton is analogus to saying “I helped Jews escape the concentration camps but I think Hitler had the right to murder them” Difficult to comprehend.  Is it possible for you to sacrifice your need for acceptance in order to come into communion with the Catholic church?  Peace in Christ.

@motherof6cuties -  I second that emotion. Anti-Catholic “Catholics” remind me of Jesus words to Paul on the road to Damascus “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?”  Congrats on the 6 cuties!!! Peace in Christ.

@Lisa S. - I am very sorry for your loss and the pain and suffering you and your husband went through (and I am sure you still go through)  You wrote “We would never go through with a pregnancy that we knew would result in death once the baby was born”  As I read your post (and believe me it broke my heart) I can’t help but notice that your statement above describes exctly what the Virgin Mary experienced. Peace in Christ.   

Lisa S. - perhaps you should do some research. I don’t know how long ago you lost your first child, but great strides have been made in hospice technology since then. Morphine is not the only option for pain relief, and there are organizations that specialize in perinatal hospice.
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Perhaps you should speak with my dear friend Stephanie about carrying a baby with a terminal illness. Her baby, Peter, was diagnosed with acrania during her pregnancy. She chose to carry him to term and he lived for several hours after birth. She was able to have him baptized, and he met his siblings before he passed. http://lovingpeter.blogspot.com I may not have had the experience myself but she was such an amazing example to me. I aspire to be like her if I am ever in the same situation.
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You say your first child did indeed bless people in his/her short life. I am glad of that. Why would you deny any child that opportunity? If you are Catholic, then you should know that all suffering has a purpose. You would want to give your children the opportunity to be baptized so you know, without a doubt, that they are in heaven with God. I’ve had two babies die prior to birth, and my greatest wish is that they could have at least lived long enough to be born so I could have baptized them. 
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If I had a baby with a terminal illness, I would tell people, “Thank you. S/he is a blessing” because it would be the absolute truth.
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Regardless, 99.9% of abortions do not happen because of situations like yours. They happen to perfectly healthy children who are not murdered out of a misguided sense of mercy but because they are “inconvenient.” How can you justify that?

LisaS.  I’m so sorry you and your husband and your child suffered like that. I understand your agony.  I too have carried a baby that couldn’t live in this world.  I loved him until natural death.  Hastening his death would have been an insult to his beautiful, short life. Terminating life because of pain is a terrible answer.  Please consider the implications of this. Today, on this beautiful feast of the Guardian Angels, know that your little daughter was comforted in her last hours.
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I have thought about how I will deal with the possibility of this ever happening to my family again.  I will take the absolute best care of myself and my unborn baby.  I won’t ever do any AFP or amnio.  I will wait to have an ultrasound until the trimester before birth, in case there is a condition that needs to be treated.  I will love and honor that my child is a blessing, no matter what pain exists in this world, and yield our lives into the palm of God, whom I trust with all my heart.

Lisa S. ,
I went to church with a mother of 9 living children, 2 deceased. Two of her babies had been diagnosed in-utero with a condition similar to what you describe.As you might guess, in each case her non-Catholic OB-Gyn advised abortion & in each case she refused.She actually chose to remain with that same doctor through each pregnancy & delivery as a witness to her beliefs in the sanctity of life, hoping he would have a change of heart.Both babies died soon after birth & were buried in the little infant section of the Catholic cemetery.I used to pass by their memorials on my way to visiting my brother’s grave.
I’ve since moved to another area & don’t know whether that doctor has had a conversion experience or not.I’d like to believe so, but many, many others in our diocese were affected by that mother’s refusal to take the lives of her children.

Actually Simcha, I’m with you on this one. I stayed away from the Eucharist for over a year because I was living in sin AND married civilly, outside of the Church. I attended Mass, but stayed away from the Eucharist, and even went to Confession regularly. But after witnessing the perpetual starvation of my soul during this time, I told my “husband” that we needed separate rooms and to remain completely abstinent. For that, I attend Confession weekly, and with the permission of my confessor, have been able to receive the Eucharist. As Christ Himself noted, we cannot serve two masters, i.e., we cannot have it both ways. Either we accept His teachings and live accordingly, or we, as you said, “drink our damnation.” The Truth is the Truth, and that’s all that really matters, regardless how we “feel.”

This article builds a straw man. You create this stereotype of a Catholic who is not pro-life to your specs, and then savage that stereotype. That might be harmless if not for the ugly responses in the combox.  These ugly hateful words are supposed to bring people to Christ?  Draw them into the Church? Persuade this culture to abandon abortion?  Not a chance.  You folks can continue to whip each other into a frenzy as much as you want.  But it’s ugly.  It does not serve the gospel. And it will not stop a single abortion.

@Chuck - Amen!  I pray that I one day will be as strong and virtuous as our Blessed Mother.  And I rejoice knowing that I will see my daughter in Heaven!  Thank you for your insight - I’ve never looked at it like that before.

Harold - I have met many, many people who are exactly like Simcha describes. Get into some online debates with pro-choicers, or go pray outside of abortion clinics, and you’ll meet them too. Stereotypes, they are not.

Many times drs have been wrong w/ intro-utero diagnosis, or wrong w/ the outcome. A co-worker of my mom’s had a granddaughter that drs tried to convince to kill. The baby was properly diagnosed w/ 1/2 a brain, BUT misdiagnosed w/ the outcome. The parents to be, held on to the knowledge that God knows what He is doing. And if their child did indeed pass away shortly after birth, they would donate any organs to help save other young children’s lives (which, may in fact, be that child’s gift to the world. As maybe a child that recv’s these life saving organs goes on to cure cancer, or help unite all Christians. One never knows).

But, their child did live. Is now 8yrs old. The 1/2 that she was born w/ learned both functions thru physical therapy. She had never been held back a grade, nor needed any special Ed classes. She is a tad slower, & her parents work w/ her to fill in the gap. But, she is doing amazing! It is not up to us to deny God’s plan.

Charity exists in the context of Truth. Outside of Truth, “Charity” is deception and corruption.

Thank you for speaking Truth Simcha and all those who fight for pro-life!

No Child should ever be aborted because of inconvenience to the parents.  It is not justifiable to use it as birth control. For the women who have abortions for health reasons whether their own or the baby’s should be loved by their brothers/sisters in Christ for having to carry that cross. They should not have to fight the legal system to do what they feel is best for their family at that time.  Those mothers and fathers who make that decision to end the pregnancy do so with heavy hearts.

@Claire R - You wrote   “Please try to embrace those who retain the Catholic identity despite the Church’s many faults”  Have you ever heard of Luther or Calvin or Knox or Zwingli or Smith?  They also believed essentially what you believe (that they held the fullness of the truth and that the Catholic Church had many faults) They left the Catholic Church and started other churches that actually affirm what you believe.  Those churches are not in communion with the Catholic Church. The logical question is, why do you remain in a Church that you believe does not have the fullness of the truth instead of joining one of the churches that also affirms what you hold to be true?  Very curious. Peace in Christ.     

Lisa S.,

Killing a child is wrong regardless of any reason one gives. A heavy heart does not justify evil actions.

Posted by Harold Ullenberg on Tuesday, Oct 2, 2012 2:11 PM (EST):

This article builds a straw man. You create this stereotype of a Catholic who is not pro-life to your specs, and then savage that stereotype. That might be harmless if not for the ugly responses in the combox.  These ugly hateful words are supposed to bring people to Christ?  Draw them into the Church? Persuade this culture to abandon abortion?  Not a chance.  You folks can continue to whip each other into a frenzy as much as you want.  But it’s ugly.  It does not serve the gospel. And it will not stop a single abortion.
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You are very wrong. Calling plain talk “ugly” is ugly. Calling truth “hate” is hateful. You think speaking the truth offends our Lord? You think every single situation must be addressed in the exact smae manner every time?

We live in an effete time. Any talk that is bold or has any force is immediately termed hate and divisive. Basically, you want to plug your ears and pretend it is not as late as it is.

What a horrible choice of words Ms. Fisher! You could have addressed this topic by writing about how Pro-Life Catholics Worship a Loving God and made your point in a much, much less harsh manner. It’s hard to believe that you spoke of God in such a nasty, negative way. I can’t even make myself type the word use used to describe God! I’ll keep you in my prayers tonight. God Bless You!

Simcha… you are really on fire lately—and I LOVE IT

@anon:  Well then Thanks be to God that I didn’t have to make that decision.  Let he among us WITHOUT SIN be the first to condemn.  I take it you are perfect and without sin.  Otherwise, you dare not point out others’ evils before your own. We will all answer to God for actions, good or evil.

Lisa S.,

Supporting abortion is evil. It leads others astray. No one is judging anyone’s soul, but we must judge their words. Not to point out such a serious error will be judged by our Lord.

No one needs to be sinless to point out that abortion is murder and is never justified. If you think that is wrong then remember that Christ said he who hears you hears Me and he who rejects you rejects Me. The Church has taught, clearly, that direct abortion is intrinsically evil.

It seems Harold Ullenberg has never heard of tough love. Obviously, he’s never read the Bible. I strongly suggest he does, since God in the Old Testament was very strict, and Christ in the New Testament was “harsh” when times called for it.

Christ even goes as far as to suggest that those who scandalize a child should tie a millstone around their necks and drown. It makes one wonder what His thoughts are regarding tearing those “precious little ones” to pieces.

@ Claire R.
You say, ““How can we decide for a woman whether or not she should surrender her life for her child?  Who are we to dictate the action of a woman who may be choosing to orphan her other children and widow her husband?...but how is a woman forced BY LAW to die against her will a testament to a life giving God?”
    - Here’s the thing.  No one is “forcing”  a woman to “die”, they are only saying that murdering her unborn baby is not an option.  No one has the right to sacrifice the life of their child, so that they might live.  No pregnancy, “guarantees” the death of the mother. In the rare instances that the risk is high, no one should be permitted to “play God”.  Only God is control of who lives and dies.

You also say, “Please try to embrace those who retain the Catholic identity despite the Church’s many faults a but more credit. ”  Let me point out that the so-called “faults” you speak of our not that of the Catholic Church, rather the sins of people in the Church.  The Catholic Church , established by Jesus, to proclaim His teachings, has always and will always hold claim to the fullness of truth.  A Catholic who presents themselves as pro-choice is taking issue with a fundamental teaching of the Catholic Church.  This is the problem.  This is not something that deserves credit. Let us not forget the countess Catholics who have remained faithful to all teachings of the Church, despite the sins of the people in it. This is what we are all called to do.  Living as a FAITHFUL CATHOLIC requires that we NEVER be SATISFIED with a LACK OF UNDERSTANDING, but rather that we are ALWAYS STRIVING TO GROW in KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING of TRUTH! We’ve been given a tremendous gift: the Catholic Church!  The Church has all the answers, because they are Jesus’ answers!  We need look no farther!  A person who doesn’t understand this doesn’t need “credit”, they need prayers and they need to hear the truth. 

Thank you God, for the gift of your most holy Catholic Church to show us truth and lead us in this journey! Praise be to God in his wisdom and glory, now and forever, Amen!

Since the Pro-Choice end of being Catholic, addressed by the entry, seems relevant to a comment an online friend through Facebook, gave to a video my mother shared with me, last night:  I will say, something about it.  Tradition Family Property protested against homosexual marriage, on a corner in Maryland.  A woman stood to the front of them, with a sign, shouting at traffic, passing:  “Wake up America!”.  My friend, a Christian Libertarian, commented:  Since marriage is between a man, and a woman, government should get out of it.  Prompted by the reference to government, I read through a recently obtained copy of The U.S. Constitution, provided through a local Republican Headquarters:  where I volunteered the other day.  Powers of The Congress, pertain only tenusously to the taxation of married couples, under Article VI, where taxes may be levied both for licenses, concerning employment, and for licenses concerning sport.  I commented to him:  you have a wife, awfully sporting of you.  Then I conversed with my mother, a suggestion of hers, led to me furthering the comment, that homosexuals and their sympathizers, favor the use of government, through taxpayer dollars, toward getting into marriage:  where it is has no U.S. Constitutional authority to do so; however, the taxation of marital status, or the lack of it, might absurdly become a precedent on the premise, that to marry in legal terms, simply is to gain the equivalent of a sporting license, or a business license to employ a spouse.  The theft against gender, against those unpaid for their services in marriage, might add a new legitimacy to prostitution and Karl Marx’s view of human labor, as a commodity.  It is difficult to avoid a certain caustic sarcasm on this matter, and my resolution to the problem of sarcasm, might be as sincere as the woman protesting against the choice, of homosexuality and marriages among homosexuals:  “WAKE UP AMERICA!”!

Ms. Fisher,

Many thanks for having the courage to write what many would never dare write for fear of being seen as outside the norm. That is courage. As soon as I read your piece I knew that the comments would come to attack your position. Not only from the pro abortion folks, but from Catholics who reject Church teaching and would replace it with their own.

We need more essays like yours. Not as a cudgel to attack, but because it pricks the seared consciences of many. The negative responses reveal how much we refuse to submit to Jesus through His Church.

Hey Lisa S., I’m pretty sure slave owners said that to the abolitionists, and I’m just as sure that at some point in time, you condemned those slave owners’ words.

And furthermore, if we cannot inform you that your words are wrong, then who are you to decide that any child you conceive should die based on any disease he/she may have? Just as Judgment is reserved to the All-Just One, so too are life and death decisions reserved for the Author of Life.

God Bless.

While Simcha’s tone and words may seem harsh, the fact is that practically all “pro-choice Catholics,” like nearly everyone else who is “pro-choice,” is willfully ignorant about what abortion is.  Like the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade, they rely on ancient ignorance to turn what hasn’t been a question for a couple centuries into a question once again.

Thank you thank you thank you Simcha! I wish more high-profile Catholics were as straightforward as you are on Church teachings. I am 25. A cradle-Catholic. I never for the first 23 years of my life heard a single sermon on birth control. I never heard a peep from any priest on the subject of abortion. Or gay “marriage.” There was a lot of “dialogue,” and coddling, and gentle suggestions of how one should lead their life (always with the implication that Church teaching was optional, based on ) I hadn’t attended Mass in years when I randomly stumbled across a devout Catholic woman’s blog. The entry I found was a fiery, no-nonsense,piece on the moral consequences of birth control (which I had used for years). I read it and was beyond offended. I felt judged. I felt angry.

I felt intrigued.

Despite the fact that I always identified as Catholic, I had never in my life been called out on my flippant disregard for Church teaching. I had never been faced with the very blunt consequences of very serious (mortal) sin. But some part of me desperately (and unconsciously) wanted and needed an eternal Truth that wasn’t subject to my own ever-changing desires and emotions.  Even though I felt deeply offended by the blog, I couldn’t get it out of my mind. This woman wrote with a confidence and belief that is unseen in my generation. I had to know more. I started reading Church documents, the writings of theologians, following more blogs…. 2.5 years later I have reconciled with the Church, ditched the pill in favor of NFP, and make a 50-minute round trip every Sunday to attend Mass at a Parish where the priest isn’t afraid to be blunt.

Wake up, people. My generation is as good as lost if more Catholics aren’t willing to step up and TELL IT LIKE IT IS. Enough with the “feel good” theology. The point of Church isn’t to have “dialogue” and to leave Mass feeling smug. We are SUPPOSED to feel uncomfortable in this life, to suffer…what else would motivate us to long for (and work towards) our eternal life with Christ?

Carry on, Simcha!

Nobody is condemning anyone, who through weakness, and poor counsel, succumbed to temptation.  God is a loving and merciful God.  The key to finding wholeness again is *repentance* from sin.  In order for repentance to happen, one must be able to fully recognize sin for what it really is—spiritual disease, on a bad road, pointing in a bad direction.  It is the defiant, recalcitrant, so-called pro-abortion Catholic that is being addressed—the ones that call sin okay and suffering sin. This rather startling approach IS calling out false gods for the Golden calves they really are—A Moloch dressed in sheep’s clothing. The true disservice to our neighbor is mouthing platitudes or looking the other way while they cuddle up to their false idol.
This is the perfect venue for telling the truth.  Nobody is pointing a finger at anyone.  Nobody at mass has a finger pointed in their face.  Nobody needs to stand up to the podium here or take the witness stand.  It is up to *us* to come clean with ourselves.  Who can do this for us?

We all have our bad days after all, we are all but human. Abortion can cause the innards of any decent human being to feel enraged, angry and well, just so pissed off about the world. So in thinking this, I understand you might of had this all in your head and vanity just got the best of you today.  There is a fine line between the evil that exists in the abortion clinic and the evil that exists in the pro-life movement…be wary of crossing it.

It’s a shame that NFP isn’t spoken of more in the Catholic Church. Growing up in a Catholic home and attending weekly and often daily Mass I never heard of NFP until shortly before marriage in Pre-Cana classes.  It seems as if the Church feels it can’t educate people on topics of intimacy except “Don’t have Sex until you’re married” - Perhaps if more people spoke openly about such topics we would not be lost and searching for more readily available information.

Ahhh so true. The God who by his own example taught us personal sacrifice for others - even unto death - and to live in the service of our fellow man…. What about that message sounds like it would lend itself to pro-choice? Very poignant. Thank you

@Lisa S. - So to bring my point to conclusion, what if the Blessed Virgin Mary (wanting to spare Jesus terrible pain and suffering) had said no to God?  What if Abraham had said no to God?  We cannot fully understand Gods ways.  We might wonder why did Jesus have to suffer and die in order to reconcile us with God?  Surely God could have just forgiven us and wipred the slate clean?  What was gained through Jesus’ suffering and death?  Why were Adam and Eve allowed to be tempted?  Why does God allow us to be tempted?  All that we can know (by faith) is that God truly loves us and there is a reason for everything that God does.  All that we can do is say “yes Lord, let it be done to me according to your will”  I imagine standing on a cliff and Jesus appears far below on the ground and looking up to me He says “come to Me” out of fear and doubt I reply “hold on I’ll be right down” and I start running the long and winding path to the ground below. But when I get to the bottom Jesus is gone.  This is how I view our faith, we can choose what we believe to be the “safe” path or we can trust completely in Jesus and take a leap of faith.  Peace in Christ.

As a woman who has had an abortion and been converted, my take on Simcha’s post is this:

If we truly believe in a loving and merciful God, then every child killed in an abortion is in His loving embrace for eternity.  I like to believe that those children intercede and pray for their parents’ conversions, but even if not, they are doubtless with Him.  It is the women and men who have had and supported/encouraged abortions who have to live with the shame, guilt, remorse, anger and self-hatred that comes with having made such a choice.  Many are unable to muster the humility to acknowledge that their sin is what is causing their anguish and cannot embrace a movement that insists on throwing the fact that they took their child’s life back in their face.  They find it easier to believe that they made “the right choice”. 

Perhaps some of the sanctimonious Catholics who feel they’ve never sinned and believe they can choose which teachings they accept might be moved by the rant in this post.  In my experience, however, Catholic women who have aborted will recoil in shame, fear and pain.  They may, out of fear, continue to attend Mass and even receive Jesus.  I believe this post would drive those women from the Church before it would inspire them to confession and conversion.  But perhaps they are not the target audience.

Donna, Read Mary B’s comment just up a few from yours. Her experience matches my experience in the Catholic Church EXACTLY. I believe this is the target audience that Simcha is trying to reach with this article. And there’s LOTS of us out there.

@Harold Ullenberg - You wrote “This article builds a straw man. You create this stereotype of a Catholic who is not pro-life to your specs, and then savage that stereotype”  Fascinating. Simcha affirms what the Catholic church actually teaches and poses the question why would someone deny the teaching of the church while at the same time claiming to be in FULL communion with that church and in your view she is buildig a “straw man” Simcha is not constructing her own opinion of what the church teaches or should teach she is affirming what the church actually teaches.  According to your logic those who deny what the church actually teaches and then claim to be in full communion with the church are on solid ground.  I will see your “straw man” and raise you a “jello-man”.  Peace in Christ. 

I’ve seen a lot of comments dismissing Simcha’s words as not being gentle and loving enough. You seem to forget that Jesus was not always gentle and loving. Sometimes the truth must be spoken, no matter how harsh it sounds. And sometimes, too much “loving dialogue” can make truth sound optional. Which is why there is so much confusion surrounding these issues today.
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We have an obligation to each other to always be truthful, and to help each other along the path to eternal life. If that means pointing out when something is a sin, then we must do this. Jesus says in Matthew 18 we are to address our brother’s sins. This is not being judgmental, but truthful.
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@Lisa S. I am so very sorry for your loss. I know people who have been through similar situations, and I know it is agonizing. Though I have never dealt with that particular scenario, I have had suffering in my life. We all have. I don’t think anyone’s suffering makes their life not worth living, no matter how short that life may be or how hard the suffering is to watch. It is possible that some who read this blog have heard of Angela Faddis, a 32-year-old mother of two who recently died of cancer. The last year and a half of her life was agonizing and she suffered greatly. Would you have euthanized her, to save her from that suffering? Most people would say no, and I would agree with them, because she is a human being loved by God who’s life had value even in suffering. Why is her life different than that of a newly born baby? It shouldn’t be valued differently. Abortion to prevent suffering is euthanasia and it is wrong. It is impossible to understand why God allows these things to happen, but he does, and we can only trust that he will somehow bring good of it if we allow him to.
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And finally, do you think the babies who are aborted don’t suffer? I can’t imagine worse pain and agony than what they go through in their last moments. So, in the end, they aren’t saved from suffering anyway. I will pray for your change of heart, it’s obvious that you are a mother who loves her children deeply and none of us want to see our children suffer.

Donna, I don’t think that a woman or man who procured or otherwise had something to do with an abortion and because of that does not feel comfortable embracing the pro-life cause can be automatically labeled “pro-choice.”  To consider someone “pro-choice,” I would have to find them willing to publicly advocate a position of permissiveness regarding abortion as a matter of public policy.  That’s not to say that the Church shouldn’t do a better job of ensuring that those in the position you describe feel welcomed by the Church, rather than alienated, perhaps as a result of rebuffing otherwise innocent attempts to involve them in pro-life activities.

To Simcha,
After reading your article my thoughts that Our God is the only one who
knows the hearts of all. We can tell alot about their actions though. we have to admonish the sinner in love, but we have to do it. Just asking you to only capitalize God when referring to Our God and when talking about the other idols, please use small lower case g, as nothing else deserves the Captial but Our God. The rest are idols. thanks

May God bless you and your children who will bring the sensibility of our faith to posterity! You put on paper so elegantly what the average faithful Catholic struggles to say. Not many have the strength to level the name “idiot god” upon pro-choice Catholics, but it is a beautifully precise term that must be said, as contentious as it may be.

Simcha: First let me say that the substance of your article is spot-on.  But, as a Catholic journalist, I would think that you would be more knowledgeable regarding Catholic writing protocol. By using a capital “g” when referring to false gods, you give the false gods the same footing as the One, True God! As a Catholic, I was taught that any reference to God, Jesus, pronous referring to His Divinity should always be capitalized. Perhaps you were educated in the post-Vatican II era. In addition, by calling those who who support abortion “pro-choicers”, is also a term coined by those same folks with the hope that the term will somehow obfuscate the reality of what the abortionists support. Like pro-lifers, those who support abortion should be called what are: pro-abortion. They are not for choice because CHOICE only refers to those women who choose to kill their unborn children.  We on the pro-life side have too long been dancing around all the rhetoric and “buzz” words surrounding the reality of the abortion holocaust.  We need to call it as we see it. We need to proclaim the truth without concern of being called names.

@ Kari

You ask:  “How many of you pro-life Catholics have stepped up and adopted a child out of the social service system?”

I know at least five people who CANNOT have children and want to adopt a baby.  I am not one of those people and, in fact, have borne THREE children.  I have had ZERO abortions and could not take birth control as that just made me sick.  I haven’t always lived the life of a Catholic, but I have always stood by my belief (whether I worshiped as a protestant or Catholic) that abortion is murder.

We are, all of us, sinners.  However, if I, as a Catholic, did not stand by that belief, the remaining beliefs would become as weak.  So, Pro-Life Catholics are standing by that belief and the belief that our businesses should not have to participate in such activities, as well as contraception and promiscuity.  If our belief system fails us, what is left?

Pam

@Lisa S.

I have a simple solution. Stop having sex with your husband. Once you stop this action, you will no longer have to worry about having a child that has the disease you speak of. It is indeed a sacrafice, but so is murdering a living human being in your womb. The difference is the former sacrifice is not a mortal sin that puts your soul at risk of hell, while the later action is a mortal sin that puts your soul at risk of hell. You and your husband are human beings, capable of making rational decisions, so it is not impossible for you to no longer have sex. If you are that worried about the disease (and it sounds terrible, so I can understand being that concerend), then the only solution is to refrain from having sex. Protecting a child being born with a painful disease and/or being tempted to murder an unborn child is a legitimate reason to refrain from having sex with your husband, I am sure.

@Tori -  You make a very good point. According to the pro-abortion advocates, having your head crushed with forceps and then being cut, sliced and ripped into chunks that can be sucked through a vacum hose is necessary to prevent…...... suffering.  According to pro-abortion advocates being partially pulled out of your mothers womb so that just your head is visible and then having your skull repeatedly punctured with a metal spike until you are dead prevents….....suffering.  Oddly enough some of the staunchest pro-abortion advocates are also animal rights activists.  I doubt that my graphic comment will be posted because one thing that is not allowed when discussing abortion is talking about what actually happens during an abortion.  Lord Have Mercy….

Simcha, I really appreciated this. I used to identify as a “pro-choice Catholic” - as a convert, even! - and the conversations I had with people (including priests!) who were (very rightly) trying to change my thinking never pointed out the inherent contradictions you do here - they were sweet, and nice, and clearly didn’t want to anger me (after all, what if I got so mad I quit coming to Mass?) Thankfully, through my own first pregnancy and probably the prayers of many people I came to see the arrogance and awfulness, truly, of my former way of thinking. I prided myself on being an “intellectual” but hadn’t, thanks to my own faults and the crazy secular world in which I had been raised, seen what was staring me in the face. If I had run into this when I was still “pro-choice,” I would have been mad, but I hope I would have had the intellectual honesty to confront the argument.

Chuck:  I’m not sure, but if you were referring to a “partial birth abortion”, the baby is delivered breach—that is, with its feet first.  In this barbaric procedure, everything except the baby’s head is delivered.  At that point, the abortionist turns the baby so it is face down (head still in the birth canal), inserts a scissors into the base of the skull, and once in, opens the scissors thereby severing the baby’s brain stem ostensibly killing it.  Believe it or not, there are a number of Australian bio-ethicists who are now proposing an “AFTER” birth abortion.  That is, that because unborn babies and children up to the age of 5 are not persons, therefore, can be killed for various reasons.  Check it out if you don’t believe me.  We live in a sick, sick world.  I don’t know how much longer God will allow this to continue.

Thank you Simcha!!! I agree. I also am appauled by Catholics who take contraception pills and then have sex, and then go to Communion and take God’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity into their mortally sin stained body.  If a Catholic wife and/or husband takes a contraception pill - then they MUST NOT have intercourse! They may only have intercourse when not using any pill, condom, IUD, or sterilization.  Once you sterilize yourself, that means NO-MORE SEX!!! Or else you need to make regular trips to the confessional before going to communion!

Such is life in the world of religion. Constantly bickering about whose interpretation of their relationship with God is more correct. I’ll enjoy my relationship with the Man upstairs, you enjoy yours. The Bible in any form is simply a series of stories collected through thousands of years of playing “telephone”. See you in Heaven.

I think the truth and beauty of your ideas is lost on the need to appear shocking and controversial and because of that, sadly, I’m not willing to share this post with friends or relatives that either agree or disagree. I will however remember the sentiment about Mary and the profound effect HER choice had on this world and the next, and share that in a tone of respect.

@Christopher Michael: Not to nitpick (Ok, yes I am nitpicking, but it’s important), someone who has been sterilized need only go to confession once so long as they are truly sorry. Although the results of the sin are permanent and sterility remains, the results of their confession (being absolved from the sin) are also permanent. Some may choose to have their sterilization reversed but it is not required by the church to be reconciled.

I know good people who have been deceived.  A kind nurse who attended to me and my unborn son, who had no hope of surviving, told me about her only daughter that was diagnosed with having an “unsurvivable trisomy”.  She brought her Catholic priest to “baptize” her baby, at her abortion at 18 weeks. 
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My sister was told that her unborn son also had a fatal trisomy.  Her specialist became angry when she refused to abort. She had a priest in attendance at the birth to baptize her baby who had “no chance of survival”.  He is now 17.  He has Downs and health problems.  I don’t worry so much about him.  He is too simple to sin.  It’s all the other teenagers in the family that I worry about.

Too true for comfort. The problem with creating your own God is that the True God just won’t be replaced by our reasonable facsimile.

Simcha,
I think this is a helpful & necessary type of post. I know Catholics who have SO convinced themselves that abortion is not so bad; same-sex marriage is only justice, & so on; that it would likely never occur to them to consider what God has done for us. They no longer truly “see” the cross. And I notice that they do not think of God as SOMEONE - One who has done so much for us, & One who has the 100% RIGHT to make the rules. Posts such as yours will pour some cold water on such individuals: “Wake Up!!” And Christ would approve of that.

Better a little, jarring wake up call now, than endless separation from God later!

@Erin Jacobs - You wrote “I think the truth and beauty of your ideas is lost on the need to appear shocking and controversial and because of that, sadly, I’m not willing to share this post with friends or relatives that either agree or disagree” To that I reply,  I think the truth and terror of abortion is shocking and because of that, gratefully, I am willing to share this post with friends and relatives whether they agree or disagree.  Peace in Christ.

“Jesus did not come to make us nice men He came to make us changed men”

Bishop Fulton Sheen

Simcha,
even after prayerfull consideration, once a person posts dialog such as yours they sometimes step back and wonder if it was right to do so. DO NOT QUESTION IT ANY LONGER. your post is spot on - and serves to put those on notice who have creted their own reality of God where they stand. As a father of eight and a manager of staff, I know i must treat ever person differently in order to get through to them. At one end of the spectrum they act as expected and need no coaching. At the other end is a person, no matter how we approach an issue, they will not do their job. So they need told straight forward how wrong they are, what is expected and where the door is.

@Sister Terese Peter - Yes that is the procedure I was refering to. I have heard both the method you described as well as the method I described but I have to admit I do not know the specifics of the procedure except that the child is not fully removed from the mother.  Both are utterly barbaric.  I have heard about the “ethics commission” that suggested that post birth abortions should be legal.  We really need to pray, once a heart is hardened no amount of reason or truth can get through.  Peace in Christ.

Well, not having sex has worked for me.  I’ve finally stopped leaking babies! 

I’m not taking this topic lightly.  I’m simply pointing out that not having sex does have its pros (and cons).  Another pro is that you won’t contract any diseases if you refrain.  Did you know that Herpies and Venereal Warts are not truly prevented by condoms?  Oddly enough, neither is pregnancy. Go figure.

@Okie:  Thank you for bringing up my intimate life.  Actually if all here are so inclined to know…We do not have sex anymore.  I am so happy you pointed this out so others know what kind of sacrifice I have made for my children.  But thank you for bringing it up because you obviously have a bitter and evil heart to act like such a “Christian”.  Perhaps you should spend much more time alone with God to learn what Jesus spoke: LOVE.  You are quite a pompous and sinful man.  May God have mercy on your soul. We have been celibate now for 2 and a half years.  You’re a jerk and I hope you feel proud of your actions and your words.  I am sure you don’t make anyone else proud with that type of sarcastic and degrading comment.

@Lisa s
I am so sorry for your loss.  I actually envy you. You see, I was in your situation but we terminated the pregnancy.  I thought we were doing the right thing, the compassionate thing .  I can tell you we were so wrong!  Are you saying you wished you terminated your child’s life?  I am saying that it is wrong to kill a child NO MATTET WHAT.  I have other children that were born healthy but what if they are in an accident? Killing them to put them out of their misery is nt an option.  I can totally understand the temptation to feel as you do but take it from someone who has been there, abortion is diabolical

@Heartbroken.  No we had no idea we carried this deadly gene until our daughter was born and never would I have changed having her.  But to go through it again.  To hold your child in your arms while they turn blue and cold is not something I ever would want to do again.  She was baptized and spent her entire 7 weeks, 6 days and 14 hours in the NICU until we removed her breathing tube and gave her back to God. But to go through that again is not even thinkable.  There is no cure.  FightSMA

Lisa S., your struggle is heart breaking.  I will keep you and your husband in my prayers.

@Lisa s
I hear you, believe me.  I held my dead baby too and I assure you, to be the one responsible for that is horrifying.  I only wish we would have heard this message somewhere before we made our “choice”

I will pray for you Lisa.  Losing a child is such a tragedy , one we never get over regardless of the situation.

“A true prophet comforts the disturbed and disturbs the comfortable.”
As far as I can tell Simcha, you’re doing just that!

Heartbroken, and Lisa, your wounds are powerful before God.  United to the wounds of Christ, they might be the very grace that saves a human being born *whole* in this world, from eternal loss.
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I had a miscarriage about 10 days ago.  It was not lost to me that on the day I started to spot, a young woman and her mother came to visit me.  I had helped the mother not to to abort her daughter at Planned Parenthood twenty years ago.  She wanted to come and see me before she left for college.  What a divine and bittersweet consolation.  I actually cried in *sorrow* for the fact that such a beautiful, bright young woman could be saved so simply.
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I don’t go down to the “death mills” anymore.  But I am utterly sure that simple faithfulness to our duty as Catholics, and yes, even our most bitter wounds, can become incense, when united to the cross of Christ, and grace to soften mothers hearts, turning them back to their children.
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We are all connected in the body of Christ.

natasha I was struck by your comment that your husband is not sold on confession.  As a cradle Catholic, now practicing Lutheran for myriad reasons (including husband), I will say that I miss personal confession very much. I think the ELCA is wrong on not having it. Tell him this: “The ability of humans to deceive themselves is infinite.  Having to voice your own perceived faults to another human being on a regular basis helps to work against this tendency towards self-justification and deception.”  When I was younger I was too proud to think I “needed” a confessor…now I see that we all need such a priest. The ego rails against this need, but it is therefore needed all the more. The pride of the ego is our worst enemy.

JoAnna,
I don’t always agree with you 100%, but your words on this comment stream are very fruitful.

You are part of this problem that fosters hate and intolerance. Jesus came to simplify the rules and scrupulous dietary and rituals of the Jewish faith. The Catholic Church promotes ritual and rules and this terrible pope has set us backwards in progress towards the future.  I can’t wait for the next pope.  May he be more progressive and get conservative rule makers out of the Church so you can go worship “an Idiot God” - you arrogant, childish, offensive being. May The God of Truth have mercy on you.

Yeah I don’t think this was meant to start a dialogue. Whoever would want to, for that matter? I witnessed at a Freedom of Religion Rally a pair of pro-choice Christians protesting it, and a good priest I know went up to them, inquiring after the contents of their signage. (Something about the War on Women.) The conversation which ensued, an abyss which didn’t seem to have an end or a beginning, any form or purpose—despite the appeals to reason of this priest—did not change anybody’s mind but my own. The sole onlooker walked away thinking it was impossible for an ass, as well as a camel, to go through the eye of a needle.

Pray, hope, and don’t worry!

I think it is unfair to say that someone who has a different perspective worships an “idiot God.”  I do not doubt that abortion is taking a life and that it is wrong.  And I am also not convinced that if we make abortion against the law that the problem will be solved and people will not have abortions anymore.  I think it would be helpful if people on both sides of the issues were open to listening to one another and would work together towards creating policies and programs that make it easier for women to keep and care for their babies and adequately meet their children’s basic needs.  Saying someone worships an “idiot god” is only polarizing the issue further, is judgmental,and unfair.  There is no evidence that Jesus ever asked the apostles for their opinion about public policy issues before giving of himself at the last supper.  He did not tell people who disagreed with him about matters of public policy that they were worshiping an “idiot God.”

Lisa, praying for your and your husband. I am so sorry for all your family’s pain.

Simcha, I cannot tell where your heart was when you wrote this, but I think I have been there too. Is that what they call “holy anger?” The part that hit me was the juxtaposition of the all powerful God on Mount Horeb and the beginning of the story of salvation- God’s amazing work- but, well, we can set some of that aside if some of these laws don’t work for you. It makes that god seem like a pansy, or at least a pushover parent that lets the call the shots.

I was very intersted that there were not that many self identifying pro choice catholics on here. I only saw a few.  I sincerly would be interested in their opinions on this.

As for whether or not boldness is a good thing, well, if it Holy Spirit inspired, it is! I was very zealous in my young 20s, and one day inbetween classes (at college) a group of us students say around the lounge and were discussing that must have been something like what we discussing here.  I apparently said that if someone can’t put their hand on the catechism of the catholic church and say they accept and believe everything in it, even if they don’t understand or have a hard time agreeing with it, then they’re not really a Catholic. WOWZA! I didn’t even remember that comment until I reconnected with a former classmate who apparently was sitting in that conversation. He said at first he was put off and thought I was arrogant, but that he could never get that comment out of his mind. Hetold me this years later that this is why he went in to the seminary! Wow! The funny thing is I was embarrassed when he told me what i had said ( I hadn’t remembered) and couldn’t imagine being so bold at this point in my life. So either God can use a complete zealot to do his works or it truly was the Holy Spirit that prompted me and planted a seed. Seminary, that’s so cool!

This article preaches to the choir. But to think we don’t need to speak strongly, even to the faithful, is an error. It was iñteresting reading the comments. Some wanted this to be conciliatory,others-compassionate, still others - accommodating and understanding. That was. Not the intent, as far as I read. It was to mock the silliness of making an absolute truth conform to transient norms. This is akin to me not teaching my children values, right and wrong, character. Then being surprised when they are unprepared for life, challenges, dating, buying a used car. As a father myself, I have to laugh at those who think I would bully my child for my own power and not try to guide them becuase I know the errors of certain decisions. Think about it!

The truth will only be received to the degree one is open to the truth. It does not matter how it is said there will always be those that reject the truth. They will call it ugly, or divisive, or mean, but like immature children the problem is not perceived tone the problem is they hate the message.

Like so many topics today people demand that every single word to approached in such a way that no one could be offended even when they have no right to claim offense.

I am so saddened by the lack of civility, the lack of understanding and the lack of mercy that so many people have demonstrated by their posts on this topic. Calling people out because they do not have a good appreciation of Catholic teaching or trying to make people feel like they are not being good Catholics unless they agree with you in every way is pathetic. Who are you to judge? Only God knows what is in people’s hearts and only God can judge them and thankfully He is all merciful and all loving. Using this site to hurt others is a sin! Try to remember that before you post something hurtful.

I’ve read all the comments, and I’d like some clarification as to what constitutes a pro-choice/pro-life person—Catholic or non-Catholic.
Is the distinction one of belief or voting record?  If someone holds one belief and doesn’t vote, does it nullify the person’s thoughts?  For example, if a person believes that abortion is the killing of another person and does not vote, is that person still pro-life by virtue of his or her beliefs?  Should he or she refrain from taking the Eucharist at Mass?  If someone who believes that abortion is the killing of another person votes for someone who will not make abortion illegal thereby pro-choice?  Or, does someone need to state explicitly that a woman’s choice has nothing to do with life-taking to be pro-abortion?  Where is the line drawn?  It seems as if it could fall in different places depending on which comment one reads.

Thank you Simcha! When it comes to abortion, Catholics, of all people, should know better.  Abortion isn’t a “choice” or “belief.” Abortion is a reality and absolute truth.  That reality and absolute truth is the deliberate killing of another human being. Nothing can change this…ever. True we are free to choose to do what we want with our bodies.  However, our choices “end where another person’s nose begins.”  A person exercises their freedom of choice by partaking in the sexual act.  The reality and absolute truth here is, sex and procreation cannot be divorced.  Even when we try to divorce the two a.k.a contraception, we find even that fails. So no matter what we do, if we partake in the sexual act, we are knowingly opening ourselves to the possibility of creating another human being whether we want to or not. Once that other human being is created, the issue is no longer about one person, but two.  The “choice” was made during the sexual act. Thus the only “choice” left, is to abort the child as a criminal chooses to kill another human being, which is defined as murder. Abortion isn’t about “my right to choose,” or “beliefs.”  Abortion is purposefully killing another human being.  Period. I reserve my compassion for those who were forced to abort their babies and endure the heartbreak; or those who aborted their baby only to discover the truth later, living everyday in regret; or even those who are miserably confused and actively seeking truth. But for those who sit back with indifference passing abortion off as “choice” because they are too lazy to seek the truth or those who support killing an unborn child in the pursuit of selfish gain because they can’t stop wallowing in self-pity, I am out of patience.

Is the goal of the pro-life movement to change laws, change hearts, or both?  Will one lead to the other?  Will changing a law change hearts?  Will changing hearts change laws? Will they happen simultaneously?  In my perfect world, if we change enough hearts, certain political laws won’t be needed because people wouldn’t make choices that would hurt another human being.  Abortion wouldn’t even enter into people’s minds if their hearts were softened.  How do we soften hearts?

Tony - who am I to judge? I’m a Catholic who follows the Scriptures and the Catechism, both of which COMMAND us to judge the acts and behavior of our fellow Christians: http://catholicphoenix.com/2011/03/01/yes-catholics-can-judge/

Hateful.

Thank you for writing this!  I live in MN and am so fed up with “Catholics” supporting same sex marriage, including some of my own relatives.  I have watched our pro-marriage signs be stolen, vandalized, and defaced.  I think people are so entranced by the devil that discussion is over.  You have renewed my energy not to discuss, but to fight!

On the subject of who are you to judge others - Jesus commanded us to love each other not judge each other. Jesus defended the sinner when no one else would and said let he without sin cast the first stone. So if He who was without sin refused to judge the sinner but instead offered her understanding, forgiveness and unconditional love then why do so many people here feel that they can judge others? Follow the Lord’s example and you will accomplish with your love that which you will never accomplish with your hate. God Bless You!

Simcha,
I dislike echoing most of your other commenters, but must say “Thank You!” anyway.
Keep up the good work.
TeaPot562

People, please (sigh) - if we really want to reduce the number of abortions and change the hearts and minds of those folks who are Pro-choice, we must resist the easy high of self-satisfying smugness that comes from being right. I know because I was once adamantly Pro-Choice and the tone of this type of article would have turned me off (and away) completely. So, what does that mean?  Another conversion opportunity lost.  If just one Pro-Lifer had approached me with charity and kindness, I might have realized the error of my ways sooner.  When one finally did, I converted and my conversion actually came pretty quickly because the softness of her approach spoke to my heart.  Is this not the way of Our Lady?  I now return the favor by reaching out kindly, gently and respectfully to those who still embrace the Pro-Choice position.  I see them as good people who are lost.  We can bring them home by modeling Christian charity not by abandoning it.

I agree that it is idiotic for someone to be part of a Church that considers itself infallible if they disagree with that Church’s teachings. If a person is pro-choice, uses birth control, or believes that the world is round, he or she should leave the Catholic Church and go find a different Church that will teach grace and mercy and not authoritarian legalism. If everyone leaves the Church who has not repented of every sin before taking communion, there wont be anyone left to receive or administer the sacrament.

For most non-Catholics that I know, if they read this nasty article and the accompanying comments, they would say “That’s why I’m not a Catholic.” For Catholics frustrated by a Church that will only offer Communion to an exclusive group of people like them, I invite you to check out my denomination, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), which has an open table for all sinners who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and know they are not worthy except by His grace.

@Kate - you wrote “He did not tell people who disagreed with him about matters of public policy that they were worshiping an “idiot God.”

You are correct, I think the words Jesus used were “false gods” and “idols” Jesus didn’t lower the bar He raised it.  Jesus told the people “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell” Pretty harsh words wouldn’t you say? Somebody should have explained to Jesus that talk like that wasn’t going to win any converts, what nerve!!!  Then again I suppose this is why the people wanted to kill Jesus. Jesus was telling them to stop sinning and they didn’t like it then and they sure don’t like it now. Jesus said “He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; he who rejects me rejects him who sent me”  So I think peoples quarrel is really with God and not with Simcha, they may not like her choice of words but at the end of the day she is speaking the truth and trying to help people see the light.  Lastly Jesus said, “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you” I hope and pray that Catholics like Simcha will continue to have courage and stand up and speak the truth, if only one persons has a change of heart it’s worth it.  Eternity is a very long time….Peace in Christ.

@Mobile tree - from my understanding the Disciples of Christ only has one essential belief and that is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior and obey Him (but no definition of exactly what it means to obey Jesus) Disciples are not required to affirm any other beliefs or any specific interpretation of the Bible.  Doctrines are considered man made and divisive and because of this they are totally rejected and members can question or deny any beliefs they want to such as the Incarnation, the Trinity, the Atonement, free will etc. Beyond being Baptized and “obeying Jesus”  there really are no other essentials.  Would you say this is an accurate description of your church? If so it’s important for people to understand that you are coming from a faith system that pretty much has no requirements at all and leaves it up to each member to subjectively decide for themselves what sin is and how to truly follow Jesus.  In all honestly when you break it down it really seems like a church that says Jesus is whoever YOU think He is and once YOU decide who Jesus is follow Him in the way YOU find acceptable.  Am I wrong? Peace in Christ.

@sara - Sara while your approach might work with some people it won’t work with everyone.  There are some people who really need a jolt to get their attention.  For Paul it took a lightening bolt, blindness and Jesus speaking to him in an audible voice to get his attention.  Job had to be swallowed by a fish and vomited up after 3 days.  So (insert sigh here) I think both approaches can work, I just have to point out that Jesus approach was hardly subtle or warm and fuzzy, if it were they would not have killed Him right?  Peace in Christ.

@jt -  JT just so we are clear here you are saying that you are hoping for a Pope that will say that Abortion is no longer a sin?  Just curious why you feel such anger that the church teaches that killing babies in the womb is a sin?  Simcha is just pointing out the true teachings of the church, why so angry at her?

@Tony,

“Who are you to judge?” By the end of your comment, I was wondering that, myself, especially when you said, “Using this site to hurt others is a sin!”

Never forget that the angry words you say, today, may be tossed back, tomorrow.  Our God is and awesome and loving God.  He will love all, no matter their sins (that includes people like Charles Manson).  However, it is their SINS that will set them far away from our Lord, Jesus Christ. 

May God have mercy on the judges and the judged.

To all who think this article won’t soften any hearts, you are probably right, but I thought this article wasw aimed at Catholics who are choosing to ignore the teachings of the Church.  When people truly struggle to understand but obey anyway, that is one thing.  But so many people think they have the right to pick and choose which teachings they will obey.  Simcha is simply pointing out that when one does that his soul is in jeopardy.  And it’s not her opinion, it’s in the Catechism.

He may be an idiot, but we sure like Him. ;)

Chuck, I suppose that’s fairly accurate. We give everyone the freedom to believe as they choose as lOng as they are seeking Christ. And sorry, it’s the belief that the earth revolves around the sun, not that the world is round, for which Galileo was excluded, and the Church took hundreds of years to apologize for it.

Simcha…..do not be discouraged, and continue to speak the truth as you have here.  Of course the world will hate you, just as they hated the Son of God.  Clearly, your words are NOT meant for the atheists or even our separated Christian brothers and sisters, but for those who seem confused about what it means to BE a Roman Catholic.

If you support abortion, you cannot be Catholic…or….you are a Catholic who is carrying the stain of the most serious of mortal sins. Your very immortal SOUL is in danger.  Simcha is trying to save YOUR life by waking you up the presence of Satan in your heart and mind, deceiving you and damning you.

Yes, we are ALL sinners, but not all sins are equal in magnitude. Missing Mass because you are too tired is one sin, supporting the death of innocent human beings is quite another.  One is a few drops of poison, the other is a glass full flowing through your soul, heart, and mind.  Wake UP to the poison that is the inherent sin of murder, before it is too late.

And it’s not about believing whatever we want; it’s about allowing each person to seek God freely by prayer and the Holy Spirit and especially by the Scriptures, while trying to strip away a lot of the Church tradition that has been built up over time that we believe has just gotten in the way.

Mobile Tree,

That is called moral relativism.

Not an idiot God, but Moloch himself.

Tony,

To be sorry to have sinned requires one to admit that they sinned. Claiming murder is not a sin is unjust and requires correction. I know our effette culture cannot stand to hear the truth, but the truth exists whether we like it or not.

Posted by Mobile tree on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2012 7:10 AM (EST):

Chuck, I suppose that’s fairly accurate. We give everyone the freedom to believe as they choose as lOng as they are seeking Christ. And sorry, it’s the belief that the earth revolves around the sun, not that the world is round, for which Galileo was excluded, and the Church took hundreds of years to apologize for it.
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I do not want to go down that rabbit hole but if you want to try and refute Church history you have to start by stating it correctly.

Posted by Greg on Tuesday, Oct 2, 2012 1:46 PM (EST):
“@cowalker: On the topic of Simcha’s post and whether it serves the needs of such Catholics that approach the faith in this way, I believe the hope is that when the contradictions between their convictions and that of the God they profess to serve are made glaringly obvious, that perhaps a few will turn from them.” 

The contradictions are not between the convictions of pro-choice Catholics and the God THEY profess to serve. The God they profess to serve allows abortion in some circumstances. The contradiction is between the God envisioned by pro-choice Catholics and the God envisioned in official Catholic Doctrine. Simcha labels the pro-choice God an “idiot,” but this is not really fair. The pro-choice God is no more internally inconsistent than the Church’s God, which forbids murder but allows just wars and executions (which sometimes don’t look so just in the rear-view mirror.)

It seemss to me as though the true challenge for Catholics who accept Church authority is to figure out why many self-professed Catholics do not feel constrained by Church authority in their moral lives. If all the pro-choice Catholics changed their concept of God to a God that said abortion is a mortal sin, based on various arguments on the nature of abortion, you would still have large numbers of self-professed Catholics who felt free to shape their own concept of God independent of Church authority. I suspect this God would be OK with HBC, same sex marriage and remarriage after divorce. And He probably wouldn’t be extremely rigorous about mass attendance on Sunday and holy daysa of obligation, or annual confession.

Tony, Tony, Tony,

What Jesus said about not judging a person is too often held up, as in your comments, as not being able to judge BEHAVIOR. We are allowed to judge behavior. Admonishing the sinner is a spiritual work of mercy. 

What Jesus was talking about is not judging a persons eternal soul. Only He can do that. That is much different than judging a persons actions.

Yes, murder is a sin. Yes, sin is bad. Yes, truth is good. But hateful posts are wrong, hurting others with your words is wrong, being rude is wrong. Speaking in a loving, caring way is right, showing sinners forgiveness and love is right. The issue isn’t whether abortion is wrong, we know it is, the issue is how we deal with and speak to the woman who is thinking of undergoing or who has undergone an abortion, the issue is how we get men to take responsibility so women don’t get pregnant in the first place, the issue is what can we do to help women to keep their babies. Posting on this site is easy, doing God’s work is hard. God Bless You!

Simcha, can you re-do this post with audio. I was imagining the bellowing voice at the beginning of each point, followed by a puny mouse voice doing the “what the hell” part. Is that what you were going for? Hehe
When you get a slap in the face like this, it sure saves a lot of wasted pleasantries that I sometimes find in frustrating, brick-wall “dialogues”. Cut the c$&@ I say. A soul is at stake!
Great work again!

I can’t recall Jesus ever saying it’s anyone’s job to admonish the sinner but I can recall Jesus saying it’s everyone’s job to love the sinner and hate the sin. Too many “good Catholics” admonish sinner’s in an act of spiritual one-upmanship which is nothing less than the sin of pride.

God Bless You!

Tony, Of course we are supposed to love the sinner and hate the sin. However, if the sinner is never told about their sin (they may be ignorant of it), how are they supposed to become better christians? Charity is always in order and anyone who thinks they are “better” by pointing out someone else’s sins, is sinning themselves, as you said.

Posted by Tony on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2012 8:31 AM (EST):

Yes, murder is a sin. Yes, sin is bad. Yes, truth is good. But hateful posts are wrong, hurting others with your words is wrong, being rude is wrong. Speaking in a loving, caring way is right, showing sinners forgiveness and love is right. The issue isn’t whether abortion is wrong, we know it is, the issue is how we deal with and speak to the woman who is thinking of undergoing or who has undergone an abortion, the issue is how we get men to take responsibility so women don’t get pregnant in the first place, the issue is what can we do to help women to keep their babies. Posting on this site is easy, doing God’s work is hard. God Bless You!
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Tony, calling things “hate” that are not hateful is wrong.  You are using your private interpetation to call posts sins simply because you pefceive the tone as different than you would use. The problem is that different circumstances call for different techniques.

This essay is not unloving or gateful. Those have become political tools to silence others.

As for what Jesus said and did not say we have a living magisterium that speaks for Him. Instructing the ignorant and admonishment are from the Church which has the authority of Christ.

Posted by cowalker on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2012 8:29 AM (EST):
The contradictions are not between the convictions of pro-choice Catholics and the God THEY profess to serve. The God they profess to serve allows abortion in some circumstances. The contradiction is between the God envisioned by pro-choice Catholics and the God envisioned in official Catholic Doctrine. Simcha labels the pro-choice God an “idiot,” but this is not really fair. The pro-choice God is no more internally inconsistent than the Church’s God, which forbids murder but allows just wars and executions (which sometimes don’t look so just in the rear-view mirror.)
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This is absurd. The state has the authority from God to take a life. An innocent child murdered is always wrong and a different moral act. That is not inconsistent, but it does require thinking and logic.
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It seemss to me as though the true challenge for Catholics who accept Church authority is to figure out why many self-professed Catholics do not feel constrained by Church authority in their moral lives.
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The answer to that is as old as human nature. Non Serviam.

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If all the pro-choice Catholics changed their concept of God to a God that said abortion is a mortal sin, based on various arguments on the nature of abortion, you would still have large numbers of self-professed Catholics who felt free to shape their own concept of God independent of Church authority. I suspect this God would be OK with HBC, same sex marriage and remarriage after divorce. And He probably wouldn’t be extremely rigorous about mass attendance on Sunday and holy daysa of obligation, or annual confession.

************************************

Yes, that makes each of us a god. Nothing new here.

Tony,

Jesus certainly did talk about admonishing the sinner.  Read Matthew 18:15-19 for one example.

Mobile: “And sorry, it’s the belief that the earth revolves around the sun, not that the world is round, for which Galileo was excluded, and the Church took hundreds of years to apologize for it.”

Galileo was excluded for what? I do not believe he was excommunicated. Also, it was not his belief that the earth orbits the sun that the Church had issue with (although the Church was only following the consensus of the majority of what scientists believed back then), it was that Galileo then proceeded to make theological claims based on this fact that he really had no business doing.

Anon, do you and everyone else on here disagree with Paul Ryan’s budget, as the American bishops have?  All Catholics who support Paul Ryan’s budget serve an idiot god.

Posted by anon on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2012 9:06 AM (EST):

“‘It seemss to me as though the true challenge for Catholics who accept Church authority is to figure out why many self-professed Catholics do not feel constrained by Church authority in their moral lives.’
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“The answer to that is as old as human nature. Non Serviam.”

American Catholicism appears to me to have changed over my 60-year lifetime. I don’t remember people in the fifties and early sixties claiming to be Catholic while flatly rejecting Church authority. However if there’s nothing new to see here, traditional Catholics can just move along and stop fretting over the phenomenon of pro-choice Catholics.

cowalker,
I don’t remember folks rejecting much authority of any kind back in the 50’s & early 60’s. It was a different world then.

Mobile Tree,

This discussion regards Catholic beliefs on the taking of a life.  It does not really care about the politicians, only their laws that directly affect our right to serve God according the His teachings. 

At this point, I believe that Romney/Ryan are probably the lesser of the evils approaching the Oval Office.  That’s my political point of view, and the ONLY statement I will be making about it.  The rest of my belief on who should become president are no one’s business.

Have a nice day.

Yes Steveo, you are right to note Matthew but Jesus doesn’t say to admonish, He says “If another member of the church sins against you, go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone” Jesus instructs us to interact with others in a personal way and to be loving not harsh.

A little further on in the same passage Peter asks the Lord how many times he should forgive someone who sins against him and he asks the Lord if seven times is enough. Jesus replies “Not seven times, but, I tell you, seventy-seven times” (Matthew 18:21-22).

It’s not what we say, it’s how we say it. It’s not that it’s right to admonish, it’s that it’s better (in my humble opinion) to lead others to Jesus through loving, caring instruction and personal example.

God Bless You!

Posted by Mobile tree on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2012 9:38 AM (EST):

Anon, do you and everyone else on here disagree with Paul Ryan’s budget, as the American bishops have?  All Catholics who support Paul Ryan’s budget serve an idiot god
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The bishops have not disagreed with his budget, in fact, his own bishop as defended him.

Cowalker,

Was human nature different in 1950?

Tony,

“Harsh” is a matter of interpretation. Truth is hate to those who hate the truth.

Tony, I agree about being loving and charitable in how things are said.  You reach a point though where firm admonishment, as in verse 17 below, could make someone rethink what they are doing and finally repent. That is the purpose of admonishing the sinner. To get them to repent and get back to God. Eventually, firm admonishment has to occur, with the hope of repentance, wouldn’t you say? Look at Matthew 18:17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”

@Pattie, RN…..You stated…“If you support abortion, you cannot be Catholic…or….you are a Catholic who is carrying the stain of the most serious of mortal sins. Your very immortal SOUL is in danger.  Simcha is trying to save YOUR life by…..”.....by what, Pattie, calling God an Idiot?

@Simcha…..What WAS the point of this article?  For those Catholics not living under a rock, it is known that abortion is not supported by the Catholic Church - therefore one can call themselves a “Pro-Choice Catholic” - the title is meaningless.  For those Catholics living under a rock, they may not get internet service.

You took an obvious point and made it controversial by calling Our Lord an Idiot. For those who believe that they can be both Pro-Choice and Catholic - they are wrong - but they haven’t declared the existence of a secondary “idiotic” god.  They believe in God, the Father Almighty…..the Idiot.  The God who will meet ALL OF US on Judgement Day.

But you got tons of comments and cheers for this one - fantastic! For speaking the “hard truth”.  What was that hard truth again?  That the Church does not support abortion?  AS IF EVERYONE DIDN’T KNOW THAT ALREADY? Where was the satire, the sarcasm, the wit? I found the vulgarity - “women spreading their legs for an IUD”.  You would have done better creating one of those “meme” posters - A woman all in position with a household vacuum hose shoved between her legs…..as she reads a copy of the constitution.”.......Disgusting as that was to write - it does not compare to calling Our Lord an Idiot.

Perhaps you could do a series of articles:
Pro-Choice Catholics believe that Our Lord is an Idiot.
Pro-Gay Marriage Catholics can believe Our Lord is a Moron.
Catholics who’ve divorced and remarried = God as an Imbecile.

Kellyann,

The essay makes a point. It points out the foolishness and hypocrisy of claiming fidelty to our Lord while supporting murder. It makes it in a strong way. Now, I know that by today’s secular standard all that matters is how the tone is perceived. People will go on and on about the perceived tone more than the message. Why? Because the message is unwanted.

“Let he who has not sinned be the first to cast a stone”

I assume the author has confessed her sins before receiving communion every time too. Jesus never judged, curious how Catholics always seem to.

J,

What comes after the line you quote? By their fruits you will know them? That is a call to judge. Judge not souls but words and actions.

I also like how you judge while claiming one should not judge. Irony.

Tony, In a lofty, general, overarching way I agree with your soft words, cozy hugs, shoulder-to-cry-on kind of approach. Yes, I LOVE it when that approach is effective…Lol!—I have eight kids; two in their twenties and two in their teens. I have two who have not yet attained the age of reason. I can’t even begin to tell you how much I wish your Pollyanna world actually existed, or how soon the inmates would be running the asylum.  I also love them too much to let them eat cherry jello for dinner—or be understanding if they want to assert their right to do jello shots, and drive.
My oldest still talks about the time he got his first bare-bottom spanking.  I was walking down the hall and glanced through the window.  My toddler was standing in the middle of the lawn with a hose in his mouth, and his older brother was cranking the faucet on!  I did indeed yell—LOUD in fact!
On the way to school today, after we prayed our morning offering,my eight y.o. asked me why people can do such bad things, when life is a test, and those bad things mean you’re failing…(I’m not making this up to prove a point)  I told him that adults stop being simple and good when they forget putting God first and get greedy for owning lots of stuff, being important, and doing things based on what makes their bodies feel good. 
“Wow,that’s really stupid” he said. He marveled over how adults which seem smart can be dumb and I marveled over the simplicity of his profound wisdom.

Kellyann, Molech *IS* an idiot, even when he has his cute sheep’s clothing on. In my experience Satan never tries to sell us on Hell with his stinky hell-suit on.

Sara:  Although I understand where you’re coming from, I think you need to understand that when it involves the murdering of innocent human life, there is no way anyone can sit by with their hands raised to Heaven and pray that this all ends.  Of course, prayer is the most important part of undoing the evil of abortion. However, we are not winning the battle against abortion the way we are going—and it isn’t going to change.  Maybe you would have been turned off, but may have been others who might think twice!  This battle against abortion has gone way beyond prayer and being nicey-nice about it.  We have to ACTIVELY fight this malignancy—just like you don’t sit passively by and pray for a cure for cancer—you DO something about it.  Christian charity is important, but Christian Charity does not mean that we soften the blows of sin, but we shout it to the rooftops!  These are souls we’re fighting for!  We’re not out there trying to make friends!  The fight against the barbaric act of abortion needs to be aggressively fought and with no apologies to those who might be offended!  We are dealing with innocent human life!  I don’t care, quite frankly, what anyone else thinks about me because of my absolutely and totally defiant stand against abortion. We can liken it to the Jewish Holocaust.  German people stood by and allowed six million+ lives to be taken in the most horrendous ways possible.  This is inexcusable. I’m not going to get into a debate as to whether or not these people knew or didn’t know about what was happening in these concentration camps.  Some knew very well what was going on.  Many today know very well what is going on in abortion mills.  We simply cannot pussie foot around anymore.  We have seen the destruction of over 50 million+ unborn human lives…how much more do we have to witness?  We have to make it crystal clear to the men and women we put in political office that we are NOT going to tolerate nor vote for anyone who is pro-abortion or who chooses to take the real coward’s way by straddling the fence (“Oh, I’m personally opposed, but….”).  We have to get the message out loud and clear with NO ambiguity!  And, if some find that offensive or it “turns them off”, well, too bad.  We’re not trying to win a beauty contest here.  Plain and simple.

Mobile Tree: You said: “For most non-Catholics that I know, if they read this nasty article and the accompanying comments, they would say “That’s why I’m not a Catholic.” For Catholics frustrated by a Church that will only offer Communion to an exclusive group of people like them, I invite you to check out my denomination, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), which has an open table for all sinners who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and know they are not worthy except by His grace.”

Two points:  To your first comment:  I say, OH WELL.  The Catholic Church is not a church of multiple choice.  You either believe all of her tenets or you don’t.  It’s that simple. We are not in the business of “selling” the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not water down the teachings of Jesus Christ to appease those who find them too difficult or too constraining.  Too bad. 

To your second comment:  Your church is probably very lovely and I don’t doubt that you and the rest of the church’s members have a great love for Jesus Christ.  However, your church, like it or not, is not the True Church founded by Jesus Christ.  Sorry. 

I’m quite fatigued by having to justify the Church’s teachings and why the Church teaches this and why she teaches that.  I’m not going to apologize for being a Catholic or for believing in the Truths the Catholic Church as stood by since Our Lord walked this earth.  If you don’t like it, then go find another church.  But, you will never belong to the Church founded by Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ unless you belong to the Catholic Church.  Period.

@anon
“The essay makes a point. It points out the foolishness and hypocrisy of claiming fidelty to our Lord while supporting murder.”

How does calling God an Idiot further this cause?

Kellyann: I don’t think “idiot god” was intended to be used toward the True God.  That’s why the “g” in God should never be capitalized unless referring to the One, True, God.  He alone deserves the capital “G”!

@Sister Teresa Peter…“This battle against abortion has gone way beyond prayer and being nicey-nice about it.  We have to ACTIVELY fight this malignancy—just like you don’t sit passively by and pray for a cure for cancer—you DO something about it.”

Your statements intrigue me, Sister.  I have a few questions, if you don’t mind. 
1.  My daughter has a cancerous brain tumor of a very rare variety.  Could you please tell me how you personally are actively doing something about a cure ? I agree that we are way beyond prayer.
2.  Abortion - again - way beyond prayer.  When I was 17, my mother took me to an eye specialist located in a large medical bldg. Never having been there before, and half blinded by the sun because of eye drops, you can imagine my surprise when a man grabbed my mother - screaming about abortion and death.  I was struggling to get away from 2 women frantically trying to save me.  When it became obvious we were going to enter the bldg. anyway, we were pelted with tomatoes. When we reached my doctor, we were told that an OBGYN who performed abortions had recently moved into the bldg.  Is this what you mean by “active” Sister, or did you have something else in mind?

J:  Jesus never judged??  You need to go back to the Scriptures and read them all—not just passages your pastor has you memorize.  Jesus made judgements all throughout His public life.  That is precisely why He was put to death.  The Pharisees and Sadducees would not be judged by a mere Nazarene Carpenter!  Let’s not forget the parting words of Our Lord to the adultress:  “GO, AND SIN NO MORE.”  That’s what so many so-called Christians and Catholics do not get.  It’s a very simple concept.  SIN NO MORE…or at least TRY not to!

Kellyann (and all who have said something similar to what she said in response to anon): i.e., “How does calling God an Idiot further this cause?”
Someone’s god could be wealth, possessions, fame, sexual gratification, power or some other thing. Those are false gods. They are not the true God. Each one of those things may, when established as a god, be called an idiot or any other derogatory term without insulting the true God one whit. Watch out for scrupulosity. To Sister Theresa Peters and all the other supporters of Simcha, all I can say is, “WOW, Good Job!” Simcha, keep it up you have a special gift that brings blessings to so many.

@Sister Teresa Peter….I agree with the lower case g.  And yet the title, the article….no edits were made.  Do you not think that a Big Splashy Title Calling GOD an IDIOT makes people stop to read?  Regardless of irreverence?

Kellyann: I am not going to dignify your questions with answers.  You know exactly what I meant.

Kellyann: Your question about using the lower case “g” for God in this article boils down to whether or not it would attract readers.  I, for one, believe that honoring God is far more important than trying to attract readers.  But, that’s just me.  Maybe that’s why I’m not a journalist.  I would understand better if she used the capital G in the title, but then in the article itself, reverted to the lower case g.  My opinion is just as I stated yesterday: Simcha probably did not know the Tradition of capitalizing any word which refers to God, Jesus, and the Church, including pronouns referring to God, Jesus, the Blessed Sacrament, etc.

@Sister, yes, I know what you meant - lip service.  As if ordinary people can go around curing cancer.  You ask me to watch my words - I suggest you watch yours.

@New Catholic….if the way we refer to god means nothing - why were you careful with your capitalization?

New Catholic:  Thank you for the compliment. When it comes to defending the unborn and the Catholic Church, I can be quite aggressive.  I’m so tired of “apologizing” for my belief in the Church and her teachings. If people want to believe otherwise, no one is chaining them to the Church.  That is why we have over 200,000 different sects of Christianity today.  I ask them: Which one contains the Deposit of Faith?  None of them. Only the Catholic Church contains all of the Truths of Jesus Christ.  You don’t believe that?  So be it.  No one is chaining you to the Catholic Church door.  That is why God gave us the gift of free will.  He will never interfer with that.  If we go to hell, we go because that is what we chose in life.

@ Sister, apparently we were writing at the same time, so I will apologize for my last flippant response to you.  However, with all sincerity I ask you, Sister, - Simcha is an educated woman, steeped in the “business” of being Catholic - through her writing - as well as living a Catholic life.  Please, Sister, please don’t tell me you actually believe that she was unaware of the importance of how one refers to Our Lord.

Kellyann: NWAR.  Again, you know what I meant.

Sister, I have no idea what NWAR is.

Kellyann says, @New Catholic….if the way we refer to god means nothing - why were you careful with your capitalization?
Kellyann, because I had time to think about it and maybe Simcha would do it differently if she were to write today after some of the criticism. But more that having had the chance to think about it, I do not tend to assume the worst when someone else makes a minor error. While I am the least likely to know God’s thoughts, I suspect it is possible even God didn’t notice. As I said, watch out for scrupulosity.

Kellyann: I also apologize.  I do not in anyway mean to imply that Simcha does not know her Catholic Faith.  I believe she does and I am very grateful for her articles—which I have read for the past 2 years.  All I wanted to point out is that I was always taught (by the good, old-fashioned Sisters of St. Joseph) that we always capitalize the names of Jesus, Mary, Holy Spirit, and God.  We also were taught to capitalize all the pronouns which refer to God, Jesus, and the Blessed Sacrament.  (For example: We would capitalize “It” when referring to the Blessed Sacrament.)  We were also taught to bow our heads a little at the Name of Jesus.  I don’t see that in kids anymore—even those kids who go to good Catholic schools.  So much of our Catholic “manners” have been lost.  Do you know that Jews will not spell out the complete word “God” when writing?  They usually write “G-d” because they have such a reverence for God’s Holy Name.  We should at least try to match that in some small way.  Don’t you think?

Again, I apologize if I offended you in anyway.  That was not my intention.

I meant “more than having…”

Kellyann:  Sorry.  NWAR stands for “Not worth a response.”

@Sister, I completely agree with what you refer to as our “Catholic Manners”.  That is what disappoints me so much about this article.  An articulate, educated, devote writer who seemingly used the word Idiot for the sheer purpose of sensationalism. 
Through the chapel at Children’s Hospital, my daughter and I have gotten very close with several SSJ nuns.  We love them.  As a child, I was taught by IHM nuns - who made children stand in the trash basket for much less-grave grammatical “mistakes” than this one.  In HS, I was taught by the Sisters of St. Basil the Great.  I have respect, Sister, and I do not believe a Catholic blog is the place where we should find “tabloid-like” headlines.

Kellyann:  Sister of St. Basil?  Wow…that order is rare!  I think maybe I must have misunderstood your early comments—and for that, I apologize again.  I think we’re actually on the “same page”!  It sounds as though you’ve had a rough go of it.  I guess we all have our Crosses to bear.  I don’t know what Simcha’s intentions were in writing this article.  Perhaps she was trying to attract attention to a very important issue, I don’t know.  As a teacher for over 25 years (and a principal for 7), it breaks my heart to see children—and adults—who show more courtesy to their friends than they do to their Creator and Savior.  Genuflecting in front of the Blessed Sacrament seems to have gone by the wayside as well.  The way people dress for Mass on Sundays is another one of my pet peeves.  When I lived in Florida many years ago, I’ll never forget this young man who came to Sunday Mass, walking in the Communion line with SHORT shorts, flip-flops on his feet, and a tank top.  I always ask if he were invited to dine with the Queen of England, he wouldn’t be allowed in the door dressed like that!  How much more should we show reverence for our God and Creator?  When we have no reverence for God, why should we have any reverence for anything else? 

If you would include your daughter’s name (first name only or a nick-name), I will include her in my daily prayers.  (You too!)  God bless you!

I don’t know if this is allowed on this website, but you absolutely MUST watch this video.  It made me cry.  Send it to everyone you know. 

http://catholiclane.com/viral-video-mom-of-seven-impacts-the-nation/

@Chuck, I really like everything you wrote.  Your posts were thoughtful and intelligent.  Your subtle use of humor proved an excellent point. But because you mistakenly wrote “Job” instead of “Jonah”, I’m going to have to discount all of your credibility, and all those amazingly good points you made.  What kind of a cheap theologian are you?

Sister Terese Peter,
I think we’re on the same page regarding showing reverence in our dress & manners, especially when in church or referring to the Lord in our speech.But truthfully, the first thing that came to mind reading your post was how wonderful that clueless young people in shorts & beach attire still will take the time to attend Mass & receive Communion.

@Sister, I most gratefully accept your prayers - my daughter is Tara.  I too have been a teacher - with so many Catholic school closures here, it is difficult to break into administration, but I’m trying.  I do not believe our children are receiving the education or Catholic preparation that “once was”.
I am glad,Sister, that we are on the same page.  I was once given wise advice. “Do not argue with a Nun, you will never win”.  I imagine you can guess who gave me that advice.
Have a good day, Sister.

Jesus judged (often called folks hypocrites).  Jesus discriminated (he separated sinners from the righteous, and went and ate with them!  Also, recall his parable of the goats and sheep).  Jesus was intolerant (telling the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more…..How dare He!!). 

Jesus was not some wishy washy teacher that accepted people’s sinful behavior.  Last week’s gospel was very clear and direct:  If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out.  If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off…..

Kellyann:  Yes, your point about the young man is a beautiful point. I do not blame the young man—or the people today who come to Mass dressed inappropriately.  That blame belongs to the priests and bishops who have allowed this kind of lackadaisical attitude and dress to continue.  Now, there is no going back. As a teacher, you probably know that at the beginning of a school year, you hold the reigns short and tight.  If you start out loosey-goosey, you will never have control.  You can, however, ease up as the school year progresses. 

Personally, I prefer the classroom over the principal’s office.  Although I am a very good administrator, my true love is in the classroom with my favorite age group 6th through 9th graders. I will pray for you and your daughter.  You carry a heavy Cross.  God bless you!

Has anyone discussed the truth of the essay? People seem more interested in the tone, or parsing each word, then they are in the point of it all.

Also, she did not call our Lord an idiot. She pointed out that the false god we mistakenly worship must be an idiot for the reasons she gave.

Anon:  Of course I’ve read the entire article.  And, if YOU read my earlier comment, you would have seen that I addressed the fact that the points she makes are SPOT-ON.  My only suggestion was that Catholic journalists should try to use proper Catholic manners in their writing.  I thought I made that point very clear.

Thank you, Sister, but I have to give credit to “Kathleen” - we posted at the same time, and it was she who pointed out about the young man in church.  I am probably not as gracious as Kathleen, and would be thinking to myself that the least he could do would be to put on some shoes!
Your students are lucky to have you, Sister.
@Kathleen, I will try to look at my fellow congregants more as “present” instead of thinking…“Couldn’t you at least IRON the shirt?”  Thank you for the unexpected insight.

Anon:  If one is Catholic, there is only one God.  That is why the statement “I am a Pro-Choice Catholic” can not be true. But, self-proclaimed Pro-Choice Catholics do not have a separate Bible.  They do not claim a separate God.  The God of whom they speak is the One True God representative of the Catholic Faith.  The error is in their reasoning that they can choose to be Pro-Choice and still fulfill their obligations as a Catholic.  That does not make God an Idiot or create a separate “Idiot God”.  It simply makes those people wrong.

Kellyann,

Are you serious? The writer is just using a device to point out the absurdity of their position.

Sister Terese,

I was not meaning you, but was addressing so many comments that seemed to criticize the author.

Kellyann is exactly correct.  One simply cannot deny one of the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church and then say that they are Catholic!  You either believe all of the Church’s teachings, or you simply are not a Catholic.  And, a little known fact (unfortunately) is that the Church teaches dogmatically that if a person in any way, shape or form, has an abortion, contributes to someone having an abortion (overtly or covertly), even driving a woman to an abortion clinic, is IPSO FACTO excommunicated.  That does not mean that a priest or bishop will publicly announce that one is excommunicated, although they SHOULD publicly proclaim people like Pelosi, Kennedy, et al excommunicated because these folks openly and publicly deny the Church’s teachings on abortion and contraceptives.  They are, correctly, labeled as public sinners.  As a public sinner, the penalty is a public proclamation of excommunication. Why?  Remember what Jesus said to the public sinner when He said, “It would be better for him to have never been born.”  Because public sinners and their actions could be the catalyst for causing great scandal in others—and even for causing others to follow them in their sin—which is what is happening right now.  It used to be that if a woman had an abortion (or someone aided in her getting the abortion) she could not simply go to confession to receive absolution.  She had to go to her local Bishop!  That is how serious the sin of abortion is.  Why the Church has changed that (you can now go to any priest in confession), I don’t know.  But that is the way it was before up until the early 80’s I believe.

Kellyann,
At a former parish, we had a group of summer exchange students from Spain who would arrive en masse in some seriously skimpy attire.It was partly cultural, & partly because the old school building that housed them had no AC whatsoever-& this was in the South.They’d arrive at church all sweaty with their clothes clinging to them.We didn’t know that the for- profit outfit that housed them for their summer “cultural experience” in the states was too cheap to provide air conditioning.I feel sorry for those poor kids having to deal with that & the looks they got from the congregation.We don’t always get the whole story, just a first & often faulty impression.

Sister Terese and Kellyann seem to be arguing with themselves. The author is pointing out the absurdity of the positions held by heterodox Catholics. She is doing that through a literary device.

As for your assertion about Catholics. One can be an excommunicated Catholic, a heterodox Catholic, a dissenting Catholic, or many or descriptors. If baptized their soul in ontologically changed forever.

The excommunication is a point of canon law, not Dogma. But,what has that to do with the essay?

I find the tone of some of these comments disheartening.  Can we all remember the profound lesson of Luke 23:34 wherein Christ, at the precise moment of Crucifixion, actually petitions God on behalf of those who crucify him: “Father, forgive them, they know not what the do.” Does this cry not exemplify Christian mercy and charity?  Pope Benedict XVI himself emphasizes the centrality of these virtues to Christian understanding in his radio address of Feb. 15, 2012.  Should we not strive to embody these virtues as we are so instructed in 1825 of the Catechism?  “... charity is patient and kind, ... it [charity] is not arrogant or rude… Charity does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.  Charity bears all things…”  Should we do any less when confronted with the errant ways of our brothers and sisters who believe abortion is acceptable?  We must correct them with charity.  We must pray, on their behalf, for their conversion. We should not delight in our own faithfulness lest we devolve into self-satisfying self-righteousness.

I’m confused about why a large number of people are focusing on the tone of this essay. If you are a regular reader of Simcha, then the “tone” should not surprise you or offend you.  The point of this essay is genius.  Simcha is pointing out how ludicrous and nonsensical it is to be pro-choice, but claim to be Catholic.  For the Catholic pro-choicer, that is all Catholicism can be…an empty claim. The Church’s moral doctrine is the heart of our faith.  To deny doctrine is to discredit the Church and ultimately discredit an entire history worth-we’re talking centuries worth-of God revealing His will.  We can not afford to tolerate the behavior of those who claim publicly to be Catholic, but refuse to align themselves with Church teaching. Misrepresenting the Church is damaging and breeds scandal.  Know why the Church teaches what She teaches.  If you can’t accept Church doctrine, please, at the very least, conduct yourself in a manner respectful toward Church doctrine, representing Church teachings truthfully even when you don’t agree. The Church is not a democracy, where we can vote on the latest “flavor of the day.”  Nor will it ever be.  The Church is solely concerned with truth and there is only one truth, to be accepted or rejected.  The Church should be the one place we can all rest, without worrying about what is right or wrong or defending our position on moral issues.  What is morally right or wrong is laid out for us loud and clear within Church doctrine.  No questions asked.

@Kathleen, I agree.  This is why we must choose our battles. Length of skirt… baby at the end of a suction hose? Some things just take time, patience, and a “live and let live” attitude.  Others can’t wait.  A couple of years ago I was in L.A., and went to mid-week, noon mass.  The temp was about 110 F.  I was suffering from something very painful.  My husband came home to care for the kids so I could go to mass.  I stopped first in the old mission graveyard, asking the friars by name to please pray for my intention.  At mass, I noticed a middle aged man who would not stop casting disapproving looks in my direction.  When mass was over he left his wife, striding up to me like he had some bad news.  I suddenly figured it out.  He was looking me up and down in my baggy, calf length dress.  Yup, it had straps.  Sinful straps! Bra straps peeking ever so slightly from behind those sinful straps! (Usually I try to color coordinate my bras if they are going to show at all behind straps, but alas, I don’t own a purple bra.) He made a gesture toward my body, saying “Your dress…” to which I gestured toward *his body* and quickly replied, “your polo shirt…”  He finally looked at my eyes.  They were clearly indicating that I wasn’t going to be his next morality attack.  He turned on his heel and left.
Yes, that church was mostly empty that day. I might have been the youngest person there (I’m 46).  No, I have not confessed to wearing my baggy purple dress, and I don’t plan on it. I wasn’t lacking in taste or respect in the least, except perhaps for the beads of perspiration rolling down my back.

Anon,  Other than a computer, what device was used?

anna lisa,
Yes, St. Faustina wrote in her diary something about how when faced with a question or how to approach something, to seek the answer from love & she’d always find the right way.
I know I need to try & remember that, too when reacting to things.
The older I get, the more I see the truth in “Life is short, be kind.”

ANNA LISA, so are you 100% sure he was going to chastise you about the dress?

@G Willie, the dress was nice enough to be nice, bur not nice enough for him to want one for his wife.  I’ll risk the time in purg. to say I know a rebuke when I’m getting one…

I guess this will win “most off-topic comment”.  Simcha, you made Christmas come early yesterday.  My husband was writhing in the throes of what turns out to be his first kidney stone last night.  When he said he couldn’t even watch TV, I thought, “Wow, this poor guy really is in labor.”  I cleared the troops, turned into a nurse commando, but the poor guy was miserable.  When I had the inspiration to read him your column his groans turned to groan-laughter.

Anna Lisa, how did you know he didn’t want one for his wife?

It seems like no matter what anyone says here, there is someone else who is going to take exception to it.  It seems to me that the people who are most annoyed with me (and maybe some others) are probably not well versed in the History and/or Traditions of the Church.  I guess we live in different worlds now.  It seems to me that many of the responders here are more concerned about a person being insulted than when God is insulted.  To expect Catholics to come to Mass dressed properly and modestly seems to translate into being hypocritical and judgmental to some.  I got the message. So be it.  God bless you all.

@Kathleen, I love S.Faustina’s Diary.  I’m also comforted by the remembrance that even she, a saint, had a tough time of it with dirty-faced kids who had snotty noses.  I guess I’m a bit like Mother Angelica in that regard.  She was always relieved when she caught Saints being really human.  She was really nice,kind and understanding,TO A POINT! (Have you read Raymond Arroyo’s book?)—I will NEVER forget the day that sweet faced, plump little nun, took on an Archbishop of L.A. That’s when she landed in a bit of hot water, but took on the color of a Folk Hero in my book.

@Ground Willy, uuuuh, were you by chance doing some groundskeeping in San Gabriel a couple of years ago? ;)
@Sister, I totally agree with you, people should come to mass dressed with the utmost of respect for Our Lord.

@Sister, I don’t usually dress like that for mass.  Our climate tends to be on the cool side here.  BTW, just a thought, have you ever seen the photos of the alleged visionaries of Rwanda?  I wouldn’t base an argument on it but the girl who had the vision of the impending massacre was indeed dressed for that hot, African climate. 
.
To be perfectly honest Sr., I believe that you will get more traction with people if you choose your battles extremely wisely.

Posted by anon on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2012 10:27 AM (EST):
“Cowalker, Was human nature different in 1950?”

Nope. So if your point is that the Catholic Church shouldn’t worry about self-professed Catholics who are pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, pro-HBC, pro-divorce and remarriage, pro-Sunday sleep-ins instead of mass attendance, and pro-receiving the Eucharist in what official Church doctrine calls a state of mortal sin because such Catholics have always played a prominent public role in Catholic life, I have nothing more to say. That’s not how I remember it, but memory can play tricks. I guess you would advise NCR columnists to quit worrying about it, since it’s nothing new.

Lisa S.—I don’t know if you’ll see this because your last comment was yesterday. I wanted to say how sorry I am for your loss. Also, I’m sorry that some one else chose to bring up your intimate relationship with your husband, but since it’s already out there… I hope you won’t mind my saying that I think it’s extremely admirable that you have chosen the sacrifice of celibacy. I think about one in a million couples would be capable of that level of self-sacrifice. Have you heard about Marquette University’s new method of NFP? I just recently started using it, and it’s extremely easy and fool-proof. You use test strips similar to taking a pregnancy test. It’s expensive up front because you have to buy a $150 monitor and the test strips are a little pricey, but there’s no analyzing temperatures or symptoms. We have a serious reason to postpone and possibly stop having babies, and this method makes me feel much more certain about fertile and infertile times than I did with the sympto-thermal method. I was moved by your story and I’m hoping that this info could help. God bless.
Here’s the website:
http://nfp.marquette.edu/

For everyone who thinks that Simcha doesn’t strike the right tone with this article, please consider that everyone is different and is reached in different ways. Some people only respond to gentle nudging. There are other articles for them. Some people need a verbal slap in the face. This article is for them. We need to let people use their own gifts in their own style, so they can reach the people that they’re meant to reach. If this particular style makes some people uncomfortable, well, we’re talking about murder. How comfy do you want to make things?

@JDKing - You are correct, I did inadvertently type Job instead of Jonah.  In my defense I was typing that response well after 0200 in the morning.  We have 3 infants that rotate day/swing/night shifts and I am not even sure if I am awake and typing this right now.  I can only hope that over time my credibility as a Theologian will be restored.  On the bright side someone actually read one of my posts, things are definitely looking up….

Ms Fisher’s post shows us that using disgusting language gets a lot of attention, a lot of of blood boiling, a lot of people posting. As a blogger she just rose up the blogger ranks a bit, but at what cost to civility? At what cost to reverence? At what cost to the faith? If she used the same kind of language to describe Allah she would get her name on a list she would not want to be on! But we’re Catholics, we let people call God names, we even defend them! It’s amazing to see so-called good Catholics defending someone who defamed their God. God Bless You!

@Tony…“she just rose up the ranks…..but at what cost to reverence?”
I agree, but we (or at least me) are dismissed as being nit-picky grammar fiends.  I really don’t understand why more people aren’t shaken by the “ends justify the means” template used to write the article.  Abortion and issues of “Catholic Choice” are not new.  They remain issues of grave concern, and apparently some people now think that anything goes.  I imagine more articles to follow (not necessarily by Simcha) with a “no holds barred” flavor.  Strong language is one thing; boorish, crude and rude language is a separate issue.  I don’t know why that is so unimportant to a Faith-filled People who are supposed to be “taking the high road”.

I think that the tone of the post is very adequate. Simcha shows the drama that is the history of salvation and the extreme degree of sacrifice that God puts in saving humanity from its sins. So if you believe that being pro choice is an inconsistency that deserves the idiot adjective at least. It is more intellectually consistent to be just agnostic and pro choice (or atheist). Or to conceive a God that has not done any sacrifice for us and therefore does not require any sacrifice from us.

Actually the god she is calling an idiot is a god that does not exist for Catholics, it is a god that puts a lot of effort into the conversion of human hearts and then says but if you don’t like to convert do as you please. So maybe the pro choice people should be offended, but their god allows abortion so a little name calling for sure will not offend him.

Hey Kellyann,

I totally agree with you! Loved your posts earlier today but could not jump in to help because I was at the local hospital visiting the sick and taking the Body of Christ to them. Not blowing my own horn here, just noting that there’s more to being a good Catholic than just sitting at a keyboard. You were treated pretty badly by some on here but you are right. The problem I see is that Catholics defend Ms. Fisher when she uses disgusting language and yet they skewer you and me when we say that using a word like “idiot” to refer to God is wrong. It’s hard to believe that you had to defend yourself to a supposed “Sister” who was hell-bent on putting you down, even to the point that she said your question was “not worth a response”! That doesn’t sound like any of the good sisters I had in school!

God Bless You!

Ps. I’ll keep you, your daughter Tara and the rest of your family in my prayers.

I think when you remove all the justification excuses we make to avoid Truth, what’s left is this article, a hard hitting reality. The first time you cheat on a test is nerve-racking. The 100th time you cheat has 100 reasons for it to become an exception and it becomes easier to execute. I don’t think pro-choice Catholics worship an idiot God, but rather wish they WERE God and instead of humbling themselves for wisdom, they exalt themselves by changing wisdom. And again, the more they wish they were God, they really think what they make up is real. Great article.

Tony and rest: Do you seriously don’t get that she isn’t calling God an idiot since the god she is describing is the total opossite to the true God? That’s the whole point of the post! That wathever it is that they claim to worship is not God. She’s trying to point out the absurdity of it. Even with the misplaced capital G’s it is crystal clear. She didn’t just wake up feeling like call Our Father an idiot and wrote this post.

tony,35yrs of dialogue and now we have the most avid supporter of abortion in the WH. AND he is there because of the “catholic” vote. that is what turns my stomach the most!!!! Hot or cold, tony!!! ur lukwarm pablum makes me want to vomit. he could’nt have won in ‘08 and he can’t in Nov. without us!!! Never mind blogers telling it like it is, we need Bishops right now to stand up and say explicitly that if u vote for a candidate who supports any intrinsic evil u r committing a mortal sin and risk eternal damnation!!! to their credit some have but way too few. we have to call out dolan and tell him he need to step up and shepard his flock and protect us from the wolves in sheeps clothing right inside our flock. Simcha, your sarcastic humor had just the right touch of irony! these people r dispicable and deserving of all our contempt, amen

@Rich, there seems to be two issues going on here. 1.  The issue of people referring to themselves/believing that they can be Catholic and Pro-Choice.  If you prefer name-calling over issues - then call these people idiots and whatever else you feel is appropriate.  2.  The article can even be about their dissidence with the Church.  How does the creation of an “Idiot God” make the Pro-Choice point weaker, or the Pro-Life movement stronger?
They disagree with the teachings of the Church - therefore believe they are members of the Church - not of some brand-new “Cult of the Idiot God”.
As you want to “call out dolan” (just one more example of not affording a member of the Church the courtesy of a proper title).  Are you going to ask him to refer to God as an Idiot in regard to “Pro-Choice Catholics”?
Do you not see that it only clouds the issue to pull a new god out of thin-air?
@Tony, Thanks for your post - I think Sister and I have set things straight regarding our views. I believe we were writing and posting on top of each other for a while, and therefore our answers were not necessarily in-sync.
Have a good day.

Hey Rich,

At the risk of making you sick, what you call my “lukwarm pablum” is nothing less than spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ. Our Lord didn’t come to spread hate or scorn or disdain or admonishment - He came to show us that God’s unconditional love conquers all.

Your point about the need for Bishops to take a stand and lead the flock is on point but you disrespect Cardinal Dolan while making your point - sort of like what Ms. Fisher did when she used vulgar language to make her point.

I appreciate your disgust with Pres. Obama’s support of abortion and I share your disgust but frankly I have a hard time voting for Mitt Romney too. Among other things, Mormons believe that the Garden of Eden was somewhere in Missouri, that Jesus was the oldest of God’s children, that He came to the US after His death and that the Catholic Church is not the one true church - Mormons believe that God restored the early church through the work of Joseph Smith who received golden plates from the Angel Moroni which he then translated because they were written in a secret language into the Book of Mormon. Wow!

God Bless You!

Tony, if I may ‘butt’ in here. You stated: “Our Lord didn’t come to spread hate or scorn or disdain or admonishment - He came to show us that God’s unconditional love conquers all.” Jesus did not come to spread hate, but he certainly did plenty of admonishment. He also stated that He did not come to bring peace, but the sword, pitting mother against daughter, father against son, because He knew that He was a ‘sign of contradiction’ and that there would be those who believed in Him and those who did not, even within families, which would cause strife.

Love does conquer all- but Love does not mean wishy-washy, misplaced compassion. If you do read the Gospels carefully, you would see that Our Lord was very strong and did not mince words or beat around the bush. He told the Truth, no matter how hard the sayings may have been at times.

Yes, Mitt Romney’s religion is very strange and not Christian, however, do you really plan to vote for Obama? He and his policies are so anti-Christian/Catholic, whereas, contrary to what the media would like you to believe, Romney and his policies are much more in line with Catholic teaching, even if only somewhat. Romney certainly is the lesser of 2 evils.

Posted by Groundskeeper Willie on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2012 4:13 PM (EST):ANNA LISA, so are you 100% sure he was going to chastise you about the dress?”
*******************************
I think most women have good intuition about things like this, but your post reminds me we also should be cautious about what we read into other folk’s intentions.

Hey Joan,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts but I don’t think that compassion is wishy-washy or misplaced, it’s compassion and lots of people need it.

Yes the New Testament notes that Our Lord made strong statements about the need to believe and follow Him but He made many more statements about the need to love.

The lesser of two evils? At this point it’s hard to say. Obamacare is in fact in line with much of Catholic Social Teaching except for the Abortion issue of course but then again his economic performance has been appalling and we all need jobs. Romney would seem to be the better choice from an economic point of view but he will raise spending on the military which we don’t need to do - we could use that money to feed the hungry, he will gut Medicare which helps so many elderly and disabled Americans and he doesn’t care for the poor at all. So yes it is a choice between the lesser of two evils but if your choice is solely based on which man is the better Christian then I think we need to look at what the candidates believe as well as what they say they will do. At this point I’m still not sure which of these two I’m going to vote for!

God Bless You!

Tony said: “I appreciate your disgust with Pres. Obama’s support of abortion and I share your disgust but frankly I have a hard time voting for Mitt Romney too. Among other things, Mormons believe that the Garden of Eden was somewhere in Missouri, that Jesus was the oldest of God’s children, that He came to the US after His death and that the Catholic Church is not the one true church - Mormons believe that God restored the early church through the work of Joseph Smith who received golden plates from the Angel Moroni which he then translated because they were written in a secret language into the Book of Mormon. Wow!”

I’m not a huge fan of Mitt’s (although I like him a lot better after last night’s debate!) but you’re comparing Obama’s enthusiastic support of abortion with some of Mitt’s Mormon beliefs? You don’t really find it hard to pick one over the other just because Mitt thinks Jesus came to the Native Americans and Joseph Smith translated the golden plates by looking into his hat, do you? What a strange comparison to make…

Re. Mitt Romney:
As a Catholic, I really don’t appreciate remarks about Mr Romney’s faith.Many of our ancestors came here for religious freedom.Their beliefs may have seemed odd to others as well.
I’m more concerned about a candidate’s voting record & the platform of the party they’re running on.

Kathleen, personally I do not think a persons religious faith really matters much in Presidential races. However, you have to admit, don’t you think it’s strange that Mormons think Jesus came from another planet, I forget what they called it, and that they believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers? Criticizing a religions beliefs does not go against religious freedom,and one is not advocating making Mormonism illegal; however, shutting down a person making the critique goes against free speech.

Not all religions or cultures are equally good.

Tony, I appreciate your comments. I said that MISPLACED compassion is wishy-washy and I speak from my own experience. In an effort to not offend someone, I have been guilty of showing misplaced compassion by simply trying to act understanding instead of compassionately speaking the truth, even though it may have hurt. I was being wishy-washy, for lack of a better word. Compassion in and of itself is not wishy washy, unless it is used to avoid telling the painful truth.

Not so sure that ObamaCare is in line with much of Catholic Social Teaching. It is my understanding that he wants the government to provide free healthcare to all. Don’t see how that falls in with the Church’s teaching on subsidiarity, where assistance should come first and foremost from the most local levels, including family, church and local community. Same with other care for the poor and needy with regard to food, clothing and shelter. The Fed should not take our responsibility to care for these out of our hands.

Here is an interesting article: http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=550

God Bless

Joanp62 ,
Sure,I believe differently than Mormons do.Their theology is a puzzlement to me, but think of how Jews look at our beliefs?
The election is not about a candidate’s religion but what kind of a leader he is & which direction he will lead us to.

Kathleen, the Jews do not see our beliefs as all that different from theirs. At least not the Jews that I have spoken with. After all, they call it Judeo/Christian. They do see how the Catholic Church came from Judaism. They also see how our Mass is based on Jewish worship in many ways. The point I am trying to make, is that of all the most prominent religions in this country, Mormonism does seem to be the strangest. You yourself admit that their theology is puzzling to you. How is that really any different than what I said? I will admit however, that for those who think Catholics partake in Cannibalizm, our faith appears strange.

Joanp62,
To some Jews, yes, they see the connection -as should we, but to the very orthodox, what we do is a kind of anethema.I have Jewish friends who see things through a very different light than Reformed or Conservative Jews do.
But no candidate should be targeted because of his/her religion.We each have personal religious freedom in America & it offends me that anti-Mormon bigotry is brought out during an election year.Of course, liberal Mormons like Harry Reid get a free pass.
Religious bigotry s just plain ugly & has no place in our election process.Just my thoughts.

@Chuck, I’m so sorry if you couldn’t tell I was kidding. I LOVED WHAT YOU WROTE.  I was trying to make a point about the inadvertent use of a capital “G” in the title of the post, and how others were having a holy cow about it, instead of focusing on the obvious point…:) You are even more a lovely person if you thought I was serious!

Some might say that a candidates religious views are not important but would anyone vote for a guy that believes the Sun is god? Or that aliens brought life to this planet? Of course not! Let’s not forget that Romney’s Mormon beliefs only came up because someone made the point that Obama can’t win without the Catholic vote but we shouldn’t vote for him because Pres. Obama is pro-abortion. So if we’re supposed to vote for Romney because of his religious view of the sacredness of life then I think it’s fair to look at his other religious views as well. So this is not about freedom of religion, it’s about what the candidates believe and how much those beliefs square with our own Catholic beliefs. So the “lesser of two evils” choice comes down to Obama - a guy whose religious beliefs are likely pretty close to our own except that he supports abortion or Romney - a guy that believes a whole lot of stuff that we don’t but is now against abortion; mind you Romney changed his view on abortion as he got closer to running for national office a few years back. Even if you give this one to Romney you still have to consider whether the poor, the elderly, the disabled and children would be better off under Obama or Romney. I’m not advocating one way or the other, I’m just saying that the future of our nation should not rest on how a candidate feels about one issue alone even if that issue is so important to us as Catholics.

Hey JKding,

Please go back and look at the essay. The writer’s use of the capital G in spelling God was intentional as it was used throughout the essay and not just in the title. Ms. Fisher is a skilled writer who knew exactly what she was doing. Who are you kidding?

God Bless You!

Tony, There are two ways of looking at Romney’s abortion view: 1. They show he is not a “dyed in the wool” Mormon.  The culture of Mormonism, was better than the culture of communist agitators (bombers!), porn producers, racists and cocaine users.
.
2. His view is at least nominally pro-life.
.
What I don’t understand is why my good priest keeps on exhorting us to vote for the candidate that supports life, when I live in a blue state where my vote counts for nothing.

Tony, This is getting comical.  You sound like a nice guy that means well (Thank you for being a Eucharistic minister in the Hospital :)...Can you not see how disgusting it is to assert that Ms. Fisher wanted to insult God?.  For gosh sakes, you haven’t been reading her for long or taking your own advice, if you are ready to proclaim that she is capable of intentional blasphemy.  Please don’t judge me for my grammar either, I’m somewhat lazy in this area, and have a grouchy little girl who is yelling to get out of the tub right now.  Multiply that times three for Simcha, and realize what a juggling act hers is!  This piece she wrote hit a nerve for good reason.

@Tony:  [“the future of our nation should not rest on how a candidate feels about one issue alone even if that issue is so important to us as Catholics.”]  Say what?  That Obama even supports partial birth abortion tells me what kind of character the man has.  On this one issue he tells us of his morality.  He even voted against a bill which would require a Dr. to save the life of a child were the child to survive the attempt at aborition.  Catholics voting for this guy and all the Kennedys need professional help.

Tony ,
One can get mired down in debate over theological differences & that often leads to uncharity, but I don’t see how it applies to this election really.Human rights & civil rights can be championed by folks of different persuasions-or of no religious persuation at all.
The Romney/Mormon issue seems to have been brought up mostly by liberal secularists as a divisive tool to be used on conservative Christians.I don’t want to cooperate in that.

@Tony: [“Obama - a guy whose religious beliefs are likely pretty close to our own except that he supports abortion.”]  What about the gay marrige thing?  You and Catholic David Axelrod must have bought some bad Reefer.

what bigotry!!! short memories these so called catholic supporters of obama have!!!!  do’nt u remember our own john kennedy and the bigotry he and all of us had to face. u should all be ashamed of yourselves!!!! u know!? all those neg reponces r beginning to make me think that they r obama operatives ordered to watch and respond to anything neg about their fearless leader!! but as anna lisa says “this is getting comical” and by the way if u want to read hatefull and disrespectful comments just ck out any liberal site or blog!!! u would be shocked at the venom spuing forth from their pages!!!

@Tony…..How dare you express YOUR OPINION.  It is not right to spect that a righter wood use good grammer.  This ob-vee-us-lee is a mis-take.  Ewe r never to point out that this Arthur? Author? would use pour judegment.  Simcha is the BEST riGhtEr in the holy wide world.  Know decentsion is not permitted, because it is typographical of her to nev er proof red her work.  It was a SIMPLE MISTAKE.  It wasn’t like, one of the major points of the article, or anything like that.
Nah, probably a stupid mistake.  Or a brilliant “literary device” - over 300 comments. 
(Insert numerous completely unrelated political commentaries here, along with a weather report for Neptune).  Remember, Tony, YOU are never to express your own opinion.  Feel free to agree with others (I’m probably not the best choice). Now, who is the IDIOT who claims Pluto is not a planet?

OMG Kellyann! And yes that is a capital G!!! I only wish you were here to hear me laughing so hard it made me cry! I started to read your post thinking what the heck and then caught on that you were using a literary device of your own! How clever! Seriously though, thanks from the bottom of my heart for the moral support! God Bless You!

@Tony…you r welcome.

Posted by Tony on Thursday, Oct 4, 2012 12:49 PM (EST):

Some might say that a candidates religious views are not important but would anyone vote for a guy that believes the Sun is god? Or that aliens brought life to this planet? Of course not! Let’s not forget that Romney’s Mormon beliefs only came up because someone made the point that Obama can’t win without the Catholic vote but we shouldn’t vote for him because Pres. Obama is pro-abortion. So if we’re supposed to vote for Romney because of his religious view of the sacredness of life then I think it’s fair to look at his other religious views as well. So this is not about freedom of religion, it’s about what the candidates believe and how much those beliefs square with our own Catholic beliefs. So the “lesser of two evils” choice comes down to Obama - a guy whose religious beliefs are likely pretty close to our own except that he supports abortion or Romney -
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln how did you enjoy the play?

Tony,  I really do understand what you’re saying, but abortion is not a religious issue at all.  It just so happens that our Church is the most vocal in condemning it.  We wouldn’t or shouldn’t be voting for anyone who is proabortion, regardless of their religion .  And I would like to add that just because someone identifies themself as a Christian doesn’t necessarily mean we share a lot of views.  I may have missed something but I have no idea what the President believes.  His church doesn’t seem to value the same things as Catholicism and I have never heard him speak ofhis faith in our Lord.

The bottom line is that our Bishops have made it clear that being proabortion and Catholic is not possible.  If as a Catholic one doesn’t understand why then it is up to that person to seek the truth. A good first step for that would be the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  After doing some searching if you still are having trouble, chalk it up to one of the many things we may not be able to understand and OBEY! We do not need to understand to believe.

Dear Heartbroken,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I totally agree with you and just to clarify things, I am pro-life, anti-death. The reason this all came up is because some people say we should not vote for Pres. Obama simply because of his stand on abortion. I fully appreciate the guidance of the Church but in my humble opinion we cannot afford to be one-issue voters when the country is in so much trouble. We need to look closely at what both candidates are saying on all the issues and what they have done in the past and then vote for the lesser of two evils. How unfortunate that we do not have a good Catholic or at least a solid Christian in the race!

God Bless You!

@heartbroken:  [“I may have missed something but I have no idea what the President believes.  His church doesn’t seem to value the same things as Catholicism and I have never heard him speak of his faith in our Lord.”]  Rightly so.  The Rev. Jeremiah Wright doesn’t even preach biblical Christianity, he preaches Black Liberation Theology which is nonsense.  The confusion for Catholics is that Catholic Pastor Michael Pfleger of St. Sabina’s parish in Chicago often has spoken at Obama’s church even though the Archbishop of Chicago has told him not to.  Wright, Obama and Pfleger are all socialists / activists with a radical leftist bent.  The Archbishop of Chicago has weak leadership over his priests who, ostensibly, are suppose to “obey” their bishop.

Being pro-life is absolutely required to be a Catholic in good standing.  There is no middle ground here.  Like Heartbroken said, there are many things that we Catholics must take on Faith.  It is like trying to understand the Blessed Trinity.  We will never understand until we are in Heaven.  There are many things which non-Catholics (and even non-believers) believe but cannot understand. There are many mysteries of this life and this existence.  Just look around.  Look through a telescope someday.  God’s creation is awesome.  It is inconceivable to me how anyone with any sense and even a minimal IQ can believe that abortion, in any situation, is murdering a human life.  As for Romney and his Mormon religion, there have been many presidents who have had different religious backgrounds and beliefs.  Richard Nixon was a Quaker, Klinton was a…er…Bible holder…  Look at John Kennedy and his brothers!  They were all catholics (small “c”)!  Look at the scandal they brought upon their name, family, and Catholicism! It’s no wonder why non-Catholics deride us after their example.  I don’t think that Romney’s beliefs, whether he believes that Jesus was from another planet, or if he believes that men will become little gods on different planets, are going to play a part in his ability to be an effective president—unlike the so-called “christian” that currently occupies the WH.  I believe BO is a muslim—he is NO Christian.  When faced with a moral dilemma such as BO and Romney, we must always choose the lesser of the two evils.  Romney was not my first choice for the Republican nomination.  I would have preferred Santorum or Gingrich.  But, Romney is who we are left with.  Romney will get my vote and my support.  BO is evil.  Plain and simple.

Oops..that sentence “It is inconceivable to me how anyone with any sense and even a minimal IQ can believe that abortion, in any situation, is murdering a human life.” Should have read: “It is inconceivable to me how anyone with any sense and even a mininmal IQ can believe that abortion, in any situation, is NOT murdering a human life.”

Sorry. There doesn’t seem to be an “edit” option here.

Heartbroken:  Why did you say that “abortion is not a religious issue”?  I would think abortion is a religious issue, but it is also a moral and social issue.  It has become a political issue only because it offends so many Christians and non-Christians.

CastingCrowns:  I am from Chicago.  I know of St. Sabina’s very well.  I know that this pastor has had many problems with his Bishop for many years.  He has become a sort of “celebrity” amongst the people at St. Sabina’s.  He is a scandal and should be removed from the position he holds.  He has been at St. Sabina’s for well over 20 years.  Most priests get transferred every 5-10 years.  Some get transferred even more frequently.  This priest is clinging to his notoriety.  He basks in the light of his popularity and is smitten by it.

As for BO’s religion—he worships at the altar of ego.  For him, there is no other God.  Everything about him is a facade.  We will probably never know the real BO.  I understand that his wife was preparing to start divorce proceedings until he became the dems poster boy.

@SexySadie:  Glad you were never fooled by BO.  Hitler came to power as a charismatic leader as well appealing to the fatherless youth of WWI and ultimately he destroyed Germany.  BO has followed in his pattern.  You know BO often appears only at college campuses to rally the “youth”  Once again, yesterday, he was in Madison, WI —Dane County —akin to Berkeley, CA.  BO won’t show up in Appleton, Milwaukee, Racine or Green Bay.  What’s with those people in Chicago?  That slimely Catholic David Axelrod, Saul Alinsky, the Catholic church wasting $400,000.00 on that bogus ACORN (Thank you USCCB !!!), 400 homocides this year, Catholic Wm. Daly on the BO team and that foul mouth in the tank Rahm Emanuel.  You also have Catholic Dick Durbin as a US Senator who called our troops in Iraq “Nazi’s.”  Perhaps the diocese should transfer Phleger down to a parish in Venezuela where he could freebase Crack with his hero Hugo Chavez.  Hang in there, Sadie. Today is one less day BO will be in office.  Same for Rahm.

@Casting Crowns: ROFL!

@Sexysadie- I said that abortion isn’t a religious issue because there are many issues that are tied in to religious views and beliefs (birth control, food- for other faiths, etc) but abortion is a basic civil rights issue.  It should be something we ALL agree on but amazingly enough there are people who think it’s necessary to be able to kill some fellow human beings.  Of course it is deeply woven into our Catholic faith but even some of those who are atheists are prolife and recognize that abortion is wrong.

And you are so right about BO.  Thank you for your thoughts :)

@CastingCrowns: I don’t think there is a dem that I have ever liked.  I lived right across the street from the former Richard Daley, Jr. and even though I thought he did a lot for the city (infratructure, etc.), I could never vote for him because I was never sure of his stand on abortion.  Some said he was pro-life, but I never saw any proof of that.  This present mayor is a real disaster…he belongs in the same category as Jane Byrne, and Bilandic.

I am one of those hated one-issue voters.  If a candidate isn’t pro-life, I don’t vote for him/her. A candidate’s stand on abortion tells me all I need to know about his/her priorities and values. This one-issue voting drives a lot of people crazy, but to me, it makes perfect sense.

Hey Casting Crowns - I know this is a free country but it is wrong of you to use the name Casting Crowns which is the name of a wonderful Contemporary Christian group that creates beautiful, uplifting music. The members of the group would be hurt and offended to know that you are posting under their name as I’m sure that you would be if someone were using your name. I pray that you will change your name to something more personal, something that does not affect someone else’s reputation. God Bless You!

@Tony…I think at this juncture, the point of the article (if it had one) is long gone.  But your last post - I had to chime in - while posting about a different article weeks ago, I was “called to task” (rightfully so) because I kept responding to “Casting Crows”. For once, it was actually a true mis-read, (no intentional misspelling on my part - irony, huh?)  I kept thinking “Counting Crows”, and wondering what a “Casting Crow” was.  I did apologize about the mistake, but always wondered what “Casting Crowns” meant.  I googled. I learned.  I now wonder.

Hey Kellyann….The “juncture” doesn’t matter, the only thing we need to know is that God has brought us to this place today :) Here’s a link to my favorite Casting Crowns song, East to West:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyoVJfADlwo&feature=related

Hopefully it will work, if not just copy, paste and enjoy! There’s a lot of wonderful Christian music on the web and videos on YouTube. I hope everyone on here will take a look!

God Bless You!

@Kellyann and Tony:  I have used this term “Casting Crowns” long before the Christian group came on the music scene.  I am familiar with some of their music, but Tony,—no one is likely to confuse a personal combox response with that of this Praise group.  Furthermore, since people reading and responding to this blog are virtually entirely Catholic it is highly unlikely any Catholics even know of the group.  Catholics are not known to follow contemporary Christian rock.  And unless you know otherwise, the USCCB has not issued any statement outlawing Catholics from listening to Christian music.  But I am happy to see you are aware of them and enjoy their music.  @Kellyann, the term comes from “crowns” we will receive in the glory of the after life.  We will not, however, retain them for our own glory, (but in humility and gratitude to the Lord) cast them at the foot of the cross of Jesus Christ.  All “crowns” belong only to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  I am aware this is not part of standard Catholic “speak” —but be that as it may, it is not something the Magisterium needs to approve.

@Sexysadie
What about candidates that are anti-abortion and pro-death penalty?  How do we reconcile this with our faith? Both are ways to kill people.

I agree with Simcha Fisher’s view about abortion, but I do think it was uncalled for to say that Catholics who support killing innocent unborn human beings worship an “idiot god” is uncharitiable. I sympathize greatly with the women who have lost children with terrible genetic disabilities. However, not to be prideful, but I have a degree in Special Education, and have worked with disabled people in various capacities (classroom aide, teacher, group home supervisor, volunteer Board Member of a disability rights group). Until recently, I worked with a young man with muscular dystrophy, a progressive, fatal disability. Yet, he still has a good attitude about life, though he is in pain. I’m now disabled myself (age 50). I have insulin-dependent diabetes, have had a cingulotomy (a procedure for obsesssive-compulsive disorder in which a small part of my brain was removed), and may have to have a pacemaker. Frankly, I’m scared. But I’m trying, with God’s help, to remain strong. I do think it’s incompatible to be Catholic and “pro-choice”. Yes, women will always have abortions. But consider these remarks by the late Dr. Bernard Nathanson. He personally performed 5,000 abortions, and was the co-founder of what is now “Pro-Choice America.” In his 1979 book “Aborting America,” he admitted that he and his fellow “pro-choice” activists deliberately grossly exaggerated illegal abortion deaths. Thousands of Americans die annually from heroin and cocaine overdoses. Would it be wise to legalize these drugs? I happen to be a gay Catholic, and haven’t always been celibate. I have several gay friends, and we treat each other with respect. But I oppose gay marriage, and have found healing through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Our Pope is not perfect in the sense that he can’t sin; we’re all sinners.  However , our Holy Father does have the gift of infallibility when speaking on matters of faith and morals. Christ did say in Matthew 16: 13-19 to Peter, “you are peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Neither Romney or Obama is perfect. I favor gun control, government aid for the poor, elderly, disabled, immigrants, elderly, and others in need, without creating a culture of dependency. I also oppose capital punishment, and favor war only as a last resort. But I will reluctantly vote for Romney. First, because I deplore the attacks on his Mormom faith. Though I disagree with its’ tenets, my late aunt was a Mormom. She was a loving woman, and not subservient to her my late uncle, More to the point: Obama’s HHS regulations will require Catholic and other religious hospitals to provide employee health benefits that will require the dispensing of abortive drugs. according to a 6/16/12 AP report, one out of six Americans receive healthcare from Catholic hospitals. When the se
hospitals close-and sadly, they will-think of the resulting misery. Remaining hospitals will be overwhelmed by patients. With respect, it’s a myth that there’s an absolute separation of church and state. The abolitionists were largely motivated by moral principles. The commendable civil rights movement of the 60’s was led by Rev. Martin Luther King, and he was joined by people of many creeds and races. Incidentally, he opposed legal abortion-on-demand (though he supported contraception). This has been confirmed by his niece, Rev. Alveda King, a woman who has had, and regretted two abortions. Both liberal Rev. Al Sharpton and fundamentalist Rev. Pat Robertson have run for President. Polls today indicate that many women favor abortion restrictions. These include a ban on most partial-birth abortions, a ban on most tax-funded abortions, and support for parental consent for teen girls (with juducial bypass). Some 3000 pro-life agencies provide women and their developing babies with compassionate care nationwide. Most receive little government funding,and many provide care both before AND after birth. I’m not able to adopt children because of my disability. However, I have a physician friend whose wife was raped, bore the child, and gave him up for adoption. They founded a pro-life aid center, took pregnant women into their own home, and adopted a child with a severe, fatal disability. Planned Parenthood, on the other hand, performs 325,000 abortiions annually (according to their 2010 annual report). They provided only 841 adoption referrals, and only 31,000 of their millions of clients received pre-natal care. President Obama was even wiling to shut down the federal government, because of his insistence on funding their vile activities. No, we can’t ban abortion overnight. But when working together in an ecumenical manner, we can eventually create a nation where life is respected, from womb to tomb. Respectfully, Tim Donovan

Not to belabor the point, but , while it’s rare, even atheists and liberals oppose legal abortion. Journalist Nat Hentoff, a self-described Jewish atheist and former Board Member of the Ny Chapter of the ACLU, opposes legal abortion-on demand. Even legal infanticide is favored by some, abortion advocates. Princeton Professor Peter Singer advocates the killing of newborn ababies with disabilities.I’m a former Democrat, now a registered Independent. Yet, Congress still has a small band of pro-life Democrats, and there is a group, Democrats for Life. Unfortunately, they have little influence in today’s Democratic party. Too bad!  Tim Donovan

ELCA does this also with homosexuality. When we take our favorite sin and build a theology around it, is this not a false religion? One of satans tools are lies, and he hides lies in the truth to create the idoit god we desire.

2 Corinthians 11:13–15

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

This nothing more than one of the many counterfeit churches of satan Jesus refers to:

Revelation 2:9 ... I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

What we need a bible teaching churches.

Simcha,just read your column and am forwarding it on to my sister. We love your articles! Wow, this one was totally right on. I wish our priests would preach on these current topics, I think people have forgotten or haven’t read the Catechism in a while or at all. I am a convert and have had to tone it down,because I can come off just like the article when speaking to people when topics come up at work. I just put it out there,because that is what I thought I was supposed to do,I am very ardent,lol. The truth is the truth whether you like it or not. Some people need this approach,plus I am tired of “watering it down” to pacify peoples feelings. I don’t mean I am rude or insulting, but people are not used to someone who just lays it out there, I am not concerned about political correctness. Keep writing those great articles and bless you!

@Confused:  I know this is going to start another war here, but to compare abortion and the death penalty is like comparing apples to oranges.  There is no similarity.  Abortion is the taking of INNOCENT human life which has no way to defend him/herself.  The child has done nothing to warrant being murdered except to be an inconvenience to its mother.  The death penalty takes the life of a grown human being who has, by the very nature of his/her crimes, given up his/her right to life.  This is called justice.  Now, you may not agree with that—and many pro-lifers don’t, but the dichotomy of these two issues is so far apart from each other as to be undebatable.  The death penalty is a PUNISHMENT—plain and simple.  And yes, there is always the possibility that an innocent person can be put to death.  Well, there are innocent people dying tragically every day.  Most of them at the hands of murdering thieves or drunk drivers.  Where is the outrage for those victims?  Murdering innocent unborn human babies is an atrocity of barbaric proportions.  There is no comparison in the two issues.

@Patty…I think it’s great when people speak their mind.  There is a big difference between “watering it down”, and being rude, disgusting, or vulgar.  You state that you are not rude or insulting, but sometimes people are surprised by your candor or fervor.  There is a difference between taking a close friend aside and saying, “X, you are overweight, and I am concerned for your health - vs - “X, you are fat and gross - you inhaled that sandwich like a pig eating slop - when are you gonna come up for air?”
But Patty, to get back to the article - who is the idiot?  People who claim to be Catholic and Pro-Choice? Or Our Lord?  Self-proclaimed “Pro-Choice Catholics” have not created a separate religion, and they believe in the same GOD of standard Catholic teaching.  How many women seeking abortion right now will read this and say, “Oh, gosh, I didn’t know my abortion would cause people to think Our Lord is an idiot - .......”

@SexySadie…I like your choice of name. Sorry “Confused” to jump in on her illuminating answer to your post, but really Sadie,... “The death penalty is a PUNISHMENT—plain and simple.  And yes, there is always the possibility that an innocent person can be put to death.  Well, there are innocent people dying tragically every day.  Most of them at the hands of murdering thieves or drunk drivers.”.....That is by far the strangest justification for the death penalty that I have ever heard. 
Hey, Sadie, you just gave Pro-Choice Catholics the best excuse ever!!!!  They didn’t have an abortion that took the life of their unborn innocent child - a drunken, murdering thief (probably driving) caused the lose of the child.
So to recap, it’s OK for the state to kill the occasional innocent person because innocent people die every day, and someone has to be punished for the crimes of murdering thieves and drunk drivers.

dear kellyann, unlike u, most catholics r intelligent enough to recognize irony and sarcasam when they read it. and by the way these pro-choice catholics have formed their own church! It’s called the “church of nice” where everyone is nice and comfortable! Where everyone can believe whatever they want! where the priest is always nice and always preachs a nice sermon and the music is always nice. and if the priest happens to make a mistake and preach about sin and other nasty things that r not nice, well then ,they go to the next nice parish after reporting that nasty priest to the nice bishop, who usually has a nice talk with that nasty priest…. please God i pray u raise up more nasty priest, amen

There is an excellent 4 or 5 min. video on the “New Advent” site: “A Tsunami of Secularism”.  Notice what Cardinal Wuerl says about creating our own “Christs”.

@Kellyann:  My user name is actually the title of a Beatles’ song. Sorry if it offended you.  (Talk about rash judgement!)  Well, like I said, I knew that posting my view on abortion vs. death penalty would cause a firestorm—and it did. So sorry, again.  I will not comment on it any further.

@Rich…just to make sure, are you the “rich” who posted, “tony,35yrs of dialogue and now we have the most avid supporter of abortion in the WH. AND he is there because of the “catholic” vote. that is what turns my stomach the most!!!! Hot or cold, tony!!! ur lukwarm pablum makes me want to vomit. he could’nt have won in ‘08 and he can’t in Nov. without us!!!

If that is your post, then it doesn’t seem to jibe with, “dear kellyann, unlike u, most catholics r intelligent enough to recognize irony and sarcasam when they read it. and by the way these pro-choice catholics have formed their own church! It’s called the “church of nice”

So, Rich, since most Catholics are apparently more intelligent than me, (and I am at least intelligent enough to use a computer), why did they vote for President Obama in ‘08?  You clearly state that he could not have won without the Catholic vote, without “us”.  You imply that I am unintelligent, because unlike “me”, most Catholics are “intelligent enough to recognize irony and (I believe you may have meant to type) sarcasm”.  (I do apologize that in my stupor of stupidity, I do not know what “sarcasam” is - please excuse me.)

I believe that many people use the words “irony” and “sarcasm” incorrectly.  They have a general idea of the definition, but not the true meaning.

For example, it isn’t truly ironic to find “10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife”, it’s simply not useful.

If you would be so kind to provide a link or address to a Catholic “Church of Nice”, I would be ever so grateful.  I would like to view their website, or perhaps visit.

Thank you, Rich.  I also noticed before that there was something (perhaps an opinion expressed by someone other than yourself) that “makes you want to vomit”.  While no longer widely recommended, syrup of ipecac can help with that.

@SexySadie…I said I liked your name.  Even if I didn’t, how could it offend me? 
I just think it’s odd to say that killing a few innocent people on death row is just fine by you, because innocent people die everyday anyway.
The death penalty is tricky business.  I agree that it is different from abortion, but throwing in the whole bit about the “whoops”.... electrocuted the wrong guy .... was maybe not the best choice of words.  But then again, see above, I don’t really know anything, I’m not intelligent.

Dear Rich,

Unlike you, most Catholics are intelligent enough to not say “please God i pray u raise up more nasty priest”. What were you thinking? And don’t even try to accuse me of not being able to recognize irony and sarcasm.

Your anti-Catholic rants are pathetic. If you’re really Catholic you would know that as a Catholic you should do whatever you can to keep fellow Catholics from leaving the Church. Catholics who are pro-death are still Catholics, just like Catholics who commit other heinous crimes are also still Catholics; they worship the same God that you and I worship but Satan has really gotten to them and they have sinned, just like you and I occasionally sin, the difference being that their big sins are much more grievous than our everyday little sins. To insist that pro-death Catholics worship another god than the one true God that we worship is bad theology. As Catholics we are called to love the sinner and hate the sin - instead of trying to make these Catholics feel like they are not welcome in the Church we should do everything we can to help them to see that they have sinned and to help them to seek forgiveness. To belittle and say that Catholics who have sinned are somehow out of the Church is wrong, hurtful and a sin in itself. God Bless You!

@Kellyann:  I never said anything about you not being intelligent.  That was another’s post.  And, if I misunderstood your comment about my username, I apologize.  And, regarding the abortion vs. death penalty, as I said, I am not going to comment any further on this topic.  To do so would just cause further frustrating and futile arguments back and forth. There are some topics which simply cannot be discussed civilly.  This is one of them.  I have to say, though (and I am not pointing at you, Kellyann), that the tone of some of these comments are really quite rabid.  It is no surprise that the Church is suffering now.

Abortion is always wrong, no matter what. The death penalty, which should be used as a punishment in the most rarest of circumstances, is not always wrong or inherently evil as abortion is, according to the Church. No one, absolutely no one is more innocent than an unborn child. And no one, absolutely no one has less of a voice than an unborn child. At least someone on death row can appeal their sentence. I do hope that the death penalty is phased out entirely, except perhaps if even maximum security prison can’t keep them from murder, but the number of people executed over the last 40 years doesn’t even come close to the number of children ‘executed’ by abortion.

Thank you, Joanp62.

hey tony u just keep throwing up ur straw men with petty issues that just deflect everyone from the real issue!!! u continue to defend and sympathize w/ the wolves in the flock!! who by the way have already excommunicated themselves but continue to stay and undermine the church. at least luther had enough self-respect to stop being the fake, phony self-rightious so-called catholic who u think we should coddle. Please spare us!!!

kellyanne, if u want a website for the church of nice start with the USCCB… they can then direct u to many diocese where orthodoxy is discouraged and decent to church doctrine is secretly overlooked or even supported. as long as u r nice no one will have problem,ok

That one left me breathless. Let’s keep praying that all of us keep God out of our own tiny boxes and realize the magnitude of who God is - that life is life, and choosing our own way often leads to death.

“I am so saddened by the lack of civility, the lack of understanding and the lack of mercy that so many people have demonstrated by their posts on this topic. “

To Tony at 10:02 on oct 2: Welcome to the NCR where there is no mdoerating and the combox usually turns into this.  If we are really going to change hearts we have to do it in a different way.  This approach is counter productive. Does anyone think this changed a pro-choice Catholic’s heart?

@rich…I tried the Bishops, but they were unable to find “Church of Nice” in the directory.  Apparently, no such Diocese exists. It would seem that you were being disingenuous. As for praying for nasty priests, that seems a rather odd request, I don’t think many people will be joining you in that prayer. 
As for the “straw man” you keep accusing others of, you do very well with that all by yourself. Why do you continually attack a guy that simply advocates for compassion for others?  Isn’t that part of being a Catholic?I don’t have the patience or even-temper of Tony or Sadie, so continual bickering with me could be understandable. 
Is that all there is for you in the Church?  Screaming priests berating entire congregations about the many paths they are all taking to Hell?  It is telling that you chose to name your fictional church the “church of nice”.  Is nothing “nice” in your life, and that is why you believe the Church needs nasty priest?  I think you are the “fake, phony self-righteous so-called catholic” that you rail against.  I am done with you, as it seems a waste of time for us to continually argue the same point over and over.

@SexySadie, you are right about the rabid posts. I admire your self-control.  When you decided not to post about the death penalty anymore, you “stuck to your guns”. You are certainly right in that some arguments will just continue to around and around.

I see!!! so u think issues like baby killing, same sex marriage,and contraception,r straw men issues!!! and u feel mercy and compassion for these unrepentant snakes and wolves which the church has tried for the last 50yrs is the way to go!!! God forbid we should make them uncomfortable! but the qustion i have for u is: how’s that been working out for the church!!! should the bishops and clergy continue for another 50yrs till like the diocese of cleveland, milwaukee, detroit and many more r compleatly gone. some diocese have had to close almost half of their parishes,once thriving major religious orders of priest and nuns r all but gone! once great catholic universities r now catholic in name only. it is the most epic fail in the 2000 history of the church!!! it is the real scandal! as PBXV1 has said, the smoke of satan has entered the church So don’t tell me to be nice! this is my church too! all ur ways have gotten us to this miserable state of affairs. orthodoxy must be reestablished and the wolves in sheeps clothing exposed and driven from the flock! so many souls led astray! true mercy and compassion is telling the truth, no matter who gets upset

Dear God,

Please help Rich, my brother in Christ, to deal with his hatred of all those who lack his strength of character and ability to do nothing but good. Please help Rich to see you in those who are in pain because they have sinned against you. Please help Rich to know the joy that comes from bringing someone who has left the Church back to you, the joy that comes from welcoming back home the Prodigal son, the joy that comes from bringing home the poor sheep that left the flock. Please help Rich to understand that true mercy and compassion is not the same as pointing the finger and doling out punishment.

In Jesus name….

@Rich:  FYI: It was Pope Paul VI who said, not long before he died, “The smoke of satan has entered the Church even into its highest level.”  Prophetic, indeed.  You are right when you say that 50+ years of playing nice with dissenters of the Faith has not produced the intended results.  The Church has lost 5 generations of Catholics to watered down catechesis.  I call them, “Jesus loves me” Catholics.  Both of my younger sisters were robbed of the Faith.  I think what you are trying to point out is that Catholics can no longer afford to play “nice” with the Faith.  We must, as Catholics, boldly proclaim the Truth no matter if it upsets another or not.  Now, that doesn’t mean that we have to be rude about it.  I don’t think that that is what you are trying to do.  I think, and I may be mistaken, that you (like me) have witnessed so much destruction in the Church for the past 50+ years that your patience is worn thin.  I too feel that way sometimes.  In addition, I agree that no Catholic can compromise the teachings of the Church because of fear of not being liked, or turning someone away from the Faith.  Our Lord said to the young man to go and sell what you have and then come, follow Me.  The young man had many possessions and walked away from Jesus sad.  Jesus did not call him back nor did he retract what He said to the young man.  I can get VERY rude and VERY obnoxious when trying to argue a point for which I feel strongly.  That is why I choose to not argue any further.  Mother Teresa once said something to the effect that, (I’m paraphrasing) “More souls are won to the Faith by our actions than by our words.”  Of course, she said it much more eloquently than I can.  This is what enables me to hold my tongue (or typing fingers) when I feel that an argument/discussion is going in circles and getting more and more frustrating and volatile. It doesn’t accomplish anything except to put a brick wall between the other person and the Truth.  As I said, we should never compromise the Truth, but we should always defend it with dignity and charity.  I hope that makes sense to you.

nice tactic! just like a liberal! flip the script and accuse me of hatred. why dont u add racist because i’m against obama and his liberal and immoral ways. oh but he is for the poor! and any one aganst him u brand as someone w/no character or ability to do good. that is dispicable! ur right ms. fisher thy r idiots worshiping a idiot god. u r leading many astray and one day u will have to ans to GOD. I’ll pray for ur eternal soul u deluded fool.

thank u sexysadie. u r much more eloquent than i!

Rich:  Were you referring to my post or someone else’s?

Rich:  I must have been sending my post the same time you sent yours!  Thank you for the compliment.  I just really hate to see Catholics at each other’s throats. I believe that most of us are trying very hard to live good, Catholic lives and to bring the Deposit of Faith to others.  It gets very frustrating, sometimes.  I am not able to share my love of the Catholic Faith with my own two sisters because they don’t like it when I “get on my soapbox.”  So, I pray.  I pray in the manner of St. Monica.  God can do a much better job turning their hearts than I can.  And ultimately, that is what we Catholics (hopefully) are trying to do.  We have been given a most precious gift and we should never take that gift for granted.  God bless you for the obvious love you have for Our Lord and His Church.  Same to you Kellyann and Tony and the rest of the commenters here.

What an excellent article! As Catholics we are too often overly cautious about being excessively pushy or demanding when it comes to our own following their faith honestly. But with the way our culture is heading, slipping further and further away, it is becoming obvious that our technique for conversion isn’t working. Maybe it is like with your children, when you speak to them gently and try to reason with them but you never punish them for what they do wrong, they know all they have to do is stand there (eyes glazing over) and listen through the talk and then go do what they want anyway. Perhaps a more direct approach, complete with punishments, is the more productive path.

Thank-you, Simcha.
I have a comment for the commenters who are appalled that you don’t stick with the nicey-nice:
Bein nice and tolerant and soft-spoken, etc. has NOT worked.  Instead it allows all who disagree to turn away and justify their selfishness under various politically correct, compassion/social justice lies.
It is way past time for truth to grab people by the shoulders and shake them up.  A lot!
Being nice about these life and death issues - body AND soul - is another form of selfishness.  “Can’t have anybody be mad at me, now can I?”
Truth is not disrespectful.  Truth is not mean. Truth is not flexible.  Truth needs to be spoken EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT “READY” TO HEAR IT.

@Nicole…you hit the nail on the head.  I understand now.  It was you and SexySadie who have changed my way of thinking about this article.  god is an idiot, and people who claim to be catholic, but believe in abortion have created their own separate church of the idiot god.  After all, as Sexy mentions, we have lost 5 generations to “watered down religion”.  There is no possible way that anyone born or taught during the last 50 years is as good a Catholic as in days gone by.  Catholics (the good ones, not the watered-down version) need to bring things to a head.  Stand up for what is right - god is an idiot.  Now, appropriate punishment for the wrong-doers, that is not for me to decided, because I was not lucky enough to have been instructed properly in my Faith before the evil vatican II.  Thank you, Nicole, because here I was trying to write lesson plans that expanded upon the books given to the catechists in CCD, but I’m done with that now - there are so many more “fun” things to do.  Why waste my time with a lot of people who think calling god is an idiot is fine?  I don’t think God is an idiot - that must be my “watered down religion”.  In fact, I’m probably not Catholic and I don’t even know it. (Nicole, if you haven’t followed the posts all the way through - you probably think I’m insane, but in reality, I’m simply a tired mom, a bad Catholic, and I need a little syrup of ipecac, because Rich makes me sick).

@Sexy Sadie. Thank you for answering my question.  I have a few follow up questions, if that is okay.  These are not meant to be “calling you out” or argumentative.  I really am curious.  Rich said that anyone who votes for a pro-abortion candidate is in a state of mortal sin and must receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  From what I understand, this stems from the fact that abortion is a grave sin against the fifth commandment. Does that mean that voting for someone who is pro-death penalty is not a mortal sin? I just want to be very clear because at this point I feel as if I may just have to be in a state of mortal sin if I vote at all during most elections.  As bad as this sounds, I don’t want to argue with you, I am just being selfish and don’t want to be in a state of mortal sin just by checking a box on a voting ballot.

Hi Sadie,

My understanding is that sin is something you do yourself. I think you would be sinning if you were assisting a doctor in his office when he was performing an abortion, but I’m not sure that it applies to voting for a candidate that is pro-death. In any event, you have a few weeks to go before you have to step into the voting booth, so there’s more than enough time to speak with your priest and ask him for guidance.

God Bless You!

Tony, I think that even voting for someone who is pro-abortion all the way, is considered contribution to the sin of abortion. There is direct and indirect.

To the poster who asked if voting for someone who is for the death penalty a sin, as I believe I posted earlier, for Catholics, abortion is an intrinsic evil, it is always wrong. You are killing the most innocent of all human beings, and the entirely voiceless. While the death penalty should be given rarely, it is not always wrong. Way more unborn people have died as a result of abortion than the death penalty.

Remember when Jesus spoke about a group a people who cry out to Him, saying, “Lord! Lord! Did we not even do miracles in your name?”  He turns to them and says:
.
*I do not KNOW you*.
.
They are then cast outside the door where there is great “wailing and gnashing of teeth”.
.
“Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison, remonstrate the sinner”...“Insofar as you did it to the *LEAST* of these, you did it to *ME*...”
.
Who might this apply to MORE than an unborn baby?

Brilliant! Simply brilliant!

We need more people like you to remind us every single day that we were created by God, not the other way around.

@Tony:  I think you meant to direct your comment to “confused” rather than to me.  In response, sin can be either a sin of commission or a sin of ommission.  That means that we can sin either by doing an evil act or by ignoring an evil act.  For example: if I were to rob a local bank, that would be a sin of commission. Because I actually performed the act of robbing.  However, if I knew the person who robbed the bank and kept it to myself, then I COULD be guilty of a sin of ommission.  Now I say COULD because of the possibility of other influences in this situation. That could only be determined by a priest in confession.  Sins of ommission are more complicated.  Abortion is much more serious than robbing a bank.  Any kind of a sin is always a personal matter.  There is a false teaching that has been going around for 20 years in some Catholic schools and CCD programs called “social” sin.  Supposedly, this is when we sin as a group—sort of like a mob mentality.  This false idea supposedly encompasses all the “-isms” such as racism, sexism, age-ism, etc.  Unfortunately, there is no such thing.  When we go before God, we do not bring our group with us.  We are judged on our own sins. To say that there is such a thing as social sin is heretical and goes against all teachings of the Catholic Church.  If we commit a sin while others are around us committing the same sin, we each sin separately.  This is just an attempt of the “politically correct” crowd to perpetuate the politically correct agenda. I hope this helped. 

@Confused:  Your question is a complicated one.  As Catholics, we can never support abortion in anyway shape or form.  This includes voting for a candidate who is pro-abortion (“pro-choice”).  I believe the popes have spoken publicly about this as well as many good priests and bishops.  We can never support evil—and today, one of the most insidious forms of evil is the deliberate taking of unborn human life.  The way I look at it (and I’m no theologian or confessor), a candidate’s stand on life determines whether I can/will vote for him/her.  To me, if a candidate considers him/herself “pro-choice” that tells me all I need to know about the candidate.  If he/she is not willing to protect the most innocent and defenseless of humans, then he/she cannot possibibly have the character or morals to be in a position of authority.  There are a lot of people out there today who consider people like myself who are “one issue voters” idiots.  Well, so be it.  Only, before condemning me for my stand, look at what has been done by politicians who call themselves “pro-choice”.  The proof is in the pudding as they say.

Oops..I spelling comission and omission incorrectly.  Sorry…

@Kellyann:  I just don’t know how to respond to your comment.  As I read it, it seemed to me, at first, that you were being honest and forthright.  But, as I read further, it became clear that you were being extraordinarily sarcastic and condescending.  Please correct me if I misinterpreted your intentions.  It seems to me (and I could be very wrong) that you appear to be acutely defensive toward any commenter who challenges your ideas—like they are attacking you personally. It is the same when you remarked about my username. It appears that you read into comments what isn’t there.  You make sweeping judgements on statements made by others that have nothing to do at all with the point another is making.  Example: Your comment: “After all, as Sexy mentions, we have lost 5 generations to ‘watered down religion’.  There is no possible way that anyone born or taught during the last 50 years is as good a Catholic as in days gone by.” Your interpretation of what was written is totally out of left field.  That is not what I meant and you know it.  Kellyann, you seem to have a real problem with anyone who shows the slightest disagreement with your opinions.  I will not again address any of your comments.  You have some kind of a problem and I am not going to engage in this kind of bantering back and forth.  It serves no purpose except to fuel your passive-aggressive nature.

@Sexy Sadie,
Thank you again for your comments.  It has been made clear that voting for someone pro-choice is a major sin. I’m not arguing against that or condemning your point of view. I know that abortion is wrong.  I’m just not clear on the Church’s stance on the morality of the death penalty.  My question is whether or not the Church supports voting for someone who is anti-abortion AND pro-death penalty.  I just want to know the Church’s stand on the issue.  Like I said, this is an entirely selfish issue since I can’t justify voting at all if I have to choose between the two if being pro-death is a sin too.  If the Church says that the death penalty is okay, then voting for someone who is anti-abortion and pro-death penalty is the only sinless way to vote.  If the Church is against the death penalty, then, in some elections given the choices, there is no sinless way to vote.  In that case, I’ll gladly relinquish my civic duties and say some extra prayers on election day.

Confused: here is what I posted above regarding the death penalty.

To the poster who asked if voting for someone who is for the death penalty a sin, as I believe I posted earlier, for Catholics, abortion is an intrinsic evil, it is always wrong. You are killing the most innocent of all human beings, and the entirely voiceless. While the death penalty should be given rarely, it is not always wrong. Way more unborn people have died as a result of abortion than the death penalty.

So, if a politician is anti-abortion but not against the death penalty, it would not be wrong to vote for them. What I find interesting are those politicians who are anti-death penalty and pro-abortion.

@Confused:  The death penalty, for whatever reason, has gotten all entangled with the abortion issue.  I don’t know why that is, but for many good Catholics, to be pro-life, you must also be anti-death penalty. This is not the teaching of the Church.  The popes have all come out against the death penalty.  But, unlike abortion which is always a heinous and intrinsic mortal sin, the death penalty or support of it, is not. Remember, Jesus said, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”  I will try to find the official teaching on the death penalty—but this may take awhile.

@Confused:  Here are the official teachings of the Catholic Church on the death penalty as found in the Catechism:

“2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church DOES NOT EXCLUDE (my emphasis) recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”

So, here it is.  To vote for a candidate who is pro-life but pro-death penalty is NOT a sin. But, all Catholics should vote according to their properly catechised conscience.

@Sexy Sadie.  Thank you for your hard work finding the reference.  My Catechism is still buried in a box from our most recent move. 
@Joanp62.  It seems that people who are anti-death penalty and pro-abortion do not believe that a fetus is a living person.  They believe that killing a person is wrong.  Since a fetus is not alive, abortion is not a crime in their eyes.  That seems to be one of the biggest hurdles for those of us who believe that a person is a person at the time of conception—convincing others that a person’s life begins in the womb, not out of it.  Changing morals is a very difficult thing to do.

@Confused:  You are correct about the whole “person” issue.  The best way to combat this is to ask the pro-abortion person WHO and WHEN made the decision about when a human being is a person.  They won’t be able to answer you because there is simply no answer.  The whole “person” issue came about some years ago when the pro-aborts were using the “life doesn’t begin at conception” argument for abortion.  Scientists and those in the medical field discovered—without a doubt—that human life does, in fact, begin at conception.  Well, the pro-aborts couldn’t use that argument anymore so they had to come up with something else.  That’s when the “it’s not a person” argument was born.  It’s as stupid as stupid can get—but the worst part of it is that so many people bought into it.  Their arguments on personhood have no basis in fact or reality. And, they especially have no basis in fact scientifically or philosophically.  Personhood is basically a non-issue, non-argument, and nonsensical.

Confused, but they have to know that a fetus is alive. Or else it will not grow. Even in the blastocyst stage, it is alive or it could not develop into a fetus. These are living cells, human cells, that will develop into nothing other than a human being. Science shows that life does begin at conception. God Bless.

It’s interesting to see us argue that life begins at conception so we cannot take that life - but death begins whenever a jury finds you guilty and a judge sentences you to death - so we can. If God breathes our first breath into us then shouldn’t God be the one to take our last breath away? As to the “Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” argument - a persons life is not Caesar’s to do with, it’s God’s!

If I can add my comments. The traditional teaching of the Church is that the state does have the right to protect society by executing those who are convicted of murder. However, the Church in recent years (particularly under the guidance of the late Pope John Paul, with influence from Sister Helen Prejean)  has said that the Church now prefers “bloodless means” rather than executing those guilty of murder. However, it does still maintain that in rare cirsumstances, the state can use execution to protect society. I am absolutely against the death penalty, even those committed by the most heinous murderers.(though certainly, we must show compassion for the families and friends of murder victims). The Church does, in fact, have ministries both for those in prison, and those who have suffered the loss of a loved one by murder.  However, with respect to all who have posted, I don’t think that killing a convicted murderer is equivalent to killing an innocent unborn human being, who in no way is guilty of any crime. So I do feel that it’s preferable to vote for an anti-legal abortion candidate who is pro-death penalty. However, as some have pointed out, I feel it is perfectly acceptable to simply refrain from voting, if you can’t find a candidate who is totally in line with Church teaching. But I do feel that the Obama administration’s policies are a serious threat to the religious liberty of not only Catholics, but all people of faith. Respectfully, Tim Donovan

@Tim: The question was not whether the Church approves or does not approve of the death penalty.  The question was whether a Catholic could vote for a candidate who is pro-life but also pro-death penalty.  The question was if a Catholic voted for this candidate, could the person be sinning.  I merely quoted the catechism to show that, although the Church does not advocate the death penalty, neither does it say that being pro-death penalty carries any sort of penalty of sin.

@Tim: Disregard my last comment.  I didn’t read your entire post.  Thanks for your thoughtful comments, though.  I think they are very clear and in line with Church teaching.

I agree with Linda Quirk that “pro-choice Catholics” aren’t irretrievably lost. I know I’m being redundant, but I’m a gay Catholic, who hasn’t always been faithful to Church teaching on sexuality. I have several gay friends, and we treat each other with respect. But I have been celibate for most of my life-which is a struggle, to be sure-but have found healing through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. I also sympathize with women who’ve had abortions. The sister of a close friend of mine had an abortion some years ago. But the Church does have a ministry, “Project Rachael” for Catholic women who’ve had abortions and regretted them. The Church also has a ministry, “Courage,” for gay Catholics who are now celibate. None of us are “irretrievably lost” as Catholics. But we do need to conform our lives to the teachings of the Church, founded by Christ, and “hate the sin, not the sinner.”  Respectfully, Tim Donovan

@Tim: I respect your honesty regarding being gay.  What so many people seem to not understand is that the Catholic Church requires ALL to be chaste.  It doesn’t matter if you are gay, straight or even married.  It is not sinful to be gay.  It IS sinful to engage in homosexual acts just as it is sinful to engage in heterosexual acts outside of marriage.  AND, married people are also required to live chastely—that is, not using artificial birth control. When couples use artificial birth control, they relegate the marital act to its lowest common denominator—sexual gratification.  Also, Tim please know that you are not alone in having not been faithful to Church teachings.  I don’t think there is a Catholic alive who cannot also say the same thing.  We live in a sex-saturated society and have been for over 50 years.  It is no wonder that hedonism is the new religion of our country.  You are absolutely correct in stating that it is through the Graces of the Sacraments, particularly Penance and Holy Communion that we are able to overcome our concupiscience.  God bless you, Tim!

I am puzzled by all of the sincere questions here about what the Catholic Church teaches.  I am unsarcastically suggesting that EVERYONE invest in a hardprint copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and look up everything you are wondering about.  You will find all the answers you are seeking along with the theological and pastoral reasons for them with scriptural and document references at the bottom of the each page. 
There really is no legitimate reason for anyone able to post on a blog site to not know exactly what the church teaches on faith and morals.

@Therese:  Wow…I am at a loss on how to respond to your comments…

@Joanp62.  It is odd.  Although, the question seems to have evolved into the viability of life, I think.  Looking at the question as to when abortion might shed some light on the logic.  It seems as if the logic is that if a fetus is not viable, then it’s okay to abort???  Doesn’t make sense to me, but that seems to be what the argument has moved to.  I guess I was just giving them the benefit of the doubt.

@Sexy Sadie,
I would like to thank you once again for sharing your views and the teachings of the Church.  You were patient in your instruction.  Thank you.

A number of you posting on here have commented on how things have gotten worse over the last 50 years and some of you have very strongly derided Vatican II. Yet the same people who say these things seem to think of themselves as the “good Catholics” implying that the rest of us are the “bad Catholics”. The thing is that if you say you are against Vatican II then you are against the Church. So either accept Vatican II or join another church but please don’t come on here posting your hate speak against other Catholics who are supposedly not as good as you when in fact you aren’t even in the Church anymore.

God Bless You!

Truth stirs great controversy yet when all our personal differences and opinions are stripped away the truth still remains. Thank you Simcha, for speaking the truth about our Catholic faith and right of all human lives to exist.

Dear “sexysadie.”  Thanks for your kind words and encouragement. To the women who have lost children due to uncurable genetic diseases, you have my greatest sympathy. I know that because I’m gay, you may believe that I’ve no right to comment on your choices. Perhaps you’re right. However,because of being despondent about being gay, I’ve attempted suicide several times. It’s still a struggle, but I am still glad to be alive. Up until about two weeks ago, I worked part-time with a terrific young man with muscular dystrophy, who is slowly dying. However, he has a great attitude, despite his pain, and has the support of his loving family and caregivers. Unfortunately, due to insulin-dependent diabetes, failed brain surgery 7 years ago, and facing the possibility of a heart pacemaker at age 50, I can no longer drive or work.I’m not looking for pity! I manage by eating as healthy as possible, exercising as my health permits, walking to nearby stores and pharmacies to obtain needed food and medical supplies for my Mom and myself, plus using public transportation to get to a volunteer reading group that I conduct once weekly with disabled adults.I also have the support of my sister and her husband, who work full-time jobs (with my brother-in-law in poor health himself)for providing transportation for my Mom and myself, when they’re available.  My family had to face a situation similiar to the tragedy of the women who’ve lost babies from genetic diseases, when my Dad was in a coma. When my Mom and myself received a phone call from the Catholic hospital he was in, saying that he was in a coma, we rushed down. He was having continual seizures, which upset me so much I broke down in tears. He lingered for a month and my family decided that we would temporarily place him in a good nursing home, and then bring him home to care for him with hospice support.The last time we visited him, he was still in an irrereversible coma and on a feeding tube. My sister had just had her first baby (who spent several days in intensive care at the same hospital), so we were all extremely upset. My Dad died peacefully in our presence, and a religious sister came immediately to pray with us and offer consolation. Long story short, while I certainly don’t believe in extraordinary means to prolong life, I don’t think that a person’s “quality of life” should be our primary concern. My severely disabled people that who are my friends and past clients live their lives to the fullest. Both the Church through its’ various ministries, individual Catholics, and the governement should all play a role in assisting those in need (particularly the Church and we individual Catholics). We need to come together as members of Christ’s Church to both assist our neighbors, and remain faithful to the Church’s teachings, though we all will fail from time to time.  Peace!  Tim Donovan

@SexySadie, (I realize that you do not intend to respond because “I have some kind of problem….”)  I’d just like to point out:

You state:  “Kellyann:  I just don’t know how to respond to your comment.”  Then you proceeded to respond to me, although my post was to Nicole. 
Earlier, you stated (I believe to Rich?)

...“You are right when you say that 50+ years of playing nice with dissenters of the Faith has not produced the intended results.  The Church has lost 5 generations of Catholics to watered down catechesis.  I call them, “Jesus loves me” Catholics.  Both of my younger sisters were robbed of the Faith.”

So how was my later comment out of left field?  You sweepingly state that 5 generations of Catholics were “lost” to watered down catechesis.  Do you not think that insults post-Vatican II Catholics? (rhetorical, because you stated you do not intend to respond to me)
**************************************************************************
Below is just an observation:
**************************************************************************
“Therese:  Wow…I am at a loss on how to respond to your comments…”
Sadie, why do you feel responsible to respond to Therese? She didn’t specifically post to you, and she didn’t ask a question - but made a suggestion - to all people posting in general. (Again - rhetorical question)
**************************************************************************
About 400 posts later, and I still believe that calling Our Lord an idiot is wrong.

With respect, the main problem with President Obama-and yes, he’s done some good, and yes, Republican VP candidate Ryan is certainly not fully in line with Christ’s concern for the poor-is Obama’s HHS regulations, which will go into effect next year. These regulations will require Catholic and other religious hospitals to provide employee health benefits- a good policy-but it will also mean that such coverage will include the dispensing of abotion drugs. According to a 6/16/12 Asociated Press report, one out of every six Americans receive healthcare from Catholic hospitals. When our hospitals close-and sadly, they will- only misery will result. Remaining hospitals will be overwhelmed by the disabled, poor, homeless, immigrants, pregnant women, and pretty much anyone else in need of medical care. I recently was in a secular hospital, and I can tell you that, although many of the staff were good, hardworking professionals, they were indeed already overwhelmed, and some of the nurses made serious errors regarding my healthcare needs. Maintaining Catholic hospitals and charities are essential to the health of our nation. The President’s HHS regulations would mean that Catholic hospitals could only serve people of the Catholic faith. Since most Americans aren’t Catholic, it’s unbelievable that Mr. Obama would be so short-sighted. The President was even willing to close down the federal government because of his insistence on funding Planned Parenthood, which operates the nations largest chain aof abortion clinics in the nation. With respect, Tim Donovan

The term “pro choice catholic” is ridiculous because there is no such thing—It is an attempt to marry the church and politics. The Catholic Church says the abortion is intrinsally evil and any who support it directly or indirectly (by voting for it) are in a perpetual state of mortal sin should they not repent. And, if one willingly dies in a state of mortal sin, one is doomed to hell for all eternity.

I think those that rebel against the church, within the church, in their support of abortion seem to think that Jesus is all forgiving of such an evil sin. He is merciful, and will forgive us only if we repent. However, if we are so stubborn and filled with pride that we go to our grave convinced that the right of someone to kill their unborn child is more important than protecting their unborn child, then we will be subject to His Justice. And, should you want to get a little taste of a Vengeful God, read a few chapters of the Old Testament. God was not shy about dealing out His Justice to many of those who rebelled. Did Satan not do the same?

Bottom line, keep your pride and more unborn children will die. Half of America might not care, but God does. How pleased will He be when he shows each of us how we contibuted to the death of unborn children—that He created and sent to us. You reap what you sow in this life right into the next one. And, to make it to Heaven, one has to work to be Holy on earth, not rebellious.

http://www.thedivinemercy.org/message/devotions/praythechaplet.php

I’m getting bleary-eyed, but if you good people can stand a few more comments. Although I generally agree that people should dress appropriately when attending Mass (no skimpy dresses, no sports jerseys, no work clothes-all of which I’ve seen at my parish) I do think that ultimately, when attending Mass, listening carefully to the readings, Gospel, and receiving Christ in the Eucharist free from mortal sin, is more important than being dressed like a fashion plate. Some people simply can’t afford nice clothes, or do need to dress in work clothes in order to get to their jobs after Mass, or to get home to care for a sick or elderly family member. Also, I do think that in some respects, the reforms of Vatican 2 have meant a loss of faith among many Catholics. Belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is now a minority view among Catholics. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is practically dead. Some people seem to just go through the motions of preparing their children for reception of the Sacraments. Weekly church attendance in the PHiladelphia Archdiocese that I belong to is at about 30%.  That being said, I do think that, on balance, we should respect the reforms of Vatican 2, since our Holy Father is doing his best to keep alive the original intent of the Council. Lastly, with much respect to “JTconway, who posted on 10/2 that the “Catholic Church promotes rituals and rules and this terrible Pope has set us backwards in progress towards the future, and refers to Simcha Fisher as an “arrogant, childish, offensive being.” First, aren’t your comments about Ms. Fisher themselves lacking in charity? RE your comments that Pope Benedict is “terrible” and is setting usbackwards in terms of progress. The Rev. Billy Graham once said, when criticized that he wanted to turn civiliaztion back 200 years, rightly relied words to the effect, “No, I want to set it back 2000 years, to the time of Christ.“Yes, individuals within the Church have their failings. But there are literally thousands of Protestant demonimations. One can simply chose to join another denomination-no one is being held captive to the teachings of The Church, which I believe was founded by Christ.  More civility, please, from all sides in this vital debate to help our Chuch achieve its mission to spread the Gospel. Tim Donovan

@Tim:  You are an extraordinary person to have such insights with having to deal with so many negative aspects of life.  Life can be challenging, to say the least.  The Good Lord will reward you for all the sacrifices you’ve made both personally and toward others.  It is not easy to be celibate. I know because I’ve lived a celibate life, too.  I wanted to make one comment about your statement about Obamacare.  Do you realize that under this plan anyone who does not have health insurance will be forced to buy health insurance?  And, if they can’t, they will be penalized, fined for not having it.  Does that sound fair?  Is that providing health care for all?  And, this is going to cost the taxpayers trillions of dollars, not to mention putting hospitals, clinics and private doctors out of business.  There is no question that something has to be done about our skyrocketing costs and problems with our current health care system.  But, Obama’s plan is not going to help—it is going to make things thousands of times worse.  What we need is to do something about pharmaceutical costs and the outrageous hospital costs through HMO’s.  I don’t know what that will entail, but someone better some up with a better plan than obamacare.

@Tim.. I hope that through everything, you were able to keep your parish.  While the first Philadelphia consolidation focused predominantly on closing our schools, our parishes will now begin to vanish. For the suburban families, many went to public schools, in order to keep their children together.  Many schools forced to merge did not have enough room for all of the children.  My children are now in two different schools.  Living in Philadelphia proper doesn’t give one much of a public school choice, but I was forced into sending one of my children to a public school.  Watching the ethnic parishes close was as difficult as losing our schools, so I hope that with everything else going on in your life, you were at least able to keep your church.

Confused, I am a bit confused by your post to me. I do not know what is odd. Viability of the fetus should not normally come into play with regard to abortion because many times the doctor will predict that the child will not make it, and a healthy baby is born in spite of these predictions.
So, we should not intentionally kill an unborn baby just because it might not live anyway.

@Joan:  “Viability” is another one of those catch phrases used by the pro-aborts.  I don’t think Confused was supporting it, I think he/she was asking about it.  Viability is the supposed state of a human life being able to sustain its own life.  The pro-aborts use this term to say that non-viability is a reasonable excuse for abortion.  Which is absolutely ridiculous.  A year old baby isn’t “viable” nor are some fully grown humans!  It’s just another smoke screen to hide the fact that abortion is a barbaric and heinous crime against the most defenseless of human life seen as an inconvenience to the carefree lifestyle of its mother.  It is the most despicable form of child abuse possible.  I always wonder why people are horrified when they hear of a mother killing her child/ren, yet do not feel the same way when faced with the horror of abortion.

Thanks to “sexyxadie” and “kellyanne” for your kind words of encouragement, and further information about the perils of The President’s HHS regulations. I agree with “sexysadie” that viability is an arbitrary line in which to define when a human being comes into existence. As you point out, there are many born people who have such physical or emotional limitations that they are truly not “viable.“On an unrealted topic, one of my favorite TV shows is “The Middle,” starring Patricia Heaton, honorary chairwoman of “Feminists for Life.” It’s a realistic portrayal of middle class life, and extermely funny. However, on one episode they had Whoppi Goldberg guest star. While Ms. Goldberg can be humorous at times, she has had so many abortions that she’s not even sure of the number (and was raised as a Catholic). She has wrote a book “The Book”, in which she used foul language at attack the late Pope John Paul for his stand against legal abortion and gay marriage. Ironically, she served as a member of President Clinton’s board on how to find ways to reduce teen pregnancy. She’s also has appeared on Hollywood Award shows, shouting the slogan “Choose Choice.” Arather baffling comment. Seems to me it implies that one can choose to do as one please, without any consequences. Anyone agree?      With respect Tim Donovan

Hi Kellyanne. I may have already posted this comment re: information about Phila. Mayor Nutter’s visit to Catholic schools. Nutter visited Little Flower High School for Girls on 9/11/12. The info. can be found in the 9/30 issue of Our Sunday Visitor newspaper on page 2. Take care. Tim

@ Tim….Thank you, I found the article.

@Tim…I think that a lot of people of either gender, any religion, ethnicity - etc. believe that “anything goes” regarding their actions.  With the way social media is so “instantaneous”, I don’t think that there are too many shocking things left to see or hear.  That is the sad reality in which we live today.

@Tim Donovan:  Thanks for pointing these 2 women out.  Now there is a perfect choice regarding Hollywood.  Catholic Whoopie (pro abortion) Goldberg —-or Christian (pro life) Patrica Heaton who also chose to home school her kids.  Very likely you will not see Heaton as a guest on the *The View* and subjected to Whoopie, Joy and Barbara (“I’ll sleep with anybody to advance my career) Walters.

@Tim:  I am very familiar with the “Feminists for Life”—they are an extraordinary organization of women feminists who do not buy into the radical feminist ideology. I subscribe to their website and their literature.  Patricia Heaton, by the way, is a Catholic.  I never heard of Whoopi being a Catholic.  She may have gone to Catholic school, but I didn’t know that she was raised Catholic.  I thought I had read somewhere that she converted to Judaism—but I may be mistaken.  Whoopi is a typical product of hollywood.  There are so few in hollywood who aren’t infected with greed, hedonism, and narcissism, that it is almost a complete waste of time to watch TV or go to the movies.  I think the last time I went to a theatre was to see “The Passion of the Christ” and before that I hadn’t been to see a movie since “Rain Man”.

@SexySadie:  I saw Heaton interviewed on Leno.  She said she was raised Catholic but is now a Christian.  That’s where my information came from.  Just sayin’ ...

@CC: Thanks for the update. Whatever her religious affiliation, she is a rarity in hollywood.

Yes, sad to say, but Whoppi Goldberg was raised Catholic and did attend Catholic schools, but obviously has renounced her faith. Ironically, her daughter became pregnant (despite being provided with all the contraceptive information that money can buy). To her credit, Ms. Goldberg’s daughter did choose life for her baby. Ms. Heaton is a remarkable woman. It’s my understanding that she was raised Catholic, and is now a Presbyterian. In any event, sheis a fine role model, and is a genuine Christian. To Kellyanne: I’m glad that you found the article re” Mayor Nutter in Our Sunday Visitor.  Tim Donovan

This is a poorly written vial of acid that accomplishes nothing.  While i agree with the underlying premise, i object to the crass way in which it is written, including name-calling, such as “idiot.”  It certainly does not “respect the human dignity of those about whom you report.”

i wonder what is the purpose of this kind of article, other than a cathartic release for the writer.  I direct your attention to the words of the Bishops:

CIVILITY IN MEDIA – A STATEMENT OF THE U.S. CATHOLIC BISHOPS.
(excerpt)

“Search for the truth, report the truth, and respect the human dignity of those about whom you report.”

“Among the behaviors that demonstrate a lack of civility are

-Elevating rumor to fact;
-Distorting the words or opinions of others, in particular by taking them out of context or putting them into a context for which they were not intended;
-Presuming deceitful and mendacious motives on the part of others;
-Engaging in personal attacks that not only belittle or defame the individuals involved but also risk spreading scandal, confusion, and doubt.

CIVILITY IN MEDIA
(Excerpt)
Copyright © 2000
United States Catholic Conference, Inc.
Washington, D.C.
Publication No. 5-382
ISBN 1-57455-382-8

The tone of this article is exactly why people hate the Church. It’s not what you’re saying. It’s how you’re saying it.

Tony, I’m not sure that anyone is “against Vatican II”. The problem over the past 40+ years is the way many in the Church tried to implement VII. Instead of going by what the documents actually said, they made changes via a vague “spirit of Vatican II” that never existed.

Now, our Holy Father is trying to correct all those abuses of the Council and set things right in accordance with the Council docs, and some are claiming that it is the Pope who is going against VII! Umm, Pope Benedict and John Paul II took part in the Council in helping to write up the Documents. I think they know what VII intended.

Yeah, brava Simcha!  Brava for the pious, smug and smug self righteousness that has driven this former Catholic and many others from a church that, thorough its “holy” power and blind eye supported priest raping children, marginalization of women and harsh, exclusionary treatment of gays (God’s children, btw).  Brava to the ignorance of the statement in the Bible to refrain from judgment.  And BRAVA to all of God’s warriors for their never ending crusade to rid the world of people who think for themselves and don’t feel it’s their place to pass judgment.  The free thinkers certainly have drunk the alter wine and are most anti-Catholic.  Think for ourselves!? Gasp!  How dare we!

Peter,

I notice that whenever the immoral left uses the phrase “think for yourself” it always means one wants to do some immoral sexual act that should never be done. In some strange, absurd way that means “thinking for yourself”.

How come “thinking for yourself” never means submitting to Christ?

Posted by Dane on Tuesday, Oct 9, 2012 5:29 AM (EST):

The tone of this article is exactly why people hate the Church. It’s not what you’re saying. It’s how you’re saying it.
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Untrue. People spend all their time crying about the “tone” because they hate the message.

Posted by Silver Parnell on Tuesday, Oct 9, 2012 12:41 AM (EST):

This is a poorly written vial of acid that accomplishes nothing. 
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The irony is too much. Pot meet kettle.

In the midst of much concerted effort to attempt respectful dialogue and conversation that truly respects communion, this article disappoints. Catholic across the spectrum are striving to speak across disagreement (both fundamental and minor) with empathy, awareness, respect and humility. Please join us.

dear ms fisher, thank you!I find many of the neg comment so hypocritical! why? u see civility only applies to the faithfull catholics!So when they rant and rave over ur tone don"t worry! it only exposes them! this Katholyc croud r very slick u see! in all outward appearence they look and sound Catholic! in reality they r feverishly working to undermind and harm the Body of Christ! so it is very good every once and awhile to lob a hand grenade. like roaches they come out of hiding so we can see who they r. this has to be done on the parish level. the heresy of modernism has has crept in over the yrs and now has to be rooted out! we r in a fight for the very soul of the Church! our holy faithful priest have to regain their confidence and like u lob some hand grenades from the pulpit. bishops too! even though the fight is spiritual, we r flesh and blood. it’s going to get bloody, but we r assured by Christ of victory!

“In the midst of much concerted effort to attempt respectful dialogue and
conversation that truly respects communion, this article disappoints.
Catholic across the spectrum are striving to speak across disagreement (both
fundamental and minor) with empathy, awareness, respect and humility. Please
join us.”

YES!

hey mnr, no thanks! let me ask u.for the last 50 yrs of “attempts at nice, respectful dialogue and conversation that truly respect communion”. How has that working out???

Posted by NMR on Tuesday, Oct 9, 2012 12:54 PM (EST):

In the midst of much concerted effort to attempt respectful dialogue and conversation that truly respects communion, this article disappoints. Catholic across the spectrum are striving to speak across disagreement (both fundamental and minor) with empathy, awareness, respect and humility. Please join us.
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What does any of that really mean?

Yes, we should always be respectful. Yes we should always be charitable. The problem is any plain talk is immediately deemed disrespectful or uncharitable.

The problem is that too many immediately attack the speaker instead of the message. It really is mostly a bunch of hand wringing and false compassion.

Ceratin topics require a straight forward approach. Does that mean every single circumstance calls for the exact same approach, no. It also does not mean that every robust defense of the truth must be effette and watered down so that no person can claim illegitimate offense.

ALL CATHOLICS WORSHIP AN IDIOT GOD!

Troll…

Well, I can honestly say that this whole forum has devolved into a hateful bantering back and forth of accusatory attacks on who is the better Catholic. I guess I’ll be bowing out now.  I simply will not participate in this kind of gutter-level in-fighting.  If NCR had any sense, they’d close this up right now. It serves no purpose but to continue this disgusting display of haughtiness.  This is a perfect example of why the Church is in chaos today.  Everyone considers themselves their own little mini-magisterium.  Well, good luck with all of that.

To those that accuse us of having a secret agenda of disagreeing with the message when we object to the name-calling and rude approach of this blog post, i will say that (1) in my case you are wrong, as i specifically stated and (2) you are “presuming deceitful and mendacious motives,” among other things.  Doing so in a public forum transmits a lie to other persons.  It isn’t just uncivil, it is sinful.

This is what our bishops have to say:

“Among the behaviors that demonstrate a lack of civility are

-Elevating rumor to fact;
-Distorting the words or opinions of others, in particular by taking them out of context or putting them into a context for which they were not intended;
-Presuming deceitful and mendacious motives on the part of others;
-Engaging in personal attacks that not only belittle or defame the individuals involved but also risk spreading scandal, confusion, and doubt.

CIVILITY IN MEDIA
(Excerpt)
Copyright © 2000
United States Catholic Conference, Inc.
Washington, D.C.
Publication No. 5-382
ISBN 1-57455-382-8