So, I go for a walk in the mountains. Halfway up, I come across a little unexpected stream, with bracing cold water that sparkles over the mossy stones. The sweet smell of the waving weeds intoxicates me, and for one giddy moment, the shadow of a falcon races over my path. There are berries and wildflowers, sweet breezes and a new kind of birdsong, something wild and delightful that I’ve never heard before.
So I tell everyone about it. Most people say, “How beautiful! I love the mountains, too.” But one guy sneers, “Yeahhh, I’d scuttle up there too, if I shared your primitive fear of carnivorous valley monsters.”
I go, “Huh?”
And another guy goes, “Why, I don’t blame you a bit. It’s probably emotionally healthy for someone with your neurotic anxiety over coronary disease to take an aerobic uphill hike.”
And I go, “Yeah, but—”
That’s kind of how I feel when I talk about being a Catholic, and two different types of atheists respond. When I posted about my little girl’s belief in God, the first type berated me for “[t]elling a 5-year-old they need to obey a magical ghost who lives in the clouds or else terrible things will happen to them.”
And I’m like, “Huh?”
And the second one is like the much more civil atheist, who said that he would have had a far less polite response to the first atheist, speaking “as someone who doesn’t worry about going to hell for doing whatever I feel like.”
And I go, “Yeah, but—”
These two atheists have something startling in common: They both assume that a major feature of Catholic life is a constant fear of Hell.
Now, I believe in Hell. And I do fear it. At least two of my daily prayers specifically ask God to preserve me from that fate. But does a fear of Hell motivate good behavior?
When someone is nasty to me, my first reaction is to respond in kind (and too often, I give in). My second reaction, though, is to say, “Wait, wait, wait. Can I do a little better?” And why would I do that?
Imagine that I’m sitting at a table with a beloved friend and mentor—someone who has always been kind and patient with me, and who is always secretly fixing things up to make my life better. Today he has prepared a delicious meal, with all my favorites: five courses, perfectly matched wines, everything fresh and prepared with love and skill.
So I’m enjoying this meal tremendously, talking, laughing, having a wonderful time. Suddenly my host looks out the window and says, “Oh look, it’s that guy who commented on your post! Why don’t you wrap up one of these extra rolls and toss it to him?”
And I say, “NO!!! No, no, NO! It’s mine, all mine! I’m too tired! He’s a jerk! Why should I! Nobody cares about me! I can’t spare it anyway! I can’t believe you expect me to do that! Wahhhhhhhh!” and I fall to the floor, pulling the tablecloth with me, and lie there in a puddle of spilled gravy and broken glass.
Or, I could say, “Ehh, it’s just a roll, and I have this huge feast. Okay, buddy—my host seems to see something in you that I don’t. So here you go.” And I do it because I love my host. Am I afraid that he might cut me out of his will if I don’t share the roll? Maybe—but in practice, the relationship just isn’t like that. I worry less about his wrath than I do about my own foolishness: When I behave badly, it’s because I’m not thinking of him or his generosity at all.
Most of the time, when God asks us to do something good—to do something better than our original impulse—we do it not out of fear of punishment, but because we recognize that God is so good to us, so generous. And most of the time, all he asks us to do is to toss the other guy a roll. It’s not fear that motivates good behavior. It’s because we realize that God has given us a tremendous amount of love, and the least we can do is to pass it on from time to time.
Is the fear of Hell a useful way to control my sinfulness? Sometimes. But most often, if I commit a mortal sin, it’s when my heart is halfway in Hell anyway—so the fear of going there is not much of a deterrent. I behave much better when, rather than trying to avoid Hell, I’m trying to act more like I’m already in Heaven. I’m much more likely to share the wealth if I take a minute to look around and realize what a feast I have in front of me.
Believe it or not, atheists, but that’s how it goes!
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Love, love, love this post! You really hit the nail on the head, Simcha!
Simcha, I don’t know if it says something about you or about me that I first read that line as “Why don’t you wrap up one of these extra rolls and toss it AT him?”
Remember The Onion story in the Brothers K? Sooo true!!!
HAHA Dave, I read it like that too! Great Post Simcha and great imagery…I love the gravy and broken glass image. Sometimes we are so good at messing up the beauty and love that God hands us, leaving everything covered in spilled gravy and broken glass.
“I behave much better when, rather than trying to avoid Hell, I’m trying to act more like I’m already in Heaven.”
I love this line. So true.
And sometimes God asks you, not only to toss them a roll but ask them to sit down next to you and actually serve them!!!! Argh - such mercy, such grace, such love and I regularly miss the mark on all of them!
Fantastic post!
Truthfully, when I saw the title I was like “Uh oh.. Do I wanna read about thisand get scared about Hell?”
Awesome and I love the “toss a roll” analogy!
I’ll carry it as a reminder with me always :)
this post rocks! I love the light and comical tone, it really conveys the reality of hell… thanks!
If Heaven exists, so must Hell. If people go to “a better place”, so must people go to “a worst place”.
Love is just. Justice is impartial. It is not enough for love to be just in personal matters.
When people, in anger, say “Rot in Hell!” they show, ironically, their belief in some kind of justice.
When people, in love, say “We’ll spend eternity in Heaven” they show their belief in some kind of love.
So people have a sense of justice and of love; it’s just that it’s often personal, not objective.
Love, Mercy & Justice
What strikes me most about all of this are 2 things. The first is how thie construction of things is very unlike the approach scripture takes when discussing hell. When Christ himself talks about it, well it sounds very much like he wants you to in fact fear it. Think about the imagery in Mark 9:43-48 where we are told better to pluck out ones eye, or cut off ones limb and enter into blind or maimed then be thrown into Gehenna with unquentable fire, where the “worm dies not”. Similarly in Luke 12:5 and Matt 10:28 we are told rather explicitly to fear him who can cast into Gehenna. It seems to me also true that in an earlier age ( a pre Vatican II age, if you would like) the sermons were much more along the lines of fearing hell. It was beyond awful and it was a real possibility. Clearly the early Christians who were martyred thought there was some sort of “urgency” to the gospel message. I am not sure martydom makes much sense if it is only about spreading a message of “happiness” or fulfilment. Rather it seems to be about “salvation”. But if its about “salvation” what exactly are we “saved” from?
The other thing that strikes me is how all of this “happy talk” about a warm and cuddly beloved mentor God, correlates with the depth of religous feeling now. If you compare the number of Catholics who attend mass, get married in the Church, become priests, etc we see basically an implosion of the Church. ( Yes, Yes I know all about the new Springtime, stronger more devout Church now even if smaller, with new “John Paul II Priests”,etc..) Still it seems to me if you were a neutral outside observer you would say the new happy face we have put on God, with lots more emphasis on his love etc.. has not been associated with fewer atheists, but rather lots more of them, or if not atheists people for whom religion is irrelevant. ( At least this is what the polls and the closing churches demonstrate ! ) It should be easy to see why. Without a real “fear of God” Christianity makes no sense. The basic premise would be absurd. Christians believe ( (or at least used to believe,) That man was stained by both original sin and actual sin, and the “wages of sin are death” Specifically mortal sin “Besides depriving the sinner of sanctifying grace, mortal sin makes the soul an enemy of God, takes away the merit of all its good actions, deprives it of the right to everlasting happiness in heaven, and makes it deserving of everlasting punishment in hell.” So said the old Baltimore Catechism. We are saved from this awful fate by repentance, the avoidance of mortal sin, the grace given through the sacrements. Under this formulation, the Great Commission to preach the gospel and make believers of all nations and urgency to accept the faith some sense. After all you risked eternal loss if you did not possess the faith. You had no access to the sacraments! “No one comes to the Father but through me” says Jesus.. And not getting to the Father meant.. well it meant the place of unquenchable fire where the worm dies not. Ok under this scheme I can at least understand, In what sense being a Christian was so important. If you really belived this was the way reality was, then this message of eternal life versus eternal death was the most important thing in the world. “The Pearl of Great Price” if you will. One would risk everything for it. Whether or not to be a Christian really meant something crucial. Under the current dispensation, Well not so much. Its not clear to me why its so important. It sounds like a Christian would say, they are just happier, more fulfilled to know how much God loves them… Err ok.. Is this something one should get eaten by lions over? Stoned to death? Crucified? If thats all we are talking about it seems like if people don’t like the message you should just stop talking about it! What exactly does a Christian get that a non Christian does not get? Consider a reasonably pleasent and personable non believer, why should they rethink this atheism thing? If one is an atheist I think a perfectly reasonable response to all this is, very well.. you do not voerly fear hell, but you are nice because you are so grateful to your imaginary God who loves you so much, I can be just as nice beacuse I too seek every day to be a better person, just because….. fill in the reason. It might make us feel good to think about God as nice and warm and madly in love with us, but in the absence of the counterweight of an older teaching that an infinitely just God is infinitely offended even with venial sin Christianity makes no sense. At the very least the urgency of the preaching which lead the fathers of the Church to martyrdom seems crazy. The essential need for Christianity evaporates. What rationale could be given to the non believer that one should become a Christian other than the argument that you are happier or feel more fullfilled? I think this “experience Gods woderful Love” argument has been the one in play for the last 50 years or so, and if you judge by the objective evidence Church has been receeding ever since. Maybe its time to look at what the Church was claiming, and what the Saints were saying at time when the Church was actually growing, and the issue was not only God’s love but alos the need to escape his wrath. (It is amazing at time when the world is seeing depravity which would make the pagans blush, there is anyone making the case that the problem is too much fear of God
Besides if all catholics lived in constant terror of hell we probably all be saints, or at least no one would sin anymore :P
In the middle-ages many, if not most, did believe in Hell, yet that did not stop some people from being criminals or do immoral acts.
Fear of Hell is like the fear from the police or prison: as long s you abide to the Law you have nothing to fear… but even if you fear it it does not stop everyone from breaking the Law anyway.
AS atheist goes: well their common lack of civility and respect says it all (except for a few of them).
@mrd - No one is suggesting that we do away with the fear of hell. Hell is real, and we SHOULD fear it. But it is also true that GOD is real, and we should love him and serve him simply because he deserves to be loved & served by us to the very best of our capacity. If fear of hell most motivating reason a person has for loving & serving God with all his heart and avoiding sin, fine. That is how most “children in the faith” start out serving God. But we are called to rise above that “more base” motivation and to love God simply because He deserves all our love. It’s a more mature and more pure motivation. It’s as the old “Act of Contrition” says: “... I detest all my sins because of Thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love.”
Simcha is just pointing out in this wonderful blog that the atheists who are responding to her just can’t seem to fathom anyone having a higher motivation than the fear of hell, so they assume that that must be her ONLY motivation for loving God.AmyA
I liked the post, I also liked the response from mrd up there - or the amount of it I read anyway. (about 33%) So hard to read this one giant paragraph format.
Anyway, there is a balance here that we need to strike. We should and DO need to FEAR Hell. However, our motivation to avoid it should come from love of God. LOVE OF GOD, by loving our neighbor. In other words our fear should be to end up without God - as that is what Hell is.
So, yes, Jesus talks about Hell explicitly - and often. But I do not believe he did so to SCARE us into acting good. Because that would conflict with his instructions about how to avoid Hell, and yes, that message was love, and self-sacrifice. Rather, I believe that Jesus was merely stating the facts about Hell. Horrible, terrible place. He IS the Truth, so he could tell us nothing less.
I would go so far as to say that, if and when we spend too much time thinking about or dwelling on the subject of Hell, we are actually doing the Devils work. That creature wants us to be focused on him and scared of him so that we are not focused on God and loving God. So, Jesus, wanted us to surely be aware of the consequences of failing to live up to His commandments, but his message was LOVE! Love God, by loving your neighbor. Sacrifice and suffer for Him and you need not worry about anything.
“I fall to the floor, pulling the tablecloth with me, and lie there in a puddle of spilled gravy and broken glass.”
Perfect! Sin is pretty childish, isn’t it?
Shorter mrd, from William Boyd’s PBS series Any Human Heart:
[When] Peter Scabius, friend of Logan Montstuart, tells him that he is going to become a Roman Catholic -
Montstuart: “Oh, you’re just being like Waugh…Why don’t you just become
a pious Anglican?”
Scabius: “I need a savage, unforgiving, brutal God. I don’t want some
bourgeois Anglican god I can have a nice cup of tea with. I want to be
frightened of my deity, in awe.”
I like this post in general, Ms. Fischer. But I would have to say that there’s a bit of tension that exists between love of God and fear of Hell, for all of our imperfect understanding of God’s love (such that it takes a lifetime to understand it).
There is one version of the Act of Contrition that points out that it’s not because you fear Hell that you confess, but because you are heartily sorry for having offended God, who is goodness itself, and whom you should love above all things. And yet, what impresses upon us that God is so good is because of what Hell is: Fr. Robert Barron, who expounds on Dante’s Divine Comedy, points out that Hell is the soul growing smaller, turning in upon itself in selfishness, always fearing and never trusting. That is precisely what mortal sin does. And Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger in God and the World pointed out something similar: that wailing and gnashing of teeth is us as our souls become smaller and colder—we gnash our teeth and wail because we are so cold. So in a real sense, you’re right that when we commit mortal sin, your soul is halfway into Hell, anyway. But here comes the deterrent: imagine that for all eternity. It’s bad enough that we see it in this life—people tripping over each other and pulling each other down in order to “get ahead,” only to be running in place the whole time. Remembering that Hell is that sort of thing and more for all eternity really sucks.
Of note, and I don’t think too many Catholics realize this, punishment out of fear of hell (which is called attrition) combined with the firm intent not to commit that mortal sin again is sufficient for the forgiveness of sins when done at sacramental confession. You do not have to actually be sorry for those sins (which is called true contrition). However, true contrition is necessary for the forgiveness of sins outside of sacramental confession, and is a very hard standard to seemingly achieve. So, the fear of Hell is actually meaningful and efficacious in Catholic theology.
.........ahhhhhhh, but atheists don’t act on their “convictions”....if they did they’d do whatever, whenever they wanted with no fear of retribution !!!!! If they excessively did, “civil authority” would put them “out of their misery”, and they would have no more “earthly problems” to deal with…walah…..done !!!!!!!!! However, they “exist” in this world, with all its degeneration, and want to “live’ forever !!!!!!!! Amen !!!!!!
That first line of my previous post should read “...grief of punishment out of fear of hell…”
Mrd: You say you’re taking issue with Simcha’s approach for scriptural reasons. But it seems to me you have to ignore a lot of scripture to say that. E.g., your own example is the parable of the pearl of great price. If Jesus meant what you say there, why did he choose to describe a great treasure to be gained, rather than a great punishment to be avoided, as you claim he really meant? Many of the parables about the kingdom of heaven are very similar. It seems to me Simcha’s way is the straightforward way to read such passages, not yours. (Not to say Jesus doesn’t sometimes talk about hell, too, but sheesh, does that make talking about heaven modernist happy-talk?)
I agree that the fear of hell is overrated by most atheists, as a motivating factor. There is also a difference between belief that is motivated by fear and moral actions that are.
Belief is such a personal thing, it is hard to talk about other people’s reasons for believing , or not, and whether “fear of hell” is ought to be brought back, as suggested by the poster “mrd” above. To be honest, the “fear of hell” that used to be so evident was at least as much about harsher social repercussions for disbelief or immorality than there are now.
We also spend a lot of our time and energy today ignoring the reality of death and disease, frantically encouraging confidence in our ability to study or medicate everything into submission, so that hell seems to be an absurdity. How could anyone fear everlasting fire? We are too anxious making sure our air conditioners work so we won’t be too hot in the summer!
Very illuminating post! And so true. I think you’ve managed to portray a little bit of each one of us here…
Very illuminating post! So very true. I think you’ve managed to portray a little bit of each one of us here…
We can reflect on the new testament parable of The Yates ( the occasion of this parable : Sermon on the sea- shore) ,the lesson of this parable; The severance of good and evil reserved for the future ( the Gospel of Matthew 13:24-30)
Biblical revelations on the offices of Good angels that will guide us from fear to confidence. By trusting ourselves to their offices:
1. They wait on God ( 1Kings 22:15-19)
2 Announce God’s Law ( Acts 7:53)
3 Convey God’s messages( Luke 1:18-19)
4 Protect God’s people ( Genesis 19:12-17)
6 Inflict Divine penalties ( 2 Samuel 24:16)
7 Ministering Spirits ( 1kings 19:5,7)
8 Are Guardians of cities and nations ( Ezekiel 9:1)
9 Share in the counsels of God ( Zechariah 1:12-13)
10 Sound the apocalyptic Trumpets ( Revelation 7:2,6)
11 Gather the elect to judgment ( Matthew 24:31)
Catechism of the Catholic church on Heaven/ Earth# 325-349
Catechism of the catholic church on “FEAR”
1. man’s freedom # 1735( imputability for an act)
2 The morality of the passions #1765
3 The gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit ( Fear of the Lord) #1831
A beautiful and truthful and extremely well written article that broke through to my soul. I liked nearly all the comments and particularly the one from Wsquared that referred to Father Robert Barron and his exposition on Dante’s Divine Comedy.
Nice post but not what I see in my Atheist community. We don’t often confront theists unless it is forced on us.
Kids get a free pass in my experience since they are normally doing their parents religion, not one they freely chose.
I agree that MRD would be more successful if she used paragraphs.
I like a civil society. If it takes hell, fear of the police, or societal pressure, letting people believe whatever is ok. BUT, I don’t want a flat earther flying my plane, a YEC teaching evolution, or Abstenance alone taught in health class.
I hope you all plan a trip to the authors local to enjoy the beauty of nature this summer.
Change your life forever, Turn left in stead of right out of your driveway. Your life will never be the same and you won’t know how it has changed.
Rover.
Simcha, I didn’t mean to sound patronizing with my comment at the other thread, I’m sorry if that’s how I came across. Thanks for clarifying this point about fear of hell.
Oh, sorry, Tyler - I think I got carried away when writing! You really didn’t sound condescending—except insofar as, you know, being misunderstood feels like being condescended to, but that’s not your fault. Thanks for reading!
To MRD et al: I apologize if I didn’t make this clear, but what I really wanted to talk about was whether or not fear of hell is an effective way to motivate good behavior. In my personal experience, other ways of thinking of my relationship with God bore much better fruit. However, naturally I believe that fear of hell has its proper place, and while it should not be one’s entire experience of religion, it shouldn’t be glossed over, either.
/
I liked this line from Wsquared: “But I would have to say that there’s a bit of tension that exists between love of God and fear of Hell, for all of our imperfect understanding of God’s love (such that it takes a lifetime to understand it).” I completely agree, and because of this I think it’s completely appropriate to spend copious amounts of time thinking both of God’s justice and God’s mercy. I understand that folks like MRD are frustrated when it seems like catechism these days is all squish and no hard edge. But I sometimes have the impression that the ones who always insist on all hard edge all the time, and have no patience at all for talk of mercy, don’t . . . actually believe in heaven. Or halfway hope it’s almost empty.
/
People arrive at a knowledge of God from all different places in their lives. For example, I know of one woman who has regular nightmares that God is a black monster who is chasing her. I would say that she is someone who needs to hear more about mercy and less about judgment.
/
For future reference: in order to form paragraphs in this comment form, press enter, then a slahsh mark or dash or whatever, then enter again, then begin a new paragraph. MRD, I admit I skimmed your word brick - my eyes were crossing.
Simcha,
I think that the reason people do good is a mishmash of motivations, for your average self-proclaimed believer. Moral/spiritual maturity is often defined as choosing the Good simply because it is Good. But most people have lots of reasons for not punching that jerk of a cashier in the face, or forgiving the spouse who cheats, or etc. When it comes to civil laws, like speeding or tailgating, I would say people are thinking about getting caught more than they are thinking, “Gee my excessive speed poses a danger to the children I have in the car and is therefore immoral…”
/
Atheists look around and see lots of people who claim to believe but who are really controlling their basest impulses out of fears of social repercussions, or not controlling them at all and still spouting off about their churches. I think people are more often afraid of taking charge of their own free will, than they are of someplace real called hell.
Totally not adding anything of substance to the convo here but. . .
to the reference of “making the pagans blush”, I’m kind of tired of this line. I’m pretty sure we haven’t invented anything new. I am not sure why people think 20th century America is so special with how we sin. Horrendous as they are, they have all been done before. It’s just now, we have it on the cover of every news magazine or blog.
In fact, our pastor (a history or scripture buff) tried to point out one sunday how we haven’t cooked anything up “now a days” that hadn’t been being done back in the greek or roman times (or even before) and God’s mercy is no less needed or given then as it is now.
Wow. Hit it outta the park. You are one smart lady!
COUNCIL OF TRENT
DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION
CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that the fear of hell,-whereby, by grieving for our sins, we flee unto the mercy of God, or refrain from sinning,-is a sin, or makes sinners worse; let him be anathema.
This is called imperfect contrition (sorrow from our sins over fear of hell). Perfect contrition is when we repent of our sins for love of God and consequent sorrow of having offended Him.
Still, note that it is absolutely anathema to suggest that the fear of hell is in any way sinful. God bless. :-)
As a Benedictine Oblate I read Benedict’s Holy Rule every day. Here are a few of his instruments of work. I never used to think much of hell.I think that’s common for our times. But the closer I get to Jesus the more I dread Hell and separation from him who is EVERYTHING. I wish they would talk about hell more in church, it’s made a big difference in my life reflecting on heaven and hell everyday.It helps me remember that this earth is just a glimpse of my eternal life.
44. To fear the days of judgment.
45. To be in dread of hell.
46. To desire everlasting life with all spiritual longing.
47. To keep death daily before one’s eyes.
48. To keep guard at all times over the actions of one’s life.
49. To know for certain that God sees one in every place.
@Nishant: Did anyone here suggest that fear of hell is sinful?
Another great post Simcha. Loved it.
cheers
Well, I didn’t mean to suggest anyone had, Simcha. Just thought we should remember the boundaries established by the Church on this subject. Great article, by the way. God bless. :-)
This is a really excellent point! Growing up, in something of a fire and brimstone household, I used to be bored by the endless sermons on God’s love. Honestly, a lot of these people had enough self-love that they hardly needed to hear how great God thinks we all are. (They needed the priest to whup out a can of the Old Testament!)
But I have come to think two different things on this issue since then. 1.) Becoming a parent has allowed me to understand what it means to love someone heartily and forgive them easily (St. Therese was right, a child being affectionate is irresistible to a parent), and there is no real way to emphasize enough how much God really does love us, and 2.) priests should spend more time catechizing people because most of us wouldn’t have gotten it at the half-assed CCD programs/Catholic school programs that were in effect when we were growing up. Erin Manning makes a good point about this need for better homiletics (http://redcardigan.blogspot.com/2010/10/church-in-america-crisis-of-faith-and.html), to help the “I’m Catholic, but” crowd understand that this isn’t actually a possible stance. You’re Catholic or you’re not.
Also, is it possible to let commentators make their names into live links? I really like following them to your readers’ sites.
Simcha,
Thank you so much for this and so many of your other articles! I also thought the roll was being thrown AT the person;-) I also love the whole pulling the table clothe down imagery; of course I have never had such a moment;-) ;-);-)
“Most of the time, when God asks us to do something good—to do something better than our original impulse—we do it not out of fear of punishment”
Why not ALL of the time?
“Is the fear of Hell a useful way to control my sinfulness?”
But it’s soooo childish. Apparently you were well-indoctrinated as a child.
“Without a real “fear of God” Christianity makes no sense.”
Precisely - original sin, redemption, heaven, hell - it’s all part of the package. And that package does not make a lick of sense.
“But we are called to rise above that “more base” motivation and to love God simply because He deserves all our love.”
Unfortunately, this only follows under the assumption that a god exists. And it really does not provide any guide for “morality”.
atheists “can’t seem to fathom anyone having a higher motivation than the fear of hell”
That’s not very “christian” of you. Perhaps something like “do unto others ...” might be considered a motivation. There’s also that “jail” thing. The point is “fear of hell” is a terrible motivation. Terrible to teach children and apparently easy enough for adults to ignore.
Thank you Simcha. I see this ridiculous straw man everywhere and it grates on my nerves like fingernails on a chalkboard (I wonder what grated on people’s nerves before there were chalkboards?).
Great post! I wrote about something similar in my blog: http://leadingme.tumblr.com/post/12572226592/god-is-good
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