I don’t know pat…I know we are to turn the other cheek and not argue etc..but in doing so 50 MILLION innocent babies have been murdered in their own mothers womb for the sake of convenience…..a breakdown of moral standards and the rejection of God in our world is the cause of the problems in our world….instead of watching priest after priest on t.v. saying they don’t know why terrible things happen to innocent people…I for one would like to see ONE priest, JUST ONE…lay into the pagan media and blast it and say, THAT ITS BECAUSE OUR WORLD IS DEAD IN SIN AND HAS TURNED AWAY FROM GOD AND ALL OF HIS COMMANDMENTS….we need priests in the mode of St. John the Baptist and his fiery in your face language to give it to the media, the President, and the democrat anti-God party..

Robert
Perhaps you did not read far enough before commenting. I said “Argue with them.  Try to sway them. And listen to them.  But in all things, treat them with respect. “

I know pat, but being kind has gotten 50 million dead babies, heretics destroying the Church because of leaders being to nice to the destroyers of the Faith…it was nothing against your article, its just that being nice hasn’t made a difference in the Church or the culture in the last 40 years…all its done is make society snowball itself into hell

The truth is that we have chosen to forget and ignore Truth in the name of a false charity that endorses the anything goes mentality.  We are told many a time by priests and bishops,  “God loves us, we all go to heaven and there is no hell”  we know this is a lie.

When we ignore truth there will be no justice.  Justice is to give each one not more or less than one deserves.  It is God’s law that every human being deserves to live, earn a just wage, have food, clothing and shelter, get an education, have health care when sick, be protected by the law, be able to protect themselves and their families and worship God in freedom.

When we have this true Justice there will be Peace. 

Psalms 84:11: Mercy and truth have met each other: justice and peace have kissed.
Ephesians 4:24: And put on the new man, who according to God is created in justice and holiness of truth.

I have two thoughts on this. First, perhaps we should be talking about SELF control, and not exclusively gun control. We have put numerous laws into place to limit access to guns, yet the mass incidents have gotten more heinous. Gun control measures are the low hanging fruit, and most of that has been picked. It is now time to do the hard work of repairing our culture, eliminating the moral relativism of our society, and reversing the devaluation of life in all its stages.
Secondly, I read a column this past week that made me think about Pat’s point about the short time allowed for grief. Grief counselors regularly tell the survivors “Don’t make any big decisions for at least a year”. I presume that is because in the midst of terrible grief, one is not thinking clearly, and will make bad decision based more on emotion than logic. I don’t see why this same advice couldn’t apply here. Take a breath; grieve for the children, their families, the community. Then, have an adult, calm, civil conversation about what the REAL problems are (see my first point).

Robert,
But there is a fundamental difference.  Catholics can legitimately disagree on prudential decisions like gun control but they cannot on abortion and birth control.  Apples and oranges my friend.

Respect, all too rare, sometimes withheld from one or mutually from each other, is a thing (in my experience) that is by far more often absent from those souls who embrace and defend the more Liberal way of life. That is not to say that our respect is to be punitively withheld from them. But, it is a very difficult and time consuming pursuit to debate or conduct an act of rational civil discourse with a person who will not recognize abortion as mass murder. Yet, in the same embrace of Liberal ideology will quickly come the (late) rescue of victims whose lives were taken by an individual using a gun to terminate life. As I stated it yesterday on another topic - In the aftermath of Sandy Hook, the four minute press conference given by President Obama last Friday, could have been applied nearly word for word against the daily act of and banning of abortion. Regardless of the issue, and though it is commanded, loving them, treating them with respect and dignity is an extremely difficult task when disrespect with an intention to be indignant is returned. This, when we are expected to be tolerant while witnessing the systematic dismantling of our Christian faith by the encroachment of Liberalism into the Church. In my opinion, a greater pro-active effort, in both word and deed by both the Catholic hierarchy and the laity, is needed in confronting Liberalism as the recognized thief of life that it is. It is a hard pill to swallow but a truth that is needed to be told.

Your point about discussion with folks of other viewpoints is well taken.
My spouse has been an avid target shooter and collector of single shot rifles.  We cannot see any valid reason for merchants to provide assault type rifles to anyone, unless they are active duty military.  Thirty round magazines are offensive & can readily be found in many gun magazines.  We see part of the problem stemming from greed of manufacturers and influence of media.  I certainly do not agree with most of President Obama’s philosophies, but applaud his multifaceted approach to correcting the horrific problems facing our society as he laid out in his Memorial Service speach.

Was Jesus kind when he overturned the money-changers tables in the Temple?  Did he treat them with respect?

robert waligora posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2012 9:08 AM (EDT):
“. . . being kind has gotten 50 million dead babies, heretics destroying the Church because of leaders being to nice to the destroyers of the Faith . . . being nice hasn’t made a difference in the Church or the culture in the last 40 years…all its done is make society snowball itself into hell”

It is not true that conservative Catholics have always been kind, nice or respectful when criticizing those who disagree with them. Anti-abortionists in particular have not shied away from fiery in your face language. Which was no doubt very satisfying to express, but as Robert observes, it didn’t change the culture. Nor did niceness.

I suspect that argument, respectful or otherwise, doesn’t change the culture. If America turns away from ownership of semi-automatic weapons it will be due to personal experiences, grtipping narratives, and iconic images that result in strong social pressures. We don’t need laws that make people brush their teeth or bathe regularly. When people start to regard semi-automatic weapons owners with the same pity and disgust as the person living in a filthy house with 60 cats, or the person with extreme BO who hangs out at the library, fewer people will want to own semi-automatic weapons. When people who want to avoid being ostracized quit making such weapons easily available to those who don’t care, we will have fewer mass murders.

Maybe it would be helpful to respectfully express to gun-loving friends that you decline to visit or allow your children to visit a home with an arsenal, and that you feel their choice to amass such an arsenal is a poor choice—one that threatens the community as a whole and one that implies irrational paranoia. I’m sure it would be more helpful than reiterating arguments, statistics or rude names.  Once it’s not socially acceptable to be a non-hunting gun lover it will be easier to pass laws regulating them. See the history of non-smoking regulations.

Joe,
And who would be the money changers in your example?  Those who do not agree with you?

One of the major problems in the post-Vatican church is that the clergy rarely, if ever, talk about evil, the devil, or hell in their sermons.  Jesus confronted the devil in the gospels on several occasions.  If the priest represents God (Jesus) on earth, he should preach against the devil, evil, hell, also.  The church, along with society, has gotten soft in the past 40 years.  Vatican II was supposed to modernize the church.  Yes, they modernized with the decadent society that we have today.  The church is celebrating 50 yrs. since Vatican II.  They should be mourning it.  Vatican II has produced disastrous results, which led to empty seminaries, empty convents, very low mass attendance.  We see a whole congregation go to communion, but the confession line has about 3 people in it.  The priest do not address these problems. The only thing that Vatican II produced was the holding hands of other faiths and the changing of the liturgy which resembles at protestant service.  Now the Catholic church, according to Vatican II, subsist in the Church.  We have lost our Catholic identity.

Pat, Jesus didn’t agree with the money-changers.  Jesus was not polite in that situation.

The money-changers today would be those who disagree with Catholic doctrine.  It used to be if you didn’t agree with a church doctrine, you were a heretic.  Not today.

Pat, most of the clergy today are gutless.  I attend the Latin mass where the pastor excoriates those don’t follow the teachings of the church.  That is the way is was pre-Vatican II and we have full seminaries, convents, Catholic schools, etc.  People want to be disciplined I hear Novus Ordo priests say that God gives us unconditional love.  No he doesn’t.  There are conditions for his love.  If he gave us unconditonal love there would not be a hell.

And what is the Church doctrine about which types of weapons should be allowed and which not?

There isn’t one.  So who are the money changers again?

The Holy Father >owns guns.  The Swiss Guard is the protector of the Pope.
It’s theologically reasonable that the practical catholic should be allowed to own guns. = Just like the Holy Father.
God is NOT a respecter of persons.  All lives have equal value.  We should all follow the Holy Father as he leads us to the Heart of God.

Joe, although I haven’t read ALL of the documents of Vatican II, I have read the four constitutions and would ask if you have done likewise - or perhaps read even more?  The reason for the question is that even before I read any of them, I always cringed whenever someone would say, “In the spirit of Vatican II…”  I always wondered what Vatican II actually said and now have started reading it; so far I haven’t read anything to tell me that my cringing was in vain.

    The size of magazines in guns is being projected as the answer to school shootings.  Ordinary Glocks with 15 rounds are little different from an assault rifle with 30 rounds.  You press a button on the glock, the empty clip falls out, a new one is slammed in….three seconds slower than the Assault rifle….yet CNN is talking like there is a difference.
    The answer to school shootings lies in something much more expensive….returning to maintaining mental illness institutions and confining people who are a danger prior…prior to their shooting groups or pushing people into oncoming subway trains.  The reason mental health is expensive is there is no profit in it and it requires government spending on people who can’t work…the very thing many Catholics want cutbacks on.  Take away the guns and you’re still left with psychotics who should be confined and might build a bomb as Mc Veigh did…but confining the mentally ill costs money at a time when we’re cutting back on medicare and medicaid.  Realistically…Newtown is not the final horror because gun issues are receiving the primary attention that should go to confinement of the dangerous prior to their hurting someone.

Um,........my patience has run out. I was raised Catholic, my parents sacrificed to send me to Catholic elementary school and then Catholic high school. I’ve been a practicing Catholic my whole 51 years on this Earth. Frankly; I’ve just about had it!

Through the 1980’s I cringed while listening to Catholic sermons that came very close to touting some religious form of marxism (not just the ‘group hug’ kind of lapdog lame socialism, but government-enforced leftism). In the 1990’s, I’ve almost puked while listening to very gay lifestyle -friendly Catholic sermons given by priests. I did throw up, when the pedophile priest scandals unfolded. I became infuriated, when I found out that Pope John Paul II knew for 25 years that it was happening, but did nothing, but try to hide it. I became disgusted when the Vatican howled ‘Bloody Murder!’, when the Romanians shot their despot communist leader on Christmas Day, 1989. I became further infuriated, when the Vatican remained silent, when Romanian dungeons full of prisoners were emptied after that. I wanted to spit, when Pope ‘Soft on Crime” John Paul II turned centuries of Catholic view on its head that the Death Penalty is now officially ‘wrong’, even for mass murderers. The Catholic Bishops in America LOVE ‘universal healthcare’ and pushed for it. Now, Catholic Institutions get to fund abortions, or close their doors. How do the Bishops like ‘universal healthcare’, now? IDIOTS!!! Yes, a murderer killed kids in America, but governments in Syria and North Korea are butchering many thousands at the same time. In the 20th Century alone, governments have murdered somewhere near 100 million of its citizens through death camps, GULAGS and forced starvation, yet the Catholic Church seems to ignore that painful fact and views the 2nd Amendment as some foolish nonsense to be dispensed with. Last Sunday, at the start of mass, our ‘Eurotrash’ leftwing Irish priest started mouthing off about gun control. I got up and left the church in disgust. Unless the Catholic Church starts preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, instead of the ‘talking points’ of the Democratic National Comittee, I’ll be gone for good…and so will my kids. So long. Adieu. I may need Jesus Christ but I don’t need you!!!!

Well said Joe and Steve.  The reasons you cited is why the “new evangelization” won’t work. The attraction of being Catholic is long gone.

Pat, you wrote that we should respect our opponents.  I just gave you a story about how Jesus lost his temper.  Jesus surely did not respect what was going on in his house.  I guess the money changers are those who participated in Vatican II.  They made changes for the sake of change, which made things worse in the church.  They made changes for the sake of other christian denominations and faiths.  What were false religions pre-
Vatican II are now faiths that can lead to salvation.  Not according to Jesus.  ” The only way to the father is through me.”  So, according to Jesus, Buddhists, Muslims etc, cannot be saved, unless they convert, ( a word that is not used since Vatican II) to Christianity.  We have lost our identity.

Joe,
Respectfully, what does any of that have to do with my post about the debate over gun control??

Patti, yes.  As a part of our theology class, we read the Documents of Vatican II.  I was the rebel in the class, because I am a traditional Catholic, and I objected to part of some documents, especially the one on ecumenism.  The problem with Vatican II were not the documents.  It was the results that caused much of the decadence that has occurred in the last 40 years.  The results which I have posted above.  The changes in society also was a cause for the downhill slide in the church and in society itself.  My generation, the hippie generation (the worst generation) which followed the greatest generation rebelled against their parents and society.  The church wanted to “update” (aggiornamento) to better relate to the up and coming generation.  Instead of trying to steer the same course of the church which has been very successful to that point, the changed direction and head downhill, along with society.  You can see what we have today.

Pat framed his call for respectful debate within the wide area of “prudential decisions about which good Catholics and Christians can disagree and remain good Catholics and Christians”.

Jesus turning the money laundering tables was not “losing his temper” or being unkind or impolite, it was righteous anger at the DESECRATION OF THE TEMPLE. Desecration or profaning are not matters of prudential judgement where “good Catholics and Christians can disagree and remain good Catholics and Christians”.

Better biblical examples would be found in the Acts of the Apostles where believers struggled to figure out HOW to live the Gospel they all held: ritual cleansing, Sabbath, Gentile converts, unclean foods, etc.

Obviously we need to address gun control.  Why would a suburban housewife need an assault rifle and a cache of weapons? This is absurd. The Swiss require their citizens to bear arms.  This is working for them because rigorous education comes with this responsibility.  Obviously the criminally minded aren’t the only ones who have guns, and they know others can protect themselves.  Guns should be treated as the dangerous and terrible objects that they are.
.
@Joe, on both sides of my parents’ family we were Catholic, but all four of my grandparents couldn’t bear to be in church because they felt too sinful to be there.  Similar story on both sides of my husband’s family.  Both came from society families that forced the letter of the law rather than the Truth about the law on their offspring. Everything was about having the *appearance* of respectability, and being the best family. They all fell away in the early sixties.  They didn’t give a flip about Vatican II, because they had had enough of the hypocrisy of the society they had been raised in.  My husband’s mother has a deep *loathing* for the Catholic church, because she was raped by her brother-in-law, and her “pious” mother covered it up out of family shame, deciding to *blame* her daughter instead. On my side of the family one of my grandmothers had an abortion in the depression.  She wasn’t reconciled with the Church until her death bed.  She mourned that son for a lifetime and simply could not fathom a God who would forgive her.  Her husband worked and drank himself into an early grave, also despairing of returning to mass. My grandmother’s father had abandoned her mother, and her husband’s father had done the same…pre Vatican II.
.
My father at some point became a “Traditional Catholic”.  I read the books he gave me, I listened to him rail with his friends for years, I also commiserated with him about all of the abuses that were perpetrated in the “spirit of Vatican II”.
.
Spirit of.
.
Picture a groups of guys who were/are angry all of the time.  There was finger pointing, disgust and rage. It became their holy-rolling M.O.  It isn’t good.  It is clearly a temptation, and an over correction from the lack of goodness and the instability that they had all shared in their own home lives, ALL of which was experienced in the pre-Vatican II church.  Scapegoating is so easy to do.  Obsession with other peoples’ sins keeps us from being honest about our own deformed souls.
.
Sin is the problem Joe.  Would the churches be full, if the priest still had his back to the congregation, spoke in Latin, and railed about Hell yawning beneath our feet?
.
Joe, I think you need to read the writings of St. Faustina.  Read “Divine Mercy In My Soul”.  I think you will begin to realize the incredible need to feel loved that people are starved for.  They will return like the prodigal, when they believe their father’s arms are open and outstretched.  They will repent when they allow the Spirit to show them what gifts their sins have deprived them of.  They will rest in His all loving heart when they allow Him to assure them that His love can draw good from even evil, if they will only trust Him.

Isn’t it interesting that these policy debates are beginning at a federal level? It seems to me that, at least historically, schools and guns were primarily the domain of the States. hmm…

Joe,

You actually bring up good examples of prudential matters worthy of respectful debate. Taking you at your word that you are a traditional Catholic, then we share our submission to the Magisterial authority of the Catholic Church most especially when She gathers in Council to collectively teach, govern, and sanctify.

What she teaches on matters of faith and morals is protected in Truth by her Bridegroom Christ. Prudential error, sin, and failure often follow when these truths are implemented - particularly after a Council - but we trust in what Christ teaches in and through these Councils, even when we can’t seem to make sense of it.

It is not an option for faithful, traditional Catholics to dissent from a Church teaching on faith and morals - even when we think it contradicts a prior teaching. It never does. We have to have the humility to accept then struggle to understand how they reconcile.

However, we can respectfully disagree on the many ways of realizing a teaching on faith and morals in the Christian life. I read Pat asking us to “assume the best in others until proven otherwise” when debating them on these ways.

The die is cast. Janet Napolitano called every returning veteran and pro-life person “Right-wing extremists”. To categorize all law-abiding honest people who have a 2nd Amendment right to carry armament, as “would be terrorists”, is bearing false witness, slander, calumny, and perjury in a court of law. Obama and his administration must prove the false charges against innocent citizens before the conversation, or argument about armament can go forward. WHO is the government to dictate that man is a criminal before any crime has been committed or make of all grieving citizens accomplices in what has transpired in the murder of 26 innocent persons in Conn. Innocent citizens cannot be penalized, have their guns removed, their integrity impugned, unless it can be proved that they are criminally intent. JUSTICE.

Mom,
See that kind of rhetoric isn’t helpful.  First of all, she didn’t have an “assault weapon” Connecticut still has an “assault weapons” ban identical to the now expired federal ban and this weapon did not qualify under either.  So, by definition, this was not an ‘assault weapon’.  Further to suggests that 1 rifle, 1 shotgun, and 2 pistols constitute a ‘cache of weapons’ is disrespectful of the truth and those who disagree.

Respect starts with truth.

“Was Jesus kind when he overturned the money-changers tables in the Temple?  Did he treat them with respect?”
The money changers had a captive audience. The faithful HAD to have sacrifice to offer in the temple. The money changers ought to have seen to the peoples’ plight without extortion. The Virtue of Charity.

It all boils down to this—- people and to a large extent, the modern Catholic Church, as well as many other churches today, do not want to admit to themselves that evil actually exists and that it has its own designs upon this Earth. Now, we have people and to a large extent, the Catholic Church, who want to blame murder upon the instrument used, instead of the evil mind and evil soul who premeditated and meticulously planned and carried out the murder of targeted 1st graders. The evil man who did it, killed himself and now the rest of us who haven’t hurt anbody are, apparently, to be turned into overnight criminals simply because we own a gun…that we haven’t used in any crime. If the murderer hadn’t killed himself, the Catholic Church would be fighting against the imposition of the Death Penalty, but seemingly wouldn’t care less if innocent people get locked up for years for just owning a weapon. If any ‘Catholic’, including Joe Biden, joins in that chorus calling for innocent people to be turned into scapegoats for the evil deeds of another, how am I to ‘respect’ them? The God of Abraham is a God of justice. Follow God, or ‘get behind me, satan.’

Th more subtle issue is that redefinition of the human being as having no right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, no right to self-defense, no right to be trusted, no right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Over-taxed and under appreciated. This is what comes from not acknowledging the Person of God in the public square with FREEDOM and love of neighbor.

Pat you said “The person who wants to limit the availability of certain guns because they honestly believe this will save lives is trying to do the right thing.”

People who do this are intellectually dishonest. We as a nation have already done this. We had an “assault weapons” ban in place for 10 years. Every measurement showed that it had no demonstrable effect on crime whatsoever. We have the lowest amount of mass shootings in the passed 120 years. Spree killings like this were highest in the 1920s. The 80s and 90s had more. Numbers don’t lie, but the histrionics of our media makes it sound worse. Notice how these spree shootings always happen at “gun free” zones?  We are a morally bankrupt culture, that is the problem, not the tool used.

The child in school is a captive audience and must be protected in the school.

Pat, she had a mentally unstable son.  I have read some news reports that she had paranoia about some kind of societal meltdown.  Whatever the bottom line is, she was sitting on a powder keg situation with a cache of guns that weren’t properly attended to.  I really don’t understand how pointing the awful-ness of this is hurtful.  My heart goes out to her, her son and every. single. person. who is left in agony on this earth.

Steve, Never leave the church. Challenge the priest in letters in newspapers, but never leave the church.

We don’t need assault weapons to protect.

@ michael coco

“We don’t need assault weapons to protect.”

Really? Wait until the US government becomes normal like most other governments in the world—- self-serving, tyranical, corupt, evil and (inevitably) murderous.

@Mom

“...
Whatever the bottom line is, she was sitting on a powder keg situation with a cache of guns that weren’t properly attended to.  I really don’t understand how pointing the awful-ness of this is hurtful.  My heart goes out to her, her son and every. single. person. who is left in agony on this earth…”

My heart does NOT go out to the evil SOB who gunned down 1st graders one-by-one. As for the mother, I don’t know (she trained the sociopath, after all), but sympathy for the son—- forget it. Thank you for demonstrating my point, however. Your heart goes out to a brutal murderer, but..does it really go out to any innocent person who may wind up in jail for merely owning a gun? For far too many, their hearts wouldn’t. Remember; Jesus Christ’s heart did NOT go out for the unrepentant criminal on His left, when He was crucified. The repentant criminal—yes, but the unrepentant criminal—nah.

Steve, I don’t think either you or Pat read the first part of what I posted.  I believe in the right to own guns, but believe an incredibly sacred duty comes with this.

2nd comment,
The Pope >owns guns.  The Pope’s protectors, the Swiss Guard, carry The Pope’s guns. 
Authentic Catholic teaching tells us that ‘God is NOT a respecter of persons.’  We should ALL follow The Holy Father as we journey to the Heart of God.
Jesus Christ desires for his followers to be gun-owners, just like The Pope.  Too many people have become schismatic & heretics.  Too many people are separating themselves from the Authentic teachings of the Catholic Church. = It’s time to >follow The Pope as we journey to Heaven.

@Steve, your lack of empathy for a woman shot in her sleep is disturbing.  she bore the brunt of her child’s insanity.  Have you ever heard of the “insanity defense?”  There but for the grace of God go you.  That is, if you actually *do* have a full deck.  The only SOB in the group appears to be the father who promised for better or worse, but abandoned his family for a sweeter deal.

Pat, I own more than 10 weapons of all sorts. I keep them locked in a 1200 lb safe, behind a false wall, protected by an exotic, expensive alarm system. My children and my wife do not have access. There is no way I would allow access to (and training associated with) my weapons by any mentally-deranged son, the way that woman did.

“Steve, your lack of empathy for a woman shot in her sleep is disturbing.  she bore the brunt of her child’s insanity.  Have you ever heard of the “insanity defense?”  There but for the grace of God go you.  That is, if you actually *do* have a full deck.  The only SOB in the group appears to be the father who promised for better or worse, but abandoned his family for a sweeter deal.”

So,.......now you’re blaming the father who wanted to have psycho son committed, but the mother objected, until it was too late? “Full deck”? Well, let’s just say that I was threatened by a coworker who MADE HIMSELF insanely jealous of me. The creep threatened to shoot us all. I don’t tolerate the criminally insane and I don’t sympathize with those who do. Do not deceive yourself; the creep who murdered those kids is fully responsible for his actions. The insanity defense it what is truly crazy.

I rest my case.

Pat,
Wow!!  What great variety of comments.  Steve with 10 weapons, My point exactly. Grew up with hunting rifles and shotguns, spent time in the military with ever more powerful weapons from 9mm to 50 cal, to current ownership of hunting rifles.  No-one had access but my dad when I was growing up, Except when we were deployed the armorer kept weapons and currently no-one has access but me. While I have no reason to believe my family is “mentally unstable”, they still do not have access to the cache. 

To the “Catholicism in decline” or “No God in Schools” crowd, I say this: Many of those kids did attend mass or church/ synogog (there were some Jewish I believe), so God was very much in their lives.  Contrary to popular belief, God does not abandon our children when they get off the bus.  To suggest so is completely ludicrous.  I prayed in school during the 80’s not one person stopped me. I like to think my son prays in school during his free time and no-one can stop him.  The school cannot mandate prayer but too they cannot stop someone from praying.  My mother said other kids might tease them to wit I responded: If the young person is not secure enough in their faith to endure the perceived peer pressure, then we have bigger problems than whether or not he can pray in school; if he succumbs to peer pressure over praying, what happens when drugs or alcohol are introduced??

Pro-gun nuts, (just because I am a gun owner does not make me a gun nut) obviously have no idea how to read law.  The 2nd Amendment first discusses a “WELL REGULATED MILITIA, BEING NECESSARY TO THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE,”.  Meaning, simply, the National Guard. There was no standing army in 1789 when the Constitution was ratified.  While anticipated that most souls owned weapons since they were HUNTERS and FARMERS, the idea was for these men to also be part of a well regulated militia meaning people who would be called up to protect the country when necessary (see the Draft). These clauses are lost on the pro-gun nuts.  All they see is the third clause “the right of the people to keep and bear arms” and hang their hat on that. Meaning- with this right, there comes great responsibility including but not limited to serving in this country’s defense. While I am certain much of the NRA membership answered the call, several have not. No, being part of one of those wacko militia’s, Michigan Militia comes to mind, is not defending this country. So, pro-gun nuts, where does the well regulated militia part come in since it is the most important piece of the second amendment?

Finally, Jesus for guns??  Really.  In year 0, the Chinese had just invented gun powder. Jesus had no idea what a gun was.  Romans still used catapaults, bows, swords and spears. Since he frequently preached from Isaiah, the beating swords into plowshares most certainly was a mainstay of his teachings.  No Jesus was not pro-gun

I rest MY case:

Adam Lanza—satan worshiper

..but “your heart goes out to him.”

http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981824528

I like your article very much, and I think it’s exactly right to encourage one another to each see the good intentions in the other’s views.  That said, I think the worst problem of the ongoing gun debate in light of the school tragedy is that the conversation is about guns at all.  We have an inner city crisis, and African Americans are 72 times more likely to be murdered by a gun than are whites.  Meanwhile, white Americans are less likely to be killed by a gun than the citizens of any European country, even those with rigorous gun control, even though whites report gun ownership rates double that of African Americans.  So we have a huge cultural crisis in our inner cities, but we don’t talk about that when we talk about the murder rate.  Instead, we talk about the tools that the culture of death uses on its victims.  We also don’t talk about how we emptied the mental hospitals a few decades back, creating the homeless mentally ill while unleashing too a lot of dangerously psychotic people into our midst from whom we have no defense until they act out.  We did this in the name of compassion.  These are conversations we might be having, if we were serious about reducing violence, but instead we get side-tracked by a tired debate about guns.  It is a great opportunity for the bishops and the church to insist on a real conversation about real problems, but I despair of the current bishops taking the lead rather than just following the herd.

Read the original “Constitution”. If you take Americans Rights then we are no longer a Comstitutional Republic. What happened to the heretics in our own church
who have voted constantly for the mass murder of Gods holy inocenent (Babies)? My Bible and the churches teaching says you go straight to hell.
I just went to- www.ssristories.com/index.php, and every shooting has been done with persons on medications. We need to be looking at the Medical field and those who produce antidepresents. 97 pages of murdered victims and the medicated persons weho have murdered them.

I am not going to comment directly on what happened in Newtown; too much is still unknown.  And too much I have read in the media has later proved wrong that I don’t trust any of it right now.  Maybe in a few weeks, but not now. 

Here is what I will comment on.  We are sinful, we always have been sinful since Adam and Eve succumbed to temptation and we always will be sinful until the resurrection.  Individuals can only hope to overcome that sinfulness through the grace of Jesus delivered by both ordinary mean (prayer, the sacraments, especially baptism, confession and the eucharist) and through extraordinary means (other graces in our life).

Both the Church and society as a whole are filled with sin, always have been always will be.  (We were right to be disappointed in the pedophile crisis in the Church, but if were surprised we clearly don’t know our Church history or human nature.)  America as a nation has been, since the Civil War anyway, probably more peaceful and stable than the average for the world.

Will banning some types of guns stop school massacres?  Maybe, but it will not make us safe.  Anyone who believes that any law will make us safe has essentially embraced a pagan belief in the power of the state.  All we can ultimately do is pray, fast and do penance and hope that God will have mercy on us both in this life and the next.

The fact of this whole conversation is that the shooter was mentally ill. We do next to nothing for the mentally ill. There is such a thing as drug-related schizophrenia and by-polar. I am not saying the shooter was on drugs, but that has much to do with mental health. Somehow the psychiatric world has to keep track of these psychotic people who are on medicine because most of the time they are adults and they stop taking the medicine because of the side effects. They have to be monitored. I do know a women who is bi-polar and she has to go to a clinic for her medication and is watched as she takes it. If she does not appear at the clinic, a policeman is sent to her house to see why she was not there. It can be done. I know another woman I worked with whose son was schizophrenic [drug related] and she told me she locked her bedroom door most nights when he was agitated. I used to work at a mental institution, which was closed, and for good reason….but we still have to do more. The old saying is “it is not the gun that kills, it is the person behind the gun”.  Remember cars kill, knives kill, hands kill with choking, etc.  Gun control and mental healthcare improved.

In its simplest form, proposing that there should exist a “Catholic” stand on “gun control” is feel good politics at its worst and totally unproductive.  It implies that there is something immoral about a “thing”, in this case, a firearm.  That is enough to end any possibility of a productive discussion on the subject.  I challenge anyone reading this to simply look up the volumes of gun laws which are currently on the books.  They are vast indeed.  Liberal judges DO NOT enforce the laws.  This is not a secret. Also, there is no “gun show” loophole.  Upon every purchase, a federal check is conducted by any and all reputable gun dealers.  In fact, you will find that gun dealers and, in fact, the vast majority of gun owners are the most staunch supporters of existing gun laws.  One more:  Gun owners DO NOT:DO NOT OWN FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPONS.  They have been banned for decades.  Next, look up, although the useless lame stream media will NEVER report them, the number of incidents, annually, when a firearm is used to protect AND SAVE innocent lives.  The numbers are mind boggling.  In fact, they are the U.S. govts. figures.  Home invasions are on the rise.  Random acts of violence are increasing as the economy worsens.  Budgetary cutbacks within police depts are increasing.  If one doesn’t want to own a firearm…..DON’T.  BUT, don’t expect someone else to be your protector.  Now THAT, to me, is immoral.  Now….get to MASS.

Steve, Don’t you think the heart of Jesus went out to the sinner?  Hating sinners is un-God-like.  God is a respecter of human choice, but he still loves each and every individual, even as they turn to evil. I’ve learned the most about God from being a parent.  Even when my children hurt me deeply, I don’t cease to love them.  Adam Lanza’s mother bothered to go the extra mile with her sick son.  She homeschooled him, she attended mass with him.  She volunteered. She simply *couldn’t* be his father, his brothers and his sisters, or his intact family for him.  Maybe he wouldn’t have turned into a hateful goth if everyone else in his life hadn’t turned their backs on him, and he’d just been another kid with Asbergers, surrounded by a bunch of relatively normal people who loved him, accepted him, and didn’t make a big deal out of his disability.  Large, happy families have a way of mainstreaming the major quirks out of people because its harder for narcissism to thrive, when everyone needs to pull their weight and contribute.  Anyhow, that’s my experience.  And believe me, I have a somewhat quirky family.  Peace. (I always worry about pissing people off who have large vaults of weapons, and like to rage at everyone and everything including THE great champion of peace, JPII).

I live in an area where the sheriff’s response time is 30 minutes. That is 30 minutes when I am alone should I be confronted by an intruder.  Idyllic country settings can be deceptive to someone from the suburbs or city out on a Sunday drive.  We have our share of meth labs and a higher than average number of registered sex offenders because this setting affords a degree of anonymity.  Our deputies are forthright in stating that more often than not they respond to clean up and investigate rather than intervene.  Guns, properly safeguarded and in the hands of those trained in the handling of them are a part of everyday life and for good reason. This debate is one that should be tabled until this wave of national mass hysteria subsides. I find it appalling that so many of our politicians and Hollywood’s elite are taking advantage of this tragedy to draw the spotlight to themselves!  Can’t they even let these people be laid to rest before they start the old tired “Look at me ” charade?  Can they not EVER relinquish the spotlight?

I am always surprised to see the number of commenters that clearly did not read the entire post.  Some actually think that I was saying there is a Catholic position on gun control. Sigh.

To me those calling for more gun control have no common sense, common sense tells you that if thar principal would have had a weapon when she went towards the killer she and most of those kids would likley still be alive, it seem’s evil may be increasing and the good people have a responsiblity to have the ability to protect the inocent.

Gun Control is no more about providing safety & protection to our kids than Obamacare is about providing good doctors and healthcare to our seniors. They are both about socialist governments’ command and control of people. All true statist forms of government require the disarming of it’s citizens before it can fully determine who lives and who dies with impunity. It’s the modern version of equality aka enslavement under the guise of “social justice”. The right to bear arms was/is about the right of citizens to protect themselves from their own government. Founding fathers were smart guys. The problem is not what’s in your hand. It’s what’s in your heart. Our Founders said the foundation and survival of this great experiment in self government was based on an informed electorate with moral values based on religious principals. It’s is clear our present culture of death has long ago abandoned those standards. Compounding it is the complicity of the Bishops and leadership of Catholic Church since Vatican 2. The fact is that the CC has either lead or followed the breakdown/demise of secular society (depending on one’s point of view) The transformation from “Church Militant” to “Church Nice” is indicative of the this self inflicted disaster. We are reaping the consequences thereof. All we have to do to finish this lunacy is “voluntarily” disarm ourselves by gutting the second amendment. If anyone actually believes a word coming out of Washington DC or trusts this administration for a millisecond then one would qualify as being “invincibly ignorant”.  To the contrary. Prudence dictates its’ better to get your guns now in order to defend yourself and your family. It’s a prudential decision as well as common sense given the state of this country and it’s entitlement minded society. Evidently a whole lot of folks agree with this as evidenced by the gun sales explosion since the Sandy Hook tragedy. Second amendment was meant to protect citizens against the government. Use it or loose it is not an exaggeration with the radicals running our Government.

don’t feel bad pat…you’re article is fine….I just got the feeling that a lot of us Catholics are completely fed up with obamas re-election, the state of the disarray in the Church, the morals of the country going straight to Sodom and Gomorrah, and that combination is causing your article to let us vent….MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL

@Starzec

You wrote: “The 2nd Amendment first discusses a “WELL REGULATED MILITIA, BEING NECESSARY TO THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE,”. Meaning, simply, the National Guard. There was no standing army in 1789 when the Constitution was ratified.  While anticipated that most souls owned weapons since they were HUNTERS and FARMERS, the idea was for these men to also be part of a well regulated militia meaning people who would be called up to protect the country when necessary (see the Draft). These clauses are lost on the pro-gun nuts.”

This is factually incorrect. Let’s start with the last part. Gramatically, the 2nd Amendment’s “well-regulated militia” portion of the amendment is an independent phrase, NOT a clause. An alternate example would be:

“The taxi being late to the airport, the travellers missed their flight.”

It really doesn’t matter if the taxi was really late, or if some other reason is the cause, the fact remains that “the travellers missed their flight”. The independant phrase, “The taxi being late to the airport” is simply added as extra information. The main part of the sentence, “the travellers missed their flight” stands on its own, with or without the preceding independant phrase. Likewise; the 2nd Amendment’s independant phrase, “A well-regulated militia…” is simply added as extra information and the main part (“the right of the people to keep and bear arms..”) stands on its own, with or without the preceding independant phrase.

Next; the National Guard is a 19th Century invention and it did not exist when the Bill of Rights were ratified. Additionally; the National Guard can no longer act as a “militia”, because of the “Miltia Act” of 1903. That act places the National Guard under Federal control and takes it away from the states. The reason the act was passed in 1903 is that President Theodore Roosvelt wanted to send state Natioal Guard units to fight Filipino guerillas right after the Spanish-American War, but they told him to “Go pound sand, we’re not going!” After the guerillas were put down after considerable effort; he pushed the Militia Act of 1903 so that he could send National Guard units overseas in future conflicts. The same act, coincidentally. defines the “Unorganized Milia” as all adult males age 18-45.

You see; “gun nuts” are far more accurate regarding the 2nd Amendment than squishy moderate “hunter/sportsman” types. For the record, unlike what is always implied by gun grabbers: neither word (“hunter”, or “sportsman”) is found anywhere in the Constitution.

@Pat You wrote: “I am always surprised to see the number of commenters that clearly did not read the entire post.  Some actually think that I was saying there is a Catholic position on gun control. Sigh.” Sadly; you are mistaken. Please see this article:
Gun control: Church firmly, quietly opposes firearms for civilians
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100159.htm

@Mom:  you wrote: “Peace. (I always worry about pissing people off who have large vaults of weapons, and like to rage at everyone and everything including THE great champion of peace, JPII).” As yes, end with an insult after painting yourself as pious. I do believe that this is what Pat was asking everyone to avoid, when he wrote his article. Oh, and I do believe that Pope JPII drove more people away from Catholic Church, than satan could ever dream of doing. It’s hard to imagine a little altar boy (bent over with a priest’s hand over his little mouth, while being forcefully penetrated in his little behind) caring one bit about Pope JPII galavanting around the globe in the name of “peace”. OMG!! Who am I to judge Pope JPII? Well, let’s just say that when I found out that a man at my wife’s workplace was seen molesting a 13 year old, I was on the phone to the authorities in less than 1 minute. After 25 years, Pope JPII had yet to reach for the phone. Just sayin’..

Dec. 19th:yes, good people can disagree but can you tell me please why anyone needs a military style rapid firing assault weapon? They aren’t used for hunting animals, so why have them. Keep hand guns and hunting rifles but these others? Why? I live near Newtown and parents and families are asking…would those teachers who tried to take down the shooter have succeeded if he had had only a hand gun? With his assault rapid fire weapon, he mowed down small children and teachers almost before they could move.  So many now want more guns. Walmart has just sold out their military style rapid fire assault weapons before they can be sold out…we, as Catholics, should follow the example of Jesus, or St. Francis of Assisi…remember when the Sultan told Francis that if he could find more people like him, only 10 more, violence would end?  Again, I ask with all my heart: who needs rapid fire military style assault weapons?  What type of person needs a weapon like that?  How many people already have them?  Recently an 11 year old boy brought a gun to school saying he needed it to protect himself…will we arm our children next?  We know the ‘gun’ does not kill, the shooter does but he would not be able to kill without the gun.  Come here to Newtown and the surrounding towns and see how many want the assault weapons to continue to be sold - please just tell me who needs these weapons and why?  What type of person wants to keep such a destructive weapon in the home????

@florin: You are absolutely right. My husband got his first hunting shotgun at age 12. He hunted with his Dad and their beagle and his Dad TAUGHT HIm how to hunt. NYS had strict hunting laws….better than most States down south. My husband was in WWII. Some soldiers brought home guns as souveniers,[sp] not my husband, he brought home binocculars.  He had a respect for guns as his Dad taught him. Today people buy guns and they no nothing about how to really use them. He quit hunting when people in the woods would shoot any anything that moved. We need stricter hunting laws and much stricter gun laws and no one should be given an assault weapon…that is for the Army.

Posted by Steve on Thursday, Dec 20, 2012 10:30 AM: @Pat You wrote: “I am always surprised… Some actually think that I was saying there is a Catholic position on gun control. Sigh.” Sadly; you are mistaken. Please see this article:

Gun control: Church firmly, quietly opposes firearms for civilians
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/pat-archbold/the-catholic-position-on-

“That’s followed by a footnote that states: “HOWEVER, WE BELIEVE THAT IN THE LONG RUN AND WITH FEW EXCEPTIONS—I.E. POLICE OFFICERS, MILITARY USE—handguns should be eliminated from our society.””

GUNS DO NOT KILL.  GODLESS PEOPLE KILL DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY AS IN THIS CASE OF THIS MOTHER WHO WENT TWICE A WEEK TO A SHOOTING RANGE WITH HER MENTALLY UNSTABLE SON AND 2 OR 3 TIMES A WEEK TO A BAR…

‘The Sandy Hook gunman worshiped the devil and had an online page dedicated to Satan, a former classmate revealed,”  Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2250608/Adam-Lanzas-classmate-reveals-Sandy-Hook-gunman-online-devil-worshiping-page.html#ixzz2FbgChUM5

WE HUMAN BEINGS HAVE SHORT MEMORY.  HOW SOON WE FORGET!

ON CNN NEWS
A few nights ago on CNN a letter from a little child who said only police officers and the army should have guns…”

THE ARMY PSYCHIATRIST charged in the deadly Fort Hood shooting rampage is to appear in military court for his first pretrial hearing in more than three months.
The new judge overseeing Maj. Nidal Hasan’s case is to discuss the trial schedule during Tuesday’s hearing. Hasan faces the death penalty if convicted in the 2009 rampage that killed 13 and wounded more than two dozen others on the Texas Army post.

CNN)—A federal judge Wednesday sentenced FIVE FORMER NEW ORLEANS POLICE OFFICERS to prison terms ranging from six to 65 years for the shootings of unarmed civilians in the chaotic aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, prosecutors said.
The shootings occurred on the Danziger Bridge on September 4, 2005, six days after much of New Orleans went underwater when the powerful hurricane slammed into the Gulf Coast. The ex-officers were convicted in August on a combined 25 counts of civil rights violations.

WED JUL. 14, 2010 - Last week, Kevin Drum wrote about Johannes Mehserle, the white former transit cop who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter for shooting and killing an unarmed black man, Oscar Grant, who was lying face down and handcuffed.

All citizens should be able to protect themselves and their families from criminals, be they ordinary criminal citizens, criminal policemen or criminal army personnel.

People should be able to responsibly have guns and store them in a very responnsible manner.

# florin: you wrote: “...
Again, I ask with all my heart: who needs rapid fire military style assault weapons?  What type of person needs a weapon like that?...”

How about Syrian civilians? How about North Korean civilians? How about Egyptian civilians? How about Russian cicvilians? How about…American civilians? You see; brutal, murderous governments are the norm. Our American Constitutional republic is a very fragile, delicate exception that came about, ONLY BECAUSE subjects of a brutal tyrant IGNORED that tyrant’s gun control laws and fought a brutal war to get rid of the tyrant. This isn’t some quirky thing from the History Channel. It is a brutal fact of life. Allow the American Government a complete monopoly on military power and death camps, secret prisons, speech police and a brutal despot are just a generation away. Some would say that he’s here already. Some would say that our military is too powerful and that 100 million people with guns won’t matter. If that is the case, then we are doomed to end up living under tyrany. The 2nd Amendment is NOT about your father’s hunting activities!!!

Emma posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2012 11:48 PM (EDT):
“This debate is one that should be tabled until this wave of national mass hysteria subsides.”

Hmm. Was there enough time to tastefully squeeze in that debate between the slaughter in the Aurora, Colorado movie theater (July 20) and the shootings in Newton Connecticut? The trouble is, we never know how much time we have until another deranged person will steal a gun and create mayhem, thus creating an environment too hysterical for debate.

“coworker” wrote: “...The trouble is, we never know how much time we have until another deranged person will steal a gun and create mayhem, thus creating an environment too hysterical for debate.” Hmmm…maybe if the current deranged person hadn’t gotten so much media ‘air time’ after his death, the next deranged person would have lost interest in creating mayhem in order to get attention. Just sayin’....

@coworker ...we should not rush legislation through while the populace is under the influence of a media blitz. Those are the tactics of totalitarian regimes. Incite fear in the populace, offer yourself up as “Lord and Savior ” then take away peoples ’ rights (for their own good) .And just what laws do you suggest we pass that will convert the criminally insane into sane law abiding citizens?  Isn’t this how we got this mess called Obamacare?  By rushing through legislation without adequate review? We need to pause and wait for cooler heads to prevail and do some fact checking on the reports coming out of this. Right now there are already many discredited reports by people rushing to get their story out there.  We don’t know the facts.

Steve, I don’t doubt for a moment that JPII knew that a full scale assault by Satan was being waged in the world and in the church.  But I don’t believe he went his merry way knowing that Fr. Butt pirate was doing his thing over there in Oregon, and didn’t care.  That’s just B.S. and you know it.  Hindsight is 20/20.  Cowards scream “Shoulda, coulda, woulda!” about OTHER people, rather than looking at their own lives, and asking themselves how they *personally* are a force for peace and goodness in this world.  John Paul II was a living icon of love, self denial and suffering in a world gone mad.  How dare you, Steve, the hothead even *attempt to besmirch his legacy? You and all your guns probably don’t even amount to a grain of peace on John Paul’s seashore.
—Anger management dude.

Almost all mass gun murders happen in gun free zones.
.
The school killer walked around the school for 10-15 minutes before he killed himself, police did not get to his dead body for another 5-10 minutes after that.  With all that time, unopposed he could have used any weapon.
.
If a few adults at that school had been armed the children could have been saved and the killer might not have even attempted to go there.
.
The UK banned guns and it had no impact on their murder rate.  In fact well over 90% of the murders there are committed with knives, fists, clubs, etc.
.
The UK has 4x the home invasion rate of the USA.
According to the Dept of Justice 38% of assaults and 60% of rapes occur during home break-ins.
.
Gun control will fix nothing and will leave the elderly, women and children helpless.

Anna Lisa wrote: “...How dare you, Steve, the hothead even *attempt to besmirch his legacy? You and all your guns probably don’t even amount to a grain of peace on John Paul’s seashore.” Think so? Let’s see; I foiled an armed robbery. How’s that for starters? Not good enough? OK, I decided to buy a saphire necklace for a cowoker’s daughter who had been brutally gang raped and almost murdered (the attackers were interupted). When I decided to do that all hell broke loose. After a bizarre premonition, the next day, I hydroplaned and flipped my car on the Interstate at 65 mph and had to smash my way out of the wreck. Later that same day, I was in the jewelry store buying the necklace. The next morning, my wife began screaming at me and demanded that I return it to the store. The funny thing is: she never knew anything about it. To this day, she doesn’t know anything about the necklace, but she was screaming at me to return it. Instead, I wrote “Smile, God loves you” in a blank card and wrapped it up with the necklace. The next morning on the way to work, I almost wrecked a loaner car on the Interstate (black ice), but made it anyway, where I gave the package to her father (my coworker). It was shocking to see the difference it made with her. That is a small slice of God’s peace for a rape victim. Not good enough? Well, I imediately reported a pedophile. Can Pope JPII say that? Call me a ‘hothead’, but I don’t tolerate child molesters. Too many calm people with a ‘legacy’ in the Church have and that pleases satan. I’m betting that a ‘hothead’ pleases God more than a calm person. Just sayin’...

@Rob
“The UK banned guns and it had no impact on their murder rate”

Misleading to the point of being factually incorrect
http://www.channel4.com/news/uk-murder-rate-falls-to-its-lowest-for-almost-30-years

The rate of UK gun ownership was already very low before the Dunblane school massacre in Scotland. The extra gun controls were instituted to stop deranged individuals rather than the ‘ordinary’ murders. The rest of the world looks on astonished that “America never learns”.

Since you are wrong on one of your factual claims would you care to back up your claim that “The UK has 4x the home invasion rate of the USA”

Even if you are correct, is the mortality and serious injury rate in the UK higher?

The US has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world.
89 guns per 100 people, the next highest is Serbia with 58/100. Switzerland has 46/100, Canada 31/100, England 6/100, Japan 0.6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

The Second Amendment is not part of the Third Testament of the Bible! All other democracies have maintained democracy without an armed populace to restrain their government.

Although the US War of Independance was partly won by a well-armed populace, the Civil War to end slavery was largely conventional. Women got the vote without armed militias, Civil Rights happened without an armed black militia (white militias hampered this). King George is not about to invade.

The pragmatic justification for selected individuals owning guns are hunting for food and pest control (in rural areas) and individual protection.

The only pragmatic justification for widespread gun ownership of the populace is if there is no effective civil authority to ensure justice and peace. This could only be argued in certain areas of the US, not nationally.

The Second Amendment is a pecularity of the US Constitution. It is not part of Catholic Social Teaching. To support the Second Amendment “on principle” is not a prudential judgement.

The US Bishops have on many ocassions argued for tighter gun control. The default position of faithful Catholics will be to support their bishops.

Dissent from them if your conscience drives you to it. But admit that you dissent. But ask yourself if your dissent really is a prudentail judgement or because you are idolizing the Second Amendment?

Gun control or no gun control—Kinda gives you the chills either way, doesn’t it Pat?

@Leo
.
You point “uk-murder-rate-falls-to-its-lowest-for-almost-30-years”.
.
1) Read the article.
2) Look at the trend numbers, they show no impact from gun control on the curve.
3) During the same period of time the murder rate in the US has fallen by an even more dramatic rate. 
.
I support citizens having guns to defend themselves from criminals, gangs and a soviet style govt.  Banning guns will not solve the problem, just as every other action the govt takes has not solved the problem.
.
Every time the govt talks about banning guns or imposing new laws more people buy guns.  Not just because they fear that one day they will not be able to defend themselves, but also because a govt that threatens to take away guns is viewed as a bigger threat.

Mom wrote: “The Second Amendment is a pecularity of the US Constitution (WRONG! It is the reason the Constitution exists, at all). It is not part of Catholic Social Teaching (So?). “To support the Second Amendment “on principle” is not a prudential judgement. The US Bishops have on many ocassions argued for tighter gun control. The default position of faithful Catholics will be to support their bishops.” (Then, goodbye Catholic Church. By the way; which bishops are we talking about here? Are they the ones who covered for pedophile priests? Just curious). (This one is s hoot!) Mom wrote: “All other democracies have maintained democracy without an armed populace to restrain their government.” (Do you mean the Weimar Republic? HA!!!)

Frankly; there are far too many ‘Super Catholics” who blindly follow Bishops, priests and Popes without looking past to see Jesus Christ. A population defenseless against, robbers, rapists, murderers and despotic governments is not what Jesus Christ desires (I don’t care what opposing ‘teaching’ the Bishops may have). “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” —Luke 22:36, NIV There are those who “interpret” this passage to mean anything but Jesus justifying self defense, but if Jesus Christ really did want us and our children to be at the mercy of murderers (He doesn’t) and if Jesus Christ really did hate it when someone defends themself (He doesn’t), then I would want nothing to do with Him. Would you?

Dec. 20th, at Mass today, as at all Masses and prayer services since Newtown, there were large candles placed before the altar along with one tiny teddy bear…a grim reminder of the massacre of the innocents at Newtown but a reminder too that hope and love live on.  During the recitation of the Lord’s prayer I thought about the Lord’s mandate to forgive if we are to be forgiven.  He did not order weapons to be gathered to avenge His death; in fact He told Peter to put away his sword…those who live by the sword will die by the sword.  If the answer to every tragedy is to go out and purchase more and more killing high powered rapid shooting weapons, then how are we to be ‘instruments of peace’ - Walmart says they have sold out all the weapons similar to the one the shooter used in Newtown. This is frightening.  We now have to fear all those who are ready to kill anyone they perceive to be threatening; what if these gun lovers carry weapons in their cars and are overtaken by road rage?  Will they get out of their cars and start shooting?  Sorry, I live close to Newtown and this is a vulnerable time for all…stockpiliing weapons is not the answer…I can’t go further right now…it’s all just too hard!

Celinedesilva,
That is not the Church’s position, that is from the USCCB document which has no authority, period.

Those who fall back on the WWJD argument seem to forget that Jesus was GOD!  From the time He entered this world in human form He controlled everything that happened to him. It was His Plan!  He thought so much of us that He perfectly executed that plan for us. But,  we should never forget that He is God and thus did and still controls the outcome.  To die for one’s faith is martyrdom.  To die at the hands of a deranged lunatic or a jacked up meth addict who busts into your house because you think your own life is not worth availing yourself of the means to protect it,  is suicide.  To not protect your children and those weaker than you, worse.  The Catechism of the Catholic Church states quite clearly that we do have sanction to take another’s life should it be in defense of our own or defense of those weaker than ourselves.  That is the bishops speaking.  I know that the day someone told my husband that in order to remain a good Catholic,  it would be required that he sit passively and watch someone kill his wife and children,  would be the last day he entered a Catholic Church!  Don’t forget,  the church also teaches that it is a man’s duty to care for his family.  It goes against the Natural Law to expect anyone to not defend their life.  Makes no sense.

Steve posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2012 3:29 PM (EDT):
“A population defenseless against, robbers, rapists, murderers and despotic governments is not what Jesus Christ desires.”

Yes, the Bible tells how Jesus led an armed uprising against the Roman occupation of Israel. The overthrow of despotic governments was one of his highest priorities. Also he praised the Good Samaritan for hunting down the robbers who beat the traveler and turning them in to the authorities. His parables consistently focused on setting up a government that guarantees individual freedoms and allows ownership of weapons to defend one’s physical security and that of one’s family. If there is anything we know about Jesus from his stories, it’s that he thought the most important thing in life is self-defense.

@coworker:  You wrote: “...Also he praised the Good Samaritan for hunting down the robbers who beat the traveler and turning them in to the authorities. His parables consistently focused on setting up a government that guarantees individual freedoms and allows ownership of weapons to defend one’s physical security and that of one’s family. If there is anything we know about Jesus from his stories, it’s that he thought the most important thing in life is self-defense.” You have forgotten that the Romans DID hunt down two robbers and sentenced them to die along with Jesus Christ. One (the unrepentant robber) begged Jesus Christ to save him and Jesus….say it, say it…admit it….did NOTHING to save him. He DID, however, offer salvation to the repentant robber on the other side, but did NOT save his mortal life. HA! ..and you thought you knew Jesus Christ. He is full of surprizes! CHECKMATE.

Emma: You are right…the trouble with some Catholics is that they don’t know their faith. What you said, “I know that the day someone told my husband that in order to remain a good Catholic,  it would be required that he sit passively and watch someone kill his wife and children, would be the last day he entered a Catholic Church!” is what I am talking about. Those same people will tell you that they are “baptized Catholic” which is untrue, one is Baptized Christian in any Christian Church. Having been married to an unbaptized person for many yrs., you would be surprised the stupidity that I have heard from people.
When this 85 yr old was young we kept our homes and autos unlocked at all times, why? because we were protected by the Gov. Today the Gov. has let all sorts of people cross our borders and with guns and drugs. We are not protected! My parents came thru Ellis Island and my Mom told me that if a person had a rash or cough, they were sent back. I found their manifest on the internet (Ellis Island.com) if anyone is interested & had immigrant parents from back then. They were here legally, not illegally. There are certain diseases on the rise in this country because our borders are open.
I can remember our first trip from Penna to CA. We were stopped at the border and had to open the car trunk. We had oranges [which was not allowed] but since we had them in an ice cooler they let us pass. Protection of our food. Today we get baby food from China that has made them sick, cribs that are not well made. WE DO NOT GET THE PROTECTION FROM OUR GOVERNMENT AS WE DID YRS. AGO. Also, don’t get me on the subject of the illegal Mexican. I was at a meeting yrs. ago in Richmond, along with the Pres.of the Hispanic Catholic Leadership and she said emphatically “we were here before, we are here now, and we are here to stay”. Her tone of voice literally scared me.  No one ever heard of an Ellis Island immigrant burning our precious Flag, but the Mexicans have done that and nothing is done because the ACLU calls it freedom of speech. Bah, Humbug.  I am proud of my Italian immigrant parents, they brought us up to be 100% Americans. Those are the immigrants who built this country.I know there are some good Hispanics, but they all should come here legally.  Want to know more, just talk to a Californian.
P.S. and don’t call me unchristian in my thinking….it is the government of Mexico & other countries who are unchristian as they do not help their own people. Common Sense says that we, the people of the U.S. cannot take care of all the peoples of the world.  “God helps those who helps themselves” fits in well here. These countries should do more to help their own people, instead of the government taking everything for themselves. Our government complains all the time abt. medicare and social security, which the Dems started and lo and behold, this little old lady got a $15.00 increase per month…they raised Medicare, which they automatically take out of SS. I think our government officials deserve a decrease in salary and all the benefits they get, they complain about my benefits, but are mum about theirs. We are getting more and more like Europe and other countries. The U.S. is going down the tubes. Oh, and by the way my WWII Paratrooper husband, who fought in 5 big battles for the freedom of you and I, died Dec. 20th,1985,at the age of 62…one of the “great generation”.  R.I.P. my love. 

I just sent in a comment and they stated that there was spam in it. That is a down-right lie.  There was no spam in my comment!  Be honest about it!

The only thing negative I said was against illegal immigrants.

The reason why this country is going down the tubes is because our government has allowed an open border. When my Italian parents came here through Ellis Island, along with the Polish and Irish People, they were examined and if they had a rash or cough, sent back. They came here legally and they are the ones who made this country prosper. Today they come over the border, [all our borders] with drugs and guns and no one is stopped. My parents brought us up to be 100% Americans, yet when the Mexican in that CA school burned our flag, the ACLU allows them to get away with it saying it is freedom of speech. We had/have respect and love for this country, how many immigrants of today have that.  They come to get what they can because their own country won’t take care of them.  The saying of their advocates in this country is “we were here before, we are here now and we are here to stay”.  I have heard this many times, even in our Catholic Church, which always supported them. The people of the U.S. just cannot take care of everyone in this world. Other country’s governments should learn to take care of themselves, rather than confiscating the monies sent to them by the U.S. How can we have gun control, when it is coming over the border…our borders need to be closed and people should come here legally.

There is no “Catholic” position on gun control.  More important is the “Biblical” position in which self defense is justified.  What man is going to stand by and watch his wife and kids attacked by some lunatic or by a Pit Bull Terrier?  People like Obama, Biden, Schumer and Diane Frankenstein have Taxpayer paid armed bodyguards for their protection.  The rest of us do not.  The USCCB position should be to support the NRA since they, too, have the “fullness” of faith in the 2nd Amendment.

@ Sue…..your reference to Mexico raises an interesting point.  Those who think that we would be safer if the citizen’s right to posses firearms was to be revoked,  need only turn their eyes towards our neighbor to the south.  Multiple mass homocides carried out by cartels who also are not supposed to be in possession of weapons while their government is either unwilling or unable to stop the slaughter.  Then,  we shouldn’t forget that the same administration that now wants to disarm us, provided the weapons to these drug lords via it’s federal agents.  This same administration has no remorse when unmanned drones kill innocents labeled collateral damage.  This same administration which has now authorized the use of said drones in American Airspace.  This same administration which passed the National Defense Act of 2012. This same administration whose president shook hands with a man (you tube celebrity named Psy)  who in 2004 publicly called for the torture and muder of American Military Personnel ( what a testament for the Commander and Chief of our military to present). This man should have been barred from entry into this country for making terrorist threats, but instead is shaking hands with the president.  If you or I had publicly made those statements, we would be locked in a federal detention facility!  Something is very out of whack in our country.  Not only in suburbia.

Not for nothing but does anyone, whether Catholic or not, actually listen to, care for or take seriously the pronouncements from USCCB…on anything? They have no theological standing, no power and worse…NO CREDIBILITY. Has anyone seen the latest report on the CCHD. They continue to fund (from the pew collections) radical culture of death groups which is documented year after year by the American Life League (Judy Brown) and it is ignored year after year. The inmates are running the prison. Sad to say this is nothing more than a “good ole boys” political club. They spend north of $200,000,000.00 (two hundred million dollars)and manage to emasculate the individual Bishops roll as shepherds. They would be much more effective if the individual Bishops worried more about the souls of their flocks rather than the trappings and politics of temporal power on K Street. Unfortunately, with few exceptions, they are masters of obfuscation and doubletalk. Takes 28 pages to define “sin” as in voting for culture of death politicians. Give all of us Catholics a break. Any wonder the Church is in such a sorry state. Catholics elected Obama again. Why not? The President of the USCCB, Cardinal Dolan, gave his implicit approval. Don’t believe it? Really? Ever hear of the Al Smith Foundation Dinner? Guess that smiling picture of Cardinal Dolan and Obama was just a mirage. Again the old adage. Watch what they do, not what they say. And now these “leaders” are going to lecture us on the “second amendment and the right to bear arms”. At the rate the USCCB is going they better pray that there is a second amendment because Obama et al is coming after the Catholic Church big time. They are marxist socialist. They have too. They can’t help themselves. The only ones that don’t really seem to know it are the Bishops of the USCCB. They have too busy issuing meaningless and mindless pronouncements on anything, everything, and nothing. God Help Us All and God Help His Church. Let us pray that we don’t have to find out why the founders included the second amendment in the Constitution…Hint? So citizens could protect themselves from a tyrannical government. Folks we are much closer to that than anyone really wants to believe. The Sandy Hook tragedy is just the latest excuse to disarm the electorate….aka as the standing militia….as in “We The People”

Emma: When I first answered you message, that was when they said I was sending Spam. It was basically the same as above, except you said “I know that the day someone told my husband that in order to remain a good Catholic, it would be required that he sit passively and watch someone kill his wife and children, would be the last day he entered a Catholic Church!” I agreed with your comment and so would my husband. Then I said how my husband who died 27 yrs ago today at age 62 was a WWII Paratrooper with the 101st and who fought 5 battles for our freedom that is being taken away from us little by little today. People who say that according to the Catholic church we should not carry a gun are the same people who say that they were “baptized Catholic” when actually they are baptized Christian, just as in any Christian Church and I stated they should learn their basic catechism. It really annoyed me that they called whatever I said spam and I guess I was rude in answering. The woman I heard say “we were here before, we are here now and we are hear to stay” was at a meeting for the Mexican Ministries in Richmond and I was there also with my Parish Church. Her tone was a bit menacing and I did not like it. I am not saying all Mexicans are that way but remember some of our diseases that we conquered in this country is on the rise because they are not examined as the Ellis Island immigrants were. Some people believe in an open society, I don’t. I believe each country should have it own rules. Also, as an 85 yr-old, I remember how our homes and cars were never locked.  People had respect for one another and for their property. How they found spam in that is beyond me.
P.S. if anyone has family who came through Ellis Island, just put EllisIsland.com on your search line….info is free. I found my parents manifest & ship;  Mom at age 10 and Dad at age 21. Very interesting.

@ Emma: Well they did it again. Wonder what I put in the message to you that was spam?  Why would they not tell me so that I won’t do it again.  Was it the fact that I said that a lady from the Catholic Mexican Ministry said at a meeting and I quote her “we were here before, we are here now and we are here to stay”.  I do not see spam in that.  Was it that I said my husband was a 101st paratrooper in WWI and fought in 5 battles for our freedom that is gradually being taken away, that he died at age 62—-just 27 yrs. ago today?

Catholic Register: let me know what I said wrong, that is spam…you have my e-mail address.

Emma: I also said that we took a trip cross country when the kids were young and we were stopped at the border of Calif. They checked our trunk and found oranges, which were not allowed in Calif, but let us go because they were under ice. Those were the days when our food was protected. Then I said that baby food that is from China made our babies sick and their cribs were not constructed properly….all public knowledge. We were protected by our government yrs ago, and now with open borders, we are not.  Obama spends millions and millions, yet does not have enough money to close our borders. What about the great wall of china,,,,they did it.

So many frightened Americans.

How will people protect themselves without guns?

Most democracies have lower murder rates than the US and much lower gun ownership.

@Rob
intentional homicide rate US 4.2, Canada 1.6, UK 1.2, Switzerland 0.7, Japan 0.3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Guns have been heavily restricted in the UK for most of the 20th century. The addition restrictions were after the Dunblane school massacre, and not expected to reduce “ordinary” murders. Australia also learned after a massacre and reduced weapon availability. In most democracies you need to show a justification for possessing a gun - not vice-versa. They are still democracies.

Will America ever learn?

Or will the world wonder who is madder - the school shooters or the NRA and their supporters?

There are many middle ways between a free-for-all and a total ban. I don’t think anyone is proposing a total ban on firearms, yet some react to moderate restrictions as if all guns are about to be confiscated.

Some practical suggestions for limiting the harm from guns - especially for those who try to be Pro-Life.

- A high tax on bullets, make each bullet retail at say $1 - $5. How many bullets do you need at home to protect your family? 20? 500? A reasonable number can be affordable, a large number can become expensive. Suitable tax exemptions for authorized shooting ranges perhaps from spent cartridges. Black market bullets would increase in price to be slightly lower than the legal cost.

- Mandatory third party insurance for guns cf cars. This would give compensation for the many firearms accidents from legal guns and get insurance companies to enforce gun safety.

- More affordable mental health care - school shooters are probably mad.

- Longer waiting periods and stricter checks.

- Do ordinary citizens really need heavier assault-type weapons? Many of the deaths in the semi-civil war in Mexico are bought legally in the US.

@jacobum: You are right about the 2nd Amendment. I don’t know much about the Bishops, except what I read on the Register. Today the NRA spoke up and it is a start. The trouble with our government is they start ‘now’ instead of earlier. They should spend money on closing our borders instead of other things. They can get the money.  Once the borders are closed, then we can work on the “gun” solution in the U.S.  I do not know why they compare us to other countries like the U.K. The U.K. is as big as Georgia….We are 50 states larger than them. Our problem is much bigger to control.  Our guns and drugs are coming across the border, lets start there. CLOSE OUR BORDERS! Diseases we had control of are starting again in our country because of illegals coming across. CLOSE THE BORDERS MR. PRESIDENT! Sure anyone can always get a gun if they want, one way or another, but at least we will have some control.

@Sue (old):  Amen.  The problem is that Obama doesn’t want illegals to stop coming.  He wants illegals to become citizens and register as Democrats.  This is the policy of the USCCB as well since it all plays into the advancement of their Socialism Gospel.  We are losing more of our freedoms each year and more gun control is on their agenda.  They wish for the United States to kow tow to what the world does (and thinks).  Those who drafted and signed our Constitution in 1787 have already turned over in their graves at what we have become.  There is something satisfying knowing armed citizens have more weapons than our own government.

The Catholic position on gun control is a solid, balanced stance with a clear eye and steady hand.  Point the weapon only toward that which one wants to destroy, avoid harm to innocents - love your neighbor as yourself.

Though I’m not against immigration reform,  I think in the case of these mass shootings,  we need first and foremost to examine our own homes and the way we’re raising our children.  Most of these incidents are being perpetrated not by illegal immigrants, but by our own.  As long as we point our fingers outwards a solution will evade us. I now see spots running on tv by celebrities crying out to stop the violence : the same ones who’ve profited by selling violence,  now want us to believe this is sincere?  Give me a break!  If they’re sincere,  perhaps they should return the millions that they themselves have earned by glamorizing violence!!!  We need to look inside our homes,  spend time with our children while they are in our care instead of farming them out to daycare and pressuring them to succeed,  while parents go off to their high paying offices!  We need to stop teaching children that success is measured by degrees and high profit and start teaching them that it is measured by how much we love and care for others.

I’m a mom of eight & an NRA member.The only guns I own are small caliber for shooting varmints & self defense.
The reality is that even a small caliber firearm has the capability to be converted & then fall under the “assault weapon” category if the powers that be in Washington so decide.The NRA’s stand does sound out of line until you consider the real intent of the gun control lobby.
During the same week that the shooting in CT occurred, a man in China stabbed twenty-some school children. Obviously, firearms inflict greater collateral damage, but we need to look at the causes & environments that create the unstable, violent young men.

@Kathleen: I agree with you. First of all, why does the ordinary citizen have to have a gun to defend themselves.  Why? Because our government has allowed illegals to cross our borders [not like the Ellis Island immigrants] Also our government has allowed drugs along with diseases to cross our borders, never in my young age were drugs so prevalent in the U.S. Drugs cause mental problems also. All our State Mental Hospitals were closed. I am not advocating opening them, but we should have more mental health clinics and get the drugs out of our country. It starts with the H.S. kids playing around with marijuana and it escalates to harder drugs. That is not saying all kids do, but there is enough of it in our country, that drugs should be checked.  Addiction is hereditary and if it is there, then we have our schizophrenics, bi-polars and more.  Our government has failed its people.  Right now you can get marijuana “for your health” in our country, [at least in Calif] but there is a shortage of B-12 injectibles, which I need for my pernicious anemia.  You figure.

Sue (old),
Merry Christmas!
I agree with much of what you say, but I’m concerned more with the drug cartels & gangs crossing the border than the folk who are just trying to better their lives.I also believe we have to enforce our borders for security reasons.Every other country does.Recently a group of Romanians crossed the Mexican border into the US & then crossed again illegally into Canada where they were caught. The British headlines called them “intruders.“I never heard any criticism of Canada’s immigration enforcement, nor sympathy shown for the Romanians.When the US enforces immigration policy though, we’re always the bad guys in the press.
True.Marijuana’s not harmless. There are several studies linking usage to psychosis in young people.I’m not sure though that the current drug laws are worth the cost of enforcement, but folks need to be honest about the drug’s harmful effects on those who are vulnerable.It may be due to the increased potency in the newer varieties.It’s not the same “weed” as in the 1960’s.And yes, it’s a “gateway” drug.Anyone who’s been around kids knows that.But, to be honest, alcohol’s a huge problem, too.
You have to also wonder about the prescription drugs being given so freely to young people and what effect those may have on kids, especially those who are unstable or have other issues going on.I know from a family member’s experience that some anti-psychosis drugs can actually cause psychotic episodes.My son worked in a high stress call center & said that easily 50% of his co-workers were prescribed anti-depressant/pyschotropic drugs to cope.Who knows what the long term effects might be.Combine that with broken homes,mental instability,social isolation,violent video games,access to weapons,etc & you get a toxic brew.

Kathleen, Merry Christmas to you.  Yes, many Mexicans come here to improve their lives…but, they have brought more diseases in this country. [along with others]  When my parents came in the late 1800’s through Ellis Island, if one had a rash or cough, they were sent back. Consumption (as they called it then) was everywhere. In the U.S. many diseases have been almost abolished through new drugs. The Mexican have advocates now. I know that from experience working in a our Church office in Virginia. The Hispanic Ministry leader said: “we were here before, we are here now and we are here to stay”. I did not like her tone of voice. Also, why are they allowed to burn our flag {as they did in Calif} and why could the American boy not wear his Am. Flag shirt on their holiday. Makes no sense to me. I guess I feel this way, because my parents brought us up to be 100% Americans. They spoke English to us., etc. Why does the Church say we have to help these people and they don’t say anything to the President,of Mexico. Mexico is not a poor country. Fine, if they come legally, but not illegally.  It was not easy for my parents or anyone coming through Ellis Island. They did it and appreciated this country. The Mexicans, on the whole, don’t….they have an attitude. How do you think Obama got in, promising them everything to building that memorial in California for them.  Wonder when that is going to be done…what is another expense to him….just keep spending and spending. Don’t get me started. Happy New Year!
P.S. as to drugs..I personally know of two young people who started on marijuana and ended up with hard drugs and a mental illness. It happens to those with addictive personalities.

As a college student in CA,  I don’t see a great deal of weed on campus.  What I see is an abundance of prescription drugs both legally and illegally obtained. Ritalin, xanax, ativan, ms contin,  vicodin,  norco annd a candy store of antidepressants.  All a person has to do is walk into a doctor’s office and tell them than they are depressed or anxious or unable to concentrate and out comes the prescription pad. These meds are used when people are stressed over exams or have had a breakup.  More and more turn to the easy, quick fix,  either because they’re under pressure to excel or don’t have normal coping skills that come from actually having been allowed to fail while still with parents who can guide then through a few failures.  There are no fathers in the home to guide young men. They don’t see that these drugs can screw up their brain chemistry.  If Mom and Dad use it and I have a prescription, it must be ok. These are not people who are by definition mentally ill,  but who cope by dependence on these drugs because they have been taught that grades and success are determinants of self worth, which equals parental approval.  When they fail, they self destruct. Children need to be taught that they are first and always loved and valued because they are all beloved children of God.

@Celinedesilva:  “Gun control: Church firmly, quietly opposes firearms for civilians”  If you don’t want a firearm, then don’t own one.  The Pope is not an American citizen.  He is German and has no business opposing my rights guaranteed me by the 2nd Amendment.

@ Sue (old):  [“How do you think Obama got in, promising them everything to building that memorial in California for them.”]  Of course, and then the local diocesan newspaper plastered a full color photo of Obama on the front page embracing the widow of Cesar Chavez for everyone to see.  Since the USCCB embraces the socialism gospel, Catholic David Axelrod parlayed socialist Obama and the national memorial dedication right into the hands of Obama to win over Catholics in California.

Emma,
Thanks.I wonder about the long term effects of prescription drugs on young people,too.As you point out, virtually no doctor will refuse to prescribe them for depression.Ditto for Ritalin-type meds if parents/teachers suspect attention deficit issues.Some drugs are not approved for kids under 18 but that doesn’t seem to stop drs. from prescribing them at younger & younger ages.
I just wonder what effect it all has on a young person’s brain which is still developing & if it has any bearings at all on the mass shootings we’ve experienced over the last decade or so? Maybe it’s some small piece of the puzzle.

@Casting Crowns: Evidently you come from Calif. I have a few relatives there for well over 40 yrs. and I know how it is with the Hispanics there. I have learned so much about the CC since I got my computer. The Church doesn’t know where it stands. First it is one way, then another. I am new in my State and have not registered at my Church yet. 20 yrs. ago they built two buildings, one with offices and another bldg a large room for activities and Mass. It takes care of 2,000 families with two priests. It is very adequate, yet they started to build a regular church bldg. which will be finished and Blessed for Easter Services this yr. [high tower capped with copper and a copper Cross] Why now, when so many people are out of work and all one hears is we need money, money, money.
Just like our government….spend, spend, spend. I will always remember the little church I went to in rural Va., our Priest, using a wooden Chalice that a man from his State of Mass. made for him. I often wonder what God thinks of all the gold etc. in our Churches. God, to me is not a king, he is a “creator”, He created the world with all the humans and animals in it. Kings do not create anything, they rule the people. God does not control us, he gave us freedom to chose right from wrong.

Pat,  we have a Constitution, and a prescribed method for amending it.  Until such amendment, it is the law of the land.  As Catholics, unless a law is contrary to natural law or otherwise objectively evil, we are bound to respect and follow lawful authority.  It is not a prudential matter.

When any of us choose to ignore those principles, whether Judge or layman, we are wrong.

The Pope owns guns.  Catholics are suppose to rely on the teachings of the Holy Father as to the suitability of Catholics owning guns.  God is NOT a respecter of persons.  All practical Catholics should seek to own guns >just like the Pope. ... Too many Catholics are schismatic-heretics trying to separate the faithful from the Holy-father.  >Follow the Pope towards the heart of God,  >own guns.

gghd:“God is NOT a respecter of persons.” God is Three Persons in the Supreme Sovereign Being. The Person of God, the Father creates man. The Person of the Son of God, redeems man. The Person of the Holy Spirit is Love between the Father and the Son and sanctifies man. God is three perfect Persons. Man is created in the image of the three perfect Persons of God. Love God. God is the respecter of Persons. The Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Man has an innate right to self-defense, because man is holy. “You are men sacred to me because I, the Lord, your God, am sacred.” When Obama relinquishes his body guards and goes about unarmed, only then can Obama remove all guns and ammunition from the people. Obama is one of us, a public servant.

Sue (old): “I often wonder what God thinks of all the gold etc. in our Churches.” Ask HIM, He, God, created the gold. God loves man more than all the gold HE created.

Speaking of gold : a family in Newton has already filed a million dollar lawsuit because their child was traumatized by the sounds coming over the pa system.  Instead of getting on their knees and thanking God for sparing their child.  Rather than teaching this child to support others who are grieving and heal through giving,  they sue!  Again,  I say,  guns are not the problem.  We need to examine what we are teaching our children,  both in the home and in society as a whole.  Money won’t heal a hurting child,  only love will.

From a life-long “gun nut” - I view the Second Amendment as the expression of a god-given right that I have to defend myself using weapons comparable to those the bad guys (including the government) have.  I will not surrender that right to a government manned by politicians responsible for promoting abortion.  They have already proven they will do nothing to protect the innocent, so I KNOW I can’t depend on them to protect me!  I will give NO respect beyond situational civility in unrelated matters to people (including clergy) who don’t get this, no matter how saccharine-sweet their verbiage.  They are “useful idiots” for the forces of evil.  As a Catholic, I cannot believe ANY Pope would ever pronounce ex cathedra against the right of self-defense anyway.

“Casting bread upon the waters.”
The Catholic, Douay-Rheims Bible, Acts 10: 34, “And Peter opening his mouth, said: In very deed I perceive, that **God is NOT a respecter of persons.**
The Catholic, New American Standard Bible, Acts 10: 34, “Then Peter proceeded to speak and said, “In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. 35: Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to Him.”
The Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks about Justice & the common-good, Paragraph 1807 is such a place.
Catholics are >blessed with a Pope, as he is given authority to lead >everyone to Heaven.  The Pope owns guns. = It’s theologically reasonable for people to own guns too.

@Kathleen ....you’d be surprised at the # of children who are “diagnosed ” with ADHD by their teachers!!  A friend recently encountered this with her 2nd grade son. Yes,  the child is high energy and would rather be outside playing,  but that his teacher would take the initiative and suggest that this child should be medicated is outrageous!  Class sizes have grown and of all things recess has been eliminated!  The solution,  drug the children because the teacher can’t maintain control of the classroom!  When the parents insisted that their son be evaluated by a child psychiatrist not affiliated with the school district,  he said he was a normal 7yo boy and recommended that he have more time to play outside and run around.  More time using his imagination in an unstructured environment.  In other words,  let him play and be 7 yrs. old!!  If the parents hadn’t been well informed or had been intimidated by the teacher (as many parents are)  he’d be an oversedated zombie instead of a rambunctious, well adjusted little boy!  There, I fear,  are many more children being misdiagnosed by unqualified people. I would never ever put my child on any of those medications without having them thoroughly assessed by a board certified child psychiatrist!  Psychologists,  most definitely,  are great at what they do,  but everyone should be aware that only a psychiatrist is a medical doctor and is thus able to screen for physical causes to any mental illness.  And, parents should always seek out one trained in the diagnosis and treatment of childhood mental diseases.  Too many unqualified gp’s are prescribing medication based on a cursory exam any statements of parents without making a referral to a specialist.

@gghd: Rockland County, NY published all the owners of guns in their newspaper..now the criminals know which homes do not have gun owners. Smart???

@Emma: Everything you said is true.  My niece was an overactive child in grade school and was put on Ritilin. It did her more harm than good, in fact it did her no good at all.
My Son/wife were told their son was depressed [he was a quiet kid and far from ADHD] and should go to a psychologist. They went to hear what the psychologist had to say. He was about to prescribe a medication when my grandson looked his dad in the eyes and said “DAD, I KNOW AM NOT DEPRESSED!” That was enough for my son and they were out of there…my grandson is now 27 and a productive young man.
In W.Va. they built a new school with no windows in the classrooms, only in the hallways. Can you imagine spending hours in a school with no windows?  Supposedly windows were a distraction. These kids were “prisoners of education”. There are too many so-called educators in this country who have no “common sense”

Emma & Sue,
I hear you both.
I have 8 children & know that many of their classmates were on medications.Sadly, some parents actually requested Ritalin-type meds for their children, thinking it would improve their grades. One of my daughters asked me if she could have Ritalin,like her friend, so she could score higher on tests, too.
We used to have two recesses when I went to grade school.Our entertainment was skipping rope or climbing on the trashpile outside the one room schoolhouse.It must have worked because we ran off all the extra energy & had no discipline issues, even with 1 teacher for 8 grades.
Sitting at a desk 6 plus hrs a day is not natural.Take a way recess & I guess the only way kids might endure that is through heavy drugs.Pretty sad.

On my campus, in the UC System,  ritalin is used frequently before exams.  Students aquire it from a family member and pass it out to others.  They do report that they’re better able to study and swear that their grades improve when they’re using this.  If that’s true,  other students are placed at an unfair disadvantage as most classes are graded on a bell curve.  I don’t see this as any different than an athlete using steroids.  Unfortunately,  there are those who have to be #1 at any cost.  As for public schools in CA,  if money spent on unnecessary classes was redirected into core academic classes, there would be enough to go around.  Antibullying campaigns,  sex ed,  gay history etc. Every time there’s a new social issue of the day, there’s a new class to address it!  Children should first be taught to read!!  There’s money to sneak young girls off to a planned parenthood clinic without parental knowledge,  but not enough to teach children how to read! It’s a disgrace!  Then,  every year they ask for more money for the schools.  My husband and I just had our first child this year and I can guarantee that neither he nor any other children that we may be blessed with will attend a public school.  Still,  my heart goes out to those who have no other option.  As for gun control : it’s nothing but the government stepping in where families should be. They’re now offering a placebo because they messed up badly during the campaign.  Rather than come out in support of marriage and strong families, they supported abortion rights.  If you promote death, death is what you get.  I just know that I will do whatever it takes to keep myself and my little family safe!

The Catholic position on Gun-Control should be: “The Pope owns guns.”