Jesus is not a Republican, nor are Catholics required to vote for a Republican who can’t make up his mind whether or not to be pro-abortion or pro-life and has spoken on both sides of the issue but promised to do nothing.  Catholics are not required to throw seniors and disabled people under the bus in favor of a waffling Republican whose only promise is to turn Medicare into a voucher program and further impoverish the already impoverished.  Catholics are not required to vote for a man who says that the 47% of Americans who are too poor to pay federal taxes are actually people who ‘will not take responsibility for themselves.’  Catholics are not required to trust a man who has proven that he will say anything to get elected, including lie.  [For instance, when he ran for Governor of Massachusetts, he had been living in one of his mansions in Southern California,but he claimed that his primary residence was his son’s UNFINISHED BASEMENT.]  Catholics CAN (and evidently DID) protect the poor, disabled and elderly by voting for a president that does not want to rip the food out of their mouths.  The problem with the laws in the health care bill can be (and are being) fought in court.  As far as abortion is concerned, there is more than one way to skin a cat.  After all, if a woman doesn’t WANT an abortion, she isn’t forced to HAVE one, like in China.  Perhaps Catholics have realized that the way to save unborn babies is to convince their mothers that killing them is a bad idea.  There could be an abortuary on every corner and there would be no abortions if the hearts and minds of women could be uplifted and inspired to see the truth, and if men could be persuaded to stop using women as receptacles of lust.  The problem with Catholics, if you ask me, is people like YOU…the writer of this accusatory piece.  Instead of inspiring people with your holiness, you are just doing what the rest of the country is doing and pointing fingers, causing division in the church and insulting people.  Catholics aren’t STUPID.  They used their powers of reasoning and deduction and opted not to vote for a candidate that wasn’t trustworthy or reliable.  They refused to throw grandma under the bus.  Good for them.

No, I did not.  As it turned out, it didn’t matter.

Silver Parnell: neither candidate was good. But please be a real Christian and forgive those who voted for one that didn’t have open hostility towards - literally attacking - the Catholic Church. Forgive those who voted for one who has not literally promoted more and more abortions, including taxpayer-funded abortion (here and abroad), late-term abortions, and even voted for infanticide, and called babies a “punishment”. Forgive those who feel that the right to life is more important than other issues, because somebody named Pope Benedict XVI said this is so. Forgive those who truly do not believe the Democrats can fix the economy any better than the Republicans and fear that they are likely to make it even worse, so poverty will come to us all soon. Neither candidate is trustworthy or reliable. Romney supporters aren’t stupid: they have values ordered differently than you do. Please forgive the Romney supporters. After all, your guy won, so please be a good Christian rather than a sore winner.

@MaryS - you obviously did not read the original article carefully, nor my reply.  I did not attack or criticize Catholics, therefore there is no reason for me to forgive them.  Also, it is not a good idea to assume that “my guy won.”  You would be wrong.  My guy did not win.  “My guy” is Jesus Christ, and there was no way for him to win in this environment…which is probably why Jesus DID NOT come to earth and assume an earthly throne, nor did he tell any of us to become lobbyists or campaigners.  He didn’t suggest, nor did he even INSINUATE that his followers should try to do ANYTHING in the political area, yet he lived in a brutal, barbaric age when the rulers actually killed people in grisly ways on a regular basis!  He was God and could have come to earth as anything he wanted, including a ruler on a temporal throne…but he did not.  Take the hint.

@MaryS - P.S.  The writer of this blog is the one openly criticizing Catholics for not voting the way he felt they ought to vote.  If you object to someone criticizing Catholics, you ought to take him to task…not me.  MY response to his criticism was to disagree with him and to support Catholics.

I have come to a similar conclusion, after reading the various reactions over the past week.  Politics doesn’t change culture, it is a reflection of culture.  If we change hearts, on the one hand it won’t matter who is in office, but on the other hand, the people elected will reflect the change of culture we effect.  Catholic education and engaging the youth of America is the key; I plan to talk to my parish’s pro-life committee about engaging our youth group in a big way.  We need to make a huge investment in sending kids to World Youth Day, funding scholarships to authentically Catholic universities.  Tom Monaghan was right that this is the way to change our world.

There’s no finger pointing, there is only work to be done.  Roll up your sleeves Brothers and Sisters…

We have to decide that we ARE up to the job, and get to it.  George Weigel said it well—that faithful Catholics (like me) sat on our butts and relied on the bishops to put out statements that no one would read or hear, when we should have been out on the streets proclaiming the truths of our faith and helping others understand why Obama is dangerous.  Now that he’s been re-elected, it’s going to be harder than ever to fight for our religious freedom.  As Paul Ryan would say, let’s get this done.

@Sharon - I don’t know where you live, but I haven’t relied on a bishop for anything in many years.  The time for when the bishops could have effected a change is long past, at least here in Philadelphia.  They came out more forcefully this time than in previous years - if you can call, “yadda, yadda, yadda, abortion, yadda, yadda, yadda, immigration, yadda, yadda, yadda, religious freedom, yadda, yadda, yadda, school vouchers” coming out forcefully (note the alphabetical order).  But it no longer matters.  The people sitting in the pews long ago lost respect for the bishops.  A couple of grand jury reports made sure of that.  Cardinals who should be in jail are either dead or being shielded by our country’s lack of an extradition treaty with the Vatican.
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All we can do is live our lives like our faith matters.  Catch some flies with honey.  Change the culture, then we can effect change with our votes.

“Jesus is not a Republican”

Pat never said he was so stop implying he’s a Democrat and that the Democrats cares. The Democrat party is corrupt to the core. Obama has done nothing to improve the lives of American’s or people of other nations. His agenda of increasing poverty is NOT compassion, pushing people onto the dole is NOT compassion, legal abortion is NOT compassion, attacking Pakistan with drones and killing children is NOT compassion. I am scared for our country - there will be full blown war in the middle east by the end of Obama’s last term - he’s inciting violence with his policies.

“They refused to throw grandma under the bus.”

Oh, honey, that’s right. They’ll need that bus to drive her grave when the Obamacare rations start.

The basic problem here is that both “sides” assume as a given that only the State has the power to effect real change.  Not so — as Pius XI explained in Quadragesimo Anno and Divini Redemptoris (expanding on Leo XIII in Rerum Novarum), the power is in each of us ... but only if we organize in solidarity with others, work directly on our flawed institutions, restore “power to the people” by vesting “the rest of us” with the means of acquiring and possessing private property in capital, and bringing the social order back into conformity with the natural law, thereby letting Christ reign in ALL hearts as Pius XI explained in Quas Primas — not a theocracy or a divine right monarchy, but people everywhere accepting the principles of reason embodied in the natural law “written in the hearts of all men.”  Individually we are helpless, which tends to reinforce the idea that (as one “Catholic” economist put it) “The State is the sole intercessor available to the poor.” In this way of thinking, if you can’t capture the State to force your views on others, you must submit to whatever the State chooses to dish out.  Thus, people are convinced that we must have abortion, contraception, gay marriage, etc., if we are to secure jobs and welfare; it’s the price you pay.  No, as Leo XIII explained, “There is no need to bring in the State. Man precedes the State, and possesses, prior to the formation of any State, the right of providing for the substance of his body.” (RN, § 7.)  Investigate something like Capital Homesteading that has the potential, as Cardinal Dolan stated, to restore subsidiarity and power to the people, not add to the power of the State: http://www.cesj.org/homestead/index.htm

Silver, you don’t think the president lies?!?! Do you only get your news from the Today Show? A man who lied to a bishop, would never get my vote, especially when it applied to our Church’s freedom. Pat charged everyone, including himself with this outcome. He did not just attack Catholics. Besides, you just as easily implied that people where horribly wrong for voting for romney, while possibly not realizing the depths to which this administration has already gone to undermine the church or any church : HHS, Hosanna-Tabor, Catholic Charities having to close because they won’t permit adoption by same sex couples, a much lauded catholic agency not awarded a grant to help trafficking victims because they won’t give out contraceptives and abortions. This is all not to mention the very real fiscal cliff that we are entering on at this moment. And lastly, most of us did not think it behooved the poor to keep a man in office who said that gas and energy prices would necessarily skyrocket under his energy plans. The effect this would have on the prices of goods and transportation will be catastrophic. Oh, and Dorothy Day did not even believe in social security because it left people beholden to the government. How do you like them apples? Catholic voters for Mitt were just using logic, and extensive research to determine who would be the better president, not relying on the media to tell us who these people were.

The bottom line is we cannot change the elections until we change the culture. We cannot change the culture until we have clear catechesis. You cannot expect the lay Catholics to evangelize unless they know what to say. While the current group of bishops are far better at this than those of past decades, they are still not speaking with a unified voice that is in concert with the Magisterium. When priests, nuns, politicians, and other public figures loudly and boldly proclaim an erroneous version of Church teaching, the bishops need to respond with equal boldness and volume and correct the teaching. Priests need to speak the truth from the pulpit. Lay Catholics need to know the consequences of their actions. Patrick mentions that even Catholics who go to Mass defy Church teaching and use contraception. Has anyone told them the consequences of their actions?  Actually, has anyone told them the consequences of missing Mass?  We have been very consistent about telling lay Catholics that if you get a civil divorce and do not get a decree of nullity and then you remarry, you should not present yourself to Communion. The bishops and priests should be equally clear in informing their flocks that if you are involved in any serious sin like using birth control, having sex outside of marriage, or missing Mass then you have taken yourself outside the Communion of the Church and you are not in a state of grace to receive the Eucharist. You must repent and go to confession before you present yourself for Communion. Publicly promoting such sin also separates you from the Church and from Communion. Consider this a form of spiritual informed consent. There is nothing pastoral or loving about enabling others to persist in sin.

We have too much government.  It is bloated..inefficient…and so broken I am not sure anyone can fix it.  Certainly not the current president.  We live in a society now that has an “entitlement” mentality, and they just will want more and more.  Nothing is free.  To complicate matters…we are spiritually broke as well and this is a much more severe problem.  The Church has not been able to stem the tide of spirtual darkness that has overwhelmed mankind.  When the “levy” breaks and it is going to at some point, we will all see the fruit of what we have planted. 

Finally, I have never and will never vote for anyone who is pro-choice.  They are fatally flawed right out of the gate.  How can anyone think that…you..me…has any right to give someone else the right to kill an innocent child in the womb or anywhere else for that matter. Certainly we are all sinful and weak creatures but try and explain that one to the Author of Life when you stand before Him.  Please.  50 million and counting dead…slaughtered children.  The Church I believe has stated that this sin is “unspeakable and cries out to heaven”...And let’s be honest..who will be next.  Anyway…for those of you who voted for the current president..you got what you wanted. This is your moment.

The problem,in a smaller way,is the Catholics & conservatives who bicker amongst themselves to the point where no candidate meets their standard of idealogical purity.

Silver: you say you are defending Catholics. I was trying to defend the ones you appeared to be attacking. Catholics did not vote 100% for one candidate or another. If “your guy” is Jesus Christ, then you didn’t vote for him: he wasn’t on the ballot. We weren’t voting for an Eternal King, but an earthly one, and were limited to a short list of names, knowing that one from a major party would win.

The author’s point is that we are all to blame, and I agree. Your point was to defend some Catholics, while I defending the rest of them. But I agree with simple point: we are all to blame. There are people in my life who voted contrary to Catholic teaching, and I didn’t do enough to educate them. There are people in my life who are not Christian, and I didn’t do enough to evangelize them. There are institutions near me that I didn’t do enough to move in a better direction. I didn’t pray enough or act enough to make things better. I accept the blame, and will try harder. Will you?

Do you really believe “this President has done nothing to help anyone”? No one? Not a single autoworker? Not a single sick person with a “pre-existing condition”? Not a single soldier who might risked his life for no good reason in Iraq? No one? President Obama is wrong on several issues—important issues—but when some Christians treated him as demon instead of as a fellow human being with whom they disagreed, they drove people away from their cause, instead of attracting them to it.

Silver Parnell, You can speak all you want about Romney being a “waffling” candidate re abortion and having cast your vote for Obama who you believe has the interests of the poor and the elderly in his heart, but there is one very obvious distinction..we all know Obama’s position on abortion..he voted 3 times AGAINST the Infant Born Alive Protection Act..This is in no way questionable..he supports the murder of the unborn at any stage of development. No, Jesus was not partisan..but He was very clear about intrinsic evil and those who promote it..I humbly disagree with your outrageous explanation of your choosing, knowingly, to support such a Candidate. No Catholic should have voted for him.

Thanks for saying it, Patrick.  Some of us Catholics in the pews wanted to stand up and scream at the “Catholics” for Obama who call themselves Catholics.  This is the most anti-life president ever.  Any good he may do for the poor is canceled by the fact that he supports infanticide, euthanasia and abortion, and he expects us all to pay for the evil practices.  The bishops spoke up, but weakly. The Republican party deserted the candidates who spoke the truth about the evils.  Until the Church and the political candidates are willing to speak the truth regardless of the consequences, we will continue down this destructive, deadly path of sin.  Maybe the bishops, priests or political candidates who can lead us with true conviction and fearlessness have been killed by abortion.  It doesn’t look too hopeful right now, but we the faithful are not about to give up. Look at the Coptic Christians who are being persecuted and martyred.  I read a comment yesterday from one in Egypt who said that we cannot hope for the support of the U.S. because they do not even save their own. Look at Israel, who this president also deserts. May God forgive America.

Dear Pat, thanks for telling it like it truly is.  So many Catholics are still lying to themselves about their faithfulness to the teaching of the Catholic Faith, so many did not take offense or even notice when this administration attacked our freedom of religion and the fact that we are funding the abortion industry.

I have been trying to figure it out too. We are all guilty of picking and choosing church teachings and make Catholicism fit into our convenient, pathetic lives.  How can the majority of Catholic voters embrace a President that allows Planned Parenthood to set public policy?  How?  Because we don’t care about the soul of the church - it’s people - The Body of Christ.  No. We care more about material subsidies and entitlement guarantees.  We will reap what we sow. Let us raise up faithful children and require Holy Priests to honor the gospel of life.

Pat has gone bye-bye. Egon… what’ve you got left?

Agree with this 100 percent. I too, couldn’t figure out how Obama got re-elected. He got re-elected by Catholics. I know some of them. Sad? Yes. But let’s wake up the faithful and re-energize our church with the truth. We’ve done a horrible job of communicating it. We’ve got an uphill battle and believe me, I’m terrified of the word my daughters are going to face but great things can come out of terrible tragedies. Obama being re-elected is terrible tragedy.

You are still blind to your biggest error: Obama has done things for the people in this country.  He has saved my life twice now through his health program.  He has taken us from a country that had to wake up every morning to yellow, orange, and red alerts, to a country that can breathe again.  He’s taken us from the brink of economic disaster and has, gently, slowly, put us back to work and stimulated our economy.

And he showed us the face of care and concern for the least of these.  Just as Jesus has taught us.  Romney gave us just the opposite face.  I don’t have to care for those people, he said.  And did.

Obama is far from perfect, from the religious point-of-view.  But combined with Romney’s sense of entitlement, his outrageous mode of treating other nations (he even managed to offend Britain, for Heaven’s sake), his complete lack of Christianity (with all that was hidden, never spoken about his faith) presented to me, anyway, no one at all to vote for.

Michael D. Greaney, you’ve hit the nail on the head.  Eileen, you may not have relied on a bishop for many years, but when was the last time you prayed for one?  When was the last time any of us prayed for one, for that matter?

When we will EVER talk about the divided Catholic church?  TRADITIONAL Catholic churches, with solid pastors and clergy, will teach the truth.  PROGRESSIVE Catholic churches, with dissenting pastors and clergy, will tell a portion of the truth, or a progressive version of the truth, or no truth at all.  I KNOW…I have been a parishioner at both types, and am thrilled to have found a traditional parish who will stand up for the true Catholic faith.  People who have been at a great traditional church cannot fathom the crud that goes on (and it does!!) at progressive churches.  Once we can grasp what is going on INSIDE our OWN CHURCHES, then we’ll know how to interpret this election.  For me, I already know the answer…bishops are the key to keeping their churches on track.  It’s a huge shepherding job, but someone has to do it.  PRAY for our bishops. 

No candidate is perfect.  YOUR job as a Catholic was to vote for the one candidate who did not promote intrinsic evil.  The only one who could do that this time around was Romney.  If you listened to the bishops, you would have realized that.

Mr. Archbold touches upon a very important point re “Mass-going Catholics,” not only their habits, but also that our numbers are shrinking.  People can still go to Mass regularly but blow off Church teaching that they find “too hard” and want to have any and every excuse not to “like” or to ignore.  And as we know, the Church’s teaching on contraception is the big kicker here.  There’s a little ditty that should sober up each and every single one of us that goes something like this:  “Paddy Murphy went to Mass, he did so every Sunday.  But Paddy Murphy went to Hell for what he did on Monday.”  Perhaps the far more interesting question is not how many Catholics go to Mass, but how many self-purported Mass-going Catholics take regular Confession seriously.  Regular Confession is what allows the Eucharist to work more effectively in a person’s soul, after all, so that God’s work can be accomplished through and in each one of us.  Just as we can’t rely only on the Bishops to do everything (because like us, they are only human), but should pray for them, support them, and keep pressing them to preach the truth, so that they know we have their backs and want them to be who they are called to be for us, we can’t do it alone, either:  “without Me, you can do nothing.”

“You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.” Mt 5:13

There is not one faithful Catholic…a Catholic who knows the real teachings of the Church..confesses their sins on a regular basis…attends Mass regularly and receives Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament…and does his or her best to live thier Catholic faith each day…who could justify voting for President Obama.  Not one.  The Bishop’s circulated letters that have been read time and time again laying out the guildelines for voting as a responsible Catholic.  They shouldn’t really even have to do that.  I am sick and tired of people who justify…rationalize…defend their vote for President Obama or anyone like him. If you do vote for representatives like this ...and call yourself a faithful Catholic then you are deluding yourself and are simply dysfunctional in your thinking.  You are more of a faithful democrat then you are are a faithful Catholic. I am sorry if this hurts your feelings.  I am sorry if you think I am judging you.  I am not.  It is just being truthful.  And don’t bother responding if all you can say is that you think I am some republican.  I am not.  I don’t much care for too many of them either.  I am an independent. 

Living out my Catholic faith means more to me then anything else to tell you the truth.  That is tough enough in this world today that I helped shape.  But..In the end..it is all that matters.  Most of the time I believe I know right from wrong.  Many don’t.  Or they do and just don’t care.  Let me conclude…if you think you are an orthodox and faithful Catholic and voted for President Obama…and anyone else like him…I feel sorry for you.  You are sadly mistaken.

The USCCB went a long way towards ensuring Obama’s re-election when they invited him to the Al Smith dinner along with Romney, which suggested that they were both equal options when in fact only one of them supports direct attacks on the church and the other does not. The bishops gave Obama a photo-op in which everyone was smiling, drinking, and self-congratulating. In effect this says, “We’re suing you since it makes us look pious, but we don’t hold anything against you.” Mixed message, isn’t it? Further, half of those bishops voted for Obama. This confuses the faithful. Not all the blame goes to the laity, 10,000 of which signed a petition begging Dolan to rescind the invite—his office rebuffed us.

I agree with Pat Archbold: From my own recent experiences I will reiterate about my new church friends and my new Parrish of 6 months.  If anyone on this blog has read the NCR, they will know that quite a few Bishops have spoken on this subject, one being Bishop Paproki. My own Bishop sent a letter to our Parrish and it was in our bulletin, similiar to Bishop Paproki’s.  That was 3-4 weeks before the election and nothing else was said, ever.  Our Parrish priests never mentioned the election. I believe that Pastors have failed their parishioners. They did not have to “tell us how to vote” but they could have emphasized the fact that the Healthcare wanted Catholic Institutions to offer their employees insurance to cover abortions, etc. That is the crux of the matter. [Thou Shalt Not Kill] As to my friend, I tried with her and her only answer was “I go to Mass and say the Rosary every day and I live according to my Bible” “what other people do is their business and on their soul, not mine”  [doesn’t My Brothers Keeper fit in here?] also she said “No one gives Obama a chance” Another brought up the pedophilia thing and I had to straighten her out on this. Someone once said that the Catholics of today have to again learn the catechism of the church and I agree. I keep telling my friends, read the NCR or some other Catholic paper or EWTN, etc. and they don’t. So I tried.
  So Pat is right in that over 50% of Catholics voted for abortion and they are the ones along with the Hispanics [whom Obama promised everything] Wonder if he will really build that statue in Calif, honoring the Mexicans. [forgot the guys name, forgive me I am 85] and I worry about my health insurance….I wonder when euthanasia in some form will show up. As Pelosi said “you will know when it passes” and little by little we are finding out.  As to voting..I vote the man, not Party. I do not like the background of Obama and all the people he associated with since he became an adult. He was a social worker until he was in the Senate 2 yrs and 4 yrs. president and he already is a millionaire. Hmmmm.  At least Romney had a good family & religious background and some of his businesses were great and some failed. That is how businesses work.  As a man of religion, I really believe he would never have forced the Catholic Church to support abortion through issuing insurance to employees.

What the author of this article seems not to understand is that there just isn’t a big enough difference between Obama and Romney to make a difference to many conservative voters.  Neither candidate was pro-life, and Romney’s healthcare plan in Massachusetts also had an individual mandate.  Both candidates support corporatist policies, and both are warmongers.  The problem is not Catholics.  The problem is the totally unrealistic belief of the Republican National Commitee that Romney was an electable candidate in the first place.  I am stunned that anyone ever believed that Romney could beat Obama.

There is this ongoing struggle between Cultural Catholics and Practicing Catholics in the US.  It is unfortunate that there is so much division between these two groups.  Practicing Catholics hold tight to the Truths taught by the Church and fully know the consequence of sin and disobedience to orthodox Catholic teaching.  We will do anything to stop abortion and euthanasia from becoming the equivalent, in society, as having a tooth pulled.  A beatified Nun working with the very poor (through her intimate conversations with Our Lord) knew the connection between abortion and a lack of peace in the world resulting in war.  As unpopular as it is to speak about, there are corporeal and spiritual consequences to sin that affect not only the individual but also the whole world.  If the fault falls on Catholics, it must certainly fall on those that have never been properly catechized, or those that deny the Truths taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, they choose to pick what teachings they want to believe and deny the others.  They don’t know the definition of apostasy.

What I cannot understand, is why the Catholic members of our government who endorse abortion have not been ex-communicated. I don’t claim to be a liturgical scholar, but it is confusing to me for the Bishops to tell me to follow the teachings of the Church on abortion, yet the former Speaker of the House, the sitting Vice-President, et al claim their faith with one hand while funding-endorsing abortion with the other.

Pat, you hit the proverbial nail on the head. You are absolutely correct when you say that the ultimate blame for Obama’s re-election comes down on the shoulders of the “Silent” Bishops and priests.  But why are they silent?  For some it might be fear. But I believe the others are silent because they are Liberal activists who will not go against the Democrat Party and its politicians.

Catholics need to be told that envy, jealousy and coveting other people’s wealth are all sins. Obama’s commandment is that we must covet the wealth of anybody who makes $250,00 year and not a peep from pastors. Not just Catholics by the way.
There is nothing moral about the destructive larcenous welfare state.

What a silly article.

The Exit Polls reveal Romney carried the white Catholic vote in every state outside Maine, Vermont, Oregon, Washington, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island, and carried it by at least 52-48 in the rest of the states, and over all by around 57-43.  In other words, Romney won most of the votes of not just Catholics who go to Mass regularly, but also the marginally attached who attend sporadically once a month or so.

What Romney did not win was the majority of the vote of Hispanic and Asian Catholics.

Apparently to Mexicans, Dominicans, and Fillipinos and others, ethnic considerations and overall ideological outlook was more important than religious considerations.  And the same held true for white Catholics, who overall tend to be more conservative and more Republican leaning, and also more faithful in attending mass regularly.

Perhaps the Church should pay a little more attention to nurturing her flock, and less time and money and resources on non-Catholics, particularly in the realm of education.  It is especially puzzling the amount of attention and money lavished on non-Catholic black Americans by the Church, while ignoring the needs of Catholic hispanics, who clearly, from their voting patterns, could use some education to conform more closely to the mind of the Church.

If Catholic schools were for Catholics only, and employed Catholics only, the Obamacare regulations would not apply as they would be bona-fide religious institutions.

Silver and Julia Mark are disingenuous or naive when they talk about the President “caring” about the poor and sick.  Most of the policies are about gaining votes and power.  Does it really make sense as an act of love to give illegal immigrants a free education when your own citizens can not afford to go to school?  Does it really make sense as an act of love to go over end of life choices with the elderly and to ask the citizens to pay for people in crisis situations to kill their own child rather than to help them and those around them to grow in compassion and love?  Does it really make sense as an act of true love to force same-sex marriage- a taboo for centuries because of the harm to souls, children, the individuals, families and society etc.- on a nation that is already divided by so many moral issues?  Also, did anyone else notice how the Republican computer technology crashed in Florida on election day so they could not coordinate efforts to get out the votes?  Best look at who is in charge of the computers of this nation, the vatican and the world or we will never see alot of things we hold dear again.

In this context, the statement by Blessed John Paul II in § 67 of Ecclesia in America is, perhaps, useful in explaining the situation: [L]ove for the poor must be preferential, but not exclusive. The Synod Fathers observed that it was in part because of an approach to the pastoral care of the poor marked by a certain exclusiveness that the pastoral care for the leading sectors of society has been neglected and many people have thus been estranged from the Church. The damage done by the spread of secularism in these sectors — political or economic, union-related, military, social or cultural — shows how urgent it is that they be evangelized, with the encouragement and guidance of the Church’s Pastors, who are called by God to care for everyone. They will be able to count on the help of those who — fortunately still numerous — have remained faithful to Christian values. In this regard the Synod Fathers have recognized ‘the commitment of many leaders to building a just and fraternal society’. With their support, Pastors will face the not easy task of evangelizing these sectors of society.”

Mass attendance is a start I guess, but;

“Let us never forget that an age prospers or dwindles in proportion to its devotion to the Holy Eucharist. This is the measure of its spiritual life and its faith, of its charity and its virtue.”

St. Peter Julian Eymard

Michael D. Greaney posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2012 8:56 AM (EDT):

“The basic problem here is that both ‘sides’ assume as a given that only the State has the power to effect real change.  Not so — as Pius XI explained . . .  the power is in each of us ... but only if we organize in solidarity with others, work directly on our flawed institutions, restore ‘power to the people’ by vesting ‘the rest of us’ with the means of acquiring and possessing private property in capital, and bringing the social order back into conformity with the natural law . . . “

Nothing wrong with organizing to improve our institutions, but Silver Parnell is accurate when he/she points out that “. . . Jesus DID NOT come to earth and assume an earthly throne, nor did he tell any of us to become lobbyists or campaigners.  He didn’t suggest, nor did he even INSINUATE that his followers should try to do ANYTHING in the political area, yet he lived in a brutal, barbaric age when the rulers actually killed people in grisly ways on a regular basis!”

The institutional Catholic Church got used to wielding political power long after Jeus walked the roads of Palestine. Some Catholics still confuse this interlude of Church political power with what Jesus intended for his followers forever and always. If you actually read the Bible, Jesus exhorted his followers to do good as individuals in order to be rewarded in heaven—and, by the way, the world was going to end soon anywsay.

I find it amusing how both traditional and progressive Catholics take that simple (and naive) Biblical message and conclude that Jesus had strong opinions on private property, capitalism versus socialism, slavery, unions, war, the funding of medical care, immigration, feminism, gay rights, scientific research, ethical investment and religious freedom.  It seems pretty clear to me that Jesus had no concept of a world where we tried to implement democratic government. Nor did he envision a world where those who claimed to follow him had armies and police forces at their disposal. He appeared to take it for granted that government was equivalent to a natural force—it could be beneficial like sunshine or disastrous like an earthquake, but there was nothing anyone could or should do about it. The only important thing to him was to make oneself worthy of heaven.

Over the centuries Catholic doctrine evolved in response to political, cultural, economic and geographic pressures. The Catholic hierarchy used and was used by other powerful entities as empires rose and fell. Tha left more than one mark. If we could bring Jesus back for a look around I do not think he would recognize either the faux-Renaissance princes lobbying in Washington or the Nuns on the Bus as having anything to do with his message.

@Michael D. Greaney - Finally, someone heard me.  God bless you.
(Miss) Silver S. Parnell

I have attended my church in s.c. for 6 months and nothing political is ever said. In fact the priests give me the feeling they are afraid to offend ANYONE by just teaching what the Church believes. Of course we already have a great complex with a bldg used for Mass & social things, plus another building used for committees. Now a church building has started with a high tower and bells that ring with colors. Will be completed by Easter and you can bet they want the donations flowing, thus no hurt feelings. I truly believe this. Once I sat next to a young man 30-40 yrs old who played games on his i-phone all through Mass, then another time I sat next to a woman who is living with a man out of wedlock and she goes to Communion. She has a right to do that because so do our Catholic politicians do it [Pelosi/biden/their disobedience to the church] The Church sets the example and the politicians are no better than us. So I am not judging this girl, I am stating a fact.
Yesterday we had the most beautiful Christening of an Asian baby. seats were reserved up front for the family of over 25 who came from afar for this Baptism. It was so beautiful to see I really teared-up and Father made it so personal and included the older sister of the baby who was grade-school age. He must have warmed the Holy Water, because the baby did not cry and seemed to like it so much that Father poured the whole pitcher on him. Everyone looked so happy!
This would have been perfect, if it was before we voted and Father could have said something about this beautiful life, etc. But if was after….lost again.
Because so many people have left the Church, especially the young, they just have to do anything to get them back. So I guess I cannot complain or judge. All that is left, as usual, is to pray and pray hard. There is a reason why things happen and someday God will show us.

Thanks very much, Pat, and you are SO right. After reading many response here it is clear we have MUCH work to do.  Nuns on the bush, many theologians, far too many priests and bishops AND lots of us lay folks, are disobedient pick and choosers, and it is time to buckle up, shape up and fly right.  THIS is why the Holy Father has this year of faith so we can ALL find out more of the beautiful Faith Christ Left us, pluming its depths, which are infinite.  Read the Catechism, get the Compendium for same, Documents of Vatican II, the bible, as Pope Benedict suggests, so we may learn what the Eucharist REALLY is, confession REALLY does, that adoration REALLY inflames… it is a BEAUTIFUL gift, this Year of Faith; let’s ALL make the most of it. If we did this, and had been doing this, obama would NEVER have won…but too many have become Sheepless,worse then sheep; SLEEPING SHEEP. Christ’s peace!!

Congrats, Pat.  We ARE to blame. Unfortunately, we have “gone astray” and ignored the Word of God and the Catechism.  Is it any wonder why we think that many Catholics think they have a right to “vote by their conscience” when they are told to do so by the USCCB?  Is it any wonder that when these Catholics consider what their conscience says to them, they vote “as they feel”, or by some extremely partial understanding of what constitutes the social teaching of the Church?  Is it any wonder that most Catholics can’t discriminate between the voice of the mainstream media and the voice of the Church when they are not told the teachings of the Church by their pastors?  Is it any wonder when pro lifers are vilified when the USCCB itself has vilified pro lifers for at least 30 years by saying that their examination of conscience has been incomplete because they have not followed the “seamless garment” approach to life issues:  balancing their decision to defend the sanctity of all human life in their political decision-making with the supposed compelling teaching of what is called “Catholic social teaching” that favors Obamacare and a Federal Entitlement State.  Is it any wonder that Catholics might be reluctant to vote Republican when the Georgetown “Nearly Ninety” Faculty did such a thorough job of vilifying Paul Ryan before his Whittington Lecture in May?

Mr. Greaney and/or Miss Parnell - I get that you disagree with many of us. But I don’t understand what you are suggesting as an alternative. Our Lord wasn’t on the ballot, so we couldn’t vote for Him. Therefore… what?

Didn’t Our Lord tell us to be salt & light? To NOT hide our light under a bushel basket? Are we not supposed to be the leaven in society? To bring the Gospel to the ends of the earth? That’s what the Apostles did. We are in the world, not of the world - sure, but that doesn’t mean turning our homes into virtual monasteries of purity and avoiding all contact with the unwashed masses. Or, if that’s not your solution, then what is??

I still support Pat Archbold’s thesis: we are all responsible for the gov’t we have. And the logical conclusion from that: we are all responsible for doing something to fix it. Every one of us. Including me. Including you.

On the contrary, I carefully refrained from agreeing or disagreeing with anyone.  All I did was point out a possible alternative that should be discussed called “Capital Homesteading,” which Cardinal Dolan has been kind enough to say is consistent with Catholic social teaching, especially the principle of subsidiarity.  We sent His Eminence a copy of our paper on universal healthcare without mandates, which we also sent to both Romney and Obama, but only the Cardinal responded: http://www.cesj.org/homestead/strategies/national/C-Healthcare12-07.pdf

And now, the unraveling… the spiraling into darkness.
But let the servants of the LORD come forth in great strength, the army of Light (of Love).

Catholic democrats have just ensured a generation of Supreme Court majorities requiring infanticide and holding God’s sacrament of Holy Matrimony in contempt, not to mention making it OK to threaten the Church and her institutions for refusing to abandon God and His laws. The evil man in the White House will see to that.

Catholic democrats need to rise to a higher level of knowledge re: economics. The Hitlerian denunciation of the wealthy does not help people like me on the lower half of the economic ladder. Government confiscation of portions of paychecks to promote dropping out of school, fornication and giving birth to children out of wedlock is not obeying the biblical instruction to aid widows and orphans. Endless deficits of trillions leading us to a Greek-style collapse hurts those of us at the bottom alot more than those of you at the top. We need low taxes across the board, reductions in government spending, entitlement reform, etc. This will make a buyer’s market for people like me and give us a wide variety of jobs to choose from and higher incomes. Then we can give more help to truly needy people around the world.

Please, Catholic democrats, read more books and open your mind. Your “social justice” is killing us. God spare us from such “compassion”.

The President of the United States has a distinctive role in this federal republic. As head of the Executive branch his job is to sign and see that laws are executed and he is the commander-in-chief. The role of Congress is to create and fund laws, the Judiciary is to make sure laws passed as well as civil laws (ones predating our republic) conform to the Constitution. The present government is like a white sepulchre, beautiful to behold on the outside but corrupt on the interior. Our president talks as if he is a king (see 1 Samuel 8). He was raised in a crucible of communist philosophy, came to college as a self-professed Marxist radical. His primary focus was community activism. This is the first time in the history of the republic that socialism was knowingly voted into office. So, what of the valorous soldiers in defeating socialism in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo? What was their sacrifice for? Winston Churchill said that “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” Ben Franklin said, “You have a republic, if you can keep it”, yet envy has been lifted up as virtuous, the rich have been pitted against the poor. Attack and divide. Then a solution that enslaves. . . We are so perilously close.  America has been the beacon of hope for people running FROM socialism. No one with an ounce of self sufficiency remained poor for long in the America that was because American government is based on the truth of Christianity as expressed in Catholic thought. America has always been the most generous country on the face of the earth (cf Lafayette, even back in 1826), thus fulfilling the ideal of the preferential option for the poor and we continue to tweak ways to take care of those who can’t or won’t take care of themselves. America supports solidarity (traditionally among the least stratified countries, where anyone can move ahead and no one is granted partiality due to birth), and importantly, it has traditionally adhered to the concept of subsidiarity - that which can be done at the level closest to the people should be done in that way - until we voted to throw it away because a president says he will not throw granny off a cliff. Just trust him. It is this misplaced compassion that is enslaving us. Solidarity without subsidiarity is unjust. Accruing power to the federal government in this way is unjust. If we ask for a king we shall get one (1Samuel 8). The only cliff we face is the fiscal one, and in the ensuing panic what will happen to the poor? When radicals cement their power freedom will cease to exist. I saw a number of youtubes prior to the election - an old Austrian lady who is so afraid for us. She said that 98% of Austrians voted for Hitler for he said just the same kind of things being parroted now. Except there really were serfs in Europe, even as late as the 20th c. My great grandfather in nearby Slovakia was one. My grandmother walked out of there to AMERICA at the age of 15 - to be free. A German man (ex-Nazi soldier) warns us. A Russian woman who escaped from Communism was on the radio, in tears as she saw what was happening. And yet… I sat for years in the pew listening to the left and right duke it out over my head, trying to make sense of it. People spoke ill of JPII in the rectory. The problem was that the progressives inside the rectory, some of the pews and the chancery believed the propaganda and magisterial truth was blacked out. Read Rerum Novarum, eye opening about socialism it is. Then through the grace of God, in 2004 I was led to the truth of the Catholic faith, which pierced the clouds of misinformation to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Through Blessed John Paul II’s words. Pope Benedict has carried the call to unity throughout his pontificate and a clearer, more level-headed shepherd we could not find, thanks be to God. And now through the HHS mandate, the local shepherds have taken up the torch. FINALLY! For the first time since Bishop Carroll had no dissenters because there was only one American bishop, the shepherds of the Church have spoken. Yet, in the pew we were so used to disregarding what the Church said, following our own poorly or unformed consciences, that we decided to listen to those we were accustomed to. Importantly for us in the faith community, he struck a blow at the Bill of Rights, first of all with Fast and Furious, aimed at the second amendment, and seems to have hit pay dirt with the HHS mandate. The lie runs deep, but God is on the march, and He is ferreting out the rot that has laid at the heart of the Catholic church in America. My prayer is that He will do it in time, for I fear for our souls, rich and poor alike. There is only one shining city on the hill, and when that light is snuffed, it may take a great while before another one appears and the misery and death that will occur will be due only to our poor choices. Reread the USCCB’s “Our First, Most Cherished Liberty”. I also invite those who think today’s liberalism is okay to read Peter Kreeft’s “Back to Virtue”. We have sold virtue out to vice. God’s goal is to conversion, but he also wants us to end abortion, the senseless killing of millions due only to our vanity, pride and love of earthly things. But it is not over. God has arisen apostles through the New Evangelization. His Church is on the move though it may not be visible yet. How providential the election is simultaneous with the synod on the New Evangelization. The NE began in the 20th century and accelerated mightily with the closing of the doors at the end of the millenium. I see a dove soaring through just as the great doors closed. The dove of peace, the dove of love, the dove that is the Holy Spirit. See Zenit: the Final List of Propositions of the Synod of Bishops. So yes, there is lots to mourn, but it is the path God has chosen so that great apostles can emerge from the rubble if the God-given Constitution collapses, to reunite the Church in all her beauty and end the scourge of abortion. Pray it not be so, but be ready if it is. Ephesians 6 “Put on the full armor of God . . .”

If I walked into a Knights of Columbus meeting…and the head Knight told me that the Knights of Columbus organization was announcing it was now supporting abortion on demand…and same sex marriage…I would turn my card in and leave them.  I would not remain a member.  There is no justification for any orthodox..faithful Catholic to remain a democrat.  How can they?  Even if they didn’t want to be a republican which I could certainly understand…they could not remain a democrat..and remain a Catholic in good standing.  No orthodox..no faithful Catholic..those that know the teachings of the Church and try their best to live out those teachings in their daily life,  could ever cast a vote for someone who believes what President Obama and the democratic party supports and believes.  I believe the Church would say…they are co-operating with evil.

No Mike, those are all just external symptoms:
.
“Let us never forget that an age prospers or dwindles in proportion to its devotion to the Holy Eucharist. This is the measure of its spiritual life and its faith, of its charity and its virtue.” St. Peter Julian Eymard

@s reno: Most people are “Party” people. I keep telling my family & friends that it makes them tunnel minded and unable to think for themselves. I am a Republican and I have voted Democrat and for other members of Congress in a different Party. They don’t seem to check out the people running and if I at age 85, know how to browse the computer and find things out, why can’t they. If I wanted to know how my Republican Representative voted and all I had to do is find it on the computer. So easy, as compared to when I was young. We did not get all this info. Well, it is done and we will have to do something about it, what? I don’t know.
P.S. My democrat Catholic friend told me that when her husband was living he saw a movie of an abortion at the K of C.

After reading through the majority of these replies I will admit I am most likely not as educated as most of you that have replied in this thread.  One think I do recognize is that all of you are preaching to the choir!  The people who proclaim they are Catholic and do not follow the church teachings are not reading these replies.  They will not listen to anything that goes against their permissiveness. I like to call them the Two Mass Catholics, they come to mass twice a year, Christmas and Easter.  I am shocked at the ones who can not even follow the mass and have their children with them who are trying to figure out what is going on because they have no idea.  These are the people we need to address, these are the people that are hurting our church and our faith.  These are the people that more than likely don’t care who gets elected as long as it doesn’t appear to upset their standard of living at this time.  If it would affect their material possessions they would be raising a very loud rucus, but they are usually affluent and don’t want anything to bother their norm in life.

Of course, God can and will fix this.

Not sure what “this” is.  He CAN fix the US, but is under absolutely no obligation to do so.

Jesus DID NOT come to earth and assume an earthly throne, nor did he tell any of us to become lobbyists or campaigners.  He didn’t suggest, nor did he even INSINUATE that his followers should try to do ANYTHING in the political area, yet he lived in a brutal, barbaric age when the rulers actually killed people in grisly ways on a regular basis!”

Of course, the next time He comes around, things should be a little different.  Jesus came to give His live as a ransom for many.  HE did not build a hospital, orphanage, successful business employing others (although we have no specifics on how His carpentry trade was doing prior to His carrer move), or many other things.  Roman Emperor, Governor of Judea, and other offices were not up for a vote, nor was He a register voter to my knowledge even if they were. Do not confuse His specific mission with your own.

Part of the problem of our Catholics being “party” people is the degree of secularization that has occurred.  We have to have pastors willing to address the problem, but most of them are afraid of being disapproved of, or, alas, are part of the problem themselves by living with hypocrisy.  We commend them for their service to the Church, even despite their hypocrisy, but many suffer by the sins of their pastors.  On the other hand, many will be saved by courageous pastors willing to teach and uphold the Catholic faith.

Actually, He did say “render unto Caesar,” didn’t He?

I am in complete agreement with the authors.  Obama supports infanticide by Partial Birth Abortion and his votes against The Born Alive Bill during his time as Senator in Illinois are proof.  I am guilty of not speaking up.  I have CATHOLIC friends who I am sure voted for the Occupior in The White House.  They are a older and I did not want to upset them.  I did not speak up.  I will always regrete my silence.

MaryS posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2012 2:56 PM (EDT):

“Our Lord wasn’t on the ballot, so we couldn’t vote for Him. Therefore… what?”

Jesus didn’t provide any guidance in government affairs. He didn’t weigh in on worldly laws that permitted slavery, torture, military conquest, or execution for worshipping the “wrong” gods, much less how taxes could be spent. There are so many variables and competing values involved in our elections that any vote can be defended with Christian principles and criticized on the same basis. It’s just an exercise in rationalization.

Jesus gave his followers the Beatitudes. Jesus told stories that praised acts of personal forgiveness and personal charity so that when the sheep were divided from the goats, his followers would be among the sheep. He valued loyalty to himself and his teachings only. When he forbade divorce for his followers, he didn’t say “Go forth and work to make divorce illegal in Palestine.” He said “Don’t do it.” He didn’t say “Band together and work for religious freedom.” He thought the important thing was to follow his teachings no matter the consequences, because eternity dwarfed all other considerations. He told his followers they would be persecuted for his sake. He didn’t say “You must make religious persecution illegal.”

C’mon, who thinks Jesus would care about laws governing the health care coverage provided by “religious” institutions that are competing for government contracts to provide charitable and educational services? The Romans took Jesus’ followers’ tax money and used it in the occupation of Palestine as well as financing other invasions and gladiatorial combats. Jesus didn’t care. He said look out for your eternal salvation.

@Lewis MCCloud: “After reading through the majority of these replies I will admit I am most likely not as educated as most of you that have replied in this thread.  One thing I do recognize is that all of you are preaching to the choir!”
I agree with your remark especially the one about the ‘choir’ but I have learned a great deal by being on this blog. It is good to hear other people’s opinions and through that we can reap more knowledge. I certainly am not a scholar of religion. I’m am grade-school-nuns-taught, plus what I’ve learned over the years.

Mr Arnold is dead on. Mr Silver Parnell defines the term..“useful idiot”

Many interesting comments.  I identify with most of them.  I still say you can’t be a Catholic and be a democrat.  It’s not possible.  I feel the election was lost by the Catholic vote.  We had the two best candidates possible.  I will not be able to go to confession until I ask the priest first if he is a democrat.  That would make him a hypocrite and me for going to him.  Two priests I know very well are in this group of hypocrites.  They don’t like the pope and they don’t like bishops who speak the truth.  How can we as Catholics listen to them or trust them.  My sister, a nun, has the same mentality.  She believes in abortion and gay marriage.  Do I look up to her?  I’m disappointed in her.  She’s a good person but so nieve.  Because she is well taken care of by her order she has no idea of life.  They are so used to taking from the government that they forget who is paying the bills.  This is probably true of the whole order.  Show me a nun that is conservative.  It won’t happen.  In other cases the excuse is “my union”.  Me, me, me is all they care about.  These are the catholics, the liberal catholics we are seeing.  The church must weed out the bishops, priests, nuns and politicians that are claiming they’re catholic and they really aren’t.  No more excuses!  Maybe it’s time for them to start their own religion like Martin Luther.

Anne ,
There are plenty of nuns who are orthodox, but usually they’re younger.

I agree with your article, except for your use of the word “you”, instead of “we”.  Why do you except yourself from the blame? Many a good Catholic has been turned off by your politically ultra-conservative writings. The Church is a sign of contradiction. I cast my ballot for Romney, but not because I’m a political conservative - it was because I was voting for freedom of religion, life issues and traditional marriage. If more Catholic members of the media had stressed these things rather than trying to make Democrats (or former Democrats) believers in political conservatism, more people might have voted for Romney.

As a pro-life Catholic, I support much of what you have to say.  But I was stunned by your assertion that “Even though this President has done nothing to help anyone ...”

Like it or not, Obamacare has helped tens of thousands of Americans get or retain health insurance.  His stimulus package saved thousands of teachers, fire fighters, and police officers from losing their jobs.  His bailout of the auto industry saved tens of thousands of good jobs.  His housing policies prevented many hard working people from losing their homes.  He withdraw U.S. combat forces from an unncessary war in Iraq that virtually every Bishop on the planet vigorously opposed.

I could go on.

If we are ever to address our problems, we have to be honest with ourselves & not be delusional.  Millions of Americans (Catholics included) had plenty of motivation to vote for President Obama ...

https://www.facebook.com/notes/tim-mathew/successfully-defending-life-a-post-election-reminder/10151071660785904 much better blog post about the election

Sowing and Reaping:
Um can we be frank here? Let us call a spade a spade. The Catholic Church in America leadership has supported and promoted Communist policies, a perversion of Catholic Social Justice Teachings until it hit them in the bank accounts.
 
Played a major role in the destruction of western civilizations protective umbrella of culture and nationalism in Europe and America with cultural relativism.
 
Additionally, in cooperation with the Corpo-Banker Government Global Elites under the guise of asylum and humanitarianism implemented through the UN and other cooperative treaties huge population shifts of forced immigration into sovereign western nations of anti-western socio-political, religious elements.
http://k2globalcommunicationsllc.wordpress.com/2012/11/07/crashing-western-civilization-changing-government-systems/

As to the main thrust of your piece…yes. however realize it did not matter who won the election for there is no distinction between the Corpo-Banker Government Globalist Elite backers of the Republican and Democrat parties and their candidates. The election was about Government Systems and they would not have been successful without Catholic Collaborators, Ringwraiths Riding Hard…Empower Sauron, Embrace Citizenship in Mordor
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/pat-archbold/i-figured-out-the-problem.-you

@Silver Parnell:

Thanks for your reply.  I was taken aback by this article myself.
After fighting battle after battle (family, annulments, etc.) I’m finally going through RCIA this year.  This election year has been so polarizing and divisive.  Some days I am left wondering if the Catholic Church is right for me.  I feel discouraged and I’ve had others tell me the Church doesn’t need me.  My non-Christian and/or liberal friends are pointing fingers and saying “I told you so” about other Christians. I don’t want to shape the Church according to my own views, certainly.  I don’t think anything is black or white. 

I am pro-life and I DO see a lot of good that Mr. Obama has done. 

I’m with Silver and with Michael Stone.  Until we have a more civil dialogue, where are we going?  We aren’t going to change the climate and paradigm surrounding abortion, and, therefore, change Roe v. Wade.  We need compassion and understanding of where others are coming from.  Let’s stop vilifying one another and have each other’s back as Americans.

Michael Stone:  How about we qualify it. He did nothing good that any other President wouldn’t have done with more moral and fiscal responsibility.  He is not evil in Christ’s eyes and hopefully not in ours.  But he is certainly a lost sheep. I can’t remember a bill that didn’t have something attached to it that was highly controversial if not immoral to Christians or devastating to our economy.  I do remember the four years without a budget because he refused to do anything but what he wanted and then proceeded to say others wouldn’t compromise.  I do recall many recess appointments that probably were grounds for impeachment. And I do remember the concerted effort to get us so deeply in debt that we would have no other options. This has always been about being a secular nation v. one based on judeo-christian ethics.  This has been about normalizing immorality in our priesthood and society rather than repenting and obeying God’s word. This has been about loosing sin rather than believing Christ conquered it.  God is not a fool.  We need to all grow in holiness.

Mr. Archbold,
Thanks so much for the article, and what I was thinking.  I am very disappointed in some “So Called Christian Cathilics” who I would ask to please leave the faith, we dont need you!  You are not real catholics…I read the posts here and find myself sad that there are catholics out there who would vote for abortion?  Who vote for the distruction of Medicare, and please the person that says they do not trust the bishops, I ask you, dont call yourself catholic, you take away the respect of the church and the Vatican and the Father/Abba - Pope Benedict XVI, you are sad misguieded person and need to go to the local Babtist Church which awaits for you to drink the Cool-aid….

Well said. Each of us has the responsibility to stand-up for our faith.  I am from the Philippines.  And the election in the US was pretty much my concern because he is the leader of the strongest nation.  And he has much influence on the policies of many nations.  I am afraid that if a leader who is pro-evil works get elected, all of the other countries will be influenced by him.  The dreaded has happened.  I really hope that we will learn our lessons.  In everything we do, we should always be guided by the Will of God.  Not by the people’s choices on how to live their lives.  Obama acted like a genie who grants their immoral ways like divorce, abortion, prostitution, gay marriage, & so many more…Let us pray that we will all be enlightened by the Holy Spirit.  And that Obama will realize all the mistakes that he has done & believed in.  God save us all!

Yup. Catholics. Also voter fraud.

Well, here’s one way to deal with it(I have to admit this was going thru my mind on election night,too):

“Secession petitions after Obama win”
More than 100,000 Americans petition the White House to allow their states to secede from the US after President Obama’s re-election.”

Thank you Mr Michael Stone for your post.
It is very illustrative and informative of the thinking (if that is what you call it) of those “Catholics” who have been duped and infected by the “seamless garment” “social justice” heresy of the late Cardinal Bernardin of Chicago. It is the equivalent of the liberal/progressive “Catholic” approval of “moral relativism”. The “seamless garment” theory views all moral issues through the prism of “social justice” where abortion, nuclear disarmament, and poverty all have equal weight. (absolutely wrong of course). Therefore, the practical effect of “SJ” is it only considers the results. This makes it easy to delude oneself that the ends do justify the means. If the perpetrator’s intentions and feelings are in the right place then it’s deemed acceptable. Just look at the examples you use of Obama’s goodness. You cite not one shortcut, abuse of power, abuse of law, corruption, cronyism, political payoff etc..behind any of his “help”...all of which are ready available to a cursory google check.

At the same time you declare yourself as a pro-life Catholic. That you might be but it is clear you are misinformed at best as to authentic Catholic doctrine/teachings. Not to be unkind but you are another “useful idiot”. A kind one and well meaning for sure but surely you must know Santa Claus doesn’t exist no matter the alias used or the gift given.

Unfortunately, Cardinal Bernardin also was a very liberal bishop who had a Santa Claus syndrome and a disproportionate influence in recommending the appointment of US Bishops. We are still suffering through the appointment remnants of his like minded “shepherds”. The USCCB and silence of bishops (with few exceptions),their ambiguous statements, and lack of clarity over 35+ years speaks volumes. The results of the self-inflicted damage are right before our eyes. It’s not money. It’s moral bankruptcy.

I became a Catholic as an adult in 1974, post Roe vs Wade. Over the years I have seen the hierarchy do nothing to call supposed Catholic politicians out on their antilife ideology, apparently in fear of offending “social justice”. A cruder person might articulate this as: f*ck you “I am the problem”. The hierarchy has done nothing but bend over to take it in the a** for decades. How’s that appeasement working out for you? Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind, m*therf*ckers.

Pat Archbold… yes… this is SO going to encourage more Catholics to come to weekly Mass or even to church at all… not.

As my Argentinian friend, who grew up under Perone, and moved to CA in l962 said: He ruined her country that was 90% Catholic. Little by little he started to control things and then controlled the Catholic Church completely. As a result her family joined the Baptist Church. After hearing her horrible story…I don’t blame her.  Read about the “Dirty War” in Argentina. It’s on the internet.
Can’t we the people of the U.S. see this in Obama, little by little our government is controlling us. [he is already trying to control the Catholic Church]  We NEED a smaller government.
As to what someone said above about Romney and the 47%, he was talking about the people who were takers, who would take anything for nothing, NOT POOR PEOPLE. Wake up! there are people who would rather not work. Remember what Pres. Clinton did with welfare…he made them go to work.  I shall end up saying this, since at age 85 I lived through it. FDR DID NOT END THE GREAT DEPRESSION…WORLD WAR II DID.

Pat, you’re exactly right. I need to be converted. I really do want Jesus Christ to be the LORD of my life. I really do want to live for HIM according to His will and His word. I know it will take me awhile to overcome my many weaknesses and besetting sins and I thank God that I can find the grace and power to really give myself to Him through receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the Holy Eucharist, and that He meets me to give me a personal experience of His love in daily prayer and meditation. I hope I can share that same love with my family, my parish, and my neighbors. I don’t know what will happen, but I also hope I love Jesus enough to die for Him if it comes to that- but in the very least to die to myself for love of Him, daily.  Pray for me!

I just saw the devastation on L.I. and Staten Island again and a thought came to my mind…where there is bad, good can come out it. Maybe I am simplistic in my thinking but I did think this, that we now need many builders [carpenters/electricians, plumbers]to rebuild the homes that were lost and the Electric company is going to have to do something about putting wires underground…so the devastation will bring jobs. I am not belittling the suffering all these people have been through and still are going through. It is just a thought and Obama will take the credit. In my Church we had a collection for them this past Sunday and next Sunday it will be food.
I equate this to my husband’s dying at age 62…though it was really hard for me,I always believed that things happen for the best and God has gotten me through it, in so many ways, it would take pages to type.  My WWII husband would be furious at this administration, it is NOT WHAT HE FOUGHT FOR.

@ Jo Flemmings -  You brought tears to my eyes. I attempt to go to mass regularly and to teach Jesus’ love to my children, but I have placed people ahead of my love for God. I am too worried about offending someone to evangelize and educate people.  Your sentiments are truthful and touching.  I will pray for you. Please pray for me.

Pat, some of us tried, risking family and friendships to open people’s eyes, but, as you said, we’ve had a generation of priests who’ve never mentioned Catholic teachings from the pulpit. One dear visiting priest gave a homily the week before the election and laid it all out for the congregation in solid Catholic terms. People walked out and complained to our new pastor when he returned. Thank God, he defended the priest, and is slowly—one small mention at a time—trying to teach people the immutable social teachings of the Church, but he’s got an uphill battle. Where was our bishop in all this? Our local Carmel Mission Foundation just invited Leon Panetta to speak at its fundraiser, and not a peep against this choice is heard from the bishop. How can you catechize Catholic lay people when we have no leaders leading?
It all reminds me of a quote I heard after Columbine. “God is a gentleman. We told Him to butt out, and he did.” Mercy on our nation, Lord!!

I am currently taking a history class about the Catholic church.  What I discovered is when the church got involved in politics it usually caused big problems to the church and her people.  I was born during Vatican II and lived my whole life with the Catholic Church picking political sides (Democratic party)  Now we are where we are.  The priests or bishops that try to speak out always seem to either be in the minority or are silenced out of fear or rejection.  I am afraid for my kids.  I have to fight everyday to teach my teenaged children how important God is.  I feel I am fighting the world as well as some in my church.  The beatitudes were meant for us.  We were not suppose to give our responsibility to take care of our brother and sister to a secular government, but our bishops and priest say otherwise.  If I don’t personally help the poor or at least pick a Cattholic charity am I helping to spread the word of God?  Look at Joe Biden, his personal charitable contributions is significantly less than mine.  I sure don’t make any where his kind of money.  You have to ask why?  I think Mr. Biden believes his taxes are sufficent.  He has remove his personal responsibility in his relatinship with God.  How I long for the day when we will have more John Vienney type priests.

@silver…you participated in evil, end of story.  That’s on your soul, not ours.  Have fun with that.

Interesting posts everyone. I enjoyed most all comments posted. I may not agree with all of them and in fact I like our current President as a leader of the “general population”. Had it not been for the HHS mandate I would have voted for him again myself. With all these comments regarding the poor, the elderly and food stamps I am still as an American quite baffled. Poverty in America is not quite the same as living in a mud hut in central or South America nor is it as life threatening as Africa. The common person middle income to the “impoverished” by American standards still lives in a society of luxury. A one car family with a mortgage is considered impoverished if his income is below a certain level still while he has clean drinking water, access to transportation and school for his children. Facts in America are distorted by the very people who want even more luxury without giving an extra nickel to a country that provides the freedom to educate oneself to an even higher level for a greater income capacity. My 7 year old daughter said it better than those educated years beyond her: poor people have no food or homes. The truth is that people here want even more luxury and the right to live whatever way they choose without consequences. We are an entitlement society and many Catholics I have met seem to be some of the worst. Why would any Roman Catholic who is truly practicing expect that others would care so highly about what we want? Those that think that we are the popular opinion live in a bubble. Haven’t our lists of martyrs years past to today shown us anything at all? Our so called moral and sometimes fiscal selves are never a popular opinion; responsibility in this age is as unpopular as keeping your pants zipped until marriage. Most mothers are single now a day and men fight to take a better living home in their pay instead of giving it to their children. Take a good look at every billboard around you, almost every show on TV and every ad that does sell, then come back and tell us how different we, the few practicing are to the rest of America.

@Silver Parnell is the perfect immoral bleeding heart.
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“Catholics required to vote for a Republican who can’t make up his mind whether or not to be pro-abortion or pro-life”
- Obama made up his mind and is the immoral choice - a vote for Obama is a vote against life and against God.
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“Catholics are not required to throw seniors and disabled people under the bus”
- No Catholics are required to love, help and comfort them.  You Silver are doing none of these by voting for Obama. Like a thief donating stolen money, you vote to steal money from others to assuage your own sin.
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“Catholics are not required to vote for a man who says that the 47% of Americans who are too poor…”
The church states emphatically that class warfare is immoral.  Help the poor, don’t encourage then to be impoverished so you can feel better about yourself.
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“Catholics are not required to trust a man who has proven that he will say anything to get elected, including lie.”
- While I think that this phrase much better describes Obama, who has claimed to be a prince and claimed his father came to this country on a grant that was not invented yet - yours strikes me as an excuse/rationalization to vote for Obama who has:
- Promoted Abortion
- Promoted Class Warefare
- Promoted attacks on religion
You are rationalizing what can only be described as an immoral vote.
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“Catholics CAN (and evidently DID) protect the poor, disabled and elderly by voting…”
- This is the great lie of Satan.  You cannot do God’s will with stolen property. Catholics who vote to tax others to perform charity are committing a double sin - one of not taking care of others themselves and two of violating others in the name of God.
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“After all, if a woman doesn’t WANT an abortion, she isn’t forced to HAVE one”
- This is like saying “If a rapist doesn’t want to rape someone they don’t have to”, so I guess by your logic we should legalize rape?
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“Instead of inspiring people with your holiness, you are just doing what the rest of the country is doing and pointing fingers”
- And you Silver by your vote are Condoning Abortion and violation of religious and personal rights
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You may have convinced yourself you are not sinning, but don’t double down by dragging others to hell with you.
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Dignity does not come with a handout, it comes with a job, producing something with your own sweat, time and heart.  If you work at that you are no longer poor and you can help others with food and water.  But if you allow a govt to take peoples property, then you have destroyed that dignity and stolen part of that persons life.  Yes, give a handout to the desperate, but give a job to anyone that can work and let them develop skills and confidence that will lift them out of poverty.  Give them comfort, company and sympathy when they need it and give them the Gospel when they thirst for God.  These are what we can do ourselves, not by enslaving others and calling that God’s will.
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I apologize for the harsh tone, but even this does not express how immoral I think your type is.  I pray the honesty lets you pause and consider that “nothing but personal action and giving can be moral”.

I noticed that statistic about Hispanics voting overwhelming for Obama and his various pro-abortion and anti Catholic policies. I was put in mind of the Hebrews worshipping Baal in Moses’ absence. There really is an absence by the Church hierarchy in America to lay out the issues before us and how they relate to our political system.

I sat at Mass a few weeks before the election listening to Archbishop Chaput tell us to vote as Catholics. What is one supposed to make of such a statement. Nancy Pelosi is a self described Catholic in good standing with the Church, as is Paul Ryan, as is Joe Biden, as is my state’s senior Senator Bob Casey (the son and very pale immitation of the pro life Democratic governor). My Congressman, a man named Chaka Fattah, is an unreconstructed Know Nothing but his opponents did not bother to advertise a position on any issue so even there how should a Catholic vote.

And Cardinal Dolan was even worse, yucking it up with Obama and Romney at the Al Smith dinner as if he were not suing one for the greatest infringement on our Church in over a century. The good cardinal let it be known that he hoped a question about religious liberty would be asked during the debates. If the issue was important to him, why did he not interrupt not very humorous monologues and ask his question at the dinner?

And that’s the problem with all this. The hierarchy wants to appear to lead, but it doesn’t really want to offend anyone in the process. The Pope was just as timid in Cuba. But what really suffers is Truth. And there is only one Truth. In America we need the Truth to be spoken. I do not think that anyone who hears the truth spoken clear could do anything but pray for the defeat of Obama. That is a small, temporal thing to be sure but it certainly is better than the whimsical moral equivalence that is being preached today.

Perhaps I’m thinking of the wrong person, no, I’m pretty sure it was Jesus who taught us not to judge others, to not throw the first stone. 

The only judge is God.  And we’re all in line to be judged.  And the first in line will be those who think they have done nothing to be judged for.  You know, blessed are the poor in spirit.  The meek.  Not the arrogant.  Not the boastful.  And, most especially, not the hateful.

Jesus hung out with prostitutes.  He healed blind beggars and insane outcasts. 

I think his line was, go, and sin no more.  Not, if you’ve ever sinned in your whole life, then, forget you.

You don’t represent Jesus.  You don’t represent God.  Unfortunately, you represent an expression of the church that has clearly forgotten both God and Jesus.

And may God have mercy on your soul.

Well, in our defense talking to a “progressive catholic” is like talking to a wall… they keep talking about how Obama helps the poor, and how we should love each other (which we should)...blah blah, while conveniently ignoring several teachings regarding abortion, marriage, euthanasia, etc. It turns out to be a hige waste of time

And now, the unraveling… the spiraling into darkness.
But let the servants of the LORD come forth with great strength, the army of Light (of Love).

What strikes me about this conversation is how easily disrespect is expressed. 

But another thing that strikes me is that abortion has been legal since RICHARD NIXON was president. Not Obama.  The outcry now is, well, striking.  I don’t remember all the torn shirts and wailing when Bill Clinton was elected.  And re-elected. 

Perhaps there’s something else that is going on here, and across the nation.

Making people your enemy is not the answer.  It’s not the teaching of Jesus, either.

@Julia Marks <sitting in the corner with her fingers in her ears>
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Note: I’m not stoning anyone, I’m not condemning them to death.  John the Baptist tried to speak the truth to sinners.
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The truth.
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If you do not want to hear the truth then go on sinning and claiming everyone who tries to warn you is somehow judging you. 
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The mantra of the new left “Don’t judge me”, aka “don’t remind me that what I am doing is wrong”.

JB from Philly is right on! The leadership from the clerics runs from non-existent to awful. As a disgusted former pastor intimated just before his resignation, “They all think they’re politicians.”

@Julia Marks
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So are you making excuses for Obama’s unlimited abortion stance? 
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Yeah I’m gonna somehow bet that Jesus would might just speak out against the murder of children.  You know that Jesus that said “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” and “Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
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Fighting to stop evil does not mean you hate the sinner, it means you only hate the sin and pray that the sinner can one day see the truth.
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It is not love to stand by and watch the Holocaust silently, we need to yell at the top of our lungs to stop their leaders.  We need to encourage those who are faced with a new life options like adoption.
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Don’t be afraid to see the truth.

@Julia Marks: “It is wrong to be judgmental as regards persons, but it is equally wrong to refuse to judge actions.”  - Dr. Peter Kreeft

IOWs: We MUST judge actions and behaviors. Think about it: if somebody stole your car, you’d be “judgmental”, wouldn’t you? But we cannot judge hearts - that’s God’s job.

So Moses gave us “Thou shalt not kill”, and the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade gave us legal abortion. We must obey God, not men.

As to nobody complaining when Bill Clinton was elected… First: uh, yes, many did. Of course, we didn’t have blogs and facebook, but that doesn’t mean we all thought it was OK. And Secondly: Obama has done far, far worse in regard to abortion. Each day, more than $1M goes to Planned Parenthood, Obama’s favorite supporter. Those are my tax dollars. I’m doing everything I can to reduce my taxes in order to limit the amount of blood on my hands. But it is far worse now than under Clinton. and what about that direct attack on the Catholic Church and many other Christian organizations? You know: the HHS contraception mandate, with 100+ plaintiffs in 40+ law suits. Clinton was not my favorite president, but he was a far cry better than Obama on these moral issues.

@Laura M - excellent point! Talking to dyed-in-the-wool always-vote-Democrat Catholics very often is like talking to a wall. So, while it is our responsibility to try to reach them, we cannot stop with just talking to them. We must also pray for their conversion. Pray that the Holy Spirit will break open their hearts and pour in the grace they need to humbly accept the teachings of our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. And soon!

@JB
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I don’t know if this will help, but sometimes I focus on fighting the good fight, running the race, doing what I am called to do, rather than focusing on the war.  Christ has already won the war over evil.
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I can not solve world hunger,
but I can feed many and donate to CRS to build wells.
I can not end sorrow,
but I can visit the lonely and welcome the stranger.
I can not end poverty,
but I can donate clothes and visit the infirm or imprisoned.
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I think for we as individuals it is not about how many are hungry, but it’s about how many we feed and not about how many are astray, but how many we can lead back.
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Just a thought.

@MaryS said “We must also pray…”
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Amen

“A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.  A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.  From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship.”

Americans voted for their paychecks. They had no concern for their Religion.

We practicing Catholics are the Militant Church and like one priest in EWTN said we should do and help the work of the priests speaking out every time we have opportunity, and from the pulpit should not be watering down and should be speaking out.

While talking with an Spanish speaking person she told me she voted for Obama, she told me she did not know Obama supported abortion or gay marriage, and this is not the only one Catholic Spanish speaking person I talked to that voted for Obama,

Even though we lost a battle God will win the war! for some reason God allows things to happen.
Like the Virgin Mary in Fatima said, “At the end My Immaculate heart will triumph”

God Bless America and lets pray for Obama and specially for the Catholics that voted for him.

When did the president declare open war on the Church and religious freedom? That is all your fear-mongering—The president never threatened any one, let alone declare war on anything. All that is propaganda from Catholic and other Christian pundits.
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Now you’re blaming Catholics who didn’t vote the way you wanted them to? Maybe God is a Democrat—it just might be possible that YOU ARE ON THE EVIL SIDE.
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What kind of suffering do you expect—prison camps? A Liberal Inquisition? Gas chambers for Catholics?
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All this apocalypse ranting is ridiculous at best and dangerous at its worse. You should be ashamed of yourself.

@fourmoreyearsofobama
“When did the president declare open war on the Church”
- When he had HHS mandate that religious institution provide abortion, contraceptive and sterilization services.
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“Maybe God is a Democrat”
- Right, God is for aborting children right up until delivery and even aborting children as they are delivered.  God is also for preventing doctors to provide care to a baby who was part of a botched abortion, God is for letting the newborn die without care, to ensure that the intended death of the child succeeds.  God is for making Catholics who oppose abortion pay taxes that fund the murder of children here in the US and in Mexico.
- Oops, no, that would be the devil not God.

@fourmoreyearsofobama: if you are unaware of the legal issues (40+ law suits representing > 100 plaintiffs) against the Obama administration’s directly forcing religious institutions to violate our beliefs - clear intrusion into Church affairs, then you should be ashamed of yourself. If you are insensitive to the plight of those of us who are being forced to violate our consciences, then you should be ashamed of yourself. If you are the kind of person who is perfectly happy to throw out God’s laws for favors from man’s laws, then you should be ashamed of yourself.

We, however, must obey God, and not men.

You got your 4 more years. Be a good sport now, and show some sympathy to those who are a bit more aware, and can see a bit more clearly what is already happening as our freedoms are being trampled. I predict that it will affect you, too, despite your bravado. Those of us students of history know that Catholic church is the canary in the coal mine.

May God help us, and save us from the foolish pawns. And may the Holy Spirit convict the hearts of those who are now happily celebrating the unconstitutional attacks on Holy Mother Church.

@four: Please be so kind as to read this, so you’ll be educated on a few little facts about religious persecution already under way: http://blog.faithandfreedom.us/2012/11/government-now-wants-to-redefine.html

Even if none of these issues are important to you, personally, can you, at least, imagine how you might feel if something you really cared about was being taken from you?

Pardon me, my “dears”—
There are lawsuits against the HHS mandates, as you say. It is up to judges, etc. to interpret if it is Constitutional to pass the law. If it is unconstitutional, it cannot be made law.
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You are not being “forced” to do anything you have not willingly done before. Contraception, abortions, and any other medically necessary procedures are already covered by insurance—all or in part. If you pay insurance premiums, you pay for all the medical expenses necessary.
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All this fuss about the HHS mandate and “war” against the Catholic faith is just a distraction from the child abuse scandals and the illegal activities of the Pope and in the Vatican. You make a lot of noise, but you have nothing to back you up. You have no rights to control what people do, and no religion or government can make people behave as the Church thinks they should.
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Now you are finding out that many people have other priorities, and being excommunicated is not so terrible. It’s your problem, not ours.

The Pope is not God.

@Julia Marks - if you don’t remember wailing and gnashing of teeth after 4 more years of Bill Clinton, you weren’t hanging around pro-life Catholics.    Thanks to the internet, our voices are no longer silenced by the mainstream media and spineless (or worse) priests and bishops.  You no longer need to hang around us to hear our voices. 
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That said, as bad as Bill Clinton was on life issues, at least he didn’t try to deny Catholic employers the free exercise of their religion.

It kind of gives insight into how the Church-or some of the Church-went with the flow in the Third Reich.
To be countercultural is to be unpopular,uncomfortable, & at some point, sacrificial.
Being Catholic isn’t liberal or conservative,Democrat or GOP, it’s being faithful to Christ’s teachings.My guess is that if you feel comfortable in either political party, you probably shouldn’t.

@Fourmoreyrs: “FREEDOM TO PRACTICE YOUR RELIGION”....Our Catholic institutions are being forced to reject this freedom by issuing insurance that covers abortions, etc. which is against the Catholic Religion. [The Catholic Church wants the freedom to practice their religion and is not dictating what other religions or denominations should do}  So simple and some people on this blog just cannot seem to understand that. [or don’t want to]  More of the people ‘FOR’ Obamacare and against Catholic Beliefs should read about Hitler and what he imposed on the people…you all know about the persecution of the Jews, but there was much more. Read about Argentina’s dictator Perone and his control of the Catholic Church…sad.

You know, I am 85 yrs. old, not a religious scholar, a high school graduate and I can see so clearly where Obama is headed. Remember this” “you MUST buy health insurance ACCORDING TO WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD”. Think of this…Those working in Washington from the President on down will have the best coverage, along with the very rich… go down to a 25-35 thousand dollar a year family and just what kind of insurance will they be able to afford for the family?  MEDICAID! It is the entitlement they are complaining about now….just wait and see how big it gets.
Listen to the news today…how many more will Obama let go…most are his Chicago crowd…[WHY?].Oh, I forgot the States that approve marijuana…which leads to heavier drugs…which leads to mental problems. I know, it is in my family and in my friends family. I will make one more statement as I did once before:
If you really study the laws of the CC, given to us by God, you will see that it is for the betterment of humanity.  It is not easy, it is hard and sometimes hard to accept…but it is there. Let us follow God’s Laws and not the secular government….LET’S FIGHT FOR OUR FREEDOMS!
As to say we are already paying for abortion through other insurances…think..if we fought every insurance company about this, we WOULD be telling other people of other denominations/religion “how to live” and intruding on their freedom. We are fighting the government because the government is forcing rules on the CC on practices the Catholic Church does not believe in—and they do not have the RIGHT TO DO THAT.

@Kathleen - excellent point: Germany very happily elected a man they thought would bring great prosperity. History lessons are so very needed these days! Else we are bound to repeat that ugliness.

And I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that being comfortable with either party is a bad sign, because both parties have some serious skeletons in their closets. Closing the closet doesn’t make the skeletons go away, and voting for the correct candidate does not take away sins. A political leader who does some good does not cancel out evil.

Lord, have mercy on our benighted nation.

MaryS ,
Yes, someone said that History may not actually repeat, but it can rhyme.

OK - let’s do something! Write, call, your elected Representatives* - tell them you want a total freeze on ALL government hiring, no exceptions, no replacements for retirees, etc. Until budget is balanced.

results: Smaller government. Smaller government means less regulation (there have been over 6000 more regulations issued since 6 Nov - each new regulation requires someone to administer it - no new hires, less gov regulators, less ability to manage our lives, AND, most of all, reduced costs of government.

* a cynical comment - not much good in writing Senators - too many of them are bought and paid for by special interest lobbies - eventually we will have enough power to institute term limits and get rid of people like McConnell and Reid, who spend most of their time helping each other stay in power.

Deo et Patriae

I am weeping as I read this very uncharitable exchange between brothers and sisters in Christ.  There is true ignorance as displayed by some of the Pro Abortion Catholics who have posted comments here.  The response is to name call, berate, and belittle the ignorant.  We will not win Catholics over to the treasure and beauty of our Catholic faith by acting like the haters Obama voters have reduced us to.  Conquer evil with good.  Don’t stoop to its level.  Rebuke the sinner (in charity and truth.)  If he/she is not willing to hear the truth, then let them go in their errors.  Pray for their conversion.  It is much more gratifying to slam them with an insult or put down, I know.  I have been on my knees since Election night when I realized that Catholics actually voted to continue Obama’s reign of terror.  It has really become a challenge of the first order to live in charity with those whom we disagree with politically.  Still struggling with the consequences this election will deal to all of us, even those of us who didn’t choose this.  I need to work harder at becoming the person God created me to be.  I need to take up my cross and follow Jesus.

@Kathlee: Agree abt. feeling comfortable with either party & one shouldn’t.  That is what I meant by Party Person. Vote Party, no matter what, instead of looking into the type of person running. Also as to Hitler, unfortunately when my children were in Catholic H.S., they never got to WWII because they did not have time and the same for the Public Schools, which was a shame because my husband was in WWII and could have taught/helped them with some things. Same thing with my Argentinian friend who grew up under Perone. My son had a religion teacher, Theologian, graduate from Notre Dame, who was telling them to burn the flag, etc.  The nut did not know my Pastor was on the board and I sure did complain and he was not hired the next yr. Those were the times when we were in church, raised our right hands, and took the Oath To The Legion of Decency. That too is no longer done.
@Michael: you are right abt. writing our Representatives….When I lived in N.C. by Rep. was Sue Myrick and she fights hard against Sharia and many other things. Now my Representative is a Catholic, in fact a member of my Church, so you can bet I shall write to him…I voted for him.

@Susan: “There is true ignorance as displayed by some of the Pro Abortion Catholics who have posted comments here.  The response is to name call, berate, and belittle the ignorant.”
For one Susan: There are no ignorant people on this blog…they are people who have their own opinions, which is as American as it can be. We are not berating the person of Obama or Romney, but what they stand for in the political world.
I also do not believe that ALL the people on this blog are Catholic, for all Catholics know that God is Pro-Life…just from knowing the Ten Commandments: Thou Shalt Not Kill. Yes, I know there are Catholics who are Pro-abortion, who prefer to believe everything from their point of view.
You would be surprised at what people learn from the different opinions posted on this blog. No one is forced to post or read it.

Sue—at 85 years old, you have no idea how young people are living today. Your high time is at least 30 years earlier than most. “Father Knows Best” doesn’t apply any more.
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The president favors women’s health over religious dogma. That is your problem. If Catholics don’t like it, they can leave. If they prefer to have Social Security, they have to compromise. There seem to be enough Catholics willing to do so.

The Church can evangelize, but it cannot politicize in the U.S. The U.S. Constitution was created so that no one religion can trump everything else. Thankfully, prayer has no effect on the outcome.

Sue (old) ,
Keep the Faith & God bless you!
:)

@fourmoreyearsofobama - Catholics can leave what?  The country? 
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Of course, I’d prefer to get back the many thousands of dollars my husband and I have paid into the social security system, but as it is, we assume it is a tax that goes down a giant black hole with all our other taxes every quarter.  We figure by the time we’re ready to retire, SS will be means tested and only the poorest and most unprepared will get it.  And if you’re smart, you will too.
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What if I don’t want the country to provide every little thing for me?  What if I’d rather rely on my family, friends, and community?  How can you not mind the government dictating private decisions?  Do you like being told what to do and how to do it?

Catholics that voted for Obama=Abortion, gay marriage, are Catholics that are either ignorant of what Obama stands for or they do not have their conscience well formed according with Catholic teachings, they also might be non practicing Catholics or might not care. 
I talked to one person, Spanish speaking Catholic and she told me she thought Obama was going to give money away, hard to believe she thought that.  But we the practicing Catholics that are in accordance and in communion with the church teachings we should be charitable and keep on praying for the success of the church against Obamacare and lets keep on praying for the United States of America.

@fourmore years:  I’m guessing you are the “insulting one” Susan spoke about.
You insinuate that because I am 85, I don’t know the world as it is. [I am 30 yrs too old?]..I am really laughing at you, you are so ridiculous in your beliefs. Get it through your head, YOUNG MAN/WOMAN…..the Catholic church IS NOT telling anyone of any other denomination/religion, or non-religious, not to use their conscience about abortion or contraceptives, etc….they are just saying that NO CATHOLIC INSTITUTION SHOULD BE FORCED TO OFFER HEALTH INSURANCE THAT ALSO PAYS FOR ABORTIONS, CONTRACEPTIVES, ETC. IT IS AGAINST THE BELIEFS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND AGAINST OUR FREEDOM TO PRACTICE OUR RELIGION. How many times do I and many others on this blog have to tell it as it is.
“If Catholics don’t like it they can leave?  Leave where, the U.S….you have to be kidding! My husband fought in 5 battles during WWII for people like you to have the freedom you have. I did not PREFER TO HAVE SOCIAL SECURITY..it was forced on us by the Democrat Party, who are now complaining there is no money ;o(  There is lack of money because the government chose to take it out of the investment fund and put it in the general fund for any State to use as they wished. My husband paid into the Social Security fund for the 40 yrs. he worked, besides putting his life on the line in WWII [101st Paratrooper] so that people such as you can have your freedom to insult others. My husband died at age 62 and never rec’d a SS check.  YOU JUST ABSOLUTELY DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Do you want me to go into the low morals of YOU YOUNG PEOPLE.  To you sex is a fun activity….if it feels good so it.  You have no idea what responsibility is. If you are REALLY A CATHOLIC ON THIS CATHOLIC BLOG, THEN YOU OUGHT TO LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR RELIGION….OTHERWISE GET OFF THIS BLOG!
By the way “being pregnant is not an illness..I know because would you believe that this old lady was pregnant twice?”  Yes, some have problems but most don’t. That is why we have doctors. Also contraceptives have their side effects, if you want to take the chance, take it.  If you are a man, then you are throwing the responsibility on the woman. You should watch a film on abortion and how babies are killed. As my old generation would say:  YOU ARE STILL WET BEHIND THE EARS. and P.S. I take NOTHING FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND LIVE ONLY ON MY HUSBAND SOCIAL SECURITY…because I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR MYSELF!

“And he showed us the face of care and concern for the least of these.  Just as Jesus has taught us.” - so Jesus is for aborting babies? - this type of thinking is what’s wrong with Catholics.  The blood of the innocents is on our hands. 

I agree with the comment about the bishops.  Pat, I do write my bishop about my concerns and nothing happens.  I feel like a troublemaker. That being said, I agree with your article.

Eileen, I’m sure if you wanted to give your social security checks to the government and be supported by your family, it will be happy to take it back. I don’t think you gave a very good analogy.
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Sue (old) You are free to practice your religion—you’re just not free to make everybody else practice your religion. Playing the victim does not ring true with the most prominent evangelists because they live pretty well on the support of their “flock.”
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What about people who don’t have a family wealthy enough to support them? Are they supposed to starve because you don’t want taxes to go to welfare services?
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You’d be surprised how many people are willing to compromise their religion when faced with poverty and starvation.

How do you think your husband got Social Security?

Sue—you are an old lady but you are not God. Stop acting like you know better than everyone else.
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There was a lot more time in human history before the year 1 C.E. Christianity is responsible for the destruction of many past religions, and certainly did not show any respect for the lives of the unborn children of pagan women.
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To Everything There is a Season—maybe it’s time for the Catholic Church to die out, as did many others thanks to Christian warriors.

to Sue (old): this is great that you are expressing yourself in the computer, when I read you are 85 I was surprised, I work as a caregiver, most of the 85 year old people do not do what you are doing usually we the caregivers have to take care of them, you are great!, keep it up!, and do not worry, we know we are in God’s side. Let’s keep on praying.  God Bless You!!!

@Mary
I lol’d when you were surprised by Sue(old) using the computer and being an active voice in the community.  Sue has more skill, sense and understanding than most of us.

@fourmoreyearsofobama
Most of us are laughing at you.
You have no idea what you are talking about with random blurting about the pope not being God and Sue not being God.
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Your line about favoring women’s health over religious dogma.
- You sound like Charlie McCarthy, maybe a little wooden.
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What is that line and the bleating about who is God supposed to mean?
Maybe you can explain it to all of us?

Posted by Rob on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2012 6:00 PM (EDT):@fourmoreyearsofobama
Most of us are laughing at you.”
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Rob,
On a Christian site we should be praying for folk, not laughing at them.If the site moderators decide posts are bullying or offensive, I guess they can remove them.
Glad to see Miss Sue posting here.
God bless.

@Kathleen
I know I’m sorry, my sides just hurt sooo much.
@fourmore
I am praying for you.  God bless you.

fourmore years: “Sue (old) You are free to practice your religion—you’re just not free to make everybody else practice your religion. Playing the victim does not ring true with the most prominent evangelists because they live pretty well on the support of their “flock.”
4 more: My answer to you, as I stated above: you are not reading my right:
“The Catholic church IS NOT telling anyone of any other denomination/religion, or non-religious, to use their conscience about abortion or contraceptives, etc….[use your conscience the way you want] they are just saying that NO CATHOLIC INSTITUTION SHOULD BE FORCED TO OFFER HEALTH INSURANCE THAT ALSO PAYS FOR ABORTIONS, CONTRACEPTIVES, ETC. IT IS AGAINST THE BELIEFS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND AGAINST OUR FREEDOM TO PRACTICE OUR RELIGION.”
Also I support myself, all by myself and live by myself and I am not playing “old lady God”. I take care of myself financially.  I just stated what the Catholic Church’s Beliefs are. Take is or leave it..that is fully your own business.
I did not say I wanted people to starve and did not want my taxes to go to welfare service.  We are not even talking about the poor…we are talking about abortions.  You are all over the place, therefore, I am not answering you anymore…and if you don’t like this blog….go to another one on social justice, which we are not talking about….Again, we are talking about abortions which is against my Catholic Church and if you want to do as you please, do so.
Why can’t you understand what I said.

@Rob,Mary & others: Thanks for the support. I have been on my own since age 58, when my husband, who was on Hospice, died. [1985,buried him 12/23/85]. Then started working in the Hospice office. It would take me pages to tell all of you how God has worked in my life, during my husband’s illness and since then. Yes, I do know what I am talking about, not only because I was taught 8 yrs by Nuns in grade school, but also as an adult, volunteered in the Rectory and was always active in school and Church. I do know most, from my experiences. How can anyone not know how the world is today, as long as they have a computer. I even found my parents passage here..Mom when she was 10yrs old with her family and also my Dad’s when he was 21. Ellis Island.com. I would put my grandfather’s name on the search line and there were many with his name. Fortunately, I was a very inquisitive child and would ask my Mom about her family, etc., so I had enough information to eventually find their passage, along with the ship’s manifest, the ship’s name and picture. It was the most exciting thing I ever did on the internet.
By the way “four more” [if you are reading this]. I took a secretarial course in H.S. and I was able to type 80 words a minute on the old—really old fashioned typewriter.  ;o)  I use my computer as one would the encyclopedia.
I really erupted in my message to “four more”  above, didn’t I….well, my maiden name is “Somma”.. look up Mount Somma on the internet.. Vesuvius grew out of it and there is one wall remaining. So I guess you can say Mount Somma erupted again. ;o)  “Experience is the best Teacher”

@fourmoreyearsofobama is an atheist. He has been deceived by Satan and his army of followers, the Democrats. He is a fool. Obama is spending money that HIS generation will have to pay back. Obama is seeing that the selfish Baby Boomers (me) get all they ask for at HIS generations expense/future.
As for Sue(old)- you are great! You certainly were part of “The Greatest Generation”. As for me, I am part of the most selfish, self-centered and morally lacking generation that has ever existed in America- the Baby Boomers. Far too many of us spent our youth high on drugs and engaged in promiscuous sex and it shows. Materialism is our God.
God help us. 

Pat, all your articles for the past few months have been spot on.  Thank you for writing this.  Though it was Christians of all denominations that helped w/ President Obama’s victory, numerous Catholics put him over the top.

What I am concerned most about is: 1) the redefinition of marriage to accept same sex relationships that defies Romans Chapter One.  2) more abortions in the US and since it’s a big industry, throughout the world 3) the continuing erosion of our Constitutional rights, such as the First Amendment.

Sadly, at Mass on Sunday, most parishes around my area just preach a social justice gospel.  It’s not the same Gospel of Jesus Christ that Peter preached or Paul wrote of in his New Testament letters.  If there’s any good news here, it’s that the Roman Catholic church regarding moral matters has not yet gone apostate, as have so many of the mainline non-Catholic Protestat denominations.

God is still on His throne, and He sees all.  About the (one?) bishop that wrote to his flock that a vote for a candidate that promotes ungodly practices (such as same sex marriage & abortion), a man I know brought that letter to his Catholic men’s prayer group, where 90% of these Catholic men voted for Obama.

When they heard that the bishop wrote that God will judge their actions, by giving support to death and sodomy, the men were surprised, and said something like, “But we’re Catholic.  We believe in Jesus and He died for our sins.  We won’t be judged for this.”

So that means priests need to be teaching God’s word, in its fullness, all of the New Testament, including Paul’s letters- like Romans Chapter 1.

The Catholic insurance companies have a choice—just like the Catholic Charities adoption agencies—they can refuse to insure catholic hospitals and other health care institutions who hire non-catholic workers. Regulate Catholic hospitals to accept only pro-life Catholic patients. Check employee’s medical records and fire them if there is any history of prescribed contraception or a history of an abortion.
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Or you can have Catholic hospitals refuse federal funding. It’s only money.

@fourmore: even if Catholic hospitals refuse federal funding, that won’t be enough to satisfy the HHS mandate.

And, of course, forcing Catholic institutions to only hire and serve Catholics is not only unconstitutional, but it is inhumane, and is in direct opposition to our religious beliefs - so that, too, is trampling on our religious freedom. We cannot shut down - that would weigh on our consciences, too, because 1 out of every 8 hospital visits is at a Catholic institution - most of them in poorer neighborhoods (which no one will buy). Sso there is no way to not violate our consciences. That is an unjust law, if there ever was one!

Don’t you see what you are spelling out? The gov’t forcing its values on to Catholic institutions - in clear violation of the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, not to mention the Hyde amendment.

How can you be so gung-ho supportive of that kind of law breaking? Especially when it’s just for free contraceptives. (I mean, it’s not like it’s about saving lives.) Are you not aware that, once they’ve established the precedent, they’ll be able to take any freedom they want from anyone they want? Even from you?

Imagine when they shut down your computer. Or take away some other thing/freedom/right that you value. Maybe contraceptives…?

Then, assuming you can comprehend that and you have a conscience or some kind of compassion for other human beings, maybe you’ll be able to see why Catholics are fighting to hold on to the freedoms we’ve always had - that are guaranteed by law - that the Obama administration has trampled.

4more, obviously you are not Catholic, it looks like you hate and/or dislike Catholics and/or hate or dislike religion, and/or you like to cause trouble. I do not understand what are u doing here. Isn’t there any other place where you can fit with your views and be happier.

But then again this thread would not have been with so many replies if you would not been here causing trouble.
God bless

@Mary:” Most people you are caregiver to do not do this on the computer.” I spoke of all the blessing God has given me. One is I am not on any medication, so far though I do have a few problems that go along with old age. Yes, I have been Blessed. As I mentioned before, I was always good with the typewriter, in fact I am not good with one finger typing as some people do on their i-pads, etc. When I started to work for Hospice after 35 yrs of not working {just a housewife ;o)] I had an old typewriter, then they bought me a new one and then a computer. I hated the computer and called it HUGO after hurricane Hugo that had been in N.C. where my children lived. Anyway I finally learned “Word” and typed all the manuals and letters, etc. besides manning the phone. I knew how to talk with people whose family member was dying. Then I moved to Virginia and volunteered at Hospice there with no pay, doing the same thing. I am an advocate of Hospice. I also volunteered in the Church office, our Pastor had no one there, he did it all. [very small church] One day he asked me to type a Baptism service in Spanish for a couple whose baby was to be baptized..he asked if I could and I said, Yes.  Well, I looked at the paper and I froze. It was the first time I truly realized that I typed words and sentences and since I could not understand Spanish, I just could not do it….  so I typed the whole thing one letter at a time.  ;o)
Yes, I like my computer…there is so much info on it. I read newspapers from other States I lived in [especially the obits] ;o)  I keep up with long distance family members in other states through Facebook. [nieces/nephews] I have been Blessed so many, many times over the past yrs. since my husband died. I still miss him.

And, of course, forcing Catholic institutions to only hire and serve Catholics is not only unconstitutional, but it is inhumane, and is in direct opposition to our religious beliefs - so that, too, is trampling on our religious freedom. We cannot shut down - that would weigh on our consciences, too, because 1 out of every 8 hospital visits is at a Catholic institution - most of them in poorer neighborhoods (which no one will buy). Sso there is no way to not violate our consciences. That is an unjust law, if there ever was one!
Don’t you see what you are spelling out? The gov’t forcing its values on to Catholic institutions - in clear violation of the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, not to mention the Hyde amendment.
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Catholics institutions wouldn’t be forced to hire non-Catholics—they just won’t get federal support. That way you won’t have to take government money that will be put towards “evil” government laws. Government is responsible for healthcare, not your conscious.
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If the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 2012 passes, and that is a BIG “if,” I will be disappointed, but Obama probably wouldn’t sign it at the expense of the Affordable Health Care Act and Obamacare, and it’s doubtful there will be enough votes to override his veto. You’re wasting your breath and your money.
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The Church will have to separate itself completely from the U.S, and federal funding if it won’t comply with federal law.
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If the HHS mandate is an “unjust law,” you have to bring it to the Supreme Court, not to the President or Congress.
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The bishops have portrayed the Obama Administration’s decision to require most employers to cover contraception without copays as an all-out attack on Catholicism and conscience rights. In shouting this from the pulpit, they are threatening to drown out the voice of the majority of Catholics who believe that women should be able to access birth control using their company’s health insurance.
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http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/

@Sue 85, Your story is great, I am happy for you that you can keep in contact with your family and friends thru the computer, I will be talking about you with my patients tomorrow, believe me you are the only 85 year young that I know that is active in the computer, I hope that when I am your age I will be doing as good as you are doing, God bless you Sue!!! and you are NOT Sue “old” you are Sue 85 YOUNG :)

Sue(old) is not alone, though I do feel she is exceptional. My mother is 84, and has active online since back before is was the world wide web: she was on CompuServe in the mid-1980’s, using a new dial-up modem and PC she’d had for years for word processing - running DOS. That was before Windows - before the mouse - before graphics: just text. Yes: text on the Internet, with hyperlinks - but no graphics. She transitioned (with complaints) to Windows 3.1, then (more complaints) to Windows 98 (wisely skipping Win95 completely) and is now happily using Windows 7, but dreading Windows 8. Sadly, she left the Faith a few years ago, and I’m prayer for her return. But, like Sue, she is self-sufficient financially (thank God) and is, like Sue, an inspiration to younger people (everyone under 70).  ;-)  God bless you, Sue, and all seniors who keep up with new technology to stay in touch and know what’s going on in the world!

Over in Saudi Arabia, women cannot travel alone without a specific form or an electronic authorization. This ban is only lifted when a woman turns 45. Women under 45 must either travel with a husband or father or else hold a permission form signed by a male guardian.
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Recently, an online travel authorization system was initiated in which the male guardian can make these arrangements less bureaucratic. Many male family members are understanding and allow the women in their families full freedom in leaving or entering the country. However, a good proportion of society views freedom of mobility for women as something that could lead to immorality and thus strictly forbid women in their home from leaving the house, let alone the country.
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In Saudi Arabia there are no specific statutes or laws to govern by. The sole constitution that is used is the Quran, which all judges have to interpret conservatively. Many actions that are considered illegal have no actual written laws to ban them – a lot of them are not even addressed in the Quran. Some of these bans also occur in other countries. The general rule in regards to the legality of something is that if it is suspected to be “haram” (forbidden or clashing with Islamic law or may lead people astray from Islam) then suspicion alone is grounds for banning it.
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That is government by the conscious of religious leaders.

4more: By that, are you trying to say that allowing the Church to continue in the freedoms that it has enjoyed for 230+ years will, somehow, magically turn the U.S. into something different from what it has been during those 230 years?

Are you completely unaware that the Catholic did nothing at all - it has not changed? Rather, it is the Obama administration that has suddenly changed the rules, forcing the Church to bow to its values. All so that you can have free contraceptives.

That’s right, Mr. Washington, Mr. Franklin, Mr. Adams, and all you Founding Fathers, and all veterans who gave your lives for freeom over these 230+ years: that’s right! You gave it all so people like 4moreyears can have sex with no consequences. The epitome of freedom = free stuff for free sex!

Pathetic. I am ashamed of people who would tear down the Church for that. Even Judas got a bag of silver coins - something that had, at least, some recognizable value.

Lord, have mercy on us! Send forth Your Spirit and renew the face of this country. Crack open the hardened hearts and pour into them Your Grace. Open the eyes of those so blinded by sin that they cannot recognize Your Truth anymore. Help them to see beyond their own selfishness to the only One Who can fulfill their deepest longings. Lord, help us to help them, that they might come to know You. I ask this in the Name that is above all other names: Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.

I didn’t vote for Obama…in fact I did not vote for ANY Democrat so it’s not me. I may be a problem adult, but not this time. In Massachusetts the only saving grace is that Question Number 2 (physician assisted suicide) was denied.

second term -

And now, the unraveling… the spiraling into darkness.
But let the servants of the LORD come forth in great strength, the army of Light (of Love).

Can you tell me why anyone would be voting for Bush 2 times ?? What did he do in 8 Years ??

At Mary & MaryS: Thanks for the compliment and I wish MaryS’s Mom was my neighbor/friend…I worked at Hospice 7 yrs, using the computer..I did not get my own until 2009. I would never want to live “in my own little world” as some seniors do. Just talking with all of you on this blog, keeps me in touch with the outside world and not just my little community. I even hear from people in other countries. To little ole me..that is magical. My first memory of a phone, was on the wall and the number was 790-R. I don’t remember any others. Party line. We had one small table top radio, all six kids sitting around it listening to the “The Lone Ranger”. [The Waltons] I remember the first Birds Eye frozen food and thought “how awful that must be to eat” because my Dad owned a Produce Store..fresh vegetables-I was used to. You know, I have lived in NY,Penna,W.Va.,Va. NC & SC and I have always had an elderly friend/neighbor [before I became elderly]. To me, they were so interesting to converse with. I loved hearing of the past. Now I am friends with a WWII Vet on the internet from N.C. and I am always asking him questions that I did not think to ask my husband. My older sister also uses the computer and she has Macular Degeneration. What she can’t read, she copies and puts it on her “reading machine” [don’t know what the machine is called]. She listens/“reads” her books that she gets from the Library of Congress. Much is done for the blind or near blind. No cost, which is good.
@KGBauer: Why is it that Democrats always have to bring “Pres.Bush” up in order to compliment/or excuse, Pres.Obama. Obama has to rely on his own record, not Pres.Bush’s. Sounds so “adolescent” to me, to blame Bush. Obama does the same thing, always speaking of what he was left with from the previous administration. “Pres. Obama, that is why you were hired”, so do the job without acting like a juvenile and if you can’t, leave.”  That is what any employee would be told and we must all remember that Washington works for US and our taxes pay their salaries.

Sue—Yes, I am saying that giving in to the Catholic Church on health issues regulated by the United States Constitution will set a precedent that will change the direction and behavior of our country. The Church doesn’t change, and that is it’s problem.
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News just came out about an Irish woman who was miscarring over 3-4 days was refused a therapeutic abortion, contracted septicemia and died.
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http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/1114/world/mother-dies-as-termination-is-refused-213952.html
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This is hardly the first time a woman was denied a therapeutic abortion from a Catholic hospital, but there was no neutral hospital where she could have her pregnancy terminated.
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Guess what—many families don’t like it when something like this happens. There will be consequences against the hosptial and its Catholic policies.
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People are dying because the Church does not change.

Whatever does not adapt to a new climate will eventually become extinct.

4mor said:
“Whatever does not adapt to a new climate will eventually become extinct.”

Oh that’s good! I’ll add that as my tagline on my mensa forum!

4more: The story of one Irish woman’s death - while tragic - is no reason to change the teachings of the Church. Changing Irish hospitals to do more to save the lives of sick people would be a far more logical conclusion. It isn’t the teachings of the Church that killed her, but inept medical practices.

Furthermore, your assertion that the Church must change is laughable. God does not change. Truth does not change. The purpose of the Church is to teach these unchanging truths to the world: to change the world. To bring hearts to Christ, not change Christ’s teachings to match what the current culture says it wants.

If you want a church that changes with the times - a house built on the shifting sands of current trends - join a protestant church. I’m sure you’ll be much happier there, because you can believe whatever you want!

As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord, and adhere to the wisdom guaranteed by the Holy Spirit’s guidance of the One True Church established by Jesus Christ - built on the Rock of Peter, who was given the Keys to the Kingdom. Our Lord promised that the gates of Hell will never prevail against His Church, and I thank God that I am so blessed to belong to this beautiful Church!

But aren’t you afraid that you might miss out on something by fighting against the only human institution to outlast every major empire? Aren’t you concerned that you might… you know… end up in the smoking section for all of eternity? Maybe you should reconsider. Repent, and believe, that you might be saved. May God have mercy on you and lead you to all Truth.

“Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”—Proverbs 16:18
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“The purpose of the Church is to teach these unchanging truths to the world: to change the world. To bring hearts to Christ, not change Christ’s teachings to match what the current culture says it wants.”
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THE PURPOSE OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION IS TO HEAL THE SICK AND SAVE LIVES. THOSE CATHOLIC PHYSICIANS AND CHURCHES MURDERED THAT WOMAN BY WITHHOLDING TREATMENT, IN THE NAME OF THEIR ‘FAITH.”
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I suppose you would support people who murder abortion providers.
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Your death is not one I would consider tragic. One less arrogant prostelizing Catholic bullsh*ter will make this world a better place.

MaryS—
I don’t know which “Mary” wrote the above comment, but she is essentially correct. Physicians are bound first by the Hippocratic Oath, not their religion. If they put their Church first, they should not be practicing medicine—or at least not practice anything to do with obstetrics and gynecology.
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I also agree that it is nothing less than murder to withhold a therapeutic abortion when a woman has no where else to go for proper treatment. I hope the physicians who refused her are charged with murder/manslaughter and loose their licenses. I hope a good-sized wrongful death lawsuit will close the business of that hospital and that it becomse a government or private hospital that has no connections with any religion.
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And I agree with Dawkins on this one—Church policies are the cause of death for thousands of women, homosexuals, and poor populations because it put’s its own will above the welfare of human beings. The Pope should be made to account for himself and the Vatican to the Haig.

The details surrounding this case are unclear, but what is often overlooked in discussion of difficult situations like this one is that the Catholic Church supports the Principle of Double Effect, that is (as applied here), if the child in the womb should die as a result of treatment given to the mother, that would not be considered an abortion.  One is thus free (and even encouraged) to treat a woman/mother in need.  If the child dies, it is a result of the treatment and not the intentional taking of a human life.

Are you kidding me?  This thread is still going?
To fourmoreyears:
50 MILLION dead babies vs. a handful of women who die because an abortion was not performed.
What about all of those women who were KILLED during an ABORTION?
Hmmm…
I’m tellin you…B.O. supporters clearly see only what they want to see.  It’s like talking to a brick wall.
Listen to yourself:  “People are dying because the Church does not change”.
Now listen to this:  “Babies are dying because the government does not change”
And this:  “Babies will live because the Church does not change.”
Goodbye 4moreyears.  You are so confused.
Adapting to the new climate of “abortion and contraceptives for all” = extinction, silly.

So, I could leave you to die in a gutter without calling 911 and I’d get off because my religion dictates it is wrong to call 911 under those circumstances? And it would be a good defense if I did help other people by calling 911 when they weren’t in a gutter?
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Also, the HHS mandate does not include abortion—only contraceptives. It is a Catholic fallacy that contraception is a form of abortion.
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The nun who used the “double effect” principle when she allowed the abortion for the woman at St. Josephs was excommunicated, and St. Joseph itself is no longer a Catholic hospital..
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The woman in Ireland was not Irish or Catholic, and she acquired septicemia because they made her wait for the fetus to die “naturally,” which caused the fetus to become infected and pass the infection into the mother’s blood. If the fetus had been removed in time, she would not have acquired septicemia and died.
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More over, even if the Catholic physicians and hospital administration considered the “double effect” principle, they decided not to end the pregnancy that was killing the woman and are therefore responsible for an unnecessary death.
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Two lives were destroyed—one by God and the other by so-called physicians who betrayed the Hippocratic Oath for their religion. You would not allow this under any other circumstances.
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It’s so easy to side with the Church when someone far away whom you never met is killed because she was refused medical help based on the religion of the only people capable of helping her. If it happens to some one you know, please comment.

That post by “Mary” at 9:26 was not by me. I don’t think I could ever say that another person’s death is not tragic. And I don’t see arrogance in quoting Church doctrine. The doctrines are facts, so they shouldn’t upset you any more than other facts, like 2+2=4. And if you don’t like Church doctrine, then please leave the Church. This isn’t arrogance. If you don’t like playing chess, you leave the chess club. Same concept.

4more: Obamacare does, indeed, include abortion. Most people will be paying directly for abortion. It’s called the “abortion premium” - google it for details.

And abortion-inducing drugs are also included in the HHS mandate: the morning-after pill & week-after pill. That’s why it isn’t just Catholics (who oppose contraceptives), but also Evangelicals and Baptists (who are OK with contraceptives) that are suing to get out from under that violation of their core beliefs. Because those post-conception zygote-killing drugs are clearly not contraceptives: they work after conception to prevent that growing, separate, individual with its own unique DNA from implanting, developing, having a birthday or ever growing up to say “I love you Mommy!”. And many people find it unethical to terminate that little one’s chances at ever enjoying ice cream and sunshine and stubbed toes and kittens and posting their thoughts in comboxes.

As for me and my house, we’re fond of people, especially kids, so we vote No on Obamacare. We will not comply. And we support the Bishops’ efforts to win us back the religious freedom that was deliberately taken from us… all so that some women could get free stuff that their boyfriends should be able to afford, if they can’t, themselves.

As to the woman who died in Ireland recently: the investigation is under way. The media doesn’t have sufficient information at this point, but that hasn’t stopped the pro-abortion activists from claiming things as 4more has done here.

One thing is clear, though: Irish law does NOT in any way prohibit intervention that might terminate the pregnancy if the mother’s life is truly threatened. Such is the case everywhere, because ectopic pregnancies are life-threatening, and common enough to have had laws proctecting doctors for many, many years. Everywhere.

According to reports, this woman’s case was a miscarriage-in-progress, so the doctors would have been 100% in the clear for taking more aggressive action - aborting the pregnancy - knowing that the baby was already dead/dying. It is not clear why they did not take such action.

IOWs: the Irish law banning abortion had no impact on this woman’s tragic death, unless it was mis-applied. That is called medical malpractice, and it can happen anywhere, no matter what the laws allow.

Ireland has an enviable record for women’s health in pregnancy and childbirth. That doesn’t mean the doctor(s) who first treated this poor women were infallible, of course.

Let us pray for her immortal soul, and for her husband, family, and friends in this terrible time of their grief.

More info: http://www.lifenews.com/2012/11/14/ireland-lack-of-abortion-didnt-kill-woman-pro-life-groups-say/

MaryS—you are trying to baffle me with bulls**t because you have no facts. It’s difficult to shoot down so many bullocks shot at once.
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Who are you to say that one life is less important than others? Would you kill your mother, your sister, or your daughter to save a stranger? How many people will you kill to “save” fetuses who will never be born anyway?
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Would you accept the fact that your mother, sister, daughter, was left to die in agony because it was against the religious belief of a person, perfectly capable of saving her, to do anything?
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Your religion really is a “chess club” and not everyone can or even wants to “play chess” with you. The medical profession is obligated to save the life and well-being of a mother.
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Everything else you wrote is just conservative right-wing religious bullsh*t. You demand other people make sacrifices that you would never make yourself and have no empathy for humanity.
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You make me physically sick.

The Falsehood That Everyone “Will Be Forced To Pay A Dollar A Month To Cover Abortion On Your Insurance Policy”
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Limbaugh’s claim that “you now will be forced to pay a dollar a month to cover abortion on your insurance policy,” is simply not true.
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The reason that the surcharge for abortion coverage exists at all is to make sure that federal money is not spent on abortion. Federal law bans the use of any federal funds for abortion except in cases of rape, incest, or where the life of the woman is in danger. The Affordable Care Act maintains that ban. Plans that cover abortion must charge enrollees an additional fee for abortion and keep those funds separate to ensure that no federal money is paid for abortion.
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Moreover, people do not even have to choose a plan that covers abortion. The Affordable Care Act specifically says that in any health care exchanges that are established, there must be “at least one ... plan that does not provide coverage” for abortions. Therefore, a person who receives insurance through the exchanges can choose either a plan that covers abortion or one that does not. If the person chooses a plan that does not cover abortion, he or she does not pay a surcharge for abortion. Again, the regulations do nothing to change this provision.
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Right-Wing Invents “$1 Abortions”

With respect to the right-wing media’s claim about the impact of the Affordable Care Act on how much abortions cost, the Affordable Care Act does not set a price for abortions. Section 1303 of the Affordable Care Act states that insurance plans can cover abortions in cases of rape and incest and in cases where the life of the pregnant woman is in danger.
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If an insurance plan chooses to cover abortion in other situations as well, it must charge an additional fee for this coverage. The Health and Human Services secretary determines the cost of this fee based “an average actuarial basis” for the entire population covered. But the cost of this fee may not take into account any cost savings that result from abortions, such as those resulting from a decrease in “prenatal care, delivery, or postnatal care.” No matter what the actuarial estimates are, the fee shall not be “less than $1 per enrollee, per month.” The regulations do nothing to change this provision.
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In other words, private insurance companies that choose to cover abortions must overestimate the costs of abortion (since they are not allowed to take into account any cost reductions that result from abortion coverage). If this overestimate turns out to be less than $1 per month per enrollee, insurers still must charge enrollees $1 per month.
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http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/03/15/right-wing-media-helps-health-reform-law-oppone/184882
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4more: I never said a word about deciding who lives and who dies, or who’s life is more important. In point of fact, I value every life - I truly believe that every person has infinite dignity and value, because God doesn’t make mistakes. Your anger confuses me, because all I did was report that the poor Irish woman’s death appears to be due to malpractice. Why does that make you so angry?

As for the abortion premium: If my employer’s health plan includes abortion coverage, I will be forced to subsidize abortions. There is no opt-out. http://www.alliancedefendingfreedom.org/content/docs/facts/ObamaCare-and-its-Mandates.pdf

—-

But I am finding it very curious that you grow more angry with each post. This time, you referred to Catholicism as “your religion” when addressing me, which implies that it is not your faith at all. How odd, then, that you are here at this Catholic web site. Back to my chess club analogy: Why are you here? Why not go find a church/group that makes you happy… before your physical sickness reaction to my alleged lack of compassion (for which there is no evidence) drives you to an early grave? Why rail against the Church (the longest-lasting institution ever) and the truths that it has been teaching for nearly 2000 years (that it cannot change, because Truth doesn’t change), when you could join with others who think like you do and meet with your approval?

Go in peace. I am sincere in my prayers for you to find true peace.

“For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God” (John 3:20-21).

AMEN.

MaryS—I use the term “your religion” to make the question general. Substitute the term “Catholic religion” will only set you off on telling me that it’s not Catholic teaching to leave some-one in the gutter, which would be off my point.
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You’re starting the old canard of “if you’re not Catholic, why are you visiting a Catholic site” Soon you will be calling me a troll and not answering me at all. It’s used by everyone here when they cannot answer the ethical and moral defense of the Church cover up of child-abusing clergy, lying about the effectiveness of condoms in preventing the spread of HIV, letting a woman die because a therapeutic abortion is against Church decree, or the abortion of twin embryos from a 9-year-old child who was raped by her step-father.
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The young woman who came to Ireland with her husband to start a family was denied treatment because of Catholic religion, which should have had no part in the medical profession if it means endangering a woman’s life by waiting for her diseased, toxic fetus, that her own body is trying to expel, die from whatever is killing it.
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It is indefensible to allow any religion to interfere with medical decision. It was a wrongful death, murder by intentional neglect.
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I’m getting angry because it’s frustrating that I can’t get a straight answer from you. You keep dodging the question of whether you would accept the same malfeasance from a hospital if it was your daughter, sister, mother, or friend, and she died the same way. Would you prefer to morn your the death of your grandchild and your daughter for the sake the Church?
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There are Church policies that have to be changed because they contradict medical practice and people get sick and die. It should admit that the Church is wrong in its “infallible” decrees and change.

The theology you put forward is not new to me. It is a smart way to put God in a safe place whatever the outcome will be. If something good happens to us, God gets credits for it. If something bad comes to us, it is due to our wrong exercise of free will. If bad outcomes occurs due to our own actions, then logically, good outcomes should also be due to our own actions.
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Who are you to say the death of Savita Halappanavar is simply tragic, but no reason to change Catholic ideology? If the hospital changes its practices, it would no longer be a Catholic hospital, according to Catholic theology.
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The government of Ireland is being quick to explain that it does allow termination of a non-viable fetus under the circumstances of Mrs. Halappanavar. This will make the Catholic theology of the hospital and it’s obstetric physicians more responsible for the outcome of her needless death.
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I hope it will be a landmark case, establishing that religion will not suffice as a legal defense in medical decisions—abortion, and assisted suicides—in patients that will die in any case.
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It should be interesting.

The Founders of our country were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature’s God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity.
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Learn your history.

Lambert (The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholic.

4fouryears: You’re incorrect as usual. Learn your history rather than the just the revisionist regurgitation of talking points. Not that it matters or you would care in the least but there were only 2 that could be, maybe, classified as “deist”. Jefferson and Franklin…and that is also in dispute. As to the others there was one Catholic, Carrol, and the rest were overwhelmingly Christian…to the point that there were 29 signers that had attended a seminary and of which 26 were ordained ministers of one congregation or another at one time or the other. The founding documents deeply reflect Christian/Judeo principles throughout. The Pilgrims fled England because of religious persecution. etc, etc ad infinitum. It’s not an accident that the first amendment specifically covers freedom of speech and “freedom of religion”...not the claptrap “freedom from religion”. Reason? The first amendment protects the citizens from State (Government) mandating/imposing/enforcing a “religion”..as in “Sharia Law” or Church of England during the time when the Pilgrims fled England. Problem today is that “secular humanism” is the current (unofficial) religion of choice for the left. They just don’t call it a religion even though the left tries to impose it by fiat, intimidation, lawsuits, judicial rulings, shouting, deception and lies. It has all the characteristics of a “religious” system of beliefs. The primary difference is that it is “Godless” except as to the exclusion of the god of self. Unfortunately, history shows that the societies based on the god of self never end well. History is replete with examples…But then again those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it. Never fails. Just like 2+2 will always equal 4 and the left is always “angry” even when they ostensibly “win”.

American historian Richard B. Morris, in his 1973 book Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers as Revolutionaries, identified the following seven figures as the “key” Founding Fathers:
John Adams
Benjamin Franklin
Alexander Hamilton
John Jay
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
George Washington
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“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.”—John Adams.
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“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation.  But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?”  John Adams -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
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“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature.  They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.”
—Thomas Jefferson
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“We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication .”
—Thomas Jefferson
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“In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it.”—Benjamin Franklin
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“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”    -in Poor Richard’s Almanac
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“We do not admit the authority of the church with respect to its pretended infallibility, its manufactured miracles, its setting itself up to forgive sins.  It was by propagating that belief and supporting it with fire that she kept up her temporal power.” -Thomas Paine
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“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.  Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated.  I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
              —George Washington- letter to Edward Newenham, 1792
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Historian Barry Schwartz writes: “George Washington’s practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian…  He repeatedly declined the church’s sacraments.  Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary…  Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative.” [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]
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“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” —James Madison-letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay
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“Jay was a member of the Church of England, and later of the Protestant Episcopal Church in America after the American Revolution. Since 1785, Jay had been a warden of Trinity Church, New York. As Congress’s Secretary for Foreign Affairs, he supported the proposal after the Revolution that the Archbishop of Canterbury approve the ordination of bishops for the Episcopal Church in the United States. Mi>He argued unsuccessfully in the provincial convention for a prohibition against Catholics holding office.</i>
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The one religious member of the “key” Founding Fathers was an anti-Catholic Episcopal!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States
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Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholics (D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.
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A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called “Jefferson Bible”) and Benjamin Franklin. Others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.
Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid “theistic rationalism”.

It’s amazing how well-timed the NCR “spam” police get involved when someone tries to respond to the outrageous lies posted by people like jacobum.
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Religion
Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholics (D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.
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A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called “Jefferson Bible”) and Benjamin Franklin.[21] Others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.
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Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid “theistic rationalism”.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States
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John Jay was and Episcopal who “argued unsuccessfully in the provincial convention for a prohibition against <i>Catholics<i> holding office.”
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Calling “secular humanism” a religion is an outright slander to secular hmanists. Secular humanism is the basis of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States as the Founding Fathers were separating government from the tyranny of Kings AND Religion.
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I hope this gets through. I changed my moniker for this purpose.

4more: I’m not trying to avoid answering an ethical question, but, rather, trying to get the facts of the story out, which you have glossed over in your push to blame the Church.

The Church did not, does not, will not ever stop a doctor from saving a woman’s life once the fetus has died or is no longer capable of surviving. The family stated that the doctor said she was in the process of a miscarriage - that the baby was dead/dying. No Church laws would be broken by removing such a fetus: remember that the Church is pro-LIFE. Once the baby is dead, it isn’t an abortion, but removal of a dead baby.

The Irish hospital appears (remember: we only have one side of the story at this point, as the investigation is under way) to have failed to correctly apply existing laws, which have been in place everywhere for many years - laws which are not in opposition to Catholic teaching.

Another way to say it is: that woman could have died under those same circumstances in New York or Chicago or your neightborhood hostpital. Medical malpractice happens. Doctors are human beings.

Using her tragic death to change Irish laws would make sense only if there is a way to prevent a similar tragedy through the legal system. But changing Church teaching is unnecessary to that specific goal: Church teaching did not kill her, unless it was mis-applied. If that’s the case, then better training is necessary, not different teaching.

Some people drive faster than the speed limit, and sometimes, that leads to fatal car accidents. Would you demand that we increase or remove all speed limits? Of course not. The problem isn’t the law, but the inperfect human beings not following the law.

Any reasonable discussion based on the death of that woman in Ireland must follow from the facts of the case. If you feel that I have the facts wrong, please cite your sources. If I have stated the facts correctly, then please explain how you view my conclusions as illogical.

If you wish to continue this discussion with me, please be so kind as to stick to one issue at a time so that we can maintain civility and clarity. Thank you.

Her husband, Praveen Halappanavar (34), an engineer at Boston Scientific in Galway, says she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated. He says that, having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Ms Halappanavar asked for a medical termination.
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This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, “this is a Catholic country”.
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She spent a further 2½ days “in agony” until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

“The doctor told us the cervix was fully dilated, amniotic fluid was leaking and unfortunately the baby wouldn’t survive.” The doctor, he says, said it should be over in a few hours. There followed three days, he says, of the foetal heartbeat being checked several times a day.

“Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, ‘As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can’t do anything’.

“Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [a Hindu] said: ‘I am neither Irish nor Catholic’ but they said there was nothing they could do.

“That evening she developed shakes and shivering and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took bloods and started her on antibiotics.

“The next morning I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn’t.”

At lunchtime the foetal heart had stopped and Ms Halappanavar was brought to theatre to have the womb contents removed. “When she came out she was talking okay but she was very sick. That’s the last time I spoke to her.”
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At 11 pm he got a call from the hospital. “They said they were shifting her to intensive care. Her heart and pulse were low, her temperature was high. She was sedated and critical but stable. She stayed stable on Friday but by 7pm on Saturday they said her heart, kidneys and liver weren’t functioning. She was critically ill. That night, we lost her.”

In the following case, the refusal of the hospital ethics committee to approve uterine evacuation not only caused significant harm to the patient but compelled a perinatologist, Dr S, now practicing in a nonsectarian academic medical center, to violate protocol and resign from his position in an urban northeastern Catholic-owned hospital.
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“I’ll never forget this; it was awful—I had one of my partners accept this patient at 19 weeks. The pregnancy was in the vagina. It was over… . And so he takes this patient and transferred her to [our] tertiary medical center, which I was just livid about, and, you know, “we’re going to save the pregnancy.” So of course, I’m on call when she gets septic, and she’s septic to the point that I’m pushing pressors on labor and delivery trying to keep her blood pressure up, and I have her on a cooling blanket because she’s 106 degrees. And I needed to get everything out. And so I put the ultrasound machine on and there was still a heartbeat, and [the ethics committee] wouldn’t let me because there was still a heartbeat. This woman is dying before our eyes. I went in to examine her, and I was able to find the umbilical cord through the membranes and just snapped the umbilical cord and so that I could put the ultrasound—“Oh look. No heartbeat. Let’s go.” She was so sick she was in the [intensive care unit] for about 10 days and very nearly died… . She was in DIC [disseminated intravascular coagulopathy]… . Her bleeding was so bad that the sclera, the white of her eyes, were red, filled with blood… . And I said, “I just can’t do this. I can’t put myself behind this. This is not worth it to me.” That’s why I left.”
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From Dr S’s perspective, the chances for fetal life were nonexistent given the septic maternal environment. For the ethics committee, however, the present yet waning fetal heart tones were evidence of fetal life that precluded intervention. Rather than struggle longer to convince his committee to make an exception and grant approval for termination of pregnancy, Dr S chose to covertly sever the patient’s umbilical cord so that the fetal heartbeat would cease and evacuation of the uterus could “legitimately” proceed.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2636458/

@4more: thank you for those details. Her case is very interesting to me, personally, because my mother miscarried at about the same fetal age (17 weeks). It was my mother’s 6th pregnancy. In my mother’s case, she knew the baby was dead and the doctor confirmed it, but sent her home with instructionns to wait for her body to proceed through delivering a stillborn baby. That is what happened. No toxicity, though, as this poor Irish woman experienced. If my mother had pain, she didn’t mention it. (But she was gifted with an amazingly high threshold for pain.)

What you have posted is more information than I had seen: that there was still a heartbeat. This is news to me. I do not know A) what Irish law or Irish medical practice recommendations are based on that situation, nor B) what the Church teaching would be for that situation.

And we are still waiting for the hospitals official report. IOWs: we only have the family’s side of the story at this point. I do not mean to imply that anything is false - just that we might not have a critical piece of information that the doctor had.

From this data so far, we do not know if the doctor neglected to start antibiotics or pain meds - assuming that is a standard procedure. Seems like it should be.

If the doctor is at fault (which seems to be the case: starting antibiotics promptly should have prevented the mother’s death), then the hospital might be very cautious about releasing any info. I’m sure lawyers are already involved - mostly telling everyone to be quiet. It might be weeks before we know all the facts.

I strongly suspect that it will come down to recommendations that Irish law/medical practices and the Church need to better clarify what needs to be done in such situations. Or, as I said before, it could be that this is a case of insufficient understanding/mis-application of the existing standard practices.

However, Church teaching on the sanctity of life will not change. The Church treasures both the life of the mother and the life of the child. Procured abortion - specifically choosing to kill the baby - is an intrinsic evil: always wrong. That is Church teaching, and will never change. This is Church doctrine - it is infallible teaching. It cannot change, because Truth doesn’t change.

Therefore my question about why you continue to fight it.

Venerable Fulton Sheen said: “Right is right, even if no one is right. Wrong is wrong, even if everyone is wrong.”

The Church’s purpose on earth is to lead us to Heaven. To do that she must teach the Truth about right and wrong. As Flannery O’Connor said: “The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.”

When you have a medical emergency, you want to get to the nearest hospital–fast. But if you’re a pregnant woman with a medical emergency, the nearest hospital may refuse to treat you if it’s Catholic-run. The medical personnel may have to let you die, because the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops–or as I’ve begun to think of them, the Catholic Death Panel–has ordered Catholic hospitals to deny women care they deem immoral.
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It’s hard to believe, but administrators, physicians and nurses who work in Catholic health-care facilities have abdicated responsibility for their female patients to the 258 men who make up the U.S. Conference of Bishops. That group has decided that pregnant women aren’t patients–they’re merely incubators.
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And if you’re not Catholic, you’re still subject to the restrictions placed on those hospitals. You will not be able to have an abortion, even if your life is at risk. You can’t receive emergency contraception if you’ve been raped. There will be no treatment for an ectopic pregnancy or an incomplete miscarriage. Contraception and sterilization will be out of the question.
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The “consciences” of those institutions means that the medically untrained 258-member Catholic Death Panel will dictate what medical care will be provided in those facilities.
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4more: re: your posting at 8:46 - how sad! A beaurocratic nightmare. I do not blame the doctor for taking action in that extreme situation. Like the Irish woman’s case: clearly articulated procedures that take into account the value of both lives would have given the doctor the leeway necessary to take action sooner.

The Church teaching is that procured abortion - sought for the explicit purpose of killing the baby - is intrinsic evil. That teaching will never change. But, as with ectopic pregnancies - medical intervention to save the mother, even if the baby will likely die, is allowed.

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This is a tragic loss, and we need to remember that Irish doctors are always obliged to intervene to save the life of a mother – even if that risks the life of her baby.

In fact, the Medical Council are very clear in this regard that their guidelines state that doctors will be struck off if they don’t intervene to save the life of a mother. The result of the investigation into Ms Halappanavar’s death will make the facts known, and journalists have been rushing to pre-empt those investigations when they are not in full possession of the facts.

According to the information that is available, it seems that a delay in administering antibiotics may have been the cause of the septicaemia which tragically led to her death.

Experts commenting on the case have made it clear that in such cases the main concentration of the medical team treating any woman in this situations would be on maintaining her health. “In such situations, you expedite delivery,” one Obstetrician told the Irish Times
“

quoted from:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2012/11/woman-dies-in-ireland-after-being-denied-an-abortion/

As Ms. Halappanavar died of an infection, one that would have been brewing for several days if not longer, the fact that a termination was delayed for any reason is malpractice. Infection must always be suspected whenever, preterm labor, premature rupture of the membranes, or advanced premature cervical dilation occurs (one of the scenarios that would have brought Ms. Halappanavar to the hospital).
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As there is no medically acceptable scenario at 17 weeks where a woman is miscarrying AND is denied a termination, there can only be three plausible explanations for Ms. Hapappanavar’s “medical care” :
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1) Irish law does indeed treat pregnant women as second class citizens and denies them appropriate medical care. The medical team was following the law to avoid criminal prosecution.
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2) Irish law does not deny women the care they need; however, a zealous individual doctor or hospital administrator interpreted Catholic doctrine in such a way that a pregnant woman’s medical care was somehow irrelevant and superceded by heart tones of a 17 weeks fetus that could never be viable.
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3) Irish law allows abortions for women when medically necessary, but the doctors involved were negligent in that they could not diagnose infection when it was so obviously present, did not know the treatment, or were not competent enough to carry out the treatment.
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What we do know is that a young, pregnant, woman who presented to the hospital in a first world country died for want of appropriate medical care. Whether it’s Irish Catholic law or malpractice, only time will tell; however, no answer could possibly ease the pain and suffering of Ms. Halappanavar’s loved ones.
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Halappanavar’s widower reported that she was leaking amniotic fluid and was fully dilated when first evaluated. There is no medically defensible position for doing anything other than optimal pain control and hastening delivery by the safest means possible.
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http://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/did-irish-catholic-law-or-malpractice-kill-savita-halappanavar/

If you think it couldn’t happen in the United States, you haven’t been paying attention. After all, in 2010, Sister Margaret McBride, an administrator in a Catholic Hospital in Phoenix, was fired and excommunicated after she approved a first-trimester abortion for a woman with life-threatening pulmonary hypertension.
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What happens in Catholic hospitals when there’s no Sister Margaret willing to risk the bishops’ wrath? With conscience clauses expanding to cover not just individual doctors but whole hospitals, a pregnant woman may find her care is being dictated not by standard health protocols but by a religion she doesn’t even follow. Savita was a Hindu, after all. What about her conscience?
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Who is more valuable, a living woman or a dying fetus? The Catholic Church has given its answer, and Savita Halapannavar is dead. If this was Islam, we’d never hear the end of it.
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http://www.thenation.com/blog/171275/when-pro-life-kills

I may be a case where the physicians wanted to perform the termination, but they could not because the hospital ethics committee did not permit it. There was no Sister McBride who was excommunicated because a Bishop didn’t agree with her use of the “double effect” principle.
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I’m still asking:
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Would you accept the death of both your grandchild and your daughter because a Catholic hospital ethics committee ruled that the necessary treatment to save her life be withheld until the fetal heartbeat stops?.

Doesn’t Ireland have the lowest maternal death rate?  On the whole they must be doing something right.  It would seem at worst this case is a tragic aberration.

Abortion was first outlawed under British rule in Ireland in 1861 and can lead to a sentence of life imprisonment, but according to the Irish Family Planning Association, since 1980 at least 138,000 women have gone abroad, mainly to England, to obtain abortions.
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The first breach in the wall of silence around abortion came about in 1992 when a 14-year-old rape victim attempted to travel to England to terminate her pregnancy. The Irish government, on the advice of the attorney general, sought initially to prevent her from travelling out of the country. The prospect of a modern European republic seeking to deny a child from leaving the country, and in turn forcing her to endure pregnancy brought on by rape, produced one of the most famous images of the early 1990s. Martin Turner’s cartoon depicted a child inside the 26 counties of the Irish Republic shut off by barbed wire and the caption: “The re-introduction of internment … for 14 year old girls.”
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The 14-year-old in what became known as the X-case was eventually able to leave the country because her legal team evoked legislation contained within the European convention on human rights on the right to travel within the EU – a convention Ireland signed on joining the EEC back in 1973.
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The horrific case of Savita Halappanavar in Galway will underline the need for reform south of the border although any change in the law is a huge political gamble for the current coalition. However, the present government does have some space not afforded to any other administration in the past.
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When the religious right forced through the 1983 constitutional amendment the Catholic church was a powerful and feared force throughout the land. Barring a few leftwing deputies, few if any Irish politicians would have said boo to a bishop let alone dare suggest the church’s stance on abortion was wrong.
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Since the deluge of dirt started to cascade over the Catholic church in the way it covered up paedophile priest scandals and child abuse stories the hierarchy’s reputation has been shredded in the eyes of the majority of the republic’s population.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/ireland-abortion-ban-history
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The maternal death rate is an irrelevant statistic—This mother died when she could have lived, because the fetal heartbeat was considered more important than her own.

@4more:
Your posting at Nov 15, 2012 8:54 PM has some pretty wild-eyed claims. Unless you can provide citations, I will simply ignore them all. And please note: you don’t do your credibility any favors by quoting extremists weilding half-truths.
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The posting at Nov 15, 2012 9:37 PM says essentially the same thing I’ve been saying all along: it was medical malpractice. Seeing as the Irish Medical Board has clearly stated that doctors are required to take action - and that apparently was not done in this case, it is a logical conclusion that abortion laws did not play a part, except possibly in being mis-applied. The solution for laws that are not correctly applied is to train people, not change the laws. (See my speeding analogy from earlier today.)
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The posting re: Sr. McBride is another case of medical malpractice. Thanks to modern medical techniques, such a pregnancy can usually be maintained until the fetus is viable, then the birth can be induced - so mom & baby live happily ever-after. While this does not guarantee that both will survive, it is the best ethical solution. Note that abortion is not a treatment for pulmonary hypertension. Abortion is always wrong, because it kills a child.
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As to your question: I would be happiest if my daughter, or anyone in my family - including myself - were treated for whatever we need at a good Catholic hospital staffed by people who are properly trained and adhere to the Church’s teaching. I would NOT want my pregnant daughter treated at a hospital that would offer to kill my grandchild, regardless of my daughter’s condition.
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FYI: The Church does not subscribe to moral relativism. So, one life is not more important than another. My daughter’s life is not more important than my unborn grandchild. The Pope’s life is not more important than yours, nor is his life more important than the homeless drug addict who steals and has a long rap sheet. Every life has infinite value, and medical professionals are called to do their utmost to preserve every life they can. Abortion always kills, therefore abortion is always wrong.
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Often, we find that the Church’s teachings aren’t easy, but that doesn’t make them invalid or incorrect. As Flannery O’Connor said: “The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” Our Lord told us that we were to take up our cross and follow Him. Well, look where He took His! His example for us is of the greatest love: self-sacrificial love. That is: doing whatever is necessary for the good of the other. Abortion is selfish and self-serving. And it always kills the baby. It is diametrically opposed to the teachings of Our Lord.
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This is a world-view conflict, I think. Because the Church calls us to love our neighbor and to be willing to sacrifice for our neighbor, anyone who is pro-choice runs directly into this conflict. If you think the Church will change its teaching on this, you are either under-informed (something I’ve been trying to remedy) or outright delusional.
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I mean, seriously: do you honestly think you can change the Church’s teaching on the intrinsic evil that is abortion? Even if every Catholic in the world voted to allow abortion, it would still be immoral. (Of course, the Church isn’t a democracy. Like Heaven: it’s a hierarchy.) If the Pope himself were to announce tomorrow that abortion is allowed in some cases, he would cease to be Pope. Fact: Even he can’t change this teaching.
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So, seeing as abortion is so important to you, why are you beating your head against this immovable brick wall? The Church has outlasted every major empire. It won’t budge on this issue. It can’t.
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Go in peace.

Posted by James Kurt on Thursday, Nov 15, 2012 11:11 PM (EDT):Doesn’t Ireland have the lowest maternal death rate?  On the whole they must be doing something right.  It would seem at worst this case is a tragic aberration.
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Last time I checked this was true, however, standards of healthcare in Ireland are variable.If you follow Irish news-both North & South-there have been some real problems lately.Not that things ever go wrong in the States.They do.But folks only sit up & notice when there’s some political agenda attached.

@MaryS “FYI: The Church does not subscribe to moral relativism. So, one life is not more important than another. My daughter’s life is not more important than my unborn grandchild. The Pope’s life is not more important than yours, nor is his life more important than the homeless drug addict who steals and has a long rap sheet. Every life has infinite value, and medical professionals are called to do their utmost to preserve every life they can. Abortion always kills, therefore abortion is always wrong.”
Mary, I was taught that if it was a matter of saving the mother’s life or the child’s, the Church says to save the child. So which life is more important? How did the Church decide which is? One way or the other a “killing” transpires. Did Jesus say anything about this?  This is something that has always troubled me, and many others. {Now I am playing the devil’s advocate} Supposing the mother had several small children at home who needed her? Supposing the husband “left” or was dead…who would take care of the children, they would have no parent at all now. I don’t believe in abortion per se, but this scenario has always troubled me. I cannot settle it in my mind…maybe you can help. I am sure it seldom happens because I personally have never heard of anyone in this predicament. 

@Sue(old): St. Gianna Molla is an example. There have been others, too, that have not been canonized - I read about one a few months ago on LifeSiteNews: the mother kept saying to the doctors: whatever happens, save my baby!
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Jesus gave us the model of self-sacrifice. Thankfully, most are not called to die for others, but some are. St. Gianna did, leaving behind a newborn and other children. Her youngest daughter - who never knew her mother - has a great love for the courageous saint her mother was: the great example of what a hero is.
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And think about the woman who chooses the opposite: she’s saying, in effect, “No! My life is more important than my baby’s life.” And she’ll have to live with that decision the rest of her life - just as the post-abortive women do. Higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, etc. all point to the reality that we cannot escape our nature: as women, we are meant to nurture and cherise babies, not kill them.
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Think of the mother who runs out into the street/storm/lion’s den/great danger to save her 3-yr old, with no thought to her own safety. That is natural. That is a mother’s love. And that is, essentially, the same thing as the pregnant mother giving her all for her unborn child.
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It’s very sad that our abortion-on-demand culture has reduced the unborn to something less than human. I think that is what makes this particular Church teaching so hard to accept. Our culture teaches that it’s all about me-me-me - whatever is “best”, easiest, most comfortable for ME! That mindset is simply incomaptible with the value of self-sacrifice for the sake of another.
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“I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live” - Dr. 30:19
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If ours was a culture that rejoiced at every pregnancy and celebrated every birth - seeing each child as a blessing - then we would be more willing to see that a mother’s sacrifice of her very life for her child as the right thing to do. Not easy, but right. And that cultural mindset helps her to make that sacrificial choice. Our culture opposes it - vehemently denying the child’s right to life. This is so tragic.
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So, you see, the Church’s teaching is in line with human nature - women’s nature: to protect the child. It is very rare for such circumstances to present themselves, and we must remember that God gives us the grace we need to do His will, if we just accept it. It’s a cross, yes, and a seriously heavy one! But we must remember that we are just pilgrims here on earth: our home is in Heaven. So, when asked to take up our crosses, we’ll find it a bit easier if we keep His Passion in mind, and our end goal.
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As to the single mother with other kids at home: there are no starving people in the USA. We have safety nets. If we didn’t have immoral secular ideology corrupting the foster care system, those kids could end up with a good family that would help them cope with their loss, and grow up to love their courageous mother who laid down her life for them. They’d know what that means, and treasure it, and have a higher respect for life because of it. They would be ready to do the same for others. The tragedy of the mother’s death could launch several generations of truly good, self-sacrificing people. Saint material! A sick mother in a culture that can see ahead to such potential goodness can more easily say “Yes” to layingdown her life for her baby.
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In coutries where starvation is a reality, there are extended families and real community - people who pull together when tragedy strikes. At least, that’s what most do to the best of their abilities when corrupt govts allow it. And, barring the secular West’s corruptive influence, such communities actually cherish life, and the kids can grow up to continue to cherish life and honor their mother’s sacrifice.
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Could I give my life to save my child? I would hope so. I am truly grateful that I was never asked to do that. But I do fight for the pro-life cause. My time, talent, and treasure go toward building a better future for all, where every life is cherished, and women don’t live with the terrible burden of regret.
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I hope this helps you better understand the Church’s teaching, and see it as right and good, if difficult and scary. Like the Cross… without which there is no Resurrection.
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Blessings to you Sue!

@Sue(old): I had to start with a new ID, due to so many posts, I guess…
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Well, St. Gianna Molla is one example. There have been others, too, that have not been canonized - I read about one a few months ago on LifeSiteNews: the mother kept saying to the doctors: whatever happens, save my baby!
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Jesus gave us the model of self-sacrifice. Thankfully, most are not called to die for others, but some are. St. Gianna did, leaving behind a newborn and other children. Her youngest daughter - who never knew her mother - has a great love for the courageous saint her mother was: the great example of what a hero is.
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And think about the woman who chooses the opposite: she’s saying, in effect, “No! My life is more important than my baby’s life.” And she’ll have to live with that decision the rest of her life - just as the post-abortive women do. Higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, etc. all point to the reality that we cannot escape our nature: as women, we are meant to nurture and cherise babies, not kill them.
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Think of the mother who runs out into the street/storm/lion’s den/great danger to save her 3-yr old, with no thought to her own safety. That is natural. That is a mother’s love. And that is, essentially, the same thing as the pregnant mother giving her all for her unborn child.
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It’s very sad that our abortion-on-demand culture has reduced the unborn to something less than human. I think that is what makes this particular Church teaching so hard to accept. Our culture teaches that it’s all about me-me-me - whatever is “best”, easiest, most comfortable for ME! That mindset is simply incomaptible with the value of self-sacrifice for the sake of another.
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“I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live” - Dr. 30:19

@Sue(old): If ours was a culture that rejoiced at every pregnancy and celebrated every birth - seeing each child as a blessing - then we would be more willing to see that a mother’s sacrifice of her very life for her child as the right thing to do. Not easy, but right. And that cultural mindset helps her to make that sacrificial choice. Our culture opposes it - vehemently denying the child’s right to life. This is so tragic.
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So, you see, the Church’s teaching is in line with human nature - women’s nature: to protect the child. It is very rare for such circumstances to present themselves, and we must remember that God gives us the grace we need to do His will, if we just accept it. It’s a cross, yes, and a seriously heavy one! But we must remember that we are just pilgrims here on earth: our home is in Heaven. So, when asked to take up our crosses, we’ll find it a bit easier if we keep His Passion in mind, and our end goal.
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As to the single mother with other kids at home: there are no starving people in the USA. We have safety nets. If we didn’t have immoral secular ideology corrupting the foster care system, those kids could end up with a good family that would help them cope with their loss, and grow up to love their courageous mother who laid down her life for them. They’d know what that means, and treasure it, and have a higher respect for life because of it. They would be ready to do the same for others. The tragedy of the mother’s death could launch several generations of truly good, self-sacrificing people. Saint material! A sick mother in a culture that can see ahead to such potential goodness can more easily say “Yes” to layingdown her life for her baby.
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In coutries where starvation is a reality, there are extended families and real community - people who pull together when tragedy strikes. At least, that’s what most do to the best of their abilities when corrupt govts allow it. And, barring the secular West’s corruptive influence, such communities actually cherish life, and the kids can grow up to continue to cherish life and honor their mother’s sacrifice.

Sue(old) - If ours was a culture that rejoiced at every pregnancy and celebrated every birth - seeing each child as a blessing - then we would be more willing to see that a mother’s sacrifice of her very life for her child as the right thing to do. Not easy, but right. And that cultural mindset helps her to make that sacrificial choice. Our culture opposes it - vehemently denying the child’s right to life. This is so tragic.
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So, you see, the Church’s teaching is in line with human nature - women’s nature: to protect the child. It is very rare for such circumstances to present themselves, and we must remember that God gives us the grace we need to do His will, if we just accept it. It’s a cross, yes, and a seriously heavy one! But we must remember that we are just pilgrims here on earth: our home is in Heaven. So, when asked to take up our crosses, we’ll find it a bit easier if we keep His Passion in mind, and our end goal.
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As to the single mother with other kids at home: there are no starving people in the USA. We have safety nets. If we didn’t have immoral secular ideology corrupting the foster care system, those kids could end up with a good family that would help them cope with their loss, and grow up to love their courageous mother who laid down her life for them. They’d know what that means, and treasure it, and have a higher respect for life because of it. They would be ready to do the same for others. The tragedy of the mother’s death could launch several generations of truly good, self-sacrificing people. Saint material! A sick mother in a culture that can see ahead to such potential goodness can more easily say “Yes” to layingdown her life for her baby.
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In coutries where starvation is a reality, there are extended families and real community - people who pull together when tragedy strikes. At least, that’s what most do to the best of their abilities when corrupt govts allow it. And, barring the secular West’s corruptive influence, such communities actually cherish life, and the kids can grow up to continue to cherish life and honor their mother’s sacrifice.
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Could I give my life to save my child? I would hope so. I am truly grateful that I was never asked to do that. But I do fight for the pro-life cause. My time, talent, and treasure go toward building a better future for all, where every life is cherished, and women don’t live with the terrible burden of regret.
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I hope this helps you better understand the Church’s teaching, and see it as right and good, if difficult and scary. Like the Cross… without which there is no Resurrection.
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Blessings to you Sue!

Thanks,Mso,Ms2: I knew what the Church taught on this, but never delved into it and I guess because I had such easy pregnancies and deliveries. [5’1”,103lbs.] I just never had to think of it.  Of course in my day it was Ether. I will always remember when I first set eyes on my first child, after everyone else in the family saw her in the Nursery [they did not want her too close to me as I reeked of Ether. ;o) Anyway when all the family left, they finally brought her to me and all I did was stare at her and the thought in my head was “she’s a miracle”, I was really in awe of her, my Mary, my first child.
I think I may have mentioned that last Sunday, a Filipino Family had a baptism during Mass…there were about 30 of them….came from different States, just to witness this Baptism. Pews were reserved for them right in front of me. It was so beautiful to see, I got tears in my eyes. It was a beautiful, homey, family-like Baptism…the little sister was up front by the B.Font also along with parents and God-parents….not like when I was first married, whereby only the God-parents went to the Sacristy, tho I definitely went too. Now it is right in the middle of the Mass…it is a “part of the Mass”.

I wonder if “True Democrap” and “4moreyearsofodumma” would enlighten us with the many stories of women dying from botched legal abortions. Or about how in India (where Ms. Halappanavar is from) they bury female infants alive because male children are more desired. Any concern for the lives of THOSE females? Ms. Halappanavar died from septicemia- blood poisoning- an abortion would not have cured or saved her. In addition, an abortion done under the conditions Ms. Halappanavar faced could have rendered her sterile. It is a shame that the pro-abortionists have exploited this case to further their agenda. All the FACTS have not been released. When they are, we will all see that this was just a tragic death that an abortion would not have prevented. Now, where is “True Democrap’s” concern for THESE victims of abortion:
Kermit Gosnell, 69, and nine employees from his West Philadelphia Women’s Medical Society were arrested Jan. 19 and charged with several offenses. Gosnell was charged with eight counts of murder for allegedly killing babies born alive and giving a lethal dose of Demerol to a woman.

“Thanks to modern medical techniques, such a pregnancy can usually be maintained until the fetus is viable, then the birth can be induced - so mom & baby live happily ever-after.”
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The key word in that sentence is “usually.” Are you saying the Irish physicians were not trained in modern medical techniques to save the pregnancy? Apparently they didn’t do anything except wait for the fetal heartbeat to stop, while the mother was dying in agony and pleading for help.
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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html
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What “modern medical techniques” are you referring to? I expect the investigations will reveal what techniques were available and what was done, but you have no reason to think they did not do everything to save the fetus, as it is a Catholic Hospital in a Catholic Country.
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It was malpractice, but based on Catholic belief. Law in Ireland will have to be changed to state specifically what criteria makes an abortion medically necessary—and these will contradict the Church. So Catholic Hospitals will either violate laws or no longer be Catholic Hospitals. It won’t destroy all Catholic faith, but it will be another victory for women’s rights.
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You are still dodging my question. Would you accept the death of your grandchild and your daughter under the same circumstances?

http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/68/documents/When There’s a Heartbeat article.pdf
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The above article is about instances where Catholic Hospitals in the U.S. refused to abort inevitable miscarriages, endangering the mother’s health and life. Luckily there are hospitals in this country that are not Catholic, and physicians move the woman as fast as they can.
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Whatever you think, MaryS, Savita Halappanavar died because Catholic ethics prevented physicians from giving her the care she needed to save her life.
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Would you accept the deaths of both your grandchild and your daughter because Catholic directives forbid the procedures that could have saved her life?

“I wonder if “True Democrap” and “4moreyearsofodumma” would enlighten us with the many stories of women dying from botched legal abortions. Or about how in India (where Ms. Halappanavar is from) they bury female infants alive because male children are more desired. Any concern for the lives of THOSE females? Ms. Halappanavar died from septicemia- blood poisoning- an abortion would not have cured or saved her. In addition, an abortion done under the conditions Ms. Halappanavar faced could have rendered her sterile…”
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1. That is one of the most Racist comments I’ve have the disgusting experience to read on this site—and that is plenty disgusting.
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2. Why should I post information on botched legal abortions? That’s your job.
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3. While you are at it, cite where you get that information about reproductive practices in India.
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4. She didn’t have septicemia when she was admitted to the hospital—her incomplete miscarriage and the failure to remove the dying fetus and treat her bleeding until the fetal heartbeat stopped, caused the septicemia that killed her. A timely abortion could have saved her life.
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5. There is no medical justification for murdering live-born babies. Your examples are irrelevant.
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6. You don’t know S**T. Your childish name-calling reveals that your IQ is less than that of a fruit-fly. Calling you stupid would be an insult to stupid people.

Everybody—
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I am not interested in getting the Catholic Church to change its precepts—I want the Catholic Church to keep its precepts out of healthcare.
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You are the people who are speculating about how to defend the Church—which implies that even you think Catholic ethics had something to do with what happened. Healthcare directives should focus on saving lives that can be saved, even at the expense of a fetal heartbeat in an inevitable miscarriage.
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In 2010, 17.2 million households, 14.5 percent of households (approximately one in seven), were food insecure, the highest number ever recorded in the United States 1 (Coleman-Jensen 2011, p. v.)
In 2010, about one-third of food-insecure households (6.7 million households, or 5.4 percent of all U.S. households) had very low food security (compared with 4.7 million households (4.1 percent) in 2007. In households with very low food security, the food intake of some household members was reduced, and their normal eating patterns were disrupted because of the household’s food insecurity (Coleman-Jensen 2011, p. v., Nord 2009, p. iii.) .
In 2010, children were food insecure at times during the year in 9.8 percent of households with children (3.9 million households.) In one percent of households with children,one or more of the children experienced the most severe food-insecure condition measured by USDA, very low food security, in which meals were irregular and food intake was below levels considered adequate by caregivers (Coleman-Jensen 2011, p. vi).

Would you accept the death of both your grandchild and your daughter because a Catholic hospital ethics committee ruled that the necessary treatment to save her life be withheld until the fetal heartbeat stops?

Why don’t they shut this blog down. It has become a private format for someone who is a disgruntled Catholic, and now hates the Catholic Church. I just cannot see someone of another denomination blogging as he/she does. Just don’t answer him/her anymore and maybe he/she will stop. He/she is exceptionally angry for one reason or another at the Catholic Church.  Let’s all just say a prayer that she/him comes to terms with things that is bothering him/her.

Didn’t I tell you that you would start making me out to be a troll?
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You just simply cannot defend what you wrote earlier. Now you can’t deal with the truth.
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Answer my question and I will leave. Yes or No: Would you accept the death of your grandchild and your daughter because a Catholic ethics delayed treatment that could have saved your daughter’s life?
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I don’t want to read any details about how beautiful children are, the epiphany of the Catholic Church, how mothers should be willing to sacrifice themselves, the “eternity” of the Church, or any other praise of the “infallible” doctrine of Popes.
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YES OR NO?

You are correct, Sue, that this blog has become a private format for the disgruntled former-Catholic who posts under 2 names but is the same person. If we ever wonder if Satan walks the earth, all we have to do is read this person’s comments and how angry he/she is getting. Isaiah 44:18 “They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand.”

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matt 7:13-14

Satan’s nature is malicious. His efforts in opposing God, His people, and His truth are tireless (Job 1:7; 2:2; Matthew 13:28)
Satan delights in deception (1 Timothy 3:6-7; 2 Timothy 2:26). His lying nature stands in bold contrast to the truth for which Christ stands (John 8:32, 44). The great falsehood which he uses so frequently is that good can be attained by doing wrong. This lie is apparent in practically all his temptations (Genesis 3:4-5). As the great deceiver, Satan is an expert at falsifying truth (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).

Sue (old) and Robert—
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You can’t answer my questions or dispute my comments. Now you are sticking you fingers in your ears and singing “LA, LA, LA, LA!)
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Am I to take that as an answer to my question? You don’t want to discuss it?
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I’m sorry you’re upset that I’ve been telling facts.
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At least I’m pretty sure that Sue (old) will die before me. When you meet your maker, send me a line. It will be a pleasure to learn when you go to heaven.

“God Forgive Them, For They Know Not What They Do”

Posted by True Democrat on Friday, Nov 16, 2012 9:29 PM (EDT):

Didn’t I tell you that you would start making me out to be a troll?
You just simply cannot defend what you wrote earlier. Now you can’t deal with the truth.
Answer my question and I will leave. Yes or No: Would you accept the death of your grandchild and your daughter because a Catholic ethics delayed treatment that could have saved your daughter’s life?
I don’t want to read any details about how beautiful children are, the epiphany of the Catholic Church, how mothers should be willing to sacrifice themselves, the “eternity” of the Church, or any other praise of the “infallible” doctrine of Popes.YES OR NO?

The answer to your question is two fold:

(1) The answer is YES…

If you are an authentic faithful Catholic who knows, loves and lives the faith. Would I like it? Of course not. No one would. Would I be hurt and angry? For sure. Would I know why it happened? No. However, faith is not based on feelings or emotions which can change with the wind. Anticipating the standard…“Well if God is love why does he allow so much evil happen to innocent people?” Answer? I don’t know. I am not God. What I do know however is that God allows evil for a greater good to happen. Surely,there is no greater evil than DEICIDE! Out of that evil also came the Greatest Good…Namely, our eternal salvation. Why? I don’t know. Again, I am not God. I just know and believe that God exists. That He created all of us. That He loves us unconditionally. That He allowed His Son, Jesus, to die for the salvation of all of us. That Jesus also founded only one Church which is the Roman Catholic Church. That 7 sacraments were instituted to fill us with Grace to assist us. That within His Church He deposited the complete fullness of His Truth contained within the Scripture, Oral Tradition and Magisterium of said Church. That He left the earthly guidance of His Church under the direction of His designated vicar and successor(s), the Pope(s) together with the successor to the apostle(s), the Bishops. All of which act as His visible and temporal presence on earth until His return and for which He promised the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. Last 2000+ years is proof of the Truth and His promise.

(2) The answer to your question is NO…if you are a non-religious, non-Catholic, Ex Catholic, Fallen Away Catholic, Angry Catholic, or Catholic In Name Only. My guess is that you are one of the former Catholics in the"NO” votes.

What I know is that no one ever leaves the Catholic Church if if one really knows and understands the Catholic Faith. 

Now we have answered your question…so we wish you well. We will keep you in our prayers and hope you are able to resolve your anger issues. The Catholic Church and the Sacraments are the answer. That is what they are there for. Unfortunately, we are all human beings.  Priests and Bishops are also human. Therefore we must always remember not to confuse the message (Truth) with the messengers (imperfect at best)
Goodnight and God Bless You. 

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/pat-archbold/i-figured-out-the-problem.-you#ixzz2CRzoAJVz

Sue (old) I know what I’m doing.
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jacobum
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1. That is really sick.
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2. I did not ask you if you would leave the Catholic faith. I just wanted to know if you were willing to have your daughter die for it. If that is Catholic faith, I want no part of it.
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Why do you think you need to act like God? What’s God for?

@4more: The situation you describe is so rare: if doctors are following Church teachings correctly and using best medical practices, very, very, very few mothers - if any! - would die as you describe.
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Rare situations like that are no basis for your agenda: to make abortion legal in Ireland and acceptable in the eyes of the Church. Softening the position on abortion would lead to millions of deaths of babies, and hundreds of deaths of mothers, because far more women die from procured abortion than die from the extremely rare situation you propose.
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“I’ve been a knowledgeable physician in this area for 52 years. When I was in training, we were given a number of reasons for “therapeutic abortion,” that is an abortion to save her life. I have watched through the years as, one by one, it was shown that these were not necessary or no longer necessary to save her life. Many became quite treatable, and in a couple of cases it was shown to be more dangerous to abort than to allow her pregnancy to continue.”
- http://www.christianliferesources.com/article/life-of-the-mother-is-it-needed-in-legislation-66
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“At an International Symposium on Maternal Health held in Dublin, experts agreed that “direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a mother.” (The group noted that in case of an ectopic pregnancy, treatment is not classified as direct abortion.) The group observed that “misinformation in regard to this abounds in public debate.”
- http://www.irishcatholic.ie/content/campaigners-target-abortion-‘misinformation’
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An exhaustive scientific study has shown that abortion is more dangerous for mothers than childbirth—contradicting a claim that is often advanced by advocates of legal abortion. Studying the records of nearly 500,000 pregnant women, researchers in Denmark found that those who continued the pregnancy to childbirth had lower mortality rates than those who procured abortions. Among women who chose abortion, the study found, the risk of pregnancy-related mortality during the first year after becoming pregnant was 80% higher than those who gave birth; it remained 40% higher over a 10-year period after the initial pregnancy. The Danish study confirmed findings from earlier studies in Chile and Ireland
- http://www.lifenews.com/2012/09/13/study-confirms-childbirth-is-safer-for-women-than-abortion/

@4:
Having said all that, I agree with everything jacobum said in #1. Add to that: I fight against abortion because I would much rather live in a society that respects life - even if a tiny number of women might die in giving birth - rather than a society like ours, that so devalues life that people have turned inward, and become so selfish - the opposite of what Jesus taught.
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Of course, it would be terribly difficult to watch my daughter and grandchild die. I have stood by the bedside of people I love as they are dying - two of them in terrible pain, including my husband. It was not easy, but I never got angry with God, or asked “Why?”, or railed against anything or anyone. I’m certain that losing my daughter and grandchild would be infinitely harder. But we are called to obey, and I would rather follow Church teaching than compromise it. Every day - several times each day - I pray “Thy will be done”, and it is through His Church’s teachings that we learn what His will is. I have faith that God would give me the grace to get through that tragic situation and the grief that follows it for the rest of my life, as He has done for me with every trial.
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I wouldn’t be alone: there would be a priest there - it being a good, Catholic hospital - and he’d be praying with us and administering the Last Rites to my daughter to speed her on her way to be with Jesus, where I know she will have no pain, and will be able to hold her baby - my grandchild - forever. And I know that I will one day be reunited with them in Heaven, which is our eternal home.
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Getting to Heaven is the most important thing. The MOST important thing. Far, far, far more important than any earthly happiness.
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I’m curious: What about you - your own death? Let’s assume it is on your own terms: after a long life, you get to die in a comfy bed. Are prepared to accept it?
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And now that we’ve answered your question, I would hope you could answer the one we’ve been asking you: Why are you here on this website?

Oh, yes—
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You don’t know, that is your problem.
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But, like I said, you answered my question, so I will leave.
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I love my daughter.

Dear True Dem: what do you mean by “You don’t know, that is your problem” ?

Hey, True Dem: have you seen this?? This sheds a lot of new light on that poor Irish woman’s fate, and Catholic teaching:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/samrocha/2012/11/the-scandalous-abortion-of-savita-halappanavar/#comment-360

Hey, I was going to leave, but you are still asking questions.
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Your problem is that you don’t know what happens in a medical situation, so you have no right to dictate how medical staff should act in a life-saving situation.
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Some people here believe that there are “modern medical techniques” that could have saved both mother and child. Not only do you have no references to support this, but you are accusing physicians in a Catholic hospital for not using those techniques. Remember—they told Savita and her husband that they were a Catholic country.
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I also did not see an answer from MaryS or Mary (old). They have just been defending the Catholic Church and trying to deny Catholic influence on the bioethics in women’s health.
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If you really knew anything about it, you could easily get rid of me by showing me how I am wrong.
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Sam—the article you references is doing the same thing—trying to separate Catholic religion from Catholic law. There is no denying that Catholic, rather than medical ethics guided the decision to wait for the heartbeat at the expense of the mother’s life.
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mso—I think you are morally sick. Nothing would get me to consent or accept my daughter’s death when her inevitable miscarriage was allowed to poison her body and kill her. Not God or Priest could convince me to accept it.
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For my own death—I believe in assisted suicide should I be terminally ill and faced with the prospect of a long, drawn-out and painful dying process. I would not kill my daughter, but if she were under the same circumstance, I would assist her as much as I could.
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It is tyranny that an authority would allow a woman to die against her will and a terminally ill person to live against their will.
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Savita Halappanavar was not dying when she was admitted to that hospital. She did not want to die, she accepted the inevitable loss of her child, and she had every right to expect the doctors to save her own life.
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Catholic Religion was the basis for their decision not to help her—it was the basis for her murder.

mso—I will be pleased to learn when you go to heaven as well.

to Matthew & Pat Archbold: you wrote about being stunned with the outcome of the election…my prayer for you is that you will now realize this:
if the only information you are getting is from fox “news” and no true source of news, you will find yourself dumbfounded every time.
and if i may ask a question… why don’t i see any bloggers on this website talking about the republican partys love of money and greed?  is greed still a sin in the catholic church? or is it ok to love money? i was raised in the cathlolic church to believe that money is the root of all evil. how come nobody ever calls out the republican party for their love of money?

Health care system in Ireland:
“All persons resident in Ireland are entitled to receive health care through the public health care system, which is managed by the Health Service Executive and funded by general taxation. A person may be required to pay a subsidised fee for certain health care received; this depends on income, age, illness or disability. All maternity services and child care up to the age of six months are provided free of charge. Emergency care is provided at a cost of €100 for a visit to the Accident and Emergency department.

Everyone living in the country, and visitors to Ireland who hold a European Health Insurance Card, are entitled to free maintenance and treatment in public beds in Health Service Executive and voluntary hospitals. Outpatient services are also provided for free. However the majority of patients on median incomes or above, are required to pay subsidised hospital charges.

The Medical Card - which entitles holders to free hospital care, GP visits, dental services, optical services, aural services, prescription drugs and medical appliances- is available to those receiving welfare payments, low earners, those with certain long-term or severe illnesses and in certain other cases. Many political parties support extending the availability of the Medical Card to eventually cover everyone resident in Ireland - they currently cover 31.9% of the population. Those on slightly higher incomes are eligible for a GP Visit Card which entitles the holder to free general practitioner visits. For persons over 70 years who are not entitled to a medical card or GP visit card they instead receive an annual cash grant of €400 up to a certain income.”

Got the above from Wikipedia, there is more to read there: It amounts to the same healthcare system as England and Canada. When I lived in Virginia, I volunteered at a Hospice with a Canadian woman, whose husband was a doctor at the local hospital. They loved Canada but he said he came here because “I could not do for my patients as I would like, to help them get better…health was rationed”
Ireland is the same….England is the same, so possibly that is why she did not get the care she would have gotten in the U.S. [up until now]
 
Sounds to me that my United States is emulating these two countries if not other countries also. It is Obamacare. What they said abt. their elderly would be comparable to my Medicare and the rest is Medicaid, if you are on welfare. Also in Obamacare it is ‘what you can afford’ [less money=less care]
My English son-in-law could have gone back to England when his wife died, but he did not want to go “because in the US, housing, food, medical, taxes, everything is much better.” [his quote]
So, if our friend on the blog wants to pay 10.00 for a gal. of petro, and other higher taxes to pay for being taken care of by the government, he should move to one of those countries.

“I will also be pleased when you go to Heaven”....same as saying “wish you were dead”.....at least you said Heaven and not hell.
SHAME ON YOU TRUE DEMOCRAT!  Sad that you have so much hate in your heart.

Justin, the Democrats love money and greed just as much, and perhaps more than, any Republican. The Democratic supporters (Spielberg, Geffen, Buffet,Gates,Winfrey, etc..)are some of the wealthiest in the world. Many big Democratic supporters live in the same neighborhoods as the Republican supporters. Democrat politicians have as much- and in many cases more- money than Republican politicians (Pelosi, Kerry, Reid, Clinton, etc..) The wealthiest President in the history of our country was JFK (Time magazine). I would hasten to say that the Democrats love POWER- they love to control others. Look up Democrat LBJ’s quote online about how he will get the ***‘s voting Democrat for the next 200 years. His derogatory view of minorities speaks volumes about how the Democrats really feel. Keep in mind that the Republican party gave us Abe Lincoln and the Southern Democrats enslaved people. Keeping people dependent on welfare and food stamps enslaves people today.The Democrats don’t care about the poor- they only care about their VOTE. Maybe you should find some “true” news, yourself, instead of regurgitating the lies and falsehoods spewed by the liberal media- all of whom are quite wealthy, themselves. It looks like you have allowed the wealthy liberals to manipulate your thinking. They are playing you for a fool. They don’t live in your neighborhood and never will. All they seek is power.

@4: You apparently did not read the links posted by mso on Saturday, Nov 17, 2012 3:10 AM - Those are doctors saying that there is no reason to ever do an abortion.
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The Irish doctors should have induced labor - which would finish what her body had already begun. This is fine by the Catholic Church - it is not abortion (the purposeful ending of a baby’s life), but rather, direct treatment for the mother’s health: assisting the miscarriage situation already underway. And it is far easier on her body than an abortion would be. They should have started her on antibiotics immediately. Note that reports do not say whether she had any infection when she first presented, but her situation called for antibiotics anyway, because she was at risk for infection due to the miscarriage.
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We still have no report from the doctors, so we don’t have all the facts. If she was saying “please abort” and they were saying “we should induce labor” and she was saying “no! I want an abortion”, then that would change everything.
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Or if the guidelines in place called for induction and antibiotics and the doctor neglected those, that would change the whole story, too. And it has nothing to do with Catholic teaching, if doctors fail follow the established practices.
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So, while you are insisting that it’s the fault of the Catholic Church, you have no evidence to prove that, while there is substantial evidence that standard medical procedures already in place in Ireland should have protected this poor woman. Until the hospital’s official report comes out, it is ridiculous to draw conclusions that place the blame on the lack of abortion, when a direct abortion would have put the woman at greater risk than induction. That is medical fact, based on what we do know.
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So, when you wrote “Your problem is that you don’t know what happens in a medical situation, so you have no right to dictate how medical staff should act in a life-saving situation” - you are, in fact, the one who is misinformed; apparently obstinate in refusing to accept facts presented by medical professionals.
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Tyranny is forcing Catholics to pay for immoral drugs and procedures in direct violation of our religious beliefs, and forcing Catholic hospitals to bow to your value system - your desire to control life and death - rather than to be guided by God’s will. Forcing us to sin against God is tyranny.
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Assisted suicide logically follows from the abortion mentality. It’s all about me-me-me - not about God’s will. Life is a gift from God, but you want to take control of it. That mindset leads to the worst tyranny possible: when others decide for you that you should be euthanized. Be careful of what you wish for! The day may come that they decide that YOU are inconvenient. So we fight to stop the state from having such power. We’re fighting for your right to live into old age, and not let the state decide when that should be.
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FYI: I agree wholeheartedly with mso. Yes: I would rather follow Church teaching, even if it meant the death of my daughter and grandchild, because I am obedient to God and His Church. This obedience is the path to Heaven. Jesus didn’t say it would be easy. He told us to seek the narrow gate, for wide and easy is the road that leads to perdition. And many go that wide and wasy way. Have you considered which road you are on in defying His Church?
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I am unafraid of you labeling me as “morally sick” and wishing me dead. It seems to me that, coming from you, that would count as a blessing.
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My guess is that you have an abortion in your past, and are expressing all this anger at the Church, as if the Church’s disappearance would somehow absolve you of your sins, remove the guilt, and heal your woundedness. It won’t. Because your sins (like mine and everyone’s) are not offenses against the Church, they are offenses against God. And, although the Church is His representative on earth, you can’t make God go away by making the Church go away. We have all sinned. Those who humbly turn to God through His Church and seek healing will find it. Healing, forgiveness, peace, freedom, and joy.

I pray that you find your way back to God.

@justin: The Church is not Republican and it is not Democrat. But the Church sees abortion as a much greater evil than other issues, because without the right to life, there can be no other rights at all. If we can kill babies just because the mother doesn’t want them - because they are inconvenient - then we can kill old folks and the disabled who are inconvenient. That camel’s nose is already under then tent, and the Catholic Church is fighting to push it back out.
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Because the Democrats are so very pro-abortion that they force everyone – even against our will! - to help fund abortion (Planned Parenthood gets >$1M per day, the Mexico City policy takes our tax dollars to pay for abortions in foreign countries, and the HHS mandate - don’t get me started!), therefore, the Catholic Church has well-founded grave concerns about the Democrats. Remember that the Dems actually booed God - 3 times! - at their convention.
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So the Church spoke out strongly against these ISSUES, but did not tell anyone “you must vote for Romney” - they never said that. They never said we had to vote Republican. There are 3rd parties, and there is the option of leaving that item blank or not voting at all. But voting in favor of a candidate who has demonstrated such great support for something intrinsically evil is to take some responsibility for that evil. The Church spoke against the evil, as is its duty.
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The Church does not choose a party to support. Remember that the Church has been around for 2000 years. The parties came along a bit later. ;-) The Church speaks on matters of faith and morals. How the parties line up according to Church teaching is up to them (the parties). We find that the Church’s teaching on immigration and support for the poor is more appealing to the Dems, while the Church’s teaching on religious freedom, family values, and the right to life is more appealing to the Republicans.
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Notable example: The Church’s teaching on the death penalty is more appealing to Dems, and infuriates Republicans. The Church values every life, but the Republicans are in favor of taking the lives of serious criminals. Clearly, the Church is not Republican.
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As to “greed” or love of money: that is a negative way to frame the actual issue, which is “the economy”. This is a prudential issue, which means there is more than one way to achieve the goal of doing what is best for the common good. Dems have their opinion about what would be best, Republicans have a very different opinion, Ron Paul has yet another idea, and there are still more ideas out there… but there is no proof that one idea is “perfect”, and the Church does not point to any party on this matter, either. Rather, the Church raises concerns for the poor, the immigrant, the unemployed, the sick… and asks all parties to do what is best for the common good.
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If there was a party that espoused both subsidiarity and authentic solidarity - according to the Church’s teaching on these - then that party would be very appealing to Catholics - and all people of good will - because it would be reflecting Catholic values. Sadly, there is no such party…
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Yet!

Sue (old)
It looks like you did a lot of research into Irish Laws, with the purpose of denying the Catholic religion was responsible for Mrs. Halappanavar’s death. It doesn’t matter.
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The Halappanavar’s were denied medical services to save the mother’s life because they were in a Catholic country. This was stated directly to them as why they could not terminate her pregnancy until the fetal heartbeat stopped. By the time the fetal heartbeat finally stopped she acquired septicemia and died from severe sepsis.  Whether it was malpractice by Irish law (which is being investigated)the Catholicism of the country and the hospital were the given reasons for denying care. Her healthcare was not rationed, it was DENIED because they lived in a Catholic country.
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Fully insured women in the U.S. are also denied therapeutic abortions in Catholic hospitals—I posted a link above. Most of the time they are fortunate to get transferred to a non-Catholic hospital to get the treatment they need to save their life. I might also remind you of Sister McBride who was declared excommunicated when she authorized the abortion to save the life of a woman. Sister McBride is a hero in my book in that she did what was needed to save a woman’s life.
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You seem perfectly willing to take comfort when other women go to heaven before their time. I don’t see why you should be offended. I’m sure you will like watching me suffer in the other place.

You’re also hurling a heck of a lot of ad hominem attacks on my character and that have no basis in reality and are nothing more or less than the speculations of a sick mind. Why are you so obsessed?
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You have no basis for telling me that I’m the one refusing to accept medical facts. You are the one who is playing Medical Expert in telling me all the things the doctors “could have done,” strongly implying that the physicians and hospital were inept and unequipped to treat her. You have no basis to suggest that this was the case.
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You might not love your daughter enough to reject religious beliefs that dictate she should be allowed to die under the circumstances, but the family is Hindu and they are citizens of India—which is NOT a Catholic country. This will be a religious controversy, not just a medical one, and the Catholics will have a lot of ‘splaining to do.

True Democrat, Would that you preferred the name True Catholic!  Over 300,000 children are aborted every year by women who are in crisis.  They see no other solution or have believed that this is an acceptable solution.  A third of my children’s generation has been aborted! That is not only a huge loss to their generation and a deep wound in the heart of a God of love, it is a huge scar on mankind because every year 300,000 women and men are killing their own child and they kill a bit of themselves each time. We are a society of walking wounded. There is another way.  And the Catholic Church has worked to stem the tide of misinformation, lies and deceit that has helped our culture think that God does not exist and there are no consequences to abortion, that children are a burden, an unnecessary accompaniment to sexual pleasure, that people are fools or stupid for getting pregnant unexpectedly and others will ridicule them or reject them forever, that nothing good can come from going through an unexpected pregnancy but pain, poverty, damaged body, burdens. Couples believe they are ready for marriage and sex but not ready for children because our culture puts a premium on material wealth and personal pleasure instead of spiritual wealth. All of these things are POVERTY.  Poverty of love, poverty of faith, poverty of hope.  If you really loved your daughter you would fight to wipe them out, not make them more prevalent.  You would condemn her to an eternity separated from the God who loves her and created her. You don’t realize what love is!  What happened in Ireland to one family was NOT in conformity with Catholic teaching yet it is now cast as the act of not only a whole country but a whole faith!  How absurd and inflammatory and disturbing.  There can be many reasons this happened including racism, pro-choice Catholic manuevering, apathy, ignorance and on and on.  God alone knows the heart of every person involved.  God alone knows why this occurred.  You are using it to divide and justify abortion. You are why I will never be a Democrat until the party changes. This woman and child who died have left a huge hole in the hearts of their family.  But even in the Hindu faith they are not gone forever.  Life is more than the seventy or eighty years spent on this earth.

The True-Demo. thinks I did a lot of research..ha, ha…he forgot what I said about my experience with the English….having an English son-in-law and an Irish niece-in-law and what I have learned from them, not a newspaper. Therefore, speaking for the English and Irish Countries, I know what they have experienced personally.  Oh, I forgot my Canadian friends…Dr.& Mrs. from Canada, who lived in Virginia and what they told me.  He is the one getting all his info from the newspaper/internet research.
He talks of the Republican Party being greedy and money hungry., yet John Kennedy was our richest President., his father, Old Joe, making all his money boot-legging liquor from Ireland.
Young man, old man, whoever you are [who is afraid to use your true name] STAY AWAY FROM THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH ITS BELIEFS, NO ONE IS ASKING YOU TO BELIEVE OR NOT TO BELIEVE, JUST GET OFF THIS BLOG. YOU HAVE GOTTEN ENOUGH ATTENTION, THAT IS ALL YOU WANT.  IF YOU REALLY WERE A CATHOLIC, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT FORCE ANYTHING ON ANYONE AND IS A VERY FORGIVING CHURCH.  [I am using capital letters, so that maybe you will finally understand…I am not yelling, etc.] Do what you want, remember we are still a free country.

@Justin: how about all the Union greed? The Union bosses take from their members, spend millions on electing Democrats, ruin companies (Hostess- ruined by Union greed and greedy management, owned and run by big Democratic supporters). The Union bosses collect huge salaries, live lavish lifestyles, love money, exploit their underlings, don’t live in MY neighborhood, either.

Pam—
All that you wrote is not important—it has no bearing on the Catholic responsibility in Mrs. Halappanavar’s death.
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At least your tirade got some anger off your chest.
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Sue (old)—you must be senile as well—IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT IRISH LAW AND YOU DON’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED EXCEPT THAT MRS. HALAPPANAVAR DIED BECAUSE SHE WAS IN A CATHOLIC COUNTRY.
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Whatever I believe and what ever you believe is not important nor how many Doctor friends you have—what is important is what the ethics committee, physicians and other medical staff believed so that they could justify letting her die in excruciating pain and disregard her pleas for help.
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If Catholic precepts are the basis of the protocol for “treating” inevitable miscarriage, those rules need to be changed to favor human life over “God’s will.”

Interesting that the story is on almost every news site except here. There is even a Wikipedia page!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar

TrueDem said: “rules need to be changed to favor human life over “God’s will.” - Well, that’s a very interesting statement!
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By claiming that human life is somehow at odds with God’s will, you demonstrate utter lack of understanding of the foundational fact that God’s will is the very source of human life. His will and human life cannot be at odds.
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Abortion, however, is clearly at odds with both human life and God’s will. This is the wagon you’ve hitched yourself to, and continue to support, no matter what? Really?
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But TrueDem is the One Who Decides All Things - never mind the rule of law, medical boards, the Church, the Bible, God’s will, other people’s freedom to take guidance from the Church, or even the obvious hypocrisy of TrueDem’s Great Decisive Pronouncement That Everyone In The World Must Obey: change the rules to allow abortion.
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(The above titles are not meant as attacks, but are, rather, to highlight the attitude that TrueDem has shown us here.)
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Thankfully, the only possible punishment for those of us who are damned by rejecting TrueDem as Ruler Of Everyone is to be verbally assaulted via combox.
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But let us rejoice! Our great and glorious God, Who is the Author of Life, Who makes His holy will known through His beautiful Church, and Who keeps all of His promises has told us that our reward as believers will be everlasting life.
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That sounds better to me than any reward TrueDem can possibly grant for bowing to her will.
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As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!

” rules need to be changed to favor human life over “God’s will.” “
  - per True Democrat on Sunday, Nov 18, 2012 3:26 PM (EDT)
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Well, that’s a very interesting statement!
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By claiming that human life is somehow at odds with God’s will, you demonstrate utter lack of understanding of the foundational fact that God’s will is the very source of human life. His will and human life cannot be at odds.
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Abortion, however, is clearly at odds with both human life and God’s will. This is the wagon you’ve hitched yourself to, and continue to support, no matter what…? Really?
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But TrueDem is the One Who Decides All Things - never mind the rule of law, medical boards, the Church, the Bible, God’s will, other people’s freedom to take guidance from the Church, or even the obvious hypocrisy of TrueDem’s Great Decisive Pronouncement That Everyone In The World Must Obey: the rules must be changed to allow abortion.
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(Note: The above titles are not meant as attacks, but are, rather, to highlight the attitude that TrueDem has been showing towards us here.)
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Thankfully, the only possible punishment for those of us who reject TrueDem as Ruler Of Everyone is to be insulted via combox.
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But let us rejoice! Our great and glorious God, All-Powerful and Ever-Living, Creator of all things, Who is the Author of Life, Who makes His holy will known through His beautiful Church, and Who keeps all of His promises - may His Name be praised forever! - He has told us that our reward as believers will be everlasting life with Him and all the saints and angels in Heaven.
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I dunno… but that sounds better to me than any reward TrueDem can possibly grant for bowing to her will.
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So, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!

TrueDem: - from your wikipedia link:
“Medical terminations have been carried out at University College Hospital Galway in the past where complications have arisen in pregnancy as is permitted by Irish law to save the life of the mother. In a piece in the Daily Mail, Paul Bracchi speculated that investigation into why this did not occur in Halappanavar’s case will be an important focus of the investigations into her death”
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IOWs: they suspect medical malpractice, and not abortion law.
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Plus, that same wikipedia article names A LOT of investigations that have been requested or are already underway to determine what went wrong.
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To determine what happened. Because… it isn’t clear!
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But you’ve already given Your Great Pronouncement, so all those medical professional in Ireland can just never mind and go home. TrueDem has spoken!

Hey, TrueDem - how come you never protested the tragedy of Tonya Reaves’ death?
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/09/11/autopsy-proves-planned-parenthood-killed-woman-in-botched-abortion/
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Abortion ain’t no guarantee of safety for the mother:
http://afterabortion.org/2000/the-cover-up-why-u-s-abortion-mortality-statistics-are-meaningless/
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“Obstetric excellence is what saves women’s lives, not abortion. The greatest thing any of us can do to honour Savita Halappanavar’s life is to insist on obstetric excellence for every woman.” IOWs: following best medical practices, as MaryS spelled out clearly yesterday at 7:43 PM.
That quote is from: http://www.lifenews.com/2012/11/16/savita-died-because-doctors-failed-to-follow-irish-pro-life-law/

mso—
I’m not trying to “decide” things—that is up to Irish law, medical boards, and, as you pointed out, the Catholic Church.
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And I’m not to get you to “obey” me—you are already enslaved.
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WHATEVER YOU THINK OF ME, SIVA HALAPPANAVAR DIED BECAUSE SHE WAS IN A CATHOLIC COUNTRY.
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She DIED because a Catholic hospital would not extract the remains of a miscarriage because there was a fetal heartbeat. A living woman died because a “potential life,” according to Catholic definition, that would never survive had a beating cardiac muscle.
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That is how all non-Catholics will interpret as to why she died. Regardless of what YOU think, others consider Savita Halappanavar died a wrongful death and Catholic “medical ethics” will be questioned. Irish law and Irish hospital protocols will hopefully have to be changed to allow the termination of a pregnancy while the fetal heart is still beating, and not wait three days for it to stop.

“His will and human life cannot be at odds.”
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Yes it can.

mso—I looked at the links about Tonya Reeves. Agreed, the abortion was likely botched, and it seems very likely that she died because of it. Also, it was another recent event, and investigations are underway.
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However neither the Catholic, pro-life news sites, nor the more neutral CBS site (the only relatively neutral site I could easily bring up),explained why Tonya Reeves was there for an abortion. Neither does it state that she died because she was in a “Planned Parenthood” abortion facility whose ethics dictate that they should let her bleed to death.
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I can go on about statistics, Planned Parenthood policies and protocols, and so on—but that is not important. Tonya Reeves died because of a botched procedure. She was not denied the abortion that she obviously came to Planned Parenthood for, and while her family is getting ready to sue Planned Parenthood for a wrongful death, there is no evidence suggesting the Evil Atheist “religion” dictated the treatment she received.
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The protocols of Planned Parenthood’s procedures and investigations as to other cases and their outcomes will happen. If there is any indication that “Evil Atheist” philosophy had any responsibility for Ms. Reeves death, is should get the same international attention that is being targeted toward the Catholic Church now.
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So far, only pro-choice sites are accusing Planned Parenthood—because planned parenthood performs abortion on demand. I looks like Ms. Reeves came to the Planned Parenthood facility for an abortion on demand, and it is by law that she was given complete information about the procedure, and consented to it.
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I’m not saying the abortion wasn’t botched, but I am saying she requested, like thousands of other women who are Catholic or otherwise, an abortion. The abortion procedure itself is not subject to moral scrutiny because she consented to it. She knew what she was doing.
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Savita Halappanavar was actively denied a life-saving procedure over three days because of Catholic morals defined by the Church were placed above the professional principles of the Medical Profession. She didn’t die from a botched operation, she died because Catholic precepts dictated her life was less important than a fetal heartbeat.
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Catholic philosophy would dictate that Tonya Reeves is now burning in hell because she intentionally had her pregnancy terminated—or do you think Planned Parenthood staff “brainwashed” her into “killing her child?”

mso—I looked at the links about Tonya Reeves. Agreed, the abortion was likely botched, and it seems very likely that she died because of it. Also, it was another recent event, and investigations are underway.
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However neither the Catholic, pro-life news sites, nor the more neutral CBS site (the only relatively neutral site I could easily bring up),explained why Tonya Reeves was there for an abortion. Neither does it state that she died because she was in a “Planned Parenthood” abortion facility whose ethics dictate that they should let her bleed to death.
.
So far, only pro-choice sites are accusing Planned Parenthood—because planned parenthood performs abortion on demand. It looks like Ms. Reeves came to the Planned Parenthood facility for an abortion on demand, and it is by law that she was given complete information about the procedure, and consented to it. Catholic philosophy would dictate that Tonya Reeves is now burning in hell because she intentionally had her pregnancy terminated.
.
There is no evidence suggesting the Evil Atheist “abortion religion” dictated the treatment she received.
.
The protocols of Planned Parenthood’s procedures and investigations as to other cases and their outcomes will happen. If there is any indication that “Evil Atheist” philosophy had any responsibility for Ms. Reeves death, is should get the same international attention that is being targeted toward the Catholic Church now.
.
I’m not saying the abortion wasn’t botched, but I am saying she requested, like thousands of other women who are Catholic or otherwise, an abortion. The abortion procedure itself is not subject to moral scrutiny because she consented to it. She knew what she was doing.
.
And she was not DENIED care as she begged for help.

TrueDem: It’s not about how I feel about you. It’s not about feelings, at all. It’s about facts and logic.
.
Thanks for the chuckle! You started that post by saying that you’re not trying to decide things… the then, there you go again with your decisive proclamation - written in all caps - a claim that you are foisting on the world, never mind the facts - which have yet to be determined, seeing as there are investigations under way, and we only have one side of the story at this point (the family’s).
.
So, in your perfect world, one side of the story is enough? No need for lawyers! (Before you declare that as a good thing, remember that sometimes, it’s the good guys who need the lawyers.)
.
No, I am not enslaved. Rather, I CHOOSE to serve the Lord. It’s a choice I make daily. Hourly. Sometimes, more often.
.
Point of fact: Once, I did feel enslaved. It was my sins that enslaved me: couldn’t stop the bad habits of a lifetime - was feeling compelled to sin again and again. So, I prayed and begged God for His help and wept and prayed some more and went to confession. O, Lord, you are so good to this poor sinner! I cannot express how grateful I am to receive the grace I need to escape that enslavement. How grateful I am to our awesome, loving God, Who wants what is best for each of us, Who knows (better than we possibly can) what truly is best for us, and Who only asks that we return His love.
.
TrueDem: I sincerely pray that you would someday know this true freedom!!!
.
Now, I wonder: are you enslaved by your hatred of the Church? Being apart from God, we become blind to Truth. Are you so blinded by your hatred such that you cannot see clearly that:
  • Church teaching,
  • Irish law, and
  • Irish medical practices
are all in agreement that induction was the best treatment for Mrs. Halappanavar (based on the info we have now), but was (for some yet-to-be-determined reason) withheld?
.
When I add up these FACTS, the most logical conclusion is: medical malpractice killed her. Yet you keep ignoring these facts and repeating your claim that it’s all the fault of the Church. Do you believe that saying it over and over again - in all caps, if necessary - will somehow make it so?

TD: Tanya Reaves was, indeed, denied care as she bled to death.
.
My point about her is that while you are all up in arms about a woman’s death - blaming lack of abortion, but a woman who dies FROM an abortion is tolerated - needs no action to prevent more women from dying like that?
.
Many women have died from “safe” legal abortions. Yet this is the very “treatment” you wanted for Mrs. Halappanavar.
.
Abortion ain’t no guarantee of safety:
http://afterabortion.org/2000/the-cover-up-why-u-s-abortion-mortality-statistics-are-meaningless/

“Unless a man becomes the enemy of evil, he will not only become its slave but its champion. God Himself will not help…”
- GK Chesterton

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it and eventually they will believe it.”
- a famous world leader from the last century

TrueDem - For the good of your immortal soul, I urge you to ask youself this question (you needn’t reply here - it’s for your benefit to ponder): Is there anything that could ever separate you from your devotion to abortion?
.
I feel compelled to ask this because you’ve clearly been unaffected by numerous logical arguments based on the facts at hand. By now, shouldn’t you be rethinking your position? Saying, at the very least, something like: “Let’s see what is in the hospital’s report”...?

True Dem, Your negative characterization of my comments is part of the inflammatory style we have come to expect from democrats.  There was no “tirade.”  There was no anger.  There were only statements that you projected your hostility onto.  And of course they matter.  Has your tunnel vision made you so blind that you can’t keep the bigger picture in mind while rushing to judgement? Or does the exception make your rule? As to this poor woman dying because she was in a Catholic country, two points.  First: This was a very rare exception that wasn’t handled according to that CATHOLIC COUNTRY’S LAWS. So your claim is false from the start. Why her case was handled the way it was has NOT been proven.  As I said she could have died because her doctor was racist or because someone was committing a criminal act even while they are claiming to delay treatment because of Catholic teaching.  So your statements are reactionary and premature.  Second: Your quotes around “God’s will” belie some disrespect for Him or the Church.  He said,“I put before you the choice, life or death.  Choose life.”  This isn’t a guess on the part of the Church.  It is what God expects of all Christians and it is why in the example of this woman, the Church would have chosen to let the doctors take the baby from the mom and save the mother’s life. You do realize it was a child that was in her womb, not a glob that had a heartbeat? Have you had one or more abortions?

Thank you, Pam - you helped enlighten me to something…
.
@TrueDem: When you wrote: “rules need to be changed to favor human life over God’s will”, you were clearly pitting “human life” against God’s will.
.
In a later comment, you reinforced this belief. So, I am wondering:
.
1. What, exactly, did you mean by “human life” in this case?
.
2. It’s pretty clear that you understand that the Church speaks for God’s will. Your recent post makes it clear that you think the Church’s teaching is that the doctors were not allowed to do anything at all while a fetal heartbeat was detectible. But, as we’ve been trying to clarify for you: that is NOT a teaching of the Church, nor Irish law, nor the Irish medical board’s recommended procedures (all of these have been reported, above). The facts of the Church’s actual teaching have been explained to you repeatedly, with links to sources. Yet you reiterate your original claim: the Church’s teaching killed this poor woman.
.
So, how do you reconcile the facts (Church teaching was not followed) with your opinion that Church teaching is the reason for her death?

Wow! this keeps on going!, before it was 4more now is truedem??, these people are obviously NOT Catholics or are they the same?? mmmm…. I wonder what are they doing here? good luck to all the people that are answering and questioning these people.

In my humble opinion…it is a waste of time.

God bless!

@ MaryS

the catholic church always supports republicans.  evil greedy republicans.  no one republican in todays congress can be compared to lincoln so don’t even go there. 

and on abortion:  why didn’t the republicans make abortion illegal when they had the chance?  ( you remember when your wonderful republican george w was president with a republican controlled congress)  i will tell you why they didn’t make it illegal—NO CATHOLIC WOULD EVER VOTE FOR THEM AGAIN!  if it weren’t for the abotion issue, republicans would lose 90% of the catholic vote

may god bless your republican mind and open up your mind so you can finally see the light.  thank you

FYI—the spam police forced me to change my information again. I wouldn’t want you to think I just left you.
.
mso—you are missing my point. I think both women should have been saved. Tanya Reeves likely died because something happened during the abortion procedure, WHICH SHE ASKED FOR AND CONSENTED TO, and died from a hemorrhage as a result. It’s up to the courts to decide who is responsible.
.
People die from surgical errors far too often.
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-surgical_infections#Infection
.
Savita Halappanavar died because SHE WAS IN A CATHOLIC COUNTRY. She and her husband were told that was the reason they would not medically complete the spontaneous abortion of a non-viable fetus because the heartbeat. She was DENIED a service she begged for and physicians watched her suffer while they waited for the fetal heart to stop.
.
Planned Parenthood and the physicians who performed the procedure that Tonya Reeves wanted done will have to answer for whatever happened, and it will be judged as either malpractice or a complication of surgery. It will no have to justify WHY they were performing the abortion.
.
Savita Halappanavar did not come to the University Hospital Galway for an abortion, she came for emergency treatment for a spontaneous and inevitable abortion (miscarriage).
.
Recounting her final days in UHG, he said: “Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said: ‘As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can’t do anything.’
.
“Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [an Indian Hindu] said: ‘I am neither Irish nor Catholic,’ but they said there was nothing they could do.
.
In short—Tonya Reeves died from surgical complications. Savita Halappanavar died because of Catholic doctrine.

I just found this article on Tonya Reeves—
.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/mitchell/13927970-452/woman-dies-after-abortion-at-planned-parenthood-clinic.html
.
Tonya Reaves, 24, of the 1500 block of N. Kildare, was pronounced dead at 11:20 p.m. Friday at Northwestern Memorial Hospital, according to the Cook County Medical Examiner’s office. She was taken to the hospital from the Planned Parenthood clinic at 18 S. Michigan Ave.
.
An autopsy done Saturday listed the woman’s cause of death to be hemorrhage, with a cervical dilation and evacuation, as well as an intrauterine pregnancy as contributing causes, according to the medical examiner’s office. Her death was ruled an accident.
.
Calls to local and national Planned Parenthood offices were not returned.

Mary_S—I am extremely offended by you accusation that I’m “devoted to abortion.” It is a necessary evil, sometimes, that “a glob that has a heartbeat” (yes, Pam) that would never even draw a breath outside the womb must and should be removed from the uterus of the mother to give her every chance to survive.
.
Now Savita will never have children. Her husband and family are bereaved, and they are NOT Catholic.
.
My respect for the Catholic Church does not extend to the point where it sanctions letting a woman die for the sake of “a glob with a heartbeat.”

Folks, after seeing all the good faith back and forth with 4more a/k/a truedem,k/n/a democracyrules: I believe it is long past time and completely advisable to end their charade by:

(1)invoking the “Dilbert Rule” and
(2)keeping them in our prayers and give them to the Lord. After all He made them whether they believe it or not.

For those not familiar with the “Dilbert Rule” for preventing or ending extended useless arguments it is as follows:

“Always remember to never argue with an idiot because they will shout you down first and then beat you with their experience”

4more et al have certainly meet this test. It’s impossible to have a meaningful discussion with anyone who belligerently believes that their rule(s) trumps God, the creator of all life. The last evidence of their clinical idiocy is when the group doubles down by insisting that the rules of God, His Church and His faithful be changed to conform with theirs. Now that’s what you call arrogance on steroids. And they accuse us of being the sick ones because we don’t buy that. Praise God and thank them for the compliment. But it’s time to invoke Dilbert. Even Christ instructed his apostles to shake the dust off their feet and move on where they were not accepted. We should do no less while keeping them in our prayers.

Thank you, jacobum, for that much-needed dose of sanity. God bless you!
.
Dust off, prayer on. Amen!

In 1931, the Vatican issued an encyclical which in essence said “Mothers who die in childbirth are martyrs…and should be happy to serve as such.” The Catholic Church valued the life of the child over the life of the mother, and Irish doctors followed suit.
.
You might want—no, wait—you probably don’t want to read this 2008 report on Miscarriage Management in Catholic Hospitals.
.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2636458/
.
Physicians working in Catholic-owned hospitals in all 4 US regions of our study disclosed experiences of being barred from completing emergency uterine evacuation while fetal heart tones were present, even when medically indicated.
.
As a result, they had to delay care or transfer patients to non–Catholic-owned facilities.
.
Some physicians violated the authority and protocol of the ethics committee to deliver what they considered safe medical care that reflected the standard of care learned in residency.
.
You want to Dilbert me because you can’t handle the truth. Whatever you do, it’s Catholic policies that caused Savita Halappanavar’s death.
.
I wrote earlier that I looked forward to learning you went to heaven, but now I’m sure it will never happen.

@justin: Where did you get the idea I was Republican? I voted for the Constitution Party in 2008 and again 2012, because their platform was closer to Catholic values than any other.
.
I agree with your assessment that the GOP is unlikely to seriously address the abortion issue, because so many of them are more interested in their own power than in actually serving the folks who reliably vote for them again and again. But I think more and more pro-lifers are waking up to this fact, so I remain hopeful for a better future. The current administration is likely going to help: they’ll make their own values so clear, that even the head-in-the-sand-ostriches will sit up and take notice.
.
But I think you do yourself and your cause a disservice when you jump to conclusions and use such harsh words. People shun that kind of blindness and negativity.
.
More prayer, less shouting, please. Pax.

4moreLyinDumocrat: a few FACTS for you:
.
Pope Pius XII 1951 (still in effect today): “If, for example, the saving of the life of the future mother, independently of her pregnant condition, should urgently require a surgical act or other therapeutic treatment which would have as an accessory consequence, in no way desired or intended, but inevitable, the death of the fetus, such an act could no longer be called a direct attempt on an innocent life. Under these conditions the operation can be lawful, like other similar medical interventions — granted always that a good of high worth is concerned, such as life, and that it is not possible to postpone the operation until after the birth of the child, nor to have recourse to other efficacious remedies.”
- from http://www.hli.org/index.php/cloning/400?task=view
.
“The decision to induce labour early would be fully in compliance with the law and the current guidelines set out for doctors by the Irish Medical Council. Those guidelines allow interventions to treat women where necessary, even if that treatment indirectly results in the death to the baby. If they aren’t being followed, laws about abortion won’t change that. The issue then becomes about medical protocols being followed in hospitals and not about the absence of legal abortion in Ireland.”
- from http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/eils-mulroy-prochoice-side-must-not-hijack-this-terrible-event-3294723.html
.
“
Why, in this instance, did the hospital not induce (as it could and should) and is its decision not to induce reflective of a wider institutional failure?
...
In Savita’s situation, inducing labour to save her life would not necessarily have conflicted with Catholic moral teaching, either. In 1951, Pope Pius XII explicitly ruled that such a procedure “can be lawful.” If it is true, as the Halappanavar family claims, that the Galway doctors said they would not provide a termination because “this is a Catholic country”, then they got their theology unforgivably wrong.
.
Savita Halappanavar’s death demands investigation and answers. Aside from giving justice to her family, the implications of any investigation for the wider abortion debate are so wide-ranging that it is crucial that we get the facts unbiased and 100 per cent accurate. Alas, such objectivity is not always applied when it comes to media reporting of the Irish and/or Catholic approach to abortion.
“
- from http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100189912/irelands-abortion-laws-we-need-to-get-the-facts-straight/
.
“
The fact is, however, that this tragic death by no means justifies any change to Irish law — or medical practice, if it is properly carried out according to Irish Medical Council guidelines. Eilís Mulroy has a comment piece today, also in The Irish Independent, under the headline “Pro-choice side must not hijack this terrible event”, asking the obvious question: “Was Ms Halappanavar treated in line with existing obstetrical practice in Ireland? In this kind of situation the baby can be induced early (though is very unlikely to survive). The decision to induce labour early would be fully in compliance with the law and the current guidelines set out for doctors by the Irish Medical Council.
.
Those guidelines allow interventions to treat women where necessary, even if that treatment indirectly results in the death to the baby. If they aren’t being followed, laws about abortion won’t change that.
...
This principle has always governed Irish medical practice, and it looks very much as though it should have done here.
“
- from http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2012/11/15/the-tragic-death-of-savita-halappanavar-should-not-be-exploited-to-sweep-away-irish-abortion-law-under-which-she-could-legally-have-been-saved/
.
.
.
Conclusion: malpractice or incorrect application of Irish medical board’s best practices was the cause of Savita’s death. So, with all of these facts presented to you again and again, your continued denial of them and loud repetition of blame on the Church is more like a childish tantrum than a mature response to the facts presented.
.
Another little cheerful fact for you: The Church is bigger than you are. You can’t change its teaching. One day, you will die, but the Church will last until Christ returns. And abortion will be still be wrong every single day, no matter how loud you yell.

4moreLyinDumocrat: a few FACTS for you:
.
Pope Pius XII 1951 (still in effect today): “If, for example, the saving of the life of the future mother, independently of her pregnant condition, should urgently require a surgical act or other therapeutic treatment which would have as an accessory consequence, in no way desired or intended, but inevitable, the death of the fetus, such an act could no longer be called a direct attempt on an innocent life. Under these conditions the operation can be lawful, like other similar medical interventions — granted always that a good of high worth is concerned, such as life, and that it is not possible to postpone the operation until after the birth of the child, nor to have recourse to other efficacious remedies.”
- from http://www.hli.org/index.php/cloning/400?task=view
.
“The decision to induce labour early would be fully in compliance with the law and the current guidelines set out for doctors by the Irish Medical Council. Those guidelines allow interventions to treat women where necessary, even if that treatment indirectly results in the death to the baby. If they aren’t being followed, laws about abortion won’t change that. The issue then becomes about medical protocols being followed in hospitals and not about the absence of legal abortion in Ireland.”
- from http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/eils-mulroy-prochoice-side-must-not-hijack-this-terrible-event-3294723.html
.
“
Why, in this instance, did the hospital not induce (as it could and should) and is its decision not to induce reflective of a wider institutional failure?
...
In Savita’s situation, inducing labour to save her life would not necessarily have conflicted with Catholic moral teaching, either. In 1951, Pope Pius XII explicitly ruled that such a procedure “can be lawful.” If it is true, as the Halappanavar family claims, that the Galway doctors said they would not provide a termination because “this is a Catholic country”, then they got their theology unforgivably wrong.
.
Savita Halappanavar’s death demands investigation and answers. Aside from giving justice to her family, the implications of any investigation for the wider abortion debate are so wide-ranging that it is crucial that we get the facts unbiased and 100 per cent accurate. Alas, such objectivity is not always applied when it comes to media reporting of the Irish and/or Catholic approach to abortion.
“
- from http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100189912/irelands-abortion-laws-we-need-to-get-the-facts-straight/
.
“
The fact is, however, that this tragic death by no means justifies any change to Irish law — or medical practice, if it is properly carried out according to Irish Medical Council guidelines. Eilís Mulroy has a comment piece today, also in The Irish Independent, under the headline “Pro-choice side must not hijack this terrible event”, asking the obvious question: “Was Ms Halappanavar treated in line with existing obstetrical practice in Ireland? In this kind of situation the baby can be induced early (though is very unlikely to survive). The decision to induce labour early would be fully in compliance with the law and the current guidelines set out for doctors by the Irish Medical Council.
.
Those guidelines allow interventions to treat women where necessary, even if that treatment indirectly results in the death to the baby. If they aren’t being followed, laws about abortion won’t change that.
...
This principle has always governed Irish medical practice, and it looks very much as though it should have done here.
“
- from http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2012/11/15/the-tragic-death-of-savita-halappanavar-should-not-be-exploited-to-sweep-away-irish-abortion-law-under-which-she-could-legally-have-been-saved/
.
.
.
Conclusion: malpractice or incorrect application of Irish medical board’s best practices was the cause of Savita’s death. So, with all of these facts presented to you again and again, your continued denial of them and loud repetition of blame on the Church is more like a childish tantrum than a mature response to the facts presented.
.
The Dilbert Rule has been invoked because YOU are ignoring every fact presented to you.
.
Another little cheerful fact for you: The Church is bigger than you are. You can’t change its teaching. One day, you will die, but the Church will last until Christ returns. And abortion will be still be wrong every single day, no matter how loud you yell.

4moreLyinDumocrat: a few FACTS for you:
.
Pope Pius XII 1951 (still in effect today): “If, for example, the saving of the life of the future mother, independently of her pregnant condition, should urgently require a surgical act or other therapeutic treatment which would have as an accessory consequence, in no way desired or intended, but inevitable, the death of the fetus, such an act could no longer be called a direct attempt on an innocent life. Under these conditions the operation can be lawful, like other similar medical interventions — granted always that a good of high worth is concerned, such as life, and that it is not possible to postpone the operation until after the birth of the child, nor to have recourse to other efficacious remedies.”
- from http://www.hli.org/index.php/cloning/400?task=view
.
“The decision to induce labour early would be fully in compliance with the law and the current guidelines set out for doctors by the Irish Medical Council. Those guidelines allow interventions to treat women where necessary, even if that treatment indirectly results in the death to the baby. If they aren’t being followed, laws about abortion won’t change that. The issue then becomes about medical protocols being followed in hospitals and not about the absence of legal abortion in Ireland.”
- from http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/eils-mulroy-prochoice-side-must-not-hijack-this-terrible-event-3294723.html

...cont’d…
“
Why, in this instance, did the hospital not induce (as it could and should) and is its decision not to induce reflective of a wider institutional failure?
...
In Savita’s situation, inducing labour to save her life would not necessarily have conflicted with Catholic moral teaching, either. In 1951, Pope Pius XII explicitly ruled that such a procedure “can be lawful.” If it is true, as the Halappanavar family claims, that the Galway doctors said they would not provide a termination because “this is a Catholic country”, then they got their theology unforgivably wrong.
.
Savita Halappanavar’s death demands investigation and answers. Aside from giving justice to her family, the implications of any investigation for the wider abortion debate are so wide-ranging that it is crucial that we get the facts unbiased and 100 per cent accurate. Alas, such objectivity is not always applied when it comes to media reporting of the Irish and/or Catholic approach to abortion.
“
- from http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100189912/irelands-abortion-laws-we-need-to-get-the-facts-straight/

- - cont’d - - -
“
The fact is, however, that this tragic death by no means justifies any change to Irish law — or medical practice, if it is properly carried out according to Irish Medical Council guidelines. Eilís Mulroy has a comment piece today, also in The Irish Independent, under the headline “Pro-choice side must not hijack this terrible event”, asking the obvious question: “Was Ms Halappanavar treated in line with existing obstetrical practice in Ireland? In this kind of situation the baby can be induced early (though is very unlikely to survive). The decision to induce labour early would be fully in compliance with the law and the current guidelines set out for doctors by the Irish Medical Council.
.
Those guidelines allow interventions to treat women where necessary, even if that treatment indirectly results in the death to the baby. If they aren’t being followed, laws about abortion won’t change that.
...
This principle has always governed Irish medical practice, and it looks very much as though it should have done here.
“
- from http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2012/11/15/the-tragic-death-of-savita-halappanavar-should-not-be-exploited-to-sweep-away-irish-abortion-law-under-which-she-could-legally-have-been-saved/
.
.
.
Conclusion: malpractice or incorrect application of Irish medical board’s best practices was the cause of Savita’s death. So, with all of these facts presented to you again and again, your continued denial of them and loud repetition of blame on the Church is more like a childish tantrum than a mature response to the facts presented.
.
The Dilbert Rule has been invoked because YOU are ignoring every fact presented to you.
.
Another little cheerful fact for you: The Church is bigger than you are. You can’t change its teaching. One day, you will die, but the Church will last until Christ returns. And abortion will be still be wrong every single day, no matter how loud you yell the same ting over and over.

Mikey—I won’t insult morons by calling you one.
.
All that you wrote is unimportant. What is important is that the Medical Ethics Committee forbid terminating Mrs. Halappanavar’s aborting pregnancy because the fetal heart was still beating. This is a Catholic-based decision that put the fetal heartbeat above Mrs. Halappanavar’s health and life.
.
Now, I know there are conditions for terminating a pregnancy under Catholic doctrine—Most of the provisions grudgingly approve the removal of a dead fetus from the mother’s womb. I know about the “double effect” standard that allows the medical treatment to save a mother’s life, even if that treatment also indirectly causes the abortion of a live fetus.
.
The point is that the “double effect” rule did not apply, according to the Catholic ethics committee, because abortion, if done in time to prevent her infection, would have directly “killed” the fetus—as Catholics believe the heartbeat is the one criteria that makes a fetus a living person. It is the Catholic practice not to abort unless and until the fetal heartbeat is no longer present.
.
That is why the ethics committee would not allow the abortion until the heartbeat stopped.
,
I’ve said before, I don’t want to change Catholic teaching—I just want to get it out of Medical Ethics.

True Democrat: Pants on fire
.
They say: “Sin makes you stupid”.
.
I guess your total and complete devotion to procured abortion makes you unable to see clearly that inducing labor was called for, was 100% supported - medically and ethically and ecclesiastically - and would be healthier for the mother, to boot.
.
shaking the dust off my feet

Mikey-
.
Unless you have proof, you just blowing a lot of stinking hot air from your !@#$%.
.

@TD: You wrote: “the Medical Ethics Committee forbid terminating Mrs. Halappanavar’s aborting pregnancy because the fetal heart was still beating. This is a Catholic-based decision” - Did you not read the many, MANY links people have provided for you??
.
What all of the medical experts recommend - and Catholic teaching allows!!!! - is inducing labor. Note that inducing labor is far, far safer for the mother than abortion (D&E being the most common for 14+ weeks). That the child would likely not survive induction is a tragic, though secondary, consequence. As in the statement by Pope Pius quoted earlier: it is a classic case of the double effect. And so it is allowed.
.
This is exactly what the Irish medical boards and all medical experts are saying about this case: it was allowed by law - and by the Church - but was not done, and we won’t know why until the reports are in. If the doctor thought that he wasn’t allowed to induce, then he was wrong. The doctor was wrong, not the laws that he didn’t follow.
.
Abortion would not have helped, and would have increased the mother’s risks. Induction was called for, but was not done. These are the facts, yet you’ve been incapable of comprehending them. Maybe Mikey’s assessment is correct about your mental state being deficient because of your moral state.
.
Then you wrote: “I’ve said before, I don’t want to change Catholic teaching…” but you have said that several times!
.
—-
one example - Posted by True Democrat on Sunday, Nov 18, 2012 3:26 PM (EDT):
If Catholic precepts are the basis of the protocol for “treating” inevitable miscarriage, those rules need to be changed to favor human life over “God’s will.”
—-
.
It is because you continue to put forth falsehoods - demonstrably untrue statements - what most thinking people call “lies” - and totally ignore the facts of this case that you get the dust & Dilbert award.
.
Good-bye.

Where do you get the idea that ALL medical experts agree? Obviously Catholic and non-Catholic medical experts disagree on some things.
.
What you keep avoiding—trying to be subtle I’ll grant—is the matter of the fetal heartbeat.  The medical staff of the hospital would not abort the pregnancy until the fetal heartbeat stopped. Catholic doctrine allows for abortion when the fetus is dead—if there is a heartbeat, no matter what the cost to the mother—they would not induce labor as it was begged for by the patient, because it would involve stopping the heartbeat of the fetus. It doesn’t matter that the Church allows the death of the fetus and an indirect cause of the fetus’ death.
.
It does matter if medical ethics agree with the Catholic definition that the fetal heartbeat indicates a human life. As “Pam” wrote, it is a debate as to whether a fetal heartbeat in the period where life would be impossible out of the womb is the definition of human life—and particularly a more important human life than its mother.
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For the most part, medical ethics consider the brain as the indicator of life. The Catholic concept is that the “heartbeat” indicates human life. The Irish law has to decide which concept is correct.
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While Catholic “law” does not have to be changed, Irish law must be defined as to what is considered a human life, and which human life should be the focus of patient care. The decision will likely be contrary to at least part of Catholic “law.”
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I would agree that it is not right that Savita Halappanavar’s death should be a means for political controversy regarding Catholic doctrines, but aren’t you using the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as a means of political controversy?
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mso—you have not supported any “reason” that Catholic doctrine was not involved in the decisions of the Catholic hospital’s medical ethics committee. You have not supported and “reason” that Savita Halappanavar did not die because she was in a Catholic hospital in a Catholic country.
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The ONLY information I could find is that the Catholic Magisterium allows extraction of a fetus ONLY if there is no heartbeat, or, under circumstances that were eventually admitted as possible, as an indirect consequence of life-saving treatment for the mother.
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Please, I’m begging you—show me where it says it is OK to stop the heartbeat of a fetus whose abortion is incomplete as a means to save the life and well-being of the mother. Copy and past the text and reference the site where ever this is stated or implied.
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You will certainly be teaching me a lesson and make me ashamed of myself if you can do that.

Mr. Archbold,

America has and always will be the a melting pot. “Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.” This is a country that built a government to be free of religion because they knew of the danger that comes from combining the two. Your belief that Catholics lost the election for Mitt Romney is not only foolish but demonstrates the fundamental problem with Catholics. Times change, the year is 2012, and no religious group controls the political future of America because no religious group controls a commanding majority to do so and, even if this was possible, the electoral college protects the country from this. Catholics are not even the largest sect of Christianity in the United States, Protestants are. Which brings me back to the melting pot….

You know what? I spent the last hour trying to think of something witty and satiric and clean but after re-reading your article, I now realize that I, along with the rest of the people that have argued over your writings, have wasted our time. People, this is not a logical argument. People believe the slippery slope is a real thing; it’s not. In fact, philosophically it is considered a fallacy. There’s no proof that by allowing a woman the right to choose that the government will eventually, “drive all religion from public life.” And even if it does would that be so bad? I’m not saying we should all be atheists but would it be so bad if we kept church separate from state like our founding fathers intended? Would it be so awful if people were prevented from protesting a Marine funeral on the basis that the deceased was openly gay. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a group of homosexuals protesting a bishop’s funeral on the basis that he was Catholic. A lot of people here have written on the right to live and yet we still see reckless abandon for people’s natural rights when their lifestyle does not sync with ours. This is the melting pot that is America and if you don’t want to cooperate with others because they are different then you should repeat kindergarten until you learn to do so.

Lastly, allow me to make a plea to anyone who has cared enough to finish my rant. Stop adding fuel to the fire. Reading this article, I feel that Mr. Archbold is truly lost and no longer understands that one of the missions of the Catholic church is to exercise charity. Please people, pull yourselves away from your computers, go out and lend a helping hand, and let this man’s ramblings be just that, ramblings.

“Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.” Philippians 2:4

@TD: No one said “ALL medical experts agree”, except you: putting words in our mouths. But what we’ve been trying to show you - via links to news reports that quote medical experts - that each of those has reported that the problem was not lack of abortion, but lack of proper care.
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Based on the information available, the situation called for inducing labor, which is allowed by all, and this has been repeated to you again and again.
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You keep going on and on about abortion, but what I and a few others have been talking about is inducing labor. Why are you ignoring that??? Are you so beholden to your abortion goddess that you are incapable of comprehending or admitting that abortion is not the only answer to every pregnancy?
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Inducing labor does not purposefully kill the child. It has been used in many live births since forever. Used as a treatment for Savita’s incomplete miscarriage, induction would likely have been fatal to the child, but that is the double effect, so it would have been OK by the Church and Irish law.
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Irish law needn’t be changed, because Irish law allows for inducing labor.
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At this point, I cannot believe that you are truly unable to read and comprehend what has been presented to you again and again. My conclusion: you are purposefully ignoring these inconvenient facts in order to push an agenda. It is horribly calous and inhumane to use Savita’s death like that.
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You should be ashamed of yourself.

mso—I got home late tonight from my war against Christmas meeting, so I just scanned comments.
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I have written before that I don’t want to change Catholic “teaching” even though it obviously conflicts with secular reality. Believe what ever you want and suffer the consequences.
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Who are you to state that abortion “would not have helped?” How do you know?
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This is the ethical problem: Could the mother and child both survive? If not, could one or the other survive? If it is the mother who will live and the fetus will NEVER draw it’s first breath outside the womb, what should be done?
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As far as I understand, it is permitted that treating the mother for a life-threatening condition is acceptable even if a consequence is the death of the unborn child. (e.g. chemotherapy for cancer may cause spontaneous abortion).
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It is also acceptable to manually extract a fetus that does not have a heartbeat (i.e. “dead” fetus) from the mother if it does not happen spontaneously.
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It is NOT acceptable, according to Catholic precepts, to do anything that would “directly kill” the fetus by:
1. Inducing abortion of when a fetal heartbeat is present, or
2. any means of extracting a fetus whose heartbeat has not stopped without intervention.
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Would you believe a person is still alive if s/he had no brain or nerves, but the heart was beating?
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You may not believe me, but I would like you to tell me how my understanding of Catholic abortion principles is wrong—give me the text and/or the reference. Convince me that Catholic doctrine is compatible with medical professional ethics, and there is no conflict.
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Mrs. Halappanavar’s death is a public affair because of the perceived ethical conflict between medical professional and Catholic guidelines on the treatment of miscarriage. Non-Catholic ethics propose that the induced labor to expel the non-viable, insensate fetus could have been done before the fetal heartbeat stopped to save the mother’s life and health.
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Catholic ethics dictate that induced labor to expel the fetus before the fetal heartbeat stopped would directly cause the death of the fetus and therefore cannot be done under ANY circumstances.
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I think it is insane that everyone here thinks they have to defend the Catholic Church or think that I’m out to “destroy” Catholicism. The paranoia displayed in most of the comments here would suggest that any moral conflict with the Catholic Church is designed by the Anti-Christ.
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I am certainly no threat to Catholic faith. My experience here has confirmed that Catholics don’t learn what they don’t want to know. I am not an agent of the Anti-Christ, Satan, or the Evil Atheist Conspiracy.
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You are being needlessly abusive and hostile, merely because I’m interested in a conflict of ethical and religious principles. I expect it will become an international and inter-faith controversy that will be very interesting to watch. (I just love court-dramas!) May the best ethics win!

@Shakezulla: this country wasn’t build to be “free of religion”. It was designed that there would be no state-imposed religion. Read the 1st amendment again, and see if you can find “free of religion” in it, or in any of the founding documents.

Catholics have every right to protest because, unlike the everybody-just-get-along scenario you are describing, the Church is being persecuted, with gov’t suddenly acting as if it has the right to decide what is and is not a religious organization, and forcing everyone - not just the Church - to directly subsidize immoral drugs and procedures.

All we want is our Constitutionally-guaranteed religious freedom, like we had a couple of years ago. The Church didn’t change: the gov’t did - it’s on the attack. The Church is defending itself against that attack.

Tell me how the Church infringes on your rights. (Hint: it doesn’t.)

We aren’t adding fuel to the fire: we’re trying to put the monster back in its cage. The cage is the limited Federal gov’t envisioned by the Founding Fathers. It’d be great if we could have that back again.

IOWs: Nobody is going to force you to stop doing whatever it is you want to do that the Church says will send you to Hell. You wanna go to Hell? Fine - that is your choice. The Church can’t stop you. But forcing the Church to help you pay for it is un-American, unethical, unconstitutional, and evil.

@TD: You wrote:
“Catholic ethics dictate that induced labor to expel the fetus before the
fetal heartbeat stopped would directly cause the death of the fetus and
therefore cannot be done under ANY circumstances.”
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Please cite your source.
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That is, frankly, insane. Inducing labor is a common practice to assist in giving birth - live birth. You know: with a heartbeat. And proud parents of a beautiful newborn child.
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As I wrote: inducing labor is far safer than abortion. Inducing labor is a way of helping the woman’s body do something natural. Abortion increases the risk of infection, and is wholly unnatural. That is why abortion wouldn’t have helped: it would have put the mother at greater risk.
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You wrote: “As far as I understand, it is permitted that treating the mother for a life-threatening condition is acceptable even if a consequence is the death of the unborn child.” Correct, and that’s what inducing labor would be in this case: helping the mother’s body proceed with the miscarriage.
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Therefore, seeing as you have demonstrated a clear understanding of the principle of double effect in the life-threatening situation of a pregnant woman, why are you still ignoring the repeated “labor should have been induced” message, and clinging to your abortion, abortion, abortion?
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I’m curious: what your the abortion goddess’ name? And what do you get for your devotion?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2636458/
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http://www.nwlc.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/ibis_factsheet_final.pdf
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...This Study focuses on Catholic hospitals as the largest religiously-affiliated provider in the United States,iv and uncovers disturbing examples of treatment practices that increase the odds of medical complications that place women’s lives and health at risk. Catholic-affiliated hospitals are governed by the Directives, which provide guidance Most individuals and even many health providers presume that the Directives’ prohibition on the provision of a range of abortion services applies only to non-emergency pregnancy terminations of otherwise viable pregnancies. But the Study is consistent with anecdotal accounts that provide strong evidence that some hospitals and health care providers have interpreted the Directives to prohibit prompt, medically-indicated treatment of miscarriage and ectopic pregnancy, placing women’s lives and health at additional and unnecessary risk, and violating the laws intended to protect patients from such serious lapses in care.
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Hospitals are Required by Law to provide the Standard of Care,vi Yet Hospitals Fail to do so Because of their Adherence to the Directives.
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• In some of the miscarriage cases described in the Ibis Study, the standard of care requires immediate treatment. Yet doctors practicing at Catholic-affiliated hospitals were forced to delay treatment while performing medically unnecessary tests. Even though these miscarriages were inevitable and no medical treatment was available to save the fetus, some patients were transferred because doctors could still detect a fetal heartbeat or required to wait until there was no longer a fetal heartbeat to provide the needed medical care.
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• Methotrexate, a drug used to treat ectopic pregnancies, is the standard of care for some of the cases described in the Ibis Study. Yet several doctors reported that their hospitals have a blanket prohibition on the drug. This means that women for whom methotrexate would be the best treatment option are instead being subjected to unnecessary and invasive surgical treatment.
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http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/health-care/upload/Ethical-Religious-Directives-Catholic-Health-Care-Services-fifth-edition-2009.pdf
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45. Abortion (that is, the directly intended termination of pregnancy before viability or the directly intended destruction of a viable fetus) is never permitted. Every procedure whose sole immediate effect is the termination of pregnancy before viability is an abortion, which, in its moral context, includes the interval between conception and implantation of the embryo. Catholic health care institutions are not to provide abortion services, even based upon the principle of material cooperation.
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The above is pasted directly from:  Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services, Fifth Edition
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (2009)
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So you see, the Catholic Directives define abortion as any direct procedure to terminate a fetus before it is viable—the procedure that was necessary to save Mrs. Halappanavar’s HEALTH AND LIFE. The Catholic hospital followed the Catholic Directives, and not Medical standards of care for a miscarriage. They would not “induce labor” as you call it until the fetal heartbeat stopped.
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The Directives set forth principles that govern the delivery of health care services at Catholic-affiliated health care institutions. Each hospital’s administration, the local diocese and the Bishop presiding over the hospital interpret these guidelines and establish their specific policies and practices.
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Refusals to treat in these circumstances are therefore not protected by the Church Amendment, 42 U.S.C. § 300a-7, which protects individuals and institutions that refuse to participate in abortion or sterilization services.
—-http://www.nwlc.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/ibis_factsheet_final.pdf

I haven’t read through this entire thread.  I just read the last 10 posts or so.  Forgive me if I am redundant.
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True Democrat, do you actually think you have more reasoning power than the best and the brightest of the ages?  Little old you.  What a laugh!
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You worship the God of convenience.
The God of self empowerment
The God of pleasure
The God of the physically strong. 
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You like to muddy the waters, but we can see right through you.  You aren’t going to convince us that Life isn’t sacred.  You aren’t going to convince us that might makes right.
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The unfortunate case in Ireland was clearly a medical debacle.  This was not a question of Abortion saving a woman’s life.  This was clearly a case where a woman died because she should have had an antibiotic drip 24 hours prior to death.
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YOU are an opportunist.  You are riding on this dead woman’s back with a bullhorn for your favorite cause.
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Dream on priest of death.

Continued—
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This is an ethical conflict between Catholic Directives and the Medical Profession’s Standard of Duty to save the mother’s life.
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“Inducing Labor” in this case would be an abortion by Catholic definition of direct method to expel a non-viable fetus with a heartbeat, knowing it will result in the “death” of the fetus. By the Catholic Directives, they did not induce labor until the fetal heartbeat stopped.
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Also, you are using the term “inducing labor” in the context of facilitating a live birth. Inducing labor in this case would have caused the fetus to die, by Catholic definition.
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In this case “inducing labor” = directly “killing the fetus” according to Catholic Directives. Get it???
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It is also an international incident, as the Halappanavars are citizens of India.
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Your expressed hostility towards me because you think I’m attacking your faith and the Catholic Church is misplaced. I do not think I can change anything about Catholic faith or the Catholic Church, even if I wanted to.
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I do have hopes that this case will get Irish law to define that the therapeutic of a non-viable fetus with a heartbeat will be an option according to the Ethical Directives of a Catholic hospital—even though that option is in conflict with Catholic Directives.

mother with a lot—
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You are among the many people here who think I “worship” evil gods. Have you considered psychiatric treatment?
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How do you know the mother wasn’t given an antibiotic drip? Were you there?.
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Have you ever heard of drug-resistant infections?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_resistance
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YOU are an opportunist.  You are riding on the fetus’s back with a bullhorn for your favorite cause.
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How was Savita Halappanavar’s life any less sacred than a dying fetus?
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@mso:

Really? The Catholic Church is being persecuted? In the words of the great Samuel L. Jackson, “Wake the !@#$% up.” If you think that Catholic’s are the victims of government persecution then you are only furthering my point that Catholic’s are out of touch with today’s world. On the other side of the world, people are being murdered for their relgious beliefs; that is persecution. And pay for what? The Catholic church is a tax exempt organization and because of this cannot show favor toward any political party so why don’t you read past the first amendment and look at the rest of the constitution. You can’t complain about what the government does when it doesn’t make one of the largest and most powerful organizations on earth pay taxes like the rest of its corporations and citizens. You sound like someone that wants the Church to be higher than the government, however, you are in the wrong century and country if this is the case.
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And so what if I want everyone to get along? I guess why the slogan four years ago was “Hope” and not “Nope”

@Shakezulla: You are correct in pointing to the worst kind of persecution in other parts of the world, and we Catholics pray for them at every Mass. Plus, the Church is the largest charitible organization on the planet (and has been for centuries - really, since it was established by Our Lord). Catholics support this great world-wide charitable effort, sending direct aid - dollars, people, and know-how - to those troubled regions. Because our persecuted brethren in foreign lands need us, and we are there with them: spiritually and materially.
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But note that what American Catholics are facing is also persecution. What we are trying to stop the persecution that has started in the U.S. before it gets to the point of bloodshed.
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Analogy: Do you try to stop the burglar from getting in? Or do you wait to see if he’s going to kill you to get your stuff?
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As to tax-exempt status: The Church never showed favor to any party or candidate. The Church did what it was created to do: preach the Truth on matters of faith and morals. This is 100% in accordance with the law in the U.S. The Church’s teachings transcend American politics. When the Church teaches that gay “marriage” and abortion are intrinsically evil, its teachings are more appealing to the R’s. When it teaches that we should support the immigrant, the poor, the unemployed, and that the death penalty is wrong, its teachings are more appealing to the D’s. Clearly, the Church is neither D nor R. It’s bigger than that, and separate from American politics.
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I am not saying that the Church should be “higher than the government”. No one is calling for a theocracy. (The Church learned its lessons from those early centuries after Constantine: because power attracts corruption, it is truly harmful when state power and Church power are one: more souls are lost.) But the Church’s teachings are certainly “higher” than any gov’t laws. The gov’t can jail me or kill me for breaking its laws, but that is nothing compared to the destination of my eternal soul.
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“We must obey God rather than men.” - Acts 5:29
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But the beauty of the U.S. Constitution and the intention of the founding Fathers is that America allows the Church to be church. There is no good reason for conflict between the Church and state. We’ve been getting along fairly well for 230+ years. Then along comes Obamacare with its HHS mandate, and suddently, the gov’t has granted itself the power to dictate to the Church.
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Think about the implication of that: the gov’t dictating to the Church. What will they dictate next? And what could ever stop them? They’ve set themselves as above the Universal Church and above even God, because the Church speaks for God. Even if they don’t believe that, they don’t have the right to force us to abandon our beliefs.
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Yes: it is persecution. Might does not make right. Please give this some serious thought.

mso—
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Your comments to Shakezulla indicate that you have forgotten the subject of Pat’s article above.
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I’m still waiting for your replies to the sources I posted at your request.
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The Church certainly does think it should be the source of medical professional ethics—and those ethics killed Savita Halappanavar.

@TD: The reports available clearly state that the mother’s death was due to a delay in administering antibiotics. Period. Since we do not have the hospital’s report yet, we do not know anything more on the medical facts than that. (A grieving husband is not a good source of medical facts.)
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An abortion - D&E being the recommended procedure for a 17-week child - would have increased her risk of infection. This is fact. http://www.livestrong.com/article/110217-dangers-risks-late-term-abortion/
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Inducing labor would have been assisting her body in what was (apparently - based on the currently available info) already under way.
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Putting Catholic teaching aside for a moment: an atheist could see clearly that the least traumatic treatment for the mother would be induction, not abortion.
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But you clearly understand Catholic teaching on this: the double effect - which you wrote about yesterday. But now you are refusing to allow that to be applied to this situation. Get up off your knees in front of the abortion goddess and THINK! Inducing labor to treat a mother who is suffering due to an incomplete miscarriage is TREATING THE MOTHER. It is, therefore, acceptable to Irish law and Cahtolic directives - per Pope Pius XII, as pointed out to you repeatedly.
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It could be argued that it is not 100% impossible for a 17-week baby to survive. Medical experts from even just 20 years ago would have said a 22-week baby would surely die outside the womb, but that is not current medical understanding. Church teaching transcends scientific knowledge: it applies at all times. Imgine this: Inducing labor could have been an opportunity for an amazing miracle!
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Even if the baby never drew a successful breath, the parents would still have been able to see and hold their infant and given that child as much comfort and love as possible in his/her dying moments. There are parents who have posted such experiences, and express great gratitude to God for the blessing of such a special opportunity.
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But abortion robs parents of even being able to see their child: D&E rips the baby limb from limb. But inducing labor would give that special moment to those grieving parents. Why do you want to take from them their last chance to see the child they conceived in love and carried for 17 weeks in hope? Abortion rips apart the baby AND their hope.
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Inducing labor would have meant not only working with the woman’s body, but would also have allowed for God to work a miracle, as He has so often done when we do His will. But abortion says “No, God - I’m going to kill this baby and prevent any miracles”. And this is your preference??
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So, let’s summarize:
- inducing labor is natural and ethical and in compliance with the law
- inducing labor allows the parents to see and hold their child, even if only briefly
- abortion is unnatural, increases risk of infection, and against the law in Ireland
- abortion robs the parents of a chance to say good-bye to their baby
So, even without God/miracles… you still advocate abortion??

Also, I notcied that you didn’t answer my question: What do you get for your devotion to abortion?

@TD: Slave.

Just came across this great - short! - video on the topic of the Irsh woman’s tragic death. (This should be helpful for the obstinate abortion activists who can’t comprehend what they read):
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——>  http://youtu.be/cVGvUF217us
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Posted statement along with that video:
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“
We extend our deepest condolences to the husband and family of Savita Halappanavar at this very difficult time.
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It is important to remember that Irish doctors are always obliged to intervene to save the life of a mother - even if that risks the life of her baby. In fact, the Medical Council are very clear in this regard.
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Their guidelines state that doctors will be struck off if they don’t intervene to save the life of a mother. The result of the investigation into Ms Halappanavar’s death will make the facts known. May she Rest In Peace.
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IS ABORTION EVER MEDICALLY NECESSARY TO SAVE A MOTHER’S LIFE?
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No. Experts tell us that abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a mother. There are NO conditions arising in pregnancy that can ONLY be treated by directly ending the life of the unborn child.
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That’s what the medical evidence and the testimony of leading medical experts proves.
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There are 4 important points to remember:
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A. Abortion is the deliberate and intentional destruction of an unborn child
Medical treatment is any treatment needed to save a pregnant woman’s life - including premature delivery of the baby if required. Even though the baby may not survive, every reasonable attempt to save the baby’s life would be part of the medical intervention.
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B. These medical treatments are NOT abortions, they are not considered abortion by the professional, and it’s both dishonest and insensitive to mothers to pretend otherwise.
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C. If ANY medical condition arises during pregnancy, such as cancer or ectopic pregnancy, doctors in Ireland will ALWAYS treat the mother even if that gives rise to the unintentional death of their baby. That’s because the intent of this treatment is to save the mother, not to kill the baby. And that’s NOT abortion
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D. The guidelines of the Irish Medical Council state that doctors are obliged to give all necessary medical treatment to pregnant women, even if causes the unintentional death of their unborn child. Furthermore, they state that if doctors fail to treat women in these situations, they may be struck off the register.
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See full citations and more information here: http://www.thelifeinstitute.net/current-projects/abortion-never-saves-a-life/
“

Thank you, mother-with-lots. But, at this point, I’vc come to the conclusion posted by jacobum on Monday, Nov 19, 2012 1:07 AM.
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It’s time to shake the dust off our feet. TD has all of the info needed to arrive at the logical conclusion, but refuses to do so.
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God is the ultimate gentleman: He won’t force us to turn to Him, though He will always be there, waiting for us to do so. As TD digs in deeper - farther from Him - let us continue our prayers for her conversion.
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I’m shaking the dust from my feet, and not looking back.
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Go with God’s peace, mother-with-lots. And thank you for lending your voice to this cause!

@True Dem, one of the turning points in my faith was when a priest pointed out to me that ANYTHING that we give priority to that takes the place of God, and the worship that is rightfully His, is idolatrous.  While some might make golf or acquiring material goods or an adulterous affair their God—or idol, there is a special heinousness which comes with putting sexual cravings before God, and the child immolation that necessarily comes with it.  Some argue quite convincingly that this is actually Satanic.  Life is sacred.  Evil seeks to destroy.

@mso, your are right.  True Dem likes to hear himself talk.  We’re feeding his narcissism and abortion mania.
I hope you enjoy Thanksgiving!  My husband and I will start collaborating on our feast for 23 tonight.  Besides our big family, there is something extra to celebrate, our new pregnancy!  How good it is to love, listen to, and serve, the God of LIFE.
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“You are Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it”.

mso—you brought up a number of things to address.
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“The reports available clearly state that the mother’s death was due to a delay in administering antibiotics. Period. Since we do not have the hospital’s report yet, we do not know anything more on the medical facts than that. (A grieving husband is not a good source of medical facts.)”
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It is true, the exact details of her treatment have not been released, and will likely not be released anytime soon, as the case will eventually have to go to trial.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/savita-alappanavar-death-unanswered-questions
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Any woman in labour, whether her labour is proving straightforward or not, is at risk of infection once her waters break, as the waters protect both her and the baby from infection.
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Savita appeared to be in trouble as early as Sunday. The apparent failure to recognise that risk then, and to start her on antibiotics until the Tuesday night, will be the most urgent question for those investigating.
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The above is a professional opinion, but it probably will be the focus of the medical inquiry because the direct cause of Savita’s death was the infection.
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That obviously means the conflict between medical ethics and Catholic ethics on whether Savita should have been denied an abortion to complete her miscarriage while there was a fetal heartbeat will likely be set aside in the medical investigation. The fact that they were told that an abortion could not be done because it was a Catholic country may be a sore issue between Catholic pro-life groups and non-Catholic pro-choice groups, but not become a clerical issue.
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I will be disappointed should the ethical conflict on aborting a fetus with a heartbeat does not become a political/religious issue in the news. It would have been interesting to see how the conflict worked out.
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It does not change my view about what is the ethical conflict. Savita may have died because she was not given antibiotics until it was too late, but she sill begged for the abortion, which in other countries would have been an acceptable option, because of the Catholic decision to wait until the fetal heart stopped beating on its own.
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Also, I will owe some apology to mother with a lot because I will have to concede that an antibiotic drip could have saved her life if the medical records reveal that it was not administered when she was admitted to the hospital. The infection might not have developed at all, however, had the abortion been performed earlier in her treatment.
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Current news:
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/20/savita-halappanavar-abortion-death-inquiry
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Three doctors from the Galway hospital where dentist Savita Halappanavar died on 28 October after being refused an abortion have been taken off an inquiry into her death. Her husband Praveen Halappanavar had objected to the inclusion of the medics from University Hospital Galway.
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....Praveen Halappanavar had threatened to withhold his wife’s medical records from the inquiry unless its makeup was changed. His solicitor, Gerard O’Donnell, said he had no faith in the health service executive. Savita Halappanavar was 17 weeks into her pregnancy and, according to her husband, repeatedly asked for a termination but was told there was a foetal heartbeat and that “this is a Catholic country.”
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So the investigation will be neutral and based on medical professional ethics and not biased by being connected to Galway University hospital. If you read the article, you will note that the new investigator(s) will be a director of OB/GYN in a London hospital, where abortions are legal.
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So it will still be interesting for a while.

I was doing a lot of internet research for a non-Catholic source of information when replying to mso, so I missed a few new replies.
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mso & mother—you keep confusing “abortion” with “induced labor.” If they “induced labor” for Savita, that would have been an abortion by Catholic definition. Also, abortion does not ALWAYS mean it would have been a D&E, tearing the fetus apart—it could have been “induced labor” by medication as you keep insisting would have been approved under Catholic doctrine.
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“Induced labor” in this case would have been an procedure that was intended to end the life of a non-viable fetus before it became viable. That is forbidden by Catholic decree without exception. Look at what I copied above.
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The pro-life resource you cited that declares that abortion is never necessary to save a woman’s life runs contrary to the records of many women who have to be transferred from Catholic hospitals that refuse to do abortions, even when physicians have determined it is the only way to save the mother’s life.
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Many people on this site have referred to that old canard—medical research and statistics show that it is simply not true. Pro-life religious idiots tend to ignore government statistics that don’t support what they want to believe.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/10/22/no-life-saving-abortions-lie-and-why-it-persists
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The end result? Medically futile pregnancies—designated as such because a doctor has confirmed that the fetus would have no ability to survive meaningfully outside of the womb—would be terminated in a way most inclined to produce a live birth. No drugs could be given that would stop the heart before a process is undergone. It would be likely that in the case of those fetuses on the edge of viability or a few weeks beyond, the woman carrying the fetus would be forced to undergo a cesarean section in order to facilitate a live birth.
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.... It isn’t “pro-life” to force women to risk their lives on behalf of a child that may or may not survive, or to make her put herself into physical danger before she is allowed to terminate a pregnancy. If politicians were truly interested in growing families, they would be just as anxious to preserve maternal health in order for women to be able to give birth to larger families rather than put her life at risk on behalf of a child that isn’t likely to survive.
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@True Democrat/Satan
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You are a creature of lies and manipulation.

Potentially life-threatening conditions during pregnancy include serious heart conditions, ectopic pregnancy (in which the egg implants in the fallopian tube and bursts without prompt termination of pregnancy), pre-eclampsia (extreme high blood pressure and protein in urine, which can cause liver damage), and more. A pregnant cancer patient’s s life can also be at risk if she is unable to undergo chemotheraphy, radiation, or in surgery for cancers in the reproductive organs.  Accident victims in need of certain emergency surgeries and female patients in comas are other examples where continuing a pregnancy may put a woman’s life at risk.

Medical reasons for abortion, while not as common, present much more difficult choices for the pregnant woman. Some women end up choosing abortion to prevent the birth of a child with serious medical problems while others have their own medical issues that could mean risking death or severe injury if the pregnancy is carried to term.
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Health of the Baby
For a couple who was actively trying to conceive, finding out their baby will be born with a serious birth defect can be a devastating experience. Amniocentesis, usually performed between 14 and 20 weeks, can detect a variety of chromosome abnormalities, neural tube defects, and genetic disorders. The accuracy of amniocentesis findings is thought to be 99.4 percent. Some parents choose to undergo the procedure because they want to be prepared if they will be having a baby with a medical complication, while others want to be able to decide if the pregnancy should be terminated.
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Some of the conditions that can be detected via amniocentesis include:
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Down Syndrome
Trisomy 18
Spina Bifida
Muscular Dystrophy
Cystic Fibrosis
Sickle Cell Disease
Tay-Sachs
Anencephaly
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It should be noted that while some of the birth defects listed above are medically classified as “incompatible with life,” others are not. This means that the decision whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term must consider what type of life the child will be able to lead as he or she grows. Balancing quality of life concerns with the desire to begin or expand one’s family is never easy.
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Health of the Mother
Although most women are able to successfully carry a pregnancy to term with no risk to their own health, there are some women who have medical conditions that make it difficult or dangerous to give birth. When faced with a pregnancy under these circumstances, abortion is one option that may be considered.
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Examples of some of the conditions that can complicate a pregnancy include:
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Cancer
Heart disease
Diabetes
Autoimmune disorders
HIV
AIDS
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Certain other sexually transmitted diseases
Abortions done to preserve the mental health of the mother, such as when the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest, may also be classified as one of the valid medical reasons for abortion. Women who choose to have abortions when the pregnancy is the result of an abusive relationship may also be considered to fall into this category.

SAFETY OF ABORTION

• The risk of abortion complications is minimal: Fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.[11]
• Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or birth defect, and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries.[12]
• Exhaustive reviews by panels convened by the U.S. and British governments have concluded that there is no association between abortion and breast cancer. There is also no indication that abortion is a risk factor for other cancers.[12]
• In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women’s mental health.[13]
• The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks.[14]
• Fifty-eight percent of abortion patients say they would have liked to have had their abortion earlier. Nearly 60% of women who experienced a delay in obtaining an abortion cite the time it took to make arrangements and raise money.[15]
• Teens are more likely than older women to delay having an abortion until after 15 weeks of pregnancy, when the medical risks associated with abortion are significantly higher.[15]

How Is a Second Trimester Abortion Done?
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Although medication-based abortion procedures can be used during the first trimester, this option is not available for a women in the second trimester of her pregnancy. Types of surgical abortion procedures performed during the second trimester include:
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Dilation & Curettage (D & C) involves using a sharp instrument to remove tissue from inside the uterus. This procedure usually takes less than 10 minutes, although it may take a bit longer if you wish to have an intrauterine device (IUD) put in place for long-term birth control at this time. After this type of abortion, it is common to experience spotting for about two weeks as well as minor menstrual-type cramps.
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Dilation & Evacuation (D & E) is a procedure that includes a combination of vacuum aspiration, dilation and curettage, and surgical instruments, such as forceps, to remove fetal tissue. The procedure usually takes about 30 minutes to perform and is the most common type of second trimester abortion. Spotting and minor menstrual-type cramps are the most common side effects of the procedure.
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Induction abortion is a rare type of abortion procedure in which salt water, urea, or potassium chloride is injected into the amniotic sac, prostaglandins are inserted into the vagina, and pitocin is injected intravenously. When asking “How is a second trimester abortion done?”, remember that less than one percent of all abortions are performed using this method and it is most commonly used when the fetus suffers from severe abnormalities and the parents wish to have time to be with their child after the procedure. Induction abortion is also used when genetic testing is required because the couple wishes to try to conceive again in the future.

How Are Third Trimester Abortions Performed?
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T.here are two main ways a third trimester abortion can be performed:

Early labor induction, which is most often used when the fetus suffers from a severe abnormality that was not detected earlier in the pregnancy and would make it highly unlikely he would survive long after birth.
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Intact dilation and extraction (IDX or D&X), which is sometimes referred to as partial-birth abortion in pro-life literature and most often used when the health of the mother is being threatened and she wishes to try to preserve her future fertility.
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http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Third_Trimester_Abortion

True Democrat gives us many words, signifying nothing.
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“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.”
- Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen
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Meanwhile, look at what some actual experts have to say:
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/11/21/doctors-no-reason-to-ok-abortion-after-savita-halappanavars-death/
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Plus, this article has some more info that points, yet again, to the fact that an abortion would not have saved her life:
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/in-ireland-abortion-case-pro-lifers-warn-against-snap-judgments/
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Hey, True Democrat: you’ve lost this one. Give it a rest.
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Venerable Fulton Sheen also said, “It is easy to find truth; it is hard to face it, and harder still to follow it.”

I’ll wait till we learn what the London MD’s have to say about it. Catholics have been proven to be dishonest.
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I had a lot of links, but it looks like spam to the spam police here because they have Catholic and scandals in the link addresses. I’ll check later, but I doubt they’ll be posted.
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Another example of Catholics telling me to shut up instead of giving reasonable, logical replies.

BTY—it’s about time NCR published the story. Ireland will have to establish specific laws when abortion can be performed to save a mother’s life. Regardless of the outcome, it contributed to Savita’s long suffering and weakened her body so it couldn’t fight infection.
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Another reason Ireland will have laws that conflict with Catholic s**t

Our battle is against principalities and powers, not individuals.  Some individuals have shown that they have chosen darkness over light, by what they write.  I hope that readers will discern what is really being written.  True dem for instance throws out statistics(lies?) with no resources and uses many qualifyers like, “shouldn’t happen”, “if”, “meaningful life” (that last one is downright scary).  Many posts ignore the facts that debunk misstatements written and then also confuse issues or change the subject. For instance the Catholic Church, not individuals within it, but the teaching of Jesus Christ and tradition that has been handed down to us, teach that abortion and same sex relations are not goods.  They harm us.  True Dem talks about people who have been in trouble before abortion was legal and ended up killing themselves and their child by having unsafe abortions.  To a baby in the womb every abortion is unsafe but regardless, the deaths of women from unsafe abortions kind of makes the point that the CHOICE was not a good one and was harmful!!!!  Making the bad choice easier doesn’t make it any better.  Someone dies with every abortion and those human beings,(NOT blobs with heartbeats but unique growing individuals with bodies and organs and brains and a life),would be among us where true love and charity are fostered as opposed to fear and desperation and death.  That is the real choice in all these issues.  Do you want to live in love or fear?  Charity or judgement?  Wisdom or selfishness? What Shakezulla sees as lack of charity is sometimes just exposing the darkness.  Satan loves to sneak in the back door or make a sin look appealing.  Denying actions have consequences and bad choices often lead to hardening of the heart and more bad choices is dishonest.  It is a lived reality that we all experience when we don’t discipline ourselves.  But in all this negativity and garbage are sheep following the Truth and sheep who are lost.  We cannot be responding so harshly.  It seems like the enemy is using our Truths in harsh tones to destroy love for the Truth.  Most of us have fallen for it. Please reread your posts and realize that some people are writing just to destroy and answering with name calling and anger helps them not Christ.

One day, TrueDem will be reading his posts to God and trying to explain them.

Excellent points, Pam. Twisting the meaning of words to make them sound better doesn’t fly in my book. Lies are lies.
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And Kacey, too - excellent point! So true.
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I was happy to read that Ireland is standing strong against legalized abortion, despite this poor woman’s death. They can see through the lies. Thanks be to God!
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Just saw this article today:
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http://www.lifenews.com/2012/11/23/report-number-of-women-dying-from-legal-abortions-doubles/

The same CDC report that showed the decrease in the number of abortions also showed that it was because of the decrease in unintended pregnancies due to increased use of contraception:
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<i>However, data from the 2002 and 2006–2010 NSFGs show that contraceptive use among women at risk for unintended pregnancy has decreased (84,85). Moreover, although use of the most effective forms of reversible contraception (i.e., intrauterine devices and hormonal implants, which are as effective as sterilization at preventing unintended pregnancy [86]) has increased (85,87), use of these methods in the United States remains among the lowest of any developed country (87), and no additional progress has been made toward reducing unintended pregnancy (41,42). <b>Research has shown that providing no-cost contraception increases use of the most effective methods and can reduce abortion rates (88,89). Removing cost as one barrier to the use of the most effective contraceptive methods might therefore be an important way to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and consequently the number of abortions that are performed in the United States.<></i.
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http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w
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Another example of Catholic pro-life “news.”

Strange—they don’t have a comments post so someone can point out their error.

Sorry—I the emphasis codes weren’t typed correctly:

However, data from the 2002 and 2006–2010 NSFGs show that contraceptive use among women at risk for unintended pregnancy has decreased (84,85). Moreover, although use of the most effective forms of reversible contraception (i.e., intrauterine devices and hormonal implants, which are as effective as sterilization at preventing unintended pregnancy [86]) has increased (85,87), use of these methods in the United States remains among the lowest of any developed country (87), and no additional progress has been made toward reducing unintended pregnancy (41,42). Research has shown that providing no-cost contraception increases use of the most effective methods and can reduce abortion rates (88,89). Removing cost as one barrier to the use of the most effective contraceptive methods might therefore be an important way to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and consequently the number of abortions that are performed in the United States.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w

Jesus was not a Christian either, according to religious experts. He was simply speaking and teaching the true faith. People label everything for their own selfish reasons. Like the Romans labeling Jesus a Jew…he was not a Jew, he was an Israelite. Joseph was a practicing Jew but ended up following Jesus teachings. Mary was not a practicing Jew and like many of us, was said to have had many beliefs. Mary was said to be very open minded. We could learn a lot from Mary. They labeled her as well,  and lied to us about a lot of things. Everything goes back to the Origination fraud.

Why is it everyone is so worried about everyone else’s morals? In the end, don’t they have to answer for their own choices? Our house is in shambles and all we can do is talk about other peoples choices and blame them for the complete corruption of these politicians? The Supreme Court has been ruling against God for decades. The truth is, only we can reject their decisions. Dictorial power is only as powerful as we allow it to be.

Even calling Jesus an Israelite is up for debate as biblical experts have stated Jesus was born in Syria which is almost now non existent Palestine. Some Biblical scholars have come to the conclusion that Jesus actual birthdate was 9/11. Jesus would have been by modern day accounts, a Palestinian.

Ivent—it is another Catholic doctrine that Catholics must evangelize. One method to evangelize is to convince non-believers that they are unhappy, immoral, and generally unlovable until they find “Jesus”—the Jesus of the Catholic Church. Even if they lie to evangelize and win people to the faith, it’s allowed by the Church and not considered a sin..
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You see, Catholics believe humans are born in sin and they need to be saved. They believe that they are obliged to save others from the consequences (hell) of the presumed original sin. They believe the only way to save others is to get them to find Jesus and obey the Catholic Church.
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You will never be as “good” as Catholics are until you believe what they believe and stop thinking for yourself.

Why, looky here:
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http://www.lifenews.com/2012/12/03/ireland-activist-admits-savita-may-not-have-wanted-abortion/

And I’ll bet five cents “Butterscotch” the chameleon is really True Dem/Angela.  He’s deep, deep in the closet, and so uses abortion rights as a diversion from his rage about the Church’s teachings on gay sex.  Why? He doesn’t want to give it up. 
As a gay activist,he has endless time on his hands because, because…can you guess?  Yes!  No little ones to take care of, and probably someone else takes care of his bills, but not his heart.  He has endless time to worry about number one.  True Dem, look up “the worm that never dies” and reflect upon the reason why you haunt a conservative Catholic web site,K?

Some excellent points on the facts and media hype, plus a prediction for the future of abortion in Ireland:
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http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=951