The Pharisees and Sadducees couldn’t understand why Jesus wasn’t just like them, either.

If we agree with the hypothesis that the current narcissistic, secularist, materialistic, death obsessed culture of today has been accepted as the new “norm” - then Jesus would continue to be as counter-cultural as ever.

LarryW2LJ,
Yes, it’s funny now that Hollywood has become the “establishment” & we’re the counterculture.They still think they’re back in the ‘70’s & rebelling against “the Man.”

I think it’s her “push-up girdle” that’s cutting off circulation to her brain.
“Be of good cheer!” (John 16:33)
www.merrycatholic.com

Chenoweth should have challenged the premise of the interviewer’s question, because most Christians looking to what the bible says about men and women and marriage are not using the bible to “spread hate.”

‘I find it amazing all the people who think, “if Jesus were around today, He would be just like ME!”’

So do I.  Whenever I meet someone who thinks that they’re “too smart to follow the Pope,” and who uses the excuse of their “private conscience” as an entitlement—complete with self-justification—for making Christ in their own image, I remind them why it is I DO submit to the authority of the Pope:  “because it reminds me that Jesus is *not* just like you (or like me, either), and thank God!”

God created man in His image. Man then promptly returned the favor.

“Be of good cheer!” (John 16:33)
www.merrycatholic.com

I’m going to have to remember that one, Merry Catholic! :D

NOBODY, especially Christians, appreciate it when our fellow or so called Christians get it so very wrong. For example:

1. we do NOT like it when Christians spread hate (or anyone else for that matter)

2. we do NOT like it when Christians make up their own doctrine (or anyone else for that matter)

3. we do not like it when non-Christians tell us how to get our faith right, ya know..suggested improvements.

ANother thing we dont like…recreating God in our own image. THeres a really memorable story about an entity that wanted to be like God. Many ‘new age’ Christians will miss out on this story and St. Michael’s amazing reaction.

“God created man in His image. Man then promptly returned the favor.”

merrycatholic - Like that!  Can I share that with my Bible study group this Sunday?

LarryW2LJ:
I’d love to take credit for that one, but I heard it years ago and have no idea who first said it. Feel free to share it with your Bible study group.
Wait a minute. “Bible study group”? And you’re Catholic? What’s this world coming to?! (Just kidding. Catholic Bible studies are not so rare and shocking anymore).
“Be of good cheer” (John 16:33)
www.merrycatholic.com

You know, you have to hand it to the folks who come up with slogans like “Marriage Equality.” How do you argue with that?
How about “Birth Equality” for unborn children? There’s got to be a anti-discrimination element that appeals to public sentiment that we’re missing out on using.

Merry Catholic,

Definitely!  I even have one of Fr. Z’s bumper stickers on my car:
“Catholic and faithful - American and free”

:)  We meet between the 9:00 AM and 11:30 Masses every Sunday morning.  Currently on the Acts of the Apostles - greta group of devoted, orthodox Catholics.

Thanks!

A “Manimal” reference!  Niiiice!

@ Kathleen,

Marriage Equality, equal parts male and female? Marriage equality, equal access to one’s mother and father? Because as a government we really should ignore all those father absent homes and the consequences for those children, because we fear we may look like we hate gays by influential activists.

How do you feel about Christians who use the Bible to spread hate?
.
Kristen’s answer was dimwitted, but what is your answer?

I am a huge fan of the Archbold brothers, but, honestly,Pat, it should be Dingbata. Charlotte Hays

I, too, was impressed by the ‘Manimal’ reference. Excellent!

funny, but the words attributed to kristen sound a whole lot more christian than do those of the author and most of the posts here. there’s enough self-righteousness condemnation posted here to make the staunchest of the pharisees blush.

How is it more Christian to misrepresent the teachings of Christ and help lead millions of people into accepting lifestyles of sin as morally legitimate?

John,

You could apply that logic to your own post.

I’m with John.  “They will know we are Christians by our love.”  There’s no legitimate exception to that but it sure seems like folks here believe there is.  (And for what it’s worth, I’d love to place this article and subsequent comments in a time capsule to be read 100 years from now.  They’re *remarkably* similar to comments made in the 19th-century against marriage between different races.  Fervent Christians then offered the same kinds of arguments seen here.  I’m thankful for the informed conscience given to me by God.)

Come on Grace.  This has NOTHING to do with marriage between races, which, you know, actually can produce children. 

Actually I think 100 years from now people will look at posts like yours and chuckle at this passing fancy.

I can’t possibly fathom why the Church is so vehemently anti-same-sex marriage.  The only “arguments” I receive from it are either appeals to tradition or slippery slope claims (and although I certainly can’t say this for everyone, these sorts of claims seem like window-dressings for homophobia in many instances).  And Bill, for the record, the children of so-called mixed marriages of the 19th-century and earlier were often thought of as “less than,” so I can’t wholly agree that gay marriage is an entirely different issue simply because of procreation.  There’s no rolling back the clock on this one—like it or not, same-sex marriage is only going to be more acceptable, not less, in the future.  One can stand against science and with the Church to claim that homosexuality is “intrinsically evil” or one can welcome the acceptance of equal human rights and the tenets of basic psychology (without charging that there’s some sort of “gay agenda” that’s controlling the populace—if gays and lesbians could control anything with such authority, it seems unlikely that they’d still be beaten and dragged behind cars out of hatred).  I know the party line is to claim that the Church’s teachings don’t change with the times.  But of course the Church *has* changed, and these changes have come with good reason in the past.  In the end, of course, every Catholic has to stand in judgement and be held accountable for her own conscience.  All I can say is that I fervently, unequivocally stand in favor of same-sex marriage and I’m in no way worried about the state of my soul as a result.

“I think it’s her “push-up girdle” that’s cutting off circulation to her brain.”-Merry Catholic, I like that comment.

“How is it more Christian to misrepresent the teachings of Christ and help lead millions of people into accepting lifestyles of sin as morally legitimate?”

I think the real Jesus would surprise a lot of people. He would probably be a lot more liberal than many Catholics would predict. I would imagine that he would not be very impressed with the great wealth of the Catholic Church. He would most likely be a lot more tolerant of others than what I see in Catholics. They are constantly condemning people.

“I think the real Jesus would surprise a lot of people. He would probably be a lot more liberal than many Catholics would predict. I would imagine that he would not be very impressed with the great wealth of the Catholic Church. He would most likely be a lot more tolerant of others than what I see in Catholics. They are constantly condemning people.”

Condemning the actions of people committing and advocating for sin is precisely what Christ commanded. Following the teachings of his Church is also precisely what Christ commanded. The idea that Christ would more “liberal” and tolerate unrepentant sinners is just completely false.

“I can’t possibly fathom why the Church is so vehemently anti-same-sex marriage.  The only “arguments” I receive from it are either appeals to tradition or slippery slope claims…”

Grace, you may not have heard the true reasons the Church is against same-sex “marriage.” The common comparison of marriages between mixed-race spouses and unions of homosexual partners has only superficial similarities. Yes there are people against homosexual “marriage” only because they hate homosexuals. But the Church’s position is not one based on hate but one that appeals to Divine Law as well as Natural Law. I would suggest reading this short primer on many of the reasons the Church upholds marriage and rejects the attempts to redefine it in whatever way the current political wind blows.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

“Condemning the actions of people committing and advocating for sin is precisely what Christ commanded.”

Are you kidding?  The Jesus described in the gospels (which is really all we know about him) hardly admonished sinners and projected acceptance and forgiveness. The Catholic Church is more like the Pharisees than like Jesus and his followers. Every non-Catholic sees this. That is why so few people who were born and raised Catholic actually practice the faith or give any credence to Church teaching.

“Following the teachings of his Church is also precisely what Christ commanded.”

Show me where it says that in the gospels.

” The idea that Christ would more “liberal” and tolerate unrepentant sinners is just completely false.”

At least I said “I think…”  You act as if you know this for a fact. All Jesus wanted people to do is believe in him. He certainly was liberal for his time and took on the Establishment, which today would be the Church hierarchy.

Yes, that’s very thorough, HDR.  For what it’s worth, it’s possible to identify a myriad of fallacies in Catholic.com’s responses to this issue.  But regardless…  My background is in human rights and it’s fundamentally impossible to accept the Church’s condemnation of homosexuality as anything other than anti-human rights.  I am not being purposely contentious—but if God wants me to view homosexual behavior as deviant and those who practice it as immoral, why would I want to worship Him?  Nothing—including the Church’s teachings—can supersede an informed conscience.  (And of course, I don’t mind if the Church elects not to bless gay marriages.  But I do mind when it spends millions to block civil marriages from taking place.)

“if God wants me to view homosexual behavior as deviant and those who practice it as immoral, why would I want to worship Him? Nothing—including the Church’s teachings—can supersede an informed conscience.”

I feel the same way.  First, the Church has this thing about anyone enjoying any sex act that is not specifically intended for procreation.  That leaves gays on the outside looking in and leads to all kinds of hangups about contraception. Another reason for its obstinance is that the Church wants Catholics to have as many children as they can so it can have as many members as it can. Gay sex does nothing for meeting this objective. So Catholics are tripping all over themselves trying to deal with gay rights.

“Are you kidding?  The Jesus described in the gospels (which is really all we know about him) hardly admonished sinners and projected acceptance and forgiveness. The Catholic Church is more like the Pharisees than like Jesus and his followers.”

No, I’m not kidding. Homosexual behavior is specifically condemned in Scripture. Christ preached acceptance and forgiveness to REPENTANT sinners and he taught them to turn from their way of sin. Homosexual “rights” advocates are not repentant, they preach that their sinful actions should be accepted. Arguing against this displays an ignorance of Scripture.

“Show me where it says that in the gospels.”

Matthew 18:18 is wonderfully pithy example of the Church’s authority “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” And the Church has preached against homosexual actions as sin since the beginning. There are clear examples in Scripture.

” I am not being purposely contentious—but if God wants me to view homosexual behavior as deviant and those who practice it as immoral, why would I want to worship Him?”

God wants us to turn away from sinful actions and thoughts. He is also the arbiter of morality. You aren’t forced to worship God but you aren’t free to redefine morality.

“Nothing—including the Church’s teachings—can supersede an informed conscience.”

Informed by what? Because nothing, even a supposedly informed conscience, is free to redefine morality. Morality is derived from God. I’ll borrow a quote. God created man in his image. Man promptly returned the favor. Just saying homosexual “marriage” is a human rights issue ignores the demands to prove that in a logical, consistent way.

HDR, the scripture you’ve quoted does not relate specifically to homosexuality, likely because Jesus never addressed this issue in the gospels.  To have an honest dialogue about the Church’s position on this issue, Bill S.‘s point has to be entertained—the Church has had good practical reason to condemn homosexuality, abortion, and contraception from the beginning: all of these “sins” deny the RCC more followers if accepted.  Permitting any or all of these actions means fewer babies, fewer future Catholics.  If it’s a toss-up between God viewing gays and lesbians (whom He created) as marred by an “intrinsic evil” and the Church wanting more followers, I’m going with the latter as the more likely option.

“Christ preached acceptance and forgiveness to REPENTANT sinners and he taught them to turn from their way of sin. Homosexual “rights” advocates are not repentant, they preach that their sinful actions should be accepted. Arguing against this displays an ignorance of Scripture.”

HDR, I can see a situation where good Catholic homosexuals would repent simply because the Church sees their sex acts as sinful.  What I can’t see is how the ban on gay marriage could possibly apply to atheists and other less religious gays. If the Church simply told its followers that they must go to confession whenever they masturbate or perform any sex act that does not lead to possible procreation and not try to impose the same on non-Catholics and nonpracticing Catholics, everything would be fine.  But the Church spends millions of dollars that could go to better causes trying to keep same sex marriage illegal in this country.

“And the Church has preached against homosexual actions as sin since the beginning. There are clear examples in Scripture.”

Again, if this doesn’t apply to non-Catholics and nonpracticing Catholics, then why should everyone be deprived of same sex marriage.  Isn’t this a case of the Church trying to impose its own morality on the rest of the world?  Shouldn’t the world resist this imposition?

“God wants us to turn away from sinful actions and thoughts. He is also the arbiter of morality. You aren’t forced to worship God but you aren’t free to redefine morality.”

It is this kind of thinking that causes the divisions in our society today. Who’s to say that there even is a God let alone that he has dictated morality to anyone. It’s not fair that gays must combat this kind of misguided false morality and have it imposed upon them.