Why are the people called “People of God” and not the “Mystical Body of Christ”?

There seems to be a lot of blame towards those who misinterpreted the Vatican II documents or blame towards the modernists who surfaced after Vatican II Council.  In the early ’50s (and prior) there was a great movement to except liturgical changes.  In his book “Holy Mass:  Approaches to the Mystery”, prior to Vatican II, Fr. A. Roguet used terms such as “Liturgy of the Word”, “Liturgy of the Sacrifice”, “sacrifice of praise”, “community”, “meal”, “table”…  that became popular during the Council.  Roguet stated in his book, “This word (sacrifice) no longer has a precise meaning for civilized people of the 20th century.”  (taken from “Tumultuous Times” by Frs. Radecki, page 383.)
  Is it any wonder the clergy and the laity were confused especially with the inexact formulations so that changes could be enacted?
  Is it any wonder that there are no ‘stark contradictions’ in ‘Catholic’ actions?

Joe - I do not have theological training so your questions are way over my head.  But I do know this: a person is either “IN” Christ, or he/she is “IN” the world.  No one is a little bit of both.  We are “of God” or “of the devil”, as Jesus told the Pharisees that claimed Abraham as their “Father”.

I would say there is no such thing as “The People of God”, except if one refers to Israel, with whom God made His covenant, a people having a remnant that God promised to remember.

But there is a “Body of Christ”: born-again, believers in Jesus, for whom Jesus is Lord & Savior, Resurrected & coming again, as Victorious King.

Paul’s letter to the Romans is so clear & easy to understand.  It’s a shame Catholics in the pews are not taught what Paul wrote in that letter in a verse by verse, expository fashion, exposing all truths Paul shared.

“It’s a shame Catholics in the pews are not taught what Paul wrote in that letter in a verse by verse, expository fashion, exposing all truths Paul shared.”

What is your evidence for these claims?

Terah James, when you said, “I do not have theological training so your questions are way over my head”—at that point, respectfully, you should have stopped right there.  Opinions we all have and yours in not grounded in the Teaching Authority Christ left on earth.  That is why there are 40 thousand different denominations in the world.  Added confusion came when Vatican II encouraged the forming of one’s own conscience without adhering to the safeguards of Holy Mother the Church.

Pope Leo XIII warns that, although the studies of non-Catholics, used with prudence, “may sometimes be of use to the Catholic student, he should nevertheless bear well in mind — as the Fathers also teach in numerous passages — that the sense of Holy Scripture can nowhere be found incorrupt outside the Church, and cannot be expected to be found in writers who, being without the true Faith, only know the bark of Sacred Scripture, and never attain its pith” (Providentissimus Deus).

Why is posting a quote from an encyclical by Pope Leo XIII and no other comments added causing the following?
      “Since your comment has been flagged as ‘potential’ spam, it will be reviewed before acceptance. Sorry for this inconvenience.”

I appreciated the question posed and do not think that Fr. Barron answered it although his comments were truthful and thought provoking as far as they went.  But the point of the question is, I believe, that history is being spun to eliminate the truth about the influence the Church had in developing our entire culture.  If the truth is not being taught in our schools regarding the history of Western civilization (and it is also being taught inadequatly regarding American history) then we have lost the culture to secularists/atheists. I is true that history is all about religious influence but since that is mostly NOT being taught, we are in a bad situation.  We must reclaim the culture by ensuring that our children and all citizens know truth regarding everything that informs about God and country and that means we must have history taught fully and honestly.  We, the body of Christ, need to be informed about our God through His One, Holy, and Apostolic Church.

May El, I agree with your comments but still they do not go deep enough.  See how this site will not allow pre-Vatican II encyclicals to be posted.  In my discussions with protestants I’ve expressed to them that to go back in history is to become a Catholic.  I say to the readers here:  “to go back to the encyclicals prior to Vatican II is to enter into the Mystical Body of Christ” versus, ‘People of God’.

  There is no call to preach, teach and convert protestants to the Catholic Faith in the 16 Vatican II documents.  Quite the contrary.  According to Lumen Gentium paragraph 8, the Catholic Church now subsists in other churches and though separated from the Apostolic See, they are now a means of salvation. This created an ecumenical bedlam; it created indifferentism; it created a major exodus out of the Catholic Church; it created closure of many Catholic Churches and schools.  It caused the laicizing of many priests and religious and the closures of convents and seminaries.

Jeff Miller is on point.  However, I do not believe that if Cardinal Newman was alive today he would use the same analogy.  Today’s Catholic Church is not like the Church of 500 years ago or even 50 years ago.  How can a rudderless Church attract and sustain?

Vatican II was a complete disaster.  The Modernists (liberals) have been trying to take hold of the reins of the church since before Pope Pius X.  He preached against the Modernists version of the faith.  With the death of Pius XII and the election of Pope John XXIII, the Modernists have taken over the church.  Vatican II was to be an “update” of the church to update it with the modern times and modern man.  This is taken from Bishop Sheen’s “The Eternal Galilean” written in 1934.  ... “the modern prophet, it was told, would rather be up-to-date than right, rather be wrong than behind modern times.  Our Blessed Lord upset this spirit by dwelling not on timely topics, but by eternal truths.  He taught in such a manner as to disprove forever His ideas were suited for His time, and therefore, unsuitable to any other.  He never used a phrase than made His philosophy dependent on the social order in which he lived; He never made His morality dependent on the existence of the Roman Empire, or even the existence of the world. ’ ” Heaven and earth will pass away, but my word will not pass away.’ “

Posted by Joe on Saturday, Jan 5, 2013 10:25 PM (EDT)
Added confusion came when Vatican II encouraged the forming of one’s own conscience without adhering to the safeguards of Holy Mother the Church.
—-
Wrong.
As Msgr Cormac P Burke in “Law and Dissent”, 1985, points out, for the Catholic, there is never a conflict between the authority of the Church and conscience, because belief that Christ has given His Church authority to teach without error is part of his conscience, freely accepted.  According to Canon 205, Catholics are those in full communion with the Church through the bonds of profession of faith, the sacraments and ecclesiastical governance.
“Hence the more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by the objective standards of moral conduct. Yet it often happens that conscience goes astray through ignorance which it is unable to avoid, without thereby losing his dignity.  This cannot be said of the man who takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded by the habit of committing sin.” [Vatican II, “Gaudium et Spes’ (“The Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World”), 16].

Posted by Joe on Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 9:16 AM (EDT):
According to Lumen Gentium paragraph 8, the Catholic Church now subsists in other churches
—-
Wrong again.
“Lumen Gentium” emphatically declares that “the sole Church of Christ…subsists in the Catholic Church,” [#8]

Posted by Joe DeCarlo on Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 11:05 AM (EDT):
Vatican II was a complete disaster.
—-
More dissent, as Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) has confirmed that “Whoever denies Vatican II denies the authority that upholds the other two Councils” (Trent and Vatican I). [‘The Ratzinger Report”, Ignatius, 1985, p 28].

Posted by Joe on Saturday, Jan 5, 2013 10:25 PM (EDT)
Added confusion came when Vatican II encouraged the forming of one’s own conscience without adhering to the safeguards of Holy Mother the Church.
Wrong.
As Msgr Cormac P Burke in “Law and Dissent”, 1985, points out, for the Catholic, there is never a conflict between the authority of the Church and conscience, because belief that Christ has given His Church authority to teach without error is part of his conscience, freely accepted.  According to Canon 205, Catholics are those in full communion with the Church through the bonds of profession of faith, the sacraments and ecclesiastical governance.
“Hence the more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by the objective standards of moral conduct. Yet it often happens that conscience goes astray through ignorance which it is unable to avoid, without thereby losing his dignity.  This cannot be said of the man who takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded by the habit of committing sin.” [Vatican II, “Gaudium et Spes” (The Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World), 16].

Posted by Joe on Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 9:16 AM (EDT):
According to Lumen Gentium paragraph 8, the Catholic Church now subsists in other churches
———-
Wrong again.
“Lumen Gentium” emphatically declares that “the sole Church of Christ…subsists in the Catholic Church,”

Posted by Joe DeCarlo on Sunday, Jan 6, 2013 11:05 AM (EDT):
Vatican II was a complete disaster.
——
More dissent, as Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) has confirmed that “Whoever denies Vatican II denies the authority that upholds the other two Councils” (Trent and Vatican I). [“The Ratzinger Report”, Ignatius, 1985, p 28].

Thomist - go to this website:
http://www.motherswatch.net/content/view/12/6/ - Part 1

http://www.motherswatch.net/content/view/15/6/ - Part 2
  Now that you have read at least the first page of Part 1, defend the “Growing In Love” series with imprimatur. Take a look at your post:
Jan 6, 2013 8:41 PM - Please—-  Defend how parochial school youth can be raised to be barbarians yet still develop a correctly formed conscience - all with your “tolerant” approval.

Thomist - The conciliar church is a dying religion.  Are you aware of the statistics showing the decline of religious, priests, churches, schools, financial support——-since Vatican II.  It’s right on target and is successfully accomplishing what it intended to do.
read:  “Animus Delendi-I Desire to Destroy”  by Atila Sinke Guimarâes

Thomist - you defend a dying religion and I’m not referrring to the Catholic Church.
http://www7.georgetown.edu/centers/cara/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html

As expected, the dissenter is quite unable to refute the Magisterial teaching on the correct formation of conscience, the infallibility of Christ’s Church and no other, and the authority of all Ecumenical Councils. Some never learn. Instead of supporting Christ’s Church these imposters wallow in their own self-importance.

Thomist -
  The dismantling of the Catholic Faith has been proven by the many Catholic Churches that have been demolished and sold.  Likewise, the Modernists say that the true Church of Christ is not exclusively identified with the church Christ instituted; the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ, they say, extends beyond the Catholic Church. 
      To quote a Vatican II theologian, Fr. Avery Dulles (later made a cardinal), “The Church of Jesus Christ is not exclusively identical to the Roman Catholic Church. It does indeed “subsists in” the Roman Catholic Church, but it is also present in varying modes and degrees in other Christian communities… As a result of their common sharing in the reality of the one Church, the several Christian communities already have with one another a real but imperfect communion.”
    This is called a new development of doctrine -.  No wonder the Obama administration won on changes.  He was able to sell ‘change’ because so-called ‘Catholics’ were shanghaied to accept the many many changes of Vatican II “developments”.

Thomist - I’m trying to reason with you respectfully - but the ‘moderator’ is blocking my posts.  We’ll see what happens.

There is much too much “education”  in today’s writings.  Much of what is written is way over the heads of most people and they have to have study groups to interpret it! his is a failing of many of our “successors” to the apostles -priest, bishops etc.
Communists have infiltrated our church. Read excerpts of a book by Fr. John Connery or find the book on a Fr Troush cite -he is a dissident, sort of like a Luther but the book is on his cite telling of how the communists sent over 1000 young men, all over the world (this one being to Canada) to enter seminaries and become “priests” to undermine the church in the 30’s and 40’s. Another good book “Good Bye Good Men”.
There are simple ways to look at what Christ told us “live in the world but not for the world”. Give to Ceasar what is Ceasars and to God what is God’s.
One important aspect to become awakened to:  we humans live in this world for usually less than 100 yrs.  Then our souls go on to an eternity. Our bodies are instruments for our souls.  OUR TIME ON EARTH IS TO QUALIFY US FOR HEAVEN -  OR NOT.  This is a time of choosing. One of our main jobs is to let other people know this.  Most have children, teach them and they may have exemplary lives.  Then reach out to others. I feel so sorry for some who have never known the word God except to use it in cursing. If we have not taught others this fact, then we may have failed our mission that we were given.
Also everyone has a crucifixtion just as Christ did. He didn’t want to meet His -but He did.  If we accept ours, it’s a great plus passing the “test” to live in heaven for eternity.
  If we do not accept ours (get an abortion - be euthanized - kill - steal - fall to the lure of adultery -all of the 10 commandments- then we will lose our soul to hell. 
I surely wouldn’t think it would be heaven if I had to live with corrupt souls….

Joe, while I mentioned that I do not have theological training, are you saying I am wrong when I wrote: “...a person is either “IN” Christ, or he/she is “IN” the world.  No one is a little bit of both.  We are “of God” or “of the devil”, as Jesus told the Pharisees that claimed Abraham as their “Father”.”

Are you saying that is just my OPINION?  If so, do you have theological training, Joe?  If you do, how much?  What qualifications make you an expert to make such a definitive ruling for everyone about what I wrote?

My second point was, “I would say there is no such thing as “The People of God”, except if one refers to Israel, with whom God made His covenant, a people having a remnant that God promised to remember.”

Joe: are you saying my above paragraph is incorrect?  If so, how would you respond to the question, “Who are the People of God?”

Thirdly, I wrote, “But there is a “Body of Christ”: born-again, believers in Jesus, for whom Jesus is Lord & Savior, Resurrected & coming again, as Victorious King.”

Joe: are you saying that is inaccurate?  If so, how would you respond to the question, “What is the Body of Christ?”

I ask you Joe, in reply to what you wrote:
Posted by Joe on Saturday, Jan 5, 2013 10:25 PM (EDT): Terah James, when you said, “I do not have theological training so your questions are way over my head”—at that point, respectfully, you should have stopped right there.  Opinions we all have and yours in not grounded in the Teaching Authority Christ left on earth.

This is to Savvy -
When I wrote, “Paul’s letter to the Romans is so clear & easy to understand.  It’s a shame Catholics in the pews are not taught what Paul wrote in that letter in a verse by verse, expository fashion, exposing all truths Paul shared.”

Savvy’s response was: Posted by savvy on Saturday, Jan 5, 2013 9:32 PM (EDT) What is your evidence for these claims?

My question to Savvy - where can we find a Catholic parish anywhere in the entire world that, on Sunday at Mass, priests teach the letters of Paul, verse by verse, in an expository fashion, so Catholics in the pews understand the truths about which Paul wrote? 

There are NO parishes anywhere around me.  Do you know of any? 

Odd that Fr. Barron says that the Reformation in the 1500’s is deeply problematic because of a “peculiar reading of history” in that ...everything started anew.  I know of no one who believes that “everything” started anew in Christianity, since it was re-formed, not started anew.  Why would his take on this be so wrong?

Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap.explains how the much that was good was thrown away in the revolt and thus came the newness of selfism—individual sovereignty and realativism.

“Brad Gregory, the Notre Dame historian, seeks to show how we got this way in his recent book ‘The Unintended Reformation: How a Religious Revolution Secularized Society’.

“The Reformers’ stress on ‘sola scriptura’ sought to close the gap between Christian preaching and practice. But it failed at that, while opening a Pandora’s Box of new problems. Competing interpretations of Scripture actually intensified the confusion. Lutherans read Scripture one way, Calvinists another, with varieties of Anglicans, Anabaptists, Baptists, Puritans, Pietists, Methodists, and Quakers veering off into options beyond counting.
“Gregory also chronicles the secular philosophers who stepped into the breach. In the place of sola scriptura, the Enlightenment offered wisdom sola ratio. From Descartes, through Hobbes, Spinoza, Rousseau, Kant, Hume, Hegel, and others, on to Heidegger and Levinas and their successors, the great end-run around revealed religion and its traditions began, seeking truth based on human reason alone.

“But one key difference separated these Catholic voices from the Protestant Reformers: The Catholics believed that the Church had her teachings right. She just needed to actually live them. The Catholics believed that Christ’s presence in the Eucharist and other sacraments, in the Scriptures, in the saints, and in the Church’s historic doctrines offered an authentic, all-encompassing Christian way of life sufficient to sanctify human existence—if it was actually embraced and shorn of its abuses.
The Protestants, preaching sola scriptura, threw much of it away. The Protestants believed that the deposit and structure of Catholic faith were fundamentally flawed, that Christ no longer abided in the Roman Church, and that Scripture alone communicated God’s will. ‘Sola scriptura’ changed everything for Western Christendom. The Church became the churches, and the process inadvertently, but relentlessly, fueled individual sovereignty and relativism
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/what-the-reformation-has-wrought

Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap.explains how the much that was good was thrown away in the revolt and thus came the newness of selfism—individual sovereignty and realativism.

“Brad Gregory, the Notre Dame historian, seeks to show how we got this way in his recent book ‘The Unintended Reformation: How a Religious Revolution Secularized Society’.

“The Reformers’ stress on sola scriptura sought to close the gap between Christian preaching and practice. But it failed at that, while opening a Pandora’s Box of new problems. Competing interpretations of Scripture actually intensified the confusion. Lutherans read Scripture one way, Calvinists another, with varieties of Anglicans, Anabaptists, Baptists, Puritans, Pietists, Methodists, and Quakers veering off into options beyond counting.
“Gregory also chronicles the secular philosophers who stepped into the breach. In the place of sola scriptura, the Enlightenment offered wisdom sola ratio. From Descartes, through Hobbes, Spinoza, Rousseau, Kant, Hume, Hegel, and others, on to Heidegger and Levinas and their successors, the great end-run around revealed religion and its traditions began, seeking truth based on human reason alone.”

Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap.adds:
“But one key difference separated these Catholic voices from the Protestant Reformers: The Catholics believed that the Church had her teachings right. She just needed to actually live them. The Catholics believed that Christ’s presence in the Eucharist and other sacraments, in the Scriptures, in the saints, and in the Church’s historic doctrines offered an authentic, all-encompassing Christian way of life sufficient to sanctify human existence—if it was actually embraced and shorn of its abuses.
“The Protestants, preaching sola scriptura, threw much of it away. The Protestants believed that the deposit and structure of Catholic faith were fundamentally flawed, that Christ no longer abided in the Roman Church, and that Scripture alone communicated God’s will. Sola scriptura changed everything for Western Christendom. The Church became the churches, and the process inadvertently, but relentlessly, fueled individual sovereignty and relativism.”
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/what-the-reformation-has-wrought

Terah James, The Roman Catholic Church is said to be the Mystical Body of Christ instituted by Christ for the communication of invincible grace to the whole world. (See John A. Hardon, S. J., Catholic Dictionary).
  The Vatican II council took on an ‘ecumenical spirit’ (formerly condemned), and no longer refers to the people in the Roman Catholic Church as the Mystical Body of Christ. 
    In the Novus Ordo, no longer does the presider offer the Holy Sacrifice and consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in persona Christi (in the Person of Christ); now he merely leads the assembly,  the people gathered together, to bring about a spiritual presence of Christ. This new revised definition of the Mass iremoved what was offensive to protestants in order for them to attend and eat of the meal and participate in the people celebrating themselves. 
My training:  I study the issues and can substantiate them.

Because of ecumenism, the Catholic church has lost its identity.  Ecumenism was condemned before Vatican II, so how can they say that no new doctrines were established at Vatican II.  The Catholic church nows says that anyone, no matter what religion can be saved.  Not according to Jesus who said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light.  The only way to the father is thorough me.”  Jesus says the ONLY WAY, not one of the ways.  Listen to Charles Stanley, who says that Jews and other religions cannot get into heaven.  Stanley uses the above quote for this interpretation and I, as a preVatican II Catholic (that was taught pre-vat II)  agree with him.
 
The Catholic church now subsists in the Church.  I thought their was only one church, the Church established by Jesus, the Catholic church.  The rest of the Christian denominations were found by men. 

This is why I attend the Latin Mass.  We are in communion with the Pope, but practice pre-vatican II doctrines.

P.S.  We, the traditional Catholic church try to convert non-Catholics, something the Novus Ordo doesn’t do anymore.  Why become a Catholic if all the other Christian denominations can be saved, as well as other religions.

Joe DeCarlo This is a first to hear that one tries to convert to the T L M.  I earnestly implore you - please justify how one converts another to a Mass and not to the doctrines, principles, practices, disciplines and Sacraments?
Who will instruct the potential candidates to the T L M? 
How does one justify how to recognize and resist Rome?

Joe, this is what I find confusing too.  Too many Catholics that write in NC Register blogs are all over the place, in terms of what they believe and who they follow.  No wonder we have Joe Biden/Nancy Pelosi Catholics that think they are “good Catholics”, leaders for those other Catholics that helped elect President Obama.

There are Catholics that adher to various Church “Fathers” that wrote from the second century onwards (many disagreeing with each other), those that adher to Church life from the Middle Ages (ie. “monsignor” - a feudal term for “my lord”), those that adher to post Vatican II practices and those that want to go BACK to practices before that, like America in the 1950’s.  Catholics are just all over the place.

I am convinced there is one, solitary reason for the chaos & confusion, the in-fighting, the lack of direction and distrust for our leadership by rank & file Catholics in the pews: it is because women have never been given their God-ordained roles in the institutional church, not since Acts of the Apostles church life was documented in God’s word.

When women ARE given their God-ordained roles in the institutional church - Roman rite & the Eastern rite churches in union with Rome -
there will be more unity, for two reasons, first: God’s word would be honored and obeyed, as written (in context) and secondly: it would draw conservative God-honoring Christians together, much like now, with the Anglicans that are coming to Rome, to escape the bad practice of ordaining women to the priesthood, and endorsing same sex relationships.
NO WOMEN PRIESTS.  NO SAME SEX MARRIAGE.

Terah James, I’m confused about what you say about “women have never been given their God-ordained roles in the institutional church.”  Did God not honor the Mother of Our Saviour?  Is she not the perfect example of womanhood and feminine qualities?

Posted by Joe on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2013 9:51 AM (EDT):
In the Novus Ordo, no longer does the presider offer the Holy Sacrifice and consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in persona Christi (in the Person of Christ)
—————
The ignorance and/or apparently deliberate misrepresentation are endless from this dissenter.

CCC#1548: “In the ecclesial service of the ordained minister, it is Christ himself who is present to his Church as Head of his Body, Shepherd of his flock, high priest of the redemptive sacrifice, Teacher of Truth. This is what the Church means by saying that the priest, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, acts IN PERSONA CHRISTI CAPITIS:23”

“It is the same priest, Christ Jesus, whose sacred person his minister truly represents. Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is truly made like to the high priest and possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself (virtute ac PERSOINA IPSIUS CHRISTI).24”

“Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST.25”[My Capitals].

Notes:
23 Cf. LG 10; 28; SC 33; CD 11; PO 2; 6.
24 Pius XII, encyclical, Mediator Dei: AAS, 39 (1947) 548.
25 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III,22,4c.

Notice that FOUR Vatican II documents are cited in Note 23 to confirm the traditional doctrine.

Posted by Joe on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2013 9:51 AM (EDT):
The Catholic church nows says that anyone, no matter what religion can be saved.  Not according to Jesus who said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light.  The only way to the father is thorough me.” 
———-
How ludicrous that this dissenter should purposely misrepresent the Magisterium and presumably imagine that he will be saved, when the primacy of Peter and the Bishops of Rome was recognised from the beginning of Christ’s Church and infallibility in doctrine was accepted from the beginning also – possessed by His Church – “He who hears you, hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Lk 10:16). [See Mt 28:20; Jn 14:16-17, 26; Jn 16:13].

Having commissioned Peter as His first Vicar, Jesus instructed the eleven and proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20)

That is precisely why Pope St Clement wrote to the Catholics of Corinth in A.D. 95: “If any man should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger… Render obedience to the things written by us through the Holy Spirit.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1).”This Is The Faith”, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics MIGHT be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” [“Catholic Apologetics Today”, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].”

Thus, all salvation comes through Christ’s Church, whether the person knows it or not. Further evangelisation is mandated that we may be saved, and assist others to come to Christ.

@Thomist
According to the Motu Proprio, the Novus Ordo continues to be the “ordinary expression” of the Modern Church’s rite of the “Mass.” And as we well know, this Novus Ordo is a striking departure from the Mass as defined by the Council of Trent in the words of Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci in 1969.
  It is well for us to recall that there were six Protestant theologians who assisted on the special commission to change the Mass, and that one of them expressed satisfaction that the protestants could use the Novus Ordo without any theological problems.
  From beginning to end, this new “Mass” has been stripped of all reference to a propitiatory sacrifice — that is, a sacrifice to atone for sin — and is simply a protestant memorial of the Last Supper. To put the Novus Ordo side by side with the Latin Mass and claim they are merely two expressions of the same rite is utterly false.

@Thomist -The new mass known as the Novus Ordo Missae, contradicts previous infallible teachings and decrees of the Catholic Church, such as:

  Pope St. Pius V’s Quo Primum and De Defectibus,
  the Council of Trent’s decree on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (Session XXII),
  Pope Leo XIII’s Apostolicae Curae (1896),
  Pope Pius XII’s Mediator Dei (1947),
  Pope Pius XII’s Sacramentum Ordinis (1948).

THEREFORE, the Novus Ordo Missae, when offered with the altered words of Consecration, is an invalid Mass.

Posted by Joe on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2013 9:51 AM (EDT):
The Catholic church nows says that anyone, no matter what religion can be saved.  Not according to Jesus who said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light.  The only way to the father is thorough me.” 
———-
How ludicrous that this dissenter should purposely misrepresent the Magisterium and presumably imagine that he will be saved, when the primacy of Peter and the Bishops of Rome was recognised from the beginning of Christ’s Church and infallibility in doctrine was accepted from the beginning also – possessed by His Church – “He who hears you, hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Lk 10:16). [See Mt 28:20; Jn 14:16-17, 26; Jn 16:13].

Having commissioned Peter as His first Vicar, Jesus instructed the eleven and proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20)

That is precisely why Pope St Clement wrote to the Catholics of Corinth in A.D. 95: “If any man should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger… Render obedience to the things written by us through the Holy Spirit.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1).”This Is The Faith”, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics MIGHT be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” [“Catholic Apologetics Today”, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].”

Thus, all salvation comes through Christ’s Church, whether the person knows it or not. Further evangelisation is mandated so that we may be saved, and assist others to come to Christ.

Notice how the Vatican II document, Lumen gentium, para. 8 contradicts Sacred Tradition - (Sacred Tradition is a foreign word to conciliarists.)
    “Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives” (Bull of Union with the Copts, Council of Florence, 1442)•
De Motione Oecumenica - the 1949 Instruction of the Holy Office against Ecumenism
•Mortalium Animos - the 1928 Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius XI condemning Ecumenism and Interreligious Dialogue”

Posted by Joe on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2013 9:38 PM (EDT):
the Novus Ordo Missae, when offered with the altered words of Consecration, is an invalid Mass.
————
The alternative magisterium of Joe et al has no legitimacy and shows up the rampant dissent being presented here.

For the dissenters, the teaching on salvation is totally betrayed—The Magisterium is quite clear:
Pius IX, the Pope of Vatican I which declared the Dogma of Papal Infallibility, in ‘Quanto Conficiamur Moerore” (1863), is of one mind with Clement I and Vatican II: “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.”

“By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Pope Pius IX, “Singulari Quidem”, 1863 A.D.).

Posted by Joe on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2013 9:51 AM (EDT):
The Catholic church nows says that anyone, no matter what religion can be saved.  Not according to Jesus who said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light.  The only way to the father is thorough me.” 
———-
How ludicrous that this dissenter should purposely misrepresent the Magisterium and presumably imagine that he will be saved.
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics MIGHT be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” [“Catholic Apologetics Today”, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].”

Thus, all salvation comes through Christ’s Church, whether the person knows it or not. Further evangelisation is mandated so that we may be saved, and assist others to come to Christ.

Hey Thomist, you’re gonna love this! - The Assisi Meetings teach that ALL are saved from the moment of life whether they accept it or not. Sooooo - no need for Holy Mother Church - no need for priests—-  no need for the Sacraments——
  Christ wasted His time training the Apostles according to these meetings.  See the book:
“Theological Journey to the Prayer Meeting of Religions in Assisi” by Fr. Johannes Dörmann - Part 1

The dissenters reject the Magisterium:
Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).

The teaching MEANS that WITHOUT the Church there is no salvation—ALL salvation comes through Christ’s Church.

The definitions of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and the Council of Florence (1442) were associated with combating defections from Catholic unity and refuting heresies. The Council of Trent (16th century) solemnly defined the dogma of baptism by desire, recognizing “that actual membership of Christ’s Church is not required to reach one’s eternal destiny.” (Fr John A Hardon, “The Catholic Catechism”, 1975, p235).

“By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Pope Pius IX, “Singulari Quidem”, 1863 A.D.).

The dissenters reject the Magisterium:
Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).

The teaching MEANS that WITHOUT the Church there is no salvation—ALL salvation comes through Christ’s Church.

The definitions of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and the Council of Florence (1442) were associated with combating defections from Catholic unity and refuting heresies. The Council of Trent (16th century) solemnly defined the dogma of baptism by desire, recognizing “that actual membership of Christ’s Church is not required to reach one’s eternal destiny.” (Fr John A Hardon, “The Catholic Catechism”, 1975, p235).

Salvation is offered to all by the Lord.
“By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Pope Pius IX, “Singulari Quidem”, 1863 A.D.).

When the primacy of Peter and the Bishops of Rome was recognised from the beginning of Christ’s Church and infallibility in doctrine was accepted from the beginning also – possessed by His Church – “He who hears you, hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Lk 10:16). [See Mt 28:20; Jn 14:16-17, 26; Jn 16:13].
The dissenters reject Christ’s Magisterium.

Salvation is offered to all by the Lord.
“By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Pope Pius IX, “Singulari Quidem”, 1863 A.D.).
When the primacy of Peter and the Bishops of Rome was recognised from the beginning of Christ’s Church and infallibility in doctrine was accepted from the beginning also – possessed by His Church – “He who hears you, hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Lk 10:16). [See Mt 28:20; Jn 14:16-17, 26; Jn 16:13].
The dissenters reject Christ’s Magisterium.

Salvation is offered to all by the Lord.
When the primacy of Peter and the Bishops of Rome was recognised from the beginning of Christ’s Church and infallibility in doctrine was accepted from the beginning also – possessed by His Church – “He who hears you, hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Lk 10:16). [See Mt 28:20; Jn 14:16-17, 26; Jn 16:13].
The dissenters reject Christ’s Magisterium.

Having commissioned Peter as His first Vicar, Jesus instructed the eleven and proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20)

That is precisely why Pope St Clement wrote to the Catholics of Corinth in A.D. 95: “If any man should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger… Render obedience to the things written by us through the Holy Spirit.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1).”This Is The Faith”, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141]

Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics COULD be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” [“Catholic Apologetics Today”, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].”

Joe, Vatican II converted you and others to the Novus Ordo mass.  We traditionalists are still with the mass that had been unchanged for at least a 1000 years.

Posted by Joe DeCarlo on Wednesday, Jan 9, 2013 8:20 AM (EDT):
“Joe, Vatican II converted you and others to the Novus Ordo mass.  We traditionalists are still with the mass that had been unchanged for at least a 1000 years.”

Joe DeCarlo - I finally fled because of all the abuses and contradictions in the post conciliar church, some of which are:
*ecumenical services
*the protestant/lutheran novus ordo missae which included hula masses, presbyters participating in cheese head masses, dancing girls around the ‘table’, basket balls masses, beach masses, circus masses, balloon masses, Eucharistic ministers putting the claimed consecrated host into hands, ..........no sacrificial offerings for the sins of the world masses
*the Tabernacle and Our Blessed Mother demoted to the closet
* each one of the Seven Sacraments were changed to no longer signify needed graces
*Assisi meetings claiming universal salvation
*sexualized catechetics mandated in U S bishops schools to destroy the Catholic Faith
*female servers
*horendous dance band music
*.............

I chose to be a member of the Apostolic Church and not the post conciliar new religion of Vatican II church that teaches the Catholic Church is spread out into other denominations (that are heretical sects) and a means of salvation.
I fled from the church that claims Holy Mother the Church has erred and must continually be purified.
I fled from the church that believes in no absolute truth and morality is based upon individual consciences.
I fled from the church that condones birthcontrolling that often fails and hence keeps abortion legal.

I regularly attend the immemorial Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by legitimate priests who say only the consecrated words according to Quo Primum promulgated by Pope Saint Pius V.
Do you want more information?
bayleaf610@gmail.com

Once again I get this to prevent my comments that are factual and respectful:

“Since your comment has been flagged as ‘potential’ spam, it will be reviewed before acceptance. Sorry for this inconvenience.

Joe, you did the correct thing.  I attend only the Latin mass where we believe in the tenets that were adhered to pre-vat II.  I am totally disgusted with the present Catholic church.  They don’t have the backbone that they had pre-vat. II.  I don’t know where the church comes up with the interpretation that all can be saved, no matter what their religion.  According to Jesus, the only way to the father is through me.  And, if you are not with me, you are against me.  To me, there is no wiggle room for any other interpretation, but you have to be a Christian to be saved.  Since Vatican II, the so called “update” of the church, it has gotten to be politically correct with the rest of the liberals.
You are correct about the Novus Ordo mass.  There were 6 Protestant “observers on the liturgical committee when they changed the mass.  Do you wonder why the Novus Ordo mass looks like a protestant service?

Joe DeCarlo - Is it an Indult Mass that you attend?

The key is assent to dogma and doctrine, with the obedience of faith as St Paul emphasises (Rom 1:5; 16.26), with the St Escriva admonition to be simple but not simpletons. In other words those who believe in nothing but their feelings will tend to fall for anything.
You might consider how Christ addresses His own Apostles, “whom He loved to the end”. Jesus exclaimed: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 6:51). That is real love – showing when they are wrong and so helping them to begin to live His truth which is found now only through His Church.
Readers can see how some try to place themselves above Christ and His Church – always “the pillar and bulwark of the truth”! (1Tim 3:15). The imposters don’t have a leg to stand on.

Joe wrote: “Posted by Joe on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2013 8:33 PM (EDT):Terah James, I’m confused about what you say about “women have never been given their God-ordained roles in the institutional church.”  Did God not honor the Mother of Our Saviour?  Is she not the perfect example of womanhood and feminine qualities?”

Joe - I am a convert to Catholicism.  Before my conversion, I had some knowledge of how the Christian church structure was to be, at least on a local parish level.

Mandated celibacy is a hot-button issue & unlike the famous Evangelical converts to Roman Catholic, such as most columnists on National Catholic Register, I just do not see that any ordained man (priest, bishop or pope) was expected to promise never to marry a woman, or to be unmarried, when he is ordained.  In fact, the opposite is true.  Paul wrote that men in ordained church ministry are ideally, married with children. 

The roles for women in the institutional church is two-fold: 1) as the wife of an ordained man, and 2) as a deaconess, which is a service oriented role for the church, illustrated by Deaconess Phoebe, mentioned in the last chapter of Paul’s letter to the Romans.

Until the church begins to recognize the qualifications mentioned in Scripture, as the “ideal”, women will continue to demand to be ordained to the priesthood, and women will continue to take the positions of lay “Pastor” of parishes (something they ought not be doing) and women will continue to be decision-makers in seminaries, keeping good men (that threaten their power) out, IF the good men are indeed there.  Another consequence of side-stepping the qualifications for men, per Scripture, is there is a huge amount of homosexual males now in the seminary and they are being ordained to the priesthood, so it’s not even a “sacrifice” for them to give up marriage to a woman, and forgo a family.

The big question is not if these homosexual men have had same-sex partners in their lives (such as would be a BIG concern of St. Paul’s, and it would most likely eliminate them from the pool of candidates), but rather, for entrance to a seminary, the question is if they had a same-sex relationship “lately”.

Joe, no, the Traditional church is part of the Camden diocese in NJ.  All masses are in Latin.  It is a unique situation.

When I attended the Catholics schools pre Vat. II, we were taught that there was no salvation outside the Catholic church.  So don’t tell me that Vatican II didn’t change any doctrines.  Another doctrine that was changed was ecumenism.  We couldn’t even enter a non-Catholic church, let alone another religion’s church.

Posted by Joe DeCarlo on Wednesday, Jan 9, 2013 8:24 PM (EDT):
we were taught that there was no salvation outside the Catholic church.
———-
Then listen, learn and love:
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics COULD be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” [“Catholic Apologetics Today”, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].”
Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
The dissenters reject the clear teaching of Christ through His Church in Her catechism.

@savvy to Terrah James:  [“What is your evidence for these claims?”]  Read the Book the Romans (right after ACTS) and then you can join the discussion.

Posted by Joe DeCarlo on Wednesday, Jan 9, 2013 8:20 PM (EDT):“Joe, no, the Traditional church is part of the Camden diocese in NJ.  All masses are in Latin.  It is a unique situation.”

        Joe DeCarlo - You are not answering my question, I do not think.  What is the order of priests; who ordained them; are they also saying the novus ordo missae; and who owns the ‘Traditional’ church?

@Thomist -
The general editor of the new catechism is Christoph Cardinal Schönborn who is also the author of YouCat. As you know YouCat has been recalled because of errors. 

von Schönborn is the current ecclesiastical advisor at Ave Marie University, Naples, Florida. Why does he hold this position when he has twice given the Pontifical Order of St. Gregory the Great Award to pro abort politicians?
http://catholiccitizens.org/press/pressview.asp?c=47112

Von Schönborn is also known for his balloon masses and calls the Buddhist, Dalai Lama, Holiness
\Card_ Schönborn Invites the Dalai Lama to Pentecost Mass by Marian Horvat.htm

  You want the readers to believe this man wrote the fullness of Catholic principles and doctrines when his lifestyle is an abomindation?        Please explain about the icon that is on the front of the green catechism you keep quoting from.

Plain for all to see is the SSPX-style refutation of papal and Ecumenical Council authority on dogma and doctrine when it does not agree with their pet prejudices, and the authoritative understanding of salvation for non-Catholics which many Popes from Clement I to John Paul II have expressly taken the care and effort to teach and emphasize.
BTW, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is issued through an Apostolic Constitution (Fidei Depositum), and “is a sure norm for teaching the faith” (Bl John Paul II, p 5) – but of course the dissenters claim to know better than the Pope.
There are none so blind as those who will not to see.

thomist - please at least attempt to explain Christoph Cardinal Schönborn, editor of the CCC’s reckless behaviors just as ‘balloon masses’, awards to pro-aborts, errors in YouCat, and other activities that mocks Christ’s Church you so agreeably overlook.  And please explain the icon on the front cover of the CCC.  Do you know the other strategic place this icon was also used?  These are provoking questions, to be certain.  I’m not part of the “recognize and resist” people pleasers.

Sorry Joe, They are two priests ordained by the diocese of Camden, NJ.  They formally celebrated the Novus Ordo, but now celebrate the Latin Mass.  They are regular parish priests.

Thomist two church councils stated the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church.  Pope Clement’s letter is not dogma.

Joe DeCarlo - Are you are purposely avoiding my questions?  Your ‘priests’ must say the novus ordo or they would not be able to say the Latin Mass.  That is only one part of the agreement to loosen up the tight fisted control on the Traditional Latin Mass. 
  What do you mean by ‘regular parish priests?”

Joe, they do not say the novus ordo mass.  They say only the Latin mass.  I am not avoiding you question.  I previously said that is was a unique situation.

Joe, go to Mater Ecclesiae website.  Berlin, NJ

They are parish priests, ordained by the diocese of Camden, NJ.  In other words, they don’t belong to an order

Joe DeCarlo,  The men who say the T L M cannot, and I repeat cannot say only the T L M.  The diocese will NOT allow such an arrangement.  They must say the novus ordo mass at some time.  It is an agreement.  I provide substantiation of this very important point.

joe,  I am not lying.  You are wrong in this situation.  As I said, go the Mater Ecclesiae website and you will see it,

Joe, go to the website and click “About”

Joe, taken from the Mater Ecclesiae website. “Mater Ecclesiae is the first canonically established church owned and staffed by a Roman Catholic diocese, that has been granted exclusive use of the Roman Missle Typical edition of 1962.”

Posted by Joe DeCarlo on Thursday, Jan 10, 2013 11:22 AM (EDT):
Thomist two church councils stated the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church.  Pope Clement’s letter is not dogma.
———
Such a persistent display of ignorance and attachment to error indicates real perversity to Christ and His Church.
The Council of Trent (16th century) solemnly defined the dogma of baptism by desire, recognizing “that actual membership of Christ’s Church is not required to reach one’s eternal destiny.” (Fr John A Hardon, “The Catholic Catechism”, 1975, p235).
Pius IX, the Pope of Vatican I which declared the Dogma of Papal Infallibility, in “Quanto Conficiamur Moerore” (1863), is of one mind with Clement I and Vatican II: “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.”
The Church is necessary for salvation. All salvation comes through Christ. This is not in opposition to the fact that someone is able to be joined to Christ and His Church, even if he is not aware of them.
CANON IV. “If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.” [Council of Trent].
[http://outsidethechurchnosalvation.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Magisterium]

@Joe DeCarlo - This will not do justice to why the Indult Mass is problematic, but I will make an attempt.  We know that all Sacraments must have proper matter, form and intention. The new Roman Pontifical was made official in 1978.  It was prepared by the International Commission on English in the Liturgy (ICEL), the same group responsible for the changes in the Mass.  In it describes the newrite of Ordination Of A Priest.
    In twelve pages of wide-spaced type, one can read how a man is made a priest in the newrite. The modern ordination is simplified to the extreme.  If it is stretched out with singing and a sermon it could probably take about an hour.  A proper ordination takes nearly three. 
  Who gave the modernists of Vatican II the authority to arbitrarily change this sacrament of the priesthood?  Did Christ make a mistake?  How can you be certain that the changes to the Sacrament of Ordination does not affect the efficacy of graces?  Since there are so many changes to this sacrament instituted by Christ one can only conclude a man is merely made to be a presbyter, a presider for the assembly of people gathered for a meal. 
    The presider is not taught the proper words of consecration.  The ‘mystery of faith’ is left out entirely, so they are taught.                                                               
      Seminaries do not teach the Traditional Latin Mass, therefore, those attending the Indult mass do not know if the Latin words of consecration are correct or if some of the hosts are from the novus ordo missae or prayers are changed according to the personal preference of the ‘presbyter’.
  The area you say that the TLM is allowed (image the benevolence of the diocese to merely indulge and or ‘allow’ the most beautiful creation on earth) all the while prefers the protestant version of mass, the novus ordo missae.       
  The Indult Mass was to appease the protesters of the Lutheranized mass.  It’s all about money, you see.  In any given Sunday or Saturday conciliarists can participate in their Mass of choice without conflict of conscience. 
  Lex orandi, lex credenti – the law of praying will be the law of believing.  In practice the doctrines will no longer exist because they are denied in the new mass.  The integrity of the Catholic Faith is at grave risk when one not only attends the new mass but the attendees of the Indult Mass are financially supporting its demise as well.

@ Joes DeCarlo - I’ve respectfully made an attempt to continue discussion but the ‘moderator’ considers my comments as spam.  Let us see what happens.

Hi Joe,  I don’t know why the moderator would consider it spam.  I wasn’t offended.

Thomist, yes there is the baptism of desire, blood, etc.  But do Jews, Hindus, Muslims desire baptism, or would they shed their blood for Jesus?  None of the above religions can get into heaven unless they, maybe on their death beds, accept Jesus Christ as their savior.  “The only way to the Father is through me.”  “He is is not with me is against me.”

Council of Florence 1438-1445 #714.  It [the council] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart"into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devils and his angels” (Matt. 25-41. 

So yes, the baptism of desire and blood hold, but the above groups must convert before they die.

P.S. or have the desire to become believers in Christ, or shed their blood for Christ.

Joe, we use the same missle that the SSPX uses.  It is not an indult mass.  I went on a pilgrimage with the SSPX to Israel and we had mass everyday and they used the same missle that our church uses.

Joe DeCarlo - your ‘priests’ were not trained in the SSPX seminaries and therefore are merely allowed to say the Indult Mass - as special an indulgence to appease those who favor the TML.  They refuse to see that the same diocese allows the novus ordo that removes any resemblances of traditional Catholic doctrine.  People aren’t converted to a Mass, Joe DeCarlo.  The Indult is just another segment under the wide-umbrella of choices such as the ecumenical spirit.  For certain your diocese would not allow a priest to say Mass in that church who refuses to say the novus ordo missae.

here we go again:

Since your comment has been flagged as ‘potential’ spam, it will be reviewed before acceptance. Sorry for this inconvenience.

@ Posted by Joe on Friday, Jan 11, 2013 10:06 AM (EDT): To @Joe DeCarlo -“We know that all Sacraments must have proper matter, form & intention…”
And regarding the new Roman Pontifical from 1978 that rewrites how a man is made a priest, Joe asked, “Who gave the modernists of Vatican II the authority to arbitrarily change this sacrament of the priesthood?  Did Christ make a mistake?” ********************************************

Joe: remember how Philip catechized and baptized the Ethiopian eunuch who was reading from the prophet Isaiah, and how after his baptism, that newly baptized Christian man went back to his community, and catechized everyone there, spreading the Gospel of the Good News of Jesus?

We are all to be doing likewise, in our own native tongue to the lost in the world, as they all did in Acts of the Apostles, getting the church to grow in oneness of faith, and believing in Jesus and salvation through His blood on the cross, and in the power of His resurrection.

PS - I too, have been getting potential Spam messages.  It’s difficult to hold a conversation with lag time in getting thoughts posted.  If NC Reg. webmasters are reading this, I mention this fyi.  Thank you.

... and just because I’d mentioned I too, was sometimes getting potential Spam messages - the above post went right in.  False alarm, this time :)

Hi Joe,  Yes Vatican II did make major changes in its teaching, yet they say that they didn’t change any doctrine.  It used to be that only the priest was allowed to handle the hosts.  He hands had to be consecrated.  Now, every Tom, Dick and Harry handles the host.  Ecumenism was a no-no pre-Vatican II.  Pius x preached against it many times.  I attended Catholic schools pre-Vatican II and we were taught that non-Catholics could not get into heaven.  Now, every one can be saved, even if they don’t believe in Jesus.  As long as they believe in their own gods.  I understand that baptism of desire, blood, etc. was always the case, but the non-Christians had to take Jesus as their savior before they can be saved. 

I’m taking theology classes, and I am the rebel in the class.  We’ve been reading the Vatican II documents and I see changes in doctrine, especially concerning ecumenism.

In the early church, when the Body of Christ met to celebrate the Lord’s Day Supper, every Tom, Dick & Harry did handle the consecrated Body of Christ, even taking it to the infirmed shut-ins, and believers in prison.

While everyone *can* be saved, it does not mean he/she *will* be saved.  God wants all of us to be saved.  But Jesus said He was the ONLY way to the Father.  Jesus is the ONLY way anyone has access to the Father.

Only the Blood of Jesus saves, washing us clean from sin.  By His Blood, we are healed.  Faith comes by HEARING the word of God.  So anyone teaching an “I’m okay, you’re okay” doctrine needs to read the New Testament, starting with Paul’s letters.  That includes clergy in Rome, both prior to & post Vatican II.  God’s word never changes. We just need to know it.

Good for you, Joe DeCarlo, for thinking and speaking up, when you discern something that does not square with Paul’s letters.  God help us.  In this Year of Faith, let’s learn ALL the New Testament letters?  It will do wonders, to correct attempts at ecumenism that are running amok.

Joe DeCarlo, you said,  “We’ve been reading the Vatican II documents and I see changes in doctrine, especially concerning ecumenism.”
  Did the Holy Spirit err?  Does the Holy Spirit need correction? Have you introduced the “Syllabus of Errors”?  Have you asked why the class does not believe in all the Teachings of Holy Mother Church?
  The Catholic Church has always issued strong rebukes against ecumenical ventures (Popes Pius IX, Leo XIII, St. Pius X, Pius XI, and Pius XII come to mind in particular), warning the faithful that such things lead to the ruin of souls.
“…it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ….”
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM
  In Unitatis Redintegratio, Vatican II Council document,  the movement towards ‘unity’ is called Ecumenical.  That fullness of unity already exists in the Roman Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation.  The one-world modernistic religion wants you to forget what the Pontiffs have promulgated in regards to the need to convert to the visibile, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church where there is the unity with Christ.

The monumental error by the dissenters is selfism which blinds them to the fact that they are not the teachers, and to play at being the magisterium is to denigrate and defy Christ Our Saviour and the One who established His Magisterium through St Peter and His Successors against whose teaching no one has any authority. The denigration of the dogma and doctrine taught by all Ecumenical Councils by the Popes and substituting selfist teaching is the petard on which they are hoist to their own destruction. 
The key is assent to dogma and doctrine, with the obedience of faith as St Paul emphasises (Rom 1:5; 16.26), with the St Escriva admonition to be simple but not simpletons.
St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).
“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).
St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).

The monumental error by the dissenters is selfism which blinds them to the fact that they are not the teachers, and to play at being the magisterium is to denigrate and defy Christ Our Saviour and the One who established His Magisterium through St Peter and His Successors against whose teaching no one has any authority. The denigration of the dogma and doctrine taught by all Ecumenical Councils by the Popes and substituting selfist teaching is the petard on which they are hoist to their own destruction. 
The key is assent to dogma and doctrine, with the obedience of faith as St Paul emphasises (Rom 1:5; 16.26), with the St Escriva admonition to be simple but not simpletons.
St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).
“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).

The monumental error by the dissenters is selfism which blinds them to the fact that they are not the teachers, and to play at being the magisterium is to denigrate and defy Christ Our Saviour and the One who established His Magisterium through St Peter and His Successors against whose teaching no one has any authority. The denigration of the dogma and doctrine taught by all Ecumenical Councils by the Popes and substituting selfist teaching is the petard on which they are hoist to their own destruction. 
The key is assent to dogma and doctrine, with the obedience of faith as St Paul emphasises (Rom 1:5; 16.26), with the St Escriva admonition to be simple but not simpletons.

St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).
“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).
St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).
Thus avoid the dissenting bandwagon.

Thomist,  Vatican II were the dissenters.  We Traditional Catholics have stayed with tradition.  We adhere to the past councils of the church which were usurped by Vatican II. 

We now hold hands with Judaism which has rejected Jesus as the Messiah.  Vatican II said that Jews believe in the same God as we do.  No that do not.  Jesus , the Messiah, is God.

Joe, we follow the same doctrines that were used pre-Vatican II.  We pray for the conversion of non-Catholics and non-Christians, which the Novus Ordo does not do.  I am a pre-vatican baby, and I was a altar boy at that time.  I attended 16 years of Catholic school and spent 1 year in seminary.  I find my parish no different than when I was an altar boy.  The teachings are the same, but we are in communion with the pope.

Joe DeCarlo on Saturday, Jan 12, 2013 9:34

The first sentence and the last sentence of your comment is not humanly possible.  In a muddled fashion, you said that you do not accept the Magisterial Teachings of Holy Mother Church.  Think about it!  You believe in the 1789 principles!  Let’s discuss at:
www.bayleaf610@gmail.com

Terah James - ONLY consecrated hands can handle the Host:

Popes have condemned communion in the hand:
POPE ST. EUTYCHIAN (275-283). Forbade the faithful from taking the Sacred Host in their hand.
ST. BASIL THE GREAT, DOCTOR OF THE CHURCH (330-379). “The right to receive Holy Communion in the hand is permitted only in time of persecution.” St. Basil considered Communion in the hand so irregular that he did not hesitate to consider it a grave fault.
COUNCIL OF SARAGOSSA (380). It was decided to punish with EXCOMMUNICATION anyone who dared to continue the practice of Holy Communion in the hand. The Synod of Toledo confirmed this decree.
POPE ST. LEO I THE GREAT (440-461). Energetically defended and required faithful obedience to the practice of administering Holy Communion on the tongue of the faithful.
SYNOD OF ROUEN (650). Condemned Communion in the hand to halt widespread abuses that occurred from this practice, and as a safeguard against sacrilege.
SIXTH ECUMENICAL COUNCIL, AT CONSTANTINOPLE (680-681). Forbade the faithful to take the Sacred Host in their hand, threatening the transgressors with excommunication.
ST. THOMAS AQUINAS (1225-1274). “Out of reverence towards this sacrament [the Holy Eucharist], nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest’s hands, for touching this sacrament.” (Summa Theologica, Pars III, Q. 82, Art. 3, Rep. Obj. 8)
COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-1565). “The fact that only the priest gives Holy Communion with his consecrated hands is an Apostolic Tradition.”

Thomist on Saturday, Jan 12, 2013
I can’t figure you out.  What are you saying?

St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).
“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).
St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).
Thus avoid the dissenting bandwagon by following the Magisterium
.

Pius IX clearly says that all those who are invincibly ignorant, and yet live upright lives ready to obey God, will be saved. God does not allow anyone who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishment.
According to St. Pius X, someone who is outside the Church through no fault of his own, whether he belongs to some other sect of Christianity, or even if has only an implicit desire for baptism, can possess the grace of faith, hope, and charity, and thus be in the state of justification. This faith would have to be an implicit faith in Christ in the case of those who do not know of Him and His church.
http://outsidethechurchnosalvation.blogspot.com.au/2009/06/pius-ix-and-pius-x-on-salvation-by.html

St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).
“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).
St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).
Thus avoid the dissenting bandwagon and assent to the teaching of the Magisterium not the deceivers.

Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).
“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).
St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).
Thus avoid the dissenting bandwagon and assent to the teaching of the Magisterium not the deceivers.

thomist - Please state the site of the encyclical and paragraph number to back up what you say. 
  Your blogsite might be a personal interpretation.

“Quanto Conficiamur Moerore”, Pius IX: “Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”
The point that should be made about this, is that there is a clear contrast in the text between those who are “living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity,” and those who observe “the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God.” Thus, the statement made about the first group does not apply to the second. This is manifest even in the text, since Pius IX states that the first group cannot attain salvation whereas the second group can.

St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).
“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).
St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).
Thus avoid the dissenting bandwagon and assent to the teaching of the Magisterium not the deceivers

From our next pope, Pius X, we have this same teaching clearly asserted in his Catechism. Cardinal Ratzinger made this comment about this Catechism: “The faith, as such, is always the same. Therefore, St. Pius X’s catechism always retains its value . . . it should not be forgotten that that the Catechism stemmed from a text that was prepared by the Pope himself [Pius X] when he was bishop of Mantua. The text was the fruit of the personal catechetical experience of Giuseppe Sarto, whose characteristics were simplicity of exposition and depth of content.”
Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved? (A.9 Q.29)
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

Lumen gentium, states the Church is “at the same time holy and always in need of being purified,” that she must always pursue “the path of penance and renewal.” (LG 8). 
  According to this document of Vatican II, Christ’s Church has not been continuously and consistently holy.  Is it arrogance or timidity and weakness that prevents men from speaking out against this atrocity that attacks Holy Mother Church?  But than of course if we study this further we discover that it is not speaking out against the “Catholic Church” but the church that ‘subsists in’ the Catholic Church.
  Regardless, great harm is heaped upon the Catholic Faith and many have lost their true Catholic identity because of the new religion and the new church contrived by Vatican II. Does anybody agree?

  In Novemver 2012 Fr. Luigi Villa died at 95 years of age.  He was given a special commission by Pope Pius XII to expose the evils against the Catholic Church.  Read on line “Who Is F. Luigi Villa”.
  To cease to be protestant and secular, read about the three little children at Fatima who had unbelievable courage to withstand the cruel threats by the authorities who wanted them to deny that Our Lady asked them to “tell the priests…tell the people not only to pray but to repent.”  They obeyed Our Blessed Mother, like St. Peter in his word who said, “We must obey God rather than men”. 
    Where is that noble courage today?  All we hear about are treaties with compromises to Catholic doctrine, and discussions with pretenses to unite.