“Obviously, this kind of thing is more than distressing to most Catholics”
and what about all the victims of the serial child rapist? It is absolutely horrible that you would compare keeping the secrets of a child rapist to allowing equal rights of a minority. I know the Catholic Church has a low level of tolerance for gays, but again, it appears those who support the church dont find child rape to be offensive, still, as they seem to have protected so many for so many years, while coming out the loudest against equal rights for all. Id like to state another thing, the Catholic Church welcomes Hitler into their fold. Seems the church forgets this part of their history too, while acting like a victim, like most Christians, and complaining all the way to the bank. Your article is so offensive, it is people like you that turn people away from your church.

I think Corey Mondello is very lost in this issue, since he insinuates that all Catholics support pedophilia. The issue here my friend is that priests are FORBIDDEN from speaking out publicly about ANY BODY’s sins. THIS IS ANTI-CATHOLIC and part of the seal of confession.
And nope, the Church never welcomed Hitler… on the contrary, the Church promoted civil disobedience and open criticism against his rules, as per the words of American rabbi David Bisbel in his book “The myth of Hilter’s Pope”

I think you are very ofensive and very divisive Corey…. it is actually people like you who are so lost and with no Faith in life that turn whites away from the Faith, since Blacks and Latinos have proven to more enthusiastic about their Faith themselves !

Actually it should affect all the churches and ecclesial communities that hold Confession to be a Sacrament and/or to the Seal of Confession. Singling out Catholic priests to break that seal, and not the Lutherans, Episcopalians or Orthodox Church to also do so shows what their agenda really is.

It’s not only a matter of church - state freedom.  It’s also a matter of how government is eating away at all personal freedom. High taxes and all kinds of mandates and acts forced upon the general population don’t protect the individual.

Corey,

I am clueless as to what gays have to do with this issue, since the Catechism refers to all lust as disordered, including that in heterosexuals.

If there’s any one thing that I find most amazing these days, it’s this:
Those who will militate against the Church doing what She does..almost always insist that they’re own actions or beliefs can’t possibly be construed as “religion” in any way, shape, or form. No way and no how.

So, the Obama Administration most likely will ultimately discern how to violate the Constitution, even with the Supreme Court’s blessing. If you don’t believe or act as the President says, you’ll be jailed.

Gotta love the ringers they use to strain the First Amendment!

Corey,
Let’s see a citation that proves the Catholic Church ‘welcomed’ Hitler into the fold.  Prove it.

Matt, Pat:

This is a dummy comment to see if it’ll go thru via my iPhone. I’d been having some difficulty at Steve’s blog. Feel free to delete but please wait until tomorrow.

Thanks
Victor

What Mister Archibald complains about does have some truth but he sees it from an unhelpful perspective. I would say that as society becomes more philosophically diverse it is bound to be the case that the prevailing moral code of conduct, (and then ultimately the law), will appear more and more at odds with the tenets of any one creed. It is also true that when the practises of any one creed seriously diverge from the prevailing moral code of conduct that society and government will seek to bring that creed more into line with what is deemed acceptable. Ultimately the creed may find itself outside the law in its particular practices.

I don’t hold out much hope for Catholics or anyone else who wants to buck the trend. However, if you want to buck the trend the way to go is not to climb on the high horse of religious privilege but to ensure that government and society do not infringe as a matter of dogma and love of conformity but only to ensure the smooth running of society so that mutual support and co-operation are maximised along with an appropriate level of personal freedom. The way to do this is by argument and innovative ideas that enable both government and your particular creed to meet their respective objectives.

If I might venture a particular criticism of the Catholic approach: You cannot make people more moral by seeking to use the law to prohibit people from being immoral. As supporters of the idea of free will Catholics should defend the freedom to sin, (as they see it). You must defend and promote your view with argument, not coercion. If this proves impossible you should perhaps revise your view.

“You cannot make people more moral by seeking to use the law to prohibit people from being immoral. As supporters of the idea of free will Catholics should defend the freedom to sin, (as they see it).”

I see at least two critical errors here.
First, this assessment assumes that a person will definitely violate the law if the person considers the law..ignorant. I think this a very cynical view. I think the efforts to confront abortion have been effective in that they’ve provoked women and men to reconsider their actions. We’ve even caused some women to cease seeing a conceived child as some sort of cancerous growth, they’ve been provoked to see themselves as prospective mothers instead.

I also think it ludicrous to encourage someone to sin because of free will. I think it noteworthy that such an approach has been the effective position of many a political candidate. ..And rather than seeing sin decrease, we’ve seen sin abound all the more, precisely because we demonstrate that we really don’t care that much.

If you believe you’re being coerced, perhaps you should reconsider WHAT you intended doing that caused someone to act.
I’ve rarely seen the Church act against some form of behavior that She should’ve left be.

Morals are not relative or subjective. Objective Truth exists, even if you wish to refuse it.

@John

“First, this assessment assumes that a person will definitely violate the law if the person considers the law..ignorant.”

I make no such assumption. My view is that religion, in moral terms, should be concerned with people’s inclination. It is the job of the state not religion to coerce compliance in important matters by use of the law.

You should note that their are already states where abortion is more or less on demand and available as part of social health care free of charge at the point of need. Yet the abortion rate and birth of unwanted children is lower than in the US.

And this happens because of a more morally responsible attitude and a greater level of education, empowerment, equality and self respect among women.

Even if the Church were to succeed in the US in its campaign to make abortion illegal it is unlikely to succeed in reducing the number of abortions among American women. Almost all of them will find a way although many, among the poor, will die in the attempt.

The Churches wilful ignorance and denial of reality in this matter is bordering on the criminal.

GordonHide,

People die in legal abortion clinics. The legal issue at this point is off the charts in the U.S.  It’s not going to happen. The pro-life movement has made success being a grassroots movement, changing minds and hearts, has accomplished a lot more than a single politician. Politicians talk, but do nothing on both sides.

The pro-life movement needs to continue doing what’s its doing.

“You should note that their are already states where abortion is more or less on demand and available as part of social health care free of charge at the point of need. Yet the abortion rate and birth of unwanted children is lower than in the US.”

That’s a VERY vague assertion, GordonHide. You fail to demonstrate precisely how many nation-states would fit this description. You also seem to neglect any possibility of any other factor being involved.

Your contention would seem to suggest that anything at all that you don’t like that the Church proposes would ultimately involve coercion, not reason. Well, two can play that game: Pro-lifers have been coerced into tolerating the intentions of the abortion rights lobby for decades. If reason had been involved, most abortion facilities would’ve been shut down long ago due to violations of normal health facility procedures. A few State’s Attourney’s General have finally been prodded to act because they couldn’t ignore the problem any longer.

If the Church’s efforts border on criminal, you’d need to demonstrate which crime has been committed. Outside that, all you’ve got is the usual overheated rhetoric.

@John—
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“People die in legal abortion clinics.”
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Yes, but at nowhere near the rate at which they die in childbirth or in back street abortions. I think you have to face the fact that legal abortions save women’s lives. Countries without legal abortion like the philippines still have lots of abortions but also lots of dead women.

Abortions also save lots of baby lives! Countries with a high birth rate have a much greater rate of infant mortality.

The following countries have:
-
A much lower abortion rate than the US
Abortion more or less on demand
Abortion costs covered in social medicine at least for the poor:
-
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Germany
Netherlands
Greece
Austria
Belgium
Switzerland

Gordon,

Former abortionists themselves have admitted that illegal abortion rates are hiked up, just to keep abortion legal. Try Bernard Nathanson, Abby Johnson etc. Abortion is a billion dollar industry.

“We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law.

“Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalizing abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalization.

http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html

http://www.unplannedthebook.com/

In Europe, Ireland has the lowest maternal death rate with 1 maternal deaths for every 100,000 live births, while Poland was at 27 with 8 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births.

Data from other regions also found that the countries with the most restrictive abortion bans also had the lowest maternal death rates:

In Africa, the country with the lowest maternal death rate (15 per 100,000) is Mauritius, which also has the toughest laws against abortion, while Ethiopia, which recently decriminalized abortion, has a rate 48 times higher (720 per 100,000). The African country with the most liberal abortion laws, South Africa, has a maternal death rate of 400 per 100,000 live births.

In Asia, Nepal has no restrictions on abortion and also has one of the world’s highest mortality rates (830 per 100,000) while Sri Lanka had the lowest rates in Asia (58 per 100,000) and one of the strictest abortion bans in the world.

In South America, Chile has constitutional protection for the unborn and a death rate of 16 per 100,000. The highest maternal death rate (430 per 100,000) was found in Guyana, which has almost unrestricted abortion.

“I think you have to face the fact that legal abortions save women’s lives.”

I have no such fact being presented.
We’re seeing more and more evidence these days that in some cases, abortions have brought about the immediate death of a woman. In other cases, the woman couldn’t conceive or give birth later, due to damage inflicted during the abortion. We also have the distinct possibility that many abortion providers have much greater “casualty rates” than they admit, but which aren’t investigated because some State’s Attourney’s General don’t wish to get into the thick of it. But some have and the results have not been so good for Planned Parenthood.

Additionally, we must assume that a 50% casualty rate for patients will be deemed acceptable. Granted, law does not acknowledge personhood for an unborn child at present. ..While it’s long since cliche, I keep wondering how we’re going to explain to future generations that we condemned the Nazi Holocaust of Jewish and other peoples, yet we willingly allowed for the deaths of millions, possibly even hundreds of millions.

Don’t forget, the Nazis did as they did because they ultimately labeled the Jews and other groups as “lacking personhood” too.
Haunting really.

BTW, I understand Europe to be dying off only a little more rapidly than we in America. At least one of those nations you mention has already gone bust financially and been compelled to cut back on some social benefits.

Of the others, they aren’t doing so well population growth wise either and are also beginning to struggle financially.

It’ll be interesting to see whether these nations last for another 100 years, or if they’ll literally die off and be replaced. ..Or if they’ll simply become someone else’s property by virtue of massive debts owed.

You haven’t portrayed social bliss at all with these. You’ve come closer to portraying national suicide.

@John—
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You are being deceived by your own propaganda. Legal abortion is much safer than child birth. On the other hand there are 78,000 women’s deaths a year from illegal abortion. These deaths can be laid at the feet of “pro life” types such as yourself. I see you are resorting to denying the facts. You realise you are implying that death certificates have been deliberately falsified on a massive scale.

Your concern for the fate of a few million human cells is such that you wish to make half the human race slaves of the state unable to rest control of their own bodily functions from those who would force them to bear children. What’s more if you look at infant death rates in countries which don’t have abortion its not even clear that you end up saving any life at all. But you do massively increase human suffering.
—
The population of Europe is, unfortunately, increasing by leaps and bounds. Your solution to European problems seem to be to increase the number of unwanted children to become a further burden on welfare budgets. Neither Europe nor the US has jobs even for those born at the current birth rate.

Hmm…Speaking of propaganda, Gordon:
—78,000 illegal abortions would seem to indicate that either there’re many providers who’re failing to uphold routine medical standards, or else someone has made what amounts to a guess based on speculative appraisals. The former would appear to be a prosecutable offense, the latter can’t rationally be used as evidence in a court of law. I need documented evidence to back these claims.
—If there have, indeed, been documented cases of deliberately falsified death certificates on a massive scale, I should see indictments and convictions on grounds of HIPAA violations or general fraud all over the country. I have seen none. Again, please demonstrate the merits of your charge.
—Those “few million human cells” you rail against have been proven by ultrasound to have human form, heartbeats, and even to respond to stimuli by 28 days. We also have the realization that such “blobs” never develop into birds, monkeys, fish, or other creatures. When carried to term, they come out quite human.
—If you wish to declare that half the human race has been enslaved, you’d need to demonstrate how laws have allowed all women to become sex slaves. While many laws all over the world ALLOW a woman to be sexually active if she so chooses, I know of none in the US at least that require a woman to be sexually active in any way, shape, or form.
—If you wish to complain that women lose control of their own bodies, you need to explain how you can know precisely what may happen if you choose sexual intimacy, have the ability to make the choice to be sexually active or not, but still lack the authority to control your bodily functions.

If you make the choice have sex, you make the choice to possibly become a mother.

I agree that the population of Europe has increased. I might remind you though, this has occurred mostly due to immigration, especially incoming Islamic populations. Outside that, the actual birth rates in Europe have been falling for decades. Part of the financial problem that Europe faces comes about because they have too little ability to tax people’s income adequately. They literally LACK for people whose labor COULD be taxed. (This does, of course, assume that the State automatically has a right to the fruits of a person’s labor. The State’s are nowhere near as extensive as has been alleged.)

BTW, it’s a minor point, really, but twice now, you’ve accused me of saying something that I didn’t. Please respond to savvy if appropriate, not me.

@savvy—
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The movement to legalise abortion can hardly be blamed for individual examples of dishonesty. They are the ones after all who actually care about women’s wellbeing and personal freedom. In any case nobody would have believed there were a million illegal abortions a year.
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Your view that legal abortion is easily available in the US is disingenuous. There are huge areas where the facilities are not available and the costs are significant for the poor. It’s a good bet that much illegal abortion is still practised. That’s where your high death rate comes from and it’s because legal safe abortion is not available to many.
-
Your view that Ireland has the lowest MMR in Europe is not true as well as probably being irrelevant. Here are the real numbers:

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=2223

As you can see Ireland is beaten by several countries that have real on demand abortion delivered free at the point of need as part of social health care. What’s more Ireland has not been counting the numbers correctly. This Irish Times article shows the problem:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2012/1204/1224327432048.html

I have found an article by a women who has obviously been hit by the same suspect stats you quoted to me:

http://feministire.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/abortion-laws-and-maternal-mortality-rates-deconstructing-the-anti-choice-spin/

She did the research and has fully analysed where you went wrong. So you’ll have to do better.

Gordon,

You are joking, that legal abortion is not available to many in the US or that it’s prevents illegal abortions, since a number of PP clinics have been shut down for breaking laws.

Jacqueline Harvey this week writes about a new study published in the International Journal of Women’s Health showing that AGI’s figures for illegal abortions in Mexico in 2006 and 2009 were grossly overestimated.

“The study titled, ‘Fundamental Discrepancies In Abortion Estimates And Abortion-Related Mortality: A Reevaluation Of Recent Studies In Mexico With Special Reference To The International Classification Of Diseases’ was conducted by a panel of six epidemiologists at four universities in the U.S., Mexico and Chile and examines the actual figures produced by the Federal District of Mexico and confirmed by an independent, non-governmental agency that supports legal abortion.”

http://www.dovepress.com/articles.php?article_id=11688

Gordon,
Your view would seem to declare that every person in every place has the right to demand abortion from anyone who might be available. I should think this would be problematic. No person has the right to compel another to inflict an act that a person could consider immoral.

I understand that you and many detest this notion, but you’ve been proving for a few years now that the only “choice” that you’ll approve is the choice to abort. All other choices must be condemned according to you.
..And now we have efforts to require all Americans to pay for contraception.

Some “freedom”.

@John

“No person has the right to compel another to inflict an act that a person could consider immoral.”

On the contrary. The state has the right to enforce the law irrespective of the moral code of conduct of the transgressor. It’s the nature of human society. In order to benefit from society every individual gives up a certain amount of personal freedom insofar as they must obey the law and conform to the general moral code of conduct. If an individual fails to do this they can expect to be coerced by organs of the state or by their fellow citizens, hopefully using methods appropriate to the seriousness of the infraction.

“I understand that you and many detest this notion, but you’ve been proving for a few years now that the only “choice” that you’ll approve is the choice to abort. All other choices must be condemned according to you.”

It is true that I regard the freedom of women to control their own bodily functions as very important and non-negotiable as is not bringing unwanted children into the world to a probable miserable existence.