One objection raised by some Protestants is this: If the Immaculate Conception is truly apostolic teaching, then why do the Eastern Orthodox Churches reject it? After all, those Churches trace their lineage to apostolic times just as the Catholic Church does. To answer that, we have to understand why the Roman Church developed her doctrine in the way she did and why the East did not take the same path.
Some people have the notion the Eastern Orthodox Churches reject the Immaculate Conception because a few early Eastern Fathers (Origen, Basil, and John Chrysostom) expressed a couple of doubts about Mary’s sinlessness. Origen thought that, during Christ’s Passion, the sword that pierced Mary’s soul was disbelief. Basil had the same notion. And John Chrysostom thought her guilty of ambition and pushiness in Matthew 12:46 (an incident we have already examined).
But the remarkable thing about these opinions is how isolated they turn out to be. Essentially, they demonstrate (once again) something about the development of doctrine that we’ve already seen in connection with the Trinity: The Catholic Church is not a monolith and her people, even very good people, sometimes voice in good faith ideas that end up departing from the orthodox norm. For the reality is that, apart from these three, the overwhelming consensus of the Fathers in both east and west is that Mary is “most pure,” (Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom) “formed without any stain,” (Proclus, Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort., I, 3) “all-Holy,”( Hippolytus, Against Beron and Helix, Frag VIII) “undefiled,” (Ibid) “spotless,”( Hippolytus, A Discourse on the End of the World) “immaculate of the immaculate,”( Origen, Homily 1) “inviolate and free from every stain of sin,”( Ambrose, Commentary on Psalm 118, 22–30) and created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures.( Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140) In short, for the Eastern Fathers, as for the Catholic Church, Mary is as St. Ephraim describes her:
Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity . . . alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate( Ephraim the Syrian, Precationes ad Deiparam in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524– 37).
So if the Eastern Orthodox Churches ignored Origen, Basil, and Chrysostom when they speculated that Mary was sinful, why do they reject the Immaculate Conception? In a nutshell, they reject it because the Immaculate Conception is the answer to a number of questions the Eastern Christians were never much interested in asking. And if you don’t ask the questions, you don’t come up with the answers. But, as we shall see, that’s cold comfort for Evangelicals.
The Pelagian Controversy
Here’s the deal: In the fifth century, a question arose in the Western Church: “Are we sinners because we sin or do we sin because we are sinners?” A monk from Britain named Pelagius began to teach that we are only sinners because we sin, and so we can save ourselves simply by willing not to sin anymore. Jesus, said Pelagius, was primarily sent as a good example. Our task was to just grit our teeth and, through sheer will power, imitate him perfectly, thereby freeing ourselves from sin. This notion began to attract some Christians in western Europe because it appealed to a cultural imperative that approved of demanding high and heroic deeds from oneself. There was only one problem: Pelagianism wasn’t true—a fact proven in the Laboratory of Human Experience by everybody who has ever tried it.
The foe of Pelagianism was the great Father of the Western Church, Augustine of Hippo. Basing his argument on Paul’s teaching, Augustine reminded the Pelagians that, in truth, we sin because we are sinners, born of the fallen Adam. This is why, Augustine argued, the Gospel says, “[S]in came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned” (Rom. 5:12). And so, concluded Augustine (with the agreement of the Western bishops and the pope), Pelagius is disastrously wrong to claim that we can, on our own and without God’s aid, save ourselves from sin. For sin is, in its most fundamental reality, the lack of the life of God. And it’s nonsense to speak of restoring the lack of God’s life in our souls without God.
Now all of this was basically believed in the Eastern Orthodox Churches as well. Eastern Orthodox Christians read the same Pauline letters their Roman cousins read. But the Pelagian controversy never really affected the Eastern Churches. So the Eastern theologians never saw much point to closely defining just how it occurs that we are sinners, and therefore they never got around to fussing much about philosophical terms like “original sin.” The East simply tended to affirm the broad and mysterious statement that we are all sinners “in Adam” and left it at that.
Why does this matter? Because if you don’t have a concept of original sin threshed out and articulated as it has been in the West, then you don’t need to explain how it is that Mary isn’t affected by original sin. You can—and, until need arises, probably should —simply do what the Eastern Churches did: acclaim Mary as “Panagia” or “All Holy” (i.e. sinless), sing “Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!”( Akathist Hymn to the Blessed Virgin Mary) and leave it at that. That’s why there’s not much comfort for Evangelicals in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. For Eastern Orthodoxy doesn’t bother with the notion of original sin (which Evangelicals, relying on Catholic tradition, insist upon) while heaping the same accolades on Mary’s sinless life that Catholics do.




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There’s really nothing to reject. Communion with God was severed. Death entered the world and mankind was taken hostage by evil. “Biblically” that is according to my Bible. Death was nailed to the Cross [St Paul]
God was “never” not in Communion with himself. Nor could He be born of a Soul not in Communion with Him for this defeats the Cross.
There is but one of two ways Mary was sanctified, either at the moment of Her Conception or immediately after. You tell me what does Almighty God, all wisdom, love and perfection who knew Mary as you “before” you were conceived. So let me get this right from the EO view. Mary falls in the mud then God saves Her? Or He saves Her before She falls in the mud?
No my dear friends its not as simple as you think. Mary was indeed preserved not because She is perfect, but because God is perfect, and Jesus Christ being the Living God could not be but perfect. And surely He thought of Eve and all that folly in the Garden “before” He thought of Mary. Yes She was human, but in this all important “singular grace” she was “perfectly Graced” according to the “Greek” language.
Grace and Peace to all my Brothers and Sisters in the East.
I forgot to add that he as pope of course endorsed a theological group’s study about limbo in 2007 and sent the teaching to burn in some hot place. The pain that the limbo teaching caused is immeasurable.
That was a cautious way of endorsing baptism and agreeing that baptism of desire and by blood are both valid also. And also and indirect way of saying that limbo is a dead issue for unbaptized dead babies.
Just to clear up any misunderstanding on limbo: Cardinal Ratzinger (later Benedict XVI) told Vittorio Messori in a published interview in 1984: “Limbo was never a defined truth of the faith. Personally - and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as Prefect of the Congregation - I would abandon it since it was only a theological hypothesis. It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which is absolutely of first significance for the faith, namely, the importance of baptism. …. One should not hesitate to give up the idea of ‘limbo’ if need be (and it is worth noting that the very theologians who proposed ‘limbo’ also said that parents could spare the child limbo by desiring its baptism and through prayer); but the concern behind it must not be surrendered. Baptism has never been a side issue for the faith; it is not now, nor will it ever be.”
Bottom line (as I see it): God binds us to baptism; He does not necessarily bind Himself to it.
//A baby is
absolutely unable to benefit from Eucharist until she is aware of the
personal relationship,//
That is exactly the argument some Protestants make against infant baptism. As well, your argument smacks of Gnosticism—the heresy that God cannot work in our lives until we have “knowledge.”
You are right. Faith is a relationship, but it is one in which GOD takes the initiative.
@ LoneThinker: I assume you are Roman Catholic…. in which case, if you are arguing against infant communion, why did the western church practice it until the 12th century? Why did you suddenly “discover” this was a problem?
And for that matter, if its such a problem, why does the Eastern rite, in communion with Rome still practice it? Why doesn’t your pope tell them that they are fools and wasting their time?
This is one of the reasons why Roman Catholicism just looks totally weird. Either the Eastern rites are wasting their time with foolishness, or the western rite children are missing a significant grace because they lost the plot in the 12th century. Which is your poison?
As for your question about Eastern baptism, your question was answered, but you don’t seem to have taken it on board.
We who think are well aware of the anomaly of adapting an adult rite to babies but my question was why does the East do it your way? A baby is absolutely unable to benefit from Eucharist until she is aware of the personal relationship, we are not robots and HE honours our free choice. The parents say yes for the Baptism and promise to raise the children in the Faith. The Greek phrase “do not hinder” translated badly in English as “suffer” the children, from the Latin “patient” which is not suffer, or patient or patience but let them, “do not hinder them” is the same as St Peter used, to widen the circle of those who may receive baptism. It itspecifically applied to baptism and we know from the jailer and his family whom Paul baptized and the eunuch by Philip there was certainly no Eucharist for the adults or the children. Paul talks of baptizing, not full initiation which came later and as I note corrupted by separating Eucharist from your “chrismation” our confirmation and you give communion which is obviously the body and blood of Christ to babies incapable of saying yes. I repeat my question- why do you baptize babies if there is nothing from which to save them, or avoid, whether you call it original sin or flawed defective mind and will that they inherit with no subjective guilt of their own as they do not have?
““IF the East does not have a concept of original sin why baptise babies and
give them holy communion”’
We baptize babies and bring them to Communion from then on in order to bring them as close to Christ as it is possible for us to do in this life. Jesus Christ Himself said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them.”
The real question is why does the Latin Church, contrary to ancient practice, baptize infants and then deny them Communion for the better part of a decade.
“IF the East does not have a concept of original sin why baptise babies and give them holy communion”
Depending what you mean by original sin. The East doesn’t consider it damnable guilt, rather a corruption and tendancy to sin. Baptism is a grace to help overcome it.
deacon JS; That post makes no sense. IF the East does not have a concept of original sin why baptise babies and give them holy communion, a hold-over from the ancient model of initiation. That is just one simple glaring illogical point. The language of East and West diverged but there is no fundamental split since there is a different understanding of “original” sin. We insist that there is no personal, subjective sin in a new-born, so baptism does not take away “original” sin as a personal subjective fault. Whatever we mean by Adam and Eve, I am loyally RC, I long since ceased to take it as dogma that every human being came from a First Couple. I believe god did not ordain incest for them or for Noah and family. There is a theology that was confused with a story taken too “literally,” in the popular sense, but literal in the sense that God had a meaning. Therefore whatever we inherit as humans from our ancestors deeds or the culture of death they passed on to us, escaped Mary in her conception in Anne’s womb, and cannot in any way be granted at the incarnation when she was greeted in our Greek translation as “as full of God’s favour, grace, free gift as she could be.” how could Gabriel say that if only at that point Jesus’ favour was granted, His Paschal Mystery was anticipated way before that in her special case to have the perfect Ark to contain Him as the new Covenant. Check Rev. 11-12 and forget the artificial chapter breaks to read the Woman who is Ark and mother of a Child, and Satan tries to kill tHem both as well as His followers. “overshadowing” in Luke echoes the Shekinah that was over the Ark of the OT that anticipated a Flesh and Blood Person who was formed in her ark, prepared for that Yes that she had to give to preserve her freedom as jesus also had to utter a Yes to be free also as a Human to “freely offer His life.” PEACE- EIRENE!
Mark, your article’s main point (I think) is roughly this: Protestants raise, as one objection to the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception, the fact that the Eastern Church never believed it. You explain this by saying, more or less, that the reason the East never believed the dogma wasn’t that the East thought it was false, but rather that the East never really considered the question.
Now there’s some truth to that, in the sense that we never thought through the question of Mary’s sinlessness on the basis of typical Western assumptions about the nature of sin, and especially of original sin. But the reason the East never considered Mary in the light of the Western ideas of sin is that the East *rejects the Western concept of original sin*. It’s not just that we never happened to think through the issue of Our Lady’s being “conceived without sin”; it’s that we consider that your tools for thinking about the issue are false, and have led you (that is, you Roman Catholics) to false conclusions. We *reject* your dogma, we *disbelieve* it. It’s not just that we haven’t gotten around to considering it yet.
Joseph, Pete:
I don’t know who you are referring to.
Yikes. This person really doesn’t know much about the Orthodox Church, huh?
What complete poppycock. Even a short reading of any theological discussion of the Orthodox understanding of the nature of sin would show that we reject almost all of this heresy.
Here’s the University of Dayton’s “Mary and the Fountain in Art” page:
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/aoeu.htm
Note the symbolic representation of the ‘Veil’ of God’s revelation used in Eastern icons is draped from buildings on the left in all images of scripture that predate the Annunciation, from then on the textile spans the celestial space enclosing edifices on the right hand side of the icon, or not quite yet fully spanning it as this icon of the presentation in the temple shows:
http://soulfoodcrctoronto.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html
where the veil drawn atop the ‘huppah’ indicates the revelation to Simeon is not yet the universal theophany of the Baptism in the Jordan (or at the Visitation where
the as-yet invisible incarnate revelation crosses the chasm and the veil appears on Elizabeth’s side of the street as the revelation is made known to her by the other hidden child, John the Baptist in her womb, shown in this Maronite icon in arabic:
http://communio.stblogs.org/Visitation1.jpg
A similar veil-huppa convention is used for a non-canonical tradition of Mary being presented to the Temple by St Joachim and St Anne
http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/images/presentation_of_theotokos.jpg
Here’s veil-as-revelation in the image of doubting Thomas
http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/images/thomas.jpg
the archetypal image of our separated brethren, no? It depicts the passage read on every year on Divine Mercy Sunday of course, so we have hope that the mystery of faith will yet be revealed to those like Thomas not able to discern using raw reason alone.
Enjoy!
You’re most welcome Mark
There’s lots more (follow on post will need freeing from span-limbo)
“My question asked someone to explain what difference is supposed to exist
between the Eastern-Orthodox view of man before and after the fall, and the
view of the Catholic church”
I’ll take a shot at it. Roman Catholics believe we are born with original sin - a damnable guilt. Which is why they invented limbo to give the babies a slightly better place to go than hell. Eastern Orthodox believe we are born with a propensity to sin, and a likelihood to sin, but not yet any actual sin or guilt. Thus EO do not have limbo. In the same way, EO can’t accept the immaculate conception because every human being is born without original sin, as understood by RC.
Clare:
Thank you for your thoughtful comments!
R C Apologies that my answer was confusing. Part might be the old incorrect way of taking Adam and Eve as literally the two original humans. Simply put; something can go wrong, each of us has a choice to make, be Adam-Eve as in trying to be god and rejected the created condition and become gods. Hubris. OR Jesus who was God but abandoned himself to the human condition and was obedient. Humble and obedient. It makes no sense to transfer Mary’s freedom from the messed up human condition to the incarnation. She was already prepared for her special gifts in anticipation of Jesus’ self-giving aka death-rising. Neither can we claim that freedom from sin saved Jesus from death because he died physically, , same for Mary, she may have escaped physical death which was never defined, but her Assumption was. Either way, both East and Latin Churches agree to her special role as Mother of God, Theotokos, defined at Ephesus in 431. PEACE and I pray this is clearer,
LoneThinker:
I thank you…but if you answered my question directly then I don’t think I understood your answer. (The structure of the reply, a succession of run-on sentences, does make that a bit difficult!)
My question asked someone to explain what difference is supposed to exist between the Eastern-Orthodox view of man before and after the fall, and the view of the Catholic church, in relation to Mary as the New Eve, her sinlessness, and her Immaculate Conception.
Specifically I wanted to know what assumptions were different which would allow anyone to argue the (seemingly preposterous) position that the Catholic view implies Mary could not have sinned even if she chose to…or rather, could not have chosen to sin.
That, I gather, is why the Orthodox claim the Immaculate Conception is wrong: That it would make Mary incapable of choosing to sin. But since the Catholic view is that the Immaculate Conception means that Mary was born without the stain of original sin, and thus in the same state as Eve was when Eve was first created with Original Grace, the Catholic view implies not that Mary could not have sinned, but rather that she could have chosen to do so, but (enabled by God’s grace) chose not to do so: That Mary passed the test which Eve had failed.
Thus Mary’s sinlessness is not something Pelagian she achieved on her own, nor is it something Calvinistic in which she had no role but to be an automaton directed by God like some remote-control car. But she did have the benefit of Original Grace, as Eve did…and she made better use of that benefit than Eve did.
That, at least, is my understanding (I am open to correction by anyone who can show me that I have somehow misunderstood some detail of the teaching of the Church).
If I have stated the Catholic view correctly, then let me say that it seems perfectly reasonable and logical and in no way to require that Mary is an automaton. But if that is the Orthodox critique—that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception makes Catholic doctrine crypto-Calvinist—then it seems a singularly silly critique.
But I doubt that the Eastern Orthodox are “silly”: It would be out-of-character for them.
So, I wonder if, instead, I have misunderstood their critique. Still, dixibehr said, “Some Orthodox theologians, among them St. John Maximovitch of San Francisco, believe that [the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception] puts her in a position where it was impossible for her to have sinned.” It was that notion I found surprising, and asked someone to explain.
Now, LoneThinker, in reading your replies, I see that you say a lot, but I don’t see that it clearly answers my question.
You say: “REPLY TO RC; I wrote above.” Are you saying that you already answered the question I asked? Where? I don’t see such an answer anywhere “above” your last comment.
You say: “We recall the old understanding of the Garden Myth, as in sacred story, not fake/imagined in the popular sense….” I presume that “we” here means the Catholic Magisterium?
You say, “...physical death was prevented by Original Grace.”
I don’t question that; though I wonder about its particulars. It certainly means that Adam couldn’t be physically harmed against his will, but does it mean Adam was incapable of allowing himself to be physically harmed by choice?
If Jesus is “the second Adam” we should expect the first Adam’s ability-to-be-harmed to be either (a.) the same as, or (b.) some kind of foreshadowing, of Jesus’ pre-Resurrection status. And while Jesus clearly couldn’t be killed against His will, He was able to lay His life down.
I speculate that a person who, while in a state of Fullness-Of-Grace, physically incurred enough bodily damage to cause their heartbeat and brain activity to cease, could be called “dead” in a physical sense…but their spirit would remain fully alive, aware, and even in possession of their body rather than ejected from it. Would they therefore be “dead?” The body-damage would say yes, but the state of the soul would say no. It seems to me that the word “death” would be deprived of its sorrow and power.
It seems to me that they would be so spiritually alive (so filled with the Holy Spirit who is the Giver Of Life) as to be able, at will, to heal that body and rise up again. They’d be none the worse for wear. They could, of course, opt to keep scars from the earlier damage, but they wouldn’t have to do so. And it seems to me that a person so united to God would only receive damage to their body if they allowed it for some reason, and opted not to instantaneously heal it. If they opted to feed a tiger their arm because the tiger was hungry, they could grow it back again, or physically die and rise again a day later, or maybe even decorporalize, spend ten thousand years in the presence of God, and recorporealize on Earth for a visit when desired. A lot of people seem to picture the Garden of Eden as existing in a world without tsunamis; I would rather expect it was a world in which human beings, because of the miraculous infilling of divine grace, could safely surf on tsunamis.
But that is speculation on my part. It seems to me to have explanatory power and to fulfill everything the Catholic Magisterium requires us to believe about preternatural gifts of pre-fallen man. But of course if the Catholic Church says otherwise, I submit to the Church.
You say: “...a test that [if] A and E passed the test, every human after would live physically forever, and we would not lose Grace.”
Yes, right. Although one wonders about the potential population problem. If humans multiply without death, this seems inevitable. On the other hand, if my speculation is accurate, perhaps most unfallen humans would opt, sooner or later, to allow their physical body to cease functioning (a voluntary act, not “death”; not something which they can’t help), in order to rise and take on a spiritual body such as the Resurrected Christ now has. And in that case they could leave the earth to the physically-bodied unfallen humans who had not yet matured to that step, and alleviate the population problem by worshiping in Heaven’s Throne Room for awhile…or by making a pilgrimage to Alpha Centauri, for all I know. But, again, that’s speculation: And subject to the Church’s correction in all ways.
You say: “It is obvious that since Jesus was sinless, why did He not escape physical death….” Well, He specifically told us that nobody TOOK His life from Him; He laid it down of His own accord. Nobody MADE Him suffer, He allowed the actions of others to wound Him. I suspect that had He opted, He could have just let whips bounce off His skin like bullets bouncing off Superman’s chest; I suspect that had He opted, He could have endured all kinds of blood loss and stab-wounds and suffocation on the cross and just Kept On Breathing. After all, if the Holy Spirit, coming upon a mere wafer of bread, can make that bread literally a “living sacrifice,” then I suppose the Spirit of God can make a human body stay alive, no matter how damaged.
You say: “...if He was obedient unto death - 2 PHIL 6-11, was He actually free as a Man to say no.” Of course. No argument there!
You say, “Same for Mary…Mary had to be free as a normal human to sin, regardless of how or when she was cleansed of sin.” Well, naturally. But again, my original post was asking about the Orthodox critique of the Catholic understanding of all this. For the Catholics say that their view does not make Mary an automaton incapable of sin, anymore than the same state made Eve an automaton incapable of sin. If, therefore, there are some Orthodox who say that the Catholic view implies that Mary was an automaton, I wonder where they could possibly get such a notion?
Thanks.
Mark
my 6 URLs have got blocked in the spam filter
Can you pls unblock my post (and keep the URLS they’re key to the visual point, one I made some years back, Google “Blog by the sea” and “living water” for more on why this mystery of our faith is central and inseperable to the ‘communio’ of the Holy Spirit dwelling in the vessel of the human heart.
Mark’s rational approach to the bona fides of the East is a Western way to elucidate the chasm of understanding represented by the schism and its historical aftermath. Breathing with two lungs the one Body of Christ his Bride mother Church is imbued with an inscrutable Wisdom not best served by overly scrupulous scrutiny in comboxes, so bear with me. Visual evidence of Eastern understanding of the Virgin’s vaunted role as the only human mediator of graces is pretty indisputable.
Their icons contain many richer, deeper and more varied references to patristic parsing of biblical Marian typology than our sappy traditional Western devotional art does. Perhaps God in his Wisdom has deigned it thus that the Protestants be attracted to an orthodoxy of worship to encounter the orthopraxy of the new Eve’s inimitable purity? Mary’s intact virginity at Christ’s birth is likened to the Burning Bush Unconsumed encountered by Moses on Mt. Sinai, for example this Coptic icon:
http://www.coptic.net/pictures/Icon.MosesAndTheBurningBush.jpg
(more imagery/typology/theology of the Divine Word and separated brethren here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_bush#Interpretations_from_Eastern_Orthodoxy
Western devotional art expressed the sacred action of Anne & Joachim’s mystically fruitful union of conjugal love as ‘Selbstdritt’ the maternal triadic statuary of Grandma, Madonna and Son:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_selbdritt and
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Madonna_and_Child_with_Saint_Anne
(we have a lovely wooden one displayed in the Medieval room at the Museum of Art in Philadelphia)
The mobius-strip analogy of self-empyting grace of the Divine Son’s sacrficie on the Cross effecting the miraculous generation of his mother’s sinless soul and preserving her perpetual virginity was not expressed with the trigonometrical 3-D solidity of a statuary form. Rather the East has observed consistently a humility in 2-D use of gold backgrounds on flat surfaces (foil on wood, or tesserae on walls) to express the futility of the human faculty ever fully comprehending such heavenly mysteries. Instead Eastern ecclesial art developed not a physical catechesis but a metaphysical one: the fountain typology of sacramental grace as living water flowing unceasingly from the sacred mysteries celebrated at the Divine Liturgy:
http://www.thais.it/speciali/Kariyecamii/hi_res/foto03.htm
(more thoughts in my comments to this blog post http://blog-by-the-sea.typepad.com/blog_bythesea/living_water/
Is what separates us not the rational aspects of our (indirect) descriptions of our understanding (its not “ours” its a gift of the Holy Spirit let’s not forget) but rather the lack of faithful trust in the direct thing we attempt to describe?
Even St Thomas was reduced to declaiming all his works as vanity at the end of his life - words failed him, for the effeable is only self-communicable as gift of graced unity of heart, mind and strength with the Incarnate word’s sacred heart, divine mind and decalogical strength: a unity only ever achieved—this side of heaven—in the soul of the Theotokos.
Thanks Mark for an opportunity to share on one of my favorite topics
‘that they may be one as You and I are One’
Today is the feast of the martyr for Christian unity between East and Rome among the Slavs. It switched me back to some earlier thinking. You recall when BXV1 visited with the Patriarch of Constantinople, Rome’s presence was a powerful boost to the Orthodox population that has already been diminished and is at the mercy of Turkey’s switch from secular under Attaturk to today’s growing Islamic incursions in the entire region. Unity is not only a theological, Jesus-driven desire but a political-religious-sociological imperative REPLY TO RC; I wrote above. We recall the old understanding of the Garden Myth, as in sacred story, not “fake/imagined in the popular sense: physical death was prevented by Original Grace,” as was a test that of A and E passed the test, every human after would live physically forever, and we would not lose Grace. It is obvious that since Jesus was sinless, why did He not escape physical death, and if He was obedient unto death - 2 PHIL 6-11, was He actually free as a Man to say no. Same for Mary, regardless of how East or West properly understands Genesis’s Fall Myth, Mary had to be free as a normal human to sin, regardless of how or when she was cleansed of sin. BTW it was John the Baptist whom we consider to have been “baptized” in the womb, if Mary was baptized after conception, she inherited the flawed sinful nature which is not the same as her “full of grace” status which the Latin Church interprets as being so free of sin and its taint, she was conceived immaculately in her mother’s womb and her father did not pass on the “Original Sin,” I actually interpret that as the choice each of us makes to follow Christ’s Obedience and avoid Sin, or the Adam-Eve refusal to be creatures, play god; that bad choice, over and over destroys the choice each of us makes and we pass on Evil genetically and by example and creating families and structures that perpetuate Adam-Eve - or we do the Jesus choice and becme saints and parents, teachers etc of the Holy.
Can anyone answer my earlier question?
And, I’m still wondering about my reply to Rob, which was “temporarily” held up because of the spam-filter, but has never shown up.
[I had been wondering about apostolic succession, and if the Eucharist as consecrated during a mass my brother would celebrate would be valid and/or if I could receive it without problem?]
Marthe:
Yes… their sacraments are considered valid, but the Church only allows Catholics permission to receive them under certain situations (see Canon 844).
(Note: FYI… even if you had the proper Church permission, you may find that your brother’s Orthodox Church does not agree with intercommunion.)
So… your best bet would be to discuss your own particular ‘special’ situation with your pastor. He should be able to advise and direct you properly on this issue.
God Bless
LoneThinker - You are tilting at windmills. I did not say that we were in full union (which we obviously are not) so you saying so too is no challenge.
Both sides accuse the other of disrespecting Jesus’ teaching of the role of Peter’s successor, the Pope. Once you get in the weeds, it may become self-evident which side is right on who is mistaken but asserting without bothering to prove is just going to annoy. We should not lose sight of the goal, which is full communion, faithful to Jesus’ teachings. Think of patching up a family fight and the pragmatic and willful blindness that is so often a recipe for success in ending longstanding feud. Ultimately, I don’t care if one side is more in error than the other so long as we decide on a faithful to Jesus solution to once again walk together in full communion going forward. Love, understanding, and consistent pressure on the bishops to solve this is desperately needed.
I’ve read that many Orthodox believe that the Theotokos was Sanctified at the Annunciation. The Latin Church believes it was at her conception. So, it would seem that it’s not a case of “if” but “when.”
Perhaps Lone Thinker gives too much weight to what he says is “officially” rejected by the Orthodox Church. Since even the “Ecumenical Patriarch” of Constantinople has a primacy only “of honor”, not “of jurisdiction”, no patriarch—nor any synod of Eastern bishops—can really speak definitively for Eastern Orthodoxy.
And although the comment above of TMLutas may seem at first glance extreme in asserting that the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic are really already one church, albeit not in full comunion, he does have a point, I think: After reading in 1971 an article by one Père M.-Vincent Leroy, the prominent 20-th century Catholic esayist Jacques Maritain was persuaded to the same point. In note 35 of Chapter XIX (“The Canticle of Canticles”) of his posthumous book Untrammeled Approaches, he wrote that “despite all the historical misfortunes, the mutual violences and the mutual excommunications, a certain unity, obscurely lived in the depths, has in fact continued to exist en spite of the schism. One would say that under the instinct of the Holy-Spirit the popes, even those who expressed themselves the most harshly, have always taken care that, in fact, the rupture not be pushed all the way to the end: be it that they have ACCEPTED practically, and in refraining from every formal interdict, a good many things that make the very life of the Orthodox Church (as the validity of the episcopal and sacerdotal ordinations and in general of all the sacraments), be it that in certain cases (as in matter of spiritual jurisdiction), they have themselves given A FREE DELEGATION.”
TMLutas: RC Church recognises the sacraments and apostolic succession of the Orthodox as valid as well as their teachings but they are not in full union with all that Jesus taught and passed on by the Apostles, obviously the authority of the successor of Peter vested in the Bishop of Rome. Orthodoxy officially rejects most us what the Bishop of Rome and the RC Church ‘s praxis and doxis, There is no real division about Mary’s role, they honour her Dormition -falling asleep, and Assumption, and we can quibble about how to exegete Original Sin and its consequences. Chrysostom’s misogyny is alive and well, and may I surprise you by saying in the global push for abortion. That really destroys women’s sacred dignity and vocation for sure.
You seem to be claiming that Orthodoxy never bothered to think about the problems of original sin, and thus Orthodoxy never got around to thinking about Mary in relation to it.
... but ...
it aint true. Orthodoxy DID think about the problem of original sin, and rejected it, as understood by the west. Because Orthodoxy rejected it, the problem of whether there is or isn’t an immaculate conception, simply cannot even arise. This whole article is really a load of nonsense.
Oops… a typo: I am 70, not 79
I have another question, but this time it is on the proper subject:
I still remember being quite puzzled when, in my teens, I had been reading an otherwise excellent book on apologetics, that used a question and answer formula; the answer to one of the questions in the book still makes me feel uncomfortable (I was 16 then, and am now 79…) As far as I can recall, a reader had brought up the question of Mary possibly having had a regular married life and/or other children after the birth of Jesus. I have no problem with the Church teaching on the matter of the perpetual virginity of Mary, but what bothered me was that the reply seemed to imply that it was very wrong to even suggest that Mary could possibly have had a regular married life because it was expressing doubts about her purity and her sinlessness (or something similar). Of course the book had been written in 1942, but I felt that the reply suggested that married life itself, including relations between husband and wife, was impure and sinful and a lower form of living a Christian life. And it made me feel very uncomfortable, and it still does up to a point.
May I be allowed a question to Pavel as well as Mark:
My brother has recently received ordination in the Orthodox church from France. I had been wondering about apostolic succession, and if the Eucharist as consecrated during a mass my brother would celebrate would be valid and/or if I could receive it without problem? Of course the question is a little theoretical, since there is very little chance that I could ever afford to travel to France in order to see my brother again (after some 18 years of his becoming a French citizen), but I would still like to know more since after all he is my brother…
Also thanks to Mark for bringing the subject up, as well as Elisa and Deacon Daniel for providing links, since I did nor really know where to find reliable information (I did not think that I could judge by myself if anything I found on the Internet was reliable). I have copied the links and intend to follow up.
The passage from St Symeon the New Theologian quoted above should probably be used with a degree of caution. It is a translation of a translation—i.e., it is an English translation of a Russian translation of St Symeon’s homily (#37). Perhaps it is a perfectly accurate translation; but I would like to see a direct English translation of the original Greek text by a competent translator. As it stands, the present English translation makes St Symeon sound more Augustinian than he may actually have been. I don’t know the answer, but I don’t trust translations of translations.
If the Pope says that Orthodoxy is part of the Universal Church, no matter how sadly separated, and you disagree with him, aren’t you declaring that you are not in union with the Pope? Is not a central feature of Pope and Patriarch that they define for their Church who is or is not part of the one Universal Church?
The withdrawal of the anathemas in the 1960s and the lack of subsequent renewal in the change of personnel over the past several decades must give pause to quick declarations that this or that position tosses you out of the Church. Be careful, for the person you may be tossing out of the Church may be yourself.
“in very”
A guest of mine from Russia partook of the Blessed Sacrament at the Basilica of the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception here in DC, and I think legitimately, but when I attended an Orthodox Easter service in New York the priest gave me a baleful look which I took to mean: Don’t even think about Holy Communion here.
There are many faithful and good Christians in Russia. May God grant union between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. As we know, both Churches have true sacraments and true Apostolic succession, and the Orthodox have had many martyrs very in recent times.
@bob
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They do believe in The Original Sin. They believe that The Original Sin is what caused man’s downfall, separation from God and caused man to be prone to death and corruption, just as Paul says it in the bible.
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They also believe in the Assumption of Mary who was assumed into heaven “Body and Soul” - Uncorrupted.
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You can argue the details, but if Mary was not prone to corruption and did not sin as other men, raised body and soul into Heaven, then she was spared from Original Sin and ALL its consequences.
On the feast of St. John Chrysostom my pastor (a convert from Lutheranism and Epicopalianism who has studied the Eastern Church) observed that Chrysostom said of women in general something like that they were dangerous as wild beasts. The pastor theorized that Chrysostom’s prejudiced view of women was shaped largely by his experience at the Byzantine emperor’s court, where the women there tended indeed to be ambitious and pushy.
George said “But they do believe in the Immaculate Conception. As they do not believe in Origional Sin (mainly semanits), they mnust believe that Mary was conceived with out origional sin.”
The Orthodox *Do* believe in immaculate conception, they think EVERYONE has one. Mary and everybody. We don’t think (as I said before on this) that original sin is an STD that needs pre-emptive action. It has little to do with the idea that the Theotokos sinned or not. The conception issue isn’t a question as Mr. Shea said, so there isn’t a *need* for an answer. Only Roman Catholics ask and answer.
dixiebehr; Orthodoxy means correct worship, so if that branch of the Church rejects our sacraments, they consider us not having right worship and or orthopraxis, right practice. They may not use our word valid or illicit - that means it is valid but unlawful, such as communion from a Catholic priest who marries and becomes Anglican, but they in effect say so in fact. as to you deacon John I did not have your reference to Looney Tunes liturgical inter-communion in mind. there are specific reasons why we allow the Orthodox and certain High Church Protestants to receive our sacred holy communion but very narrow and specific.
But they do believe in the Immaculate Conception. As they do not believe in Origional Sin (mainly semanits), they mnust believe that Mary was conceived with out origional sin.
LoneThinker, I have no doubt the kind of thing you heard about happens from time to time. Orthodox people can do things the Church forbids. And I’m sure you could go to Episcopal weddings and see Roman Catholics receiving Communion, too. (And vice versa, Protestants of various sorts going to Communion in Roman churches.) They’re not supposed to, the Roman Church prohibits it, but they do it anyway. It doesn’t mean much, ecclesiastically.
\\as I noted Orthodoxy is not yet in agreement
with our sacramental validity\\
“Validity” of sacraments/mysteries outside the Orthodox Church is not an Orthodox concept. Non-Orthodox sacraments are simply that: non-Orthodox sacraments. They become an issue if and only if a non-Orthodox Christian wishes to become Orthodox. THEN the question is, “Is it necessary for a convert to receive Orthodox baptism?” or “Is it necessary for a non-Orthodox clergyman to receive Orthodox ordination?” or the like.
I shall return to this later. Deacon JS; my favorite Pizza people from Thessalonica used the Episcopal minister for their weddings. I was told it was quite common in that State where I lived then, the dislike for Rome trumped their own theology, and as I noted Orthodoxy is not yet in agreement with our sacramental validity, much less others. BTW JP 11 prayed the creed without the filioque clause - first event after he recovered from attempted assassination. Also the 4th c Ambrosian Creed avoids that sticky bit
Rob:
I wrote you a big reply on this, but it seems to have gotten hung up in the “we think this might be spam, so we’re moderating it before posting it” filter.
Hopefully it’ll show up soon.
An interesting article and interesting comments by Seraphim.
This is also a good reflection on Orthodoxy and the Immaculate Conception by Orthodox priest, Fr. Lev Gillet (aka “A Monk of the Eastern Church”). This is part 1 of 4.
http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/the-immaculate-conception-and-the-orthodox-church-1/
Regarding the ancestral sin, I am quite fond of this quote from St. Symeon the New Theologian (+1022):
“Therefore, if anyone, having experienced beforehand such disgrace and insignificance, shall then become proud, is he not senseless and blind? That saying that calls no one sinless except God, even though he has lived only one day on earth, does not refer to those who sin personally, because how can a one-day-old child sin? But in this is expressed that mystery of our Faith, that human nature is sinful from its very conception. God did not create man sinful, but pure and holy. But since the first-created Adam lost this garment of sanctity, not from any other sin but from pride alone, and became corruptible and mortal, all people also who come from the seed of Adam are participants of the ancestral sin from their very conception and birth. He who has been born in this way, even though he has not yet performed any sin, is already sinful through this ancestral sin.
For this reason there has come another birth, or rebirth, which regenerates man through Holy Baptism by the Holy Spirit, again unites him with the Divine nature as it was when he was created by the hands of God, restores all the powers of his soul, renews them and brings them to the conditions in which they were before the transgression of the first-created Adam; in this way it leads him into the Kingdom of God, into which no one unbaptized can enter, and enlightens him with its light and grants him to taste its joys. thus each one who is baptized again becomes such as Adam was before the transgression, and is led into the noetic Paradise and receives the commandment to work it and keep it - to work it by fulfillment of the commandments of Jesus Christ Who has recreated him, and to keep it by the keeping of the grace of the Holy Spirit which was given to him through Holy Baptism, confessing that the power of this grace which dwells in him fulfills together with him the commandments of Christ. In this consists the keeping. And as it is impossible for a house to stand without a foundation, so also it is impossible for the soul which believes in Christ to manifest a God-pleasing life if in it there will not be laid as a foundation the grace of the Holy Spirit. For fasting, and vigils, and sleeping on the floor, and prostrations, and praying, and every other suffering of evil is nothing without Divine grace. And if you hear that anyone after evident Christian works has fallen away from Christ, know that at that time he was without the grace of God. For the Holy Spirit gives life to the soul, as the soul gives life to the body; and the soul becomes strong, firm and constant.”
- Homily 37, The Ancestral Sin and Our Regeneration
LoneThinker, it seems you’ve misunderstood something about Orthodoxy and Anglicanism. There is no sense at all in which the Orthodox Church has “accepted the Anglican/Episcopal church as their home for sacraments such as marriage”. Anglicans and Roman Catholics talk a lot about the “validity” of sacraments. Well, whether or not Anglican sacraments are “valid” (in the Western sense), the Church strictly forbids any Orthodox person from receiving any such things from Anglicans or Roman Catholics or Monophysites or anyone else except the Orthodox Church itself.
Rob:
We’re not “born with a sin” in the sense of already having committed a personal sin; in that sense “Original Sin” is misleading inasmuch as “sin” makes us always think of some bad thing we’ve done.
Perhaps we can get a better spin on it by looking at the meaning of the word “sin”: A “missing of the mark,” as when an archer falls short of the bullseye, and his arrow lands in the dirt two feet shy of the target.
The target for our behavior, of course, is to do good and not evil. To choose to do evil, therefore, is to fall short of the target: To sin.
But the target for our inmost being is to be filled with the divine indwelling life of the Trinity in a fashion, allowing that divine indwelling to nourish our soul, fattening it and strengthening it and thickening it, transforming it from a weak thing into a strong, a cold thing into a hot.
This is necessary because only a healthy, strong, soul, hot-burning with divine charity, can survive in Heaven, in the direct presence of the Beatific Vision, in the shekinah glory cloud, in company with the seraphim (the name means “burning ones”). A soul without this indwelling cannot withstand that presence, is “undone” before it.
So anyone lacking that indwelling, or having a weaker, insufficient, limping form of that indwelling, is falling short of the mark. That too, is a form of “sin.”
Now Adam and Eve had that divine indwelling, and preternatural benefits came from it: They could not be killed, for the presence of God made them able to instantly resist or heal any injury. Had the serpent bitten Adam with deadly venom, that indwelling life might have transformed the venom into something harmless…or might have instantly repaired any damage done by the venom.
(Perhaps Adam could even “fall asleep” in the sense of Mary’s Dormition…but then rise back up again, like Christ? I don’t know if that’s exactly right, but at any rate a person with that divine indwelling either can’t be killed, or at the very least can’t be kept in the grave for long enough to count as death. And it wouldn’t be “DEATH” in the sense of God’s warning, “In the day that you eat of it, you shall die” because one isn’t “dead” in that sense if one’s soul is full of divine life! Indeed, who cares if your body is temporarily inert and you take a quick field-trip to heaven, if you, being full of divine grace, can revive that body any time you want? But this whole paragraph may be Origen-esqe lapsing into innocently incorrect speculation on my part.)
At any rate, Adam and Eve did not “fall short of the target” either in terms of divine indwelling Trinity-life, or in terms of chosen behavior, until the Fall.
At the fall, their behavior fell short. But, as a consequence of mortal sin, the divine indwelling was mortally wounded. Adam could still hear the voice of God, so apparently he didn’t become entirely spiritually blind and deaf. He didn’t have no grace at all (even existence and intelligence and free will are graces from God), but certainly not enough to survive in Heaven. The glory of God in him was marred, diminished; the presence of God was now a fearful thing, he wished to hide.
So as a result of their behavior falling short (personal sin) their divine indwelling Trinity-life also wasn’t there like it was ORIGINALLY supposed to be (thus “original sin”; the falling-short-of-the-mark of being filled with grace).
And ever since, all the rest of us have borne the consequence of the Fall: We too are born without that fullness-of-grace, that sufficient-for-heaven divine indwelling, that was originally intended for us.
There are, however, exceptions: The angel says Mary was kecharitomene, “already-filled-to-fullness with grace.” And whereas Eve, having no original sin, freely chose to fall from grace, Mary, at the originally-intended level of grace-filledness, responded the opposite way: “May it be unto me according to Thy will.” Mary did not Fall. Thus did divine grace remain in her, filling her up, overshadowing her, and from this, came the Incarnation.
So: Did Mary have the same original divine indwelling as pre-fall Eve? Yes. Did Mary lose that by sinning? No. Did Mary have, at the end of her life, the divine indwelling grace which allows her to see God face-to-face and live in Heaven? Of course.
What about us? Do we begin life with the pre-Fall level of divine indwelling? No. So, we’re short-of-the-mark: Original Sin. Are we, from birth, able to live in Heaven? No. Do we need baptism? Yes, to restore that divine indwelling to us, to enlighten our souls with the life of the Trinity.
Does that mean that innocent but unbaptized infants, and the unborn who die through miscarriage, and the aborted unborn, go to hell? Unknown, though we suspect not, on the basis of God’s character: We suspect that through His mercy he grants them grace in another way. But that is hidden from us, just as it is hidden from us how God saves those who have never heard of Jesus, or how exactly Jesus led the captives free and pillaged the souls of the righteous dead from Hades, leading them to Heaven.
That, at least, is how I understand the topic. At any rate it helps me to clarify how a baby could have “original sin” while not having committed any “personal sin.”
As always it is possible I have misunderstood something in an important way which is over my head: I am no professional theologian. But if I were, I would want to be a faithful one, so I submit everything I just said to the review and correction of Christ’s Holy Church.
Logically it seems that Adam made us predisposed or vulnerable to sin by separating humanity from God. Baptism is the binding to God that saves us from damnation.
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Clearly there was an original sin and that in effect damned us to death and to sin ourselves “let sin into the world”.
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Since none of us can resist sin, we are sinners, but the extension to actually being born with a sin vs. just being unable to resist sin is an area that I do not understand.
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Any suggestions for how this is arrived at?
@dixibehr:
Waitaminute, waitaminute.
How could the Catholic position make it impossible for Mary to sin?
Did not being stained by Original Sin make it impossible for Eve to sin? Clearly not.
How could Mary having the increased level of divine indwelling which graced Eve prior to the fall take away Mary’s free will to sin, if it didn’t take away Eve’s?
(Indeed it shocks me that some Baptists could teach the “once saved, always saved” view for a similar reason: If there is no such thing as mortal sin being voluntarily committed by one who is currently in a “relationship with God,” then clearly Adam—whose “relationship with God” was better than any of ours, inasmuch as he lived in an unfallen world and had no prior sin or concupiscence—could not voluntarily sin mortally! So that means Adam’s sin must have not been mortal, and God’s “you shall die” must have been a bluff on God’s part. But if mortal sin does exist, then not only does Adam’s story make sense, but “once saved always saved” is excluded.)
dixibehr: You seem to know nothing about the role of the Bishop of Rome’s role in Councils before the jealous rivalry between political new Rome and the City of Rome of St Peter’s Rock-ship and his successors. We rejoice absolutely in the doctrines and Sacraments we have in common, even if Orthodoxy rejects ours as valid. I was saddened to see US Orthodox accept the Anglican/Episcopal church as their home for sacraments such as marriage and was shocked to read of one orthodox priest, a former Catholic layman, writing drivel about JP11’s understanding of the Church, under the then J Cdl. R in the CDF. At the uppoer level things seem to have improved.
For those interested in learning about Orthodox Christianity, here are some resources from the Society of St. John Chrysostom:
http://orientale-lumen.blogspot.com/
Hope this helps!
Venerable Fulton Sheen said that few people reject the Catholic Faith, but many people reject what they think the Catholic Faith is. I have never seen any Orthodox critique of the Immaculate Conception in harmony with historical Orthodox teaching that truly understood what the Latin teaching on the matter says. St. John Maximovitch and others understood it to mean that Mary was incapable of sinning, obviously not a correct understanding. This does not mean that we accept the Immaculate Conception - as Mr. Shea noted, it is based on a concept of Original Sin alien to our theology, and is consequently simply a Latin doctrine not relevant to the universal Church. It is not rejected by Eastern Christians (whether those in communion with Rome - “Eastern Catholics” - or not); it is simply not relevant. In either case, the sinlessness of the Panagia (“All-Holy One”) is strongly affirmed, and the Protestants have no ally with us.
St. Silouan of the Holy Mountain once wrote that “In church I was listening to a reading from the prophet Isaiah, and at the words, ‘Wash you, make you clean,’ I reflected, ‘Maybe the Mother of God sinned at one time or another, if only in thought.’ And, marvelous to relate, in unison with my prayer a voice sounded in my heart, saying clearly, ‘The Mother of God never sinned even in thought.’ Thus did the Holy Spirit bear witness in my heart to her purity.” (Archimandrite Sophrony, St. Silouan the Athonite p. 352)
The “Ancestral Sin” in the Orthodox conception means the inheritance of death, not guilt. (Older Roman Catholic texts in English tended to say that we inherited Adam’s “guilt”, a misleading translation of the Latin “reatus” at best. What Adam did isn’t our fault.) The Paschal tropar, sung dozens on times on Easter Sunday, is “Christ is risen from the dead - by death He trampled death, and to those in the tombs, He granted life.” The Greek Fathers understood sin to be the consequence of death (without making a distinction between spiritual and temporal death); since it is dogmatic for the East (and, according to Fr. Ryan Erlenbush OP of the New Theological Movement, also in the West) that the Theotokos died in her Dormition, albeit a peaceful and painless death on account of her sinlessness, and a death chosen deliberately by her in order to unite herself willingly to the sufferings of her Son (according to St. Dimitri of Rostov), in the Eastern conception the Theotokos was subject to “original sin” just as we are. We just use the term “original sin” or “ancestral sin” to mean something different than the Latins do; no real contradiction. And when all is said and done, the Eastern terminology cannot be understood in Latin terms as the Protestants attempt when enlisting us as allies against the Latin doctrines.
Finally - although another commenter has already corrected this - our theological development did not “stop” with the Seven Ecumenical Councils, as evidenced by the articulation of hesychastic dogma against the proto-Protestant denial of communion with God taught by Barlaam of Calabria as well as the censures of the semantic excesses of imyaslavie and sophiology in the 20th century. Orthodox theology continues to develop, although there are fewer heresies to combat than in the West and therefore fewer clarifications to be made, and without the unifying principle of Papal primacy (often filled in the past by Caesaropapism) theological clarification will take longer than it does in the West. There is unlikely to be a pan-Orthodox synod until the restoration of communion with Rome occurs.
dixiebehr:
I think we are pretty much on the same page. As I say, both sides confess the sinlessness of Mary, but the East, having no category for original sin, never bothered trying to figure out how she got that way. Obviously we differ on the Immaculate conception, but my point is that, compared to an average Evangelical, what really sticks out is how much we have in common in hailing Mary as a stranger to sin.
Everybody: This is not a forum for refighting 1054 and all that. Catholic comboxers: kindly refrain from putting on your pointy hats and imagining God made you Pope.
Look anyone who rejects the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Mother is not Catholic and Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus or however you say that…
\\Their theological development stopped with the first Eight Councils, so
expect nothing from them in that area. \\
Obviously, you know nothing about the development of hesychasm.
Of course, when you get it right the first time, very little has to develop, and nobody has to be infallible.
Their theological development stopped with the first Eight Councils, so expect nothing from them in that area. There is some intellectual difficulty for all of us to reconcile her special grace with her ability to sin and be free to say yes at the incarnation. Even more so for Jesus who sweated blood in the Garden and there and on the cross said not my will but yours. he freely was obedient as 2 PHIL 6-11 says and we now hear in the revised words of the translation of the Consecration at Eucharist. Anyone who takes the old understanding of Adam and Eve as being literally the first human creatures, endowed with grace and thus “immmaculately” created has to answer how and why they could say No to God and Yes to their own hubris.
You should be aware that while the Orthodox have continually believed that the most holy Theotokos was always a total stranger to sin, the Immaculate Conception as defined by Pius IX is based on an understanding of original sin that the Orthodox reject. Some Orthodox theologians, among them St. John Maximovitch of San Francisco, believe that it puts her in a position where it was impossible for her to have sinned. For what it’s worth, you can find on line an 18th century prayerbook, THE GARDEN OF THE SOUL, by Bp. Richard Challoner, where the feast on 8 December is called merely “Conception of the BVM,” and not “Immaculate Conception.”
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