I see the “NFP zealotry” on blogs a lot, of course, but how many people really encounter it in real life?  I use NFP and I have one close friend who does.  She does it for religious reasons and also because she is of the “organic food, holistic healing, don’t put foreign stuff in your body more than you can help” mindframe.  I have two family members of child-bearing age that I know use or have used the Pill.  I know this because one of them mentioned it, and I saw the pill package in the bathroom of the other.
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I have no idea about anyone else I know because they don’t talk about it, and that is just not something you ask people.  Yes, we as Catholics should promote NFP.  Yes, as in the case of our family members - if we know for sure, because the information was volunteered by that person, that a Catholic is using contraception, we should say something tactfully.  But we should always give people the benefit of the doubt unless we know for sure otherwise, which we almost never do.
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If we are worrying about other people on the internet, we need to get over it.  We won’t meet them in real life; writing a few sentences typed on a computer does not paint a full picture of anyone’s relationship with God and their spouse.  We can’t let the opinions of internet commenters bother us too much. 
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If we encounter people in real life who are actually making judgments based on the number of kids we have or do not have, we need to find new friends or a new parish.  I have been a member of many very average parishes in different states, and this has never happened to me.  If it happens to you, please let me know where you go to church so I can avoid your parish!

Julie:

I think it happens, but that its incidence is exaggerated in the combox world compared to real life.

A lot of people get very bold and courageous, when you put them behind a keyboard.

There’s also presumption that if you have a large family, you must be an NFP Zealot. 

It could be…you’re just really bad at charts.  :)

p.s. Captcha was planning 36 ...heh.

Every married couple needs to ask themselves (and God) whether they are truly trusting God and whether they are using NFP selfishly.  It’s not an easy thing to discern.  It’s also not something for anyone else to discern, except maybe a spiritual director.

The zealots do harm also to couples that are having infertility problems. I have a friend that is hurting because all around her people are having babies and she hasn’t been able to conceive. They are using NFP to help them conceive but so far God hasn’t blessed them. Some people are meant to have huge families and some people aren’t. Zealots need to be reminded of Jesus, the woman, and casting the first stone.

Thank you, Mr. Shea, for writing this.  I am very grateful.  I came across the type of zealotry of which you speak online:  what I read made me nervous to the point of being afraid (given that I am a revert who had been away from the Church far too long.  I am overjoyed and very grateful to be back!), it saddened me, annoyed me, and repulsed me.  One such discussion had one fellow saying that anyone who didn’t have ten kids or more was a sissy.  Very few things anger me these days, but that came pretty darned close.

Agreed, Dave.  NFP can and does change hearts and minds bit by bit in conjunction with an active prayer life, though, especially if couples are coming out of contracepting.  And they should trust God on that, too.

And besides:  Pope Benedict’s family is a small one by Providentialist standards—only him, Maria, and Georg.  Any of the armchair-bishop brigade care to tell him, “Psst!  I think your mom and dad had a contraceptive mentality!”

Hi friends: Tough subject. I’d like to politely point out that the average person Catholic or otherwise would need a PhD. in theology to follow the above reader clip and comments by Mr. Shea. That’s not going to help us win converts, or proclaim the good news about NFP.

“...using NFP selfishly…”  I no longer believe that NFP can be used selfishly.  That’s something that’s often tossed around in comboxes but in reality, I don’t know anyone who’d go through the bother and annoyance and worry and second-guessing that is all part of NFP for anything other than Good and True reasons. Taking a pill = selfish. Reschedule and modify your entire sexual married life to work with NFP = Not selfish. 

It pissed me off because, in the process of reverting, I actually bought in to some of these selfish, have-more-kids remarks.  It made it especially hard because finances were not a problem; if I can afford 10 kids, isn’t that a sign that God wants me to have 10 kids?  Nope.  But I beat myself up for years, panicked that I’d be judged on my last day that I was selfish and not open to life enough.  Never mind my reasons; contemporary life offers plenty that are far more emotional, mental and psychological which are all just as important as financial and physical.  It’s all part of being a fully integrated human; it all matters. 

We’re having our first baby after completely failing the practice of NFP; while we couldn’t be happier, we’re promising ourselves to do better next time. Hoping for at least a two year reprieve. Again, totally happy if two years should become one year. (Prayers for K.)

I think a good naturalistic perspective on the issue is that God ordered the female sexuality in such a way that [# infertile days > # fertile days].

Every married couple needs to ask themselves (and God) whether they are truly trusting God and whether they are using NFP selfishly.

No.  Every married couple using NFP needs to be commended for obedience to Holy Church, to relax, and to be free of the scruples that those who wish to be more rigorous than the Church would oppress them with.  Why do we tie up heavy burdens God does not require and lay them on the backs of the very people who are—obviously—trying the hardest to think and act with the mind of the Church? If you are practicing NFP, it’s good enough.  Don’t let anybody lay any judgment on you beyond that.

This is such a tricky topic and as such, should be discussed with a good spiritual director.

1.  It is way too easy to judge people as “good” or “bad” Catholics based on family size.  I used to see this in some Catholic publications that made me feel as if I wasn’t always pregnant, I was wrong.  Took me a while to realize that.  I also have a really good friend, who has 3 children - widely spaced - because of fertility problems and I know the pain people’s judgment caused her.

2.  On the other hand, I have seen and heard of people that DO use NFP with “contraceptive mindset” - where it seems to be all about control and very little about prayer, discernment,and trusting God.

3.  If I am not mistaken - I need to go do a google search for the article - Casti Connubi or the Address to the Midwives (can’t remember which) did not say for rhythm was to be used by all times and in all circumstances, but with the prudent counsel of theri priest/director.

In other words - it is too easy to fool ourselves about our motives and such.  I know that from my own personal struggles.  It always helps to have a person to help you evaluate things from an outside perspective.  Sometimes you are just so close you don’t see everything.

Of course, no one should ever judge another based on family size.

I must take middle ground between Dave and Mr. Shea.  While Dave is, as Mr. Shea points out, overstating with his “Every married couple . . .” comment, Mr. Shea is also overstating with “every married couple using NFP needs to be commended for obedience to Holy Church.”  I’m personnally aware of some married couples who practice NFP as a form of birth control, with no intention of getting pregnant and with no openness to procreation.  They believe they’re in line with the Church by not using artificial birth control, but this still becomes a contraceptive mentality that is not obedient to Holy Church.  I believe this is what Dave meant that couples must discern: are we using this in obedience to the Church to plan our family, or just as a non-artificial birth control to avoid a family?

Mark Shea writes:

“If you are practicing NFP, it’s good enough.  Don’t let anybody lay any judgment on you beyond that.”

No, Mark—it’s not “good enough” merely to “practice NFP.” You demonstrate the same deficient reasoning here as you do when you call a gay couple “chaste” simply because they are not sexually acting out. Please go read the CCC definition of chastity—you focus too intently on the “doing” rather than the “being” in that case and in this one.

The truth is that the Church permits the use of NFP in marriage for “serious/grave” reasons. The couple is obliged, before God, to ensure they are not using NFP “selfishly” (contraceptively).

While this is most definitely *beyond* “external” judgement or critique by others (it’s between the couple and God), it must be pointed out that the Church permits NFP for serious/grave reasons.

God bless you,

Deacon JR

I am maybe a little too happy to point out to people that, contrary to popular belief, I am not among the most radical of arch-conservatives, and that there are things which even by my standards seem nuts.  A number of heresies fall in that category.
The more I learn about the Church, the more deeply I understand and appreciate that She is for real people, not imaginary perfect ones.

Thank you, Deacon Russell.

Mark Shea, you are missing that CRUCIAL point from Humanae Vitae. There is a HUGE difference between using NFP for “serious/grave” reasons and using NFP so that you only have 2 kids because you want to be able to afford nice vacations every year.

NFP is just a method. It can be used correctly or incorrectly depending on the intention behind it. That is what the Church teaches. Read Humanae Vitae.

I have run into it in real life: women who move in home schooling circles who told me that they felt judged and attacked because they aren’t having enough children fast enough. I sat in on an adult Sunday School class in which the speaker essentially said that your marriage was invalid unless you were able to have children while friends of mine, who had been struggling with infertility for years, were listening.  If you hang out in uber-Catholicland, you’ll encounter it.

If you hang out in an average Catholic parish or family, you probably won’t.

I think we are called to be “open” to life always, but having a large family is something you are called to do. You can never say you are done, but that each and every cycle is another chance to discern (husband, wife, and God), it is constant prayer and constant communication.

I have felt the pains of judgment from older moms with more children as the look at my family with 3 little ones. I do not wish to hurry up another pregnancy, but to love and enjoy the state we are in right now. NFP allows us to take the time we need, physically and emotionally, while being open if God has another plan for our family.

And so the Uber Pure appear, to tie up heavy burdens on the backs of people who are already—quite obviously OR THEY WOULDN’T BOTHER WITH NFP AT ALL—trying to live according to the teaching of Holy Church.  I have a theory that the Uber Pure do this sort of stuff because it’s easier to beat up fellow Catholics troubled by a tender conscience than it is to challenge those who really do hold the Church’s teaching in open and naked contempt.  All the benefits of feeling like Courageous Defender of the Faith with none of the associated risks. Sheesh!

If you are practicing NFP, it’s good enough.  Don’t led the Combox Star Chamber of the Uber Pure sit in judgment of you.  There are other things to focus on than pleasing some total stranger who has decided you’re not good enough.

Deacon Russel and Mary,
The Church does say “serious or grace”, but that is broad. Having a child is a BIG deal- more than you are giving it credit. Having a child effects everything in your life, and the constant reminding if we have a good enough reason- well, it is not helpful.

NFP couples, especially once they have children- reason enough, I say. They have been open, they did their duty, and as long as they continue to be open- why would anyone..and I don’t believe even the Church would tell them they HAVE to conceive again.

You are using “serious reasons” as a guilt trip.
What if we did want to take our family on a nice vacation, but had to abstain from pregnancy in order to do it. Is that selfish? I don’t think so, I think it is practical and it is healthy for families to get away and have a good time.
Is it selfish to want to send our kids to Catholic schools and universities, so we choose to have fewer.

Stop being the reminder of “serious reasons”- if you have a big family, then good for you- but not everyone is called to it.

Bless you Mark for writing this.  Having a child is a “serious” thing, a good thing but a serious thing.  Following NFP faithfully means you think about it every day and practice discipline (and you are faithful to the Church’s teaching).  I don’t see that as a frivolous mentality. It is time to stop with the term, “contraceptive mentality” for those using NFP. Stop judging. Parents are up to their eyeballs trying to do the right thing for their families, show some compassion.  Good grief, now people have to run off for spiritual direction on all this?  Where does this all end?

And yet, there are real people, Catholics and not, who practice what they preach, accepting hardships-and graces-from God, open to large families. Do not discount this fact, but go to where the traditional Latin Mass is celebrated and see the families.  I know and have seen them.  I hope my family grows, too. May Mary and the Holy Family guide us all!

Can we talk about those “serious/grave reasons” for a moment, please? Obviously financial difficulty is one of them. But so is health- whether it be physical, spiritual, emotional or mental health, health problems are a reason to use NFP. You don’t know someone’s heart, you don’t know what sort of stress children brings into their life, and so you cannot judge based on what you see. You don’t know what sort of marital strife the prospect of another child could bring- spacing out or limiting births could be needed in order to strengthen the couple’s relationship, and I would say that relationship’s status and health is a grave reason. Just because someone can afford another child does NOT mean it is prudent to have one. Humanae Vitae calls for PRUDENT and RESPONSIBLE parenthood, and it is not our place to judge a couple’s motives.

I know a good Catholic family that only has one child. They are set financially, and so a lot of people look at them and think, “If they are such great Catholics, why haven’t they had more children? They could afford it!”
Do you know how many miscarriages they have had, that occured in the process of trying to have more? Can you imagine the guilt that is felt from that alone? - Never mind the guilt from your “if they were Good Catholics they would have 9 kids,” spiel.
You don’t know someone’s story and it’s really rude to presume that someone is abusing NFP in order to be selfish. That’s the sin of lack of charity.

Additionally, I grew up with my father telling me that if I didn’t have more than three children, I’m not contributing to the Church’s growth, essentially telling me if I don’t have at least four kids, having kids is pointless because we are called to “expand the church”- to “go forth and multiply.” “Multiply” means constantly increase, don’t you know? And so I have lived in fear and stress as a result of this thought.
What if I have serious reproductive issues? What if I have all C-sections due to my dangerously tiny hips, and am thus limited to the number of children it would be safe to have? What if I’m totally infertile?
And so my own father has been an NFP zealot, heaping guilt on me and my future marriage, since I was about 10.

For some people, especially couples trying to find their way out of contraception, switching to NFP is a struggle enough without Elitist NFP Zealots making them feel like they are STILL crap, that they don’t truly love each other because they are still avoiding birth, etc. etc.

I acknowledge that NFP can be, and probably is, abused. However, I think we need to meet people where they are and NOT JUDGE, because you don’t know a person’s motives and you don’t know their story.
NFP is not an easy commitment to make for some people, and the fact they are that committed to it because they desire to “be in line with the Church” shows their intentions are right- being obedient- even if they don’t know the whole story. They are trying.
Instead of yelling at these people, gently nudge them in the right direction and share your struggles as well, so they don’t feel like they are being persecuted.
Most of all, DON’T JUDGE.

I disagree that Catholics should promote NFP. Rather, we should promote the mindset that the primary function of sex is procreative; once that is done, the concept of NFP falls “naturally” (you like that play on words?) into place.

No we cannot read hearts or know a situation at home, eg, major health issues or past medical histories.  But, by observation, how many of the world, even the US, really cannot afford-monetarily or physically-to havea more than a few childre, if God grants them these blessings?  Most eg, Catholics, by polling, show they do not meet their Sunday obligation, approve SSA’s/unions, do not follow many of the Church’s other teachings, and even believe Christ sinned (NJ survey other week by the bishop)!  Are we to suppose theses same couples are truly open to life or that daily, needless moneatary excesses are getting in the way of life?

My wife and I have been practicing NFP in reverse for the past 12 years in hopes of having more children. Hasn’t happened, and now we’re thinking about adoption before our son is too old to enjoy being a brother.

Sometimes, no matter what you do, God has other plans for your life.

“I’m personnally aware of some married couples who practice NFP as a form of birth control, with no intention of getting pregnant and with no openness to procreation.”

Find me something within official church teaching that states that being open to life equals an “intention of getting pregnant” or that using NFP and NFP alone with no artificial birth control is anything OTHER THAN “openness to procreation”.

Using NFP with the wrong mindset can be a sin, yes. However, it is NOT the sin of not being open to life. It can be a sin of selfishness, incorrect discernment, and the like. But not having sex is not “closed off to procreation”, and having sex with no artificial birth control is the VERY definition of being “open to life”. As a practicing Catholic, one not only has a responsibility to spread the good news, but also one to spread the correct news, with charity.

I agree. No woman wants to be a baby machine. And men need to be more sensitive to the health ( physical, mental, and spiritual) of their wives. I’ve always thought that 6 to 8 was at the higher end of the ideal and perhaps 3 would be best for most couples - all things considered.

Mark,
With all due respect, I believe your statement of “If you are practicing NFP, it’s good enough.  Don’t led the Combox Star Chamber of the Uber Pure sit in judgment of you.” is a false dichotomy.

Yes, it’s true that using NFP to avoid pregnancy is something between the couple (and a spiritual director, if necessary) and definitely not for the “Star Chamber of the Uber Pure” but on the other hand, using NFP to avoid pregnancy IS something that needs to be discerned.

From Humanae Vitae:

“With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.”

This very statement implies that it is possible for responsible parenthood NOT to be exercised on either side…either by imprudently having the maximum number of children, or by restricting children for insufficiently serious reasons.  So no, just using NFP is not good enough.  It’s not just a matter of the morality of the means, but also of the end.

“Are we to suppose theses same couples are truly open to life or that daily, needless moneatary excesses are getting in the way of life?”

Those would be the Catholics who aren’t practicing NFP selfishly because they are using contraceptives. NFP zealots aren’t going to get very far with them. As Marc said, they’re not soft targets like the conscientious practicers of NFP.

@Dave — “This very statement implies that it is possible for responsible parenthood NOT to be exercised on either side…either by imprudently having the maximum number of children, or by restricting children for insufficiently serious reasons.  So no, just using NFP is not good enough.  It’s not just a matter of the morality of the means, but also of the end.”

I think his point is that if a couple is using NFP, it is charitable to assume that they are conscientious Catholics and have already discerned everything you mention above. We, as Catholics, do not look at the fact that we don’t run around constantly assuming people are lying and therefore constantly reminding them NOT to lie, and informing them why it’s wrong (because they couldn’t possibly already know), as some sort of scandalous sin in support of lying. Make sense?

I don’t know why I’m almost afraid to mention this, but here goes…..it is possible to have chastity within marriage.  If a family truly just can’t take having any more children it would not be a sin to be chaste just as they were supposed to be chaste before marriage.  I feel like we’ve been made to believe that this is not possible, but we are not animals, we can discipline ourselves into purity, though it does help to be far removed from popular media.  Anyway, I’ve been using NFP to prevent pregnancy and we are blessed to be expecting this January!  Ha, God loves me very much and He doesn’t let me get away with anything.  NFP is nonsense, so who cares.  Have sex within marriage, it’s not a sin, use contraception and it’s a mortal sin.  I can happily vouche for NFP NOT being contraception so I see no harm in it and all it is is periods of chastity.  I can’t see how anyone can call chastity a sin.

Dave:

You’d have a real point if comboxes were flooded with NFPer’s who were clamoring for some way to combine NFP with their selfish demands for two SUV’s and a boat.  But the reality on the ground is that people who use NFP are TRYING TO OBEY THE CHURCH OR THEY WOULDN’T BOTHER WITH NFP.  The *real* problem in comboxes is not Bad Catholics who don’t use NFP in the right spirit.  It’s self-appointed inquisitors running around browbeating people with a tender conscience because they are on a power trip and think somebody appointed them judge, jury, and executioner of the faith of brother and sister Catholics.  The common sense, charitable rule of thumb—invisible only to the League of Uber Pure Catholics, is that if somebody is using NFP at all, that is prima facie evidence that they are trying to be obedient to Holy Church and that any assumption to the contrary is a comment on the pharisaic domineering judgmentalism of the one making the assumption, not a comment on the person using NFP.

Mark,
OK, if we are talking about comboxes, I completely agree with you.  In fact, there’s not much to be said in comboxes except to state the Church teaching, which has been done.  It’s up to each couple to apply the teaching in their lives, and yes, if they are already using NFP, one must presume their good intentions.  All I was trying to point out is that there is Church guidance on responsible parenthood in general (the ends), rather than just NFP vs. contraception (the means).

Molly,
I agree with you in general, but while everybody certainly knows the Church teaching on lying (but perhaps not the particulars), it is possible, though unlikely percentage-wise, that a couple could be using NFP without knowing the particulars about discerning responsible parenthood.

Maybe it’s the area of the country in which I live (St. Louis, MO area), but, I only see “NFP zealots” on the internet. In real life, in my parish, I was asked with contempt “Are you crazy??” when another mom AT (CATHOLIC) SCHOOL PICK-UP found out I was pregnant with my 5th child in 9 years.  I use NFP. He was an “oops”. I’m using NFP again, for financial and mental/emotional health reasons. I don’t know how many times my husband and I are asked “are you done now?”  which, honestly, implies that one of us should be getting “fixed” (so many fellow parishioners brag about their own sterlizations, and encourage us to do the same. There are only a handful of families in my 4000+ family parish who have more than 4 kids.  And we get talked about, and not about how generous we are.  Apparently, we all want to be the Duggers and get our own t.v. show).

Anyway, I don’t think NFP is used enough among Catholics for there to be much abuse, maybe an isolated case, here or there. Contraception and sterilization are much more rampant.  But, to say everyone using it must be unselfish and open to life isn’t true. I belong to some Attachment Parenting websites, which tend to be “crunchy”, and there are women who are atheists and pagans who use NFP because it’s natural, but would have an abortion if they got pregnant unintentially.

As a Mom who set out to have a few, but ended up with many well-spaced children,(ages three to 25) I have a hard time with some of these NFP discussions.  The hard line tone can get pretty ugly, from both ends of the spectrum.  St. Paul wrote that he was working out his salvation with fear and trembling.  I don’t think God wants us to live our days trembling with fear, but I do think that prayer on the knees every day, submits our will to God, and leaves us with a sense that God is our solution to *everything* we can’t control in this life; be they health, job, fertility etc…Prayer is the great conversation where these intimate subjects get broached.  For me, it has always been “one day at a time”.  There is certainly not a one-size-fits-all approach to fertility, but there is when it comes to our need for humble discernment in daily prayer!  After navigating two-and-a-half decades of mostly breastfeeding infertility, and short periods of fertility, in between each child, when I look back on EVERYTHING that went into that whole kettle of fish—I’m simply shocked! I would have keeled over if God had shown me the whole mountain from the get go. The fact is, that God was with us on some rather daring moves.  My children are my greatest triumphs in this huge struggle. Is there EVER a *perfect* time to have a child?  Is it *ever* a good idea on paper, when your financial adviser is discussing IRAs, student loans and college funds?  Honestly?  Sometimes I feel pressure from the fastidious, who are wagging a finger at everybody to *be responsible*.  This can be even more painful to hear, because we are talking about children that are already living, with beautiful souls, that we would give our lives for—the precious child we conceived while in college—that amazing little genius we conceived when our spouse’s job situation was tenuous—that lovely little spit fire we conceived when we didn’t own a house…The conversation can become simply heartless, and doesn’t bring anyone closer to the “Divine Physician”.

It’s so exhausting to hear Catholics talk about how overused NFP is (?!), or warn against using it with a “contraceptive mentality”. Open to life means exactly that. It’s just a fruitless exercise in telling other Catholics that even when they’re doing it right (by not contracepting), they’re doing it wrong.

My wife and I use NFP.

These Jansenist-minded people under discussion here, they must exist. God knows one can’t click a link on many Catholic blogs without hearing about these juggernauts of oppression and bow-beating. I haven’t met one yet though. Perhaps I simply don’t live in an area overflowing with these inescapable meddlers like the commenter details. With all gigs of webspace that seems to be devoted to refuting them, they must be a forbidable legion indeed.

Or perhaps… they aren’t really THAT common?

“The simple fact is that the Church asks of the faithful that they be open to life by not practicing artificial contraception.  Period.”

Mark, you are wrong, as you have left out an important piece of the puzzle, and that is that—as the CHURCH herself says—you need to have serious reasons to use Natural Family Planning. As the CHURCH herself says, just using NFP instead of artificial contraception is not automatically a moral choice. People are not “zealots” for emphasizing that point rather than letting their brothers and sisters walk around believing that NFP can simply replace their pills or IUD while they live selfish lives. The Church calls us to generosity and responsibility, in addition to calling us to shun artificial birth control. It’s not up to use to judge other people’s reasons for using NFP, but it is up to us as Christians to share the ENTIRETY of the Church’s teaching on the sexuality and parenthood.

I have never once in real life met an “NFP zealot” who sounds like what is described in this post. I have, however, met practicing Catholics who judge other Catholics for having “too many” children or children “too close together.” They laugh at them and act like they are either too stupid or too out of control to practice NFP. This post of yours is very imbalanced in that it only addresses one side of this issue. It’s also written in a characteristic snide tone that doesn’t help to build up the Church but rather aids in tearing it down.

By the way, Mark, your tone in your combox comments is very disheartening and divisive.

How fortunate we are that Pope Paul VI had the courage to promulgate Humanae Vitae in the face of dissidents trying to overrule the Church defense of marriage and the family.

“It makes me quite angry to read stuff like this”

- It makes me angry to read Robert Sungenis’ claptrap. Guess what? I don’t read it anymore. Perhaps the person who emailed Mark should take that to heart. You will find people who zealously twist items of Catholic teaching on almost every issue if you look for them. Just avoid them.

it’s also why I don’t hang out at the NCR either.

The question is: what if there were less methods of relaxation, more hardships in daily life, less methods of contraception (versus eg, biblical times), and no lapse in catechesis over the past 50-60 years-would we all be having this discussion?  We could always read Pius XII talk to large Italian families, who had much less conveniences and down-time than the modern man.  As for me, I am just a young family man sacrificing for the Church and his family-what Christ asks of us all.  What may sound uncharitable, appears to still be the Truth.

Mary:

You would have a real point if the people who use NFP were the ones chewing you out for having “too many kids”.  But they aren’t.  They are people of tender conscience who are USING NFP BECAUSE THEY ARE TRYING TO BE FAITHFUL TO THE CHURCH.  And for their troubles, they get hectored by Uber Pure Catholics who don’t take it for granted that they are USING NFP BECAUSE THEY ARE TRYING TO BE FAITHFUL TO THE CHURCH but instead feel the need to suggest that they are using NFP in bad faith.  My reader’s experience of Uber Catholics is a real one.  I’ve seen it myself in comboxes.  I’ve never, however, met anybody who uses NFP who then goes around attacking others for having “too many children”.  What I have seen is the Uber Pure Catholic for whom obedience to Holy Church is not enough and who have to ride people of tender conscience with accusations that they are using NFP with a “contraceptive mentality”.  No.  If they had a contraceptive mentality, THEY WOULD USE CONTRACEPTIVES.  The fact that somebody is using NFP at all is prima facie evidence that they are faithful to the Church’s teaching.  The fact that anybody would assume they are not is a commentary on the person making the assumption, not on the faithful couple using NFP.

Mark -

Actually, Mark, I have met NFP-using Catholics doing that kind of judging. Just because you haven’t doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

As far as it being impossible for people to use NFP inappropriately, some people are legalistic and do things in order to be faithful to the Church but still miss the mark. They are following the rules for the sake of the rules, but do not have a converted heart. Maybe they don’t even realize the full extent of the Church’s teaching, because Catholic bloggers who they look up to tend to leave out a huge important portion of it. I know people who were never taught that you need a reason to use NFP beyond just that you don’t feel like having [more] kids. Those people thought they were being faithful to the Church, but were perhaps not being faithful to God as they never consulted him as to his plan for their childbearing. We live in a culture that makes it very challenging to be faithful to the SPIRIT of the law regarding contraception, even while being faithful to the letter of the law.

You and some other commenters here are making the mistake that we Catholics have to put up with from secularists all the time - which is that you are conflating judging a PERSON with judging an action or a concept. It’s not “judgmental” to think that there are theoretical people out there using NFP selfishly. It’s not “judgmental” to share the entirety of Church teaching—which is that you need a serious reason to use NFP. It’s only wrong when you start trying to read the hearts of individual people.

Lastly, you seriously need to take a look at your tone in your comments. I’m not sure why you expect people to listen to you as a voice of Catholicism and as an example of some kind of non-judgmentalness when you sound so strident and just downright mean. Please do not respond to this comment with the same tone. All of your readers deserve to be “spoken” to with respect.

I am a faithful Catholic, a homeschooler, happily married, and I haven’t used birth control since 1990.  My husband and I have no living biological children, one in Heaven, and two special needs adopted children.  I live in a happy world where lots of my fellow moms have many children.  It’s a happy world, and I am happy for them (just a little jealous; I’m working on that).  I imagine in my mind, however, that I am being silently criticized for not having 8 children.  I did attend a Catholic conference once in which a speaker blamed the world’s ills on people who had only 2 or fewer children.  I’d like more children, but it’s complicated; we are older converts, our kids have special needs, we have health problems, it’s just not feasible for us to adopt more children in our late 50’s.  I do feel defensive about only having two children.  As far as NFP zealots go, I just have to say, there is pride everywhere, even among faithful homeschooling Catholic families.

Just because a couple uses NFP the Church should leave them alone and not correct them? My third child (and fourth) is here because I happened to hear JPII on TV. Casually folding laundry one day while my kids were in school, thinking I am such a great Catholic, the pope told me from the television that I was offending God and I did not know my faith. He said I needed a grave reason to prevent pregnancy using NFP. Im not having another baby because my day would be harder? (I could have said I’d be poorer too but I had everything I’d need in the basement) Didn’t sound grave. Was the pope heaping a burden on my back? Yes and no. My life would definitely have been easier without those two kids. Once I heard him speak the Truth to me I knew it was the Truth. The burden of ignoring it would have been unbearable. It’s a little strange that you are so uber annoyed at the “pure” as you call them. They are not judging you.

For what it’s worth, Mark, I was an NFP user with a contraceptive mindset for awhile- I wanted the perfect financial situation before children (no debt, decent car, decent house, etc.). It is entirely possible, especially if you stop to consider OTHER reasons a woman may not want to use artificial birth control. NFP is not exclusive to the Catholic Church nor is it always used with “obedience to the Catholic Church” in mind, because some people do think of it as “Catholic birth control.”

I’m curious, Mr. Shea: who is it that makes up the “arm-chair theologian brigade”? Isn’t that…. hmm… you? How ‘bout you let the Church speak for itself when it says “grave reason” and let people make up their own minds properly informed by prayer and conscience? The only people fitting the bill of “Uber Pure” - a term you seem to be using to refer to Holier Than Thou sorts of Catholics - are those who judge other Catholics who are trying to live good and holy lives in accordance with Church teaching by employing the use of NFP PROPERLY and encouraging others to do the same. I believe the tone you are taking places you firmly into that category. That said, your lack of charity in this post and the subesquent comments thread should certainly be cause for some self-examination.

Mary:

To quote Flannery O’Connor, “When people are deaf, you shout”.  The reality is this: Anybody using NFP is doing so because they are trying to be obedient to the Church.  Such an attitude deserves encouragement, not scolding from self-appointed inquisitors who presume it is their place to suggest that that they are still not pure enough.  My piece was written to defend such people.  It is entirely off topic to somehow drag in a claim that I’m suggesting it’s okay to criticize people for having “too many children”.  I believe and say nothing of the sort.  I simply point out that when people are showing themselves willing to obey the Church, our first impulse should be to commend them for it, not to squint and suggest that they are doing it out of some impure motive.  If they had a contraceptive mentality, they would use contraception.  Beating up people with a tender conscience is, I think, low and cowardly.

Anna:

And that’s fine for you to weigh and decide in your own conscience.  My quarrel is with comboxers who decide to weigh and decide such things for other people.

““If you are practicing NFP, it’s good enough.  Don’t let anybody lay any judgment on you beyond that.”

Since when is using NFP equivalent to being Faithful to the Church?  Where does the Church say you HAVE to use NFP as a couple to be considered faithful?

Like the good Deacon JR pointed out, “The truth is that the Church permits the use of NFP in marriage for “serious/grave” reasons. The couple is obliged, before God, to ensure they are not using NFP “selfishly” (contraceptively).

By the way, fraternal correction is not judgement.  Educating is not judgement.  The greatest doctors of the Church (Aquinas and Augustine, come to mind) wrote about this extensively.  Calling someone out is not being a zealot, if done with charity and patience.  This mentality that we should not help each other along the path to sainthood (& if you do you are judgmental) is very protestant in nature and frankly, has no place in the Catholic Church.  It defies our reason for being Catholic! 

So, the Church has spoken on NFP, why do men fell like they need to continue harping on this and creating division?  Oh yeah, pride.

Mark - I’m sorry that you feel like your rude tone is defensible. I understand the impulse to “shout” at “deaf” people but I don’t think that’s what we are called to do as Christians. Rather, we are to speak the truth in love and let the Holy Spirit do the heavy lifting. Your tone is not justifiable and I’m surprised the National Catholic Register supports it.

I just simply disagree with you when you say that it’s a statement of fact that anyone using NFP is trying to do what the Church teaches, as some people use NFP because it’s “green” or economical or because a spouse is forcing them to. But even still, as I pointed out above, some people are mistaken about what the Church teaches, so even though they are trying to be faithful, they are failing to do so because they have not been taught the whole truth. You bear some responsibility in that, since you seem to think it a good thing to withhold the full truth.

I never accused you of saying it’s okay to criticize people for having too many kids. I accused you of being wrong when you say that using NFP is good enough in itself. You ARE wrong. The papal writings on this topic make it very clear that there are stipulations to moral NFP use. If simply using NFP were good enough, they wouldn’t have done that. It’s very easy for me to imagine people using NFP for frivolous reasons BECAUSE I WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE, condemned by my own conscience and reading Church teaching, not by any “armchair theologian” or Catholic blogger. When you don’t want another child, that feeling can itself be compelling enough to enable periodic abstinence, without you having a truly serious reason for that feeling. It can be compelling enough for you to pat yourself on the back for following the letter of the law while knowingly ignoring the spirit of it. You are being incredibly naive to think that this never happens.

Speaking of cowardly and low - I think shouting at and demeaning people who are ALSO just trying to be faithful to Church teaching and help others to do the same qualifies.

Since crunchy/green/organic/Monsanto hating, whatever you want to call them nonCatholics clearly use NFP *AS CONTRACEPTION*, why is it so hard to believe that a Catholic could be using it with selfish motives?  Especially given all the “cafeteria” Catholics. Abstaining a few days a month is not terribly difficult for ever couple. I used to love it.

I just want to say “Hi” to Deacon Jim!  I thought that was “you”. I belong to ICD.  You, and our new school principal (expecting his 5th child) has given me hope that the atmosphere at our parish may change.

Here’s a really well written, factual, non-judgmental, and balanced look on NFP, for those interested:
http://www.catholicsistas.com/2012/05/11/why-you-dont-have-to-use-nfp/

On a side-note: “When people are deaf, you shout.” Do they then hear you or are they still deaf? That’s like saying “If you can’t have meat on Good Friday make a balogna sandwich.”

Mark, you have jumped the shark…again. By making the blanket statements like this: The same principle applies here.

“The simple fact is that the Church asks of the faithful that they be open to life by not practicing artificial contraception.  Period.  If you are looking for a place to stand, stand on that.  All the guilt-mongering spiritual comparisons inflicted on those with small families by the Elite is just the sin of judgmentalism.”

The ELITE? REALLY? Some of us older women with big families were the pioneers that brought NFP to the forefront. WE are the ones who were chided and laughed at often by those who failed to embrace Catholic Teaching, even and especially clergy. We don’t need your lack of Charity doing the same thing.

I used to hang out with some Thomas Aquinas College homeschoolers, that I met at daily mass.  They used to act a little snide about my blond highlights, my mascara, and my somewhat apologetic jeans (skirts!)they even gave me some guff about giving birth with an epidural.  We sort of parted ways when I decided to put my child in Catholic school. (They were afraid of the worldliness my child would introduce to their children.) The thing is, is that they were ALL on board with NFP for when it was needed.  So I just can’t figure out WHO these “uber Catholics” really are, as I’ve never met an NFP basher ever, but have indeed met a few holier-than-thou types.  I read the original letter, that prompted the post, and I’m simply mystified.

When I have to give an account of my choices in life, I think I’d rather be guilty of being a little over the top on NFP, than being over the top on contraception, abortion, or (take your pick of sexual sins).

I think some commentors are missing the point that I think Mark was trying to make, which was that some people who are trying to educate their fellow Catholics about NFP are actually browbeating them (hence his use of the word zealot).  Maybe it doesn’t happen to you in real life, maybe it does, maybe you haven’t seen it on the internet, maybe you have.  I know I have, at a time when I was seeking to discernment. We cannot see into someone’s heart to know why they are using NFP.  It is none of our business, really.  Yes, I understand that sometimes we need to help others learn more about their Catholic faith, but condemning them for using NFP for what we determine to be ‘selfish’ reasons isn’t going to make them want to explore further.

We have used NFP for all 18 years we have been married.  We have 2 children.  We cannot ASSUME that someone is using NFP for the wrong reasons without knowing their story unless they tell us otherwise. My serious, prayerful, reasons might not be yours. What I feel is being a responsible wife and mother might not be yours.  God knows what is right for my husband and myself more than I do. We do not feel called to a large family, and there are reasons I would not be able to have a large family.

There is a saying, “Assume positive intent.”  Let’s support our sisters and brothers without accusing, and assume they are using it in the proper way. It is not right to be unkind about someone’s reasons for using NFP anymore than it is right to be unkind about someone having what WE may think is too many children.

Mark, I apologize if I have overstepped your point. Thank you for voicing it.

Moe:

I don’t understand your logic. You seem to be arguing that the fact that contracepting Catholics gave you a hard time somehow legitimates Uber Catholics giving a hard time to people who are practicing NFP.

The issue I am responding to here is honest, faithful Catholics who obey the Church, yet who get attacked as being vehemently suspect of a “contraceptive mentality” by Catholics who have voted themselves competent to judge the hearts and minds of total strangers on the internet.  Why drag in this complete irrelevancy?  Catholics who practice NFP are doing as the Church asks.  The inquisitorial need to assume bad faith and make things harder than the Church asks is absurd.  There is much more danger of inquisitorial judgmentalism than there is that people are using NFP in some sinister spirit of selfishness.

Lynn:  You get me perfectly.  Thanks!

Look, we live in a contraceptive culture. That’s a fact. Everywhere you turn the Pill is being pushed and promoted, and it’s hard for a family with more than two children to go anywhere without receiving a comment about when they should stop having children. People are influenced by this to some degree as they grow up. Catholics who use NFP (as not everyone who uses NFP is Catholic) definitely are most likely trying to live the Catholic faith and be faithful Catholics; there’s NO disagreement there.
However, I think it’s far-reaching to state that the “Uber Pure” Catholics are condemning or pointing fingers by pointing the explicit Church teaching on the issue: that marriages are supposed to default to being completely open to life, and that if a serious issue arises that the couple has discerned necessitates the intentional avoidance of having another child at that time, they may do so and still be Catholics in completely good standing. And of course “serious” or “grave” is highly variable. But I think it is a GREAT thing to remind people of because of our societal push towards a contraceptive mindset. We have to watch ourselves because the temptation to plan families according to our will instead of God’s will (which might include delaying children!) is a very real temptation and sometimes a subtle one.
I don’t know that most Catholics who use NFP are wholly aware of how it should be used or applied, and I’d venture a guess that many are simply aware of the need for using NFP because birth control pills are abortificient and condoms anti-unitive. It’s good to spread that information, for the health of their souls, not for judgement of one another. We can’t judge an individuals motives because we don’t know their situation and it’s not our place to begin with, but if an entire population has a certain birth rate, it’s hard to assume that EVERYONE has the right motives. Hence why promoting Truth is helpful.

I have to give an account of my choices in life, I think I’d rather be guilty of being a little over the top on NFP, than being over the top on contraception, abortion, or (take your pick of sexual sins).

And you’d have a real point if the Catholics using NFP were advocating contraception, abortion or (take your pick of sexual sins).  But since they are not and are, in fact, obedient to Holy Church, such brave talk only bolsters my thesis that people who browbeat NFPers with accusations of a “contraceptive mentality” do so because they want the sensation of being a Courageous Defender of the Faith but are afraid to actually challenge actual opponents of the Faith who are liable to put up a fight.  Instead they browbeat Catholics of tender conscience who are already trying to obey the Church, knowing that such people will knuckle under to the browbeating and feel guilty for not measuring up to the standards of the Rigorists.  They imply, by statements like the one above, that failure to live up to the demands of Zealots is somehow to be in league with those who promote abortion, contraception and Take Your Pick of Sexual Sins.  It is, in my opinion, a very chickenhearted thing to do. Moral: Spend your fire on actual proponents of abortion, contraception and Take your Pick of Sexuals Sins.  Stop browbeating the people who are actually trying to live what the Church teaches.

Actually, Lynn, Mark has repeatedly stated an untruth regarding Church teaching, which is what most of are taking issue with. His larger point is being lost because of that fact. He continually says that using NFP instead of contraception is all the Church requires. This is blatantly false, which is obvious from any papal writing on periodic continence. He refuses to take correction on this issue, unfortunately. And just keeps stating the same untruth over and over. I’m sure we ALL agree that we should not be judging someone else’s motives for NFP…we should give the benefit of the doubt as our default rather than raising our eyebrows automatically. I’m sure we all also agree that “browbeating” people with the truth is wrong. (Except for Mark, who is doing a lot of browbeating of his own and advocates “shouting” at “deaf” people to make his point… I guess this only applies to him, though, because when “NFP zealots” do it, they are simply cowardly and mean-spirited). Anyway, where we part ways is where Mark says that there is no requirement regarding family planning beyond the method that you use. I don’t see how a Catholic apologist can defend this erroneous position.

Since crunchy/green/organic/Monsanto hating, whatever you want to call them nonCatholics clearly use NFP *AS CONTRACEPTION*,

“Clearly”?

why is it so hard to believe that a Catholic could be using it with selfish motives?

In the abstract, it isn’t.  Anything is possible.  But in the actual real world, the overwhelmingly obvious assumption that anybody outside the League of Uber Pure Catholics should make is that anybody using NFP is trying to live the teaching of the Church.  The weird *presumption* that there is some ulterior, impure motive says everything about the Catholic making the presumption and nothing about the Catholic practicing NFP. Should the day arrive that a Catholic tells me “We practice NFP because we hate Monsanto and hope to bring about the extinction of the race and the triumph of Gaia”, I will be sure to correct them on that point.  But as things stand at present, I think the Church is much more endangered by judgmental Pharisees in comboxes for whom obedience to the Church’s teaching on artificial contraception is not enough, and who tie up heavy burdens for faithful Catholics while not lifting a finger to help them.

Mark - every comment you write is dripping with self-righteous judgment. Please remove the log from your own eye before trying to remove the speck from your brother’s.

I’m really curious about some comments that were here before but are now gone…

He continually says that using NFP instead of contraception is all the Church requires. This is blatantly false, which is obvious from any papal writing on periodic continence.

Sigh.  When a Catholic who has been in rebellion asks, “How do I get right with God?” a Catholic will say, as a kind of shorthand, “Go to confession.”  It’s a perfectly good response.  The assumption, folded into that, is that the person will go to confession *to confess, have real contrition, and a firm purpose of amendment”.  It is possible that somembody might go to confession meaning to lie, cling to impenitence, and plotting to rob the priest after receiving absolution?  Sure.  Anything is possible.  But it would be ridiculous to say that a Catholic who told the penitent “Go to confession” were saying something “blatantly false” if he did not laboriously spell out that “going to confession” assumes confession, contrition and a firm purpose of amendment.  In the same way, it is silly and ridiculous to assume that a Catholic in our contraceptive culture who actually takes the trouble to practice NFP is doing so in order to “indulge a contraceptive mentality”.  The sane and sensible thing to do is to assume that he or she is practicing NFP because they *defy* the contraceptive culture and wish to live according to the Church.  All Uber Catholicism does is pile on guilt trips and judgementalism on precisely those Catholics who are trying their best to do as God asks.

No, Mary.  It’s dripping with defiance of self-righteous judgement.

Mark, I wish it was as simple as “if you’re practicing NFP, it’s good enough”.  I wish the discerning was that easy.  It isn’t.  We struggle continually to figure out whether another child should be in our future.  We have three children and one in heaven, and every pregnancy was complicated and every baby was born pre-term.  All healthy, thank the Lord, but it gives us great pause.  My own health makes things even more complicated.  Yet, we would be delighted to welcome another baby.  It is a difficult road to navigate, and we’re always wondering whether we’re doing the right thing by avoiding pregnancy through abstaining.  I, too, have felt the sting of judgment for having “only” three kids.  But honestly, my biggest fear is facing the Lord one day and hearing Him say, “I wanted to add this child to your family, but you didn’t let Me.”  OUCH… Trying to know for sure is a painful, hidden burden.

Mary,

There is a difference between the word “serious” and the word “just”, “just” being the actual word used in the Catechism regarding NFP. This is because NFP is an ongoing discernment, not a “we don’t want to get pregnant for the next six months so we’ll use NFP” type decision. I’m tempted to think you may have never actually practiced it? I could be wrong, but you’re reasoning says differently. Once you know how to use NFP and have charted, you and your husband are CONSTANTLY aware of your fertility. The discernment comes in every time you, with a sigh, can’t just sit down and go to the bathroom, but have to “check” first, the discernment comes in every time you want to just go to bed but need to fill out your chart, and yes, it comes in when you decide to or to not have sex at that particular moment. One of these things not done (checking, charting) correctly just ONCE means that it’s quite possible you have missed an important sign and since you have that very, very stressful event coming up in two months that it is imperitive you aren’t puking your guts out for, you decide to abstain. That isn’t serious, if you were puking your guts out for said event because you decided to NOT abstain it would not be the end of the world. But that does not make the decision to abstain for that very reason UNJUST. This is why most people say that the decisions involved in NFP are between a husband, wife, God and possibly a spiritual advisor. Because there is virtually no way for you, an outside entity with insufficient information, to know if it is or not. This is what Mark is frustrated with. I’ve seen comments in this very thread: “I’m personnally aware of some married couples who practice NFP as a form of birth control, with no intention of getting pregnant and with no openness to procreation.” that have nothing to do with spreading the correct info about NFP and it’s uses, but only with the making of a judgement that the person, unless they have SPECIFICALLY been told by the couple, “Yep, we’re using NFP wrongly, totally on purpose,” has absolutely no place in making.

Jen brings up a good point.  One thing that has gotten in the way of us practicing “NFP in reverse” is that our son has special needs- to the point of wearing us both out.  Sometimes, God forces abstinence on you whether you want it or not.

The prayer of St. Faustina comes to mind:  Jesus, I Trust in You.  I trust you to do the right thing.  I give up my concern on this.

Mark, Mary’s right, couples must have a “grave” reason to postpone pregnancy or space births. To say, “The simple fact is that the Church asks of the faithful that they be open to life by not practicing artificial contraception.  Period.” is a gross oversimplification.

Secondly, what does “artificiality” have to do with it?  Aren’t natural contraceptives also intrinsically evil?

Justin, other than NFP, what’s a natural contraceptive? 

Most of the ones I can think of can be called by another name:  poison.

Mark-

It’s unfortunate that a “Catholic apologist” such as yourself cannot see the error of proclaiming part of Church teaching and pretending that the rest of the teaching is implied and will be understood by everyone. Someone who wants to follow Church teaching can only do so if s/he KNOWS WHAT IT IS. Why you assume that “serious reasons” is implied and will be automatically inferred in the “you may only use NFP” teaching is beyond me. Given that I know several people in real life who were unaware of the “serious reason” piece of Church teaching, I take major issue with you refusing to acknowledge this piece. As a Catholic “apologist” and writer for a major Catholic media outlet, this is unacceptable. You are misleading people.

Your inability to see your grave lack of charity and your hypocrisy is also very troubling. If you are going to ‘browbeat’ people with accusations and mean labels, you hardly have a leg to stand on when criticizing other people for supposedly doing it. Harshly judging people for being what you perceive as judgmental is ludicrous. You are poorly representing what it means to be a Christian while condemning others for supposedly doing the same.

It’s become clear to me (from this discussion as well as others) that the only viewpoint you will tolerate is your own. So I will bow out of the conversation after this post. I hope my comments will not mysteriously disappear.

It’s like these people have never heard of scrupulosity, its spiritual dangers, and the risk of tempting other people to fall into it by heaping invisible restrictions on them based on vague internal settings like “intent” and “generosity” and “holiness.”

The problem is that there isn’t a single person out there about which it could not be said, “She *could* be more generous.”  If you start telling people that their ACTIONS “might as well be” sinful because their HEART isn’t in the right place, you might as well turn that right around and point it at yourself because the last time I checked, only two other people in history had their Hearts in the right places…

Scrupulosity is real.  It is dangerous.  And it’s very possible to inculcate it in other people.  Watch it and don’t be the cause of someone else’s temptation.

Jen:

It is precisely on behalf of folks like you that I write.  You bear a heavy enough burden of conscience on your own.  You don’t need some spouting popinjay in a combox ominously suggesting to you that you and your husband are “selfish” because you struggle with this.  You need help and support and the freedom to bring such matters to God and your confessor without ignorant flame warriors holding a Star Chamber hearing in a combox on whether or not you are a Good Catholic[TM].  That’s all I’m saying.  Whatever you decide should be between you and God and other Catholics—particularly self-appointed lay Catholic inquisitors—have absolutely no right to sit in judgement of you.  Your conscience is tender enough.  You don’t need bullies to beat it with a hammer of guilt to tenderize it further.

I have encountered Catholics who seem judgmental about NFP vs. contraception and I have encountered Catholics who seem judgmental about using NFP vs. using nothing.  Thank God my Catholic friends are doing neither. I was married for twenty years when my husband walked out on me and our seven children.  One thing he couldn’t take anymore was life in a large family.  I’m not sorry we had the kids but I will say I have gained some perspective from these difficult times. The intimidated ones need to stop caring what anybody besides God thinks about their marital issues. They have expressed that they embrace Church teaching, what else matters?  The armchair theologians/self appointed apologists need to get a life.  Go listen to music on youtube or something.  We prolifers and amateur apologists do nothing but browbeat each other and preach to our choirs. Where are the conversions from all this debating? Enough already.  And keep up your good work, Mr. Shea.

Okay, one more comment, to Molly since she addressed me.

Molly - if you had read all my post, you would have seen that I have practiced NFP (and I likely will do so again in the future. I know, it’s usually assumed that anyone who promotes the fullness of Church teaching on this issue is unaware of what it takes to use NFP). From personal experience and from the experience shared with me by others, I just do not agree that you won’t bother with NFP without a truly serious reason. As I said above, simply not wanting to have another baby (even just for a frivolous reason) is compelling enough for many couples to abstain. Perhaps it is not that way for you, but you can’t universalize your experience. And by the way, regardless of the word the CCC uses, various popes have used different words, including “just,” “serious,” and “grave.” Taken together, we get a better picture of the real teaching than we would if we just pick one of those words to focus on. How do we know what “just” reason is without some other guidance? A just reason is a serious one. It’s not frivolous. What constitutes a just/serious/grave reason will vary by couple. I think we all know that.

Mr. Shea, I believe you are missing the point that so many commenters are making and are instead assuming that their meaning is to say that using NFP with a “contraceptive mentality” is that people choose NFP in order to contracept, instead of artificial contraceptives. What people are actually saying is simply that it is possible, and in fact easy, to OVERuse NFP. In other words, yes, people are trying to follow the teachings of the Church when they practice NFP, and yes, that is why they practice NFP. However, and this is the whole reason certain commenters continue to try to correct you (not “browbeat”), if people don’t have a proper understanding of how and WHEN to use NFP, there is a very REAL danger of using it for one’s own convenience, aka contraceptively, and without the will of God in mind. It is dangerous to simply say practicing NFP is enough, because it’s not. Practicing it in accordance with Church teaching is enough. Similarly, in the example you gave regarding Confession, it is not enough to simply make an appearance in the confessional and say some sins and say you’re sorry. It is enough to be truly penitent, and to lead people to believe otherwise would be dangerous. Furthermore, when you continually use capitalized terms like “Uber Catholic” and “Pharisees,” you are making judgements yourself and you need to knock it off. This is a reputable website representing our common faith, and it needs to be represented with class, not condescension.

Can somebody tell me where, in any official church teaching, it says that married couples are ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED TO HAVE SEX WHEN YOU KNOW YOU ARE OVULATING? I would assume that many of you have made the decision not to have sex because you were tired, both of you, and just not in the mood. THAT IS A DISCERNMENT, right there. Every time you choose NOT to have sex, for whatever reason, it is a discernment to NOT conceive a child at that point in time. Even if you’ve never used NFP and have no idea what it is. I would assume most would say, “Of course the church doesn’t tell us we have to have sex with eachother if we’re both too tired and we mutually agree not to, how ridiculous to suggest otherwise.”

There is a scrupulosity that is associated with Catholic couples and sex/NFP/contraception/huge families/small families/etc, etc, etc that exists because of the problem of secular society’s acceptance of artificial contraception. Let’s blame the real problem, work against THAT.

Mark, I’m one of your most sympathetic readers, but you have me confused. I’m with you 100% on the comboxers who think they can judge whether or not someone who’s using NPF is being selfish. But until I got to your 4:34 comment, I was puzzled. It seemed like you were saying that couples don’t have the personal obligation before God to try to be unselfish in making their decision about whether to avoid conception. That the question of whether to have another baby or avoid conception through periodic abstinence has no moral dimension at all. That any reason is “good enough.” That couples don’t need to try to discern before God whether or not they’re being called to have another child.
.
But, reading that last comment, I guess you’re not really saying that. You’re saying that by the phrase “using NFP” you mean to include the whole prayerfully discerning part. Because after all, by using NFP instead of contraception, the couple is already submitting their married life to obedience—so naturally the prayerful unselfish part goes along with that, because who ever heard of selfish obedient submission? You’re not saying that we don’t have the obligation to be unselfish. Yes?

Molly - No need to yell. No one ever said you had to have sex every time you are ovulating (but I know it easier to tear down straw men than to deal with the actual arguments being made). You are missing the point. The Church’s full teaching on the topic is available for anyone with ears to hear.

This truly is my last comment. If Mark comes back and judges and insults me some more, I promise to bite my tongue.

Mary,

“How do we know what “just” reason is without some other guidance?”

If you mean “we” as in you and your husband and no one else, then this question is fine. If you’re worried about other couples making a specific discernment (and not just being familiar with church teaching), then you’re in where you’re not needed, and possibly doling out guilt and fostering scrupulosity, which puts you (a hypothetical “you” of course) in much nearer occasion of sin than the couple you may be worried about in the first place. This (I think) is Mark’s point.

“What constitutes a just/serious/grave reason will vary by couple. I think we all know that.”

Which is another way of putting what Mark’s been saying all along.

I am honestly uplifted by what I am thinking Mark’s point is here.. My wife and i just had our first child last October. I currently work 2 jobs and am in Graduate school and about to start working clinical hours. It is rough, could be worse, but it is rough. We practice NFP because we want to be faithful to the Church and i think what Mark is saying here is if I were to give in to the very real concerns i have about another child or even before the first we could have just as easily used contraception but we did not because it was a sin neither of us wanted. We wanted to be holy in our marriage and trust God all while being open to the reality of children. Do i fear another child in the near future? YOU BET, and do i hope God’s Will is to give me time to finish school before the next one? DOUBLE YES. but i am still open and willing. I know God’s grace sustains us and we are resolute to be faithful Catholics. We use NFP, we are open to children but certainly have anxiety about another soon, we hope God’s Will is similar to what we want (selfish? probably i cant be perfect). Thanks for this post Mark.

“I came to bring a sword”.  We are *all* at war with *ourselves*.  Scrupulosity is not the solution.  Nor is a lack of introspection.  I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I can speak for myself, and all my children with their astonishingly different personalities.  SELFISHNESS comes pretty darned easy, whether we’re talking about money, sex, food, sleep, toys, time, or who gets “shotgun” in the front seat of the car.  It’s up to us individually, and before God to navigate life by being as “open to life” as we can possibly be, even if this means maybe making a better homecooked meal on any given day, or patiently listening to a stuttering five-year-old who has trouble anunciating. Perhaps being “open to life” is deciding not to have a baby, so you can better take care of the ones you have, or your medical condition. I was never taught that artificial contraception was wrong when I was growing up.  I am SO happy, that the living and written examples of joyful Catholics who are open to life, along with reading the words of several popes helped me to understand the beauty of giving of myself, more and more.  It’s a journey.  It requires frequent examination of conscience. Legalism—conforming to the letter of the law—isn’t going to help any of us when we stand before our maker.  We and He will see all of the inner motivations we had in life—We will see who and what we put first.  Bringing this reality up shouldn’t be considered “brow beating”, anymore than *any* sermon or witness of self renunciation should be looked upon this way.  Things people say and do, prick my conscience ALL THE TIME.  It’s up to *me* to prayerfully discern if I am being scrupulous, or need to be a little more honest with my actions or omissions.

Abby:

Right.

Molly:

You get my point.

Thank you, Mark.  Ironically, this is one of those times when I actually wish Mother Church WOULD give some more specific criteria.  But then, I suppose that would cheat each individual and each couple out of the growth that comes from struggling and opening one’s heart to God’s will.  Blind obedience to a list of requirements does not bring about conversion, and that is the *gift* of this heavy and hidden burden, is it not?  A continual conversion.  Endless chances to examine our hearts and our motives, and push ourselves toward greater surrender.  I can only cling to the hope that God sees the sincerity with which we struggle to find out what He asks of us and do it.  If we’ve failed, I have to hope in mercy.

Jen,

Thanks for that. I have similar struggles to you (at least I think I do, from what you’ve shared) and what you’ve just posted above are my thoughts I couldn’t put words to.

Jen and Molly:

FWIW, I think you delight the heart of God with your eagerness to serve him.  You certainly inspire me.

Thanks Mark! It’s worth quite a bit.

Frankly, I’ve encountered NFP-zealotry more than NFP-normalcy. Between the books and NFP couples we’ve encountered, the general attitude is if you don’t live on some farm in rural Pennsylvania with a stay-at-home wife and six home-schooled kids you’re part of the great unwashed. Working wife? Gaaah, modernists! TWO cars? Selfish. Three kids! The loss of their childhood! Inside plumbing!…well, okay, I’m being a bit sarcastic but you get the gist.

We live in California, both work (have to), three kids in (gasp!) public school. At our old parish we were talking with the parish priest about NFP and such and he became so excited, “Would you consider working in our marriage ministry, we have a hard time, um, finding, um, normal people like you and your wife to discuss NFP.” He readily admitted that to young couples living in expensive areas where woman have (and want) careers, NFP is a hard sell. It shouldn’t HAVE to be but part of the problem is well, those doing the advertising.

‘‘There’s only one thing worse than liberalism in religion, and that’s a conservatism that has a basis in truth but twists it so it becomes an ugly burden.’’

It gives me pause to read the above sentence…I think I’d rather err on the side of caution. My idea of frightening is someone who has just enough information to twist it into what makes them feel personally ‘comfortable, without having a clue as to the intent of the law.

I find this entire straw man argument off-putting. Some nameless reader sends an email about a nameless blogger on a nameless blog and ‘tada!’ we have a huge controversy and a common enemy - those nasty, judgmental Catholics who are more Catholic than the Pope! I, too, have read much commentary concerning NFP of late but what I have not found is any of the judgmental opining of which you speak. What appears to be happening in the blogosphere of late, is a tweaking of consciences. Being reminded that maybe we don’t have the purest of intentions tends to cause quite of bit of dander-raising in some.

For example, Colleen of Catholic Sistas, wrote a great post about NFP - http://www.catholicsistas.com/2012/05/11/why-you-dont-have-to-use-nfp/ recently. Nowhere does she pass judgment - she simply reiterates what any well versed Catholic should already know. The Church asks married couples to regard their childbearing decisions with a well formed conscience as well as being armed with ALL of the teachings of Mother Church (not just a Cliff Notes version). 

It is most definitely possible to use NFP with a contraceptive heart - for example, the husband of one of my friends who refused to make love to her when she was fertile or the couple who put off having children until they can ‘afford’ them or they ‘get used to being married first’. Our priest’s response to that one? Why get used to living without children when the purpose of marriage is to live WITH them?

No one has been personally attacked. No finger pointing has been done. Only the sharing of Church teaching in the interest of community. We share recipes, bargains, and ways to take out stains in laundry. Why would we not do the same when our Eternal Salvation is at stake? Of course advice is given to those with whom we have commonality! But such advice can be heeded and then taken or left at the behest of the reader!

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Andrew- your post made me laugh! And I totally understand, also living in California and pregnant with number three and definitely still needing to work in addition to my husband. NFP is so unheard of in my area it is frustrating to hear these discussions when I am faced with the reality that very few people don’t contracept and our parishes don’t seem to care or even want to broach the subject. NFP users are a veryyyy tiny minority here. I wish all of us could focus more on how to change that reality!

Mark: thank you so much for this post, which was a source of comfort and hope for me today.

I would guess that from all external appearances, my husband and I are precisely the sort of “contraceptive-mentality” couple some of your readers might have in mind.  We have two children, widely spaced, and enough financial resources for a nice house, private school tuition, family vacations, etc. etc.

It has been very humbling and humiliating for me to accept over the years that while we have been blessed financially, we do not have the emotional, physical or health resources to care for any more children lovingly and responsibly right now—at least, not that we can discern, through much prayer and spiritual direction.  While I don’t struggle with mental illness, I see women such as Andres Yates and think, “there but for the grace of God go I.”

I have had to learn that God is not asking me to root out my inherent selfishness by demanding that I seek out pregnancy after pregnancy in a misguided martyrdom. Instead, I am being called to love and serve my children and my husband every day, more and more; to remain open to life; and to keep begging God that He help us hear and do His will, no matter the cost. Obviously, if we have an unexpected pregnancy, I believe God will give us the help we need to care for this new little life, but because of our circumstances and discernment process, I also believe that it would be foolish, if not sinful, to deliberately seek out pregnancy right now. I also have hope because I know that we may find ourselves in a different place in the future, and eager to welcome more children.

I can’t help but think that some of those Catholics who hold far more stringent standards than the Church does about what constitutes valid reasons for using NFP are people who at one point may have validly discerned that they could not responsibly accept more children, but who were somehow guilt-tripped themselves into taking on more than they could properly manage.  In my (limited) experience, the apparent self-righteousness of such Catholics springs from secret bitterness and grief; it is hard to be compassionate and merciful in areas where we ourselves have been denied compassion.

So thank you for your timely post..

This happened to my wife and I.  When we married, neither of us saw the problem with contraception.  About two years into our marriage, I was trying to form my conscience by listening to apologetics and reading everything I could about Church teaching.  Through the grace of God, I was finally convinced that the Church’s teaching was the way to go; my wife, on the other hand, disagreed.  This was a very challenging, very painful time in our marriage where we had this huge tug-of-war between what we wanted to do and what we should be doing.  After a few trips to our priest and a lot of prayer, she begrudgingly agreed to attend NFP classes with me.  At the first class she was like an unruly student sitting in detention - she couldn’t have looked more miserable and unconvinced; however, by the end of the five or so lessons, she was convinced and we had this great burst of sunshine in our marriage that had been missing for so long because of our disagreement about contraception.

While we attend a “Novus Ordo parish”, I am also an altar server for the Traditional Latin Mass once a week on Wednedays.  One day we showed up and my wife was so proud that she was no longer contracepting and she felt so free.  After mentioning this to one of the popes in attendance, they started sputtering how we were still contracepting and that NFP is only for those uber-serious cases that rarely ever occur in reality.  On the way home, she was nearly in tears saying, “I’m sinning when I’m contracepting - I’m sinning when I use NFP.  When am I going to be a ‘good Catholic’?”

This “helpful” person crapped their advice on us and it took a while for their biased comment to wear off.  I know their intention was good, but we all know about good intentions….

Jason:

Thank you—and please thank your wife—for your beautiful fidelity to our Lord.  Don’t let the Uber Catholics sit in judgment of you.  Hand all that garbage back to God and place yourself in his hands.  You are obeying Holy Church and trying to conform to His will.  It’s good enough.  God send us a million more like you and your wife, courageously trying to obey God despite the temptations of the culture and the brickbats of judgmental auto-Popes who tie up heavy burdens for the backs of good people like you and do not lift a finger to help.  Forgive such people, let them go, and move on.

I am a faithful Catholic living out my vocation. It is the uber pure, holier than thou, ones that have caused me great pain.

We have 3 young children, I don’t really want more, but we continue to use NFP as difficult and disheartening as it is. We use it because we are faithful to the Church.

We do not have a contraceptive mentality!!! We have love for our children and family and BELIEVE that we are being responsible by NOT having more. I know my reasons would not be good enough for many uber pure Catholics. I haven’t been going to the TLM actually, because their families of 10 look down upon my humble family.

Once you have children, and are open to life- how could any reason be unjust as long as you continue to live with the openness and acceptance of life.

Thank you for posting, Mark! I know you stirred up some resentment, but I understand.

This is for Jen and Molly: I have three beautiful daughters.  I wanted a large family, but God choose to give me a) preeclampsia twice, b) ongoing high blood pressure problems, and c) a medicine which keeps my bp under control but is a pregnancy category D.  I’m now 43, so the risk of bp complication of pregnancy is not something to take lightly (oh, and I reacted badly during my second pregnancy to one of the few bp drugs that won’t harm an unborn child, which didn’t do much for my bp anyway).

I used to struggle as Jen describes: how do I know I’m *really* doing God’s will by using NFP?  It finally hit me: I know, *because* I’m using NFP.  As any NFP user knows, there are plenty of ways God can work through the method to allow a baby—iffy charts, ambiguous signs, a cold or flu that starts right about when the temp’s supposed to go up anyway, etc.  The fact that I’ve used NFP for over 13 years now without a pregnancy confirms to me that God is answering my prayer, which has always been, “Lord, we’re open to Your Will.  We won’t test You by ignoring the health matter it has pleased You to give me, but we will trust You that if You send us a child anyway You will also send us the means, medical and otherwise, to fulfill Your purpose.”

If you are dealing with serious issues and use NFP, be at peace!  I firmly believe God will let couples know if He wishes them to conceive, sometimes by simply sending the baby, sometimes by removing the obstacle, sometimes by speaking to their hearts in prayer.  He loves us and wants the best for us and for the children He planned for us from the beginning—God is the true natural family planner, after all! Using NFP is not saying “no” the way that using artificial birth control or abortion is; using NFP is saying “Thy Will be done,” like anything else we do for the sake of the kingdom.

So do an over burdened planet and plenty of poor people who need care and attention count as serious reasons?

WhoaBuddy:

It may for one person’s conscience.  It may not for another’s.  Paul, in Romans 14, says that each person should do as his or her conscience bids and not sit in judgment of another, nor tempt another to violate their conscience, but thank God that each seeks to serve Christ as best they can.  I suggest a reading of Romans 14.

Jumping ahead to reply to Jen:

By using NFP you are recognizing that it might not be wise to add to your family, for all the very serious and just reasons you stated, but you’re sending a big message to God that you’re not trying to block His plan.

If He thinks you can manage another baby, you’ll have one.

My husband and I never had children, although we were always faithful to Church teaching throughout our entire marriage. Now we are on in years, but it’s OK - God is showing us that there are many was to be a parent, such as to be especially good friends to single Catholics who live alone, and to young parents of large families who need a little encouragement and a helping hand from time to time.

I would like to suggest that many of the people who have had unfortunate encounters with NFP uber-Catholics would perhaps want to understand that the world is full of all kinds of people: and two kinds of people, generally - safe, respectful people, and unsafe, disrespectful people. Safe, respectful people don’t encroach on you, your life, your business. They wouldn’t want to. They don’t intrude. They would find it repellent and unsavory ever to pry or to intrude into something that wasn’t their business, like sneakily opening your wallet or your purse and nosing around. Safe, respectful people would wince at even the thought of doing that. And the thought of discussing the intimate details of what goes on within the sanctity of your home . . . . well, you couldn’t pay them enough money. Until they get to know you very well as close friends, and even then, safe, respectful people would tread carefully and be very reticent about expressing an opinion, unless asked. If invited, and asked, yes, then they would give an opinion, to a close friend or family member.

Unsafe, disrespectful people on the other hand, would have no problem with prying, nosying, sneaking, confronting, commandeering the details of the private and personal lives of anyone . . . anyone naive enough to give them an opening to do so, perhaps by sharing just a tad more information than is wise. Many of these people are outright bullies, waiting for an opening to pounce and seize on another hapless victim. Then they will bossily harangue, harass, and prognosticate until they at last feel that they have won the victory - that they have taken away your power, diminished you, and now they can lord their power, their specialness and their expertise over you.

The old song from the 70s put it so well:

“There’s people runnin’ ‘round loose in the world
Who ain’t got nothin’ better to do
Than make a meal of some bright-eyed kid
You need someone lookin’ after you.”

Sometimes these individuals looking to make a meal of some bright-eyed kid are Catholics, and are in NFP groups. It’s a mean world, even among Catholic, even among NFP groups, and it pays to be extremely cautious.

Be very, very slow to discuss any of your private, personal business with anyone but a trusted pastor / priest / trained spiritual director. It’s better to receive information than to give it. In an NFP training class you’d receive lots of information, but have to give very little. Play your life very, very close to the chest. Keep your own counsel. Let the others talk; you listen. Speak in generalities; avoid giving any specific information. Be like diplomats and politicians who say things like, “in general, the direction in which we want to move is much as the one you have outlined, however, a variety of factors can enter in to impinge on a surprising number of well-defined goals.” (What did you just say?  Yeah! That’s good! That’s what you want! Keep ‘em guessing!)

Read the Book of Proverbs, in which the author stresses the value of saying very little in conversation with others. Mermorize that. Then, if you don’t divulge anything to these individuals, it makes it much easier to make an escape and also to avoid any hurt feelings.

Thank you.
.
Charting symptoms of fertility is always morally licit.
Choosing to abstain on a fertile day is always morally licit.
Choosing to have relations on an infertile day is always morally licit.
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Therefore, using NFP to avoid is always morally licit. Three licit acts do not an illicit one make. Church teaching on this is consistent ever since NFP was first theorized in the late 1800s.
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Of course, deciding to achieve or avoid (or to just “see what happens”) is a matter of discernment for the couple. Some couples are called to have a large family. Others are not. But it is not REQUIRED by the Church. Besides, using NFP to avoid is HARD. If you are called to have a large family, you will not be able to continue to avoid with NFP for very long. That is why so many couples who do use NFP tend to have large families anyway.

Clearly the only zealotry on parade these days comes from those, both within and without the Church, with something against large families. The people looked down upon, sniggered about, and insulted (e.g., “don’t you know what causes that?” as you wearily drag your six kids through the grocery store) are not families with one or two children, but those with five, six, seven, ... . I’ve been inhabiting the ranks of Catholic traddom from years, and I’ve never—never—heard anyone criticizing couples with no or only a couple kids. It’s none of our business. This “issue” is another manufactured crisis by Mark, who has seen blog comments spike for recent NC Register pieces on NFP. It’s laughable to assert that the problem in the Church today is that people with small families are being maltreated by the meanie Donatists with lots of kids. Their persecution complex is entirely self-inflicted. Although it might give some pause that the world has no problem with couples who have one, or two, or maybe three kids, but bares its fangs against couples with a shoeful.

Mark, I’m pretty sure I remember the Church saying not to worry about fears of world overpopulation. (And it looks like we may be headed for underpopulation anyway.) I don’t remember the exact publication, but I believe it was something from JPII.

“the brickbats of judgmental auto-Popes who tie up heavy burdens for the backs of good people like you and do not lift a finger to help.”

Is it your habit to insult people this way? This faux-intellectual writing style betrays your pretentiousness. Stop this incendiary vitriol directed at fellow Catholics. It is contrary to the mission of this site and your blog.

This “issue” is another manufactured crisis by Mark, who has seen blog comments spike for recent NC Register pieces on NFP.

Um, no.  This issue was raised by a reader, not me, and has been confirmed as an issue by multiple readers right here in the comboxes.  I was simply trying to give a little moral support to people who are getting it in the teeth from both our contracepting culture and from Catholics who sit in judgment of them when they are trying to obey Holy Church.  It’s ironic that you deny judgmentalism while, by your mystic arts, claiming to know my *real* (and corrupt) motivation for writing.  In fact, however, I haven’t a clue what else has been written on NFP here, nor what the comment numbers are for such pieces.  Nor would I care if I did know.  Believe it or not, I don’t lay awake worrying about such matters, nor do I give them much thought at all.  I’m simply too busy with a lot of other writing projects.  Having to respond to combox commentary is a chore, not a thrill.  Feel free to apologize any time you like for your rash judgement and calumny, Christophe.

JD:

You may be right.  Paul likewise taught that it was not objectively necessary to refrain from eating “unclean” foods.  But he still honored those of tender conscience who did, just so long as they did not sit in judgment of their brethren.  I think fears about overpopulation are objectively false.  But I would urge somebody to obey their conscience nonetheless, just as Paul encouraged those who had scruples about eating meat not to violate their consciences—and to educate them to bring them into closer conformity with objective reality.

Joe:

It’s fascinating that your heart bleeds for people who psychologically beat up a good woman who was trying to obey the Church, while you betray not a drop of sympathy for the woman they beat up.  And you then, amazingly, declare that encouraging the victim is “contrary to the mission of this site and your blog”.  I have this notion that “casting down the mighty in their arrogance and lifting up the lowly” is rather close to the heart of the Church’s mission.  My suggestion: show a little sympathy for the victim rather than the victimizers.

@Mark, “getting it in the teeth”  Please provide quotes, I’m just. not. getting. it.  The Catholics.  Granted, I don’t know anything about these Latin Mass types, and one must go way out of their way to rub shoulders with them.  Please, quotes.  I need to see them. These Catholic NFP wars are so grotesque. Thank you.

Marion:

A-freakin’-men.  If I have learned anything over the years, it is that the absolute worst thing a vulnerable soul can do is bring any personal issue at all to cyberspace in the hope of finding help or healing.  Expose your heart in a combox like this and you will nearly always find some jerk who will stab it repeatedly and tell you God is angry at you and rejects you, etc. ad nauseam.  The Internet is the agora, not the sanctuary and has a higher than normal population of people who don’t know how to function at an interpersonal level in real life, but who suddenly are freed by the peculiar nature of the web to say all sort of cruel and judgmental things here.  You need a thick hide.  Take your heart to a spiritual director or a trusted friend or spouse.  Don’t expose it to the fanfire of abuse that is the stock and trade of the heartless realm of the internet.

Anna Lisa:

See Jason’s note above.  Or kate’s.  or Andrew’s.  Or Jen’s.

Then why do you do it?  Why do you have so much advice to give?  Honestly, I’ve struggled with some of this whole blogsphere stuff.

Why do I do what?  Answer questions?  Because people ask and they need an answer.

I agree with you Mark.  Let’s give our fellow Catholics the benefit of the doubt that their use of NFP is in line with church teaching if they are indeed practicing NFP.  To do otherwise is taking on a role that is not ours to take.  Let us leave the judging to Jesus.  :-)

Who are you?  I don’t mean that disrespectfully, as I have appreciated much of what you write here.

First off:  The “NFP zealots” I normally meet are usually those from the opposite end of the spectrum, telling me how great it is that they can space their children, etc, etc, etc.  While I am sympathetic to those who use NFP for various reasons (I myself have some serious health issues, as well as having had 3 c-sections already), I am constantly amazed at how “in your face” the pro-NFPers can get about their “right” to use NFP for whatever reason.  My husband and I never took an NFP class (our pre-marriage counseling was done just with the priest, no retreat, etc). In a way I am glad.  I get tired of hearing how WONDERFUL NFP is because NOW they can space out kids instead of having 20 back-to-back (I exaggerate, of course).  To be honest, I think a period of abstinence, regardless of where you are in your cycle, is a healthy thing for every couple to experience from time-to-time (even the Fathers of the Church and great saints of suggested as much). 

Second: JP, you are wrong, intention is a part of deciding whether or not an action is moral or immoral.  For example: If one intends to hold off on having children to buy a BMW, that is obviously not a good intention and would call into question the morality of their use of NFP.  Abstaining in itself is not a moral action (good or bad).  Perhaps this is what you meant? 

Third:  It seems part of the reason we are even having this discussion is because we are leaving out the second half of the purpose of the marital act: unity.  One can be a baby factory all she wants, but does this mean the couple is truly pro-creative in the way that was initially intended by God in the garden of Eden?  Isn’t part of the beauty of the sexual act, and what sets us distinctly apart from other animals, is that there is a unitive aspect which units the two into one.  St. John Chrysostom reminds us in his homilies on marriage that without the unitive aspect, the procreative really means very little.  Is is through this union of three (the spouses and Christ) that we are able to do what Adam and Eve were meant to do: participate in the creation and ordering of the world.  We do this by being given the special grace to bare another human - a rational creature - (not even the angels procreate) and to name him (the task given to Adam).  I think if we actually thought about this aspect of the marital covenant a bit more, perhaps these silly discussions over using or not using NFP would dissipate.  This is because when one is concerned about true self gift, without holding anything back, one does not fall into a “contraceptive mindset” because he is no longer thinking of himself, but of the other. 

Just a thought.

Anna Lisa:

If you are asking me who I am, I’m an ordinary Catholic layman with a certain amount of education in Catholic teaching who writes, not as an academic or theologian, nor as a member of the clergy, but as an ordinary Catholic layman with a certain amount of education in Catholic teaching.  Since it is our faith that each member of the body of Christ has a duty to build up the body of Christ with what gifts and resources he has, I try to do that here.

Erin, thanks so much for the post.
And Christophe: I will defend large families all that I can. I know that they get much persecution. I will defend your reasoning and your strength and your bravery and your witness to the society we live in. All while struggling between wishing I had a situation like that, and learning how to truly love my own situation, for it’s what God has given me. All while feeling like less of a women, wife, and mother, yet knowing I am actually becoming more and more of one every day as long as I remain faithful. All while wondering if my only living child will grow up an “only child” with all the negative aspects that can bring, while being increasingly grateful that his siblings are accomplishing far more for him and his parents where they are than if they were here on earth. The same society that ridicules your large family makes me feel ridiculous for wanting to frame an eight week ultrasound picture even though it’s the only one I have of my child. We are not pitted against each other, even though our real enemy would love to make us think that we are.

The inquisitorial need to assume bad faith and make things harder than the Church asks is absurd. 

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING IN ASSUMING THERE ARE THOSE WHO CNSIDER THEMSELVES ELITE.

There is much more danger of inquisitorial judgmentalism than there is that people are using NFP in some sinister spirit of selfishness.

AGAIN YOUR POSY REEKS OF “inquisitorial judgmentalism” By name calling. Sorry Mark, but you are gaining a reputation, and its one that is exactly THAT.

@Mark, please be so kind as to quote these judgmental people that post their “stab-you-in-the-heart” b.s.  If the internet is not a respectable place to help build up the body of Christ, than maybe I should take that into consideration as well.  Plus, the socks really need sorting.

Moe:

Tell people like Jason, Kate, my reader or Andrew that there are no NFP zealots who assume a judgmental elitist position.  Sorry you don’t like to face facts.  But it’s a reality that the sort of thing my reader was reacting to occurs with regularity.  I’m not assuming anything.  I’m reporting the experience I and others have encountered with judgmental people. I don’t tell anybody how they should practice NFP.  I simply resist Inquisitors who imagine themselves empowered to read the souls of others criticize them the way, for instance, the Inquisitor at Jason’s parish tried to read his and his wife’s soul and declare them to be Insufficiently Pure.  If you want to try to defend that, knock yourself out.

Anna Lisa:

With respect, a catalog of all the horrible things people say in comboxes to hurt one another would fill up the Library of Congress and is off topic from this thread.  So I will pass.  My note to Marion was an aside.

@Mark, THAT, I agree with.  Where else can you find profanity about Mother Teresa?  But in my experience, this is the exception not the rule.  I have followed this whole NFP discussion with interest, I just haven’t seen this mythical vitriol and judgement being expressed in the com boxes.  Yes, I have seen a couple of rude comments but the vast majority of contributors here have been helpful and honest.  Other than a couple of maybe two obvious trolls I haven’t seen people judging others.

If Anna Lisa wants examples, she should read the comment thread below this post from Feb. on another blog:

http://cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/02/you-can-only-use-nfp-for-grave.html

Mark, I offer this not to highlight this particular post, but because I think some people don’t realize how unbalanced some comments can become on this topic.  Feel free to remove if you think it’s not helpful.

As a single perhaps I can offer some objective advice to the quarrelling NFP factions.  How about those who use it to space children call those who don’t use it in that way every time they want to avoid pregnancy.  This can be at any time, anywhere, and under any circumstance.  That way the uber NFP’ers can give their imprimatur, or not, and be happy, and the rest can have peace of mind that they checked with the “experts” and won’t be gossiped about or judged.  This is sort of like twelve step groups or diet groups have support buddies people can call when they need it.  (Yes I know no-one would ever do this.  That’s why I said it :)

In addition, for all the “persecution” large families say they get, they do get treated like royalty by the Church compared to the rest of us, so I think things even out. 

Also, I thought only priests had the authority to guide a person’s conscience in matters of discernment of sin.

Okay uber NFP’ers, say it to me now.  Single females should know nothing about NFP other than the fact that it exists (maybe not even that) because we would use it to be promiscuous.  Note to the married:  Any single female who is intereted in using it to to “cheat” in probably not really interested in using NFP anyway and they’ll use “something else.”  DUH.

Posted by Molly on Monday, May 21, 2012 9:26 PM (EST):
“All while wondering if my only living child will grow up an “only child” with all the negative aspects that can bring . . . ” 

I have to let you know, Molly, that my father (approaching his 92nd birthday in August) was an only child (totally not by choice) and my nephew of nineteen years (also an only child not by choice) are wonderful, bright and caring people whose existences have contributed a lot of good things to the people around them. They may have a few character flaws due to being “only” but I’ve seen plenty of “not-onlies” with more serious flaws. Enjoy your child and trust yourself.

Oh Erin- that article is infuriating! Guess I am selfish for using NFP to space kids so I wouldn’t get pregnant at 2.5 months postpartum. Definitely sinning for being selfish enough to want to heal from my C section and breast feed my infant. Sheesh the guy presents it like there is a checklist of objective criteria.

Why does the Catholic Register allow such a rude article to be printed. Who is Mark to judge people as being holier than thou. I’m not taking any sides here but I do have an opinion. Why not practice civility? There is a Christian way to discuss this stuff. I sincerely wish the Catholic register would not print articles where the author is accusing people of being holier than thou while being exactly that himself. I think take the plank out of your own eye fits here. I couldn’t get past the first couple of sentences. Christian Love? Really? Come on Register act Catholic!

Who is Mark to judge people as being holier than thou.

Beyond parody.  Stand up to people who heap scorn on good people—disobedient to no teaching of the Church—for having less than five kids; encourage those who have been browbeaten by bullies who accuse them of holding a “contraceptive mentality” (though they are trying to obey the Church) and *you* are the judge.

Wow.  Just wow.

“If a fan of NFP wants to have 25 kids and their spouse agrees…”  I kind of thought this was an interesting quote…
I am personally not a fan of NFP.  My husband and I do not practice it.  However, we just let nature take its course and God has blessed us abundantly.  My husband and I don’t feel that we have a serious or grave enough reason for it. 
However, I realize that other people do have serious and grave reasons.  And their serious/grave reason may be serious/grave to them and their temperament or personality, but not necessarily us if we had the same situation.  And it’s none of my business anyway.
There is an assumption in the Catholic world that you must be a fan (and user) of NFP.  It’s as if everyone must chart.  No where in the Commandments or Catechism does it say this.  Your quote seemed to imply that.

Laura:

Sorry I was unclear.  Obviously, nobody is under any obligation to use NFP.  They are merely under an obligation *not* to use artificial contraception.  In short, we are obliged to “cooperate with nature”.  Some married couples cooperate with nature via NFP.  Other married couples cooprate with nature by making whoopie when the mood takes them, come what may.  ‘Sup to them.

Thank you for this article Mark.
I understand that your piece is not meant as a corrective to the browbeating that can frequently be encountered online.

I am curious how periodic abstinence is so readily equated to a ‘contraceptive mentality’.  Where has that phrase ever been used (officially) in relation to anything other than *actual* contraception, abortion, or sterilization?

And there is a difference.  Periodic abstinence is not just contraception by other means.  Contraception is the deliberate suppression of the body’s fertility.  Periodic abstinence is not.  Contraception says to God, “I will not abide by Your laws.” Periodic abstinence says, “I will abide by Your laws.”

I have seen the phrase ‘use NFP selfishly’ used.  How does one selfishly submit oneself to God’s design?  By definition one’s actions are then always open to life?

Also, where is the word “grave” ever used in any official statement of the Church?

How is one to read the word “serious”? I can read it as simply “not frivolous” (I want to be able to afford Catholic school, or, a home in a decent neighborhood where I can better raise my children to be faithful Christians,or, I am fearful of the current state of society and my ability to raise more than a small number of children) or I can read it as “severe” (I have terminal cancer, or, I have no job).

As an aside, from the exchanges above and on other threads I have seen, I wonder if this topic isn’t better discussed by men among men and by women among women.

Oops, I meant “I understand that your piece is meant as a corrective to the browbeating that can frequently be encountered online.”

Not “not”.

Ha

I have no idea what you’re talking about.  I never see anyone judge people for NOT having 20 kids.  What I DO see is a church that reflects the rest of the world, a congregation that literally stares at my family of 7 like the freakshow has come to town.  We have been persecuted far beyond the “sin of judgementalism”.  You just have no idea.  And I do not know if I can wade through the church documents to find out exactly what is permitted and what isn’t, but I know this: God said to be fruitful and multiply.  He never took that back, far as I can see.  But it seems like everyone I know just wants to be materially fruitful.  They wonder how can we survive on such a small income.  And they assume we don’t use NFP.  We do most of the time.  I don’t buy the claims that it is so effective for everyone, it certainly isn’t.  I’m not judging others.  And I wish they’d stop judging me as though I INTEND to have 30 kids by the time I’m done.  I do not.  I am simply using NFP to the best of my ability as the church ordains.  I suppose in order to fit in with such people I would have to use artificial contraception or get fixed.  But I already have a family of 7 so it’s too late now!!

Katherine,

I honestly can’t imagine anyone of normal fertility abstaining for years on end for a BMW. But even if they did, the abstaining itself would not be the sin, but their own materialist attitudes.
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One can do all sorts of things with improper motivation, including even going to mass. But that does not make going to mass sinful.

I’ve heard many different apologists and priests talk about this NFP issue. The general message always seems to be - it is not intended to be an everyday contraception method, instead it should be something used in ‘serious’ circumstances. One example I remember was that if someone suffered from repeated miscarriages, and the emotional and psychological health of the mother/father was in danger if this were to continue, that it would be morally acceptable to use NPF everyday as a permanent method. A different story was that if your family was barely able to afford their expenses currently, such that they might be in danger of going without necessities, that they could consider that a serious financial situation and that they could practice NFP (versus wanting to be financially cushy or engage in ‘material’ purchases, this emphasized merely having enough). Of course, it’s also clear that in that case the couple would stop using NFP when/if their financial burden lessens.

HOWEVER. I do agree that we should focus less on hammering on people already trying, and go after the people who need our help most. We should focus more on helping the Catholics who are using other unapproved forms of contraception and helping them see why the church wants them to use NFP instead.

“I do agree that we should focus less on hammering on people already trying, and go after the people who need our help most.”

“Hammering?”

“Hammering?!”

No. Respectful, classy, emotionally healthy human beings - Catholic, non-Catholics, atheists, or pagans - don’t “hammer” anyone about the intimate details of their private lives.

“Hammering” is for pastors and bishops from the pulpit, like Saint John Vianney the Cure d’Ars, and Saint John Chrysostom.

Catholic laypeople should promote the *principles* of fidelity to Church teaching, without, however, prying into any family’s personal, private business, or otherwise pointing the finger at anyone. The “hammering” should be about PRINCIPLES, not on PERSONS.

And Catholics and non-Catholics who react negatively to the sight of a larger than usual Catholic family may be looked upon as persons who are woefully ignorant and who are more to be pitied than objected to. Ignore them. Pray for them. If you believe that what you are doing is right, then you may say with the Apostle Paul, “If God be for us, who can be against us?” Meaning, of course, that no one who counts for anything can be against the one who is in possession of the Truth.

A scene in an old movie from the 40s about the life of a U.S. Protestant clergyman had a character remark that he would wish to see more people interested in converting “the heathen” in the Third World. The clergyman replied that he was concerned about converting “the heathen in the pews”.

There are “heathen in the pews”, and they need to be converted. 

One role for conversion is for us to understand what the Holy Spirit teaches the Church,which includes correcting what it never taught, or did at a time when the Holy Spirit had not broken in yet for the Church and the un-churched who sensed what the Natural Law required, and therefore what the TRINITY wanted.  One clear principle we find in Natural Law and in Jesus’ Beatitudes and the commentary on them is- butt out, or “do not judge.” Objective Truth and the Natural Law and Revelation sing from the same hymnsheet. If my neighbour got an old edition or a pirated fake copy, she does not need my insulting put-downs. Love is always required for any recipe of becoming holy and assisting others toward that goal.Honey not vinegar as the saint put it

I am a little “on in years”, and haven’t done as good a job at maintaining a trim weight as might be hoped, so not only “on in years”, but “matronly”. Sometimes, some of the “hot, young things” who work in our office or visit our office - very slim, buff, wearing the latest cute fashions, and with the great hair, nails, and makeup, - they act as if they don’t want to know me. Probably because I’m on in years and matronly. It is hurtful; it does hurt my feelings. But if I have been to Mass that day, have had a few moments in prayer before Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, then I find, in spite of any hurts I might experience that day, that Jesus is all I need. Not the love or admiration of the hot young things, but the love of Jesus.

There *are* classy and emotionally healthy “hot young things” in our office, too. They are just as attractive and fashionable as the others, although perhaps in a slightly more low-key way, but the main difference is, the classy and emotionally healthy girls are pleasant and cordial to everyone, not reacting in an unfavorable way to anyone who is obviously just minding their own business and trying to do a reasonably good job.

Here’s the difference: classy people - even non-Catholic and non-Christian ones - are “high-minded” and not petty or judgmental; they are willing to accept people on their own terms, where they are. It so happens that this is the example of the Master, too; when he walked upon the Earth, Jesus was able to win souls by first *accepting* and loving souls where they were.

So, classy, high-minded, emotionally healthy persons are not petty or judgmental toward anyone - if they persons they encounter are overweight, or not dressed in the latest fashions; if they are wearing out-of-date clothing; if their hairstyle isn’t attractive; if they don’t have a tan; if they’re not wearing any makeup; if they’re wearing too much make-up; if they have a beard; if their clothes are too tight or too baggy; if their neckline is too low; if they’re wearing a veil to Mass; if they’re not wearing a veil to Mass; if they have a foreign accent; if they don’t speak English well; if they walk too slowly; if they walk and move too fast; if they appear nervous; if they appear lost and not to know where to go; if they have several young children with them; if they’re married and have no children or only one or two children; if they drive a beat-up car; if they drive an older model car . . . etc.

Classy, high-minded persons - of any stripe - may be depended upon to behave as pleasantly and cordially as the situation requires, to each and every one of the above members of the population, no matter what.

So, from this we may understand that persons who make nasty remarks about large families, or who roll their eyes, or who ask prying questions about the family’s use of birth control, are without a doubt, ignorant louts who have not the slightest idea how to behave. Feel sorry for them. Ignore them.

And, similarly, persons who take others to task for not having enough children are ignorant louts who have not the slightest idea how to behave in public. Maybe they’re good Catholics, but they still haven’t learned the first lesson of decent, civilized behavior. Saint Therese of Lisieux in her autobiography wrote of some of her sisters in religion in the Carmel who had come from very backward origins, and whose behavior presented to the saint a temptation to be quite troubled and offended. Now if nuns in a Carmelite monastery can still be backward and offensive, surely Catholic laymen and laywomen - devout and orthodox though they may be - may still be backward and offensive in their behavior.

Please keep in mind that souls truly devoted to Jesus and to Mary are humble, gentle, unassuming, modest, lowly, reserved, slow to judge, kindly, and courteous toward everybody. That’s how you know those truly devoted to Our Blessed Lord and Our Blessed Lady. And those who are not truly devoted to Jesus and Mary, but are more devoted to themselves, may hold orthodox Catholic opinions, but are arrogant, domineering, superior, rude, unkind toward certain others. Don’t listen to them; don’t pay any attention to them.

Imagine if someone told a friend that she prays the rosary every day, and instead of saying something like, “Good for you!” the friend said, “Well, but are you meditating on the mysteries, or just saying words?  You might be commiting sin by not praying correctly, you know! And just a rosary?  That’s not enough! Here’s what you should be doing….”

Freddy, good point.

And it goes back to my point: classy, emotionally healthy people are *respectful* toward others.

Whether toward those with large families or small ones. Humble, lowly-of-heart Christians, too, are *respectful* toward others. Not browbeating, asking prying question, lecturing, humiliating them. None of that; neither toward those with small families nor toward those with large ones.

That kind of behavior indicates *not* holiness, but churlishness!

Mark,
Great article, which you then undermined with your own comments!!!!!
How can you make a judgment about “anybody who uses NFP” as if you know what’s going on inside each of their heads?  Heck, I’m pretty sure the same thing is not going on inside my own head and my husband’s!  Judging when to use NFP to avoid pregnancy has been the single hardest decision in our marriage.  It should not be done lightly.  Following the letter of the law is not enough.  Not that I am going around judging other people’s use of NFP, but when we present the idea in the abstract we have to remember that Holy Mother Church does require that we discern the use of it, not just use it and that’s enough.

Sometimes I wonder if Mark contrives some of these “a reader writes” articles so that he can condemn people on both sides of an issue as extreme, and demonstrate to us all his sensible middle of the road wisdom.

I think there are some valid points to this article.
I am concerned about a Catholic couple who use birth control reading this article.
Kimberly Hahn has called NFP ‘a prescription for difficulty’. Also she said it can never be a mortal sin to use NFP. Possibly a venial sin,but NEVER a mortal sin,which abc is always.
NFP is only to be used for grave and serious reasons.
Each couple through prayer and use of the Sacraments must decide what constitutes Church teaching on “grave and serious”. I have been accused of sinning by having too many children.
There is a difference between subjective truth and objective truth.
Matt 23:4 / Luke 11:46

JD, I was using the example as a hyperbole to show that selfish intentions do actually affect the morality of the act of NFP.  Intention IS a big part of deciding the morality of an action.  Consider the Pharisees who fasted and gave alms, yet beat their breast in the street.  Jesus condemns them, not because the act of fasting or giving alms in wrong, but because their intention behind the act was purely for prideful/selfish motives.  St. Thomas Aquinas discusses the “integral good” - both the action and the intent must be good for an action to be good.  If one is bad, then the action is bad.

As a young married woman, I will grant that if one uses NFP for any period of time to space children for whatever reason, a selfish/sinful motive isn’t going to hold out long, just because the period of abstinence (especially during fertile periods) is actually a difficult thing (God made hormones for a reasons).  However, it is missing a major step of deciding the morality of an action to simply dismiss intention.  This is moral theology 101 here.  Intention is what can make the use of NFP morally licit or not, since the simple act of abstaining from marital relations has no moral value (neither good nor bad).

“I have been accused of sinning by having too many children.”

Then you have been listening to false teachers. Why do you do that?

Look, Jesus told us that we would know His voice and would follow Him. He warned that there would be false shepherds, false teachers, too. But His true sheep would know these others were false, and would refuse to follow them.

If you truly know the sound of the Master’s voice, then, as you are able to ignore the sound of police sirens passing a quarter of a mile away, or to ignore the sound of crows squawking a few yards away; or to ignore lots of other perfectly meaningless, useless trivia that bombard our senses every day, so, too, the one who follows the Master will ignore false teachers.

The words of false teachers will be like soap bubbles floating through the air; shimmering and glistening in the light, and then -poof!- as if they had never been there.

Macrath:

If I want to say something, I don’t need to say it through a sock puppet.  I have a whole blog where I can say what I please.  So rest assured that when I quote an email, I’m quoting an email, not “contriving” anything.  Somebody wrote, so I tried to give them an answer.  As to the rest, you seem to to be suggesting that lack of extremism is a bad thing.  Is that really what you meant to say?

Re: various other comments: It is curious to me that, repeatedly, people have responded by complaining that they have been ridiculed for having “too many children”.  I empathize.  We got scornful comments out here in Blue State Washington for our third and fourth kids.  I was called a pig to my face.

But guess what?  It’s not people who practice NFP who do that.  It’s people who contracept who do that.  And yet Uber Catholics waste their time beating up people who use NFP as though they were to blame.  I don’t get that.

Nobody needs to wear a t-shirt explaining why they don’t have 9 children.  The management of fertility is a trinity in and of itself… Between God the Husband and Wife…. And nobody else.  NFP by NATURE is open to life, and there are plenty of people who chart faithfully and who abstain accordingly who have been gifted with a surprise child and love and welcome it.  So there.  End of story.  I don’t need to answer to anyone that the idea of another c section gives me nightmares, and having my entrails pouring out of a flap in my body sitting on a table doesn’t appeal to me.  If God asks me to have another one, I will put it in His hands.  Isn’t that the whole blessing of NFP? How is it contraceptive to not use contraception?  This is ridiculous. 
Thanks Mark, for the article.  I hope anyone who is coming to the church reads it, so they don’t feel as intimidated or condemned for past choices, and realize that their future looks beautiful.

Abby writes this:

Posted by Abby on Monday, May 21, 2012 5:02 PM (EST):
Mark, I’m one of your most sympathetic readers, but you have me confused. I’m with you 100% on the comboxers who think they can judge whether or not someone who’s using NPF is being selfish. But until I got to your 4:34 comment, I was puzzled. It seemed like you were saying that couples don’t have the personal obligation before God to try to be unselfish in making their decision about whether to avoid conception. That the question of whether to have another baby or avoid conception through periodic abstinence has no moral dimension at all. That any reason is “good enough.” That couples don’t need to try to discern before God whether or not they’re being called to have another child.
.
But, reading that last comment, I guess you’re not really saying that. You’re saying that by the phrase “using NFP” you mean to include the whole prayerfully discerning part. Because after all, by using NFP instead of contraception, the couple is already submitting their married life to obedience - so naturally the prayerful unselfish part goes along with that, because who ever heard of selfish obedient submission? You’re not saying that we don’t have the obligation to be unselfish. Yes?

————————

To which Mark responds:

Posted by Mark Shea on Monday, May 21, 2012 5:20 PM (EST):
Abby:
Right.

————————

But when Dave had earlier written this:

Posted by Dave on Monday, May 21, 2012 8:38 AM (EST):
Every married couple needs to ask themselves (and God) whether they are truly trusting God and whether they are using NFP selfishly.  It’s not an easy thing to discern.  It’s also not something for anyone else to discern, except maybe a spiritual director.

————————

Mark did not accuse him of simply being redundant.  He responded as follows:

Posted by Mark Shea on Monday, May 21, 2012 10:03 AM (EST):
Every married couple needs to ask themselves (and God) whether they are truly trusting God and whether they are using NFP selfishly.

No.  Every married couple using NFP needs to be commended for obedience to Holy Church, to relax, and to be free of the scruples that those who wish to be more rigorous than the Church would oppress them with.  Why do we tie up heavy burdens God does not require and lay them on the backs of the very people who are-obviously-trying the hardest to think and act with the mind of the Church? If you are practicing NFP, it’s good enough.  Don’t let anybody lay any judgment on you beyond that.

————————

So, Mark which is it?  Was he guilty of a terrible redundancy or something much worse (something judmenty or inquisitiony)?

When I read the comments of Dave, Deacon Jim Russel, and Mary above I don’t see any attack of a single person.  To remind people that there needs to be serious/grave reasons to use NFP isn’t being judgemental.  It just isn’t.  I respect the charity in their comments.

Sorry for the how clunky this type of post can be.

Mark (regarding the tone of your responses to those who say “Yeah, but…”):

You would have a real point if the people who post that there needs to be “serious reasons to use NFP” were the ones attacking all cases of NFP as “contraceptive”.  But they aren’t.  They are people of formed conscience who are TRYING TO REMIND OTHER FAITHFUL CATHOLICS OF THE ENTIRE TEACHING.  And for their troubles, they get hectored by Uber Sensitive Bloggers who don’t take it for granted that they are POSTING BECAUSE THEY ARE TRYING TO BE FAITHFUL TO THE CHURCH but instead feel the need to suggest that they are JUDGING OTHERS in bad faith.  These comboxers’ experience of Uber Sesitive Bloggers is a real one.  I’ve seen it myself in THIS VERY combox.
—————-
Any similarities to uncharitable postings above is purely intentional.

Mark,

If I meant to say lack of extremism was a bad thing, I would have said it.  Like I said, it seems to me you took a pot shot at NFP’ers as “zealots” through the mouth of your “reader”, then lectured us all on the sins we each commit on both sides of the issue.  Just came off as contrived to me. I feel your work often follows that format.  Pot shots at every one from left to right nested by a prayer request and quotes from the catechism regarding detraction and calumny directed at those who disagree with you.

-mc

Marion, you’ve raised some excellent points, particularly about class and courtesy.

It brings to mind conversations that my sisters and I have had.  What has happened in society that everyone—even good Catholics—think it acceptable to enquire about each others’ fertility and childbearing and discuss issues that our Grandmothers would never bring up in polite society?

Treating people with respect, as you said, can avoid a lot of pain!

And I repeat: it was a reader, not a “reader” who wrote.  I’m sorry you are offended at my attempts at balance.  Can’t do much about that.  Please try to stay on topic, which is the question of judgmentalism against people who are, in fact, doing as the Church asks, and not “why you dislike me”.

Michael:

I didn’t say anything about Dave being judgmental.  You are supplying that.  I was replying by trying to point out that the first thing comboxers need to assume is that people who are practicing NFP are doing so in obedience to the Church.  If somebody specifically tells you “I’m using NFP in a spirit of defiance against the Church” that’s when you should correct them.  Otherwise, don’t.  The story of Jason and his wife above demonstrates how destructive it is to “correct” people who aren’t doing anything wrong.

So why answer him with a “No.”?  Wasn’t he right in line with what you say is part and parcel to NFP?
And you didn’t call Dave judgemental, but you certainly implied something by ending the paragraph with “If you are practicing NFP, it’s good enough.  Don’t let anybody lay any judgment on you beyond that.”
—————-
Just trying to understand.  I wasn’t attempting to twist anything.  I’ll be upfront, I thought your posts (collectively, not necessarily the one I included above) were uncharitable.  I can get past that.

Mark,

I never said I was offended by what you describe as your “attempts at balance”.  And second, I never said I didn’t like you.  What I am saying is that in my opinion, much of your blogging seems to be an attempt to point out the sins of both righ/left, and then engage in a combox battle with those who disagree with you… which I find tiring and not so terribly edifying.

Macrath:

I don’t see what this has to do with left/right.  It was an answer to a question from a real live reader (not a “reader”) that I thought deserved a response and pointed to an issue in the life of the Church as old as Romans 14.  So I thought it worth discussing.

Michael:

I didn’t say or imply you were twisting anything. I gathered you thought me uncharitable.  I think people who lay heavy burdens on people who are trying to obey the Church are uncharitable.  So I wrote in defense of those who burdened people.  I don’t regret that.

Thank you, Freddy, for your kind remarks. Much appreciated.

And to those who say that they “are just trying to remind other faithful Catholics about the Church’s teaching about the appropriate use of NFP,” I very much hope that you are not “reminding” others in a manner that is nothing other than an ill-disguised and disingenuous suggestion that *they* personally have not come up to snuff. In your judgement on the matter.

Because, if you do do that sort of thing, then God help me, I very much hope that your victim will turn around and say to you, “that’s quite an attractive SUV you’ve got there. A 2009 model, is it? Those cost quite a bit. Money that could have been given to the poor and to orphans. Do you know for the price of an SUV like that, Catholic Relief Services could feed a family of four for 36 weeks? After all, the Church teaches that once we have met our own basic needs, we have a duty to tend to the needs of the poor. I’m just sayin’”

And, if upon hearing that, it is with great difficulty that you are able to restrain yourself from rearranging the speaker’s teeth, then you will know how it feels to have private individuals take upon themselves the mantle of the Church to issue criticisms of your private, personal choices - choices which no priest with his head screwed on straight would have a problem with - even a very sound and solid priest.

From the comments and the article, I see two, very different topics here.  Those are the topics of NFP and Responsible Parenthood.  As stated by other comments, NFP is just knowledge.  Currently my wife and I are studying to teach NFP.  Our training stresses that NFP is knowledge.  Knowledge of ourselves and how our bodies work is never a bad thing.  It is a closer look at how wonderfully our Creator has made us.
The other topic is of Responsible Parenthood.  This cannot be taught, but it can be modeled.  In Humane Vitae, we are told that NFP can be used to postpone pregnancy for serious/just reasons.  The Pope goes on to explain those reasons (economic, social, etc.).  Responsible Parenthood is a conversation between the couple and God as to whether they have a just reason to postpone their next child.  I agree with Mark that this is not any body else’s place to judge, but reflecting an attitude that is open to life is so very important in this culture of death.

Jen - regarding why the Church doesn’t give specific criteria, it’s because it’s impossible to do so. Situations in which it may be prudent to avoid pregnancy aren’t a “once-size-fits-all” situation. See this article, for example: http://simchafisher.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/why-doesnt-the-church-just-make-a-list/

Several people have helpfully remarked that the decision to use NFP should be left to a husband, a wife, and God.

This is quite true. And if there are any doubts, problems, questions, concerns of a spiritual or theological nature about their particular decision to use or not to use NFP, the couple should consult a wise and holy priest, preferably their pastor, if he is wise and holy.

Neighbors, acquaintances, fellow parishoners, fellow NFP practitioners, and assorted sundry laypersons in person or on the internet do not, repeat, not have the theological and pastoral training, nor THE GRACE FROM ALMIGHTY GOD to inform other souls about how they should be conducting themselves in their particular circumstances at this particular moment.

Certainly laypersons are acting well to share what they have learned about Church teaching on any given topic: about the need for grave reasons to space births, about one’s duty to care for one’s elderly and infirm relatives, about one’s duty to be generous in giving to the Church and to the poor, about one’s duty to remember the holy souls in Purgatory, and having Masses said for them, about how drinking to excess can be a mortal sin, about how driving too fast so as to endanger oneself can be a mortal sin . . . all these reminders are good and needful.

But if any of these helpful reminders is offered to such a person, at such a moment, and in such a manner as to express or to imply an accusation or a criticism of that person, then the one offering the “reminder” has overstepped from “helpfulness” into arrogance and into rudeness. This is never a Christian thing to do. Among truly classy persons, even a *parent* would think hard, and then would still hesitate before speaking in this way. And even then, a truly classy parent would do so in private, and would begin, “My dear, I hope you will forgive me, but I wonder if you would permit me to remind you that . . . ”

Truly classy persons show their respect for others by respecting boundaries of personal propriety. Even in matters of Church teaching. It is for bishops and priests to speak out more than that - in the pulpit, in the confessional, in the retreat auditorium, or in the rectory study.

Mark, thanks for this post.  I have been on the receiving end of disgusting and snobby comments both from those who think we have too many children (they do not practice/believe in NFP) and by those who think we aren’t getting pregnant fast enough (those who are faithful Catholics that use NFP or use nothing).  While both types of comments are hurtful, the former are much easier to brush off because they come from those who don’t subscribe to Catholic moral teaching—in short, they speak out of ignorance.  On the other hand, the latter group stings much more because they imply in their “innocent” comments that we are “doing it wrong” and are gravely sinning, and all that flows from that.
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As someone who struggles with scrupulosity, I can tell you that this kind of attitude is divisive and risks alienating many people who are simply trying the best they know how given their current circumstances.
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Look, it’s not sinful to find oneself in a non-pregnant, non-breastfeeding state.  And making judgments about someone—ANY kind of judgment—whether pregnant or not is simply wrong.  It’s nobody’s business whether someone is trying to conceive or trying to avoid or doing neither.  NOBODY’S.  I wholeheartedly disagree that “fraternal correction” is allowed here.  What a bunch of baloney - giving someone a hard time because they’re not “discerning properly” what to do with their fertility isn’t your job.  Try holding your tongue and praying for them instead.
—
For those who “haven’t seen” the kind of judgmental comments that Mark refers to, I’m here to tell you they are real, they happen, they hurt, and they often risk alienating people who are considering NFP, isolating those who are not pregnant, and ostracizing those who aren’t called to having a big family.  That is where the damage is done, and in our experience, those comments come from fellow Catholics.

Oh, and I wanted to second a previous comment to not forget the other part of sex: the unitive quality between spouses.  Sex ain’t *just* for making babies, you know.  The unitive and procreative aspects are equal sides of the same coin, both with intrinsic value.

Mark,

You say to me “I’m sorry you are offended at my attempts at balance”, then in your next post say “I don’t see what this has to do with left/right”. I’m confused… what exactly are you trying to balance then? 

My point in all of this is that I think you go out of your way sometimes to point out the sins of those on both sides of an issue (perhaps one could call it right and left) and then give us our necessary Christian correction due to us as “extremists”.  I think the reader’s example is a rare one in that I just don’t see the faithful NFP families in our parishes laying out persecution on others in the church. Though I trust your statement is true, that it is really a reader letter, it just curiously read like a letter that could have been written by you in order to make some point.  Didn’t pass the smell test to me when I first read it, but I’ll stand corrected.  And this has nothing to do with not liking you.. I’m sure you are a nice fellow :)

Hey Mark,
I’m sorry the haters called you a “pig” for having four kids.  I’ve never been treated so badly, even when I had five, and lived in Fairfax, People’s Republic of Marin.  I got one nasty note on my modified-to-seat-eight Navigator, and some looks of surprise, but that was about it.
.
On the other hand, I can’t *count* all the times people asked me if I was “done”, or “don’t you know how it works?”, or even “can I get you something for that?”.  My husband started saying “we don’t have a tv”, just to beat them to the punch, (until he promised me never to say it again).  A Lutheran relative asked a priest friend of mine, seated at his dinner table if I could use BC, since “she has so many now”, in front of everybody.  His wife stopped inviting us to her children’s catered birthday parties with live music, because it spoiled her yuppy image.  We’ve stuck out like a sore thumb for years now.  I just smile, laugh, and say “we were done at four”,to answer their question.  I still can’t work up the courage to ask THEM what their savings account balance is or how hot their sex life is in return. I get in the car and say “Darn! I shoulda said it!”
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That’s nothing.  I can take all of that.  But here?  On NCR? People bandying about the word “responsible” like that isn’t already a big “DUH!”  The snide comments, the meticulous charting bullies, and anger from those who claim they are being “judged” is ridiculous.  Please show me where this judging has been done. If polite people, speaking in general terms of the Christian ideal to intimate prayer and introspection’, on these tender topics offends you, or them than I would say (after the initial surprise) that this points at something else.  I’m simply perplexed, because you don’t strike me as the kind of guy who lets his emotions take over his razor sharp reason.
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I remember when *I* was ignorant on this topic, and needed to be gently challenged in my reasoning—like after my first NFP course, when I thought “Oh, the fertile times are when you should use a condom.”  What?  Why not? Isn’t the idea to avoid getting pregnant?
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I have mostly conservative friends that are *all over the map* in family size. I’ve known plenty of them for decades. I can honestly say without any exaggeration, that I *don’t remember a single time* that anyone questioned or brought up why so-and-so “only has one or two kids”  NOT EVER, and I have a huge extended, conservative, Catholic family too.
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Doesn’t it stand to reason that if there are rare places or super special groups that have earned a reputation for browbeating—that the conclusions to that dilemma is *obvious*?  One instance we’ve heard of on this thread: Jason.  Yes, Jason, the guy was an a—-ole, and I’m so sorry. I’d stay out of that neck of the woods if I were you.  People like that don’t have much credibility!  They must be a tiny, tiny, minority.
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Mark, I really enjoy reading your stuff, but this one, well not so much. I’m just going to chalk it up to a bad mood left over from the Medj. thread.  Overall I really think you do a tremendous job for building up the body of Christ. Thank you.

Macrath: In this post, I’m not trying to balance anything in particular.  I’m trying to defend people like Jason, Kate, my reader, RMMT and others (who are all obeying Holy Church) from self-appointed Inquisitors who tell them that their obedience is not good enough.  For some reason I cannot fathom, you see that a being a left/right issue.  I regard it as an issue of justice/injustice.  It is unjust to assume that somebody who is doing as Holy Church asks is doing so in a “contraceptive spirit” when there is no reason to do assume this, much less accuse anyone of this.  As the people I mention attest, such an attitude simply wounds and is arrogant and presumptuous. 

In a similar way, it is arrogant, judgmental and presumptuous to assume I would lie and fake a letter from a reader.  If I wanted to write a criticism of the sort of zealotry I criticize here I can do it without resorting to sock puppets. It’s not like I’m shy about expressing my opinion.  Anytime I quote an email from a reader, it’s because I’m quoting an email from a reader.

Finally, why do you take to yourself the charge of being an extremist?  My piece was, quite clearly, directed at those who browbeat practitioners of NFP for their alleged “contraceptive mentality”.  You say you don’t do this and don’t know anybody who does.  That’s good.  I commend you for it.  But as my reader and several commenters make clear, such people do exist and do a fair amount of damage.  My comments were directed toward helping the victims of such people cope with that kind of abuse.  Why then do *you* feel the need to act as though I am addressing you at all, much less call you an extremist?  Do you similarly intrude on conversations with victims of child abuse to inform everybody that you certainly aren’t a child abuser and you resent the implication that you are?  That is, pardon me, a a weird thing to do.  If you aren’t hectoring and browbeating people who are using NFP with the charge of having a “contraceptive mentality”, nor being hectored and browbeaten for using NFP, then I cannot see that this blog entry concerns you in the slightest.  So why borrow trouble by taking offense about a conversation does not concern you?

Anna Lisa:

Thanks for your kind words.  Bullies get my dander up, and particularly people who bully Catholics whose conscience is already tender and whose will is disposed to serve Jesus.  People who practice NFP deserve support and encouragement.  Uber Pure Catholics who instead scold them for having a “contraceptive mentality” are a particularly odious form of bully for precisely the reason RMMT mentions: because they wound in ways that a contracepting pagan can’t.  Serious Catholics don’t lose sleep when the world tells them they are idiots for obeyings.  That’s what the world does.  It’s when a brother or sister stabs you in the heart and calls it “love” that it really hurts, because faithful Catholics tend toward scrupolosity.  Having had my own trials with scrupolosity I am particularly sensitive to those who suffer from it (and those who inflict it on others).

I have heard my friends talk about using NFP with a “contraceptive mentality.”  This confuses me. I asked myself, “Does the fact that they choose not to chart make my choice to use periodic abstinence equal to a choice to use various methods of contraception?”  In the end, it seemed like the use of NFP for anything other than conception was a form of contraception in their eyes. 
Then the Couple to Couple League International (CCLI) linked to an article on “the contraceptive mentality.”  It was helpful to me.  It may also give readers common ground from which another discussion may arise.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/nfp-the-myth-of-the-“contraceptive-mentality”?replytocom=86555

My friends are classy people.  They would never tell me that I’m wrong and sinful.  We’ve all made different choices.  It is intrinsically implied; however, that since their choices are grounded in Church teachings,  mine, by extension, are not grounded in Church teachings and unholy.  In the end, I just remind myself that God is the ultimate, righteous judge, and that He alone knows the depths of my heart.  I keep praying on that, knowing that, in the end, we are all trying to serve God as best we can in our own life circumstances.

Mark,

Although you rightfully defend NFP in your article, I think you give credence to a non existing problem by publishing and addressing the reader’s gripe while then taking shots yourself at the self appointed “Inquisitors” out there.  Like I said before, I just don’t buy it that this is a problem (NFP families persecuting those who don’t practice NFP properly).

I think we need an article about judgmental NFP families like we need another article about the church being full of pedophile priests.  I find the work of the other bloggers here at the Register much more edifying than yours, so given that along with your statement that I’m “intruding” by commenting here, I’ll bow out.  I browse around the content here at the Register regularly, and regret that I dared make a comment criticizing your work and opinion in this one article.  Wow!

And by the way, I take back my “nice fellow” comment, Mark.  I was trying to be charitable, but after your insults of “arrogant, judgmental and presumptuous” directed toward me, I take that back.

Lalimace wrote, “In the end, I just remind myself that God is the ultimate, righteous judge, and that He alone knows the depths of my heart.  I keep praying on that, knowing that, in the end, we are all trying to serve God as best we can in our own life circumstances.”

Not good enough!  Where is your faith?

Look, is your pastor a sound and holy man, a man you know to be in line with the teachings of the Church?

If he is, and if you know that in conscience, the reasons you have to TEMPORARILY SPACE BIRTHS are legitimate and serious, then go to him, preferably with your husband. Set out before him the doubts that your misguided friends have placed in your mind concerning NFP. Listen to what Father has to say.

Then after that, if any further doubts should crop up in your mind, immediately say, “Jesus! Mary! Drive the tempter far from me.” And they will!

Because that’s where these kinds of doubts come from, from the Evil One!

God, in His wisdom and mercy, knowing human needs and human weakness, provides NFP as a means acceptable to Him in cases in which His beloved married children, exercising their human prudence, and for serious reasons, wish to space births for a time while continuing to enjoy marital relations, (lest in their weakness they should be tempted to sin, as the Apostle wrote.) And the Evil One who hates us, wants to drive us far from God, and lose our salvation by falling either into lustful sin on the one hand, or despair on the other, tempts us to believe that this lawful and legitimate provision, approved and accepted by the Church, is itself somehow sinful and reprobated by God. Which is a foul lie.

If Satan cannot drag us into Hell by causing us to sin through using contraception, pornography, or adultery, then he leaves off those temptations, and tempts us to believe that the holy Mother Church is lying to us when She gives the nod to this method of spacing of births while remaining open to life, so that we will not fall into sin or into despair.

You talk to that good pastor of yours. You tell him of these temptations. He will set you right.

Go before Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament and confide in Him, and in Our Lady, too. They will help you.

Macrath:

If you choose to ignore the multiple readers who attest to the problem my reader mentions and pretend the matter is non-existent, I can’t help that.  The fact remains, it’s a problem.  If you choose to take to heart a complaint not addressed to you or anybody you know and then accuse me of calling you an “extremist”, I can’t help that either.  If you choose to take offense when I protest your suggestion that I am dishonestly inventing sock puppet “readers” I can’t help that either. 

I have no problem with people commenting on my work and my opinion.  There are, after all, 175 comments right here.  I get hundreds of comments and criticisms every day.  What I object to is the rash suggestion, based on nothing, that I am dishonestly inventing “readers”.  It is not an insult to describe such rash suggestions as “arrogant, judgmental and presumptuous”.  It is accurate.  If you don’t like having your behavior accurately described, change your behavior.

Mark,

I told you I accepted the statement that the reader was real several posts ago, so drop it.  I haven’t been complaining about you calling me an extremist, so you can drop that too.  I’ve simply stated that I don’t think it’s a problem (NFP folks with large families giving other families the business)... I just don’t see it.  So quit attacking me.  I’m stating my opinion, which is that this isn’t a big problem from what I’ve seen and observed.  Compare it to those of us who do practice NFP, with large families, who are on the receiving end of crap all the time.  I contend it’s not even close.  I again just say that I think you drum up stuff like this quite often, then get off on the lectures and fights with us all.  Fine, we disagree, get over yourself.

I wish people would be more clear.  Contraception, whether it is natural or artificial is wrong.  This is because contraception is the deliberate closing of a sexual act to the procreative function.  Which is also why NFP can never be contraceptive.  Because it never involves the deliberate closing of a sexual act to the procreative function.  There is simply no sexual act, so the act cannot involve a “contraceptive mentality”.

Also, I see serious/grave reasons thrown around.  Not so.  The CCC speaks of “just reasons”, which is actually what the original latin of HV says.  Serious, grave and just mean different things.  And we only need just reasons.

And this is not to say that every user of NFP everywhere always makes use of NFP in a moral way.  Nor that (obviously) using NFP is coterminous with a full discipleship.  Nor that anyone has to use NFP.  But c’mon.  The point here is clearly that people who are using NFP should generally be given the benefit of charity.  Catholics who use NFP are typically trying to think with the Church, and should not judged by any external criteria.

That so many here seem to be arguing this elementary point is telling.  Where, indeed, are all these Mythical Uber-Catholics?

“Where, indeed, are all these Mythical Uber-Catholics?”

I have come across them in my travels on the web. Can’t remember exactly when or where. Can only say, some Catholic site a few years back. I do remember my jaw dropping as I read some of what these folks had to say about faithful Catholics using NFP for ANY reason.

I agree they must be a small minority of Catholics. But that they should disturb the consciences of tender-hearted Catholics struggling to do what is right, offends me no end.

Hi Marion,
I meant: they’re here!

I told you I accepted the statement that the reader was real several posts ago, so drop it.

Gracious of you to drop your arrogant rash judgment without apology.

I haven’t been complaining about you calling me an extremist, so you can drop that too.

Macrath: “My point in all of this is that I think you go out of your way sometimes to point out the sins of those on both sides of an issue (perhaps one could call it right and left) and then give us our necessary Christian correction due to us as “extremists”.”

families giving other families the business)... I just don’t see it.

And several readers have pointed out that your experience is not the measure of all things.

So quit attacking me.

I’m not attacking you.  I’m defending myself from the various attacks you made on me and my reader, including the charges that I was inventing a reader, inventing a non-existent problem, labeling you and extremist, being balanced (horrors), engaging in some mysterious left/right dichotomy.  Sorry you dislike it when I respond to nonsensical charges.  But responding is not “attacking”.

I’m stating my opinion, which is that this isn’t a big problem from what I’ve seen and observed.

And I have granted all that.  I have merely not granted that I was dishonest, nor have I granted that your personal experience exhausts the subject.

Compare it to those of us who do practice NFP, with large families, who are on the receiving end of crap all the time.  I contend it’s not even close.

And, again, this would really matter if the point of my piece had been “People who practice NFP have too many kids.”  But it wasn’t.  It was about those Uber Catholics who browbeat good Catholics for no good reason.  I’m quite willing to grant that people persecute and insult Catholics with large families and it’s wrong.  I’m not willing to grant that this grants Catholics with large families the right to browbeat Catholics who practice NFP for their alleged “contraceptive mentality”.

I again just say that I think you drum up stuff like this quite often, then get off on the lectures and fights with us all.  Fine, we disagree, get over yourself.

I didn’t drum up anything.  I answered an email from a reader who was asking for help and I gave him the best answer I could.  I don’t see why it’s so hard to grasp that your personal experience does not exhaust the limits of human experience and that it is possible my reader and others in the comboxes *have* had this experience, even if you haven’t.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/on-coping-with-nfp-zealotry#ixzz1vdqjLWvP

Mark,

Your readers letters are not the measure of all things.  Neither is your opinion.  I never claimed such a thing in my posts.  I simply said my experience has not been such, nor do I grant that Catholics with large families browbeat Catholics who practice their alleged contraceptive mentality with any great frequency.  I’m sure it has happened… it’s a big country, and we are all sinners… with the exception of you, I guess.

-mc

“Your readers letters are not the measure of all things.  Neither is your opinion.”

Who ever asserted “Mark’s readers’ letters are not the measure of all things?” or that “Mark’s opinion is the measure of all things”?

Helll-llo? Is this thing on? (tap tap)

Mark is simply writing on - HELLO - his blog about - HELLO - his experiences and those of - HELLO - his readers.

I know, I know. Maybe Science needs to invent a pill that Mark or any other blogger could swallow, that would make them capable of inerrantly channelling the consciousness and the memories of other persons . . . persons like Macrath, for example. And then, Mark could blog AS Macrath.

I think that until Science makes that possible, Macrath will never be completely satisfied with Mark’s blog.

Because all blogs everywhere have to reflect *Macrath’s* thoughts, *Macrath’s* experiences, and *Macrath’s* understanding of the way the world works.And only Macrath’s.

Sheesh!

I would just like to state, for the record, that my faith has been challenged here.  That, in itself, is hurtful.  I would also like to state, for the record that I know people who have made many different choices in their families.  I, myself, have gotten called out by my family for practicing NFP because it wasn’t safe enough and irresponsible.  I have also been called out for not conceiving enough.  This is plain hurtful.  If I mentioned that I am praying that God, the ultimate judge would know my heart, then perhaps my faith is weak.  Perhaps I am a bad Catholic.  At the same time, I know that my husband is not Catholic.  That also, in some circles, makes me a bad Catholic.  How can a good Catholic marry a non-Catholic?  I accept the fact that I will be seen as someone who is a bad Catholic and has weak faith because I married a non-Catholic and because I am spacing children.  I also accept the fact that I will be seen as a “zealot” for even using NFP because many Catholics think that it is a bunch of hogwash.  As I said before, these are people judging me on both sides, not God.  If we are challenging each other, how can we put up a united front when facing the general population?  If we can’t be loving to each other, how do people know God’s love through us? 

Lallimace, it was I who challenged you, not for believing in the Church, but for listening to anyone *but* the Church.

If you don’t like what I write, ignore it. Tell me to buzz off. It’s OK.

Except for one thing: Please, please please get to your pastor and confide in him. I want your concerns to be set at rest.

And, guess what, I’m married to a non-Catholic and we never had kids. So if there’s any labeling to be done, you’re a much better Catholic than I am. Much.

Who cares? It’s what I am in Jesus’ eyes that counts, nobody else’s.

I think you’re great. I’m shocked that you wrote that I hurt you. I sure didn’t mean to. Sorry!

Hey! Have a great evening.

I don’t want to read through the comments again—so please don’t jump on me if I ask the question:  Did anyone actually accuse *anybody* of a “contraceptive mentality”, or were we killing gnats with jackhammers,  when Mary suggested that it is not as simple as *NFP is fine under every and all circumstances*??  I’m glad this was not over simplified for *me* when I was stumbling around in search mode, and didn’t understand the whole thing seamlessly.  I think this was fleshed out sufficiently toward the end by you Mark, as well as others, but certainly not in the beginning.

Good grief Marion, feel better about yourself? My conversation was not with you, but come right on in anyway.

Mark went off on me as if I was saying my experience was the measure of all things… I never claimed such a thing.  I was being sarcastic… HELLO, anyone home, Marion? (tap tap)

Why is this so hard to understand?  I don’t think that NFP’ers with any great frequency give others a hard time.  I just don’t buy it.  I’m not making any claims on my knowledge of all things, I just don’t agree that it’s a problem.  Thus, I think publicizing a letter like this gives the impression that it perhaps is. I think Mark likes situations like this where he can rail on people on both sides of the issue.  That’s my only point. I’m not arguing with you, Marion, so back off.  Now I’m sure I’ve once again drawn the ire of Mark, so I guess here it comes…  Mark and I disagree, and frankly I’d like to be done with all of this.

Now after a long day of work with the occasional checking of some blogs for a break, I’m going to go home and attend to my large family.  I’m done arguing with you people.

BTW Mark, In the last NFP thread, a zealot was calling people who don’t chart “irresponsible”.  Horrible.  Several people were making snide comments about people who don’t chart.  Also, Linus I believe, in the above thread made a withering comment about families of “8”.  And then there was the fine gentlemen who was so sure that his parish priest needed his “normal” ability to teach NFP.  Ugh.  The silence was deafening.

Why are we having this debate when stuff like THIS is happening in our Church and in our world?
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http://oldarchive.godspy.com/life/NaturalWoman.cfm.html
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This woman had her priest, her pre-Cana chaplain, and her doctor tell her that NFP was unreliable and to use contraception. She refused, not for moral reasons, but because she didn’t want to fill her body with artificial hormones and she found using a barrier unappealing.  She found her answers, not from the Church, but from a secular book written by a woman who isn’t Catholic or even Christian. (The author is Jewish.)
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With attitudes like this from the clergy, is it any surprise the overwhelming majority of Catholic women use contraception?

Anna:

I don’t know anything about a previous NFP thread so I can’t say.

Macrath:

God bless you.

Lalimace:

God bless you for your willingness to try to live according to our Lord’s will.  Be encouraged and know that he is pleased with your attempt to do so.

I’m not arguing with you, Marion, so back off. 

“Back off?”

I don’t accept commands and directives from random strangers on the Internet. I would accept a request from the blog owner to cease and desist. But not from random strangers, fellow guests on the blog owner’s blog.

You, sir, haven’t the least clue of your place in the world, or of what the rules of discourse are among civilized human beings.

Maybe one day you will learn. I very much hope so.

Marion,

What?  You are ridiculous…  I’m not giving you commands and directives.  I’ve asked you to leave me alone.  I simply have expressed a disagreement with Mark regarding the premise of all this.  Perhaps I’m wrong.  I’ve been wrong plenty often in my 42 years.  I repeat, just back off me, please, and butt out.  I never originally addressed you, so if anyone needs to understand the rules of discourse, it’s you.  Mind your own business. Good grief. This all reminds me as to why I never have engaged in conversation in these kinds of forums prior…
-mc

Just noticed your comment, Mark.  God Bless you too, and good night.  I’ll be interested to read you tomorrow… I just won’t comment :)  (nothing against you, just the regular combox trolls)

And then there is my friend Suzanne, going into her third year of stage 4 cancer, who has a port drilled into her skull dripping chemo.  She is the beautiful mother of seven beautiful young children, and she can’t even risk pregnancy at all.  Quibbling about this stuff would be a luxury for her. She has an amazing, valiant husband.  They don’t worry about these matters right now, because they face death every day.  Please pray for them.  God Bless you in advance!

“I’ve asked you to leave me alone. . . .  Mind your own business.”

Hey! I know! . . .

. . .  That’s not happening!

Anyway, why are you still here? If you left and went home to your “large family”, you wouldn’t have to read what anyone here writes.

Sounds like a game plan!

Marion, you’re a jerk.  Good night, I’m done with you.

And by the way, Marion, my office is 10 minutes from home.  I have a Mac in the kitchen.  While the little ones were making a mess, and the bigger kids were out watering the plants, I hit the Mac to see what kind of abuse had perhaps come my way while I hadn’t been looking and as things simmered on the stove.  So thanks for that.  Now I’ll get back to my imaginary large family. Enjoy your night.

“Marion, you’re a jerk.  Good night, I’m done with you.”

I will follow Mark’s splendid example, and reply, “God bless you, Macrath.”

Thanks, Marion.  I was reading some of your posts around the many Catholic sites where you make comments with some frequency.  You seem like a sensible person to me. I still am perplexed as to why I drew your ire in the first place.  Don’t know that we’d much disagree about anything from what I’ve read, and I’m still not sure what this whole spat was about.  So God Bless you too, and for the 2nd time this hour I bid the comboxes a permanent farewell since I can clearly see that my hanging out here will require the necessity of daily confession. :)

Thank you, Macrath, for your kind remarks. Don’t pay any attention to me. I’m usually sensible, but sometimes can be a pain. Today seems to be one of those days.

I probably should be on the Internet much less than I am - this evening is a case in point, and should instead spend more time praying and attending to my home duties.

Again, may God bless you in your duties to your family, and I promise to pray for you tomorrow, too.

“The zealots do harm also to couples that are having infertility problems.”

Amen to Maggie. There is a lot of harmful presumption and judgement going around without real profound knowledge of two spouses and their situation. Once my husband (married 5+ years, no bio kids) told a new acquaintance that I was very actively involved in promoting NFP in various ways, and the good sir (who works at a respected small Catholic College) launched into a mini-commentary about how NFP criticizing how it’s way overused, and people are very selfish with it, practically eliminating an reason for it. Did I mention he is a single man? Whether or not it was a passive commentary on his presumption about our situation, it still reminded me of the harm of presumption, not to mention the lack of real knowledge and experience of a lot of NFP critics with actual NFP apostolate, especially to the unchurched and quasi-churched

Agreed, Rob: “I wish people would be more clear.  Contraception, whether it is natural or artificial is wrong.  This is because contraception is the deliberate closing of a sexual act to the procreative function.  Which is also why NFP can never be contraceptive.”

Whoever pointed out (there may have been several—I didn’t read all the comments) that spiritual direction and prayer are still point around which this discernment turns.

—>That’s true and beautiful, HOWEVER, along with the dearth in catechesis, there is a profound dearth in the formation of the INTERIOR LIFE. I’ve met many convicted practicing Catholics (and many more plain old quasi-practicing Catholics) who don’t know the basics of a solid interior life, let alone what a spiritual director is or how to find one, let alone how to teach someone (say in an NFP course or even book club) how to teach the same principles of discernment.

I’m working on a blog post right now that addresses the specific point of formation. One of the biggest problems in the Church with NFP (understanding of it, promotion of it, teaching of it, explaining of it, etc.) is that there is very poor spiritual formation to accompany it.

There seem to be two main issues here.
1)The definition of “serious/grave” reasons and who has a right to define it.
2) How we treat each other.

My view on topic 1 pretty much agrees with this article shared by the Couple to Couple League.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/nfp-the-myth-of-the-“contraceptive-mentality”?replytocom=86555
Couples determine this through prayer and communion with God and each other.

Topic 2:
We are called as Catholic Christians to love.  It is good to share our faith and offer correction if needed.  This needs to be done in a spirit of love, for love, and with love.  For the most part, correction should be done between people who have a trusting relationship.  This is hard to do on the internet.  We need to live our faith, and, by our example, others will ask questions and learn.  I love to see and learn from singles, families and couples, big, small, and everything in between.  We all have things we can share with each other.  We also need to pray for each other.  Someone on-line got you really angry?  Pray.  Pray. Pray again.

Marion,
Thank you for your clarification.  I was about to write something to clarify as I later realized that I may have over-reacted.  I see now that you were acting in love and concern.  It just so happens that since I first met some of the people to referred, I’ve asked a lot of questions of God and myself and am content with the answers.  The first time I heard the term “contraception minded” I was floored.  Lots of discussions with theologically educated people have solidified my view, and I don’t feel guilt as I did before.

Mark,
Let me just thank you for this article. Although I’ve never run into the specific comments your reader had directed at our family, I’ve been in a parish and parish organizations with a few of those types and have heard the comments being made towards others (which makes you think, gee, what do you say about me and my family behind my back?), sadly even from fellow Knights.

As my wife and I have struggled with NFP from the beginning, this attitude is NOT HELPFUL. Since apparently 82% of Catholics think Artificial Contraceptives are morally acceptable, it’s safe to say that there are bigger fish to fry in the Body of Christ than ensuring that every NFPer is even MORE open to having kids than we already are.

Personally I’m actually encouraged that a full 15% of Catholics will admit ABC is actually morally wrong. That’s a higher number than I would expect given the questions my family gets at our own church.

(Can we all agree the Most Annoying Question In the World, which starts right after you are pregnant with your third kid, is “So are you two done then?”)

The burden of chastity that is placed on all Christians is a heavy cross to bear on its own, for virtually all people of adult age, whether celibate, single and looking, SSA, or married and fertile.

Other commenters have alluded to other persons asking them, “are you two done, then?”

This is a ferociously invasive question. In another age, the proper response would have been to say, “how dare you? what an impertinent question, sir!” and if it were man to man, a challenge to pistols at dawn. I’m perfectly serious.

This is an extremely offensive, invasive, rude question, and it should be treated as such. Well, not with pistols.

This will require something of an acting job on your part, and will take practice. The following is to be done very very subtly.

What would be the look on your face if a very nice friend, family member, or acquaintance said to you perfectly seriously, “I plan to pull the Moon out of orbit, and then go (something really too obscene and offensive to print here).”

While maintaining eye contact with your interlocutor, all the muscles in your face, scalp, and ears would pull forward toward the nose. Your brow would furrow; your eyebrows would knit together; your lower jaw would go slack and drop, causing your mouth to open slightly. At the same time you would sharply intake your breath, and then in a rocking motion, your body would lean ever so slightly forward, then back away.

Next your facial expression would shift; you would have a look on your face as if you just caught a the faint whiff of a dead skunk somewhere not too close by, but on the property somewhere. Your mouth would snap shut; the muscles around your nose and upper lip would raise up very slightly. Your eyes would drop to the ground, then you would raise them again. You would take another step backward.

The key is that this should all be very understated, very low-key, very subtle. Don’t overact or “mug”. Your interlocutor will get it, believe me.

You might murmur, “I’ll see you later. Have a nice day.” And gently clear your throat, turn on your heel, and walk away.

That’s the response such persons deserve.

P.S. The above is the response that anyone should get who inquires about your family size intentions - whether your family is small, and they want to imply you should have more children “why don’t you have more?” or large, and they think you have too many.

You look at them as if they literally sprouted a second head on their shoulder, . . . murmur some word or two of taking your leave, and if your children are with you, lean over them protectively and shoo them along with you as you move determinedly away.

I promise you, that is the only proper response to such invasive questions or insinuations.

I’m curious to know how many people actually *know* people who use NFP to have a nice vacation every year.  Because I’ve been in a lot of different NFP circles, a lot of Catholic circles, been an nfp teacher, and I don’t know ANYONE who is willing to use NFP so as to obey Church teaching, just so they can have their time in The Hamptons.  I know people who have a small family because of infertility.  I know people who have a small family, because of illness (mental, physical).  I know of people who have a small family, so that they can pay their bills.  I know people who have a small family, because of *secondary infertility*.  I know people who have a small family, for a lot of reasons.  Honestly, though, after 15 years knowing couples who use NFP I cannot think of a single one who has done so to line their bank account and travel the world.  NFP is not an easy life choice to make, and anyone willing to use it “selfishly” probably just won’t use it at all.

It just bothers me no end that innocent parties are walking around, and being victimized, yes, victimized by loutish, uncouth cads (and cadesses, to coin a phrase) who ask impertinent questions about their family, their children, their plans, or who make rude and arrogant insinuations about the same.

Whether the family size is large or small, I hope that anyone who has been so victimized would take ten minutes to watch this to get the feel of the P.G. Wodehouse character, name of Jeeves: (Copy and paste)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXQ3qLr6eQI&feature=related

Now, having watched it, how do you think Jeeves would utter the lines: “I beg your pardon, Madam (or Sir), I don’t believe we have been introduced. My name is Jeeves, and these are my children, Alison who is eight years of age, James, who is six, Robert, who is three, and in the car seat is Megan, who is shortly to reach the age of eighteen months. Children, say “how do you do?” to the lady. Now, then, what is your name?”

I have a feeling most people would at that point suddenly remember their manners. Or run away.

And if the questioner or maker of remarks is someone whom you already know, how do you think Jeeves would utter the lines, “I beg your pardon;  I’m afraid I cannot help but feel that such a query is rather more personal than is warranted by the nature of our acquaintance. I accept in lieu, what I hope are your good wishes for my family’s health and success.”

Now, say that the way Jeeves would say it.

(That’ll shut ‘em up.)

This whole discussion has become disturbing to me, so I scrolled up to see what happened. The original argument by Mark was unassailable: The Church doesn’t teach that married couples are required to have as many children as they possibly can and simply trust that God will provide. This is demonstrated clearly by the excellent link provided by lalimace, http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/nfp-the-myth-of-the-“contraceptive-mentality”?replytocom=86555, which also included a link to another excellent, more in-depth coverage of what “grave, serious, just” means by Janet Smith http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/smith/smith_24moralusenfp.html

I believe the problem started after this exchange:

Dave said: “Every married couple needs to ask themselves (and God) whether they are truly trusting God and whether they are using NFP selfishly.”

Mark said: “No. Every married couple using NFP needs to be commended for obedience to Holy Church, to relax, and to be free of the scruples that those who wish to be more rigorous than the Church would oppress them with. ... If you are practicing NFP, it’s good enough.”

Dave is correct. Every couple does need to make sure they’re not using NFP selfishly.

Mark, I think if you’d just agreed with that, a lot of the combox argument would have been avoided. Practicing NFP is not, by itself, enough.

I completely agree with you that the reaction to any Catholic couple who is using NFP should be to commend them for obedience to the Church, which almost always involves a level of bravery to go against the prevailing culture.

However, I got the incorrect impression from your answer to Dave that you were classifying anyone who teaches that you need just reasons to practice NFP to prevent pregnancy was the same as an NFP zealot who insists that you have to have as many children as you can unless another child would kill you or put you on the street. I like your writing in general, so I sort of thought you probably didn’t mean that, but it was quite a ways down in the comments before you confirmed that.

As far as I can see, you and Dave, Mary and some of the others were just talking past each other.

In addition, one of the terms was misused by some people. NFP, technically speaking, can NOT be used with a “contraceptive” mentality (see the links earlier in this post for excellent explanations of this). It can, however, be used selfishly or immorally, and I think this is what people tend to mean when they say someone is using NFP “as if it were birth control” or with a “contraceptive mentality.” We need to be careful with our terms: someone using NFP is not guilty of the sin of contraception or a contraceptive “mentality”, period.

I can understand the reaction on both sides. While I haven’t personally experienced what you’re talking about, I’ve definitely seen it in comboxes and my heart goes out to Jen, Ted and Jason. It looks like they’ve all been presented with the Church’s teaching on the need to discern just reasons for using NFP in an unhelpful and sometimes even incorrect way (even if the people who presented it to them meant well) that led to worry and scrupulosity, when what they needed was commendation and encouragement.

But it’s also perfectly rational to expect that many if not most Catholics who learn and use NFP do not understand that you have to have a good reason to avoid pregnancy, rather than society’s default, which is that you have to have good reason to get pregnant in the first place. That’s not assuming selfishness on anyone’s part - it’s just being realistic about the world we live in.

The point is that people do need to be taught this, and that they need to be taught it in a nonjudgmental environment that assumes that through no fault of their own they don’t know it, and that puts this in sufficient context and gives LOTS of different examples of what this might look like so that people aren’t led into scrupulosity. This will probably almost always mean teaching from the pulpit or in an NFP class or lecture series and almost never direct or indirect comments.

If someone asked me directly how they should determine if they should have another child, I’d probably tell them that one rule of thumb is whether they think having another child would be good if it didn’t make it too hard for them to meet their current obligations. As long as they’re looking at having another child as something good that they’re weighing against other things that are also very good, they’re probably in the ballpark. And then I would probably direct them to our local diocesan NFP office, which in the case of my diocese (and I understand this may not be so everywhere) I believe is likely first to commend them and secondly to explain further while avoiding adding undue burdens.

@Kate, I’ll speak for my own family.  We were the least open to life when we had the most, but we were using natural means plus calendar based NFP.  We felt frugal when we downgraded from cappuccinos at Peets to just black coffee every morning.  We felt frugal when we ate out just once a week.  We felt frugal when we just got two adjoining standard rooms at the resort every year.  We felt frugal that we owned a regular car instead of a Mercedes.  When we were playing with our kids on the beach in front of the resort, a really nice boat would pull up and we’d talk about how maybe next year we would be able to afford to go skiing or fishing. We never felt like we had enough money or could afford the things other people had.  It chafed at us, and we fostered tiny little resentments toward each other.  He toward me, because he felt like we should pull in more than what he made, and therefore, I should get a job,and me toward him because what he made was never good enough.  We weren’t awful people.  We went to mass every Sunday.  We prayed the rosary on occasion.  We loved our children dearly, and suffered to put them in Catholic school.  One day, after our fourth baby was born, I literally SCREAMED at my husband, saying, “I’ll DIE if you get me pregnant again.”  So he decided to lay it to rest, spare my conscience and go out and get a vasectomy.  A very strange thing happened next. Personally, I think it was a small miracle. I was at the doctor’s office a few weeks later, and just happened to speak with a doctor that I wasn’t seeing.  Unbelievably, he told me after some small talk that he’d just performed “the vasectomy” on my husband.  I was horror stricken. There is a lot more to this story, and even thinking about it makes me tremble, but I will sum it up by saying that after many tears shed together,and after speaking to a trusted priest, my husband gladly had it reversed the next week.  We continued to struggle in order to do God’s will LICITLY. Our next child was born a year later.  He is PURE SUNSHINE.  He says “I love you Mommy”, and hugs me every single day of my life.  He is such an incredible and unique human being.  We named him after John Paul the Great.  Faith is a journey of continual conversion.  Selfishness darkens the soul, and can cloak itself in forms we consider virtuous.

Kate, then you should come to my parish.

I know plenty of families who use NFP to have a “small” family, and then say, “thank God we’re done. I don’t know if we could keep going to the cabin if we had many more!” They use NFP. They are young, they are wealthy. If we take their word for it…then they are using NFP to abstain indefinitely because they had a number in mind that would allow them to continue their current lifestyle.

I’m not saying they need to have more kids, or anything. I don’t bring the subject up to them. I’m just letting you know - there do exist people who use NFP who do not have a tender consciences, if we believe what they tell their friends. They could be masking some other reason, and I don’t try to tell them to do anything different because I don’t believe we are close enough for me to broach such a personal subject. But it is possible, I suppose.

Thank you Kate for bringing some sanity to this issue. People who actually use NFP or at least don’t use ABC for moral reasons are on the right track and trying to do God’s will. Period.

Personally, NFP goes off the rails when it becomes mired in the debate about whether or not a couple has a “contraceptive mentality”. It’s so bogus. A good 1/3 of the postings here are by all appearances good people who [a] use NFP struggle with the go/no go on having a child [c] have to deal with friends, relatives, clergy, anonymous fools (me included) on the Internet butting into their faith life based upon what THEY believe without knowing all the contingencies behind the “go/no go” decision.