...about casual anti-Catholicism. He writes:
Like many Catholics, I have found myself in a situation where many of the people in my circles of friendly acquaintance are *not* Catholic or practicing Christians; they are decent people and will certainly go to the wall to help people they like, sympathize with or share principles with, but they are inevitably products of a secular or lapsed-Christian worldview and see nothing wrong with the Culture of Sex and Death that I have to refuse to support or agree with. As a result, what I often find myself enduring in their company is nothing so grand as active persecution (I will not use that word for this in the face of what the Copts are suffering in Egypt), but rather a constant flow of a certain benignly dismissive contempt--none of it personally meant and little of it consciously deliberate, but varying in its effect on me from squirming discomfort to intense pain nonetheless. Yet to call them on their behaviour with enough vehemence to drive home to them the scope of what they're doing would only bewilder them at best, since I honestly believe they genuinely do not grasp why what they are saying would hurt me, or alienate and anger them at worst, since they would feel themselves unjustly retaliated against for an offense they truly consider to be no big deal--especially should I do so in a social setting, ruining everyone's enjoyment for what may be nothing more than, and may certainly seem to *them* like nothing more than, my wounded pride. I don't want such call-downs to take the form of an outburst of anger anyway, as this seems like neither the right Christian spirit nor the most likely to be effective tactic; yet the more insulted, belitted and demeaned I feel, the harder it is to maintain that serenity. (Being white, straight, male and Catholic means I will also have absolutely *no* sympathy from anybody on the grounds of pointing out that they would not speak of any other identifiable group this way.)
What do you do when you want to ask for more consideration from your acquaintances about your beliefs, but to ask gently enough that it doesn't create disruptive backlash and hostility is to speak too lightly to make them grasp your point, yet to demand forcefully enough to make them understand how hurt you are is to speak so strongly it will only anger them? How does one make anti-Catholic colleagues realize they're being anti-Catholic, especially when that anti-Catholicism is something they're not even really conscious of (and you're afraid to find out that they'd actually defend it as a principle if you did make them realize it)?
I think you are right to take the attitude of "Compared to real persecution, this is nothing" and to quash any temptation to feed feelings of anger or bitterness. Mark Twain said, "Never attribute to malice what can be sufficiently explained by stupidity." That line, funny as it is, is not quite fair in this case because your work mates are not stupid (necessarily) but simply oblivious. They've drunk in, as have most Americans, the casual post-Christian anti-Catholicism of American culture and simply regurgitate it as pseudoknowledge that all normal people accept. The trick, therefore, is to introduce them--brightly, cheerfully, and without the stench of victimism--to the fact that most of what they "know" is wrong, that Catholics are remarkably like human beings, and that they achieve this feat, not by perpetually apologizing for their faith ("I mean, I'm Catholic, but I'm not extreme about it and certainly don't go for all that stuff those dusty old bishops say") but by quietly and happily showing how, on a day to day basis, Catholic faith informs your life and makes it more human.
One fine way to begin doing this, of course, is to be visible about your faith, We are an incarnational Church and so there are lots of tchotchkes and knick knacks (holy medals, rosaries, images of Jesus, Mary, saints, etc) you can adorn yourself or your office with to fly your flag. In conservations, you can quietly correct casually bigoted remarks with actual Church teaching with the attitude, not that these people are enemies, but with the happy assumption that, when they find out what the Church actually teaches about X, it's really quite interesting and rich. Also, don't be afraid to make clear the ambiguities and grey areas and I-don't-knows, since the Church is not a Police State where that which is not forbidden is compulsory (as many postmoderns imagine). In short, live out loud a bit and see what the response is.
Generally, the visible presence of Jesus, even in the smallest degree, prompts both fascination and revulsion. Let the Holy Spirit handle the revulsed. It's not your job to fix them. Meanwhile, just quietly speak the truth in love as best you can. You'll be surprised to see that quite a number of people will have their consciousness raised about their former unwitting bigotry once it dawns on them that you are Catholic and take your faith seriously. There's usually not need to get angry and play the victim card. Indeed, the victim card is something I counsel wounded Catholics against playing, because it is usually a worldly weapon of guilt manipulation, not a real appeal to justice. Those addicted weilding it as a meat cleaver to chop all conversation off at the knees and create a climate of Fear of Offense typically wind up creating a climate of resentment against the guilt manipulator. Such people are usually in need of Insensitivity Training, not of kowtowing deference to their hyper-sensitivities. Catholics should not imitate them and become one more grievance group. Jesus doesn't tell his apostles to go into the world with a chip on their shoulder about the injustice of it all. He warns them of persecution and tells them to rejoice. We should take that attitude. Half the fun of being Catholic is of belonging to a weird and subversive subculture that the world, by definition, will never understand. It's like being hipster, only you get to be happy and joyful about it instead of cynical and blase.
Hope that helps!
Comments
Post a Comment
Great answer. The last two beatitudes are are great instruction for this situation. I love your subversive take on this issue. S
tchotchkes- A small piece of worthless crap, a decorative knick knack with little or no purpose,(urban dictionary).
This topic is SO IMPORTANT to me. Thank you for shedding light on this because its so prevalent but like you said we don’t want to be victims about it we just want to be able to ask for the same respect they ask of us with their beliefs. I think you’re right that these people who criticize the faith are not necessarily trying to hurt us. They just think everybody thinks like they do…I try to be visible about my faith on my social networks but I admit it is uncomfortable.
Thank you for this. I encounter this in almost every social gathering I’m at and have struggled to keep my anger and pride in check. Many times, I am drawn into debates by those who are well aware of my Catholicism and want only to push their secular agenda on me. I’m learning to be less defensive but it isn’t easy. I think God puts us in these situations to help us know are faith better.
Thank you so much for this, Mark. Our family has been experiencing upheaval and hurt feelings due to some members marrying into other faiths, resulting in those fallen away relatives trying to “save” us from going to hell as a result of remaining Catholic. Sound familiar? Any advice?
We had a non-religious man visit our home which has a bit of religious pictures… We made no comments about our home and just enjoyed his company. After kids were put in bed, he was walking around our living room looking at this and that picture. He asked all sorts of questions about Jesus and being Christian. A year or two later he and his family were baptized. The pictures and our comfort and love of our faith maybe opened the door for him to inquire about it-maybe a seed was planted or in some way nurtured…and then others continued to nurture…and eventually, they became Christian.
It is great to just be ourselves in our faith (it is a free country after all!!)
I started wearing a crucifix after hearing that a young teenager asked my friend who the naked man on her necklace was!! Some people in our USA have been raised completely and totally without the faith to the point that they don’t even know who Jesus is. We have much to do to evangelize.
“One fine way to begin doing this, of course, is to be visible about your faith”
When out at a restaurant with your family, hold hands and say grace before enjoying your meals.
If out for lunch with colleagues having lunch, bow your head for a moment and silently say grace.
Bob Cratchit:
If “tchotchke” offends you I recommend you a) get some Insensitivity Training stat and b) replace it with some word you are less determined to take offense at such as “doodad”, “trinket”, “thingamajig” or “stuff”. My point is not that such items are “worthless crap” but that they are very small reminders that don’t take up a lot of psychic space, but still function as sublminal reminders to our co-workers of who we are and what we believe.
Debbie:
Exactly!
“if you want to continue to be in *their* circle, park your stupid religion under a basket”.
I will not keep it under a basket.
And I know unbelievers who came across far more logical, neighborly, and civil than what you portray.
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/a-reader-wants-to-know-what-to-do/#ixzz2JIwyzWYu
J. Bentham,
You are actually referenced in the Bible in Matthew 5:11-12.
I would also recommend you read The Last Superstition by Robert Feser, since you seem to enjoy intellectual pursuits.
1. Good balance. The Coptic Christians are being persecuted and although I try to tell my atheist friends who claim merely seeing a cross is persecution…that they have no idea. Thankfully, I have no idea either.
2. I have friends of many colors, genders and beliefs. I rarely make black jokes around my black friends. Too many half truths, stereotypes and I dont always know where boundaries are that they instinctively know from life experience. Same with any other difference. So I speak with….RESPECT. So assuming they know your Catholic, I guess I would expect nothing less. Still, I know exactly what you mean.
J. Bentham,
You’re joking right? Being sarcastic? Presenting a caricature of an atheist?
J., look it up if you really want to know. You are obviously a very literate person.
J - I will never be the last one standing even if I am the last person alive on this Earth because the God I profess to believe in is ALIVE, eternal, and He works in my life in undeniable ways. For me to say I do not believe in God would be like me saying I don’t believe in my family—in both cases - they are right before me.
To witness an entire family that was not religious at all become Christian kind of flies in the face of your comment about Christians becoming extinct. It just isn’t the case.
The 650,000 people that were marching at the March for Life were largely religious and it was the largest crowd I’ve ever seen (and it has been growing each year)...it is going to be hard to convince me that religion and virtue are on the verge of extinction.
On the verge of persecution, yes - extinction, no. As a matter of historical fact, religious persecution tends to grow religion - so I’d say we’re on the edge of a growth spurt. :-)
Statistically, Christianity is growing at a rate of 1.36% each year and tends to grow fastest in areas where there is Christian persecution…
Logically speaking - Big Bang Theory - who lit the spark? LOVE science and Math—the number line is beautiful—points to eternity - in both directions…it helped me to “see” eternity.
If there is no God or religion - why is it so threatening to athiests to put a Cross up at work? If there really were no religion you couldn’t claim that she has any religious articles - could you? So what is the harm in her putting a Cross on her desk. What is it to you?
I am sorry that someone would lose a job because she put a Cross at her desk - that is very unfortunate. Certainly a lack of the tolerance that the secular world seems to think they are promoting.
What an amazing testament to her faith that she’s willing to lose her job because of her love of God. That’s character! Like St. Lawrence - cheerful on the grid iron :-)
I am sorry J. you do not have very many kind words for people of faith and even if athiesm were the Truth - I’d want no part of it - people of faith live in Joy - if there’s no eternity - I’d rather enjoy a temporary life full of joyful hope. As it is - I can live in joy and have every confidence that there will be joy to follow.
Life here can be pure hell—and suffering endless. There is great cruelty.
But it doesn’t spring from God. It springs from our lack of faith in Him and even our hatred for Him. There was no hatred on the March for Life—and I am certain amongst the 650,000 people on the March - many had suffered much - but what a joyful day. HOPE.
Faith in God brings hope out of despair - life out of death. Eternity out of mortality. Yes, it baffles our logic and reason ;-) but does not defy it—we can’t fully understand it - The Cross -with that naked man on it - willing to die to save the murderers who put him on it…that too, baffles logic and reason - but nevertheless - He died to save us and that brings me great joy, awe, and respect - Hmmm. I think I’d put up a Cross at work too—how could I not?
J. Bentham,
I don’t believe that your workplace actually fired someone for putting a cross on her desk. First because it’s illegal, but more importantly because I don’t believe you have a workplace. If I had to guess I’d say you’re between the ages of eleven and fourteen.
“It’s like being hipster, only you get to be happy and joyful about it instead of cynical and blase.” I just LOVE this line - it’s a nice little reminder to look differently at what challenges us, and it does so with a bit of humor. St. Thomas Aquinas would approve. :~D
Mark Shea:
Well now I am offended because you think that *I’m* offended. Or were you really offended because you *thought* I was offended?
Seriously, I saw that UD definition at work this morning and it gave me a chuckle but then I had to quickly get off the blog and back to work. Didn’t have time to add anything of which I already forgot by now. Also, I just now read the UD Side note: “Chotchkie can be pretty, sentimental, or even occasionally useful though it usually breaks easily if useful. If you are having trouble identifying Tchotchke just look around your house or someone else’s and whatever you see that a burgler wouldn’t steal is probably Tchotchke.”
So yeah, my office is a Tchotchke chapel.
Cheers guv’nah
Thanks for a great article, Mark. I have been in the Church for almost 7 years. No previous religion. (50 years old)
It is amazing how fast our world is changing. I can only pray and encourage my fellow brethren to increase their interior life, and knowledge
of the faith. THIS IS A LIFELONG PROCESS! I will continue to do the same.
I am definitely seeing the changes at my workplace, increasingly hostile to Christianity.
Bob:
Couldn’t tell. That’s why I said “if”. I’m glad to hear about the Tchotschke Tchapel. :)
To the enemy no quarter!
Isabel:
“You have heard it said, ‘You shall love you neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, ‘Love your enemies.’”
Do we need to get pansy liberals who say that stuff out of the Church, Isabel?
So I guess threatening the interlocutor with an albino assassin monk is right out.
[To the enemy no quarter!]
Hmm-m… really???
Okay, but tell me Isabel… how about a nickel or a dime?
YOS:
The thing is, threatening people with albino assassin monks is kind of a waste of a good albino assassin monk. It’s like telegraphing you have a royal flush. You just *deploy the monk* and then leave the historians to wonder if the victim died of natural causes.
Nota Bene: Some Catholic theologians question the moral legitmacy of albino monk assassinations in the missionary work of the Church. I think there are Jesuits with a robust theory of mental reservation who have found a way to square it with the fifth commandment. You should check with them.
I like to celebrate feast and Saints days as publicly as possible, as much as possible. For example, on the Feast of St. George, we had a small party at snack time with a pin-the-sword on the dragon. At Valentines, we give out saint cards for St. Valentine as well as Sts. Cyril & Methodius. Mardi Gras is a big one but we are also quite open about fasting in lent. Hopefully, the result of all this partying and feasting is that our friends develop a sense of our Faith as a joyful one.
Also, never let falsehoods about the Church or the Faith slide. A polite “I beg to differ with you…” is all you need to gently, but firmly introduce the truth when you hear a lie.
I always wanted to know how “tchotchke” was spelled…now I know!
Good article!
A polite “I beg to differ with you…” is all you need
Also “Listen, you ignorant nimrod” has its uses.
YOS: This is where the albino assassin is handy. All that jaw jaw is unncessary if you have a curare-tipped needle hidden your Opus Dei ring. One handshake and all that “nimrod” shouting is out the window.
Confederate Papist: Also spelled and pronounced tsatske. But if you really want the flavor of worthless crud rather than inexpensive baubles, don’t go with tchotchke ... chozzerai is better.
Wait ... this is about confronting casual anti-Catholicism, isn’t it? I’ve tried both the quiet “That’s incorrect” and the “ignorant nimrod” approach with equally indifferent success rates. But I still think the quiet approach is better unless and until you’re certain the person is truly a bigot and not merely misinformed. Then, not having access to an albino assassin, I go for verbal coshing.
In 2013, Ash Wednesday is Feb. 13. If you give up candy for Lent, what will you eat to celebrate Valentine’s Day (Feast of St. Cyril and Methodius)?
Making a Sign of the Cross before a sotto voce Grace before meals is a habit of my BW and me at restaurants. I haven’t heard that anyone at nearby tables was offended.
TeaPot562
I am going to try the bold evangelical response. It will look like this: (to person making demeaning comment) Well hey, say what you want about the Catholic Church, but all I can tell you is that going to confession and Mass regularly has transformed my life in such a beautiful way, it’s hard to put it into words.”
@ Jerry Buckamneer
You face a daunting task. Apologists from both sides have been hammering their cases for just about 500 years, with no appreciable headway. Logic and reason are quickly dismissed and easily abused by the passions.
Consider, that to the Protestant, Catholic doctrine will always appear as a confusing melange of random absurdities and assorted blasphemies, all cemented together with institutional corruption. To the Catholic, Protestant doctrine is a cold, minimalist, mathematical formula buttressed by the personality cult of the pastor, the entertainment value of the music, and the cathartic release following the altar call.
Further, I find that instead of quibbling over the nuances of imputed versus imparted grace, that it is far more satisfying to get to the heart of the matter. We cannot hope to agree upon the matter of justification through Christ if we dispute over the very person of Christ.
This is where things get dangerous, eternally so, for the both of us. You see, we are forgiven by the Father because we are ignorant (Lk 23:34). It is one thing to not know of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and entirely another to, with full knowledge, reject Him. The former can and has been excused (1 Pet 3:19), the latter, not so much.
Catholics have long been denounced as idolators, and yet the Catholic says “not so” when confronted by his love of artistically representing the Gospel and lives of the saints. Is it not the same Moses who brought down the Law from Sinai that also was commanded to have cherubim crafted upon the very Ark of the Covenant? Did Moses sin when he called for the making of a brazen serpent? Indeed, it is only when the statue became an idol to the people that it rightly needed to be destroyed. Neither statue nor painting is a god for us, no more than a photograph is a real person. Therefore, to condemn us for this is unjust and false witness.
And yet, not a day goes by that the Catholic Church does not proclaim what would appear as a commonplace thing to be, “my Lord and my God”. The idolators of the past had statues they called gods, some quite beautiful and majestic. Not so for the Catholic. On the contrary, we have, by all appearances, a small disc of bread. It looks like bread, smells like bread, tastes like bread (albeit bland even as bread goes). And yet throughout the world, people go and spend hours adoring this Eucharist as Christ himself.
I am not ignorant of the gravity of the sin of idolatry. If I am wrong, and the bread has not truly become Body and the wine is but a symbol, I shall be the most ashamed of idolators. My shame shall be so terribly great for my idol would have been more pathetic than any statue fashioned of wood, stone or metal. My mortal senses have not been tricked into believing that bread is divine, nor is my mind so feeble to imagine bread to be divine. I would be more ashamed for I have read and heard the numerous scriptural condemnations of idol worship and have done so in full contempt, declaring hundreds of times that bread and wine have become the flesh and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ himself! The prospects for my salvation, therefore, are very bleak indeed, for I would be doubly damned an idolator and a blasphemer - if I am wrong.
But what if I am correct in believing in Transubstantiation? Well, to begin with, the ramifications would be immense. You see, all the Catholic dogma that now seems so scandalous, bizarre, or just plain mad falls together into an internally consistent whole. Mary, the saints, justification, papal authority, all of it wholly depends upon that bread and wine becoming Jesus.
Furthermore, and here is the other end of the wager. If I am right, and I admit to having placed in full confidence the eternal destiny of my soul upon this one truth, then I am no longer an idolator and blasphemer, but rather worshiping in truth. Further, that would place you in the lamentable situation of having rejected the person of Jesus Christ in disbelief. How terrible it would be indeed, if you after hearing my testimony and still rejecting Christ in the Sacrament, that the one verse that underpins all Christian hope, that is John 3:16, would condemn you for not believing in Him.
One of us is wrong, and I pray not to his damnation.
Here in the Philippines, Catholic Church is being heavily persecuted. It hurts me to see my beloved church being hit this way. This article at least pacified my unquiet heart. Thank you.
Please see http://gmane.ws/T8Y7zI to get a view of what I mean.
When I run across a casually anti-catholic comment like that (depends on the comment, and the person) I’ve had some success with the first nine notes of the banjo song from Deliverance. You have to have the right facial expression doing it. It’s like using the nimrod line without words.
TMLutas,
I get it but is an overused stereotype targeting rural Southern folk the best response? Most Hollywood depictions of rural folk in the South are just as ignorant as bigotry towards Catholics.
@ Recusant. Excellent discourse ! Thank you very much ! I would truly enjoy and appreciate other comments from others who have experienced the great Protestant/Catholic divide in their families.
Recusant,
You seem to have an excellent ability to reason, so it’s surprising you conclude that “one of us is wrong”. You overlook the more likely possibility that both of you are wrong.
-
This should be illuminating for the reader in the article. He complains of feeling insulted, belittled and demeaned by non-Catholics. The fact that you both believe that a fellow Christian is condemned to damnation for lack of the sprinkling of water and a few words by a priest, should answer his question.
Zeke,
I may be presuming too much, but I think you may know from Catholic teaching that we do not hold that to be so.
Perhaps Mr. Shea can explain it better.Or you can check out the Catechism.
God bless!
Zeke:
“The fact that you both believe that a fellow Christian is condemned to damnation for lack of the sprinkling of water and a few words by a priest, should answer his question.”
Your casual anti-Catholicism (and, yet again, ignorance of rather elementary Catholic teaching) is showing. The good thief and the Holy Innocents, as well as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were not baptized, yet we have it on very good authority they are not thereby damned. Really. Try to learn a bit before your next “something something baptism something something eternally damned” performance. We are bound by the sacrament of baptism. But God is not bound. He can do as he pleases. Result: We know where the Church is. We do not know where it is not.
@Jerry Buckamneer,
You are most welcome. I was afraid that I had gotten a bit too verbose, and yet I fear that I had not stated enough. I wished to at least make some small effort to show the biblical basis for the Eucharist, but then later decided that you could easily enough find a suitable apologetics website on your own.
@Zeke
I certainly hope that you do not hold such contempt for your food, lest you consume it with such haste and disdain as to suffer from dyspepsia of the stomach as well.
I stand by my statement that “one of us is wrong”, and should you have taken the small effort to ruminate upon how I have chosen those words, it would have dawned upon you that I was silent on whether the other would be right. I am convinced that I am correct, and the hypothetical Fundamentalist Christian is likewise, though certainty cannot be proven on this side of death. As we both share the context of belief in the inerrant revealed truth of the Bible and salvation through Christ, I found it unnecessary to make my case against all comers.
Further, my gambit is not one of wholesale damnation as you would suppose. I made it explicitly clear, risking even to sound pedantic, that it is not ignorance that damns, but rather willful rejection. As most Protestants do not know what (or rather whom) it is that they reject, nor given reason to believe otherwise, and may even be wholly unaware of it, how could they possibly be condemned for it? But in introducing my wager and the risk involved, I remove some of that ignorance, and thus introduce an element of danger for the Protestant that he did not previously suffer.
Lastly, while writing insolently may make you seem like a roaring lion to the ignorant, getting basic Catholic practices wrong on a Catholic website makes you more like a braying ...donkey.
Kathleen & Mark,
I thought I understood Church teaching on this, but I sense from you responses that I am mistaken. My point is that many Catholics are confused, or perhaps embarrassed, about the earnest magisterial caveats to this extra ecclesiam nulla salus business. So please inform me - are faithful schismatic Christians who reject Catholicism bound for eternal punishment, or not?
Zeke:
Here’s my take.
Above all, read Lumen Gentium
Quick and dirty: There is no salvation outside the Church. The thing is, we don’t know where “outside” is and it’s not our job to judge.
Yes, and the Church is the body of Christ. Jesus is the one who saves.
So if we are saved it is because His death on the Cross saved us.
Maybe we know this and maybe we don’t (I agree it is not for us to judge - but God judges the heart - He knows our souls) - maybe God saves us anyways even if we are not completely in the fullness of the Catholic Church—but if we are saved, it is still through Christ and His Mercy that we are saved—whether we know it or not. And the body of Christ is the Church. So we are back to being saved by the Church which is the body of Christ. Jesus is the one who saves….
Zeke,
Thank you so much for your comment & Mr. Shea for his response.I learned a bit more about my Faith, too.
You have a good weekend & God bless.
Mark,
Christian love means leading people to Christ and submitting to the truth He revealed to us even if and when we are persecuted or even put to death. For the grace of receiving divine love we are obligated to love our neighbor for the love of God (not the other way around as you seem to be proposing). Those who persecute Christ in us, neither know God nor love God. It is better to wipe the dust from your feet.
ED,
Neither a nickel nor a dime will do the heretic or persecutor any good. Pray because no amount of anything we can give will do them any good. Do not accommodate a sin against Christ and His Church because you feel sorry for the sinner. Weep for them in prayer and not on a message board that you think will make you seem merciful before others. Again, to the enemy, no quarter!
Isabel:
Good luck with that whole “treat unbelievers as enemies and give them no quarter” plan as your strategy for evangelization. I’m sure you’ll win lots of hearts and minds to Christ with that.
Mark,
Good luck accommodating false religious beliefs thinking you are leading souls to Christ.
I’m sorry. How am I accomodating false religious beliefs exactly? And, since you are the expert here on winning hearts and minds for Christ, can you tell me about all your success leading souls to Christ, Isabel?
So would you call it heretical to say that Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren? Would you call it giving quarter to the enemy to say it is right and salutary to recognize the riches of Christ and virtuous works in the lives of others who are bearing witness to Christ, sometimes even to the shedding of their blood? Because that’s that the Church teaches in the decree on Ecumenism.
[ED, Neither a nickel nor a dime will do the heretic or persecutor any good. Pray because no amount of anything we can give will do them any good.]
Wow… that’s so-o sad. So very sad indeed.
Not even a box of chocolates???
@Isabel,
To begin with, the only true enemy that we have is Satan and his cacophony of devils. Mankind is prone to confusion and error. Certainly, there are many who are enamored with vice, and these are certainly difficult to evangelize, but they must be witnessed to, if only for the sake of our own testimony.
Even so, there are many, some quite vocally anti-Catholic, who are sincere in their love of Jesus, confused as they are. One has only to look at the prominent names of Catholic apologists and read their biographies to know that prayer is best answered with solid witness and a spirit of compassion. We are not necessarily called to harvest the fruit of conversion, merely to plant the seeds of the Gospel. It may take days or years, but we are not helpless.
Mark,
This is a part of what your questioner wrote.
Like many Catholics, I have found myself in a situation where many of the people in my circles of friendly acquaintance are *not* Catholic or practicing Christians; they are decent people and will certainly go to the wall to help people they like, sympathize with or share principles with, but they are inevitably products of a secular or lapsed-Christian worldview and see nothing wrong with the Culture of Sex and Death that I have to refuse to support or agree with.”
These persons are neither Catholic nor Christians and they are people who tolerate evil in their midst. Yet, the poster states that they are decent people who merely support the culture of Sex (and all the abominable crimes that go with it, I presume, like child pornography, prostitution, rape, sex slavery child molestation, the use of women, even their own spouses as objects of sexual pleasure and on and on. The poster then declares that they also tolerate the culture of death in our society which I presume includes the slaughter of millions of children by means of abortion killing, the slaughter of children in their school rooms, the throwing of people onto subway tracks and those common drive by shooting murders often attributed to drug violence. He wants to know what he should do in such social situations and I replied “to the enemy no quarter!”
I used that phrase because I know that these persons are the enemy of the poster’s soul, their company is near occasion of sin for him and it will not be long before he falls prey to their lukewarmness in the face of the most grievous atrocities. The poster already suspects that he is not strong enough to live his faith in the midst of such persons surrounding him almost daily and is trying to find the right way to live his life in the midst of the world and all of it’s sinfulness. I don’t believe the light and the dark can mix. I believe the poster needs to be the light in the dark.
We are not here to make peace with the world but to make war against it. We are the salt of the earth and our business here is to fight as soldiers of Christ . A soldier does have enemies, Mark and the poster is surrounded by them every day. I say, put on your armor, which includes, prayer, fasting, penance, the sacraments and give no quarter to the enemy of God . Words are meaningless to them. Remember our Lord taught the gospel from his own lips for three years and only a mere handful of believers remained at the cross. Words do not convert us, grace converts us.
As for your false religious beliefs, first remember there is no one good but God alone. People who tolerate murder, and any form or sexual misconduct are not decent and they are not good. They are wolves that want to steal us away from the flock and devour us. Certainly, you are aware that millions of Catholics have already been taken and lost, perhaps forever. There is no charity in suggesting your brother be nice to the wolves among us even if only on social occasions.
Recusant,
You said, To begin with, the only true enemy that we have is Satan and his cacophony of devils.”
This is not true. Our enemies are the world, the flesh and the devil.
You said, “Mankind is prone to confusion and error”
Yes this is true. Our reason is imperfect and there are things we can not even know by reason alone. That is why God gave us a divine Revelation and a teacher (the Church) that is perfect.
“Certainly, there are many who are enamored with vice, and these are certainly difficult to evangelize, but they must be witnessed to, if only for the sake of our own testimony.”
God has already given His testimony. We need to live it and that is our witness.
“Even so, there are many, some quite vocally anti-Catholic, who are sincere in their love of Jesus, confused as they are.”
A soul can not love God and hate God at the same time. Those who persecute the Church persecute Christ.
“One has only to look at the prominent names of Catholic apologists and read their biographies to know that prayer is best answered with solid witness and a spirit of compassion.”
The Catholic Faith is a divine grace. It can not be given by people to people. It can only be received by a soul from God.
“We are not necessarily called to harvest the fruit of conversion, merely to plant the seeds of the Gospel. It may take days or years, but we are not helpless.”
Without God, we can do nothing. We truly are helpless even in converting our own souls to holiness and perfection. We are in absolute need of all the graces the Church supplies through the sacraments, and prayer. Words do not convert us, Grace converts us.
Ed,
When St. Paul was persecuting the Church what did the Church do? This is the answer to the posters question.
Isabel:
There is no record of what the Church did when Saul of Tarsus was persecuting it. There is a record of what Jesus said to do with enemies. It turns out he said, “Love your enemies” and not “To the enemy no quarter.” There’s your problem right there.
Mark,
Kindly post my response to you and to Recusant if it was received. As to your comment that there is no record of what the Church did when Saul was persecuting it is a part of Sacred Tradition that the Church was suffering in union with Christ.
I do have a problem with your above response because it seems to me that you are placing the love of one’s enemies or neighbor above and before the love of God. We are to love our enemies for the love of God and not at the expense of it. The original questioner is confused because he is somewhat forced to live in the company of those who tolerate grave sins against God. Here he must decide who his allegiance belongs to first, the sinner or God for he can only truly love the sinner if his love of God and obedience to His law is primary.
He is conflicted because these persons he associates with, hate God’s eternal moral law. They have no respect for it and expect him to tolerate their hatred for what God has declared to be evil. He wants to know how he can love the sinner and remain innocent of offending God at the same time while being in their company. I say he can not. I say to the enemy no quarter. He is obligated to fight the ideas they propose, the intolerance of his religion and the persecution they inflict. The business of the Church is to fight evil not to accommodate or tolerate it. We are not here to leave the world or the sinner in peace but to bring it to the love of God and if the sinner or the world is offended by Gods truth, stated openly so be it. The Church nor her members can have no traffic with evil or error and for the love of God and souls, they can give the enemy no quarter.
My advice to the reader.
For you, this is a near occasion of sin. “Bad company corrupts good morals”.
[Ed, When St. Paul was persecuting the Church what did the Church do?]
Well, Isabel, if my memory serves me correctly… I think I remember (?) reading that the Church would invite Saul over every other Friday night to play Bingo, discuss their religious differences, and eat his favorite snack food—Twinkies.
It seems that Saul developed his taste for Twinkies when he was a young man studying under Gamaliel in Jerusalem. The Church wisely used this difficult to get and very expensive snack (at that time they cost $.25—or a quarter) to sweeten Saul up a bit since he was normally very moody and hot-tempered.
Some say (?) that the Church actually supplied him with an *enormous* bag of fresh Twinkies to take on his famous trip to Damascus.
This seems impossible to actually prove… but at least everyone does agree that he returned much sweeter!!!
Take care Isabel…
The Holy Spirit is definitely nudging the reader to take some action. Life is so exciting when the Holy Spirit is activated :-) Prayer can never hurt - I would start there. Pray a Hail Mary or a Memorare each time someone says or does something that is inappropriate. Pray for God to give words of wisdom. Trust the Holy Spirit to help discern the right course of action.
TRUST that God does work in all hearts. Love your neighbors. What would you want someone to say to you if you were in their shoes? How would you want to be corrected or treated? God is loving and merciful. He may be increasing the discomfort to motivate the reader to say something. Until the point when I am able to speak out, I resort to prayer. When I speak before praying, I make a mess of things…so prayer is always a good place to start…prayers for discernment, conversion, for the right words to say, etc.
Mark,
Yes, your memory is probably serving you well.
Still, you are failing to understand that we love the sinner for the love of God and not the other way around.These souls have no love of God or His eternal moral law. To love our neighbor, we have to act for his good. The reader is therefore going to have to seriously offend the company he is keeping for the love of Gods Commandments which he is obligated to obey. He is not willing to go that far so he is not yet capable of loving God or neighbor.
@Isabel
You are correct inasmuch that we must contend with the flesh and the world as well as Satan. Where you fail is that neither the flesh nor the world are our enemies in the sense that we are free to hate them.
The flesh needs correction and discipline, even sternly so, but it is not to be hated as the Manichean heretics would have it.
The world is filled with evil, and those that are worldly are foremost in evil, and yet we are not called to burn the world that it may die, nor are we to shrink from it as cowards, nor abandon it like spoiled brats. Rather, we are to evangelize to every corner of it.
Now for the matter at hand, for you have erred by presuming to judge objectively the hearts of men, and worse yet, of men still living. You do not know how many breaths are allotted to yourself, let alone your brother, and yet you would say that one or another be damned because he spoken ignorantly in a certain moment in time.
Have you not read the gospels dear woman? Even a man on the day of his own death, who uttered blasphemies against Jesus Christ, managed to win paradise in his contrition.
This whole topic is not about accommodating sin, rather how to best dispel the lies that many within and without the Church have been deceived by. Had you more sense than bitterness within you, you would have noticed this. Instead you have made a perfect dis-invitation to those outside the Faith with your shrill screed.
Recusant,
You said, Where you fail is that neither the flesh nor the world are our enemies in the sense that we are free to hate them. “
You are wrong in that I never said we are free to hate them. Therefore your accusation of associating me with the Manichean Heritics is wrong as well You should be more careful in your judgements.
R: ” The world is filled with evil, and those that are worldly are foremost in evil, and yet we are not called to burn the world that it may die, nor are we to shrink from it as cowards, nor abandon it like spoiled brats. Rather, we are to evangelize to every corner of it.
Someone once said, “If necessary, use words”. It is far better never to speak but to be a living example of the Catholic faith in a world corrupted by lies. In the original questioners example he states: “but they are inevitably products of a secular or lapsed-Christian worldview and see nothing wrong with the Culture of Sex and Death that I have to refuse to support or agree with. As a result, what I often find myself enduring in their company is nothing so grand as active persecution’”.
His statement leads me to believe these persons are haters of the law of God and as such hate even God himself since if you love God, you will keep His commandments or at least acknowledge that they are right and good even if we fail to live up to them perfectly as we should. The questioner then tells us he endures this hatred of God almost on a daily basis. Yet we know from Sacred Tradition that we are not to merely endure the hatred of God in our midst but to fight against it. This is why Jesus brought a sword and not peace. Our business as faithful Catholics is to fight first for the love of God and then for souls for love of Him. The questioner is doing neither showing he is lukewarm regarding the Love of God and an enemy of souls who hate him since he refuses to fight for the love God has for them.
Perhaps I am in error. I know that Jesus said that “If you love me, you will keep my Commandments. It therefore follows that these souls do not love Him. It is just a simple fact. Also, I know that it is impossible to love a soul if one does not love God because we can only love them FOR the love of God. LIberals often get this so confused and wind up trying over and over again to turn our Lord into a social worker or as Bishop Sheen used to say, a sort of “Bread King”.
The statement was made that these souls see nothing wrong with the culture of Sex or Death. If this statement is a fact, these souls are in a state of sin. They need to repent, confess, do penance and amend their lives. They are in grave need of souls that are not willing to merely put up with them but to save then in union with Christ. The questioner if so called should do these things as well for their behalf. He should pray, go to Daily Mass, fast, and do penance. He should know that persecution is a promise Our Lord has made certain will always be kept. He should speak out and if they refuse the graces he wins for them, he should wipe the dust from his feet. It is true that bad company does corrupt good morals and we can see millions of once faithful Catholics now on the wide road to perdition. I would not be able to remain luke warm in such a setting.
I did not miss the point of the post. The questioner was however accommodating sin and that took precedence over correcting it. The fact remains that you thought it possible to love the sinner without loving God. This is false charity and a sin as well.
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/a-reader-wants-to-know-what-to-do#ixzz2KnmEmCkK
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/a-reader-wants-to-know-what-to-do#ixzz2KnlSutJC
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/a-reader-wants-to-know-what-to-do#ixzz2KnkbQrve
“...a constant flow of a certain benignly dismissive contempt—none of it personally meant and little of it consciously deliberate, but varying in its effect on me from squirming discomfort to intense pain nonetheless.”
—-
## No doubt a great many non-Catholics, Christian and not, could say pretty much what this writer says about Catholic attitudes to what they hold dear. At least he has a sense of proportion, and doesn’t confuse the pain he describes with persecution - unlike so many Christians. In a free society of many religions & none, there are going to be people who don’t have much respect for the convictions of others.
Happy Valentine’s day Isabel, you must be a riot at parties.
Yet I’m a braying donkey…..
It is St. Valentines Day. It is also Lent. Have fun at your parties!
Post a Comment
By submitting this form, you give The National Catholic Register permission to publish this comment. Comments will be published at our discretion, and may be edited for clarity and length. For best formatting, please limit your response to one paragraph and don't hit "enter" to force line breaks.