The Womam spoke of in Genesis is the same Woman spoken of in the Book of the Apocalipse. In Genesis God says, “I will put enmity between you and the Woman…She will crush your head…” In the Book of the Apocalipse It speaks of the Woman, at the end of the same Chapter it says, “The offspring of the woman are those who obey Christs Commands”. When Our Lady appeared to St. Juan Diego she said, “I am she who crushes the head of the serpant”. The Spaniards only thought that the Aztecs could not pronounce the exact words and the Aztecs thought the Spaniards could not pronounce the Aztec words. So today we know Our Lady in Mexico as Our Lady of Guadalupe. When she said her name, “Guadalupe” in the Aztec language means, “I am she who crushes the head of the serpant”. Much has been discovered from the miraculous image of our Lady of Gudalupe. It seems each year something new is discoved about the miraculous image of our Lady.

“We saw a woman more brilliant than the sun.”  This was the first sentence spoken by ten year old Lucia, when questioned by her Parish priest at Fatima.  Little Jacinta told her mother, “She was so brilliant we could hardly look at her.”  Then there is the miracle of the sun, worked by Our Lady at Fatima, so that all may believe.

Our Lady of Guadalupe is of course the same person as Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima.  Pope Benedict will of course find in Guadalupe a more benign answer.  Our Lady at Fatima gave the Popes a very specific commission from God, which they have chosen to ignore:  “God wishes to establish in the world, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”

Sr. Lucia of Fatima, in her last published writings, indicated “we were living in the times of the Apocalypse covered by chapters 8-13.”  She advised everyone to study these chapters with this in minde. Who can deny that we are seeing the effects of the “great apostasy” in our own families and in formerly Catholic nations? 

While all the interpretations above are true, the time comes in prophecy when it is fulfilled not only figuratively, but literally.  At the time of the penultimate or last antichrist (there have been several in history, each more evil than the last) We will perhaps see the church (the woman) elect a reforming pope (male child) who will be martyred in office (caught up to heaven). Afterwards what remains of the college of cardinals would be evacuated from a destroyed Rome to foreign parts in two airplanes (wings of the eagle) to survive widespread persecution in exile.

“a destroyed Rome”. Our Lady of LaSalette prophesized the destruction of Rome. In another approved apparition she told the seer, “If I give a prophecy and it does not happen, it is because men listened to me and reformed their lives.” I believe that the time for the destruction of Rome has passed, Rome has been spared. There is a famous picture of Ven. Pope Pius Xll with arms outstreched in the form of the Cross begging God to spare the City of Rome. This was during WW2 during the heavy bombing of Rome. The citizens of the City heeded the Holy Father and did their best to save the lives of Jews. This could be the reason the allies halted the bombing of Rome in an instant. God spared the Eternal City because men did good.

The Pope’s certainly have been attentive to Fatima. Even though Fatima comes under “Private Revelation” in which no one is obligated to believe in. Ven. Pius Xll attempted the Consecration but it was not accepted by Heaven. He was also known as the Pope of Fatima as Our Lady showed him the miracle of the sun twice. In the Missal of Pope Paul Vl the Feast of the Immaculate Heart of Mary was changed from Aug, 22 to the month of June, the day right after the Solemnity of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. This was in response to Our Lady who said that God willed that the Sacred Heart of Jesus and that of her Immacualte Heart be honored together. Bl. John Paul ll in a most stunning manner made the Consecration on March 25, 1984, Solemnity of the Incarnation. Sister Maria Lucia of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart made it clear that this consecration was accepted by Heaven. It is said that she suffered a great deal because after the Consecration of 1984, petitions came pouring in to the St. Teresa Carmelite Convent in Coimbra, asking for the consecration to be done, after it had already been made. These people caused her so much to suffer that her Superior ordered that no such petitions even as much as be allowed in the Convent. Sister Lucia’s Superior could no longer bear to see her suffering from the cruelty of such people.

Please spare God and us your editing of the “word of the Lord”.  Intentions good?  Well, possibly, but the (!@#$%)of Babylon is sadly NOT the word of the Lord, it is your non-word.  Please don’t protect the little ones from God’s word.  The !@#$% of Babylon is what God inspired St.John to write and St. John did.  The road to (!@##) is paved with good intentions.  Please continue your otherwise good work.

charles: As you may have noted from the change to your own post, the replacement of the word !@#$% is not something within my control. It’s handled on the system level. I was as surprised to see it changed as you.

Please God spare those in invincible ignorance, forgive those for piercing the Heart of your Immaculate Mother, by their ingratitude and blasphemies. Oh my Jesus Forgive us our sins, and save us from the fires of hell. Especialy those most in need of thy Mercy.
EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS!!!  AMEN!

The idea that Fatima is a private revelation that nobody has to believe in, is the Modernist’s big lie.

Stefano,

The last public revelation is the Book of Revelation. Nothing since can be seen as public revelation.

Private revelation is just that. Approval by the Church only means one may believe in Fatima or any other approved apparitions but this is not required as is acceptance of dogma or doctrine. Nothing which comes from private revelation rises to the level of doctrine or dogma.

Please explain your claim that we are required to believe in private revelations approved by the Church. That does not comport with the reality over the centuries.

Stefano, The Traditional teaching of the Church is as Phil says. If a private revelation contradicts any dogma of the faith, the Church then immediatly condemns it. There can be no new dogmas, this is against Tradition. Ven. Pius Xll said that Fatima is a reaffirmation of the Gospels. The purity of the Fatima apparitions is so important that the Popes have believed them and acted on it. I think the only other private revelation that the Church obeyed was that of Jesus King of Mercy to St. Sister Faustina.

Our Lady of the Rosary came to Fatima with a message for the Pope that did not contradict any dogmas and has been officially approved by the Church.  The Popes are free to ignore the message in the sense that they have chosen to ignore it, but the Church is a former shadow of itself and numerous souls have been lost as a result.  It would be much wiser for Pope Benedict to forget about ecumenism and establish devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary throughout the world.

Since, the Blessed Mother was without sin as she gave birth to Jesus, a child without sin, then she should not have suffered the same labor pains that were the consequence of original sin.

Since the Woman in revelation is suffering in her labor it can be surmised that she is giving birth to those burdened with sin.

For sinners to be born again in Christ we need a Mother.

The Dragon/Satan is attempting to devour Christians prior to them being “caught up” in Christ and being reunited with God completely.

The Blessed Mother and the Catholic Church are United. Mary was there at the formation of the Church. It was her spouse, The Holy Ghost, the came over Christ’s disciples at Pentacost. Mary is the mother of the Church.

I don’t think this is difficult.  Seems clear to me there is only one explanation that screams out from Genesis.  “The Woman” is Israel.  The male son is Jesus, came from “her”.  Clothed with the sun is light/truth.

All over the Old Testament, God the Father speaks of Israel as a woman, like in Hosea.  “The Church” is the Bride of Christ, not the woman.

With due respect to the Blessed Mother, Mary is not in the equasion at all, in Revelation.  Jesus does not become a baby again.  Rather, Jesus is Groom, reigning; his Bride, the Church, then joins Him, forever.

There will be many in Israel that will be part of “The Church”, and Mary is part of the Church too w/ all those accepting Jesus as Lord & Savior.  No acceptance?  Not in the Church. 

This is so clear and easy to understand.  I think what makes it difficult is the apparitions approved from the 18th and 19th centuries, that cause confusion.  We look at a drawing of our lady of Guadalupe, and think, it must mean her.  I came from an Evangelical Christian background, perhaps I’m not as influenced or as entrenched in tradition, as others.

@Jon Capen:  [“For sinners to be born again in Christ we need a Mother.”]  Jon, that is invented theology on your part.  If what you say is true, then Jesus forgot to tell Nicodemus.  He said a man “must be born of the Spirit”—He did not say of a woman.  Jesus said “I” will put my Spirit in you” —not via Mary.  Seems the Lord is perfectly capable of achieving His purpose by Himself without any help.

In “The Apocalypse - Letter by Letter” by Steven Paul, the author decodes this passage and shows it represents the Church at a specific moment in time, a time of crisis. And it is shown that many of the events leading up to this time have already occurred. NOBODY has proven this analysis wrong. The symbolic woman is Mary onl by allusion and not fact. Mary is the mother of the Church, but she is not the woman.

Mary was free from the curse in original sin. So why would she be in “great travail to give birth”?

I believe this is a weighted matter,  Scripture is correctly interpreted in these 4 manners.  First literally: Secondly allegory:  thirdly in the present: Fourthly in the prophetic.  This mean Mary in the literal interpretation of this scripture.  With out Mary, the new Eve,  no Jesus in the flesh, No Jesus in flesh no church established at the last supper and no acceptable salvation on the cross by Jesus the new Adam.  So the church and Israel are only an allegory or dependent appendage necessarily attached to the existence and Queenship of Mary. Mary is operating as a principle figure in the economy of salvation.

God can neither deceive nor contradict Himself. His word is true and meaningful. Throughout the Bible God uses symbolic language like branch, reed, star, mountain, sun, moon, sash, sandal, hairs and head to symbolize specific and cocrete meanings. By the time you get to Jonh’s vision, everything you need to know about the woman has been revealed to you. You just have to let God speak for himself. In the book I referenced, it all comes together leaving no doubt about the woman and the mission she must fulfill. The time is coming soon.

The Woman in the Apocalypse is in fact Mary. If one notices in the sacred liturgy on the Feasts and Solemnities of Mary, these readings are always from this vision of St. John. On the grand Feasts that celebrate the Church itself, like Pentecost this part is never used. I believe the Church has made clear who the Woman is. The Jews of old knew God had promised a Messiah, they also knew God had promised an actual Woman. When a Jew addressed his Mother as Woman, he was giving her a great honor. It was as if he were saying to his mother, you are so great you could be the Woman whom God has promised us. In Scripture Christ several times addresses his Most Holy Mother as “Woman”. The great Mystics of the Church were given to understand that the Woman in the Apocalypse is in fact Mary. The Ven. Mary of Agreda was given by our Lady the understanding of all the symbols in this vision of St. John. Guadalupe is not what Our Lady called herself in Mexico. To the Spaniards thats what it sounded like, but St. Juan Diego was given by Our Lady her name in the Aztec language which literaly means, “I am She who crushes the head of the serpant”. Biblical scholars in modern times for some reason do not want to say that the Woman in the Apocalypse is Mary Most Holy. But it is only too clear for those who love her that she in fact is the “Woman”.

I also refer readers to most version of the Douay-Rheims Bible footnotes for Apoc. Chapter 12. Up until the late 20 th century it stated emphatically that the woman is the Church and only by allusion, Mary. Definitively associating the woman with Mary is a very modern change and one that. Will cause the faithful.uk to miss the sign. It is chronologically out of place as John says the sign came (comes) in the time of “future things”. Try studying a little with a mind open to intent and not lazy comparisons of virgin to virgin and jumping to a conclusion.

A priest told me, “The devil knows the Bible better than any human being. One can make the Bible mean anything they want.” Which is why St. Peter warns against private interpretation. Another thought came to mind. When St. Catherine Laboure had the visions of our Lady, Our Lady told her to have a Medal struck according to the vision she would see. The vision was of a Woman brighter than the sun, with 12 stars surrounding her. Around the image were the words, “Oh Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee.” Such similarities to the Apocolypse. Hum!!

Yes, the Mother of the Church embraces her and nourishes her, drawing her children near. But she is not the Church. In fact “conceived without sin” proves my point. She did not endure the curse of pain of childbirth and nowhere does it say she did. But the Church suffers to elect her Popes in the days of great travail and one will be assassinated. Indeed, one almost was already. The time is drawing near for the Great Sign.

The book of the Apocalypse was written in symbolic language. One Pope assasinated? There are several Popes who were martyred, the first was St. Peter. One must be careful not to tamper in a fundamentalist manner with a book from Scripture, as St. Peter warns we could to it to our own destruction. The Apocalypse cannot be interpreted literaly. Our Lady certainly was not literaly wear the actual sun as clothing. She certainly does not stand on the planet we know as the moon. She does not literaly run after a snake in order to stomp on its head with the hope of not missing. Her crown are not 12 suns on her head. Mary Most Holy did not literaly suffer the pangs of childbirth, nor was she carried off to the Sahara or Mojave dessert. satan certainly did not try to receive Holy Communion by attempting to eat the Body and Drink the Blood of Christ. Modern biblical scholars have led so many astray. One only need to look at the Miraculous Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe to know that the Apocalypse when speaking of the Woman clother with the sun, the moon under her feet, is the Queen of Heaven herself. God miraculously imprinted this actual photo of Our Lady on the Tilma of St. Juan Diego. Could God have misinterpreted the Apocalypse?

Angelo wrote:
“Which is why St. Peter warns against private interpretation.  Another thought came to mind. When St. Catherine Laboure had the visions of our Lady, Our Lady told her to have a Medal struck according to the vision she would see..”

I’ve read the above comment several times, asking myself how come St. Peter didn’t have the last word? If Angelo’s first sentence was HEEDED by everyone, St. Catherine Laboure’s vision would have been kept to herself and not used to change the church.

The reason I say this is because the only reason we Catholics today are discussing what the Blessed Mother looked like in Guadalupe, is because of another private vision, to Juan Diego. Another vision that changed the church, and greatly. 

Did Roman Catholics in 500 AD see Mary clothed like the woman described in Revelation?  How about in 1000 AD?  In 1500 AD? No. So every Christian went without this special knowlege right up until the Virgin of Guadalupe appeared in a private vision to someone? Sounds fishy to me.

Further, it squares with what St. Peter warned us, how?  It’s already been pointed out that bishops err, clergymen err.  Many traditionalists claim Vatican II was in err.  Why wouldn’t St. Peter have the last word?

The “woman” is national Israel, not Mary.  The dragon is at war with the remnant (believing Israel) —those Jewish believers and grafted in Gentiles having faith in Yeshua Ha Mashiach (Jesus, the Christ).

New Observer: Amen and Amen!  Thank you, for summing it up so succinctly.

PROTESTANT REVOLUTION:  It is very interesting to note that the Mexicans (formerly Aztecs) were converted to the Catholic religion by the Guadalupe image at the exact time Catholics in Europe were leaving the faith for Lutheranism.  Nine million converted in the initial years of the arrival of the miraculous image.  FRENCH REVOLUTION:  Then Jesus wishing to show His love to the eldest Catholic country, approached the French King under the title and image of the Sacred Heart of Jesus.  The French Kings ignored it.  After exactly one hundred years to the day the offer was made, the Monarchy was abolished and the French Revolution laid waste to Europe.  MODERNIST REVOLUTION:  At Fatima, Our Lady of the Rosary came as a last resort with the request that the Pope establish in the world, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  This request has been ignored and the world is experiencing a catastrophic global loss of faith.  The apocalypse is unfolding right before our eyes.  Our Lady’s great promise is that when things seem hopless and paralyzed, then a complete restoration will take place.  We are close to that time right now!

AFAICS, the WCWTS of Rev.12 is the New Jerusalem, which is seen again near the end of the book, “coming down from heaven dressed like a bride for the bridegroom”. The Woman of 12 is set over against the !@#$% of 17, the New Jerusalem against the “woman drunk with the blood of the saints”. As the !@#$% is a city, it is hard to believe the Woman is not a city. Contrasts like this are of great importance in conveying the meaning of the book; they are part of its structure. 

!@#$% = P.r.o.s.t.i.t.u.t.e. - the censoring software objects to the use of words that were good enough for St.John.

.How few understand that the book of revelations is a Mass.  Everything about Revelations is structured as a mass.  That tremendous mass is taking place over the whole spectrum of Christian salvation history. ( that is inside and outside of linear time)  As those of you who are properly catechized realize Holy Mass takes place both in Heaven and on earth reuniting the rife between the natural and supernatural caused by Adam and Eve.  Heaven is called the Beatific Vision,  something referred to as the eternal now.  In God’s Heavenly presence there is only now not linear time.  Remember God said “I am the Alpha and the Omega”.  Linear time is a Gift to man kind to fulfill God’s Natural designs.  The Book of Revelations is depicting the heavenly and earthly events and struggles against evil and death through the power of the Holy Mass.  Revelations also shows hell’s lake if fire where Satan and the wicked will be chained to their place of reward.  That chain binding evil into the lake of fire is the cumulative effect of the Most Holy Rosary.  The angelic figure going down and chaining Satan into the Lake of fire is none other than our Lady Mary the woman clothed in the sun in.  The subject of this blog about Revelations 12
Mary applies the supernatural merit of trillions of Rosary said and by the power God chains wickedness in it final resting place.  I suggest that each of you obtain and copy of ” where we got the first Maas” that way you may become better acquainted with an understanding of the mass.  Then you will recognize more easily what Revelations is about.  Trying to reduce the Book of revelations to cook book outline of the Battle of Armageddon diminishes the biblical revelations to a tiny fraction of its profound eternal width and Breath.
Yours’ in J&M
Thomas Stulc

@Thomas Stulc:  No doubt the Four Horseman appear somewhere between the 2nd Collection and the Offertory.

Terah James, One of our former Parish Priets’s spoke in a sermon about the book of the Apocalypse. He said it was written in a symbolic manner, and that the Jews at the time of St. John understood all the symbolism of it. Who has said that Christians in the last 2000 years did not recognize The Woman as being Mary Mother of God? I have never heard that Mary was understood to be The Woman of the Apocalypse only after the apparitions to St. Juan Diego. These apparitions to St. Juan Diego certainly falls under private revelation. But the fact that a permanent visible sign of these apparitions has been left for all humanity is astonishing. The image of our Lady of Guadalupe was not painted by human hands, it was miraculously imprinted before the very eyes of the first Bishop of Mexico on the tilma of St. Juan Diego. I have read some interesting books about the image itself. The image has been studied by men of every profession, scientists, photographers, believers, non believers ect… The image baffles the mind. I call it a million miracles in one. Not too long ago, by some advanced modern technology a Fetus was discovered in the womb of Our Lady on the image. What else does this miraculous image have that we don’t know yet.

@Angelo:  [“and that the Jews at the time of St. John understood all the symbolism of it.”]  ???  Excuse me ???  John himself —the revelator of the imagery presented at Patmos and (a Jew “at that time”) didn’t even understand it.

New Observer, Who told you St. John did not understand what he wrote? I was going by what our learned Pastor was teaching us. And if anyone says that St. John did not understand what he wrote, did he invent that silly notion himself? What does he have to back up his notion?

@Angelo:  The consistency and repetition of “And I saw” indicates a panorama and progression of imagery quickly passing before John as he is writing with no time to stop, ponder, refelct and understand the symbolism of what you say John and all “Jews at that time understood.”

@Angelo:  The “woman”—is not Mary.  The “woman” is national Israel.

New Observer, Who said St. John was writing as the visions were happening? “With no time to stop, ponder, reflect…” How could he see visions and write at the same time? Maybe he wrote the Apocalypse after the visions ended. Maybe he reflected first, then wrote. Remember he had the direct guidance of the Holy Ghost. Who said the Woman was national Israel? Your immagination holds no water! Your immagination is beggining to border on the rediculous.

I’ve never heard the “fetus” rumor, but the black tassel around Our Lady’s hands signifies pregnancy.  I think that is as far as it goes.  The eyes have reflected in them, everyone who was in the room at the time of the miracle.  Non-believers have tried putting a powerful bomb right in front of the image.  The blast bent an iron crucifix in half, but the image remained un-damaged.  Ordinarily the material under the image decays in about twenty years and here we are 500 years later.

@Angelo:  For John to witness such imagery and recall in vivid and complex detail *after the fact* and without any writing as the panorama is unfolding remains unlikely.  Furthermore, the parallel and symbolism refers to the flight of the Hebrews in Exodus.  Satan sending a “flood”
is Pharaoh’s army in pursuit of the “woman” (national Israel)—and the Earth “swallowed up the flood” refers to Pharaoh’s army destroyed in the Red Sea.  The Sea Monster (called Leviathan in Hebrew tradition) is Satan who has the power to attack the “woman”—which is Israel.  The dragon’s hostility is directed at the woman’s (Israel) children.  And “her seed” are the remnant of Israel described in the Seventieth week in the Book of the prophet Daniel.  Of note is that the term “seed” in biblical writing is always associated with men and not women.  In this instance, however, “her seed” refers to Christ as “the seed” of the woman (Israel).  Refer to Galations 3:16 and Genesis 3:15.

Well done, New Observer!  I appreciate you’ve cross-referenced the New Testament with the Old Testament, making connections that are so easy to follow, and what you wrote makes sense.

Didn’t Jesus say something like, “There will be no more signs other than the sign of Jonah”, and the sign of Jonah was when He was in the grave for three days, and resurrected. 

Why would Jesus Himself say there will be “no more signs” then in later centuries, up to and including the 21st century, provide signs? 

This morning, on Catholic radio, I heard a mention of the Saint of the Day, in which it was said “legends” prevailed about all he did, and the faithful passed on the traditions of his exploits to succeeding generations, right up to today, when we in the Year 2012, hear how he tamed dragons and made pets out of them. 

So I wonder how much of what we Catholics are taught today is the result of “legend”, handed down by well-meaning people, but those that refuse to believe and understand the Old Testament and how it relates to the New.  Instead, people clammor for some “NEW” thing, some “NEW” doctrine, some “NEW” signs and wonders.  They clammor for “secrets” & more knowlege.

What God already revealed to us, is old news. It’s disregarded, reminding me of the Rich Man and Lazarus, when Father Abraham told the rich man his brothers had “Moses and the Prophets” to READ and HEED, and no one will be coming from the dead to warn them to LISTEN UP.

The fetus rumor is likely just that - another “legend”.  Jesus is Lord, King and GROWN UP now.  Jesus is not an infant anymore.

Stefano wrote, “At Fatima, Our Lady of the Rosary came as a last resort with the request that the Pope establish in the world, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”

How does the above honor Jesus?  Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary?
Even the Holy Spirit points to Jesus.

How come there are often apparitions only AFTER Vatican discussion of issues regarding Mary?  Then she comes and confirms what is being discussed.  I smell a rat about the timing of that.
*********************************
Thomas Stulc: Regarding Revelation and the Mass - I can see how the Book of Revelation is a Heavenly Liturgical Worship of Jesus and our Triune Godhead, by the Communion of the Saints.  I like to picture myself joining in with that ONE liturgical worship that is going on constantly, in Heaven and throughout the world, everywhere the Name of Jesus is honored and worshipped.  It is all about Jesus, our Lord and Savior. 

@ Terah james:  “Even the Holy Spirit points to Jesus.  How come there are often apparitions only AFTER Vatican discussion of issues regarding Mary?  Then she comes and confirms what is being discussed.  I smell a rat about the timing of that.”

Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary has been offered to the world as a last resort.  The apocalyptic apparitions at Fatima, with its miracle of the sun, are unprecedented in salvation history.  The Popes have ignored “this moment”, but the average believer can still embrace this devotion and take advantage of the “great promise” of Our Lady of the Rosary:  “Those souls will be cherished by God, as flowers placed by me to adorn His throne.”

@Stefano [“The Popes have ignored “this moment”, but the average believer can still embrace this devotion and take advantage of the “great promise” of Our Lady of the Rosary.”]  That’s interesting.  The Popes have dismissed this understanding—but you haven’t?  The church does not allow you to have your own “private” interpretation.

@Stephano [“The apocalyptic apparitions at Fatima, with its miracle of the sun, are unprecedented in salvation history.”]  Your assertion is incorrect.  The woman (Israel) is important because she is clothed with the sun.  Israel wears the crown of 12 stars and stands upon the moon.  Joseph’s dream described in Genesis 37 aligns with Revelation 12.  Joseph’s father (Jacob) is the “sun.”  His mother (Rachel) is the “moon” and the eleven stars are Joseph’s brothers who sold him to the Midianite traders before Potiphar bought him.  The brothers are the same of whom Joseph relates his dream to Jacob regarding whom would bow down to him—just as they eventually did in Egypt.  Thus, the woman (Israel) is clear.  Israel is exaulted among the sun (Jacob), the moon (Rachel) and the stars (Joseph’s brothers).  Collectively the 12 stars are Jacob’s sons signifying the 12 tribes of Israel.  This “woman” (Israel) will give birth to a child—the one “who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron” is futher prophisized in Psalms 2:9 that the “child is a King—the Son of God.”  Of further importance is that God protects the woman (Israel) for 3-1/2 years in Revelation which are the Jewish remnant during the period of the anti-Christ.

@ New Observer:  “The Popes have dismissed this understanding—but you haven’t?”

Nice try, but I didn’t use those words.  The Popes have missed the moment by not granting God’s wish to establish devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary throughout the world.  But “Whoever embraces this devotion, I promise salvation.  Those souls will be cherished by God as flowers placed by me, to adorn His throne.  That deal is too good to pass up with the “private revelation” cop out excuse.

@Stefano:  [“The Popes have missed the moment by not granting God’s wish to establish devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary throughout the world.”]  Why have these popes missed the moment,—and for so long?  Seems (not just one pope but many) their collective understanding is different from yours.

When you get to Heaven you better rent a telescope because I’ll be in the front row, with a large group, under one banner which reads, “Fatima Was Not A Private Revelation”, and another that states, “How Silly To Ignore The Words of Your Heavenly Mother, Be You Pope or Peasant.”

Stefano - I love it that you KNOW you are going to Heaven.  Most Catholics I know “hope” they’re going to Heaven.  Or they’re banking on there being a Purgatory.  It was great to read your mention about seeing New Observer there too.  I’m glad I read this blog!  Thanks for the lift.

@new observer,  the 4 horsemen of the apoycllsyt are roaming the earth as we speak, watch out!  your stepping in their trail mix,

oops a typo   sorry APOCALYPSE

Fatima a private revelation.  Hardly !!!! hundreds of thousands attending the miracle of the sun and their soaking wet cloths dried out by the spinning sun as it approached the people.  all this documented by secular authorities.  Perhaps the greatest miracles since the parting of the
Red Sea   PUBLIC AS IT GETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Tom Stulc:  Your post was [“The Book of Revelations is depicting the heavenly and earthly events and struggles against evil and death through the power of the Holy Mass.”]  However, there are several errors in the entirety of your post.

Yours is an interesting concept, but has no merit.

1.  In your post, you say “In God’s Heavenly presence there is only now not linear time.”

The problem with that statement is that Revelation describes events taking place in sequence.  For example, the phrase “after these things” occurs eight times. 

In chapter 5 we read, “And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the [fn]book or to look into it.”

In 6:1 the Lamb breaks the seal.  Clearly, there is sequence.  Further, what he breaks is the first of seven seals - more sequence.

How can one cast a crown before the throne unless there is linear sequencing of events (4:10).  If someone is going to sing a new song, all the words don’t occur at the same time.  The tree of life yields its fruit each month (22:2).

Those are just a few examples indicating that there is sequence in heaven.  Everything is not “now.”

2.  As a side point you should recognize that this book is NOT the book of “Revelations.”  It is the “Revelation” of Jesus Christ.  Not the mass nor Mary.

3.  “That chain binding evil into the lake of fire is the cumulative effect of the Most Holy Rosary”: No Proof Whatsoever.

4.  “The angelic figure going down and chaining Satan into the Lake of fire is none other than our Lady Mary the woman clothed in the sun in.”  No Proof Whatsoever.  In fact, the woman in Revelation 12 is a reference to Israel, not Mary. 

Alternate View: The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.  That’s why the passage begins by alluding to Joseph’s dream: the sun, moon and stars.  It’s also why the passage speaks of the 3 and one-half year period.

5.  “Mary applies the supernatural merit of trillions of Rosary said and by the
power God chains wickedness in it final resting place.”  No Proof Whatsoever.

    Dear New Observer, How long have you been an apostate fallen away Catholic? and most likely a member of the that antichrist cult Jehovah Witnesses.
Of course there is error in what I wrote. In order to keep me humble God made me prone to typo’s. So I’m sure my writings have syntax errors etc. I acknowledge my short comings. As far as what was written by me there is no error of truth what so ever in that body of information. As you would know a short blog forum is unsuited to teach a college level course on the Book of Revelations. As such my little comments are but a general and not an exhaustive detailed explanation of Revelations. You say how do we prove that the angelic form going down into the pit to chain Satan is Mary with merits from countless rosaries. Do you seriously think God sent a Nation ( Israel) and not a singular agent an angel, to chain Satan in the lake of fire. Israel a nation is an Angle????. You logic is full of error.
I ask you prove to me it is not Mary with the Rosary. Good luck Bradley!!!!
In my charity toward you I will tell why we know!
Because It has been revealed to us through private revelations which heaven has reserved until these end days. Its as simple as that.
New observer, Seriously get back to the church repent make a good confession start receiving the sacraments, then get a real theological education. I ask that those others reading this blog pray a chaplet of Divine Mercy for your intentions. You are possessed with the spirit of incredulity. Sadly my young friend you have allowed your head to be unscrewed and filled with spiritual and theological compost.
Blessing to you
Sir Thomas.

@Tom Stulc:  That’s rather hilarious.  Insulting me and then blessing me.  [“It has been revealed to us through private revelations which heaven has reserved until these end days.  It’s as simple as that.”]  That’s an interesting statement,—why do you say that?  [“I ask you prove to me it is not Mary with the Rosary.”]  Sorry, the burden of proving a negative does not fall in my court.  And no, I am not a JW.  The foundation laid before you is Bible-based scholarship.  Your many assertions, however, are not and thus require a detailed origin of source.

New Observer, Is what you say Church teaching or are you simply giving your personal interpretation and opinion to the book of the Apocalypse? It is important to know where you get these ideas.

Stefano, The black ribbon is not around her hands, it is around her waist. Aztec woman had the tradition of wearing a black ribbon around their waist to show their joy of pregnancy. The Aztecs understood that the Mother of God was in fact with child. As for the discovery of the fetus, it is something I only read about many times, I do not know the exact facts. I do know that because of this finding, Our Lady of Guadalupe has been declared Patroness of the unborn. In an approved apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe only a few years ago in Mexico to a certain man, Our Lady asked that her miraculous image be taken to the US with the promise to end abortion here. The Bishops of Mexico would not allow for her image to leave the Basilica. Our Lady accepted that a replica be made in place of the actual image. It was brought here, with reported unexplainable happenings.

Terah James, I believe you said that you are a convert to the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ. By your postings I understand that you have much to learn about Christ’s Church. You may be a Catholic in name only, as your views are not the views of Jesus Christ and his Church. Many of your arguments come from the upheavel in the Church since the Second Vatican Council ended. I believe you have been much influenced by the dissident Catholics who want to create a whole “New Church”. You are missing out on the great treasures offered by Christ and his Church. In Charity I don’t want you to miss the richness of God’d truth through his Church.

Terah James, Concerning one of your posts to Stefano, I would like to clarify the teaching of the Church on the hope of going to Heaven. We Hope for eternal salvation, anyone who believes he is definetly going to heaven is commiting one of the sins against the Holy Ghost, called presumption. Scipture tells us, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. The opposite sin is that of despair, thats when one believes he has no chance for salvation. Likewise a sin against the Holy Ghost, it is an insult to God, the sin of the Iscariot. The two sins of presumption and despair, when one dies unrepentant of these sins, the punishments of hell are severe.

Angelo, you are correct for the most part, but Our Lady’s promise at Fatima was not available to anyone living before June 13, 1917.  We are fortunate in the extreme to be able to take advantage of Our Lady of the Rosary’s generous offer.  When the Queen of Heaven makes a solemn promise, she will keep that promise.

Stefano
I not sure which promise of the Rosary was not available before Fatima.  Do not the promises of the Rosary as expressed by St Louis de Montfort harken back to the beginning. Are you speaking about the conversion of Russia?  Refresh my memories if you would please.

I have often wondered how Protestants can say the woman in Rev 12 is Israel only.  I understand their need to make it such since it would otherwise mess up their Marian Theology or lack thereof. If it is Mary then they have committed a grave thological error.  If they mess up here than what else have they gotten wrong.

To find the truth is what is primary.  To understand who the woman is you need to start at Rev 11:19 where it mentions the Ark of the Covenant.  The New Ark of the Covenant is Marycarrying Baby Jesus in her Womb. This indicates her holiness or freedom from sin by being able to carry Jesus in her womb.  Then you go to Rev 12 where you see a woman (Mary) with a crown indicating her Queenship in Heaven.  Here she is not a spirit but a woman with a body.  This indicates her bodily assumption into Heaven.  Later in verse 17 you see the dragon went off to make war against her offspring (the Chuch) those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.  Her offspring indicates she is their Mother.

To fully understand the Book of Revelation you need to read and view it from a Catholic perspective since this book and the rest of the New Testament was written by Catholic Authors in a Catholic culture.  To view it from Protestant Theology would close one’s mind to the meaning behind the words an symbology of the book.  Protestantnism was started by either a man or a woman with the tendency to sin and make errors.  The Catholic Chuch and Teachings were started by Christ and Preserved by the Church ever since.  Christ promised only to the Catholic Church that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it and that the Holy Spirit would leac it in all truths.

Hi Tom, Our Lady of the Rosary came to Fatima from May 13, 1917 thru October 13, 1917.  During the visit which occurred on June 13th, Our Lady made the following promise:  “Whoever embraces this devotion (To the Immaculate Heart of Mary) I promise salvation.  Those souls will be cherished by God, as flowers placed by me to adorn His throne.”  No other promise in history offers salvation and a very high place in Heaven.

@NO (new observer)  You said “Sorry, the burden of proving a negative does not fall in my court.

I say ” no proof is necessary for the believer and no amount of proof will suffice for the unbeliever”

Thank you Stefano,
Everyone take out you bible in the beginning you will note it starts with God speaking everything into existence ( the word) now read the end of the bible.  How does it conclude? Now take a book marker place at Geneses where the serpent strikes at the heal of the woman and she crushes his head.  Now book mark the Woman clothed in the sun in revelations 12.  with another book marker.  Can you see how much of Mary’s role is included in the economy of salvation God has placed between her a lot of important territory.  Not she is not the beginning or the end but she is involved with 99 % of the action.  Unless you think God made a mistake in how he structured his his word, salvation plans and to whom is assigning various duties.
enoufgh of this blog it is worn thin and I have duties to attend to
Thomas

WELL OK ONE MORE FOR THE ROAD AS I JUST READ THIS ON SPIRIT DAILY

MARIAN DEVOTION Sep-7-2012 (790 words) With photo. xxxi

Misreading of Vatican II led to ‘collapse’ in Marian devotion, studies

Father Phalan at a Marian conference in Rome Sept. 6. (CNS/Paul Haring)

By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS)—Devotion to Mary “collapsed” in some parts of the United States after the Second Vatican Council even though the council fathers had upheld her critical place within the Catholic faith, said a leading American expert in Marian studies.

The council’s decision to integrate a draft text on Mary into a larger dogmatic text—“Lumen Gentium”—rather than publish it as a separate document—sent an unintended message to the rest of the church, Holy Cross Father James Phalan, president of the Mariological Society of America, said in a presentation at an academic conference in Rome.

Even though bishops felt Mariology, like the church as a whole, needed to be renewed in light of tradition, liturgy and the Bible, later an “overly rationalist” historical approach reduced the role of the Holy Spirit and marginalized most forms of devotion, Father Phalan said.

Worsening the problem, he said, was the timing: post-Vatican II coincided with the upheaval of the 1970s when religious traditions and beliefs were being intensely questioned or completely dismissed by society.

Marian devotion “was caught up in this confusion” and there was a drop-off in practice and study, he said.

“The apparent change in emphasis on the Blessed Virgin contributed to a full-scale collapse of Mariology that has had very notable effects on the life of the church,” he said in his talk on “Mary and the Second Vatican Council.”

Father Phalan, who is also director of Family Rosary International, was one of the scholars, experts and theologians speaking at the 23rd Mariological Marian International Congress held in Rome Sept. 4-9.

In light of the upcoming 50th anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Council, the talks focused on “Mariology since the Second Vatican Council: Reception, Results and Perspectives.” More than 300 people from 37 countries attended the meeting, which was sponsored by the Pontifical Marian International Academy.

The council fathers had drawn up what Father Phalan called “the most complete and conclusive doctrinal statement about the Blessed Virgin Mary ever written” and made it the final chapter of the 1964 Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (“Lumen Gentium”).

Its placement within a document about the church as the body of Christ underlines the council fathers’ vision of Mary “in relation to Christ and the church,” not as someone separate or independent of Christ and the church, he said.

“The council fathers wanted us to see Mary as identified with the church,” a notion Pope Benedict XVI has often repeated, saying that Mary, as a personification of the church, should be appreciated and imitated in her contemplative and personal relationship with Christ, Father Phalan said.

Cardinal Angelo Amato, president of the congress and prefect of the Congregation for Saints’ Causes, said Vatican II was a “momentous watershed moment for Marian discourse”—steering it away from “every undeserved doctrinal and devotional exaggeration,” which would put Mary on equal ground with the Lord. Rather, it upheld her unique, yet human role in God’s plan of salvation; she is “the living vessel who, in receiving, transmits the salvation of Christ,” he said.

The church teaches that salvation only comes from God in Jesus Christ, he said, but the human being must still be open and receptive to that grace. Any sense of Mary being “co-redeemer” must be understood as cooperating “with,” not being “equal to” Jesus, because God the father generates salvation and Mary, the mother, is the recipient of that gift.

“This is the theological reason to affirm the reality of Mary and the ‘Marian principle’ in the church,” the Italian cardinal said.

While popular piety may have suffered in some parts of the West, Cardinal Amato said Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict did much to enrich and invigorate Marian reflection and tradition.

Pope Benedict has promoted attachment to Mary as a way for the faithful to draw closer to Christ. While Catholics must not exaggerate or over-sentimentalize her role, he told pilgrims at the Mariazell shrine in Austria in 2007, Mary “is a creature of courage and of obedience ... an example to which every Christian—man and woman—can and should look.

In light of the upcoming Year of Faith and the call for new evangelization, Mary can again play a critical role, Father Phalan said.

“She was the first evangelist,” showing Jesus to the world, starting with the shepherds and wise men. And she is a model for all Christians in understanding what faith is and how to accept and participate in salvation, Father Phalan said.

Given the troubled world of today, he said, “the love and mercy of God that flow through Mary” must be “even more present as part of evangelization today.”

- - -

Editors: A CNS video interview with Father Phalan can be seen at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6txRzhvvPg.

END

————————————————————————————————————————

Catholic Herald reported on August 29, 2012:

A Jesuit priest who inspired Catholics across the country has died at the age of 95.

Fr Hugh Thwaites converted from Anglicanism to Catholicism following his experience as a prisoner of the Japanese during the Second World War and later became a Jesuit priest.

He was a strong supporter of the Extraordinary Form Mass and the Legion of Mary, and he linked the abandonment of the rosary with a loss of faith, writing: “If we want in any way to be like Jesus, we must do what His Mother asks. If we do not, can we expect things to go right? We cannot with impunity disobey the Mother of God.”

Following his conversion, Fr Thwaites was passionate about evangelisation and he was renowned for asking people: “Are you a Catholic?” and then adding: “But you would like to be, wouldn’t you?” He also once compared the Anglican Church to “whisky with three parts water”, while saying Catholics were “straight out of the bottle”.

Fr Thwaites was instrumental in the establishment of the annual Rosary Crusade, which will make its 28th year in October. During the crusade, Catholics process from Westminster Cathedral to London Oratory reciting the rosary.

In his booklet, Our Glorious Faith and How to Lose It, Fr Thwaites made a passionate case for the importance of the rosary to the Catholic faith.

He wrote: “I know that Fatima is only a private revelation, but nevertheless the Church has endorsed it, and that makes it rash for us to disregard it. If the Church informs us that Our Lady really did come to Fatima and tell us these things, then we must harken to her words. It really seems to me that those Catholics who do not take Fatima seriously and say the rosary every day in their homes are very akin to the Jews who laughed at Jeremiah.

“If God sends us His prophets and we do not take them seriously – well, we have the whole of the Old Testament to tell us what happens as a result. But at Fatima, God sent us not His prophets, but His Immaculate Mother. So I think that the abandonment of the family rosary is a main reason why so many Catholics have lost the faith. It seems to me that the Church of the future is going to consist solely of those families who have been faithful to the rosary. But there will be vast numbers of people whose families used to be Catholic.”

“Posted by Stefano on Saturday, Sep 8, 2012 9:39 AM (EST): Angelo, you are correct for the most part, but Our Lady’s promise at Fatima was not available to anyone living before June 13, 1917.”

... then there’s the trivia about the black band being around Mary’s waist and not around her wrist.

So many Catholics know every detail of matters with no eternal import.  Yet, what we really NEED to know (God’s own word) is overlooked. We get bits and pieces of it at Sunday Mass, but it’s rarely (if ever) STUDIED.  We don’t bring our Bibles to Mass, to fill in the blanks regarding the parts that are omitted, or to be able put it all into context.

I’ve tried to talk about the readings or the sermons with fellow Catholics after Mass.  It’s hopeless.  They want a donut hole.  Then they want to go home.  No wonder we have so many “Catholics for Obama” & Nuns on the Bus speaking at Pro-Abort, Pro-same sex marriage & Pro-ending our religious freedom Political Conventions.

I think Catholics should put out the word that they’re bringing the Word to Mass with them, from now on.  Let’s shock Protestants~ in a good way!!
It will be easy!  No more “Church of Laodicia Catholics” or those that tolerate the Jezebels or that worship Baal.  Let the campaign begin NOW!

Tom Stulc, The two articles you present are very interesting. I’d like to comment on something on the first one. The words of Cardinal Angelo Amato, “Catholics must not exaggerate or over sentimentalize her role,” these type of words are what led many to lead others away from Marian devotion. What exactly does the Cardinal mean by such words, I take it he does not have a strong Marian devotion himself. As for Fr. Hugh Thwaites, May God grant him Eternal Rest. I understand that Our Lord Jesus Christ has special graces for those who lead others to love his Mother. The booklet Fr. Hugh Thwaites wrote “Our Glorious Faith and how to lose it” is something I look forward to reading. Do you know who publishes it?

Terah James, I admire your love for the Sacred Scriptures, but you have missed something very important. A priest once told me of the greatest Bible study program ever known. It is called the Holy Mass. At each Mass in a 3 year cycle we have the Lessons. A reading from the Old Testament, a Pslam, a reading from the New Testament comming from the Epistles and a reading from the Gospel. They are always tied together. The Phrophecies, the pslam, the Gospel being its fulfillment, the Epistle is the putting into practice, the Gospel. It has always been said that if one attends Mass daily, he would have read the whole Bible in one year. On the web their are sites that offer the daily Readings in case one cannot attend daily Mass. I attended daily Mass for years, thats how I fell in love with the Scriptures.

Many times I have heard Sermons where priests say that Scripture speaks little of Mary. In fact Scripture speaks volumes of Mary, from Genesis to the Apocalypse. That is from the first book of scripture to the last book of Scripture. The coming of Mary was prophesized in the Old Testament. In the New Testament She is the vessel from whom came the Saviour of the world, She was there at every most important aspect of our salvation. Christ lived with his Most Holy Mother for 30 years, 3 years preaching as Our Lady followed, 3 hours dying on the Cross and there was his Mother. Many have said glorious things about our Lady, the most memorable for me was at the Via Crucis. At the 13th Station Jesus is taken down from the Cross and placed in the arms of his Mother. The priest gave as a meditation, “On Christmas day Mary held the baby Jesus and gave him to us as a gift. On Good Friday we gave him back to her. Dead!”

John Wyatt, Great Post, a Tribute to our Most Holy Mother on the Feast of Her Nativity. I sure hope New Observer reads it.

Angelo,  I’m not sure who publishes “Our Glorious Faith and How to Loss IT”  that caught my attention also.  The article had a link imbedded tomorrow if get to it I will try and find it.  Probably an English (British Isles publisher)  and yes the must not exaggerate clause caught my attention also.  I attribute that to a personal cognitive style. Certain peoples brains are more intellectual and concrete and sequential orientated.  So they grasp things more like an engineer processes reality.  Where as other people are more spiritual intuitive and have a better higher order thinking mental process.  So I think that is the reason individuals like Cardinal Amato have a reserved way of looking at the spiritual realm.  think of a comparison between Benedict and John Paul II.  Both very intelligent John Paul II very emotive and Marian devoted.  Benedict very dry cerebral driven.  Benedict not as Marian but not anti Marian just views Mary in a scholarly way.  ( academic way to those who are pagan Greeks and don’t understand the difference)
Just my feelings about the difference.  In closing Mother Theresa said ” it doesn’t matter rather you come to Jesus through your intellect or you feelings just so you come to Jesus.
Finally we cycle through the Bible every three years in the readings.  However the readings are truncated at best and in the US taken from the New American Bible which is a terrible translation almost protestants and omitting at least to very important passages.  I would rather read out of my own bible than to sit through the pitiful dumb down NAB versions we are treated to at mass.

Cookie and milk break over back to bed for me.
TS

Perhaps this has article has somthing to say about why Marian devotion is down played by so many priest.

MARIAN DEVOTION Sep-7-2012 (790 words) With photo. xxxi

Misreading of Vatican II led to ‘collapse’ in Marian devotion, studies

Father Phalan at a Marian conference in Rome Sept. 6. (CNS/Paul Haring)

By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS)—Devotion to Mary “collapsed” in some parts of the United States after the Second Vatican Council even though the council fathers had upheld her critical place within the Catholic faith, said a leading American expert in Marian studies.

The council’s decision to integrate a draft text on Mary into a larger dogmatic text—“Lumen Gentium”—rather than publish it as a separate document—sent an unintended message to the rest of the church, Holy Cross Father James Phalan, president of the Mariological Society of America, said in a presentation at an academic conference in Rome.

Even though bishops felt Mariology, like the church as a whole, needed to be renewed in light of tradition, liturgy and the Bible, later an “overly rationalist” historical approach reduced the role of the Holy Spirit and marginalized most forms of devotion, Father Phalan said.

Worsening the problem, he said, was the timing: post-Vatican II coincided with the upheaval of the 1970s when religious traditions and beliefs were being intensely questioned or completely dismissed by society.

Marian devotion “was caught up in this confusion” and there was a drop-off in practice and study, he said.

“The apparent change in emphasis on the Blessed Virgin contributed to a full-scale collapse of Mariology that has had very notable effects on the life of the church,” he said in his talk on “Mary and the Second Vatican Council.”

Father Phalan, who is also director of Family Rosary International, was one of the scholars, experts and theologians speaking at the 23rd Mariological Marian International Congress held in Rome Sept. 4-9.

In light of the upcoming 50th anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Council, the talks focused on “Mariology since the Second Vatican Council: Reception, Results and Perspectives.” More than 300 people from 37 countries attended the meeting, which was sponsored by the Pontifical Marian International Academy.

The council fathers had drawn up what Father Phalan called “the most complete and conclusive doctrinal statement about the Blessed Virgin Mary ever written” and made it the final chapter of the 1964 Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (“Lumen Gentium”).

Its placement within a document about the church as the body of Christ underlines the council fathers’ vision of Mary “in relation to Christ and the church,” not as someone separate or independent of Christ and the church, he said.

“The council fathers wanted us to see Mary as identified with the church,” a notion Pope Benedict XVI has often repeated, saying that Mary, as a personification of the church, should be appreciated and imitated in her contemplative and personal relationship with Christ, Father Phalan said.

Cardinal Angelo Amato, president of the congress and prefect of the Congregation for Saints’ Causes, said Vatican II was a “momentous watershed moment for Marian discourse”—steering it away from “every undeserved doctrinal and devotional exaggeration,” which would put Mary on equal ground with the Lord. Rather, it upheld her unique, yet human role in God’s plan of salvation; she is “the living vessel who, in receiving, transmits the salvation of Christ,” he said.

The church teaches that salvation only comes from God in Jesus Christ, he said, but the human being must still be open and receptive to that grace. Any sense of Mary being “co-redeemer” must be understood as cooperating “with,” not being “equal to” Jesus, because God the father generates salvation and Mary, the mother, is the recipient of that gift.

“This is the theological reason to affirm the reality of Mary and the ‘Marian principle’ in the church,” the Italian cardinal said.

While popular piety may have suffered in some parts of the West, Cardinal Amato said Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict did much to enrich and invigorate Marian reflection and tradition.

Pope Benedict has promoted attachment to Mary as a way for the faithful to draw closer to Christ. While Catholics must not exaggerate or over-sentimentalize her role, he told pilgrims at the Mariazell shrine in Austria in 2007, Mary “is a creature of courage and of obedience ... an example to which every Christian—man and woman—can and should look.

In light of the upcoming Year of Faith and the call for new evangelization, Mary can again play a critical role, Father Phalan said.

“She was the first evangelist,” showing Jesus to the world, starting with the shepherds and wise men. And she is a model for all Christians in understanding what faith is and how to accept and participate in salvation, Father Phalan said.

Given the troubled world of today, he said, “the love and mercy of God that flow through Mary” must be “even more present as part of evangelization today.”

- - -

Editors: A CNS video interview with Father Phalan can be seen at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6txRzhvvPg.

END

————————————————————————————————————————
Copyright (c) 2012 Catholic News Service/USCCB. All rights reserved.
This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed.
CNS · 3211 Fourth St NE · Washington DC 20017 · 202.541.3250

Tom Stulc, I got so used to the New American Bible at Mass, that when I read other translations, I found them foreign to me. I purchased a Daily Missal with the translation from the New Jerusalem Bible, that was when I learned that the New American Bible sure is lacking a great deal. When Mother Angelica praised and encouraged everyone to obtain that certain Protestant Bible Catholic edition, I found it to be just as she said, an excellant translation. How I wish the US Bishops would allow its use. I think I will follow your example and use that translation for Mass.

Angelo
My best friend used New Jerusalem Bible PC . My choice is the RSV or other wise know as the Ignatius Bible. I believe other than Douay Rheams The RSV English is a good as it gets. We can obtain re issues of the 1962 missal that had the English and Latin mass translation side by side. Though I don’t have one I bet it is an eye popper. I would like to find somebody’s moms or grandmother’s original pre 62 missal in the leather bound. back when everything used in the church steeped with the holy effects of 2000 years of communion of the Saints, incense, presence of the Holy Ghost, and all the Angelic beings. When you get around this kind of stuff you can feel the power oozing out.
As for the Bishops allowing us use the correct translation————a whole another can of worms. Lets call it the clear and compelling evidence of the Great Apostasy.  Have a great day of Worship I went to anticipated mass and will out today.

Terah James = Good Cop/Bad Cop

Tom Stulc, I believe the RSV that you mention is the one Mother Angelica strongly recommended. As for the 1962 Missal I obtained an excellant one with all the readings and prayers of both Priest and People in Latin on one side and English on the other. Bl. John Paul ll said of the Missal of St. Pius V, “We cannot lose this great treasury of prayers”. The Missal I obtained is a New Edition, the first to be allowed to be printed since the Council. It contains Pope Benedict XVl Motu Proprio, Summorum Pontificum. The only difference between the 1962 Missal and its previous Editions are very few. In the 1962 Missal St. Joseph was added to the Canon, also the Last Confiteor was excluded. These were about the only changes. The Last Confiteor was used only when there were communicants. I kinda wish they would have kept it, many priests still use it though. Its a source of more graces. But obedience is the rule. One difference one will notice is the Readings at Mass, in the Old Missal it consists of the Lesson, Gradual, sometimes the Tract and the Gospel and the Last Gospel which is almost always the Beginning of the Gospel of St John. With the Last Gospel each Mass recalls the incarnation, God become Man. In the Old Missal the Readings are in a one year cycle. In the New Order of Mass the readings are an improvement. The Sunday Masses are in a 3 year cycle while Daily Mass has the Readings in a 2 year cycle. The Old Missal is an indespensible treasure. God Bless and enjoy the Lords Day.

Angelo - it’s my understanding a priest a seminary professor did a recent study of exactly how much of the Bible is really read on Sundays, and he found one has to go to DAILY Mass in order to hear about 70% of the New Testament, and even less of the Old Testament, read from the altar. So while I too, have heard the WHOLE Bible is read on a 3 year system, it’s not accurate information.  It’s an inflated number.

One thing I like about the pastor in our parish is he INSISTS the LONG version is read, whenever there is a choice between a shortened version.  He even insisted Ephesians 5 was read in its fullness, a few weeks ago at all Masses, and that’s a chapter that today’s Catholic feminists do NOT like.  He said, “Catholics hear too little Scripture, as it is, and I want the whole text read, every week.”

Secondly, you wrote, “I understand that Our Lord Jesus Christ has special graces for those who lead others to love his Mother.”

Angelo - where can we determine the origin of that statement, in order to validate its authenticity?  I thought the Holy Spirit pointed us to Jesus, and even life-long Catholics I know say that devotion to Mary is for the purpose of “pointing you to Jesus”.

What you wrote is the first time I ever heard Jesus gives grace to those that lead people to Mary. Frankly, it shocked me.  I find it not believeable, and it’s important to discern truth from error, because Revelation is about the end times.  We need to know what to expect, not to be swayed by false teachings that creep up, and that have been creeping up, since the days of the apostles.  Thank you. 

Terah James, I hope that priest pointed out that the 70% of the scriptures read at Mass are the most important parts in the economy of salvation. There are some parts that do not necessarily need to be included. As for the longer versions, I also prefer that. Some priests have said, “We will read the shorter version so as not to prolong the Mass”, I think to myself, Father why don’t you instead shorten your sermon and make room for all of God’s word. Terah James, concerning my understanding of the special Graces Jesus grants for those who spread devotion to his Mother. I have perhaps heard and read this about a million different times. Sister Lucia Dos Santos received an apparition of Christ and his Mother, Our Lady was sad and her Immaculate Heart was pierced with thorns. Jesus spoke and said to Sister Lucia, “Behold the Heart of your poor Mother, encircled with thorns from ungrateful men at every moment. You at least have pity on the Heart of your Mother and make reparation so as to remove the thorns.” Also at Fatima Our Lady asked for a new devotion, that of the Five First Saturdays in reparation for sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The sins are five that God damns souls to hell for. If I remember correctly they are, blasphemies against her Immaculate Conception, blasphemies against her Perpetual Virginity, Taking devotion to Our Lady out of the Hearts of others, Sacreliges against her Holy images, and denying her as Mother of God. What many fail to understand is that Christ Loves his Mother very much, he spent the first 30 years of his life with her. He gave her to us as our very own Mother while dieing on the Cross. His death on the Cross was our salvation why would you think he would give her to us as our very own Mother at that moment. This is not the protestant Church, it is the Holy Roman Catholic Church. It would take volumes to say why Mary is of the utmost importance. Try praying the Rosary daily, you will find yourself loving Jesus even more and loving Mary more because of Jesus. To Jesus through Mary!

Terah James, As for the five First Saturdays, they consist of 5 consecutive first Saturdays of the Month. It is comprised of Confession, Holy Communion, Praying 5 decades of the Rosary and meditating for 15 minutes in union with Mary on the mysteries of the Rosary which is a compendium of the whole of salvation history. All in reparation for sins commited against her Immaculate Heart. God promises the guarantee of Eternal salvation with all the necessary Graces for salvation at the hour of our death. If this is not proof enough of what I said, then there is no further proof a non-believer could possibly accept.

Thank you, Angelo.  I’m grateful you took the time to spell it out for me.  I am a believer in Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of God the Father, who together with the Holy Spirit, reigns over all.  I believe that Mary was blessed, and is blessed, and she, like the rest of us, is a member of the Body of Christ, and in the Communion of Saints. I believe in Jesus being the Head of His Church, and that anyone that professes Him as Lord and Savior is a part of His Mystical Body, the Church.  But I only worship and trust in Jesus, and in the Members of the Holy Trinity.  Mary, while everyone is to call her blessed, is not to be placed ABOVE or on par with the Trinity.  What you describe sounds, to me, like it is over the top, with recognizing Mary.  I don’t even think Mary would be comfortable with it, frankly.  And all of what you describe came about waaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy after the Apostolic Age.  Way, way later.
I see a Red Flag waving, with that alone.

Terah James, Your welcome. Mary of course is not above God. She is the New Eve as Christ is the New Adam. There is a story I have heard priests say many times, it is not a factual story but it conveys the important truth about who Mary is. The story goes something like this. St. Peter standing at the gates of heaven, saw that Mary was sneaking in people through the back windows of Heaven. St. Peter complained to Christ, you have given me charge of allowing only those who worked out their salvation with fear and trembling, but your Mother is sneaking souls through the back windows of Heaven. Christ answered, thats why I gave my Mother to be the Mother of all Men, if not for her, those souls would have been eternaly lost. You see, Mary does not lead us to worhsip herself, she leads us to worship her Son. At the wedding of Cana what Our Lady said to the servants she says to all of us, “Do all that he tells you.”.

Angelo you understand the rubrics of the mass in particular since the changes of VII ,  far better than me.  It must be part of your mission or personal ministry assignment from God for these times.  We will soon be in the catacombs in this country and everywhere else. probably in less than a year, by my opinion.  So gather up all you can to preserve and instruct the faithful who will come to you for what you have prepared for them.
I can appreciate Terah James because Terah’s is determined to figure it out,  if Terah sincerely asked God to help in understanding and suspends personal predetermined positions Terah will do well.
I presume Terah is a woman’s name????? these days who knows!!!!!!!!!
below is a message from locutionist John Leary. which I believe tells us where we are in world events.  Honestly folks get as much stored food warm cloths and supplies ready as possible time is extremely short. the US and the world economy is in free fall and Martial law is knocking at the door.  I have said too much.  IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN LOCUTIONIST OR MYSTICS OR MODERN PROPHETS FROM GOD PLEASEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!! I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR FORM YOU.  READ YOUR BIBLE ” YOUNG MEN WILL SEE VISIONS AND OLD MEN WILL DREAM DREAM” KEEP YOU INCREDULITY TO YOURSELF

Saturday, August 25, 2012
August 30, 2012

Saturday, August 25, 2012: (St. Louis)
Jesus said: “My people, I am grateful that you are giving devotion to My Blessed Mother of Fatima. Heaven knows that you are battling the evils of this day, and the many apparitions of the last hundred years are helping you to bear your trials. Some people have been impatient with heaven that We have not ended this evil. You will be seeing a culmination of evil’s last throes when you are faced with the tribulation of the Antichrist. Before you will see the Era of Peace that was spoken of by My Blessed Mother, My faithful will be tested dearly. When you see the coming into power of the Antichrist, you will know My victory is not far off. In My messages I am giving you hope of My protection at My refuges. I will be with you in My Blessed Sacrament to feed you My graces and strength to endure this time of evil that will grow worse. Trust in My Blessed Mother’s weapon of the rosary, and My angels who will protect you. If you are facing evil times, call on Me and My angels to help you. I have asked you to be prepared both physically and spiritually for the major events that are coming soon. I will notify My faithful when it is time to come to My refuges, so you will be protected from the enemy’s viruses and death threats.”

Angelo and others, please Pray for Leanne to return to the faith away from the diabolical cult of Jehovah witnesses. thank you.

Peace be with you: 

In J&ME; Thomas
what a long running string Mr Akin should be pleased

@Angelo:  [“Is what you say Church teaching or are you simply giving your personal interpretation and opinion to the book of the Apocalypse? it is important to know where you get these ideas.”]  Angelo, these are not my personal “ideas”—but have established biblical foundation.  I am quite aware these are not official church teachings.  Rather, these are widely held theological points of consensus in legitimate Christian biblical scholarship which has painstakingly examined the books of Genesis and the Prophet Daniel *with* the Book of Revelation.  Daniel’s dream is the forerunner to all that which is uncovered in the Book of Revelation (of Jesus, the Christ).  The “woman” is Israel.  You must read Revelation in context with the Book of Daniel to understand Revelation.  I understand this explanation is something you have not heard before and thus it may sound strange to you.  However, your taking some time to research Genesis (as my earlier post refers regarding Joseph in Egypt) and then to read Daniel in Babylonian captivity, his dream and King Nebuchadnezzar—it is then you will begin to understand “biblical” insight regarding the panoramic visions laid forth to John on the Isle of Patmos.

@Angelo:  [“Christ answered, that’s why I gave my Mother to be the Mother of all Men, if not for her, those souls would have been eternaly lost.”]  I can appreciate that you acknowlege this is only a story.  However, to perpetuate a story leads many people to accept the story as factual.  The reality is the story is totally unbiblical and runs contrary to the gospel.  Luke 19:10 says “For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”  It is Jesus who saves the lost—not Mary.  Furthermore, it is clear from the appearance of the Transfiguration that both Moses and Elijah did not require Mary’s help to obtain eternal life.

New Observer, As for the Transfiguration, it all depended on Mary. Without our Most Holy and Immacualte Mother we would have had no Jesus. It was her “Fiat” that made Christ and the Church, the Saints, the Sacraments, ect… Possible. Had the Most Mother said no, we would have nothing. To Jesus through Mary! As for the book of the Apocalypse, if you know they are not Church teaching and only a bunch of useless immaginations. Then why do you present them as facts?!

Tom Stulc, I agree that Terah James is a soul most pleasing to God. If at times I say things to her that may sound rude, it is only because she loves God so much and I believe liberals have led her to modernism. I desire very much that she not be led astray. As for the Locution you brought to our attention, it is something I have been waiting for. You see, the world seems to be offending God so much I had wondered why Heaven had not spoken. Thank you, I now see that Heaven has in fact spoken and we must continue to pray and offer sacrifices for the conversion of poor sinners, to do pennace, to do all Our Lady of Fatima has requested of us. There are many who are doing what our Lady requested and in the Locution you speak of, Christ confirms this. I will certainly pray for Leanne. Most Holy Mother, we Consecrate Leanne to thine Immaculate Heart and to the Sacred Heart of Jesus,  Amen.

@Angelo:  [“As for the Transfiguration, it all depended on Mary.”]  Your statement is biblically in error and Catholic folklore.  Moses and Elijah’s salvation pre-dated any requirement of participation by Mary.  She is not a co-redemtrix as you would suggest, Angelo.  You have conveniently omitted Abraham as well.  Galations 3:6 states “Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”  While we (now) look back to Messiah, OT saints looked forward to Messiah in faith.  When did the Catholic church decide only some of Paul’s letters were true and not all of Paul’s letters are true?  If you accept the entirety of God’s word in inerrant, then you cannot invent your own theology.

[“if you know they are not Church teaching and only a bunch of useless immaginations. Then why do you present them as facts?”  Angelo, my friend, those are your words, not mine.  These are not imaginations, but Bible-based sources.  How are they useless if they are Bible-based?  Why do you wish to ignore the Scriptures and invent your own theology?

New Observer, They are useless because they are not Biblicaly based on Biblical Truth. But the mere private interpretaions of scripture at its worst. As for Mary Mother of God, the Old Testament Prophets would have never seen the day of the coming of the Messiah without Mary’s YES. Have you failed to read the scripture part of the Incarnation, God become Man. It was through Mary’s Fiat that She the Woman conceived Jesus through the power of the Holy Ghost. Note that the Archangel Gabriel did not leave until Mary said yes. Without that yes we would have no God become man. The Church intends to define the Dogma of Mary as co-Redemtrix, the Mediatrix of all Graces and another Dogma of which I don’t recall at the moment. You should consider converting to the Catholic Church founded by the Son of Mary Most Holy.

@Angelo:  The idea of Mary as mediatrix is contrary not only to the gospel but to the Scriptures as well.  Your salvation is by the shed blood alone by Jesus at Calvary (Hebrews 9:22).  Only Jesus has the power to save the lost (Luke 19:10).  You are unknowingly committing blasphemy by attributing salvation works to Mary which only the Lord God is capable.  You should more closely examine Catholic tradition when such teaching is at variance with the gospel.

The Apostle John tells us that if everything Jesus did were written down, the world could not contain the books. (And that was God living on earth for three years.)  You Bible thumpers want to restrict the Eternal God not just to one book, but to a few verses withing that book!!!  God can do whatever He wants to do.  God can exalt His Mother to heights He chooses, not to the limits your poor small brains can accept.

@Stephano:  Really?  Insulting those of your “separated bretheren” is the best you can do in defense?  No doubt you failed to pay any atttention to the gospel reading from Mark 7 yesterday at Mass.

Angelo, thank for prayer for Leanne, a long and interesting story, a little hard for me.
NO ( New Observer asks? )

“When did the Catholic church decide only some of Paul’s letters were true and not all of Paul’s letters are true? 

Answer says ” Jesus said to Peter ” what ever you hold bound on earth is bound heaven,  what ever you hold bound in heaven is bound on earth”  that is why the magisteriam of the church can determine what is cannon and what is not,  God gave the catholic church authority to do so.

NO says! “then you cannot invent your own theology.” 

Answer says!  correct now go and tell that to Martin Luther.( scripture alone) (faith alone) inventing his own unbiblical dogmas.  How about Calvin, Charles Taze Russell.  Ellen G white. Jim Jones,  Joseph Smith.  and the list goes on

NO says!  Furthermore, it is clear from the appearance of the Transfiguration that both Moses and Elijah did not require Mary’s help to obtain eternal life.

Answer says!
Mosses and Elijah did indeed need Mary’s help to obtain eternal life,  meaning entrance to the beatific vision know as heaven.  When Jesus expired on the cross he descended into hell where every knee bowed before him there.  Before that no person was admitted to heaven.  So Moses and Elijah need Mary’s yes to God!  Remember she said ” I am the Hand Maiden of the Lord let it be done——- ”  so without Mary’s yes no Jesus born in the flesh. No Jesus in flesh and blood on the cross no perfect sacrifice. No decent to the dead. (Hell)  So Mosses and Elijah who were not in heaven and could not be admitted,  They were in what used to be called Limbo or otherwise purgatory. know to bible scholars as Abrahams bosom
Thomas
John Leary is the locutions whom I posted the message from.  is on the web I also recommend Michael Voris on Real Catholic TV/ now called church militant TV as good as catholic educations as anyone can get/

First, thank you to those that had kind words to say about me, and because we are all trying to deepen our knowlege & increase our faith in Him, God must be pleased with us all, even those that are now on opposite sides of some issues.  Someone said: “In the small matters, diversity.  In the important matters, unity.  And in all matters: charity.  I don’t know who that was.  But he/she was good at conflict resolution, and very wise.

Angelo, you wrote, “At the wedding of Cana what Our Lady said to the servants she says to all of us, “Do all that he tells you.” and as a result, you are placing great, great value on Mary’s role in salvation.

But at the Baptism of Jesus and at the Transfiguration, God the Father, from Heaven, said the same thing.  “This is my Son.  Listen to Him.”  I thought Mary was just echoing what the Father was saying about the same time.  It’s not that Mary is important regarding that verse.  It’s the message (listen to Jesus) that’s important. We “listen to Him” even today.

About the importance of Mary saying, “YES!”  While it is important, God in His wisdom had given her the grace to cooperate with the incarnation of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity taking on the body of a baby. So it would have been impossible for Mary to have said “no”.  But if Mary did say no, God would have gotten another woman to comply, because Plan A from the Garden of Eden and the Original Sin - due to the Fall - was for God to become “God with us” = Emmanuel.  There was no Plan B.

Prior to that, God “templed” with Israel, in the Ark of the Covenant, but access was only given to Moses, and then High Priests through Aaron, and only once a year.  Jesus was ALWAYS going to be born.  God’s Plan A would never have been thwarted.

Just like today, God uses *us* and gives *us* the grace to be bearers of the Good News that He has come, died and risen, our sins are forgiven, upon our repentence, when we blow it, and do not comply with His will, God just uses someone else to reach lost souls.  It does not all depend upon us.  Likewise, it did not all depend upon Mary.

Though because she DID comply, giving God ‘credit’ for everything - in her Magnificat, we DO call her “Blessed”.  She is very special, among those in the Communion of Saints, and in the Body of Christ.

thus we come home to the article Who is the woman is Revelations 12?  Mary the ark * of the new covenant.  Mary could have said no.  because of gift of free will.  she was not bound or compelled by grace to take on the job. 

TJ says” So it would have been impossible for Mary to have said “no”. But if Mary did say no, God would have gotten another woman to comply, 
Answer says “another woman could not have replaced Mary because Mary was conceived without sin (free from original sin, the new Eve Mary had to be a flawless vessel without stain so that Satan prince of this world could have no claim on Jesus and his perfect God hood.  It was not an automatic in for Mosses Elijah.

* ark = vessel=womb for babies in creatures.

@Tom Stulc:  [“because Mary was conceived without sin (free from original sin.”]  I wonder why you say that, Tom?  Now you are taking issue with Terah James, a fellow Catholic.  The Immaculate Conception means that the incarnation of Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not that Mary was herself sinless.  If Mary was sinless she would not require salvation.  By her own admission in the gospel, (Mary’s Magnificat) she responds to Gabriel “My soul rejoices in God my Savior.”  Mary’s own response indicates her very real and personal need to be saved from her own sins.  That’s why Mary, too, needs a Savior.

New Observer, As we can see by a few posts private interpretation causes nothing but harm to souls. By other posts we can see how living the faith through the Church keeps us safe in God. You say Mary is not Mediatrix of all Graces. Why are you so sure she is not? I’ll tell you why, you see you depend only on yourself for the truth. You have the attitude that you are infallible. You don’t even know what Mediatrix of all Graces means, Christ shed his Blood for our salvation, where did he get his Blood? It came solely through Mary. We all have 46 Chromosones, we take 23 from our Biological Father and 23 from our Biological Mother, Jesus took all his 46 Chromosones from the Woman, his Mother Mary, pure and spotless Flesh and Blood. The next time you receive Holy Communion remember the Flesh and the Blood of Christ came from Mary his Mother. Christ came to us through Mary. And so on. Celinedesilva was right, it makes no sense to speak to a fool. She gave many passages from scripture on this fact.

New Observer, I see that while writing a comment, you came out with other strange doctrines. You need a good catechism. By your last post you proove that you are a Formal Heretic. Give up while your behind.

New Observer, I was going to let Tom Stulc teach you the Catholic faith. But I’ll give it to you. The Immacualte Conception is the fact that Mary was conceived without original sin. She was sinless upon her conception and to this day. She never commited any sin. This Dogma has been believed for 2000 years. In 1854 Bl. Pius lX defined this ancient belief as a Dogma of the Faith. People of no faith defied the Church on this. Then in 1858 Our Lady appeared at Lourdes France to St. Bernadette who today her body is perfectly incorrupt. To St. Bernadette Our Lady said of herself, “I am the Immaculate Conception”. You really need to take a good Cathecism course. You are the fruit of Modernistic errors in the Church.

Dear NO since when did you become concerned with me taking Issue with a fellow catholic.  You have been at for quite sometime with your pride and rebellion.  I am not taking issue with Terah James.  We are all on a path and I am offering some thought for her to consider toward developeing a better informed conscious.  Every human being while on earth is spending a life in God’s instruction.  Some happily toward god and others to the contrary away.  And that unhappy bunch going away are rebellious recalcitrant’s.  They will face Jesus and hear him say ” depart from me I do not know you”
As to the specifics please pardon me if I forget the theological Greek word for Mary’s condition in salvation
(theoktokesies or something like that my spelling is way off)  sorry all my references are boxed up and I must relay on memory only.  Which does get a bit taxed. 

  Speaking of Mary needing a savior she was without original sin and was not under the condition know as concupiscence, She did receive the benefits of God as savior pre to her conception and existence.  A condition which all saints who make it into heaven will receive and must have.  A condition which is a sheer gift from God.  What she has and we are eligible to receive. Why? here is the reason! God cannot look upon the face of sin.  therefore Every human who gets into heaven will be brought to the same state of purity as Mary before she was born,  She was gifted by god in the pre condition for his purposes.  We are gifted post birth and earthly life because of his generosity.  That young Bradley is why purgatory is not only a necessity but a generous gift.  Purgatory is not only to satisfy God’s justice but as gift from God for us to rid ourselves of the last vestiges of our improperly adjusted attitudes.  So we enter Heaven in the same conditions as Mary also did pure, joyful, unblemished in the fullness of our person hood that God intended from the beginning.

I hope that answers the Mary needed a savior talking point WHICH you throw about.

  So NO, you said you are not a Jehovah Witness, perhaps then an Adventist or self proclaimed bible thumper? very well.  The point being you are feeding from the same troughs of doctrine of demons mentioned in 1st timothy 4:1 “Now the spirit expressively says in the latter times some* will depart from the faith giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrine of demons”  *some-New Observer—- Please indulge me if I give a short history of some kinds of scriptural rhetoric you are espousing.  Mary Todd Lincoln was into séances.  That movement in the united states was called spiritism grew very fast circa 1880.  People were into séance channeling demons,  conjuring the dead.  knocking on the kitchen wall all of that etc.  Many of the so called bible believer movements was spanned in that climate.  In other words at the inspiration of demons many made their own anti tradition religious movements.  So we see the fruits of Martin Luther’s rebellion was The Bible only end game of reductionism.  Now each and every thumper could be his own authority. church, pope, and ultimately his own God.  The JWs” are just one of those many movements.  In 2 Timothy 4:3 the word of God says “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but accumulate for themselves teachers to suit own likings. and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.  Being an old farm and ranch boy I have the experience of raising all kind of live stock.  I can tell you that all the bible thumpers feeding from the same doctrines of demons trough are like a herd of swine feeding, they look pretty much the same from the behind.  Naturally the root of all this is pride and disobedience. 
  A demonic rebellion has been fomented against the teaching authority of the church.  That authority was handed down through the first apostles who were with Jesus in person and early fathers by tradition not scripture.  And so you must know the first books of the bible ( torah-or old testament) came to us thorough oral tradition not scripture.  Its has been so long since my Biblical Archeology studies I cannot pin point the exact era in history but you can look it up if you want. So this is my point in 2 timothy 3 you will read—-“Understand this in the last days there will come a time of stress* for men will be lover of self, money, proud, arrogant, abusive, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce hates of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with pride, lovers of pleasure rather than God,  HOLDING THE FORM OR RELIGION BUT DENYING ITS POWER——they will capture weak women burdened with sins and swayed with various impulses, who will listen to anyone and can NEVER ARRIVE AT A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.  As Jannas and Jambres opposed Mosses so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt minds and counterfeit faith.
So new observer you have zeal God can use that if you will submit yourself to truth taught by his church.  Trust me you are not the only one who thought they knew better than God and what he teaches us through his church. I was once there also.  anybody can turn it around if they surrender pride in their own intellectual decrements.
Good night
In Jesus and Mary
Thomas.

Terah James, By your post of Sept, 10 5:20 PM I can say you do not yet understand the role of Mary in salvation. Mary was foretold from the very beggining, before the world was even created, all the way back to the rebellion of lucifer. The fall of lucifer came about because he rejected that God would create a being more perfect than he. And that person was Mary. Mary Our Mother seeks to lead us to Christ her Son. She is of such greatness that she has already recieved what God has promised us if we attain eternal salvation. Namely Her bodily Ressurrection, being assumed into Heaven Body and Soul, and Crowned with Glory, Crowned as Queen of heaven and earth, Queen of the Angels. The seat at the right hand of Jesus was reserved for her. Notice in almost all Catholic Churches the Altar of God dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary is always located at the right side of the Tabernacle that holds Our Lord Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. What Scripture speaks of Mary, it always holds great mysteries of salvation. The Mystics of the Church wrote from visions from heaven that speak of Mary, when one reads these one finds that Mary is a MAJOR part of God’s plan for salvation. She is the Woman, Adam and Eve’s fall came about because of Mary, as satan already knew about the Woman, he thought Eve was the Woman which is why he sought to destroy her. Before making judgements on the role of Mary lets first find out who she is.

Terah James, A good place to start in knowing who Mary and her role in salvation is, is by reading the words she spoke as Our Lady of Guadalupe to St. Juan Diego. She said things like, “I am the Mother of the true and ever living God for whom we all live for”, “I am she who crushes the head of the serpant”, “Why do you fear is it not your Mother who is here”. When St. Juan Diego begged our Lady to choose someone else more important for the mission she came for. It saddened our Lady that he did not recognize his own great dignity as a man created by God out of Love. The apparitions of Mary is an affirmation of God’s creation and salvation. The greatness of Our Lady of Guadalupe is twofold. One being the Miraculous Image of the Woman St. Juan Diego saw, the other are the words spoken by our Lady and the manner in which she spoke them.

Dear Angelo, the Blessed Mother cannot be Queen of the Angels, because she is human, and they are spirit.  The opposite of Lucifer is Michael the Archangel.  Michael is the Leader of all angels that serve God the Father.

I don’t understand how any body can become incorrupt, as God Himself said, “Dust you are and to dust you shall return.”  So I truly cannot explain it to have bodies that are incorruptable.  But it has nothing to do with our own eternal salvation or with the Great Commission so other souls will be saved and turned to Jesus, so I think it’s not important.  Dead bodies should rest in the ground, until Jesus returns and reunites the bodies with their souls.  Jesus said of Nathaniel, “in him, there is no guile” and yet, Nathaniels body decomposed.  So did Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, and even John the Baptist, who Jesus said no one in the Old Testament was greater.

Re: Mary at Jesus’s right hand - when James and John asked to sit there, Jesus said it was not up to Him to decide, but to the Father.  So I have no idea how it came to be thought that Mary is sitting there.

About Juan Diego - he’d have nothing to fear because the Holy Spirit was presumably with him, not so much Mary.  And Mary is the mother of the Incarnate Jesus.  The “True and Living God”, second Person of the Trinity has no mother.  Only the incarnate Jesus has a mother.  I’m in a hurry- need to think more about what you wrote above. Thanks for responding.

@Terrah James:  [“Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist.”]  Since John was born after Mary, this, it seems, would send Angelo back to the drawing board.  Even John needed to be saved from his sins.

@New Observer:  Small brain syndrome again.  God didn’t lump His Mother in with the rest of humanity in that verse.  Our Lady is in an exalted class alone.  Since you like to think small, meditate on thirty pieces of silver.

HEAVEN WITHOUT A QUEEN IS JUST ANOTHER BACHELOR PAD;

“We are made in likeness and image of God” We humans are grater than Angels who serve god and us.  We are body soul and spirit;  Angles are pure spirit. We share with god making new life as we procreate.  Angeles cannot procreate.  That is the reason for Satan’s rebellion when he found out Christ the King of Heaven and Earth the savior was to be God in flesh.  He considered material flesh inferior to himself and said NO I WILL NOT SERVE.  We are restored to sanctifying grace through baptism and the sacrament of confessions. Sanctifying grace is a toned down western church translation,  Eastern rite Catholics use the original word deifying grace.  Contemplate that one. That is why Mary can be Queen of Heaven.

The Old Testament prefigured all the greatness of the New Testament. When one was chosen King, it was not his wife who was Queen, it was his Mother who was enthroned as Queen at the right hand of the King. When a woman said to Jesus, “Blessed are the paps that gave you suck” Christ responded, “Rather blessed is the one who believes”, Go back to the Mystery of the Rosary, The Visitation. St. Elizabeth speaking by the Holy Ghost said to Mary, “But who am I that the Mother of my God should come to me. Blessed are you Mary because you BELIEVED” The first public miracle performed by Jesus was at the request of his Mother to whom he could not deny anything. Mary said to her Son, “They have no more wine”, Christ said, “WOMAN what is this to you and to me, my time has not yet come”, “Mary turned and said to the servants, DO ALL THAT HE TELLS YOU” Jesus then turned water into wine, his first public miracle at the request of his Holy Mother. The chief steward was surprised, “The best vintage is served first, but here the best vintage is served last” This was the ushering of the New Testament at Mary’s request. Take note that it was at The Mother of God’s request that our eternal salvation began. There are many examples in scripture of the importance of Mary The Woman. The problem is that we have too many protestants in the Church faking to be Catholic. Terah James, I believe I mistook you for one who seeks truth. Please return to your protestant church, we have enough problems with other heretics in the Catholic Church. Thank you Terah for all your unkind words concerning Our Lady, because now I know you are faking Catholic.

@Stephano:  Let’s start over and avoid any personal insults.  My references are all biblical.  The “women” is Israel.  The foundation has been laid in Genesis and in the Prophet Daniel’s dream.  All from God’s word.  I presume you also accept the Bible as God’s word.  Why should I discount the Bible and now accept your extra-biblical teaching?

N.O.,

Why should we discount extra biblical teaching and accept Sola Scriptura?

It always comes down to premises, my friend, and you haven’t (can’t) proven yours.  Scripture is NOT the only infallible source of Truth.  That is Scriptural. 

Both/And, not either/or.  The woman is indeed Israel.  And Mary. 

Terah,

Imagine a burning building.  Flames everywhere and a woman trapped on the 3rd floor.  Fireman one is told to go in an bring her out.  He has been trained to so, prepared, if you will (filled with grace).  He has a choice to make.  Risk his life, or walk away.  If he walks away, another fireman will step in to do the job.

If he goes in, we will call him a hero, and rightly so.  Not because the woman was saved, but because HE was the one who saved her.  He made a choice and that choice earns him the title of “special”.  He’ll get a commendation, a medal, his picture on the wall.  Was he instrumental in her salvation?  Would she have been saved without him?  If another fireman could have done the job (and would have) doesn’t that mean that honoring him is pointless?  So what?  So he risked his life.  If he didn’t do it, someone else would have.  There is nothing special about him.  He was trained after all.  He was just “doing his job”.

I don’t think any of us would feel that way.  Rather we recognize that his choice was the very thing that set him apart from everyone else.  We honor him for that, just as we honor Mary for her choice.  Prepared or not, filled with Grace or not, she still CHOSE to say yes, and we all find that incredibly remarkable!

@mk:  [“just as we honor Mary for her choice.  Prepared or not, filled with Grace or not, she still CHOSE to say yes, and we all find that incredibly remarkable!”]  No problem with that.  A role of honor and great respect in salvation History should be accorded Mary.  Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David and all the Prophets had their role as well.  All Christian people hold Mary in the highest respect.  She is not, however, equal to the Trinity as a co-redemtrix.  She is not deity and salvation is not by Mary but by Solus Christus.

N.O.,

I don’t believe anyone here (or anyone else for that matter) has ever claimed that she WAS equal to the trinity.  Or equal as a co-redemtrix.  I believe that is your spin on it, not ours. 

Queen of Heaven?  Check (The mother of the King is automatically a Queen).  Co-redemptrix?  Check (She played a pivotal role) Mediatrix?  Check.  (We are ALL mediators.  Scripture says there is no mediator between God the Father and man except Jesus.  It says nothing about mediating between man and Jesus.  We ALL pray for each other.  We ALL (do or should) approach Jesus on one another’s behalf.  Salvation came THROUGH marry.  That’s just a biological fact.  To say she is the mother of salvation, or the mother of Mercy is not a metaphysical statement but an empirical one. 

Please, show me anyone, anywhere, who ever claimed that Mary was a deity!

@mk:  [“Or equal as a co-redemtrix.  I believe that is your spin on it, not ours.”]  mk, no that is not mine, but yours, *your people.* 

Angelo wrote on 09/10/2012 at 2:16pm EST:  “The Church intends to define the Dogma of Mary as co-Redemtrix,”

mk, I think this is part of the problem of misinformation coming from Catholicism and your Bishops and Pastors do not quash false understandings with strong enough emphasis.  Too many Catholics believe too many things as gospel which are not necessarily what the Catholic church teaches.  Such things many Catholics say are confusing to Christians and further isolate our coming together in areas of common agreement.  I would be good of you (mk) to help educate your fellow Catholics who are reading this blog.  Likewise, your priests as well might like to address such false beliefs during their homilies on Sunday.

Dear Friend in Christ,

When a person or a country denies or rejects the truth .. it’s lights out. Please take a few minutes to watch this episode of the Vortex and pass it to your family and friends.

GOD Bless you and your loved ones,

Michael Voris
~senior executive producer at ChurchMilitant.TV

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I haven’t yet viewed the video from Michael Voris, but that name sounds familiar to me from somewhere.  I agree with the sentiment that when a country denies and rejects Jesus, and God the Father and the Holy Spirit, it is indeed lights out.

MK - thanks for taking the time to describe a parable, in order to think deeper about Mary’s role in salvation.  Will give that more thought.

Due to this blog, the subject matter and the comments, I am re-reading the book of Revelation.  So it is time well spent, to have kept up with this.

No matter who you are, be very careful when you try to limit God,  especially in the honor and love He shows to His Mother.  The non-believer can only imagine the mundane.  The true Catholic believer has experienced God’s grace through the Sacraments and has glimsped the ocean of God’s mercy and love!  If God gives me a wretched sinner, such abundant gifts, imagine the riches bestowed upon Our Lady, the spotless spouse of the Holy Ghost, full of grace!

N.O.,

I just don’t see the same “misinformation” among Catholics as you do (unless of course you mean the Kennedy’s, Pelosi, Sebelius and Biden…but that’s not the same because they UNDERSTAND Church Teaching, they just ignore it). 

Pretty much everyone here is usually on the money when it comes to Church Teaching.  Again, you’d have to show me where a Catholic claimed that the Church teaches/believes something that it doesn’t.  If you do, I would be happy to help clear it up or point to someone/something that
can.

But the Church has never taught that Mary is part of the group of persons that makes up God.  And I don’t know any Catholics who think it does.

N.O.,

I will say that in our past conversations, unlike some other Protestants, you have seemed sincere in your desire to understand what it is we really believe.  Bishop Sheen says there aren’t more than 10 people in the world who hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they THINK the Catholic Church is.  (That’s a paraphrase, btw)

I do agree that our Catechisis was pretty lame for the last 40 years and we could certainly do with (and I think the effort is out there…this very website is just one example) some heavy duty catch up.  But the info IS out there and any Catholic that wants to know, wouldn’t have to look very hard.  I myself, am a cradle Catholic who was poorly catechized and left the Church because of it.  I came home 20 years ago and have been “teaching” myself ever since.  Seek and you shall find…

mk:  You better have a conversation with “your” guy, Angelo.  It was he who commented on Mary being co-redemptrix.  The topic of co-redemtrix has garnered a lot Catholic endorsement due to John Paul II.  Maybe that’s just his devotion but many Catholics might have misunderstood his devotion as official teaching if that is what you mean.

You’re right, mk.  I remember trying to tame down that one guy who had some flare ups with you.  Sometimes he was civil and then was not.  I’m glad cooler heads prevailed.

Well, I believe it is “understood” to be Catholic Teaching while not having officially been proclaimed a Dogma Ex-Cathedra.  The Dogma of Mary being conceived without sin was Accepted Church Teaching long before it was officially named Dogma.  So was the Trinity.  So was the fully Divine/fully Human natures of Jesus.  Dogma’s are rarely proclaimed until the need arises…as when heresies regarding them arise.  I believe I read somewhere that one of the reasons it hasn’t been officially proclaimed (Co-redemtrix, that is) is that there is no need.  It’s accepted as Church Teaching.

While not actually using the word “Co-Redemptrix”, here is how where the Catechism is actually defining her as exactly that.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm

494 At the announcement that she would give birth to “the Son of the Most High” without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that “with God nothing will be impossible”: “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word.” Thus, giving her consent to God’s word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God’s grace:

511 The Virgin Mary “cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation” (LG 56). She uttered her yes “in the name of all human nature” (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 30, 1). By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.

I think you just make too much of the title.  You are attributing to it much more than we do.

Thank you N.O.  I am ALWAYS open to an honest (even if it gets heated) discussion.  What I am not open to is someone being obtuse.  Putting me on a Merry Go Round and watching me get dizzy.  That’s just dishonest.  You didn’t do that.  We disagreed, but we kept on topic, you read my responses (and I yours) and the conversation moved forward.  It didn’t go round and round til my head spun.  Thank you for that.  I love a good discussion, as long as it is honest.

        A reading from
the letter of Paul to
                  TITUS
  titus 3:10-11 As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him one or twice, have NOTHING MORE TO DO WITH HIM, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self condemed.

New Observer, mk brings out an important quote from the Ven. Archbishop Fulton Sheen, “but there are millions who hate what they THINK the Catholic Church is.”. There are in fact millions within the Church today who hate what they think the Catholic Church is. And you by no exception fall into this category. As do the liberals that caused extreme damage to the Faith and to souls in the last 45 years or so. As regards to our ralations with non-Catholic religions, it seems you propose compromising the Faith in order to falsey Bring about unity. Both Bl. John Paul ll and Pope Benedict XVl have repeatedly condemned this type of erroneous thinking. They call it “false Ecumenism”. You work hard to downplay the role of Mary Mother of God, here’s something for you. Yesterday Sept, 12 was the great Feast of “The Most Holy Name of Mary”. That the Church should have such a Feast in her Liturgical calender, speaks loudly about Our Lady’s great dignity before God and Man. This Saturday Sept, 15 is the Feast of the Seven Sorrows of Mary Most Holy, think about it, the Church even celebrates Liturgicaly the Womans sorrows, those sorrows of hers all had to do with our salvation. And you downplay her importance!

Terah James, You said you could not understand how a body can be incorrupt. God preserves the bodies of certain Saints incorrupt, that is their bodies do not succumb to nature and decompose. There are many such Saints. Some of the greatest Saints bodies decomposed and yet those of others did not. I have never heard of the Church giving an official explanation as to why God chooses certains Saints. But it is a fact which cannot be denied because of the factual evidence which is the incorrupt bodies themselves. A cetain Joan Carrol Cruz wrote a book called the “Incorruptables”. She wrote a short story on their lives with photographs of their bodies. The one that amazes me the most is the incourrpt body of St. Bernadette who was given the visions of Lourdes, where Our Lady says, “I am the Immaculate Conception”. The body of this Saint after 134 years after her death is perfectly incorrupt. As if she were only asleep. Her limbs are still flexible with no signs of rigor mortis. Church law in the cononization of Saints requires the exuhmation of their Bodies. This is when they discover such miracles. The last body to be exuhmed incorrupt is that of Bl. John XXlll. His body by order of Bl. John Paul ll was displayed in St. Peters square for all to see and venerate. His body is now in St. Peters Basilica in a crystal casket beneath the Altar I believe of St. Lawerence. We can’t deny what is a fact.

@Angelo:  [“And you by no exception fall into this category.’]  Sorry, Angelo, you don’t know me nor do you know MK.  MK will tell you I do not “hate” the Catholic church.  You confuse taking a doctrinal position regarding certain matters of Christian faith differing with what Catholicism teaches is hate.  I personally loathe typical Catholic responses which cannot engage in objective discussion.  Someone taking a position other than the Catholic “view” deteriorates into baseless accusations of “You are your own pope,”  “You hate Catholics,” “You hate Mary,”  “You have your own interpretation,”  “You are a heretic,”  Why are you on this Catholic blog?” and so on.  Also, don’t forget the standard ending:  “I will pray for you.”

The Holy House of Loreto
by Sr. Katherine Maria July 11, 2005
Religious Gifts / Rosaries
The Holy Land had seen its last and truly unsuccessful Crusade in 1291. The last of the Christian soldiers withdrew from Nazareth the same year leaving behind the holiest of houses — unprotected.

It was to be dealt with according to the Moslem tradition of pillaging and destruction. It may seem farfetched to think that a tiny clay house venerated by a handful of Christians could merit such vindictive rage. But this was a unique house — visibly an edifice of mud and straw but preserving within its framework living memories of its Royal Household — Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

At any rate the first assault was begun by the Seljukian Turks in 1090. They savagely raged through the Holy Land looting the treasures left in churches by devout pilgrims. They turned Basilicas and churches into mosques and destroyed what was deemed useless for their unholy purposes. Among the last class fell the fate of Santa Casa, home of the Holy Family. Fortunately when Constantine had the first Basilica built over the holy spot in 312 — the house along with the grotto that was attached was interred within a subterranean crypt. And it survived the desecration.

In the years that followed, a trickle of Christian pilgrims kept alive devotion and veneration to the Holy House where the Word was made flesh. Then when the first Crusaders arrived victoriously in 1100 under Tancred, they built a new Basilica.

During the relative peace that ensued pilgrims once again freely visited the sanctified ground. But because of the unholy motives that drew some crusaders to the Holy Land God did not bless all their attempts to secure lasting peace and it resulted in spasmodic victories overshadowed by powerful defeats. In all there were eight crusades. In 1219 Saint Francis of Assisi whose spiritual sons now have charge of the Holy House visited the “Holiest spot on Earth” in Nazareth. During the last crusade Saint Louis IX, King of France knelt on the ground that had once been frequented by Our Lord and received Him into his heart in Holy Communion.

The year 1263 saw the second destruction of the Basilica but again the Holy House endured victoriously the assaults of the Infidels. But defeated Christians withdrew in 1291. Total destruction finally loomed over the former home of the Holy Family as free reign was given in the Holy place to its unholy inhabitants. Eternal Wisdom, however, had other plans!

On the night of May 10, 1291 the shepherds of Tersatto, now Yugoslavia, parted company to tend to their flocks. The lonely fields in Dalmatia and the shepherds who treaded them daily were well acquainted with each other. So when the sudden appearance of a house that wasn’t there the night before occurred, it caused quite a stir. Little did they realize it once housed the “Morning Star.”

The poor baffled little shepherds, not suspecting the divine adventure of the little hut inspected it curiously. The walls did not all evenly touch the ground — half hovered over the road and the rest rested in the field. The tiny structure resembled a church more than a domestic abode. As they entered it the air seemed filled with a heavenly incense. Indeed it was. For in this house, from the root of Jesse bloomed the “Mystical Rose.”

The undaunted investigators, at any rate, discovered that this “chapel” contained an ancient altar, a beautiful statue of the “Holy Mother of God” and a cross bearing her crucified Child. Realizing it was no ordinary incident, the shepherds ran off to the local church of Saint George to awaken Father Alexander Georgevich. The puzzled priest, after investigating the clay “church” himself, could offer little explanation to the humble crowd that gathered. That night the weary old prelate, although severely crippled with arthritis, spent hours in prayer beseeching enlightenment from the “Virgin Most Powerful.” In his sleep the “Mother of Good Counsel” rewarded his humility by answering his request in a dream.

“Know that his house,” she said, “is the same in which I was born and brought up. Here, at the Annunciation….I conceived the Creator of all things. Here, the Word of the Eternal Father became man. The altar which was brought with the house was consecrated by Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. This house has now come to your shores by the power of God….And now in order that you may bear testimony of all these things, be healed. Your unexpected and sudden recovery shall confirm the truth of what I have declared to you.”

The next day the sudden disappearance of Father Georgevich’s familiar malady was quite obvious. He then announced that it was she, who is called “Health of the Sick” who had cured him and related the vision of the night before. The peasants of Tersatto now knew for sure that this was the sacred little home of their Savior. They venerated it accordingly.

Then suddenly on December 10, 1294, three years later, the little house disappeared as mysteriously as it had come. This time however, the angels were not so successful in bearing it away without notice! The alert shepherds of Tersatto reported the departure. And across the Adriatic Sea the happy victims of insomnia, who strolled about — rushed home with reports of a mysterious passage overhead of a little house — borne aloft by angels. The awesomeness of the spectacle gave hint that it was the work of the Son of the “Queen of Angels.”

To this very day the people of Tersatto in Dalmatia (Yugoslavia), as well as people in the Italian Marche region, on the night of December ninth and tenth at three a.m. rise to the sound of exalted bells and light their customary bonfires as they sing litanies of praise to the “Cause of Our Joy.”

Across the sea in Italy a little plain called Banderuolo, four miles from the city of Lecanati welcomed the Holy House when the angels lowered its uneven walls onto the wooded area. It took almost no time for people to hear of the arrival of this strange airborne house. Thousands of people began to make pilgrimages to it and it rapidly gained a reputation as a place of cures. But unfortunately as the pilgrims increased, so did the bandits that lurked in the surrounding forest. Slowly the house of prayer became surrounded by a den of thieves. Feeling the same justified anger that once compelled Him to cast the buyers and sellers from His Father’s House, Our Lord withdrew the House itself!

Once again the soft flutter of angel’s wings stirred the night air as they relocated the home of the “House of Gold.” This time its foundationless walls settled down on the Antici property in Lecanati. Tradition tells us, not long after this that the two brothers who owned the property took to fighting. The cause of the riff was probably over the Holy House itself, each claiming to own the plot it occupied or perhaps taking credit for its having chosen the land because of their personal holiness! Tradition calls it a quarrel, but it must have been quite brutal to have caused the “Refuge of Sinners” to abandon the site. At any rate as soon as the Santa Casa moved — the brothers reconciled.

The Holy House now reached its final destination — final, that is, at least to this present date — on Loreto hill — a few miles away from its previous location. Although they weren’t quite sure just what was the story behind it, people began to come in droves to venerate it. In 1295 a strong wall was built around it either for protection or to keep it from escaping their humble grasps and making another nightly excursion! Identification of her sweet little home was clearly unfolded by the “Virgins of Virgins” herself in 1296 to a saintly hermit who lived nearby. Immediately the government of Lecanati sent sixteen of its most reputable citizens to Palestine to investigate the situation. After an absence of months the retinue of homespun scientists returned with the obvious facts. All they found in Nazareth was the spot, still venerated, where the house once stood. The foundation measured up exactly to that of the house of Loreto: thirteen feet by thirty one. The bricks of the local Nazareth habitation were of the same substance as the Holy House, whereas the other Lecanati abodes were completely dissimilar. The Lecanati representatives were convinced — this was the house of the Holy Family, miraculously brought to the shores of Italy through the Will of God and for His Glory.

Since then, it has become the greatest shrine to Our Lady in the world, ranking even greater than Mary Major in Rome. Over 2,000 canonized, beatified and venerable children of the Church have paid homage to the “Singular Vessel of Devotion” by visiting the home in which she was born, and raised the Son of God. These include: St. Ignatius Loyola, St. Francis Xavier, St. John Berchmans, St. Philip Neri, St. Francis de Sales, St. John Capistrano, St. Clement Hofbauer, St. Alphonsus de Liguori, St. Louis de Montfort, St. Benedict Joseph Labre, St. John Neumann, St. John Bosco, St. Therese, Blessed Maximilian Kolbe, Mother Cabrini — just to mention a few. More than fifty Popes have issued Bulls and briefs testifying to its authenticity. Hundreds of Papal documents have granted it privileges, exemptions and authorizations to receive benefits, etc. In 1669 it was given a Mass of its own in the Missal. One of the five litanies approved for public recitation is called after it, the Litany of Loreto.

It is a place of many miracles. Those who have come throughout the ages, beseeching aid from the “Comforter of the Afflicted” usually return home spiritually aided or physically cured. Three successors to the chair of Peter have physically experienced the benevolence of the “Virgin Most Merciful” and were restored to health. They were Pope Pius II, Pope Paul II and Pope Pius IX. Even today cures continue, for Our Lady still exercises her Queenship by interceding for her subjects who implore her aid under the title of Our Lady of Loreto.

Sweet were the days she spent in the little home with Saint Joseph and the Holy Child. Their life within the clay walls was affluent with poverty, resonant with silence and illustrious in humility.

“Her actual life, both at Nazareth and later, must have been a very ordinary one…” said Saint Therese, the Little Flower of Jesus, who once visited the Holy House. “She should be shown to us as some one who can be imitated, some one who lived a life of hidden virtue, and who lived by faith as we do….”

Our Lady of Loreto pray for us!

 
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WHAT WILL THE ‘GREAT SIGN’ OF MEDJUGORJE BE?

When we left off we were discussing the “permanent sign” prophesied to occur at Apparition Hill in Medjugorje, where the Virgin Mary, coming as the Queen of Peace, first appeared in 1981. We had discussed the fact [see previous article] that the sign would be to prove the Blessed Mother appeared here. We had mentioned that according to one seer it would not be a sign in the heavens but “on earth.” We had quoted a seer as saying that it would lead to healings and conversion, that many would come to see it.

“When the permanent sign comes,” seer Jakov Colo once commented, “people will come here from all over the world in even larger numbers. Many more will believe.”

According to Jakov (the youngest of the seers, and one who has all ten promised secrets), “it will be something that has never been on the earth before.”

The permanent sign will be on the hill of apparitions, adds another seer, Mirjana Dragivecic Soldo, and “everybody will be able to see that it’s coming from God, that human hands could not make it.”

The seers—or at least four of them—know the date of it. It’s the only secret we know they share.

But what could it be?

The seers have indicated that there are advance signs of the great sign, and one of them occurred on October 28, 1981. On that night villagers in Medjugorje saw a large fire that seemed to be burning on the hill. Hundreds saw it, including priests and nuns. At the time, the hill was still under guard by Communists who were trying to quash the apparitions. When they investigated, neither police nor firemen could find a trace of fire.

The flames had burned for about 15 minutes but consumed nothing.

There was no sign of it.

Shortly after, the Virgin commented that the incident had mystical significance. “The fire, seen by the faithful, was of a supernatural character,” she said. “It is one of the signs, a forerunner of the Great Sign.”

A sign. A forerunner. A precursor. Does that mean that the great sign will likewise involve light?

Seer Marija Pavlovic Lunetti was once asked about the advance signs and mentioned that “many people see luminary signs.”

But that doesn’t mean the sign will be luminous. Such has never been directly stated. And yet we wonder if it will somehow involve luminiscence. A light near the ground? A prism into the supernatural? A manifestation that people will see from certain angles?

Or something physical, like a healing well?

Could it be something even greater?

At first, the temptation is to say no—that anything greater than the type of phenomena already occurring at Medjugorje would be too blatant and infringe on the test of faith. Anything too obvious would eliminate the need to believe. It doesn’t seem to be the way God usually works. Normally the Lord leaves room for some doubt. Indeed, most great supernatural signs have had limited witnesses, or have been at the edge of nature. With Fatima the great sign was an extraordinary display of the aurora borealis. Believers knew what it was while others described it in a natural way.

Will that be the same at Medjugorje? Will the manifestation be something extraordinary to believers but still something that ardent skeptics will try to rationalize?

Through history there have been remarkable, permanent signs that even modern skeptics, equipped with technology, struggle to explain. The image of Guadalupe, a colored portrait of the Virgin that was miraculously left on a piece of tilma, is one example; the Shroud of Turin is another; and then there is the House of Loreto, which tradition says was supernaturally transported to Italy.

Do these offer us hints?

Is something similar going to appear on Apparition Hill? An image, an object, a healing spring?

Or will it be ethereal?

All we have are little hints. “The sign will be indestructible and permanent,” we repeat from Mirjana “Naturally, it will be clear to everyone that it is not something constructed and erected. Nobody will be able to say that it was brought and placed in that particular spot by, let us say, someone from Medjugorje.”

That still doesn’t tell us if it’s ethereal or physical. And it could fit anything. For example, a healing spring is something that could not be placed there by humans, and many times in history, a sign has been left in the way of just such healing springs. We think of Lourdes, LaSalette, Zarvanystya, Hrushiw, and many historical sites.

But then there are Jakov’s words: something that has never been on the earth before…

New Observer, You quote from scripture, [“Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist”] By your lousy private interpretation of scripture, you then are declaring that St. John the Baptist was greater than Jesus Christ Our Lord God made Man born of the WOMAN. I suggest you stay away from the Bible because the way you interpret it, it will be to your own destruction as St. Peter the First Roman Catholic Pope Decreed. Here is a Quote from scripture, “And it came to pass, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of MARY, that the babe in her womb leapt. And Elizabeth was filled with the HOLY GHOST, and cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Blessed art thou amongst women and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb! And how have I deserved that the Mother of my God should come to me? For behold, the moment that the sound of thy greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb Leapt for joy. And Blessed is she who has believed,”. The Woman clothed with the sun said, “for, behold, henceforth all generations shall call me Blessed;”. Except those of course who loathe her in imitation of satan.

@Angelo —“The Woman clothed with the sun said, “for, behold, henceforth all generations shall call me Blessed.”  Luke 1:48 is NOT prefaced with “The woman clothed with the sun said.”  Mary is talking with her cousin Elizabeth.  I thought you were not allowed to make up your own interpretation?

New Observer, Notice that I did not put quotation marks on The Woman clother with the sun. Those were my words as an act of love for our Most Blessed Lady.

MK - I’ve been chewing on your parable of the heroic fireman risking his life to save a woman on the 3rd floor of a burning building, while another fireman had an opportunity to do so, but he did not act.

Giving acclaim to the heroic fireman for his brave action in the real world, is appropriate.  But in God’s economy, isn’t it giving the impression that “special acclaim” can be attained by Christians by good works?

I know James wrote we are saved FOR good works, and faith without works is dead. I know Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him.  But I can’t see how all the new beliefs about Mary have come about, and I didn’t even know that yesterday, Sept. 12, was the Feast of the Most Holy Name of Mary.  That feast was news to me.  Wow.

I’m finished reading Revelation again, and had one question to throw out to the others on this blog, to get your views.  Will write it in a follow-up post.

Revelation 21:14
“The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation, on which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve apostles* of the Lamb”

My question to anyone: whose apostles names do you think is on the foundations?  Foundations are important.  Judas Iscariot’s name cannot be on it, so the 12th apostle must be either Matthias, or Paul.  Ideas?

Terah,
*****
Good question.  I don’t think we can know. The best we(I) could do is guess.  Since Paul was not one of the 12, I highly doubt it would be him.  I’d guess Matthias.
*****
As for honoring Mary.  We are created in His image and likeness.  The fact that we honor those who “stand out” is likely in imitation of God.  He chose many people to lead…look at Moses.  Thousands of years later, Jesus is still referring to Him with respect.  Same with Abraham.  Clearly Jesus recognizes these men for their extraordinary role in the History of Salvation.  He expects us to do the same.  “The seat of Moses”, “Children of Abraham”...
*****
Mary said yes, true.  And we dance with Joy that she did so.  But we also know that it was because she was singularly Graced…both at conception and during her life.  WE don’t choose to maker her special.  GOD chose to make (create) her special. 
*****
In other words, “A thing is not right, because the Catholic Church says it is right.  The Catholic Church says it is right, because it IS right.” Or “We are not sinners because we sin.  We sin because we are sinners”...in the same way that these “flip” the point of view we take when looking at them, we also must look at Mary from the “other side”...
*****
Mary is not special because we honor her.  WE honor her, because she is special.  It is GOD who gave her this extraordinary distinction.  Not us.  We only recognize it.  To stand in awe of Mary is to stand in awe of God.  Mary did nothing on her own.  It was her cooperation with God that makes her amazing.  She didn’t “earn” anything.  She was given it.
*****
IS ANYONE ELSE HAVING TROUBLE GETTING THIS BLOG TO ACCEPT COMMENTS?  OR IS IT STRICTLY ON MY END?

New Observer (and Terah),

You are so right that many of these “conversations” regress into “you’re a heretic” or “You are your own pope”.  (Although, I’ll pray for you can’t be a bad thing, can it?”  lol I think that this happens on the other end also with “you’re church is created by old men” and “you worship Mary”. 
When I run into people who will not honestly debate (You know who you are Erik/Jerome etal) I too resort to the typical responses.  Which is why it is SO REFRESHING when you meet people (you know who you are New Observer/Terah etal) who are honestly trying to understand a different point of view.  I have learned so much about Protestantism from sincere Protestants who were open and shared what they believe and why.  You guys are the reason I keep entering into these discussions.  I just wanted to say thank you.
***
Angelo, there is a huge difference between ridiculing our faith and simply disagreeing with it.  I have never know N.O. to be disrespectful of our beliefs, only questioning.  There are those who only come here to stir up trouble but I honestly do not believe N.O. or Terah are they.  Be nice. Only with open minds will we ever come to Truth.  For whereever 2 or more of us are gathered in His name, there is Love.

mk, I admire what you wrote in your post of Sept 14, 6:32 AM. On the other hand you, “Have never known N.O. to be disrespectul of our beliefs,..”. If that is true then I have completely misunderstood him. But I disagree that I have been mistaken in understanding what he writes in his comments. This site is for the purpose of true discussion, it is not for the faint of heart. When I comment I do so honestly without using sugar coated words. In the Church we have what is called the “Spiritual Works of Mercy”, these the Church gives us as an obligation, look them up then tell me I have broken some sort of rules. The foundation of my comments are Truth and Justice. Because I truly love the Church, I have never been one to stand idle when Her teachings are attacked or denied. And I assure you I do it all in the Charity God commands.

@Angelo: [“the “Spiritual Works of Mercy”, these the Church gives us as an obligation.”]  The Corporal Works of Mercy are gospel-based because Jesus spoke to them.  Your Spiritual Works of Mercy are church-based.  You have unwittingly spoken to the (your) problem, however.  You refer to them as an “obligation” given by the “church.”  Following Jesus (the Messiah) is not about toeing the line of legalism, but neither am I suggesting one has a license to sin because Jesus has paid for all your sins on Calvary.  We are to walk holy in His presence in our daily life. When you become so centered upon keeping church rules and church laws, you are no better than the Pharisees.  If one gives their life to Christ you will perform both Corporal and Spiritual works *NOT OF OBLIGATION* to the church but out of your love of Christ Jesus.  A mindset which focuses upon the mindset of perfoming works and keeping rules to attain salvation deprives the Lord of the glory and honor due only Him.

New Observer, Likewise the Spiritual works of Mercy are Bible based. To call living the Gospel an act of legalism is the term liberals have used for 45 years in order to justify their defiance of Holy Mother Church. If Loving God and Neighbor is an act of Legalism, then yes, I am legalistic as opposed to being lukewarm. I believe all the Church teaches and I live it out of Love for God and Neighbor. Many believe that obeying Civil Law is legalistic, these society calls “Criminals”. In the Church those who use the “legalism” cop out are called heretics, which is worse that Criminals.

Angelo,

I wasn’t calling you to the carpet. I haven’t even read all of the comments so I have no idea what you have or have not said.  I only know that in my dealings with N.O., he has disagreed yes, but has never been rude. 

N.O.,

I don’t know if I agree with the statement that we are not obligated to God.  I mean, the ultimate goal is to do it ALL out of love and only out of love, but we are children.  2 year olds do the right thing for fear of repurcussions and 15 year old pretend to do the right thing…only when we are adults do we, hopefully, do the right things for the right reasons.  But age has nothing to do with spiritual maturity.  No, doing the right thing will not get you into heaven, but doing the wrong thing or NOT doing the right things, can certainly keep you out.  Besides, I am obligated to God for every breath I take, for my very life, for EVERYTHING.  I don’t think that Angelo means he is hoping to be “good enough” for God.  Just that he will be “good”.  But I don’t really know, as I am not Angelo.  I just know that is what the church means when SHE says we are to “do” these things.

I guess if you look at it as “not doing them is a sin” and we are to avoid sinning at all costs (even tho we KNOW that is a losing battle).

@Angelo:  Please, . . . Stop it.  You really don’t “get it”—do you?  Stop attributing to me things I never said.  Living the gospel is not legalism.  Keeping church rules and regulations is.  If (as you say) Spiritual works of Mercy are Bible-based, then why cannot the church let the gospel stand on its own?  Does the Vatican think Catholics are so ignorant their people cannot understand the words of Jesus?  It’s no wonder non-Catholics think Catholics are centered on toeing the mark in all manner of church rules and invented theology.  For example, I need my throat blessed by St. Blaise to avoid some throat disease.  The Lord told the Hebrews:  “I am the God who heals ALL your diseases.”  St. Blaise cannot heal anyone, only the Lord can.  If I attend Mass for 9 consecutive First Friday’s I ensure some priest will give me Extreme Unction before I die.  Why is that necessary if you are already a child of God?  Why do you need a 6 foot statue of Mary in your backyard garden when the Holy Spirit was given to you at Confirmation?  Isn’t the Holy Spirit more important than Mary?  And here’s one more—you better not die without wearing a Scapular to the Lady of Mt. Carmel.  What happens if you are not wearing one?  I know one Catholic who wears his Scapular when He takes a shower.  (btw, out of respect, I didn’t ask him if he removed his Scapular when he and his wife have sex).  God forbid he does not have a heart attack during marital relations.  This is like the Mormorns who wear secret underwear.  How in the world can you Catholics keep track of all these extra matters and remain focused on Christ?  And since you already have the grace of God, is that not the “fullness” of His grace?  If so, you are being silly when you say you receive “extra” graces.  Grace is grace.  Period.  God provides life abundantly, not piecemeal.

MK - I like your comments and that you write in your own words.  You’re easy to speak with too.  I think you are right that all we can do is guess about the 12 Apostle’s names written on “foundation” of the New Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation 21:14.

I’ve thought about this a lot over the past few days.  My guess is Paul’s name will be written as Apostle 12.  Here’s why:
* Paul defended his right to be called an “apostle” = someone that saw the Risen Jesus, in 1 Corithians, Chapter 9.
* Paul wrote 13 New Testament Letters:
Romans
First and Second Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
First and Second Thessalonians
First and Second Timothy-mentored by Paul, considered his “son” in Christ
Titus
Philemon
(and maybe Hebrews - but the human author is not known)

*As an unmarried man, Paul was able to travel extensively, spreading the Good News of the Gospel, increasing the numbers of the Church.  The first mention of him in Acts is Chapter 9, when he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus and was converted.  There are 28 chapters in Acts.  While Paul is mentioned in Chapters 9-12, Chapters 13-28 are exclusively about Paul’s travels for the church.

In Galatians, Chapt. 1, Paul describes his call to apostleship, detailing how he became to be Apostle to the Gentiles through Chapter 2, verse 10.

About Paul, Peter (Apostle to the Jews) writes “our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.”  2 Peter 3:16.
So Peter, the first Pope, called Paul’s letters “Scriptures”.

All the above draws me to conclude that Paul is the 12th Apostle, and the man whose name is on the 12th foundation of the New Jerusalem.

Another thought I had is the way Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot.  It was by drawing lots.  All the other apostles were by direct call from Jesus, like Paul.  Secondly, the other man that was considered, Joseph called Barsabbas (or Justus), was equally qualified. The draw could have easily gone the other way.  Nothing is said anywhere in Scripture about Matthias or Justus, after the drawing was held.

I’ve thought about this and it reminds me of when God promised Abraham and Sarah a son, and instead of waiting for God to fulfill His plan, Sarah suggested Abraham have a child by Hagar, to speed things up.  Ultimately, Sarah had Issac.  While God used it for His purposes, that was not what God had in mind.  I think that may have been the case with Matthias too, especially because right after Matthias was chosen to replace Judas, the Holy Spirit comes at Pentecost.

So while Matthias (and Justus) may have been good men, and even leaders in the church, based on all he did, and all that’s written about Paul, I think it is Paul’s name that is engraved on the Foundation, as the 12th Apostle in the New Jerusalem.  That’s my guess.  Hope I explained it okay.
Great discussion.  It makes me think!  Thank you.

mk.  Thank you.  You “get it.”  Angelo’s people do not.  The believer’s response is done out of love and gratitude,—not from a mindset of obligation.  A legalist will always never know if he/she has ever done enough or given enough to please God.  How is that insecurity joyful?  The danger of having a works mindset implies “it’s what I do” and takes glory and honor away from what Christ has already done for you.

Terah,

It could go the way you see it, but I don’t think so.  I could be wrong, but I think Catholic Teaching would say that the 12 apostles were given governance over the Church.  What they “bound” under Peter would be bound…and they chose Mathias.  However, your thought process does make sense, in that it was before Pentecost.  However, (again) the Holy Spirit was still working in them, albeit not in the way He worked after Pentecost, so they would still have been being led by Him when they chose Mathias.  Whew.  Also, Paul was an apostle yes, but we are all Apostles by that definition.  We are all called to go forth.  That’s what the word “Mass” means…to be sent.  So Paul was not one of the twelve.  He was the first Apostle to follow after the twelve.  Does that make sense?  In no way does this take away from the amazing stuff that Paul did (and see?  You are honoring him now, just as we honor Mary.  His role was huge, hers was a little bigger).  The thing is that the Twelve, replaced/fulfilled the twelve tribes of Israel.  I’d have to read the story again to really see the sequence.  But that is one reason I love my Church.  On matters that are ambiguous or confusing, I have an Authority, a God Given Authority mind you, to ease my mind.  I trust them, not because they are all knowing or have special powers, but because they were given in a unique way, the power of the Holy Spirit to guide them.  So when they “judge” or “interpret” something, I believe them.  This is exactly the reason that Jesus left a governing Church.  To avoid confusion and protect unity.  That said, the Church does NOT discourage us asking questions and thinking the way that you are.  That is a good thing as it always draws us deeper into the Faith.  And you explained it beautifully.  Using human logic your scenario makes a lot of sense, but it is not the human mind that guides the Church and I have to defer to her.  I’ll ask a priest about this, as it really, really was/is a good question!

N.O.,

You’re welcome.  Although I think Angelo and the like, might “get it” more than you think, it’s just a language thing.  For instance, we don’t expect Blaise to protect us.  We are hoping he’ll put in a good word for us with Jesus.  It’s all about praying for each other and as the Saints are alive as you and I but living on the other side of time, we can ask them to pray for us too.  But the language of the Church can sometimes be misleading.  For instance we often say we’re going to pray “to” Mary when we are really saying we are going to ask Mary to pray FOR us.  But Pray used to be a term of addressing someone…as in Pray tell…I think it’s the old usage that is still in play but it means something totally different in 2012 than it did in 1612.

As for offering up 9 masses in a row.  Numbers have always played a role in Scripture.  40 days, 144, 12, 7, 3…I don’t know the significance of 9, but I could find out.  Keep in mind that when we offer Mass, we are offering Jesus Himself.  Body, blood, soul and divinity.

Look at Mass this way.  Jesus was the “OFFERER”, the High Priest at that FINAL Sacrifice.  Instead of offering cows or bulls or pigeons, He offered Himself.  So picture Him in His priestly robes, standing at the “Altar of Heaven” and in His arms is Himself.  He, as High Priest, is offering Himself up as the Final Offering.  He is both OFFERER and OFFERED.  That moment was “frozen in time”.  The offer stands forever.  It’s like He is standing at that Altar from that moment, holding Himself up, until the end of time.  At every Mass, we go to “that metaphysical place” and enter into that perpetual offering.  We join it.  We place ourselves in His arms and add Ourselves to the offering.  Am I making sense?  But we are here, in time, on earth and have no way of accessing that “place” in any real way.  So in deference to our physical dilemma, God in His graciousness and Mercy, made Himself present to us in a physical way in the form of Bread and Wine.  So we hold Him up in THAT form and make our offering.  If you could take the veil away, you would not see bread or wine, and you would not see a priest.  You would see Jesus Himself, holding Himself up and us along with Him. 

Then we take that Bread and eat it.  Take that Wine and drink it.  Because He is in the “form” He is in, this is doable.  But we are not drinking wine or eating bread.  We are truly, truly, eating His Body and drinking His Blood. 

So first we ask God to miraculously change the “substance” of the bread and wine into Our Lord, then after that happens, we place ourselves into Jesus’ arms and then offer ourselves to the Father.  THEN, we eat/consume (where the word consummate comes from) Him and are united in a very mystical way.

So to Offer up 9 or 29 or 129 Masses for someone is very powerful.  It means we enter the daily Sacrifice many times on behalf of someone we love.  And along with ourselves we offer them up also.

I know that is complicated and it’s hard to explain 2,000 years of History and some very deep theology in a comment box, but that’s the gist of it.

It’s why we read Hebrews very differently from you.

N.O.

Here is a link to the significance of the number “9”.  See, I never would have know that if not for your comment.  I LOVE this blog.

Terah,

Okay, so here is what I found out…Paul is not considered one of the Twelve, as he has a very special role, the Apostle to the Gentiles.  We don’t dismiss him however, or his role.  St Peter and St Paul actually share a feast day.  We see him as just as ‘important” as the Twelve, but he had a different job to do. The Twelve Tribes were replaced by the Twelve Apostles (including Mathias), but that doesn’t in any way diminish Paul importance.

John the Baptist wasn’t one of the Twelve either, but neither you or I would say he was less important.  Might even, most likely was, MORE important.  It’s really about the roles that they filled.  Mary too.  She had a role to fill, she filled it.  Mary Magdalene had a different role to fill.  Priests have a role to fill, but they are no more “important” than I am in the eyes of the Church.  I just fill a different role.  Look at mothers and fathers.  Which is more important?  See?  They are equally important, yet they fill very, very different roles in the family.

Duh…I forgot the link!

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2012/05/what-is-significance-of-novena-why-nine.html

New Observer, Read all that mk says, that is my main response to you. N.O. The Church always makes absolute perfect sense, She has condemned “sola scriptura”. The Church goes by Scripture and Tradition. The Church is a source of great spiritual treasures, many treasures. Mainly the 7 Sacraments, it has many teaching forms, like the Spiritual and Corporal works of Mercy. The Gifts of the Holy Ghost, the Precepts of the Church, the 4 sins that cry out to God for vengeance, the six sins against the Holy Ghost, Nine ways of being accessory to another’s sins, the Capital sins, the Evangelical Counsels ect… These are the Churches teachings from scripture and Tradition. Then there are Sacramentals, Devotions, Novenas, Tridiums, 30 days prayers, Litanies, Pennance, mortifications, the list of virtues and their opposite vices, Indulgences, Pilgramages, processions, Benediction of the Most Blessed Sacrament and a million other treasures. God how I love your Church!!! One more thing, each of the things I mentioned we could never completely study in a million years. The 9 days of prayer known as Novenas, which comes from the Latin meaning 9. This Holy Tradition started on Ascension Thursday, our Lord promised the Paraclete, Our Lady and the diciples prayed for his coming, he came 9 days later. There is where we got the praying of a Novena which has proven to be a great source of Graces for 2000 years.

Angelo,

You’re right about that.  If you started studying today and studied every day until you died, you would even have touched the tip of the iceberg of the Catholic Faith.

Many of the things you named are disciplines, or traditions with a small “t” and we can’t confuse them with Sacred Traditon or Doctrine.  They are important parts of the Church yes, but some of them are take it or leave it…they don’t impact our standing as a Catholic. They are however, wonderful ways of drawing deeper and deeper into union with God. 

Didn’t even touch on it, but there is also the aspect of sacrifices/mortifications as reparation…(repairing)...which is also part of why we “offer up” a Novena or other prayer.

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col 1:24).

But N.O. is right.  We must never imagine that we are chalking up points.  Our aim/goal must always be loving and being loved more fully.  That really is all that matters.  Love.  We may not achieve that.  Sometimes we might just do the right thing because we believe it is right or our duty and that’s not wrong, but it’s not the most right.  As Catholics we try always to do the thing that will achieve the most GOOD.  And there is no greater good, than love.  Because love is not an attribute OF God, Love IS God.  Or God IS Love.

Angelo Angelo my good man,  Why do continue in senseless debates with those perfidious reprobates? Imagine a man who set out a great banquet and invited everyone to a sumptuous feast.. And yet some of the guests said “no thanks just give us 5 bucks and we will go across the street to McDonalds.  And sadly Jesus reaches into his pocket and gives them 5 bucks.  Those who argue against the great graces that God has given us though the sacraments, sacramentals, prayers, the gift of his holy mother, his church etc. are like the McDonald crowd.  When Jesus sent the apostles out remember he told them to stay and spread the good news with those who would receive them.  for those who would not receive them he told them not to shake the dust from their sandals. As you know in that time pavement did not exist and your feet and sandals would be choked with dust. So when someone in that world received you,  as an honored guest, you would shake the dirt from your feet and make yourself at home.  The point being this, doing that which Jesus instructed comes down to; “do not waste your time trying to convince someone’s who’s spirit is unreceptive.”  ( let those who eyes to see-see and those who have ears to hear- hear) YOU HAVE DONE AN EXCELLENT JOB CATECHIZING THEM. Jesus didn’t mince words with Harrod, Pilot,  Chiapas, the woman at the well or anyone.  Jesus gave the facts straight out and moved on.  Angelos in your ardent desire to show these protestant reprobates and phony Catholics the great light of God you have inadvertently swerved into Satan’s, trap.  You are being tag teamed. ( back up and think about what I am saying) You have given them a boat load of information. It is up to them to use it or lose it!  I recommend you rebuke them in the name of Jesus and move on. There are plenty other starving souls who will benefit from your knowledge and selfless love. In addition, plenty of other blogs so no doubt you will soon find them again under some other alias.  Remember,  there are more than an abundance of unholy seminar bloggers who are so disingenuous as to not use their real names.  Well done Angelo.  Is it not time for silence as in our lord’s example?

Yours in Christ
Thomas

mk, When I spoke of some of the treasures of the Church, they all have their bases on scripture and tradition. You are correct one could take them or leave them. Its best to take them. As for Chalking up points, this is a term used by liberals to either deny or dilute the truth of the Church. Chist speaks of storing up treasures for heaven and saying your reward will be greater in heaven. In scripture it speaks that God rewards all good even saying 100 fold. A priest taught me that in heaven (if we make it there) all will have the same degree of happiness but not the same degree of Glory. The Church teaches about Merit and Meritorious acts. This teaching is Divine law.

mk, I had trouble with my computer, I tried to submit my response about 7 times. I wanted to make clear that the Church teaches about merits and meritorious acts. It is what is decribed in scripture as rewards from God for good works that we do in this life. Liberals downplayed the idea of merits, but it is the teaching of the Church that comes from Scripture and Tradition. We must never allow to pass by the opportunity to do works that are meritorious. As they are what Christ refers to, “Store up for yourselves treasures for heaven”

Angelo,

Thank you for telling me about the trouble you had getting your comments accepted.  I won’t waste anymore time trying to “clean up” my computer as we now know that it is not on my end, but NCR’s.

Meritous works…yes.  We will be rewarded.  But we mustn’t confuse being rewarded for our good deeds AFTER we enter paradise, with using our good deeds to get us INTO paradise.  You see? I think the latter is what N.O. is contesting.  Protestants too, believe that we will be “rewarded” after we enter heaven.  The difference for them is that once you “believe”, you are guaranteed entrance.  We don’t believe that.  As I said, while there is nothing we can DO to merit entrance into heaven, there is lots we can do to prohibit that same entrance.  Protestants don’t believe that.  Once you believe, the say, NOTHING can keep you out of heaven.  This is know as the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” OSAS.  But even putting that aside, doing the right thing just to get rewarded is still not the highest reason for doing them. 

There are different reasons for doing the right thing, or not doing the wrong thing.  All of them are “good”.  Some people do the right thing to avoid punishment.  (I don’t speed because I might get a ticket)  Some do the right thing, because it is the “law” and they respect the law.  (I don’t speed because that would be breaking the law and the laws are what keep a society “civil”)  Some do the right thing because they will be rewarded (The teenager who cleans his room to “earn” his allowance) But some people do the right thing, because and only because, it IS the right thing to do.  They seek Truth and Righteousness for it’s own sake.  Reward or no reward, punishment or no punishment…it doesn’t matter.  Heck, they would do the “right” thing even if it meant LOSING a reward, or still being punished.  As Catholics, the highest praise we can give to God is to do the right thing because we love Him.  Am I making sense?

So while no one would fault you (or anyone else) for looking forward to being rewarded for your “good deeds”, I think what N.O. is saying is that it is better to let union with God be it’s own reward.

mk, I understand what you are saying. Yes, all must be done out of love for God, There is a Saint who said, “When love is lacking, then the fear of hell suffices.” When I first began to seek to do God’s will it was out of fear of hell. I learned to love God by knowing him and serving him. I know by what the Church teaches that there are meritorious works. If I try to accomplish them it is not for the sake of reward but because it is my desire to please God and him alone. If God promises reward then I accept it because it is his will and desire to grant them. It is a good thing to seek reward, it is a desire for Heaven. Something the Church teaches we must all have. I desire heaven, but there is no guarantee that I’ll obtain it as God has given us all a freewill and heaven is something we could all lose. So I place my trust in God’s mercy and I take our Third Order Carmelite’s Motto seriously “Sub Tutela Mater” under a Mothers protection. I will be honest about N.O., I don’t trust his ideas of who God is. Unles he submits himself to the teachings of the Church then maybe I’ll take him seriously, in the meantime I pray our lord to grant him Mercy and to grant him health and salvation.

If I try to accomplish them it is not for the sake of reward but because it is my desire to please God and him alone.

Exactly.  I think sometimes our language doesn’t do a very good job of communicating what we actually mean.  Some of it is archaic and to the uninitiated ear it can sound like we are saying something we are not.  That, I think, is N.O.‘s objection…

MK, I give no credibility to what New Observer has to say. As for what I said, being archaic or not is what I truly believe. What I stated is spiritual which one always runs the risk of being misunderstood. Gotta go my Daughter is being taken by ambulance. PLEASE pray for her.

Eternal Father we offer you the body blood soul and divinity or your dearly beloved son our Lord Jesus Christ of in atonement for out sins and the well being of Angel’s daughter.

For the sake of his sorrowfull passion have mercy on Angelo and his daugthter.

Holy God holy mighty one holy immortal one have mercy on Angelo’s daughter and the whole world.

Holy God holy mighty one holy immortal one have mercy on Angelo’s daughter and the whole world.

Holy God holy mighty one holy immortal one have mercy on Angelo’s daughter and the whole world.
Amen

@Angelo:  [“I will be honest about N.O., I don’t trust his ideas of who God is. Unles he submits himself to the teachings of the Church then maybe I’ll take him seriously.”]    MY ideas?  ???  Is He not revealed,—His Nature, His character, His faithfulness, His mercy, His compassion, His love, His justice, His promises; all in His word and through His Son?  “Who” is God, Angelo?  What God do YOU worship, Angelo?

@Angelo:  [“MK, I give no credibility to what New Observer has to say.”]  Really?  That’s interesting.  Why do you say that? 

I will pray, however, and lift her up to the Lord so that He will protect your daughter being taken by ambulance this afternoon.

@mk:  Thanks for your endorsement.  A mindset of meritorious works viewed as “earning” is false worship.  One would be then applying glory and honor upon self.  One would thus be robbing Christ of the honor due only Him because of the Cross.  Even unbelievers do good works.  A true disciple of Christ should have zero concern regarding any rewards to come.  We simply obey God and leave everything else in His hands.

@mk:  OSAS is not exactly what you describe.  A declaration of belief does not grant you license to now sin to your heart’s delight.  Moreover, has the person also committed his/her life to Christ in submission and obedience?  Has the person rightly chosen to walk holy in His ways?  Has the person denied his/her very self and taken up their cross to follow the Lord?  The cross of self denial is to yield your will to His in all things.  Such discipleship is not taken cavalierly.

N.O.,

No, absolutely not, I don’t think you believe that you can sin to your hearts content after professing belief.  I am not one of those who believes your Faith journey ends where it begins.  Sorry if it came across that way.  You do, I believe I have this right, believe that even if you do err or “fall away” for a time, your salvation will not be lost.  Is that correct?  This is not the same as taking your salvation for granted.  It just means that once you believe, heaven is yours for the taking.  But it would be a very lame Christian indeed (and one could rightly suspect their original “belief” if he were to simply give lip service to his Faith. 

Your belief however is different than ours.  Your salvation is worked out in an instant, whereas we see salvation as a process.  A lifelong process.  It ain’t over til the fat lady sings, so to speak.  We can lose our salvation at anytime.  By rejecting what we used to profess, by choosing sin, willfully and knowingly.  While we often misunderstand OSAS to mean you have free reign once you “accept Jesus”, your side often misunderstands our belief that you can lose your salvation.  You would say we are “working” our way into heaven, and we would say no, we are trying not to LOSE our ticket.  For us Faith and Works cannot be separated.  And one without the other does not a Saint make.  Mother Tersa could have done everything exactly the same, but not believed and chances are good she’d never see the beatific vision.  She’d just be a good social worker, but not a Christian. On the other hand, someone who goes to Mass everyday of the year and confession once a week, but never feeds the hungry or visits the sick, is equally in jeopardy of spending eternity without God.  Why?  Not because these good deeds earn us anything, but because as we said, we are living “LOVE”.  Love without God is empty, and God without Love is the same.  Faith without works is empty, and works without Faith is the same.  Not earning.  Living.

Angelo,

Good Heavens!!!  I hope she is okay.  Let us know.  Prayers headed your way…

Tom Stulc, MK and New Observer, Thank you very much for your prayers, they helped my daughter and us a great deal. She has been complaining of back pain for a week. Today she had a severe sudden pain in her back and collapsed. She got up and staggered to the Kitchen and collapsed again, becoming delirious. She was taken by Ambulance to the Hospital. She is home resting now, they will continue to run tests to find out what the cause of this pain is. For now she must get complete rest and take the pain medication prescribed to her. Again, Thanks for your prayers, Heaven heard them and God was attentive to our supplications. Deo Gratias!

Ooooh…that sounds painful.  I’ll keep her in my prayers until you know what caused/is causing it.  Is she little?  Or a “grown” daughter?

mk:  I am one who cannot see a “true” child of God, a disciple committed to Christ ever falling away.  Thus I would take exception to the example you mentioned.  It would not be within the character of a said believer truly Born Again.  Many Christian people will say they are OSAS, however, in my experience talking with these people, they are not in a saved condition.  They either have been incorrectly taught or simply desire “Feel Good” Christianity.  Eternal security for the believer is paramount.  And only the Holy Spirit provides that conviction —not a church, not a minister.  There are too many gospel passages which underscore security in Christ for those who are committed to Him.  Every man and woman will need to answer ultimately who Christ is—and did your life both reflect and honor Him with a servant’s character.  Based upon Matthew 7:13-14, it appears relatively few people from *eternity past* to *eternity future* will actually be saved.  Jesus said:  “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.  BUT—small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”  This passage should make people take notice be they Catholic, Protestant or Evangelical.  “AND ONLY A FEW FIND IT.”  Cavalier or lukewarm Catholics or Christians need to take their relationship with Christ far, far more seriously than they do.  Faith in one’s local or even institutional church is not the same as your personal commitment to Christ.  The church is a help, but it does not supersede a man or woman’s need to have personal intimacy with Christ.

@Angelo:  I am pleased to hear the good news concerning your daughter.  May the Lord watch over her and provide His healing for her complete recovery.

doesn’t sound like spinal meningitis.  Have had lower back surgery my self and her symptoms doesn’t sound like that because lower back issues start slow and progressively get worse.  a badly pinched nerve where nerves exit the opening in the lower spinal column can do that. If such it will be extremely hard to see with scans.  but that is why doctors get the big bucks and I don’t
Good luck.
I keep unconsciously clutching my scapular and miraculous medal after your daughters issues was mentioned.  hummmm not ever one of my subconscious habits at all.  I have plenty but not that one.

N.O.,
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So many things to address.  The “Church” isn’t a building, or the priests or the rules.  The “Church” is the Mystical Body of Christ.  That’s not just a phrase.  So to say She is a “help”...well, that is to miss the point.  That is like saying my arms and legs are a help to my mind.  You can no more separate the Church and Jesus than you can the body and soul (or for that matter Love and God, or Faith and Works).  That are one and the same.  To love Jesus IS to love the Church and to love the Church IS to love Jesus.  This is the meaning of the entire passage in Ephesians.
*
This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
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5:23-33, all of it, is speaking exactly about what I am saying.  This is why unity is imperative.  The split in the Catholic Church reminds of the scene is the Wizard of Oz after the flying monkeys carry Dorothy away…where the Scarecrow says “First they took my arms, and they threw them over there.  Then they took my legs and they threw them over there” to which the Tinman replies “That’s you all over the place!”.  How can a body function when it is scattered? 
*
You cannot have a relationship with the “head” if you do not have a relationship with the body.  To make the “sign of the cross” we must love vertically (the relationship between us and God) and horizontally (the relationship between each other).  This is the only way to form the cross. 
*
Then too, our “relationship” with Jesus is that of bride and groom.  What is the most intimate act that a bride and groom perform?  Sexual intimacy. As Paul says, the two become one, FLESH.  Now how does one become the “FLESH” of Our Lord.  How do we “consummate” our relationship with Him?  The answer, of course, is the Eucharist.  Flesh to flesh.  Two becoming one flesh.  I don’t know how you can have a more intimate relationship with someone.  So when you say that the Church does not supersede personal intimacy with Christ, I have to shake my head, for it is the Church and the Church alone that brings me Jesus in the flesh and affords me the singular opportunity to become one with Him.  It simply doesn’t get more intimate than that. 
*
And what is born out of the union of man and woman?  New Life. (children; love in the flesh).  What then, is born of union (through the Eucharist) with Jesus?  Why New Life of course.
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I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
*
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
*
I agree wholeheartedly, that we ALL need to take our relationship with the King of the Universe more seriously.  He is not a philosophy, or a game, or a comforting story.  He does not bend to our will.  He was not created in our image and likeness.  Fall on our knees, indeed.
*
The thing is, we don’t think Protestants have it “wrong” so much as they don’t have enough.  In the same way that the Jews loved and followed God with their whole heart and soul (and many still do today), but fall short of the full Truth by denying the second half of the story, I see Protestants (who also love and follow God with their whole heart and soul) as only utilizing one corner of the big picture.  To deny the sacraments, to deny the Eucharist, is to deny the very heart of who Jesus is, just as for the Jews, to deny Jesus is to deny the very heart of God.
*
Lastly, (and I’m sorry this was so long), when you say ” Eternal security for the believer is paramount.  And only the Holy Spirit provides that conviction —not a church, not a minister.  There are too many gospel passages which underscore security in Christ for those who are committed to Him.”, I do not disagree.  But again, I would take it further.  WE cannot follow Him worthily on our own.  You are right that only the Holy Spirit can sustain us.  And what does the Holy Spirit give us?  Grace.  We cannot follow Jesus without Grace.  The initial Grace received at Baptism, or the subsequent Graces received in the Sacramental Life.  It is not enough to “believe”.  One must recharge, often, through the Sacraments.  Give us this day our DAILY BREAD.  (Do you know that that line actually translates to “Give us this day our super SUBSTANtial Bread”?  Every time I go to confession or receive the Eucharist, I am given sanctifying Grace…I am given new strength to go on.  It is like being baptized all over again.  I am, like Our Lady, filled with Grace.  It is that Grace and not my Faith that allows me to keep my mouth shut when that guy cuts me off in traffic.  It is that Grace that allows me to go weekly to the Nursing Home.  Or to make yet another dinner for my large family.  It is Grace that gets me through my son’s drug addiction or my father’s death.  Not MY Faith, but HIS Grace.
*
But without the Church, there is no transmission of these Graces.  The Church is the conduit, the mediator between Jesus and myself.  The way in which the invisible is made visible through the physical.  To say I don’t need the Church is to say I can do it “on my own” and I think we’d both agree that that is impossible.  As impossible as a camel going through the eye of a needle.

MK, New Observer and Tom Stulc, My daughter MaryJessie (Maria de Jesus) named after Our Lady who stood at the foot of the Cross, is 15 years old. Her pain is mainly in her upper left back, and causes her legs to become numb. Yesterday the pain came suddenly with a sharpness that caused her to collapse twice. For now she is to rest and take the pain medication until further tests are scheduled. My wife and I are very gratefull to all of you. I told my Daughter MaryJessie this morning of your prayers, she will now respond to you in her own words;

Dear MK, New Observer and Tom Stulc, thank you for your prayers. This morning, the pain I usually had was much more severe. I thought if I took my pain medication, it would stop, and everything would be fine again. Then I fell; I thought I just slipped on the tile, and it didn’t worry me. I got up and went to the kitchen, and suddenly, there was a stabbing pain that went through my entire back. I collapsed, but this time, I couldn’t get up. My mom and younger sister had to help me to a chair. My dad called an ambulence, and they had to practically carry me to the gurney. When I was in the hospital, I was so scared; I didn’t know what was wrong with me. Everyone was nice, though. Then I heard the best news ever-I could go home! I think it was you’re prayers that helped me, so thank you from the bottom of my heart. I truly appreciate all of you.
        Gratefully yours,
          Maryjessie

Maryjessie,

What a BEAUTIFUL name.  Mine is Mary Kay (Kay is short for Kathleen).  What a blessing to be named after Our Lady.  What a responsibility!
*
I’m glad you got to go home, but it sounds as if there is more “work” ahead.  I won’t stop praying til I hear that they have found what is causing this and fixed it.
*
You sound like such a beautiful young woman. I too have a 15 year old daughter (what an amazing age…one foot still in girlhood and the other firmly planted in womanhood.) Her name (of course) is Mary.  Mary Pat (Patricia).  I can imagine how your father must feel, proud and afraid, as I would feel the same.  Rest, both in bed, and in God, and keep us updated.  Oh. And give your wonderful dad a BIG hug!

Maryjessie what a wonderful name.  And you are only 15.  My daughter turned 25 on Friday the 14th this month and my Mom’s birthday is on Sep 13, The 13th day of the month is out ladies day.  You will be fine I had a lower back operation to correct the same thing.  and my Brother got the same condition and with pinched off nerves. ( He olny needed shots of cortisone to treat that) Unusual a shot of cortisone in the inflamed area will clear it up.  sorry about the pain.
Maryjessie you take care of your POPS he is a good one

Maryjessie: I’m so glad you are feeling better now and that you had so many people praying for you and your family.  I agree with the others, that your dad is special.  It is admirable for a man (especially a father!) to take his faith so seriously.  God honors that, wanting everyone to love Him with our hearts & our minds, and in order to love Him, we must first know Him, and understand Him.  I too, have enjoyed having a father and mother that took their faith seriously.  They passed it on to my younger brother & myself & although we worship at different churches, what we have in common is that we all want to learn more & more about Jesus, and we are all abiding in the Body of Christ, like all the people in this blog.  I’m glad you contributed too, and we were all praying for you.

Pope Benedict is preaching falsefood. There is no Our Lady of Guadalupe. The Virgin Mary was NOT a Hispanic woman. Her name was not a Hispanic one as “Guadalupe.” Mary was a Jew, from the Tribe of Judah. When her Son, Yahshuah (Jesus) was born, Herod sought to kill Him. Joseph took Mary and young Yahshuah to Africa to hideout. If Mary was a Hispanic woman, she would have easily stood out among Africans.

Again, she was a Jew. Not Jew-ish, but a Jew, period. A Jewish is a Believer that practices the custom/heritage of Jews. They are not Jews by blood but by custom/heritage. Mary and Joseph and their Son Yahshuah was bloodline Jews of the Tribe of Judah. That makes them Jews. Again, not Jewish.

Mary was a descendant of Ethiopia. A Roman Historian named, Tacticus mention the Jews of the Roman/Jewish War of 66 A.D. to 70 A.D. He described the Jews as a people of Ethiopia descent. That make Mary a BLACK JEW. Not a Mexican, not a European, not an Asian but a BLACK JEW.

The Woman Clothed with the Sun represents the MOTHERS of the Hebrew Nation. Mary was a Hebrew of the Tribe of Judah. Only a Hebrew of the Tribe of Judah can be called a Jew. There’s a difference between the House of Judah and the House of Israel. The House of Israel are all the tribes except: Judah, Benjamin and Levi. Though both groups are Hebrew Israelites, only the Tribe of Judah are Jews, aside from being Hebrew Israelites as well.

The Woman Clothed with the sun is not representative of a physical Church. Maybe spiritually but the Woman Clothed with the Sun is no other than the Hebrew Nation. The 12 stars are the 12 Tribes of Israel that the Hebrew Mothers gave birth to. That’s who the Woman Clothed with the sun is.

And today, the physical descendants of the ancient Hebrew Nation are the Blacks of the Western Hemisphere: America, Americas and the Caribbean Islands and scattered to the four corners of the earth. We know this by the curses of Deuteronomy 28:13-68 that matches the conditions of the Blacks in America.

You can choose to believe the pagan religion under Catholism all you want but the scriptures are clear. It does not denied the identity of this Woman and her offspring, which is the Hebrew Nation of Blacks of the Western Hemisphere. The exodus out of Judeau speaks to our past as we were persecuted by the Romans in the Roman/Jewish War.

We fled to Africa and then West Africa and stayed there for a “time, times and half a time” until the Transatlantic Slave Trade where we were brought over to America, Americas and the Caribbean Islands. The curses of Deuteronomy 28:13-68 testifies of the true Hebrew Nation of the Woman Clothed with the sun.

Huh!  this blog should have been dead weeks ago. 
Jahlz, did you fall out of tree and land on your head.
How long have you been listening to Louis Farrakhan!!!!
Blogs, aren’t they great,  they bring out all the folks with cracks in their bells.

Tom Stulc, Are you not one of the most frequent posters? I don’t agree all commentors have “cracks in their bells”, its only a few tom Stulc’s, here and there.

Angelo, Yes indeed I am a frequent poster,  try as I might I don’t suffer fools easily. 
TS

Tom Stulc, The only one you suffer easily is of course your very own self.
You insult the posters and when you are compared to your very own words, then its all about hurt feelings! Get over it!

Jahiz, For you there is no Virgen of Guadalupe, but for at least 100 Milliom Mexicans, not including European, and South Americans and Many US Americans, she in fact exists. As the Mexican Bishops said of a certain German Bishop, “If he does not want a Mother thats his fallacy, But we have a Mother, Our Lady of Guadalupe.”

Wow. I mean, consider the historical facts here…..Yahshuah (Jesus) came to earth between 5 B.C. to 5 A.D. The Jews of that time were Black Jews. If Mary was this, “Our Lady of Guadalupe”, how did she ended up with a Hispanic name? She was a Black Hebrew, Jew. The name “Guadalupe” is Latin. There is NO Hebrew name of “Guadalupe.”

Just like the Greeks gave Yahshuah a Greek name in Jesus, they gave Mary one in Mary. In Latin, Guadalupe. That does not mean that was her Hebrew name. Greeks are the Gentile people, so are Mexicans. That’s why you have Greek/Latin text as one and Hebrew/Aramaic together as one.

Hebrews are Blacks and Arabs. The closest to a Mexican would have been the Sephardic Jews who are the descendants of Edomites. And the fact Mary took baby Yahshuah to Egypt to escape King Herod, testifies to the fact they were a dark-skinned people of Ethiopian descent. If Mary was White or a European-looking Mexican, she would have stood out among the Blacks of Egypt, in Africa.

@Jah1z:  You’ve been taking some bad Crank, Sunshine Loops or Angel Dust.

It’s funny how I point out historical facts and are met with name-callings. Yet, can any of you disputes the facts I point out? Of course you can’t! Your religion is a pagan one and you been brainwashed believing Mary is, “Our Lady of Guadalupe.”

You couldn’t find ONE Mexican or a Catholic Priest that can trace this, “Our Lady of Guadalupe” as a Mexican lady in year 5 B.C. to 5 A.D., belonging to the Hebrew tribe of Judah. You won’t find ONE document of support showing the Jews of the Roman/Jewish war of 66 A.D. to 70 A.D. were a Mexican ancestry. Not ONE.

THE fact is, the Jews of that era were Blacks. It is facts. As I shared, a Roman Historian named, Tacticus, mentioned the Jews as people of Ethiopian descents.

The fact you doubters can’t accept this is because of your racist-bias. It’s the same racist-bias that blinds you from.seeing that the Bible is a Black Man’s history. The 12 Tribes of Israel were BLACK tribes. The Red Dragon were the Caucasian ethnicity of Romans. Mexicans weren’t an ethnicity just yet. It was just Spaniards then.

I’m not saying there wasn’t a lady named Guadalupe. No, I’m saying, this “Guadalupe” woman was NOT Mary of the Bible who brought forth the Man Child in Yahshuah (Jesus).

@Jah1z:  Sorry, but it’s not our job to prove a negative.  The onus to demonstrate evidence is on you.

Casting Clowns,

Riight! It’s your job to keep spreading lies. Like Yahshuah said, “you are of your Father children for he is the Father of Lies. Satan is your Father if you believe the “Our Lady of Guadalupe” nonsense. And Mary of the Bible was not her name. They knew her as the Black Madonna.

Of course your pagan religion know this but prefer a Caucasian Virgin of the Black Modonna. Why? Because it make your royal-less blood feel important. Consider this, O Stupid Clown, who is the rulers of this world? Are not they the Caucasian ethnicity? Like YOUR people? You are a Gentile nation, and being used as Satan’s agents to control the world, just as the Bible prophecized.

You want truth? Start with the KJV, 1611 Edition, or the Torah. Get out of the Talmudic teaching like those fake, counterfeit Jews of modern-day Israel embrace. That’s satanic. It’s bent on a racial ideology to usurp the true identity of the Hebrew nation, whom were BLACKS. The best you can be as a Gentile Believer, is a spiritual child of the true faith of the God of Israel, God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of Jacob. And His name is Yah. As your pagen bible notes as Yahweh.

Now, do as I say, Clown, and save yourself. You don’t have to thank me, either. Thank the true God of Israel that a Hebrew brother was gracious enough to stop by this site and drop some knowledge.

Shalom

@Jah1z:  You seem intent on playing the race card.  Why?  Assuming you are a “Hebrew” brother, if Mary was known as the Black Madonna, she still would have had an actual name.  People from the Middle East are Semitic so very likely Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and all peoples from the region were far more dark skinned than Hollywood movies and Renaissance artists have drawn them as “white folk.”  Whether Mary was Black, Orange, Green or Blue is immaterial to OT salvation history and the saving gospel of Jesus Christ.  Jesus said “Salvation is of the Jews”—thus Gentile followers of Yeshua HaMashiach have all been grafted in.  I assume you know what Dispensationalism is?  I reject that as well.

Jahiz, You need to learn some Mariology. Mary is Mother of all humanity. In her apparitions She appears as a Mother to the seer. At Fatima she appeared as a young Portuguese maiden, at Lourdes a French maiden, in Germany as a German maiden, in Akita Japan a Japanese maiden, in Mexico as a Aztec maiden ect… By biblical scholors who study the historical elements of scripture, Jesus and Mary were Olive skinned, the most beautiful complexion there is. Olive colored skin is a light olive brown. I have seen a few people with this complexion, and I have to say it is captivating. If the color of Jesus and Mary is not of importance as eternal salvation as you say, then why do you keep making a big deal about it.

Angelo,

You ask “why do I keep making a big deal out of it” yet, you pushing this false doctrine of a, “Our Lady of Guadalupe.” I just gave you the historical origins of the Biblical Mother of Yahshuah (Jesus). Why can’t you embrace the facts that the Jews of 66 A.D. to 70 A.D. of the Roman/Jewish war were a Black ancestry?

The Biblical Mother of Yahshuah is not the mother of all humanity. Point out in the scriptures where it says she’s the Mother of all humanity. Eve is the mother of all humanity. This, I can point out in the scriptures. Understand?

This is the typical racial ideology of the Caucasian ethnicity. They prop these White-Jesus portraits, who is no other than Cesare Borgia and want to holler, “What does it matter what color Jesus was.” If it doesn’t matter, why are you portraying him as a White man when you know he isn’t? He was a Jew. I gave evidence of the Jews background during Rome and they were Blacks. Yet, I’m suppose to be wrong for pushing the truth and correcting your falsehood???

Stop your lies and falsehoods and there won’t be an issue.

Casting Clown,

I tell you the truth, if you listen to this Hebrew Brother (me), you will be able to verified everything I’ve said to be scripturally correct from the 1611 K.J.V. Edition of the Bible. I have no incentives (or intentions) to lie to you. Im a Hebrew Israelite whether you believe it or not. Your Caucasian ethnicity have every incentive to lie because; what they doing is usurping the heritage/identity of the true descendants of Hebrew Israelites.

And you couldnt begin to understand what’s a Semitic. Did you know that was created by Rabbinical Teachers that practices Talmudic teaching?  Listen to me. Only those of the House of Judah can be semitic. A Jew is not of the House of Israel, only the House of Judah. The House of Judah consist of 3 Tribes: Judah, Benjamin and Levi. They are Semitic.

Furthermore, not even the House of Judah refers to themselves as “Semitic.” Only Caucasians and those counterfeit Jews of Israel use that word to lay claim to the House of Judah. Yah (God) knows all things. They will pay for what they have done in the appointed time.

Yahshuah (Jesus) said—“I know those that call themselves Jews and are not, but the Synagogue of Satan.” I know thy tribulation and poverty but thou art rich.”

Now think, “tribulation and poverty.” Who in the Western Hemisphere of the U.S.A. have always been poverty and tribulation? Think not that it is your brethren. No, but do understand, Deuteronomy 28:15-68 testifies to no other but the descendants of Jews, whom fled Rome for Africa and later sold to America as slaves. Those curses of Deuteronomy speaks of their “tribulation and povery” and much more. It even prophecized how words like “niggers and Negros” would be described about us.

Read the specific scripture I gave to you and consider with a wise mind who could fit line for line of “all” thise curses. Again I would not have you ignorant.

Last thing, the period from B.C. to early A.D. was a dramatically different demographic….landscape from where they are today. You can not look at Biblical history as you see the world today, in their respective country. An Olive Skin color was not the color describe about the ancient Hebrew Israelites. If it is, please point out the scriptures?

Job - “My skin is black unto me.”

Solomon - “Look not at me for I am black.”

Yah - ” O Israel, art not thou as children of Ethiopia unto me.”

Jahiz, Now I see! You are not Roman Catholic, which is the continuation of the Jewish faith. Tell us, do see Mary as the Queen and Mother of the Jews or not?

Angelo,

You speak of what you do not know nor understand. The Roman Catholic Church is PAGAN. I would want no part of that faith. Let me teach you something. Yah never instituted “religion.” Yah only gave the Ten Commandment, the Laws and Instructions.

We are to live by the Covenant made with Abraham. The Roman Catholic faith is under Judaism. Judaism is no where in the Bible. Judeo-Christianity is flawed. You speak of this “Jewish faith” and yet, do not know what you talking about. To be Jewish is to be a Believer that practices the CUSTOM/HERITAGE of Jews. Who are Jews? I already covered who is a Jew. What is their faith? Their practice is to live by faith, the Covenant, the Ten Commandment, Laws and Instructions as explained in the Book of Exodus.

Instead of this, Caucasians, counterfeit Jews of Israel and those of the Roman Catholic Church practices Talmudic teaching. There is nothing in Bible about “Talmudic principles.” It is made-up by the White man, descendants of Esau/Edomites who went on to start this Khazaria empire in 600 A.D. - 800 A.D. They are “converts” to the faith but use their own made-up version of the true Jews’ practices. They usurp the true Jews and turned their practices into a racial identity; calling themselves “true Jews” of the Bible and practices things that are blasphemous to the Most High.

Things like, the “Our Lady of Guadalupe”, a White Jesus, a White Isaac and the 12 Tribes of Israel being White. The Pope adorn themselves like godheads and think they plate privileged or ordained to forgive ones sins in what they call, “making confessions.” They have their rewards!

Jahiz, So you admit you are not a Roman Catholic, the religion founded by Yeshua, God made man, born of Miriam the New Eve, Mother of all the living. You are trying to teach us our Catholic Faith in which you do not even belong to. You speak as a wannabe sage, and you do a very bad job of it. Your arguments are ludicrous to say the absolute least. Why don’t you rather go and preach to the Islamic people. Lets see how they will respond to your blasphemies!

“God made man, born of Mariam the new Eve, Mother of all the living.” Hahaha…you even contradict your own statement. Why would Yah make man born of a “new Eve” when Yah said,

“Let us make Man in our image, after our likeness”?

This is another example of your foolish belief. The “New Eve” is about living with faith. These are deeper understandings you and your Catholic faith have perverted. As a Hebrew Israelite, I know more about your pagan religion than you do. You said Yahsuah found the Catholic church but that’s nowhere in the Bible. In fact, he only came to the lost children of Israel and to fulfill the Law and died for our sins that we may be saved if we believe in him.

It’s pointless continuing this debate with you. Just remember, a Hebrew Israelite came to you and tried to help you.

Shalom

Angelo, once again you lack a fundamental understanding of scriptures. Again, the mother of Yahshuah is NOT the mother of all living. If she was, Mary would be Adam’s wife.

Again, listen to me, Mary BY FAITH is the new Eve. Understand? Just like Yahshuah the new Adam where the first man died of sin, through Yahshuah, salvation is attainable for all mankind. These are not difficult understandings yet, you make it difficult according to your own mind and imagination. The scriptures are clear. Man’s reasoning is not.

Another thing, point out in the Bible where it is said that Yahshuah found the “Roman Catholic Church.” Yahshuah made it clear in scriptures that he only came to the lost sheeps of Israel and to FULFILL the Law. What is the Law? The Ten Commandment, the Laws/Instruction and the Covenant.

Yahshuah, on earth, lived accordingly to the Covenant, the Commandment and Laws/Instruction. He did not live according to his own imagination because he came to fulfill the Law, to be perfect. Thus he died for our sins that we may live if we believe in him. For the limited-nature of your understanding, I stop there.

Just know this, Yahsuah came to the lost sheeps of Israel to shew those things to the Hebrew Nation and the 12 Disciples, that they may teach the rest of the Gentile nations. For salvation was through us. By that, we knew the Laws, the Faith, the Covenant to live by. The Gentile nations did not. It was the Hebrew Israelites’ job to teach the heathens, whom are the Gentiles.

This is my last response to you. You criticize a brother that has been sincere with you and told you nothing but the truths and yet, you still think I’m wrong when all I said can be verified by the scriptures and by historical facts. This is the behavior of a typical racist, with a racial-identity complex that sees his own “whiteness” as superior than all others. Consider…. how do you continue to support a Roman Catholic church that hides over 30,000 original Hebrew manuscripts in the Vatican Library? And won’t tell the public why.

How do you continue to support a Roman Catholic Church that exploits little children…..rape them and then try to cover it up?

I can go on and on. As I told you earlier, you don’t know what you talking about. As a Hebrew Israelite, I know more about your religion than you do. Smh.

Jahiz, Your a non-catholic trying to preach to Catholics? No need to answer all your rediculous ideologies! I’m a Roman Catholic and nothing will change that, all the errors of the world won’t change my faith.

Let’s give jahxxx some room here - he’s a well read person who obviously has figured out how to interpret scriptures (sound familiar). Even though he is a troll, maybe we can learn from his experience in scholarly scripture research. Perhaps he can somehow finagle a one on one with the Pope and convince his Holiness the errors of the church for the last 2,000 years. After all, it was the church who put together the books of the Bible but let’s not let that get in the way.

The woman of Rev 12 is now here. She is not a church, she is not Israel, and she is not Mary. She is the prophet like unto Moses and Elijah Matt 17:3, Acts 3:21-23, Luke 1:17 delivering the true word John 1:1 from the wilderness Rev 12:6 to prepare a people for the Lord’s return. God our Father will not put any child of his into a hell fire no matter what their sins. It never entered the heart or mind of God to ever do such a thing Jer7:31, Jer 19:5. Turn your heart to the children of God. A gift is now delivered to the whole world as a witness Matt 24:14. http://minigoodtale.wordpress.com Prove all things.

Can Val know the truth? All those who claim to deliver the true word , who granted them this authority?