Amen sir, amen.

I think the commission is likely not to approve Medjugorje, and then there will still be a bunch of people still believing in the private revelations of Medjugorje with the rationale that there is some kind of cover-up going on a the Vatican, like the “Fourth Secret of Fatima” folks.

The Holy Spirit works in the Church. He couldn’t contradict Himself in a private revelation.

Ergo, Christian obedience.

The Holy Father has had some other interesting audiences these last few months.  For example, back on November 17th, he had this to say about St. Juliana of Cornillon

However, to increase their faith the Lord often asks Saints to sustain trials. This also happened to Juliana who had to bear the harsh opposition of certain members of the clergy and even of the superior on whom her monastery depended.
[snip]
She edified all with her humility, she had no words of criticism or reproach for her adversaries and continued zealously to spread Eucharistic worship.

Keep in mind how harshly the Bishop of Mostar is treated, as well as anyone else who does not believe Medjugorje is authentic.  Cardinal Bertone had some terse words to say in 2005 after he was on the receiving end of their “love” when he dared to voice his skepticism on a radio program.

Yesterday, following his talk on Julian of Norwich, Pope Benedict (in the Italian version) acknowledged a contingent from St. James in Medjugorje.  How did supporters respond?  No mention of what he said about the mystic, especially the part where he said:

Yes, dear brothers and sisters, God’s promises are always bigger than our expectations. If given by God, to his great love, the purest and deepest desires of our hearts, we will never be disappointed. “And everything will be fine,” “everything will be for the good” was the final message that gives us Julian of Norwich, and that I will propose today. Grazie. Thanks.

Here is the Italian version through a google translator since the English is abbreviated:

Pope Benedict on Julian of Norwich; acknowledges contingent from St. James in Medjugorje

Julian of Norwich is often touted by goddess worshippers for her revelations on God, supposedly calling Him “Our Mother”, yet the Holy Spirit cannot contradict the Church. Pope Benedict XVI put it best when he said, “Julian’s mysticism echoes the prophet Isaiah in using the imagery of a mother’s love to describe the affectionate care which God shows for his children, culminating in the incarnation of his Son and the fulfilment of his promises.”
(Catechesis of the Pope)

I have been to Medjugorje in 1988.  I was a “Doubting Thomas,“and a skeptic of what I had heard about it. I had to go and see if it was a hoax and believe me, it is no hoax. I witnessed spectacular, magnificent, supernatural phenomena two days in a row right after Blessed Mother appeared to Ivon, one of the seers.  I saw a woman appear in the sky and she floated over to the sun.  She was dressed in a blue veil and mantle and it was a frontal image of her and she floated over to where the sun was and placed herself over it.  In her womb, was the golden ball of the sun. She was, “clothed with the sun.”  I also witnessed a red dove in the sky.  I watched it being created and formed a perfect red dove that became animated and flew away.  I watched an angel being formed in the sky.  It was the same phenomena as the previous image of the woman clothed with the sun.  The angel was all white and it was blowing a trumpet. The next day, I went back to St. James and right after the apparition was over, I saw the dancing and spinning of the sun and again, I witnessed a red cross on the ground that rose up into the sky.  Another figure of a woman dressed in a blue mantle and blue veil appeared and she was on her knees with her hands formed in prayer.  She was facing the sun.  I also witnessed 3 blueish gray spheres appear and they were all connected and they floated over to where the sun was and took the place of the sun.  The Blessed Mother stated that these signs are given so that people will know that the apparitions are from God and are true ones.  What I have witnessed has been seen by many, many others and has been published in a book called, “Queen of Peace Visits Medjugorje.”  Judge the tree by it’s fruit and much good fruit has come from that holy place.  Blessed Mother has stated that these ongoing (29years) apparitions are the greatest event to happen to the world since the birth of her Son, Jesus!”  After they are over, she will no longer appear again on Earth.  There won’t be a need to appear again.  How profound! Her first words to the 6 seers were, “I have come to tell the world that God exists! Do not persist in your unbelief, but believe!”  Graces are being given to the world that have never before been given. We are living in the last times, not the end of the world but, the end of the times as we know them….Praise be Jesus!

After you quoted the Pope as saying, “As always happens in the life of true mystics, Hildegard too wanted to put herself under the authority of wise people to discern the origin of her visions, fearing that they were the product of illusions and did not come from God. “

You wrote:
“I think it would be a mistake, here, to assume that the Pope is saying that all genuine mystics must have the kind of fears that St. Hildegard did regarding the authenticity of her visions.”

Why do you think what you think? You are mistaken: He is saying exactly that, true mystics must fear they could be deceived and must submit to the judgement of the Church about the validity of their visions.

@Karen Johnson,

By your statement does this mean that you will discern the matter for yourself based on your personal experience, or accept judgment on authenticity on a decision by the Holy See?

Read and pray on the words of St. Teresa of Avila (emphasis mine in bold):

8. I desire very much that the Lord help me explain the effects caused in the soul by these things that are now beginning to be supernatural so that through the effects one many know when they are the work of God’s spirit. I say ‘one may know,’ but I mean in conformity with what one can know here below.  It is always good that we walk with fear and caution. For, although the work may be from God, the devil at times can transform himself into an angel of light, and if the soul has not a great deal of experience, it will not discern the devil’s work - and, in fact, it must have so much experience that it needs to come close to the very summit of prayer in order to have such discernment.”
(taken from The Collected Works of St. Teresa of Avila, Vol 1, the Book of Her Life, Chapter 14)

Of course, who can discern for themselves that they have the experience Teresa speaks of for discernment?

Here is just one of many examples of questionable behaviors out of “seers” of Medjugorje” (contains a video clip of retired University of Montreal researcher, Louis Belanger, explaining what happened in the movie he shot in Medjugorje which captured an unexpected, practical test).

Richard, if it is true that Our Lady of Fatima spoke of a modern apostasy fomenting within The Catholic Church, when her secret is finally unveiled, it is not as if we won’t recognize it as authentic.

The Pope’s statement is right on target and nothing new. But it’s good to hear it repeated at a time when mysticism and such experiences are such popular subjects, both in and out of the church. So many people forget that the greatest mystics and seers always started out with a solid foundation in an orthodox faith. You don’t just decide to “be a mystic”. You turn to God in faith and He may give you that gift. Without the foundation of a solid faith and relationship with wise mentors, mysticism can go off the rails.

@Diane at Te Laudamus,
You have not been to Medjugorje and are just one of a group of people whose main objective is to detract from the holiness and conversions coming from Medjugorje. I have seen the seers in the U.S. many times since my trips there and have yet to see any, “examples of questionable behaviors out of the “seers” of Medjugorje.”  I suppose Louis Belanger, retired University of Montreal researcher, could also produce a video with his practical tests, which could explain all of the miracles Jesus performed during His ministry.  I know what I witnessed two days in a row and I have only seen countless numbers of conversions coming from that village and it has caused a return of the use of the sacraments, prayer, fasting, and does not come from satan. Again, judge the tree by it’s fruit and that tree has only bore good fruit.  Praise be Jesus!

Reading through the above comments, I am somehow puzzled why there appears to be doubts as to how the Church treats private revelations before She approves them. St. Theresa of Avila puts it very well, and I quote her again “It is always good that we walk with fear and caution. For, although the work may be from God, the devil at times can transform himself into an angel of light”. Reading the lives of the Saints who were Mystics, we find they all subjected themselves to the authority of the Church and in nearly all cases, had qualified and holy Spiritual Directors to guide them to ensure Satan does not, at some stage, try to misguide them. For the Church to accept private revelations, very stringent and thorough investigations take place until the Church satisfies Herself that the revelations are in accordance with the Church’s Teachings and the Scriptures and, therefore authentic and from God. And the reason is absolutely clear. God never contradicts Himself.  If any private revelation is contrary to the Teachings of the Church, then as St. Theresa rightly states, they should be treated as coming from the Evil One disguised as the angel of light and rejected forthwith. And in most cases - for example the many conversations and encounters Jesus had with St. Maria Faustina, the Secretary of Divine Mercy - Jesus always asked her to obey her Confessor/Spiritual Director to confirm that it was, indeed, Christ Himself who was working thorough her. Even after Jesus appeared to her when He requested her to have the Image of Him as she saw it painted and which He wanted to be venerated henceforth, she often requested Jesus to give her some proof that she was not deluding herself that it was Him, and Jesus always allayed her doubts.

Karen,

Thomas doubted the doctrine of the Resurrection of Christ. Hence his nickname, “Doubting Thomas”.
No private revelation is doctrine. So whoever doubts a revelation is not a “doubting Thomas.”
However, it is doctrine that no revelation must be believed or followed. Whoever doubts this is a “doubting Thomas.”
Related Links:
The Catechism on Revelation
Verbum Domini and Private Revelation
Bad Arguments

@Karen Johnson

It is absolutely correct that one can judge the tree by its fruits.  I’ve done a lot of reading on Medjugorje. The disobedience and lack of humility from the priests and the visionaries and the scandals involved are a huge obstacle for me and lead me to be extremely skeptical of the authenticity of the apparitions. The most humble and obedient Blessed Virgin Mary would never approve of or encourage the disobedience that this “apparition” does. Even the Blessed Virgin acknowledges and submits to the authority of the Church that her Son established. Compare Medjugorje to the approved apparitions - Guadalupe, Lourdes, Fatima: obedience and humility are all there.

Besides, if the apparitions are real you don’t have anything to worry about. If it’s authentic it will be approved by the Holy See. There’s no need to be defensive when Diane brings up some valid points and questions for consideration.

Nick,

Your comment is pedantic. If the commission determines, which I am optimistic it will, that the apparitions at Medjugorje are true ones, there will be those, such as yourself that say, “however, it is doctrine that no revelation must be believed or followed.”  Then there is no purpose of Blessed Mother appearing to anyone such as at Fatima and Lourdes if God wants us to ignore any of her requests. God sent her to Medjugorje to convert sinners and the unbelievers and I believe, that is just what she is doing.

I also have been a pilgrim to Medjugorje. I went in 1998.  It was indeed a marvelous experience and I have remained in touch with some of my fellow pilgrims.  I also saw phenomena such as the sun spinning and the smelling of roses and my rosary turned gold. In fact, my recoversion a few years before that was due to Our Lady and her messages at Medjugorje.

Having said all that, I NO LONGER SUPPORT MEDJUGORJE unless the Church approves it.  There is DISOBEDIENCE and that is a HUGE RED FLAG that something is wrong.  When the local bishop stands in the pulpit of St. James and, within his authority, asks the individuals who spread these messages to be quiet while the investigation is ongoing is ignored and even detracted and calumniated, there is something terribly unholy and wrong going on.

Disobedience as well as detraction and calumny against a cleric are not from Our Lady. Period.  And I have had long friendships put in joepardy for saying this!  And, yes, even if the Church gives a negative report on Medjugorje, many will continue to support it also in disobedience. The Saints were not disobedient. The message of the Divine Mercy had to lie dormant for decades until the time was right; had the promoters been disobedient we would not have this worldwide deovtion now.

Just yesterday someone gave me yet another book to ‘prove’ Medjugorje. But the bottom line is that I do not live my life following ‘messages’ as some of my friends do.

ps:  the devil can work phenomena!  These unusual experiences cannot be counted as affirmations from heaven.

Medjugorje has been going on for almost 30 years. Lourdes and Fatima where short lived and the propehcies have come to pass. With these visionaries, Our Lady seems to be conjured up at whatever the local time is where they are holding court and she gives yet another banal ‘message’.

Yes, I do think something supernatural is happening; when the visionaries were children, there is no way they could have acted in unison as they did.  But supernatural does not necessarily mean from heaven.

As one very holy elderly priest said, these ‘apparitions’ could well be used to cause a split in the church and among the most fervent of all the faithful, Mary’s children. This is why obedience is key and can save us from such a thing.

Interestingly, I’ve been listening to a musical CD with St. Hildegard’s beautiful music from the 11th century.  I bought it a while ago and dug it up just recently to enjoy this beautiful sacred music.  The CD is called “VISION: The Music of Hildegard von Bingen” and is sold by Angel Records Inc.  It is produced by Tony McAnany and the featured vocalists are Emily Van Evera and Sister Germaine Fritz, OSB.  Check it out if you can!  It’s really beautiful.  It warmed my heart to see that our Holy Father just recently spoke about Hildegard’s mysticism.  The CD insert has some very good information on her and all the song text is included.

I heard a lecture on Hildegard the other day and walked out before the discussion began.  It seemed that at one time near the end of her life she was disobedient to legitimate authority for over a year and no Mass was celebrated in her convent.  Disobedience bothers me.  Also a book on her visions was written or edited by Matthew Fox.  OH Oh!!  Also ggogled and someone, perhaps not in the church, thought that her visions and her illnesses may have been migraines.  Not for me at this time.

May I humbly reply to you, Karen on your last post.  Whenever the Holy Mother of God appears to whoever God has approved, she always points us to her Son, Jesus.  She always stresses that we remain faithful to the Teachings of Her Son’s Bride and her mantra is, each and every time she has appeared: Humility, again Humility, yes, Humility. I might mention that in our country, fake Holy Mary Apparitions have been cropping up once in a while, but when critical investigations are carried out by the Church, a point or two which are at variance with the Teachings of the Church eventually come to light. You see, Karen, Satan is a very good liar, but fortunately, he is very proud and he cannot continue deluding us for long. Eventually, his pride trips him over.  Therefore, whenever the Church is investigating any mystical apparitions, if an attitude of pride and contradiction with the Catholic Doctrine and Faith is evident, the Church immediately confirms She is dealing with the angel of darkness disguised as an angel of light. So, you need not be so defensive about this issue.  If it is true we are dealing with an authentic Apparition of Our Lady, Her Son through the Holy Spirit will reveal this to the Church as He has done through the ages. And remember, Christ Himself warned us about false witnesses who will come performing even more spectacular miracles than the ones He Himself performed. He strongly exhorted us to be alert and not be deceived. The only way to be sure you are not being deceived, is to allow the Church to authenticate any Mystical Apparitions or miracles therefrom.  That way, you will never go wrong.

Thank you,Magdalene for telling us the truth about the disobedience and arrogance at Medjugorje.  And you are right, Our Lady appears to give a Message from her Son for a specific reason and specific time-frame.  If Medjugorje apparitions have been ongoing for 30 years, a cradle Catholic like me is immediately convinced it is the work of the evil one.  I do not even need to wait for the Vatican to agree with me.  And the same would be true to any faithful Catholic who knows his/her Faith and Mother Church well.  Once again, thank you Magdalene for that emphatic confirmation that we are dealing with tricksters.

There’s a website called SpiritDaily which pushes Medjugorje. In todays postings they try to give the impression of papal approval to the “messages” by noting that the pope greeted the Croatian pilgrims from the church of St. James at Medjugorje during his audience. That is incredibly disingenuous.

Mary42 is so right. Imagine what a mockery this false apparition, with its sixty or so secrets, is to Fatima messages. The only “secrets” given by Our Lady for the Church were to the three children of Fatima in 1917. The message that goes with the final third secret has never been revealed, only the vision part of it.

Imagine the insult to Croatian Catholics who suffered under Communism in Yugoslavia when the “Gospa” draws the Russian word for peace, MIR, in the sky. After MIR appeared came the Bosnian War in 1992. Some 200,000 civilians and soldiers died.

Diane K:

Were you aware that you have never been to Medjugorje?

Karen Johnson said: You have not been to Medjugorje and are just one of a group of people whose main objective is to detract from the holiness and conversions coming from Medjugorje. 
..........
<b>Dear Karen: 1) Regrettably, you did not answer my question as to whether you were going to rely on your own discernment or place your trust in the Holy See to discern authenticity. 2) I lived in Herzegovina from November of 1980 to February of 1983.  In fact, I lived with the community of Franciscan sisters responsible for the care of St. James parish discerning a vocation when it all began - does that count as “having been there”?  3) I was there when it all began and was cautiously optimistic, even in spite of the “good fruits” because Satan can draw people to the Sacraments as happened in the case of Magdalen of the Cross, who later confessed to having made a pact with the devil.  I was there when the Great Sign was expected, but didn’t come (and nearly 30 years later, people are still waiting). 4) I experienced the tensions between the Herzegovina Franciscans and the local bishop in subtle ways before Medjugorje even dawned (see Romanis Pontificibus recently translated into English which shows this “rift” is not between the local Franciscan province and the local Bishop, but between those Franciscans and the Holy See!). This having been said, I would like to ask you again…. will you trust the discernment of the Holy See or your own personal discernment?

The greates mystery is New Birth John ch3

Dear Holy Father, your statement about showing complete obedience to ecclesial authority seems to prescind from the reality of the long standing, pre-vision political bias of the secular diocesan vs. the Franciscans in the St. James parish, as if somehow this political bias has not played into every statement that has been made by the Diocese, and therefore, by Canon Law, the greater Church. The same has been true of the alleged apparitions at Garabandal, the veracity of which for nearly 50 years, has rested on the teetering spire of bishops coming and going that have either been for it or against it. It’s pretty ridiculous actually. It seems for those who do not believe in both apparitions, all evidence is summarily dismissed, and no objectivity can be found.

Wow. George.  Now that is a “fruit” a bad fruit.  You have things quite backwards, and not just the apparent trust in personal discernment over ecclesiastical discernment.  You might want to try reading the actual 1975 Decree Romanis Pontificibus, which I memtiomed earlier.  Whatever the local Franciscans and/or others have told you about the “rift” is hearsay.  Go read the decree and you will see that the bishop has been attempting to implement the wishes of the Holy See since before Medjugorje began.  While most Franciscans are obedient there, some resisted the Holy See’s plans, based on that decree, up to the point of usurping several parishes.  Well over 20 have refused to sign a declaration of obedience over Romanis Pontificibus back in the late 90’s in the wake of that chaos, and they are now without faculties.  See my post made a few weeks ago now that the decree has been professionally translated and resides on the Dioces of Mostar-Duvno website (it is a Holy See document, not a document by the bishop) We don’t need to rely on hearsay any longer:  1975 Decree - Romanis Pontificibus now available in English (Herzegovina Case)

to Jimmy Akin

It was stated above

“When the local bishop stands in the pulpit of St. James and, within his authority, asks the individuals who spread these messages to be quiet while the investigation is ongoing is ignored…...”

Can you tell me if in this case the individuals (visionaries) were disobedient because they were not quiet.  Does a bishop have that authority to tell a lay person to be quiet and they would be under the pain of sin?

Can the bishop of your diocese tell Jimmy Akins to be quiet and would you be disobedient if you were not quiet.

@Dave - I know you addressed your question at Jimmy and I hope he answers from a practical apologetics standpoint in general. However, let me provide two key pieces of information that go together.

..........

In 2006, the Bishops of Tuscany, Italy went on their ad limina visit.  Medjugorje is very big in Italy, moreso than here in the US.  The good bishops asked the CDF while in Rome, how they should respond to the question of Medjugorje.  Then Archbishop, and now Cardinal Angelo Amato, who was the Secretary of the CDF directed those bishops to the 2006 homily of Bishop Ratko Peric in Medjugorje that year.  The Tuscany bishops sent out a fax to all the priests of the diocese (seen here in this post), in which they said:

..............

Here is a crude google translation:

..............

During the visit “ad Limina” of the Bishops of the Region of Tuscany, in the period 16/20 April 2007, we had a meeting at the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Secretary Monsignor Angelo Amato, who speaks to us of apparitions of Medjugorje, has invited us to make public the homily the Bishop of Mostar, in order to clarify the religious phenomenon linked to this site.

In compliance with this invitation to make known, and pray, especially priests, to read it carefully and to learn the lessons necessary for the proper lighting of our faithful.

.................

What was said in that homily that received the backing of the CDF by it’s endorsement?

.................

After several points he makes at the end of that 2006 homily, he said: Therefore, I responsibly call upon those who claim themselves to be “seers”, as well as those persons behind the “messages”, to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish. In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the Church, by neither placing private “apparitions” nor private sayings before the official position of the Church. Our faith is a serious and responsible matter. The Church is also a serious and responsible institution!

...............

Why would the CDF refer the Bishops of Tuscany to that homily if they did not support the position of the Bishop of Mostar? 

...............

Also, it is the 1991 Zadar Declaration which is in effect until a new ruling comes out, that gives him the responsibility for pastoral care “of Medjugorje, and all connected with it”, among other things.  Supporters think this means he is suppose to support them in all that they want to do and anything restrictive as “disobedience” by the bishop.  That is really skewed understanding, and is not how the Church works.

I should add some very interesting facts about Cardinal Amato and the case of Medjugorje.

...............

1) As noted above, on behalf of the CDF, he referred the Bishops of Tuscany to the Bishop of Mostar’s 2006 homily by +Peric.

...............

2) In 2008, then Archbishop Amato, still with the CDF, asked the Bishop of Mostar to notify the people that:

“Within the context of the phenomenon Medjugorje, this Dicastery is studying the case of Father Tomislav VLASIC OFM, originally from that region and the founder of the association ‘Kraljice mira potpuno Tvoji – po Mariji k Isusu’.

.

Medjugorje supporters downplay the involvement of Vlasic, thinking these are the words of the local bishop.  They are actually the words of a CDF official.

.............

3) Cardinal Amato is among the members of the Medjugorje Commission (I have background in this old post on various members, including Amato).

.............

4) Amato was recently elevated to Cardinal.  Veteran Vatican journalist, Sandro Magister writes:

.

In the overwhelming majority of cases, these are appointments “ex officio,” practically compulsory.

This is the case of the Salesian Angelo Amato, 72, since June of 2008 prefect of the congregation for the causes of saints (and before this, the second in command at the former Holy Office, where for three years he was the closest collaborator of then cardinal Joseph Ratzinger)

This whole issue with Medjugorje is causing many problems even in our local parishes in America. Parishioners who have gone on pilgrimages are convinced because of what they see or think they see. Some of the phenomena may in fact be natural to the area.

30,000 appearances by the Virgin Mary? Common sense says these are not the real thing. In no other approved apparition has our Blessed Mother appeared that many times. And it’s scheduled? Wow I cannot believe that the Virgin watches a clock. And she will even appear when the seer is out of town or out of country? Wow, isn’t that amazing.

Sorry all, this is way too out there for me.

Hi Jimmy:
If the visionaries in Medjugorje took on the local Franciscans (who manage the parish) as their spiritual advisers, is this not submitting to Church authority? I understand that the views of the bishops have been quite negative on the whole matter but, as has been pointed out over and over again, the local ordinary in this case does not have the authority to pronounce final judgment.

I have a question for you. I was wondering whether you might have any thought on the little reported comment the Pope made at his general audience on Wed. Here is how it is being reported on the reputable (albeit pro-Med.j) website CrownOfStars.blogspot.com, apparently lifted from the Vatican Information Service:

Vatican City (VIS) - December 1
At the end of today’s general audience, during part of the greeting of groups in different languages, the Pope addressed the Croatian crowd of pilgrims: “I greet all Croatian pilgrims, and especially those from the parish of St James, Medjugorje! Your pilgrimage to Rome is part of the way of preparation for the coming of the Lord. Therefore, in hope, be evangelisers of God’s love in your nation. May God bless you.”

(see http://crownofstars.blogspot.com/2010/12/pope-special-greeting-for-pilgrims-from.html)

Was this just another warm salutation by the Pope to foreigners visiting Rome? Maybe. But if B16 thought that the parish was being manipulated by the evil one, would he really go out of his way to single out this parish to wish them well in their evangelization and to bless them in particular? Is it not (far) more likely that the Pope here is expressing some solidarity with Medjugorje in a way that does not offend his brother bishop? To me, this is more likely to be the accurate interpretation.

Dear Karen Johnson, Diane at Te Laudamus does not need to go to Medjugorje to asses it properly. Unfortunately your comments are typically anecdotal and your assertions on the veracity of the alleged apparition are based on your own authority. In typical fashion you skirt the main point being made; your, my, our, any Catholic’s willingness to submit to the authority of the Church by whose Sacraments you, I, we, hope to attain heaven.

Have there been miracles related to the alleged apparition Medjugorje? No doubt some (though official studies undertaken by the Vatican confirm far, far less than the numbers claimed and submitted for verification) but we know God is merciful, once he even spoke via a donkey when the prophet refused obedience. And, we know that the Adversary of our souls does not withhold a good if by it he may accomplish a larger evil. Have there been conversions? Again, without doubt the mercy of God is great yet this is not in and of itself validation of the alleged apparition.

Why take my word, that of a fellow lay Catholic like yourself? Indeed. But for the record in a talk given by Cardinal Arinze on the theme of apparitions, visions and locutions (which may be found on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E67OMU3O3wM) he notes:
—-
“If a reported apparition is really from God or if it is only the fruit of somebody’s over fertile imagination, somebody’s pious ideas, somebody who does not distinguish between reality and dream or somebody who has a type of jaundice - it is very difficult to know when it is the result of deceit of the devil - and even in a genuine private revelation the seer can make mistakes in recounting or interpreting some of the details, this has happened even to saints…In practice it means we should test reported apparition by such questions as the following: Does it agree entirely with the revealed and defined Catholic Does it lead us to the center of our faith, which is wear holy Scripture is, and sacred Tradition and where the Pope and the bishops are? Does it lead us to obey the Pope and the bishops? If you say, “The private revelation told us not to mind the Pope and the bishops”, we tell you it’s not from heaven!

It is therefore a mistake if a Christian makes a reported apparition a central event in Christian life or a test of those who are fervent Christians. If now you test people - if you don’t believe in that apparition you are not a good Catholic - you have the whole thing wrong. It is a negative sign, when some Christians follow reported seers or visionaries, they follow them, they feed daily on their writings and utterances but they won’t read the gospels, they won’t read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, they won’t read the documents of the Pope and, they read the documents of seer, visionary X,Y,Z. It is a very negative sign when some people disobey the Pope or the bishops in union with him, all in the name of a vision or an apparition.

Christ told his Apostles, anyone who listens to you, listens to me, anyone who rejects you rejects me and, those who reject me reject the one who sent me.

Someone asked me, “There is one apparition reported, are you going on pilgrimage there.” I said, “Oh yes! I go on pilgrimage but you know where I go on pilgrimage? The Chapel!, where we have the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacle. Where we are not guessing. Were we are sure! That’s my pilgrimage!

Please understand me, I do not say, do not go to Lourdes, do not go to Fatima, those are certain; Jerusalem, that’s where our faith began. But there are some other places, we don’t know if Our Lady was ever there or not, eh, I don’t go there.

They can do good to people, it doesn’t prove yet. We don’t know, maybe may not be - it takes a lot - the Church years and years to know whether they are genuine, sometimes it takes fifty years, a hundred years. We don’t base our faith on such because we have solid foundation for our faith already.

You want Pilgrimage? Jerusalem, of course…” [here the video clip ends].
—-

I do not post this because I honestly think it will change the mind of a Medjugorjeite, various encounters have taught me sadly otherwise, though there is always hope.  Rather I post that transcript for the sake of the good, of truth and for those Catholics who may be encouraged in the affirmation of a solid (papable?) Cardinal that they do well to refrain from chasing after a sign and a wonder, an unconfirmed sign and a wonder and that they do well in holding on to the faith as it has been given with surety. For me there is an inexhaustible resource for growth in Christ, for the experience of healing and of conversion and so forth in regular observance of the Sacraments, in the Mass and in the breadth of teaching in the living magesterium. I would argue that these may well require more rigor, more time and even greater personal sacrifice than chasing an apparition but they are certain things, they are a truly good good.

Owen @ drawntocatholicismDOTcom

P.S. humorously the word verification for this comment is “appeared41”

Letter of Saint Hildengard on holy obedience

“The first fountain represents pure and sacred obedience, and many people run to it, those who gather in the name of the Lord, and who subordinate themselves in obedience to the precepts of their superiors in imitation of the Son of God, Who was obedient to His Father.”

Catechesis of Pope Benedict XVI on how Saint Clare exemplified those virtues we ought to exercise as Christians

“In the Convent of San Damiano, Clare practised heroically the virtues that should distinguish every Christian: humility, a spirit of piety and penitence and charity.”

Thank you so much for the explanation of finding out gifts of prophesy or sort of being a visionary because i for one is also afraid of my dreams.  Not only once that i was told by a priest that my visions is purely hallucinations or illusions.  But i did tested my faith in my own life and true enough because all that was told to me in a dream for my country happened in reality though it took decades before it can come into reality.  And everything came through the Virgin Mary and after that with Jesus.  I made testimonies inside my very own parish but i was persecuted and found to be outcast but i did not stop being obedient to His will.  Until this very moment what God has shown me in my dream for myself happens and inspite of difficulties of so many trials in my life..i still have to obey and accept His will for me and that is the reason why i remained in my catholic church and faith and now i have or trying to do what is ask of me or what the Lord wants me to do..i am just a simple servant working as volunteer in the lector/commentator of our small chapel in a remote rural area talking to my brothers and sisters in the faith of what God wants for them.  Praise God for this wonderful gift and thanks so much Mama Mary for a very nice experience and thank you Jesus for the privilege of being with You.  God bless to all.

I think it is very unfair to assume a place under investigation as false before the Church does. There is a reason why the investigation was taken out of the local Bishop hands. This was a Vatican decision. The area itself has come under political land battle on who governs the spiritual, between one order and another. So let us wait please for the official declaration.

I remember Akita was denounced then this was changed, I also know where a place has been approved by local Bishops assigned to form a commission, that many Catholics rage against even these. No they do not have to believe they are real, but, they have no right to fight the Commissions decision. Divine Mercy was banned also at one time, Saint John of the Cross writings placed him before inquision and in prison.

Obedience always has to come first. However how many revelations are private and personal, not meant for the world, how many are there that the Church do not even investigate because they are personal? Even if people have experiences in Medjurgorje like Karen, this may be because so many are there praying, with true love and faith in God, where two or three are together Our Lord said, I will be there. That is not to say I am suggesting that the seers at Medjurgorje are fakes, I have good statements from Father Jozo who also had experiences and faced torture and prison and was threatened with death, and was willing to face death rather than deny his own personal experience that he had at Medjurgorje. So lets not make ourselves the Vatican at this point, but wait and see what they decide officially. They could of rejected at the highest level years and years ago if they wanted too.

And now this…

• When the Pope mentioned Medjugorje in welcoming Croatian pilgrims to Rome on Wednesday, a cheer erupted from a section of the audience and Benedict looked up from his notes, smiled, then raised his right hand to acknowledge the group of applauding and cheering Croats. The photo above shows the Pope’s reaction.  Time and date of smile: 12:25, Wednesday, December 1, 2010.

Hvaljen Isus i Marija
PRAISED BE JESUS AND MARY!

• Benedict ended his welcome to the pilgrims from the Medjugorje parish with the words: “Hvaljen Isus i Marija!”

The Pope’s use of this phrase made his greeting to the people of Medjugorje even more personal as it is a standard salutation used by the Medjugorje visionaries and villagers that means “Praised be Jesus and Mary.”

Last year, on December 30, cardinal Christoph Schönborn began his homily in St James church with the same words: “Hvaljen Isus i Marija.” The cardinal repeated it several times and urged the congregation to repeat it with him, knowing and understanding how much this greeting means to the people of Medjugorje.

Jimmy, your interpretation of a hidden agenda behind the Pope’s meditation on St. Hildegard seems to be further and further from the mark. “What do you think?”

And when you can’t get spiritual direction because you are turned down or because the priest is dismissive and not open, has already made up his mind and works to undermine you what are you to do?

mgseamanjr,

So we’ve gone from the extreme that the Pope is readying the Church for a negative judgment on Medjugorge to the extreme that the Pope is readying the Church for a positive judgment on Medjugorje.
Why not stick with Christ at the middle? I say the Pope was just teaching and being friendly, as he always has been throughout his pontificate.
If you’re looking for a meaning in the Pope’s words and gestures, it is that he is being the Pope.

First, let me say I am not making any judgment on any vision. However, with that said, please do not fully accept any apparition until it is approved by the Holy Catholic Church.  Allow the Holy Church to decide if it is a divine apparition or another type.  Do not say “It must be of divine origin because all that is said is good in nature.”  The evil ones works are very cunning and deceiving.  He will lead you down a path and have you buy in full heartily.  And if the Holy Mother Church were to denounce it, how many would leave the true Holy Catholic Church? Take everything with a grain of salt.  When in doubt, turn to the Holy Church. Pray for the Church to be guided. Pray for the pope and all the priests.  Pray, pray and pray.  If a vision is true God will make it known to man through the church.  And heaven will rejoice that the children are obedient to Her.  God bless all of you.

“Hvaljen Isus i Marija!” is a traditional Croatian phrase that long predates the events of Medjugorje.  The Holy Father is tailoring his affection to particular groups of pilgrims in his General Audience, not signaling an immanent approval of the alleged apparitions.  Please.

Here’s a chart on Public Revelation and private revelation that illustrates their relationship and respected conditions:
Revelation

Every truth is already in Revelation which is to be believed and is necessary for salvation, since God has said everything in His Word Incarnate, Jesus Christ, Who is the heart of the written and oral Word of God; yet we do not comprehend every truth, and so the Holy Spirit leads us deeper into those truths which we do not comprehend so that we can comprehend them better, and thus better love and praise God. Public Revelation, or Revelation, is necessary for belief. Private revelation, or approved messages, can be believed, but it is not necessary to believe.
Because Revelation is what we must belief, so we must defend and propagate it. Because a heavenly message is not what we must believe, so we do not have to defend or propagate it. Besides, every heavenly message, being oriented to Revelation, is already contained in Revelation: So, what more do you need other than Revelation? Yet private revelation is not a clanging cymbol but like a reminder of the Faith.

David Mann, I find your comment extremely naive.

Public Revelation is the Divine and Catholic Faith of the Divine and Catholic Church, and so, is believed with Divine and Catholic Faith.
Private revelation is not faith yet is believed by human recipients as coming from Heaven, and hence is said to be believed with human faith.
Public Revelation is absolutely necessary for salvation; for example, if someone unbaptized at the hour of his death should reject the truth of God’s Mercy, and so reject God’s Mercy, he will damn himself.
Private revelation is not necessary for salvation, you will not damn yourself if you don’t believe in revelations, however popular, pious, spiritual, or edifying these revelations may be or seem to be.
Public Revelation is Jesus Christ, to Whom is oriented the whole Church, that is, He is in the East and the whole Catholic Church faces Him.
Private revelation is oriented to Jesus: Like the Church it must conform fully to the fullness of Divine Revelation Who is our Lord and Savior.
Public Revelation must be believed by all Catholics. This is why anyone who, in fervor for private revelation, rejects a Catholic truth - like holy obedience or the Holy Mass - is guilty of rejecting Jesus, and whoever reject Jesus He will reject before the Father at Judgment Day.
Private revelation does not have to believed, not even by those who receive it: It is neither sin nor vice to reject a heavenly message.
In Revelation we find the advice, “Seek what is good and shun what is evil.” We ought to apply it to private revelations. If there is a call to conversion, we have Revelation which tells us we must convert, so let us heed the Faith. Yet even if a call to conversion is false, such as if someone says, “You must convert, you must give me money!” or “You must repent of the form of the Mass!”, we can discern, in light of the good advice to seek what is good and shun what is evil, to accept the call to convert (good) and shun the false notion of conversion, such as giving someone money or rejecting a form of the Mass (evil).

mgseamanjr:

You lost me.  The greeting long predates 1981; there were Croatian pilgrims at the General Audience; the Pope greeted them with a well-known Croatian Catholic greeting.  So far so good.

How does not agreeing with the conclusion that Benedict XVI therefore approves of Medjugorje make me naive? 

I’m asking.

To write something that stands out of the ordinary without recognised qualifications is one thing, but to believe some ordinary person could write such things is really something else.  I know Jesus is a humble man and he knows what is written as well as the attitude of the people.  But Jesus is not the kind of man who would argue to prove his point and claim to possess some powers in order to look good.  Knowing his fate depends on the attitude of the people’s interprestion of what is written, I imagine a sense of helplessness a Mystery in itself. 
It would be fair to say that the Mystery renders Freedom of the people to discover, learn, understand and make choices.  But Jesus also knows that those so-called democratic choices may be against him.
Why then didn’t he call upon God to send an army of angels to the rescue?
The mystery now renders Love by allowing the people to discover the truth and to make their decision and become responsible.
The Mystery of Knowing now eludes us as we expect a rich shining armour who says the right things usually at the right time to secure our faiths and hopes.  But while we are busy looking up, a humble man lowly passes below us, we don’t ever hear or see…
I think when all that aspects of subjective materialsim of self are filtered that we could all begin to see and hear our heart. It is then that we can see and hear what is not written or spoken.  It is really a mystery!
‘I am with the least among you..’

David Mann:
First of all, you should reread my post and you will see that I did *not* state that B16 is pronouncing his verdict on Medjugorje with this greeting. What I have said is that Jimmy’s interpretation of the Pope’s meditation on St. Hildegard (i.e. that it indicates he is sending some sort of critical signal on the events at Medj.), the real import of his article, is off the mark. Yes the greeting “Praised be Jesus and Mary” predates 1981 but, since then, it has taken on special meaning, particularly for the parish of Medjugorje. To deny this is naive. Let’s say the Pope instead said:  “Greetings pilgrims from Medjugorje! [Smile; wave] God bless you in particular! Please keep evangelizing! May Mary, Queen of Peace protect you!” Would you not agree that, even though the title “Mary, Queen of Peace” predates 1981, the salutation *might* signal that the Pope does *not* at the same time think that Medjugorje is a hotbed of disobedience and seat of the devil’s handiwork, as implied in Jimmy’s article? I am still hoping that the author of the article, whom I greatly respect, to comment.

@mgseamgr…David Mann is correct about the salutation, “Hvaljen Isus i Marija!” (Praised be Jesus and Mary).

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As I mentioned earlier, I was discerning a vocation from November of 1980 - February of 1983 with the Croatian Franciscan sisters in Herzegovina (the order responsible for the care of St. James parish in Medjugorje).  As you know, the alleged apparitions of Medjugorje began June 24, 1981. 

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When I arrived in November of 1980 - that is, over 6 months prior to the events in Medjugorje, one of the first things the sisters taught me was to use that salutation upon entering a house of Catholics, or in other settings where Catholics were being greeted.  I was taught a variation of that which was simply, “Hvaljen Isus”, as well.  The response was to be “Vazda Isus i Marija!” or “Vazda Isus!”

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I was further taught by the good sisters, in 1980, never to use the expression at that time in public, or other Christian expressions such as “zbogom” (a way of saying goodbye, “with God”).  Why? It wasn’t the United States and freedom of expression was not “ok”.  The former Yugoslavia was a socialist, atheist country with anti-Christian sentiments. 

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When the sisters taught me this expression it was explained to me, by them, that this was a tradition that went way back, to greet other Catholics with “Hvaljen Isus i Marija”.  It’s origins go back centuries, not mere decades.

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So, the bottom line is that it has no origins with the visionaries or with the happenings in Medjugorje. They merely use it because it is common in Croatian culture, even in places where they have migrated, like the US and Canada.  The Holy Father would give great joy to any group of Croatians, be they from Croatia, or from Bosnia & Herzegovina, if he used that salutation.  What makes it all the more joyful today, is that it can be freely expressed in public, unlike when I lived there in the early 80’s.

@mgseamgr - it seems we were writing at the same time and that you understand the salutation predates 1981. 

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However, I don’t think that “Hvaljen Isus i Marija” is any less special in a Zagreb, Croatia parish, or a parish in Dalmatia, or even in the Bishop’s cathedral in Mostar. Bottom line is that the Holy Father used a traditional Croatian expression which overjoyed Croatians to hear him say it.  I can assure you that a contingent of Catholics from any Croatian parish would have been excited to hear him say that and would not have connected it to Medjugorje (except, in Medjugorje, where exploitation of any number of things has become an art, to the exlusion of clear evidence to the contrary).

To illustrate what I meant about exploitation, you will notice on the homepage of Medjugorje.hr in the various languages, such as this page in English which covers that specific Wednesday audience, the people of St. James running that website didn’t bother to communicate anything else the Holy Father said in his address that day, but the salutation.  Why is that?  Why would they not want to communicate to readers what it was that pilgrims from St. James heard the Holy Father say?. 

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It’s all too typical.  Medjugorje is about Medjugorje.  That too is a fruit.

Link didn’t work.  Here it is straight from St. James in Medjugorje.  The most important thing the Holy Father said at his Wednesday audience was the traditional Croatian salutation:

http://medjugorje.hr/en/news/parishoners-from-medjugorje-parish-at-the-general-audience-with-holy-father,3310.html

When bishop Zanic made his declaration that he caught the seers lying to him in the 1980’s, that was enough for me to never want to go there.  I would feel like I would be disobeying a bishop in doing that. 
The seers threatened the bishop, in that the blessed mother would punish him for not accepting the visions.  How crazy is that.  How could anyone believe and visit the site of these never ending aparations in good concience.
Sincerely in Christ,
Bonnie Tremblay

These kinds of discussions are occasions of sin.  John Paul II often asked about Medjugorje and didn’t prohibit anyone from going.  The Church will come to its conclusions in due time - after the apparitions end.  Pray for the holiness of our priesthood - Pope,Bishops,Cardinals,Monsignors and priests and for our religious.

Pam,

The Church has judged Medjugorje back in 1990 while it is still ongoing. Two other apparitions the Church has judged while they were ongoing are Holy Love Ministries and Bayside. The Church doesn’t have to wait for a private revelation to end before she can judge them positively or negatively.

The Church hasn’t judged Medjugorje yet.  Catholic Churches are still hosting the visionaries.  The Church always waits until the apparitions are concluded to make a statement of approval.  They do not need to wait to the conclusion to disapprove an apparition.

“These kinds of discussions are occasions of sin.”

Pam, why are you engaging in an occasion of sin?

There are many faithful from the parrish of St James in Medjugorje who
doesn´t believe in the appirations. So, if the Pope greets pilgrims from
Medjugorje, they are just that, pilgrims.

This discussion has veered away from the subject of the article to a condemnation of Medjugorje. Jimmy writes here that the Pope’s comments on St. Hildegard of Bingen sheds light on B16’s supposed negative views of Medjugorje. This is the point of his article. However, the Pope was less ambiguous in expressing these views on Wednesday when he singled out one group of Croatians in particular to salute and bless and wish well in their evangelization: the group of pilgrims from St. James’ parish in Medjugorje. To state that, as Nikola (above) has now done, that the Pope meant to greet those from Medjugorje who are not believers in the apparition, is absurd. It simply can not be that the Pope feels that Medjugorje is the seat of the devil’s greatest deception and then go out of his way to single out and greet and bless the parishioners there who are spreading this alleged evil. Folks, you can turn off your rational thinking only so much. It should be patently obvious to anyone who is not totally blinded by their bias against Medjugorje that this special salutation and blessing is a far more obvious sign that the Pope does not harbor unfavorable views toward Medjugorje than any cryptic message in his meditation on St. Hildegard. I know that Jimmy is a busy man but a few more days of evading this discussion and one will begin to think that he agrees with me but is afraid to admit it in this forum. It appears the timing of his article was unfortunate.

As Catholics we are not required to accept even the"approved” apparitions, but only the Church’s teachings on faith and morals and to work for our salvation through the Sacraments. I too doubt VERY SERIOUSLY the Medjugorje claims but my faith is based on Christ and His Church.
Who said, ” a sinful nation is always looking for “signs and wonders”?

To mgseamanjr

What i meant was that in Medjugorje like in every other parrish, there can be both those who believe and those who dont. The Holy Father did
greet the pilgrims as pilgrims. I never meant that he greeted only
the nonbelievers of the appirations, but to me this isn´t an approval
from the Holy Father to the medjugorjephenomenon. He must have the possi-
bility to treat that parrish as every other parrish.

Patt,
You are quite correct in stating that one is not required to believe in private revelation. However, as you no doubt know, the Virgin Mary has seen fit, and has been given permission by God, to warn mankind at certain times to correct his ways. She has also foretold disastrous events that will come if such corrections do not take place. It is therefore *prudent* to listen to her messages and warnings if the Catholic Church deems such an apparition authentic. This too is the teaching of the Church. Since I have kept my analysis to Jimmy’s article and the teachings of the Catholic Church, I can’t see how you can state that I am “looking for a sign.”

Despite Nick’s claims above, the Church has not yet issued a verdict on the affair and we ought, as writes Pam, above, wait for her wise deliberation and decision rather than pronounce our judgment hastily. As Patrick Madrid has recently said, we all ought to “pause, take a deep breath, and ponder these words from Scripture: ‘If this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!’” (Acts 5:38-39).

mgseamanjr:

As I said, where does what I said make me naive? You are injecting into a generic papal high-five blessing/greeting some kind of “message” about the Pope’s thoughts on Medjugorje.  Did he tell you what was on his mind?  I have no idea if Jimmy’s rumination is accurate or not.  Maybe not.  Same with your theory.  It may be that the Pope just got handed the pilgrim roster 20 minutes before the Audience, and it was luck that his comments on Hildegard were made then as well.

The term “Queen of Peace,” even if it’s a million years old, has been co-opted, fully owned and identified with the entity of Medjugorje.  Please.  There is no comparison between this title and the generic Croatian greeting.

Pam:  Discussions about Medjugorje are always “occasions of sin”—only when they involve a trace of skepticism on the part of Catholics who don’t buy into an UNapproved apparition.  Pro-Mej discussions are endlessly, ehthusiastically permitted!  Nice set of rules you’ve got there.

Happy Second Sunday of Advent everyone!

David

David Mann:
First of all, you should reread my post and you will see that I did *not* state that B16 is pronouncing his verdict on Medjugorje with this greeting. What I have said is that Jimmy’s interpretation of the Pope’s meditation on St. Hildegard (i.e. that it indicates he is sending some sort of critical signal on the events at Medj.), the real import of his article, is off the mark. Yes the greeting “Praised be Jesus and Mary” predates 1981 but, since then, it has taken on special meaning, particularly for the parish of Medjugorje. To deny this is naive. Let’s say the Pope instead said:  “Greetings pilgrims from Medjugorje! [Smile; wave] God bless you in particular! Please keep evangelizing! May Mary, Queen of Peace protect you!” Would you not agree that, even though the title “Mary, Queen of Peace” predates 1981, the salutation *might* signal that the Pope does *not* at the same time think that Medjugorje is a hotbed of disobedience and seat of the devil’s handiwork, as implied in Jimmy’s article? I am still hoping that the author of the article, whom I greatly respect, to comment.

Diane:
I do not think that it is a sign of bad fruit for the website of the parish of Medjugorje to write about Medjugorje. Is this not what all parish’s websites do? The Medjugorje parish website is about the Medjugorje parish. It is not the place people would go to look for papal pronouncements or meditations. There are better venues for that. The link you provided is in the “News” section of their website and I find it entirely appropriate and tasteful that they would mention there that the Pope gave their parishioners a warm salutation and blessing.

Also, I do not see your point about the phrase “Praised be Jesus and Mary” pre-dating 1991. As you yourself point out, the parish of Medjugorje has adopted this phrase and it has essentially taken on an association with Medjugorje. You seem to take offense at this but again I can’t see your reasoning, except that you seem to critique the parish at every chance you get, even, as in this case, when the parishioners adopt and use frequently a beautiful salutation of praise. Is it not natural for Croatians to adopt a Croatian form of praise? Are you not perhaps being overly critical?

But the real point is this: Given that these words, “Praised be Jesus and Mary,” have now, as you point out, become associated with the parish of Medjugorje, does it not seem on the surface that the Pope, in using them when sending out a particular blessing to the parish of St. James in Medjugorje, seems to be expressing a little solidarity with the parish? At the very least, the Pope would be sending a mixed signal (or making a huge blunder) if he had used this expression, tied to Medjugorje as it is, while he felt in his heart that the place was the work of the devil. I guess I feel that B16 is far more intelligent that this.

Sure, I can accept Fatima and Lourdes—they provided warnings,  miracles and even vocations, and they were of short duration unlike Medjugorje. I have yet to see the fruits of this supposed apparition. Nothing weighty has come from it. Where are the miracles and vocations? I have read about it and seen nothing of note except mediocracy.  Have you examined the lives of the “seers”? Nothing note worthy there either after 20 years…
except that it remains in dispute with no concrete evidence. Seems like much ado about nothing.

nick and mgseamanjr,  I was saying beware. Asking questions and trying to find the truth are fine, but labelling and projecting motives and stating hypothetical facts are not.  Nick, there was no ruling on Medugorje that was accepted as final by the Church. Perhaps you heard that the local Bishop was opposing them.  A second group was set up to investigate because there were issues between the Bishop and the Franciscans and the Church was being careful to have an unbiased perspective as best it could.  Reading Jimmy’s article I found no indication he is pro or con Medjugorje. He simply says perhaps Benedict is showing us the kind of standards he is setting in deciding the authenticity of these events. Perhaps people know a view of Jimmy’s that I don’t know. I mentioned John Paul II’s positive responses and the need to wait for the Church to come to a conclusion because there are so many negative assumptions in the responses and these facts are pertinent.  It’s not a different set of rules.  If I start labelling and projecting I will fall into the same trap and occasion of sin.  We should be careful to try not to offend the Lord.

Patt:
Regarding your admitting that you are ignorant of vocations coming from Medjugorje, perhaps you could do a Google search on “cardinal schonborn Medjugorje close seminaries” and report back what you find. You might also look up “Fr. Donald Calloway Medjugorje” and “Fr. Michael Lightner Medjugorje” while you’re at it. If by stating that you find “nothing worthy of note” about the seers, you mean that none of the six alleged seers have pursued a religious vocation, I disagree with your assumption. Living out the married life according to one’s vocation can lead one to holiness and extraordinary grace through the sacrament. Don’t you think that today, perhaps more than at any time in history, we need good examples of married couples living holy lives? It is not my goal to convince you or any others here of anything but I wish merely to point out some flaws in the “arguments” expressed. For most of you here it seems that the case of Medjugorje is closed but in fact the Church, no matter how much you wish it to be otherwise, has not yet given its verdict on the authenticity of the apparitions. Much of what people are writing here is simply opinion dripping with bias and falls short of any clear analysis.

@Magdalene on Friday, Dec 3, 2010 2:47 PM
Are you aware of what Our Lady told St. Catherine Labouré when the visionary expressed her dismay to the Madonna that her spiritual director, Father Aladel, did not believe that the nun was experiencing apparitions?

Six visionaries.  30 years.  40,000 “encounters” with the most holy Mother of God—and zero religious vocations from one of them?  Yes, marriage is a holy sacrament.  Yes, married folk can become saints, but the Roman Catholic Church has, since St. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 7, formally taught that the consecrated life is objectively superior to the married state.  It affords an unmediated union with Christ.  Period.

This anomaly is not, on its own, a deal breaker for Medjugore, but it’s one more contrast between it and approved apparitions.  I could go on, but I’m tired of being flamed by the zealots who troll for comments by people who support Bishop Peric, the Zadar Declaration, and Bishop Zanic.  The relentless thin-skinned defensiveness toward a rejected apparition is now officially old, people.

Yes, rejected.  The current pronouncement of non constat de supernaturalitate is not the same as constat de non supernaturalitate (full condemnation) but, since it’s not an approval, it’s a form of rejection.  We leave the final nail to be hammered by the Ruini Commission, with (please please please) the signature of Benedict XI on it.  The open skepticism of Joseph Ratzinger on Medjugorje is a matter of public record.  He knows more about Medjugorje than all of us combined, twice over.

Now, in the bizarre event that the phenomenon is officially approved (stranger things have happened in the history of the world) no Catholic will have to believe in it. 

But—and here’s the rub—if it’s officially condemned (a la Bayside, Necedeh, Holy Love etc.), the Medjugorje zealots will have a lot of heavy emotional and spiritual lifting to do.

And some, God forbid, will not be up to the task.  They know better.

@David Mann brother, that was well said - every part of it. Will it change the mind and heart of the zealot?, no, that’s very unlikely and the evidence of that unlikelihood is shown once again in the defensive yet as you say, “old” responses above.

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At the risk of repeating my own comment above, Cardinal Arinze has it spot on (see above) - interestingly his remarks (that I quoted above) didn’t draw one comment. Too bad. Maybe he just made too much sense.

There is so much depth, so much spiritual wealth, so much healing, hope, conversion potential in every Mass, in every Sacrament every time we approach it honestly, in every writing of the past 2000 years of the magesterium, that I can’t even begin to imagine exhausting all that. Again, as Arinze says, “Apparition, apparition, apparition…[do I go on pilgrimage?]...Yes, I go on pilgrimage to the Mass, to Adoration, to Jerusalem.”

Reading through of the comments on Medjugorje devotees and the shrill “defence” and, yes, arrogance, and disdain of Mother’s Church’s Authority from its Zealots, I must repeat what I stated before.  We are dealing with tricksters here. Our Lady cannot have supplanted Her Son to have been engaged the Catholic Faithful for 30 years continuously, sending conflicting Messages , at times, quite contrary to the Authority of the Church, Her Teachings and the Scriptures. The authentic Apparitions of Our Lady have never deviated from what the Church proclaims and Teaches.  She always points us towards Her Son, exhorts us to listed to her message with Humility and in always subject Her messages to the scrutiny and approval- in TOTAL OBEDIENCE - to Mother Church.  Why?  As I said before, because God cannot contradict Himself. Our Lady, therefore, will be sent as His Witness for a specific time - in the same pattern she has done before - at a particular time in History when mankind is in danger of eclipsing God from their lives to exhort us to change our sinful ways. She then passes on God’s Message to the world exhorting obedience to God’s Law and His Church and Her predictions always come to pass. I reiterate - disobedience or calumny to the Authority of the Church, simply means here we are dealing the the angel of darkness disguising himself - as usual - as the angel of light to ferment disharmony in the Church.  But because of his pride, Mother Church always exposes him in the end.

Some time ago, I wrote to the President of a Catholic Bishops Conference concerned about a friar who was having “mystical experiences” during face to face Confession whilst more often than not, the female penitents fall into “ecstacies” accompanied by the “perfume” of roses.
He stated he could always “tell” a particular personal matter.
Consequently, he was well sought after by the female gender includng religious, with no concerns from any Bishop or Superior.
He was always welcome within a diocese staying over night at out of town locations but not in prespyerties.
Maybe the local priests never offered him a bed.
It all sounded a little suss to me and I expressed my concerns quite openly.
Someone had a duty of care for both the friar and the women; mystical experiences or not.
He wasn’t impatial to full body massages either and there were always willing hands to oblige..
Actually he was on the rebound, maybe that’s why they all turned a blind eye; they didn’t want to lose him, no one did I suppose.

re Medjugorje vocations… parish authorities estimate that at least 1,000 priests and religious have received their vocations through Medjugorje, and that does not include those religious whose vocations have been renewed through the phenomenon.

The parish has a list of almost 600 signed affidavits by religious testifying to the fact that their vocation came as a result of the Medjugorje phenomenon. This current Vatican commission study is aware of this list as it is of the many recorded testimonies of miracles.

Pam said: Perhaps you heard that the local Bishop was opposing them.  A second group was set up to investigate because there were issues between the Bishop and the Franciscans and the Church was being careful to have an unbiased perspective as best it could.

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Pam - It’s pretty clear you are getting your are getting your information about the Herzegovina case from the websites of protagonists who have proliferated untruths about it.  Wny not inform yourself with what the Holy See has said about the reason for this new Commission? What was the world told by the Vatican spokesman?
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Here is what Catholic News Service reported in the wake of the Commission announcement: Father Lombardi said the bishops of Bosnia-Herzegovina asked the doctrinal congregation to study the alleged apparitions.
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Here is what Zenit reported from that press conference: “The bishops of Bosnia and Herzegovina therefore requested that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome to take the situation into its hands,” added Father Lombardi.
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I, for one, think we should take the Vatican spokesman at his word, that the Bishops of BiH asked the Holy See to intervene.  Further, the reason given by Fr. Lombardi is consistent with a provision in the criteria used to discern apparitions where it says (my comments in brackets; bold emphasis mine):
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1. a) The Ordinary can request intervention of the Sacred Congregation, even after he has carried out his part, or a qualified group of the faithful can ask [keep reading and note the qualifier =>]. In the latter case care should be taken lest recourse to the Sacred Congregation be made for reasons that are suspect (e.g. to compel the Ordinary to change his legitimate decisions, to confirm some sectarian group, etc.). [Hence, the Vatican will not take on the case because a group of people disagree with the local bishop (including the local Franciscans who are already in hot water with the Holy See…. read on])
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b) It is proper to the Sacred Congregation to intervene at its own initiative in more serious cases, <b>especially if the matter affects a larger part of the Church<b>; [FLASH:]the Ordinary is always to be consulted and, if appropriate, also the Episcopal Conference. [It makes perfect sense that Bishop Peric is not a part of the new Commission, but this does not exclude him, and his documents, from consultation].
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For a third time in this thread, I invite people to read the actual decree behind the so-called “rift” that is allegedly between “the local bishop and local Fransicans”.  People who say this have been at the mercy of Medjugorje protagonist authors who have talked ABOUT the decree Romanis Pontificibus, but these readers would do well to read it.  It was professionally translated and released a few weeks ago by a competent canonist and latinist, Dr. Edward Peters. You will now find it, in English at the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno website:
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Go read the 1975 Decree, Romanis Pontificibus. You will learn that the local bishops of Mostar-Duvno have, since 1975, been attempting to implement the will of the Holy See.  The local Franciscan community has repeatedly been on the receiving end of disciplinary actions over their disobedience in this regard up to the point of 9 Franciscans USURPING several parishes, resulting in their dismissal from the OFM, and a divinis suspensions.  These same suspended priests continue to act like lawful priests imparting invalid sacraments a stone-throw from Medjugorje, yet the “gospa” seems not to be concerned with this, including 800 INVALID CONFIRMATIONS.
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Read more about this, with links to the list of the 9 suspended priests, and over 20 other priests (including Fr. Zovko) who are without faculties in the diocese of Mostar-Duvno over Romanis Pontificibus.  It is in my introduction to the release of the translation some weeks ago. Preceding this, the decree has only been available in Latin and Croatian.
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Please inform yourself with official documents and statements from the Holy See, Religious Order, and Diocese, not interpretations found at protagonist websites.

It’s comforting to read such discernment, which ever way the Holy See reports, you all will be alright. The friar I made mention of was of the Medjugorjie ilk, with the following and pilgrimages as spiritual director, it was sad to see him caught up in it.
When the rug was finally pulled out from under his feet he had nowhere to go, was lost and exploited by his Order.
Benedict needs to reach out to all those caught up in it as well and I believe this is what he is doing by singling them out, to make up for their exploitation and focus on the safety of the guidelines of the Church.

David and Owen, You sound as zealously opposed to the apparitions as you say others are zealously in favor!  Why such strong disdain?  Both sides need to just live their faith and WAIT for the CHURCH’S decision.  God’s ways are unscrutable and the fact that this apparition is different from any other is irrelevant. THE CHURCH HAS NOT DECIDED YET.  Cardinal Arinze is merely stating what we all know is true.  Regardless of the authenticity of any apparition, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Church’s greatest prayer.  He is avoiding the issue all together, not condemning or approving. Let’s all go to confession.

Diane, I got my information from books by Wayne Weible and Rene Laurentin. Thank you for the links.  These documents speak to the problems between the Franciscans and the Diocese, but not to the apparition itself.  It is stunning to see such division in the Church there.  Dividing parishes, taking and adding jurisdiction, priests openly disobeying…sad that it was necessary.  We are in terrible times. The implications can be taken two ways: 1. Wherever Jesus is, Satan will raise a ruckus. or 2. The fruit look bad.  This is why NONE of us should be making any judgments.  The Holy Spirit will lead the CHURCH to the truth and we must wait. This should all just make us want to pray more and stay in God’s grace and pray for our priesthood.

@Pam, it’s hard to judge properly how anyone ‘sounds’ - does, for instance, Cardinal Arinze sound zealous to you? but yes, wait, wait is exactly right.

The difference is there are those wait and focus our attention and worship , energies (and to be frank our money as well) on that which the Church has approved and then there are those ‘wait’ and participate fully in the alleged apparition which the Church has not approved and which Her good stewards and shepherds have repeatedly warned against and held openly in question. The clearest ‘fruit’ I choose to measure by is obedience and submission both of which are greatly in want in the vast majority of the Medjugorje-faithful.

Is it zealous to do as sacred Scripture says, despise not the Holy Spirit but test everything? Is it zealotry to speak out on this matter as the Church herself has? If that sounds like zealotry to you then, dear sister in-Christ, it’s nothing I can effect otherwise and the words of Abraham in his Mizpah prayer with Lot come to mind, ‘The Lord watch between me and thee while we are absent from one another,’ which is not as benign a prayer as it may sound on first look.

I put far more stock in Karen Johnson’s moving testament to her experience and recognition of Our Lady’s maternal presence at Medjugorje - and the millions like her who have experienced the same thing - then the career Medjugorje haters like Diane at Te Deum. Clearly, her rigid opposition to the positive fruit of Medjugorje is fanatical…

And, there it is, directly above from Mary on Monday, testimony of experience and the endorsement of personal claims of the “millions” over obedience and submission to the Church and Her teaching and the fact that this sort of experience leads its faithful to the fruit to call another sister in-Christ a “hater.”

Pam mentions the very real grief over division caused in the Church because of this issue and in that she is right and had the visionaries and priests and folks associated with it been observant and obedient and in submission to Her, decades ago, this entire carnal story of *I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos* would not likely be what it is today.

I’m off to ‘wait’ in obedience now and though Pam says Cardinal Arinze was only stating the obvious of what we all know and was avoiding the issue (how discerns this is problematic) I am also off to regular Confession, (though not over anything said here), off to Adoration, off to Mass, off to the LOTH and off this thread with thanks to Jimmy for allowing extended discussion on an important matter and thanks to Diane at Te Deum for careful, reasoned and reasonable analysis.

—-

Next up, for a different article and fun in the combox how about the TLM in Cincinnati? ;-) Great story here http://richleonardi.blogspot.com/2010_11_28_archive.html and here http://www.unavocecincinnati.org/ and here http://www.restorestmarks.org/ and no, I am not a rad-trad though I could easily be moved to worship the Lord at a TLM.

@Pam
Of course Romanis Pontificibus does not discuss Medjugorje

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Don’t you think this is odd: 9 former Franciscans of the Herzegovina province (expelled by the OFM in Rome; a divinis suspensions upheld in Rome), celebrate Mass daily, perform marriages, hear confessions which are invalid, and were responsible for 800 invalid confirmations - some less than 30-60 minutes from Medjugorje ......

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All of this has been happening since the late 90’s. And, the “gospa” doesn’t say a word?

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I see now. It’s perfectly clear. Why would Medjugorje supporters see the importance of the “gospa”  bothering to warn the local population that they are putting their immortal souls in jeopardy by knowingly going to priests who are suspended -  a divinis - to hear their confessions - making the confession invalid?

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As for Father Laurentin, there is plenty to say about his work on Medjugorje, but that will have to wait until tonight.
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Let me clarify:
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In over 40,000 messages the “gospa” has not seen it fit to warn the locals about their participation in invalid sacraments.

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Again….that is absolutely mind-boggling alone with regards to discernment if this alleged apparition.

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Thanks be to GOD the Holy See is going to offer a final discernment in the matter because the Church does not place positive, personal experience over hard negative evidence.

And BTW - it is a mortal sin for any one to have one of those 9 priests hear their confessions if they are aware that they are suspended a divinis and without faculties. The local population has been informed, repeatedly, nit to go to those 3 parishes that were forcibly usurped in the 90’s. Yet, people in that region, not far from Medjugorje, go there.

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I suppose their souls, as well as the souls of those 9 priests aren’t important enough for the “gospa” to mention! But, the “gospa” has, how many times, mentioned this person or that - like Tomislav Vlasic - in a favorable way.

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Once again: it’s clear what is important and unimportant to Medjugorje supporters when it comes to discernment.

Diane. Supposing the Church does give the nod to the Medjugorje phenomenon, how would your boggling mind cope with your incredulity “that in over 40,000 messages the ‘gospa’ has not seen fit to warn the locals about their participation in invalid sacraments”?

You should know that God has his own way of turning negatives into positives, the bad into good, the water into wine. He does what he wills, even when some turn against his will. Their actions do not negate his will.

I find it strange that you seek Our Lady to speak in a way that you expect, yet deny her messages are real anyway. So you are looking for a truth in something that you claim to be a falsehood.

Yes there are truths in Our Lady’s messages, yet you would prefer to present a claim absent from her messages rather than confirm any truth in her messages. This can only be because you believe that the messages do not come from Our Lady.

So why do you demand Our Lady to speak according to your truth when you simply don’t believe anyway?

Would you believe if she did speak according to your comment about the priests? Or would you look for more reasons not to believe the messages?

Like I said, where are the miracles? No religious vocations from the seers, and 30 YEARS of visions??? Very doubtful this is real. But since you want to believe it—I am sure you will. This “apparition” has caused too much turmoil with people taking sides. I’ll stick to the proven ones like Fatima, thank you.

@pilgrim - I must have missed the decree. That is, the one which has declared that the entity of Medjugorje is, in fact, “Our Lady”.
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I’m going to turn the question back around and ask you what I asked Karen Johnson - twice without response in this thread:

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Are you going to accept the final discernment of the Holy See, or go with your own personal discernment, based on personal experience, if the Holy See rules negatively on the events?

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Setting aside the invalid title you gave to the alleged apparition of Medjugorje (since the Church has not declared that Our Lady is appearing to those visionaries), I am not required to believe it is authentic even if it is declared such by the Church.

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That having been said, I am committed to reading any and all information offered by the Holy See, should an approval ever come. Approval would never come while ongoing, but a negative judgment can come at any time to protect the faithful and the good name of the Church (Bayside, Holy Live).

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Now, your turn pilgrim. Will you accept the final discernment of the Holy See if a negative judgment comes forth, or go with your own personal discernment.

Diane, I’m not surprised you choose not to answer my question.

But I will answer yours and say that I will have no problem accepting the final discernment of the Holy See.

Now Diane, before you fire off more questions, can you give a little time to answering mine? Or is that just too much to ask of you?

If you are not prepared to answer, don’t you think it is asomewhat unreasonable of you to continue to make demands on of other to answer your questions – and I can include in this your expectation of Our Lady of Medjugorje to speak in the way you would want her to.

By the way, after spending three years in BiH with the Franciscan sisters discerning if you had a religious vocation or not, what led you to the conclusion that you hadn’t? Or was it the discernment of others that decided the outcome? That’s two questions, plus the one I’m waiting to receive an answer on from my previous post. :)

Pam:  For your sake, stop drinking the Weible-Laurentin kool-aid, and at LEAST read a less partisan account of Medjugorje, like The Hidden Side of Medjugorje, by a Medjugorje-born Franciscan named Father Ivo Sivric, OFM.  If half of his account is true, Medjugorje is either a diabolical deception or a human-made farce, aided and abetted by ex-priests who either fathered children while priests (Vlasic and Vego, for instance.)  For his balanced, scholarly research, Father Sivric got death threats from fans of the Gospa before his death in 2002.  Amazing.

Why mention these scandalous facts?  The reason is that the “seers” claimed that Our Lady appeared to them on 13 occasions stating that Father Vego was innocent, that he was as entitled to celebrate Mass as any other priest, and that the bishop was harsh!  The other mentor and longtime spiritual director of the “seers,” Father Jozo Zovko, has been suspended.  Along with genuine conversions, the greater fruit of Medjugorje is global disobedience and division.  You can almost hear the devil cackling.

For Mary to call the patient and charitable Diane a “career hater” is unconscionable but it also reveals the sense of anger and fanaticism that comes with zeal for this pointedly, consistently unapproved apparition.  Amazing.

Hey, Patrick, don’t we all have “hidden sides”? Doesn’t the Church itself have a few skeletons in its cupboard? But none of this dark side obscures the light and the truth of Christ or negate his mercy and love, or even his will. Look for the dark side as much as you wish. There is always something to find lurking in the shadows, even in our own lives. That’s why Christ came to bring light into the world.

Medjugorje may have its dark corners but it also exudes the light of Christ. Dark corners do not prevent God from reaching in and providing light. Hence our Blessed Mother’s visitations to bring Christ into the world. This is what she always does. To bring light into darkness.

But I guess some people just prefer to try and focus in the dark without wanting the light. That’s how blindness can set in if they remain in the dark too long.

If you ever get the opportunity to stand in line for confession at Medjugorje, you will witness first hand that sin exists in Medjugorje. Sometimes there can be as many as 100 priests hearing confessions. So no one is kidding themselves that there ain’t no sin in Medjugorje. The wonder is that there is also much grace abounding in the place when these sins are absolved.

Why even the Pope makes his confession. I heard that JPII went every day!

@pilgrim,

As far as I’m concerned I answered the question, in as much is as reasonable. There is a point that does not seem to be penetrating. No one HAS TO BELIEVE the BVM is appearing to visionaries of Medjugorje, even if Holy See declares it authentic.

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I’ll repeat how I answered your question the first time. While I am FREE to not accept such a positive decision should it come, I would review all that the CDF and Holy Father have to offer to see if anything was overturned among the facts found by the bishop.

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I really do not believe that you understand the gravity of the local situation concerning the invalid sacraments. Theologically, it makes no sense that the BVM, if she were appearing there, would show no concern for souls jeopardizing their salvation by willingly partaking in invalid sacraments.

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Further, I would like to ask, by what justification do you use the unauthorized title “Our Lady of Medjugorje” to describe the entity allegedly appearing to those visionaries? This shows all the more, a sad misunderstand that such titles are deemed authorized only by Holy Mother Church.

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Just to make things very clear, I am very devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary, so much so, that I have become a secular Carmelite. I believe in the approved apparitions if Lourdes, Fatima, and Guadalupe. What I find really sad, is that supporters of Medjugorje seem to think that those who disbelieve in Medjugorje dont believe in the BVM, or that they have no devotion to her. That is wrong - period - and it is a negative fruit. Followers of authentic apparitions don’t do those things.

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With regards to my vocation, I left after 2.5 years under 100 lbs due to chronic stomach problems. I was hospitalized for three days when I got back stateside, having stayed longer than I should have. The problems were caused by an intolerance of mineral, spring, or well water that I did not know I had. It prevents me from traveling abroad yet today. When I go anywhere, even to my sister’s, an hour away, I must take distilled or non-mineralized drinking water. I have also gone through two surgeries since coming back to the US, one of them to remove my gallbladder which was also faulty.  Further, I walked out in good standing, with a letter from the provincial who recommended that pursue my vocation stateside. Sadly, there were no orders that came close to what I was comfortable with. Had the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist been around back then, I would have joined them. Instead, I decided to spend life as a dedicated single because my heart had already been given to Christ, and can’t be divided between two loves.

Diane, thank you for responding to my questions, although I see that you still prefer to skirt around giving a direct answer to my first question, which I can understand as it highlights the flaw in your thinking and assumptions.

I don’t doubt you devotion to the BVM. Never did.

But you must also recognise that I am free to refer to the BVM in the way I choose in my own devotion. I happen to connect her to Medjugorje. I’m sure there were those who would attach Our Lady’s name to Fatima and Lourdes before any final discernment by the Church.

As far as being wrong because I choose to do this, then that just about sums your somewhat “righteous” attitude. Those who do not share your views are “wrong” because you are “right”. This approach can be very revealing. It can show an insecurity and fear in the person who has to be right and goes to great lengths, even to nit-pick, to prove they are right. The danger is that the “righteous” person can become intolerant, all the time claiming they they are devoted to Jesus and Mary but failing to listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit that perhaps, on some occasions, may be saying that they may not be “right” in everything.

Suggesting that souls are in danger because of illegal confessions really does undermine the mercy and love of God. Attempting to out-think God in his mercy is not the best of moves to make. We start to put God in a box when we do this. We start to demand from God what we want and not what he seeks from us. We start to spoil his plan because we are right. You should know that God’s ways are not always our ways, that his sense of mercy can differ greatly to the mercy we are prepared to show others.

So Diane, try and show a little mercy to all the priests that you have pointed the finger at, and anyone else connected to Medjugorje that doesn’t fit your expectations. Pray for them and leave the outcome to the Holy Spirit.

Preaching over, and keep taking those wonderful photos. That is a gift of yours I really do thank you for sharing with the world.

I sure wish Rome would move on Medjugorje. The hostility shown to those of us who find it just a teensy bit ridiculous that the BVM would be hanging out for 30 years giving out banal messages, going against the local bishop, promoting division among the faithful, and generally showing none of the fruits of the already approved apparitions of the Church seems proof enough for me that this whole thing is a gigantic hoax.

Big moneymaker though.

Yes, there is plenty of cash in Medjugorje, all kinds of currencies floating about. Even the local bishop’s office has not been slow to avail itself of the money available in Medjugorje. For the best reasons, I may add.

ALL Mass stipends gpaid to the Medjugorje parish are recorded and a receipt given, stamped with the Mostar diocese logo. The Medjugorje parish does not receive a penny of any of the Mass stipends, all of which is collected by the bishop’s office and distributed to poorer parishes decimated in numbers after the war and the exodus of Catholics in the diocese. And then there is the magnificent new bishop’s palace to be paid for.

So thank God for the pilgrim’s cash which is helping to rebuild the bishop’s diocese and improving facilities for visiting pilgrims to Medjugorje. But it has a long way to go to reach the cash levels generated by pilgrims in Rome, Lourdes and Fatima.

The building projects undertaken by the friars at Medjugorje have the current bishop’s blessing. They can’t build without his approval. All this is considered as part of improving the pastoral needs of the pilgrims which the Holy See insists on.

As for the local people, some are poor, some are rich, some have good years and bad years. Most of the house owners will have mortgages to pay off, and now the government has recently stepped in to grab its slice of the cake by taxing house owners 17% on the money they take for boarding pilgrims.

And it’s good to see local people employed in all of the building work. It stops them having to leave home and work in Germany as their fathers had to. Now families can remain intact.

Pilgrim:

I hope you’re not deliberately missing the point.  Why are you equating inconvenient facts about Medjugorje with “looking for the dark side?”  You have nothing whatsoever to say about the fact that the Gospa (?) backed the disobedient (scandal-ridden to boot) priests and sided AGAINST the Bishop.  This is a big problem, not some fringy search for skeletons. 

“Medjugorje may have its dark corners but it also exudes the light of Christ.”

Well, yes, the sacraments are celebrated there and the gospel is preached there.  The Catholic Church teaches that there is nothing supernatural happening in and through the “seers,” however.  Medjugorje is an unapproved apparition.  You write as though you hold a different conclusion.  Another word for this is disobedience.

“But I guess some people just prefer to try and focus in the dark without wanting the light. That’s how blindness can set in if they remain in the dark too long.”

Ah, *my* blindness.  Doesn’t get more Orwellian than this.  Let’s bring in the blindness of the late Bishop Zanic, Bishop Peric, the Zadar Statement, and of Cardinal Bertone who directs the faithful to the Zadar Statement, and the really disturbing blindness of Joseph Ratzinger for expressing explicit doubt about Medjugorje in more than one interview, and the blindness of the former prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, José Cardinal Saraiva Martin, who is a skeptic; and lest we forget, the blindness of the distinguished German theologian Father Manfred Hauke.
 
“If you ever get the opportunity to stand in line for confession at Medjugorje, you will witness first hand that sin exists in Medjugorje. Sometimes there can be as many as 100 priests hearing confessions. So no one is kidding themselves that there ain’t no sin in Medjugorje.”

I never said a thing about “sinlessness in Medjugorje.”  I give up. 

Over and out.

Patrick, you say: <<The Catholic Church teaches that there is nothing supernatural happening in and through the “seers,” however.>>

That’s not fact. Check the Zadar declaration. It says “it cannot be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations”. (On the basis of investigations so far). It does not say that there is nothing supernatural happening. Subtle but important difference.

If the Church is teaching what you claim then why has the Pope instituted another Commission recently to examine the Medjugorje Phenomenon?

And since when does an opinion about something translate into disobedience? :)

Disobedience, the sin of Adam and Eve, who disobeyed the commandment of God. Not the first to do so, I guess. Otherwise what need have we of repentance and reconciliation with God. Disobedience does not negate the mercy of God. If fact it brings us to our knees asking for mercy, not condemnation. Hence the wonderful graces at Medjugorje, especially for those who choose to humble themselves and confess their ‘disobedience” and be freed of their sin. Yet there will always be those who are not prepared to forgive the disobedience of others, and even themselves.

Ooooh, if you knew how tempting it is to reply to each of your rebuttals, “pilgrim.”  (What’s with the fake anonymous name….?)  But I’m done.

Patrick, free will allows us to make choices. I choose the name “pilgrim” because I receognise myself as a “pilgrim” in this life.

When John wrote his Gospel he preferred to use a description of himself as “the one whom Jesus loves” reflecting that he was fully aware of the love of Christ and had accepted this love in his heart. Yet we all know his name was John.

It is not sinful to do this, just a recognition of my status in life and proclaiming it rather than proclaiming my own name.

Hope my explanation answers your question.

Peace

http://www.olrl.org/prophecy/medjugorje.shtml

Pilgrim go to this link.

Thanks Miriam, but I never bother looking at prophecy links.

I mentioned earlier that since Father Laurentin was brought up as a “go to” source, no understanding of his work would be complete without the thorough analysis of Louis Belanger.  It’s amazing how a phenomena could spread so fast around the world, unless you take careful note of the omissions and modifications that were presented by some of the main protagonists, including Fr. Laurentin.

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Go read: Medjugorje: The Grand Concealment – 2) “Three more days!” – Duplicity – René Laurentin, by Louis Belanger.  Visit his homepage too.  He is the Editor of The Hidden Side of Medjugorje, which was authored by Fr. Ivo Sivric, OFM, born in Medjugorje.

For those interested, I mentioned earlier, also, that there were 9 priests suspended a divinis and expelled from the OFM.  Keep in mind, these first nine are operating in usurped parishes and were disciplined severely by the Church. 
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So much disorder. So much disobedience.  So many invalid sacraments and division - all in the backyard of the alleged apparition of Medjugorje…. and ... she ... says .... nothing!  “Her” silence says it all.

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Here are the nine:
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- Petar (bivši fra Bonifacije) Barbari?
- Bože Radoš
- Mile Vlaši?
- Luka Mari?
- Branko (bivši fra Leonard) Hrka?
- Stanko Pavlovi?
- Martin Planini?
- Žarko (bivši fra Bernard) Mari?
- Ante Šaravanja
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Here are all of those Franciscans in the diocese of Mostar-Duvno without faculties, many since the late ‘90’s.
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1. Fra Vlado Bunti?
2. Fra Drago ?olak
3. Fra Klement Gali?
4. Fra Žarko Ili?
5. Fra Jozo Joli?
6. Fra Dane Kara?i?
7. Fra Vendelin Kara?i?
8. Fra Zdenko Kara?i?
9. Fra Kornelije Kordi?
10. Fra Vladimir Kozina
11. Fra Petar Krasi?
12. Fra Berislav Kutle
13. Fra Tihomir Kutle
14. Fra Vlado Lon?ar
15. Fra Ferdo Maji?
16. Fra Vinko Mikuli?
17. Fra Gojko Musa
18. Fra Vitomir Musa
19. Fra Andrija Niki?
20. Fra Jozo Peji?
21. Fra Ante Penava
22. Fra Ante Tomas
23. Fra Jozo Zovko na podru?ju Mostarsko-duvanjske i Trebinjsko-mrkanske biskupije nema nikakvih ovlasti vršiti sve?eni?ke ?ine, posebno nema ovlast ispovijedati vjernike (Vrhbosna, br. 3/2004., str. 293-298).
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This last piece on Fr Jozo goes back to a bulletin from 2004.  Here it is through a google translator on the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno website.

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A summary of much of what is here, is provided in English by Mark Waterinckx.  He has a quite a canonical rap sheet.

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Italian researcher Marco Corvaglia talks more about the Herzegovina expulsions, as well.

I forgot to add Louis Belanger’s homepage.  He’s got great stuff there - photos, videos - and lots of unambiguous facts. Here it is:

http://en.louisbelanger.com/

Ah, that google translation link didn’t work. 
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Here is the real link: http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=194
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Go to google.  Select Language Tools to the right of the search bar, then plug that link in.  Set it to translate from Croatian.

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Here is the link to the Diocesan page containing all those names: http://cbismo.com/index.php?menuID=36

Nothing like getting a balanced opinion so here are a few other links that deal with the Medjugorje phenomenon – all from the Medjugorje Information Centre’s website. And that’s enough from me for the time being. Anyone who hasn’t the time and inclination to plough through the pros and cons presented via these links may care to just wait for the outcome of the current Vatican Commission study. It will be less confusing and time consuming. Expect an announcement of some kind after Easter. But don’t count on the study shaking its head or giving a nod to the validity of the apparitions. That’s a long way-off. The interim report will provide an announcement to ensure that the tree producing good fruit is protected! I await with hope and joyful expectation!

Medjugorje in the Church
http://medjugorje.hr/en/medjugorje-phenomenon/church/bishops/

The stance of the Bishop of Mostar
http://medjugorje.hr/en/medjugorje-phenomenon/church/bishops/mostar/

Church Shpherds about Medjugorje
http://medjugorje.hr/en/medjugorje-phenomenon/church/bishops/shepherds/

Scientific Researches
http://medjugorje.hr/en/medjugorje-phenomenon/church/scientific-researches/individual/

Individual Researches
http://medjugorje.hr/en/medjugorje-phenomenon/church/scientific-researches/individual/

Commission and teams
http://medjugorje.hr/en/medjugorje-phenomenon/church/scientific-researches/individual/

Word from the Vatican
http://medjugorje.hr/en/medjugorje-phenomenon/vatican/

Statistics
http://medjugorje.hr/en/medjugorje-phenomenon/statistics/

Thought from the Bible
http://medjugorje.hr/en/spirituality/bible/

Theological reflections
http://medjugorje.hr/en/spirituality/theological-reflections/apparitions/

“Private” revelation and Medjugorje
http://medjugorje.hr/en/spirituality/theological-reflections/apparitions/

and much more! :)

Nothing like getting a balanced opinion so here’s a route to information that deals with the Medjugorje phenomenon in a different way to the contacts supplied by Diane. And that’s enough from me for the time being. Anyone who hasn’t the time and inclination to plough through the pros and cons presented via these links may care to just wait for the outcome of the current Vatican Commission study. It will be less confusing and time consuming. Expect an announcement of some kind after Easter. But don’t count on the study shaking its head or giving a nod to the validity of the apparitions. That’s a long way-off. The interim report will provide an announcement to ensure that the tree producing good fruit is protected! I await with hope and joyful expectation!

http://medjugorje.hr/en/medjugorje-phenomenon/detailed-description/

I think there is a reasonable possibility that we will see something earlier in 2011 - February or March.  Most likely it will be a Marian feast day and my money is on March 25th - the Feast of the Annunciation.  It is when Mary gave her “fiat” - her obedience. By reflecting on her obedience to the will of God for her, and her prompt cooperation, we reflect on our cooperation with God’s will for us as it comes through Holy Mother Church. The Annunciation is when Mary becomes a Tabernacle for Christ who begins to develop in her womb. Mary always draws us to Christ.  She is in the foreground only for a time - until the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us.  Then, she fades into the background with a few specific accounts in Scripture of great importance.  And, so it has been with approved apparitions over time - she is in the foreground for a brief and limited number of times, then steps back so that her Son becomes the center of attention.  She leads us to Him, but is not the object, He Is.

Diane, I have not known of any apparition that was not opposed while it was ongoing, so it doesn’t distress me in the least that Medjugorje is opposed.  It isn’t a competition.  The apparitions are valid or they are not.  That Satan is active where the Blessed Mother appears would be normal.  So the turmoil, especially with an apparition lasting so long, would be expected, but so would the peace and the conversions and the vocations of the pilgrims.  In the end times Jesus said first their would be wars and famines and earthquakes and the Ocean would be acting up.  He said there would be incredible phenomena in the sky as well.  So I wonder if He is closer than He has ever been to returning.  And I think it doesn’t matter if Medjugorje is authentic, if it is making us realize we do not know the day or the hour when Christ will return and we should be living as though it could be any minute.  Pray for those priests who are defrocked or expelled and pray for those who are censured and pray for us all and yourself.  God bless.

Dear Pam - of course we need to pray for those priests - all of them.  The greatet outcome would be for all of the priests on that list to reconcile with Holy Mother Church. 

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I was reflecting a little more on what I posted just before your comment, which you may have been writing at the same time.  Just recalling again, that in Scripture, Mary was only in the foreground for a brief period of time - up to and including the Annunciation and through the birth of Our Lord.  She begins to fade back in Scripture, coming back only a limited number of times, and for very specific and significant events after Christ’s childhood (i.e., Wedding at Cana, foot of the Cross, etc.). She does not remain in the foreground throughout the 33 year life of Our Lord.

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Hence, the fact that the entity of Medjugorje has appeared over 40,000 times in nearly 30 years, is a sign that this alleged phenomena is incompatible with Scripture. 

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There we have it… there is a “Great Sign” after all.

“Hence, the fact that the entity of Medjugorje has appeared over 40,000 times in nearly 30 years, is a sign that this alleged phenomena is incompatible with Scripture.
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There we have it… there is a “Great Sign” after all.”

Wow, I thought it was only 30,000 times. Where have I been?

Pilgrim the link I gave you is not about prophecy.

Here are a couple of paragraphs:

Medjugorje: Not Approved by the Church

“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel to you other than that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema!” (Gal. 1:9)

The past few decades have witnessed a proliferation of supposed apparitions of Our Lady. These claims of supernatural events have captured the interest of very many Catholics and have been the source of innumerable pilgrimages. Because of the deceitful artifices of the Evil One, who has so much influence today, it is extremely essential for the faithful to be wary of all such claims and to use the clear guides that the Church has given us to discern if events such as those occurring at Garabandal, Conyers, Bayside, and so on are from God or not. These guides are two: alignment of the apparitions with Church doctrine and the approbation of the Church. If either of these two principles is negated, we are committing a serious error if we give credence to the apparition, for this is a crystal clear sign that it is false and therefore from the Devil.
It is the purpose of this paper to show that, using these two guides, it is certain that the most popular of the recent averred Marian appearances, those at Medjugorje, are in every respect false and repudiated by the Church.

Medjugorje: Warned Against by the Hierarchy
It is the duty of the local bishop of the diocese in which supposed supernatural events take place to study and confirm or deny the legitimacy of the claims being made. The bishop in the diocese to which Medjugorje belongs, Msgr. Zanic of Mostar, remitted this duty by forming a diocesan commission to do an impartial inquiry into the events that had been taking place since 1981. After a few years of thorough and intense investigative study, which the Church always exercises to determine an unmistakable decision in these matters, the Bishop issued a statement in 1986 giving the results of the study. In the statement, Msgr. Zanic proclaimed that these apparitions are not made by the most Holy Virgin Mary and he forbade the pilgrimages set up from the beginning without ecclesiastical approval by the pastor of Mostar.

In a resulting interview given by Fr. Deleclos of the Libre Belgique, Msgr. Zanic was asked: “Are you, as a matter of principle, against apparitions?” The Bishop replied: “Quite the contrary! I myself have been eight times to Lourdes and I have organized pilgrimages. I have done much for the devotion to the Most Holy Virgin. I was even in Banneux, in Beauraign (Belgium), and Syracuse (Italy), three places where the apparitions of Mary had been stated as authentic.”

“However, you are not convinced of this in Medjugorje?” Reply: “I should really be glad to have a Lourdes in my diocese. It would be something grandiose. But I cannot before God, before my conscience and before the Church proclaim these apparitions are authentic and supernatural. I am certainly a sinner and unworthy to be a bishop, yet I believe it would be the worst of all the sins of my life to let this falseness pass for truth, knowing that it is a lie.” Despite these words of the Bishop, which the faithful should accept as a decision from God, people continued to flock to Medjugorje and the priest did not desist from organizing pilgrimages as ordered.

“Pilgrim”—for me, I’m more confused now.  To keep the parallel right, you’d be “the man whom the Gospa loved,” since John, in fact, did sign his real name to his Gospel and Epistles.  But your oddball way of avoiding hard questions reminds me of the hissy fit over at ministryvalues, that bastion of balance.  Weren’t you aka “bluecross” who left the party in a huff?

To call Diane K a bunch of names that go under the umbrella of “unbalanced” is funny since all she has done is PROVIDE the official assessments to date of Medjugorje.  Please.

Diane, How can I politely say that is a ridiculous statement?  Because Mary is appearing often these apparitions can’t be valid?  Perhaps in His great mercy God is allowing the Blessed Mother to have thirty three years with us!  Who are we to tell God how an apparition should be?  Please do not worry yourself one more second about these apparitions.  The Church will decide in due time.  Meanwhile practice your faith and pray without ceasing.  Do you fear Christ’s second coming?

Miriam,  When we say the Church approves an apparition we are not referring to a Bishop or priest.  We are referring to a process that is quite extensive and culminates with a written verdict from the Pope.  So saying the apparitions are false based on the opinion of the Bishop is not saying the apparitions are indeed false.  At this point he is stating an opinion that may prove to be true or false.  He is one part of a much larger process. The Church is not forbidding Catholics to go to Medjugorje and has not given a final decision on the apparitions.  If the Church in her wisdom is taking all this time, who are we to come to a conclusion sooner?

Pam and “pilgrim” and “mgseamanjr” and co:

The total sum of approved Marian apparition messages from Guadalupe to Akita will fit on 11 sheets of paper.  In God’s word, Mary is contemplative, hidden, and profound.  She “ponders these things in her heart.”  She speaks the indispensable minimum.  She’s no chatterbox, unlike the entity of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

This marathon of shallow theology and insipid platitudes has gone on for almost the entire span of the Incarnation.  No wonder the ecclesiastical authorities have consistently rendered non constat de supernaturalitate.  That IS the judgment of the Church.  You just don’t care. 

Fanatics never do.

Hey, good people, let us slow down on this sterile argument for or against these apparitions and go back to the basic unalloyed Truth.  The Holy Mother of God in all the genuine and approved Apparitions throughout the life of our Holy Catholic Church, has always pointed the Christ’s Sheep towards Her Son, reaffirmed the authenticity of the Scriptures and the Teachings of the Catholic Church and exhorted her children to always and everywhere obey and submit to the Authority of the Church, its Teachings and guidance, with total humility.  I do not see any humility here from the devotees of this Medjugorje Phenomenon.  Instead they are abusive and disdainful of anyone who dares to differ with them.  That is not Holy Mary’s Way; that is not Her Son’s Way, and that is certainly not the Holy Spirit’s Way. Disobedience of the Authority of the Church - represented in Medjugorje by the Bishop on that See - the arrogance and the calumny these devotees are throwing at anyone who tries to look at the issue in a rational manner is unacceptable and unbecoming of one who calls one a committed Catholic.  Once again let me repeat - Satan is the Father of Lies.  Satan has supernatural powers which he uses to thwart God’s work, to deceive Christ’s sheep, to confuse the world and particularly the Catholic Church Faithful.  And you shall know his work because he is proud and that trips and exposes him at whatever he working on.  Likewise, those he has managed to deceive are equally proud, intolerant and disrespectful to anyone who tries to point out where they are at variance with the authentic Church’s teaching and the teaching of Our Lady from the approved and accepted Messages from her Apparitions in well known and accepted Apparitions. The discord within the Church brought about by Medjugorje is enough evidence for any committed Catholic to realize immediately that here, we are dealing with the angle of darkness disguised as the angel of light. And to paraphrase what Christ Himself warned us about Satan’s tricks, I paraphrase Him here. “They will come in My name and deceive many.  They will perform spectacular miracles than even what I have performed and will receive many.  But I want you to be alert because the evil one will attempt to deceive even the Elect.  But My Father in Heaven will protect them….” If we are honest, we must always be guided by the Prayer of the “Act of Faith”:  “I believe You are One God in three Divine Persons, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe that Your Only Son became man and died for us and that He will come again to judge the living and the death. I believe these and all what the Truths which the Catholic Church teaches because You have revealed them, You who can neither deceive nor be deceived, Amen”. In conclusion, as another commentator has stated, if Christ’s appointed promoters of the Divine Mercy Devotion were not obedient to the Authority of the Church when the Devotion was held in abeyance because all the information, interviews with those who knew St. Faustina, and the complete record of her conversations with her Spiritual Director and Superiors and colleagues and her Diary - “Divine Mercy in my Soul” - were not available initially because of the state of confusion in Poland after the Word War II, Christ’s Plan of giving us this Devotion and the Feast of the Divine Mercy - celebrated on the fist Sunday after Easter universally from the Year 2000 - would not be with us now. And remember, St. Faustina has recorded the many conversations she held with Our Lady who assisted her in her Spiritual Journey, advising her to obey her Son’s guidance in humility and submit to the Authority of her Spiritual Director, Confessors and Superiors. So, why can’t the Medjugorje devotees humble themselves, submit and obey the Authority of the Church and wait the outcome to the Vatican’s Investigation to give the final verdict of the authenticity or otherwise and - as usual - guided by the Holy Spirit, make final Declaration about this Phenomenon?  I did state earlier that in our country every now and then someone, or some people crop up and declare they have witnessed an Apparition of Our Lady but when the Church thoroughly investigates these claims, they find they are false and the matter ends there without any fuss. I believe this is so because in this country, we still revere and respect the Authority of the Church because we know She is under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.  God never contradicts Himself. Likewise, our Holy Mother of God NEVER contradicts the Authority of the Church and, therefore CAN NEVER contradict the Authority of the Bishop of the Church when he directs his faithful on the path to follow in any given issue - more so in an issue as serious as this which is threatening to cause a major division and eventual apostacy of many within the Church. And is Satan not so gleeful when these discordant wars are going on about Medjugorje?  He certainly is very happy because this is his work.  But, thanks be to God, Christ defeated him from the Cross. I PRAY THIS MUD-SLINGING SHOULD COME TO AN END NOW AND WE AWAIT THE OUTCOME OF THE VATICAN INVESTIGATIONS’ RESULTS AND THE FINAL PRONOUNCEMENT.

Once again, Diane produces “facts” unrelated to the Medjugorje phenomenon. What has nine “disobedient” Franciscans do to with the validity of the claimed apparitions? And none of the friars were connected to the Medjugorje parish.

By coincidence there are currently nine Franciscans working in the parish of Medjugorje, all signed in and approved by the local bishop, and so I assume of good standing. So would it be correct for me to attempt to claim that their status proves the validity of the apparitions? Of course not, and neither does Diane’s attempt to link the names on the list she has presented with the validity of the apparitions. Its just a diversionary tactic on her part. Smoke and mirrors stuff – as usual.

Mary42 wrote: Instead they are abusive and disdainful of anyone who dares to differ with them.  That is not Holy Mary’s Way; that is not Her Son’s Way, and that is certainly not the Holy Spirit’s Way.

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Interesting, that is pretty much what Cardinal Bertone said in 2005 after he dared to voice his skepticims on Medjugorje and Civitavecchia and felt the “love” of devotees.  His response:

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...the ultra-Marians who heard him speak on Bruno Vespa’s “Door to door” a few evenings ago weren’t happy to hear his skepticism about the apparitions of Civitavecchia and Medjugorje, and fired back point-blank, by mail or the microphones of God: “Unseemly and offensive reactions of faithful and priests who describe themselves as ‘Medjugorjean’”, the Cardinal censured on Monday: unacceptable attacks “even from Radio Maria, certainly not compatible with the promoters of authentic Marian devotion”.

Source: http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com/2010/09/2005-article-about-cardinal-bertone-on.html

pilgrim - I didn’t say the 9 suspended priests had anything to do with Medjugorje. 

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What I did say, is that it is highly suspect that the “gospa” would thank Tomislav Vlasic for guiding the visionaries so well, while completely ignoring anti-ecclesial behavior which involved the Holy See, the OFM generalate in Rome, in addition to the diocesan bishop. Here is the notification from the OFM in Rome.

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So, the “gospa” lauds a Franciscan in one of her “messages” who, in 2008, suffered some of the most severe canonical sanctions at the hands of the Holy See, “for the diffusion of dubious doctrine, manipulation of consciences, suspect mysticism, disobedience towards legitimately issued orders and charges contra sextum.” And, who in 2009 was granted his request to be laicized rather than live with the stiff penalties imposed on him.  Even as a layman, the Holy See imposed, absolute prohibition from releasing declarations on religious matters, especially regarding the “phenomenon of Medjugorje”, under pain of excommunication.

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Let me understand this: Since the late 90’s, those 9 suspended Franciscans who usurped 3 parishes and continue today to offer invalid sacraments aren’t worth the “gospa’s” attention.  Yet, the same “gospa” who isn’t concerned enough to say something about such egregious anti-ecclesial behavior, which truly jeopardizes souls in that area, didn’t know that Tomislav Vlasic would eventually fall so heavily? Surely, the real Blessed Virgin Mary would be well informed by an all-knowing God about whom she is praising, no?

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Thanks be to God that Holy Mother Church, who has all of these facts before her, is discerning the question of Medjugorje.

Medjugorjeans, Catholics… what’s the difference. SIn is sin whatever label we care to adopt.  The abusive beahaviour of some priests worldwide does not determine God’s truth, only their own failings. That’s why there are confessionals at Medjugorje so that people can confess their sins. Even cardinal Bertone has sins to confess but does that detract from his status as cardinal? 

Is it not strange that you are able to focus on the “disobedience” of priests yet not able to see the “disobedience” in your own life by not disregarding the command of God to love your neighbour as yourself?

It’s a sin most of us fall into at times, refusing to accept God’s commandment to love and accept that we are all made in his likeness. Far easier to demonise others and point the finger because of our often righteous attitude. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and Diane, you seem to have a bagful to hurl in the direction of Medjugorje. But in hurling stones at others it can reveal a heart that is not at peace.

Diane writes: <<I didn’t say the 9 suspended priests had anything to do with Medjugorje. >>

So why introduce the list? Are you now focusing on the Franciscan Order for another reason, perhaps more personal, perhaps connected with your time of discernment with the Franciscan Sister? You gave a reason for not following through with a religious vocation but are you attaching blame of some sort for the difficulties you experienced. And could you not have taken up your vocation at home instead with the Franciscan Sisters?

Poor Tomislav Vlasic,  I never met the man, but I understand that he did much good work with pilgrims in Medjugorje. He would not be the first priest to have suffered from the stress and pressure of his vocation. Somewhere along the line his thinking went adrift and we all know the outcome that he eventually asked to be laicised, a request that the Holy Father granted.

Yes the Holy Mother is aware of our weaknesses. That is why she appears in the world, to encourage us to return to God. She respects the free will of each of us, a gift from God. And as she says in one of her Medjugorje messages: “I do not always choose the best.”

Jesus knew that Peter would deny him three times, but did that stop him from giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven? Jesus or his Blessed Mother have not come for the virtuous but for sinners. And we should not forget that Jesus addressed Judas as “friend” when the betrayer kissed him. So yes, I’m sure the Blessed Mother has the same compassion as her Son for sinners in whatever situation.

Jesus comes to save, not condemn. St Augustine did not lead the most virtuous of lives, yet he is a Doctor of the Church. By your standards, Diane, he should never have got a look in because of his past behaviour.

What a lack of humility to decide before the Church that you know the validity or lack thereof of the apparitions! and alot of stone throwing as well!

Pam, if the Blessed Mother happened to appear to me in apparition, then tell me how the Church can say that she had not. I would know for certain, but the Church would not. I am free to make a judgment. I am free to decide if the visionaries are telling lies or if the visionaries are telling the truth. The Church has not stated, that the visionaries are telling lies, not in 29 years. Some people may have opinions, but that is all it is, opinion. Diane has already mentioned that even if the Church does discern that the apparitions are fact, she is not obligated to believe. Yet if the Church decides that the claims of apparitions are false, then I am obligated to accept the discernment of the Church. But until then I am free to discern myself, and my own experiences confirm to my heart and mind that our Blessed Mother and the Holy Spirit are present in Medjugorje – big-time! But I also accept that others are free not to believe. God calls us in so many different ways. He called me at Medjugorje. And I am very happy that he did. And I tell as many people as I can about this, just like those people in the bible who were healed and went off telling others that they could see, hear and walk again! This is Good News!

And yes, Pam I am still capable of falling down at times, but now I know that it is God that lifts me up again with the wonderful and merciful love he brings to all sinners and it is the Holy Spirt that prompts me to repent of my sins.

The discussion here proves the point. Medjugorje is causing dissension and sin in the children of the church. That’s why some forums will not even allow discussion about it. Even if the Holy See says this is true, I doubt that I can ever believe in it. And that is why I am so thankful that believing in even approved apparitions is left up to each individual.

Miriam, some would disagree with you about Medjugorje just causing dissension. To many millions, Medjugorje has brought renewal in faith and a return to the sacraments. Millions have been reconciled, confessed their sins and returned to God.The Church is also renewed in this way. Stray and lost sheep have been brought back into the fold and the Shepherd and his angels in heaven are happy because of this.

But we know the route to Jesus is beset with many difficulties and obstructions. Why even the 12 disciples could not always agree with each other. And some of them had difficulty in trusting and accepting the work of Paul. But the light was among them. Our Lady ALWAYS brings the Light of Christ to shine on the darkness and disagreements in our lives. That’s why her messages are so encouraging and powerful in teaching us the way to find peace with God and with each other.

My Dear Beloved People of God, I am going to throw a hypothetical question to you all.  Should the Holy See’s Investigation lead the Holy Father into decreeing that the Medjugorje Phenomenon is false and all the Catholic Faithful must ignore the messages from these Apparitions, will you Obey and Submit to the Authority and the Voice of Christ’s Bride or will you - like Lucifer - stand up angrily, storm out of the Church in Protest and say “I SHALL NOT SERVE. I SHALL NOT SUBMIT TO YOUR AUTHORITY? In short, are you ready to arrogantly tear asunder the Mystical Body of Christ and live with the consequences?

Question has already been asked in an earlier post by Diane. I gave my answer.

But why should those “mejugorjeans” who have been renewed in the sacramental life of the Church want to leave anyway? That’s the whole point of Medjugorje. Reconciliation. That was the first call of Our Lady on the third day of the apparitions: “Peace, peace, peace, only peace. Reconcile with God and each other.”

Understand: Medjugorje is sacramental. It is not anything else. Go there and see. :)

Isn’t it a pity that all the smears and untruths that are spread about Medjugorje have cast a shadow over the fact that Medjugorje is sacramental, that the messages bring no new revelation except to encourage and teach God’s children how to walk the path to Jesus. Prayer, Fasting, Confession, Holy Mass, Adoration… None of this is new but pilgrims are renewed in their faith at Medjugorje. Such are the very special graces being poured out there. Go there, receive…

Do i believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary is in Medjugorje? Yes, i do.
Do i believe that she has appeared to the six “seers”? No, I don´t.
Everywhere where people coming together to celebrate Mass, pray, parti-
cipate in devotions, there is God with his Grace. No matter if there has
been a apparition or not.
Now, in July 9, in the Italian Catholic newspaper Avvenire, Abp Angelo
Amato, now Cardinal, said in an interview that in the 1978 document from
CDF there was only two options: Constat de supernaturalitate and Non
constat de supernaturalitate. He said: “There is no sign of Constat de
non supernaturalitate. The Zadar-declaration said about the Medjugorje-
phenomena:Non constat de supernaturalitate.
In an interview in CNA Nov 20 2009 Cardinal Puljic said: ” The doctrinal
issue of the medjugorjephenomenon is resolved, but its pastoral signifi-
cance must still be taken in account.” The Church cares of its faithful.
In the Zadar-declaration it also says that the local Bishop and the other
bishops with him should serve the faithful who in good faith still comes to Medjugorje with a proper devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, accor-
ding to Churchteaching. So perhaps it is the Bishops in BIH you should
thank, after God offcourse, for your renewal.

Nikola, the Zadar declaration includes the words: “On the basis of the investigations SO FAR…”

“Pilgrim” - the reason why you ignore my question about you being outed by ministryvalues is obvious.  But forget that.  Will you drop your allegiance to Medjugorje if the Church officially condemns the phenomenon?  Leave aside your initial outrage at the very question, because you know with 1000 percent certainty that such a thing shall never ever happen—ever—but if non constat de supernaturalitate gets downgraded (upgraded?) to constat de non supernaturalitate, will you comply?

Ginny Allen writes:
>>>Also a book on her visions was written or edited by Matthew Fox.  OH Oh!!

Oh, Fox edited a book of her visions, all right.  He edited *out* all her condemnations of sexual sins, including homosexuality and masturbation, as well as her argument against women priests and for priestly celibacy!  He twists some of what she said to try to make it “support” his flakiness while conveniently ignoring (and censoring) massive portions of her writings that contradict his “creation spirituality.”  Just compare his heavily abridged edition of Scivias with the unexpurgated version published by Paulist Press.

Fox also tries to claim Saint Francis of Assisi as a kindred spirit.  Should we reject the Poverello too? Such guilt by association is unfair.

David, in a roundabout way I think your are probably asking me the same question that Diane put to me, and again by Mary42. I gave an answer to Diane. It hasn’t changed. Check back through the comments.

Pilgrim,  I really wasn’t speaking to your comments so much as some of the condemning statements, but since you ask, aren’t you at all concerned that the apparitions could have two sources? One dark and one light. Even great saints doubted themselves on these things and submitted themselves to the Church.

David why should I be concerned? Can I not read the signs of God’s presence in people?

The scribes accused Jesus of working through the prince of devils. I’m sure you know the response Jesus made, but just in case you have forgotten, he said, “How can satan cast out satan?” (Mark 3 : 22-29)

So when I see the all the thousands of pilgrims at Medjugorje being cleansed of their sins and healed, can I seriously ask myself, “Is this the work of satan?” It is the Holy Spirit that prompts people to confess their sins, not satan.

I"d be willing to bet that this “apparition” under discussion is as false as George Washington’s teeth.

And if your that convinced, Pat, go and make yourself some money. Let me know what odds you get. :)

“Pilgrim”—you’re a game player.  Or should that be “bluecross”?  We all have to guess.  If you asked me a question, I’d give you the answer; I wouldn’t make you search back through 137 comments.

Once you open your soul up to the Traveling Chatterbox Entity of Medjugorje, all manner of kookiness and evasion eventually sets in.

You treat Satan like a dummy.  Bayside also produced real conversions; so did Necedeh.  So did that other bogus performance known as Garabandal.  So what?  The prince of this world is a thousand steps ahead of you, dude—he’s easily able to fake real apparitions (he specializes in it, as the great Doctor St. John of the Cross warned) and is very willing to let a large number of conversions take place for the sake of the real prize: global division of the one Body of Christ, the incentive of disobedience, and the calumniation of the local Ordinary.  The rancor and division in this thread is but one example wherever the Traveling Chatterbox Entity of Medjugorje becomes the topic du jour.

You have a pat pro-Medj spin for every rational objection.  You anonymous John Waynes should be embarrassed, but you’re proud. 
 
The facts tilt strongly toward the conclusion that Medjugorje is the biggest hoax since Piltdown.  The Traveling Chatterbox, going by the venerable title “Gospa” has bewitched innumerable otherwise intelligent, well-meaning people into a disturbing level of emotional addiction to subjective experience over objective Church assessment.  So many of the Medjugorje zealotry reflected here are EXACTLY the same kind of fanatical sentiment you find on Bayside websites.  Or Holy Love. 

When the Ruini Commission finally calls curtains on this diabolical sham, many of the zealots on display here will NOT accept it.  No, no, no, no.  The Chatterbox Entity will urge them to “turn negatives into positives” or some new spin against Truth.  Rinse, repeat, ad infinitum ad nauseam.

So sad.  And so needless.

pilgrim - there does not seem to be much room for the Church to discern the matter in your statements.  You have way too much trust in the kinds of things that even Satan can mimic.  Many here have told you that Satan can appear as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14)

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Any attempts over the years to get you to read anything about discernment in general is disregarded.  There is a booklet on discernment of spirits which does not mention Medjugorje, and it is available online.  It is written by a theologian for priests to aid them in discernment of spirits. It is generic and covers general principles in an easy to read form. Of course, your standard line is that you don’t click links.  Yet, you seem not to have any problems clicking links to things which promote Medjugorje. 

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Truly, there is nothing in the link I’m providing below about Medjugorje - pro or con.  It is a short on how priest are to “test the spirits” (1 John 4:1) It is quite interesting. Why not give it a try?  It carries the following Imprimatur at the bottom:

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Imprimatur
Vicariate of Rome, Italy
14 January 1997
Sac. Luigi Moretti
Secretary General

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Discernment of Spirits in the Priestly Ministry

David Mann said: Once you open your soul up to the Traveling Chatterbox Entity of Medjugorje, all manner of kookiness and evasion eventually sets in

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That’s basically what I said in my post: Medjugorje: What mushrooms teach about objectivity

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There appears to be, among devotees of unapproved apparitions, an unreasonable inability to reason.  Irrational things are said.  When Cardinal Bertone experienced it in 2005 and publicly admonished listeners of Radio Maria thus: “Unseemly and offensive reactions of faithful and priests who describe themselves as ‘Medjugorjean’”, the Cardinal censured on Monday: unacceptable attacks “even from Radio Maria, certainly not compatible with the promoters of authentic Marian devotion”.

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If Cardinal Bertone could feel the “love” of Medjugorjeans (the “j” is pronounced like a “y”, btw), then I don’t feel so bad when I’m insulted. Methinks his close friend, Pope Benedict XVI, got a real ear full after that experience.

pilgrim - I wanted to point out that I understand what you are saying about the experience you have when in Medjugorje, with so many people praying the Rosary, so many people in confession lines, at Mass, etc.  I remember all of that, and that is a very good thing.  I personally cut hosts that would be used at Mass at St. James in the tens of thousands and was overjoyed at the thought of so many coming to weeknight Masses. I watched kids passing up the new “disco-tech’s” and cinema’s the government put up trying to lure young people away on their trip to daily Mass.  Also, very good things.  Indeed, these are positive fruits, I would never deny that.

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How then, can Satan be involved if people are coming to the sacraments, praying to Mary?

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Here is the answer: Satan is willing to tolerate these things and even encourage them.  He participates, willingly in this manner, in false apparitions and private revelations because he has an ace up his sleeve.  What is that ace?

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People become so attached to the thing - the private revelation, the alleged apparition, or the persons behind it - that they cannot let go when the Church says, “no”.  They then float into a state of denial, or convince themselves that the Church didn’t really say “no”.  They continue in their devotion to the now condemned phenomena, convinced through their own personal discernment, that the thing is good. Some then begin to succumb to the thought that there is a conspiracy involved among Church authorities and that the CDF or the Pope were duped.  They forget that basic teaching from Scripture and the Catechism when Our Lord said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.

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It’s one of the oldest tricks in the book. Recall how the serpant convinced Eve to personally discern that the forbidden fruit was actually a good thing, even though God said, “no”. 

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Yes, pilgrim, Satan is willing to draw tens of thousands of priests and millions of lay people from around to do holy things. Should a negative judgment come forth from the Holy See, the Angel of Darkness the vast majority of those people will humbly submit to the decision of Holy Mother Church.  But if just 10% reject that decision it is too many.  If even 1% reject that decision, Satan has a significant win.  You know how many devotees of Medjugorje there are around the world, and how many priests have come there.  What is 1% of the worlds devotees?  Is it 10, is it 100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000 people?  I don’t track the numbers.  You tell me how many Satan wins, if just 1% reject a negative judgment from the Church.

Diane:  Exactamente!

It gives me no pleasure to say that the Catholic Church will be short some members when the Ruini Commission gives the neo-Roman thumbs down to this 30-year odyssey of confusion and disobedience.  They will leave.

“Pilgrim” telegraphs this by accidentally showing more colors than he (she?) is aware when he (she?) writes:  “Medjugorjeans, Catholics… what’s the difference.”

Uh, what?  Hello?  Is this thing on?  Houston, we have a problem.

I’m also heartened that Cardinal Bertone personally knows Bishop Peric.  I pray the latter has given all the appropriate curial officials the full truth.

Keep keeping the faith, Diane.

David - a Picture is worth a thousand words…

Happy feast day everyone!

DAVID… I can only repeat: “How can satan cast out satan?” The power is with God, not satan.  Trust him. Take your eyes off satan, look to heaven and the direction our Blessed Mother wants you to. Take her advice. Pray, open yourself to the graces she dispenses, then you will not be overly concerned at giving satan undue respect.

DIANE… your opening sentence is just another false and wild claim tossed into discolour the water. It’s a silly statement. Think about it. Isn’t it just just an excuse for you to post more of your links. It certainly has no substance.

And as for your statement claiming that satan is willing to draw tens of thousands of priests and millions of lay people around the world to do holy things and encourages people to participate in the sacraments and pray to Mary, best read on from the opening response Jesus made to the scribes: “How can satan cast out satan?”

“If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot last. And if a household is divided against itself, that household can never stand. Now if satan has rebelled against himself and is divided, he cannot stand either – it is the end of him. But no one can make his way into a strong man’s house and burgle his property unless he has tied up the strong man first. Only then can he burgle his house. I tell you solemnly, all men’s sins will be forgiven, but let anyone blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and he will never have forgiveness: he is guilty of eternal sin”. This was because they were saying that there is an unclean spirit in him. (Mark 3 : 22-29)

So Diane, you have you answer from the mouth of Jesus, the word of God.

I truly hope that your own discernment process is not completely on the blink and that you didn’t really mean to imply that it is satan who is encouraging pilgrims to confess their sins at Medjugorje and not the Holy spirit; that it is satan who is encouraging receiving the Eucharist at Medjugorje and not the Holy Spirit; that it is satan who is encouraging pilgrims to attend at Medjugorje and not the Holy Spirit; that it is satan who is encouraging pilgrims to pray and not the Holy Spirit, that it is satan who is encouraging people to pray and seek Mary’s intercession.

Peace, and once again, happy feast day.

pilgrim - there is not enough time or space to fisk all that you got twisted.  That includes how you twisted my words and Davids.  I’ve not addressed other things you got all twisted in prior posts. 

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My time is done here.  Others, with time to read, won’t necessarily get such a distorted understanding of what people like myself and David Mann, and others were saying.

Allow me to wish everyone here a blessed Feast of the Immaculate Conception.

Diane, your words are there to see. You clearly state:

<<How then, can Satan be involved if people are coming to the sacraments, praying to Mary? Here is the answer: Satan is willing to tolerate these things and even encourage them.  He participates, willingly in this manner… Yes, pilgrim, Satan is willing to draw tens of thousands of priests and millions of lay people from around to do holy things.>>

pilgrim - I have no choice but to respond since you are taking one sentence I said and quoting it out of context, as you often do with scripture to promote Medjugorje like those who hold to sola scriptura.  You have done that throughout this thread - taking one sentence of what someone says, out of context.

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Let me ask you this…

Now that the apparitions assocaited with Maureen-Sweeney Kyle (Holy Love) have been soundly condemned by Bishop Lennon of Cleveland, what draws Catholics to flock there despite his clear admonition not to after making it clear that nothing supernatural is happening there.  In that case, those “apparitions” have attacked the Church, issuing their own decree against the diocese in the wake of his decree against what goes on at Holy Love Minsitries.  So I ask you, if the Church has made a constat de non supernaturalite against this specific private revelation, what or WHO is drawing people to that location?  It certainly is not Mary, Jesus, or any of the saints Holy Love claims are appearing there because the Church has declared it as such.

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That is not to say that innocent people, who are drawn by wnatever means, or by whomever, to the site of an inauthentic apparition, do not receive graces from the Blessed Virgin Mary who sees what is in their hearts.  But if those same people go to a condemned site like Holy Love, they open themselves up to the diabolical in a very big way. Their attachment was so strong that when the Church said, “no” they could not accept it and have placed personal discernment over discernment of the Church. The excuses are many.

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I hold the belief, which is my right, that the apparitions of Medjugorje are inauthentic.  I stand with the bishop.  Just as you are convinced it will some day see approval, I am convinced it will see the declaration that these visions associated with the seers of Medjugorje are not of supernatural origin. I have stated earlier, that should the Church ever approve them, i will look at all that she presents in terms of facts, but am still not required to believe in them. You, however, cannot remain devoted to such a phenomena, if the Church should judge them not to be of supernatural origin. 

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What I also leave open, is the possiblity that the Church will condemn as not supernatural the visions of Medjugorje seers, while allowing the place of Medjugorje to remain some sort of public retreat (with very strict guidelines and statements about supernaturality lacking).

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Now.  I know you will once again pull one sentence out of what I said and twist my intentions as you have done throughout this thread and others. 

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May God grant you many graces on this Feast of the Immaculate Conception.

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Zbogom!

Diane, we are talking Medjugorje, not Maureen-Sweeney Kyle.

I am happy with the words of Jesus, which are always truth and give light in darkness.

I do not have a problem with your belief that the Medjugorje apparitions are false. You are free to have a personal opinion as is the Mostar bishop – just as I am.

Your own conviction, in the end, may not be in line with the discernment of the Holy See. Likewise mine. But I am prepared to accept the discernment of the Church whereas you hint that you may not because you are allowed to do so.

I am only bound by the Church to confess my sins once a year, but I choose to do so more frequently. I am only bound by the Church to attend Mass on the Sabbath and Holy Days, but I choose to go daily. So you see, it is a matter of choice and sometimes wanting to go beyond the call of duty.

When the Church discerns positively about a Marian apparition, then I accept and take on the belief implied, be it Lourdes, Fatima, Knock or anywhere else. I know I am not bound by the Church to do so, but as Our Lady is the Mother of the Church and the Holy Spirit guides the Church in its discernment then surely I should take on board the Church’s final discernment.

If I believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church in this matter how can it be the same Holy Spirit telling me something different?

You speak much about obedience in your posts, but I look on it more as surrendering to the Spirit that guides the Church, even though I may not fully understand or particularly want to surrender my will in this way. But surrender I will, to whatever final discernment the Holy See makes in regard to the Medjugorje phenomenon.

If the judgment is negative, that will not kill my desire to attend Mass daily, or confess my sins, or to feed on the Word of God. Before I went to Medjugorje I didn’t do any of those things. I wasn’t sure about the phenomenon. In fact I didn’t really want to go there in the first place. But I did go. And I was blessed with the most wonderful gift of God’s love penetrating my heart. I became the man who discovered the pearl. I now fully understood why John referred to himself as “the one whom Jesus loves”. His heart also had been penetrated by the love of God. Nothing else was important.

So I witness to this fact, just as the first disciples went out into the world to speak of God’s merciful love after Pentecost. And that’s what Medjugorje is to me, a perpetual Penetecost. This gift is for everyone if only they are prepared to put aside their reluctance to “come and see”. For those who cannot travel to Medjugore then Medjugorje comes to them through the witness of others.

But we are free to choose because of the unconditional love of God.

And thank you for blessing prayer. I can assure you Diane, our Blessed Mother is full of grace and she dispenses the graces given to her by her Son big-time of her feast days! :)

When we read the posts here, the ones of the non-believers most are judgmental and harsh and phrased in such a way that they are accusatory or self righteous.  The ones of the believers have a gentle and patient tone and are forthright in their responses to questions.  This alone leads me to believe they are closer to the truth.  Pilgrim I would still caution you to wait for Holy Mother Church before coming to any final conclusions. It will do you no harm and obedience is very dear to the Lord.

Thank you Pam, but allow me to point you to the decree given today given by Bishop David Ricken in regard to the approved apparition to Adel Brise.
http://www.gbdioc.org/images/stories/Evangelization_Worship/Shrine/Documents/Shrine-of-Our-Lady-of-Good-Help.pdf

Interestingly, the decree acknowledges the continuous flow of pilgrims to Champion over the past 150 years, and also states that: “Graces have been poured out through the sacraments celebrated in this place especially through the celebration of the Mass and the Sacrament of Reconciliation, as well as through the recitation of public devotions and private prayers.”

The decree also points out, “Many of the local clergy and clergy from other Dioceses and Religious Institutes have come here on pilgrimage with their people, also with spiritual benefit.”

Now why else would people make pilgrimage to this place in Wisconsin if not for the reason that they may have had some belief in the truth of the apparition before the Church had made a final discernment?

So often we here opponents of Medjugorje claim that Medjugorje is off limits for pilgrims, and off limits for priests. We know this not to be the truth, but many opponents still perpetuate this false claim.

What a wonderful gift the U.S. has received today from Our Lady on this special feast day of hers.

@Pilgrim.  I have had mystical experiences as well. Nothing at all on this scale.  I think many devout Catholics have them. I have talked about them to priests.  For many priests today (and maybe it has always been this way) it is easier to believe someone is sick or lying than to believe what they say is true.  In my heart I know what happened, what was going on in my life when it happened, what questions I asked, what state of mind I was in, that Jesus responded to me and helped me understand.  I have no doubt.  If I’m not believed it is a cross I will bear. The good it did won’t be erased.  Nothing that was said contradicted Church teaching.  The good you and many others have experienced won’t be erased no matter what the Church’s decision.  You have found your faith!  I believe you will be vindicated.  God bless.

Pam,
I was going to enter the fray with a different comment, having read through this entire thread in detail now. However, I was nonplussed by your last comment and choose to address it. One can wrap an insult or judgemental words (which is different from exercising sound judgement) in the most pious and spiritual sounding talk. It’s a thinly veiled self-righteousness.
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You must be reading a different thread or the same one with rose coloured glasses. If the latter then you mistake rational thinking, sensible conversation and a preponderance of well presented factual information as “judgement” and further misunderstand the biblical teaching on what it means to not judge one another. We are not to judge the person, make personal attacks of the faults of a person, to insult, so on. All of that is what is most consistently evidenced by the main pro-unapproved-alleged apparition speakers on this thread. What we are to judge, in fact what scripture clearly tells us we are to exercise is sound judgement in regard to, is doctrine, teaching, and what has been variously called above “fruit” of same.
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I cannot imagine anyone being more patient on this thread than Diane chiefly.
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Dave/Diane, principally you but others also have borne insult and insult mixed with what Flannery O’Connor might have called, a lot of pious pap talk with more grace that I could muster.
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As someone said early on in the thread, the chances of convincing anyone of anything they are predisposed to not hear, even for all your good effort, falls largely of deaf ears. Years of being close to people involved with this particular alleged apparition has never made that sad reality more clear.
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As another person above said, if should the Church should clearly come out with a final, definitive statement condemning this alleged apparition false and not worthy of the veneration, affection and attention of the Faithful many of this alleged apparition’s adherents will turn away from Mother Church to follow it and should this happen it will further be that these who make this error will still see themselves as fully Catholic, no doubt more Catholic than the Church. Yet another non-Catholic Christian sect be born.
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This thread is now officially ‘old’

One clarification, for Pam - the comment I was addressing as your final comment above was in reference to “Posted by Pam on Wednesday, Dec 8, 2010 12:36 PM (EDT):” not the ones since that time, made while I was writing my own. However, the subsequent comments only confirm what I was noting.
+ time to unsubscribe

Pam, thank you for sharing your heart as you did in your last post. Heart will always speak to heart. Some can get uncomfortable when this happens. It presents a challenge. But others will relate positively.

To William:  Here are a couple examples from Diane and David. Our guide should be, “See how they Love one another.”  Sarcasm isn’t fruitful. Accusatory language isn’t fruitful. We can do better.  Also, the Holy Spirit is as alive today as He has always been.  Why the put down?

Pilgrim” telegraphs this by accidentally showing more colors than he (she?) is aware when he (she?) writes:  “Medjugorjeans, Catholics… what’s the difference.”

Uh, what?  Hello?  Is this thing on?  Houston, we have a problem.
William: 

2. pilgrim - there is not enough time or space to fisk all that you got twisted.  That includes how you twisted my words and Davids.  I’ve not addressed other things you got all twisted in prior posts.

I have a idea—lighten up!  When people who think like His Excellency Ratko Peric and his courageous predecessor Bishop Zanic toss a piece of popcorn, the zealots cry that they’ve been hit by a brick.  I learned my sarcasm from the Holy Spirit, who inspired St. Paul to lay down some zingers to the Judaizers of Galatia—the Medjugoreans of the first century.

Give me a break.  There are no “put downs” or “accusatory language”—only the repetition of inconvenient facts.  There is, however, no shortage of condescending spiritual advice and the ignoring of simple questions….

The Immaculate Conception herself must be shaking her head to be supplanted by a grotesque fake.  The intense emotion that accompanies the zeal of the Medj. mob is one more sign of its demonic origin.  In my very humble and fallible opinion.

Godspeed to Cardinal Ruini and his Commission.  In the intercessory prayer department, faithful Catholics everywhere have got your back!

Sooo many responses to this.  The founder of the Legionaries of Christ and Regnum Christi being held-up (propped-up) and allowed to be called a living saint for sixty years of active ministry did much too destroy faith in our bishops’ discernment capabilities.

Maggie:  What does Maciel’s double life and the willing enablement of the LC/RC cult have to do with bishops’ discernment, the Bishops of Mostar-Duvno at any rate?  Nothing.

By that logic, the (alleged!) support given by John Paul II over the years to Medjugorje should be seen against his having been badly conned by Maciel and his wealthy backers.  But let me guess: you don’t see it this way.

BTW, the devotees of the Traveling Chatterbox Entity love to brag about the devotion of the late Holy Father to Medjugorje.  The fact that no evidence exists to support this, and lots exists that supports the contrary position, means nothing to the zealots.  Their minds are made up, no point in mentioning facts.

@ maggie:
“Sooo many responses to this. The founder of the Legionaries of Christ and
Regnum Christi being held-up (propped-up) and allowed to be called a living
saint for sixty years of active ministry did much too destroy faith in our
bishops’ discernment capabilities.”

Straw man. Wow I cannot believe that you would think that the one has anything to to do with the other. That priest (and God will judge him and it’s probably a good thing that I have nothing to say about it because it would the worst vision of hell that he could imagine)fooled many, many people including JPII. It’s what con men do.

That does not mean that the bishops have lost the ability to discern fake apparitions.

In fact I would think that would be easier than dealing with a sociopathic, psychopathic, poor excuse for a priest.

What I have never understood about Medj. is that Bishop Zanic, who was the bishop at the time for at least 10 years said it was a fake and that he caught the seers lying to him on more than one occassion.  Why is it okay to go against him?  He is the authority of apparations in his diocese.  The pro-Medj. crowd’s only answer to that was, he was a bad bishop.  That doesn’t fly with me.  Obiedence to the authorities of the Church is crucial as long as it doesn’t go against faith and morals.
It baffles me why so many around the world flock there knowing that.  The devil must be very happy about it.  At one time, one of the seers even
threatened the bishop when she was talking to people.  She stated that the Blessed Mother would punish him for it.  I ask anyone, does that sound like our Blessed Mother? UGH!  I don’t think so.  I think it’s a no brainer when you look at everything.  I don’t care how many masses and confessions are said there.  It has to look good to be believed or no one would go there.  Our Blessed Mother does not babble on and on and repeat herself over and over for 30 years.  Wake up people.

Bonnie, in one of her messages from Medjugorje Our Lady also made a wake-up call to people.

Dear children! Wake up from the sleep of unbelief and sin, because this is a time of grace which God gives you. Use this time and seek the grace of healing of your heart from God, so that you may see God and man with the heart. Pray in a special way for those who have not come to know God’s love, and witness with your life so that they also can come to know God and His immeasurable love. Thank you for having responded to my call. (February 25, 2000)

I’m so glad none of the messages are trite cliches.

@pilgrim - right, but one of the main points being made repeatedly in this discussion, though not headed is that is nothing from the Church to verify the authenticity of any of the messages of the pro-ported and unapproved apparition. It’s a good message but it is good in such a general sense that can just as easily be read as a warning TO Medjugorje ‘faithful’ ABOUT Medjugorje.

@Miriam, it is exactly that in the sense of its completely general and ubiquitous message. There is nothing more here, nor are most of the ‘messages’, than that which has been available to the Faithful for hundreds if not thousands of years from that minds and hands of Popes, saints, priests, theologians and laity. One does not need to follow the alleged apparition to receive and heed such advice.

But you folks keep this up because soon you will be simply talking among yourselves as anyone who tries to make sense here ends up giving up and walking away from this ‘discussion.’

Bonnie, you are correct in saying that Our Lady’s messages bring no new revelation. And you are correct in saying that the Church has not verified the messages. It has no obligation to point to the messages unless they are a danger to the faith and morals of the faithful. If this is the case then the Church is duty bound to warn the faithful. But in 30 years it has not done so. I wonder why?

@ Owen. I hope you realize that I was serious about the message being trite and a cliche.

It is so sad to see intelligent, caring, believing, Catholics being taken in by what will probably be termed a hoax.

@Miriam, I missed that. I’ve just read so much nonsense and even begun to loose track of who is who. Thanks for clarifying.

@pilgrim, it’s not like the Church hasn’t tried to warn the ‘faithful’, it;s not like patient people who are my better here haven’t tried to warn the ‘faithful’ - but you are not listening and again, that’s one of the points.

Wow, enough is enough. I don’t know if David and Diane are still reading, wouldn’t blame them if not but just wanted to say thank you one last time.

I guess the oldest ‘cliché’ in the world is “I love you”. For some this may sound trite; for others it gives life to heart and soul.

Owen… The Church has not put out any decree to warn the faithful about the messages of Medjugorje. If it had then why is there another commission underway studying the Medjugorje phenomenon?

@pilgrim that’s correct that the commission is in place to speak, we pray, definitively at last but there have been many warnings over time, direct and indirect as well as those things which have happened in the lives of the seers and so forth that serve as a warning for those who would be prudent and cautious and many of those have been clearly mentioned above. And now, enough really, really is enough.

Is it done yet? Probably not, I think Pilgrim remains the defense lawyer for Medjugorje until her last typed in word. She should be getting paid for her loyalty—-wait, has anyone been convinced by her arguments? I have not.

Pilgrim has made a strong and rational defense and has stated a case, unlike many here, without being insulting, not an easy task from the looks of this “discussion.” He and other Medj. supporters have been told that they’re “drinking Cool-Aid” and, over and over again, that they are ignorant fanatics who will bolt from the church first chance they’re told we’re wrong. Sorry, David Mann, this is not just “zeal.” The ones who sound most fanatical are those here who are absolutely convinced that Medj. is the devil’s playground and have drawn all their conclusions before Holy Mother Church. Regarding those of you who point to so much “division” among the faithful over the alleged apparitions, it should be pointed out that the argument is less convincing when it comes from the authors of the division (i.e. you can’t put in an appearance in the online discussion boards every time an article appears on Medj., attack Medj. supporters by calling them ignorant, fanatical Kool-Aid drinkers, and then say “See, look at all the controversy—must be from the devil”). Lastly, it’s always interesting to read the explanations for the good fruit from those who are against the authenticity. The more truckloads of good fruit that appear, the more verbal gymnastics that are required to make your argument convincing. God Himself said that “A good tree does not bear rotten fruit, nor does a rotten tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit” (Lk 6:43-44). Since good fruit can not come from a bad tree, you’ve got to amend the words of our Lord if you want to accept that there is good fruit coming from the devil’s playground that is Medjugorje. You would have to correct the saying to something like “Good fruit can in fact come from a bad tree in some cases, such as when there is a giant conspiracy of the devil to convert and revert to the Catholic Church millions of people around the globe, especially when you’re dealing with lots of ignorant Kool-Aid drinkers. But then again, a lot of people here seem to know better than the Church so maybe they feel it’s their prerogative to gently correct the Lord.

Eric Sammons blog used the following scripture to discuss the good fruit/bad fruit regarding Medjugorje.

Matthew 13:24-30:

24Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28” ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29” ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ “

All good comes from the Church. At the end of the day the wheat will be saved and the weeds will burn.

Dear mgseamanjr (do none of you Medj fans have actual names?):

Bishop Zanic used language much more tart and blunt in his negative assessment of Medjugorje titled, aptly enough, “The Truth About Medjugorje,” with only wall-to-wall support from Ven. John Paul II.  The late Holy Father was so angry with Bishp Zanic for his bad bad ways that when Zanic died, the Holy Father put in place the even more ANTI-Medjugorje Bishop Ratko Peric.

Strange, eh?

I know, I know, you buy the propaganda about “the Pope took the matter out of his hands.”  Rubbish.  Bishop Peric had begged the Holy See to get involved, since Kool-aid drinkers (and you are most certainly a Kool-aid drinker in this matter) refused to obey the findings of the Zadar Declaration.

I use Kool-aid drinker on purpose.  The usage stems from the Jim Jones cult.  As in, the spirit of fanaticism.  Now, Jim Jones is exactly the comparison Bishop Zanic made in his Statement—I didn’t make it up.  His Excellency did.  Which is another reason the zealots hated his guts (for the love of the Gospa, natch.)  So if you want to lump me in with the Bishop Zanics of the world, I’m honored.

Your gripe lies with a higher authority than little old me.

BTW, God can bring good fruit from bad trees, no problem—and vice versa. The call of Jesus also included the response of Judas.  Jesus Christ can call a man to the priesthood during a visit to a brothel.  He’s God, guys!  The fake Bayside “apparition” also produced conversions and vocations.  Same with the similarly kooky sham known as Garabandal.  God is so patient and so merciful that He doesn’t want souls to be lost by bogus (possibly diabolically originated), and so He brings people to Himself.

This is not complicated.

I fear William is exactly right in his pondering the possibility of The True Church of Medjugorje [tm].

DAVID, the fact is that Cardinal Ratzinger DID remove the the matter of Medjugorje from the hands of the local bishop. It’s not propaganda. The Holy See then directed the Yugoslav bishop’s Conference to give study to the Medjugorje phenonomonen. It wasn’t the local bishop who made this decision. And the Zadar announcement followed, a declaration that the Holy See still refers to.

When the Yugoslav Bishop’s Conference ceased to exist, and time had passed to allow further study, Rome then invited the newly-formed Bishop’s Conference of Bosnia & Herzegovina to give study to the Medjugorje phenomenon with a particular emphasis to the question of shrine status regarding Medjugorje. This direction had the local bishop telling all from the pulpit at St James church in Medjugorje that Medjugorje was not a shrine (just two weeks before the news of the commission was made public). Two years on, cardinal Puljic, head of the BiH bishop’s conference returned the commission back to the Holy See. No work had been completed. Hence the new commission set up by Pope Benedict some months ago.

I maintain that the purpose of this commission is to protect the tree that is producing good fruit and that this will be done by confirming shrine status for Medjugorje.

There are three levels of shrine status, local, national, and international, all independent of each other. The local bishop has the opportunity to grant shrine status at local level without interference from the national bishop’s conference or the Holy See, as witnessed by the announcement made yesterday relating to the Greenbay shrine in the U.S.

Following the Zadar declaration made by the bishops conference of Yugoslavia, In August 1993 cardinal Kuharic head of the YBC stated: “We bishops, after a three-year-long commission study, accept Medjugorje as a holy place, as a shrine.” So now we have Medjugorje being acknowleged as a shrine at national level. However, when the YBC ceased to exist, there was a legitimate question posed about national shrine status. The nation of Yugoslavia and its bishops’ conference no longer existed. And so, in its wisdom and correctness the Holy See afforded the BiH bishops’ conference to give study to the question of shrines status at national level. As I said, after two year the commission was returned to the Holy See by the BiH BC.

So now the question of shrine status reached a new plateau, international level. The local bishop doesn’t want status at local level. the bishops at national level did nothing and in doing so has allowed the Holy See to reach its own conclusion on shrine status. And if it is positive then Medjugorje will be given international shrine status. This doesn’t mean that the claimed apparitions will be approved. That will be left to time. But the tree producing good fruit will be protected. There is a facility available in canon law for the Holy See to actually take over the shrine itself and appoint its own guardian, therefore removing it from the jurisdiction of the local bishop.

Miriam, the parable of the darnel follows on from the parable of the sower. After that comes the parable of the mustard seed and the parable of the yeast. These are all examples given by Jesus of faith and how it grows or doesn’t grow.

And what can often be perceived as darnel, may in actual fact turn out to be wheat when allowed to grow. The two plants are very similar in appearance.

The seed planted at Medjugorje has produced a rich harvest over 29 years and continues to do so. But faith has to be maintained and it is our Blessed Mother, through her persistent messages, that teaches us and the Church the ways to grow in faith, hope and love, ways that many of us had abandoned or forgotten and then wondered why we had had no peace in our heart or could not love in the way Jesus commanded.

When the supposed “apparition of Mary”  told the seers that it did not matter which religion you belonged to, that it is all the same to the Lord—then I was assured Medji was a hoax. Yes, I used to read the dribble from the “seers”. It was dull watered done mumblings to me. MAINLY—never would the Mother of GOd declare that it did not matter what religion one is, because no other “religion” can be put on the same level as Christ’s, one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

You know PATT, I can’t remember ever reading anywhere that Jesus was baptised into the Catholic Church. I know he received baptism at the hands of John, and before that was presented by Mary and Joseph in the Temple. He was born into the Jewish faith. His mother was a Jew. Yet she is the Mother of God. Fancy that, a member of the Jewish faith being the Mother of God. And yet she is also the mother of the Church, the Body of Christ. Now does the Body of Christ extend beyond fully paid up members of the Catholic Church; the Body of Christ put to death and who died for the sins of ALL mankind? Is not a mother a mother to all her children?

Like I said, “Pilgrim”, you’re a game player.  On March 8, you put other words in Cardinal Puljic’s mouth.  Here are your words, especially the last paragraph about the shrine question:

Posted by pilgrim on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 11:56 AM (EDT):

“Cardinal Puljic gave clear indications in November 2009 in his interview with the Catholic media agency Zenit. He stated that what is happening at Medjugorje is the responsibility of the CDF and the bishop of Mostar Msgr Ratko Peric.

The cardinal also made reference to the tradition in his country of praying at shrines and that it was part of the identity of the Catholic faithful.

Now the cardinal did not say that Medjugorje WAS a shrine but he voluntary raised the subject of shrine. Bishop Peric is adamant that Medjugorje is not a shrine.”

You’re talking about of both sides of your mouth.  The verdict of Bishop Peric—that the Traveling Chatterbox locale is not a shrine—is the canonically valid status of Medjugorje, as Cardinal Bertone has repeated.  How odd that Ven. John Paul II visited Bosnia-Hercegovina in April of 1997, a hop, skip and jump from Medjugorje.  He skipped it, and never mentioned it, not once.  Then in 2003 he visited Croatia and paid a pilgrimage stop to Marija Bistrica—a much lesser known but yet a REAL Catholic Shrine.  (Bizarre reply to this fact by the zealots = “he would have gone, but he’s the pope so he couldn’t”!)

If I was a Medj zealot, I’d be kinda miffed that the Pope didn’t say a peep about the place he called “the spiritual heart of the world.”

Clue # 3,526,282:  John Paul II never said it.  (I admit, it is golden sounding propaganda.)

The actual, binding, and easy-to-understand protocols regarding Medjugorje are found here: www.cbismo.com in black and white.

You Medj Heads are big on faux obedience.  Try the real thing.  You’ve got everything to gain.

On that, I’m over and very out.  Interactions with Catholic-er Than Thou Medjugoreans gives me a headache.  Readers of this com box will decide for themselves where the truth lies.

David, I’m familiar with the text you quote of cardinal Puljic. In fact I used it on my blog at the time.

So I know that the cardinal also offered other opinions which for some reason you failed to mention.

He also had this to say: ““We look forward to suggestions and proposals on how to accompany this phenomenon, and I think the Holy See wants us to work in this area.”

The cardinal also said that he expected that the Holy See will give indications on Confession and Eucharistic celebrations, and then added “and maybe even set up a Committee to follow the phenomenon by recording contents of the apparitions and messages, in view that there are over 30,000.”

The cardinal also recognised that Medjugorje continues to attract thousands of pilgrims and acknowledged that the fruit of prayer has resulted in many conversions and vocations to the priesthood and religious. “Praying is not a sin,” he said “Where a man prays with faith, God gives the rewards of his grace.”

• Of course JPII didn’t visit Medjugorje. His visit to BIH was not with that intention. If it had, it would have been declared when the itinerary of his visit was published.  However he did send envoys to the village for a few hours. :)

The cardinal’s comments (pro or con) are…get ready for it…absolutely irrelevant.  Too much pitiful straw grabbing, Miss Pilgrim.  This is my last post.  Good luck with all that.

BTW, David, I sorry to read of your headache. I sympathise. Some of the stuff that is posted on Medjugorje does my head in as well. :)

Peace.

David… I can’t work out if you are attempting to be respectful when you address me as “Miss”  Wanna take a guess at my age? :)

Pilgrim, there is no other church or religion to compare with the Roman Catholic Faith and its Seven Sacraments.
So no—your feeble argument does not hold water. Our Lady is not going to dismiss the true Faith as not important to salvation. Now you can go on being the legal defense for Medj, but I am convinced beyond a doubt that is is the work of Mr. Scratch. You keep it—-I’m done here.

Wasn’t Fatima also not accepted quickly by it’s Bishops? There seems to be a time of testing. I have no real opinion on Medjugorje and would submit to the Church’s authority on the matter, but it seems many such situations have opposition initially from the Church, but stand the test of time and eventually are accepted. Most “Miracles” go through a process where certain Church authorities have the job of trying to disprove them because the thought is if they are from God, they both have good fruit and stand the attempts to disprove them.

This, too,is my last word on this Medjugorje marathon debate.  I am shocked to hear there are over 30,000 Apparitions and messages to be scrutinized!!!!!.  Why, Oh why in the name of Jesus, Mary and Joseph can’t these Medjugorje devotees show some humility and patience,and obedience to the Authority of the Catholic Church, the same way the Devotees of the Eucharistic Apostolate of Divine Mercy waited for 20 years until the turmoil caused by the WWII ended and the Holy See then received ALL THE COMPLETE WRITINGS OF ST. FUSTINA’S DIARY, HER CONFESSORS AND SPIRITUAL DIRECTOR AND THE INTERVIEWS FROM ALL THOSE WHO KNEW ST. MARIA FUSTINA AND - ONLY THEN - DID THE HOLY SEE DECREE CHRIST’S AND OUR LADY’S MESSAGES TO ST. FAUSTINA AND THE VERACITY OF THE DIVINE MERCY IMAGE WERE AUTHENTIC WAS PRONOUNCED AND OPENED THE DEVOTION FOR THE ENTIRE CATHOLIC CHURCH. THIS WHOLE PROCESS LED TO THE INSTITUTION OF THE FEAST OF THE DIVINE MERCY SUNDAY FOR THE ENTIRE CATHOLIC CHURCH?  What are these Devotees of Medjugorje afraid of and continue to distort statements of the various Church Authorities through the Bishops of the Church? I end by once again, stating to them that the way they have conducted themselves thus far in this whole threat is contrary to the Teachings of Our Lady and her Mission on earth, it is contrary the Message of Christ Himself and most emphatically, it is contrary to the Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Their intolerant attitude is contrary to the Total Humility of Our Lady and her Son because GOD NEVER CONTRADICTS HIMSELF. Where the Holy Spirit is at work, there is no contention, no confusion, no intolerance and rudeness, no disobedience and no calumny to the Anointed Leaders of the Church who advice caution and patience.  Those traits are found elsewhere and when they arise among Christ’s Faithful, it certainly shows the Antichrist is at work in a frantic effort to scatter Christ’s sheep and tear His Mystical Body asunder

MARY42… regrettably, each day we all face the temptations of satan, whether we believe in the apparitions or not. stan is no respecter of boundaries. He does not confine his activities to tempting those who believe in theMedjugorje phenomenon. But I’s sure that as our Blessed Mother has said in the past, “My Immaculate Heart will triumph”. Allow me to ell you a short and true story:

In the very early days of the phenomenon, the first weeks or so, the parish priest of Medjugorje was lamenting that the local people would make their way to Podbrdo (which later became known as the Hill of Apparitions) in preference to coming into the Church to pray. The “devil” at the time was the communist regime who had placed restrictions on Church practices and discouraged the people from going to Church by threats of all sorts. The communists did not want to see a unified people held together by their faith.

So the people would rush to the hills each day at the time of the apparition, much to the disappointment of Fr Jozo. Then one day something very different happened. The people arrived at the hill to discover that armed soldiers, some with dogs, were posted around the entrances to prevent anyone gathering The communist regime had become concerned at the large numbers and did not want the world to witness this. So they ordered the people to go to St James Church instead. Never had it be known for a communist regime to force the people to go to church!

And from that time, 29 years ago,  an evening prayer programme was started: Rosary, Holy Mass, Adoration, Veneration of the Cross, which still continues to this day. The number of pilgrims has grown dramatically over the years so that in the summer months the prayer programme is conducted on an outside altar. The priest who instigated the building of the altar was dismissed from Medjugorje by the local bishop because he did not approve. Thank God, bishop Peric is more relaxed about meeting the needs of the pilgrims.

So we see from this story that far from being scattered, the sheep were brought back to the Church. And this is still the same today. Stray and lost sheep are reunited with the Catholic Church and the sacraments and the Church is strengthened by this and not weakened.

So Mary42, you are mistaken if you think the Church is being torn apart. It’s not. But there is a problem with some members of the Church who seem reluctant to open the door to those who have been reconciled with God and the Church through Medjugorje.

MARY42… you may or not know of Cardinal Schönborn’s close association with the Divine Mercy movement in the Church. He gives catechesis on Divine Mercy. In fact, his first talk to the people at Medjugorje when he visited there last December was on Divine Mercy.

He also stated at the time: “When you look at a place like Medjugorje, you can see a superpower of mercy. Many merciful deeds were born here or they were supported here.” December 30, 2010.

When visiting Medjugorje many pilgrims make a hazardous drive to the village of Surmanci to visit the Church of the Merciful Jesus. The Church is supported by parishioners of Medjugorje.

But here’s the rub, the church was built and paid for by a group of Italian pilgrims that visit Medjugorje. They even donated the wonderful Divine Mercy icon associated with a miracle healing that was accepted by the Church as one of the proofs for the beatification of Sr Faustina. It is indeed a beautiful icon.

The career Medjugorje haters - who will criticize anyone or anything reflecting positively about Medjugorje (e.g. Cardinal Shonborn, Cardinal Von Balthasaar, Fr. Laurentin, the Holy Father Pope John Paul II, Mother Angelica, Mother Theresa, or any one of the millions of pilgrims like Karen Johnson who attest to healings, conversions and vocations there) remind me of the Sarah Palin haters - in their desperation to find fault with anything the woman does, says or touches! 

The pathological need to detract, defile and destroy something positive is a form of mental illness. The division between the secular clergy and the Franciscans in the region is very real - but it predates the apparitions and therefore cannot be attributed to the apparitions themselves. The fact that Diane at Te Deum has chosen to publicize on this post a list of every Franciscan in the region with suspended faculties is a vile act.  If she wished to, she could publicize as long a list of the clergy in her own diocese or region with suspended faculties or allegations of misconduct.  To attribute to the apparition responsibility for every instance of clergy misconduct or diocesean strife or regional unrest is irrational and dishonest.

Unfortunately, when it comes to these discussions of mystical experiences or apparitions or Medjugorje, Diane is a self appointed expert.  Her zeal is unabated, the volume of her propaganda is a mile wide and an inch deep.  The prudent course would seem to be to allow the faithful to continue to make private pilgrimmages to Medjugorje - because the Church allows this - and to wait for the International Commission to do its work of discernment and give its judgment. If reports are correct - we will not have long to wait..

Mary, I just have to jump back once more because I got (my last) email prompt.

Disobedience is the vile act in the equation, not telling people about said disobedience.  Except for defending apostate sexual miscreants and spirit-trafficking gurus like former Franciscan priest Tomislav Vlasic (got a nun pregnant) or ex-Father Vego (got a nun pregnant), the Traveling Chatterbox Entity hasn’t seen fit to mention innumerable invalid Confirmations that were performed only steps from the “apparition site.”  Need I include the a divinis suspension of Father Jozo Zovko?  The Chatterbox has defended ALL of these disobedient Svengalis against the local bishop.

Yes, Cardinal Schonborn stepped in it over Medjugorje.  He has also said some kooky things about gay relationships and has gotten behind some oddly leftist programs in the last few years.  Sad, from the one of the brains who put the CCC together.  Yes, Father von Bathasar was indeed a Medjugorean.  He also saw no problem with hoping all men be saved. Yes, Mother Angelica rode the Medj train for a while, which is why cooler heads have prevailed at EWTN and have edited and scrubbed out Mother’s publically stated endorsements of this enormous fraud (she also chased other bogus apparitions, but that’s another topic.) The point is, who cares about these opinions?  They’re irrelevant.  (Father Laurentin is the chief Kool-Aid dispenser in the story, sadly, so its’ funny to see him cited as a trustworthy authority.)

You owe Diane an apology, madam.  This is the spirit of the Queen of Peace? 

One of the persistent lies of the Medjugorean spin machine is the lie that John Paul II was this great (secret?) admirer of the Traveling Chatterbox Entity.  All that’s lacking is—proof.  Same with Bl. Mother Teresa—no documented evidence of her devotion to “the Gospa.”  But both of these holy Christian leaders are dead, and neither is the authority on Medjugorje anyway.  The authorities who ARE in charge has said for 30 years there is no evidence of supernatural origins.

The haters are the ones who breathlessly insist to all who will listen (and those who aren’t interested anymore) that faithful Catholics who doubt the validity of Medjugorje must renounce their heresy and “open up to Our Lady’s plan,” and get excited about the 30-year stream sappy, Hallmark cliche “messages” churned out by the Chatterbox Entity—going on 40,000 saccharine slices of shallowness.  These embarrassingly bland platitudes resemble the messages of Lourdes or Fatima in the same way that Eminem’s singing resembles Pavarotti’s.  Good grief.

The silliness of your Palin-hater analogy speaks for itself.

I’m switching the post reply reminder off and am bowing out altogether—so feel free to have the last word as I know you need to do.

Little children, thank you for answering my call.

David, don’t you know that all wars starts in the heart?
*
That’s why Our Lady at Medjugorje constantly urges us to seek peace in our hearts and shows us how this can be achieved with the teaching in her messages. Have you considered that this just might be the reason why so many take on board the Medjugorje phenomenon – because of the peace and love experienced?
*
What’s the point in staying with the Medjugorje phenomeon if produces nothing, if it does not fulfil the expectations and desire for peace that all of us seek? God wants us to be at peace. Jesus says, “Peace I leave you; my own peace I give you.” (John 14 : 27).
*
Has your opposition to the Medjugorje phenomenon brought peace to your heart? It doesn’t appear to be so by the tone of your last post.
*
Some wisdom I was once given by one of the Medjugorje Franciscans was that if I had a problem with someone then I should look inside myself first and foremost, because most likely the answer to the problem was within myself. The change had to come within, not without. Now I don‘t always remember to take that advice on board myself but I share it because I know it to be good and true.
*
Everday we have an opportunity to declare war in our heart. We can question and challenge in an angry manner, we can skirmish with opinions, we can shout and scream, threaten and even come to blows. But all of this begins in the heart. And that suits only one person, the one who seeks to destroy peace in the world and in the hearts of mankind.
*
In one of her messages from Medjugorje, Our Lady had this to say:
“Dear children! Today like never I call you to pray for peace, for peace in your hearts, peace in your families and peace in the whole world, because Satan wants war, wants lack of peace, wants to destroy all which is good. Therefore, dear children, pray, pray, pray. Thank you for having responded to my call. ”  March 25, 1993
*
This isn’t make believe, this is reality, the truth of what is happening. There is nothing sappy about these words. It’s a mother who is showing concern for her children and wants them to take heed of what she is saying. Some choose to listen. But some dismiss her loving words as irrelevant, yet still struggle to cope with the war going on in their heart.
*
So when some make a decision not to listen, then the Blessed Mother, like any mother would, repeats her warning and reminds us of what we must do to avoid conflict.
*
Dear children! Also today I call you to prayer, especially today when Satan wants war and hatred. I call you anew, little children: pray and fast that God may give you peace. Witness peace to every heart and be carriers of peace in this world without peace. I am with you and intercede before God for each of you. And you do not be afraid because the one who prays is not afraid of evil and has no hatred in the heart. Thank you for having responded to my call. September 25, 2001
*
DAVID, I sincerely hope your heart will bear tolerance to those who choose to support the Medjugorje phenomenon. It will bring you much peace if you take this path, or even a path of compassion rather than anger.

Peace

” Has your opposition to the Medjugorje phenomenon brought peace to your heart? It doesn’t appear to be so by the tone of your last post. “

pilgrim, amazing how sanctimonious you sound. I pray that the Church quickly puts an end to these trite little messages from those “seers”. I wonder what they say in confession. I wonder if they tell the truth in that little booth.

And when they die will they have to pay a price for causing dissension and pain in the Church? Will Christ say to them, you have caused my children to sin?

Yep, Miriam, I’m still a sinner but the accusations of others do nothing to disturb my peace. Thank God. Peace.

David Mann wrote: “These embarrassingly bland platitudes resemble the messages of Lourdes or Fatima in the same way that Eminem’s singing resembles Pavarotti’s.  Good grief.”

Those “embarrassingly bland platitudes” are as follows (cf. http://www.medjugorje.org/ol5step.htm):

The message of Medjugorje is a call to Conversion, conversion back to God. Our Lady gives us five Stones or Weapons, which we can use to overcome the power and influence of evil and sin in our lives:

Prayer, Fasting, Reading the Bible, Confession, Eucharist

Personally, I do not experience these messages as plain or trite.  The only thing “embarrassing” about them is my inability to live up to them.  However, I accept the prophetic moment is such that I need to be reminded on a daily basis (yes, every day since 1981) that my response is urgent.  And, the mere fact of Our Lady’s presence with us is a grace and a help. And her words are a simple repetition of the basic Gospel message, “Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” A simple message, perhaps, but the efficacy of Our Lady’s words are seen in the number of pilgrims, the volume of sacraments and the quality of vocations and testimonies.

Can anyone tell me of one single message where the BVM told the seers that people should convert to the Catholic faith?  I’ve read mnay messages that she said to pray, pray, pray and convert to God but have never read one about converting the the Catholic Church, the one Church her son, our Lord Jesus founded.  One of the messages early on was that all religions were the same in the eyes of God. That message was one of the first red flags for me when I believed in them in the 80’s.  There were other red flags but this one was profound and it took me a while to see it clearly at the time because I wanted so much to believe in it.
I have a deep devotion to our Heavenly Mother and say a rosary every day but according to those messages, I can never do enough.  The recommended three hours a day of formal prayers is heroic for a monk, let alone a working man or woman with a family.  It seems to me that one would never
feel God approves of them and get quite discouraged if they can’t do what the BVM asks of the faithful.  Our beautiful Catholic Church has never put unrealistic demands on the faithful like that.  She doesn’t make it impossible to live up to the teachings of the Church.  We have so much to thank God for in this gift of our Catholic faith.  I’m just an ordinary
woman and not highly educated like many of you but God in his mercy makes it possible for any one of us to be a good Catholic.  I always know I’m safe in the arms of the Catholic Church and with our Blessed Mother watching over me and my family and friends. I would never disobey a bishop that has told people not to go to Medj.  My faith tells me that would be a sin.  God put him there to guide the faithful.  Seems like millions have ignored his statements and let those seers guide them instead.  How sad!

Bonnie,

As I mentioned above, two of the five “stones” or central messages of Medjugorje is Confession and Eucharist, so clearly the sacramental life of the Catholic Church is key to a full response to our Lady’s call.  Furthermore, listen closely to what Our Lady said about religions (and don’t rely on slander or hearsay):

“All religions are not equal. All men are equal before God. It does not suffice to belong to the Catholic Church to be saved. It is necessary to respect and obey the commandants of God in following one’s conscience. Those who are not Catholics are no less creatures made in the image of God and destined ultimately to live in the house of God. Salvation is available to everyone without exception. Only those who refuse God deliberately are condemned by their own choice.”

Lastly, the Bishop has not told people not to go to Medjugorje.  The current status for pilgrims was stated by Archbishop Bertone in 1996 on behalf of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

“Finally, as regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentification of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church.”

Thanks for your answer but I am not relying on slander.  The words have been changed since the messages were first published.  You are right in what you say but that was not the original message from the pro Medj. book I read in the 80’s.  The statement was that all religions are the same in the eyes of God.  It has been changed because of the complaints.
The last debate I had on this, they said it was a mistake in translation.
Well, there must have been a lot of those because it got to be rediculous.
I remember it well because I was so taken back by the message.  The way you put it sounds very nice and very true but that’s not what the original message was.  Go back to the early books from the mid 80’s and you’ll see what I mean.  I remember being so disappointed in their description of heaven (another red flag).  They said everything was gray, pink, and yellow, or something like that.  It really upset me at the time
since the way they talked about it, it didn’t make you anxious to go there.  Those seers are nutty.  One of them, the boy, told people you should take at least ten minutes to say the Our Father.  Like I said, they put unreasonable demands on people in their prayer life.  I think it’s the devil’s way in discouraging people or making them turn away from the Catholic Church because they can never live up to it.  The pro-Medj. crowd keeps changing the answers from the beginning messages.  I was paying close attention back then and remember it well.

Bonnie—I totally agree with you. I got the same vibes—and your comment reminded me of them.

Pilgrim, your posting on Thursday said you don’t remember Christ being baptized in the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church has Her roots in the Jewish faith and Christ came to establish the Catholic Church from that into what it is today.  He is the founder and as you may know the offical name “Roman Catholic Church” did not come about for a few hundred years.  The fullness of truth is found in tradition and scripture.  Everyone has a chance of salvation no matter where or what religion they belong to but the fullness of truth in found only in the Catholic Church.
People who through no fault of there own, that are not Catholic, can be saved but the best chance at salvation is through Jesus and the Church he died and rose from the dead for with all the sacrenents He offers.  I just think it harder to be saved outside the Church.  I’m 64 years old and believe me, without the sacrament of confession, I would not sleep good at night.  That’s a lot of years to never have comitted mortal sin.  Thank God for those sacraments. 
The Medj. messages were controlled by those Franciscans priest’s who controlled the seers.  Naturally they had to make it look Catholic in order the sell it to the faithful.  If I would have read just a few messages where the BVM said to convert to the Catholic Chuch instead of just convert to God, then I would be hard pressed to disclaim it.  Obiedence to the bishop is too important to ignore.  Christ put him there at that time.  Being a bishop in good standing with the Church is the key.  Nothing else much matters outside of that fact.  They tried to ruin that poor man’s (bishop Zanic)reputation.  He was devoted to the BVM and visited Church approved apparation sites.  I think it’s crime against the Church to slander him the way they did.  The BVM would never talk about one of her son’s of the Church like those seers said she did.  Don’t you think after all those years she would have shown the bishop a sign that it was really Her.  That has never happened like it did with other apparations that had Church approval.  Never has an apparation that the Church judged to be worthy of belief, has been reversed nor one that has been judged a fraud has changed to worthy of belief.  I know we’re still waiting for that pronouncement.  The Church can not approve it if it’s still going on so what do people do with that choice?  It probably won’t happen in our life time.  However, they can judge it to be a fraud any time.

BONNIE…  “Rebuild my Church” said Jesus to St Francis.

As to “converting to God”, you may wish to check out what the CCC has to say about the process of conversion.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm#III

And just because the bishop chooses to publish his personal views on the Mostar diocese website doesn’t always mean that his view or opinion is correct. The bishop is not infallible on matters Medjugorje. There are other sources that rebut most of his arguments and give more light to the truth of the Medjugorje phenomenon.

I can’t speak for Our Lady. But you expect her to come out with words and confirmations to suit your own understanding yet can’t accept the messages she is supposed to be giving anyway. Where’s the logic in that?

Dear Pilgrim, there’s is no convincing you on this.  The bishop is the authority of an apparation in his diocese.  I know he had to ask for help because of the popularity of it.  You still didn’t answer my question as to why the BVM did not convince the bishop after all those years.  You can’t ignore that.  Why would she want the Church split like this?  I know the bishop is not infallible but his declaration is most important.  He is the one who caught the seers lying to him.  Her answer to lying to the bishop was something like “my answer did not correspond to the truth”.
A nice way to say I lied and trying to soften it a lot.  There were more lies and they were caught red handed.  I can’t even remember her name or what the lies was about.  It was serious enough for Bishop Zanic to believe it was not our BVM visiting there.  I love our Bless Mother too much to see this happen in her name.  You will never convince me and I will never convince you.  This split in the Church is not Her way.  She would have shown the powers that be that it was really her.  If you’ve read even a tenth of those messages, you would see how much she repeats herself.  Do you really think she would do that?  Like I said, she isn’t one to babble and repeat herself over and over.  She says only what needs to be said and what God wills her to say.  This is a disgrace to treat her this way by those seers and those Franciscans.  Shame on them and all the people unwilling to obey the guidence of the bishop.  The Church in her mercy and care for all those who still believe in it is tending to the flock as best they can.  Listen, I’ve heard it all.  My brother and his wife made 15 to 20 trips over there.  My sister-in-law began having her own visitations there and here in the states.  I can’t begin to tell you the nutty things that went on and they are paying a big price for it now.  She’s had to be put in a phych ward a couple tmes lately and they are destitute financially because of some bad decision made with their money from advise from false apparations.  You only see the good fruit and ignore the bad ones.  There has been plenty of bad ones, too many to count. Enjoy your Medj., I will stick with the Church and Her doctrines.
I wish you well and hope the Church ends this on going problem that never seems to end.  Your’s in Christ, Bonnie

Bonnie, Dianne and everyone else that has contributed to this topic, I want to take this opportunity to offer my sincere apologies for anything that I have said that may have offended or hurt anyone that has posted to this discussion. In my weakness I allowed myself to speak unjustly against others, brothers and sisters in Christ. It was nobody’s fault but my own, and for this I am truly sorry. In the words of St James, “Who am I to give a verdict on my neighbour?” I have done this and now wait for the Lord to lift me up again. Pray for me. Peace.

God bless you Bonnie. I am sorry that your family members were mislead and may God assist them. My late sister went over there a couple of times also. She gave me books on it—all fluff, and although we differed on it we never argued. May the Holy Spirit guide us all in making the correct decisions.

I’m copying this from the other thread where pilgrim also made a similar post at 4:08 (EDT):
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@ “pilgrim”....I know you may find this hard to believe, but I do not take personally things that are said in these discussions.  Be at peace.  In time, hopefully soon, Holy Mother Church will offer much needed clarification that will put everyone at ease. Pope Benedict XVI has way of bringing parties together and I am convinced he will also do this with the question of Medjugorje when he answers it.

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Perhaps at some point in the future, we can all spend some time discussing relatively unknown documents on the Blessed Virgin Mary.  As you are probably aware, Vatican II has been heavily distorted by dissenters who have never read any the documents of that Council.  In Lumen Gentium, for example, there exists a whole section on Mary (see section CHAPTER VIII THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, MOTHER OF GOD IN THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST AND THE CHURCH). 

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There are also the vast writings about Mary by the saints, like those of St. Louis de Montfort, whose preparation: Total Consecration to Jesus through Mary, we likely all have used, but few know about.

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And then, there are the writings of the Church Fathers on Mary as captured in this book: Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought

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These are examples of ordinary means to inform ourselves, and others, about the Blessed Virgin Mary.  Apparitions, are extraordinary.  These, once approved, are very good and helpful, but remain extraordinary to what we have through Sacred Scripture, magisterial teachings, and writings of the saints, fathers, and doctors of the Church.

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Keep your head up pilgrim - your heart is in the right place:  The Blessed Virgin Mary is real and she brings those devoted to her graces that will help us to bring others to Christ.

And, pilgrim - I do hope you will continue to pray for all of us, as I know you probably have been all along, as I have been praying for you.

Pilgrim, no need to apologize. You were not offensive at all, just stating your case.  Like Diane said, keep your chin up and you have nothing to feel guilty about at least where I am concerned.  I’ve enjoyed our debate.  God bless you, please be at peace.

For those of you who are interested in reading what Bishop Zanic had to say about Medj., you can go to the website “newjewusalem.com”.  He published a letter in 1990 concerning the BVM’s apparations there.  It’s very enlightening.

http://newjerusalem.com/

Jerusalem was misspelled in ;your post.

I went to the site and the page is not found.

Not Found

The requested URL /bishops-truth.htm was not found on this server.

OOPs!!! Sorry about that misspelling.  It’s “newjerusalem.com”

You can also read, “The Truth about Medjugorje” by Bishop Zanic on the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno website.  Here is the page which collects all homilies and docs translated into English:

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http://cbismo.com/index.php?menuID=98

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I also have a site which takes a critical look at Medjugorje (some of the videos and links to postings with old videos are interesting):

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http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com

Just to keep the balance… :)

• A priest from England visiting Medjugorje told the congregation at the english-speaking Mass to believe in prayer. “Pray, pray, pray… because God hears our prayers.

He told how his conversion came about thanks to the prayers of his parishioners. When they got tired of him because he never said the Rosary and clearly hadn’t any devotion to Our Lady, they started praying for him.

“Seventy of them loaded me onto a plane for Medjugorje, as I screamed and kicked” said the priest jovially, “while another 200 of them continued to pray from home.

“Well, the parishioners got what they had hoped for because on that first trip of mine to this blessed land, I converted.

“May your prayer be sincere, detached, hopeful and trustful, and always open to God’s will” he concluded, “but do pray with perseverance and great trust.”

Here’s wonderful account of a healing received at Medjugorje… :)

http://crownofstars.blogspot.com/2010/09/gerrys-healings-in-medjugorje.html

Here’a another, short and sweet:
“I’m an 87-year-old pensioner who went to Medjugorje in June 1989 when I was 66. It changed my life.” (John Astbury, Penkridge)

This is interesting… :)

The Franciscan Provincial Fr Ivan Sesar celebrated the international Mass in Medjugorje this evening (Sunday AUgust 1, 2010), joined by 340 concelebrating priests! Fr Ivan, a canon lawyer, is a former parish priest of Medjugorje.

Anyone interested in ANgela’ confession? :)
http://crownofstars.blogspot.com/2010/07/angelas-confession.html

That’s it for now, more later, God willing.

MEDJUGORJE… A COURT OF MERCY

“Let us speak about the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Sr Faustina calls Confession ‘the Court of Mercy’. What is it about this Sacrament in our lives as priests and bishops and also in our pastoral work? How can we not pose this question to ourselves here in Ars? In our countries of Europe, with some exceptions, I have the impression that the practice of this Sacrament has enormously regressed and in certain areas almost disappeared.

“There are certainly strongholds of Confession today. I think particularly of Medjugorje. I dare speak of that because for 28 years it has become one of the greatest strongholds of Confession. Thousands and thousands of people go to Confession!

“Certainly our places of pilgrimage are strongholds for Confession. This is my experience, and that of many of my brother priests who exercised the ministry of Confession in places of pilgrimage. But especially in Medjugorje, they were overwhelmed by the experience of Confession.”

• Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, Ars, France, September 29, 2009

Pilgrim,  Can’t see what you said that requires an apology.  ARe you changing your position on the apparitions?  The Church hasn’t.

Pam, I haven’t changed my belief in the Medjugore phenomenon. :)

obstinate in false belief..

Medjugorje and the song of its sirens

What has been written and how it has been expressed in the present thread and in a second one [<a >] is so illustrative of the Medjugorje controversy that it inspires me to write a post in the near future on my own blog on that “projective exemplar”.

Thanks to Jimmy Akin who, with his “What do you think?” about Benedict XVI’s evaluation of mystical phenomena and its implication for the Medjugorje case, has stirred up a range of interesting reactions, some questions arose in my mind that I would like to
submit here and on the other thread [<a >].

The first question has to do with the credibility of anonymous commentators. As an “old-fashioned” researcher, it has never crossed my mind to sign my writings with a fictitious name: they would have never been published! The ethics of identification is still respected in the scientific community. It does not seem to be the case with the current electronic commenting in the blogs. I deplore that lack of transparency. How can you trust someone who hides behind a mask? Particularly Medjugorje is all about trust: trust in the “Lady of Medjugorje”, trust in the pastoral personnel, trust in the “seers”, in short, trust in the “messengers” of all sorts pretending to have direct contact with the Virgin Mary who is the origin of a mystical experience.
A practical example? “Pilgrim” who writes: “I choose the name “pilgrim” because I recognise myself as a “pilgrim” in this life… It is not sinful to do this, just a recognition of my status in life and proclaiming it rather than proclaiming my own name.” That is his justification to Patrick Coffin.
Fortunately for those who cherish transparency, “pilgrim” has “betrayed” himself in the letter he quotes on the other thread [<a >] from Father Brendan O’Malley not addressed to “Dear Pilgrim” but in fact to “Dear Bernard” (Gallagher) [<a >]. In his complete profile, Bernard Gallagher mentions seven (7) of his own blogs [<a >]
[to be continued]

Medjugorje and the song of its sirens (part 2 of 2)
After more than eight thousand words on the present thread, “Pilgrim” who is not “forthcoming with the full story” of his real name has resorted to a confession on the other thread [http://www.ncregister.com/blog/americas-1st-approved-apparition-was-what]: “Bonnie, Dianne (sic) and everyone else that has contributed to this topic, I want to take this opportunity to offer my sincere apologies for anything that I have said that may have offended or hurt anyone that has posted to this discussion. In my weakness I allowed myself to speak unjustly against others, brothers and sisters in Christ. It was nobody’s fault but my own, and for this I am truly sorry. In the words of St James, “Who am I to give a verdict on my neighbour?” I have done this and now wait for the Lord to lift me up again. Pray for me. Peace.”
I wonder if Mgr Pavao Zanic and Mgr Ratko Peric who have “heavily contributed to the topic” of Medjugorje are also addressees of those “sincere apologies”. Let us give Mr. Gallagher the benefit of the doubt. What weight then will have those sincere apologies coming from an anonymous pilgrim, especially if they are not reproduced on his seven blogs? Offences and unjust judgements will remain in the blogosphere, attributed to a masked “sinner”, and they will pursue their harmful influence on ill-informed readers. So far for the ethics of anonymous identification and its consequences.
My second question has to do with the “song of the sirens”: the so-called good fruits.

I have tried and am still trying to document that the edifice of the “Lady of Medjugorje” has been built on the quicksand of lies, artifices and falsifications produced by the main protagonists of Medjugorje. I invite the readers to look at the demonstration that the end of the “apparitions” announced by the “Lady of Medjugorje” [http://en.louisbelanger.com/2010/09/30/medjupedia-a-pause-?-the-construction-of-the-“lady-of-medjugorje”/#Lady of Medjugorje] has raised one of the most, if not the most important objection that has hindered the recognition of their supernatural character by the first three Commissions. [http://en.louisbelanger.com/2010/10/20/medjugorje-the-grand-concealment-2-three-more-days-duplicity-rene-laurentin/] I understand that it is not easy to acknowledge that priests and faithful indulge in such manoeuvres against the truth. Nevertheless it is the unfortunate reality. If Medjugorje protagonists are not truthful, and if you have documented proof of the construction of the Lady of Medjugorje, how can you still trust them and say that the Virgin Mary or Her Son is party to the artifice?
What place do well documented facts take in the process specified by the 1978 Norms? [http://d-rium.blogspot.com/p/normae-s-congregationis.html] The “facts” belong to the first place: moral certitude or at least great probability of the existence of the occurrence, acquired through serious investigation. Then personal qualities of the subject or subjects, especially psychological balance, uprightness and moral rectitude, sincerity and habitual docility toward ecclesiastical authority, followed by spiritual veracity, freedom from all error and conformity of revelations with theological doctrines. And, as a last resort, the question of spiritual fruits.
Some of the promoters close their eyes to the facts that are already accessible to every person of good faith—- not only to the members of the four Commissions. In a kind of wilful blindness, they lead their followers to an eventual collapse of trust. Read the following bragging by Stephen K. Ryan (ministryvalues.com) on Patrick Madrid’s blog: “If Medjugorje is proved false I want to meet the inventors and give them a hug.” [http://patrickmadrid.blogspot.com/2010/10/memo-to-certain-medjugorje-adherent-who.html] The problem with embracing fraud, deception and lying—- the end (the fruits) justifies the means—- is that it destroys the trust that one could have in the embracer. The whole matter is about trust and truthfulness.

Inspired by St. Augustin from his De Mendacio, the Cathechism [http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a8.htm#III] is very explicit on offenses about truth: (nr. 2486) “Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.”

I cannot imagine that the members of the Ruini Commission and Benedict XVI himself are not ready to “embrace” those careful thoughts.

Louis Bélanger

What took you so long Louis, and I didn’t even need to read your comments first; your name was enough.

Louis Belanger writes:
“As an “old-fashioned” researcher, it has never crossed my mind to sign my writings with a fictitious name: they would have never been published!”

I’m not sure what field you work in but in my field, history, all quality articles are published in peer-reviewed journals and all prospective articles are always reviewed anonymously. Why is this do you suppose? It’s because this is the only way the author’s ideas can be truly judged on their merit without some preconceived bias based on who the author is. People attach their names to them, not because they are afraid but because they hope that the attention their publication(s) will attract will help them gain employment. I fail to understand why it matters whether an author here decides to remain anonymous if his/her ideas are sound. Unlike you, some people may not want the attention if they are proven correct in their assumptions. I do not think it is appropriate for you to expose the name of someone who wishes to remain anonymous.

Thou shalt know him when he comes
Not by any din of drums
Nor by the vantage of his airs
Nor by anything he wears
Neither by his crown
Nor his gown
For his presence known shall be
by the holy harmony
that his coming makes in thee.
(anon)

By the way, Lynne’s comment just posted is one reason entries *should* be anonymous. She admits that she did not even read what Louis wrote before agreeing with him. I for one have looked over Mr. Bélanger’s website and found his analysis and critique of Medjugorje wanting. The emperor has no clothes.

Louis Bélanger writes:
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“I have tried and am still trying to document that the edifice of the “Lady of Medjugorje” has been built on the quicksand of lies, artifices and falsifications…”
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This statement implies that the author has a foregone conclusion before he approaches the evidence. It does not bode well for his credibility.

I am reminded of Gamaliel’s inspired wisdom in Acts 5 : 38-39
“If this enterprise, this movement of theirs, is of human origin it will break up of its own accord; but if it does in fact come from God you will not only be able to destroy them, but you might find yourselves fighting against God.”

@mgseamanjr
I am not inclined to engage in a dialogue with an interlocutor who takes at least three different identities in his communications. Unfortunately, I don’t have the energy to play that “game” in the present time.

See for your edification what I found on the Jewish Ethicist whose rabbi seems to take religion seriously—- aren’t we communicating, here, in a religious context where virtue and transparency are highly regarded? “So any statements that are both anonymous and unsubstantiated are almost by definition gossip. They will never be reliable enough to be believed, and there is no equitable way to refute them.” [http://www.aish.com/ci/be/48925397.html]

Otherwise, Lynne will surely be happy to learn that your sense of observation is quite sharp and that I cannot but agree with you. It is a documented evidence that “the emperor has no clothes” [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfstYSUscBc] However I find your unsubstantiated opinion concerning my documented analysis and critique of Medjugorje most wanting…
À la grâce de Dieu !
Louis Bélanger

Louis Belanger,  For me it is more a question that we are using the internet and many warnings have been given about divulging more than is absolutely necessary. Respondents could be from anywhere, what credibility is gained by knowing the name of a stranger?  And I too am confused by pilgrims apology.  Makes no sense unless as he wrote it roused negative sinful feelings or something, cause the responses seem fine.

• What’s in a name?

I am the Queen of Heaven… Green Bay apparition
I am the Immaculate Conception… Lourdes apparition
I am the Lady of the Rosary… Fatima apparition
I am Mary, Mother of the True God… Guadalupe apparition

•The disciple John identified himself as “the one whom Jesus loves”…

• There was Simon who was called Peter, and also Cephas…

• James and John, given the name Boanerges (Sons of Thunder)…

• Thomas also called Didymus…

• Joseph Ratzinger now named Benedict XVI…

mgseamanjr says: This statement implies that the author has a foregone conclusion before he approaches the evidence.

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Before he approaches the evidence?  LOL.  This is evidence - evidence of concealment, of hiding truth and distorting it.

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Louis Belanger is well versed on the evidence - he edited the Hidden Side of Medjugorje - the gold source of books on Medjugorje containing transcripts of translated, taped conversatons with the visionaries.  Unlike pro-Medjugorje sources which quoted these selectively, The Hidden Side allows the reader to see them in full, and does not change words that are damaging.

pilgrim - there is a difference between the Blessed Mother having various titles, or a person writing a prayer anonymously, and someone who hides behind anonymity to do “drive by” commenting.  More often than not, those who use pseudonyms will say things they wouldn’t dare say if they used their real names.  It’s easy to be condescending, as well because they don’t need to accept responsibility the same way people who use their real names do.

More positive words on Medjugorje from Fr Brendan O’Malley:

Mary’s mission is to lead people to God; to lead people to conversion; to lead people to prayer. “Pray, pray, pray” is one of her constant calls.

On November 25, 2008, her message was: “Dear children, I call you to pray, pray, pray, until prayer becomes life for you.”

In her message of December 25, 2005, Mary said: “Today, in my arms, I bring you the Child Jesus, the King of Peace, to bless you with his peace. Little children, in a special way today I call you to be carriers of peace in this peaceless world. Thank you for having responded to my call.” reminding us of the importance of saying ‘thank you’.

How often do we forget to say ‘thank you’ to God; to each other; thank you for the call to be people of prayer, people of peace?

When we realise how unworthy we are of God’s gifts and graciousness to us, not in spite of our sinfulness, but with all our ‘baggage’, then one’s motivating force can only be one of thanksgiving.

As a cynic who has been ‘converted’ I suggest that unless one has ‘tasted’ what I would call the ‘Medjugorje experience’, one should not be so ready to criticise and write it off. Why are people so ready to condemn? Why are people so fearful and dismissive? That is their privilege. But why not taste and see? To visit Medjugorje with an open mind is to experience God at work in his people, sending his love and healing through the Virgin Mary.

Mary calls us to conversion, prayer and love. Mary enables people to be healed in the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Healing. As a priest who has spent many hours celebrating the Sacrament with people from all walks of life, people young and old, I can affirm that God is doing great things in people’s lives, and what is even more wonderful, he has as a result done great things in my own life. I have had my priesthood affirmed and I have been healed of a great burden.

No one should criticise or deny this place of pilgrimage and renewal. No one should object to this place of prayer and peace. God is truly at work. How envious satan must be to see so many people, young and old, in prayer, penance and devotion, finding peace, purpose, and a God of love and compassion. Medjugorje is a place of hope and a new beginning.

Our Lady invites us to pray, pray, pray. “I pray before God to give you the gift of faith. Only in faith will you discover the gift of life that God has given you!”

May I ask all people to rejoice and to thank God for the wonderful gifts that he gives each day to his people through the Medjugorje experience, through Mary our Mother, whose mission is one of sheer love, leading us to God. Alleluia!

Bed-time now! :)

pilgrim,

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The Gamaliel argument has been used tirelessly with Medjugorje.  But, does it work with Medjugorje? At the end of the day, it can only be applied if there is nothing contrary to the truth.  But, Medjugorje is a question, according to Archbishop Allessandro D’Errico - “a question for which he [the Holy Father] feels responsible as the supreme head of the Church to pronounce a clear message”.
 

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It’s fine to let it be when there is nothing opposed.  However, as the Nuncio stated (in a pure translation of the Croatian found on the BiH Bishop’s Conference website):

The Holy Father personally knows it very well and he has told me that several times - he is well acquainted with the whole phenomenon. He knows about the great good that is being done in this region by the priests, the Franciscan friars, and the laity. And on the other hand he asks himself how come there is information in such opposition to this phenomenon.

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So, Medjugorje is a question.  And the Gamaliel principle will apply if there is nothing opposed, nothing which would make it unlikely that this is truly Mary.  That is what we await the final discernment of Holy Mother Church.  In the end, the Holy Father will discern whether Gamaliel’s principle applies.  You seem to believe it does.  Myself and many others see too much in opposition to it.

How time flies. It will soon be a year since cardinal Scönborn made his first ever visit to Medjugorje:

Here is a transcript of the homily he gave at Medjugorje during the vigil Mass celebrating the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God.

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• Praised be Jesus Christ!

Dear brothers and sisters here in the church and on the squares in front of the church, and in the yellow hall… We are all conscious of the fact that it is a big privilege to not have to celebrate the New Year with champagne. Maybe later…

But now we are allowed to celebrate the beginning of the New Year with Mary and Joseph and with the child that is lying in the manger and with the shepherds.

These days, we have all come to Medjugorje to be especially close to the Mother of the Lord. To be more exact, we have to say that we have come here because we know that the Mother of the Lord wants to be close to us.

With her, we want to begin the New Year. And the first thing that moves me when I think about the manger and the shepherds is that there were no angels present. Here there is an angel at the nativity set (points), but in the gospel there are no angels there. They were on the hills with the shepherds. An entire host of angels. But Mary and Joseph only heard about it. The shepherds told them. You also didn’t see the Gospa. But there are people here who told about it. And we trust that the Mother of God really is close to us.

Belief comes from hearing. And it impresses me that first, in the gospel of today, there is talk about hearing. We have to listen to the good news first. We have two ears, two eyes, and only one mouth. That means we have to listen much, watch much, and then talk also. And what are we supposed to say? We are supposed to report what we have seen and heard. The world needs a new evangelization and that is only possible through people for whom it is impossible to keep silent about what they have seen and heard.

We all have received the faith. And through baptism we all have received the task to pass on the faith. The shepherds related what they were told. And from there it went on. The gospel, the good news was told and those who told it were believable. Those who heard also saw that the word and life harmonise; that what the witnesses saw is also true in their life.

How can we be witnesses of the good news? First, by looking to Mary. Mary kept all that happened in her heart and pondered it.

Brothers and sisters, what we need most in this time is prayer. I’m saying this with a sadness of some sorts. I know that I’m not praying enough. I know that prayer is life. Without the living relationship with God our life becomes dry and empty.

What does the Mother of God tell us all the time? Pray. Make yourself time for prayer. Is that a good resolution for the New Year? For us priests and deacons? For us all? Time for prayer – it gives so much strength and so much joy; so much clarity. Let us ask Mary, that she helps us to pray more. When we pray our word is also filled with life. And then our testimony is credible.

I want to tell you something about what the apostle Paul told us. The Year of Paul is already over, we are now in the Year of Priests. But the word of the apostle Paul was so strong because it was filled with life. In the reading of today he talks about God sending his Son so that we can become sons. The daughters are not excluded here. Daughters and sons are meant together. But Paul says we are called to become sons – not slaves. Like Jesus is Son of God we are supposed to be allowed to call God, Father. In the beginning of this year the apostle Paul tells us: You are sons and not slaves.

I believe Medjugorje is a place where a lot of people confess. Confession is deliverance from the slavery of sin. Nothing makes us less free than sin. God wants us as sons: Freedom of the children of God. And for that he gifted us with the sacrament of reconciliation. We are to have a new relationship with God, to be allowed to call him Abba. Jesus invited us to that in a way that we trust him, that we trust God. There is so much fear of God in us .

“Jesus, I trust in you.” (in Croatian) I can also speak Polish (laughter). Jesu Ufam Tobie. Jesus, I trust in you. Pope John Paul II left us this message: Trust in the mercy of God. Trust in the mercy of Jesus.

Trust can be heroic sometimes, if life becomes difficult. If a marriage becomes a burden, if an illness oppresses us, if we don’t know what becomes of our work – then to say Jesu Ufam Tobie – that can be heroic. Trust – that really is an act of faith. And again we look to Mary. Who has made and gave this act of trust, of faith, more than Mary? Jesu Ufam Tobie. That is to be our programme in the coming year.

It is almost midnight and the fireworks are cracking outside. But we are not cracking, we are praying. We are not cracking, but we are singing!

And a last word: The shepherds returned and praised God, praised him for what they heard and seen. We, too, will return home. In order that we can become witnesses of the gospel, we have to praise God first. The shepherds praised God for what they have seen and heard. I hope that we can all drive home, travel home after these days here, and praise God for what we have seen and heard. Then people will also believe us when we tell. Then our word will be credible.

Now it is almost midnight. It is exactly the right moment to profess our faith. With this faith we are going into the New Year. God bless this year.

Hmmm… Vatican Radio (German edition) the day Schonborn apologized (and it just so happened to be a fax from Rome, on the very day that Schonborn just so happened to get called into the see the Holy Father after his visit to Medjugorje). 

Schönborn: Apology for Uproar about Medjugorje Visit (Google translate version). 

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Dear pilgrim: I don’t know if I have asked you this before…. how many trips have you made to Medjugorje?  Have you visited Guadalupe? <a href=“http://www.zenit.org/article-27841?l=english”>6.1 million pilgrims visited the Shrine in Mexico in just two days to mark the 478th annivesary. Truly, I hope you will make it to Guadalupe some day and spread the word about what you learn.  That is an approved apparition.

Here’s another positive experience of a priest that visited Medjugorje. (Not sure if he has ever visited Guadalupe, but I daresay he will have travelled to the National Marian Shrine in Ireland at Knock, probably quite a few times. :)

Bishop Seamus Hegarty of the Derry diocese in Ireland is one of many prelates who have made a private pilgrimage to Medjugorje. He travelled there in July 1987 (when he was bishop of Raphoe) and afterwards gave this testimony.

—————

I had heard so much about the Medjugorje phenomenon and, as things turned out, managed to go there myself for five days in July 1987. I went, of course, as a private pilgrim, a private person.

I couldn’t help being enormously impressed by everyone, both local parishioners and those who visit Medjugorje from all over Europe and overseas. I also got a very clear impression that here in Medjugorje you are dealing with a centre of prayer, of penance, and of reconciliation.

“By their fruits you shall know them.” Here the fruits are so manifest, so clear and impressive, both in Medjugorje itself and among those who return home after a pilgrimage, that they simply cannot be ignored.

Among many people from my own diocese that had been to Medjugorje I noticed the ongoing, positive results in relation both to their personal and family life. Thus I felt simply obliged to go to the place and find out myself the source, the explanation, of this experience, this tremendous manifestation of faith, this high and exemplary Christian way of life.

I have read the messages the Mother of God is said to be giving to the visionaries. And what I have seen and heard tells me that there is a strong accord, a parallel, between these messages and what the gospels say about the teaching of Christ. The emphasis is very strongly on prayer, fasting, reconciliation and peace – themes that occur over and over again in Scripture. One thing is clear about the Medjugorje messages: they contain nothing that contradicts the Church’s official teaching, which is based on Scripture as on a foundation. Here the emphasis is on prayer and how to pray – that is, with more giving of ourselves and intensity, and new methods of prayer; prayer not only in words but also as something lived.

But what is likewise emphasised in the messages is fasting. It has a long Church tradition behind it. Of recent years, however, it has fallen into disuse on a wide scale. Now it has been revived as a challenge that young people, in particular, face up to in a dramatic way.

We recognise that in Medjugorje we are dealing with a genuine call to peace, and that peace is a divine gift for which we all must pray. On the basis of what I myself observed in Medjugorje, and which everyone that has been there likewise observes, I believe that we are going to experience a radiation of this atmosphere of peace which has it origin, its centre, in Medjugorje, thereupon extending itself over the entire world.

Many prayer groups have been formed as a direct result of a pilgrimage to Medjugorje, an outcome of the religious experience people gain there and which they thereupon keep up and apply to their own life circumstances among their families and communities. Beyond doubt, the Medjugorje phenomenon has had a particular success in everything to do with fostering prayer. Not only do people more than is normal in parishes, but the quality of their prayer is particularly impressive.

The rosary, as we would expect, is one of the most important forms of prayer practised by Medjugorje groups. What has strongly impressed me is that in its recitation the biblical dimension of the mysteries is brought out so prominently.

As regards the Church – the official Church – it cannot afford to ignore this development. Bishops and priests must encourage these prayer groups and, in my opinion, must also be present at them to give leadership and due advice and spiritual orientation. It must also be said that the laity who, with good intentions and devotion, come together to pray deserve every help and direction they can get from the clergy. While, it is true, the presence of a priest is not absolutely necessary at prayer meetings, it is nonetheless most desirable in order that exaggerations and unrealistic or mistaken ideas and expectations may be avoided.

It would be a great pity if Medjugorje’s central message (prayer, fasting, reconciliation and peace) became obscured in any way or if excessive emphasis came to be placed on signs and wonders. Accordingly, the presence at these prayer meetings of the Official Church in the person of the priest is very much to be desired.

My most outstanding experience in Medjugorje was the hearing of Confessions. One day I spent three hours doing so. And I am sure that during those three hours I heard more Confessions of the kind that are basic and come from the depth of the heart than during all the 21 years of my priesthood. I could not help but be moved by the workings of grace – the clear workings of grace; also, by the clear acceptance of the call to penance and reconciliation which expressed themselves so unmistakably in the quality of the Confessions I heard. So this experience will ever remain my most impressive and abiding Medjugorje memory.

Diane,
I’m glad you find my posts so amusing. Just because one has edited or published a book on a topic does not make one an expert on it. My problem stems from Mr. Bélanger’s methodology. I did not state that he was unfamiliar with the evidence but that he formed his conclusions before examining it. This is *not* the way to discover the truth, which is what a historian attempts to do. If you form your conclusions before examining the evidence, you run the risk of misinterpretation and forcing conclusions to fit your thesis. You make silly statements, like “The people of Medjugorje are so fraudulent that they even say “Praised be Jesus and Mary too often” (something you essentially stated above). I read through Mr. Bélanger’s website, rather quickly I admit, and found, for starters, his presentation of the evidence careless and very unbalanced (for instance, he inserts quotations but does not cite their sources; he accuses the visionary Vicka of several things but does not allow her to defend herself but merely gives us his own interpretation of the events, etc.). I’m sorry but this is the work of a sloppy or untrained historian. Moreover, he also calls into question the character of several priests, including Fr. Slavko Barbaric, to whom I confessed and whose many books I have read (so I know a little of his character) when he states that Fr. Slavko came to the defense of some Croatians who were accused by the War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia. For instance, he accuses Fr. Slavko of “coming to the defense of war criminals,” such as the Croatian General Blaskic who was handed a sentence of 45 years, something Fr. Slavko called unjust. But in fact, a quick read of the entry for General Blaskic at the very accessible Wikipedia sheds light on what happened next: “In 2004, his command responsibility for most of the charges was found non-existent on appeal, and his sentence was commuted to 9 years imprisonment,” finding him only guilty of one charge, his responsibility for his soldiers’ inhumane treatment of prisoners. Fr. Slavko was vindicated but one would not know this from reading Mr. Bélanger’s website, where one is only left with the impression that the Franciscan “supports war criminals.”

In his rush to accuse Fr. Slavko, Mr. Bélanger has inadvertently embraced the combative and (I think it’s safe to say, given the recently published Wikileaks cables) aggressively anti-Catholic Carla del Ponte, the chief prosecutor of the tribunal, someone who has now earned the distinction of being the first international war crimes tribunal chief prosecutor to be put under investigation herself, for allowing the use of bullying and bribing of witnesses, or tainted evidence in her court (see http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2010/aug/18/carla-del-ponte-prosecution).

Unlike you, Diane, I am not ready to build a career defending my views of Medjugorje, nor do I have the time. I have five small children and a sixth baby on the way and this is where my priorities are and where I devote my free time. It seems a moot point to delve into this now to any greater degree since, it would seem, and one would hope, we are about to learn the conclusions of a far better study by the competent authorities. But I would like to ask you a question that I posed to Mr. Bélanger in our private correspondence. I am curious to learn what your reaction would be if you suddenly learn that all your analysis was wrong and you have done much damage to the cause of an authentic Marian apparition. After all, unlike folks like me who put in their two cents here and there merely to defend Medj. when unfair charges are leveled against it and against its supporters, you are on the attack, out to destroy, leaving in your wake the reputations of priests and other religious, not to mention the “visionaries.” To me, this is, at best, detraction and, assuming the Catholic Church disagrees with your analysis, much worse. You apparently see yourself as a crusader but how would you see yourself if you were found out to be entirely wrong? Lastly, I would ask everyone here to please say a prayer for Mr. Bélanger, whom I recently discovered is ill.

In the first instance, the Bishops of Rome past and present, as supreme heads of both the church and a sovereign state claiming diplomatic immunity on any felonies committed, are definately responsable for the mental well being an spiritual welfare of all it’s subjects.
The Nuncio speaking for or translating on behalf of, the same is just another cog in the wheel.
Millions of hard earned dollars have been exploited from the faithful over the years and as time goes by the church, will bring around a way out of what should have been done long ago; denounce it.
The far reaching influence has defrauded millions and only Rome as in many other instances can get away with it.
And we won’t go into the exploitations by the Franciscans, including those not previously mentioned.
Golden rosaries, sexual deviancy rape healings, there’s a whole litany out there you wouldn’t even dream about\ paid off with contributions from who knows where. 
When the likes of Louis Belanger speaks out he is derided and all I can say is no sympathy is due to those who continue to allow themselves to be exploited.
There is a huge difference between being a fool for God and at the hand of foolish men.

@mgseamanjr

I have already written here that I am not inclined to engage in a dialogue with an interlocutor who takes at least three different identities in his communications.

In the meantime, Mr. anonymous mgseamanjr (Mr. M) has confirmed one of his identities in a private email and has asked me not to reveal it. I will respect his wish and, for the sake of benevolence, suppose that it is a valid one.

What follows has nothing to do with a dialogue, but rather a necessary clarification as Mr. M puts my intellectual integrity into question.

I have to make the effort and take the time to respond here to his irresponsible unsubstantiated insinuations before they become gossip. I will address the main issues, reserving the eventual development on my blog [http://en.louisbelanger.com/2010/12/17/medjugorje-and-the-song-of-its-sirens/] with a plea for a responsible identification of, at least, a “Christian name” one should be proud of, especially in the context of a Catholic blog…

First, Mr. M admits that he read through my website rather quickly. It is very unfortunate, because the rigorous reading of a few editorials would have avoided him to indulge in judgements of intention. He says: “I did not state that he [Bélanger] was unfamiliar with the evidence but that he formed his conclusions before examining it.” In the first editorial I wrote, six months ago, [http://en.louisbelanger.com/2010/06/01/why-since-1986-is-the-lady-of-medjugorje-not-considered-to-be-the-virgin-mary-1-an-itinerary/] I reproduced the “declaration of intent” that I presented to the Franciscan pastoral personnel in Medjugorje and to the Bishop of Mostar, Mgr Pavao Zanic, in January 1985. Here is an excerpt of it: “I come to Medjugorje, not motivated by faith but rather in the spirit of scientific research. The Bishop’s firm position on alleged collective hallucinations doesn’t prevent me of having a favourable bias toward the possibility of authentic phenomena at the beginning of the events (luminous phenomena, ecstatic behaviour). I do not side with the Franciscans nor the Bishop and I wish to meet them in a spirit of research.” Mr. M’s allegation is consequently unfounded and his lecturing attached to it inappropriate.

Second, Mr. M pretends that my “presentation of the evidence [is] careless and very unbalanced (for instance, he [Bélanger] inserts quotations but does not cite their sources.” No identification of the evidence is presented by Mr. M, no example of “careless presentation” or of “quotations without their sources” is given. Mr. M’s allegation is unsubstantiated.

Third, Mr. M claims that I give the readers or viewers (cf clip of “ecstasy” I filmed in Medjugorje with Vicka’s justification) merely my own interpretation of the events concerning Vicka, without giving any example of my purported “sloppy work”. Mr. M’s allegation is unsubstantiated. [part 1 of 2]

@mgseamanjr [part 2 of 2]

Fourth, Mr. M alleges that I call into question “the character of several priests, including Fr. Slavko Barbaric, where one is only left with the impression that the Franciscan “supports war criminals” and that I “inadvertently embraced the combative and aggressively anti-Catholic Carla del Ponte”. Unfortunately, Mr. M confuses the faithful report and interpretation of an event or writing authored by René Laurentin or Slavko Barbaric, for instance, with an ad hominem attack of their authors. I reproduced in extenso Fr. Barbaric’s report, underlined that he praised “good and noble men” who were “ready to lay down their lives in defense of their own homeland”, that Medjugorje meant “very much for all of them” and that he “wished profoundly that the sacrifice of these men be blessed”. Then I submitted some reliable historical references to the Ahmici massacre and to the role those “noble men” played in the organized attack and destruction, not the “defense”, of Bosniak civilians. Moreover I gave two references of an important event, in 2010, documented with pictures that Mr. M conceals, showing the Croatian President Ivo Josipovic accompanied by Islamic and Catholic religious leaders in Bosnia where he promised “never again” to the survivors in Ahmici, a village where Croat forces killed 116 Muslim Bosniak civilians in 1993. I wonder why Mr. M associates me with “the aggressively anti-Catholic Carla del Ponte”… It appears to me rationally untenable.

Finally, the important question of Mr. M: “I am curious to learn what your reaction would be if you suddenly learn that all your analysis was wrong and you have done much damage to the cause of an authentic Marian apparition.” After all,[…] you are on the attack, out to destroy, leaving in your wake the reputations of priests and other religious, not to mention the “visionaries.””

May I remind Mr. M that I reconstruct the facts before submitting an analysis and an interpretation. The presentation of the facts is backed with valid documents. When there are lies and falsifications, I denounce them, according to the “rules of the game” determined by Benedict XIV (Prospero Lambertini—- see my contribution in Diane’s blog = [http://te-deum.blogspot.com/2010/02/medjugorje-louis-belanger-responds-to.html]), a great scholar, humanist and upright pope (1740-1758). My emotions do not lead the patient reconstruction and examination of the facts I have made in the last 25 years. I am only following the rules revised by the CDF in 1978 that encourage the rigorous approach of phenomena by discerning mystery from mystification. Documented lies will remain lies, documented falsifications and deceptions will remain offenses to truthfulness. I am not anxious about the verdict of the Ruini Commission as you seem to be. The first three Commissions have not acknowledged that the Virgin Mary is appearing in Medjugorje. I am confident that the fourth one will be loyal to the work already done by 40 experts and to the verdict of non constat pronounced by 19 out of the 20 Bishops of former Yugoslavia.

As I am confident that one day, the critics and the proponents of Medjugorje will understand that they are members of one another, the Communion of Saints, and that there exists something greater that transcends Medjugorje, their object of study or of belief: that is charity and compassion. As I have written personally to Mr. M who offered me his prayers before his last comment on the present thread, “I am very grateful to you for your compassion and prayers that touch me deeply.” I must say that his generous offer gives me hope.

Louis Bélanger

Well, I guess I’ll add my two cents worth to this avalanche of comments.  I have to say that this is the first place I have come across with so many negative Medjugorje comments.  And the people who are negative like to accuse those who believe, of fanaticism and disobedience and unenlightened zeal, when they seem to be the ones displaying these negative traits in all their negative comments. They seem more interested in silencing the Medjugorje believers than getting at the truth; along with writing many self righteous statements.
  For those who have problems with the Blessed Virgin Mary’s schedule, they are thinking in earthly terms, and from their own limited perceptions. I forget the name, but there is an approved Marian series of apparitions in France in the Alps to a shepherd girl in the 1800’s that went on for 50 years! The Church approved it. What about the hundreds of times our Lord Jesus Christ appeared to Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska of the Divine Mercy? Skeptics would say that He was overdoing it, or how could He have the time for all those appearances or locutions? What about the many times He appeared to St. Teresa of Avila? Or the hundreds of times He appeared to Sister Josefina Menendez?  What about the 50 years of the Dark Night of the Soul that Mother Teresa endured; as documented in the book, “Come Be My Light, the Private Writings of the ‘Saint of Calcutta.’”  Or the 50 years of the Dark Night of the Soul endured by St. Paul of the Cross?  Those who question the actions of the Blessed Virgin Mary expect her to act as they see fit, not as she sees fit. I let the Blessed Virgin Mary act however she wants since she is much greater than any of us.
  The fruits from Medjugorje have been great.  Hundreds of men have become priests due to it; such as Marian father Donald Calloway, and a priest in my own archdiocese of Boston who mentioned it to me when we were on a Pro-Life Walk in 2009.  There have probably been thousands of vocations when you consider nuns and brothers as well as priests. And Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna when he visited Medjugorje last New Year’s Eve said that the fruits of what is going on there is not from man.  In other words, it is from God. Pope John Paul II believed in Medjugorje with many informal comments such as:  “Approve anything to do with Medjugorje.” He is the pope who took it out of the hands of the local bishop and brought the matter under the direct supervision of the Pope. Ever wonder why? Because he saw that the local bishop was prejudiced, was against the apparitions.  John Paul the Great came to believe in them. And the six Medjugorje visionaries visited him many times in Rome.  That would not have been the case if John Paul had not believed in Medjugorje.
  If you have ever been to Medjugorje you will see 30 priests up on the altar saying Mass!  Ever see that in the U.S?  Thousands of priests and nuns have gone to Medjugorje; which has been permitted by the Vatican for decades. Could they all be fooled?  And 20 million pilgrims are fooled? And John Paul II was fooled? I agree with those who saw in Pope Benedict singling out St. James the Apostle parish for special recognition in his weekly audience a warmth toward the Message of Medjugorje. If he was against it he would not have singled them out, that is obvious natural behavior, he would have remained silent.
  And let us compare Medjugorje to Church-approved apparitions. At Lourdes many Church authorities were skeptical of St. Bernadette until it was approved.  The bishop of Guadalupe never believed St. Juan Diego until the Blessed Virgin Mary performed a miracle just so that he would be forced to believe!!! The children at Fatima were disbelieved in general until the Miracle of the Sun in October, 1917.
  I believe that special blessings are given to those who believe in miracles and apparitions before the Church approves them; as our Lord said:  “Blessed are those who believe who have not seen Me,” in mildly rebuking St. Thomas the doubter because he would not believe the Apostles word until he saw our Resurrected Lord with his own eyes.
  I have been to Medjugorje and I can tell you that it is for real!  The peace one finds there is incredible. As for the problem between one bishop and some of the Franciscans, it is in their history, unfortunately. The Franciscans came to Medjugorje in the 1400’s or 1500’s. When the Moslem Turks came and conquered the Balkans in the 1500’s, the diocesan priests and bishops fled.  The Franciscans stayed with the people, practiced the Catholic Faith with the people, and endured persecution and oppression from the Moslems.  When the Catholic Austro-Hungarian Empire defeated the Turks and drove them out of the Balkans in the 1800’s, the diocesan priests and bishops returned. But the people’s affection has been with the Franciscans ever since because the Franciscans stayed in Bosnia and Croatia and endured Moslem persecution for the sake of God and the Catholic people of the region; they didn’t flee for their own safety like the diocesan priests and bishops did. Since then, regrettably, there has been tension between the Franciscans and the diocesans.  My sympathies are with the Franciscans who stayed with the Croatian people under three centuries of Moslem oppression.
  Has anyone read the messages of the Blessed Virgin Mary from Medjugorje these past 29 years?  Can anyone find even an iota of error in them, after 29 years?  They are beautiful messages, strong and truthful.  Could six young people stay united for 29 1/2 years in what they are saying despite intense pressure from the world unless it were true? It is impossible otherwise. And if you’ve ever met them you will be struck by their goodness and grace. I am sure that there are people who don’t believe the Messages form Fatima, Lourdes, Akita, Rwanda, LaSalette, Betania, Venezuela, Divine Mercy from Poland, despite Vatican approval. They don’t have to believe. It is private revelation. But they are much the poorer for not believing.

Hugh; whether one believes in the “apparations” or not, Rome will never lose face over them and the faithful will assuredly be apeased one way or another. If they don’t, at some time or other, violence could very well be the result due to the deceptions and dissentions brought about within not only families but to marriages an is less than unitive which would be conducive one would imagine.
Nothing unitive there.
The monies raised worldwide for the Bosnian war effort, due to the arms emargo placed by the United Naions has never come into play in any of the comments submitted that I can recall.
The disobedience of the Franciscans (and not only on site); is only part of it.
It’s called politics my friend; and as usual it’s the vulnerable who pay for it, literally.
An endeared Australian Catholic bishop appropiately once stated; “We are a church of contradictions” and you can’t get better than that.

Hi Lynne,

  It seems you were cutting and pasting in your first paragraph because it doesn’t make sense.  Some sentences are missing.
  As for the Bosnian war effort it is in the past and is irrelevant anyways vis-a-vis the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Medjugorje.
  I have met or listened to some of the Franciscan priests in the Medjugorje area, such as Father Jozo, and let me tell you, they are great priests!  Strong, orthodox, fervent! If we are talking about “disobedience” then I point to the jealousy of the diocesan bishop against the Franciscan priests; because the people of Medjugorje are on the side of the Franciscans! And I see the diocesan bishop as disobedient, not the Franciscans. This bishop is simply jealous of the Franciscan priests and the Croatian people’s affection for the Franciscans.  That is at the heart of the bishop’s disobedience in refusing to believe what is right in front of his nose.
  I think that Pope John Paul the Great and Pope Benedict XVI privately believed in our Lady’s apparitions in Medjugorje, but the Church traditionally does not rule on apparitions until they end, and the Medjugorje apparitions have not ended.  That is a good thing, because when they end, you know the Chastisements are near.

Hi Hugh; I thought I may have to rewrite my comment when “cut and paste” was mentioned.
I understand what Ive written, albeit between guests calling in for “Christmas salutations”,  non-alcolic I might add.
Rome/Vatican /Holy See/or whoever, will never lose face over these alledged apparitions is what Iv’e said and that’s plain enough isn’t it? And don’t you think it plausable that there would be repurcussions directly or indirectly if it is conluded that nothing supernatural is happening apart from an act of simple faith by the vulnerable.
How expedient no ruling is made until after they have ceased; see, there’s always a way out.
I knew a Catholic solicitor whose building received a bomb scare at the time he was dealing with a case involving a Medjugorje promoting franciscan, totally exploited by his order.
So much so, the solicitor looked to his bishop for support and no doubt protection, at the expense of the one he was representing, also threatened with the ‘big guns” if there was no retreat or any adverse publicity. Please;
No, great lengths in appeasemnt will be taken in dealing with this non-event, or maybe they will just wait until this generation dies out and it pales, eventually into oblivion.
Which ever way it goes, a lot of politics and money is/was involved here/there and the church is well experienced in these matters and always comes out in front. 
Is it Christmas day in your part of the world yet?
If it is, have a lovely day and I hope “Santa” brought you something nice.

Hi Lynne,

  Merry Christmas to everyone!!!

  It is never a question of “losing face” over apparitions.  Either they are true or false.  If true, the Church accepts and believes them, if false, no one believes them.  A very simple matter.
  It is not “expedient” to traditionally wait until an apparition ends to judge it.  That is a wrong use of the word.  It is common sense and logical to wait, normally, because all the facts are not in until the apparition ends.
  As for the “repercussions” you seem fixated on, there will be little to none. If true, then people like yourself will be surprised but will hopefully accept it; if false, then people like me will be surprised but will 100% accept the judgment of the Church.
  I’m sure many people were stunned at the time when the Church accepted the apparitions of Fatima, Lourdes, Akita, Japan, Betania, Venezuela, Rwanda, LaSallette, Guadalupe, etc.  But the Faithful accept the judgment of the Church. There are no “repercussions” if one accepts the truth.
  As for your “bomb scare” talk, that also makes no sense.
  I and nearly all Catholics and Christians and even seculars and atheists have always had a high regard for the Franciscan order of the Catholic Church. Founded by one of our greatest saints, St. Francis of Assisi, it is one of the most loved and respected of all Catholic orders. St. Francis himself revealed that our Lord Jesus Christ promised him that He Himself would head the Franciscan order until the end of the world. That is why one rarely hears of scandals involving Franciscans; unlike diocesan priests and bishops, Jesuits, and American nuns.
  I am very confident Medjugorje will be completely approved by the Church; as Akita, Japan recently was, Rwanda recently was, and Betania, Venezuela recently was. The judgment will come after the apparitions end, whenever that will be. This is the right course in order to ascertain all the facts. Whatever the judgment, I and all who are obedient to the Holy Roman Catholic Church will accept it, trusting in the wisdom and truth of Mother Church.

I believe that prayer Conversions and fasting are good things but they are only the means to attain good fruits.

The real fruits are charity, love, patience, love of God, fear of God, love of truth, peace, understanding, acceptance, spiritual poverty, obedience, etc.

When people say that Medjugorje has produced good fruits such as prayer and fasting or even conversions, I still think that they are not the fruits to look for in order to be authentic because other religions invite prayer, conversion and fasting to their devotees and also because if people do not go beyond praying and conversion, then the tree has not bare good fruits yet.

Merry Christmas to all.

Conversion to our Lord Jesus Christ is what is most important.  From that everything else stems. The Popes all the time ask for conversion, Jesus Christ all the time asks for conversion, the Blessed Mother all the time asks for conversion.  It is the most important fruit, not the least! Look at the messages of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict and the saints, along with the Blessed Mother at Fatima, Lourdes, Medjugorje.  They always ask for a continuing conversion until the end of life. That is what is most important because true conversion to our Lord Jesus Christ brings the other spiritual fruits. Continuing conversion to our Lord Jesus Christ is the highest good, there is nothing equal to or beyond it. From true and continuing conversion to our Lord Jesus Christ come the rest of the good fruits, in that order.

Hugh; there’s that “fixation” word again. It seems to be a popular synonym.
A little like the words ” we regret” and “forgive” we constantly hear from some of our bishops and superiors of our “Mother the Church” for the abuse of our/her beautiful innocent children for decades, whilst moving their charges from one parish to another.
As I said, the church will find a way to get itself out of the Medjugorjie dilemma, now having full control over the diocese and the hearts and minds of the faithful, spiritually if not directly.
As far as St Francis is concerned, I doubt he would even recognise the order he founded today.
I will conclude with, you don’t hear much about scandals for many reasons Hugh, one is the power they wield, another are offers made too good to refuse for many, but with it’s exceptions of course, with confidentialities and no liability.
A common practice and legal in one sense.
Their powers that be must hold a pretty tight reign where you are if you have never heard of any cases.

Hi Lynne,

  I see that you are not interested in legitimate dialogue on Medjugorje, but instead are really interested in false bashing of the Roman Catholic Church, and false accusations about Medjugorje which you know nothing about. Indeed, your emails all are quite scatterbrained and senseless, along with multiple misspellings.
  I think you would continue these emails for the rest of your life if given the chance, but I have more important things to do. Never argue with a fool, as Proverbs states.

No false bashing of the church on my part Hugh;.
I just refuse to accept what has been done in my name as a Catholic and I wouldn’t care to be a member of any family who does, it’s as simple as that.
There are many real life situations out there and skimming over or denying them is an injustice and contrary to what we stand for or what our faith stand for.
Any form of deception is one of them.
Silence gives consent fool or not.

Dear people,

It is the most solemn day of Christmas. Go - spend the day in thanksgiving for the gift of Jesus this day.

I only became aware of the debate taking place because I’m on email notification, which I am turning off.

Merry Christmas to all of you!

Happy New Year to all,
Hugh,
Yes, you are correct, the conversion which comes about from accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior can produce fruits. I believe it does only when the conversion is a true conversion from the heart.  I can convert and accept Jesus as my Savior and Lord but I might not fully let Him be my Savior and Lord if I don’t fully follow His teachings do not live them and do not share them with others, hence the seed of conversion which was planted in my heart is a dead seed and will be thrown out to the fire if it does not produce good fruits.

Once a good priest told me that it is most important to pray for the salvation of souls than for the conversion of souls since some do convert but they do not continue in the path of salvation and could get lost by not producing good fruits thereby becoming the baren tree of the Gospels.  Just a thought.

You yourself have agreed that conversion is the begining of a true life in Christ when one continues trying to live like Christ.  Then one needs to put effort and action after one accepts Jesus Christ and begin to use the gifts that we receive from the Holy Spirit so that our soul is carved into Jesus’ own image. 

Convesion is not enough we need action.  We need to live by continuously shaping our lives and hearts into the life of our Savior.  We are workers in the vinyard of our Lord and with Him we help in the establishment of the Kingdom of God. 

Some Christian brothers believe that once saved always saved.  Some think that once a person accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior that is enough to be saved.  Catholics believe we have to do more.  We have the Holy Sacraments to help in achieving salvation.  We have to put 100% of ourselves and with faith and the Sacraments we grow each day towards the
salvation that we have been called for.

Conversion is only the seed towards producing a fruitful tree. 
Some Convesions can stay barren and stagnant thereby it can not be used to authenticate a private revelation unless it brings about good fruits.

A good tree, after having truly from the heart converted to Christ, brings about good fruits; charity, peace, love, understanding, acceptance, obedience, etc..

Peace of Christ, Maria, While I agree in theory with what you state, I have encountered alot of people who are networking to run peoples lives and are judging what is progress, what is conversion, what a person needs to look, eat, feel, be like.  It is incredibly insidious - under the guise of Christianity some are deciding they are GOD and know everything you need and should do.  So if we are talking about waking up each morning and placing oneself in God’s hands and praying to discern God’s will and actually seeing His will in the circumstances of our life through His teaching, then we agree, but if you are part of that other group, then not.  That group is constantly taking splinters out of other’s eyes while having logs in their own.

To Pam,
Peace of Christ to you too.
I believe is a good step to have one good holy spiritual advisor in order to check and balance our spiritual growth because even spirituality can cause us to sin and by having someone telling us how we are doing is not out of the question when we want to follow a holy life.  St. Teresa of Avila stressed the need to her nuns about finding a good and holy spiritual advisor.

I was just writing about the fruits which are a testimony to the intervention of God in private revelations.  One does not need to be scrutinizing people in order to feel, see and sense that they are true to their charity, love of neighbor, love of God and so on.  The good fruits are palpable.  They are sensed.  They are seen.  They are lived.
When people live the fruits of the Holy Spirit others notice without the need to judge.

Thanks for the clarification Maria.  Yes, we agree.  Peace of Christ to you.

same old comments and same old arguments from the same old opponents, nothing new here….but people continue to go to Medjugorje and miracles of physical and spiritual continue also….the faith of a mustard seed produces God’s greatest gifts….thank God for Medjugorje!

There are six (6) seers, they’ve had thousands of Mary sightings and are extremely now rich because of it.  I do not know of any other saint or approved seer that has had has many sightings or earthly richness.  Saint Bernadette, the seers of Fatima and Saint Catherine Laboure became rich, but not on this earth, but in heaven and even they did not get to see Mother has often as these six (6) seers.  There is something strange about these six (6) seers, mathematically their number is diabolical.

It sounds as if anonymous is into the 666 numbers of the anti-christ
that’s been around the traps for decades.
It wouldn’t be fair to try and convince the readers there’s a connection to the Popes, the same goes for the exaggerated ill will in All Seeing Eye of God and the Masons.
They have enough on their plates.
Jimmy must be pleased with 260 now 261 comments on this webpage.

I apologize, that was a low blow, I do not have the right to convict anyone of being diabolical.  Forgive me, it is best I keep my comments to myself, I can clearly see that everyone in the blog is much more highly educated then me, I was wrong to comment.  Hoping I did not hurt anyone`s feelings.  Again, I am truly sorry, Anonymous

Comment 263—then again it might be the work of the devil. God only knows..

Toughen up Anonymous, it wasn’t personal.
Unfortunately many Catholics aren’t aware of these things and only a distraction from the real issues affecting us.
Continue to contribute; the trouble is there are so many using “anonymous” it can cause confusion, but everone has their reasons.

Thank you Lynne, your are a kind soul.  Your first comment made me realize to be more careful when commenting, after all, we can’t take it back once it’s out there, all one can do is apologize.  I am hoping that our good Pope Benedict will soon rule on Medjugorje’s fate, I will accept his decision whatever it may be.  Born a Catholic, between the ages of 11-50 between being lazy and rebellious, I did not always practice my faith diligently.  These days I’m working harder at it, praying, following our Catholic faith and tuning on to EWTN, they’ve managed to set me straight.  I do believe in miracles, though it can be tough in this world, the light from the morning sun, the evening stars and moon still shower their rays upon us to remind us of greater things to come.  God bless you and everyone reading this blog, take care, Alda Maria

anonymous—your opinion is always welcome and it just as good—if not better—than some of the others on these posts. Take care and keep commenting!!

Thank you Patt, you have a way of uplifting one’s soul, to give them the courage and push they need.  Today was the feast of Our Lady of Lourdes, may she work a miracle in our lives and make us see that we are just lost souls in this world, always searching for Heaven on earth.  Love will conquer all, if not in this world, in the next. As Father Corapi puts it, our Lady wears combat boots, and we are the winners, it is so written in revelations.  Demons may have their way with us during the day and more so at night, this is warfare, and we are soldiers and must never give up combat, also preached by Father Corapi.  Also, here in Toronto the cold weather is getting to the best of our little furry friends (cats) that are homeless, please I can’t be the only one that loves them, please I beg of everyone pray for warmer weather for the homeless and also for stray animals.  I’ve taken in more then is allowed, I can’t see them suffer, but the last stray I took in, his name is Biaggio, named after St Basil, is not doing well, and the ones outside are doing worse.  Please pray for warmer weather, shelter, food and love for the homeless souls and all of God’s creatures.  Thank you in advance for those that will pray, AM

I am looking forward to warmer weather here in Texas—for health reasons. I love Father Corapi’s talks, and old tapes and books by Bishop Sheen—Stay warm!

It takes time to review and confirm the apparitions of Our Lady of Peace in Medjugorje. But, after making several pilgrimages there, meeting the visionaries, and studying the many interesting events and literature related to Medjugorje, I would be very surprised if Medjugorje does not rank among Our Blessed Mother’s popular apparitions:  Guadalupe, Lourdes, and Fatima.

@J P Noel

I would be amazed if Medjugorje was declared a true apparition. Good fruits come from the Church and the sacraments. Always.

Not from an unapproved apparition.

I’ve always been told that the Church can not approve an apparition until it’s over.  While it is on going, things could happen that would be against the faith and the Church would have made a grave error in approving it.  Does anyone know if this is the case?

Miriam, by your calculation, there were no good fruits at Fatima or Lourdes until these apparitions were officially recognized by church authorities. This does not make sense. Prepare to be amazed.

In this day and age, where apologies are coming in profusion from Catholic authorities everywhere (a penitent church), when drug cartels have effected 40,000 deaths on the Mexican /US border, when there is a $20 billion cash flow for pornography, and international crime (eg the bikies) is almost unstoppable (bikies are more effective than police crossing international borders, MEDJUGORJE comes as a PEARL OF GREAT PRICE, for parishes, for parents, for everyone.

mystical expereinces.. - preists have been taught to ignore them.. send people to the doc. or mental doc…
    God workds in our ways ,, mentally physically , and spiritually..
when baptized we receive the Holy Spirit to guide us in our faith and beleif in God…
  no we should not boast of things.. but the trueth is the trueth.. we should not be shuned or ashamed of them.. God is the one who who does them.. we do nothing.. and we do not make them.. the apostles had them . and they did not keep it secret.. it was about God and how God touches us to guide us to what is good.. yes all things need to be tested.. and even our intentions… searching testing.. making sure it is Gods will not ours ,, and it is about God not us… the prophets also had mystical expereinces.. to teach and test them.. we as the baptized can receive them all of us can… but we must use them in wisdom , to help others find and seek Gods ways… it is part of our faith .. God gives his power to his people.. when they follow His ways,,,,

Does anyone have any updated information on Father John Corapi, April 16/12—happy birthday to Pope Benedict & Saint Bernadette!!

I’ve went to Medjugorje 22 years ago, when I was still a teen.  I saw the inexplicable and the miraculous.

However!  Looking back at what I saw and heard while I was there, and the huge amount of evidence I’ve seen since then, I would have to say that I DO NOT believe Our Lady is appearing to the so-called ‘visionaries’.

In saying that, I do believe she is there in the same way she is wherever you are now.