The Register’s own Edward Pentin scored an interview with Philadelphia Archbishop Charles Chaput when the archbishop was in Rome for his ad limina visit last week. The interview was conducted after the release of the archbishop’s dramatic letter to his flock and contains some additional detail on the subjects he touched on in the letter. Here’s the portion of the interview that deals with that:
You issued what seems to be a very well-received pastoral letter to the archdiocese on the feast of the Immaculate Conception in which you aired a variety of serious concerns and spoke about difficult times ahead with the completion of your review of priests accused in the grand jury report and church and school closings. Could you tell us more about why you wrote it?
The circumstances in Philadelphia are difficult at the moment. We’re in a period of responding to a grand jury report that was negative about the way the archdiocese has handled the issues of sex abuse of minors by the clergy.
In addition to that, we have a major study about the number and locations of Catholic schools. Philadelphia was a place where parochial schools began in the U.S. under the leadership of St. John Neumann, so Catholic education has an extraordinary place in the hearts of our people. But we have huge financial problems as a result of schools using up their resources of their parishes, because we don’t have enough students in the schools and yet we have to pay living wages to our teachers in ways that wasn’t the case when we had large numbers of religious working.
So we needed to re-order the way we do Catholic education, not to do it less, but to re-order in a way that we save our system so that it doesn’t kill itself by just using up all its resources.
We have the issue of priest personnel, Catholic schools and the issue of multiple parishes in the same neighborhood because they were ethnic parishes. But as time has gone on, the people who founded them have moved to other places. We have on the same city block sometimes three to four parishes — how do we manage those in a way that is financially feasible and also respects the tight personnel situation with priests in the local Church?
Also, I’m concerned about the number of seminarians we have. We only have 48, and yet where I come from prior to September — a diocese one-third of the size in terms of Catholics — we had 80 seminarians. So I’m concerned about the number of seminarians. We have a great seminary, Saint Charles Borromeo, but it’s underutilized.
You stressed there would be tough times in the year ahead.
All of those issues are coming to a head at the same time. It’s the “perfect storm” they talk about. The grand jury has led to the indictment of four priests that have served in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. One of them is a former vicar for clergy who’s being accused of participating in an assignment of a priest who had a previous accusation of sexual abuse against him. So we’ll have a trial probably in the last three months [of 2012], and you can imagine what that does to the psyche of a diocese where we’re in the headlines of the newspapers every day for three months.
All of this is coming together at the same time, and there’s a new bishop who’s responsible for making decisions and leading us through this difficult time. … [My letter] was, therefore, to say to people: Be prepared because things are going to be tough, and they’re going to get worse for us for a while before they’re going to get better.
In the answer to the first question, Archbishop Chaput hits the three major “bad news” themes mentioned in his pastoral letter—the sex abuse situation, school closings, and parish closings. There is interesting new detail added about all three of these, including information in the follow-up question.
On the subject of sex abuse—in his second answer—he gives a little more background about the current state of affairs, including the trial expected next year. This is helpful, especially for those who haven’t been following the Philadelphia situation closely.
On the subject of school closings he identifies a key cause of the financial problems that have led to the present situation. This cause is not, as some have suggested, a lack of funds due to settlement of sex abuse cases. It’s natural to wonder about that in many places, but diocesan finances are more complex than many realize. It’s not as if all the money collected in every parish goes into a giant diocesan slush fund that can be disbursed however the archbishop wishes. In fact, as anyone who’s experienced the non-profit world knows, charitable funds that are received often represent what is known as designated giving, which means that *by law* they can only be used for particular purposes specified by the donors. Designated giving, contracts, loans, and a host of other considerations prevent funds from simply being disbursed at whim. At least, they do so in many cases. That’s not to say there haven’t been dioceses that have suffered from financial mismanagement and the improper use of funds. There certainly have.
But the cause that Archbishop Chaput names in the interview is certainly a plausible one: the retreat of women and men religious from the Catholic education scene and the consequent effect on the faculty. Women and men religious, living communally and being under vows of poverty and being able to solicit donations for their order and even subsidizing Catholic schools directly, were able to operate for substantially less money than a faculty composed of lay people supporting families and trying to maintain a place in the middle class (i.e., avoid poverty). The exodus of religious from faculty and the consequent influx of ordinary lay people is certainly going to affect how much it costs to educate a student, and as tuition rises it can lead to a decrease in the number of students: a vicious cycle.
I don’t know how the finances of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia are structured or how specifically the schools might be affected by legal settlements, but Archbishop Chaput is certainly right that the change in the composition of the school workforce is going to impact the economics of the situation in a significant way.
On the subject of parish mergers he also mentions a factor not involving the sex abuse scandal: declining attendance at ethnic parishes.
It’s quite true that there has been a falloff in attendance since many East Coast parishes were built. People can debate the extent to which that is due to cultural forces and the extent to which it is due to pastoral failures on the part of Church leadership (both are undoubtedly a part of it), but its a fact nonetheless.
It’s also true that in many cities on the East Coast there were multiple ethnic parishes established for different types of immigrants. Thus in a single area there might be a parish for Irish immigrants, a parish for Italian immigrants, a parish for German immigrants, a parish for Polish immigrants. With declining attendance—for whatever combination of reasons—maintaining that many parishes to serve a single area, whose religious composition also may well have changed, may just not make sense.
And there’s another factor contributing to that phenomenon: the priest shortage. The Archbishop touches on this when he mentions his concern about the number of seminarians in the archdiocese. This is something not mentioned in the pastoral letter, and it is handled with his characteristic polite frankness. Without laying blame for the problem, he frankly acknowledges substantial room for improvement, citing the example of his prior diocese and suggesting that that his current one might reasonably have five times as many seminarians as it does.
Chaput’s polite frankness is also on display elsewhere in the interview, as when he remarks that a particular change in the way ad limina visits (those are the periodic visits bishops make to Rome to meet with the pope and officials of the Roman curia) struck him as “wasn’t a good idea,” though he finds value in the way the situation has worked out.
I encourage you to read the piece simply for the look at how ad limina visits are conducted. Most people are unaware of this, and it’s an interesting look in how the world of the Vatican works.
Archbishop Chaput is also asked about politics, a subject he is imminently qualified to speak on as the author of a book on faith and politics.
I was a little surprised, knowing Archbishop Chaput’s pro-life commitments, that the life issues didn’t get mentioned in the interview. (Economics, business ethics, and religious freedom did.) I wouldn’t read too much into that, though, because interviews can often take unexpected turns and it can be difficult for both interviewer and interviewee to get back to subjects they meant to mention.
Click here to read the interview with Archbishop Chaput.
And click here to read my prior discussion of the pastoral letter.
Also, here is Joan Frawley Desmond’s piece Church Closings: Is Bigger Better?
What do you think?
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The “life issues” should be a no-brainer to people that profess to be Catholic. I propose that one underutilized resource may be “catechesis”. I’m not aware of any diocese or parish that could not use that.
We have some very beautiful large ethnic Churches in Philly. And it’s true, there can be four massive Catholic Church buildings within four blocks. In my old neighborhood, my parish was less than three blocks from the Polish Ethnic parish. The two already merged schools (using the Polish parish’s facilities) and I rather expect my old parish will soon be merged with the larger Polish parish. It’s very sad, but I understand.
It is sad that we are experiencing this lag in vocations. We have to focus on how to build our religious orders up again. There is so much to choose from in the secular world and that makes the vocation/career decision more difficult for our young people.
Youth Ministry and Family Ministry is one vital aspect in introducing and fostering youth, teens and their families experiences that will lead them to deepen their faith lives, teach them servant-leadership in their parish and community and the possibly of awareness in acknowledging a call to a religious vocation. I work in Youth Ministry and I am having a difficult time finding a pastor that will hire me. They say can’t afford to hire a ym and that it isn’t in their budget (even though they say they are impressed with my experience). I am willing to fundraise to pay for my part-time employment! Pastors and parishioners have to open their minds and hearts to see and share the vision and encourage people work in the field of youth ministry.
There is so much youth and teens want to be involved in (more than CYO sports) and is meant to include all youth whether they are home-schooled, Catholic or Public schooled. By doing so, their lives and the lives of those they encounter can be transformed. I believe that youth and family ministry parish programs can be a step in the right direction in our search for increased vocations.
First off—-I totally support my Archbishop. I think his points are on the mark and steps need to be taken.
HOWEVER, to say that the financial situation that faces the Diocese and the decisions that have to be made are not or will not be affected by the “scandal’ can’t be completely accurate—perhaps these are more Jimmy’s words than the Archbishop’s. How could it not hurt the finances of the Diocese? If millions are needed to pay for the defense and possible lawsuits/fines/civil suits/settlements, etc., it is only logical to realize that the millions could have been used elsewhere if they weren’t needed for these reasons.
Again, I support the Archbishop, but I also question why this “kick in the gut” had to come during the middle of Advent—a blessed and cherished season of the Church year and on the heels of the biggest liturgical change in 40 years that the parishes are still getting used to. I had already read the letter on this blog (not sure why Jimmy wanted to print this before the letter was officially read to the people it affects most) before it was read in church on Sunday but, even having done that, I wasn’t prepared for how it would feel hearing it from one of our Priests during the middle of the Holy season. Could this not have waited until after Christmas? Did we need the bees nest to be swatted while we are in the middle of Advent? No, it wouldn’t have been easier to hear it in three more weeks—but perhaps it would have been nice to not have to “worry” about where my children will go to school in the future, explaining it to them if the question arises during the Holy season, etc. Instead, we were wished a blessed Advent (and I appreciate that) just after getting this very sobering news that could have waited a few more weeks. I think it could have been handled in a better manner. Of course, there is no good time for bad news—but some times are better than others.
May God bless our fine, new Archbishop—and may God bless and protect our Diocese.
I lived in Denver when Archbishop Chaput was heading that archdiocese. If anyone can bring about positive and necessary changes and do them in the absolute best way, it is he. Philadelphia is extremely blessed to have him! I will pray for all of you.
We must ask this question: What would happen if 100% of Catholics attended Mass and truly practiced their faith? That would solve every problem because, then, we would have vocations, the churches would be full, the schools would be full, and there would be plenty of money.
Then why doesn’t the diocese focus on trying to get every Catholic back to the practice of their faith? This really seems to be a no-brainer!
Priests are called to be “fishers of men”, not “aquarium watchers”. They are supposed to go out and evangelize. The Church was designed to grow, not shrink. Why don’t they utilize Divine Mercy Sunday and the plenary indulgence to attract Easter-only and fallen-away Catholics? The Church has within herself the mechanisms for healing. That mechanism is Divine Mercy Sunday. When are bishops and priests going to wake up to this???
I support this Archbishop completely….he is rare and very dedicated to his Lord and Savior. When Catholics start using Natural Family Planning or nothing at all (!) then the revival of the True Faith will take place.
Other Christians as well.
More children in the womb mean more children in schools, parishes and seminaries…..it is a one-to-one correspondence something 6-year-olds learn or not.
I lived in N. CA a nd read one of the then-Bisho Chaput’s speeches. See an email of his, I emailed him with a question of clarification on one of his points. Within 2 minutes, I received a reply!!! I was stunned!!
The only reason I decided NOT to move to Denver, CO, where he was Bishop was the extremely large smog that covered the city….a real tragedy of bad air..not as bad as spiritual sickness, however. Instead I moved to St. Louis, MO, a city with lots and lots and lots of seminarians!!! Praise God!
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
I totally support our new Archbishop. Nevertheless, I am one of the Philly faithful who is simply tired of bad news, demoralized, and frankly, knowing how the Inquirer is going to spin all of this, embarrassed. Tough times ahead? They’ve been tough for like a decade.
The only people who do not see tough times in this article are those who do not care about our Lord and Savior….Tough times make for tough people…tough Christians and touch Catholics.
Tough times are relative depending on one’s circumstances. To a mom in Sudan who fled her home, leaving her little one on the bed asleep as she fled the people attacking her village.
touch times are relative depending on one’s circumstances. No fresh, clean water so people die of loose bowels, typhoid and dissentery. Years and years or the UN being in countries, one might think that clean water would be the first requirement. Some countries lack antibiotics and other simple healing medicines. BUT, their shelves are full of condoms and other contraceptives.
Nigeria just voted a LAW that says marriage is between a man and woman only. The UK has repeatedly told them the UK will send no aid until they grant the sexually deviants the right to marriage…whatever that means!!
The same sexually deviants who want to teach our children that they should ‘play with one another’ in ways I did not when I was younger.
Tough times….I do not know tough times…I have a job, pay all my bills, rent my apartment and have freedom of travel and speech and a right to gather with my friends…...how tough is that…not very….I thought you would say that!
Truly grateful Patricia in St. Louis, MO
@Alan Held, Advent is a penitential season, and as such it is quite appropriate for us to face our deepest wound. As Pope Benedict XVI points out in “Light of the World”, the priest scandal came out largely during the Year of the Priest. It was a painful, but necessary catalyst to catharsis, and knowing that God works all things to good, I’m sure that God will take this too and use it to bring about something beautiful.
Super small point: His Grace is eminently qualified… Christmas is imminent. :-)
Cephas—I understand your words—however, as Maria has stated just above you, we in the Philadelphia Diocese have been facing this wound for a very long time. Having the new wound of announcing that so many schools will be closing and parishes as well may not have been best brought up so prominently during these weeks. We all know these possibilities exist—-we’ve been going through it for some time. Is it necessary to have young students hearing that their schools may be closing in these days or could it have waited a few weeks? The changes are coming—we all know that and I respect that. As far as the news coming during the penitential season—as was stated during the article, if the closings and financial troubles are not due to the scandal, what penance should the children and parishioners, who have NO culpability in this scandal, be asked to show contrition for? Yes, we are one Church, one Faith and One Baptism—-but we are also not ALL responsible for what has happened.
I propose as others before me have done, to declare a Year of the Pew for the Catholics to come back to their Faith….to follow the CHurch in all its pronouncements….from womb (contraception) to tomb (encouraging death in the sick and elderly).
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Archbishop Chaput, you reap what you sow. Your books push the Democrat agenda in this country. You uphold decisions made by immoral politicians, such as the Cuomo’s. You actively profess to be pro-life, yet you support the abortion cause by supporting liberalism. It’s time for you to start denouncing liberalism, socialism, communism and all ideologies, religious and political, that tear down our Church. You have a clear record of this as you have written by your own hand.
Before anyone comes back and starts disagreeing with me, go read his books first. Compare Archbishop Chaput’s readings to that of Cardinal Ratzinger. You will quickly realize a very wide dichotomy between these two men.
I’ll say it again, as I have in the past, I feel for you Philadelphia. Archbishop Chaput is going to vote abortion (democrat, liberal, communist ... you pick the title) and you’re not going to see a turn around in your diocese for many years to come. Just look at the explosive liberal expansion and the rampant dislike for the Catholics in Denver, CO. Even Tim Tebow can’t catch a break and he’s not even Catholic. His own team, from the coaches to John Elway himself, denounce Christianity. This ubiquitous attitude in the Denver community is largely based on the poor decisions and support from, the Catholic community. As the leader of that community, Archbishop Chaput failed Denver and Catholicism.
This is a Long overdue letter. In Ct.areas such as Waterbury, Naugatuck,Bpt. etc.., there are many ethnic parishes within blocks of one another all with decliningnumbers of people going there on a weekly basis . Many of the ethnic immigrant groups who built these churches have moved out to the distant suburbs and no longer go to these urban churches. They could be turned in Latin Mass parishes or congregations of former Lutheran or Anglican-Episipalians who have left their wayward Protestant liberal sects to rejoin the Catholic faith.
Where are your articles on Cardinal O’Malley’s STUNNING announcement that he’s collectivising Boston’s 290 parishes into 125 “collaboratives”?
http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/6cd36b680a254181b83b95b5c137c7ae/MA—Archdiocese-Reshuffle/
I have always thought that it was unconscionable to make The Catholic Church pay for the sins and crimes of those openly defying its doctrines and disciplines. That is akin to a parents having to pay for the sins of their children. That forces parishioners to subsidize sin and corruption. I am so glad we have an omniscient God who knows the truth and will mete out judgment for those who malign the Catholic Church. Make no mistake – it is being seriously maligned.
The tragedy that most needs our attention is the drop of belief in the Real Presence from near perfect before the council to 25 percent after the council. Ecumenism almost destroyed evangelization. Thank God a semblance of the old Mass translation has become the new Translation to try to regain the spirituality that was obviously misplaced by the council.
The amount of men In the seminary is directly related to who the bishop is ! That is why the seminary I’n St.Louis if full, Cardinal Burke was there, it filled soon after he got to St.Louis!!!
We participate “in the innocent suffering of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world” (h/t Mark Shea: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/doing_penance_for_others ). The penitential season of Advent is certainly a good time to do this a little bit more, even if it has been festering for some time. I’m sure the Church Fathers spoke more extensively of this, but I don’t have a ready reference.
Okay, since the entire Catholic Church needs to be in penance in this penitential season (which I agree with), why doesn’t the entire Catholic Church chip in to help out the Philadelphia Diocese? If this Diocese is going to suffer so financially, why don’t the other Dioceses chip in or perhaps more money to help? Obviously I’m being facetious as I am pretty sure it won’t happen—but this is a universal Church, is it not? Other Diocese have had to come to grip with this and have faced financial trials. But shouldn’t we all be helping out each other? That would show the unity among Catholics.
As it is, it looks like one Diocese and the parishioners in that Diocese are in for a very rough time ahead. We can have sympathy for them until the cows come home. But we need to reach out to them as well.
“why don’t the other Dioceses chip in or perhaps more money to help?” That’s a very valid question. Offhand, I’d guess 1) if other dioceses lent help it could appear to be an obligation, in which case the aggrieved might look to the deeper pockets of the universal Church for support, and 2) other dioceses are also facing financial difficulties. Despite what some would have you believe, the Church isn’t exactly swimming in money.
Absolutely, and I know that. But when families are being so affected in the Philadelphia area, children will have to lose out on a Catholic education (which is my primary concern), shouldn’t the Dioceses (or the people in those Dioceses) who can afford to help, do just that? Wouldn’t that be the way to show the children that this is a universal Church that can stick together through the rough times? Are we not all encouraged to give to Catholic Charities when events happen outside of our regions? Wouldn’t the Diocese of Philadelphia be considered a worthy charity in these times?
When you go closing schools because of financial difficulties (from WHEREVER the difficulties came from) and especially due to any problems outside the control of ANY of the parishioners, I shudder to think at how some of the children may be affected for years to come and what their impression of the Church will be unless others help. I don’t think we can afford to turn our backs on them.
Alan, you make good points. I hope the right people get the message.
As the commenter form Boston noted, Philadelphia is not a lone case. There needs to be a bolder vision of how parishes and seminaries run in the USA in the 21st century. For an example (and there are many, many others), parish elementary schools hemmorage cash for the reasons noted above, but if that means the kids lose a Catholic, it simply reveals our failure in a central teaching of the Church - that parents are the primary teachers of the Faith to their children! A solution directed at this obvious problem would be for “parish schools” to look and function more like community colleges filled with solid Catholic resources and focused to help Catholic parents raise Catholic kids rather than looking like nostalgic schools from the 1950s (rundown, low-budget versions of modern public schools using second-hand government textbooks void of, or contrary to, any Catholic worldview). Don’t turn your back but leverage the taxes parishioners are already paying and at least the parents can point out to the the kids that they’re getting the government’s version of the world with God squeezed out. Then the Catholic education the parish helps the parents provide actually means something Catholic. Ditto ideas for parish consolidation, vocation discernment, new media, seminaries, evangelization, social justice, and so on.
Bruce-(and as a former Kansan, I must say that I miss your beautiful State very much)—I wish I could totally understand what you’re saying but I’m a bit confused with the last few sentences. Obviously, I do believe that parents are the primary educators. However, it is also the desire by many to have their children educated in a Catholic environment (as they have been for so very long) and away from some of the influences that have infiltrated our public schools. I have had children in public schools, private schools, and Catholic Schools and I am, BY FAR, more pleased with our very well run Catholic School and the emphasis on the courses being taught via a Catholic perspective. To be honest, I “think” our school may survive the cutbacks (one can never be sure) due to it being well attended and a bit outside of the city (though still in the Diocese). I am mostly concerned, however, for the many schools that may close and where all these kids will end up getting their educations. The Philadelphia Public Schools are hopefully not the answer with their noted problems. Distances in the Diocese can be great as well for commutes. We do have a problem with support from the Parish for the Schools—-I believe donations directly to the schools are not near what they should be. It is a very large parish and the finances should not be the problem they are as this is a “well-off” area. However, as I’m sure you’re aware, the scandal has given many people a sense of being “gun-shy”, I’m sure. Donations are lower (judging from the reports in the bulletin) for the most part. I am not sure that these actions are going to bring the remedies we all seek—at least not very quickly. As the Archbishop has noted, it is going to be “rough times ahead”.
Cardinal Burke will be at the St. Francis de Sales Oratory 31 January 2012 in the evening…check their website…..he is a shot in the arm to everyone. Praise God..
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
@Alan. I think we’re in agreement. I got to ranting a bit. My basic point was to encourage the bishops to be bold and have big ideas in how they find solutions to problems. Each parish and diocese has its own dynamics and the bishop not only has the responsiblity, but the best knowledge, experience, authority, and should have the best vantage point to know what to do. I just think the “solutions” we see to these problems are just pumping energy and resources into a “redo” of the 150-year-old big idea. We’re ready for a new big idea for runnning a parish. Peace.
Bruce—-I agree with you. Each diocese has a totally different dynamic. Certainly, the needs here are great and great fixes are needed. And I’m all for new approaches—we can’t be afraid of change. However, this Diocese is badly hurting and, according to the Bishop’s letter, is in for a LOT more hurt. Radical changes are going to be very tough to initiate in a very skeptical environment. There hasn’t been a lot of time for the new Archbishop to instill a lot of trust—something that I hope truly comes about. But with the trials ahead, many schools and parishes closing, and so much apprehension, indeed, this is going to be a tough time. And indeed, peace and joy to you in the Sunflower State.
Thanks for the great post. As a small point of semantics, “imminent” means “about to take place, almost immediately” whereas “eminent” means “notable above and beyond others.” My wife comes from the south, where these words (along with “woof” and “wolf”) are often confused due to pronunciation. Judging from your cowboy hat, you may well be victim of the same verbal conflation. :-)
He talks about a lack of seminarians, but who’s fault is that. Maybe if we go back to the way things were before Vatican 2, when we had thriving seminaries, than we wouldn’t have this problem. But no!. Most Catholics today want to be like the protestants, in their worship, and attitudes. Most of the newer orders that are teaching the EF MASS, and “traditional” Roman Catholicism, like the FSSP, Institute of Christ the King, etc are thriving. The SSPX, who most modern Catholics hate, said that in France their seminaries are full, but the mainstream Catholic seminaries are empty. So if you want to make a “tough change” than bring back the priest with their altar boys, and give-up on priests, with EMHC, altar servers. Let’s become Roman Catholics again!!. Most youth want the church of their ancestors, not the post V2 church. But the pre V2 church. The church of the Saints, in worship and attitude.
Thank you, Bob. I think the Vatican is listening. A new Bishop in the Santa Rosa diocese, Bishop Vasha is making small but needed changes to ‘the way things are done around there’.
Whomever is res ponsible for the change of assigning bishops, the change has been good. My friends in that diocese are so delighted with his stance on the moral issues and outspoken way of working.
Prayer works! Patricia in St. Louis, MO
SSPX—-let’s not go overboard. I don’t think it’s true that “most modern Catholics hate” the SSPX. Most don’t really have much knowledge of the society or even care. Comparing seminaries in France with those here in the MUCH larger USA is also apples and oranges.
I also believe your statement that “most youth don’t what the post V2 church” is in error. Please site your source for such a claim.
Worship and attitude is something we all need to do and respect—and respect for the Church needs to be abundant as well. As I’ve said before, I support Archbishop Chaput (and the Holy Church)—-I would like, however, to see compassion for those who are so strongly affected by the decision ahead, to be kept in the forefront (especially our children).
As far as being a “Roman Catholic” again, let me me assure you, I am one down to my kneelers. Please don’t think that just because one may not be an SSPXer, that they aren’t Roman Catholic. We certainly are. To say that we aren’t is a “borderline insult”.
Sin has consequences; the uglier the sin the uglier the consequences ... I for one am grateful to God for that Catholics have a real grownup adult as the Apostle in charge of cleaning up the mess and for binding up the wounds in Philadelphia. Please pray for him and for all the hurting people in Philadelphia.
One final suggestion ... instead of closing a school consider consolidating schools and limiting them to the first 4 grades while insuring that a true formation in the Faith is emphasized. This would allow a broader base of participation and also light a fire for real support for “school vouchers” and a kindle a real concern for what is going on in the secular government schools by Catholics who may have ignored this critical issue in the past.
I moved from N. CA 2 1/2 year ago just to be in a high-Catholic area. I am delighted to be here. Now my whole attitude toward life and everything has changed. The Graces from a well-celebrated Mass has proved to me that the priest is so special to this Mass experience. We had a Year of the Priest. I think we need a Year of the Pew, to educate us all to go out and tell the Good News!
I moved, physically….all my belongings, my icon art business, my friends, my food allergies….....and it was one of my better decisions, along with joining the Catholic Church some 25 years ago. Thank you, God!
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
The SSPX is not going overboard. Maybe the SSPV, but not the SSPX. By the way if you could go back in a time machine, when Roman Catholic seminaries were thriving, and the church was some what respected by secular society. Then you would see practically every archdiocese, diocese, monestary, etcc. They all looked like they were from the SSPX or FSSP.
I’m sorry but in my opinion the church has failed miserably in her mission after the V2 council and happy clappy, hippy era. Most of the hierarchy today don’t have the ... to admit it, or do anything about it. Accept for some!. They all care more about not disturbing the millionaire lefties who maintain their parishes. And cave into their will. Look at the Archdiocese of Westminster right now as an example.
I wasn’t saying the SSPX is going overboard (I should have been more clear that the SSPX was only the subject I wasn’t addressing). Your post, however, goes overboard in my opinion. To say that “Most Modern Catholics hate the SSPX” is certainly WAY overboard.
No problem at this Mass. And no problem finding altar boys who “wanted” to do their duty.
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/12/you-report-pontifical-mass-in-kentucky.html
Watch this video, and listen to what Fr Cooper has to say.
http://youtu.be/xZUBUIMB8d0
I’ll stand by what I said. This video does not prove that “most modern Catholics hate the SSPX”. And you won’t find proof of that statement as it doesn’t exist.
Debating whether to “go back before V2” is like debating whether to go back before the Council of Trent. It’s a done deal. Debating how to improve upon the way we are implementing Vatican 2, now there’s something with impact! How many Catholics, even those who attend Mass regularly, even those who comment on Catholic web sites, have actually read and studied the documents of Vatican 2? It’s the most significant thing to happen to the Church in the last 100 years - shouldn’t we all read and study it to understand it? Then we can come together and move forward boldly and together. Otherwise, we’re generating a lot more heat than light. (There’s another idea for a new Bishop - require every parish to organize group to read and study the documents of Vatican II every year)
Yeah real significant. Significant in bringing down the eternal Roman Catholic Church. How many seminaries are full and why do most priests have to oversee more than one parish?. What happened to all the nuns wearing their habits. Or should I ask what happened to all the nuns. How much studying will we do before we realize that it’s implementation was a failure. 20, 50 ,100 years.
Ironic how the Eastern Orthodox churches in Russia are growing and the Patriarch of Moscow plans on building over a hundred new churches in Moscow. But in the West were closing them down. Because the west has lost the faith. Especially in Roman Catholic countries. Roman Catholic clergy have failed at their mission. All because of liberalism and SEX.
Catholic Monasteries like these ones are the ones that are attracting the youth.
https://picasaweb.google.com/ClearCreekMonastery
and
http://www.carmelitemonks.org/
I will also add the Dominicans in there as well.
Nothing that the Archdiocese of Philadelphia has to offer is attractive, except for maybe the Mercedarians.
Bob K.—-where is your faith? Bringing down the eternal Roman Catholic Church? Do you not believe Jesus’ own words concerning the Church? “The Gates of hell will not prevail against it”. It shall not be overcome. Even though it has faced tremendous battles in the past and is facing them at this moment, it will not be “brought down”.
@Bob K. I understand and share your frustration and anger at the disastrous results of the implementation of the Second Vatican Council, esp. in the USA and Europe. Do you consider the Second Vatican Council somehow invalid? Have you read the documents, esp. the dogmatic constitutions? They’re not about liberalism and sex. Do you think your examples of the number of nuns and what is “attracting the youth” are the right metrics for measuring success? Each of us decides based on our own circumstances, but it seems to me that if a person (or lots of people) leaves a religious vocation or even leave Christ’s Church because of the Vatican II changes in the liturgy and nuns wearing habits, then perhaps they were not being called by God and not catechized to begin with.
And those that stayed in took off their habits, took down the altar rails, decided to face the people, instead of the same direction, etcc. Check the statistics. When I was a youth, I was along with about 10 others, an altar boy. We had three priests, and about six nuns, who wore their habits in public. We knelt at an altar rail when we received communion “on the tongue”, and most lay women wore their mantillas. Altar boys assisted the priest, no need for a liturgical committee. and we had a decent choir. I remember holding the patten when the faithful received communion, wearing the white and red. Just like in the image I posted. That’s now all gone!. Like dust in the wind.
Now I go to a Greek Catholic Church, or Orthodox Church, which is about as close to what I remember as a youth. But still Roman Rite. And yes I do have faith. And the Greeks Catholics and Orthodox have thankfully helped me keep it.
But thankfully, as you must acknowledge, Christ Himself said that the Church was not going to be overcome.
@ Bob K. Again, I agree with your anger and frustration at the loopy implementation of the Council in the US and elsewhere in the West, esp. liturgical abuses that crept in. But consider the universal Church as well. Hearing the prayers of the Mass in your native language is powerful thing. Con-celebrating Mass is a powerful thing. And apparently replicating the beautiful European liturgy as it was in the high Middle Ages wasn’t essential to the explosive growth of the Church in Africa and Asia. Not just numbers (and the numbers are huge), but people on fire and madly in love with Jesus Christ. There were good reasons for the Council and there are good reasons for Catholics today to take up the challenges and teachings presented in its documents. We shouldn’t look back to the past with longing nor look ahead to the future in fear. Christ is in our midst; a new springtime awaits! Let’s head out into the deep and lower our nets for a catch. Read the end of the book; Love wins!
So if the seminaries were full, and Churches were growing. Give me the good reasons. Apart from appeasing protestants. As Angelo Bugnini did, by changing the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, Gregorian Chant, etc.. .Maybe it was good for those going to Woodstock, but not as time went on. Look at your sexual abuse cases. Many of them started after the sixties. The Mass could have been put into the vernacular, and the rest left alone. But no, they went ahead and changed it entirely. And my generation and future generations suffer for it. Because of the agenda of many of todays Bishops and those under them. This isn’t the same church that St Dominic and St Francis knew. Every Mass they celebrated or were apart of was like the EF Mass. Not todays OF Mass, teen masses or techno Masses. And they didn’t celebrate with altar girls, EMHC, and guitar music with bongos. When they revised, with what is today the Third edition. They should have just taken the 1962 missal, along with all it’s rubrics, and put it into the vernacular. Instead of retranslating Angelo Bugnini’s Missal. You agree with me Bruce, but not a thing is being done about it here in Philadelphia. Sure a few EF Masses here and there at odd ball times. Every parish should be trying their hardest to reclaim their Roman Catholic “identity”, and learning and participating in the EF Mass is part of our identity, like it was with the Saints I mentioned. and the prayer of St Michael should be mandated after every Mass in the OF, like it was meant to be by a previous pope, along with several other prayers. But I guess Angelo Bugnini’s authority was greater than a Pope. I’m done ranting! enjoy your Mass at Christmas.
Bob K. If I might make a comment on what you said…..about there being just a few of the Latin Masses in your area.
I moved from N. CA to St. Louis, MO to experience the Latin Mass. I refuse to move again! You have the Holy Father on your side! The bad news is someone has to get the ball rolling. Ecclesia Dei (sp) is a group who can give you some help in getting the Latin Mass in your area…..http://www.ecclesiadei.org/Suggestions.htm everything you will need to get started is right here on this website.
Another avenue is to contact people who are doing the Latin Mass…Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest…either their website and ask one of their priests….They would be happy to give you someone to help you…plus the practical ways to get it started.
In the meantime, meet with others who want the Latin Mass and discuss ways to make it happen. Don’t wait…..you see the need for it and the time to strike the fire is today, this week, this year…..
I look forward to hearing on this blog your work…
In Christ, Patricia
A Bob K. Reasons for the Council: 1. To obey the Holy Spirit. Pope John XXIII said he was called by the HS to call a council. JPII called Vatican II “the seminary of the HS.” 2. To preach the Gospel and Teach the Faith. Obvious, since that was what the pope said was the reason, but often ignored. John XXIII “the deposit of the faith should be guarded and taught more efficaciously.” 3. Continue the work of Vatican I – the first Vatican council was called to address dogma, Church discipline, the eastern Churches, missions, and the political/social order; but it was interrupted by the Franco-Prussian war. I’m sure there are more reasons, such as clericalism, challenges and opportunities from WWII and the Cold War, etc.
@ Bob K. Reasons for the Council: 1. To obey the Holy Spirit. Pope John XXIII said he was called by the HS to call a council. JPII called Vatican II “the seminary of the HS.” 2. To preach the Gospel and teach the Faith. Obvious, since that was what the pope said was the reason, but often ignored. John XXIII “the deposit of the faith should be guarded and taught more efficaciously.” 3. Continue the work of Vatican I. The first Vatican council was called to address dogma, Church discipline, the eastern Churches, missions, and the political/social order; but it was interrupted by the Franco-Prussian war. I’m sure there are more reasons, such as clericalism, challenges and opportunities from WWII and the Cold War, etc.
If ever there is to be a pope who comes from the U.S., Archbishop Chaput has always struck me as a good man for the office some day. Regardless of where our Lord puts him, God bless him with a double-portion of His Spirit.
Regarding parish closings: One day thirty or so years ago, I went to the local parish church for my customary visit to Jesus in the tabernacle, when, lo and behold, the door was locked. So here’s a chicken and egg question: Which came first, Catholics stopped making visits, so they locked the door, or they locked the door, and Catholics stopped making visits? Tough one, huh? Parish closures are never a good sign. One very often overlooked fact in the Gospels is that Jesus walked around some towns in Palestine. Woe to any clergy, religious, or laity who cause Jesus to walk around their town!
Yes, people move from one area to another, causing fewer people in a parish…..given that….I want to comment on a topic I have never, never heard mentioned except once…......The previous bishop of the Santa Rosa Diocese (Bishop Walsh) visited a parish that was lacking a priest.One or the members of the parish asked when they might expect the replacement. The bishop replied, your parish has not provided a seminarian ever to this diocese…no you will not get a replacement!
Catholics fornicate, contracept and have abortions in about the same numbers as non-Catholics (from a recent talk at the Franciscan University of Stubenville). The short talk was in relationship to the Holy Father’s call for a New Evangelization. The way to do this is for Catholics to stop fornicating, contracepting and having abortions…..become holy and people will once again be drawn to the Catholic Faith. That was the gist of his talk.
Is it any wonder the Bishop spoke these words! If we look like everyone else, how ever will people tell we are Catholics!
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Archhbishop Chaput makes an important point about the decline of religious communities and the increase in lay teachers who (fairly) wish to avoid committing their families to poverty. However, the vicious circle of increased tuition and fewer students is not a necessary circle. As the Catholic population increased in wealth, we did not actually increase substantially in giving. Our middle class and wealthy Catholics should be donating to subsidize Catholic education—not just for Catholics, either, but esepecially for the poor who are not all Catholic. Only when our schools and our faith are about more than just “us” will God bless our work as more than getting by ... it will be actual mission to the world.
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