Jimmy, can you explain something? [Catechism] 528 “The Epiphany is the manifestation of Jesus as Messiah of Israel, Son of God and Saviour of the world ... In the magi, representatives of the neighbouring pagan religions, the Gospel sees the first-fruits of th528e nations, who welcome the good news of salvation through the Incarnation”
I was taught that the first-fruits of the nations (Gentiles) came in with Cornelius, recorded in Acts ch. 10. “While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. And the faithful of the circumcision, who came with Peter, were astonished for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also.” Isn’t #528 running ahead of Holy Spirit?

Also, you write, “The magi’s coming to Jerusalem in order to pay homage to the king of the Jews shows that they seek in Israel, in the messianic light of the star of David, the one who will be king of the nations.” Again, I was taught that the Magi intended to go to Bethlehem, but were ignorant of Micah 5, as was the non-Jew Herod. Therefore they ended up in Jerusalem, were “helped” by Herod’s scribes, and went on to the proper place. In the meantime there was horrendous ‘collateral damage’, as Herod’s flacks might have put it. And the shepherds went to the right place, at the right time, for the right reason, by getting their information straight from a messenger of God. Did I miss something?

“If you read the writings of the Church Fathers, you do not find those who assign Christmas to December 25th saying things like, “Let’s put Jesus’ birthday here so we can subvert a pagan holiday.”

But you forget: If there is no evidence for something, that proves that the evidence was suppressed by the oppressive patriarchal triumphalist conspiracy.

Thank you for posting this, Jimmy. I’m glad you dispelled atheists’ myths about Christmas.

Thanks brother for the good infomations,,

Just one thing you could of added, which is where did the idea of the nativity come from and from whom. Of course St. Francis of Assisi.  peace!

i suppose the 3 magi could be seen as ‘firstfruits’, sort of, but cornelius ‘knew’(?) who he was about to follow, whereas the magi simply entered the vineyard that had just bloomed…but as they offered their golden profits, herbs and spices,basically their ‘magi-cal’lifestyle they offered up their ‘resources’ for a part in the kingdom of the newborn king; to me that is the wisest thing of all…

Jimmy, can I ask your opinion on this?
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“Saint Luke reports that Zacharias served in the “course of Abias” (Lk 1:5) which Scripture records as the eighth course among the twenty-four priestly courses (see Neh 12:17). Each course served one week in the temple for two times each year. The course of Abias served during the eighth week and the thirty-second week in the annual cycle.* However, when did the cycle of courses begin?
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By consulting the scholarly research of Friedlieb (Leben J. Christi des Erlösers, Münster, 1887, p. 312), we discover that the first priestly course of Jojarib was on duty during the destruction of Jerusalem on the 9th day of the Jewish month of Av. Thus the priestly course of Jojarib was on duty during the second week of Av. This means that without a doubt, the priestly course of Abias (the course of Saint Zacharias) was serving during the second week of the Jewish month of Tishri - the very week of the Day of Atonement on the 10th of Tishri. In our calendar, the Day of Atonement on 10th Tishri lands anywhere from September 22 to October 8.
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Zacharias and Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist immediately after Zacharias served his course. This entails that Saint John the Baptist would have been conceived somewhere around the end of September, placing John’s birth at the end of June, confirming the Catholic Church’s celebration of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24.
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The rest of the dating is rather simple. We read that just after the Immaculate Virgin Mary conceived Christ, she went to visit her cousin Elizabeth who was six months pregnant with John the Baptist. This means that John the Baptist was six months older that our Lord Jesus Christ (Lk 1:24-27, 36). Add six months to June 24 and it reveals December 24-25 as the birthday of Christ. Subtract nine months from December 25 and it reveals that the annunciation was March 25. All the dates match up perfectly.”
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http://cantuar.blogspot.in/2011/12/dec-25-biblical-argument-of-birth-of.html

I agree with Nishant that the dates, as he writes, all match up…the Annunciation, the birth of John the Baptist, Christmas Day…etc.

Great Post!  Have a blessed Christmas all!

Great post! I actually just used one the quote you gave from St. Hippolytus in your Secret Info Club to talk to a fundamentalist about the origins of Christmas.

To claim Christmas is not a pagan custom is to ignore ancient history and your O.T.Read Jer.10:2-5 there is no doubt this was a Christmas before the Roman Catholic church adopted,copied,counterfeited it to CHRIST-MASS.It plainly tells you “LEARN NOT THE WAY OF THE HEATHEN”(pagans)A form of what is now called Christmas dates all the way back to Nimrod.Nowhere does your N.T.tell you to observe Jesus birth.But Christmas is not near the only thing the Roman Catholic church adopted,copied,counterfeited from pagan Sun God worship,Easter(named after the pagan female sun god Ishtar) is straight out of paganism also.Read Ezekiel 8:14-16 and notice they faced the East and worshipped the Sun,this is nothing but what was later called an Easter Sunrise service counterfeited to Jesus.
If you investigate and research ancient writings and pagan customs very hard you will also find the pagans had a babtism,communion,dying and resurrecting Savior sun gods,the cross and many other christian customs long before christianity.Christianity did not defeat paganism it became the new paganism.Even the Pope’s attire is from paganism.I challenge you to send me contemporary proof and evidence that Jesus ever existed as a flesh and blood earth walking person.Yes there were plenty of Jesus’es(people named named Jesus)in the first century but the Jesus i want you to prove is the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus.
Second century church fathers and secular writings do not prove a historical Jesus,because Paul began christianity by the time of the second century all kinds of things were added to the Jesus tale.Jesus is a sun god developed by the Roman Empire and later the Roman Catholic church and christianity made a state religion by Constantine in 325 A.D.There is not one iota,not one ounce of reliable proof that the 4 gospel Jesus ever lived.I realize i am hitting hard on your catholic belief but remember i am hitting just as hard on Protestants and other christian denominations.
                In Real Truth,Not Malice,
                  Jay Osborne

I was going to mention the date of the Annunciation being 9 months before the Nativity, but it looks like another reader’s already pointed that out.
Do sceptics not accept the timing of the Annunciation as is stated in scripture, too?

jay osborne: oh sure, no malice intended-during this christmas season you casualy drop a declaration of"counterfeit"adoption by our church. And silly us-including many of us with post graduate work in the sciences, etc, have so blightly been hooked into sun god worship. You quote the OT, are you jewish? You certainly can’t think we follow the practices of the heathen pagans, do you? The heathens worshiped nature and invented gods…catholics do not(nor do our protestant siblings)...we do , of course, wear wedding rings, just like the heathen, do you? we also go to work on a day called monday(Moonday) do you? and we welcome the summer in july(Julius) do you? and…and ..and ..this is so silly it’s absurd to think an adult continues to hurl misrepresentations at us ...even at christmas time…in truth, not malice..richT

Hi RichT,
No i am not Jewish,for 32 years i was a mis-informed christian like you.It’s not my fault your own Bible in Jer.10:2-5 condemns and says learn not the way of the heathen,it’s not my fault the early Romam Catholic church chose Dec.25th.to worship the supposed birth of Jesus which you actually have no idea when he was supposedly born and neither does Matthew or Luke know his supposed birthdate or death date and they give dates over 10 years apart when he was born.Post graduate work or biblical claimed historians who research with a biblical(N.T.)biased mind control are worthless as far as finding reliable truth.Before picking on me you should learn to refute me with proof not nit picking.Where is the contemporary proof Jesus ever existed as a flesh and blood person?If you would pay closer attention to your N.T.you’d know you are hooked on Sun God worship.
Your N.T.claims Jesus is “The Light of the World"Well what is the light of the world?Of course the light of the world is the sun.Most christians think Mal.4:2 is about Jesus,notice there it is spelled “SUN” not “SON”.Your N.T.says Jesus walked on water if you look out over a body of water when the sun is shinning the reflection of the sun does seem to walk on water.Also your N.T.over and over says walk in the light,it says you fight against the powers of darkness,this is the sun(son)fighting against the darkness of night.Christianity has waited 2000 years for it’s Jesus(the son,Sun)to return he hasn’t and never will except when the sun comes up each morning.You are correct the days of the week and months are named after pagan gods and so is almost everything linked to pagan sun gods,the sun is nature and that is exactly what you and christianity worship.Read PS.84:11 KJV there it plainly says the O.T.GOD is the SUN also.I do not hurl misrepresentations i hurl quotations from your own Bible.Start researching with an open un-biased thinking mind.
                  In Real Truth,
                      Jay Osborne

You have not posted my comment sent yesterday answering RighT.WHY NOT?
                    JAY

The comment i made yesterday to richT above never posted,it did say an error occured when i sent it,so here again is my answer to richT above.RichT if you want to refute me do it with proof and evidence not nit picking like you did above.No i am not Jewish,i am a person who spent 32 years in christianity being mis-informed just like you are now.It’s not my fault that writen in Jer.10:2-5 it condemns the observanmce of what later the Catholic church named CHRIST-MASS.It’s not my fault that the Catholic church decided to adopt,counterfeit Jesus birth to a pagan custom observed on Dec.25th.The fact is i know why they did it,it was easier to draw the pagans into christianity by observing their customs and adopting them to Jesus.
But that does not stop them from being pagan customs,you can call a Zebra a horse but it’s stripes show it is still a Zebra.Post graduate work in science or a biased supposed biblical scholar does not prove you are correct it means you are biblically mind controlled,biblically brainwashed w/blind faith and do not look closely at the overall evidence.The Sun you worship is nature and yes Jesus is an invented god just like you mention above.You are correct the week days and months are named after ancient mythical sun gods and so are many other things in our society.There is proof right in your N.T.that Jesus is a sun god.The N.T.says Jesus is “THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD”.What is the light of the world?Of course the sun is the light of the world.It says Jesus walked on water,if you watch the sun’s reflection on a clear day on a body of water it does seem to walk on water.Your N.T.says you wrestle with the powers of darkness this is the sun fighting against the darkness of night.December 25th.is the winter equinox to ancient people the sun seemed to die on Dec.22nd.(shortest day of the year)then by the 25th.of Dec.it moved back north and days began to get longer,so there you have the sun dying on the 22nd.and resurrecting(born again)on the 25th.That’s 3 days and 3 nights,just like Jesus was claimed in Matt.12:40 was dead 3 days and 3 nights then rose from the dead.Of course christianity ignores Matt.12:40 and claims Jesus was crucified on Good Friday and arose on Sunday morning which is actually one full day and two nights,but you had to do that in order to get another pagan day into the mix which is Good Friday,it is another pagan day.
Read PS.84:11 KJV there you can see the O.T.God is plainly called the sun (sun god)also.Most christians claim Mal.4:2 is about Jesus,notice there the spelling is SUN.It’s very easy to change the spelling from “SUN OF GOD” to “SON OF GOD"which is just what the writers of the N.T.did.richT if you want to refute me send evidence not nit picking.I still wait for contemporary evidence for the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus?
                      In Real Truth,
                        Jay Osborne

Again you have flagged my message,this shows how dishonest you are,this is two times you have pulled this dishonest B.S.richT ABOVE CAN SAY WHAT HE WANTS TO BUT YOU WON’T LET ME ANSWER.

                      JAY

Jay, I agree with most of what you say but advise you to be calm.  They will never agree and never come up with any materials that will refute your argument because they refuse to accept facts and truth. 

What I find intellectually dishonest here is “Christmas is not a pagan holiday”. Really?  If this is a celebration of the Christ’s birth, why are parish altars adorned with pagan solstice celebratory decorations?  Pine boughs and decorated, lighted trees. All pagan symbols borrowed by the church to appeal the now secularists. Are there even pine trees in Jerusalem and did these trees have candles on them the night he was born?? 

A few years ago, I attended my brother-in-laws evangelical church and was appalled by the glitz and glamor used to keep people “entertained” during the service.  This is exactly what the Catholic Church had to do to convert the pagans.  The history is there Jimmy, all one need do is read it..

A.  Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25.  During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the week long celebration.  The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.”  Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week.  At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.
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B.  The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time.  In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).
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C.  In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it.  Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.
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D.  The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.
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E.    Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia.  As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.”  The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.
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F.    The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that “the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.” Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.  However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.
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G.  Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city.  An eyewitness account reports, “Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators.  They ran… amid Rome’s taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.”
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H.    As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18th and 19th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto in Rome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in 1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, “It is not opportune to make any innovation.” On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country.  In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped.  Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed.
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Know your Catholic history!

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Thanks Stan for your encourgment.I probably do come across a little strong but so do those claiming Christmas is not pagan come on strong.And you are correct that parish altars are adorned with pagan solstice decorations.The fact is even Pergatory and the belief in hell also originated from paganism.
                    Jay

But…. But…. I have been told again and again that evergreens and men in red suits and CANDY CANES are “Christian symbols” which we are nefariously Imposing On Everybody.

As usual, that attacks on Christianity (I refused to dignify them by calling them “arguments”) are not just conflicting, but directly contradict each other.

  How about you Christian-baiters making up your minds WHAT you are attacking us for before expecting us to take you seriously?

Hi Will,
I can’t believe you think men in red suits and candy canes are christian symbols.Do you think Jesus 2000 years ago was born in a manager in a little red suit and sucking on candy canes?The evergreen tree is also from paganism and symboloized eternal life since the evergreen tree stays green all winter long and seems to have eternal life.I am not attacking christianity i am debating(refuting)their arguments.You need to do some investigation and research into what and why you believe what you do,don’t take any man’s word for it research and use your own mind.Nothing i wrote was contradictory i plainly said Christmas,Easter,babtism,communion,dying and resurrecting Savior sun gods,the cross and more came from paganism,all you have to do is use your computer and librarys and research to find if that is true.Actually christians are baiting you,research and you will find out who is baiting who.
                In Real Truth,
                  Jay Osborne

“I can’t believe you think men in red suits and candy canes are christian symbols.”

I can’t believe you think that is what I said.

Come back when you learn to read.

hi jay and stan,
great to see you both still entertaining us at this Catholic blog-really, thanks for being open enough to allow yourselves the chance to hear the good news. i’d like to remind you there is no winter equinox-and it’s PURGATORY, not pergatory-please indulge the nitpicking-
i asked if you were jewish because you use the OT as a reference, who else would accept the OT but not the new? mormons, JW’s, muslims, all accept the old AND believe in the historical Jesus-so you aren’t in those camps-so i wonder what you follow? not common sense to be sure-after all you understand nuclear fusion ,don’t you? where o where in the process or the ensuing electromagnetic spectrum might the millions and millions of us feel the animated god to be worshiped?  And just who are these power hungry evil men that run the church? would nietzsche really acknowledge that their desire is to…sleep amongst lepers, spiders, in ghettos,  really, please read all that history you’re fond of…

Hi richT,
You should learn to captlize first names before you nit pick me on the spelling of Purgatory and remind me not to get education from where ever you were taught there is no winter equinox you must have got that from the same place (N.T.)where it claims there was a sun eclipse(sun darkening) at Passover time which can not occur at that time of year.Your N.T.is based on the O.T.however if you read in the O.T.the claimed Messiah prophecies fulfilled by Jesus you can easily find they were never Messiah(or any other prophecy)prophecies to begin with.Lines and verses are pulled out of context with surrounding verses and made to seem prophecies fulfilled.
I spent 32 years of my life in christianity but finally i decided to use 1 Thess.5:21 and “PROVE ALL THINGS"it’s not my fault your Bible both O.T.& N.T.failed miseablly to be the truth.You seem to be refering to early church fathers above when you mention power hungry evil men although you are unable to clearly state your theory or reasoning tying it to me.Let me see if you can find this in early church fathers writings,there are 2 early church fathers that say your Jesus was not crucified or died at an early age,they say he lived on to be an old man and died of old age.Can you name those 2 early Catholic church fathers?Sorry i mis-spelled Purgatory after researching it i never went back to such legends,myths,fables and tales.Also try and be more clear with your statements,i don’t understand what Christmas and other pagan customs have to do with sleeping amongst lepers,spiders and ghettos.
                In Real Truth,
                    JAY

Correction:I did mis-state and get mixed up on Solstice and Equinox,Christmas time is the winter Solstice.I appologize i was in a hurry company was coming and i had other things to do.See richT i can and will apologize when i am wrong that’s a lot more than christian apologetics will do.
                  JAY

jay: thanks for the apology-though i could have done without the slap tagged on the end. my reference was to the countless persons who gave up a comfortable life in order to serve their call of faith to the living God-even though it often took them to hideous conditions. That kind of work cannot be ignored, and it would be unreasonable to assume they all just were deceived little simpletons. Of course there are great and noble jews, muslims, mormons , etc who give greatly, so i’m not implying missionary work proves Jesus is the Messiah, but it needs to be addressed as a piece of the puzzle when they themselves would tell you it is indeed because of Jesus that they take such action. Oh, by the way, is the reality of Pontius Pilate, Herod, Paul of Tarsus, etc, acceptable as ‘shreds of evidence’ that Jesus was historical? and how can you use 1Thes as proof that it is fiction!

Answer to richT above:I will begin with this quote above.(copied and pasted from above)my reference was to the countless persons who gave up a comfortable life in order to serve their call of faith to the living God-even though it often took them to hideous conditions.(unquote)I suppose i could say you also meant the claimed martyrs in the sentence above.Reliable evidence of early christian martyrdom is very scanty and comes from Catholic church tradition,and even your early church father Origen casts doubt on the church’s tradition.Origen states to a doubter of christianity these words (quote)“Those who have endured death for the sake of christianity could be easily numbered”(unquote)So that statement from Origen casts doubt on the church’s tradition of claims of apostles and other christian martyrs.All claims of martyrdom is unverifiable.

Now lets look at Pontius Pilate,Herod and Paul,there is history (or artifacts)proving Pilate and Herod,but that does not prove they did what is claimed in the 4 gospels.The claimed murders of up to 2 year olds by Herod is nowhere else in history except in Matthew,Josephus disliked Herod and wrote about many of his atrocities but knows nothing of the Slaughter of the Innocents.Which had it happened it would have been one of Josephus top condemnations of Herod.When someone writes fiction they usually base the story around some known person or known town.But think about this #1.Never would the Jews wake Pontius Pilate up in the middle of the night for a Jewish problem or Pilate may have had them crucified.#2.The Romans had the most fair legal system of that time their trials were fair and lengthy never would they have convicted Jesus or anyone else in a fly by night trial.We still use a lot of the Roman trial system in our legal courts today.

Paul is nowhere else in history except in the epistles he is claimed to have writen,claimed by the church as the writer and some of them have now been removed as writen by Paul,if Paul ever existed as a real person.Jesus,Paul,Joseph or Mary or the 12 supposed desciples are nowhere in history except church supposed history.Do you know the town of Nazareth has now been proved by honest archaeologists to have not existed in the first century?It is a town having it’s beginings in the last half of the second century and on into the third century.Without the town of Nazareth in the first century there could be no Jesus of Nazareth in the first century.
Your claim above that says “That kind of work cannot be ignored"also requires the tale to even be true.It’s got holes in it big enough to throw a cow through.
                  In Real Truth,
                        JAY

P.S.I used 1 Thess.5:21 where it says “Prove all things"to go into an investigation and research whether the Bible claims were true or false.Prove ALL things includes the Bible itself.By the way you never told me who were the 2 early church fathers who said Jesus died of old age?
                    JAY

davey and goliath?

Again you have not posted my answer to richT i sent just before the P.S.above it said error again wehen i sent i have no idea why.Maybe because i separated the subjects which most sites ask me to do.I’ll give you a little more time to post it if not i will re-answer it.richT what has David and Goliath got to do with Christmas coming from paganism?
                  JAY

come on jay-where’s your sense of humor?if you were a christian for as long as you say, then you must remember those clay heroes of television! as for the answer you’re looking for, you’ll have to provide .

okay, interesting quote by origen, but in 230 AD he didn’t have the internet and perhaps knew not of the many others who suffered…and why do you believe he said that, or anything else? same evidence for his existence as paul and the apostles, no? and why couldn’t pilate have been a fragile ego who just might have done what in fact cost him his job?.. as for herod, i don’t know that his slaughter of the innocents is missing from josephus’s history, but he murdered members of his own family, is it hard to imagine he did the other, which would parallel the killing of the firstborn in egypt at moses’ time…and again, why would paul emplore the people to search the scriptures if he’s fabricating, or impersonating a disciple of someone who never existed??all THAT seems to be terribly unreasonable…

Answer to richT:Origen was an early church father i would expect him to know what was going on in the church,to be honest with you i don’t don’t know whether Origen said that or not but that is what is writen he said.Neither do i know if he actually existed the church has commited fraud,interpolations so much one does not know what to believe as the real truth.For example there have even been additions(interpolations)in the N.T.For a few examples 1 John 5:7,Mark 16:9-20,the woman caught in adutery and much more is not in the earli
est third century manuscripts but have been added to 5th.century manuscripts,who gave authority to add stuff to a supposed Holy N.T.?I agree Herod was evil and murdered members of his own family,but it doesn’t sound right if Josephus or other historian or philosophers of the time never wrote about the Slaughter of the Innocents.Neither are the saints that supposedly rose from the dead and wandered around in the streets of Jerusalem in any history.One example is Philo born about 10 B.C.and dying about 45 A.D.he lived all the way through Jesus supposed time,he wrote extensively about the Jewish religion and happenings in Galilee right during the time Jesus was supposed to be doing miracles,crucified and resurrected from the dead but Philo knows absolutely nothing about Jesus,the saints that rose from the dead,the slaughter of the innocents,or the earthquake and sun darkening.That’s a lot not to know when writing about happenings in Galilee and the Jewish religion.
Now just a little about Paul,he was from Tarsus he says,Tarsus was a hub(strong following)of the pagan sun god Mithra don’t you think it odd that Paul(or whoever wrote it)would have been born probably near the time Jesus was supposedly born,but yet Paul knows nothing of a virgin birth,or Jesus parables,the Sermon on the mount or any of Jesus sayings,the only Jesus Paul knows is the vision he had on the road to Damascus.In fact some of Pauls sayings disagrees with what Jesus supposedly said.Paul saying search the scripture you mention above remember the only scriptures when Paul wrote was the O.T.It was along time later before the N.T.was claimed scripture.
                    JAY

Jay: happy new year -may this be the year you return to your faith. Certainly origen is a respected church father-and he speaks of the virgin birth! Who gave authority to add, delete, etc? the same authority of the OT…the appointed church as annointed by Jesus-of course if you deny Him then it’s a moot point. As for josephus, he pretty much was the newspaper, so if he didn’t hear of it, it wasn’t going to get reported.I doubt herod broadcsted his murders of the children,for fear of revolt, so understandably it stayed under the radar(it has been approximated that there may have been as few as 5 boys killed in the small town ) Philo certainly does speak of Crestus, who we know as Christ, but being a non jew was only reporting about the trouble he had caused of concern to Rome,not details of his life.  Then to say paul knows nothing of a virgin birth because he mentions it not is a bit unfair. he may have , for many reasons, chosen not to include that part of Jesus’ life, since his focus was on the cross and ressurection, and since he wrote before the gospels, he maybe didn’t know about it, not that he denied it. It seems to me that you have decided that jesus is a myth, and then find every argument produced against him to say ‘see, i told you He’s a charade forced upon us by a corrupt church”.Think back, jay, to some points of your christianity. There must have been times when you felt His presence, spoke to and heard from Him. What was that, imagination? I ,for one, know when I’m imaginimg, and when something is real. Just leave open the possiblity that christianity is true…

i want to ask jay osborne 1 question

1)the O.T is the holybook for the judaism religion.it prophesied the comming of the messiah.the prophecy was so particular.where he would be born,by who,in which family,his suffering,his death,the kind of tomb his burial would be in.even the exact year of his birth was foretold.this is the reason why during the jesus time there were so many other “jesuses”.but this jesus christ fulfilled ALL of the O.T prophecies to the letter. so how can you say he did not exist?

2)there are so many historical evidences of jesus.i will only cite one.have you ever heard of the shround of turin?

Answer to mao tse tsung:If you read this whole thread i mentioned before the writers of the 4 gospels especially Matthew pulled lines and verses out of context with surrounding verses from the O.T.  and made them seem prophecies fulfilled by Jesus.Most were never prophecies about a Messiah.Let’s look at 3 of them it would take far to long to go through the over 300 that most of christianity claims Jesus fulfilled.#1.Isa.7:14 this was never,ever a prophecy about a virgin born Jesus some 700 years later.The first problem is the Hebrew word “Almah"is mis-translated as virgin,it should have been translated young woman or maiden without regard to her being a sexual virgin.Elsewhere in the book of Isaiah when the writer actually meant a sexual virgin the writer of Isaiah used the Hebrew word “Bethulah"which does mean a sexual virgin.So we know the writer of the book of Isaiah knew the difference in the two Hebrew words.
Matthew used the Greek Septugant translation of Hebrew to come up with the word virgin.
The Greek Septugant wrongly translated the Hebrew word “Almah” into the Greek word “Parentheos"which does mean virgin,however it is a wrong translation of “Almah”.Second Isa.7:14 is pulled out of context with surrounding verses and made to stand alone,that is proved by verse 15,Jesus did come eating"Butter(or curds)and Honey.Ahaz was worried about being surrounded with armies and kinda asked for a sign from god in verse 11,what good would it do Ahaz if someone was going to have a baby born of a virgin 700 years later?If you read the whole chapter of ISAIAH 7 in context and continue on through Isa.8:8 in verse 3 of chapter 8 the young woman concieved and bare a son(same son as in Isa.7:14)then in verse 8 of chapter 8 this son was named Immanuel.Isa.7:14 was not a prophecy of a virgin born Jesus some 700 years later,it all happened in the time of Ahaz.Matthew pulled verse 14 out of context with surrounding verses and made it seem a future prophecy.

Now lets look at Micah 5:2 it was never,ever about a place the Messiah was to be born,it is also pulled out of context.In context you read Micah 5:1-6,in verse 1 it mentions troops in verse 6 it shows Assyria wasted with war,so this is about a military leader which Jesus never was.Anytime you see the words Bethlehem Ephratah(v.2) connected together it does not mean the town of Bethlehem it means the man named Bethlehem who had a clan named Ephrathites SEE RUTH 1:1-2 and other places in the O.T.where the man named Bethlehem is mentioned.Notice in Matthew 2:6 the writer of Matthew delibertly leaves out the word Ephratah that’s in Micah 5:2 to make it seem it meant the town of Bethlehem.

The writer of Matthew made a lot of screw ups he also mis-understands Zech.9:9 as a supposed prophecy and in Matt.21:5 has Jesus riding into Jerusalem straddling 2 donkeys at one time.He thinks Zech.9:9 meant 2 different donkeys when it only meant 1.Don’t you think the people had to laugh when they saw Jesus trying to ride and straddling 2 donkeys?

The family geneaology of Jesus in Matthew chapter one and Luke chapter 3 could never qualify Jesus as the Messiah,neither geneaology can connect Jesus bloodline to David or Solomon as the O.T.claimed the Messiah would come from.Why would you claim the exact year of Jesus birth was foretold,biblical scholars and historians are at odds even now as to when he was supposedly born?And there is no reliable historical evidence that Jesus ever existed as a flesh and blood person,none,ZERO.The Shroud of Turin has been proved not to date back to Jesus supposed time.
                  In Real Truth,
                          JAY

Answer to richT:Happy New Year to you also.Sorry there will be no return to faith this year or ever.Do you know the definition of faith?Faith is a belief despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.Your N.T.definition says about the same thing Heb.11:1 says “Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR,the evidence of things not seen”.Hoped for and things unseen is far from fact,it’s like your imaginary sky god that is invisable and inaudible,it matters not that some ancient people claim through myths,fables and tales that they saw him and heard him.There are also thousands of ancient sun gods ancient writers claim were human and were saw and heard.
You are disagreeing with your own N.T.when you say the church had a right to delete or add to the words of the N.T.read Rev.22:18-19 where you are not to take away or add to the N.T.No this does not just mean the book of Revelation it means your whole Bible else how could it be infallible & god inspired? I just explained to mao tse tsung above why the claimed virgin birth is a falsehood.Josephus wrote long stories about most everything he wrote about,there is no reason a Jew who was in the Jewish army during 70 A.D.would not know or write about Herod’s supposed Slaughter of the Innocents had it actually have happened.And your excuse for Philo knowing nothing about Herod’s slaughter of children,supposed saints raising from the dead,the earthquake and sun darkening,crucifixtion and Jesus raising from the dead when he was writing about the Jewish religion and happenings in Galilee is completely foolish.Philo had relatives who lived in Jerusalem that he visited often so history says and you really think he would have known nothing about the above happenings when he was writing about things that was happening right in Galilee right during the time Jesus was supposed to be doing miracles and claiming to be the Messiah.You have my sympathy if you believe that.Those things never happened that’s why Philo never wrote about it.There were also many more historians and philosophers living and writing some living in or near Jerusalem right during Jesus supposed time and they know nothing of these supposed happenings either.

And by the way you need to do some un-biased research the word “Chrestus"or Chrestos or Crestus was not a mis-spelling of Christ the Greek word Chrestus was a common word in first century A.D.and earlier and Chretus only means “GOOD"or good one and was even used for good slaves if they were good slaves.Chrestus does not mean “Anointed One"like Christus does.In 5 B.C.E.long before Christ Plato refered to the famous Greek philosopher of Athens as Socrates Chrestus.You may claim you know Chretus as Christ but you are wrong.
I thought maybe you would catch on when i mentioned Paul wass from Tarsus and that was a hub for Mithraism,the Jesus Paul wrote about could have been actually Mithra,no proof of that except some of Paul’s sayings touch on Mithraism and disagrees with some of Jesus sayings.I thought back on when i was in christianity and realized not one prayer was answered in the 32 years i was involved in christianity,it took me 8 years of my biblical research and investigation,some days researching 8-10 hours a day before i finally threw up my hands and said christianity is the biggest conspiracy ever put over on humanity,i have no intention of ever being biblically mind controlled,biblically brainwashed and blind faith ever again.
                  In Real Truth,
                        Jay

Another flag by you and a wait on posting my answer to richT.Why is that,you know i have been posting for quite awhile and the ones that try and refute me need answers.
                  JAY

osborne 2 more questions
1)if jesus did not exist then how do you explain his apostles all of them accepting to die for his gospel.if he was a myth they sure would have known and when push came to shove they would not die for someone they knew to be afraudster.by the way they were eye witneses to his passion death and resurecction.

2)your answer to the shruod of turin is not satisfactory because many scientists have carried out medical and scientific investigation and proved it to be authentic

3) there is also veronica’s veil,the house of loreto and the pilgrimage sites of the holy land

4)lastly i would like to hear from you your take on the many authentic christian miracles that have occured throughout the centuries that have strengthened christian’s faith and converted millions of pagans to christianity. iwill site a few examples

1)1917 in fatima portugal the virgin mary appeared to 3 children 6 times.the final apparation was confirmed by the now famous miracle of the sun that was witnessed by 70,000 people and reported in the athiest run press of portugal and the new york times. millions of portugees converted to christianity.

2)1531 in mexico the virgin mary “our lady of guadallupe"appeared to juan diego and left a miraculous imprint of her image in diego’s tilma(cloak).the tilma is still there today intact and has undergone numerous scientific tests and has been proven to be miraculous and authentic. as a result of this miracle 7 million(yes 7 million) pagans accepted christ and were baptised.

Answer to mao tse tsung:What you are doing is using circular reasoning you believe the gospel tales are so just because the 4 gospels claim it so.It doesn’t matter to you that there is no historical records of the claims of the 4 gospels.The 4 gospels are not historical documents they are religious works put out by the church.Do you believe the supposed Holy books of the Koran,Budhists,Hindus?They are religious works but you would call them myths,fables and tales,wouldn’t you?What makes you think only the Bible would be so?There is no reliable proof or evidence that the supposed desciples were martyred what you have is traditional claims put out by the church.
But do people die for what they believe is the truth?Remember Jim Jones and the Jonestown massacre where over 900 people commited suicide over a religious belief.Remember David Koresh and the Waco,Tx.ordeal?Remember the Heaven’s Gate people who commited suicide supposedly to meet the Hayle comet?This all happened in my lifetime and probably your lifetime,people dying for a belief is common.All those people looked up to their leader and died for his supposed biblical truth.I also know you should do a better research of the 4 gospels the gospel writers nowhere claim they were eyewitnesses to the crucifixtion or resurrection,they claim to have got the tale from someone un-named who were eyewitnesses.Remember the desciples fled in fear before the supposed crucifixtion.The 4 gospel writers are anonymous writers,no one,ZERO knows who wrote the 4 gospels.The claimed authors Matthew,Mark,Luke & John were not even attached as being the authors until 150 years after they were supposedly writen.That’s why the gospel titles say “ACCORDING TO"not writen by so and so.The only claimed eyewitnesses are after the resurrection not during the crucifixtion.
Youn haven’t done good research on Fatima or the Shroud of Turin both are proved fakes.Do you know that from after the first century and on through the 5th.and 6th.centurys the Catholic church claimed to have splinters of the cross enough if loaded on a big ship to sink the ship.As long as you believe biblical apologetic claims and church claims without researching if it’s the truth you will never know the real truth.Right on your computer there are sites that researched the Fatima tale,the Shroud of Turin tale,the James ossury tale,and all the other christian claimed tales and dis-proved them with facts & evidence not just claims.All the faith healers on T.V. including Benny Hinn have been proved fakes,show me an amputee that has his arm grown back on then i’ll believe claimed miracles.
Remember i stated i was a christian for 32 years i remember a guy who had more faith than anyone i ever have ran across his wife got sick the doctors could do nothing the whole church including me gathered around the minister anointed her with oil and we all prayed for her to be healed,she died and her husband walked out of the church the same day she died and gave completely up on christianity.I gave up on christianity because for a different reason when i retired from work with plenty of spare time i went into an almost night and day research of biblical subjects,one subject at a time they all proved to be false biblical claims.
While i was a christian i believed everything good that happened to me came from god and everything bad was from Satan i learned i was wrong and it was nothing but the ups and downs of life.All the above things you mentioned have been proved with evidence to be fakes and frauds,if you do an un-biased research you’ll find out the same thing i did.Biblical mind control,biblical brainwashing w/blind faith stops the reliable thinking process so then you begin believing Snakes(serpent)spoke the Hebrew language,an ass(donkey)spoke the Hebrew language,a burning bush talked,a virgin had a baby without sexual intercourse and all the other legends,myths,fables and tales in your Bible.
                  In Real,Truth,
                      JAY

jay i agree with you that people can die for an unworthy cause.people can die for some religious beliefs that look ridiculous to the world but which they strongly believe to be true.but that is different from accepting to die for something you know very well to be false.

i also agree with you that many of the protestant miracles are false and stagemanaged for t.v.however that is not to say that genuine miracles dont happen at all.if you have followed catholic beautification and cannonisation procedures you know that catholic miracles are aunthetic.

you are wrong about the shroud of turin.pliz look at the number of non christian and non catholic scientist that have autheticated it.be open minded.

there has been no credible opposition to fatima.ofcourse some few people here and there will always try to pour cold water on anything(alas the devil does not sleep)but anybody that is objective will think twice before calling fatima a fake. in oct 13th 1917 at 12 noon the miracle of the sun happened and was witnessed by 70,000 people.the story was carried in the secular press.the new york times newspaper of 14th oct 1917 reported it.as aresult millions of portugees pagans and athiests gave thier lives to christ.it is an historical fact.calling it fake does not change anything.

you have also not studied the miracle of the guadalupe.juan diego’s tilma that was miraculously imprinted with the image of mary in the year 1531 is still intact today and has undergone numerous scientific examinations. not even one scientist has ever found it fake. as a result of this miracle 7 million mexican pagans converted to christianity.all those people were crazy????????

as you think about that i would like to hear your take on the star of bethlehem that guided the magi and the austronomical discovery of the “constellation of the pices” by johannes kepler in the 16th century

i would like to know a few things about you jay osborne

1)do you believe in GOD or are you an athiest

2)do you believe that the old testament(jews)writings and prophets prophesied the comming of a messiah to israel

3)do yu believe in the historical fact that at one time the israelites were under the rule of babylonians,the persians,the greek and lastly the Roman empire?
(i will really appreciate your feed back)

To those above wishing to believe the Fatima tale here is a copy-paste from the internet in answer to a question asked by another person about Fatima.It is proof that this tale was allowed to be put out by the Catholic church but as usual it is a fraud claimed miracle tale.Anyone dumb enough to look at the sun is subject to blindness or seeing things non-existent.
Paste:

Dear Suzie,

As an amateur astronomer, please let me reassure you that the so-called miracle of Fatima is just an example of mass hallucination, induced by religious fervor.

I can say this with total confidence and certainty because the Sun has been carefully monitored and watched on a day-to-day basis since the the early 1800’s, decades before this 1917 event. If you go here… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunspot ...you’ll see that astronomers have been measuring and recording the daily number and movement of sunspots for a very long time. Now, please look closely at this diagram.

http://en.wikipedia….erfly_graph.gif

You’ll see that daily records of the Sun’s activity have been kept since about 1870.
To make this kind of accurate measurement astronomers use large telescopes that track the Sun across the sky as the Earth rotates. (No! They don’t look thru the ‘scopes - that would mean instant blindness! Instead, special instruments do all the recording.) Now for the big question.

So why is it that no observatory reported the Sun moving crazily on that day in 1917?

The reason is that it didn’t.

Crazy movements and weird changes of color and brightness would have been clearly recorded in dozens of observatories across the sunlight side of the world at that time. There’s no record of such things happening. There’s no mention of the Sun behaving oddly to be found in any scientific journals for that year, nor in the meticulously kept records of each observatory. Also, please consider this.
It’s not difficult to fool a person about what they think they’re seeing, but it’s impossible to fool a camera about what it records.
That’s why CCTV footage will always trump a person’s sworn testimony in a court of law. People can lie or be mistaken about something. A camera cannot. It simply records whatever’s in it’s field of view.

On that day, dozens of telescopes and cameras in many different countries would have been trained upon the Sun. They saw nothing unusual. Therefore, since cameras cannot lie or be mistaken, what the people in Portugal saw back in 1917 cannot have been anything real. Most likely it was a mass hallucination.

Another point to consider is this.
All the planets, the asteroids, the comets and clouds of interplanetary dust in our solar system orbit the most massive object that sits in the center… the Sun. The Sun’s immense gravity keeps all of these orbits constrained and in good order. If the Sun had suddenly zipped around from it’s proper place, wouldn’t the orbits of the Earth, the Moon, Mars, Venus and every other planet, etc. been totally disrupted? Human history should have finished in 1917, with the total destruction of our solar system, caused by the Sun’s erratic dance across the sky. But it didn’t, did it? Nor is there any record from any astronomical observatory in the world of any gravitational disruption to the planets, the asteroids, the comets or anything else in our solar system. I find that v-e-r-y significant.

So was there something else in the sky that could have fooled everyone there? This article seems to suggest the possibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun

Also, if you go to Google Images and put in these words…

Parry Arc
Sundog
Lowitz Arc

...you’ll see the wide variety of atmospheric displays that ice crystals in the upper air can create. All of these can be keenly observed with the human eye for long periods, without any harm - unlike directly looking at the Sun. Isn’t that what some of the Fatima witnesses said? They watched a dimmed Sun without hurting their eyes?

Finally, there’s the story of Constantine the Great http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I who was the first Roman Emporer to convert to Christianity. This link… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_hoc_signo_vinces ...describes how he (supposedly) saw a miraculous sign above the Sun. He went on to conquer and found a Christian Roman empire. Does that therefore mean it was a sign from God? Unlikely. What is more likely is that he saw an ice crystal display that he interpreted as meaningful and then this version of the events was the one written down for posterity. If a camera had been pointed up to where Constantine was looking, would it have recorded the sign of the cross and those words? Sadly, we’ll never know.

However Suzie, my point is this. People have been seeing miraculous signs associated with the Sun for centuries. Only since the invention of the camera have we had any independent, unbiased way of verifying what they think they’ve seen. Strange, don’t you think, that cameras NEVER record these religious messages? That tells me it’s all in people’s heads.

So please get the notion that there’s anything significant about Fatima out of your head. Unscrupulous, immoral people are trying to put these toxic ideas into your imagination for their own selfish ends. Please pay attention only to the hard facts, the data and the evidence. If you do that, your mind will be at rest and you’ll be at peace.

To mao tse tsung:I aent you a copy and paste that proves the Fatima tale is a fraud no doubt,it said error when i posted it but usually it’s posted later after review,so i won’t answer anything in this email about Fatima,except it’s a proven fraud.Miracles are usually claimed by only one person being alone with no verifiable proof,however there are a few exceptions.I am like Thomas Payne(or Paine)no matter what some one claims to have seen,if i have not seen it there is no proof the claim is true.You need to do a deeper research on the Shourd of Turin also it is proved a fake and only dates back to the thirteenth century.Of course the church is only going to publish supposed scientists that agree with the church thinking.I can assure you honest scientists with ancient dating systems have fully proved this shroud does not date back to Christ’s supposed time.I am not asking you to believe me do an honest open minded research,you will find there are several reasons why it could not be the shroud of a supposed Jesus.You are right i have not researched the claimed miracle of Guadalupe,but i know from investigating many others that it’s a fraud to.Nature does not go out of a natural course to create supposed miracles.And i wouldn’t brag about the NY.Times printing the Fatima story,it doesn’t have a good reputation for printing the truth.The Bethlehem star you ask about,do you believe a star or even a comet or meteor could get close enough to the ground to direct someone to a certain spot on earth?If you do you have my sympathy.Then you ask if i believe in god,if there is a god it certainly isn’t the god of the Bible,nor is the claimed god of Muslims or any other organized religion gods on this earth a real god.After all your Catholic church has now admitted that evolution is a possibility,they did that because they knew scientists are getting close to proving evolution beyond the shadow of a doubt and want to preserve the church.On your #2 above the Jews do not believe your Jesus was a Messiah,they know a supposed virgin born Jesus could not be their Messiah,they also know your Jesus claimed 2 geneaoligies in Matt.chap.1 and Luke chap.3 could never allow Jesus to be of the seed(bloodline)of David or Solomon,therefore he could never be the Jewish Messiah.Your #3.above i believe most of your #3.however the Exodus from Eygpt is a fraud.I suggest you look up and read the writings of Israel Finklestein a Jewish archaeologist who even though he is Jew he has went against both christianity and the claims of the O.T.He did that through archaeology diggings that proved most of the O.T.false.
                    In Real Truth,
                        JAY

You have 2 message answers from me to mao tse tsung sent yesterday still not posted on your blog.

Look out! Jay has dropped the ‘no malice’ tag! ... long ago. :-)

Doug,what has malice got to do with telling the truth that if you guys were not so convinced you are correct you could prove it for yourself?I am still waiting for 2 messages i sent to mao tse tsung yesterday to be posted which were flagged?
                  JAY

To Osborne jay
i have been following your arguments here and i thank mao tse tsung for enlightening you.  i would wish to say the following

ABOUT FATIMA

A miracle is something that defies nature and has no natural explanation.that is what Fatima is.the virgin mary appeared to three shepherd children on 13th may 1917 and asked them to come at the cova da iria every 13th of each month.

During this apparitions the virgin mary revealed to the children many things.she predicted a quick end to the first world war and the coming of the second world war later on.she accurately predicted the exact year when the war would start and that’s when it started.1939.she told them that God would work a miracle of the sun for people to believe in the Fatima message in the final apparition of oct 13th at noon.word went round and on the material day people travelled from all over Portugal many of them atheists and unbelievers to “prove the silly children wrong”.

Lo! and behold. At exactly noon, 70,000 people witnessed the miracle of the sun.this story was carried in the portugees press and the new York times newspaper. So we have secular and atheist controlled press authenticating the miracle of the sun.if nothing had happened the unbelievers, secular and atheists press would have had a field day laughing and scorning the Christian religion.instead millions of portugees atheists and unbelievers converted to Christianity.

Of course you were not physically present to see it for your self but history does not lie.you did not witness jf kennedy’s assassination but that doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen.you are not open minded because you say you have not researched on Guadalupe but you have already concluded that its fake.500 years later this miracle continues to astonish the world.no scientist has ever raised a doubt.the imprint of the virgin marys image on juan diegos tilma is a great miracle.the conversion of 7million pagans to Christianity is enough to tell you the impact of a true and authentic miracle

THE CATHOLIC TEACHING ON EVOLUTION THEORY

Since the publication of Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species in 1859, the attitude of the Catholic Church on the theory of evolution has slowly been refined. For about 100 years, there was no authoritative pronouncement on the subject. In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution, provided that Christians believe that the individual soul is a direct creation by God and not the product of purely material forces.

[1] Today, the Church’s unofficial position is an example of theistic evolution, also known as evolutionary creation,[2] stating that faith and scientific findings regarding human evolution are not in conflict, though humans are regarded as a special creation, and that the existence of God is required to explain both monogenism and the spiritual component of human origins. Moreover, the Church teaches that the process of evolution is a planned and purpose-driven natural process, actively guided by God

Pope John Paul II

In an October 22, 1996, address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Blessed John Paul II updated the Church’s position to accept evolution of the human body:

“In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points…

. Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis.

In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.”[33]

In the same address, Pope John Paul II rejected any theory of evolution that provides a materialistic explanation for the human soul:

“Theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man.”

Pope Benedict XVI and today

In July 2007 at a meeting with clergy Pope Benedict XVI noted that the conflict between “creationism” and evolution (as a finding of science) is “absurd:” [43]
Currently, I see in Germany, but also in the United States, a somewhat fierce debate raging between so-called “creationism” and evolutionism, presented as though they were mutually exclusive alternatives:

those who believe in the Creator would not be able to conceive of evolution, and those who instead support evolution would have to exclude God. This antithesis is absurd because, on the one hand, there are so many scientific proofs in favour of evolution which appears to be a reality we can see and which enriches our knowledge of life and being as such.

But on the other, the doctrine of evolution does not answer every query, especially the great philosophical question: where does everything come from? And how did everything start which ultimately led to man? I believe this is of the utmost importance.

Jay: Mao is dead. Do you know the meaning of this symbol: :-)
:-)
BTW all, I noticed this post up there: “davey and goliath?” Reminds me of the chapter in Tom Sawyer where he connives his way into getting a Bible as a reward for memorizing scriptures or something. The account is classic Twain, and is hilarious to anyone who knows something of the Bible. (Which everyone except poor Tom did in those days!) Take a break, guys.

doug-thanks for noticing:-)

Answer to Dennis:Both the Fatima tale and the miracle at Guadalupe are complete frauds,the fact that dozens of telescope cameras were trained on the sun the day the Fatima fraud supposedly happened and they show nothing strange happened to the sun is beyond a doubt proof that Fatima is a fraud.I have done a 4-5 hour research on the Guadalupe fraud below is a part of a copy paste from an internet article concerning it.
Paste: The Myth
According to the myth, in 1531 on a December Saturday morning, a humble Nahua named Juan Diego was on his way to church to be evangelized when he heard birds singing up on the hill of Tepeyac. Curious, he went up the hill and saw before him a beautiful lady surrounded by bright shining light. Her message was simple: she wished that a temple be built in her name on the hill of Tepeyac. From there she would make it known to all that she is the protectress of the Mexican Nation. She told Juan Diego to take this message to the bishop and reluctantly, he agreed, but the bishop did not believe him. Juan Diego returned to Tepeyac and told the lady what happened and she instructed him to return the next day. The next day, Sunday, he returned to deliver the message to the bishop and was once again received with doubt. The bishop asked for proof. On Monday Juan Diego, now lacking confidence, avoided Tepeyac all together and he tried to do the same on Tuesday, but somehow, she found him. He told her how the bishop wanted proof so she instructed him to go up on the hill and pick flowers. This was an odd request because it was December and there were no flowers to be found that time of year, but sure enough, just over the hill, he found every kind of rare flower he could think of. Obeying the command he picked several flowers and put them in his tilma, kind of like a pancho. This time, when he went to the bishop he opened his tilma and instead of flowers there was an image of the Virgen de Guadalupe there—proof enough for the skeptical bishop. So this is how the story goes.

The Truth
The truth is very different. Actually, there is no mention of this myth until 1648 when Miguel Sanchez published it. The supposed bishop in the story was Bishop Juan de Zumarraga who, while a real historical character, was not the bishop in Mexico at the time. In fact, Zumarraga is the only real character in the story because there is no evidence of there ever having been a Juan Diego. And Zumarraga, in all his records as an inquisitor and even later when he did finally become bishop, makes no mention of this miracle. Funny how something that would have seemingly have had such an impact on a person goes unmentioned for over one hundred years until it is written down as a second hand account. Another undeniable fact is that the image is man made. There is nothing other worldly about it. All the paints and the fabric can be traced back to the paints and textiles that were popular at the time. In fact, the image even has an author; Marcos Cipac. It’s pretty hard to claim heavenly divinity when the item in question is very human.
From me:This is not the only article on the internet(and i didn’t paste all of this article)proving this is another fraud by the Catholic church who is famous for putting out miracle claimed frauds.The catholic church has no idea what the fraud virgin Mary looked like,but yet this supposed image looks just like other fake pictures of Mary the church has put out,if it was anything but fake(was heavenly sent) the picture would be the actual likeness of Mary not a similar type image.This fraud was not even pushed as a miracle until 117 years after it supposedly happened.It amazes me what people like yourself will believe through a false faith when there is completely lack of evidence that Juan Diego ever existed,and the paint is now peeling off the original showing the image was brushed over(painted over) by someone other than the original artist.Of course there was never a virgin Mary to begin with,the 4 gospels are a fraud also.Grow up and stop believing in miracles and ancient legends,myths,fables and tales.Depend on facts for truth not every tale that comes along.In Real Truth,
                    Jay Osborne

thank you osborne.if its true that u spent 4 hours researching on guadalupe then iam sure you’ve come across the truth.deep in your heart iam sure u know that 7 million pagans cannot just wake up one day and convert to christian on the basis of fraud. Deep in your heart u know that reporters and editors of a respected secular newspaper like the newyork times can not carry a story of a miracle of the sun if they doubted it one bit.there would be a public out cry. And it cant be a coincidence that in a different continent a govt controlled newspaper in an athiest country where christians are a persecuted minority would carry the same story the same day . That in its self would be a miracle .....................by the way have you heard about the eucharistic miracle of lanciano? Have you heard of padre pio a stigmatist miracle worker, have you heard of the incorrupt bodies of several catholic saints??? Ofcourse i know you will say fake.but try and research and see what is there. ....later i will give u an historical and scientific evidence of the existence of jesus christ.

To Dennis:Deep in my heart and through research it is not at all hard to know both Fatima and the supposed Miracle at Guadalupe are nothing but frauds.Here is another short copy paste on the subject.
PASTE:As early as 1556, when a formal investigation of the cloth was held, one Franciscan tesified that the image had been “painted yesteryear by an Indian.” Another priest testified that the picture “was a painting that the Indian painter Marcos had done” (a probable reference to the Aztec painter Marcos Cipac). (For a discussion see Skeptical Inquirer Spring 1985, pp. 243-255.)

In 1996 the abbot of the basilica of Guadalupe (where the image is enshrined) created a furor by conceding that the whole story was a myth. He said that Juan Diego was fictitious, “a symbol, not a reality.” Subsequently, the Roman Catholic Church announced his departure as head of the basilica but gave no explanation. (See Skeptical Inquirer, January/February 1997, p.
From me>>Yes that is from the Skeptical Inquirer but the same thing is on other internet sites,notice the Catholic church fired or got rid of the Abbot.Here you had a member of your own flock saying the tale was a myth.It has been shown that the cloth was painted over by a priest in 1556.But still you won’t believe it is a fraud.Your claim which may be true that somewhere between 6-10 million pagans were converted to christianity proves nothing back then almost all(if not all) the people(native pagans) were illiterate just like they were when the Jesus tale began and were looking for any supposed miracle.Your Catholic church has always wanted to be a one world religion,during the Inquisition and the Crusades and more down through the ages the Catholic church murdered millions of people enforcing christianity under the threat of death.Your imaginary god could not convert people so you mudered those who would not accept christianity.On top of that your church had witch burnings burning people at the stake who were not even witches but just did something not agreeable to your unholy church.So to think the Catholic church would not commit fraud is ignorant.Actually it commited fraud right in your claimed Holy New Testament,over the centuries it has BEEN changed and added to many things not even in your earliest manuscripts.The New York Times was not there to investigate these claims they merely reported what some priest or Pope told them,also the New York Times are well known to print biased claims.Don’t be bringing up some other supposed fairy tale miracle,all miracles are proved fairy tales.I bet you believe Santa Claus comes down the chimney and Easter bunnys lay colored eggs.Neither am i interested in bogus Catholic saints.And why are you lying that you will send historical and scientific evidence for Jesus Christ,when there is none,ZERO,reliable evidence,i have studied and investigated and researched this claim for over 20 years,all claims have turned out to be fraud falsehoods and lies.You need to look for facts not fairy tale claims.In Real Truth,
                          JAY

I sent an answer to Dennis on Saturday which has not been posted yet after 2 days.

Boy you guys sure closed your mouths in a hurry when confronted with facts.You could have said GOODBYE.Goodbye to all of you.
                  JAY OSBORNE

jay-I feel badly. Didn’t mean to be rude. I was very interested in the running responses but thought it was time to let up -there is so much going on elsewhere and it seemed you had no further interest in soulful musings, though i may be wrong. All the ‘facts’ you give haven’t weakened my faith AT ALL, but it did take me to much investigating and a beautiful confirmation of my faith tradition. For this i thank you(and i don’t mean that in an underhanded way). I see you keep coming back to Catholic/Christian sites-I won’t pretend to say I know why…I’m just sayin’...best regards

Thanks RichT,
I am sending this over again because your site said i didn’t get the code word right.My only purpose is to make people think for themselves and start researching their beliefs.I don’t mean to ridicule anyones belief.Keep investigating and researching with an open mind subject by subject.I won’t write to this site anymore unless someone responds.Goodbye,
                    JAY