For “Amanda” and “Laura”:  Be not afraid!  Ask, and it shall be given unto you.  Have faith the size of a mustard seed.  Under His wings your refuge.  He will bear you up lest you cast your foot upon a stone.  You can walk on water if you but keep your eyes fixed upon the Lord.

“not an objective moral issue”
as though there was such a thing as an “objective moral issue”
“the lies of secular culture”
in your opinion

Good morning, Jennifer! Hope you and baby are doing well! Thank you once more for the clarity you bring to this issue that many, if not most, Catholic couples do not understand.  Can’t exactly blame them, either. Again, thanks to the sore lack of thorough catechesis on the part of priests, etc.  Again, another result of the modernist thinking that infiltrated the Church post-Vatican II.  I do hope “Amanda” and “Laura” read your posts for a follow-up on your always-fine, and well-reasoned explanations!  (Incidentally, if I heard correctly a guest or caller on a recent Catholic radio show, he was expressing envy of his Mormon friends who seemed to be very well-steeped in their own theology, unlike himself and Catholic teaching!)

I think Amanda and Laura’s story is very common.  I always knew that contraception used to be against Church teaching, but I thought it was an outdated teaching that no one was expected to uphold.  I also equated no contraception with having a baby every year with no input from the couple. The Church has a long way to go in clearing up these misconceptions.

Many young catholic men also received from priests advice on family planning that included contraception.

I was told by my RCIA director and by my priests, when I was looking for help in understanding this whole NFP thing that, as long as we didn’t have an abortion, all other contraception was okay to use. I have never heard anything mentioned about NFP (or about the mandate) from the pulpit. My husband, a cradle Catholic, was never taught about NFP. And, while I know it’s not always the case, considering that nearly every other young family in our parish has the acceptable two children, I’m assuming there are a lot of contracepting couples out there. I think it’s wonderful that speakers and blog writers are “getting the word out” but ultimately I think the priests and RE directors need to step up. Websites like this might discuss NFP but, for the most part, this is preaching to the choir. How do we reach all of the Catholics in the pews so that they know about the Church’s teaching and feel able to follow it?

My wife contracepts and shows zero signs of even wishing that she would wish to stop.  The best advice I’ve read (here, maybe, or on catholicexchange.com) is that the marriage bond is important enough that the non-contracepting spouse can participate in sex if initiated by the contracepting spouse but otherwise refraining is the way to go.  Because of this, I’ve decided not to instigate sex while she uses…this means that it’s been literally over two years since we were intimate.  I’ll go to my death before I purposely excite her while she is contracepting.  My wife has never been, um, frisky, so I don’t see sex happening for as far out as I can see.  Honestly, though, I’m doing my best to follow Jesus through the Church, confessing my sins, striving for holiness, but I’m pretty much close to miserable.  I’d be miserable without Jesus, too, so I guess my mood isn’t a good indicator of anything.  My fear is that there is no way to let God’s light shine through me if I dread waking up each day because the days suck.  Sorry, going off on a tangent.  My bad.

Catholics DO believe in “responsible parenthood”. See Humanae Vitae 10.

Claire is right, I think many Catholics think no contraception means the Church wants women to have a baby every year. There is a LOT of skepticism about whether NFP works to prevent pregnancy. (I wonder if Amanda’s Catholic mother had a “rhythm baby” or two?) I think people don’t trust that the Church is promoting valid science, and I think some NFP promoters unintentionally play into these fears.

Talking about openness to life while promoting a method of family planning sounds a lot like “weasel words” and “covering your backside” to the unconverted.

@Justaguy:  Why is your wife using contraception if you aren’t having sex? I don’t think contraception is the real problem here. Get marital counseling.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell” was originated by the Catholic Church and it all revolves around contraception.
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Marriage prep teams, RCIA directors and, yes, even priests won’t ask you about your family planning choices but neither will they tell you what and more importantly, WHY, the Church teaches what it does.  Perhaps they don’t know the why but surely they know it’s wrong.
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It took my dh and I almost five years to figure it out ourselves with a bumpy road of reconciliation with the Church and each other. 
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Now, my dh and I are quick to tell others what we learned when appropriate, have taught NFP for years through CCL but it still remains the ‘Great Unspoken Teaching’ in our church and Catholic marriages are suffering because of it - ‘Just a guy’ above is proof.
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Less teaching, preaching on Social Justice and more on Marital Justice which includes a marriage free from the slavery to drugs or surgery.

@James - please see a marriage counsellor and if your wife refuses, see one on your own.  There’s obviously a lot of anger and bitterness on both sides of your marriage.  Contraception (or not) is NOT your issue.  It’s a symptom. 
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We used to contracept in our early marriage (condoms).  Then we decided that out of obedience to Holy MOther Church we should switch to NFP.  We had surprise kids both ways.  I can’t honestly say switching to NFP affected our marriage one way or the other.  Here’s my opinion of NFP versus ABC:  Condoms were easier and cheaper.  My husband prefers sex without a condom.  Once you have a few kids, it’s not like you’re having sex every night anyway.  If you’re only intimate a couple of times a week, taking a week off isn’t a big deal.  Or it shouldn’t be to a happily married couple.  Fully living our faith helps us sleep better.
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Of course, I’ve always had very regular cycles and I am *extremely* fortunate to have a husband who understands that any babies made are his responsibility too.  I remember back when I was pregnant with an obviously surprise child that women started to ask me how my husband was taking the news.  I’m only now coming to appreciate that there’s a contraceptive mentality that can exist independently of whether or not a couple is artificially contracepting.    Whether we were using condoms or not, my husband’s response in the face of a surprise baby has never been anything but excited for the new life and concern for me and the accompanying health issues a pregnancy means.

Oh my goodness.  @James, I didn’t mean to address you.  I meant to address Just a guy  
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@Just a guy - my above comment about contraception being just a symptom in a very troubled marriage was for you.

Thanks for this.
One of my children teaches NFP, both for her parish & in addition she offers online classes.Many of her online students are not Catholic, some come from no faith tradition at all but are just seeking a more natural means to space children.
It’s sad that NFP is so unevenly used as a resource by different dioceses.Often, access to NFP teaching just depends upon where you live & which diocese/parish.
And, NFP is a method to achieve pregnancy as well as a means for women to understand & take responsibility for their own unique reproductive health.To me,someone who has vaguely feminist leanings, “paternalism’ equates to large pharmaceutical corporations controlling women’s natural cycles & delicate reproductive chemistries through powerful, one size fits all,manufactured steroids & treating our fertility as a disease.

I wish every priest, bishop, and other person responsible for teaching the faith could read this article, especially this paragraph, and realize how COMMON this problem is.  (Contraception is the root of the culture of death and as long as we go along in merry ignorance, there will be no hope for change, for life, even in the Church.)

“They explained that they had not fully understood that the Church was serious about this teaching until the blowup surrounding the HHS Mandate; before then, they explained, it was easy to assure themselves that contracepting must be fine since so many other people in the pews were doing it. For example, after Amanda’s second child was born, her Catholic mother warned her sternly that it would be irresponsible not to get on the Pill. Laura once had a confessor assure her that contraception was a matter of personal preference, not an objective moral issue. Neither Amanda nor Laura had heard anything about the topic in their many years of Catholic school and religious formation classes. And so for all of their married lives they’d used various forms of contraception, never questioning how it might jibe with the doctrines of their faith.”

@ Earl: Spoken like a true relativist. You exemplify everything that is wrong with the post-Christian secular worldview. Have some courage, man, take a stand for something. No more wishy-washy “what’s right for you, what’s right for me” thinking. 

“The man that stands for nothing falls for everything” -GK Chesterton

Also, is it not remarkable that it took Barak Obama to teach Catholics that the Church really believes contraception is wrong?

I agree that NFP can be a “stepping stone” for women who want to stop using artificial contraception, but have not reached the point of truly trusting God to determine the size of their families. But NFP should not be the end goal. NFP is, in effect (when used to “space” or “limit” births) just a licit form of birth control, and birth control is not a Catholic value. I don’t think NFP should be viewed as an “alternative lifestyle”.

Besides, NFP is only to be used for serious/grave/just reasons. That fact is not emphasized enough, as far as I have been able to determine. If we could return to teaching the value of large families, more couples would learn about the path to holiness that is awaiting them. The world needs more babies; that’s evident in a number of nations where the “replacement” birth rate is not being met. The effects of “population control” are now being felt, and it’s not a pretty picture.

Large families provide benefits to both the individual and society.

A really interesting article, thanks Jennifer. Catechesis is desperately needed!

@James and @Justaguy - Ironically, one possible side effect of the pill is decrease in libido.

Marriage Prep in our diocese of Phoenix includes church teaching on human sexuality and NFP instruction.  Thank you Bishop Olmsted! We are also Blessed to have the John Paul II Resource Center for Theology of the Body and Culture with workshops available; local and national speakers, too.

Thank you for writing this.  It renewed my resolve to try and spread the message at our parish in new ways.

@Jay Boyd: Responsible parenthood IS a Catholic value. Large families can be a blessing, but family size is a matter of prayerful discernment between the couple and God.

@Lily, @Kathleen, @Staying Anonymous: The Pill/IUD and other forms of biological contraception are particularly harmful because of the damage they do to women’s bodies. “Minor” side effects, such as loss of libido and mild depression can be devastating in a marriage.

Few people know this, but the Church considers the Pill temporary sterilization, not contraception. I think some Catholics get so caught up in talking about contraception, that they forget the very powerful and very reasonable arguments against sterilization, both temporary and permanent. Contraception alters the act, sterilization alters the act and the body. Contraception violates only the 6th commandment, sterilization both the 5th and the 6th. Sterilization is a far more serious problem. Getting couples away from the pill, even if they do not follow Church teaching perfectly, is a significant moral improvement.

Staying anonymous this time,
  Thanks for talking outside the typical box.  “Just a guy” and spouse would profit from talking to you.  There is email.

Sadly, there are so many Amandas and Lauras in the Catholic world because we were not getting taught the truth in a way that the average lay person heard and understood. Instead, it seemed the only priests that spoke up were the ones that said the decision of birth control was up to each couple to decide themselves. I had a priest who was also a doctor in Kalispell, MT (last I heard, he is still practicing both professions) who told me it was unrealistic to expect Catholic couples to follow the teaching against birth control. Then, he wrote me a prescription for birth control pills.  Thankfully, I grew in my faith and understanding and so too did our family grow, adding 7 more than what we had at the time, (2 from adoption).  Most people don’t even know the abortifacient effects for most contraception. At least that priest/doctor didn’t seem to. Or, maybe he just didn’t care.

@Earl:  Re “as though there was such a thing as an ‘objective moral issue’”, what is one to conclude from your implication that failure to disbelieve in objective moral issues is an objective moral issue?

James,

I agree.Fertility is a healthy condition treated by drug companies-and society- as a disease.There are all kinds of side effects from oral contraceptives, including the suppression of the immune system which makes women more vulnerable to STD infections. In addition, women on oral contraceptives who already have HIV appear more likely to spread the virus to their partners.

I find it offensive that women are treated this way & we are not considered intelligent enough to understand & take responsibility for our reproductive cycles.It’s like a corporate pat on the head to the little ladies, ” You all don’t worry your little heads about fertility, we’ve got this covered.” Which is bad enough til you read the fine print…

All priests should read this.  A year ago,I could have been “Laura” or “Amanda”.  Wonderful sermons by 2 younger priests, one on the real danger of living with mortal sin, and the other on why the Chuch teaches what it does on contraception, led me to trust my Church on this only holdout I had on Catholic teaching.  It’s not super easy, but the guilt I carried with me due to occasional condom use (unlike these ladies, deep down I knew I was disobeying the true teachings, no matter how I justified it to myself) has been lifted and I feel more fully connected to my faith.  We have 4 kids, will hopefully have more, and my husband is thrilled with this decision and with every pregnancy.  There are so many of us who want to be faithfully informed!

BTW, the newly ordained priest whose homily was on contraception—it was the only homily I’ve ever heard that was applauded at the end.  Not everyone joined in for sure, but it was VERY well received.  :)

Along with promoting actual Church teaching on this topic, I LOVE to see someone be realistic about NFP and how it can affect a marriage. And not all the propaganda that is generally promulgated… To wit: “It makes your marriage stronger”, “You can do other things” and so much more.

Quite frankly, I only use NFP because I *have* to. I have medical conditions that contraindicate other methods. I have had TWO “surprise” babies using NFP. I love my kids dearly. Truly. But it has NOT been easy. Our marriage isn’t “stronger” because of NFP. If anything, periods of extended abstinence have made it worse, not better. And by extended abstinence I mean YEARS at a time. It’s NO picnic. I’ve tried various methods, after the previous one became impossible, so it’s NOT a matter of “finding the right method”.

We started our marriage with NFP and it will end with it. It’s NOT EASY. It’s NOT SIMPLE. It DOES fail sometimes. That’s REALITY. And no, I’m not bitter. I passed bitter about 5 years ago. I will absolutely NEVER get pregnant again. For my mental and physical well-being it is imperative. My husband and our priest understand the reasons and that’s all that needs be said on that topic.

In a perfect world, where women have excellent support and people who help them, more than 2 kids or so is doable. But in today’s America, where people hardly know their next-door neighbor, let alone have anyone nearby to assist them, it’s hard. I know it’s not impossible. I’ve got many friends with more than the “acceptable” 2.3 children. More power to them. God gave them grace he SURE didn’t give me.

NFP is NOT a panacea or cure to all the world’s ills, no matter how much it’s proponents want to believe it. When people start to wake up and be honest about it, without using positive spin and just say “Yeah, it IS sacrificial. In more ways than you can possibly imagine”, then perhaps the outside world will have a more positive view of it and those who promote it.

A dear friend once described NFP as “the worst possible method, except all the others”. There are more women who have difficulty with NFP than people want to talk about. “Don’t talk about how hard it is, you’ll scare people off!” they say. I say, “They’re going to be REALLY pissed when they find out they’ve been LIED TO. Better to be honest and upfront about it from the get-go.”

I have belonged to an online community that promotes NFP from a Catholic World View since 2000 when I converted. I’ve seen and heard it ALL. Every encyclical, every argument. We’ve parsed the meaning of “iustae causae” to death. But at the end of the day, we’re HONEST about what it’s like on a day-to-day basis. We will defend the Truth to the bitter end, but we aren’t a bunch of rose-colored-glasses wearing neophytes who think it’s the best thing since sliced bread.

I think a lot of priests don’t feel comfortable talking about it. They are, after all, not married.

They also know that inevitably, there is someone who had a bad experience with NFP (or the old rhythm method) who will give him an earful after mass.

What do you say to people who have had found NFP to be ineffective and/or harmful to their marriages?

I am an adult convert to the Catholic faith. I was raised in a liberal and quasi feminist household. We were Christian and I went to church every Sunday as a child. While my mom and dad generally chose to live a relatively traditional family model, they both wholly embraced the notion of birth control and access to abortion in cases of grave circumstances were critical to freedom. So, I actually entered RCIA twice. The forst time was in college.  I was aware of Catholic teachings on these matters, and unlike many of my cradle Catholic friends, I was unwilling to profess a faith when I could not truly embrace all its teachings. I didn’t receive a particularly good explanation for the Church’s teachings on birth control and was somewhat less than fully convinced on the hard fast pro-life teachings, as well. So, I walked away. Many years later and 14 years into my marriage, my path brought me to the Catholic Church again. I was older, a little wiser, and more open to hearing what the Chirch had to say having had a rather powerful experience of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. I was determined to understand fully this time around. I asked around for resources. I found my starting point in a few paragraphs of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. From there, I followed the footnotes. Someone else pointed me toward Theology of the Body. Once I understood the basis of the teachings, it was still scary. But at least it made sense. I spoke with my husband. I explained what I’d found reading and praying, and I told him I thought we needed to do this.  It was a few weeks before he came to agree, but we did. I can personally say it has made a HUGE difference on our lives.  Our marriage has changed. Our attitudes about sex has changed. And while I thought I was happy before, I could not be more glad for it!  Additionally, we have two more children, which doubtless we could not have conceived without the help of our NFP classes.  What other form of birth control can help you conceive when you want to be pregnant, as well as helping you avoid conception when you don’t? And the level of intimacy we now share is miles above what we had before, though I would not have believed it possible when we started this journey. Please, if you have any doubts… Read Bl John. Paul Ii’s Wednesday audience series on Theology of the Body. Read Humanae Vitae. And, most of all, pray!

I was one of those Catholic women using birth control until I went on an Acts retreat.  The priest on the retreat with us had handed out a little brochure with a list of sins that make you ineligible to receive communion.  Right there on that list was taking contraceptives.  I vowed that very moment to stop taking the pill because I absolutely was not going to be giving up communion.  I too was misinformed about the situation; however, as soon I saw it in black and white I was enlightened.  Thank you Father Wayne for showing me the path to truth!

Great column Jennifer. I was married in the 60’s when the “pill” first appeared and was thrilled to have a sure bc method after two quick children.  But now in my senior years have many regrets and a lot of guilt. Wish there would have been classes about NFP then.

I still stand quite confused. If I am to prayerfully consider my family’s size, but NFP is still a form of birth control (only for grave reasons), where does that leave me? I am going to assume that Jay Boyd does not have young children and is not living a mainstream American life.  To get pregnant every year, as I did for many, can be a reality. And perhaps you are all married to doctors or lawyers, but realistically, how am I supposed to pay for catholic schooling for 8 children on 60,000 per year? And I am supposed to give up any interest my children have in a sport or activity? Where does this money come from? Your article was interesting, but I remain as confused as ever. Is it possible God calls us to a smaller family, even if you are incredible fertile? And then He may ask us to love each other and provide responsibly for a life that we lift up to the Lord?

Great talk, Jennifer. Thank you for helping these women, one at a time. Soon we’ll all get there, even if it takes a generation or two.

@still so confused:  Don’t listen to a “Combox Pope”. “Grave reasons” is a mistranslation of the Italian. “Serious reasons” or “Just reasons”.

The Catechism states it plainly:

“For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood.” CCC 2368.

This is what our bishops have to say on the matter.

http://old.usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/seriousq.shtml

There is no “list of reasons”, this is a matter of prayerful discernment which will be unique to the individual couple.

Nina, what a honest, real comment from someone who has been there. I spent the early years of my marriage dreading being with my husband. We followed the church’s teaching of NFP being a form of birth control and were open to all life, not avoiding conception. Pregnant on our honeymoon and every year after. Oh how I wish we had just a month or two of marriage to learn about each other. In tears every time I continued to get pregnant. Yes, I ADORE my children. I have no doubt that God has a purpose for each of them, and for me to be in each of their lives. But let’s be REAL! How long can this go on? 12, 14 kids? My mental health and my marriage suffer. Why isn’t this ever talked about when discussing NFP? Perhaps when I am 80 I will be happy that I have raised a large family, but I find in condensing that the church teaches that one thing is right for all peoples. And to be clear, I am vehemently opposed to any kind of aboritifacient birth control.

@still so confused: NFP is ALWAYS objectively licit and objectively moral.

How a couple uses it (achieve/avoid/whatever) is a matter of discernment. It is NEVER contraception, but, like any licit thing, it may be used with improper or selfish motives.

Got it?

It’s a disappointment that men and women must find themselves in opposition to church teachings in order to access modern healthcare. No doubt that contraception has been misused, but married women should be able to access reproductive healthcare. My wife has a medical condition that makes pregnancy potentially life threatening, she temporarily went blind in one eye after the birth of my last child. Life without contraception isn’t life affirming for us, we’ve had 4 miscarriages. Oh, I’m sure that if we were better at “natural family planning” we wouldn’t have gotten pregnant, but the fact is, the stakes are too high for us to play with superstitious beliefs that God always makes everything ok. Sometimes OK included death, illness, burial, and suffering. It certainly was an odd day for me when I realized I was grateful the Catholic Church wasn’t in control of my country and my healthcare options. Let’s inform women and then give them freedom to use their conscience in a free society.

Jay Boyd had two kids and then had a tubal ligation (this was prior to her conversion to Catholicism). So no, she’s never been in the trenches with five or more small kids at once.
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Why NFP is Not a Heresy is an excellent article showing that the Church has accepted periodic continence for spacing childbirth since the 1800s: http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt103.html

When people have problems with NFP, it’s usually one of four issues:

Method issues: The couple can’t figure out how to get the method to work. Sometimes the woman is using the wrong method for her body. Solution: Change methods.

If all else fails, the new Marquette Model uses a hormone monitor. More expensive, but supposedly very accurate. nfp.marquette.edu

Medical issues: Couple cannot figure out the charts because there is a bona fide medical problem. Solution: Seek medical help.

Relational/Psychological issues: Couples may not be able to communicate about sex. Couples may starve the marriage for intimacy when sex is not available. Sex may become a “battlefield”. Couples may be using sex as their only form of intimacy. Couples may use NFP as a “scapegoat” for resentment issues. Woman may have body issues that make the observations distasteful. Solution: Get marital/psychological counseling.

Theological issues: Couples may take an overly legalistic view of the teachings of the Catholic Church. May become overscrupulous over “serious reasons”. May avoid each other over fear of “the near occasion of sin”. Teaching is not a “series of rules, but a positive option for couples.” (Unfortunately, often presented as a series of rules.) Solution: Inform your faith.

Chris, people are always free to sin. We have free will. Our current society makes it quite easy to sin, unfortunately. The question is: do you think sinning is a good thing?
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What methods of NFP have you and your wife tried?

I remember being angry when I first found out about NFP as I wasn’t taught in CCD or parochial school about why contraception is wrong, never heard a homily about why contraception is wrong, and never heard much in Pre-Cana. I became angry at the dissenters, the cowards, and those who just don’t care. Then I took that energy and sought the truth. And the Truth set me free. I am so glad I learned what our beautiful faith teaches about marriage, sexuality, fertility, and contraception…

Still so confused,
    It’s not “grave” reasons….that’s the slant of internet posters who are unwittingly wrong.  Go to Humanae Vitae itself at the Vatican website to chapter 2 section 10, 4th paragraph:

  ” With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for SERIOUS reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.”

    Same in Latin….“seriis causis”.  Say “not grave” five times.  This mistake festoons the Catholic internet.

The truth is in all the 44 years since Humanae Vitae (1968) I have never heard a homily about the Church’s teaching on birth control at any of the Catholic colleges I attended or at any of numerous parishes in the various diocese where I have lived.  Only once about 10 years ago when we visited the Cathedral in Pittsburgh did a young priest preach on the subject.  That’s it!  I know there are priests who believe in the Church’s teaching but I guess they are to scared to address the issue.  Take courage!  JPII encouraged the bishops to teach the BEAUTY of sexuality and the gift of self.  In doing so the dignity of the human person is elevated to its rightful place and is respectfully appreciated.  Like Amanda and Laura, this is what women want and deserve…and men also.

Posted by Chris on Wednesday, Feb 6, 2013 12:14 PM (EDT):

It’s a disappointment that men and women must find themselves in opposition to church teachings in order to access modern healthcare.”
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The Church & modern healthcare work just fine together.NFP is cutting edge modern healthcare but is poorly understood, especially by healthcare professionals.

Life is messy and painful.  We. all. suffer.  More or less.  Outside of Church teaching or even any moral ideas, it is clear that the sexual union of a man and a woman is intended to bring new life.  Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t, depending on many possible factors surrounding the timing of the act and the physiology and health of the man and the woman.  That’s the way it is.  Pretending that sex isn’t about life is the problem.  Once you accept that reality, then you can BEGIN to understand Church teaching if you want to.  Remember, Nature never forgives.  Our bodies are what they are.  We misuse them expecting good results.  It isn’t working and it never will.  You cannot deny the basic scientific facts about what we are and have good outcomes.  The outcomes may appear good for a time, but Nature will exact a price.

@Earl

Your lost

The World Health Organization lists oral contraceptives as a Class I carcinogen.  The church is trying to keep us safe.  The culture gives us the lie that contraceptives help us when they are entirely dangerous.

Thank you so much for this article.  I am the mother of eight children, ages 2-20.  I was raised by beautiful Catholic parents who raised fourteen children.  The road my husband and I walk hasn’t been easy but has been so gratifying. 

When will we start hearing one single thing about the beauty of this teaching from the pulpit or in RCIA?  When will our teens hear it at CCD or Youth Group?  We talk about it at home but I doubt most parents ever mention one thing about it.

I am now off to call my priest.  I have a stack of informational pamphlets that I have been meaning to give him that he will hopefully make available at church on Natural Family Planning.

Great topic!  I was never educated on the topic as a cradle catholic.  So, when my husband and i got married we used the pill.  We’ve been charting for over a year now.  I was disappointed to not have been taught the theology of the body in al of my years as a catholic. At the beginning of charting I told my husband that we find this so difficult because we have been abusing sex for nearly nine years.  So, of course it is going to be hard to change.  If we had charted from the get go it would have been easier.  This needs to be taught…the theology and better access to NFP classes along with support to couples who need it!

JJ,
Good comments.
The old saying that God forgives always, man sometimes & Nature never, is very true.

James,
Just to chime in with my experience, tho I think I’m the only one who didn’t get the Marquette Method to work for me… In a year’s time I only got two “peaks” on the monitor, which makes it very difficult to figure out when you’re ovulating. Turns out sympto-thermal was more reliable for me and I feel like I wasted a lot of time and money with Marquette. Just wanted to point out that for most it might be the “If all else fails” method, that isn’t always the case. I admit to being a little bitter about the experience and the lack of support for it on the MM website… I was told I must have a medical issue (no doctor has found anything) or maybe I wasn’t testing properly (really? I’m not stupid, and it’s not rocket science). So in two years we’ve been able to avoid pregnancy with sympto-thermal, tho perhaps with fewer times of intimacy just because we are being more conservative. What other have said is true, it is a sacrifice and it’s not always rosy.

I’m wondering, has anyone ever asked a priest why he doesn’t preach more on Church teaching regarding contraception? I’d be curious to hear the reasons from the horse’s mouth, so to speak, rather than just our speculation.

I was lucky that the pastor—and his brother priests—of the parish where I converted and was married was very supportive of NFP—and was himself lucky that he had a strong doctor/NFP instructor there to provide the information and support he needed to preach the truth. Together, they expanded the NFP program to require that EVERY couple marrying through the parish—which is huge and a university parish to boot, so that’s a lot of young couples!—has to take an entire NFP course, not just a one-hour info meeting. That instructor has in turn taught other instructors and has gone on to get more training herself so she can offer a full NaPro medical practice. The priests have preached on contraception, all RCIA classes have a presentation on NFP, + the engaged couples’ classes have really made that parish the strong center of the entire diocesan NFP movement. The parish now has NFP group meetings and socials, which helps make it a more “mainstream” idea.

The engaged encounter I attended through another parish was rather weak regarding NFP—mentioned briefly, but since most of the other couples switched roommates so they could sleep together over the weekend, I can’t say it was very effective. I did hear a no-holes-bared discussion of sex and sexuality through our parish’s RCIA program—bless the young priest who was brave enough to stand up there and say “X practice is wrong, you can never do it and here’s why”, including giving a theological talk about contraception, which was followed up by a medical talk about it. Through our marriage prep we again took an entire NFP course, so by that time we were both pretty sold. I can only wish that other young couples got the same information and support.

So Earl, there’s no such thing as an objective moral issue?  I guess that murder and rape aren’t objectively immoral then.

After an OBGYN appointment with my 16 year old daughter yesterday, this post couldn’t have more perfect timing. My daughter is a virgin and chooses to stay so until marriage so that is not a factor in the following question. Due to serious medical conditions, the doctor is discussing putting her on birth control. I am hesitant for medical reasons as well as ethical, moral and religious reasons. If someone is taking birth control for medical reasons only, is it OK from a Catholic standpoint? Both my daughter and I want to make a decision that is faithful to the Church.

I did not read the whole set of the above comments-so just in case it was not mentioned-I would like to say that this issue of NFP only can be addressed and understood within the context of Theology of the body-our great legacy from John Paul the II.

I guess it would be fine to hear more about the true teachings of the Church from the pulpit, but I think most couples have heard the truth and don’t want to live it at least when they first get married. When problems start or when one of the spouses feels used and unappreciated, that’s when folks start listening. It’s a shame there aren’t too many encouraging voices out there to help when people need them.

I think the real trouble is that married couples need to understand before they get married that when you vow “for life” it means EVERYTHING in the marriage is “for life”. If you go into a marriage and expect everything on your own terms, there are going to be problems and resentments. If you don’t see yourself having sex the rest of your life, perhaps you need to think long and hard about getting married. Perhaps your passion is best used elsewhere. If you don’t see yourself giving of yourself the rest of your life for the good of your spouse and your marriage, don’t get married. If you want a life full of joy, but free of limitations, don’t get married. The marriage is for all practical purposes over if your spouse becomes an object to you: a paycheck, a sexual release mechanism, a maid, a nanny, a surrogate parent, you fill in the blank. Fear of change or marital inertia is another problem.

What I think would be more helpful to couples is taking another look at how Christians are supposed to treat one another and then consider how their marriage would look if they both took their Christian calling more seriously. I think there would be fewer spouses who feel overwhelmed and more who feel loved and appreciated as God loves them.

I am a late 30-something year old Catholic woman. When my husband and I decided we wanted to start a family, and had difficulty, we were led to a local woman who taught us the Creighton Method of NFP to help us conceive. So, you see, another beauty of NFP is that it can actually help you understand your reproductive self better and, once you are educated and have experience, you can read your chart and know exactly what is going on with your body. I thought it was crazy to learn NFP to get pregnant but I only had a secular understanding of it. It’s not what people call the Rhythm Method and it’s not simple but people can learn it and practice it. It needs to be taught. Another positive is that you are not putting any chemicals into your body. Couples are either trying to achieve or trying to avoid. I was fortunate enough to have a wonderful Catholic doctor near me who was trained at The Pope Paul IV Institute for Reproductive Health and doesn’t prescribe contraceptives ever in his practice. There are actually doctors out there who follow church teaching. He was the best doctor I have ever had. The PPVI Institute treats women’s reproductive health with no methods that go against church teaching. I know several women who were able to conceive by having gone there. I have a lot to say on this but I will wrap it up. If you are curious then there is a reason and you should find a class and just go. People should not judge something that they know nothing of. Learn about it and then critique it. A website to find Catholic doctors, many who know this method, is www.onemoresoul.com. The PPVI website also has more information. God bless!

I remember when Humanae Vitae came out.  I was young with babies and I married a non Catholic man.  I wanted to use NFP but knew it would end my marriage. So I prayed the Lord would understand.

The Theology of the Body info from Pope JPII works to help explain the reasoning behind the whole idea of sexual love being open.
Our society however is promoting sex so much that it makes things very hard for God loving people. Our priests and churches do a very big disservice to the regular Catholic in the pews when they do not mention this type of thing.

If they choose not to preach about it then at least get booklets and cds and pamphlets on the topic and refer to them in the homily.  Or have the ushers hand out books or cds or whatever to the people leaving the church.  Great investment in soul saving!

I am an account rep for Lighthouse Catholic media cds.  We have many excellent teaching cds by the giant apologists and scripture scholars and recent speakers in the church with this new evangelization.

These cds are placed in church vestibules.  The priests need to tell their parish about them.  They include ALL hot topics.
We must learn our faith correctly. Faith comes by hearing.

If confused people like these two women begin reading and listening to the church teachings and see how it goes all the way back to Creation and Genesis maybe that would help.  Doing what Christ wants is usually very uncomfortable. 

Catholics must attend scripture studies, meditate on scripture, learn methods like Lexio Divina and go deeper. We all need to have deep silent prayer life and frequent daily mass times.  When we really begin to fall in love with Jesus then we will desire to know what hurts him and want to not do it. 

He has reasons for all He asks of us.  He knows the natural way He created us has ways to keep us happy and well.  He wants us to be so happy and filled with His love and joy. He wants us to copy Him as He was on earth even through and especially through His Passion.  We will all have our own passion here on earth.

Life is hard but a struggle is good and can be rewarding.  We all do not want to rock the boat we are comfortably in.
But change helps us grow.
Remember we are all called to be saints, to become holy.

From the beginning, especially in marriage prep couples need to already address this issue.
It is really hard when you have been married awhile and one person discovers a truth that you really need to both agree on.

If you have a God centered marriage already, that helps because it is about pleasing God not ones self. But people need help and support if they are re-adjusting to a newly discovered truth.

What if one person in the marriage wants NFP and the other refuses?  This could cause severe conflict. All I can say is to both go speak to a priest who can help direct you.  Go to the couples teaching groups etc.
If the dissenter refuses to go then you go get counsel.

God will know that you are struggling. Go spend time in adoration and ask Him for wisdom. Talk to Him and tell Him your confusion and ask for clarity. He will help.  He is always refining us to become sparkling gold.  It hurts.
Challenges help us grow.  It is not easy for sure.

So much to pray about in the world! 

DID NOT KNOW OR UNDERSTAND? PLEASE . MY SON WAS NOT PRACTICING HIS CATHOLIC FAITH NOR DID HE HAVE MUCH CATHOLIC TEACHING THROUGH PSR,YET HE ASKED ME IF HE WAS GOING TO HELL IF HIS WIFE GOT A TUBAL LIGATION. SOME MIGHT HAVE FOUND A PRIEST WHO TOLD THEM THAT CONTRACEPTION WAS OK,AND YES IT WASN’T TAUGHT FROM THE PULPIT BUT THE INFO WAS THERE—IT WAS JUST EASILY IGNORE. THE POWER TO DECEIVE OURSELVES IS GREAT. HOW LONG ARE WE GOING TO PRETEND WE DIDN’T KNOW?

In reply to Mom of Teenager: In answer to your question, in a case like you’re describing, using the pill for genuinely non-contraceptive purposes (like cycle or mood regulation) is not forbidden by Catholic moral teaching.  However, I’d still be very leary about it and seek a second opinion.  In many cases, the doctor is using the pill as a bandaid to mask rather than fix an underlying problem.  E.g., I had cycle irregularities a mainstream doctor would have prescribed the pill for, and it turned out to be a thyroid imbalance that needed to be fixed.  Not to mention the pill’s harmful side-effects.  I think doctors are far too quick to prescribe it because its contraceptive use in our culture has them habituated to thinking of it as a totally benign, risk-free drug.

@Tina: You’re the first person I’ve heard of who had trouble with Marquette. Thanks for sharing. Glad you found something that works for you.

She tried Creighton (bad), and STM (OK), now Billings (perfect).

@Kathleen: You said your daughter teaches online classes. Do you have a site? Online classes make things a LOT easier. For those looking for online classes, you can find them at nfpaware.com (BOM) and nwfs.org (STM)

@ ARM - Yes, you are right. I like the doctor we went to because she told us it was a bandaid to the underlying problem. She now knows what the problem truly is and but trying to help my daughter get regular again (there is a lot more to it but I will leave it at that). She said she wants to give her 6 months to go back naturally before even talking about birth control. So, that you for your answer and we are definitely working on the actual medical problem. THANK YOU!!!

Hey, everybody-

Add an extra sentence praising Claire’s good works. She needs an ego-boost from our last thread.

Kathleen—what fine print do you mean?

Mom of Teenager, thank you for sharing about your daughter. Birth control only masks health problems and does not heal it. I highly encourage you and your daughter to look into the Creighton Model and contact a local instructor or medical professional who is understands the model. Many of my friends who have problems and irregularities with their menstrual cycle praise this model as they are able to assess their cycle and health and get the help they need to be healthy. http://www.creightonmodel.com/ is a great resource and to find instructors and medical proffessionals near you, visit: http://www.fertilitycare.org/ God bless you both!

NFP is Catholic contraception. Timing sex to the woman’s infertility phase of her cycle is a waste of sperm.

In my mid 20s, I was like Amanda and Laura, but as soon as I found out about Church teaching on contraception in my late 20s, about the negative consequences of taking the pills, and the side effects to my health now and later on, stop practicing artificial birth control is one the best decision I ever made for my life and my marriage. I scared at least one woman away from becoming Catholic by telling her upfront about the Church Teaching on contraception, I am sorry, but the Church currently have plenty of cafeteria members already, we do not need new ones. Thanks for the article.

I don’t have any other Catholic friends even near my own age, I’m 23, everyone else at church is 35+ and it’s difficult to form a Catholic/Christian lifestyle without peers.

I have many non-Catholic Christian friends of my generation, all of whom are focussing on getting married soon (1 year) into their relationships, because their culture/parents/churches encourage it.

I’m sticking to God’s timing, and will hopefully be marrying my boyfriend next year (6/7 years into the relationship) in the midst of raised eyebrows for taking so long to get round to it, as if we’ve already spend the night together.

After 6 or 7 years of waiting to become sexually active, the very high chance of becoming pregnant after such an alteration in lifestyle (getting married/moving in with husband/moving to a new job) terrifies me, but I do want to use NFP. I’d just rather remain chaste whilst married than risk it. Of course, with all the encouragement of healthy, happy and hetero marriages from the church, it’s a very difficult situation to be in. I’d like some more teaching please.

To Sandy Malia, you said “Timing sex to the woman’s infertility phase of her cycle is a waste of sperm.” You are wrong, just take a look at the size of Catholic families.

I think “laura” and “amanda” are the norm in our world - well-meaning, sincere and honestly desiring to do the right thing.  I am not disappointed in a lack of homilies about BC - sitting in church with my youngsters is actually uncomfortable when I’m trying to figure out age-appropriate answers to the questions they will ask.  When I’ve presented to high school kids I’ve been honest.  Using NFP and being honest about the reality that a pregnancy may result any time my husband and I are together is where my faith becomes real.  It is hard and has challenged our ability to be honest with each other, our past responses to pressure, how we feel rejected/used when other forms of intimacy take more work. But if I mean it when I say that God is in charge, He will take care of us and that all life is a gift from Him, it is unbalanced to think that I can “control” everything. Many other areas of my life my faith are just talk, but for me, this area of my life and marriage is where it becomes real.  Also, pray for our priests.  It is in confession where I have had so many priests tell me that I’ve already been open to life and that I should open my mind to other options.  They want to make life more managable and easy for us and some of them are really not open to the depth of the church’s perspective.  Being a priest is tough and the formation of many of our older priests was at atime when American Bishops asked Pope Paul VI to change the teaching and didn’t like humanae vitae.  Our younger priests are trying, but they are sometimes victims of bitter responses from parishioners.

@justaguy: I hate to be the bearer of ill-tidings, but you are the head of your family. You’re going to need to find a way to give some direction to your wife to amend her life/your lives.
You might consider another internet handle, as a way of helping yourself understand who you are. You are not “just a guy.” You are Christ in your marriage, and one day when your bride is presented before the Father, that is a particular blemish you will not want on her, to say nothing of what she will want on that day.

Alicia:  you will learn very quickly that “Sandy Malia” is a troll.  She has nothing meaningful to add, although she will sometimes start conversations pretending that she cares about the topic at hand (for example, on Simcha’s thread she pretended that she has a lot of empathy for people with unplanned pregnancies).  But as the comments unfold, it’s clear that she has nothing better to do with her time than to troll.

Wow.  There are a lot of great comments here.  Several people mentioned that NFP is not a solution if the marriage itself needs some special intervention.  Clearly artificial birth control literally makes “barriers” in the marriage worse.  If there are already barriers, than NFP won’t solve things.  It is of utmost importance that the entire marriage relationship be addressed.  One of the spouses simply throwing out the pills one day clearly doesn’t address the bigger problem..  NFP won’t solve everything if both hearts aren’t in deep communion with God.

When my wife developed heart problems after our second child, she was told to go on ABC.  Several cardiologists confirmed that having further children would involve a significant chance of her not making it through childbirth alive.  She was “iffy” about it and I asked her not to, as I didn’t want her introducing what I consider to be nasty chemistry into her body. 

As a result, we have been a celibate couple ever since.  Still happily married, my love for my wife runs deeper than ever.  Part of being a grown up (as well as being a Catholic) is the concept of putting others needs ahead of your own, and putting the love of the Lord ahead of self percieved “needs”.

Where I live, NFP has always been a component of marriage preparation classes within the Catholic Church. The decision to use artificial contraceptiion despite knowing Catholic teaching on the subject is to reject it. NFP is only one doctrine Catholics have been unwilling to accept. How many Catholics see no problem with abortion, premarital sex, divorce and remarriage, homosexual marriage, etc.? Many of us are pick and choose Catholics who don’t follow the teachings of the Church, and we support politicians who share our views. Thankfully, Pope Benedict XVI is encouraging us to fully embrace the Church and its teachings during this Year of Faith.

I’m also thankful that Jennifer brought up the point that not all of us have a burning desire to be utterly in control of our fertility.  This isn’t possible anyway.  My mad skills at NFP could never be transferable to German car engineering, nor would I want them to be.  A little “let go and let God” can be amazing.  I had about twice as many kids as I ever thought I would with this method.  I’ve seen money and material things come and go, but our children are by far the greatest blessings in our lives.  I’m so glad I didn’t have to check a box in order to order them, because I wouldn’t have.  Thanks be to God that our Catholic Faith gave us the courage to allow blessings to come our way.

@laura: “Using NFP and being honest about the reality that a pregnancy may result any time my husband and I are together is where my faith becomes real.”

I think part of the problem of promoting NFP is mixed messages or statements that unintentionally imply the method is not effective.

Isn’t the entire point of NFP that barring a miracle, pregnancy will not result from being together at certain points in the cycle?

I am sure this is not your intention, but your statement sounds like “Our faith requires us to use an unreliable form of family planning.”

My mother has always told me about NFP and my diocese requires going through a course on NFP for marriage prep.  Most woman who I have talked to are impressed I’ve had so much exposure to the issue and say I’m lucky to have such a good understanding of how my body works.

I popped over here b/c I got on FB before my kiddoes’ nap to send something to someone for work and saw the link on a trusted friend’s site.  It caught my eye and the article made my eyes water.  I cannot echo the final words enough or get them to stop echoing in my mind.  Thank you: “...when you embrace this Catholic teaching, it’s going to turn your life upside down. You will lose a certain amount of control—not because it will be taken from you, but because you’ll find that you didn’t want it as much as you thought you did. Your relationship with your husband will change. Your relationship with your kids (both existing and future) will change. Your relationship with your own body will change. Your relationship with God will probably undergo the biggest change of all. I can’t promise you that it will be easy, but I can promise that you’ll never regret it, and that when you look back on your life, you’ll see it as one of the best decisions you ever made.”

LarryW2LJ,
    I Corinthians 7:5 is from God and is not for you but it is for some people.  Read all of chapter 7.  You will discern two groups….those who marry partly to avoid fornication and your group…those who are less needy in that area and could have been single without great detriment.  The Holy Spirit is telling that first group something in 7:5 which applies to them but not to you.  They are told not to attempt what you and your wife find possible….the Josephite marriage.  Two groups in that chapter…..not just your group.  One can follow the Josephite marriage and one is told explicitly not to do so.

For Mom of a Teenager:  Just so you’re aware—for many young women, cycle regularity may not be evident or established until they have been menstruating 3-5 years.  Unless an underlying hormone deficiency has been identified, I would also be leary of using hormonal contraception (HC) in your daughter.  One reason (though there are many) is because the risk of breast cancer - particularly triple negative, a very aggressive form - goes up substantially (about 300%) when a woman uses HC prior to her first pregnancy.

On the matter of licit use, though, HC can be licitly used in a woman so long as she is not engaging in sex (this is true whether one is married or not).

This is all too common in my world.  In my own case, I went through a period of questioning my cradle Catholicism and began researching, mostly in protestant writings.  But when compared to the Catechism, I knew I had to stay put and get serious about living the real thing. My husband was not on board with natural family planning and when I refused sterilization after our 3rd child, decided to have himself permanently sterilized.  I felt cooerced into signing the permission form and regret it to this day. At least we are talking about it more now. We must pray that the Holy Spirit will touch many souls to enlighten them with truth and the wisdom of our Church teaching.  Like many good parents know about discipline and self sacrifice, it may be difficult at times, but is always for our good.

Sandy Malia (and others):

NFP is NOT “Catholic contraception.” Contraception is the artificial indroduction of hormones/barriers/etc. that attempt to prevent one of two things: 1) Fertilization of the egg, and/or 2) Implantation of newly fertilized egg in the lining of the womb.

There is nothing artifical about working within the God-given cycles of a woman’s body to space pregnancy. At those “infertile” times, the woman’s body itself is “hostile” to sperm and naturally acts to prevent fertilization, especially at the most basic level of not releasing an egg. Nothing is unnatural is prevented from happening - and it’s not a “waste of sperm” either since the marital act is designed for 2 purposes, marital intimacy AND children, not just one or the other. According to your logic, anytime a couple had sex and didn’t get pregnant it would be a “waste.” That is not what the Catechism teaches at all.

Beautiful!!! AMEN!

@RMMT: Actually, if a married (i.e. sexually active) woman is using HC for medical reasons, this falls under the principle of double-effect. See Humanae Vitae 15. Pope Pius XII wrote about this in detail when the pill first came out.

As for any post-conception effects, if HC is used as medicine, the risks and benefits should be weighed as any other medicine. The fact that this medicine is also used for birth control is irrelevant.

@Mom of a Teenage -
The use of contraceptive drugs to address a medical issue, and is truly not being used for its contraceptive quality, would be considered therapeutic and thus morally permissible.
However, as others have advised you, please consider seeking out alternative options that do not require pumping your daughter’s pubescent, growing body full of artificial hormones. There are SO many harmful side effects from using hormonal BC and these problems compound quite seriously the younger the woman is when she begins using such drugs.
Aside from the many harmful side effects, use of such drugs will indeed not even solve your daughter’s health issues, but rather cover them up. It would be much better for her of course to actually get to the bottom of her issue, and heal her body, rather than just mask the symptoms of her issue. I’d also suggest finding your nearest Creighton practitioner, and check out this site to find a trained Napro doctor who will be familiar with the whole spectrum of reproductive problems. http://www.fertilitycare.org/
If there are no Creighton or Napro doctors near you, please call the center in Omaha. They are AMAZING at providing the best they can even at a distance. Be an advocate for health, fight for your daughter! Don’t let some doctor make you feel dumb and just throw a pill at you. No one cares about your child more than you, and your perspective/concerns/needs are all valid - don’t ever let a doctor make you feel belittled.
Many prayers for you both… hopefully she can be healthy soon!!

Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii (# 17), Dec. 31, 1930: “The primary end of marriage is the procreation and the education of children.”
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Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii (# 54), Dec. 31, 1930:
“Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural powers and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.”
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Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii (# 59), Dec. 31, 1930: “For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial right there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider SO LONG AS THEY ARE SUBORDINATED TO THE PRIMARY END and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.”
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NFP subordinates the primary end of marriage to other things by deliberately attempting to avoid children (i.e., to avoid the primary end) while having marital relations. NFP therefore inverts the order intended by God. It does the very thing that Pope Pius XI solemnly teaches may not lawfully be done. And this point refutes all of the arguments made by those who defend NFP; for all of the arguments made by those who defend NFP focus on the marriage act itself, while they ignore the fact that it makes no difference if a couple does not interfere with the act itself if they subordinate or thwart the primary PURPOSE of marriage.
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When a married couple goes out of their way to avoid children, by deliberately avoiding the fertile times and restricting the marriage act exclusively to infertile times, they are committing a sin against the natural law – they are sinning against the God whom they know sends life. NFP is, therefore, a sin against the natural law, since God is the author of life and NFP thwarts His designs.

When married in 1970 we were at the cusp of the Women’s Movement following the “sexual revolution” of the late 60’s. What confusion reigned! In our early marriage we began BC pills for a year then quit. We had our 3 children within 5 years. For us our kids were and still are a light in our lives. At that point there was a lot of information coming out about the “abortifacient” aspects of the pill. We didn’t think we could afford more children on an Army sergeant’s salary & our priest told us at that time that the teachings of the Church were the perfect goal of each person, but one had to decide basically how close to perfect they could be. Total ambiguity! Anyway, we concluded if contraception could cause an unintended abortion we wanted to avoid it at all costs. We decided then on sterization (vascectomy) as we knew we would avoid what we thought to be a graver sin… We would avoid further pregnancies but also not cause the of killing an unborn child unknowingly.  Terrible decision to do either. The guilt never goes away that we closed ourselves to God’s gift of life. By doing so our sex life became almost non-existant.  There is a spirituality intertwined when sex is open to life that we didn’t realize we had set ourselves up to lose. It reminds me now of Eve in the garden. Just one bite of the apple ....  After 35 years of a good marriage, I was in my mid-50’s and had a hysterectomy for prolapsed uterus. With no further possibility for pregnancy naturally and for valid reasons, the guilt finally lifted. There are many “life- giving” aspects to sex in marriage - at different stages and ages. When young in marriage the sexual encounter naturally brings the possibility of bringing new lives into the picture.  But truly the bond between spouses is strengthened also emtionally and physically. Contracepting actually inhibits the bonding between spouses on a physiological level.  It interrupts the oxytocin release in the female body that helps cement the emotional bond during sexual intimacy. That is the same hormone released during nursing that bonds mother to baby. We would encourage couples based on our experience to do things the right way- God’s way as revealed in the Church’s teaching and in JPII-s Theology of the Body. Now at 43 years of marriage and in our 60’s we embark on guilt-free intimacy but if we’ d listened to Mother Church early on we would have avoided 30 years of suffering for our sin. We miss the thought of the children that could have been.  And we miss the deeper love we would have experienced In our marriage by living guilt- free in accordance with God’s perfect will.

@James: Boy, I wish I could agree that “The fact that this medicine is also used for birth control is irrelevant.” It has seemed to me, over many years of being a user of medical services, that even pretty conscientious Christian physicians have been trained to prefer treatments that have a contraceptive side effect for many conditions.

Have you noticed the similarities between Planned Parenthood (the world’s largest abortion provider) and Natural Family Planning? Artificial contraceptives and abortifacients are found under store aisles marked “Family Planning.” Like abortionists, family planners consider children as something undesirable, at least temporarily; whereas the true faithful have always considered them as an undeniable blessing from God Himself, planned by His providence from all eternity. “Behold, children are the inheritance of the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward… Blessed is the man whose desire is filled with them; he shall not be confounded…” (Psalm 126:3,5).
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In publications promoting NFP, the fertile period of the wife is sometimes classified as “not safe” and “dangerous,” as though generating new life were considered a serious breach of national security and a little infant a treacherous criminal! This is truly abominable.
Could it be more clear that those who subscribe to this type of behavior and this method shut God and children out and replace them with their own selfish agenda?
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http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/42_NFP.pdf

You must also see many victims that were misled by the Second Vatican Council’s utter disregard of doctrine and discipline.  There was no problem with this issue in the years before the council, and evangelization may never regain its peak level at the hands of Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen in the Forties and Fifties when every Catholic still believed in the Real Presence.  Sadly, that is no longer the case thanks in part I suspect to corruption of thr Eucharist by non-consecrated hands. The council was hijacked by dissidents.

@Richard A: That may be. I am not a doctor.

Others have commented on the medical issues. My post assumes the treatment is good medicine and only comments on the moral implications of this course of treatment.

We will always have the cross with us in this life.  It is so sad that our culture has produced a population in fear of children, as if THEY are the cross!
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My third and fourth children have a totally different attitude about college than the first two.  They know that their success depends on *them*.  Their success is totally up to the choices they make.
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Our kids go to public schools now.  The quality is excellent.
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We eat out less.  I cook healthier meals from scratch.  We do less organized sports, we take walks, hike and swim at the beach—it’s free.  We pack picnics.  We take advantage of free tickets to film festival children’s movies. We go to “cheap night” at the movies on Tuesday. The kids bring home passes to the marine center, and the Natural History museum.  The Art museum is free once a week. We have gone over a year now on one car!  I shop once a week at the dollar store (where else can you get a $1 pregnancy test? lol).  We go to happy hour on Friday night and order great six dollar tapas.  Our older kids earn their pocket money by babysitting.  When we can’t go out we light incense and candles and play great music.
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If I got a “JOB”, the government would take about half the money, I’d need to pay an arm and a leg on daycare; we’d get a nice house, another car, some better computers, we’d go on better vacations, I’d buy that cute daisy bikini at Janie and Jack for my daughter, those boots my older daughter has been lusting after, that video game my kid has been saving up for…
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But a new baby would become a “threat” to our “elevated” lifestyle.
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I’ll never be a “power wife”, or an “alpha female”.  (No thanks).  We march to our own drum.  (I leave even the jaded obgyn at the clinic dumbfounded.)  It’s fine.  It really is.  We are not Duggars, or straitlaced Mormons.  We are immersed in the culture, we aren’t hiding in a Catholic Ghetto. (Sometimes I long for this a bit, but they’d probably kick me out).
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I would have freaked out if I had been introduced to the amount of children my body was capable of producing, if it had become a numbers game, on my wedding night.  Life shouldn’t be approached this way.  Every time we became too ambitious for material things, it made us miserable.
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We are very, very happy.  We have a big, unplanned family.  No, I’m not ashamed of this.  I spaced them with ecological breastfeeding and a smattering of NFP.
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God does allow us a sweet amount of heaven, even on this side of the veil—if we let Him.

I recommend finding out about the ‘mechanisms’ of contraception. THe blanket term really obfuscates what is going on in a womans body. THese are strong steroid-based hormones. Most are carcinogens when artificially introduced to the body. This knowledge will help people undersand the arguments the Chruch makes. I draw a comparison to abortion. It was an easier process to promote before ultrasound and before we knew what was happening in the womb. Now that we understand more, I think the center of mass has shifted towards life. Ironically, this ignorance of how the broad category of drugs comprising contraception and the resistnace around having ultrasounds, information, etc. is promoted by NARAL and PP. And they call themselves Pro-woman? I dont get that impression.

NFP is not birth control, unless simply abstaining=birth control. Also there is no such thing as natural birth control (other than menopause?) so the term artificial birth control seems to be redundant, I think.

We use NFP because of health reasons and if I get pregnant it truly is a life or death situation. However, I think NFP is is entirely appropriate for many other cases that to others outside a marriage might seem unjustified. No one has the right to look in on a marriage and judge their reasons for spacing. What happens in the marriage bed is between the couple and God.  I’ve had one full term pregnancy post the time I was told ‘you can’t get pregnant ever again or you’ll die!’ and I’m not going to lie, it was scary and difficult. However, that pregnancy was a time of great spiritual growth for me and my family. I learned to trust that He was in control, not me and I had to face death knowing I might be leaving 7 kids motherless and my husband a widower. But I leaned on the saints (especially St. Gianna) and learned what it means to surrender my will to His. I mean, perhaps their salvation depended upon me being gone, who’s to say that wasn’t part of His plan, ouch! Anyway two years have gone by now and was as it worth it? YES! I learned how much I was keeping back from God, how much I was letting fear keep me from truly loving and living. This affected not just my attitude towards fertility but my whole life. My faith is no longer in a compartment that I can choose to open only if it’s convienient/pretty/uplifting/easy. So-we use still NFP and continue to trust and also sacrifice through the abstaining part, offering it up for the salvation of souls and for our children’s vocations and holiness. And no, it is NOT easy. It is difficult, it is a *sacrifice* after all, but a very worthy one that God honors.  I pray for those that are struggling to trust God in this-it is hard, make no mistake. God bless you!

BTW, Sue who posted at 2.40 EST and has 3 children whose husband was sterilized against her wishes is a different Sue than myself. I also have 3 children and my spouse also did the sterilization at his insistence. We are two different people, just many similar coincidences. However, I am probably 30 years older than she. Maybe you can change my name to Sue, West Coast.

Thank you for this.  My husband and I are both cradle Catholics.  We had a radical irreversible vasectomy at 25, after our second child.  We conceived both children inspire of the use of contraceptives and our families urged us to get “fixed”, and we felt any alternative was grossly negligent.  The vast majority of families in our parishes had 3 kids or less. I was teaching at the time and our 9th graders were taught that more than 2 was environmentally and financially criminal.  We truly didnt know better.  Regardless,  I still seriously regret it, and take responsibility for my part of the decision.  It weighs so heavily on my heart.  I confessed it and the priest curtly said,“it is a little late now”... I left the confessional crying… I know that contraception has been nothing but one lie after another… The only truth I have found was the one I didn’t know my church taught.

“I’ve long believed that natural family planning should be pitched more as an alternative lifestyle than as just another method of birth control.”

That “alternative lifestyle” you’re talking about would be recognized by your older readers as everyday Catholicism. ;-) Thanks, Jennifer, as always, for an excellent article.

Oops. Some confusion on prior post due to fact that my original post isn’t yet in the postings. Since entering the “code” in an attempt to submit the text, there was an error message and my original message is not visible. Anyway, if it appears as just plain “Sue”  - my original post begins by talking about when my hubby and I married in 1970 amidst the confusion of the women’s movement and the post sexual revution of the 60’s.  I am now calling myself “Sue - west coast.”

Sandy Malia - Except that NFP is simply refers to various methods of gathering information. Nothing more, nothing less.  Despite procreation being the primary end of marriage, it is not necessary, nor required by the Church (or God for that matter) for a married couple to have intercourse EVERY TIME a woman is fertile.  It is, likewise, not sinful or deliberately frustrating the natural powers of conjugal love by having intercourse when infertile.  On the contrary, using the NATURAL POWERS of a woman’s cycle, found by gathering natural information regarding said cycle is working WITH God’s plan, not frustrating it.  It is perfectly NATURAL for a woman to be both fertile and infertile at times during her cycle. Refraining from intercourse is not sinful (Considering MARY did it for the entire duration of her marriage, I’m thinking we’re okay for a week to 10 days!) Your implication is that couples should ONLY have intercourse when the woman is fertile.  Since I’m currently pregnant with baby #6, I resent the notion that I shouldn’t have relations with my husband, because I’m not fertile. I’m step down off my soap box now.

I love this article, and especially your quote at the end: “You are right to be freaked out, because when you embrace this Catholic teaching, it’s going to turn your life upside down. You will lose a certain amount of control—not because it will be taken from you, but because you’ll find that you didn’t want it as much as you thought you did. Your relationship with your husband will change. Your relationship with your kids (both existing and future) will change. Your relationship with your own body will change. Your relationship with God will probably undergo the biggest change of all. I can’t promise you that it will be easy, but I can promise that you’ll never regret it, and that when you look back on your life, you’ll see it as one of the best decisions you ever made.” Brilliant.

My husband and I have been using NFP for five years. I have two healthy children who are about two years apart, and our third child, the first “surprise,” was born in December. The experience of having two beautiful children had prepared me to be incredibly excited—albeit a little afraid, at first—for the speedy arrival of baby number 3. She was perfectly healthy, she was born, my husband and I fell in love with her, and one hour later, her heart stopped. The neonatal team was only able to resuscitate her for a few hours, during which she received the grace of baptism.

We don’t know why she died. But no one could convince me, now, that it would have been better for her never to have been conceived, never to have been given to us. The hour we spent with her was incredibly precious; and I would not give up a single month I had with her in my womb. She was an unexpected, beautiful gift to us. We are so grateful that God gave her life, however short.

It’s true that using NFP can lead to “death and burial,” but that’s because it means being open to life! And life, despite what most of us Americans believe these days, ALWAYS involves death. It always catches up with you in the end. What’s important is living in such a way that you, and those you love, need not fear death.

I am not afraid.

This one of the areas of morality that I think the Orthodox handle far better than the RCC. I believe this cannot be a one-size-fits-all teaching (like abortion can be). I think a couple needs to come to a decision based on what is best for them and in the Orthodox Church that usually means with the help of a priest spiritual advisor who knows them very well. NFP doesn’t work for every woman’s menstrual cycle if she has abnormalities. And pregnancy for some carries a much greater risk than for others. No, this cannot be a one-size-fits-all teaching. I think some priests have wrongly advised those who could easily follow NFP that they didn’t have to. But I also think there are priests who have advised artificial means based on their evaluation of individual circumstances and I do not fault those priests at all for exercising individual spiritual care.

@Mom of Teenager

Don’t put your child on birth control. It is an awful corrupting thing. Start to have her chart for the Creighton Model and then take the chart to a Creighton Model physician. They can figure out what is going on and resolve the issue versus MASK the issue with the Pill!!!!

Dear Grieving mother,
Your post is so moving.  I have walked this path of pain, and came to the same conclusions.  When we are asked to bear this cross it comes with a powerful grace that changes our orientation toward life and death forever. Thank you for bearing witness to this.

Grieving Mother - I am so sorry for your loss.  Thank you for your beautiful words.

The flip side, so to speak, of this is that young men (and old men) are encouraged by the media—-and the liberal view—-to have as much sex as possible, even if it is irresponsible.

It’s interesting to read these comments, and see how deeply women think about this matter. Certainly men, turned thoughtless, rarely or never do.

In the 30 years I’ve been a Catholic I have heard ONE homily on contraception from our local priest and he was so nervous he just assumed we all knew the church teaching and just told us to follow it! We DON’T understand anything about it becasue we haven’t been taught it. Nor have we been taught about Church teaching on same sex attraction, pornography, sexual abuse,divorce or any other important topic of the day. I know because I’ve had to teach myself, but I don’t have the audience my local parish priest does. What a waste. I pray the Holy Spirit will rain down the gifts of courage to our American priests and help them to speak up.

James wrote: “Few people know this, but the Church considers the Pill temporary sterilization, not contraception. I think some Catholics get so caught up in talking about contraception, that they forget the very powerful and very reasonable arguments against sterilization, both temporary and permanent. Contraception alters the act, sterilization alters the act and the body. Contraception violates only the 6th commandment, sterilization both the 5th and the 6th. Sterilization is a far more serious problem. Getting couples away from the pill, even if they do not follow Church teaching perfectly, is a significant moral improvement.”

I have never heard this before, is ti true?

Great post.

I am not a Catholic woman.  I wasn’t raised with the traditions.  I have strong faith in God and believe myself to be a practicing Christian.  To that end, I am married to a strong Catholic man.  A man whose faith is one of the greatest things that lead me to him.  He has such a deep relationship with the Lord.  He also chose natural family planning for our family.  A tough decision for a girl who thought she would get married, get on birth control and plan her babies.  I now have 2 beautiful babies and 1 more on the way.  Did I mention we haven’t even been married 5 years!  NFP is one of the biggest arguments in our house.  I don’t feel it bringing us closer together, I only see it bringing us more children.  I love my children, I just don’t want 10 of them.  I wish the Church would reconsider this choice, I don’t feel more free or closer to God.  I feel stressed, confused and scared about having more children than we can afford.  Did I mention my husband’s main employer is the Catholic church as a youth director.  If the church wants us to be “open” to having children maybe it could pay for one of us to stay home so we can raise these children we are “open” to.  Currently I am the breadwinner and the baby maker with no choice of not making more babies besides no intimacy with my husband, as NFP is super hard to track after having a child, or disobeying him and going on birth control.  Again, I wish the Catholic church would reconsider this decision as I am more Catholic in this than many Catholic women and it’s the biggest struggle in my marriage.

@Just a guy,  does your wife know exactly why you’re refraining?  Have you said to her, kindly, in plain English that “I love you incredibly, too much to ever harm you.  I believe contracepting is harming our marriage and our souls.  I desire you deeply, and because I desire your happiness even more, I won’t initiate sex with you as long as we’re contracepting.  I couldn’t live with the knowledge that I had hurt you in that way.  I hope that someday we can move past this as a couple, and renew our sexual relationship, because I miss that.  I miss you.  And I hope you can see that I’m not doing this to be distant or cold, but only because I love you, and I’m willing to sacrifice in this way for you.”

If you haven’t said that, kindly, in English, often, odds are she has NO IDEA why you’re being “cold and distant,” and feels TOTALLY ABANDONED and alone!  Please don’t let your wife feel alone like that!  Don’t let that distance grow up in the heart of your marriage!

There’s a lot of misinformation about the Church’s teaching, and equally a lot of misinformation about why. I kknow plenty of Catholics who love their faith with all their hearts, but they have fallen into the secular way of thinking. They see the other Protestants contracepting and don’t make the connections of difference. The vast majority argue that contraception was outlawed by doctrine not because of some law of God, but because in the early days the leadership wanted more Catholics to be born!

Im 31, was fully Catholic schooled, Mass each week and on HDOs, et cetera, and I have NEVER heard a homiliy about the Church’s teaching on contraception. I’ve heard plenty of homilies on energy efficient lightbulbs and our stewartedship of the earth. -_-’ Priorities ay?

Pius XII on the Pill: (The original is on the Vatican website, but only in Spanish.)

http://www.pamphlets.org.au/australia/acts1454.html

@Oregon Catholic

I have a letter from the The Patriarch of Constantinople. And, it declares without a hint of doubt that Orthodoxy is officially, absolutely, 100% in step with the Roman Church in regards to abortion, contraception, and interruption.

That Orthodoxy is anti-marriage/pro-contraception is an enormous myth spurned on by the likes of Michael Dukakis. He who sponsered the first bill to de-criminalised such evil.

Grieving Mother:  I am so sorry for your loss.  As someone who has lost three babies to miscarriage and would have loved to have had the chance to hold them,  I greatly appreciate that you treasure the one hour you had with your baby (plus the 9 months that you carried her).  That being said, I can’t imagine having to say goodbye to a baby after 9 months or pregnancy.  It was hard enough after 3 months.  My heart goes out to you, and I am so grateful for your pro-life message.

@Amanda: That’s frustrating when you can’t figure out fertility. We’ve been there. But “getting on birth control” is not the answer. Been there. Done that.

You may want to talk to your instructor about your problems. You can ask if another method may be more helpful. iusenfp.com has information on all of them.

Also, some of the non-Catholic/secular/feminist “fertility awareness” sites have some great information about why NFP is good for women’s health. Some women HATE Catholic teaching, but love the secular NFP book Taking Charge of Your Fertility.

As you are not Catholic you may feel more comfortable learning the method from a non-Catholic instructor or non-sectarian organization.

Finally, if things are putting a strain on your marriage (I noticed HE chose NFP for YOU) do consider marital counseling.

My original note posted as “Sue” on Feb 6, 2013 3:11pm EDT. I am now going as “Sue -west coast” in order to differentiate the two Sue’s. I am “Sue - west coast” & my original post appears 6 spaces below “Sue,” who posted at 2:40pm EDT. Sue is probably young enough to be my daughter. Reading her story, she sounds like a wounded soul as I was…. still am. It’s a lifelong process of learning to forgive yourself and your spouse. You were innocent of the deed but still suffer the consequences… sort of like we suffer the effects of Original Sin even though we didn’t eat the apple as Eve did.  You seem like a young woman seeking to please God by living His will. You can’t turn back the clock, but you can share your experience to help others avoid the same pain -just as you are obviously doing. Make the days ahead count with loving the kids you have, and loving and forgiving your husband. God is surely bringing new life to you both spiritually and emotionally since you are now talking together about this. God is good and His good work in you will certainly bear much fruit as you keep your trust in Him.

To Sandy Malia God doesn’t waste anything..during the infertile phase of the woman’s cycle cells lining the vaginal walls absorb chemical present in the seminal fluid. These are similar to stem cells in a way and prepare the woman’s body to accept a baby should she become pregnant. The higher the level of these chemicals in the woman’s blood stream the healthier the pregnancy.( this has been know since the 19th century) OCP’s actually change this process in ways that may make conception and full term delivery more difficult. Our Awesome God has so much for us should we be open to receiving it! A couple would have a very hard time using NFP in a totally selfish way. All the Church documents in the world will not open a human heart but God can and his love for us and His Designs in our world and bodies are easily seen even with little faith. Selfishness is rampant in today’s culture but so is wanting to be healthy and loving. So using what my dear friend Dr Hanna Klaus calls ” bottoms up theology” NFP can lead couples toward a holy, healthy, family life.

Hello Amanda,

Many of your fears I too had as a newly married Catholic 15 years ago. My husband came from a family of 10 children and was used to babies, and I came from a family of 2 and never LIKED BABIES.

I was afraid to use NFP, but I did. My husband would have been fine with birth control. My body would have been debilitated by the hormonal birth control, and our souls would suffer by using any other type of birth control. If God is the Lord of your life, he is also the Lord of your fertility.

God has blessed us enormously, and I learned to love babies, children, and now teenagers. We have four wonderful, talented, and challenging little images of God- 8, 11, 13, and 15.  I so wanted more, but was unable to conceive after my last child.

Having four children has made me less selfish, and made me depend on God more. God has seen to it that my husband received raises after I quit my job with our 4th child.  I still have a way to go on the holiness, because I am not a Mother Teresa…...

Yet, we’re all called to holiness and to be saints, yes?

Above all, I could never have had the transformation I’ve had without the loving help of my husband who helps with the children tremendously. The best words that come out of his mouth have always been, “What can I do to help.” His mother trained him correctly, and our family reaps the benefits!

I will pray that God will help you and your husband. Perhaps he needs to do youth ministry part time and get a higher paying job.

As a young adult in the Church, I have to say that education about NFP is out there and getting better, even at a young age. As a college student now, I have known not only the Church’s teaching behind contraception and NFP for years, but also gotten a full explanation of why. My diocese does an incredible job of supporting and teaching high schoolers about these important issues, and it seems to me like at least in one side of Oregon, things are looking up.

Yep, one reason it’s getting better is because the JPII generation is now teaching it to their children.

Thank God for EWTN and the Register, along with This Rock and Catholic Answers for educating a generation when often our pastors had their heads in the sand.

Now a younger generation of priests is NOT AFRAID.

I actually heard a homily on “birth control” twice with two visiting young priests. A few of us ladies THANKED them after Mass.

Let’s pray that the good new of NFP is spread, and spread it to our friends and those who will listen.

@Amanda-

Here’s something I found on the web from Fr. Vincent Serpa- “The Church allows a Catholic to continue relations with a spouse who contracepts so long as it is the contracepting spouse who is actually practicing it. It remains the duty of the Catholic who does not want to contracept to explain the Church’s teaching on the matter and to continue to encourage the other to stop.”

Wow, what an absolutely fantastic post. What you say strikes me as so true, as one who came into the Church from a non-Catholic background, and from my experience of other women.

Does it violate copyright law if one were to print this with the site/author info showing and leave it around the Church for women to read? If so, would you make an “ok to distribute” flyer of it and let us download it to share? Or start writing pamphlets or something. Your gentle, understanding tone is just what these women need IMO. Not everyone reads blogs - we have to leave the info around to pique their curiosity.

Amanda - I admire your tenacity in respecting your husband’s faith enough to follow through with NFP.  And I’m sure it hasn’t been easy.  Though your not Catholic, you said you do consider yourself a faithful practicing Christian.  So, with a gentle reminder, I will say, God does provide.  I say this from experience.  And that I feel your pain.  My husband and I have been married for over 12 years, and while we did not have 3 children within the first 5 years of our marriage, mostly because I was too young and naive to understand the detrimental effects, both spiritually and physically to say no to the pill, I do understand what you’re going through.  Today, one of my children turned 3. He has a younger brother who will be 17 months tomorrow, and 1 brother who is due in June.  So that’s 3 children in a little over 3 years. I also have an 11 1/2 year old, an 8 year old, and a 5 1/2 year old.  I am a SAHomeschoolingM and my husband, like yours, works for the Church.  And somehow, we survive, but only by the Grace of God. “Jesus, I Trust in You. Jesus, I Trust in You. Jesus, I Trust in You.” A simple but powerful prayer, which has helped me, especially through this surprise pregnancy.

For those seeking NFP classes taught in the context of the Theology of the Body and the human side of this “alternative lifestyle” and its challenges, go to www.ccli.org and click on “Find a Class”.  Enter your zip code, and you’ll have someone local to talk to!

Amanda,
I’ve noticed by reading com boxes for a little while now that many women have a real terror of going from three kids (the outer limit of what society considers legit) to four.  None of us want to be the subject of others’ raised eyebrows.  Where you are at right now was the most difficult stretch of the road, for me.  Having three young children (with some help!)was truly harder than the bunch that I have right now.  I have also been in your shoes somewhat, in that my husband and I were not truly on the same page regarding artificial birth control, at your stage.  My husband comes from a quasi atheistic background. He agreed with the Catholic “ideal”, but just didn’t think it was possible all the time in practice.  Today, he would tell you that this went right to the root of his problem. At the worst point, after a huge business disappointment, and on the advice of friends,(considering my strong Catholic beliefs) he had a vasectomy behind my back.  The problem is that I had been the one who changed, before he had a chance or was willing to “catch up”.  He was Catholic, but a new one, and not fully committed to a truly Catholic lifestyle, in mind, body and soul. He let fear and lack of trust guide him.  Doing anything behind the back of one’s spouse is a huge red flag that the relationship is on the rocks. It doesn’t always feel this way, as we might still feel a lot of love for our spouse.  It is so important that we not fool ourselves when the symptoms of problems are there. By the sheer grace of God, by coincidence, I found out about my husband’s vasectomy, the month it was done, by the doctor who performed it.  Half of our living children were conceived *after* a reversed vasectomy.  The very thought of this horrifies both of us more than I can begin to describe.  I can’t even think about it for too long because it will literally make me shake.
As somebody else mentioned, it sounds to me like you and your husband have some very serious issues to work out considering the pressures on you, and the fact that you are needed as a breadwinner.
My husband and I worked through our differences.  We are totally and completely of one mind and heart now.  This didn’t happen until he learned to trust God completely.  We try not to dwell on the less happy years when we struggled with these issues.  We have always loved each other, but now our love is so powerful that it’s hard to put words to it.  It doesn’t even remotely resemble the “first blush” of love when we thought we were madly in love.  It is deep, trusting, and passionate.  God dwells at the center of it.

Not only do I wish every priest, bishop and teacher of the faith would read Jennifer’s article, I also wish everyone could read all the wonderful comments posted here.  It gives one hope - God Bless you all!

When I found out, much to my shock, that a person very close to me had had himself sterilized, I meditated deeply on its significance.  I realized clearly that sterilization and contraception is saying to God “I/we don’t want you here.”  For God is Life and so contraception/sterilization is the exclusion of God from the relationship. 

It is also important to see that though there are many more obvious signs of the culture of death - from abortion and euthanasia to the breakdown of marriages and neighborhoods and communities - contraception and its mentality is at its very heart.

As for the teaching/preaching against contraception - we are in the midst of a plague.  If the church were (literally) on fire, would silence from those responsible for its protection be acceptable?  I have been a daily communicant for nearly twenty years at various parishes in various dioceses.  As others have said here, I have heard nary a word, even a mention, about contraception (et. al.).  How happy the devil must be. 

(But, again, i am glad to hear of the witness of the young priests mentioned here.  And, finally, reading through all these posts, I couldn’t help but repeatedly think of a word my father always told me, “It ain’t easy.”  I guess there aren’t many fathers left who tell their children that - I’m glad to hear it from many people here.)

Anna-lisa:
You are no more a model for most women than is Claire. Most women HAVE to have a job or their kids don’t eat and bills don’t get paid.
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Praise God that you have had a comfortable, happy life, but don’t blame everyone else for what they do to survive.
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Same for Jennifer.

“Sandy Malia” (lol) insult all you want, I always consider it a compliment when I feel infernal hooves trampling on my life’s work.  Last time I checked, Claire is a nurse as well as a Mom.  You’re just mad because she’s honest enough to expose you for what you are—a troll.  Poor Claire, she’s so polite, and has been so patient with you while you do your favorite troll-thing: insult, insult, and insult.  Who abused you man?  Where does that giant chip come from?  BTW, you preach a ton from your soapbox of liberal secular humanism but you have never once stated what *you* do for a living (or why you always use female user names heh)

Elestethane.
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As usual on this site (at least Claire is an example) you are splitting hairs. As the above quotes I pasted explained, NFP is gathering information for the sole purpose of choosing an opportune time to have sex without procreation.
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“NFP is only permitted under certain conditions. In addition, if it is used to avoid children, there must be a serious reason for not wanting to have a child. Without these conditions, it is gravely sinful, as Pope Pius XII said.”
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http://www.catholicapologetics.info/morality/family/nfamp.htm
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“The reasons serious enough to allow the practice of periodic abstinence (or NFP) were given by Pope Pius XII. These reasons do not change with time.
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They are the following:
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serious danger of health to the mother
serious problems in the child to be conceived
very serious financial or social condition
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It’s not enough that the couple themselves believe their condition is serious. They must also have the advice of a good Catholic-minded doctor, if it is a medical question; and the permission of a good Catholic priest nefore they can start practicing periodic abstinence.”
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So NFP is not only contraception, but periodic abstinence within marriage is also wrong because the purpose of marriage is to produce new life.

@ Mother of Teenager:  Please do not let some doctor put your daughter on birth control pills for any reason whatsoever.  When I was in law school, and working full-time at the same time, my health began to suffer—excruciating migraines, irregular cycles, etc.  My doctor put me on the birth control pill as a way to “regularise” my cycles.  What a mistake!!!
One of the lesser-known contraindications of the birth control pill is that if a female has any of a very large number of health conditions, including “vascular disease,” she should not take the pill.  My blood pressure went up to 300+/200+; I developed “cluster migraines” and I almost died.  I was hospitalized for 4 days and it took several months after going off the pill for the cluster migraines to go away completely.  It took a differnt doctor to figure out that it was the b.c. pill (the only change I had made recently) which was the trigger for the cluster migraines. 
I would very strongly recommend that you and your daughter change doctors at the earliest possible opportunity, as both the short-term and long-term side effects of the birth control pill, in my opinion, make it a very ill-considered option for anybody.  As other commentators have mentioned, yoru daughter obviously has other health issues which need to be diagnosed competently, and addressed properly.

I grew up in and around families that only use NFP and attended one of the most “orthodox” Catholic colleges in the nation.

All I have to say is this: several decades into marriages, these NFP and JPII young Catholics that everybody gets so excited about are struggling and mightily.  They present a happy face to the world, but I’ve known this group long enough that I see what goes on behind the scenes, and it is often not pretty.

The truth is, there is no easy recipe for happy marriage and happy families, and NFP or contraception, everybody struggles.  To pretend otherwise simply turns the rest of the world off.  I say be honest about it. 

For some people NFP rocks, for some people it wreaks havoc on a marriage.  I suppose it is the same for other forms of birth control as well (and yes, NFP is birth control, as is abstinence, as is the Pill, etc, etc—-it’s just that NFP and abstinence are licit and the other forms are not).  For most, abstinence wreaks terrible havoc on a marriage.  The Pill wreaks terrible havoc on a woman’s health.  And so on and so on.

The bottom line is that you can’t do an end run around Mother Nature and not pay a price for it (and yes, I would call NFP an end run around Mother Nature just as much as any other form of birth control; as a woman for whom the sexual experience is completely different when fertile vs. non-fertile, I can tell you that there is nothing “natural” about NFP; it’s a “necessary evil” for lack of a better term), one way or another.  The sooner everybody accepts that and admits it, the better off we are.

I personally could have handled the stress of NFP much better had I just been told that up front instead of being told it was the best thing since sliced bread.  I think much more honesty in this matter is needed.

“Why won’t the advice of any doctor or priest suffice?

Because today most doctors have the contraception mentality. They openly promote artificial contraception (which is always morally wrong), and would have no problem with a married couple practicing NFP for any reason or no reason at all. Many would even consider you as foolish for not doing so.

Unfortunately, the same mentality is often prevalent among priests. Although many do advise against artificial contraception, they often promote NFP without any regard for the conditions and reasons given by the Catholic Church which are necessary to practice it. It is hailed as a great thing for married couples. It is treated as something normal to married life, when in fact it is not.

Why do many say that NFP is such a good thing?

Several reasons. Firstly, they take the stand that married couples today are going to practice some kind of family planning or birth regulation regardless of the fact that it is usually against the law of God. Therefore, to make them avoid artificial contraception which is condemned, they widely promote NFP as the answer.

Also, they claim that a couple’s marital relationship is strengthened by the use of NFP. They even state that most couples claim it has a positive effect on their marriages. However, we often find benefits for the things we want to have.

Is it true that practicing NFP can actually help one’s marriage?

No. Although the practice of periodic abstinence may help some couples learn to respect each other more, and communicate better, it is often gained at a severe price. How many in practicing NFP fall into sins against chastity? How many end up denying their spouse who would really like to make love, simply because it is not the right time of the month? How many times does the practice of NFP put a strain on marriages? Reports and figures are never given to such questions as these.

In addition, the good effects stated above could be gained by the same couples who practice NFP if they would live a normal marital life. This is because sacrifice is built into every marriage. There are always occasions when spouses must refrain from the marital act due to illness, the birth of a child, travel away from home, or any number of reasons. The same occasions for self-control, respect, and improved communications are present for all couples due to the normal circumstances of married life. Despite all its adherents, practicing NFP does not create an improved normal marital life. It is an abnormal practice, which can only be justified in certain serious conditions.”
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“Many of the difficulties today among married couples which involve the acceptance of having a child, or more children, are linked to a lack of trust in God. We live in a world where we want to control and plan every aspect of our lives. However, there are certain things that we cannot or must not control. Conceiving children is an example. No married couple is in total control of having children, even if they want to. Many would like to and cannot. Others judge that they know better than their good Father in heaven how many children they should have and when. If married couples would only abandon themselves more into the hands of God by living normal marital lives, and trust Him completely, they would find a peace and happiness which only God can give. Our good Father in heaven knows just how many children each married couple should have and can handle. All He asks is our trust to bring about His plan.”
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I’m not making this up you know—these quotes are from http://www.catholicapologetics.info/

They have a really pretty startup animation.

Anna Lisa:  as you have probably noticed, “Sandy”‘s latest thing is to chastise us for being poor models for women. Ever the hypocrite, she recently asked me a question (that she herself refuses to answer) about what good I have done in the world, and then criticized me for answering her question!  But as you pointed out, her criticism should be taken as a compliment, considering the source.  And yet she, who can’t even come up with one good thing she has done for others, criticizes us for being poor models.  And now she thinks she’s the authority on Church teaching regarding procreation in marriage!  It’s a good thing that she fails miserably in her understanding of theology, as she does in her understanding of most things.  Because if the Church actually taught what she thinks it teaches, you and I would have to get very busy making sure that we have relations with our husbands as much as humanly possible during our fertile time, since according to her it’s a sin to abstain during times of fertility.  As Earl would say, “hilarious”!

There is an herb called “chasteberry”, also called agnus castix or Vitex. It regulates a woman’s cycle by balancing the endocrine system, most notably the thymus and hypothalmus. It is all natural and not a contraceptive at all. In fact, I used it to restore my fertility when I was unable to conceive again after the birth of my first child. It also cured an almost psychotic PMS that I was experiencing. It can be found or ordered at health food stores.

I came to the conclusion, a long time ago, that it’s because we as Catholics are not praying enough for our priest and bishops for the graces they need to speak up. Before, the priests were going through the post Vatican adaptation and most were not taught at length about this. Now, most priests are well-formed, but don’t have the courage to speak about this topic. It seems like they think it’s a touchy subject, women will protest, or it’s not something that they don’t have an official program to use as a model to teach this. Mostly, I think it’s the need for the courage to talk on this “touchy” subject. A priest usually feels more comfortable referring someone to so many resources, but they don’t take the bull by its horn to tackle the matter. These priest need our prayers, because it is their responsiblity to make sure their flock knows what they need to know to enter the Kingdom of God. I wish I had also been taught the what, why, spiritual and rational explanations to NFP or chastity, in general.

“Poor Claire, she’s so polite, and has been so patient with you while you do your favorite troll-thing: insult, insult, and insult.  Who abused you man?  Where does that giant chip come from?  BTW, you preach a ton from your soapbox of liberal secular humanism but you have never once stated what *you* do for a living (or why you always use female user names heh)”
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I’m glad you read my post about praising Claire—she needs it. When you have to label someone a “troll” because you can’t justify yourself, you really don’t belong on a discussion blog.
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As for my not identifying what I do for a living—I don’t need to explain anything to you. As far as the assumption that I’m a man, that’s your fantasy. The Pope is a man too.

    Natural Family Planning has truly liberated me as a woman and jives with my desire to be in harmony with the environment.  My husband and I have been married for 30 years and have used nothing or NFP to space our children—have had 5 pregnancies of which 2 ended in miscarriage. NFP has forced us to communicate about the most intimate topic that exists, and from there has opened doors to communicate about everything else.
    Young Catholic women are all over this, calling themselves genuine feminists, the definition of which means striving for equality for men and women.  NFP definitely promotes equality when the husband has half the responsibility for planning family size, when he shares in the abstinence, etc.

Someone who has a disdain for Catholics and comes onto Catholic message boards in order to disrupt the discussions, is telling us that we have no place on these threads?  That’s really rich!  We are perfectly capable of justifying ourselves, and have done so.  We call you a troll because you are a troll.  And I did not ask you what you did for a living.  (I already know that you do nothing for a living, because you are a college student.)  I asked you the question that you asked me (which I answered):  “what good have you done in the world?”.  Maybe by the time you graduate your reading comprehension will be better, but I doubt it.

@James Kurt….....Loved your comment that it took Barack Obama to teach we Catholics that contraception is wrong!  I thought he was punishment for sin. And so much more!  God’s ways are amazing!  I wish more people would pray and return to Christian values so we could elect moral leadership!  Or our country will go the way of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Re: Posted by Mom of Teenager on Wednesday, Feb 6, 2013 1:19 PM (EDT):
First of all, keep faith in God second of all call COLFS. They have amazing doctors there and have the latest in medicine that may help with your daughters medical problems.
I too have serious medical issues and was very distraught when my doctor (who had just returned from a convention on womens’ health)only knew of one way to help me and that of course was the pill. I had heard about COLFS, so I called and found out there are definitely more than one way to help my medical issues and none of their ways involve the pill. Look them up online an give them a call right away!!

I am a Type I diabetic and have been for 37 of my 38 years.  I come from a family of 15, and it was with great sorrow that I realized that God’s passive(innate) will made me fertile, but His active(personal in my life) will made me diabetic.  That means I have to prudentially balance the desire to have children with the responsibility to care for them and stay healthy for them and my husband.
NFP is not a “birth control,” it is a lifestyle.  If it is used as a “birth control” method, the mentality is off and the method will not be effective.  NFP respects the way you are made.  You do not sterilize a fertile act if you do not engage in the act…and you find other ways of saying, “I love you.”  There is nothing sexier than a man that practices self-control, or who says “I love you the way you are made, and I will love you in a way that suits God’s will.” We have used NFP to have and to postpone the blessing of a child, as well as to recognize and treat infertility naturally, without even having to consult a doctor.  NFP is recognized by the UN as 99.8% effective.  It is NOT difficult to learn…but it is difficult to accept, in our age of “control”.  Trust.  God has greater plans for us than we could ever imagine.

My two cents…We practiced NFP for years and years and switched to condoms (with withdrawal) several years ago.  We are both still very against chemical contraception due to its abortifacient nature and the detrimental effects it has on women, but have settled with our current method because, after four kids, we honestly and in good conscience do not feel as though having more kids is wise in our particular situation.  Here’s my problem with the NFP theory: it teaches that “by nature” contraceptive sex is divisive.  On the contrary, I would hold that the unitive part of sex comes naturally and biologically through the release of hormones (like oxytocin) which happen whether you are wearing a condom or not.  We both feel EXTREMELY CLOSE after contraceptive sex, and this closeness spills out into mutual respect and love throughout the week.  NOT HAVING SEX, especially for weeks on end, leaves me feeling frustrated and distant from my wife because, BY ITS VERY NATURE, sexual abstinence within marriage is divisive.  Without condoms, we would probably have sex about once a month, and that time would be in my wife’s low “hurry and get it over with” pre-menstrual mode which is typically not emotionally unitive.  As much as we wanted to do it, we found the Church’s rationales lacking when compared to real life and biology.  Personally, I feel as though the Church should teach a “hierarchy of evil” when it comes to contraception, with IUDs and chemical contraceptives on the “absolutely forbidden” list and condoms on the “if you absolutely must, even though it’s not the perfect way” list.  By treating them all the same, couples on the pill feel they’re just as “wrong” as couples using condoms during fertile times (like us).

“NFP is cutting edge modern healthcare but is poorly understood, especially by healthcare professionals.

There was (is?)a Planned Parent office in our area that taught NFP (though they may have called it something else).  Their reasons were 1) it was chemical-free, a big plus for women, 2) very low cost and simple, and 3) encourages the couple to better understand the women’s reproductive cycle and her body.

Some UN aid groups teach it too because of the above, though the marketing of artificial birth control (thanks Big Pharma!) has distorted what NFP really is and is capable of.

Reply to MOM OF TEENAGER.

PLEASE don’t do the pill. Learn from our mistake!!! The pill made me infertile!!!  I am 40. When I had a 2 month long horrific gusher of a cycle at 12 years old, my mom did the only thing she knew. She took me to her gyno. At 12, too small to see inside and what was wrong so the dr put me on the pill and it ‘fixed’ it. From 12 until I got married at 31,( yes I saved myself for my husband), I was on the pill. We got married and were ready to make babies :) so I stopped the pill, forgetting why I was ever on it. My body crashed. It no longer can make hormones on its own. Worked with 40 drs/specialists, including Pope Paul Institute in Omaha. Drs all along said it was safe. No. It’s not. There are no words to describe the immense pain I live in DAILY because of the pill. Emotional and physical. It’s been 9 years since my hormone crash and I just try to survive the day… We can’t have children. My health is my cross in life. Husband and I are blessed as we ‘parent’ through our jobs. My mom feels guilty… Like she’s to blame for us not having kids… I tell her… You did the best you could at the time with the information you had. Today… There are herbs and soooo many natural options. Be informed!! You/your daughter will ALWAYS know whats best… over a dr who may get kickbacks for the scripts they write and practice secular medicine. Best of luck! Christ’s blessings!

Regardless of Claire’s declaration that I’m a troll, I have copied and pasted direct quotes from a Catholic Apologetic site. I tend to agree with these sites over the arguments that NFP is exempt from the Catholic definition of contraception.
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NFP is a loophole for the Catholic decree against “contraception.” You can’t get around of the fact that the Church has declared that marriage is for the purpose of procreation and that it is up to God to determine when conception is achieved. NFP is not a “chemical” that disrupts a woman’s fertility. Still, it is a strategy to promote sexual relations while shifting the odds in favor of not conceiving an unwanted consequence of sex.
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NFP is also a last-ditch effort to keep Catholics from leaving the Church.  It is a presented as a method of “spacing children” which is the reason for birth control in the first place. The “Pill” was not the first method of contraception, and the Church is not condemning Goodyear for producing the rubber for condoms.
http://www.everything-condoms.com/condom_facts/history_of_condoms.htm
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Can you deal with these facts without calling me a troll and shutting me out?

my hubby and i married most 26 yrs ago…we never use contraceptives nor do we use nfp… we had 4 kids, 3 living… we said , ‘LORD, well takw any kids you send us and help us to raise…’

HE did…

I had my mother’s example, grew up with ten siblings, and then had seven children. I’ve never taken one pill. All God’s grace. Every time I see a health professional and say I’m not in any meds at 51 years old, they can’t believe it.
I wouldn’t be happy and fulfilled had I bought into the contraceptive mentality. Was it hard? You bet. My husband and I went through very meager times, it made us better people! Our kids are wonderful people and the rewards are amazing. Mostly going to bed with a clean conscience is priceless. Following Gods will is the ultimate road to freedom and happiness.

I sometimes hear someone, while expressing their love for their children say things like, ” I love my children so much, I can’t imagine my life without them. I would not trade them for the WORLD!”
What he or she dosn’t realize when they say this is that if the contracept in order to have a better lifestyle, they DID trade their unrealized children for much less then the world. You like the 5000 square foot house? You like the newest car?  You could have had a lifelong loving relationship with another child instead.
  One of the most common regrets I have heard people have at the end of their lives is they wish they had had more children. Are you trading your fertility for things that will rot and pass away?  I did and I deeply regret it.

i was one of those women. The nuns at my all girls high school told us to “ignore the old man in Rome” about contraception. Only my Godly husband who attended NRP training with his reluctant fiancee guided me to the truth. Our pre-Cana leaders told us “the Pill works for us so we are going to skip the NFP chapter in the book”.
Thank God we lived this in our marriage and it has been a blessing.
May the women who have been lied to have the courage to seek and live the Gospel of Life.

” You like the 5000 square foot house? You like the newest car?  You could have had a lifelong loving relationship with another child instead.”
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What about “You want to feed your other four kids, pay rent, take care of your sick mother?”
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Why do you think people regret they didn’t have more children? Their lives were not structured so that the family could stay strong if there was an addition. There is no medical care, no child support, no help for families on an income less than a “living wage.” Why do you think contraception is just for the wealthy who don’t want to sacrifice their yacht for another child?

@sandy

I’m sure you have found that interpretation of Catholic doctrine varies, and I wouldn’t use a single site to inform yourself of what the Catholic church *actually* teaches.
The Catholic “apologetic” site you referenced isn’t any more “Catholic” than my comments here.  Moreover, it does not list any references to support its claims.
I suggest that if you want to engage in a meaningful discussion, that you directly refer to specific encyclicals.

Hey, I agree abstinence is the only real way to prevent conception and be Catholic. The Vatican, however, decreed that the institution of marriage is for the sole purpose of procreation and ANY effort to have sex within marriage (let alone out of marriage) that does not have the chance of conception of a child is sinful.
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NFP is planning for when couples can have sex with the least likelihood of conception. Nuff said. The pill was a modern product of a long desired outcome—sex for pleasure without conception. Rhythm method (which is what NFP really is), herbs, condoms, etc. were never addressed as sinful before the evolution of the Pill. Please explain that without labeling me as a troll and ignoring me.
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Your own experience with your happy marriage/life with NFP is not important. Why would NFP be practiced if it were’t for controlling the timing of conception within a marriage? How do you reconcile birth control   by calculating opportunities for sex that tend not to result in conception with Catholic Dogma?

Sandy
You seem to want to make a class issue out of my comments.You are also lecturing a person who raised 4 kids with as little as 30k a year.  My point is that materialism and fear blinds couples (as it did to my wife and I) to the possibilities of larger and happier families.

@Grace

Some unsolicited advice - use what is helpful.  Ignore the rest. 

If you want to use NFP, you can start by learning how to chart your cycles now, especially if you have irregular cycles.  Call the parish office, or the diocese office, and see if they have a list of NFP teachers/classes.
After six or seven years of dating, I would expect that you and your boyfriend are on the same page regarding future life plans (eg the “hopefully” refers to when you’re getting married, rather than if you’re getting married).  If that’s the case, you might want to discuss with your boyfriend whether it makes sense to trigger some of these changes (eg starting a new job) earlier rather than later, especially if you’re planning to work after you have a baby.  (You may need to be employed for a full year before the birth of your baby in order to be eligible for FMLA or paid maternity leave.) 

Sandy/Gloria:  The Vatican decreed no such thing!  You pretense of having any understanding of Catholic teaching on sexuality within marriage is laughable.  By your ridiculous logic, it would be sinful for postmenopausal women to have relations with their husbands, or for women who have had hysterectomies to have relations with their husbands.  And NFP is not the rhythm method (look it up!), and it is not solely for use when the couple has the least chance of conception.  It is also used to achieve pregnancies for those who are having fertility challenges.  If you are so interested in Catholic theology, as Rae said, the Encyclicals and the Catechism are where you will find the official doctrine.  Until then, don’t kid yourself (or think that you’re fooling anyone here) into thinking that you know anything about it.

Dave:  she’s making a class issue out of your comments because she is a troll.  That’s what she does.  She is an angry atheist who spends a great deal of time “researching” Catholic theology so that she can come to these threads and attempt to attack from within.  She makes repeat performances under different names, never owning up to her true identity, so she can play her immature little games.

A very relevant and poignant article. Contraception’s widespread use has brough unbelievable destablization of marriage and has weakened the understanding of conjugal fidelity and fertility.

Mom of Teen…

Another voice suggesting strongly that your daughter not use BCP’s.  I started the “pill” at 16 for medical issues, and not only did it cause later infertility issues, it also made it very easy for me to decide that “being in love” was a good enough reason to begin having sex with my boyfriend….since I didn’t need to worry at all about pregnancy. This was in the 70’s, and about 30% of the the girls at my CATHOLIC high school were doing the same thing. This sin was long ago confessed, but I think back and know I would not have risked sex without the pill…

As I understand it, one of the conditions of being being in mortal sin is the full knowledge, which was obviously not there at the time. Now they know, now they can stop. I also understand that under “certain circumstances” oral contraceptive IS acceptable…“IF” (and that’s a great big huge IF) there is zero sexual intercourse-complete and total abstinence for the duration.

Furthermore, I’ve never had to worry about it because I can count the number of dates I’ve had on the fingers of one hand, still a virgin to this day. In fact, the only one in my family who has had birth control is a male neutered cat (for a skin condition).

Wasn’t able to read through all the posts, but in case anyone hasn’t mentioned it, the website One More Soul (www.onemoresould.com) has invaluable CDs and resources on this topic—many include first-hand talks of couples who have had their hearts, lives, and marriages, changed for the better. God bless.

@Sandy - I have to admit the thought also occurred to me that you were a socially liberal non-Catholic who is trying to confuse Catholics by misinterpreting Catholic doctrine.    However, that’s not fair of me.  Since I don’t know you,I am going to assume, that like the rest of us, you also are seeking God’s Grace in your life. 
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Saying the primary purpose of marriage is procreation does not translate into the “sole” purpose.    And a couple need only to seek their own hearts and consciences to determine whether or not a reason for postponing children is “just”.    Maybe they’d like to discuss the matter with spiritual, financial, and physical advisors, but this step is not required.  For instance, a couple who has difficult pregnancies may want to postpone conception to attend to pressing emotional or physical needs of a child already entrusted to them - they don’t need to see a doctor to understand the emotional toll that another pregnancy would put on them - they’ve lived though previous pregnancies and they know. 
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Some couples can only emotionally, financially, or physically handle one child.  A Catholic married couple’s most important job is to raise as many children as they can for God’s greater glory.  When they honestly believe they can’t handle one more, the right thing for them to do is to try to postpone another pregnancy.   
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I don’t understand how you can read Anna Lisa’s post and then disparage her because some women need to work to feed and clothe their family.  Anna Lisa’s not an idiot, she knows that.  You left out that some women may need to work, not so much for money, but for their own sanity.    No where did Anna Lisa say that her way was the way for everyone. 
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Trying to box in our Catholic faith is a mistake.  It can be lived fully by very different looking families.

You know, I was 18 or 19 with only a couple periods per year when my GYN thought the pill might make me more regular. I talked to my pastor about it, because I thought it might be sinful, and was assured that if it was used for medical reasons and I was virginal I really had nothing to worry about.  When I got married at 29 it changed everything for me. I dropped the pill. Only now, as the fourth and last surviving sister of my Mom’s found her breast cancer (Mom’s mastectomy was last year and she seems to be basically all right at this point—which is more than we can say for two other sisters) are we learning more about what all those years of artificial birth control have and haven’t done for my cancer stats.  I hope the NFP community can share not only the message of Catholic teaching but also the message of improved health using natural methods.  Creighton has taught me a lot about myself, and I wish it hadn’t taken being an RCIA sponsor a couple years ago for me to learn about it.

I certainly understand the need to move folk from artifical bc to nfp. I further understand that it is very difficult to replace the ease of the pill with rigors of nfp. One thing that I struggle with is the use of nfp as an ‘alternative lifestyle.’ Isn’t nfp a tool to use when special need arises? Isn’t acceptance of children on God’s schedule the norm? I am not advocating blind providentialism but I struggle to understand nfp as a discernment tool.

Few things:

Some priests are addressing contraception.  Priest at the old parish discussed it in more than one homily that was in regards to marriage.  At that parish a deacon and his wife taught the Couple to Couple league NFP.  Church we are at now the priest hasn’t addressed it from the pulpit, but he does bring it up in the confessional.  So some priests are addressing it.

Chesterton said, regarding birth control circa 1920’s, that Birth Control really no birth, and no (self) control.  NFP requires self control and doesn’t shut the door on births.  If God wanted to make women fertile 365 days a year, I suppose he could have done so.  Instead it is ~5 days or less a month.  Preventing conception with mechanical or chemical means in those five days is very different from just abstaining those 5 days.  Cooperating with nature is different from a brute-force over ride of nature.

Regarding NFP methods, the Couple to Couple league is pretty good because they teach a variety of signs.  Pick the one’s that work.  Recent bought one of the Clear Blue monitors (Marquette) to use in conjunction with the other signs used.  Really more of an attempt to calibrate the other signs.  The monitor was very good at spotting phase III.  I’d recommend it if someone lacked confidence in the other methods.

Wife and I came over from Anglicanisim three years ago.  When we were first married (10 years ago) she was on the pill.  She could not ovulate afterwards and had to take Clomid to have our first.  After that she became very fertile—next child was concieved one month after stopping the pill.  When we started RCIA we decided to stop the pill and take the next NFP class.  She was pregnant the next month.  Still have the half-used packet of pills, what an unusual thing to have—some little pills that she could have took to keep a healthy boy from being born.  And what a boy, 2 1/2 years old, and yesterday he was in his overalls with his tools helping daddy fix the washing machine.  Point is, we are a very fertile couple.  After the third the OB warned about having a fourth—the wall of the uterus was thinning and three c sections added up to a risk for a ruptured uterus with a fourth.  But with NFP 2 1/2 years later no pregnancy.  In that time one of her friends conceived while on the pill and her sister while on an IUD.  I’d argue that if a couple is conservative in their use of NFP it is probably the most effective method.  At the same time, while it doesn’t allow sex 24/7, by having safe times, it is sort of like having a honey moon every month.  There have been months of NFP when we’ve had as much sex as when she was on the pill.  On the pill there is always tomorrow.  With NFP it is clear your calendar, tonight is it.

The other day she remarked that even if we some how left the Church, she would still want to do NFP.

Great piece!  I wish our church did a much better job talking about NFP (myself included)!  And that it is a lifestyle choice so its also an extension of your faith making it even more amazing!

Sadly I once used birth control.  I had a conversion of heart when during my Husband’s RCIA class, the topic was brought up and discussed heavily on the teaching and why the church teaches what she teaches regarding birth control and sexuality.  I made a vow to be open to children…it didn’t say 1 or 2 only.  I have been NFPing for about 11 years.  Every encounter is a decision about family.  Do we open the door or not.  Yes, that means if we are in a situation that doesn’t welcome a new life, then we lovingly sustain. I have a large family, that through other artificial means would probably not be here and I would have really missed out.  Does it work?  Yes, as long as you are faithful with charting. I am waiting 3 years before I can open the door again.  In the end, it is about trust, because God can open the door regardless if you are on the pill or NFPing (assuming you have sex).  Theology of the body talks about this in great detail.  Christopher West has an amazing understanding of theology of the Body.  If you have never read his stuff, get your hands on it.  You won’t regret it!

I think one of the reasons that people stay away from NFP is that they think that a woman is always fertile when in actuality there is only a brief window every cycle when she has a possibility of conceiving a child. I also think women are lied to and not given full disclosure about artificial contraceptives and the harm they cause to women. The Pill has been classified by the World Health Orginization as a Class 1 carcinogen. That means its ability to cause cancer, mainly breast cancer, is on the same level as asbestos. They are also not telling women that it makes their bodies more susceptable to contracting STD’s of which AIDS is the one it increases the likelyhood of the most. In Africa they have found that women on the pill not only are more likely to get AIDS but also the more virilant forms and if they already have AIDS it makes the disease progress at a faster rate. It also doesn’t help that a lot of priests are not up to date on modern NFP techniques. They also are not well catechised themselves on human sexuality in God’s plan and really need instruction on Theology of the Body.

To Just a Guy :  If your wife is on the pill, then her hormones are in a state of pregnancy which may be the reason why she is not “frisky”.  Also, her pheromones are the same as a pregnant woman which makes you feel as though she is sexually off limits.  Look into the scientific research of the Pill and you will find this is true.

I am in the same position the two Sues are in. After 3 children in 3 years the pastor of our church at the time came up to us and told us it was ok to slow down. My next two pregnancies were complete bed rest the last 20 weeks. I was approaching 5 children in 7years and one miscarriage. I too refused to have my tubes tied, my husband knew I didn’t want this so he decided to have a vasectomy. I’ll ne’er forget the day he went, we were inthe doctors office with four kids and I was about 7 months pregnant. The doctor said I don’t even have to ask.  Our relationship has suffered greatly from this decision. Since that time we have really come to understand the Catholic Church and her wisdom but it has come at great cost. It still brings me to tears thinking about the children I was never able to bring into this world and that we didn’t have enough faith to trust that God has us in the palm of his hand. Anyone who is considering a permanent form a birth control I can tell you it solves absolutely nothing! After many many Yeats in the pro-life movement and studying the negative effects of contraception I can say from the depths of my heart that is isn’t worth it. I am doing my best to teach my children, now 13-20, what the Church teaches and why so they don’t suffer the same pain my husband and I have. My husband even went to confession early on and the priest told him there was nothing wrong with his decision. Something did happen that day because he really realized how wrong it was and sought out a different confessor. Unfortunately, he never did have it reversed but I do know that he is truly sorry for this sin and calls it his biggest mistake.

What is lacking in modernity is a lack of trust in Divine Providence.  We have no idea what our finances, our health or our living conditions will be next month, much less next year.  We do not know when children will be given and when they will be taken away.  We cannot count on fertility when we think the time is right.  The truth is, God does know and his plan for us is much better than our own.  That is what we do not trust, that God’s plan is better for us than our own.  When we learned recently that we were expecting #6 we had that, “wow, really” moment.  We had no idea how it was remotely possible financially.  Now we know that Our Heavenly Father knows our needs before we ask.  He has provided a way.  Fear is useless, what is needed is trust.

An interesting addition to this conversation can be found at…

http://philotheaonphire.blogspot.com/2013/01/is-heroic-parenthood-new-responsible.html

Read Dr. Boyd’s other NFP posts as well.

Blake, Amen!

Something that has always puzzled me about many ccl teaching couples is that they have many children, like 8+ and it looks like they don’t want to space them out at all. Therefore they probably don’t practice NFP. That’s fine, there’s nothing wrong with having a large family but to couples who are engaged or new to NFP, that can be confusing.

@Mom of teenager—yes, it is morally acceptable to use the pill to treat medical issues where birth control becomes an undesired side effect. Often times, though there are other available treatments. Do your research and weigh the options carefully, as birth control in not necessarily the only undesired side effect.

You might visit the National Catholic Bioethics Center for assistance in discerning what is best to do in your daughter’s case. http://www.ncbcenter.org/

This article is a good one to start the discussion, and I appreciate everyone’s comments here. I owe the existence of my own five children (and two others I know of in Heaven) to the teachings of the Catholic Church, period. I was a Pill user and deeply regret having used it. I am SAD beyond words that I did not fully understand nor face the reality that newly conceived children of ours were lost due to the abortifacient aspects (uterine lining destruction) that work as part of the “regular” birth control pill.  AS a couple, we would never have had one child if I had not read the Catechism which was published by JPII and I found on a bargain book rack. Upon reading the Catechism, we never once considered NFP.

Researching the history of the bc movement, the words “family planning” come from Sangerites, so it is beyond terrible that these words are now part of what is widely viewed as an acceptable moral “Catholic” practice, periodic abstinence. The problem is that NFP is a practice that aligns with the “contraceptive mentality” that makes our own unborn children “unwelcome strangers” in our lives. Hospitality has always been a fundamental Christian principle, and the best illustration of that is seen in the story of Elijah and the widow who baked him a little cake from the last crumbs of flour she had.

The trust in God’s Providence has to supersede our own senses and plans for the future, because we’re so dumb and blind and weak, how can we possibly have much influence on the future, anyway? We are provided for in the degree to which we trust. And if we think we’re going to get out of this life without suffering…perhaps very much…we are kidding ourselves. We have to step back and think, are we living the life according to God’s plans for us or not?

All that being said, though, the Church has been WRONG in not more clearly and openly declaring its teachings in regard to the sinfulness of “the contraceptive mentality” and whatever form it may be practiced in. To me, a woman with severe heart trouble who risks dying if becoming pregnant , or an ongoing nuclear war, might constitute serious circumstances which justify what we currently call NFP, but the Church’s current stance as to what “grave” (or “serious,” if you prefer) reason actually IS is communicated about as clearly as mud.

The Church also has to proclaim that women choosing to be wives MUST submit to the reality of who they are, which is 110% against secular culture teaching that we can and should live out “self actualization.”

There are very real financial issues and emotional issues with regard to parenting large families, and it does seem the priests and bishops of the Church want to “have it both ways.” The Church needs to work very hard at strengthening the Church community as being supportive of one another (far too many parishes are swoop in, receive the Eucharist, and swoop out to work-a-day life) at the parish level. It also needs to work at purifying itself of its addiction to money…both from government and from parishioners (which, if you ask me, is the primary reason it does not preach more loudly against the contraceptive mentality in all its forms—as people feel “convicted” regarding birth control and sterilization, not a few will reject Truth and leave for teachers who “tickle their ears,” taking their wallets with them to Hell.)

I think there are those in the Church who fear deeply this mass apostasy that will make the previous forty years’ exodus look like a trickle in comparison. It’s a complex issue, and I will not lie, as a homeschooling mom of five, once a former dyed-in-the-wool “femi-Nazi,” there are days when the isolation and the burden is completely CRUSHING. You don’t know what you will do if the husband gets laid off. You ache at not being able to provide music lessons for that talented kid because it is just not in the budget, and you SEETHE at the Catholic school system which takes in the burka-wearing MUSLIM because her parents have the dollars to pay the tuition as you STRUGGLE in the wee hours of the morning grading papers of your own kids you can barely see out of your achingly tired eyes.

It is a complex issue, but it has to be put out there in the open and the Church has got to CLARIFY its moral stance and teachings, and it has to do a better job, from the level of Pope to the level of lay person, at finding out and meeting the needs of the families struggling to live in all practical aspects, including this one, the Catholic faith.

I would never use NFP myself; however, I do understand how and why the Church and lay people see it as being a necessary “fall back” position. The bottom line is, how does God see all this, and how much of “being fruitful” and a “good and faithful servant” means bearing and rearing a large family?

Consider this—what would our world be like today if the Catholic faithful who SHOULD have borne and raised large Catholic families actually HAD done so? Would we be in the economic crisis we’re in? Would we be in the moral crisis we’re in? Would the Muslim threat be what it is today?

I am glad to see this blog post and I say there need to be many more like it. And, no matter our stance on this issue, let’s pray for one another, that we’ll all have the wisdom and strength to seek and DO the will of God.

Contraception not only harms the nuptial union between spouses, it is physically harmful to women who take it. The Pill is classified by the world health organization as a CLASS 1 carcinogen !  Check out the harmful effects at LoveFacts - http://tinyurl.com/acwyzbv.

Hormonal contraceptives is dangerous for a womans health.The Pill and Breast Cancer. Why the Ignorance?
by One More Soul Staff
http://onemoresoul.com/news-commentary/the-pill-and-breast-cancer-why-the-ignorance.html
There is no need for women to use hormonal contraceptives hc do NOT treat the problem it suppresses the symptoms. I suggest women look up Naprotechnology its womens health science founded by Dr Hilgers a Catholic Doctor. He has a great book called “The Naprotechnology Revolution Unleashing the Power in a Woman’s Cycle” I highly recommend it for every Catholic woman!
Look up Spirit Catholic Radio “Your Fertility Care Consult” with Dr. Thomas Hilgers, founder of the Pope Paul VI Institute for The Study of Human Reproduction 23 Shows some of the Shows are
~ Show 03 &4 - Disturbing Trends in the Health Care of Women, Children, and Families -,
Show 05 Creighton Model System and NaPro technology,
Show 7-9 Contraception,
Show 10 & 11 abortion,
Show 12 Teens and the Birth Control Pill
Show14 Women Healed (WH) of Infertility,
Show 15 (WH) Recurrent Spontaneous Abortion (miscarriages),
Show 16 (WH) Endometriosis,
Show 17 (WH) Polycystic Ovarian Disease (PCOD),
Show 18 (WH) Premenstrual Syndrome,
Show 19 Postpartum Depression, 23 Calling Young Doctors & Physicians

~and on youtube search for, Is the Pill Medically Necessary?—An Introduction to Na-Pro Technology.
description under video
Natural Procreative (NaPro) Technology uses fertility cycle charting, timed bloodwork, and cooperative hormonal therapy to address a number of women’s health issues including infertility, ovarian cysts, premenstrual syndrome (PMS), and irregular cycles

I have been married for 23 years and have 7 children.  My husband and I contracepted for the first 2 years of marriage. We stopped in order to conceive. After our 3rd child, we returned to contraception.  I then experienced “breakthrough bleeding” and was told by my OB/GYN that I needed more hormones.  Something wasn’t right about this, and I started to learn about the TRUE teachings of the Catholic faith and the truth about the pill, so I discussed this with my husband, and we stopped contracepting. (But it is important to note that “I” learned about the true teachings of the Catholic faith.  At this point, he agreed to go along.)  After our 4th child, we learned NFP (Creighton) right before we moved to another state.  We had no NFP Practitioner trained in Creighton in the new city we were living, so we really couldn’t receive the counsel we needed.  We didn’t really pay close attention, and had an “attitude” of being open to life, and consequently, we conceived 3 more times.  My husband was experiencing difficulties at work by this time.  We just built a new house, so we had more and bigger expenses.  My husband and I started to fight over contraception as fear was creeping in for him, and pressure was mounting.  He wanted to get a vasectomy.  This was devastating to me.  My faith over the years had grown, and while my faith was growing, his was dying.  Over the years we were very happy, but once fear crept in, and my husband was seeing financial difficulties and challenges arise, and believe it or not, the “pressure” from his co-workers was unbelievable telling him that he literally “screwed” himself out of his retirement, he caved.  His faith was not strong enough.  Against my wishes, he got the vasectomy.  The difficulties we experienced from that is a whole other topic.  I am telling my story as I know this is not unique, but there is a lesson here.  What is a spouse to do when the other is contracepting?  What are we to do when the world tells us to contracept is responsible?  What are we to do when the Church itself is silent on the issue, or worse, gives immoral counsel?  One word.  SACRIFICE.  Lay down your life for your spouse.  Give everything.  Offer everything.  Pray with your heart.  Love anyway.  Do this until you die.  You see, THIS is what marriage is all about!  Sacrificial love.  Helping one another get to heaven.  How are they to see Christ?  To see the truth if there is not one single example?  BE THAT EXAMPLE.  My husband has yet to experience conversion, but as angry and resentful as I was, I found that it got me nowhere except miserable. So, I go to Confession as often as possible, and as often as necessary…(almost every Sunday).  I pray (without him seeing because his attitude towards “religion” changed) the Rosary, Chaplet, daily prayers and offer every bit of suffering that I experience for his conversion.  Over the years, I have become gentler, silencing my tongue more often, and we have found peace again.  His conversion is not up to me, but I will do my part as a faithful wife to love him “in sickness and in health” because he is “spiritually sick” till death do us part. NFP is beautiful but it requires communication, self control (if you wish not to conceive during fertile times because of financial or serious reasons), faith….practicing NFP gives a wonderful opportunity for faith to grow leaps and bounds, mutual respect….(this is HUGE!!.. A woman will never feel used if there is mutual respect and a man will feel loved and desired) and the couple learns to TRUST each other and more importantly, to trust God who will provide for all of their needs.  (THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE CONFUSED WITH AN ABSENCE OF SUFFERING!!) Lets not be dilusional!!  Doing God’s Will and trusting in Him never means you will be without difficulties or suffering!  It just means that if you trust, you will be given the grace to accept His Will for your life through the gift of peace no matter what. While my husband did not want to return to NFP, and he really didn’t want me to take birth control for my health, he decided to take matters into his own hands. I have so much to say about HOW this negatively affected our marriage.  It was an absolute wedge right into the heart of our happy marriage, and neither one of us could have ever known just how awful and devastating contraception can be for a marriage.  We changed.  His attitude towards me changed.  My attitude towards him changed.  There was bitterness, anger, resentment and it wasn’t just me being angry for what he did!! It was a selfish and angry attitude anywhere you turned!  It was evil floating around us.  Once I realized this, especially watching one marriage after another around us go down in flames, I realized what had to happen. I HAD TO FIGHT BACK WITH LOVE!!!  It took years to get to this point.  I prayed for it.  I asked for it.  I wasn’t going to let evil take my marriage and rip it apart.  This is the reality of contraception.  This is the truth. Contraception with the absence of sacrificial love will kill a marriage.  Don’t believe me?  Look around.  We cannot wait for others to change, priests to preach, spouses to change. etc.  WE are the ones who need to act.  The ones commenting on this post. The ones who cared enough to read this article!!  YOU are the difference!  YOU are the remnant Church, and YOU will usher in change and truth….one marriage at a time.  You all are in my prayers.

Claire—either you can’t read or you are ignoring my point. I did not think up those quotes—I copied and pasted them from http://www.catholicapologetics.info/. Look it up.
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Personally, I don’t consider it “wrong” to practice any kind of contraception—ortho novum, condoms, or NFP. I think the families who have used NFP and are happy because of it made the right choice in not leaving it to God alone as to how to “space their children.”
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Just tell me that, except for the chemicals, how is NFP not intentional avoidance of conception within a marriage?

Posted by Sandy Malia on Thursday, Feb 7, 2013 1:54 PM (EDT):
Just tell me that, except for the chemicals, how is NFP not intentional avoidance of conception within a marriage?”
*********************************************************
When it’s used to achieve conception.

I’m not going to tell you anything.  You have yet to answer the question that I answered for you, about what good you have done in the world. And furthermore,  many other comments on this thread have already addressed the issue that you’re questioning. This is your comment I was responding to:  “The Vatican, however, decreed that the institution of marriage is for the sole purpose of procreation and ANY effort to have sex within marriage (let alone out of marriage) that does not have the chance of conception of a child is sinful.”  That is not a quote that you copied and pasted.  That is an absurd statement that you yourself came up with.  The catechism and encyclicals are the final answer on official Church teaching.  You have not provided any quotes from the Catechism or from any papal encyclicals.  There is no official Church teaching that says that sex is only licit when it has the potential to lead to a conception.  It is absolutely ludicrous to imply (or, as you would say, “implicate”) that it is illicit for a couple to engage in sex under circumstances that would render the act infertile (such as after menopause, after a hysterectomy, or during the infertile phase of the woman’s cycle).

Ruth—How are you supposed to convince people that the “Pill” is bad for a woman’s health when you use only Catholic biased resources who are notorious for confirmation bias of their statistics?
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/confirmation_bias.htm
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Like it or not, secular resources for statistics on contraception use are more reliable. A Catholic doctor may give you excellent treatment for cancer, except if you are pregnant. Then his/her advice is likely to favor keeping the unborn child alive, even if it would never be viable outside the womb. It happens more often than you would like to think, usually with the outcome of both mother and child ending up dead.

I want to say goodbye to Annalisa, Kathleen, and everyone else who has made this discussion a very interesting one.  This is one of the best articles and best discussions I have seen on this topic, other than the troll activity of course.  But, two days in a row I have come home to 25+ email notifications of new comments, and I can’t continue at that pace as the next few days are going to be busy.  So at this point I’m going to unsubscribe, although I might pop back in if I end up being homebound this weekend due to the storm that we’re supposed to get.  Have a good weekend everyone! (even the trolls)

Clare—I don’t need your praise for my good works any more than you need mine. That’s why I don’t brag about them because I don’t have to prove to others that I’m worthy to be part of your group.
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You have to prove that the text I copied and pasted from a very conservative Catholic site is not true. I don’t see reference to counter-claim it. That’s how formal logical arguments are conducted. Just because you say it’s not true doesn’t mean anything unless you have a reference. I did my homework, you do yours.

OK—Claire copped out again. I guess we’ll exchange on another posting.
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My challenge is open to anyone who wants to comment.
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Posted by Kathleen on Thursday, Feb 7, 2013 2:01 PM (EDT):
Posted by Sandy Malia on Thursday, Feb 7, 2013 1:54 PM (EDT):
Just tell me that, except for the chemicals, how is NFP not intentional avoidance of conception within a marriage?”
*********************************************************
When it’s used to achieve conception.
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Kathleen, you just proved my point. What is “spacing children” if not contraception?

@Jim (and @Oregon Catholic),

Jim, you wrote, “I have a letter from the The Patriarch of Constantinople. And, it declares without a hint of doubt that Orthodoxy is officially, absolutely, 100% in step with the Roman Church in regards to abortion, contraception, and interruption.”

Well, perhaps the Patriarch of Constantinople is 100% against all artificial birth control (which is NOT what he says; he simply says that Orthodoxy is “in step with”—whatever that means, and assuming that he really understands exactly WHAT the official Catholic position about birth control even is!).  However, each patriarch is his own “pope” in regards to such things, and that statement doesn’t necessarily reflect what other patriarchs teach, much less what their bishops and priests teach.  I can tell in that in my experience in the AOC (American Orthodox Church), the priests were very up front in saying that Orthodoxy is “perfectly fine” with contraception and sterilization, and most (if not all) Orthodox women I knew were quick to admit that they either used contraception or they (or their husbands) were sterilized.  This may be an aberration, and perhaps the priests I talked to were not representing the AOC teaching, but this is my experience.

@Sandy Malia - I can say the sky is green but that does not make it so.  It is NOT Catholic teaching that children are the SOLE purpose of marriage.  Children are a PRIMARY purpose of marriage - that’s a huge difference.  When my husband and I married we promised to accept children lovingly from God, but before we made that promise, we promised to honor each other as husband and wife.   
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Think.  Would the Church marry couples who are well into their 60’s and beyond if the sole purpose of marriage were children?  No, yet it happens all the time and has since people started living that long and it was certainly happening in the 1930’s when Casti Canubbi was written. 
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Please stop trying to fit all Catholics and our Faith into a neat little box with very square corners.  Stop trying to play “gotcha” with us.

WHAT DOES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACH ABOUT PARENTHOOD?

“Marriage and conjugal love are by their nature ordained toward the
begetting and educating of children. Children are really the supreme gift
of marriage and contribute very substantially to the welfare of their
parents. The God Himself who said, ‘It is not good for man to be alone’
(Gen. 2:18) and ‘who made man from the beginning male and female’ (Mt.
19:4), wished to share with man a certain special participation in His own
creative work. Thus He blessed male and female, saying: ‘Increase and
multiply’ (Gen.  1:28).

“Hence, while not making the other purposes of matrimony of less account,
the true practice of conjugal love, and the whole meaning of the family
life which results from it, have this aim: that the couple be ready with
stout hearts to cooperate with the love of the Creator and the Savior, who
through them will enlarge and enrich His own family day by day.

“Parents should regard as their proper mission the task of transmitting
human life and educating those to whom it has been transmitted. They
should realize that they are thereby cooperators with the love of God the
Creator, and are, so to speak, the interpreters of that love” (Gaudium et
Spes, 50).

DOES THE CHURCH TEACH THAT A COUPLE MUST HAVE AS MANY CHILDREN AS THEY
PHYSICALLY CAN?

No. In decisions about family size, the married couple “will thoughtfully
take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those
already born and those which may be foreseen. For this accounting they
will reckon with both the material and the spiritual conditions of the
times as well as of their state in life. Finally, they will consult the
interests of the family group, of temporal society, and of the Church
itself” (Gaudium et Spes, 50).

WHAT DOES THE CHURCH TEACH ABOUT AN IDEAL FAMILY SIZE?

The Church has no specific teaching about an ideal family size.  As
indicated previously, couples may take many factors into consideration. On
the other hand, there is a general Christian warning against
decision-making based solely on materialistic factors. Life is a gift to
be shared, and the Christian couple are called to be generous in the
service of life according to their circumstances.

For example, Pope John Paul II has noted that “decisions about the number
of children and the sacrifices to be made for them must not be taken only
with a view to adding comfort and preserving a peaceful existence.
Reflecting upon this matter before God, with the graces drawn from the
Sacrament, and guided by the teaching of the Church, parents will remind
themselves that it is certainly less serious to deny their children
certain comforts or material advantages than to deprive them of the
presence of brothers or sisters who could help them to grow in humanity
and to realize the beauty of life at all ages and in all its variety.”[2]

WHAT DOES THE CHURCH SAY ABOUT METHODS OF BIRTH CONTROL?

“When there is a question of harmonizing conjugal love with the
responsible transmission of life, the moral aspect of any procedure does
not depend solely on sincere intentions or on an evaluation of motives. It
must be determined by objective standards. These, based on the nature of
the human person and his acts, preserve the full sense of mutual
self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love. Such a goal
cannot be achieved unless the virtue of conjugal chastity is sincerely
practiced. Relying on these principles, sons of the Church may not
undertake methods of regulating procreation which are found blameworthy by
the teaching authority of the Church in its unfolding of the divine law”
(Gaudium et Spes, 51).

Does the Church teach that the unnatural or artificial means of birth
control are immoral and blameworthy?  Yes. In Humanae Vitae, the
first-named form of illicit or unnatural method of birth control is
abortion (n. 14).[3]

Then, “equally to be excluded, as the teaching authority of the Church has
frequently declared, is direct sterilization, whether perpetual or
temporary whether of the man or woman” (Humanae Vitae, 14). This condemns
tubal ligations, vasectomies, and the Pill.

“Similarly excluded is every action which, either in anticipation of the
conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its
natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render
procreation impossible” (Humanae Vitae, 14).  Such unnatural forms include
the Pill, the intrauterine device, foams, diaphragms, condoms, withdrawal,
mutual or solitary masturbation and sodomistic practices.

Are some forms of unnatural birth control worse than others?  Yes. Those
forms that act after conception has occurred to prevent the continuation
of the pregnancy participate in the additional evil of abortion. “From the
moment of its conception life must be guarded with greatest care, while
abortion and infanticide are unspeakable crimes” (Gaudium et Spes, 51).

Surgical abortion is the most obvious but not the only form. The
intrauterine device (IUD) acts primarily as an early abortion agent by
preventing implantation of the week-old human life.

The birth control Pill makes the inner lining of the uterus very hostile
to implantation. It is not known how often the Pill acts in this way, but
it cannot be denied that the Pill may be acting as an early abortion agent
in any given cycle in any given woman.[4]

WHAT METHODS OF BIRTH REGULATION ARE MORALLY ACCEPTABLE?

“If there are serious reasons to space out births, reasons which derive
from the physical or psychological conditions of husband and wife, or from
external conditions, the Church teaches that it is morally permissible to
take into account the natural rhythms of human fertility and to have
coitus only during the infertile times in order to regulate conception
without offending the moral principles which have been recalled earlier”
(Humanae Vitae, 16).

Thus, the same teaching of the Church which condemns the use of the
unnatural methods of birth control explicitly approves of the use of
Natural Family Planning when there is a sufficient reason to avoid or
postpone pregnancy. With its emphasis on the necessity of a serious reason
to use even the natural methods, the Church is warning against selfishness
in family planning.

SINCE BOTH THE NATURAL AND THE UNNATURAL METHODS OF BIRTH CONTROL HAVE THE
PURPOSE OF LIMITING FAMILY SIZE, AREN’T THEY MORALLY THE SAME?

Not at all. The end does not justify the means; a common purpose does not
make morally equal all the possible means of achieving that purpose. “It
is not licit, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil so that good may
follow therefrom” (Humanae Vitae, 14). A prime purpose of the Ten
Commandments is to teach us that we may not act against our created human
nature in pursuing some purpose or pleasure. Thus, we may not kill or
steal or commit adultery to advance ourselves. The Church affirms that
efforts at birth regulation “must be done with respect for the order
established by God” (Humanae Vitae, 16).

WHY IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OPPOSED TO UNNATURAL BIRTH CONTROL?

The basic reason for the Church’s opposition to any sort of sinful action
is that such actions are contrary to the nature God has given us. Jesus
said about marriage, “Let no one take apart what God has put together” (Mk
10:9). This can also be applied to the act of sexual intercourse which has
been called “the marriage act” for centuries of Christian history.

In the natural act of completed marital sexual intercourse, there is a
symbolic bodily unity of man and wife. However, in every form of unnatural
birth control, there is a positive effort to destroy the procreative
potential of an act that God has given us as a unique sign of married
love.

Looked at in another way, the sex act is meant by God to be a symbolic way
in which a couple are called to renew, at least implicitly, their marriage
covenant. In this bodily union, they are called to affirm anew their
original promises of married love, to take each other for better or for
worse, to be as one until death.

Unnatural birth control contradicts the symbolic renewal of the marriage
covenant. Instead, it says, “I take you for better but not for the
imagined worse of parenthood.”

IS THERE A BIBLICAL BASIS FOR THE CHURCH’S TEACHING AGAINST CONTRACEPTION?

Yes. The 38th chapter of Genesis tells the story of Judah, his sons, and
Tamar. One of the sons, Onan, practiced the sin of
contraception—withdrawal in this case—with Tamar, and the Bible tells us
that God slew him because he had done an abominable thing (Gen. 38:10).

It is recognized today that Judah, Onan, and another brother were all
guilty of violating an ancient Eastern brotherhood law called the law of
the Levirate. However, the punishment for violating that law was very mild
and is spelled out in Deuteronomy 25:5- 10. Judah himself admitted his
guilt (Gen. 38:26). It is therefore clear that the special punishment
meted out to Onan was not just for the violation of the Levirate but
rather for the way in which only he had sinned—his contraceptive behavior
of going through the motions of the covenantal act and then “spilling his
seed” (Gen. 38:9).

This interpretation is backed up by the only incident in the New Testament
where immediate death is the punishment for sin—the deaths of Ananias and
Saphira who went through the motions of a giving act but defrauded it of
its meaning (Acts 5:1-11).

ARE THERE ANY OTHER BIBLICAL REFERENCES TO BIRTH CONTROL?

Probably yes. In the New Testament, it is possible that the Greek
“pharmakeia” refers to the birth control issue. “Pharmakeia” in general
was the mixing of various potions for secret purposes, and it is known
that potions were mixed in the first century A.D.  to prevent or stop a
pregnancy. The typical translation as “sorcery” may not reveal all of the
specific practices condemned by the New Testament. In all three of the
passages in which it appears, it is in a context condemning sexual
immorality; two of the three passages also condemn murder. (Gal. 5:19-26;
Rev. 9:21, 21:8). Thus it is very possible that there are three New
Testament passages condemning the use of the products of “pharmakeia” for
birth control purposes.

DOES THE BIBLE HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT HUMAN LOVE AND SEXUALITY?

Yes. There is simply no doubt that the entire biblical notion of human
love points to the fact that man is called to subordinate “eros,” erotic
love, to “agape,” self-giving love. While not referring specifically to
the issue of birth control, St. Paul’s most famous discourse on love is
still applicable to this discussion. It is noteworthy that he begins and
ends on the two aspects of love that are needed for the happy practice of
natural family planning.  “Love is always patient and kind; . . . it is
always ready . . . to endure whatever comes” (1 Cor. 13:4, 7). Christian
husbands are also told to love their wives as Christ loved the Church and
sacrificed himself for her (Eph. 5:25). All Christians were told by Christ
on the night before His death to love one another as He loved them, a
statement that has obvious overtones about self- giving love (Jn 15:12).
St. Paul also tells his listeners that the fruits of the Spirit are “love,
joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, gentleness, and
self-control.” He reminds them that they cannot really belong to Christ
unless they “crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires” (Gal. 5:22,
24).

The above is incomplete but serves one limited purpose. It shows that it
is legitimate to state that the religious doctrine of marital
non-contraception has a basis in Scripture and that the practice of
natural family planning with its necessity of a certain amount of sexual
self-control fits well within the Christian biblical tradition.

The answers that most of you are seeking, can be found at this link: http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/CCLBC.TXT

It will tell what the church teaches, no one priest or another, but the church and why.

Here is a link that expands on the teachings of Theology of the Body JP II and Humane Vitae, which is the actual teaching as it regarding to birth control.  http://www.tobinstitute.org/

When I married in 1965, I converted to Catholicism.  The priest that taught the class where I first received my instructions agreed to perform our marriage instructions.  My fiancée went with me to the instruction classes.  I don’t recall much being said about contraception in the class, though am sure it was part of I, because we talked about the Ten commandments and that premarital sex was also adultery.  It has been a long time. But I do recall he discussing it in our Marriage classes he did for us for several weeks prior to our marriage.  He made it clear contraception was considered a sin in the Church.  He explained about that we might not even know if we could get pregnant. We decided not to use contraception, and I immediately got pregnant. 
I have a beautiful daughter. as soon as she was born, my husband could not wait to have sex, and soon I found myself pregnant with our second daughter.  2 children in the first 2 years of marriage was very difficult.  We did not have Family Planning, though we worked with the rhythm method in those days.  Not successful.  After my second daughter was born, I went on the pill.  That was the downfall of our marriage and
our Religious lives.  I am 67 years old, and after all these years, I now realize if both of us had been more knowledgeable, and followed our Church teachings, we might have more children, though He was adamant about not wanting any more children.  But we may have stayed married if we had had more children.  Our children’s lives may have been better and they may have been Catholic, and their children also. Now they are all lost from any Religion. I have found my way back to the Church, but do feel very sad and guilty that our lives could all have been better with God and following the Church teachings.  The Church knows, God knows.

“Sandy Malia”, You have wandered around this Catholic website for months and months.  So many good people have tried to raise your eyes to the transcendent, but you remain fixed in your devotion to prenatal murder, gay sex, free sex, and your comical hatred for Mother Teresa of Calcutta.  Where does your insatiable thirst for mayhem end?

Birth Control - The Pill - Why use contracepton?
Dr. Janet E. Smith
Contraception: Why Not?
http://www.janetsmith.excerptsofinri.com/

“Ruth—How are you supposed to convince people that the “Pill” is bad for a woman’s health when you use only Catholic biased resources who are notorious for confirmation bias of their statistics?”

Challenge Accepted.

http://sweeteningthepill.blogspot.com

http://kindara.com/blog/here-is-the-thing-that-is-really-driving-me-crazy-about-my-goddamned-iud/  (Great Symptothermal NFP iPhone app, BTW.)

http://menstruationresearch.org/2012/10/17/im-fed-up-with-drug-and-devise-based-birth-control-and-its-zealots/

http://menstruationresearch.org/2013/02/06/does-depo-provera-work-like-a-charm-or-a-curse/

Ok, this one’s Catholic, but still a good story.
http://tatteredveil.wordpress.com/2013/02/07/access-road/

From The Catholic View For Women on EWTN Episode 5: Contraception - Not!

can watch episode ~ http://www.thecatholicviewforwomen.com/episodes/episode-5.aspx
Lung Cancer in Nonsmokers

Lung cancer in nonsmokers is the seventh leading cause of cancer deaths worldwide, killing more than cancers of the cervix, pancreas and prostate.12 A significant fraction of lung cancer cases in the U.S. (10–15%) occur in nonsmokers, with a higher incidence reported for females.12,28,29 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2846780/
Lung Cancer in Women on the Rise…..The hormone estrogen is a possible culprit. Certain forms of estrogen are known to help create genetic mutations in cells and contribute to tumor formation in the breast. Recent…ly, research…ers found out that lung cells in both women and men also make estrogen, raising the possibility that the hormone contributes to lung-cancer development…..Dr. Clapper says that this estrogen pathway could be particularly harmful for women because they have higher levels of estrogen in their blood before menopause, and some may take drugs that boost estrogen, including hormone-replacement therapies or birth control pills….. One in five women diagnosed with lung cancer has never smoked compared with one in 12 men, says Tracey Hyams, director of the Connors Center for Women’s Health and Gender Biology at the Harvard-affiliated Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston.
Three times as many female never-smokers are diagnosed with lung cancer compared with male never-smokers, according to a report recently published by Dr. Hyams’s group
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704764404575287081156194368.html
LUNG CANCER OVERTOOK BREAST CANCER as the leading cause of cancer death among women in the United States in 1987 and now claims the lives of more women each year than breast, ovarian and cervical cancers combined.. from the 2012 Women and Lung Cancer Fact Sheet (.pdf)
http://www.lungcanceralliance.org/for-other-audiences/for-media/    (Note: I do not know what the Lung Cancer Alliance supports just using their stats about women & lung cancer)

Sandy,
Achieving conception is the opposite of contraception.NFP can be a resource for couples who may have encountered difficulty conceiving a child.It’s also a means to understand a woman’s health-in any circumstance.And it’s not just for Catholics.One of my kids teaches NFP & her students include agnostics, atheists,“crunchy” folk-you name it.
Thankyou for your comments.Dialogue can help readers sort out Catholic teaching & misunderstandings re. our faith, but the Catechism might be the best source for reference.

I’m reposting this from earlier…still looking for some input.  Thanks.

I certainly understand the need to move folk from artifical bc to nfp. I further understand that it is very difficult to replace the ease of the pill with rigors of nfp. One thing that I struggle with is the use of nfp as an ‘alternative lifestyle.’ Isn’t nfp a tool to use when special need arises? Isn’t acceptance of children on God’s schedule the norm? I am not advocating blind providentialism but I struggle to understand nfp as a discernment tool.

I am repost this from earlier…still looking for some help.  Thanks

I certainly understand the need to move folk from artifical bc to nfp. I further understand that it is very difficult to replace the ease of the pill with rigors of nfp. One thing that I struggle with is the use of nfp as an ‘alternative lifestyle.’ Isn’t nfp a tool to use when special need arises? Isn’t acceptance of children on God’s schedule the norm? I am not advocating blind providentialism but I struggle to understand nfp as a discernment tool.

I’m 24. I’m Catholic. I go to mass every Sunday. I attended Catholic schools from 1st to 12th grade. I’m spiritually sound with my faith and I have no intention of leaving the Church. That being said, I’ve been on artificial contraception since I was 20 years old. Look, nobody wants to sit here and talk about it, but people have premarital sex more than they don’t this day and age. The Church can say whatever it wants about birth control. I’m not going to stop using it just because they tell me to. In the end, that’s a decision for me to make all on my own - as is the decision to partake in intimate activity. I still have a strong relationship with God. I still practice my faith just as I did before. Honestly, in all my years of interacting with other people and families who hold the same religious values as mine, not a single one has been against birth control for religious reasons.

I love my faith, but I don’t always agree with what they say we should believe. Birth control and homosexuality are the two main areas I differ with the Church on. It doesn’t bother me, though. I’m not torn. I don’t feel internal suffering over any of this. I’m happy. God is still blessing me and my life the same way He did before. Why should I care beyond that?

Thanks for all you do in promoting NFP, and it’s benefits, both physical and spiritual.
MyFertilityMD App
Please see this short 7 min video for a look at our story, of infertility, and history of this revolution in women’s family planning technology. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQKuJ8B9ExQ  
  As a woman, and business owner, I feel the responsibility to improve women’s health, and to educate and assist women in their family planning goals.  (Restoring fertility, and providing an alternative to harmful chemicals, and devices. )

MyFertilityMD is the app designed to accurately display in real time, a woman’s fertility status.  She will know at any given moment, if she is infertile, fertile, or highly fertile.  This makes family planning easy, and at $4.99 for the app, very affordable.
The science behind this Organic Family Planning…has been studied for many years….and has become as effective as taking the pill for avoiding pregnancy.  (Studies show 99% efficacy in avoiding pregnancy. )
In couples experiencing infertility, the app can either help the couple achieve pregnancy by targeting the most fertile days in her cycle, or can help detect the underlying health issues.
This is all done through a complex algorithm. 

MyFertilityMD is the first app of it’s kind to combine all the know fertility bio-markers.  MyFertilityMD will train the user to detect them, and then calculates the woman’s fertility in real time. It only takes seconds.  There are 14,976 possible combinations of bio-markers.    This mean the couple can be completely healthy, and green in their family planning, and also be extremely accurate in either avoiding or achieving pregnancy.  Still got questions,...unsure?  There is an “ask the doctor” feature where the physician will write you back on email you provided.  Other features include, ability to email chart to other healthcare practitioners,or your partner.  Settings for daily reminder, or goal settings can also be changed.  Also included: Women’s forum, and a library of instructional videos, and detailed script instructions.  Charts are recorded and stored, and will be able to be synced with web version.  (coming in a couple weeks)

Infertility is increasingly becoming a problem for both men and women.  Hormonal water pollution is sterilizing men,  feminizing fish, and changing the ecosystem.  This app has no adverse side affects to the couple, or the environment. 

8 years in the making, this app is being used worldwide, and will soon be released in Web version www.myfertilitycycle.com, Spanish version, and Mandarin version.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id545002604

Thanks for all you do in promoting NFP, and it’s benefits, both physical and spiritual.

I dont understand the hostility towards Catholic scientists and/or doctors it seems to me that some people think if someone is religious they are going to lie and stupid which is ridiculous.
This is from a Catholic Doctor which I have no problem with~
World Health Organization Data on Birth Control Pill and Estrogen Replacement Carcinogenicity http://gerardnadal.com/2012/02/15/world-health-organization-data-on-birth-control-pill-and-estrogen-replacement-carcinogenicity/
Chris Stefanick speaks on the concept of relativism and how it promotes the distortion of our understandings of morality. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXhM3MnIAAg&feature=plcp&list=PLD5964DA3A98B7CAF

Selliria,
The Church only opposses that which is incompatible with God’s law (whether it be from Scripture, Tradition, or Natural Law). Our ascent is required if we are to call ourself Catholic and remain close to Christ through the Church He left of us. The two items you mention are condemned in the Bible, Tradition, and are opposed to natural law. It is sometimes hard to conform but we mustn’t make ourself our own pope.

@Just a Guy:

Everyone has already judged you and your marriage based on your single paragraph.  Their bad.

Since you asked [ha ha] I would say: it’s her sin, not yours.  Do it anytime you reasonably want it.  You have a right to it, and so does she.  You never know; if you do it, she might open up in other ways too—like, to children, or to changing her thinking.

Someone assumed that if you are not having sex that your wife would have no reason to use contraception.  Right.  This analysis is foolproof because women are always reasonable…

Hang in there.  Marriage can be a cross at times.  God bless you in your best efforts.

@Selliria, Yes, premarital sex seems to be the norm these days, but that doesn’t make it right or good.  Even though I’m older than you are, I also grew up when pre-marital sex was the norm, the expectation; and unlike today, there was virtually no talk to chastity, and parents had no tools to help them speak about chastity to their kids.  Parents really didn’t even have a clue that their kids didn’t just “know instinctively” that sex outside of marriage was “shameful.” I accepted the cultural beliefs of the time that sex anywhere, with anyone, was fine.  I was what I now call a “cafeteria Catholic”, too, picking and choosing what to accept in Church teaching.  One day I decided to give up my (self-evaluated) hypocrisy and leave the Church that I couldn’t agree with.  In my studying other Christian denominations’ beliefs, though, I was prompted (nagged!) by the Holy Spirit to study the faith of my childhood, the faith I *thought* I knew so well—Catholicism.  When I finally gave in, I was *astounded* at the beauty and truth of her teachings, and the objective reasons for ALL of them, including those sexual teachings I had previously disagreed with.  I urge you to read JP2’s Theology of the Body with an open mind and an open heart, and pray about it.  Listen to what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell you through your studies.  If you still think that birth control, pre-marital sex, and “gay marriage” are all fine, then at least you’ll be able to face your Creator with a clear conscience some day having truly tried to understand why the Church would teach what it does.  The truth is too important - and eternity is too long! - to rely on the prevailing secular wisdom only in these matters.  I will pray for you, for you remind me so much of a young me!

@MOM OF TEENAGER-
If there is any way you can avoid putting your daughter on the Pill, do it. I had horrible cramps as a teenager/young adult and I looked for an easy fix and started the Pill after talking to a priest about the situation (same as your daugther, virgin waiting until marriage). He said that when it is not being used for contraceptive purposes then it’s fine (I do not think this applies to married couples but haven’t really researched it beyond my situation). It made me feel not 100% like myself, and the more I researched it, I found it that it masks the symptoms of real problems (endemetriosis, PCOS, low hormones) without treating the problem. I got off and felt so much more like me even though I knew I would have to bear the cross of cramps.

As far as NFP goes, every couple gets to prayerfully discern what spacing is best for their family. We never can truly know what’s going on in their interior life, so it’s best to just trust them. Just like childbearing it’s not always easy but it bears amazing fruits. Having three children by age 26 was never in my “plan” but God has always managed to open my heart to just one more kid. I have also noticed many people making comments about money and how much it costs to raise kids. Needs are very different than wants and I am learning that it actually can cost very little to raise a child. I live away from family and deal with negative reactions to my pregnancies and every kind of criticism about the size and timing of our family from well meaning relatives. Turns out the trick is to beg God for the grace to get through it all.

Peter, I suppose you are right. Ideally, people should not try to “space” their children without a good reason to do so.  But in this “contraceptive mentality” environment, we have to take things one step at a time.  I know that I and probably many others I know never would have had the “guts” (read: faith) to give up contracepting if NFP hadn’t been available.  It was through using NFP for many years that I slowly learned to trust God enough to give me whatever children He wanted me to have.

Catholics and Communion
The Church sets out specific guidelines regarding how we should prepare ourselves to receive the Lord’s body and blood in Communion. To receive Communion worthily, you must be in a state of grace, have made a good confession since your last mortal sin, believe in transubstantiation, observe the Eucharistic fast, and, finally, not be under an ecclesiastical censure such as excommunication.

First, you must be in a state of grace. “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup” (1 Cor. 11:27–28). This is an absolute requirement which can never be dispensed. To receive the Eucharist without sanctifying grace in your soul profanes the Eucharist in the most grievous manner.

A mortal sin is any sin whose matter is grave and which has been committed willfully and with knowledge of its seriousness. Grave matter includes, but is not limited to, murder, receiving or participating in an abortion, homosexual acts, having sexual intercourse outside of marriage or in an invalid marriage, and deliberately engaging in impure thoughts (Matt. 5:28–29). Scripture contains lists of mortal sins (for example, 1 Cor. 6:9–10 and Gal. 5:19–21). For further information on what constitutes a mortal sin, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
~ From Catholic Answers

To Mom of Teenager on Wednesday, Feb 6, 2013 1:19 PM (EDT):

I suggest looking into NaPro Technology.  That is cutting edge holistic women’s healthcare.  NaPro trained doctors look for the causes of illness and irregular cycles, rather than just using a band-aid solution (such as BCP). 

http://www.naprotechnology.com/

To find a NaPro Dr go to: http://www.fertilitycare.org/ and click on “Find a Medical Consultant” then search by your state to find a Dr near you.

From your second post, it looks like the Dr is recommending something else as a first line instead of the BCP, that is great!  I pray it works.

~~~~~~~
To Grace on Wednesday, Feb 6, 2013 2:00 PM (EDT):

You can begin to learn NFP now as an engaged couple or a single woman (on your own).  I teach Creighton Model FertilityCare (CrMS), but you can also look into Couple to Couple League or Billings method.. and there are more.  I’ve taught engaged couples before. 

You can go to: http://www.fertilitycare.org/ select “Find a teacher” on the left and search by your state to find a CrMS instructor near you.

~~~~~
Great article as usual Jen!  Very thought provoking.

Don’t become me.  A 46 year old woman who was blessed to have a son in her late 30’s.  Now broken-hearted that I can’t have any more children because I waited too long.

@Peter: The charts merely provide information about the wife’s fertility. (Men are always fertile unless there is a problem) They give the couple an idea of how likely sex will lead to conception that day.

The discernment is whether the couple will abstain and avoid pregnancy or come together and be open to life on days when conception is more likely.

While discussions “serious reasons” are all over the internet, in general, the more serious the reasons, the more careful the couple. Couples with not-so-serious reasons tend to not abstain very well, while couples with more serious reasons are more likely to use it conservatively.

“Achieving conception is the opposite of contraception.NFP can be a resource for couples who may have encountered difficulty conceiving a child.It’s also a means to understand a woman’s health-in any circumstance.And it’s not just for Catholics.One of my kids teaches NFP & her students include agnostics, atheists,“crunchy” folk-you name it.”
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Kathleen-the key point of your statement is that it “can” be used to help couples conceive by timing sex for when the woman is most likely to be fertile. My point is that it is also being used for sex when it it most likely the woman is infertile. One purpose is lauded by the Church, the other is intrinsic evil. I’m not saying NPF is bad in itself, just the contraceptive reason for practicing it.
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“It is NOT Catholic teaching that children are the SOLE purpose of marriage.  Children are a PRIMARY purpose of marriage - that’s a huge difference.  When my husband and I married we promised to accept children lovingly from God, but before we made that promise, we promised to honor each other as husband and wife.”
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Eileen—see above. I know the Church wants to promote the love between husband and wife—but when both agree to limit their relations for the time of the month when the woman is infertile, with the intent of avoiding conception in those relations, they are actively working against the primary reason for marriage. If it was ok, then there would be no reason for non-married couples not to practice NFP.
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Claire has copped out, as usual, and annalisa is her paranoid parrot. If they don’t want to deal with me, fine.

This quote from Humanae Vitae should be illuminative (and definitive) regarding Catholic teaching about NFP:

Recourse to Infertile Periods

16. Now as We noted earlier (no. 3), some people today raise the objection against this particular doctrine of the Church concerning the moral laws governing marriage, that human intelligence has both the right and responsibility to control those forces of irrational nature which come within its ambit and to direct them toward ends beneficial to man. Others ask on the same point whether it is not reasonable in so many cases to use artificial birth control if by so doing the harmony and peace of a family are better served and more suitable conditions are provided for the education of children already born. To this question We must give a clear reply. The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.

If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)

Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.

Beth, God will bless your sorrow and His grace will fill your heart. Ask Him for what you can do in this life to fill your need to live and nurture!

Re Catholic teaching on NFP - please refer to #16 in Humanae Vitae for definitive teaching.  (Tried to provide it here but the post was flagged… perhaps it will get through eventually.)  It makes it clear that there is an important difference between artificial contraception and recourse to infertile periods, which it clearly condones for appropriate reasons (many of which have been mentioned here).

@Selliria…......“I love my faith, but I don’t always agree with what they say we should believe. Birth control and homosexuality are the two main areas I differ with the Church on. It doesn’t bother me, though. I’m not torn. I don’t feel internal suffering over any of this. I’m happy. God is still blessing me and my life the same way He did before. Why should I care beyond that?”

Spoken like a 24 year old.  The GOD’s law as well as the Church’s teachings are so we can love and serve GOD in this world in order to enter heaven and ETERNAL happiness. There are many well documented reasons why your life style and others in your generation will NOT lead to happiness in this life.  Read and study your faith!  You will not be sorry!  The Church’s lack of catechesis has led to the great decline in morals in this country.  I pray that you realize this is not the right path before you live to regret it. God bless you!

God bless you Jfire!  Pray for your children and grandchildren. God hears the prayers of the faithful and works in wondrous ways!

@Sandy Malia - the primary reason I eat vegetables is that they are good for me.  I put celery in my chicken salad because it gives it a nice crunch, but that’s still not the primary reason I eat celery. 
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The primary purpose of my marriage with my husband is to have and raise children for God’s greater glory.  But that doesn’t need to be the purpose behind every single thing we do.

So far Lin has written the only point of view that makes sense. You can be a Catholic and disagree with the Church on some issues.
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Lin doesn’t suffer a crisis of faith because s/he does not follow the teachings of the Church in all cases. Claire, Kathleen, annalisa, and a few others, on the other hand are terrified they will not be “Catholic enough” if they even acknowledge any other opinions might be reasonable.
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Is “Gloria” the name of some one who beat you as a child?

Eileen—eating vegetables does not prevent conception. Timing sexual relations to significantly reduce or avoid altogether the possibility of conception is effective (though not perfect)contraception.
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If NFP was in business to help couples who are having fertility trouble track the woman’s most fertile time of her cycle, there wouldn’t be a conflict with the Church. Can you tell me that NFP classes don’t tell married couples it’s correct to time sexual relations so that pregnancy is unlikely to occur?
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The Pope/Catholic Church has made certain infallible decrees about reproduction within marriage. No one is telling you that you shouldn’t eat your veggies.

You misread my post. You cannot be Catholic unless you follow all of the teachings of the Church!  Sin may not affect your health and happiness in the beginning but it will in the end!  There are plenty of posts prior to this of those who regret their not following THE TRUTH. God bless them all!

I do apologize, Selliria, You are the one who deserves my respect—I hope you is reading this.
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Lin, who are you to say that anyone will be “happier” if they follow church teaching without question?
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Eileen—the more I reflect on it, your “eating vegetables” analogy is a ridiculous effort to grasp straws. I can’t wait to talk about it with my friends!

Let’s try this again - not sure why passage from Humanae Vitae re NFP would be blocked (it is the definitive teaching)… hope it works this time.

Recourse to Infertile Periods

16. Now as We noted earlier (no. 3), some people today raise the objection against this particular doctrine of the Church concerning the moral laws governing marriage, that human intelligence has both the right and responsibility to control those forces of irrational nature which come within its ambit and to direct them toward ends beneficial to man. Others ask on the same point whether it is not reasonable in so many cases to use artificial birth control if by so doing the harmony and peace of a family are better served and more suitable conditions are provided for the education of children already born. To this question We must give a clear reply. The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.

If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)

Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.

Ruth—I have no problem with Catholic scientists per se. Just the ones who don’t deal with the rest of the scientific community and refuse to check their interpretation with the scientific sphere. Science welcomes independent study to test the validity of theories. A religious bias (as any bias) rejects independent studies that contradict its desired outcome.
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A Catholic scientist’s study that can withstand scientific peer review is a good scientist—it doesn’t matter if s/he is a good Catholic.

Sandy Malia, Angela, Stella More, chameleon,sock puppets et al, we are legion: Give it a rest.  It’s not all about you.  There is nothing that will satisfy a soul that spits out the words “I will not serve”. Cackling with your friends won’t appease your restless soul.  You feel compelled to haunt this Catholic site, but we get tired of your hate, even while we pray for your soul.

annalisa—
If it bothers you, turn off your notification of comments, like Claire does when she is annoyed by people who challenge her pretenses.
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Until this sites demand that only comments that are approved by you and Claire are part of the conditions of replying on this site, I have every right to be here.

“Look, nobody wants to sit here and talk about it, but people have premarital sex more than they don’t this day and age.”

Is this the norm for Christian thought and teaching? If others are doing it, it must be fine?

Jesus teaches us in Chapter 19: 1-12 about the importance of marriage to God, with man and wife becoming one. 

Premartial sex may feel good and is part of the crowd, but seems 180deg counter to had Jesus describes for us as a Christian relationship between a man and women.

But if it was the crowd enjoys or what the polls tell us, then it must be right.  A Christian should remember there was a poll one Good Friday and the crowd shouted “Crucify Him!”

Christianity is hard and demands deeper thought than “Look, nobody wants to sit here and talk about it…”  In fact, life demands more.

@Sandy Malia - Please, take a look at Casti Connubii.  Pius XI specifically allows “virtuous continence (which Christian law permits in matrimony when both parties consent)”.  That’s a direct quote by the way.  He goes on to say that it is wrong in a Catholic marriage to frustrate the marital act through other (artificial) means.  But he does acknowledge that there are difficulties of the mother and family circumstances where delaying children may be desirable.
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I think you’re confusing a primary good in marriage - raising up one’s children for the greater glory of God - with the only good in marriage.  And I really think you’re confused about what the Church teaches regarding life affirming, unitive sex.  Please, read the document which you believe says the only reason married people have sex is to have babies.  The document quite clearly does not say that.

S.M.:  When I said that we get tired of haters, it’s because most people do.  I think you should remain here. Your presence here serves a good purpose.  Many people simply can’t understand how our good God would allow any soul to be lost.  God wants to draw all souls to himself.  He simply will not force us to be or do anything.  He respects our choice.

Dan,
I’m not sure how the discussion went from Catholic women who use contraception to premarital sex. I think the question is why is contraception used at all?
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Jennifer, et al. have reduced it to whether it should be “artificial contraception,” which focuses on rendering the female partner infertile so couples can have sex anytime they want without conception. The conversation drifted to the physical effects of the Pill, IUDs, etc. on women’s health—no comment about condoms because they don’t have an effect on the woman’s cycle.
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So maybe you have directed the exchange in the right direction. The Church regards marriage as the only appropriate union for sexual relations. The PRIMARY purpose of marital sexual relations is to produce children in a stable relation. The SECONDARY purpose of marital relations is to enhance the bond between husband and wife with the mutual pleasure of the union.
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In Kathleen’s analogy—we enjoy eating vegetables because they taste good, but nature’s “purpose” is that we eat vegetables to keep ourselves healthy. We enjoy sex, but nature’s (God’s) “purpose” is that we make babies. The Pope decreed the same thing.
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So, your questions is why should anyone want sex without being married to his/her partner? Why did God put the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and then tell Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit?

Anna lisa—it may shock you, but you are not the authority to tell anyone to leave this comment forum. I expect that eventually my computer IDs will be blacklisted, but that is not your call.
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If you don’t like me, ignore me and/or stop notification of replies to this post. After all, your whining to me is not contributing to the conversation. You are only trying to get rid of me because you find me annoying. Not my problem.

@anna lisa - I do think Sandy Malia should stay here.  I think she has a lot to learn about our Faith.  She obviously hates our faith, but the opposite of love is not hate.  It is indifference.  And indifferent she is not.  And she’s also mistaken about what our faith actually teaches, e.g. “The Vatican, however, decreed that the institution of marriage is for the sole purpose of procreation and ANY effort to have sex within marriage (let alone out of marriage) that does not have the chance of conception of a child is sinful.”  -What??? 
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Maybe she’ll actually undergo a conversion while hanging out here trying to play “gotcha”.  All things are possible with God.

Sandy,
Thanks for your comments.You may have confused another poster’s remarks with mine.
I think we agree in that NFP is an excellent method to gain knowledge of a woman’s natural cycles & body chemistry.How NFP is applied varies depending on the needs of the user.
If you have questions regarding Church teaching & NFP, I’d start with the Catechism. There are additional resources online, too.
Thank you for your interest in this.

Sandy Malia said, “So far Lin has written the only point of view that makes sense. You can be a Catholic and disagree with the Church on some issues.”

I think it is hillarious that the only statement that makes sense to you is a heretical one (forgive my bluntness Lin).

There are a whole lot of us seniors who used that and I for one am sorry.  We just have one daughter.  However, when I got married in 1965, the priests more or less condoned it.  We were told it was “up to us” when to have children.  I don’t recall any priests talking about this.  There was plenty of controversy and I really didn’t know that this was sinful until I came back to the church about 10 years ago.  During the 70’s it seemed that the Church (or local priests and bishops) never talked about this.  In fact I worked for a Catholic paper that went out of its way to say it was “up to your conscience”.  But, there wasn’t much natural family planning then.  Now that Catholic women do have natural ways to avoid pregnancy and to space their children, this should also be talked about.  And don’t say that abstinence is “not the way to go”.  For years I thought that also, but marriage is so much more.  Because of health reasons, we can no longer have that bond, but love is all about sacrifice.

My story: Twenty-six years ago I started marriage on pill at 22.  Priests said it was fine. (Vatican II left it in our hands) In our hearts, even my non Catholic husband (at the time) desired to discern the truth.  I was teaching with perimenopausal women who across the board, it seemed to me, regretted not having more children.  I felt their sadness and determined not to be one of them.  We had our first child after two years of marriage and never contracepted again.  Why? Several reasons, argued for complete openness to God’s plan for our family, however, the beauty of co-creating with God and participating in the amazing gift of loving and raising children guided our decisions. We have been sympto-thermal NFP instructors, and are fully aware of how to space children.  Yet ecological breastfeeding spaced all of our kids about 2 years apart.  Now 49 years old, I have a peace that surpasses understanding because I know that I have never intentionally skipped a fertile cycle.  Therefore, I know that I have all the children/gifts God wanted to give me.  For me, bearing and raising children to the glory of God is the greatest sign of the Trinity in this world, and of the action of the theological virtues.  This is a deeply spiritual endeavor for me or else I could not have born and raised 12 children in addition to my 3 babies lost to miscarriage.  We have been through difficult financial times, physical disability, bed rest, job loss, home loss….however, God has always provided in abundance (even after a time of desert dwelling:)  I would not have my Benny Boo (12th child) if I had been fearful of another miscarriage or handicapped child since he was born when I was 47.  As an aside, The Blessed Mother gave us his name, Benedict, which means blessing, even though I was naming him after the Pope!  We have chosen to live in Phase II hope and expectation almost our entire marriage.  This has brought us great joy, which has included the grief of 3 lost babies.  Yet, I have seen the face of God revealed in my family and other families who trust in God without holding back. Many people from all walks of life tell me how blessed they are by my family. To all people,  if you must error, error on the side of life!  Few regret the children they have, despite the hardships.  Trust in God!  He never fails!  God bless you each as you, guided by the Holy Spirit, discern God’s will for your marriage. Holy Family, pray for us!

@Justaguy (Is there someway I can tag this to make sure he sees it??)
Your story breaks my heart!  You aren’t wrong in your idea of ‘not initiating’, the actual act.  But I do hope that you ‘make love’ in other ways.  The homily at our wedding was about ‘Making Love Everyday”, meaning every act of love is important, not just the conjugal act.  Physical affection and acts of service will soften your wife’s heart.  It will bring her closer to you and closer to God, so that she will want to be of the same mind and heart…

Perhaps the thought of more children scares your wife b/c she feels you are distant?  From a wife’s perspective, I can put myself in her shoes, and it’s easy to see how the thought of adding another child to a marriage that feels unfulfilling, would feel scary!.  And I’m sure she has other reasons. 

Make her fall in love with you, just like you did when you were dating, before you were intimate.  Ask her to start over.  Tell her you want to have the best marriage possible, that you want everyone you know to wish they had a marriage like yours!  And when the 2 of you commit to figuring out how to have the greatest marriage this side of heaven, it will lead you both to study and discovery about what the Catholic Church says about marriage and why.

I will be praying for you!

@Eileen, maybe you missed what I wrote to “Sandy Malia”. I wrote it to S.M., since she/he uses so many user names, and his manner of speech leads me to believe he’s male.  I think he serves a valid function here.  I hope the best for him/her, though after nearly a year he is still spouting the same narrow rhetoric, even when others spell. the. truth. out. to. him.  He is here to try to demoralize Catholics struggling with their faith because he pathologically *hates* the faith.  He took special pleasure in Jennifer’s illness, and of course anyone who can spit on the memory of Mother Teresa may as well be operating with a laptop from a cavern, hanging upside down.

This is why they call them trolls.  Trolls exhibit troll-like behavior.  We of course are breaking the cardinal rule on the care and feeding of trolls because we have teenagers! :)!

@Barry:  ” Personally, I feel as though the Church should teach a “hierarchy of evil” when it comes to contraception, with IUDs and chemical contraceptives on the “absolutely forbidden” list and condoms on the “if you absolutely must, even though it’s not the perfect way” list.  By treating them all the same, couples on the pill feel they’re just as “wrong” as couples using condoms during fertile times (like us).”

I agree completely. I think the current approach unintentionally downplays the evils of chemical contraception by comparing them to condoms. (Chemical “contraception” is really temporary sterilization, a worse sin.)

This pamphlet from the Archdiocese of Washington released in response to Humanae Vitae in 1968 seems to hint that couples who supplement “rhythm” with occasional condom use have not necessarily cut themselves off from God’s love. http://twotlj.org/Sex in Marriage.pdf The debate has, unfortunately, become more polarized over the years, which helps no one.

I do think an overly legalistic approach is keeping couples from even trying, and I think a more pastoral approach is necessary.

Nevertheless, the teachings are quite sound. If NFP is difficult, there is usually a reason for that. If a couple is struggling, they need to step back, look at this. Is this a purely physical issue? Are they charting correctly? Are they overly frightened of pregnancy? Are there problems with a lack of non-sexual intimacy? Why are relations in the infertile phase unsatisfying? While I don’t think that couples who occasionally use condoms are horrible awful sinners, doing so is an indication of a problem and a problem that shouldn’t be ignored.

Sojourner,  Thank you!!  I really needed to hear that, and I couldn’t agree with your approach more.

@still so confused: You have been given a gift. A gift of fertility. You aren’t grateful for it, though, and so it has become a burden to you. There are women like me, who are unable to have more than one child, who listen to your complaints about your fertility and feel incredible sorrow. Fertility is a gift that you take for granted. It is my recommendation to you that you try to understand why God has given you the gift of fertility rather than continuing to view it as a burden.  Believe me, if God has given you a gift it is for a reason. If God has made you so fertile it is because He needs your help in raising up children of God. Perhaps you should talk to Him, rather than at Him, and seek to better understand His will.  Children are answers to prayers of the past, present, and future. He is trying to answer prayers through you - but you aren’t cooperating with Him.  I have a friend whose husband is a teacher. He makes $60,000 a year. They have 10 children and live quite comfortably even though one of those children has Down’s Syndrome. God always makes a way. Trust in Him, trust that He will never give you more than what you and He together can handle.  This is my advice to you, as one who has struggled to accept God’s will for my life.  I wanted many children, but God only saw fit to give me the one.

@James and Barry: Perhaps you are unaware of the biblical passage in which God killed Onan for the crime of spilling his seed on the ground to avoid getting his wife pregnant? Gen. 38:8 Then Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.’ 9 But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to see his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. 10 What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.

Condoms prevent the man’s semen from entering the woman’s vaginal canal as the means of preventing pregnancy. Sounds harmless enough, but it actually deprives women of the beneficial vitamins and minerals found in semen and can cause her to have problems getting pregnant later because her body isn’t being exposed to the antibodies present in his semen and so her body rejects the child as foreign. Think on that before you whip out the condoms again - you could be killing your next child with that decision.

The only thing I learned here about Catholic “faith” is that it is a great means to have your cake and eat it too.
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Families need to space their children for the well being of every member—in an industrial society. Having 14 children in 15 years is a luxury that few people can afford in this country.
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It took a while for the Church to recognize this necessity, yet the invention of the birth control pill and other contraceptive devices used only by the woman cannot be sanctioned. Suddenly Catholics are all up-in-arms about women’s health and the health risks involved in “artificial contraception.” The same people who insist that pregnancy can never endanger a mother’s life seem to know more about contraception and its effects than the medical professionals that prescribe them.
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What a dilemma! Non-Catholic families have healthier lifestyles, can afford to give the kids they do have the best education and chances in life, and great, unregulated sex. Catholics have only abstinence. So the science of monitoring a woman’s fertility phase becomes the Catholic “back-door” to avoid compete abstinence while spacing children. “Natural Family Planning” sounds so much nicer than “contraception” when couples plan for sex ONLY when the woman is in the infertile part of her cycle.
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LarryW2LJ and his wife have been celibate throughout most of their married life and they are happily married. He had the option of getting his marriage annulled because his wife was unable to have children. This couple stuck to their faith and didn’t split hairs.

Dear Brandy, I am sorry for your suffering all these years.  I know God has used your fertility as a way to sanctify you and others.  I want you to know that I have prayed for people like you.  I have offered up morning sickness for you.  I have prayed after miscarriages that you would be given another baby.  I have been open to life all these years as a way to say thank you to God for my (conjugal) fertility. In part,  I have received these children with love as a way to honor your “side of the coin”:  faithfulness in struggling with infertility.  Thanks for your faithful witness!  I know you have born much fruit through your suffering.

Brandy,
Brandy, you bring up a valid medical issue thought to be involved with pre-eclampsia.However, that can also happen with “honeymoon” pregnancies.And the mother’s life is in jeopardy, as well as the child.Genetics & anti-immune issues can make one more at risk, too.
Thanks for your comments.

Um, Sandy, the Chuch was up in arms about condoms in the 1930’s which are definitely not used by the woman alone.  And the Chuch is right to be concerned about the side effects of hormonal contraception because, well, there are side effects.
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You keep referring to the Church mandating huge families.  Our faith does not ask us to have 14 or 15 children.  Some families may well be called by God to have that many.  Others may be called to fufill God’s plan by having 2 or 3 kids and then helping out those Duggar sized families, few of whom could get by without at least some help from smaller families.  Our Church does not require that a mother give up her career to care for her children.  In fact, there is very little in marriage and childrearing that the Church doesn’t leave for each couple to determine on its own using their own unique talents and gifts.  Our Church only asks that each of us remain faithful in carrying out God’s will here on earth.

Um—Eileen—I know the Catholic Church has lied about condoms for a long time. Where was all the fuss about men’s health back then?
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I didn’t say the Church mandated huge families. The point is that people are not supposed to interfere with God’s plan and nature’s means of producing offspring by sex. True, the pleasure is icing on the cake, but it’s not the primary purpose of sex. Learning about a woman’s cycle and when she is most fertile and least fertile, then having sex only when she is least fertile is inherently a means of contraception. The same principle underlies the use of condoms, and now the pill and other modern devices.

Where has the church lied about condoms?

@Brandy: I could have a long discussion about Onan, but nobody has been smitten for using a condom in quite some time. The condom is not good, but it is considerably less bad than the Pill. The two should not be treated in the same way.

As far as this health benefit is concerned, using condoms during the fertile times is no different than abstaining. Either way, the wife does not receive her husband’s semen. I took Barry’s comment to mean that a couple would not be using condoms during times of infertility, so she would get it then.

Just the thought of condoms is so repugnant.  Way back when I didn’t understand why they were wrong, I found them to be really lacking.  They offended me on several levels, even if I couldn’t put my finger on the true reason for the deepest disquiet they left me with.

I have never used an actual NFP chart, I just appreciated understanding the general signs of fertility.  Ecological breastfeeding spaced my babies enough so that I almost never had two in diapers.  I’d say it spaced our children perfectly.  It’s beautiful how the body works, without having to cuddle up to big Pharma.

Eileen—you have a computer with access to the internet. Just Google “Catholic Church lies about condoms.”
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” Our Church does not require that a mother give up her career to care for her children.  In fact, there is very little in marriage and childrearing that the Church doesn’t leave for each couple to determine on its own using their own unique talents and gifts.  Our Church only asks that each of us remain faithful in carrying out God’s will here on earth.”
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Eileen—having a career is not a means of contraception. I agree that is a reason many couples use contraception, but a woman’s career is not in itself a method.
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Why do you keep avoiding my point?

James, you also seem miss the point. The Catholic Church holds all methods of contraception as forbidden. It makes no difference if it’s by condom, pill, timing for infertile phases of the woman’s cycle. It’s the purpose, not the methods that concern the Church.
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Still, the my healthcare center is not being picketed for providing free condoms in it’s waiting area.

@saran wrap—no one would guess you were repelled by condoms by your pen-name.

So few people get this:

Hormonal contraception tends to mess with a woman’s libido.

This is a KNOWN thing, folks. Look it up. Google it.

Libido is measured in various ways in this context: Overall arousal and arousability, ability to climax, and “recharge time” (that is to say, the average number of days between one lovemaking session and her first stirrings of interest in having another).

All these areas of libido are affected by free testosterone in the blood; and free testosterone becomes “bound” when artificial hormones are introduced to the mix.

The reduction of libido differs from woman to woman, with some women experiencing little reduction, and other women experiencing “flatline”: No libido at all (and thus her husband’s sole sexual experiences are “mercy sex, duty sex, meant-kindly-but-perfunctory sex”).

Also, frighteningly, there’s some evidence to show the body becomes habituated to the altered hormone balance. The longer a woman is using hormonal contraception, the more likely it is that even after she stops taking the pill, not all of her libido will come back.

Also, the longer she’s on it, typically, the longer it takes to come back.

Also, the older she is, typically, the greater reduction in libido and the longer it takes to come back and the more likely it is that not all of it will come back.

Put all that together and one guesses that hormonal contraception has been responsible for an awful lot of divorces amongst Christian couples.

It’s especially difficult on the Christian young men who’ve been most faithful to Christ by keeping themselves virgins until marriage: Each one with a healthy strong libido, he falls in love with a Christian girl, exerts huge willpower to keep things under control until the wedding, and (judging by the difficulty his intended has in keeping her hands off him) thinks he’s in for a blissful first year of marriage.

But the girl dutifully starts taking birth control pills a few weeks before the wedding, of course: After all, they don’t want kids right away, and everyone tells them they need to be prudent. Suddenly, two weeks before the wedding, she seems less affectionate, more distracted, more focused on the prosaic side of life and less inclined to hug on her groom-to-be. Naturally he writes it off to the stress of wedding planning, which it mostly is. And perhaps things go pretty well on the honeymoon, although if we’re talking two chaste Christian kids there will be the usual awkwardness getting started.

But then wedded life begins, and the guy is puzzled: She was so affectionate before the wedding, and now what’s this? She’s thinking about everything except making love. He’s been holding in all this pent-up libido since he was thirteen, and he’s been looking forward to marriage as the time when it will finally be okay...and suddenly things get started with…a dry spell?

What a bait-and-switch!

But he’s a Christian guy, so of course he immediately feels guilty for feeling that way. He knows he’s supposed to not be selfish. He knows Christian marriage is about give and take. He knows that Christlike love is sacrificial. He holds in his disappointment, tries not to be resentful. He tries to be grateful for the obligation-driven lovemaking, the maintenance-sex, the weeks-long intervals inbetween that constitutes his love-life over the ensuing years. But depending on the kind of man he is, he feels bitterly angry or whipped and disappointed. And he probably finds himself resenting God: For he was one of the good kids, one of the few who waited until marriage. (And this is how loyal obedience is repaid, God?!)

And thus do thousands of Christian men get cheated by pharmaceutical manufacturers out of what otherwise could have been a happier first year of marriage. And the women, too…but, since theirs is the blunted libido, they don’t feel they’re missing out. They’re just…absent, without leaving the room.

That’s the dynamic. If you ask, “Could that have contributed to the rising tide of divorces over the last 80 years?” I can only answer, “How could it NOT?” Come to think of it, the rising acceptance of pornography may also be related.

And that, friends, is the terrifically unsexy world that the Pill has wrought.

Was on the (literally) depressing pill for a year then on the jams and jells as Fr. Marx of sainted memory called them the next 3 years.  God blessedly sent us 2 children anyway and a faithful priest shocked the life out of me by casually mentioning that it was thought that the pill worked by causing early abortion (as of course it does).  We turned to NFP-the method that uses the human faculties of intellect and will- and in the course of time became so proud of each other for using restraint at certain times of the month and so in awe of the gift of bringing new life into the world who would live for all eternity that we wished greatly for more children.  God sent us one more and took our fourth baby just a few months into gestation.  We give him thanks for the children he sent us and what He has done for our marriage through the gift of natural family planning.

jams and jells—you still practiced contraception and used human knowledge to control your reproduction. I hope, for the sake of your soul, that you confessed and got absolution.

For Downton Abby fans:

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w00G_5NUxSA

”  It is certainly possible to use natural family planning exclusively throughout the reproductive years in a selfish manner, without sufficiently serious reason to avoid pregnancy. After all, what gift of God cannot be misused? Any method of birth regulation (including NFP) is evil if the intent is to deny God’s will for our reproductive lives. A couple who uses NFP to avoid having children that they could properly care for may either be ignorant of the evil of doing so, or may have essentially selfish motivations.”
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http://www.hli.org/index.php/natural-family-planning/590?task=view

It’s pretty simple: One can’t contracept without undermining/destroying part of the gift God has given.

What can one do? One can:

(a.) Use hormonal contraceptives, which tend to reduce libido and ease-of-orgasm, making women more emotionally prosaic and less emotionally inclined towards the erotic, such that even good wives frustrate their husbands through dull “duty sex” offered as a kindness or an act of pity rather than from desire or joy;

(b.) Use barrier methods like condoms, which in addition to the reduced sensation and occasional sexual dysfunction it induces in the man, tend to block the beneficial effects of semen, including the neurotransmitters and hormones which produce psychological mate-bonding in the woman, which means she’s less likely to care as much if the marriage eventually breaks up, and will even be marginally more likely to initiate a split;

(c.) Sterilize either the man or the woman (either permanently, or in such a way that restoration is costly, surgical, and with less-than-even chance of success) such that they may have sexual relations with the bonding hormones and the woman’s libido and the rest of it intact, but can never have any more children at all…which itself may subtly shift the psychology of the bond in undesirable ways.

Y’know, if we went and dumped hormones in a population of animals such that they always thought they were quasi-pregnant, or if we covered half their genitals with latex, we wouldn’t be surprised if species-wide dysfunction and crazy behavior suddenly occurred.

What do we think we are…Vulcans, or something? Gnostics, to think we would be so unaffected by our own biology? ...that we think we can do essentially the same thing to the human population and have no emotional and relational consequences? Foolishness!

I never did end up getting snowed in, but I’m the only one awake in my house right now, so I thought I would scan the comments.  I see there are a few good ones among the trollish ones.

Sandy:  I did not cop out, and trust me, you do not challenge me (except for my patience).  This thread has accumulated 260+ comments in 4 days.  Believe it or not, 60+ email notifications/day from one thread can be overwhelming when life gets busy.  Especially when the vast majority of the comments are from an anti-Catholic troll who pretends to know more about Church teaching than faithful Catholics who have studied the Catechism and the encyclicals, which are the only 100% reliable source of Church teaching (yet tells us to do our homework;  go figure).  I am breaking up my response into a few different comments so they will be less likely to be perceived as spam.

Sandy/Gloria:  you really, really need to work on your reading comprehension.  Larry’s wife was not unable to have children (and even if she was, that is not grounds for an annullment).  She had two children, and then they decided to be celibate because a future pregnancy could be risky for her.

Eileen is the one who wrote the vegetables analogy (a very good analogy, by the way), not Kathleen.  Kathleen has been very charitable to you in several comments.

So, I see that you have found one commenter who has earned your respect.  I remember respect was a big issue for you back when you were calling yourself Gloria. 

On a totally different subject:  answering a question is not bragging.  Did you ask me what good I have done in the world, just so you could accuse me of bragging all because I answered your question (a question you still refuse to answer, probably because you don’t have a good answer)?  I will keep that in mind the next time you ask me something.  Note to self:  don’t answer any of Gloria/Sandy’s questions.  She might appear to be asking in good faith, but in reality she’s asking so she can label the response to suit her purpose, when the question is answered.

I think “Saran Wrap” was a pen name specifically chosen to hint at one of her aversions to condoms.  So it’s not really ironic that she chose that name.

Okay, I’m off.  I will check in when I get a break in the next few days, and will subscribe to comments again when my life settles down or when the volume here slows down.  Happy weekend everyone, even the troll!

Just an FYI here from someone who has read all of the comments:  My Catholic brothers and sisters here that want to be pleasing to our Lord inspire me just as much as the best sermon in the world.  You are beautiful.  Thank you for your witness. I look forward to meeting all of you one day.

Gosh, you all make the same inane,stupid comments, it’s so easy to confuse who wrote what. Anyway I made my point, but everyone seems to be avoiding it and talking about tangents.
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The point about Larry, or whoever, is that he stayed abstinent all the time rather than “cheat” by using NFP to prevent his wife from getting pregnant.
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Condoms are not made of saran-wrap, but saran-wrap is used as a barrier for cunnilingus. SW ought to do more research.
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The point is that people are not supposed to interfere with God’s plan and nature’s means of producing offspring by sex. True, the pleasure is icing on the cake, but it’s not the primary purpose of sex. Learning about a woman’s cycle and when she is most fertile and least fertile, then having sex only when she is least fertile is inherently a means of contraception. The same principle underlies the use of condoms, and now the pill and other modern devices. NFP is used as contraception.

I never asked you to tell me your “good works,” I just said that everyone can’t be like you. How you took that comment is your problem. Your sure resent that I don’t give a damn.
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Shock me, write something intelligent.

I went to the movies with my husband tonight.  There was one little thing that bothered me.  It was this: that I said that I admired everyone who is trying to be “pleasing to our Lord”.  I realized that that description sounds like it’s from a 1950’s catechism (British mini series?).  What I wanted to say is that love requires fire, a fire by trial, a burning up for another, an oblation of self.  The word “pleasing” doesn’t come close.  Thanks be to God for love lived passionately. Thank you for your beautiful stories of Truth lived purely , honestly, and yes, *passionately*.  How beautiful and inspiring.

My husband asked what I was doing, so I explained the thread to him, and than read what I wrote, he corrected what I wrote by saying, “on fire for our Lord.” Yes!

Me and my ex-wife used NFP. She felt like she wasn’t getting enough sex, so she had an affair and is now married to him.

Well, they didn’t say that NFP was contraception for everyone!

Do you think we’re that stupid?  Nice try, sock puppet Sandy.  Lol.

Yes, I do think many Catholics are that stupid—and no Catholic have a sense of humor!

But, you confirmed my point about NFP being Catholic contraception.

Tell it to the judge.  Eventually you’re going to have to come out of the closet and see sterile, gay, sex for what it really is.  Yes, I know, sterility wants some lonely company, but there is no comparison.  It’s worse than comparing apples and oranges, because apples and oranges are both good.  Gay sex is disordered.  Period.
And don’t even get me going on your grisly support of abortion.  Some day, you will be SO ashamed of this!
Anyone who supports the murder of innocent babies CAN’T have any sense of humor whatsoever!  What a creepy perversion.  Creepers aren’t funny. At. all.

Who wrote anything about gay sex? Or the murder of babies?
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This is about methods of contraception. NFP is Catholic contraception.
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By the way, I’m killing as many babies as I want and having all the gay sex I want. I’m not ashamed, nor do I think I ever will be.

Great post, R.C.  When will people get it?

@sandy sock puppet, you think every new thread erases our memory from what you said on the last thread?  Or the one before that?
In regard to *this* thread do you think you are going to convince us that fasting is the same as eating and then purging?  I don’t think even *you* believe that abstinence is the same as a condom.
What IS your point by saying you will kill, sodomize, and fornicate?  Are we supposed to be impressed or shocked? Most of us already know a good number of people who do the same. That makes you one of many.  Congratulations on your club membership.
All of the ones I know in your club think that:
a. they are too awesome to go to Hell
-or-
b. Hell doesn’t exist
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Good luck with that.

Nugas garris! Spurcifer sceleris plenissime! Supprime tuum stultiloquium! 
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Stulte! Vappa ac nebulo! Stercoreus sterculinum publicum! 
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Bliteus belua es! Nihil spurcius est te!  Frustra es homo!
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Abi sis, belua! Fugite in malam crucem!

@Grace: Check out http://www.1flesh.org/, a website created by young college students seeking to challenge the cultural status quo, to learn more about NFP! ~From a happily married 23 yr old NFP user:)

My daughter likes to talk to her cousin on facebook in Serbian.  Isn’t it amazing what Google can do?  We think it’s cute, but we don’t bother to translate.  It’s their business and we don’t really care.
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Trolls aren’t like cute schoolgirls, they’re more like buzzing gnats.  They make a lot of droning noises, but people just wave them away.

This matter is so close to my heart. I swear I’m not Amanda or Lauren, but I could be!!!! I’m a lifelong Catholic. I was so contrite when I read for myself what the Church has to say about pre-marital sex and contraception. My parents and my catechists never shared these truths with me. My mom only spoke of safe sex - never abstinence. I used Birth Control pills for a very short time and then other forms of contraception. I’m so thankful I’ve not gone so far as to have surgery (despite urging from other Catholics). With the sexual abuse scandal, I feel like the Church is backing even further away from fully addressing these matters. I won’t make that mistake with my children, but I know there are lots of others like me.

Well, I suppose you prefer “troll filter” to me. The typical Catholic trope—if you don’t believe, we’ll kill you and you will burn in hell!
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Don’t worry if you don’t understand my comments above. Curses work even when the target doesn’t know what they mean.
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Unless “troll filter” is really Claire.

For the love of God and neighbor, and out of respect for this thoughtful conversation, can you few bickeers please stop?!  I have 12 children and I teach them that just walking away is okay. They don’t need to “win”, and neither do either of you. God, the Father of Justice, sees everything!  You’re ruining this discussion by bantering back and forth, and that is the goal of the evil one. Once a comment is discerned by a person to be “troll-esk”, (which I’m not saying anybody has been)refuse to engage! Jesus was silent before the mocking crowds and accusatory Sanhedrin. Let’s be life giving, especially considering the topic!  Thanks.

I was presenting a valid point that NFP is Catholic contraception and “troll filter” got all pornographic about it!
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I do feel sorry for “troll filter,” though. S/he must have been terribly hurt at some point in his/her life to be so bitter and ponder such disgusting, sexual ideas.

Ok Sojourner, I will bow out.  I confess that I felt an inordinate amount of mirth in the devil-curse from our resident “pet”.  I don’t think it can deflect from the beauty of the conversation here; it perfectly illustrates (rather graphically!) what St. Paul tried to convey to us about the kind of war that we are in. I’m a little disordered for feeling so smug about the troll exposing itself so PERFECTLY…okay, sorry, there I go again!  I accept my red-card for this thread. :)!

I am a middle-aged male who is just old enough to remember pre-V2. I was married in the Catholic church; my wife quickly dropped NFP because she felt that most of the burden was on her. After a turbulent 10 years, with virtually no help from the Church (despite my many pleas) she got her divorce.

I am no longer a Catholic. The comments for this article are a good example of why I left the Church: No one seems to know what it really means to be a Catholic. Since V2 the Church has conformed to the secular world by all sorts of wiggle room: annulments (Catholic Divorce), NFP (Catholic BC), don’t ask/don’t tell (premarital sex/fornication), Friday offering (choose your own alternative to meatless),and the list goes on.

To me, so much of today’s Catholicism in the USA appears to be how to remain Catholic while enjoying the pleasures of secular society. I am the oldest of 12 children. I understood this as divine bc but now I hear it called, rather disdainfully, providentialism (like trusting in God is such a bad deal-guess who’s in charge of Eternity?).

All these discussions and comments remind me of Mt 23:24, “Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!” Catholicsm in the USA is in chaos. The shephards have abandoned us and we have scattered and become food for the wild beasts (Ez 34:5). I pray for the Good Shephard to rescue my soul.

I really appreciated LarryW2LJ comment above about how he put his wife and God ahead of his own sexual needs. There is always someone out there that says that they just keep having kids despite being miserable because NFP doesn’t work for them. Assuming that they are being honest with themselves and us, why is abstinence out of the question.

When I decided to join the Catholic Church and found out that my marriage was not valid, I decided to do things Gods way. I prayed for his help and he gave me his grace to have the strength to live with my wife as brother and sister for six months while waiting for the Church to determine my previous marriage was not valid and then to validate my current marriage. I would have never believed it was possible. Prior to Gods help, I couldn’t go a week without falling apart. But with divine assistance, it really wasn’t difficult at all. If NFP doesn’t work for some reason, or the risk can’t be taken, recognize that your relationship to your spouse should be much deeper than just sex. If it isn’t, there is probably something wrong with your relationship in the first place. Why can an act that takes no more than 30 minutes or an hour a week, control your whole life.

What makes us think that God can’t give us the same strength he has given priests for 2000 years. Prior to contraceptives, couples had to abstain if they couldn’t risk having children. What makes people today so weak that they would rather disobey God than give up sex?

No, “troll filter”/“exposing the troll” must be Claire. “She” is the one who started calling me troll, “Gloria, etc.,followed by her faithful puppy anna lisa. Claire has been trying to draw attention to how she’s a wonderful Catholic for adopting a “hard to place” child and risking his life when she didn’t want to pay for an inpatient stay out-of-pocket.
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It makes sense that she would have an “alter-ego” who writes with such pornographic imagery.

Popping back in here on a break from work.  Looks like I picked a great time to check. I am still unsubscribed from comments.  Sandy/Gloria:  how dare you, a self-proclaimed baby killer, twist my words and say that I risked my son’s life? My son is my life.  I am an RN.  I did not sign him out AMA.  When the doctors and I were on the fence about admitting him, since I am an RN and live close to the hospital, we decided to bring him home.  Yes, finances played into it.  The only reason I told you about that situation and the circumstances about his adoption was because at the time I did not realize that you were Gloria, and you asked me questions about what good I had done in the world and if I knew what it was like to have trouble affording healthcare for my child.  You are a sick, evil person who clearly can’t comprehend the complexities of Catholic teaching on NFP.  I am not “troll exposer” or “troll filter”.  I suspect that Annalisa is, and is giving you a taste of your own medicine by posting under multiple names. The last comment I posted was on Saturday night.  Annalisa made an excellent analogy about fasting vs eating and purging.  Tami on 2/7 also explained the whole thing, using reliable sources (namely papal documents).  You aren’t fooling anyone here into thinking that you know what you’re talking about.  But dragging an innocent baby into the situation is an all-time low, even for you.  I pray to God that you never become a mother, because I wouldn’t wish any innocent child to be the victim of your warped, sick mind.

“Claire”
I wrote before—Catholics have no sense of humor. I wrote that I kill as many babies and have as much gay sex that I want. You assume I want to—that is a sick prejudice. I’ve killed at least as many, if not less, babies than you have. And you “didn’t know I was Gloria”—that’s an excuse?!?
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I expected you to deny that you were “troll filter/expose the troll.” That’s what guilty people do—deny everything. I’m sure annalisa will appreciate you blaming her.
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The rest of your comment is suspiciously like “troll filter.”

“You’re ruining this discussion by bantering back and forth, and that is the goal of the evil one.”

I agree with you Sojouner. Thanks for speaking up.  It would be helpful if NCR or Jennifer stepped in once in awhile to guide these conversations.  It becomes so unproductive.

Oh please give it a rest, stop trying to “school” Catholics and lay off of Claire.  I said that my daughter uses Google translate to speak in Serbian with her cousin on Facebook.  Claire only has a young son.  Reading comprehension my friend!...FYI, Catholics never laugh about dead baby jokes.  Sorry Sojourner.  I’m gone.

The average Catholic does not know their Faith accurately and in entirety.  This is due in part to lack of teaching from the pulpit, and most importantly due to the fact that many Priests and US Bishops do not actively and publically promote the reading and study of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” - even though we have been instructed to do so by Pope Benedict during the year of Faith.
People can not accurately share (evangelize) what they do not know.
If they have never been told that contraception is a MORTAL SIN, they continue to receive the “Real Presence” without Confession.
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CCC: ” 2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).”
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CCC: “2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.
These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom.
In contrast, every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil:
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other.
This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.”
(For more info on the CCC, go to “What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE” on the net.  http://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com

fRed, Casti Connubii (1930) approved of use of natural infertile periods and Pius XII quoted it when explicitly allowing couples who had serious reasons to avoid pregnancy to use the rhythm method (before NFP had been discovered).

All of this was well before Vatican II.

NFP is associated with the post-Vatican II Church ONLY because modern NFP wasn’t discovered until the mid-1960s. It is purely coincidental.

Pope Paul VI had access to some of the early studies that showed the modern method was highly effective at preventing pregnancy before he issued Humanae Vitae. Indeed, he called on scientists to keep researching to help couples in this area.

James-Fudge, fudge, fudge…that is all I hear. Seems to be more interest in following the “rules” on being a Catholic than loving God and following Christ. So much effort to “strain out the gnat” in order “to swallow the camel.” “Do not conform yourself to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect” [Rom 12:2] “You must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds” [Eph 4:17]

Ann-I agree that the average Catholic is ignorant about their faith, to a large part due to lack of teaching by the clergy/shephards. The CCC is a good start but note that the 2nd edition was prepared AFTER V2, so it tends to be subject to the similar weak points that have plagued the Church since V2. Thus, it is no wonder there is so much confusion, chaos, and ignorance. After V2 so much was left open for the individual to decide, based on their own conscience (with prayer and spiritual direction, of course. “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what he thought best.” [Jgs 17:6; 21:25] Good Shephard, be my King and save me!

I have to agree with fRed on this one. It is very easy to start looking at the tenets of the Catholic Church as ‘rules’ where we try to ‘strain out the gnat’. It is easier because we don’t have to think about the reasons behind the ‘rules’. And yes the V2 CCC has made it harder to determine what is truly right and what is truly wrong. It does appear that the reason for the way it is written is to make Catholic think about the reasons behind the ‘rules’ but most of us Catholics just don’t have the time to ‘be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God is’.

That is why when returning to the Catholic Church I used the older Baltimore Catechism to get an explanation of what the tenets are and why they are. If it hadn’t been for it, I don’t know that I would have completed my journey. I hear so many varying beliefs by Catholic and even some priests.

I grew up Catholic yet I had no idea what the Catholic Church believed or why. All I learned in CCD as a teenager was the importance of loving our neighbor and giving to the disadvantaged and I never learned why I should even do that simple truth. Now that I have the V2 CCC, I am also looking for a pre V2 version that I can use to get a fuller understanding of these truths.

fRed,

Casti Connubii and Pius XII aren’t pre-V2 enough for you?

With your quoting scripture and doubting the teaching of the Church, I believe you have become so Catholic you are Protestant.

“The regulation of births”
“Spacing of children”
How is this “not birth control?”
I’ve looked over the comments of most people here, and they AGREE that NFP is contraception—and not for everyone.
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Now the hair-splitting comes into question—is the motive behind contraception—even NFP—morally sanctioned in Catholicism? Or are humans supposed to “let God” decide? Is knowledge about when a woman is infertile and timing sexual intimacy ONLY for those periods not intended for against conception?.
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Maybe the next Pope can figure it out.

To the women reading this article who are confused: As a mother of a large family who does not use NFP or any other kind of system to prevent children; Just have the children God sends you as Catholics have always done. God does not change. Maybe you will be poor. We ourselves live below the poverty line in our state. Yet we have all we need. Maybe you will have to pray a lot for everything. Good! Maybe you will suffer much in childbirth and with complications. Yes that happens, it has happened to me several times. Yes you can die from childbirth or too many c-sections! Yes, and also in a car accident, yet we drive! NFP is a snare. That is from my observation of 20 years as a Catholic mother witnessing the complications and evil this system has brought upon the families that use it. It would take pages for me to explain what I have seen. Pray,trust,read about families before Vatican 2. How did Catholic families do it for thousands of years? By the grace of God. The same God. God does not change. May Our Lady of Good Success protect you.

How is NFP contraception when there is no act of sex to contracept?

Per Webster’s New World Dictionary/Second College Edition: “Contraception” [contra (against) + {con}ception] the intentional prevention of fertilization of the human ovum, as by special devices, drugs, etc.

While the definition ackowledges special devices and drugs, note the position of the comma after ovum as well as the use of “etc.”  Also note that the most basic meaning is “against conception.”

I would say NFP is to BC as heavy petting is to sex. Perhaps in a very specific technical sense they are not exactly the same, but in reality they are close enough. “C’mon baby, trust me.”

Popping in again on another break from work, and will remain unsubscribed but pop in again when my schedule allows, since there continues to be some constructive dialogue amongst the troll activity.  To add to that:

Preventing vs avoiding/Contraception vs NFP:  prevening pregnancy implies that a pregnancy is likely to occur if we don’t do anything to stop it, that we intend to stop something that would likely naturally occur if not interfered with. Avoiding pregnancy, on the other hand, implies that we simply choose not to do something that might result in pregnancy; nature continues on its course.

Even NFP for the most selfish reasons is not contraceptive. The couple
is not saying “by any means necessary”, but pregnancy avoidance through
self-discipline and self-control. It does not subvert the natural process,
but cooperates with it.

I’ve noticed that you never let a thought interrupt the flow of your conversation. If you won’t pay attention to me, at least look at other comments who acknowledge that they use/used NFP as a method of contraception.
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“Preventing vs avoiding/Contraception vs NFP:  prevening pregnancy implies that a pregnancy is likely to occur if we don’t do anything to stop it, that we intend to stop something that would likely naturally occur if not interfered with. Avoiding pregnancy, on the other hand, implies that we simply choose not to do something that might result in pregnancy; nature continues on its course.
Even NFP for the most selfish reasons is not contraceptive. The couple
is not saying “by any means necessary”, but pregnancy avoidance through
self-discipline and self-control. It does not subvert the natural process,
but cooperates with it.”
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Claire/Troll Filter/Exposer of Trolls: There you go splitting hairs, like I knew you would. Yes, preventing pregnancy implies there might be a pregnancy if we don’t do anything to stop it. Measuring a woman’s temperature, etc. to determine whether she is the most fertile or least fertile phases of her cycle, then DELIBERATELY HAVING SEX ONLY WHEN SHE IS IN HER INFERTILE PHASE IS DOING SOMETHING TO AVOID PREGNANCY. The same principle is the reason for using a condom—to prevent conception by doing something to prevent sperm from uniting with the egg.
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Both methods are not the most effective methods of contraception. There have been broken condoms and mis-interpretation of the phase of a woman’s cycle, that result in unplanned pregnancy. “Planning” when conception will occur is what “Natural Family Planning” does. It’s the intent preventing pregnancy until you want to have a child.
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Do you still love nature, despite what it did to you?

The Lord does work in mysterious ways. I grew up a cradle Catholic woman thinking its was okay to use contraception and kept thinking that way until I was graced with a meaningful conversion when I reached 50. There were no real teaching opportunities provided along the way, and it wasn’t until I began to understand the profound respect we must give to God as the author of life that I completely understood and embraced the Church’s views on contraception and other life-protection issues. Although opportunities are rare for me, I try to share what I have learned in a nonjudgmental way and hope that someone else might start to think about what it really means to understand that God is the author of life.

Posted by Lin on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2013 5:55 PM (EST):

How is NFP contraception when there is no act of sex to contracept?”
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Exactly.

OK—everyone is born ignorant, but it takes a real effort to be stupid—Claire/troll filter, Kathleen, Lin, et al. must be exhausted by now.
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I’m moving on to Jennifer’s next asinine blog on the oxymoron “atheist pope.” I’m sure it will pander to your faith as well.
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Catholics believe arrogance is a virtue.

Natural Family Planning is natural in that it monitors natural fertility cycles and uses abstinence during selected fertile periods to regulate and space conceptions for ideal family size.
Some couples,though, believe that God is the conception soul supplier and faithfully entrust their family size to His plan for peopling Heaven.
“As long as there is no sincere determination to let the Creator carry on His work as He chooses then humen selfishness will always find new sophistries and excuses to still the voice of conscience.” Pope Pius XII

@James - “if a married (i.e. sexually active) woman is using HC for medical reasons, this falls under the principle of double-effect. See Humanae Vitae 15. Pope Pius XII wrote about this in detail when the pill first came out.”

The principle of double effect requires a proportionately serious reason to tolerate the evil effect. Given that hormonal contraceptives are abortifacients, that alone is a pretty high bar: for example, the use of hormonal contraceptives by a sexually active woman to treat acne is not morally licit.

Also, there must not be an alternate treatment of comparable effectiveness with a lesser evil effect available.

I will have to defer to someone with expertise in this area of medicine to identify any conditions treated by hormonal contraceptives that meet the above requirements.

That was an excellent article with some great insights.  Please feel free to refer women to our website where they will find a list of Billings Ovulation Method teachers in the U.S.  www.boma-usa.org In addition, we have a brochure called “Making sense of the Pill” which is a Q & A with an ob/gyn who uses the Billings Method in her medical practice.  It answers the many misconceptions regarding the Pill.  We sell them in packs of 100 for $20 + $5.60 postage (that flat rate amount covers up to 2 packs). They are available in English, Spanish and Portuguese.  If you send me a self-addressed, stamped business-size envelope, I will be happy to mail a sample to you.  Our address is:  BOMA-USA, PO Box 2135, St. Cloud, MN.

I hit send submit too quickly! Our zip code is 56302

@Barry and all who have struggled with NFP, your experience sounds so similar to ours, and in fact I think my husband would say the same things as you did. My husband feels that either he is waiting for long periods (usually around three weeks in a single block of days, give or take) or I am not interested on infertile days.  We have had eight children in our twenty years of marriage, and I am tired of all the talk about how wonderful and clearcut NFP is.

Is there a misconception out there that if you are an intelligent, educated, faithful catholic, you must be charting your cycles?
I’d say my husband and I were the happiest and most loving when we threw charting out the window. I mean there is no obligation to chart if you’d welcome children any way. We have seven children and God is good and life is good!

Ana,
If nothing else it’s just a good way to keep an eye on your health.The data you get back can give insight on your overall wellness, not just reproductive health.
NFP’s a resource, not a requirement.

Kathleen—no one said it was a requirment. I said it is the Catholic method of birth control/contraception.
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Others here agree, you don’t want to admit it.

Kathleen, use, it is indeed an excellent resource.
I actually charted for years and NFP helped us immensely. My husband didn’t grow up Catholic and for him NFP opened the doors to learning so many wonderful Catholic teachings.

Ana,
Thanks.
One of my children teaches NFP & has all sorts of students, many not Catholic but just wishing to avoid the side effects of hormonal contraceptives.Sometimes they end up intrigued by the Catholic Faith,too.

NFP and Catholicism are mutually exclusive. One doesn’t have to be Catholic to use NFP; and NFP users are not necessarily Catholic. Therefore, I don’t see the connection how learning NFP is connected to Catholicsm, UNLESS it NFP is being promoted/marketed as “green” BC or Catholic BC or both.

The issue being discussed is not the pros and cons of NFP but rather how ignorant Catholics are about BC. Can’t wait for the piece on transubstantiation and the Eucharist.

I believe each woman has the right to her own decision.  If she wants to take birth control, she should be able to.  If the Catholic Church is saying it is a “sin”, that is ridiculous.  Let me ask this.  If she doesn’t take birth control because the church “forbids” it, is the Catholic Church going to give her the money to raise those children that perhaps they don’t have the money to raise properly or don’t even want?  I don’t think anyone should have the right to tell a woman what to do, least of all the Church. This is a religion with people in it that don’t even have sex at all counseling persons who do about what is right or wrong.  Hello?  Other faiths allow their ministers, reverends, etc. to marry.  My grandfather was a minister, married with children and he loved God very much.  The Catholic religion needs to change.

Nikki, the Church certainly agrees that women have the right to make their own decisions. Actually our free will is God given so the Church could never take it away. The role of the Church is the teach the truths about God and guide us to heaven, but our response is free and individual. Following the Church’s teachings on sexuality, my husband and I agree,  makes a ton of sense in the natural level, in the environmental level, and it’s an amazing asset for the health of the marriage.

Nikki,
The Church can’t tell us what we can do, it only tells us what we should do.

Yes Nikki,

Jesus told Peter that whatever he bound on Earth is bound in Heaven. Otherwise, the Church has been given the right to make rules about what is right and wrong based on tradition handed down from the Apostles and the Bible.

If they say Contraception is a sin, it is a sin. If you do some research, you will find that Church teaching hasn’t changed in 2000 years. God does not change. He knows what is good for us and what he wants. If he tells the Church he doesn’t want people using contraceptives, as our creator, he has the right to do that.

That is one of the falicies of many modern Catholics, we all seem to think we can make up our own rules and God will be fine with them as long as we are ‘good’ people (good by human standards). That is exactly what many people and nations did throughout history and the Bible records the wrath of God on them. Today we don’t see the same kind of direct punishment for our sins, though we usually pay for it in misery and unhappiness when we don’t walk with God.

As with anything in life, nature and God demand payment for our way of life. But we only seem to learn this after years of experience.

@Nikki, Jesus told Peter that whatever he bound on Earth is bound in Heaven. Otherwise, the Church has been given the right to make rules about what is right and wrong based on tradition handed down from the Apostles and the Bible.

If they say Contraception is a sin, it is a sin. If you do some research, you will find that Church teaching hasn’t changed in 2000 years. God does not change. He knows what is good for us and what he wants. If he tells the Church he doesn’t want people using contraceptives, as our creator, he has the right to do that.

That is one of the falicies of many modern Catholics, we all seem to think we can make up our own rules and God will be fine with them as long as we are ‘good’ people (good by human standards). That is exactly what many people and nations did throughout history and the Bible records the wrath of God on them. Today we don’t see the same kind of direct punishment for our sins, though we usually pay for it in misery and unhappiness when we don’t walk with God.

As with anything in life, nature and God demand payment for our way of life. But we only seem to learn this after years of experience.

Yeah, the problem is that NFP is really hard. I’ve had two scares in the last months- no fun. My husband and I would certainly love any child that comes to us, but honestly I am in NO RUSH to have a 2nd baby. None. At all. I’m staying home with our first baby. I’m looking to get back to work and resume my career. I don’t need to work, I want to work. Didn’t go to college and grad school to stay hm raising a bunch of kids. Yeah, I know what i sound like, but it’s the truth. We are trying to be faithful to the teachings of the Church, but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t constantly think about and rationalize contraception.

Kara, I too have a masters’ degree. I loved my field of study, and writing my thesis. I only realized how immersed we all are in the contraceptive-mentality-culture when I too thought of the possibility of being pregnant as “scary”. I mean, we were married, and loved each other—what was so scary to us about the natural-consequence of the marital act? My husband and I looked carefully at so many issues—just like vaccination, or circumcision, when you become a parent there are so many issued to look at and decide on. We read Humanae Vitae and had to decide on what were the “grave reasons” to delay a pregnancy. There were a couple of times in our married life that we were overwhelmed by things and spaced our children. But they grow so fast. If I knew then what I know now we wouldn’t have done it. Living the Church’s teaching on this has been liberating and life-forming to us in a myriad of ways. Being home with babies isn’t easy. I joined playgroups etc and made lifetime friends. I used the education I received in so many ways everyday at home. We have wonderful children who see us reading, discussing issues, literature, culture. Our children are very accomplished and providing a great education for them may be something I wasn’t paid in money to do—but oh I was paid in rewards more precious than $. I have a blog and would engage any new mom in such a conversation.
http://anabragahenebrysjournal.blogspot.com/

I don’t know any atheists either, but nor do I know anyone who does not use contracepction, catholic or not.

Vitto—and your point is?

Sandy, So sorry if you misunderstood. I certainly, most vehemently, do not think parenthood is the only path to a good life. Following God is. Parenthood does not come for all. For many, marriage is not the right choice. For many, marriage brings the sorrow of infertility. For many, there are very serious reasons to avoid pregnancies. I told of my life because with personal anecdotes sometimes we can paint a better picture of what we are trying to say. My wish is only to help and love.
Vitto, we do exist, be assured. I do know lots of families who don’t use contraception.

Ana,
It is obvious that God will bless you and your efforts in educating Catholics about the happiness and rewards one can get from doing things Gods way. There are many things in life that are difficult but God made us to handle them. If we listen to the world and its advice, we become selfish. We can see the results of a ‘I’ll do it my way’ mentality in the US. We in the US have the highest use of anti-depressants in the world. We also have the highest crime rate, highest drug abuse, and on and on. Why is it that the Catholic Church had to make fasting rules less stringent than other countries. Because we are so pampered that they thought we couldn’t handle what the rest of the world does in fasting and abstinence.

We need to remember, that in the life has given us, everything isn’t all about me and what we think makes me happy, it is all about God and what he knows will make us happy.

God Bless all of you women out there who have taken the brave and sometimes difficult stand of supporting Gods teachings about contraceptives.

The way I see it is that there are 2 Catholic Churches - both nationally and globally.

The first Catholic Church is governed by whatever rules it wishes to create. It believes that you can “still be Catholic” and disagree with the Church’s teachings on just about anything, but specifically contraception, homosexuality, abortion, and all-male priesthood. And to proudly profess allegiance to “God” as opposed to allegiance to the “man-made” institution and the “old men in robes in Rome” is their calling-card. And unlike other claims that the largest Protestant denomination is either the non-denominational Mega churches that have increased in popularity (and that are primarily populated by ex-Catholics), or some of other historical denominational brands (i.e. Baptist, Lutheran, etc…), THIS Catholic Church IS THE LARGEST PROTESTANT DENOMINATION.

The second Catholic Church is the one where its members are faithful to the doctrines of the Catholic Church put out by Rome - in all aspects of life, both private and public. The faithful here are not angry with the Church and do not wish to change the teachings of the Church and do not wish to impose its teachings on anyone. They simply have a vested interest in leading people to Christ and His COMPLETE Truth through proposing these teachings are the true path to Jesus.

There is an invisible veneer that divides the 2 churches because the faithful of BOTH Catholic Churches worship at the same parishes. You see the evidence of this by the bumper stickers on the automobiles in the parkinglots during election season. And you might see evidence of this in the public square when politicians or other celebreties or public figures make the bold claim to identify or reference their “Catholic faith” as the cornerstone to their decision making. Unless you are very clear as to which of the 2 they belong to, you may not be able to tell the difference, unless you dig deeper. So, simply “claiming” you are Catholic these days is not enough to identify which of the 2 you belong to.

So, in the future, when someone says they are “Catholic” ask them: “Which Catholic Church?”

So, ANA—who is God to say we can’t use contraception? If he looses another “soul” simply because of that, it’s his loss, and his problem.

JAMES,
Please find a way to contact me via my blog, Such A Pretty Bubble. I see you in virtually every internet discussion on NFP, and I would like to share my story with you and get your input. Thanks.

Sandy, you are asking me who God is? Or if He has authority over me?
Perhaps if you are having this type of question you should be dealing with some basics first. What I believe about contraception, and happiness, and our life in the Church, and life, is all based in my profound belief in God, the Loving Father, the Creator. I gather this must be a rhetorical question, but even so, perhaps you should be discussing these things with a priest. If you want to continue talking about these things, and you think I cna help you, I have a blog and you can find my contact info there. http://anabragahenebrysjournal.blogspot.com/

No, Ana—I’m asking if you think you have the right to tell others what to believe.

Our moral understanding evolves, and grows, and this can be seen in the teachings of the Church herself:  she once condemned the lending of money at interest, and now allows it.  She once eagerly advocated capital punishment, and now condemns it—though a few theologians and at least one Cardinal have argued it can be allowed under exceptional circumstances.  There is a quite powerful teaching that forms part of the Church’s tradition and its doctrine—sensus fidelium—the common, broad understanding of the faithful, i. e. of the ordinary pew-sitting Catholics.  If a teaching finds a powerful echo in the hearts of the faithful, it is a right teaching.  Example:  the Church’s condemnation of abortion, which has found a broad and deep echo in the sensus filelium, in the consciences of the faithful member of the Church.  The teaching on artificial contraception has not found this echo in the hearts of the faithful.  Proof?  The hugh, enormous numbers of pew-sitting Catholics who come to Mass each Sunday with two children in tow.

@Thomas Gallagher,
All one has to remember is that our Catholic faith is partially built on the fact that Jesus told his disciples that what they bind on earth is bound in heaven and what is loosed on Earth is loosed. Otherwise, we are required to follow the CURRENT teachings of the church, not imagined future changes that we want. We don’t get to pick and choose.

I believe that Vatican II was considering okaying contraception.

Hi again, Sandy. No, I don’t have the right to tell others what they should believe. You, I, and anyone else, should believe, and act, freely. I can tell people what I believe, and what I think would make them happy by what I know theologically, and I should do this because of Love. Christian Love is essentially one that wants to be spread. In my life as a mother of multiple children you wouldn’t be able to count the myriad of times older women stopped me, with longing, sorrowful eyes: “I wish I had more”..., “Oh if only had had more children”... These constant, frequent comments (I’m an outgoing person and am always chatting with people in grocery stores, libraries, parks…) show me how much contraception has brought into society. On the other hand we have a huge circle of friends who have large families and the sorrows of not-affording-the-latest-stuff and the daily large-family difficulties doesn’t seem to bring a woman down to the state of inner sorrow. On the contrary, I’d day we are a fun, happy group who are always sharing funny stories, helping each other, and others too, and getting together for some very fun times. Yes, we are busy, and we don’t have either much time, or much money, but oh well… it is well known that neither free time or money bring happiness.
Anything we have in life that is good is through God, and is the action of Grace. Even any small good action we are capable of accomplishing to help anyone or ourselves, that is all God’s grace acting through us. This has helped me immensely in knowing that all in life that makes me happy is none of my own doing but just letting Him work through me. Thank God for the Church to help guide us along the road!
By the way here is an interesting article on this whole subject, http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

Anne: They DID okay contraception—they just call it NFP.

One of the scary things I see these days is the enormous amount of US-Gov’t foreign aid dollars being spent on promoting artificial contraception outside our country.  A huge embarassment for Catholics like myself engaged in medical work oversesa.

Even non-Catholics know that Catholics are not supposed to practice birth control.  That’s why so many of them are upset with us.  If the average cradle Catholic doesn’t realize that they’re not supposed to be using birth control, the average cradle Catholic must be as stupid as a brick.  This column just amazes me.

Sandy, I had written a response to you but I may have not pressed “submit” correctly. To answer you: no, I don’t have the right to tell people what to believe, no. Believing, and acting upon what we believe, must be completely free. You and I and everyone has this freedom, God-given. What I can do is to tell others of what I believe and how it brings me and my loved ones happiness. It is all God’s grace, and this sort of thing is fruitful: we want others to enjoy the same joy! Now the Church not only has authority, but it is Her mission to tell us what is right. But our membership in the Church is also completely free.
If I may elaborate on the contraception issue—for those interested in reading. I don’t mean to offend anyone. Raising seven kids, some pretty close together, has not been easy, as anyone can imagine. To this day, as my youngest is 12, it isn’t easy. We don’t have and have never had disposable income. We have never taken the kids to Disney or any resort for that matter. Our best vacations? Camping trips to beautiful state parks with other like-minded large families. Did I feel at times like dressing up, dropping off my kids somewhere and having an interesting, intellectually-challenging work day? You bet. Did I ever wish I were driving a neat SUV instead of the big old van? Certainly. Or that we could take the kids to restaurants more often? Yes. Would I do differently if I had the chance? Heavens, No! The sorrows of raising a bunch of kids on one-income, I believe, are so minor compared to what I have seen, personally, as the sorrows in the hearts of contracepting women: I couldn’t count how many times I have been stopped in public places by women who had their eyes moist as they watched us. “I wish today I had had more children”.... is the common statement. It breaks the heart. I know this is just empirical, and probably because my kids were well-behaved and I’m smiley and outgoing, and perhaps these were the only women in America who go around carrying a sorrowful heart—but I doubt it. I think artificial contraception comes in opposition to what is in the depths of the heart of most women, a God-given, natural inclination to motherhood, nurturing, family love. I have a masters degree but have been always at home. I have done a variety of small, creative things to earn a little $ and to fulfill my own desire to improve my mind. Writing has been one of them, but there are many ways women can do a little bit of satisfying work without relinquishing the care of their children to another person, I think. In any event, it has been a good, wonderful, fulfilling life—full of small sorrows, yes, but all under a big-picture of doing something Beautiful and ultimately rewarding! Yesterday on my blog I posted an article I just wrote reflecting some of our family life, if anyone would like to read on. To find my blog just google my name Ana Braga-Henebry.

@midwestlady,
Sad to say, many Catholics have taken on a Protestant type attitude. This is partially because of priests and bishops who have promoted the idea that many of these things are optional or up to your personal conscience, kind of like most protestant denominations do.

Remember that the original sin of Adam and Eve that has stained all of us and made it necessary for Christ to die for us was what the serpent told them: ‘You will be like God, knowing good and evil’. Otherwise, they would be able to decide for themselves what was right and what was wrong. This is the same thing many Catholics now believe. They seem to think they have the right to ‘know what is good and evil’ whether it agrees with God or not.

Two of my sisters and myself all left the Church because what our local priests in the 70s were teaching us wasn’t what we learned from the priests and nuns in the early 60s. (Originally we were taught that God is unchangeable, he is perfect. Yet later, we were to believe that over night he changed his mind on so many teachings of the Church and we could pick and choose which we wanted to follow.) Our consciences just couldn’t take the wishy washy theology.

In recent years, we all have discovered that the Churches teachings never did change. We were just being taught bad theology by our local priests. With the Church now propagating the true teachings of the God, two of us have come back. My last sister seems to be interested but she still sees too much hypocrisy of so many ‘Catholics’ that don’t follow the faith due to those same wishy washy priests and bishops. As the church and here clergy take an ever stronger stand for the truth, many more Catholics will return, Catholics will follow the faith more closely, and the young Catholics will be taught the truth.

Blame it on the Protestants, atta boy.  And then, oh yeah, it was some bad priests and sisters long ago and far away.  It wasn’t you, nooooo.  It couldn’t have been you.

Look.  Most adults in the US can read.  Now we have the internet, but even 40 years ago there was this wonderful invention called a LIBRARY, available in most towns.  And you know what?  All this information was right there in print all the time.  All you had to do was go read it.  AMAZING, NO? 

Apparently you expected to be spoon-fed.  Oops.

Posted by Alice on Saturday, Feb 23, 2013 4:38 PM (EST):

Anne: They DID okay contraception—they just call it NFP.”
**********************************************
Alice,
Another commenter pointed out earlier-perhaps in another article- that if there is no sexual act, there is nothing to contracept.Celibacy for single folk isn’t contraception either.Contraception assumes there has first been a sexual union.
Catholic couples aren’t commanded to have sexual relations every day & we can certainly choose when to abstain or not.

Kathleen—read the other comments on this post. Most people refer to NFP as a form of contraception. They don’t have sex every day—they have sex only when the woman has been tested and it is believe that she is not fertile at the time. There is a sexual union with the intention of preventing the union of sperm and ovum. Sometimes the timing is off, fertilization occurs but the egg cannot implant into the uterus and get aborted. Same thing with the “morning-after” pill and other chemical contraception.

Ana—As usual on this site, your premise that all couples later regret not having children/more children is one-sided. You have only your own experience—you have seven kids and wouldn’t change a thing! The Catholic Church guided and supports you decision. If fact, your faith probably prevented you from really making a decision—you just followed what your religion told you you should do.
.
There are people who don’t regret not having kids—and there are people who regret that they did have too many kids:

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2010/08/09/what-parents-regret-most-about-having-children/

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art28643.asp

The Catholic life is not for everyone.

Alice,
Anyone who understands NFP as a form of contraception or an abortifacient method needs some guidance & study in the subject. NFP is a resource to understand a woman’s fertility & cycles & is often used to plan pregnancies.If you sincerely wish to gain better understanding about NFP please check out some of the websites easily available online.
If your comments are not made in sincerity, well God bless anyway.Perhaps you can take away a little knowledge from other posts here. I hope you have a great rest of the day.

Kathleen: I Googled “Natural Family Planning>” Some results are:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070221065200.htm

http://www.natural-family-planning.info/standard-days-method.htm

http://catholicism.about.com/od/catholicliving/p/Nat_Fam_Plan.htm

There’s more, but you should get the idea. They all identify NFP as contraception. As there are cycle variations, the odds are reasonable that some unions result in fertilization during a time it is thought the woman couldn’t conceive at the time. Some of those menstrual periods include fertilized ova that didn’t implant. Catholics are reluctant to check that out.

I’m willing to look at any site you can find that does not consider NFP as a tool for BOTH contraception and promoting conception.

Alice,
Contraception presupposes a sexual union.I think you’re confusing that term with the practise of periodic abstinence.
Noone’s reluctant to check out issues with implantation or the lack thereof.It can be affected by hormone levels or other factors.I think you’ll find that folks practising NFP have recourse to all kinds of reproductive/anatomical info.It’s not just for Catholics.

PS,
A good site to read about NFP is at the US Bishop’s conference(USCCB).They have an intelligent page on NFP & a summary of how it’s different from contraception.

OK, Kathleen—I Googled USCCB.org and got their article on NFP:

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/what-is-nfp/

Natural Family Planning (NFP) is an umbrella term for certain methods used to achieve and avoid pregnancies….

*****
Effectiveness of Natural Family Planning in Avoiding Pregnancy.
(Number of pregnancies among 100 couples in one year.)
Couples who carefully follow all the rules for avoiding pregnancy all the time—1-3
********
Couples who do not follow all the rules for avoiding pregnancy—2-15

How is this different from contraception, except it isn’t chemical or barrier? The site even gives statistics on how effective NFP is for “AVOIDING PREGNANCY!”

Birth control is a choice made by both the wife and the husband—whatever method. The Church just likes this method.

Alice,
If you read further they have a very detailed explanation of the differences.if you wish, I can copy & paste, but it should be easy to find.
If you don’t agree with the Catholic explanation on a faith & values level, that’s OK,it’s a free country, but the bishops are making the effort to present it to you.

Thank you for accepting that I might disagree with the Catholic explanation, but as far as I’m concerned, any method used to enjoy sex with the expressed intent of avoiding pregnancy is contraception. Things can go wrong, or be miscalculated and/or mis-interpreted, but there is always a chance that a sexual union may lead to fertilization. If the timing of the union makes it too late for the unborn child to implant into the womb, it will be aborted. All contraception methods are subject to error.

Avoiding pregnancy is not why God created us male and female.

Dear Alice,
You are surely entitled to your own opinions.
Just wondering, in your readings about NFP, does the data you see online lead you to believe it’s a modern,scientific method or did it leave you thinking more of the old “rhythm method” idea? Do you have any ideas how it could be presented better?
Thanks!

Wow, I have missed a lot in the past couple of weeks.  Biology 101:  implantation occurs 6-12 days after ovulation.  It is impossible for fertilization to occur after that window of time.  Fertilization occurs within a couple of days of ovulation.

“your faith probably prevented you from really making a decision—you just followed what your religion told you you should do.”

My sentiments exactly. The Church has always wanted Catholics to have as many children as they can for its own continued existence and growth. So it isn’t too painfully obvious it throws Catholics a bone by allowing NFP. Wow. How generous. There is no real freedom for couples to decide for themselves how to manage the size of their family.

There’s ample freedom Bill.  NFP is not a bone.  It is a very effective way of managing family size.  But thank you for commenting, because I once again forgot to unsubscribe after my last comment, and now’s my chance.

Bill S,

Are you here just to destroy the faith of faithful Catholics? Is that your mission? Obviously you are not a Catholic, so why do you take the time to be here telling people that the Catholic Church just makes up whatever they want to teach? The next question is why do you take your valuable time to make such a concerted effort to destroy our faith. Today the devils number one tool against Catholics is to destroy their faith so they can join the rest of society in pursuing selfishness and materialism.

It is VERY plain in the Bible that God does not want us using contraceptives. There are many scriptures where God condemns those men who ‘waste their semen on the ground’, etc. As always the Church just reflects Gods wishes for us. If you don’t like Gods desires for us, take it up with him, not us or the Church.

“Are you here just to destroy the faith of faithful Catholics?”
Just stating a point of view. If it changes your perspective, that could be a good thing.

“Obviously you are not a Catholic, so why do you take the time to be here telling people that the Catholic Church just makes up whatever they want to teach?”

I said the Church is against contraception because more children means more Catholics. Do you know a better reason?  Is it that sex is bad except it is acceptable for procreation.

“The next question is why do you take your valuable time to make such a concerted effort to destroy our faith.”

I said nothing to destroy anyone’s faith.

“Today the devils number one tool against Catholics is to destroy their faith so they can join the rest of society in pursuing selfishness and materialism.”

I wouldn’t know. I don’t believe in any devil.

It is VERY plain in the Bible that God does nrot want us using contraceptives. There are many scriptures where God condemns those men who ‘waste their semen on the ground’, etc.

That was a single act of disobedience in not impregnating a woman who had lost her husband and had no children.  It is not an indication that God is against birth control.  If it were, would other Christians use it?

As always the Church just reflects Gods wishes for us. If you don’t like Gods desires for us, take it up with him, not us or the Church.

It is the Church that is banning contraception. Not God.

BillS,
We are both getting off topic here, so this will be my last post on this matter. We want people to talk about NFP on its own merits.

You just verified every point I made.
1. You don’t believe in the devil, yet Jesus made it clear he was a real entity. So not only do you not believe in the Church but you don’t believe in the teachings of Christ.

2. You obviously try to prove that one should not believe in Christs teachings and those of the Church. As you put it, “Just stating a point of view. If it changes your perspective, that could be a good thing.” Thus we too would have to not believe Jesus teachings and those of the Church to ‘change our perspective’. As I said, your goal is to destroy our faith.

3. It is well known that until just after 1900, almost every Christian religion believed Contraception was wrong. Why, because it is revealed in scripture. Just as most of the Protestant religions have come to accept divorce, contraception, fornication, the devil, and now even same sex marriage, we see them moving with a society that just goes after selfish goals of sensual pleasure and materialism.

This just shows that the Catholic Church stands alone as unchangeable because the God they represent is unchangeable. Despite satan’s attacks against the Church from inside and outside, it keeps growing and prospering because it is blessed by God.

Kathleen—I know NFP is more than the “old rhythm method” of contraception—it’s been refined by scientific knowledge of biology. The means, as reported on the sites, that NFP is more effective as a birth control. It is a scientific advance because it is based on empirical observation of the changes in a woman’s body due to her cycle. Humans also change their own behavior by regulating marital relations to her infertile phase as determined by scientific tools and methods. As I understand it, this is contrary to the concept of being “open to life” and keeping it “God’s grace” as to whether and how many children a couple will have.

I’m not sure what you mean by “presenting it better.” It is factual in that NFP is very effective as both a means of preventing or promoting conception, depending on how it’s practiced. I would rather families practice family planning than otherwise because it is necessary to control the number of children for the family’s overall prosperity. If you get a spiritual kick from the practice, all the better.

Kathleen—my reply is being checked for spam (is that happening more often lately?) but I don’t think there is anything offensive about it so it should pass.

Yes, Claire—I know you thought long and hard about it and I’m sure you are right.

Grok,

It is frustrating trying to talk any sense into people like you because you always think it is the devil trying to trick or tempt you. The witch trials came about because of people’s fear of the devil.  The devil is a mythological character. He is no more real than the boogie man. For that matter, anything you consider to be supernatural is purely imaginary. We have a material universe that came into existence in some thus far unexplainable way. If you want to attribute that and the creation of life and intelligence to something you call God, go right ahead. But if you think people had a better handle on it thousands of years ago, you’re only kidding yourself. We know more about the mysteries of life now than we did at any time before. To hold old folklore up as ancient wisdom is to lack a grasp of life. This isn’t the devil talking. It is me making an appeal to reason and logic.

Anyone who believes in the devil/Satan is programmed to find evil in everyone else. They believe that any difference in ideas is an attack to their faith—that’s why they can never learn.

Alice, are you saying Jesus lied?

C.S. Lewis came up with the “Jesus Trilemma” in which he conveniently omits the possibility that Jesus is fiction, or other possibilities. So, take your pick.

All I’m saying is that belief in the devil leads to paranoia because the believer is constantly looking for signs of the devil—and will find them.

For example, if I did suggest to you that Jesus lied, you would consider me an agent of the devil because you believe Jesus could never have lied and that it is blasphemy to say that he did.

(I’m fascinated by the religious concept of “blasphemy,” which basically defines any expression that opposes Judeo-Christian thought as “evil” in itself. The Church found it a very useful tool to justify the Inquisition.)

Jesus may or may not have existed, may have said the thing he did and may have been a great moral teacher, but I do not accept that Jesus was divine.

Grok—My first reply is being checked again. I don’t think it had anything offensive, but hopefully clarifies my above statement.

Posted by Claire on Wednesday, Feb 27, 2013 7:46 AM (EST):
Wow, I have missed a lot in the past couple of weeks.  Biology 101:  implantation occurs 6-12 days after ovulation.  It is impossible for fertilization to occur after that window of time.  Fertilization occurs within a couple of days of ovulation.

From the USCCB.org website:

Effectiveness of Natural Family Planning in Avoiding Pregnancy.
(Number of pregnancies among 100 couples in one year.)
Couples who carefully follow all the rules for avoiding pregnancy all the time—1-3
********
Couples who do not follow all the rules for avoiding pregnancy—2-15

If there are 1-3 pregnancies in 100 couples who follow all the rules and 2-15 pregnancies in 100 couples who don’t follow all the rules, wouldn’t you agree there is some room for error?

Alice:  When I made that comment, I was responding to was your idea that a fertilization could occur after the timeframe when the embryo would be able to implant, resulting in a spontaneous abortion.  This would be biologically impossible. But yes, of course I agree that with NFP there is room for error in terms of unplanned pregnancies.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  I should probably be better about copying and pasting as you, Bill and Kathleen are.  Anyway, I am unchecking the comment box, but will check back tomorrow.  Too busy to get the email notifications from multiple threads.  Have a good day everyone!

“Alice, are you saying Jesus lied?”

While we are waiting for Alice’s answer to be cleared by the thought police, let me give you my answer to your question.  Everything we believe that Jesus said comes from the four gospels, unless you want to include the Gnostic gospels as well. To me, it appears that Jesus probably said other things not recorded and didn’t say all of the things that could have been made up by the evangelists. Based on the contradictions alone, there are many statements where if one is true, then the other one can’t be. Mark’s gospel was used as a reference for the others. So anything he made up was picked up by Matthew, Luke and John. So even if Jesus never lied (did he lie when he said he wasn’t going into the city, then he went by himself or did he simply change his mind?), there are many falsehoods in the accounts.  There were no witnesses to the temptation in the desert and it is doubtful that any of the headings were actually exorcisms.

So, did Jesus lie? Maybe, maybe not. Was he delusional? Perhaps. Is everything we think he said true?!  I doubt it. Will I go to hell if I am wrong? Definitely not.

Bill S,

You may or may not go to hell for your lack of faith (that’s between you and the Lord), but you certainly do suffer from a lack of faith in Scripture as the Word of God and in God Himself.

Scripture as the Word of God

Definitely wrong. Ancient writings by primitive men that are of little or no use to us today. I take that back. In that they inspire people to do good and avoid wrong (which a good modern book on psychology would do even better), they do have value. While they are written for the purpose of inspiring, they are not in and of themselves inspired by a supernatural source.

God Himself

The most important fictional character of all time. Name given to a universal monotheistic concept that replaced polytheism. Adopted and described by Jews, then Christians and Muslims. Hijacked by each monotheistic religion as the one true God with a capital G as opposed to other gods with a small g.

Heaven and Hell

The carrot and the stick to reward belief and punish unbelief. Works better than anyone could have ever expected.

Claire has left the building, but I want to clarify that I was not referring to the timing from ovulation. I was referring to miscalculation of the signs and symptoms. After all, NFP is not the “old rhythm method,” as Kathleen explained. If you’re going to define the beginning of life as the fertilization of the ovum, then there are odds that a living soul would be aborted because it could not implant into the uterus and grow. The same thing is claimed about the Pill—prescribed or “morning after”—as an abortifacient.

NFP is promoted by Catholics as “healthy” for women, but it is still a moral compromise for the need for contraception.

“If you’re going to define the beginning of life as the
fertilization of the ovum, then there are odds that a living soul would be
aborted because it could not implant into the uterus and grow. The same
thing is claimed about the Pill—prescribed or “morning after”—as an
abortifacient.”

God!  This is such a ridiculous argument. This is why people are all bent out of shape about the HHS mandate requiring coverage for the morning after pill. The idea of a soul entering a body at the moment of conception is the most ludicrous superstition I have ever heard. We have personalities that develop over time. There is no personality at the beginning of our lives. And our personality is what some people refer to as our soul. There is no spirit that enters a fertilized egg and then goes to heaven with a complete personality even though it never experienced life and never had a chance to develop a personality. That is a God-awful superstition and the Church should be ashamed for propagating and perpetuating it. I’m sorry about what this means to people who have suffered miscarriages, but it is the God’s honest truth.

On 27 November 2010, Pope Benedict XVI spoke that
“from the moment of its conception life must be guarded with the greatest care.”[14] [...] With regard to the embryo in the mother’s womb, science itself highlights its autonomy, its capacity for interaction with the mother, the coordination of biological processes, the continuity of development, the growing complexity of the organism.

That was an irresponsible thing for Benedict to say. But even there he doesn’t mention any soul entering at the moment of conception.  With all due respect to our former Pope, he also said that gay marriage poses a threat to world peace, showing that he did not always know what he was talking about.

Hey, don’t kill the messenger! I’m just confirming that Catholics believe ensoulment happens at fertilization (conception) and consequently any practice of contraception, including NFP, includes the possibility of killing an ensouled being.

My understanding is that the Church believes that sex is only good when it is open to conception. It is not good when it is manipulated to avoid conception.

Kathleen has backed down, without admitting, that NFP is used as contraception and that the only difference is “spirital values respecting the woman’s body.” Everybody knows it’s what it really is for.

I wouldn’t say anyone has ‘backed down’. The fact is that since you don’t believe in the teachings of the Church, why waste our time with you. There are serious people out there that are truly interested in serving God, why waste our time in a meaningless debate with you two.

Bill S. ........Time will prove that Pope Benedict was right. God bless him!

It is impossible for NFP to be an abortifacient.  Miscalculations of fertility symptoms can cause an unplanned pregnancy.  Miscalculations can not, however, prevent a fertilized ovum from implanting.  If a NFP miscalculation results in a fertilized ovum, and that ovum fails to implant, the failure of implantation has nothing to do with the miscalculation or the timing of conception.  There are many unpreventable reasons for miscarriages, and those reasons have nothing to do with miscalculations.  As I previously explained, it is impossible for fertilization to occur prior to the window of implantation, whether that timeframe was miscalculated or not.  Using hormonal contraception, on the other hand, can actively prevent an embryo from implanting, because the hormones can cause a hostile environment which hinders implantation.  There is nothing about NFP that causes a hostile environment or discourages implantation.  This will be my last comment on the matter, and I will no longer be checking back every day.  Grok is right, a better use of my time would be to save my comments for people who understand biology and understand Church teaching (whether or not they agree with it), rather than with people who lie about both.

“It is impossible for NFP to be an abortifacient. “

Will you people please stop using that word?

You make a fertilized egg seem so important.  Nothing happens when it doesn’t develop into an embryo. Literally nothing.  To say it has a soul is a superstition fostered by people not only against abortion but against birth control too and especially the morning after pill which can prevent a rape or a bad judgement from altering a woman’s life forever.

Bill S…..........Abortion is the taking of a life. “Rape or a bad judgement” may be life-altering as you call it, but abortion has an even greater life-altering effect on a women’s life. The women suffers both medically, emotionally, and spiritually FOREVER in this life. A child is a blessing, not a mistake. I pray GOD give you and others the grace to understand this concept sooner rather than later!

Lin,

I doubt very much that a woman who takes the morning after pill to avoid the consequences of a rape or bad decision occurring within the past day or two would be more impacted by taking the pill than by an ensuing pregnancy. It isn’t even close.

Alice,
I never saw your reply which may have been blocked as spam, but I’m not sure what your comments mean exactly. It’s not a debate or a contest here.If you sincerely are seeking knowledge about Catholic teaching regarding contraception there are plenty of sites & resources available.
If you still have questions, there are folk who can help you out.
If you understand but still don’t agree, that’s OK.At least you’ll have an honest understanding of what our Faith teaches rather than one based on misinformation.
It’s OK to disagree but at least disagree with what’s factual.I think the more we learn about other faith traditions, the more respect we gain.Prejudice is generally built on misinformation.
God bless.

“There are serious people out there that are truly interested in serving God, why waste our time in a meaningless debate with you two.”

Grok. You’re being a party pooper, a stick in the mud, a kill joy, downer, etc.  We have a genuine interest in your opinions and how you derived them. I hope that one of you can show me where I am wrong.  Heck, I want to go to heaven too if such a place really exists.

BillS,

You see, having come from an Athiestic back ground, I know that the only reason I would have been on a sight like this is to try to ‘convert’ people to my faith in NO God. I knew there was no God, so all I wanted to do is convert others away from superstitious practices. I didn’t come to God from debating people on sites like this. In fact, debating just made me more faithful in NOT believing in God. Sadly though, many young people, as I did, fall away because of these types of arguments. As you know, you are doing damage to the faith of young people.

It is well know that suicide, drug abuse, happiness, and many other social ills are many times higher for athiests than for religious people. I saw this myself for those who I drew away from God. At one point I realized that they were far better off in their ignorant religion. Now I feel even worse about what I have done.

The problem for you is, if there is a God and you have contributed to the fall of a young person, you will pay. Personally, I am now sure of him due to things I have seen and experienced. Also, I am much happier in my life.

“I knew there was no God, so all I wanted to do is convert others away from superstitious practices.”

Exactly. Whatever made you believe must be too difficult for you to describe. Otherwise, you would be able to convince me that I am wrong. Since you seem to imply that I will be punished if I am wrong, you have given me one reason for your faith that I can disregard categorically. If your other reasons are things like the positive impact that believing has on your life or certain feelings and emotions that you have experienced, then my reply would be that the simple act of believing could do all this without the things you believe having to be true.

Well, having said all that, I feel bad having to burst your bubble. Maybe you will just refuse to believer and continue on your happy way. I think the truth should be told even if it causes some temporary pain. In the long run you can’t go wrong with the truth.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell” was originated by the Catholic Church and it all revolves around contraception.

—RMW (8:39 AM)

Originated by the sinners in the flock, not the Church.

NFP… still remains the ‘Great Unspoken Teaching’ in our church and Catholic marriages are suffering because of it - ‘Just a guy’ above is proof.

You have made a very worthwhile point here, RMW.  And you added to your point’s strength by taking note of the distress felt by ‘Just a guy’ (who commented at 8:14 AM).

In Genesis we are taught that in marriage the two become one flesh.  We are not even one flesh with our parents, brothers, sisters, or our children.  Does this not mean that on this side of the veil that ones spouse and no one else is ones closest living relation - even closer than parents?  The rebuke that woman gives to her man, ‘Just a guy’, because she witholds some part of the one flesh surely stings.

Less teaching, preaching on Social Justice and more on Marital Justice which includes a marriage free from the slavery to drugs or surgery.

Oh yes!

The religious education of young teens should include instruction in the vocations of the faithful, including the vocation of married life.  No Catholic of the Western Rite should be considered prepared for the sacrament of confirmation unless schooled in the Church’s most basic teachings that condition the vocations, including what is genuine love and what does chastity require.  As part of discussion of chastity and its relation to the vocation of marriage, enough theology and scientific information about NFP should be taught so even youths can explain that NFP is not contraception and not the rhythm method.

Bill S….....Perhaps the negative impact of aborting a baby would not be immediate, but there are long term health risks and eternal spiritual losses that can NEVER be made up.  For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.  For those who do believe, no explanation is necessary. May GOD give you and others the grace to understand!

There’s research on the rates of ectopic pregnancies and blighted ovum rates in populations using NFP, but not enough to make any conclusions, so I have to let the issue go until there is more evidence.

Still, condoms, diaphragms, and other barrier methods of contraception also prevent fertilization—why does the Church condemn those methods? Don’t tell me the Church is concerned about health, or how much pleasure there is in sex—couples have been willing to weigh the pros and cons of contraception since the beginning of civilization.

Bill S is right—NFP is a bone from the Catholic Church because it backed itself into a corner in its condemnation of contraception.

Atheists don’t have a particularly high suicide rate, but it is higher than in religious societies; it’s likely because most religions consider suicide wrong and that acts as a deterrent.
When developing data of this nature many researchers ignore the composition if the population being studies. As an example Scandinavia’s have high rate of suicide and are generally prone to be atheist. This fact is seized on as proof of atheist suicidal inclinations. Other effects such as the lack of sunlight during the brutal winter, or the problems sleeping during the continuous light of summer are never mentioned in the popular press.. Reasons given for suicide seldom rank “lack of religion” as a cause.

Grok—I accept that you have had personal experiences that led you to believe God, but why the Judeo-Christian God instead of any other? It’t not just about trying to convince atheists that there is a god, but why that particular mythology? It’s really depressing to accept that we are “fallen” because of our desire to learn. How is Christianity any better than Greek, Nordic, Hindu, Native American, or any other mythology?

No one can make you feel bad about yourself without your consent. Why should I let you tell me my disbelief is wrong?

“Bill S….....Perhaps the negative impact of aborting a baby would not be immediate, but there are long term health risks and eternal spiritual losses that can NEVER be made up.  For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.  For those who do believe, no explanation is necessary. May GOD give you and others the grace to understand!”

I do understand what you are saying, Lin, and I appreciate the good will that you convey. Yes, there is quite a difference in the opinions on this subject, believers mostly arguing one way and most unbelievers arguing the opposite way. You mention long term health risks and eternal spiritual losses. If it were true that there are long term health risks, then these must be addressed by the medical profession.  I can’t speak to the spiritual losses, but I think that, from an emotional standpoint many women carry a lot of unfounded guilt due to the condemnation of abortion by the Church and other pro-lifers. This condemnation is more destructive than the act itself in that it can affect the woman who has had an abortion and the only choice offered to her is to repent and cow tail to the Church.

Bill S….........It is not the condemnation of the Church that these women feel, it is the pain of conscience.  One cannot kill a baby in the womb without tremendous guilt and sorrow unless one is psychotic or otherwise addicted. The medical profession does treat the side affects of abortion, many times with antidepressants.  But for the most part it is silenced as to the increased risk of cancer and infertility due to abortion.

The Church will never support contraception because as we have seen it has lead to the breakdown of the family which is the cornerstone of a great society. Contraception divorces love from the sexual act. There is no complete giving of self.  And look what happens when sex is divorced from love, rape, pornography, abortion, sodomy, etc.  People who live their lives in this manner are not filled with joy. They may kid themselves into believing that their lives are wonderful as they go from one mind numbing fix to the next, but they are not. Unfortunately, our country will cease to be great, because we cease to be good.

May GOD rescue everyone as required to know they true joy of conversion and salvation!

” Contraception divorces love from the sexual act.”

This may be true in some cases but not all. I’ve used condoms my whole life. Yes. Your statement applied in a handful of occasions. But the rest of the time, it was in true lovemaking.

“Unfortunately, our country will cease to be great, because we cease to be good.”

That is not the reason. As bill Clinton once said: “it’s the economy, stupid”.  We could be good as gold and still suffer from economic failure.

So, Bill, you felt that sometimes when you used contraception it was true love…  (What was it you said about feelings?)  I can say from personal experience that many times I felt I was doing the right thing, that I was in love… Oh my!  How foolish we can be.  But I’m sure your wisdom is greater than the Church’s, than Christ Himself….  You don’t need to listen to anyone in authority - you are your own authority.  You know what’s best at all times, I’m sure.  (Famous last words before going over a cliff.)

The funny thing about pride is that you just can’t see it as it blinds your eyes.
(And so a softening of the heart is required.)

But the Lord is kind and merciful - I pray you won’t run from His arms forever.

“So, Bill, you felt that sometimes when you used contraception it was true love…”

Not just sometimes. Almost 100% of the time. Yes.

“I can say from personal experience that many times I felt I was doing the right thing, that I was in love.”

Are you trying to say that I don’t love my wife if I am not trying to impregnate her every time we make love?

“But I’m sure your wisdom is greater than the Church’s, than Christ Himself…. “

Much.

“But the Lord is kind and merciful - I pray you won’t run from His arms forever.”

Thank you. But I’m good.

If you’re not open to life, you’re not open to love (however you may feel).

Your pride is remarkable, and a little frightening…

Can I ask everyone who reads this to pray today for Bill?

“If you’re not open to life, you’re not open to love (however you may feel).”
I am open to this life and I love my wife and kids. Knowing that this is the only life I will ever live just makes me live it more fully.

“Your pride is remarkable, and a little frightening…”

I’m not proud. I just know that I am the most qualified person to decide what’s best for me.

Can I ask everyone who reads this to pray today for Bill?

That’s OK. I’m good.

GOD is love. Sin is the absence of love. Our country will cease to be great due to the absence of love.  That is why our economy is failing.  If the people of this once great country would turn to GOD in prayer, our economic woes would end.  Our government is corrupt and I will be very surprised if GOD permits this to continue for many more years. Or perhaps our bad choices will be our punishment.  Bad leadership is punishment for sin. Bill S….....My prayers are with you and your family!

@ James Kurt…...“If you’re not open to life, you’re not open to love (however you may feel)”.  VERY true!  Love is a choice, not a feeling.  And we all need to remember, that pride goes before the fall.

“Open to Life,” “Culture of Life,” “Culture of Death,” etc.—what loaded terms!

I “love” life, I “love” my children, I “love” Chinese food!

I agree our government is corrupt—there is too much Christian influence which tends to restrict freedom and democracy.

“The Church will never support contraception because as we have seen it has lead to the breakdown of the family which is the cornerstone of a great society. Contraception divorces love from the sexual act. There is no complete giving of self.  And look what happens when sex is divorced from love, rape, pornography, abortion, sodomy, etc.  People who live their lives in this manner are not filled with joy. They may kid themselves into believing that their lives are wonderful as they go from one mind numbing fix to the next, but they are not. Unfortunately, our country will cease to be great, because we cease to be good.”
*****
*****
Lin, Natural Family Planning is a method of contraception. Timing sex to avoid the possibility of conception is divorcing sex from “love” as you mean it.
*****
****
You may kid yourself into thinking you know better, but you do not. Unfortunately, you will never be right, because you cease to learn.

@Rose…..One cannot know the TRUTH by attacking others.  Timing sex is an act of love.  God bless you!

Lin—so you have no problem with the intent of contraception?

“And look what happens when sex is divorced from love, rape, pornography, abortion, sodomy, etc.”
******
Rapists, pornographers, and sodomizers are not involved in contraception. NFP is a method of contraception promoted by Catholics because they contend that it doesn’t divorce sex from love. (Maybe, but it does divorce sex from conception.) If both partners agree to it, how is contraceptive sex not part of a loving relationship?

Lin—I’m guessing you are just frightened of sex and probably do not like it. Do you have a spouse and children, or are you just justifying your virginity?

“Or perhaps our bad choices will be our punishment.”
******
Punishment for what?!?

Rose….....Timing sex out of love for your spouse is not an act of contraception. As stated previously, contraception has done nothing but lead to the decline in morals in society. And the predicted population bomb has become the population bust. Soon we will all be kneeling on a prayer rug when Muslims out number Christians and atheists. Yes even atheists will have to convert!

Bill, very glad to hear you love your wife and kids - that means a lot.  God Bless.

“If the people of this once great country would turn to GOD in prayer, our economic woes would end.  Our government is corrupt and I will be very surprised if GOD permits this to continue for many more years.”

Lin, I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with you about the solution to our economic woes. George W, Bush and a bad economy caused a deficit that keeps growing. The bad economy is largely due to foreign competition and cheap labor abroad. Our government is no more corrupt now than it has been during better economic times. Our problems have very little to do with God or morality or a lack of prayer.

I appreciate your good will, but I have to respectfully disagree with you. Having said that, I do agree that this country is in trouble and I don’t see any way out of it at the present time.

Bill S…......The mainstream media has been very clever in repeating the blame Bush mantra.  However, the bad economy did not begin until the Democrats took over Congress in his second term. We have no leadership now and the people in power want to take this great country down. Unfortunately, they have succeeded. We agree that our government has always been corrupt, but it has never been worse than now. For the first time in my life, I am ashamed of this country. Thank GOD for my Catholic faith to guide me through this life. Thank you for your good will!

“We have no leadership now and the people in power want to take this great country down. Unfortunately, they have succeeded.”

Lin, this country is in debt up to its eyeballs. No one will disagree. It can’t get some of the wealthiest people in the world to pay a bigger share of it due to resistance from a Republican Congress. That is what will take this country down. Cutting spending will be painful, but that is our only option since no one is willing to raise taxes, which is the only other option.

None of this has anything to do with this country having to be any more religious than it already is. If anything, abortions and birth control are avoiding having more people on welfare. Euthanasia would reduce Medicare costs. Gay marriage adds nothing to our economic problems.  They may be deemed unacceptable for other reasons but they are not hurting our economy.  That’s where we are in a free fall.

We are in a free fall because the majority of this once great country believe as you do. If killing is the answer (babies in the womb and the elderly and/ or handicapped), why do we weep for the children murdered in Newtown, CT?  I do not understand your logic at all. We are in debt because there are more people on the dole than not. Everyone wants something for nothing and there is no personal accountability. Satan has done well in indoctrinating the masses!  Hitler’s thinking is alive and well in this world.  He, too, believed in killing the innocent. You are a troll and not sincere. Good bye and good luck with that!

Lin, all I was trying to say is there is no correlation between this country’s economic problems and its immorality (in your judgement). Whether the issues I mentioned are right or wrong and whether I condone them or not, they belong in a discussion on morality but not on economics.  That’s all I was trying to say.

The problem is that there are too many people on the dole. An evil government would not have that problem because it would do what the Nazis did. Do I desire an evil government that is running in the black as opposed to a compassionate government in the red?  Of course not. All I mean is that this administration is not in trouble for being immoral so much as being to kind if not enabling.

Now you have your opinions and I have mine and I enjoyed discussing them with you. I’m sorry that I offended you.

Bill S…....You have not offended me. But it is ALL about morality!

Lin—so you’ve re-defined “contraception” from its scientific meaning (“against-conception”) to some moral precept? You think it’s immoral to use condoms or other methods beside NFP? What if NFP is not good for the marriage/relationship?
******
http://womenintheology.org/2011/03/29/women-speak-about-natural-family-planning/
******
http://womenintheology.org/?s=NFP
******
When it doesn’t work, or the partner is unwilling, it is the woman who suffers the consequences, whether she is married or not.

Barrier methods, such as condoms, diaphragms, and cervical caps also prevent conception, and therefore “abortion” of a blastocyst is not possible. How are they immoral if NFP is not?

“Yes even atheists will have to convert!”
*******
Like Muslims and Jews had to convert to Catholicism during the Inquisition? (A person wouldn’t even dare not to believe in a god in that time.) What are you so paranoid about?

@>—>—

Rose—Lin is obviously an hysteric.

Lin,
You are right. It is all about morality. I don’t want to go around thinking that I am being immoral any more than you do. But if I am going to get down on myself for being immoral its going to have to be something that does to others what I would not want others to do to me or be harmful to the world in general such as polluting the air by leaving my car running when I should turn it off.  If I had been aborted, I would not have been aware enough to think that someone was doing something to me that I would not do to them. If I were one of the children at Sandy Hook or one of their loved ones I would know very well what someone was doing to me. So, having been involved in an abortion myself, that’s the way I look at it. Having used contraception, the same reasoning applies. I don’t feel bad about these things any more. My son is gay. I would rather that he marry then live his life without a mate. I allowed the hospital to administer an overdose of morphine to my near brain-dead father. Should I have to confess it to a priest or otherwise feel any worse about it than I do about losing him at such a relatively young age, 65. I’m 61 myself.  So yes. It is all about morality and the way the Church manipulates people by making them go to it and be indebted to it for its forgiveness

If Lin’s comments are indicative of Catholic culture, then it is a culture of fear, guilt, and self-loathing.
*****
No thanks. @->->-

Lin, my response has been held up or deleted. You are right. It is about morality. If you don’t see my response soon, I will have to try it again.  As you might expect, I am against Catholic morality being imposed on non-Catholics or non-practicing Catholics. My morality is much like the President’s. I know that you would consider a Harvard graduate with a wife and two daughters to be less moral than you and other devout Catholics. But that would just be your opinion.

Lin: just an FYI;  Rose and Alice are the same person.

Bill S. .....Killing babies in the womb, euthanasia, gay marriage, encouraging government dependency, lying, creating an atmosphere of class warfare, spending beyond one’s means, violating religious freedoms, etc., these are immoral. This is not specific to Catholics. And whether one is moral or not is not determined by where you went to school, your level of education, you station in life, nor you religion. Take care to pick a good role model.

Lin,
That is a very biased assessment of the President’s moral values. Given the responsibilities of the office, Obama seems to be as moral as one can be under the circumstances. He has to make many decisions that he knows won’t please everyone. He has to decide whether the need to take out terrorists with drones is worth hitherto risk of collateral damage or mistaken identity.  He has to decide when to deploy troops knowing that some of them will die. He has to decide when to withdraw troops, given the chaos that may ensue when we are no longer there to deter insurgents. He needed to work out a national health care program with free contraception coverage then deal with those who oppose it for religious reasons. It’s easy to criticize and accuse him of being immoral, but I wouldn’t want that job.

Bill S…......I never once mentioned Obama’s name. Nor did any of the issues I listed above include national security. As for the HHS mandate which will prove to be a disaster, there should be a conscience clause in it.

“encouraging government dependency, lying, creating an atmosphere of class warfare, spending beyond one’s means, violating religious freedoms, etc”

You weren’t talking about Obama?

If the shoe fits.

I don’t see how the mandate can be a disaster. It’s really hard to empathize with employers who can’t put up and shut up about the contraception coverage including abortifacients.  A day or two old fertilized egg is nothing. It’s the superstition of “ensoulment” that has Catholics and other Christians all bent out of shape. Sure it has all the DNA to grow into a human. So what?  Who is being harmed? No one even exists yet.

You used to be a fertilized egg. Who cares about the Constitution anyway?!?

“You used to be a fertilized egg.”
Yes, but had I been aborted a couple of days after fertilization I would not have missed what I never had.

“Who cares about the Constitution anyway?”

Well, if First Amendment rights are violated, someone will successfully challenge it. If they don’t then it must be OK.

Yes, Claire—whatever you think is OK by me.

Lin—the earth moves around the sun. I know this shocks you because you obviously thing everything revolves around you.

Claire—whatever you think of me, do you really think Lin’s comments are a fair representation of your Faith?

Posted by Rose on Sunday, Mar 3, 2013 7:05 PM (EST):
“Lin—the earth moves around the sun. I know this shocks you because you obviously thing everything revolves around you.”

Rose. I disagree with Lin. But your statement is way out of line.

“do you really think Lin’s comments are a
fair representation of your Faith?”

Are you serious? Arguing with Lin is like arguing with the Pope. You’re not a very sophisticated atheist.

Bill S…....Why should employers have to put up or shut up?  Do you really want government to control every facet of your life?  And with the HHS mandate, there will be little or no incentive to go into medicine.  With fewer doctors, universal health care will be meaningless As to the Constitution…......I have lost all faith in our leaders and the courts to protect its validity since many have proven not to be trustworthy.  Your manners are to be commended.  Thank you!  The Bible is on the history channel right now.

“And with the HHS mandate, there will be little or no incentive to go into medicine.”

How so?

Can’t watch the History Channel because I am watching the Boston Bruins-Montreal Canadiens game. I’ll DVR it.

Bill S—I was asking for Claire’s opinion, not yours. Lin expresses ultra conservative right-wing Tea-bagger ideas. Even the Pope is more diplomatic.

A better analogy is that arguing with Lin is like arguing gun control with Wayne LaPierre.

Isn’t anyone watching Bill Moyers?

Tuned in to the History Channel in between periods of the hockey game. The Israelites escaped on foot from Egyptian chariots by running through the parted Red Sea.  I’m sure that really happened.

There is no evidence that anything in Genesis or Exodus ever happened. They still make for a good story.

Bill S…....Most people have no idea what even partial implementation, let alone full implementation will look like. We have to pass it first, remember?  Maybe she will volunteer for euthanasia to save the taxpayers millions of dollars in pension payouts. Back to the doctor shortage…....Already, doctors must establish electronic records and filing systems.  This is a two-edged sword. It should save time but it also restricts the doctor’s ability to practice medicine as he sees fit. Fees will be established, treatments rationed, and consciences violated. Physician’s education and certification will be dumbed down. Nurse practioners will make many major decisions. Death panels will most certainly be established.  And doctors will be severely penalized if they do not follow the party line. And of course, e-records make that a snap. Sound familiar?  The automation of the death camps.  Welcome to our future!  And so many people used to look forward to retirement!

Lin,

Is what you are saying related to the HHS Mandate or something else?  It is already in affect. The proposed amendments apply only to those institutions which were given an additional year to comply which I think is this coming August. It can’t possibly have the dire consequences that you are predicting. Contraception was already covered under many plans. The mandate just extends it to the others. The amendments provide the requested relief for Catholic institutions that would have had to provide contraception coverage. Now the complaint is that it doesn’t provide the same relief for for profit employers. They just can’t use religion as an excuse or impose their beliefs on their employees

We have not yet begun to feel the full impact of this law. If we had, Obama would never have been re-elected.  Stand by while costs continue to increase at an even faster rate and care declines.  If allowed to go forward all will be under Hitler like care.  There is still a chance it will be found unconstitutional since tax bills have to originate in the House.

Aren’t you just putting down Obamacare and making up all kinds of dire predictions about it just because it includes coverage for contraception, which you are against because the Catholic Church is against it?  I don’t think you really know that much about the program. It’s just mandatory health insurance. It is up to the insurance companies to control the costs. We are one of the last advanced countries to provide universal health care.

Pat Robertson reacted to the news that Chicago public schools will teach kindergarteners “the basics about anatomy, reproduction, healthy relationships and personal safety” by claiming it is “one more of the liberal initiatives to force their point of view” on others.

He then went on to say that liberals are using public schools just like Communists in Russia and China used prison camps: “If people won’t accept it, the Russians were willing to put them in gulags; the Chinese have been willing to put them in prisons. Here in America, the liberals think they’ve got them in school and they want to indoctrinate them and force them into a mindset that is contrary to what their parents believe.”
********
Lin isn’t much different from Pat.

Billl S…....While it is true that I do not believe artificial birth control is acceptable under any circumstances, the HHS mandate failed to include a conscience clause.  HHS is not just mandatory health insurance. It gives the government complete control over our doctors and what they can prescribe and what they can charge.  E-processing gives the government perfect knowledge assuming their IT department is worth a damn. The quality of your life and mine will be determined by a bureaucrat in DC. Even whether you live or die will be determined by a bureaucrat in DC.  Health insurance companies have nothing to do with controlling costs. They only manage what is permitted to be paid for the goods or service. And yes I do know a lot about this bill and none of it is any good!  And we are not one of the last advanced countries to provide universal health care, which by the way, does not work. In the Netherlands, people hire escorts to go to the hospital with them to ensure they are not euthanized. In the UK hospital, euthanasia is on the upswing. All of this is to control costs.  You seem like a very reasonable, thinking person.  Do some homework and you will see that what I have said is true. I have also been in a hospital in a major European city and it looked like something from the 1950’s!

Well, Lin, I will have to take your word about health care because I haven’t seen any difference in my coverage or my medical bills. As far as the “conscience clause”, I am against it. Good business people will just obey the mandate. Only ultra scrupulous employers will have a problem. It’s not a sin to provide required health care coverage just because that coverage might include something you consider sinful. The courts will rule the same.

Bill S…......Please define “good business people”.  All Catholic hospitals, Catholic schools, etc, are not ultra scrupulous.  So a conscience clause is OK for the military but not Catholic employers?!?  It is a sin to support murder and many Christians and other religions do not believe in abortion and euthanasia. It’s too early for you to see any change to your coverage and medical bills but it is not far off. Remember who wanted to get re-elected!  And you well may be right about the courts, I have no confidence in our government and courts to maintain our freedoms as written in to the constitution. God bless you!

“So a conscience clause is OK for the military but not Catholic employers?!?”

Lin, are you referring to conscientious objectors who, when drafted into the military, refused to fight and kill based on religious or personal beliefs?  How do employers who don’t want to provide complete coverage to their employees possibly compare to them?  A good business person does not allow religious beliefs to come in the way of sound business practices like obeying the law.

Alice, if you are serious about this question -
why the Judeo-Christian God instead of any other? It’t not
just about trying to convince atheists that there is a god, but why that
particular mythology? - then I will try to answer it for you…

Primarily because it is the truth.  God is Love and no other religion presents love as fully, and truly.  How do I know?  By looking at Jesus on the Cross.  “Greater love has no man than that he lay down his life for his friends.”  And not just his friends - He makes everyone his friends, praying even for the forgiveness of those who crucify Him (even for you and me).  And more than that He is the only “myth” that calls us to love our enemies, to do as He has done; thus He invites us to share in that greatest love with Him. 

I could also speak of the peace that surpasses understanding expressed in His most holy NAME (YHWH), but if you’re not interested in peace and love and truth, there is no point.  The question is do you wish to come out of the darkness, or mock those who are entering the light?  God has given you a free will, reflective of His own Being, and it is up to you to choose life, or death.

Bill S,
Maybe the difference is that you don’t view the matter as an issue of conscience, while others may.And that’s part of the point, only folks who object to providing services they believe conflict with their conscience are affected adversely by the mandate.For most businesses & employers, it’s not even remotely an issues of conscience.
That’s probably true for the example you gave regarding conscription into the military.Very, very few folk are truly pacifists by sincere religious conviction. But some, like the Amish, Mennonites, etc are.Historically, exceptions have been made for them.
My daddy had a cousin who converted to Catholicism & he somehow understood that to mean he could not participate in WWII. The Army didn’t agree & threw him into military prison.I think our cousin was sincere, but he was more acting on his personal beliefs than Church teaching.If the Church taught as clearly on non-participation in war as it does on contraception & sterilization, he’d have been in the clear.Just like the Amish.
It’s a big step from govt.mandating employers to cover contraception to wholesale euthanasia,eugenic sterilzations, etc, but Lin has valid points.
We’re just one generation past Nazi Germany, only maybe 40 some years past the last eugenic sterilizations carried out here in the USA.
I think it’s always wise to evaluate what is “good business” as opposed to what are good ethics, good conscience.
Worldwide, things are kind of slipping backwards in this regard, so it’s wise to be vigilant.Not paranoid, but vigilant.

Kathleen,

That is an interesting story about you father’s cousin. I’m afraid that the government is going to have the same attitude to employers who don’t want to obey the HHS Mandate. Catholics have a way of trying the government’s patience. First they oppose abortion. The government sees it as a personal matter and therefore protects the woman’s right to choose. Then they oppose contraception and link the morning after pill to abortion (which is legal anyway). They oppose gay marriage which is looking more and more like its going to be ruled a constitutional right. I won’t get into other things they oppose that involve personal freedoms protected or allowed by the government.  So, I don’t see the Church or the employers winning this one. And I am for employee health plans covering contraception.

Bill S,
I think other folks of goodwill have tried the government’s patience in the past, too.That’s a good way of putting it.
The sad part of our cousin’s story is that following the imprisonment he became mentally unstable.Or perhaps he had underlieing troubles that just got worse due to the stress.But, even though I’d differ with him on the draft, I really respect his take on what constituted being a Christian & living it out, even if it led to imprisonment.He had an important career going on & he gave it all up.

Bill S…...No one should have to obey an unjust law.

Lin, I agree that no one should have to obey an unjust law, but some battles are not worth fighting because the of the consequences.  There is no shame in obeying a law that you don’t particularly agree with in order to avoid fines or imprisonment. And when you are running a business, you are responsible to your employees to keep the business running. You have to weigh the pros and cons of disobeying a law. That’s all I am trying to say.

Bill S and Kathleen….....I am not paranoid by nature but if you read the history of Germany and what preceded Hitler rule you can see the similarities to what is going on in our own country right now. Like you said, we must be vigilant!  And we need to protect each other’s backside. Just because you think abortion and contraception is OK, does not mean that you cannot stick up for my right to object!?!  Which happens to be a Constitutional right!  So much for the Constitution!  Since when is there a Constitutional right to contraception, or health care for that matter. We have never turned anyone down in this country that required health care. It is not the American way.  With the government involved, costs will go through the roof, and people will be denied health care if they are deemed not worthy to live.  We need to defund this law NOW!

“Since when is there a Constitutional right to contraception, or health care for that matter. We have never turned anyone down in this country that required health care. It is not the American way.”

Something does not have to be a constitutional right to be a good idea.  While it is true that no one can be turned away from an emergency room, this is not considered to be a valid healthcare program.

It’s becoming amusing that something with such good intentions is being compared to early Nazi Germany.

James Kurt—what do you know about other religions/mythology?

I know they don’t have a God who suffered and died for the sins of His people.  Nor do they call their followers to do the same.  (Not to say that they don’t have redeeming qualities.)

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0QhP9uWqVw
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http://sacred-texts.com/bib/cv/wscs/wscs34.htm
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**********
Wanna bet?

Lin,
I sure hope you didn’t misunderstand.I’m completely against the HHS mandate.
The paranoia remark I just intended in general, certainly not to you.I’m very much aware of the patterns we have in common with Germany-& those we don’t.It’s something we always need to mindful of.When we don’t remember history, it tends to reoccurr.But I think we have to be grounded in facts & be ready to answer folk reasonably when we defend our views.Most folk commenting here do just that.
God bless!

“I’m very much aware of the patterns we have in common with Germany-& those we don’t.It’s something we always need to mindful of.When we don’t remember history, it tends to reoccurr.”

Is it really necessary for opponents of the HHS Mandate to compare the Obama administration to the Nazis when all they are trying to do is provide universal health care?

Kathleen….....I did not misunderstand.  We appear to be on the same page. So many are blinded by the media hype.

Bill S….......Universal health care is not the goal. If you do not defend me, I won’t be around to defend you.

God bless all!

Bill,
I know it seems like a stretch, but when govt coerces folk to either betray their conscience or be penalized it does harken back to Nazi Germany, Tsarist Russia, Soviet Russia, etc. Germany’s the obvious example, but it’s a pattern that goes back a long way.Sometimes Jews are the target, sometimes Catholics, Muslims, whatever.
The issue of conscience at hand may seem petty to folk who don’t hold the same convictions. I understand that.

“I know it seems like a stretch, but when govt coerces folk to either betray their conscience or be penalized it does harken back to Nazi Germany, Tsarist Russia, Soviet Russia, etc.”

Kathleen. Think about what you are saying. Sometimes people can be so adamant about something that they lose all sense of reality. Is that what is happening to you? The average Joe can appreciate that his employee health plan covers the pill. It is only some religious quirk that makes any of this wrong. I’m OK with a government that serves its citizens to the best of its ability, even if doing so requires it to ignore certain religious quirks but not the real freedom of religion that has nothing to do with what companies should provide in their employee health plans.

Your comparisons to tyrannies is over the top.

Bill,
Again, if the issue at hand is of no consequence to one morally, it will difficult to comprehend how that same issue might be of great moral consequence to another.I understand you are seeing things differently,
but by saying “religious quirk”, you denote little consequence to sterilization, contraception, etc. Some folks of faith differ.
Circumcision, dietary rules,forms of dress & which day out of seven to rest seem quirky to the “average Joe”, too unless they are a part of his faith tradition.
Tyrannies can begin incrementally.Hostility to religion is increasing. So is anti-semitism in Europe.I think it’s prudent to be wary.

Kathleen,

I can honestly envision a secular and democratically elected government that shows no deference to religion yet is not tyrannical in any way, shape or form. On a smaller scale, as a microcosm of a secular government, imagine taking a job with an atheist employer who specifically prohibits all references to religion and will hire and promote anyone of any religion provided that they follow a strict “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy on religion. No trying to convert anyone, no religious symbols or pictures, no praying in the workplace. Other than that, the work conditions are ideal and the pay is more than fare. Would you compare the workplace to a concentration camp and the employer to Stalin or Hitler?  Probably not because the employer is fulfilling its most important purpose which is keeping you off unemployment or welfare.

It’s the same with the government. And that doesn’t make it a totalitarian state.  We have our freedom and our right to elect our government. We don’t need religious quirkiness to maintain it.

Bill S,
The difference is that I can choose whom I work for.Govt mandates with attached, crushing penalties & no exemptions for religious convictions do not allow for choice or freedom of religion.
You have a right, certainly, to envision any type of govt you choose, but your description does not fit the United States Constitution.It doesn’t even resemble our armed services.

Yes. That was an extreme example. The question is “would you want to work for such an employer?”  The answer is “Yes. If the alternative is to be unemployed”. Same applies to our attitude toward our government. It can’t be ruled by the scrupulosity of one religious group.

Bill,
I think I may have a higher standard for our country or maybe more optimism in its future.Folks fled here for religious freedom & have fought wars to defend liberty.
I know your analogy was extreme, but that seems a dark view.Freedom’s dear & worth every effort.

Bill, for the faithful Catholic contraception is the heart of the culture of death and abortion its most obvious sign.  They are both grave sins with the potential to cause one to come to eternal damnation.  To be asked to participate or cooperate in any way with such evil is completely abhorrent to the faithful Catholic.  Hospitals, schools, businesses would sooner close down (which may be the administrations goal) than cooperate.  What is a quirk to you is a matter of life and death to others.  Try to step out of your own head and, though you have no faith or sensitivity to these issues yourself, imagine what it would be like to be a person asked to cooperate with the killing of others or the damnation of their souls.  It is like being asked to shoot the puck into your own net; only for us this is not a game but a matter of life and death.

“They are both grave sins with the potential to cause one to come to eternal damnation.  To be asked to participate or cooperate in any way with such evil is completely abhorrent to the faithful Catholic.”

You know, the government just might determine that an opinion like yours is so out of touch with reality that it is not good government policy to pay any further attention to protests from your religious group. I think Obama will take that approach for the remainder of his term and the next president will do the same unless the religious right makes a miraculous comeback and elects the next president.

Thus the comparisons to Nazi Germany (for us Catholics).

Bill S…....Most of us work for secular employers that do not permit references to religion. And if a secular business wants to offer birth control, so be it.  But a Catholic employer should not have to offer coverage for birth control. And if one does not like, get a different job. This is about FREEDOM OF RELIGION!  Not quirkiness!  The Catholic Church is the oldest organization in the world. It did not make these beliefs up within the last 6 months just to throw a wrench in the HHS mandate.  Why do you want to dismantle this country by tossing out the Constitution?  Just remember that when you throw Christians under the bus, there will be fewer people to stick up for the atheists when they take away your rights!

Arnold Toynbee (historian) once said, “Of the 22 civilizations that have appeared in history, 19 of them collapsed when they reached the moral state America is in today”. He died in 1975.  Our moral state has gotten much worse since his death.

“Why do you want to dismantle this country by tossing out the Constitution?”

Lin, no one is tossing out the Constitution. There are presently a number of court cases challenging the mandate. If it is ruled to be unconstitutional then it is. Otherwise, it is not. The Catholic Church has no say in determining the constitutionality of a law or regulation. That is up to the courts.

Posted by James Kurt on Wednesday, Mar 6, 2013 1:05 PM (EST):
“Bill, for the faithful Catholic contraception is the heart of the culture of death and abortion its most obvious sign.  They are both grave sins with the potential to cause one to come to eternal damnation.  To be asked to participate or cooperate in any way with such evil is completely abhorrent to the faithful Catholic.”
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It’s already been established that “Natural Family Planning” is a method of contraception.
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Posted by Lin on Wednesday, Mar 6, 2013 9:56 PM (EST):
.....The Catholic Church is the oldest organization in the world. It did not make these beliefs up within the last 6 months just to throw a wrench in the HHS mandate.  Why do you want to dismantle this country by tossing out the Constitution?  Just remember that when you throw Christians under the bus, there will be fewer people to stick up for the atheists when they take away your rights!
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Actually, democracy is much older—it’s traced as far back as the 6th Century BCE. Catholic history of riddled with suppression of any democratic society.
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Your religion is not threatened—just its role in governing our secular country.

Artificial contraception, if you wish to be particular.

Posted by Lin on Tuesday, Mar 5, 2013 12:33 PM (EST):
“Bill S and Kathleen….....I am not paranoid by nature…Yes, you are!

“Govt mandates with attached, crushing penalties & no exemptions for religious convictions do not allow for choice or freedom of religion.”
For Pete’s sake! They are not being sent to prison! They simply won’t get government funding. Why should a government pay for you to be Catholic?

“Just remember that when you throw Christians under the bus, there will be fewer people to stick up for the atheists when they take away your rights!”
Do you really expect me to believe you’d stick up for atheists? You deny our right to marry the person we love, control our own bodies, and how we should behave. Better to throw Christians under the bus than to let Christians throw atheists under the bus.

Olivia…......Democracy is not an organization. It is a form of government. Our religion is definitely not threatened. Religious freedom, the Constitution, and the survival of our country are threatened. Re:  Toynbee quote above.

“the potential to cause one to come to eternal damnation”
Religious nonsense words.
“person asked to cooperate with the killing of others”
Refuse to participate.
“or the damnation of their souls”
Religious nonsense words.
“this is not a game but a matter of life and death.”
of a group of cells?
“Toynbee quote above.”
Hilarious.

“Religious freedom, the Constitution, and the survival of our country are threatened.”

Lin, I think religious freedom, the Constitution and our country will survive the HHS mandate. It’s not as if HHS or the administration have any serious issues with the religions of others. This is more of an issue of employers wanting to deny coverage for their employees because the employers’ religion prohibits them from practicing contraception and the employers trying to impose that prohibition on their employees who may or may share their faith.

The Romans did not expect the fall of the Roman Empire either.  As a country, we are dead to the TRUTH!

Lin—just because we are no longer pandering to religion does not mean you are being persecuted. Your Church, like Tinkerbell, will only survive if people continue to believe. If the new Pope doesn’t makes some radical changes, the influence of the Catholic Church will continue to shrink.
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Almost 20% of Americans are “nones” who have no religious affiliation and think that religious organizations are too concerned with money and power, too focused on rules and too involved in politics.
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Most people don’t want to be sheep.

Olivia…....Freedom of religion is at stake, not pandering. There will be no radical changes to the Church because none are required. The TRUTH is the TRUTH. The Church may in fact become fewer in number as was predicted in the Bible. We pray daily for the conversion and salvation of all. The sheep are the ones following this culture of instant gratification, short lived pleasures, and death.

“There will be no radical changes to the Church because none are required. The TRUTH is the TRUTH.”

Sorry. But those are the words of someone in denial. So the Catholic Church has been right from its very beginning and never must change. But the rest of us mere mortals are pathetic sinners and must constantly repent and reform our lives. Right, Lin. I’ve got a bridge to sell you. Just listen to yourself.

I’m pretty sure the last Pope was given his golden parachute because he couldn’t change. He is being blamed by some groups for covering up the scandals, and promoting the spread of AIDS and other STDs in condemning the use of condoms. Dawkins, et al. has caused him to avoid visiting Britain for threat of being charged with international “crimes against humanity.”

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The new Pope will probably be more flexible in things like contraception and homosexuality.

“The TRUTH is the TRUTH.”
Religious people are so funny.  Every religion is the One True Religion and possesses the “truth”.  All of the thousands of others are wrong and their followers are going to an unpleasant mythical place.  Need I say “hilarious”?

“The truth is like a lion. You don’t have to defend it. Let it loose. It will
defend itself.”

                                                               Augustine of Hippo

“Augustine of Hippo”
Typical non-argument from a dead authority?  Hilarious?

I pray you will still find it “hilarious” 100 years from now. GOD bless you!

So, let me get this straight - because all religions claim to have the whole Truth (they don’t, but we won’t make a point of your intellectual sloth on this point), then that means, what… that none of them has the Truth?  So by that eminent logic, if 15 men all claim they will be the next president, none will?  Or if 10 baby food companies all claim to have the best baby food, none do (and you will simply let your baby starve because they are all liars)?  Or if 5 men claim to love a woman beyond all others, none actually do and she should die an old maid?  Hilarious!    Is it not more logical to think that all want what only one has?  (And if one has it, it might behoove you to seek which that might be instead of writing mocking comments on a Catholic site… or do you perhaps think you might be in the right place after all?)

http://www.nairaland.com/1120553/jesus-wept-oh-bad-plumbing
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When water started trickling down a statue of Jesus Christ at a Catholic church in Mumbai earlier this year, locals were quick to declare a miracle. Some began collecting the holy water and the Church of Our Lady of Velankanni began to promote it as a site of pilgrimage.

So when Sanal Edamaruku arrived and established that this was not holy water so much as holey plumbing, the backlash was severe. The renowned rationalist was accused of blasphemy, charged with offences that carry a three-year prison sentence and eventually, after receiving death threats, had to seek exile in Finland.

And your point is…?  That there are charlatans in the world?  Not exactly news.  That, as this is written, the man is being unjustly persecuted?  Agreed.

“because all religions claim to have the whole Truth”
Then Occam’s Razor would certainly point to the fact that the most likely answer is that none of them have any “truth”.  There was no Adam or Eve.  There was no “original sin”.  There might not even have been a “Jesus”.  There is obviously no such thing as a “soul”.  It’s anti-science mythology all the way down.  More recent religions like Mormonism and Islam are even more obviously just made up nonsense.
“Is it not more logical to think that all want what only one has?”
No, that’s crazy.  They all know that they are the only one who has it.  And since they all conflict, the most likely explanation is that it’s all just made up nonsense with no evidence at all.

Misapplication of Occam’s Razor…..Those who do not worship GOD, worship the devil so says our new Pope Francis.

keep looking

My point is that your “testimony” means nothing in the face of real evidence, and Catholics reject reality in favor of superstition.
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“Those who do not worship GOD, worship the devil so says our new Pope Francis.”
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More duplicity and false dichotomy. Those who do not worship your God may worship other god(s) or not worship anything at all.
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This is the doctrine of willful ignorance. It causes such an unbalance of reality in the lives of religious believers that they’ve largely become a parody unto themselves. Willful ignorance not only sustains superstitious beliefs, but it is also responsible for why believers are so fiercely protective of their gods. The most detrimental result of willful ignorance, though, is that it causes most believers to resist that spark of skepticism that results in the journey down the path of enlightenment and remains one of the most injurious obstacles to the growth and evolution of our societies.
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Sometimes I don’t know whether to laugh at you or pity you.

Lin and James—my comment is being checked in spamville again. but I still want to send this part:
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Sometimes I don’t know whether to laugh at you or pity you.

Well, to laugh would be unkind, so if love of others is important to you then that would not be a good option - certainly I would forgive you for doing so, but again, what kind of person would that show you to be?  As for pity, that i would say would be the better option of the two.  It would show concern for others whom you think are on the wrong track. 
Personally, I am trying my best not to laugh or otherwise mock those who think as you do - though i cannot profess always to be successful (perhaps you can pray for me regarding this… if you pray at all); pity may not be exactly the right word.  I’m sure neither you nor i feel we need pity - we both find ourselves perfectly happy where we are… i suppose it would be something more like concern (both for the mockery and for the inability to recognize spiritual realities).

“Laughter kills fear, and without fear there can be no faith. For without fear of the devil there is no need for God.”
—-Sean Connery

Your point is not completely clear… but a quote that comes to mind in response is:
“There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out all fear.”  And continuing the same, perhaps more germane to the matter at hand: ““if any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1Jn:18,20).
Perhaps you prefer the philosophy of Sean Connery, but I would encourage you to go beyond that to the love of God.

People who don’t like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn’t have such ridiculous beliefs.
The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
Delos B. McKown

Ah, but the difference is all the world!

(And I don’t mind my faith being laughed at, not for my sake anyway.)

If no god or gods exist then so what? Let’s assume that life on Earth is unique throughout the entire universe, as much of the evidence to date indicates. That doesn’t mean that we are forsaken and that world-anarchy will eminently ensue. In fact nothing changes, except for the centuries old burden of incorrect beliefs and hatred amongst differing races is removed in an instant. We can still adhere to the laws of the land and the moral codes taught to us by our parents. We could learn to have greater respect for planet Earth and all of its life and not just human life. We could learn to live with people from all races and not immediately hating and wanting to kill someone just because they believe in a different god.

I don’t want to kill anyone because they believe in a different god…  don’t know anyone who does.  Do you? 
(I suppose it has already been suggested to you that you have a very pessimistic view of religion, focussing like a laser on whatever problems may have been the result of the abuse of religion and ignoring rather completely the good that has been done in the name of God.  And since God is Love, since God is good, it is these acts that show His true face.)

Like you, I kill as many people as I want to.
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I don’t have a pessimistic view of all religions, just yours. I know many “nones” and a few other quasi-religions that don’t think people are born in sin, and expect blind obedience.
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And you may think “God is Love,” but love is not god.

“So, let me get this straight - because all religions claim to have the whole Truth (they don’t, but we won’t make a point of your intellectual sloth on this point), then that means, what… that none of them has the Truth?”

As an outside observer, one thing that all religions have is outlandish claims that can’t be substantiated. By seeing how ridiculous are the claims made by other religions, one can use the same logic to look at one’s own religion’s claims. If someone claimed that Lord Krishna was born of a virgin, a Catholic could easily raise all kinds of arguments for why this is just a myth. But the same arguments apply to Jesus. The same goes for the miracles, the Resurrection and the Ascension. If other religions made similar claims, they would be summarily dismissed as legend.

When I was a kid, I used to think: “what are the chances that I would be born in the best country in the world and have the best religion in the world”. Now I know differently.

“Those who do not worship GOD, worship the devil so says our new Pope Francis.”
Hilarious.  What would you expect a Pope to say?  That neither a god nor a devil actually exist?  That there is nothing supernatural?  That the concept of “worship” is simply crazy?  That nothing in religion is compatible with reality?

Wendy, hopefully neither of us has killed anyone (or wants to); but if we have, we are not beyond the love of God and His mercy.

Bill, If it were claimed that Krishna was born of a virgin, it would be something that would have to be confronted, especially if one were raised a Hindu.  To say it can’t be because it can’t be is no different than someone who says the Earth cannot revolve around the sun because it can’t be.  The same type of dogmatic thinking is at work.  If your upbringing was anything like mine, you have very little real understanding of the Catholic Church.  It is remarkable how little one can know about something even after 12 years of education in Catholic schools.  I doubted just about every teaching of the Catholic Church.  But I also took the time to, first, find out what that teaching really was (asking a priest or referring to the new Catechism); then I took the time to pray about it (no point to this I suppose if you’ve decided already that you have no soul, no life within you.  Can’t pray in a vacuum.  But if there is something inside you…)  One must make truth one’s sole desire - seek the truth in love.  If one just simply says “it can’t be” then obviously it can never be for that person because he is utterly closed to to anything that might contradict his materialist and relativist (or Catholic) dogma. 

Sorry - the comment re killing should have been posted to Bethany (not Wendy).

I wouldn’t worship a god who would forgive me for murder or any other crime. Does you god forgive Ted Bundy, Jeffry Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy?
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And in case Claire didn’t inform you, I change my moniker everytime my old one gets banned so I can continue to comment.

No forgiveness, for any crime?  So, can we presume that you are perfect and in not in need of forgiveness, or that you have no mercy for anyone, or that you don’t want forgiveness?  It would seem that this is where your problems with God might have their root, for if He is nothing else He is a God of mercy.
As for the three persons you mention, that is between God and them (the only person beyond His forgiving embrace is the one who refuses His love.. who does not ask for or want it), but I can give the example of John Paul II, who met with and offered forgiveness to his assassin.

“No forgiveness, for any crime?  So, can we presume that you are perfect and in not in need of forgiveness, or that you have no mercy for anyone, or that you don’t want forgiveness?”

That’s not the right way of looking at it. The only one who can truly forgive is the victim or the victim’s survivors. No one else can forgive a criminal and justice has nothing to do with the guilt or innocence of the judge.  Despite what people like to believe, when you’re dead you’re dead. Good people don’t go anywhere. Bad people don’t go anywhere. They all just cease to exist. Rewards and punishments must be doled out here and now.

OK, that’s clearer.  But who is responding - I thought I was speaking with Wendy.  (Is it Bill who is Bethany… or is Wendy become Bill… or are you all the same person…?)

Sorry for interrupting. Wendy and I are separate entities.

No problem.  Just wanted to be clear who it was (since you answered something addressed to her - but you are certainly free to give your opinion on the subject.)  Though i guess I’m wondering now how you know so well that there is no afterlife…  because you can only believe what you see?  All that we see is indeed passing, is dying before our eyes.  But I suppose I ask again, is there no life within you that cannot be seen?

Everything about me is stored in my brain. As the brain goes I go. When the brain stops working, I will no longer exist.

Nothing but a brain?  No heart, no breath, no bowels…  This is a strange creature indeed.  You must be particularly top-heavy.
Hast thou heard not of balance?  Of wholeness if not holiness?  Is it wise to deny the other parts of your being?  What does your brain say…?  (I can’t help but think of the quote from Hamlet: “There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio?”)

It’s all stored in the brain. That doesn’t mean I don’t have a body. But who I am ceases to exist when the brain stops working. You don’t have to come back with silly remarks just because you can’t face that reality about yourself.

(Nothing was meant to be silly. Sorry it seemed so.)  OK I see, but then that doesn’t answer the question I asked - Is there no life in you (now) that cannot be seen?  The brain seems to me to represent what can be seen (sensed).  Is there nothing about you of significance apart from the brain?  … I suppose I am pointing toward the breath of life that animates us.  Perhaps the love of the heart…  It really does seem to me there is about these ideas (and this age in general) something overly concentrated on the cranial matter.

We still don’t know how life began. But once it began as amino acids, proteins, RNA, DNA, single cell organisms, etc., we know that life evolved into what we are today, highly advanced mammals with relatively large brain size to body size ratios. The brain is like an extremely complex computer. All our consciousness depends on the brain functioning as it does. If you were to sleep without dreaming, that would be the closest thing to being dead. I don’t know if that answers your question.

I didn’t say I was perfect, I just said that there are things that should not be forgiven, and if I had ever done them I wouldn’t deserve to be forgiven. It doesn’t matter if I want forgiveness or not. If Jesus loves the likes of serial killers, rapists, and mass murders, I don’t want any part of it.
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Bill-don’t worry about interrupting—they do it all the time. We are separate entities and I promise I will not use your moniker for my rants. James and his ilk have limited thinking skills and no imagination. Uncertainty scares them, whereas I find it attractive as an opportunity to learn and grow. I think you have the same attitude, but you are more polite and control you anger better than I do.
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Best of all, you can agree that you don’t know everything, and you could be wrong. James, Kathleen, anna lisa, Matt B, et al MUST be right all the time.

Bill,

I think the computer analogy is a good one.  What I am saying is that man is more than a computer, more than a machine, however complex that machine might be.  This discussion is an example of that.  Is this only our brains at work?  Do computers run on their own?  By mentioning the breath of life I am trying to get at the root of the word “spirit” which is quite literally “breath”.  There is something in the breath that gives life, that sustains life, that somehow fans the flame that is the mind.  We are animate beings - and the words anima and soul are the same.  Don’t know if that makes any sense.

Wendy,
It is a key paradox of Church teaching that God loves the sinner and hates the sin.  It is a very important distinction to be made because one should not be defined by one’s sins, nor should one condone sinful behavior.  If you could understand this perhaps you would be open to forgiveness whatever you may have done.  My prayer is for you is such openness to God’s mercy.

“By mentioning the breath of life I am trying to get at the root of the word “spirit” which is quite literally “breath”.  There is something in the breath that gives life, that sustains life, that somehow fans the flame that is the mind.”

Yes, James. You are talking about oxygen to the brain that keeps us experiencing life.

“We are animate beings - and the words anima and soul are the same”

I call it consciousness. It is a function of the brain and we lose it forever when we die. How we remain aware and experience an afterlife cannot be explained medically.

James, your contention that “God loves the sinner, but not the sin” is a cop-out from taking responsibility for your actions. It’s no wonder that religion does not prevent crime. Many criminals comfort themselves with the idea that god/Jesus will forgive him/her because of the “circumstances.”
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What’s the point of heaven and hell if there is no reward or punishment to the sinner?

I understand your physiological references, but expecting everything to be explained medically, and so that what cannot be explained medically does not exist, shows that over reliance on the brain, on science, that I am talking about, and which seems to close one off from any other possibilities. 
It seems to me the most you could say using your method of determining the existence of things is that as far as you can see, there is no life after death; the body gives every appearance of death and decay and shows no hope for new life.  But you cannot say what might later happen to that body (in a thousand or a million years…) or if there is or not something other than just the body, something that cannot be seen, because one cannot see it and therefore it would be outside your purview.  So, to say there are no invisible realities would not be your determination to make because it would not be the concern of the science you profess, no?

It cannot really be said to be a cop-out if for no other reason than that the Church does teach that there is a hell.  There is certainly punishment for sin.  What it shows is that the love of God is greater than any sin of man, and that in His love He does not wish any soul to experience the punishment for sin he has stored up for himself.  (A punishment so great that we could never atone for it ourselves… thus Christ’s willing sacrifice.)
Should also distinguish crime from sin, though they often go together, crime would be the concern of the State while sin the concern of the Church.  So, one might repent of one’s sin and find forgiveness (with God) yet still remain in jail the rest of one’s life for one’s crime, or even be put to death (by the State).

“But you cannot say what might later happen to that body (in a thousand or a million years…) or if there is or not something other than just the body, something that cannot be seen, because one cannot see it and therefore it would be outside your purview.”

James. I’m not sure I understand where you are going with this. Are you taking the resurrection of the body as a literal certainty and trying to suggest that decomposed bodies are really going to come back to life some time in the distant future?  I really don’t see that happening. Do you really think you will die any differently than a dog or cat or any other living being?

The Catholic Church has its teachings on these matters. I fully expect you to disregard my views and embrace those teachings. I choose not to. No one should be made to believe something or be punished or somehow miss out on something like an afterlife.

James—You’ve set up a whipping boy for the afterlife and call him “Christ.”
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whipping_boy
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http://thesaurus.com/browse/whipping+boy

I’m not really trying to convince you of anything, just having an interesting discussion.  Obviously I believe in the Church’s teaching and so in a resurrection of the body (Jesus being the first to accomplish this).  For that matter i believe that that eternal life is present within me even as i type this.  I am trying to understand how you think and where that thinking would lead, not simply disregard it.  I am specifically trying to understand how you can be so sure that there is no afterlife.  And it seems to me that using the science you have outlined it is not possible to say, that to say that you would be stepping outside your own methods.  Simply, that science, the brain, does not deal with things unseen but only those that are seen.  (Sort of like as you cannot say what set off the Big Bang, you also cannot say what else that source of the Big Bang might do.  That it could very well be an invisible reality…)

Wendy, I didn’t set him up - he did that himself, out of love.  (A love all Christians are called to imitate, though we ever pale in comparison.)

“I am specifically trying to understand how you can be so sure that there is no afterlife”

It just is painfully obvious that every thought I have, everything I think about myself and the world around me, all that I am able to comprehend depends on the proper functioning of my brain and that once the brain stops functioning, that is it. Heaven and hell are just the carrot and the stick to control people. People believe simply because the Church tells them that they must in order to go to heaven. That is a lame reason to believe something so important to know one way or another. The promise of eternal life is the only thing the Church has to offer to get faithful followers. It’s all marketing.

It is certain that the powers of perception depend upon the functioning of the brain.  But, to stay on the physiological level, it is also true that our breathing is just as necessary to life - if we stop breathing for minutes, we will be dead.  The same with the beating of the heart.  This shows that there are other organs of critical importance.  One recommendation I could make would be to focus on your breathing, and if it doesn’t sound too poetic or Eastern, listen to your heartbeat.  Apart from words, apart from images…  There is a speaking in the silence.  This is what tells me of eternal life - I don’t need the Church to inform me of it.

So you’ve convinced yourself that Christ is your “willing” whipping boy. Isn’t that just compounding your sin? Is letting someone get executed for a murder you committed not also murder? Even if that person is you son and “willing” to take the fall for you, is that really morally acceptable?
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OK, believe Christ was a “willing sacrifice” who gave himself because he “loves” you. You, however, do Christ an injustice by letting him do so. Allowing harm to innocent beings is the worst kind of evil. Telling yourself that he suffered because he “loves” you is just like telling yourself that your son loves you because you beat him.
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Sadomasochistic fantasy.

I agree that allowing harm to innocent beings is the worst kind of evil.  It’s a good question why he would sacrifice himself, and why we would let him.  But the answer really is in love, not sadism. 
Two things might help to remember. 1. He is God.  2. We are called to join Him.
God is a loving Father who would do anything to save His children, even suffer a terrible death that His children might not have to.  (I think you can understand that kind of selfless love.)  Jesus is one with the Father, is God made flesh (not a separate creation from Him).  God could not saver us from His transcendent place in Heaven, so He becomes Man.  Also, being God He is able to overcome even death (and any suffering).
And again, we are called to join in His sacrifice for others, even for our enemies, because He would like to share His great love with us all.  (Can you see how it might be a blessing to care about others so much that you would give your life for them?)  Also again, not to take pleasure in the pain, which He and we would sooner forego; but to take joy in the redemption wrought by it.
Love is stronger than death.  It is what brings us to eternal life.

Keep telling yourself that. One day, under enough medication, you might even believe it without any cognitive dissonance.
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How can allowing an innocent to take the burden of YOUR sins? That is the most evil means of avoiding the consequences that you deserve for what you choose to do. You can do whatever you want, without considering whether it is good or evil. If it’s evil someone else takes the blame. All you have to do is nothing while an innocent suffers the pain and anguish of your crime.
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Of course, you need an innocent to resurrect because you will sin again and you need an innocent to take the punishment again. Christ is your punching clown—you can hit him with any sin you want and he bounces back.
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Well, I’ve certainly learned something about why you need to believe in Christ. You might have to accept responsibility for your sins, and actually suffer like he did. The crucifixion was horribly painful, so your sins must be truly heinous. I can see why the only way you can live with yourself is to believe that some supernatural deity will suffer it for me and still survive like Wile E. Coyote.
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Pardon the lengthy rant—I was just trying to understand how you consider a Whipping Boy something to worship.

No matter how I look at it, it’s still a sick, sadomasochistic and desperate attempt at justifying your existence.

“Apart from words, apart from images…  There is a speaking in the silence.  This is what tells me of eternal life - I don’t need the Church to inform me of it.”

James, you are a true man of faith. Far be it for me to try to destroy something so beautiful and innocent. I will give your technique a try.

Wendy,
I’m sorry you see it that way.  It is not true that “You can do whatever you want, without considering whether it
is good or evil.”  I’m not sure how the Church can be accused of that and also be accused of trying to put strictures on people’s freedom.  Again, the Church does teach there is a hell, so there is a consequence for sin, and again, once one is forgiven he is to take up his cross every day and follow in Jesus’ steps… not just go around sinning arbitrarily - that would be the path to h—-.  “Go and sin no more” Jesus said to the woman he forgave of adultery.  Other times he said you are healed now, see that you do not sin lest you end in a worse state.  It’s not a game, y’ know.  If you are not sincere about desiring forgiveness and resolved to amend your life, you do NOT receive forgiveness because you are lying to yourself and to God. 
Maybe this analogy will help.  My sister died at 15.  For years after that, until his own death, my father said: “Why couldn’t it have been me, James?”  This is how God loves us.

Wendy,

Tried to respond but message was flagged (don’t know why) - if it doesn’t get through by this evening, I’ll rewrite it.

Bill, don’t know how to respond to that.  If at some time you want to email, you can find my address at this site : hermitinthecity.libsyn.com (will have to scroll down a ways)

“to say there are no invisible realities would not be your determination to make”
What is an “invisible reality”?  Simply something that does not exist in any reality?  You have no evidence.
“There is certainly punishment for sin.”
Hilarious religious nonsense.
“how you can be so sure that there is no afterlife.”
Define “sure”.  Does the absence of evidence indicate evidence of absence?  Then I can be as “sure” of that as I am sure of anything.
“that science, the brain, does not deal with things unseen”
Hilarious religious misunderstanding of science and reality.
“Love is stronger than death.”
Religious nonsense.

James, you’ve got a heart of gold. You’re a credit to your religion.

I still find your “justification” that Jesus is you willing whipping boy so that you don’t have to face the consequences of your sins a shocking world view. Convincing yourself that he did/does it for love is a desperate defensive mechanism. If you didn’t believe that, you could bare to live with yourself.
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You are wrong to call him “Jesus the Christ” when you are using him as “Jesus the Chump.”

Sorry—another typo! I meant:
If you didn’t believe that, you couldn’t bare to live with yourself.

Bill, can you tell my wife that (especially the first part)?  I think she might not be in complete agreement.

Wendy (what is your name anyway, so I can use it for all your incarnations), at the risk of repeating myself - the principle way we convince ourselves it is out of love is by doing the same for others.  Have you never sacrificed for someone you love…?  Were you a “chump” for doing it?
I don’t know, maybe if you didn’t focus so much just on the pain he experienced…

I’m not sure what you mean by your last sentence, James. Don’t you think the pain Jesus the Chump suffered was excessive?
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What do you call a sacrifice? Getting married and devoting myself to my family? Taking care of my terminally ill father?
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My moral repugnance it that you believe it’s acceptable to allow some one else—a totally innocent person/sentient being—to take the punishment for the crime you are responsible for. Even if my son did it for “love” of me, how can you believe I would feel good about it?
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Maybe your father felt the same way about your sister, but she didn’t voluntarily die for him. He may wish he had the opportunity to die for her, but he didn’t offer her up to be sacrificed as Jesus’s so-called father did.
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I notice you mentioned your father wished he could have died instead. Do you feel the same?

Posted by James Kurt on Wednesday, Mar 20, 2013 6:44 PM (EDT):
Bill, can you tell my wife that (especially the first part)?  I think she might not be in complete agreement.

I hope she’s not atheist because living with you would be torture if she is.

Wendy, yes, of course, now.  Not at the time though - all I cared about then was myself.  Actually my sister’s death was an impetus toward conversion. It showed me what a proud so-and-so I’d become… 

Devoting yourself to your family and taking care of your dad is exactly what I’m talking about.  How would you feel if your dad said he didn’t want you to take care of him, to sacrifice for him?  There are a lot of people who are like that, who don’t want others to suffer for their sake.  Perhaps you’ve hit on something here - it takes a certain humility to accept the good that others do for us.  Sometimes it’s easier to give than receive.  It seems this may part of the problem you are are expressing. 

Two clarifications about Jesus - he did what he did willingly; and again He and the Father are One (so the father/son or daughter analogy would break down a bit here because there wouldn’t be the same separation).  And it is also not like I have a choice of allowing Him or not - he’s already done it.  It’s a matter of whether or not I will accept what he’s done.  I would be happy to suffer the punishment for my own sins if given the choice…  Though part of the teaching also is that we cannot atone for our sins ourselves anyway - offense against God requires more than we can accomplish.

Bill, she’s as religious as I am (believe it or not).  i was talking about the first part (“heart of gold”).

Wendy, yes, of course, now.  Not at the time though - all I cared about then was myself.

James—I get from that statement that your “revelation” was the result of your sister’s death. You haven’t described the nature of her death, but it obviously knocked some reality into your life. Do you try to convince yourself that she was willing to suffer for you? How would you feel if she asked you to take her place? How would you feel if she asked your father to take her place?

I don’t know the circumstances of your sister’s death, but I’m certain your sister did not ask to die—there is probably no reason why she did. You have to learn to deal with the facts of her death, and that she did not want to die any more than you want to die. Most important, you have to accept there was nothing you could do to prevent it.

Death happens, sooner or later. Human knowledge of our inevitable death is the reason humans invented religion in the first place.
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I still encourage you to look beyond the idea of a scapegoat to take the experience of the pain you should be experiencing yourself.  Learn that there are things beyond your control and are not directed by an invented deity who is supposed to care about you.

James, I fully expected that you would be married to a believer. I was just kidding you about how difficult it would be for an atheist to live with you and visa versa.

I would say that there was something I could have done to prevent it, if I had been a real older brother who was there for her.  There is nothing i could do to bring her back.  But I wouldn’t really want to do that anyway.  I became, through a distinct measure of my own pain, aware that she is blessed with God.  There was a difference between my father’s reaction and mine, even from early on.  At first, i just wanted my sister back but then came to terms with her death (and i would say it was acceptance of my guilt therein that was instrumental in this) but my father could not seem to quite do so, despite my reminders to him about how she had come to him that night (before he was shaken out of bed to go to the hill on which she’d fallen) telling him specifically that she was alright. 

I don’t think of her as suffering for me as such; and i would have had no problem with her asking me or my father to take her place. 

I have found that there is a reason for everything, even accidents.  Death certainly happens to all, but also all have life.  That life does not come from us ourselves. 

I appreciate your advice.  I would say that what i see in it is a giving death a kind of ultimate significance.  Which makes me wonder if you yourself have faced it squarely enough to be able to see through it.  Or is it like a dark, impenetrable cloud hovering overhead about which you have some fear, some fatalism?

Wendy, my message to you was again flagged… hopefully it will appear later.

Bill (and maybe Wendy too), I was thinking that if you get a chance you might want to check out the writings of St. John of the Cross.  He is known as the mystical doctor of the Church (though in his teaching he does not give much weight to mystical phenomena like visions or levitation, except to make clear that one should be purged of any attachment to them, as well as to the senses, the imagination…)  Dark Night of the Soul is his most famous work and it would be a good choice.  (It is preceded by a work called Ascent of Mt. Carmel and followed by the Spiritual Canticle.)

Thanks, James. I will put them on a list and eventually hopefully read them.

“I would say that there was something I could have done to prevent it, if I had been a real older brother who was there for her.”

Wow James. It must be hard carrying feelings of guilt like that. Whatever it was that you did or didn’t do, there must have been factors beyond your control or things you could not have possibly known at the time. You seem like way to good a person to have had any culpability.  I suspect that you have been and still are being way to hard on yourself.

James—you were/are not responsible for your sister’s death. There is no reason to feel guilty. Your whipping boy is suffering for nothing, in your case. There was nothing you could do—why blame yourself?

James—I don’t think you are reconciled with your sister’s death, and you feel responsible and guilty over something that was out of your control. You desperatly need to believe there was a reason she died and you are using the twisted logic of religion to convince yourself that her death has a divine purpose.
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I suspect you were around the same age as your sister when she died—still young and full of yourself. This is perfectly normal—I know many young people who seem to think they’re immortal and nothing can go wrong for them. Sooner or later one day everything is changed forever.
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You are being too hard on yourself. There are no reasons, except maybe human neglence, for accidents, disasters, or deaths of loved ones. You don’t need a whipping boy for something you didn’t do.

Thank you all for your concern.  It’s very nice of you, but as i mentioned i went through the process of grieving and coming to terms with her death and whatever guilt I may have had thirty years ago.  It was a blessed experience.  Can’t go into all the details here… but suffice it to say that recognizing what one has done wrong can be a very healthy thing, both in terms of getting to know oneself and in terms of finding forgiveness and grace.  I can’t say that I feel any guilt at all about not being there for her any more; in fact, I haven’t even thought much about it for a long time - left only with a sense of peace, of hope.. of light.  But I appreciate your concern.  God Bless.

Bill, I asked my wife if she thought I had a heart of gold.  She said i have a heart of red, with blood running through it - what do you expect from a nurse.

She’s not into metaphors, huh?

“I have found that there is a reason for everything, even accidents.”
A typical religious attitude?  How did you “find out” this non-fact?  Why must there be a “reason” for automobile accidents?  What does the word “reason” even mean in a sentence like yours?  What was the “reason” why that asteroid helped wipe out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago to allow the ascent of mammals?

Something good can come from something that seems only bad.  The light is not overcome by the darkness.  (She’s smiling upon you now from Heaven…)

Wendy, re your thoughts on God and man -
Man creates gods, but God created man.

Well-we agree on something—“god” is a human concept.
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If you agree to that, why do you believe it when there is no evidence that your sister’s death was not a random, tragic event in which neither your or your father had control? Why worship a deity would kill your sister for his own reasons? Why do you think you have to pay for your sister’s death with constant prayer and devotion to that deity?
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By the way—what does it mean that your sister is “blessed?” Was she “blessed” because she died, or do you like to believe she is among the angels?
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Sorry if the question upsets you, but I never thought that the response that the death of a loved one “has been blessed” by God to be a comfort to a grieving person.

Wendy, I think you may have missed the distinction I was making between “gods” - products of the human imagination (like the Greek gods, the Roman gods, the Hindu gods, the gods of greed and power, the gods of the entertainment world…), and “God”, the one living and true God of Heaven and earth (YHWH), who is the Creator of all and sustainer of all things in being.
Thus, “Man creates gods, but God created man.”
She was not blessed to die but blessed to be in the radiant light of that God I just mentioned.  (I can see how that would be of little comfort to a person who does not believe in God, and I can also understand how it is misused as a sort of vain platitude for everyone who has died.  I came to my belief re my sister after much sorrow, many tears, much doubt and darkness… then, well, perhaps this line expresses it best: “When the sorrows so deep, you feel nothing but joy.”  Then there is no turning back for there is no further darkness to face (only light).  Sort of like going through the bottom and coming out the top, if that makes any sense.

James—I made a previous reply, but it is still in Spamville.
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Please tell my why you think YHWH—a Semitic storm god that “grew up” to be the god of the bible—is the “true God” and brush off all other gods as man-made?
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“When the sorrows so deep, you feel nothing but joy” makes no sense to me, but I do know what you are talking about. Moving forward is the only choice we have in life whether you are religious or not. To me, your religion is a millstone around your neck which is dragging you down and slowing your progress in attaining happiness.

“the distinction I was making between “gods” - ... and “God””
A distinction without the slightest bit of difference.
“who is the Creator of all and sustainer of all things in being”
How do you know that?  Is it just “faith” - belief without evidence?

“Moving forward is the only choice we have in life whether you are religious or not. To me, your religion is a millstone around your neck which is dragging you down and slowing your progress in attaining happiness.”

I think James has moved forward. Even though I am not a believer, I’ve learned enough about James to know that his faith is doing just the opposite of dragging him down. It is lifting him up. There are other ways of looking at this tragedy but James’ way is working for him. It is one instance where I see religion as doing more good than harm.

Thanks, Bill, for the support.

Wendy, I can only say that the millstone (cross) is light and easy to bear; actually that is buoys me up.  I’m not sure you fully understand what I meant by the quote - it is more than moving on… it is finding joy.  If you go so deep there is no further to go, if you face all your fears and fear them no more - I cannot express the freedom that is found.
As for YHWH.  I have written a book on the Divine NAME, the Tetragrammaton, which is expressive of the Being of God.  It is a Name, a Word, beyond words, whose pronunciation is silence itself, which in pronouncing silences the tongue and the lips… and leaves one in a state of wordless wonder, of awe, in light, like a child…  (I can easily forgive you if this doesn’t make sense to you, since few believers seem to understand what I am trying to express…. not so easy to express the inexpressible.)  This is how the LORD conveys to us His transcendence, how the invisible God makes Himself known, how He who is pure Spirit, who cannot be named by anyone, reveals Himself to poor mortals.  (And Jesus is that Word made flesh and dwelling among us.)

I had to change my moniker to post again.
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Well James—it’s impossible to have a rational discussion about belief when your grief and guilt make you cling to an irrational belief.
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I’m done.

I have to say that I have enjoyed this discussion and it has taught me much.  I realize better now that those who may seem like they are trying to tear down the Church or the faith are not necessarily doing it out of bad motives but may actually honestly be trying to save others from what they perceive to be a problematic situation.  I think you have helped me to be a more understanding person.  Thanks and God Bless (if I may say so).

“i realize better now that those who may seem like they are trying to tear down the Church or the faith are not necessarily doing it out of bad motives but may actually honestly be trying to save others from what they perceive to be a problematic situation.”

That’s very understanding of you, James. I’ll be in touch. Thanks for the link to your website.

Jennifer, your blog is instrumental in the New Evangelization! Great blog! I have just published a history of the Church in the U.S. since Vatican II. Would you be so gracious to link my blog to yours? My third chapter (“Libido”) dovetails nicely with this blog post! http://youtu.be/FkkD_zHVQZg

“your blog is instrumental in the New Evangelization!”
Hilarious nonsense.
“Would you be so gracious to link my blog to yours?”
Hilarious.  It would seem that you think that JF actually reads the comments here.  Not a chance in you know where.

We definitely need a more vocal presence in the parishes when it comes to NFP. There are so many people that consider themselves very devout Catholics but they just do not get the teaching on birth control. My mother and grandmother were extremely judgmental about NFP when they found out my husband and I took NFP classes as part of our marriage prep. I heard all kinds of things from them. They thought that the teaching against birth control was to keep women down and keep them in the home. One of them said, “You cannot have a career unless you are on birth control”. I also heard, “Your method doesn’t work”. The level of bitterness and skepticism was ridiculous. They seem to think that the teaching about birth control is a way for a bunch of celibate men to control the lives of women and families when the men making the rules do not have families of their own. (Their words, not mine). When I said that NFP DOES work I got a sarcastic smile and a “I guess we will see”. I know my family expected me to be barefoot, pregnant, and having a child a year by now due to my decision to follow Church teaching. Fast forward to a couple of years later and my husband and I don’t have any kids. (We have some serious reasons to avoid right now, though I would love to have children now if it were prudent). I have a good career and none of the horror stories they had predicted came true. NFP does work.

When I was really fed up about the judgment I respectfully told my mother to just deal with it and leave me alone about it. I politely informed my mother that “she was the one who baptized me Catholic and raised me in Catholic schools, so she shouldn’t be too surprised if as an adult I live by Catholic teaching”. She couldn’t really come up with a response for that.

I hope that churches place a big focus on all the misconceptions about Catholic teachings regarding birth control. We have a lot of people out there that just don’t get it and look at the issue with a lot of bitterness.

“They seem to think that the teaching about birth control is a way for a bunch of celibate men to control the lives of women and families when the men making the rules do not have families of their own.”

The Church wants Catholics to have as many children as they can and for those children to be raised Catholic. It is no secret that lots of Catholics means lots of money being collected and the Church likes to have lots of money. Who doesn’t?

I’m glad that NFP works for you. There is no real rationale for NFP being a good thing and other methods of birth control being a bad thing except that it is easier to mess up using NFP resulting in more Catholic children and more money for the Church. As far as morality goes, there is no difference.

Laura,

Many older women ARE judgmental because they used older methods of NFP that weren’t very effective. Nor was any explanation given as to WHY contraception was wrong except “because the Church says so.”

Every wonder why Nancy Pelosi (age 73) is so hostile to the Church on this subject? When she was first married, she followed Church teaching. At the time, this meant the rhythm method. She had five babies in six years.

“Nor was any explanation given as to WHY contraception was wrong except “because the Church says so.”“

So what is the explanation?  I still don’t know why it is wrong.

“So what is the explanation?”
It’s against “nature”.  It’s against “natural theology”.
From Wikipedia: “Natural theology is a branch of theology based on reason and ordinary experience.”
(As if a theology could actually be based on the absence of evidence for any gods.)
Of course only certain people (like a Pope?) are qualified to decide what is and what is not against “natural theology”.

I learned NFP FROM my Mom who, rest her soul, would be at least 12 years senior to Nancy Pelosi. If Pelosi’s excuse (above) is accurate, it only underscores how badly the church has botched the message. Of course, Bill S. is modern-day example of same. Both he and Pelosi could and should have taken the initiative to understand the teaching, but it sure would help if even a little initiative was made at a parish level so these folks wouldn’t have to be so “on their own”.
Essentially, Bill S., the Church considers marriage to be a SACRAMENT, a living sign on earth of God’s love for His people, even modeling as St. Paul wrote, “a true mystery, and I take it to mean Christ & His church”. This means that sacramental marriage is supposed to be an earthly model of Christ’s love for His church. How did Christ love His church?—He gave EVERYTHING, HIS ENTIRE BODY to her, even to DYING for her!
Each sacrament has its SIGN, its WAY of conveying God’s love, and in marriage that sign is the sexual union—it is incredible that so many “Catholics” don’t know or appreciate that we believe that God transformed the banal utilitarian act of sex into a powerful and unifying demonstration of His love for His people, that is also the way by which He creates MORE people, MORE souls! THIS is why there is no room for artificial birth control in a sacramental marriage—it treats one or both partners and the gift of their fertility as if God was wrong or mistaken in creating them, that they have to neuter themselves in order to come together, that they CANNOT freely give their TOTAL selves to each other as Christ did to His church. Using only NFP as family planning allows a couple to come to an understanding & appreciate how wonderfully God has made us and how divinely He planned out the marital sacrament. It DOESN’T FORCE us to understand it, though—I’m sure that there are plenty of folks who’ve drudgingly used it without ever reaching this enlightenment—but I’m every bit as sure that enlightenment is impossible within contracepted marriages.
My husband and I planned on six kids using NFP, and we spaced them every 2-3 years for the 4 children we have. Then, due to “mid-life” issues challenging our marriage, we came to the realization that, we were called to be good and healthy parents to the four we already had—and no more. Our youngest is 27 years old and we have used NFP for that long with no “surprises”. It IS possible, and the depth of respect & love that conscientious use of NFP has brought to us and our family is immeasurable. I invite you to learn about Church teaching & come to your own appreciation that it’s NOT just “because the Church says so”.

More specifically it is against life, like a preemptive strike against life itself, and God, who is the God of life, who is Life, is summarily eliminated from the relationship.  Moreover, it is a pretense of love as it says - I give my whole self to you… but not really.  (It also facilitates the making of the other into a mere object for one’s pleasure, encourages irresponsibility, and is generally the heart of the culture of death in which the world finds itself mired.)

i think the issue is especially confusing for us teens in the church. we don’t have the luxury of so many years of experience with the teachings of the church, or of growing up with a society that is more open to the church’s views. as young adults, this is the time that we start to actively become members of our church, to live our lives in a way that God calls us all individually. but in a changing society where the church is widely criticized, its hard to have answers to the questions your friends ask. i know why abortion is wrong, but why doesn’t the church condone contraceptives? what exactly is the church’s stance on homosexuality? divorce? the internet is a great place to find heated debates about these topics, but no definitive answers. or the answers are long and hard to understand.
i know i’m not the only teenager who feels this way.

Catholicteen,

All I can say is that people can be misled. Conduct your own search for the meaning of life. Give equal time to both sides of the argument and make your own decision. Don’t listen to threats of going to hell if you don’t believe such and such. Good luck.

Catholicteen,
You seem like a very intelligent young person with a clear grasp of the situation as it exists today.  If you desire definitive answers you should go to the source, to the Church documents that state the Church’s teaching.  You should start with the Catechism of the Catholic Church (wherein you will find references to other documents if you require further explanation).  When you have a problem or a question about the Church’s teaching, don’t be afraid to ask a good priest to explain it to you - you will find them more than happy to answer the inquiries of an honest seeker, especially a young one.  It seems to me that you are intelligent enough to be able to discover and understand these teachings, and then to inform your fellow teens who are struggling.

As for the contraception question - here is just one paragraph from Humanae Vitae.  (The whole document is only 15 pages long and is the essential voice on the subject.)

see next comment

Consequences of Artificial Methods

17. Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.

Pope Paul VI wrote this in 1968, and we have certainly seen the moral decay which he speaks of, and which you recognize in your comment.

Catholicteen - I should mention that the Catechism is available online at usccb.org
Here is a quote re contraception (2370)
In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality….

Here is a passage from the Catechism re homosexuality (2357, 58)
Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. (2333)
2358   The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Again, it is best to bring any questions you may have to a good priest.

I just want to point out that not even the Catholic Church considers the Pope to be infallible except when defining matters of doctrine ex cathedra, which is certainly not the case for encyclical. Also, the whole concept of infallibility of any human(s) has been disproved many times. If I were to live my life over again I would start as an atheist and develop my understanding of life from scratch. I’ve had to unlearn a lot of stuff that I learned, particularly as it applies to religion. Imagine…

“Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other.”

James,

My wife was on the pill for over thirty years except for having our two sons. We have had a happy marriage and love each other. So, am I to understand that we only gave ourselves to each other completely when she was trying to conceive?  I think that is kind of silly and I was there, the Pope wasn’t. Why would someone who has made love listen to someone who presumably hasn’t. And what would he know about giving ourselves to one another. Did he father and raise a family and live with a soulmate?  Ridiculous.

Bill,
I lived with a woman for a few years and was convinced I was in love… I found out that trusting the Church is a bit better than trusting my feelings.  Principally because she is inevitably right.

@Bill S - I too am not sure what the reason is and would like to know if anyone can tell me the what “objective moral truth” is articulated in the forbidding of artificial contraception?

Gigi, I suppose you can say it concerns lies vs. truth; essentially it touches upon the definition of love.

To repeat: “This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality…”

But we live in a society that cannot tell truth from lie, and has no conception (no pun intended) of true love, so it is understandable you would have difficulty comprehending the problem of “lying” in this way.  (Can I ask you to read the above quote carefully a few times?  Perhaps something of its meaning might dawn.)

Okay – I’ve read it, but still don’t get what the “objective moral truth” is that is alluded to by Ms. Fulwiler as the basis for the prohibition of artificial contraception by the Catholic Church.
According to your quote, it looks like it is that we all must be “open to life”? Is that what you’re saying?

And, by ‘all’ I do mean Christians/Catholics that do believe in objective moral truths, myself included. Just so you don’t think I’m on a completely different plane, I just want to know what the moral truth/exact reasoning is for the prohibition.

And, assuming that “the inner truth of conjugal love” is, indeed to “give itself in personal totality” (which I’m not saying I don’t believe), how does that support or negate the prohibition of artificial contraception? What does one have to do with the other?

James,

What makes you think that celibate men know anything about conjugal love and the giving of one’s self to one’s partner by impregnating her or by conceiving his baby? It’s like that corny song “You’re having my baby. What a wonderful way of telling me you love me”.  Sorry. That might be before your time.  And why do you compare contraception to lying?

Gigi,
Artificial contraception precludes giving oneself in totality.  One would not be giving one’s fertility, which is an integral part of conjugal love.  Withholding this is what causes it to be a lie - again, saying I give you my all… but not this. 
I don’t see what could be more of an objective moral truth than the necessity of honoring marital love and embracing life.  And I can’t imagine more troubling consequences than those that have come from the contraceptive mentality so much at the heart of the culture of death.

James,

What percentage of the time that a couple makes love do you think they are doing it for the purpose of procreation and not for the enjoyment of the act itself?  Are couples who only have sex when the woman is infertile really giving all of themselves to each other?  What is the Church trying to do and why all these flimsy arguments about giving of ourselves fully to one another?  My wife and I just celebrated our 37th anniversary. To say that we haven’t given fully of ourselves in our lovemaking because we planned when to have children and how many. It was a mutual decision.

@James Kurt, thank you for the explanation. I don’t agree with it, but it’s the clearest explanation that I’ve heard for the prohibition. Although I do agree that it’s important to honor marital love and value life, I do not agree that artificial contraception contradicts either of these.  I believe that marital love can exist with infertile couples and couples past the childbearing age and, therefore, does not need to be tied to reproduction.  I also agree that the sexual act was created for both pleasure and procreation, and used in both of those situations can honor marital love, with or without the outcome of conception. I do not believe that managing fertility is the same as ‘withholding fertility’ within a loving, caring, communicative partnership with your spouse.  Valuing life does not mean that you should not exercise whatever ‘control’ (real or perceived) – whether interpersonal, chemical or mechanical you may have in managing your fertility.  And, in fact, I believe that valuing the lives of the children you do conceive should take priority over the value that you put on any life that you may possibly have produced in an unmanaged fertility scenario.  I do understand that there are some forms of artificial birth control that are more like abortion, and, therefore, not the same as those that prevent the pregnancy altogether.  But, I feel that utilizing resources available today to help you choose when and how many children you can realistically nurture, support and raise to successful adulthood is not what I consider a sin.

I have heard the saying that ‘God will not give you more than you can bear’ be used in the argument for contraceptive prohibition, but I do not believe that God wants any child to be a ‘burden that you must bear’ whether or not He can help you bear it!

ALL….......James Kurt put it beautifully when he said that inevitably the Church is right!

Gigi,
It is clear that I have still not explained things very well.  The conjugal embrace does not need to be tied to reproduction in the sense that if you don’t conceive the act is lacking worth.  (It is also troubling to hear your division of pleasure and procreation as if they do not go together.)  It certainly can exist with infertile couples - but those couples are not intending to subvert what they possess… there is no fertility to preclude, to deny, to withhold.  They are giving all that they have to give to one another.  Again, the outcome of conception is not required (and neither is pleasure outlawed); what is required is openness to life and total self-giving when one takes one’s spouse in the marital embrace.  Whether a couple conceives or not is, you might say, up to God.

Your other reservations can be answered by the practice of NFP, which is an acceptable, natural method of spacing children when necessary.  (One that does not involve the use of a type 1 carcinogen, I might add.)

I don’t know if you are a big reader or not, but if you are able to pick up something by John Paul II on the Theology of the Body, it would be a worthwhile venture.

The problem, Earl, with relativism, is it

a. Doesn’t mean anything

and/or

b. Caves in upon itself via ‘reductio ad absurdum’

If there is no objective moral issue, there is no obligation to proclaim and defend the truth.  But if that were really possible, you wouldn’t care enough to post what you perceive as an absolute truth: That there is no moral absolute.  QED.

MommaTried: “I guess it would be fine to hear more about the true teachings of the Church from the pulpit, but I think most couples have heard the truth and don’t want to live it at least when they first get married.”

I agree with this wholeheartedly. As a thirty-something, married, non-contracepting mother of little children, I get tired of hearing people whine about what the Church hasn’t taught them. Almost everyone in America knows, and knew before HHS, that Catholics and Mormons don’t use birth control. I mean, seriously, the jokes are legion. Basic Catholics in the pews may not know why the Church opposes bc, but they know that it in fact does. There is something called invincible ignorance after all! Furthermore, I wish that my fellow church-goers would grow up! Are we little children that cannot pick up a catechism?! Maybe your priest is dodgy and has never mentioned NFP—one priest does not make the whole Church. Find out about your faith yourself!

I think there is a difference between knowing something, perhaps like being able to give an answer on a test, and knowing something in one’s heart.  That kind of knowledge comes from hearing - it is called faith.  And if one doesn’t hear something, one tends to not believe it, to essentially forget it.  This teaching, and so many others, are simply not heard from most pulpits.  So, yes, if you asked most people if the Church is against contraception, they would probably say ‘yes’.  But how serious;y should one take a teaching that is never mentioned, of which one is never reminded?  How seriously does this show the Church takes the teaching?  Do people know it is grave matter?  Any pastor can look out at his flock on a Sunday morning and know that the large majority of them do not believe or follow the Church’s teaching on this… and say nothing about it, ever. 

The Church is to teach in season and out, and there is a reason why Moses instructed that the Law be drilled into children, that it be written on doorposts, etc.  He knew the babble of the world and its idols could easily overwhelm the teaching of God.  Which it has certainly done in our own day with regard to contraception and many other teachings about which the caretakers of the flock remain silent.

And you should not minimize the fact that no one, really, virtually no one in the pew, knows WHY the Church is against it (probably including many priests).  Should one be expected to give obedience to something which has never been explained? 

We are all guilty in this matter, but those who are called as leaders of the Church must bear the primary responsibility for their utter silence.  (Or worse yet, their denial of the teaching - which ironically likely occurs more often than the preaching of the teaching itself.)

“But how seriously should one take a teaching that is never mentioned, of which one is never reminded?”

I think parish priests are too embarrassed to openly condemn contraception. I also think that they don’t bring it up because they don’t want to make church attendance any worse. People I know don’t take the Church’s teaching on contraception seriously.

“If there is no objective moral issue, there is no obligation to proclaim and defend the truth.”
Fine with me.  Who gets to proclaim the “truth”?  Why do Catholics claim that they are the only ones who know the “truth”?  Why is every religion so absolutely certain that theirs is the One True Religion?
“the Church considers marriage to be a SACRAMENT”
So what?  Why does your religion claim such silly things?
“When you have a problem or a question about the Church’s teaching, don’t be afraid to ask a good priest to explain it to you”
Don’t ask an atheist to tell you it’s all superstitious nonsense!

“Artificial contraception precludes giving oneself in totality.”
Who cares?  It’s just a silly objection by a silly religion!
“you wouldn’t care enough to post what you perceive as an absolute truth: That there is no moral absolute.”
Hilarious.  People who believe without evidence write the most ridiculous things.
“Find out about your faith yourself!”
And then come to the realization that it’s all very silly.  The fundamental purpose of religion is to control your actions and get your money.
“Do people know it is grave matter?”
I should hope not.  Supposedly 90+% of Catholics use contraception.