I have been blessed (and humbled) to have two vocations w/ my large family.  I know that God calls who He wills and my husband and I are amazed He chose our children (in spite of our parenting) ;-).  But, we know we also went through grilling by family and friends when we told them of our children’s desires.  Surely, we must have forced them to go as they were both ‘too pretty or good-looking’ to actually ‘want to be religious’.  Seriously - this was a comment from a sister-in-law.  Our radical life (large family, homeschooling, faithful, etc.) must have made them feel they HAD to go to please us.  Not so - they were called and they answered.  We love them and miss them.

They have told us of companions who have little or no contact with their families since they left.  It makes me cry and I wonder as well - why?  We say we only want our children to be happy but what if that happiness comes from serving Christ? 

As Fr. Longenecker has commented - I feel is it is woven within our contraceptive world.  From families who have restricted their children to one or two they can’t imagine one leaving.  In addition, religious life will be tainted for years by the recent scandals as parents fear their children being exposed to an atmosphere which allowed it to occur. 

But, parents also say ‘no’ because they don’t know to explain it at the family reunion, at the office and even to themselves.  How could God want one of theirs - they were such poor parents?  But, God calls our children not because of what we have done but because of what He will do.

The mentality is even wider than the actual use. My parents didn’t contracept, but I think they did buy into the “have-it-all” dominant culture and had a smaller family than they could have had. So when I announced my departure for the postulancy, I (being generally clueless) was surprised by how upset my mother got.
It takes an awful lot of faith to let go of the image we have formed of how life should be and let God change it entirely in an instant.

Ms. Fulwiler, I think that you and Fr. Longenecker have hit the nail on the head when speaking of the “contraceptive mentality.”  But the “contraceptive mentality” goes further:  it more obviously foregrounds the individual, and their autonomy, self-esteem, self-realization, and self-centeredness, all of which you touch upon in your piece.  Because we’ve come to believe that freedom is an individual endeavor and not communal (when of course, Catholicism and salvation history’s view of freedom teaches us otherwise).  In selling itself as a means to individual freedom, contraception also distorts it.

The Pill is known to cause yeast infections—the same fungus (I think) responsible for athlete’s foot. So, contraception and athlete’s foot may not be as unrelated as you think!

Helicopter Parents can’t fly in and around seminaries or monastaries - hence, their child (singular)can’t enter them. 

Now if you allowed mothers and their sons to enter in a buddy system….you’d have the next Military recruitment program beat by a couple years!

telling your parents you have a vocation when you don’t think they will be supportive sounds like the scariest thing. How do you then tell your parents you have a vocation?

As always, spot-on!  My children are still young (9, 7, 5, 2, in-utero) but I can’t imagine being sad to find out one of them is called to the religious life!  But, sadly, I have heard parents tell me that they don’t want their (only) child to enter religious life because they want grandchildren.  Our diocese Vocations Director said Mass at our parish last fall and gave a stellar homily in which he addressed specifically the parents about lending support when our children are questioning and perhaps hearing a call to the priesthood or to the religious life.  I wish I could remember the exact words, but it was very encouraging and I hope he keeps on preaching it whenever he gets the chance.  Thanks for this article, Jennifer.

We live in a very, very liberal diocese.  We have practicing homosexual priests here (I’ve heard they think it’s celibate when it’s not w/ a woman).  A friend just told me yesterday that she’s had several priests approach her son about a vocation and she’s totally freaked out by it.  She would LOVE him to be a priest, but certainly not in THIS diocese!  That could be another reason.

At Mass it suddenly dawned on me: God could be asking all of my sons to enter religious life. I had thought perhaps one of them might have a vocation. When this thought came to me, I became teary eyed, for I see the sacrifices of my two brothers-in-law in their vocations. I realized my selfishness as I would love to someday have grandchildren.
  At a convent recently I heard the priest say that of the 12 disciples, only three accompanied Jesus up the hill for the Transfiguration. He likened this to the call to religious life. It was a beautiful homily.

When my son was born, I offered him back to the Lord so that he might serve Him as a priest. I did this intending to have at least four more children. Well, the Lord has made me but my money where my mouth is. My son is an only child not by our design, but by the Lord’s. To this day I remind Him of my initial offer and fully hope that he takes me up on it. I am preparing my son to listen for the call. Hopefully he will say YES!!!!

I believe many parents do not know a priest or religious in a personal way.  They have no concept of how a priest, brother or sister lives.  It’s just “weird” to them, foreign, unknown and therefore frightening.  All the Catholics I know who have deep, abiding friendships with priests and/or religious would support a child’s religious vocation in a heartbeat.

www.kissingtheleper.com

@Elise, very much agreed that most parents have no concept of how a priest, brother, or sister lives.  Alas, it’s also true that many Catholics have no real concept of who—and what—a priest *is*, period.

I must be like the odd man out here.  I grew up in a contraceptive environment.  I grew up in a mixed religious home.  I was never baptised, but went to my mothers church, my aunts, my grandmothers and my father’s Catholic Church and went to his old alma mater Catholic School.  As a young woman trying to determine my life calling I KNEW I was called to be a mother and wanted a big family.  But I always said if I wasn’t meant to be a mommy, I’d be one very happy nun. It was something I considered a fact in my soul.  I have been blessed with two daughters, and encourage them to consider seriously vocations as they make their life plans.  My eldest wants to be a teacher and educator in Catholic schools. My youngest is too young to make those plans yet, but I encourage them both to seriously consider vocations.  My husband isn’t very hyped on the idea, growing up in a very different environment and wanting lots of grandchildren, but if they said that was what they wanted he would support them.  I just wish more people would see that what a soul is called to do by God is of an importance that cannot be shut down by our own wants.  It’s not our plan, it’s God’s. And if either of my daughters or any of my nephews or anyone I know says they are called to the service of God then they will have my support!

I’m a teenager and it really bothers me to see parents push their kids to have a vocation even when their kid doesn’t .  A vocation is a blessing from God that God chooses for us, we don’t choose vocations for ourself.  Marine, I think you should make sure your child feels like they have a vocation before you choose the priesthood for them.  If your kid has a vocation they will come to you and tell you. At my church I have seen a lot of people think they might have a vocation but they really need to think more about it. There is also a teen at my Church who has had his mom push him to have a vocation and I can see it and I find it sad.

When I consider the religious vocation nowadays I see it as a choice for the “cushier” option. What other individual would start out knowing you have a confirmed secure retirement, lifelong guaranteed health insurance & care, a roof over your head (usually air-conditioned) as well as clothing & food provided, people around who will be there to celebrate your milestones (birthday or vow day), free advanced education,....many now also get a monthly income of their own? Precious few in the private sector enjoy even some of those benefits. The contraception argument might make sense if we still lived in an agrarian society where income/security depended on having as many hands as possible to assist on the farm. Current day America, however, where millions are without a job or living on the streets or foreclosed on or without healthcare is not the climate to make a rational case for having as many mouths as possible to not-be-able-to-feed.

@JoanAnita: Personally I left a career path that I enjoyed would have probably given me a 6-figure salary before age 30; and I don’t regret it. I know several others in my comunity who had inheritences or jobs that provided them many more comforts of life that they get in the community.

I think you have a valid point, Mrs Fulwiler, but I think we also have to look at the vision of the Church. I had several non-catholic relatives and friends object to my vocation, because they object to the Catholic priesthood, but only one Catholic one object. He basically argued I shouldn’t go away when so many good priests were needed closer to home. The Church however is universal, not just one area.

As the mother of a large family with several children called to the religious life, I am often asked how this happened. I have wondered this myself, for like Rachel M. the Good Lord knows we made plenty of mistakes along the way.  I think that the religious life is no different in many ways than the single or married state if that is where God wishes us to be. Forming and modeling a relationship with Jesus Himself is the key. We felt each child had a unique call, and began to encourage each one to pray about different decisions including choice of school when each came up to high school age. Teaching the children how to have a personal sense of God’s daily plan gives Him the way in for long term vocational choices.  Perhaps that is the connection with the contraceptive mentality…those who decide that their way as parents is the best way.
Thankfully, in a large family that often HAS to trust the Lord, especially financially, the children often see their parents praying on their knees before Him, and regularly going to confession when shortcomings naturally come up. Modeling a life of faith however can be done by anyone, and gives the grace necessary when the child’s vocational choices are tough.
My experience of children in the religious life is that they are transplanted into another community, in a permanent way, which is no small sacrifice for all their family members, especially me as their mother. But my sense of wonderment at God’s individual, tailor-made plan for both me, my husband and my children helps a lot in accepting the sacrifice.
Like the above article says, sacrifice is scarcely a popular concept among most Americans today! Thankfully the Lord has gone before us in laying down His life and given us the graces to do the same…
Great article!

People expect to need some elderly care, and want a daughter to be around to do it.  If your one daughter is a religious, you lose that security.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want that.

I think it’s self-defeating to have a small (<5 kids) family.

By insisting on mandatory celibacy, families can’t trust our church leaders.  Who would want that for their son?  The Vatican continues to take Scripture verses out of context,  If St. Peter wanted to enter a seminary today, he would be refused because he was married.  Peter’s mother AND his wife would encourage him to join, and the seminary would reject him.

The Vatican and all the Catholic Apologists, like on Catholic Answers, distort Scripture verses out of context, to fit their celibate agenda.  Matthew 19 has NOTHING to do with men in ordained ministry.  Anyone with half a brain would know that - and only those with agendas would use that as an ideal verse to back up the ungodly practice.

Priests, bishops and even popes should be able to marry at any time in their lives.  Universal Church Tradition allows for a married clergy too - bishops and popes included.

Maybe when our church leaders begin to respect the Bible verses in context about the marital status of priests, families will encourage their SONS to become ordained.  There is no basis for women priests, either in universal Church Tradition and it is AGAINST what we know in Scripture.  The role for women in the church is as priest’s wives.

“What do you think is behind so many parents’ reluctance for their children to follow the call to religious life?” I think pride is the main factor here. As parents we think our children our OURS, when in fact they belong to God first and foremost. And they are here to do His will, not to make us happy. Our children will ONLY be happy when they are following the path God has set our for them, and if that path encompasses a priestly and religious vocation then we need to learn to let them go, because if they are being called then this is what will fulfill them the most. It is a true gift to have a son or daughter called to serve God in a priestly and religious vocation. They are much closer to Him and can be greatly happy in this life, and in the next.

There is this mistaken idea, mentioned above, that those that cannot marry will not be happy. This is just a shame that people believe this. In reality, those that say YES to God and follow the call to the priestly and religious life are blessed with incredible love and joy, surpassing that which one could ever find on earth. It is a supernatural joy, one that comes direct from God. I have seen it in others, and it is real. And it is what makes these priests and religious so happy and willing to serve.

A Note to Parents
“Parents’ driving desire for their children is to lead happy, fulfilled lives. When a son begins discerning the call to priesthood, it can be a confusing and uncertain time for both him and his parents. The choice is certainly counter-cultural, and just seems odd, especially when we consider today’s media as representing financial wealth and sexual conquest as the dominant measuring sticks of success for a man.
More importantly, parents know the joys they receive from a loving spouse and raising children and want their own children to experience those joys as well. It is hard to imagine living a life without these experiences because of a career choice. However, the priesthood cannot authentically be presented as just another “career option” because it is not. The priesthood is a call to a life radically opposed to many of the ideals held by secular culture where chastity, obedience and detachment from money are ridiculed and mocked. The priest, though, by his life, proclaims to the world that something far greater than the rewards of today awaits us. In the end, the life to come is worth more than anything in this world.

Pope Benedict challenges us saying: “The pastoral care of vocations needs to involve the entire Christian community in every area of its life. Obviously, this pastoral work on all levels also includes exploring the matter with families, which are often indifferent or even opposed to the idea of a priestly vocation. Families should generously embrace the gift of life and bring up their children to be open to doing God’s will. In a word, they must have the courage to set before young people the radical decision to follow Christ, showing them how deeply rewarding it is (Sacramentum Caritatis, 24)”

Didn’t mean to ruffle the feathers of the anonymous seminarian who felt he gave up a potential 6 figure salary by age 30 to chose a brother’s vocation. Everyone in their 20s thinks they have it made but somehow in the 30s & beyond reality sets in and that great paying job goes to India without you or you find that a Madoff made-off with your savings. I was addressing the context of vocation in a contraceptive minded world &, while I applaud your career choice, you did really choose to abandon the rat race & got lifetime security (shelter, food, insurance,etc). I don’t begrudge that to anyone, just pointing out that it’s hardly the same as the choice of the rich young man in scripture.

Contraception is definitely a huge source of the problem.  My parents contracepted and they were very against any profession for my brother and me that did not require a professional degree.  We were not practicing catholics when I was a teen so I really never even knew what a vocation was but, in a similar way, anytime I mentioned that I might be interested in becoming something other than a doctor, lawyer, etc.  it was extremely frowned upon.  They didn’t even want me to get a regular job like waitressing when I was in college because it was somehow “beneath” me.  Sure, those kind of jobs were ok for other people’s kids but not for their amazing kids.  Contraception is selfish and leads people to a very narcissistic view of their children.  My parents saw us and still see us to a large degree as a reflection of their own wonderfulness not a reflection of God’s and, therefore, anything that doesn’t fit in with their own narcissistic plans for what our life should look like is discouraged.

JoanAnita: I did not want to create a conflict either, my point was simply that the vocation is not the “path of comfort” for most. My personal story was just a clear example of this. I suspect that if any young man showed up to my community with a calculation that it was the route to free food, shelter and insurance, he would either be rejected in the application process or leave very quick during the formation. As for guaranteed food and shelter, I don’t think I have anything more than welfare, medicade and social security, or its equivalent in most western democracies (one could argue that this may not be there in 40 years but the same could be said for any religious community as well). If you calculate the cost of feeding and maintaining our house, I think we could cover it and have some to spare if everyone received welfare (obviously we don’t).
If you want the choice of the young man in scripture, joins something like the Franciscans of Primitive Observance (I think the name is right) as they don’t keep any food or money overnight in the house, sleep on a wood desk, etc. Thant seems like a great way to live religious life but it is obviously not my calling as I am commenting to an article online.
I was recently reading a book of priestly biographies and one priest, who was a vocation director, said that there are two type of people attracted to the priesthood: those attracted by the challenge and those attracted by the comfort; his job was to weed out the second group. Even though there may be some comforts assocated with it, anyone who enters the priesthood or religious life for comfort will NOT be a good religious or priest.

@ religious brother and a seminarian:  good for that vocations director.  Fr. Robert Barron has mentioned something similar about good priestly formation:  that we should point out that the priesthood is mentally, intellectually, and emotionally challenging.  The priest is meant to be a doctor of souls.  It is a noble calling.

____________

@ Nora:  I understand your concern, and I agree—no parent should force their kids into religious life;  that’s between God and the ones whom He calls.  That said, I think your comments lean a bit cynical.  One can have a genuine vocation, but they can become defective through neglect.  Like when a priest neglects his prayer life and/or begins to see his priesthood as more about him than it is about Christ. 
Priests and religious, after all, are human;  while consecrated to God, they are still sinners.  They are not spiritual athletes.  They, like us, need God’s help to carry out their vocations, and I think we ought to remember that more clearly.  In reading about the priesthood in an effort to better understand it, I remember one vocations director telling seminarians the following:  “fall in love with the Lord, and it will change everything.  Fall out of love with the Lord, and it will change everything.  I saw in Marnie’s comment a lot of enthusiasm for the priesthood, certainly, but I didn’t necessarily see it as forcing (and therefore not frightening as such). 
Certainly, as many a reader here has pointed out, Catholic parents should entertain the possibility that God may well call their children to a vocation as priests or religious.  It’s a discussion on parenthood and childhood in general that we ought to be having, given that it’s far too easy for parents also to expect children to be an extension of themselves.

_____________

@ Cradle Catholic:  you may or may not know this, but the Eastern Church does have married priests.  So the Catholic Church already has married priests.  Furthermore, the Latin Rite also has married clergy:  permanent deacons.  Celibacy is a discipline that developed culturally in the Latin Rite;  it is not a doctrine.  That said, in the Eastern Rite, a man must be married before being ordained, and not afterward.  Also, married men cannot be bishops.  Both the Eastern and Western Rites nonetheless do recognize that celibacy is a theological matter, based not only on Matt 9:12, but also 1 Cor 7:7 and Lk. 20: 34-36.  It’s an eschatological sign of the Kingdom to come.  As for the “two brain cells to rub together” comment, therefore, need you be condescending?
Furthermore, being married is a far more difficult life for a priest than you might think:  they have to balance both the priesthood and their families, and they may not neglect their families.  Some, like Fr. Stephen Wang, a Catholic priest in Britain, has pointed out that if he had a choice, he’d still choose celibacy, because he finds it liberating. 
Also, in general, why should it seem so “strange” or even deficient that some people, religious or not, are called to a single life?  While I’m not knocking the vocation of marriage in the slightest, it perplexes me that there nonetheless appears to be this… consensus in the larger culture that the only way for a person to be happy and fulfilled is to be married.

Women’s religious orders changed drastically during the time of the sexual revolution (Presidents vs Mother Superiors, no habit, etc.) and my parents did not want my sisters or I to be a part of this “new way” of thinking.  I believe if we had told our parents that we truly felt “called”, they would have helped us to find an appropriate Order - but it would not have been anywhere close to home. 

For my daughters, I pull up pages on the internet and grab fliers to teach them about the vocation, even though they weekly visit their great-aunt at a convent.  The only way I would be happy with any of my daughter entering their aunt’s Order is if they went in quite rebellious with the intent to returning the Order to its original ways.

To Wsquared -

The Eastern churches, while accepting married men to the priesthood, do not accept married men as bishops.  I know a woman from the Middle East who, when she was about 16, had a single priest age 30 or so, hit on her.  He tried to kiss her, and she resisted his attempt.  He did not push it.  But now, the man is still single: and he’s a bishop.

Emotionally, unless a man has a TRUE calling to celibacy, and CHOOSES not to marry, but he COULD marry whenever he wanted to, celibacy is a recipe for disaster.  St. Peter Damian warned the pope in his day about clergy sexually abusing their “spiritual children”, and many of the children were really under-age: boys and teenage males.  There was a lot of homosexuality in the clergy, even then.  Just like today - St. Peter Damian’s pope ignored him. 

Any clergyman ought to be able to marry at any time in his life.  Whether a priest, a bishop or a pope.  It is unhealthy to have a bishop acting like a priest’s daddy, someone he has to ‘obey’ in lieu of God Himself.  It is taking power and control to the point of the absurd, and it is not obedient to God.  As a result, we have had nothing but trouble in our church.

God does not reward DISOBEDIENCE.  There is a penalty for all of us to pay, for not following the guidelines set out in Scripture.  MEN in ordained ministry are ideally married, and with children.  Most of the priests we have right now wouldn’t even make good church “elders”.  Look at the lack of wisdom they have shown?

And they point fingers at everyone else, when the mess they caused is brought to light:  “It’s the psychologists fault! We believed them, when they told us pedophiles can be cured!”

The BEST thing that can happen for these bad managers is for everything to get swept under the carpet again, and pew people continue to be sexually abused - by clergymen that just confess their “lapses” to one another - after all, those that live in glass houses can’t throw stones, and what St. Peter Damian wrote about in the Middle Ages just continues.

OR - we pew people that pay the bills can wise up, and say, “Hey - it’s time to do this God’s Way.  1Timothy 3:1-5, Titus Chapter 1, and 1Corinthians 9:5.  End mandatory celibacy now” and make the church trustworthy, as it was in the days of St. Peter and St. Paul.  There will never be trust without it.

All the “We’re sorry’s!” from bishops of the world just doesn’t cut it anymore for THINKING Catholics.  Rome is wrong.  And every church in union with Rome, is wrong about the qualifications for clergymen.  The Bible = read IN CONTEXT and IN FULL, is correct.  End mandated celibacy.

I wonder how many children the Middle Eastern bishop fathered, outside of marriage.  Since he must be single to be a bishop - and he could not be married AFTER he was ordained.  He too, must have several “Lapses”.

All you women out there reading this- if your husband came home every 3 years and said, “Honey, I had another lapse again with a woman today.  You don’t mind, do you?”  What would you say?

NO SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE FOR ANYONE.  Priests included.

Cradle Catholic,

They can be married if they wish, they must either do so before accepting ordination, or they may depart from the clerical state to be married.

There is no other option, and that is backed by the tradition of the entire Church, all in union with Rome, as well as all the Eastern Orthodox in union with Constantinople and Moscow, and even the Oriental Orthodox hold to such a view.

If a man is not ready and willing to be celibate, he should not make such a promise, for he can not be realed from it without being released from the others he makes at the same time.

To smf -  Why does a man have to be celibate, in view of qualifications outlined in Paul’s Pastoral Letters to Timothy & Titus, and Paul’s comment in 1Corinthians 9:5?  By WHOSE authority must our clergy be celibate?—Please read this whole post…..

The Holy Spirit taught St. Paul directly, in the desert, about ALL he needed to know about the Christian faith.  Do you not think SOMEWHERE in Scripture, either in one of Paul’s 13 letters to the Churches, or in James’ letter - the first bishop of Jerusalem - or in 1st or 2nd Peter, ONE OF THEM would have mentioned something IN CONTEXT about the qualifications for men in ordained ministry, IF celibacy was of such utmost importance?

Why does it only speak of married men, “For if a man cannot manage his own family with dignity, how can he take care of the church of God?”
Did St. Paul get that wrong?  Was Paul such a second-rate teacher that his writings deserve to be so overlooked by Rome?

And why the difference in the qualifications between Rome and the Eastern churches?  If it’s ONE Body of Christ, ONE Church, why are they not precisely the same?  Was the Holy Spirit telling different people different things?  Did the Holy Spirit NOT teach Paul directly, as Paul wrote to the Galations?  I’m confused.  This does not make sense. 

NOTE:
Please do not answer me back with volumes of catechism.  I already know the Matthew 19 verse the church uses to defend celibacy.  It’s drivel.  Frankly, it makes an equally good case for castration for priests upon ordination, and that may work better than trusting these men to not have lapses.  Please do not post acres of pages from Popes, Church Fathers, and other dead saints that had an opinion.

This is what I’m after:
I ask you only for Scripture verses that apply to the qualifications for those in ordained ministry.  That would be AUTHORITATIVE, and should be consistent for the whole Body of Christ, the Church.

All parents want to have grandchildren, but it seems to me that’s not the main reason. Many religious don’t exactly gleam with happiness, they are bitter, strict and judging. So parents are afraid their children will become the same, if they enter.
I know a couple, life-long atheists, their both daughters became cloistered nuns. But these girls are very happy in their convent, so the parents gladly accepted their vocation. Although they don’t understand that kind of life, they see very well that their daughters are full of joy.

Jennifer, I think you have hit on a reason, but not the only reason.  There’s also what someone mentioned above: many dioceses have a poor track record of homosexual behavior & abuse in seminaries. There’s also the fact that you will probably see very little of your children, especially if they have to travel far away to find a good order or diocese (this could happen with another vocation as well, admittedly.)  There’s giving up the possibility of grandchildren.  There’s the lack of familiarity with what religious life entails (I am a cradle Catholic and I know of no vocations in my extended family.  So I have no idea what that kind of life really looks like.)  There’s the fact that you will have likely sunk thousands and thousands of dollars into their education, only to find out that they probably don’t need it, and now they won’t be supporting you in your old age.  There’s the fact that a diocesan priest around here has a very demanding life, with almost no support from the bishop or his brother priests.  Frankly, what gives me the most pause is the thought that I might only get to see my child once every 3 or 4 years, on his superior’s say-so.  Unfortunately, as your children get older, and you experience more of the church, you may see more reasons.

I think the TOP reason why there are not many parents encouraging vocations is the Roman Catholic Church, with all its pious TALK is simply not trustworthy.  I’d want my son to be a used car salesman instead of a becoming a priest.  At least he could get out of the salesman business easily, IF he saw co-workers not acting in a trustworthy fashion.  In the priesthood, IMAGE is everything.  He would be expected to keep quiet, keeping the other cleric’s secrets, even if their actions were CRIMINAL.  There’s a monsignor in Pennsylvania that’s been CHARGED - and frankly, it would be wonderful if he’s only the first to pay a price for the secrecy and lack of accountability, protecting criminals all done in God’s Name.  What mother would want her son to be a part of that corrupt system?

Cradle Catholic,

You clearly have a rather un-Catholic view of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.  Basically what you are demanding is that the Church, and its supporters, prove itself to you under terms and conditions you dictate (and after you have already reached your conclusion).

I will spare you the “drivel” of the Word as revealed in the Scripture and Tradition, since clearly you have already pre-judged the matter.

You may have your standard:
Cunas Cathalica locuta est, causa finita est.

I will stick with:
Roma locuta est, causa finita est.

p.s.
Actually, all of the Church is in unity on the matter as it pertains to the theology, spirituality, doctrine, and dogma.  However, each of the 23 Catholic Churches has its own particular disciplinary, canonical, and ritual distinctions, and the way clerical celibacy and continence are addressed differs somewhat from Church to Church, with the Latin Church having as one of its distinctive practices a general norm of reserving the priesthood for single, celibate men.

smf- I don’t read Latin so I don’t understand what you wrote.  But I believe only God does not make mistakes, people do - such as Peter, when he was corrected by Paul in the Council of Jerusalem.  Since the Bible is accepted as the Holy Spirit-breathed Word of God, and is consistent in matters of what we need to know regarding Church structure,
I’ll stick with the Holy Word of God, and not rely on people’s opinions, even if they are the official representatives of 23 Catholic churches.  There is but ONE Body of Christ.  Not 23.

As for all the church being in unity regarding doctrine - if you mean the Creed, you might be correct.  All Christians that can say the Creed would indeed be in unity.

But I’d say Billy Graham is most definitely IN the Body of Christ, although he is not Roman Catholic, or in any of the 23 other churches that are in union with Rome.  Yet he and others like him would disagree with the dogma that keeps growing about Mary.  So doctrine that comes from the Deposit of Faith left by the apostles?  Yes.  But dogma - no.

Perhaps all the churches that are in union with Rome would be in agreement about everything.  Doctrine and dogma.  But not all the people that are in the Body of Christ.  It is most important to be IN CHRIST.  It’s not as important to be in church, even those churches in union with Rome.  Look at our radical left-wing politicians that go to Mass each Sunday, and call themselves Catholic.  Look at their fruit.  Look at Billy Graham’s life. There is a difference.

All of us must be concerned with matters of Eternal Value, that outlast our short time here.  BIBLE: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.

Cradle Catholic,

Google Translate can usually give at least a rough idea of Latin to English translations, and there are other services.  Plenty of Latin dictionaries are on-lines these days.  “Roma locuta est” means, more or less, “Rome has spoken”, and “causa finita est” would be “the cause is finished”  The origins of it go back many centuries to when various bishops would be arguing over things and at some point Rome intervened to stop the argument by settling the question.

The other version I just substituted a Latin version of a cradle Catholic (in doing so I arbitrarily went the feminine form, because that kept the Latin nearer to the other version since Roma is also a feminine form).

For my part I make no judgement as to who is and is not in the Mystical Body of Christ.  All who are validly Baptised are in some sense joined to the Church, even if imperfectly.

Actually there are many who disagree even about the most basic and fundamental matters of doctrine.  The Church herself is of one mind on doctrine, but those who may be imperfectly joined to her are of such varying beliefs as to hardly constitute believers in the same faith at all.

As for the Bible, consider just how it came to be written and handed on.

Like all of salvation it is and was a work carried out by Christ through His Church.

The standard for determining the canon of Scripture was essentially a test of the fitness of a book to be read at the Liturgy.  It may well be there are other books of sound doctrine that didn’t make the cut, or others of literary value but spiritually empty, but the Church, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, found these books, and these only, to be fitting for liturgical use for the universal Church.

As to the one Church and multiple Churches, there is only one Holy Catholic and Apostilic Church, the Bride of Christ, the earthly body of which He is the head.  However, there are at least 23 Churches each with its own history, liturgical tradition, etc.  Then each diocese constitutes in a sense a particular church as well, having all the basic essential elements of the universal Church on a local level.

smf - A priest taught a very large group of people that the canon of Scripture was authorized only after it was known that the letters, books had been read in EVERY single church back then: such as in Galatia, Ephesus, Jerusalem, etc.  If it was read in 3 out of 4 churches, it did NOT make the cut.

So while the Bible was indeed assembled by men, it was 100% under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  God watches over His Word.  It is written, “All things will pass away, but my word will never pass away.”
The Vatican?  Just like the Temple in Jerusalem, it will one day be gone.  “Obey God, not men.”

Jesus is indeed the Head of the Church, and He speaks in His word.  All our church leaders make tooooo many apologies, for my comfort.  Every day, there’s a new reason not to trust them.  Turn ones child over to them?  No way.

Besides, with it being an all-male environment, something we know is not good - results in 80 year old males with the emotional maturity of 10 year olds (with power).  It’s not good.  Thanks for the tip about how to translate Latin.  I did not know that.

I have two grade school age kids not because I contracept but that’s all I can have.  Although I would love to have one of them go into religious life I will be honest and say I don’t want both to.  I don’t want to be left alone in my old age.  I think that is reasonable.  Even St. Therese the Little Flower’s sister Celine stayed back with her father to take care of him until he died before she joined her other 3 sisters in religious life.  I do think children have a responsibility toward their parents; it’s one of the 10 Commandments.  And yes, I also want grandchildren.  When you have a larger family it’s no big deal for a couple to become a priest or sister.  But when you have only one or two it’s definitely dicier.  I don’t really buy the argument about contraception because the types of parents who contracept are not the ones producing vocations anyway.  The pool of possible vocations is from the conservative and devout families who don’t contracept.  If they have a lot of kids they will encourage vocations and if they don’t, like me, they probably won’t.  I don’t think that’s unreasonable to want grandchildren (more children in the world is a GOOD thing) or want the support of at least one child in their old age (also a GOOD thing).

I believe a lot of the vocational crisis is due to poor catechizing (teaching the contraceptive mentality is OK,etc.) and lack of “real relationships” of parish priests with youth and families. The “Cafeteria Catholic syndrome” of Catholic school teachers is another influence that is troubling and unprofessional. Both of these lead to confusion in the domestic Catholic church, the family. People are all upset about the priest abuse crisis, and rightly so. However, 40 years of cowardly teaching of the faith has lead to a crisis in the whole Church body. When my children were in Catholic school, the priest was too busy to support kids on the playground or sports games.They rarely if ever visited classrooms, and left much, if not all, of the teaching of the Sacraments up to lay ministers. Priests were absent. Kids did not even know what a priest did except Mass. The priest shortage was the excuse. This was not a good excuse to me; I am stretched thin too, and I have to re-prioritize toward my family every once in a while too. Priests need to be around their flock like parents need to be available to kids. It is their job. Their witness is what inspires people to think about vocations. Our institutions should strive to evangelize everyone. As a parent, it is hard to encourage children to give their lives to the Church if the Church (parish life)is not supportive of the family. As a mother, who has been very active in the Church, I know that Her institutions look at me for time, talent, and treasure. Never mind that I might need spiritual support beyond Mass or communal Penance services! Oh, and a certificate of recognition is not what a volunteer values. It is honest and prayerful relationships with school leaders, teachers, etc. A renewal of focus on the family is needed in parishes and Catholic schools across the US and Europe.Service to one another must be cultivated (because this is love of God), not just in the pews, but in the administrations of parishes and schools. Because there is little difference in culture in Catholic schools, or relationships in parish life than there are in the outside secular world, Catholic school and parish life have become less desirable. To many young people, it is just an option of many. Parishes and schools should be places of hope, spiritual nurturing, and strong relationships. We should not be measuring the temperature in the secular world and be satisfied that we are keeping up to date with it. On the contrary, we are the thermostat! There is also a lot of emphasis on social justice, however it is not possible to feed the poor with out people to pass out the baskets. No one in church,no money in the baskets, or improved salaries or scholarships for poor kids. No people in church, no vocations. We must evangelize and witness and preists and nuns, however few of them need to be leaders in this to inspire others to want this job (yes WE are a priesthood, and I admit most priests are great/trying at least, I know).  Whenever I point out this deficiency, Church leaders often say they are doing the best they can or negate my observations with examples (these do exist of course). But look at the overall results: priest shortages,no nuns,school and parish closings. Church administrators are afraid of HOPE (the will that what is good,can happen). Status quo is good. It is a lot of work to listen to God or trust that the Holy Spirit is working in the parishioner with the novel idea.It is humiliating to admit a parishioner or parent is on to something and help them verses laying it back in their lap and creating barriers.Parish and schools need to be places of hope and evangelization that help parents inspire their kids to serve the Church. St. Joseph did not wait to be sure the “time was right” (he had $,a job lined up). We can not tarry though.

To Michele Grantham-  You wrote, “When my children were in Catholic school, the priest was too busy to support kids on the playground or sports games.  They rarely if ever visited classrooms, and left much, if not all, of the teaching of the Sacraments up to lay ministers. Priests were absent. Kids did not even know what a priest did except Mass.”

Cradle’s reply:
That’s true from my experience even today.  Priests job description is “Sacrament Dispenser”.  The irony is that most teaching is still done by women even now, in catechetical capacities.  Women are even Parish Administrators now (in the past, they were called “pastors”).

That is not a veiled argument for women priests, by the way.  Scripture and Tradition would prevent women from being ordained priests and from having authority over men.

With that said, I know elderly nuns, that gave their whole lives teaching us when we were young, even teaching THE PRIESTS AND BISHOPS OF TODAY, & they’re left on their own, to fend for themselves.  I read a newspaper article about a 90+ year old nun, living in a walk-up fixer upper, with a group of other nuns as old as she was, a few years ago.  WHO in their right mind would want THAT for their child?

Bishops take good care of themselves, with retirement packages; even priests that HAVE MOLESTED CHILDREN, can have cushy lives, in terms of diocesan protection, depending on what diocese they are in.  But nuns?
Each left on her own, for the most part.  Forgotten, with no thanks.

It is MEN that are supposed to TEACH and PREACH the Word of God.  But instead, we have males (many of them 80 years old chronologically, but emotionally, about 16 years old = “man-boys”).  These are not the kind of MEN that St. Paul described, when he outlined the qualifications for MEN in ordained ministry to Timothy and to Titus.  We CAN have those godly MEN, if we wanted to.  But the existing church structure results in man-boys and Sacrament Dispensers that do busy-work, and that shuts the average pew person out.

They like to use the word “apostolic succession”, but it’s mostly just pretty words.  The apostles, in Acts of the Apostles, had it right.  The Church was healthy then.  Until the Vatican decides to structure our church like they did, we will continue to have man-boys, that are too busy being Sacrament Dispeners to deal with us pew people.

And with the lack of trust that’s resulted from some priests and MOST bishops ABUSING their power and status, it’s GOOD that priests are staying away from children.  If they were smart, they’d stay away from women too.  The 22-45% of the priests that have homosexual inclinations, should stay away from men too.  Let clergy just stay on the altar - and dispense Sacraments, safely away from us pew people, the Body of Christ.

After all, the clergy has to learn how to say the ever-changing words to the liturgy again this year.  Our Church is like one LONG game of Simon Says.  And Jesus is way out of the picture, having turned over the keys to Peter, and the LONG line of successors that have changed the church.

I have read many of these posts that say small families discourage parents from pushing their children toward vocations.  I have 2 children, a son, 11 and a daughter 8.  I am only one of two in a small family. 

I once thought I was being called and my parents encouraged me to find my direction.  If I thought one of my children was being called I would be as open minded as I could. 

That being said, several good friends are priests and I have seen the loneliness they live with.  Their friends, siblings, cousins go home to families and children, while they go home to an empty rectory, not even really a “home.”  I have been involved enough in my church that I have known many older priest with fairly severe alcohol problems.  The drunken Irish priest is a cliche for a reason. 

I will support my children with whatever calling God sends them, religious or secular, but I know that a religious calling can be very difficult.

I think parents support whatever vocation they view as “best”. Even though I feel called to marriage, my dad reallyrearealllrealerayelasyraelryaREALLY wants me to be a nun. Even when I bring home a lovely Catholic man willing to COURT, my dad smiles wryly like “oh, cute… you should be a nun”.

I think you (and Fr. Longenecker) raise good points.  I would also say that parents are afraid their girls won’t be happy as nuns because they themselves have never seen the attraction, not having that vocation.  But I’ve known a LOT of nuns, and friends who have entered religious life, and their most distinguishing characteristic is how happy and fulfilled they are.  They think they’re the lucky ones and feel sorry for those who aren’t called.  As for me, I entered a convent, found it very hard, and was advised by the mother superior and by my spiritual director that my unhappiness was probably a sign that I wasn’t called to that life.  Before too long I agreed with them and left.  I think parents are afraid their daughters will get pressured and trapped into an unfulfilling life, but in my experience religious orders aren’t the least bit interested in keeping women who aren’t called by God and are just moping about the convent.

I believe the white elephant in the room here is the infiltration by homosexuals into diocesan seminaries.  Few lay people wish to discuss it… but I know many men who have left the seminary… and a few who have even left the Roman Rite Church because of this reality.

Many Catholics are in deep denial about this problem.  I would argue than many a bishop is in denial also… wishing to substitute the word “pedophilia” when a different word is more accurate and true to the statistics. 

The feminization of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by way of the abrupt liturgical changes of the 60’s have turned many men off to the Church.

Having said all that… is my way of saying that many good Catholics would never ever encourage their kid to attend a diocesan seminary (self included).

These are painful realities… but if we are going to solve the problem then we need to restore a spirit of sacrifice in the Church.  We can do that by 1.) Getting mom off of contraception and decrying same from the pulpit, 2.) Gently, but forcefully (from the pulpit) rejecting the sin of homosexual acts. 3.) Begin enforcing canon 915, 4.) Get the women off the altar and stop the “gender bending” at Mass. 5.) Restore the sense of masculinity and femininity at the Mass.

With Benedict XVI, we live in a brief time similar to the period right after Stalin died!  By this, I mean that we must be heroic in our courage.  We must charitably… but diligently roll back the “hermeneutic of rupture” and start introducing sacred music which now goes beyond the good ol Adoremus Hymnal (excellent though it was… it is only a baby step).

Benedict’s ‘reform of the reform’ suffers only one thing: political correctness at the expense of actually finally implementing the intent of Vatican II.  Chant must have PRONCIPAL place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  Save the Mass, Save the World.  You want more vocations… let’s move beyond the so called ordinary from every Sunday!  Let’s televise more Missa Cantata so that people don’t have to search for them on the internet.  I recall a little Franciscan nun who was never concerned about ratings or about upsetting her audience.  She gave us what we needed… not always what we wanted.

Ave Maria!

Bob

@Cradle Catholic:

If you believe what you say, you need to form your mind to the Church as you have put yourself in serious spiritual danger in not having the faith handed down to the Apostles. Jesus did say he would protect the Church, this includes her Dogmas which you are required to believe.

Bob,

I think you make some valid points, but I can’t agree entirely with what you say. Perhaps homosexuals in the seminaries is only a local modern reality that you are accustomed too, or are used to hearing about it from people who are of the age when it was more common. 

I have recently visited a seminary and from everything I saw and heard there, and have heard in other parts of my diocese, homosexual seminarians aren’t a significant part of seminary life anymore. The vocations directors are making it clear that homosexuals will not be excepted and all applicants will be expected to go through psychiatric testing and answer interview questions to help enforce this rule. 

If a man lies about his orientation, I am sure he would be immediately turned in if he acted upon it.

I am a teenager who is currently attending a community college and considering the seminary myself. I wouldn’t ever discourage my son, if I choose to marry and end up having one, from entering the seminary over the possibly homosexual environment. From what I have seen and heard, at least in my area that is no longer a serious problem because the seminary directors and church leaders have been addressing the problem.

Plus, the local college has a plenty of homosexual culture openly promulgated through the LGBT clubs anyhow. My son wouldn’t be able to hide from this reality forever. One must learn to understand it as best one can through the teachings of the church and respond in truly Christian manner.

Sincerely,
Paul

I am currently discerning a vocation to the religious life.

If someone truly has a vocation nothing on earth can keep them away.  As much as I tried to run away. I simply could not.

A religious vocation is like joining the army, you don’t know what the outcome will be ahead of time. People go in with a list, and then end up blaming everybody except themselves when things don’t go their way.

There are many people who, had everything, but still wanted more from life. It’s not fair to them, that they down their entire lives, when others are half-committed.

There is also a generation missing, since the convents I have been too, either have old or very young people.

As for the statements about Peter, it was Peter who told Jesus this,

Luke 8: 28-29

“Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life.”

A religious vocation takes the same amount of commitment and work as a marriage.

Cradle,

A vocation is not in your hands. Stop being so arrogant.

Bob,

Paul is right, if you don’t mind me asking, how old are you?  Because there is a generation missing. I think the contraceptive mentality sums it up. That and people not being able to pay off their student loans, and a culture that’s into the easy life.

It’s also true that those entering priesthood or religious life today, have to deal with people holding them guilty until proven innocent, because of what other people did.

But, God still continues to call.

People have rights to choose their religious belief cause we have different faith in god.

http://www.elderlychoice.com/

The Catholic parent’s pain at “giving up” their child to the religious life is mirrored in the experience of the Evangelical parent of the child who leaves home to be a foreign missionary.  It’s overwhelmingly common for both sets of parents to feel abandoned by their kids and to think they are no longer needed or even being rejected. But what I discovered as I made the transition to move to Africa was that I needed my family more than ever to support me in the lonely choice to move to a difficult country.  It hit me that if I was becoming a priest or a nun from a Catholic family (I am Catholic but my family is Protestant), surely they would know that I needed them to continue to offer moral support, come to events, receive me back for vacations from seminary, etc. I felt totally unmoored and homeless and it was a terrible grief.  It is truly a sad thing for a seminarian or a missionary to not have a supportive family situation to return to on a holiday.  My parish was just baffled and aghast as I struggled through my preparations and the hard emotions alone. “WHERE IS YOUR FAMILY, for gosh sakes?!” seemed to be the underlying current through every conversation. They meant it to be compassionate, but for me it felt humiliating. I felt the shame of an orphan.

For parents to think they are being rejected or abandoned by their son or daughter following God’s call, this reaction is really rather selfish.  There is no rejection. The parents have raised their children to make bold choices, and they are DOING it. And in fact, that son or daughter needs the parents and family even more. The longing increases for a friendship-relationship to grow, through the enrichment of the experiences of the vocation and the honor the son or daughter desires bring upon a family.  For Catholic and Evangelical families who understand this, I applaud you - your children are very, very blessed, and they will “rise up and call you blessed” as well.

Luckily, both my sons grew up to marry and have families.  I would not have wanted them to be priests or brothers.  Sorry, but that’s how I really feel about it.  There is too much corruption in the Catholic faith and I would not have wanted them to become victims of it.

Commitment is up to individuals. There is no corruption in the faith once delivered to the saints, only in human beings.

The ideas above are cited opinions, not researched evidence.
Perhaps vocations are in decline because the Church’s moral legitimacy is in question due to so many scandals (AIDS epidemic, sexual abuse, financial scandals, supressed history of anti-semitism, etc.)Perhaps it’s due to parents being more willing to talk about the positive aspects of sex, find the Church’s stance on virginity, martyrdom and redemptive suffering to be cruel, disgusting and morally reprobate. Perhaps its also due to the inclusion of information in psychology & sociology courses about totalistic environments, how they destroy the person to recreate them in a founder or leader’s image (something the monestaries, convents & seminaries will openly ADMIT they do)—and maybe our youth today have a little more knowledge and self respect and won’t consent to such treatment. The institutional Chruch should expect indiference and outright resistence to recruitment. Parents who have the guts to stand up to authority, cultural pressures and their own insecurities and speak up to defend the lives of their children, I applaud you!

Lauren,

You are ignorant and don’t have a clue.

Lauren:

The AIDS epidemic is something which has attacked a culture that no longer believes in God or in the dignity of man and woman and the transcendent beauty of married love.  The civilization which does not believe brought us AIDS… not the Church.  Moreover… a condom is not the answer to every problem… especially when a condom offers minimal protection and creates a false sense of security.  It would be a poor doctor who puts a band-aid on a cancer but who fails to mention the root of the cancer.  The cancer in our declining civilization is selfishness!

The so called “sexual abuse crisis” in the Church was never about pedophilia… but rather was about predatory homosexuality and the relaxing of moral standards for seminary candidates. It is the nasty result of loss of a sense of the true mission of the Church on the part of her own leaders who sought to appease people such as your self who have not the slightest clue (no offense intended here) about what the Church actually teaches.  In other words, the more the Church leadership concerns themselves with not offending people such as you… the more she dilutes her own mission.  She does you no favors in the long run either since you end up not even knowing who or what Christ is and who and what His Church is. 

Psychology, sociology and any of the other academic tools used to help understand the human person are just that: TOOLS.  But if a person believes that self sacrifice, imitation of Christ, duty, honor, and purity of intent are values to be spurned then that person begins to closely resemble the “enlightened souls” who helped form and run the Third Reich.  Read any of the words of the men who surrounded Hitler and you will find that they all shared your sentiments.  The too found the Church’s stance on virginity, martyrdom and redemptive suffering to be cruel, disgusting and morally reprobate.

To some of the other commenters I wish to point out that homosexuality is STILL alive and well in many diocesan seminaries and that scandals will continue to break forth.  For it is the iconography of the so called new mass as well as the lousy theology in the seminaries which will continue to feed the demographic self destruction of the Catholic Church in most places in the world.  And while open pederasty has gone underground since 2005… it is hidden… but it is almost never carefully rooted out. 

There is also this myopic pre-occupation with the 16 documents of Vatican II (to the exclusion of almost any pre-conciliar Church teaching) that will help continue the decline.  Today’s young person wants something concrete, definite, radical.  While there are a few good things in the Council… current bishops seem to make the council into a kind of sugary “super dogma” which eclipses all previous councils, encyclicals and even Sacred Tradition itself.  We will not move forward very fast again until all the council fathers have gone to their eternal reward (whatever that is for them).

Until bishops:
(*) Enforce Canon 915
(*) Get mom off of contraception and off the altars
(*) Restore ad-orientum and put a TLM on the main schedule in every parish.

(*) Enforce Vatican II’s mandate for Gregorian Chant at Mass and not the “optional” sappy antiphons and effeminate music.

(*) Clean out the seminaries of modernist theology teachers
(*) Begin helping traditionalist orders
(*) Stop trying to befriend every other religion and begin befriending the person in the pew (and not just during the diocesan annual appeal)

(*) Start teaching against Socialism, Marxism and materialistic capitalism

... NOTHING… and I mean NOTHING is going to change in terms of Catholic demographics. 

I will predict that traditionalist orders will continue to earn the lion’s share of vocations over diocesan vocations and aging hippy dippy nuns. 

Servus, Bob

Lauren,

You might want to read these documents to know out what the church actually teaches about consecrated life.

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/60381-resources-for-religious-vocations/