I got the memo. Those shady powers-that-be behind the Catholic blog world called me, Simcha, Janet, and Darwin and told us that we'd better write about modesty this week or else! So, alas, I have no choice but to share with you something I learned about modesty after my conversion:
Growing up in secular culture, I don't think I ever heard the topic of modesty discussed, at least not like it is in religious circles. Parents of high school classmates might have told their daughters that they had to wear mini-skirts -- no micro-minis allowed in this house! -- but there was a sense of purposelessness to it, like, "I don't know why it's a bad idea for my daughter to go out of the house looking like that...I just have this vague feeling that it is."
Years later, in the process of converting to Catholicism, I encountered serious discussion about this strange new concept called "modesty." Plenty of women in the secular world dressed with dignity and restraint, of course, but this was the first time I'd seen modesty held up as a virtue with specific characteristics, something clear and definable and worth aiming for. These religious folks even had an interest in discussing this issue! A lot! My first few forays into this strange new world involved reading some threads online in which folks talked about modesty proponents who create strict guidelines for how women should dress, then judge them accordingly. Though I never encountered any of these people myself, everyone seemed to know a friend's cousin's brother-in-law who believed that women who wore anything but ankle-length skirts were on a one-way bus to hell.
Despite all the vitriolic debates that surrounded this issue, it seemed to me that, as its core, there was something worth considering here. Nobody in secular culture even wanted to discuss the downsides of women using the Kardashian family as sartorial role models, and so I was relieved to see that the concept was at least on someone's radar. But something still felt wrong. Christianity was said to be the religion of love, but all these harsh judgments based on arbitrary regulations didn't seem loving at all. If these kinds of modesty standards really existed, they struck me as fear-based and legalistic.
Then I began hanging out with actual real-life Catholics, and the whole modesty thing clicked. The problem with both the secular and the religious extremist views was that they were too narrowly, inwardly focused: Secular culture said that each woman should be able to wear what whatever she wants, without regard to how it might impact others; the modesty extremists said that women were made worthy or unworthy depending on the details of how they clothed themselves. In both worldviews, all the energy around the discussion is pointed like a laser beam back at the woman.
In contrast, what I saw in practice among my new Catholic friends was a natural sense of modesty that was other-focused. They didn't avoid cleavage-bearing shirts because they read somewhere that it would make them bad people if they were to wear that kind of thing; they didn't favor longer, flowing skirts over shorter and tighter styles because they thought they could earn points on some holiness meter. Instead, they seemed to have a natural orientation to how the way they clothed themselves could impact the world around them.
I remember a gorgeous young mom friend telling me at a playdate how sorry she feels for young men struggling to live chaste lives in our decadent society. She spoke of her teenage brother with so much concern I thought she was going to cry, saying how proud she was of him for fighting the good fight every day, despite the temptations he must face every time he looks at a billboard or a magazine ad or a television show. As she spoke, I noticed the way she dressed herself: A simple cardigan over a matching tank top, over a fitted but not too-tight pair of jeans. She had the kind of natural physical beauty that could certainly lead others to temptation if she even made half an effort, yet it was clear from the way she carried herself that she was going out of her way to avoid using her appearance to wield power over others. Though I doubt she articulated any of these ideas, on some subconscious level, when she got dressed that morning she considered how her choices might impact the people she would meet that day; she was thinking of them more than she thought of herself.
The more women I met like this, the more the entire issue of modesty made sense. Earlier in my conversion, I had thought of it as an interesting but ultimately restrictive concept that limited women's freedom. But once I saw it in practice, I saw it as an opportunity, not a punishment. By dressing in a way that dignifies the body that God gave us, we have an opportunity to show our gratitude to God. By clothing ourselves in a way that doesn't cause the men we meet to face one more source of temptation that day, we have an opportunity to help them carry their crosses. By not drawing unnecessary attention to ourselves through our physical appearances, we have an opportunity to bless our friendships with our girlfriends.
As my own daughters grow up, I hope they don't face the same confusion I faced. I hope that they never see modesty as irrelevant, as I did when I was in the secular world, or as potentially filled with arbitrary and stressful rules, as I did when I first encountered the subject. I hope they understand that the way we dress is ultimately a chance to love; that, through the way we present ourselves, we have an opportunity to show love to ourselves, to God, and to others.
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[I think it’s interesting whenever the modesty topic comes up it’s only in regard to women, what they wear, how they act. Men always get a free pass.]
I think it’s wonderful you have never met any of the arbitrary judgmental types of pro-modesty Catholics. I’ve met a lot of them. I even had to leave a homeschooling chat group because that’s all they wanted to talk about, how we need to wear long skirts all the time and veils in church, etc. But I am thankful for articles like this that promote finding the medium between extremes.
Great post! I think something that is not discussed as much is modesty in bearing and behaviour. I see plenty of little girls in their lovely LONG skirts, who show off their underwear during their antics. It cracks me up since, for some of these families, it is my daughter in jeans who is immodest:-) As an mentioned men are rarely discussed, though it seems to be more and more of an issue. I refuse to let my boys go around shirtless, for example, they even wear rash guards to swim. I don’t see why their sister should be all covered up and they be very nearly naked. The men’s pants are getting tighter and the shirts either tighter or very open at the collar. Mostly it cracks me up because they look stupid, but occasionally I have to look away. For men and women modesty in posture and walking is important. I saw two pre-teen girls at Mass once, wearing the same style: kneelength skirt and fitted tops. The one walked modestly and LOOKED modest. The other drew my attention to herself with her “sexy” walking, and she didn’t look modest.
Whew, I got in before the big combox pile-on!
There’s another dimension here that seems to have been overlooked: those of us with nothing to show off. When a physically beautiful woman dresses modestly she also refrains from building barriers between herself and her sisters who were born with their beauty strictly on the inside.
I think women have some sense of what immodest apparel does to men. Go (if you dare anymore) to any swimming pool. Women whose self-image is depressed because no amount of immodesty of make-up will draw attention in this world their way. There is a sin called lust; I would suggest it is much stronger among men than women (not a lot of male pornography out there, is there)? I remember the story of a teenage boy speaking to a very old priest (in his nineties) about his problem with “head-turners”. “Father, does this desire ever stop?”. The priest said with a smile “No, not even at my age.” I know that priests have a problem with young women coming to Communion dressed, well, disrepectful of the Lord of the Universe right there in front of them - and certainly distracting to the boys and men around them, including the priests.
Yes, girls (and women) do need to re-think a lot of today’s sexual mores, including immodesty, sex before marriage, entrapment to the Pill (the great enslaver of all women - NOT a liberator!), divorce (not a constructive alternative), doing what they want to do with their lives (staying at home with children in a stable marriage is good for the kids, good for society, and good you soul). The Pill and women’s selfishness as shown in the liberation “fad” will take a lot of undoing. But today’s world is NOT the answer. So start thinking!
I grew tired of turning heads and decided to adopt a more modest but stylish way of dressing. I worked in a university library and every time I would cross the lobby, heads would inevitably turn, and my clothing wasn’t even trashy—mostly just barely above the knee shifts and slim skirts with sweater sets. I guess those outfits and my blond hair was enough to do it on a college campus!
I slowly began overhauling my wardrobe and invested in a couple of calf length a-line skirts in dark solid colors and paired these with fitted but not skin-tight sweater sets. The stares stopped and boy did it feel good. Never had I felt such freedom.
Forgot to add that I was married at the time (still am). I hated knowing that I was attracting the attention of other men besides my husband. I hated knowing also that other women were probably attracting the attention of my husband.
I see 2 problems in the area of modesty when people discuss it. One, it is almost always about the women, not the men. To me, this shows that no matter how much we protest, we as a subculture, have bought into the Muslim idea that women are dangerous objects of lust that lead decent men into weakness and sin. In fact a short while ago NCR had an article on the Muslim idea of marriage. Everyone but the most radical will agree with the idea that there should be common sense decency in woman’s clothing but I know of plenty of men who dress to attract women’s attention to their sexuality. There was a supervisor at my husband’s work who refused to wear the standard uniform provided because it didn’t showcase his equipment well enough. He was married and in his late 40s so this was not just a foolish youth.
Secondly, it depends entirely too much on who is wearing an outfit as to how modest it is. I have three young adult daughters. Dress them all in a knee length skirt and knit top. The oldest who is short, compact and very curvy with big brown eyes and full lips will look seductive. That girl could look flirty in a sack. My youngest who is blonde, tall, thin and very long legged would look like an innocent all American girl. My middle daughter is dark, big boned, and a bit heavy in the hips would look frumpy. I have never seen a discussion of modest dress NOT turn into a festival of accusations that the other poster are all less holy than them. In 3 posts, one has put down homeschoolers(of which I am one and rarely wear skirts at all)and one has wanted pretty girls to get uglier so she has a shot at marriage(motherly advice-DO Not marry anyone who wouldn’t marry you if you were ugly. Guys worth marrying marry for character not looks) It is kind of sad really.
Modesty is a virtue & so is charity.They should work hand in hand.Often in these type of threads, they don’t.
My mom taught me modesty in the 1960s. Her standard was similar to Jackie Kennedy. I wandered off that standard as an adult, but came back recently after renewing my faith. I’ve read trad Catholic blogs and seen how my new friends dress their kids, and found modesty is relative.
For example, one female blogger insists no necklines lower than 2 fingers below collarbone. A male blogger says men are equally tempted by women in 1-piece swimsuits as bikinis. Even a secular book I found (Dress For Success, 1980) says all jeans look sexy to men regardless of the cut.
One of my Catholic friends dresses her daughters for swimming in oversize tee shirts, long skirts and men’s swim trunks! They keep their shoulders covered in 100 degree heat and don’t own any bermudas, capris or sleeveless shells. They’re rarely in jeans. Meanwhile, her boys are shirtless all summer. If my mom were alive, she’d find this as unthinkable as I do.
This is too Taliban for me. The burkha fosters disrespect and inequality for women in the Middle East. We are *not* called to wear the burkha. Modesty can’t prevent all impure thoughts. I am 53 and got a sexual comment from a man in a wheelchair! I was wearing a trench coat and J Crew business suit at the time. I favor jail for any men who can’t control himself. Somewhere between Kim Kardashian and Mother Theresa’s wardrobe choices is a happy medium, and that’s where I’ll be.
Great. Just great.
I am thinking about modesty as it relates to music too. I love to dance and I love dance music, but a lot of dance music not only has a catchy tune, it is downright scandalous.
I was running the other day, and listening to the dance mix on Pandora and a song by a popular artist came on and I was utterly shocked by the horrible words glorifying S and M etc….I cannot understand how any female singer would ever propagate such a thing. Most mothers I know (most are pretty secular) laugh and roll their eyes when their 7,8,9+ daughters gyrate and mouth the words to racy tunes while doing karaoke at summer parties. Not to mention how they react to the older kids. They don’t really think you can do anything to stop it, since it is ubiquitous. They think it is pretty harmless. Harmless??? For a very young girl to be taking about a guy’s “love st***” (sorry)? What can we do? Do you have to deny all invitations to parties where this might occur? Does every mother need to become an expert in censorship or the radio?
momofthree ,
Years ago, a small, rural(non-Catholic) church near us held a talent show as part of their summer children’s program. A couple of the little girls performed “Satin Sheets.”
My neighbor & I were dumbfounded but I’m not aware anyone else had an issue with the song choice.
Modesty, such as it is, is not an absolute. It is a cultural construct, and it varies from culture to culture. There was a time that showing off an ankle was promiscuous. Indeed, there was a time where painting a nude was considered far less immodest than painting a lady in red pulling up the hem of her red skirt to show off her ankle! The nude was considered the symbol of chastity and true innocent love, the clothed woman the symbol of lust.
As such, I think a lot of Catholics who write about modesty tend to forget that this relativity means that the girl in shorty shorts and a tight tank top is not dressing immodest according to her surroundings, just like the woman who walks around topless in her tribal culture is not being immodest. Is it possible to dress lasciviously? Of course. But this, too, is a cultural construct - that is, what is considered a lascivious attempt to attract attention versus what is simply showing off or adorning the natural beauty of the human form is a matter that must take into consideration the prevailing fashions and norms of a culture.
Just a few thoughts from a husband and a father. As a man, I’m very aware of how I dress and how it impacts women other than my wife… thus modest slacks, button up shirt, etc. Even when I play basketball at the gym, I wear a reversible tank top so that we’re not dividing teams by “shirts vs skins.” I’m also aware of how I talk with women at work and in the community. I convey interest as a person, but not intimacy… as I think that can be just as tempting as how a person dresses. I try and connect with individuals as a daughter/son of God and that helps keep my interactions on track.
A great article. I think it is very important, in this case for modesty in particular and any virtue in general, to treat them as positive prescriptions for human fulfillment rather than seeing it through the lens of negative don’ts. Check the CCC: “Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love” and for one reason is because the human person longs for mystery. The chase is part of the hunt.
I have to confess I get very confused at how in many other articles and threads on modesty the emphasis is placed on skirts as the ideal clothing option for women. I studied Mechanical Engineering at an engineering campus where the ratio was approximation 1 woman to every 9 men and the only times I ever felt uncomfortable due to male attention was while wearing skirts for presentations. The skirts weren’t short, just at the knee and worn with heavy dark coloured tights. Skirts seem to draw a certain type of attention from men no matter how modestly they are worn in comparison to jeans and trousers. I have worn jeans that looking back were a bit on the tight side to be modest and yet they have never had the same effect as the skirts did. In my own experience skirts seem to be more attractive to men than trousers so I fail to see how they would be more modest than a loose pair of jeans or trousers.
Let me ask you this Scotty; Does your relationship with Christ change from culture to culture? No.
And I hate that modesty is made into an opportunity to ‘love’ others. Why? Because, as Christians, modesty is an issue of the heart first. It is about your relationship with Christ. It’s about the fact that we, as women, are a sacred embodiment of God’s plan for life. To quote Alice von Hildebrand who writes extensively about woman, she mentions that there is something sacred about being a woman, that even calls for veiling. While we create physical life, God literally touches a woman to breath life into her womb at conception when he creates the soul. Let me repeat that, God TOUCHES women in a very unique special way!
Because we have a very sacred dignity for the simple fact of being a woman, it is natural and even written in our hearts to reason that our body is a holy temple for the Lord. And thus, we should treat it that way. But we can only fully know our dignity as women, by understanding God’s plan from the beginning. As daughters of Christ, as we come to know Him, we understand why we should veil our bodies appropriately.
I don’t negate the fact that it helps men for women to be modest, but that is not the root of the issue of modesty. The heart of modesty is coming to know Christ and understanding how precious we are. We cannot follow ‘rules’ and ‘laws’, without understanding and knowing how God loves his daughters. Modesty is about being in communion with Christ!
Paola: I don’t see what anything you said has to do with what I said. I said simply that modesty in apparel (for both sexes) is culturally contingent. Guess what? If you showed off your hair in the street five hundred years ago, they would have called you a slut. Cover that stuff up! And guess what? If you walked around with nothing on in some parts of the world, nobody would even give you a second look. That’s a fact about the world. Now, maybe you think Jesus came up with the ideal wardrobe, the perfect level of transcultural modesty, but it’s not in any Bible I have ever read.
The skirts vs. pants debate! It is alive! It will never die!
Patricia,
Woman has an important role in all aspects of society. In fact, society NEEDS the gifts that women bring to the table. We as a society cannot fulfill the plan of God without our natural tendencies as women! There is NOTHING wrong with wearing a skirt around your male engineering co-workers or colleagues. I myself am an engineer, while I wear pants most of the time because I have to visit on site facilities, I wear a skirt when in the office and such. Why? Because it is who we are, and in turn it educates men on understanding that though we may be in a predominantly male profession, we are women.
We need to stop identifying ourselves as ‘women in the workplace’ and in turn take a step back and focus as ‘individuals in the workplace’. We all have unique and special gifts that our Father in heaven bestowed upon us. Edith Stein mentions, how can we classify women as being of one type? And it is actually the feminine tendency to look at people as individuals first, than as male/female - which is a quality SO NEEDED in every aspect of society.
Scotty,
I’m applying modesty to a Christian audience; while you are applying modesty to all cultures.
Paola: I suppose what I am saying is that personally I feel more modest and comfortable wearing pants than a skirt and the above is just my own experiences. I don’t dress mannishly while wearing pants and feel uncomfortable while wearing a lot of skirts, not all but a lot so I tend to leave them for special occasions and formal events. I would just like middle ground on the issue where it is possible to be seen as feminine and modest while wearing trousers as I feel modesty comes from how a person carries themselves as much as what they wear.
In Love and Responsibility, JPII (before he was Pope) encourages women to dress in a way that inspires love for them. I think this aspect is often missed when modesty is discussed primarily for the purpose of protecting men from something bad. It is a higher call to inspire in men something good…the respect and love for women as the beautiful persons (body and soul) God has made them. I know my daughters (ages 1 and 6) and my wife have a deep desire to express and embody the loveliness God has given them, so I am grateful that the Church gives them a vision, purpose, and the guidance for doing so. As a man, this aspect is a much more helpful frame of mind from which to counter temptations of lust.
The Bible addresses women wearing men’s “attire” but that attire is not defined strictly as pants, britches, etc.
Modesty varies from culture to culture & differs through time periods & so does clothing for each gender.
Objectively, though, I think over the last few decades we’ve been sliding towards Gomorrah, or as Robert Bork put it: “slouching.”
Just throwing this out there, Talbots is one of the best stores to shop for beautiful modest attire.
OK, as I understand a couple posters here, we shouldn’t consider cultural norms in how we dress. Therefore we should require all people who want to be modest to wear skirts to the floor as well as robes INCLUDING MEN. Because that’s how all the people who lived in Biblical times dressed. Jesus wore a skirt so men should wear skirts. Also, women need to be veiled all the time, not just for mass. And no fair getting away with those Amish caps. Full veils please. What’s that? That was a cultural norm back in Biblical times but not now so we don’t have to follow it? Exactly. The cultural norm for today in this country is men wear pants and women wear pants or skirts. Don’t complain. At least men aren’t wearing tights anymore.
On the subject of applying modesty to men.
As you know.. I’ve been single a long time. I’ve been abstinent a long time too.
And honestly, seeing a well-built man in a tight shirt typically just causes me to admire his dedication to a work-out regimen…. sometimes it definitely leads me to impure thoughts. The same guy walking around with a bare chest (Taylor Lautner, Matthew McConaughey) can do the same, to a greater degree.
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Most often, I just appreciate that he’s fit and obviously works at it.
But there are times I can watch men’s gymnastics… and the Rings rotation is akin to watching porn!
Men’s figure skating just makes me wish that all men had skater’s butts!
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I’m just saying… modesty works both ways!
Posted by Paola on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2012 11:05 AM (EST):Just throwing this out there, Talbots is one of the best stores to shop for beautiful modest attire.
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Thanks.I appreciate your helpful post amidst the general sniping.Maybe other readers will take note.
I enjoy shopping for that brand 2nd hand at the Goodwill.I’m wearing a Talbots cotton sweater as we speak.Cost was 4 bucks plus change.Even cheaper when they have special sales.
:)
Like a few people have said… I think modesty is dressing in a manner that inspires love and admiration, as opposed to lust. It is definitely cultural or circumstantial, because I might wear pj shorts and a tank if a girlfriend stops by, but I definitely would change clothes if she were bringing her husband too. My girlfriend could care less, but I would not subject her husband to the near occasion of sin.
Any person with a well-formed conscience and half a brain knows when he or she is dressed appropriately and modestly. Modesty is an attitude, not a dress code.
“...avoid using her appearance to wield power over others.”
BINGO. That’s modesty.
@ Jocelyne - well, sometimes it takes time to form that conscience, even with an entire brain.
It took me years to understand that I might have been putting men in a tough spot.
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I thought that because I was (am) flat chested, that it didn’t matter if I wore something low-cut, because it’s not like I was displaying anything!
And I remember telling an older co-worker that I didn’t think my skirt was particularly short. (oh, it was short! ) I’d be mortified now, but 15 years ago, I had the legs for it.
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My niece is wearing short shorts to church, and if I were there, I would explain to her why she shouldn’t… but then, why isn’t her mother telling her?
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Honestly, it took my own having a better understanding of the Eurcharist, (and the male mind) to adjust what I wore to Mass. I was never terribly inappropriate, but I believe I’m MORE appropriate now.
I wish someone had told me a little more, longer ago.
Renae ,
Yes, I think our Christian path in life is a journey, a work in progress.We don’t figure it out all at once.Encouragement & guidance from others can really be helpful if done in charity.It would be nice to see more encouragement & practical advice in comments here.I know there are older women who could do that.Most readers here are Catholic & can learn from each other.
@Renae - fair enough! Certainly young people (and not so young people) do need help with forming their consciences in this regard, and in others. I see a lot of very dubious clothing choices at Mass, for sure. I guess I just get tired of the extreme views expressed by some in these modesty threads. I should have phrased it differently. I agree that modesty is an important issue. I disagree that it is fruitfully dealt with by saying “Women should never wear X” or “Women should always wear Y”. As you say, as we grow in our faith, we should grow in modesty as we grow in other virtues. I think Jennifer put it really well, that modesty is an act of love. Charity should be the focus, always, rather than pants or skirts or veils or whatever.
I know that some women get turned on by foxy guys, but I think for most women the turn on is when a guy is romantic/heroic. The reason we don’t worry about male modesty is because for most of us, seeing a guy with no shirt on is not all that attractive. Most guys look worse naked anyway. But even for foxy guys, I don’t think most women will struggle a tenth of what men would do in the reverse situation. Science and experience shows us that men are much more visually-oriented and women are more relationally-oriented. I would say that this is a good reason for single women to avoid rom-coms. I just watched The Wedding Planner a few days ago, as a married woman. It had NO sway over me, but I know that sort of thing always made me long for a boyfriend/relationship when I was single.
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Is it worth pointing out that the degree of immodesty in the typical teenage girl’s outfit is WAY worse than that in the typical boy’s? Maybe that’s why we don’t talk about it as much? A guy with trunks is covering up more of his body than a girl in a bikini, and she has more “prime real estate” than he does. I don’t really think it’s a double-standard. For men who really are immodest, I just think, “ew, he must think he’s having his way with all us ladies.”
Is it true that men are turned on (sexually) by visual stimuli, and women by aural stimuli? Do you notice that more men buy porn magazines and videos but more women read romance/erotic novels? (where the explicit sex scene runs to several pages) This could explain why modesty (in terms of dressing properly) is more of an issue for women. On the other hand, “gentlemen” are judged by how they respond (vocally) to the physical appearance of women. Modesty and respect is expected from all Christians, but from women - more modesty; and from men - more respect.
To those who complain about the topic of modesty only addressing women: what exactly is an immodestly dressed man? Most men I know wear a T-shirt and shorts when at home. Nothing immodest about that. Women, on the other hand, wear a similar outfit, a top and shorts, but the style for women’s tops these days is just ridiculously immodest. This is why discussions on modesty center on women’s dress. The majority of women’s tops have V-necklines or scoop necklines that reveal much cleavage, with a neckline loose enough to hang down when bending over thus exposing your entire bra and bust. This is everyday apparel, worn by all age ranges, teens to older women. Immodesty imposed on women by the fashion industry is rampant, and women have by and large succumbed to it.
I don’t believe that any Christian culture approves of form fitting low cut tops for women. We all know the breast is both for nursing and for arousal in men. Any man that does not feel lust or discomfort in talking to a woman who exposes her chest is lying or comatized. The question is why do you really want to bare your chest for admiration of others with the exception of your husband? Isn’t it ironic that people often freak when they see a mother nursing her baby in public even when covered.
@ Patty ... consider the men with ripped abs and defined pectoral muscles…. when they wear a shirt that clings to every fabulous muscle - it is indeed, tough for me to concentrate.
Granted, in many areas of the country - no one is tempted by this —but I live in one of the fittest cities in the nation - and even covered up, those men look mighty good to a woman whose been in desert for 15 years!
(granted, the beer bellies in Omaha are a lesser occasion for sin!)
“...avoid using her appearance to wield power over others.”
BINGO. That’s modesty.” Why HER? We talk about modesty as covering up. What about boys & young men who wear their jeans so baggy that we can see their underwear. Or men who wear sandals to Mass and their feet are dirty. These are also immodest behaviors.
I think a good question to ask is, when in doubt is What is this ordered towards? Love or lust?
Food for thought: my bra size is 34G, which translates to about a size 16, but I wear a size 6 in pants. I do the best that I can, but the fact of the matter is that unless I wear a tent there is no hiding my bust. An outfit that would look lovely on most women will look trashy on me. I avoid those outfits, but I shouldn’t have to wear a tent. Also note that the only guy I’ve met who posts modesty articles is a rapist. He uses the issue of women’s “modesty” to justify giving women black eyes and sodomizing them, after tricking them into letting him into their homes. But hey, maybe he’s on to something, I haven’t been out to tempt men with the evil figure God gave me since the rape.
“she was going out of her way to avoid using her appearance to wield power over others.”
This is a brilliantly insightful statement on the subject of modesty. Appearances, by definition, demand visual attention. In order to be recognized (visual attention), we must be seen (appearance). If one dresses in a way that the attention they are demanding by their appearance allows them (intentionally or unintentionally) to “wield power over others”, then a line has been crossed - they are dressing immodestly.
Before I jump in, I wear pants. They are practical when doing physical activities like walking or climbing or when I know that I’m going to be playing with a young child since that usually involves getting on floor level. Having said that, part of the problem with pants is that our eyes are trained to follow lines. Pants have clear distinct lines that lead the eyes straight to the crotch and buttocks. It doesn’t matter how loose they are, that’s where the lines lead the eyes - which is perhaps why pants are considered an immodest choice even when they are not skin-tight.
As to why modesty discussions usually revolve around women, it is because men are far more visual creatures than women are. Women tend to be stimulated more by the imagination, which is why we are so drawn to romance novels, than men are. Hence the reason we, as Christian women, have a duty to concern ourselves with how we dress so as not to cause men undue hardship in keeping their thoughts on Christ.
I’m not quite ready to eliminate pants entirely from my wardrobe, but I do tend to choose skirts or dresses whenever it is practical to do so. Better that I should refrain from an otherwise licit activity than be an occasion of sin for my brother.
There’s a pretty cool article in Catholic Answers online.Not about modesty per say, but kind of related:
“If You Want Justice, Work for Chastity”
By: Gregory R. Beabout
Those who are trying to follow the Marylike standards of dress shouldn’t be labeled as extremists or uncharitable. What is uncharitable is when those who are trying to set a good example get picked on by others as being too “extreme.” There are standards and rules for many things in life, and that would include modesty since it is so important. Mary appears in her apparitions the way she does for a reason. She doesn’t follow the latest fashions (which she warned about at Fatima).
Regarding women wearing jean pants, I think we should all really look very deeper into the truth about women wearing men’s clothing and the dangers of it. Think of it this way, how would we all react if men came dressed in dresses today? We all would be shocked! And the Catholic Church had a lot to say about women dressing as men and I truly think everyone needs to read the doctrine’s of the Church here because all humanity suffers from us women dressing in pants. Today there is a loss of masculinity verses femininity. Women who wear pants either act sophisticated if the pants are baggy or they act boyish and a lot of lesbians were them baggier pants. Mother Angelica once said that dressing sophisticated is not being childlike. Girls wearing tighter pants truly act more sexual and that too is not feminine. Femininity is lost when a women puts on a pair of pants. Men are truly turned on by women in pants and it does reveal more of the body, verses long (non-tight) dresses below the knees.(as the church teaches). It is a scientific fact that men’s eyes follow lines and when a woman wears pants men follow the lines of her legs and they see first her rear-end and brain waves have shown that men see the woman now as an object rather then a person. Truly our lady of Fatima said certain fashions would be introduced that would offend our Lord. Notice that their were no women wearing pants before our lady appeared and none would dare do so. Our Lady also always wears a dress at her apparitions. This whole site is great. Here is the Church’s words on wearing men’s clothing (pants): http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Mens_Dress.html
Regarding women wearing pants this documentary is really good because it shows here that the gays and homosexuals got into the fashion industry to make the female neutral gender, no longer feminine. The gay and homosexuals put women in pants and cut off their hair to make them more boyish to fit their sexual fantasies. Keep in mind the Church’s notification (earlier above that I posted) on the warning about women wearing men’s clothing pants by Cardinal Siri, while viewing this documentary. It starts a little past 30:50 http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/time-capsule-mike-wallace-tells-truth-about-homosexuality-in-1967-documenta
“If one dresses in a way that the attention they are demanding by their appearance allows them (intentionally or unintentionally) to “wield power over others”, then a line has been crossed - they are dressing immodestly.”
Yes, but what about the “power suit”? Or wearing expensive clothing to a dinner party? Are these both crossing that line?
So, Waiting in Hope, do you dress like Mary did (and all Jewish women of Biblical times)? Do you wear a loose tunic to the floor and a veil covering your head and shoulders all the time? Or do you dress modestly but within current cultural norms? Mary appears in apparitions the way she does because she is easily recognizable as Mary that way. We know from our holy cards and statues that if someone appears that way it is Our Lady. But she never once said in an approved apparition that we should dress the way she was dressed. At Fatima she said certain fashions would be introduced that would be offensive to God. I think she was referring to things like mini-skirts and bikinis, not pants.
First, I have wrestled with this issue for many years and could credit it as the starting point in bringing me to the Catholic faith. That said, as a Catholic, I must look at what the Church herself teaches. Cardinal Siri said some good stuff, but it is not official Church teaching. Even the recommendations by a pope at the beginning of the 20th century were good, but, again, not official teaching. (BTW, had those requirements been stated 100 years earlier, he’d have been seen as a dirty old man!) In addition, consider this:
“Pope St. Nicholas I, way back in A.D. 866, wrote to the newly Christianized Bulgarians, the females of whom wore pants, and said, “For whether you or your women wear or do not wear pants (femoralia) neither impedes your salvation nor leads to any increase of your virtue.” 1
1 Excerpt from “The Responses of Pope St. Nicholas I to the Questions of the Bulgars” (Letter 99), Chapter LVIIII, A.D. 866”
These were new converts who wrote to the pope asking if their women should begin wearing pants now that they were Christians. As you can see, his answer was, “No.”
I, personally, wear skirts/dresses because in my walk of faith, I believe God desires me to do so. However, my daughters do not. Since the Church does not require the wearing of dresses, I do not either.
The second thing I would like to mention is that women need to be careful not to make modesty an occasion of immodesty. Believe it or not, not every man is panting and drooling, waiting for a peek at a woman’s body. And it is a slap to every decent man for women to act as if they are. My own son (17) was very insulted when a girl, who insisted upon standing in the line with the magazines when he’s chosen the other line without, then admonished him with, “Don’t look!” He doesn’t purposefully look and, as he’s pointed out to me, he is somewhat immune to it anymore just because it’s everywhere. He’s learned to discipline his mind and I’m very proud of him for it. Let us assume the best of our men, not the worst.
Jennifer, excellent article and one that hits the correct point: We dress out of concern for others, not just ourselves.
A few things… Jennifer, I like your post but I notice you tend to talk about what people “must” be thinking regarding modesty, whether it’s the secular Mom or the Mom you met at the playdate. It may be that these women actually told you their reasoning on the subject of modesty, but in the post, it sounds like you are making assumptions.
And about pants: the Vatican does not allow women in pants. It’s not a dogma of the faith, but worth considering. I’m not saying “no pants,” but pants do draw attention to certain parts of the body, even if they are not tight. I think some people who want to wear pants would like to pretend that is not true.
I don’t know about the dressing for others thing. I don’t think I could bear it if I got up every day and considered everyone I might meet and the impact my clothing would have on them. Maybe that’s because my entire wardrobe is modest and so I don’t have to think about it. That is easy for me because I have a simple life, don’t need office wear or evening wear, just simple, pretty dresses. But I’m not sure how much I want the possible impact of my clothing to be on my mind each time I dress, to be thinking “will my breasts show? Will anyone notice my bottom?” or whatever. It would me to think about modesty in ways that are sort of…immodest.
Which reminds me that Simcha had a post once about how, well, immodest it is to be always talking about modesty. I think she’s write, and I’m starting to feel kind of icky even writing this comment! Arrgggh! It’s happening!!!
Lisa, the arguments that Mary always appears in dress and so should we doesn’t work because neither does Jesus appear in pants and men have been wearing pants long before women. Also our Lady of Guadalupe, appeared in the dress of the natives there at that time, thus, respecting the traditional dress of the people there.
Given that men are so much more tempted to sin by immodesty than women are, I think it makes sense that the topic of modest clothing is often directed at women. Women are not tempted to the same degree, and men’s clothing in general is more modest than styles that women wear. Also, I have seen several articles on modesty that address men, too. The circumstances that accompany this discussion do not allow for a simplistic idea that 50% of all articles and books on modesty should be directed at men.
Oh. my. gosh. When did we get so neurotic? Scotty Ellis, thank you. Live and let live. I’m really tired of the “poor guys, they have testosterone” argument (that I have fallen for in the past) Employ “custody of the eyes” if you have a lusting problem. Your occasion of sin, may be another man’s occasion to bless God for beauty. Do women in Burkas feel superior to women in Hajabs? Offer yourself to God wholeheartedly in your jeans and in your skirts, or your swan lake tights. Ask Him for a heart that is big enough to love the whole world, no matter how they look, worship, or fail/succeed in any area according to your personal tastes and preferences. Can’t we get past all of this? At the “end of the race” he will judge our hearts, not our sweater sets.
Vatican dress code says covered knees and shoulders, not no pants for women.
http://saintpetersbasilica.org/touristinfo.htm
Modesty…a big topic in our home. I love that my children wear uniforms to their Catholic school. I love that my 8 you daughter will declare something “inappropriate” (clothing, actions, language, etc.). It is not done in a judging way, it is simply an observation that whatever a person is doing is calling attention away from their character. We attended a program recently where a religious sister discussed modesty. She told the young girls that immodesty meant not allowing someone else to see the beauty inside. I have a question: I am a Eucharistic minister in our young and vibrant parish. I find myself spending time trying to decide what is modest enough to wear to mass. Anyone have thoughts on this?
Katie,
I am a core member with Lifeteen ministries and an extra-dordinary minister of Holy Communion too. I wear dress plants and an appropriate top, the days I serve. I am not a big fan of long skirts. I do wear skirts that are mid length though.
I would avoid wearing Jeans while serving, because it’s not something I would wear to a banquet, so why wear it to the King’s banquet.
A good question to ask was, if the King of Kings held a banquet, how would you dress?
I agree with anna lisa—women should not be blamed for “immodesty” because men “lust” after them any more than calling chocolate cake immoral because dieters want to eat it. What is the Catholic Church for if the manner of dress (for either sex) tempts them from their spirituality? God made men AND women in God’s own image.
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Jennifer is getting too preachy on how Catholics should behave.
Lisa De Ruyter, I love your posts - they are right on!
Ann, it wasn’t necessary for you to be sarcastic - you know that is not what I meant. This is why I rarely ever get involved in forums anymore - people tend to act like this, and it’s very hurtful…
I’m now unsubscribing from this thread as I don’t need any more upsetting things in my life right now. God bless…
Waiting in Hope, I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic - I was using the Socratic method to show the fallacy in your argument. In other words, if you take your argument to its logical conclusion you are saying we should all literally dress like Mary and Jesus. Whereas I am saying that one should dress modestly within cultural norms. Since cultural norms vary from time to time and place to place, you will never see the official Church state what men and women should wear to be modest. You very occasionally may see priests or Popes or bishops give opinions of what they consider appropriate but that opinion is only applicable to the time and place the prelate is speaking in AND it is not official Church teaching. All private institutions, schools, local parishes, Vatican churches, etc. are allowed to set a dress code for their institution. That doesn’t mean that they think you should dress that way everywhere. My former Catholic grade school didn’t expect me to wear their uniform everywhere I went. What is appropriate in one time and place is not necessarily appropriate in another. For example, because a bathing suit is not appropriate for church doesn’t mean you can’t wear a bathing suit at the pool. We are not expected to dress in ancient Jewish or Victorian or Amish costumes to be modest. A costume is attention getting, not modest. We are expected to dress appropriate for the time and place we are in and there is a range of what is appropriate. So being doctrinaire about dress, (like saying you can’t wear pants or have to wear veils) is legalistic and legalism is not Catholic.
Anna Lisa and Gloria - Have you all read about what Our Lady of Fatima said concerning modesty? I think that what is or isn’t modest attire is not set in stone, but it seems pretty clear that dressing modestly IS very important.
Pilgrim, everyone here has agreed that modesty is important. The disagreement is about what is modest and what is not. I agree with the original article which proposed that one should avoid extremes.
I would have to agree with MightyMighty and Dominic. YMMV, but I can see a shirtless guy and think, “He looks good,” and that’s as far as it goes; however, a silky voice can do me in. By contrast, enough shoulder and collarbone had a coworker so distracted that I could tell he was having difficulty talking to me or doing what he was supposed to (it was a brutally hot day so I had thought nothing of it, but he was sweet, so I decided to just consider the point instead of being offended). Perhaps men’s clothing is getting tighter, but let’s face it, when was the last time you saw things like lace or suggestive cutouts on them? Or pants that say “Juicy” on the backside? I never could understand why I would want someone reading my butt..
The other notion I perceive in secular conversations about attire is the idea that lust is fine as long as it stays between one’s own ears. How do people not see that disrespectful actions don’t just come out of nowhere, they are fed on a diet of disrespectful thoughts?
Kris: dirty feet should be covered for different reasons.
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Jane Doe: I’m so sorry…truly. The best you can do is the best you can do, and to expect more than that is clearly unreasonable, and to justify violence by it is beyond the pale. I do hope you have seen a more positive and wholesome take on modesty here today.
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Waiting in Hope: Can anything be justly criticized as extreme? One summer I met a family with two very lovely girls, teen or college-age I think. They were in turtlenecks and heavy velvet dresses…in the midwest…in July. Necessary?
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Lisa: What’s a kilt, then?
I’m sorry but that is ridiculous. I wear pants that fit, and I happen to be skinny so my pants are skinny too (although I certainly do not wear the kind that look spray-painted on). I do NOT “act more sexual.” And nobody can “upskirt” me—you know it’s very easy to do that even when a hemline falls at or below the knee, what with everyone having camera phones these days—or witness me do a Marilyn by accident.
And I’m going out on a limb here, but why do we assume that when Our Lady chose the word “fashions” that she necessarily meant it in the sense that modern English-speakers understand it today? Could she not have meant philosophical trends? Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s just a thought.
Also, masculine garb was evidently no impediment to sainthood for Joan of Arc.
Someone once summarized the difference between how men and women are tempted very nicely; men are tempted to lust and women are tempted to be lusted after.
For those thinking on what O.L. of Fatima said, Google fashions of the 1920’s and you’ll get an idea. The “Roaring 20’s” were just about as immodest as some of the extremes of today.
Posted by Tracy Spenst on Friday, Jul 13, 2012 9:30 AM (EST):For those thinking on what O.L. of Fatima said, Google fashions of the 1920’s and you’ll get an idea. The “Roaring 20’s” were just about as immodest as some of the extremes of today.
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Also for perspective, in the Empire fashions of the early 1800’s, some ladies wore very revealing dresses made from thin,white muslin .To increase the effect, they’d pour water over the muslin.Something like the modern wet t-shirt contests.
Some things never really change.
I remember when I was a little girl, watching my sister, the prima ballerina, dancing in her various roles. My mother got sick of elbowing me in the ribs every time her male consort would arrive on the stage. It wasn’t lust by any means, it was mirth. I’ve never seen a male in a nightclub dressed so provocatively.
I don’t have any problem with what Jennifer wrote. I’m just a tad jumpy as I’ve been abused by some relatively well-meaning people with high ideals, razor sharp tongues, and a competition for holiness that rivals cage fighting.
@Pilgrim: I LOVE O.L. of Fatima. I love modesty. I wore my bikini quite modestly on the beach today. Really. I’m not being sarcastic. Would you love me more if I told you that I pray our Lady’s rosary every day? After the Holy Mass, and the love which I share with my husband and family, it is the high point of my day.
Oh, and I should qualify that: I haven’t been friends with those people who treated me so unkindly for YEARS. They kicked me out of their home school play group when I decided to put my child in Catholic school. They aren’t bad people, they are just proud and their cruelty is to be pitied. My husband and I have a little song we sing to each other when we spot one, it goes like this: (sing-song voice) *I’m better than you are*!
I truly think that you need to take a good long look at how these women who wore pants were dressed so you can clearly understand that Pope St Nicholas was addressing THEIR EXTERIOR STYLE. These women are not dressed as unfeminine as our women are today. In fact they basically have a long dress with pants under them. These were newly Christianized Bulgarians, that Pope St. Nicholas I is addressing way back in A.D. 866 and the Pope also says that these people should pass from this custom, but basically for now they were not going to hell because THEIR customs were not sinful…....
We know today that the women who are wearing pants are fully exposing their rear ends, as to these women’s rear ends are covered. We also know that the pants we have today are much more revealing then then. The Pope was only addressing THEIR exterior STYLE, and today the woman’s pants and it is scientifically proven, turn men on, as men look at lines and follow these lines right up to the woman’s crouch and that is why men’s brain waves see the woman as an object.
Please don’t even compare these women’s style that Pope Nicholas back then was addressing to the pants that are truly not feminine and were started by the homosexual and gay industry to wipe out femininity. On top of the gay industry we have the porn industry who made the pants even tighter and sexier exposing even more of the women’s flesh and in doing so now we have women as boyish or sexy and some women are trying to act sophisticated who wear them a little looser, and all these pants have caused women nothing but confusion and these pants have wiped out what it is to be feminine. There is no longer a a difference in dressing as male and female.
I capitalized some of the Pope’s words. Please read it all and then take a good long look at the ONLY style this Pope was addressing.
“We consider what you asked about pants (femoralia) to be irrelevant; for we do not wish the EXTERIOR STYLE of your clothing to be changed, but rather the behavior of the inner man within you, nor do we desire to know what you are wearing except Christ — for however many of you have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ [Gal. 3:27] — but rather how you are progressing in faith and good works. But since you ask concerning these matters in your simplicity, namely because you were afraid lest it be held against you as a sin, if you diverge in the slightest way from the custom of other Christians, and lest we seem to take anything away from your desire, we declare that in our books, pants (femoralia) are ordered to be made, NOT IN ORDER THAT WOMEN MAY USE THEM,BUT THAT MEN MAY. But act now so that, just as you passed from the old to the new man, [cf. Eph. 4:22-24; Col. 3:9-10] YOU PASS FROM YOUR PRIOR CUSTOM TO OURS IN ALL THINGS, but really do what you please. For whether you or your women wear or do not wear pants (femoralia) neither impedes your salvation nor leads to any increase of your virtue.
“Of course, because we have said that pants are ordered to be made, it should be noted that we put on pants spiritually, when we restrain the lust of the flesh through abstinence; for those places are constrained by pants in which the seats of luxury are known to be. This is why the first humans, when they felt illicit motions in their members after sin, ran into the leaves of a fig tree and wove loin cloths for themselves.[cf. Gen. 3:7] But these are spiritual pants, which you still could not bear, and, if I may speak with the Apostle, you are not yet able; for you are still carnal.[I Cor. 3:2] And thus we have said a few things on this matter, although, with God’s gift, we could say many more.”
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jennifer-fulwiler/modesty-is-an-opportunity-to-love#ixzz20Z85nlYIhttp://australiaincognita.blogspot.com/2012/04/in-world-but-not-of-it2.html
Somehow I posted the site above with the other site.
Here is the picture of the newly Christianized Bulgarian women and their pants (that look like dresses with pants under them) who “Pope St. Nicholas I, way back in A.D. addressed.
The Pope was saying on ONLY THEIR style and their wasn’t going to harm their salvation because it was not immodest! He also tells them to conform though to the Church and that the church teaches only men were to wear pants and that is the churches custom.
I wrote in more detail above.
Please take a very long look at the style the Pope was addressing. It does not reveal the rear end and the entire form of the woman’s body because the woman basically is covered by a dress that is below the knee. (which is more modesty/feminine than the pants we have today)
http://australiaincognita.blogspot.com/2012/04/in-world-but-not-of-it2.html
Lisa, you’re welcome to your opinion, but the simple fact of the matter is that wearing dresses is not required by any Church doctrine you can quote that is binding on the Universal Church.
I think it’s funny that when I wasn’t a Catholic I thought Catholics were told what to do and think, sort of like JW’s, when in reality the Church allows more freedom than any Christian denomination! (freedom, not license, mind you)
BTW, the research on men’s eyes was done in the 70’s—I wonder what such a study would reveal today? Just a wonderment.
Why should women wearing pants bother anyone? Because “cross-dressing” scares the hell out of Christian conservatives—they might be lesbians! A woman wearing a skirt can’t be a lesbian—she is being feminine. But a woman wearing pants is obviously acting like a man.
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The Catholic obsession over sex is really what this post is all about.
Gloria,
This is just an exchange of opinions. Not a theological discussion. Our culture is obsessed with sex. We would not even be having this discussion if it was not.
You’re right—our culture sells sex just as Catholic culture sells celibacy. But “modesty” will not prevent sexual behavior—Victorians were notorious about female modesty and sexual perversion. Just make sure your daughters don’t leave the house until they’re safely married to the nice boy you choose for her.
Dear Gloria,
Catholic culture does not sell celibacy. This is only for the consecrated. I think you mean chastity or purity of mind and heart. It’s not just a set of “do not do this”, but proper to one’s state in life.
Dear Fellow Catholics,
Stop being so darn legalistic. Chastity is not objectifying people in mind and heart. Yes, this can be done by how people dress, but it can also be done without it.
We are not puritans or pornographers.
Dear Savvy
I think that we must share what the church truly teaches about modesty because it is sooo needed today. Lucia told an American Couple to start a modesty league in America because it would truly please our Lord and our Lady. To dialog in love and truth about the Church’s teachings and writings on modesty is spreading modesty and that is what our Lord and Lady wish for us to do.
The Church had a lot to say about Modesty and Chastity and they cannot be separated because the beginning of Chastity and purity is modesty.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2521 “Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.”
2522. Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires ones choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is descreet. (italics CM)
2523. There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body…. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.”
That is why the Church (the bible, the saints etc..) continues has soooo much to say about it.
http://www.catholicmodesty.com/index.html
@Jane Doe, If you are still reading: I wanted to say that I have a similar problem of build, although I never was a size 6 at the hips and sadly will never be until I am in a wheelchair (God-willing) from disease or old age. BUT anyway, as a teenager my male headmaster held me back to lecture me about my shirt, which we all knew wouldn’t have been a problem on a smaller-busted girl, and that was the beginning of the clue that modesty is NOT about what most people think it is about; often when people speak of it they are using it as a vehicle for their own shame.
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I am sorry for what happened to you. I feel very lucky that my rapist was never a part of my Facebook circles and I don’t have to think about him much at all. It seems it would be awful to have it otherwise. (I do think about his poor wife, though, and wonder how she is.) I will pray for you tonight!
“It’s not just a set of “do not do this”, but proper to one’s state in life.”
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Compared to what?
Lisa,
Conversion first starts in one’s heart. Yes we protect what is most precious to us, but there isn’t a code set in stone.
Gloria,
Compared to the excessive legalism, that some of the posters have here.
Savvy
God knows our hearts and if you refuse to listen to the church you refuse to listen to Christ. You keep asking yourself and telling others to determine what modesty is, but truly we must go to the Church who is the pillar and foundation of truth to get the truth. Here are the words from the Church and her sound teachings and doctrines on what real modesty is and her saints writings too, are all written on this site. I think you need to understand that your word and your conscious has to be in unity with the Magisterium’s teachings otherwise you don’t have the full truth. I posted this site because without the Church’s teachings we are all protestants. The Magisterium is in charge of what is morally right (including on what is true modesty) and no one else is in charge but the Holy See.
http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Popesonmodesty.html
Lisa,
I never said we should not dress modestly. These quotes refer to a certain context. It does not mean that they are doctrine. They would qualify as discipline.
Savvy your to be obedient to all discipline and doctrine of the Church which which regard all morality.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/liturgy_and_discipline.htm
Lisa,
I have nothing against what you are saying. It’s HOW you’re saying it. Perhaps you might want to look into more convincing ways to frame your arguments. You could start with the Theology of the Body and love and responsibility.
So ladies, ladies, you wanna roll in my Mercedes? Then turn around, stick it out, even white boys got to shout. Baby got back!
LA face with the Oakland booty.
This topic is always sure to bring out many and various opinions. I’ve read most of the comments here. I’m heartened to know that many Catholics take dressing modestly seriously. As I’m now 50+, I too understand more fully why dressing appropriately for Mass is important.
Modesty in speech is also important, something Jason Evert brings up in Theology of the Body for Him/Her. He says speech is where males most often need to clean up. I’ve noticed it has become trendy to sprinkle vulgarities (esp. the “f” word)in speech. I had to block a friend’s posts from my facebook page because of this. I suppose that, to him, it was just common usage.
Jennifer, thank you for writing on this topic. I hope many parishes incorporate modesty lessons of some kind in the faith formation program. Our Lady (at Fatima?) predicted that fashions would be one of the things we would struggle with in the future. God bless us, and Mary keep us!
I live in NYC and riding the subway is always an occasion for sin, especially when I am holding on to the bar in front of a seated woman who is bursting out of her top. It gets boring reading the posters overhead over and over again until I reach my destination, or if the woman in question reaches hers first. It makes me wonder: what would happen if I comment on her cleavage (wow, beautiful cleavage!) - would I get a thank-you or a slap in the face? And on the subject of cleavage, what is this trend that brides should wear strapless gowns with, yes, cleavage going down to there? Is this to provide a preview of things to come for the groom?
I think modesty (or immodesty) lies for the most part in behavior rather than in what people actually wear. Men are just as capable of standing in immodest poses and behaving in overly familiar, suggestive ways as women. It’s kind of hilarious, because I think a lot of men just think they are just being charming when they behave in this way. I cannot think of the number of times I have been talking to a Catholic man in a school or work setting and thought “somebody needs to tell this guy that modesty isn’t just for girls, and being a man doesn’t mean you have license to project your sex appeal at innocent passerby!”
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Re “And on the subject of cleavage, what is this trend that brides should wear strapless gowns with, yes, cleavage going down to there? Is this to provide a preview of things to come for the groom?” LOL, that’s funny. I only wish somebody told the bride that she doesn’t need to give a preview to EVERYBODY on those things that are reserved for the GROOM ONLY.
hi, I have read between the lines of the blogs and opinions on modesty. reading bewteen the lines…i suspect that sometimes men state at women, dressed in a certain way ...let me express my related opinon with a counter point-please permit me inquire; I am asking catholic married women here: are aware of what can be termed the ‘married stare?’
what is that, a little off topic of modesty;Firstly, I am curious if the married women reading this are aware that there is such a thing as married stare… well the term was in essay format by an English essay writer, pre victorian era, the wonderful writer Charles Lamb, which can be googled. Being unmarried and single, he was conscious of his male friends’ wives of whom took a long stare (at him) and the dinner table. He suggested these wives of his married friends stared at him. Since he was single, he noted that this to be felt as an awkward moment. Well a stare is a prolonged look to make one uncomfortable. I think he was right. Now think for a few seconds about the above. I continue:i am single male, 52. I feel the same arrows of this married stare. This is not particular to the any one religious faith. Perhaps, the wives of my married friends-are thinking,‘single, eh?-strange indeed.” o they are suspicious or something. So in this silence, i should project anything onto their silence. I should be thought wrong most of the time perhaps in error of what a married women is thinking. Modesty can go with words like unmarried, abstinate, or chaste. Males stare too; Perhaps, the wives and their stare-seem to inquire….does he have a sexual neurosis, or what is his problem? my guess only. If anyone should wish to comment? are you not aware that you do this affecting a single man? is this a conscious effort or done at the subconscious, unwittingly giving a silent stare? Well, let me give a idea of whom i think i am. I am a Rosary Catholic. I will loudly tell any women that i am unashamedly chaste. Now this promotes honesty. I would add that this is only a percent of the time. So to,I would admit, likewise, that i am sexual neurotic the other percent. Yet, the same is discussed in prayer with God. And i do appreciate the prayer in the Ava Maria,“Blessed be thou art among women.” Perhaps, a single catholic male sometimes may see women as he would see Mary. (is that unfair?) I should confess my belief, for right or in error, that even one Ava Maria takes me into the court of the Queen. Ironically, i know her to also be Mother. Queen and Mother seem to reveal the mercy of God. And i know that i have the ear of the King. She interceeds. If i told you this across the dinner table. Would you stare at me. I should not feel uncomfortable really. God Bless you this wonderful day!
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