Sadly, this power play among women gets as loud as ever when discussing modesty.  The sheer anger at the mere suggestion that dressing up like women of the night is not to be imitated - with exaggeration, just Google images of working girls on the street and at any night club -  is appalling!  Curiously, the greatest enemies of modest dressing are not men, but women.

I was thinking of the personal, practical benefits of modesty yesterday, after a wayward kernel of popcorn leapt out of the searing pot and landed squarely in the cleavage showing out of my tank top. It caused a chain reaction of distraction & pain as I tried to dig out the offending kernel- the top slipped from the pot in my other hand, spilling popcorn & kernels & oil everywhere, including on my toddler’s bare feet. (I _told_ him to stay back, but alas…) Anyway, I guess technically it’s not a modesty issue because I was home alone with my kids, but still- Youch!

Maybe it’s an age thing…but I am actually struggling what some parents are allowing their girls- teen and older, to wear to church. Shorts that stop right at the rear is causing me to internally hyperventilate as I take a teen and preteen to mass. There are certainly modest Catholic wpmen…but in my city most are overly concerned with looking ever young and fit and making certain their outfits display this.

Odd, my husband and I just had a conversation about this. He was noting he had overheard a couple women(we were at VBS)speculating that a 3rd women wasn’t wearing underwear under her white pants. He said he just didn’t get why women had to be so catty. First, I said I hadn’t even noticed the woman was wearing white pants and wondered why they were examining that end of her. Then I said I thought that this was the way women competed, like a man would brag on his golf score or salary, a woman will make a cutting comment about another woman’s weight or clothes or looks. Modesty or no, there is such pressure to be some ideal, whether some “skortura model of holiness” or secular standard of fashion and thinness, it really is the same evil practice- one woman hating another woman and feeling good they are not as unacceptable as the other. YOu notice most of the time in scripture, there is no description of what people look like, it wasn’t the important thing, would that we could be so focussed.

I am currently reading “The Introduction to the Devout Life” by St. Francis de Sales.  Imagine my laugh when the passage comes along - “Chapter 25 - Propriety in Dress”.  Holy providence!

I have been on the scathing end of the this same complaint - I don’t dress modest enough!  At conference w/ fellow homeschoolers (I know you’re not surprised) I was given the evil eye because my dress was obviously not denim, dowdy, ugly or long enough to suit a few of the women there.  My dh assured me that I was both modest and looked great; he quipped that perhaps jealousy was the cause of the looks.  (Need I reassure you that my dress went below the knee and though it was sleeveless, I wore a sweater?)

I was delighted to read St. Francis de Sales who writes:  “As to the material and style of the clothes, propriety depends on several circumstances such as time, age, rank, company and occasions.” 

Further on, he writes words that assured me that my husband’s view of situation was spot on - “As for me, I would like that devout persons, whether men or women, be always the best dressed of the group but the least pompous and affected and, as the Proverbs say, adorned with grace, propriety and dignity (Prov. 31:25).  St. Louis says in one word:  We must dress according to our state in such a way that the wise and good may not say:  you do too much, nor the young say: you do too little.” But in the case the young are not satisfied with propriety, they ought to abide by the advice of others.”

Words written over 400 years ago are even more true now…..

It’s so funny, years ago, I would have never thought of myself as a modest dresser…just wearing normal clothes like (most) everyone else. Now that the modesty movement is more in the forefront (or maybe I’m just paying more attention to it), I realize that for the most part, I am modest! Ha! Who knew? I just thought I was dressing in good taste, which yes, is modesty. But being modest was never the first thing on my mind. This also might be because I’ve always been a “larger” girl/woman, and I think it’s gross when “larger” people try to squeeze themselves into clothes that obviously do not fit! Modesty can be a bit subjective since I am sure that to some women, what I wear wouldn’t fit their modesty standards, just as some women might wear super-revealing clothing and think they look A-OK. For the “record” I wear the occasional sleeveless top (no spaghetti straps), knee length skirts and shorts, and of course, PANTS! :)  I also think fit and style should play into modesty. An ankle length skirt isn’t really modest (to ME) if it’s skin tight.

Even in this North Texas heat ( 100+ )  I still try to dress modestly, especially at Mass.  Thank you for the refreshing post.

So what about the other side of the spectrum?  I’ve always considered myself a modest dresser, but a lot of the other young mothers I associate with might be what you would call “extreme.”  I sometimes feel slightly uncomfortable around them, though I don’t think that they judge me.  I’ll be wearing a normal bathing suit, they’ll be swimming in t-shirts and long shorts.  On the one hand, they have every right to dress in a way the feel appropriate. Still, I’m not going to dress as they do just because they do.  So when we’re at the pool, I feel like I’m wearing a lot less, which happens to be a lot more than most people wear!  I don’t know that this is a problem, but we are speaking of how women’s dress affects other women around them. Any thoughts on this?  I liked the quote from Francis de Sales on dressing according age, rank, company and occasions.

To build on what St. Francis de Sales said, I like to keep in mind what Pope Pius XII counseled:

“The trend of fashions is not in itself evil. It flows spontaneously from the social nature of man, in accordance with an impulse which inclines him to keep in harmony with his fellow-men, and with the way of acting of those amongst whom he lives. God does not ask you to live outside your times, so careless of the exigencies of fashion as to render yourselves ridiculous, by dressing in a way opposed to the common tastes and practices of your contemporaries, without considering at all what pleases them.
...
In following fashion, virtue lies in the middle course. What God asks of you is to remember always that fashion is not, and cannot be, the ultimate rule of conduct for you that beyond fashion and its demands, there are higher and more pressing laws, principles superior to fashion, and unchangeable, which under no circumstances can be sacrificed to the whim of pleasure or fancy, and before which must bow the fleeting omnipotence of the idol of fashion.”

So, we can (and out of charity should) follow fashions as long as they fall within the unchangeable guidelines of modesty that continue to be promoted by the Vatican (have you seen the signs of “what not to wear” outside of St Peter’s?)

Great modesty angle! You’re right, tension for both males and females decreases if everyone is wearing appropiate clothing; it spares energy to get to know each other and have a good time rather than to objectify/ try not to objectify everyone.

I wish women, particularly young girls, would exercise some modesty when attending Mass. Some of the outfits these youn ladies are wearing would be inappropriate at a bar, nevermind Church!

“I won’t show up in hotpants to your barbecue, you won’t wear a cleavage-bearing dress to my wine tasting, and we’ll all have a lovely time.”

This is so true!  It reminds me of the part of “Gone With The Wind” when Scarlett decides to show up to the neighbor’s barbecue in a low cut dress, not suitable to wear before three O’clock, knowing quite well she’ll stand out amongst all the other ladies.

But one aspect of “female competition” in the dressing department that you forgot to mention is the competition that can happen even amongst the admittedly Christian women who are mindful of modesty.

It’s easy to identify and point fingers at the women who, like you describe in that office scenario, are trying to out-do each other in se*iness. However, I have seen competition occur among Catholic and Christian women in terms of making sure they’re always wearing the cutest, most up-to-date fashions, and did you see my new Vera Bradley or Coach purse? This extends to cutting-edge hairstyles and highlights, fabulous shoes, acrylic nails, and who has Brighton or Pandora jewelry. There can be very, VERY subtle pressure to meet and exceed these “expectations” in order to fit in certain circles.

Granted, this kind of competition amongst women has always existed. Much of the foundation for it is laid in middle school and high school. So it’s there regardless of faith. But it’s there nonetheless, even amongst the modest. So for me, the real issue is trying to dismantle the jealousy and competition over looks and fashion that is often the root of female pride, pettiness, and judgementalism.

Now, do I think the premise that “modesty helps women become better friends” is always true? Nope. In the way you explain it, Jen, it IS true for you, because you have friends that subscribe to a certain lifestyle/standard that you all understand and “get.”

But in the way “Pilgrim” (a few comments above) describes it, there’s no way that it could be true, always. Like it or not, and whether it makes sense or not, and whether it’s charitable or not, women pick up visual clues they get from each other - clues that communicate something. In the case of Pilgrim, the visual clues she got said, “If you’re not wearing a 1920’s bathing suit or an ankle-length jeans jumper, we’re probably not gonna be hanging out any time real soon.” This is a very real problem amongst some conservative Catholics who have more stringent standards of modesty. It’s a problem because on many other accounts, some of these very-modest women have gifts that could be shared with other women in friendship, but for those who can’t get past the very-modest fashion/clothing message they see, well, they will likely never get past it to find out what’s there.

It works in reverse, as well. For myself, who is generally interested in homeschooling and is generally attracted to Catholic fellowship of a more conservative type, I’m sure the fact that I wear jeans and contemporary jewlery and (I try!) fabulous shoes - often high heeled - sends a visual message to some conservative women that I’m too wordly and too interested in materials things and perhaps, even, a shallow person more concerned with fashion than I am holiness.

It goes both ways. It all boils down to judging others, not employing charity, and making assumptions. Which is sad. But then again, what’s new amongst women?

Women dress for other women much more than they dress for men. I have always believed that.

So, yes, if a particular group of women appear to share the same standards of modesty, yes, I agree with you Jen - then modesty helps women be friends. But for women who DON’T agree on standards of modesty -  be it a lack of modesty ala the who’s-the-se*iest-in-the-office-competition OR the women who demonstrate an inordinate and excessive interest in uber-modesty - then no. In those situations, I think modesty can be a divisive issue. Which is, as we have already discovered many, many times in these discussions about pants, very true.

Charlotte - I think you read into my comment a little too much.  I said that I don’t think that they judge me, and I meant it.  My friends dress in a VERY modest way, but we hang out often, and they’ve never given me the impression of judging me or made me feel like they don’t want to be close friends because I don’t dress quite as conservatively as they do.  In fact, I’d say we are all very close friends.  Yes, I still feel awkward at the pool, but I’d rather that they wear what they feel most comfortable in or feel what is most appropriate, even if it does make me feel awkward. 

You’ve given me an interesting perspective.  I hope my presence in this “group” of friends will help other women feel welcome who also may not see the need to dress in skirts all the time, or wear a t-shirt and long shorts in the pool.  I think you make an important point about being welcome and non-judgmental, regardless of what side of the modesty line you are on.  (And doesn’t that line vary depending on where you are and who you’re with?!)

Ideally, we Christians will be united in our ideals and priorities, as Jen said, in that we all value modesty AND charity.  Hopefully disagreements on how exactly to live that out won’t be such that they are divisive.

this subject is so near and dear to my heart. I have 4 very beautiful daughters. They have been raised to see modesty as something to always strive for. Only one of them now appears to fully embrace modesty. the culture or something got ahold of them. they are adults now. I can only hope they return to their former years of modesty. I dressed “trashy” as a teenager but I was very messed up about such things. I’ve read “A Return to Modesty” by Wendy Shallitt. Good Book. It helped to explain so much of what our daughters are experiencing out there. Let’s pray Hard. Fathers have such a HUGE role in this.

This is a great perspective on the modesty issue.  I am one of “those” Catholics who chooses to follow to the last issued standards of modesty issued from Rome (skirts below knee, elbow sleeves, collar to neckbone) I notice a lot of hostility towards those of us who follow these rules.  Though there may be the random oddball who feels it’s his duty to enforce this standard on all Catholic women, I think most criticism directed towards us is unwarranted.  Speaking for myself and the like minded women I am acquainted with, we do not sit in judgement of our fellow devout Catholic women, we may pray that you’ll cover up more if that is a problem, but we are simply striving for holiness ourselves.

Katy, I’m curious as to where you live.  I know that in Texas the highs have been over 100 degrees for almost two months straight in some cities.  For someone to wear sleeves to the elbow and high necklines at all times in those temperatures, it would preclude them from going outside.  Do you live in a cooler climate that allows you to safely wear elbow-length sleeves outdoors in the middle of the afternoon?

I absolutely agree with the premise of this article.  As far as my personal standards of modesty go, I don’t like to draw attention to myself.  Whether the dress is absolutely scandalous or extremely modest, if I go too far in either direction, I will probably garner unnecessary attention.  Finding a middle ground for my particular community is my way of remaining modest- keeping the attention on the Lord rather than on my apparel.

I’m the same Jen who wrote the 1:09 PM comment.  Katy, I’m also curious, but about this: “Speaking for myself and the like minded women I am acquainted with, we do not sit in judgement of our fellow devout Catholic women, we may pray that you’ll cover up more if that is a problem, but we are simply striving for holiness ourselves.”  At what point does the clothing become a problem for you and those with like minds? That is a slippery slope…is it when there is an inch between the collarbone and the collar? Two inches? Five? I’m not asking this to pick on you, only to demonstrate that there’s a lot of gray area between what the Vatican says and what our personal levels of modesty are, especially if one ascribes to what the Vatican advises. Not to be obnoxious, but do they have a guide dictating when exactly clothing becomes immodest? Is it anything outside of their rules? There might not be a clearly defined answer as to what exactly is and is not modest—for you, or for anyone. We all have our modesty standards; they are probably as varied as all opinions.  Let’s hope and pray that when we see someone at Mass/liturgy or on the street who might be toeing the line, or far over it, that they have good hearts. Maybe it’s a cultural thing, dressing as they do, maybe they don’t know better, maybe that is all they have to wear. I know I’ve thought things when seeing people, we’ve all done it. I would hope that when I wear pants to liturgy (flowing linen ones) that no one is thinking I’m a wh*re or immodest!

Yeah, even though my husband sometimes complains that our culture is too “casual” in its dress (and much else), it sure is nice to have a group of friends where we sit and shoot the breeze and we’re all in jeans, tees, and sandals. No one thinks anything about the clothing. It’s all about the friendships. :)

Katy- can you cite where you are getting this information? I have seen this supposed standard thrown around as coming form the Church, but I haven’t seen an actual reference from a pope that was directed to the whole world of Catholics.

I keep hearing what you are saying quoted and I don’t know where its coming from. Thanks!

Another great post…!  Interesting point (and I couldn’t agree more) about how, for some women, the way they dress is akin to inciting a competition and would likely evoke a similar response in men if they advertised their salaries.  My DH works for the government, where everyone’s salary is “public record.”  I personally don’t have a clue about how one would find this information, but all of his coworkers do, and it is all known and discussed on a regular basis.  It definitely makes the relationships uneasy as a result, even though that information is not provided voluntarily.  He has also pointed out that the way many of the women dress is becoming more and more uncouth (regardless of age or body type)—short/tight skirts, tight/low-cut tops, etc.—and how distracting it is at the workplace.

I am curious how people before the age of air conditioning actually survived in places like Texas when the common clothing for men included long sleeves and pants and probably a tie and possibly a jacket and women wore clothing that covered more and had many layers.

And here we are too weak to deal with the heat when wearing elbow-length shirts and high necklines?

Katy,
If you’re praying for us, then you’ve already judged us. Why else would you be praying?

This link has all the info. on what the various popes have said through the ages about modesty. It’s pretty specific. It’s all pre-Vatican II. And I am not promoting this website or link, obviously. Just placing it here for interest’s sake.

I actually think there’s something in the catechism; I’m going to look it up and I’ll get back to you all.

Ooops, here’s the link, sorry:

http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Popesonmodesty.html

A very insightful artical. I have long marveled that women seem to dress to be noticed by each other much more than to be noticed by men. During my 30 years in corporate life, it was invariably a woman, not anothr guy, that would draw my attention to what someone else was wearing and I never understood why they paid so much attention - more than the guys I thought. This explains a lot!

If I am reading that link right, the one with the very specific standards was not by a Pope at all but by a Cardinal vicar of a Pope. The rest seem to be general exhortations to modesty, again mostly not by popes. Katy, now is your chance to prove it was proclaimed to be the standard for all Catholics by a Pope!
“so careless of the exigencies of fashion as to render yourselves ridiculous”, I think this line of de Sales is the problem with women like those described who take modesty to the extreme and are praying for us as our our tee shirts halfway up the upper arm send us to Hell. You can follow those standards and blend in fine. I have met several women like that. If you are not blending, you MAY very well have motives less than pure. Long ago I belonged to a Jesus only holiness church- no pants, no hair cutting, no jewelry. That had no effect on this kind of behavior. Every woman there wore sleeves to the elbow, skirts at least mid calf and the competition to be well dressed with a elaborate(uncut) hair-do was intense. No plain dressing for these folks. Sooo, while there is defnitely some common sense objective ideas of modesty, much of it is attitude. You can be immodest, and prideful while purposely dressing modestly and unfashionably.

Ok ya that is the quotation I have seen before…not from a pope and seems to address a specific time period. Not saying it is bad advice…but it certainly does not look like hard standards for all places for all times. Why is this being sent around as “The” standard for Catholic dress for women? As if its rules that must be followed?

But more back to the point of this post, this is a great point Jennifer. I see what you mean about women using dress to be competitive. I totally see how that is really common with dressing immodestly. I think as others have pointed out that could still happen in modestly dressed circles too. We all have to guard our hearts against competitiveness and stop making comparisons. We all need to avoid gossip and be encouraging to one another.

I wrote that I would pray for those sisters who should probably cover up more, and I frequently see such women at Mass.  (I’m talking spaghetti straps, tube tops, shorts skirts and booty shorts.)  It’s sad that women often think we’re judging them when usually it’s the other way around.  Not to mention all the quips about ugly, dowdy, frumpiness.

To answer your questions, I dressed this way when I lived in the desert of Arizona, and now in the sweltering Midwest. How did women ever survive without AC in the fashions they wore for hundreds of years? I like to think I’m still made of the same stuff as my ancestors. I admit though, when I am in the comfort of my own home I will wear short sleeves and pajama pants!

I never said a Pope gave the directives specifically, though these standards were ordered at his request.  They are easily found on the web, and I’m sure you’ve seen them before.  Like I said, I don’t sit in judgement of any Catholic who chooses not to follow these standards, I simply see the truth of them and feel led to adhere to them.

The women wearing shorts & T-shirts over their swim suits may have gained weight and not feel comfortable in a swim suit for that reason.  Also, even when very young and very slender I would wear a T-Shirt over my swim suit if the swimming party was held in the middle of the day to keep my shoulders, etc. from getting burned to a crisp.

Terrific article, Jennifer.  I have also witnessed this office dynamic and it goes all the way back to the 60s - 70s when the miniskirt came into fashion.  With all the talk about ‘respect’ these days, why don’t people seem to realize that dressing immodestly disrespects the people around you?  But then again, I don’t get this either:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk

Women will compete in their dress whether the dress is modest or revealing - if it’s modest, the competition will be about fashion, materials, cut, and (yes) cost, all indicators of power which is in most cases derivative from the men (fathers, husbands, lovers) who pay for the clothes, and hence indirectly about sexual power; if it’s revealing, the competition will be directly about sexual power, which is about the ability to attract men who have power and money.

You may prefer modesty, and the less direct competition about sexual power, but there is no difference in kind.  Men, being simple creatures, much prefer the more direct competition.

regarding AC - I spent most of the summers of my youth on my grandfathers farm in SC.  He had no AC; I never once in my life saw him in anything other than a longsleeve shirt.

Our church (an independent baptist) asks men and women in leadership positions to adhere to a standard of modesty. And asks, if you don’t feel you can, then please do not accept a leadership position.

Even still a number of our young ladies wear clothing designed to draw attention where it don’t need to be drawn.  Worse yet…the moms that dress their beginners/kindergarteners like they are teens. 

Fortunately - we had four sons so the most I fussed about was whether they had to tuck their shirtails in or not!

We dress modest because scripture says so. Not because women might get along better at the office. Dressing modestly certainly has its benefits, but pleasing the almighty God should be our motivating factor.

Amen marty!  On several occastions my wife has taught the ladies class a lesson on modesty.  Several angles…actual dress (a woman can be modest in attire, but immodest in how she carries herself); attitude (modest in attire, but immodest in conversation); and, spiritual.

She tells me…EVERY woman can tell if she is attracting inappropriate attention to herself.  But she also tells me that if a man is channel surfing a saw a dog in a push-up bra, he’d probably stop and look. :(

In working with college students as an ESL tutor, it seems that the Asian students are much more modest in dress than the Westerners. Furthermore, the Islamic students are very modest in dress and know why from their religious beliefs. Americans seem to be worst. Maybe it’s just me.

Marty - I think Scripture saying so is a very good reason to do something, but it doesn’t have to be the only reason.  Why can’t we dress modestly for both reasons?

As a woman working in a Fortune 100 company I see immodesty at work all the time. And when I see it - and comment on it to a friend - it’s because what I see is a woman with such low self esteem that she has to wear tight clothing, show off cleavage, wear revealing shirts, etc… to make herself feel better.  I also feel that, at work and at church, if your outfit is something you would wear out to a club or bar, then it is most definitely not appropriate for work or church.  And I am appalled at church - shorts, ratty t-shirts, grubby sweatshirts, jeans, etc… I grew up in a fundamentalist church with one service each Sunday - and we were required to wear our “Sunday best”; suits & ties for the men, dresses for the women. Now that I’m Catholic, that is one part of my religious background I can’t set aside, though my husband and I have modified it a bit.  He is not wearing a tie and I don’t wear dresses. Otherwise, we go to church dressed out of respect for the worship of our Lord.

And that’s what is all boils down to - self-respect plus respect of our Lord and Saviour.

Thank you Jennifer for this timely article (seems that they all are!)I plan to share it with my 11 yr old daughter who attends public school. She’s a humble, saintly girl who wears a chapel cap for Traditional Roman Mass each week, participates in theater, Girl Scouts and soccer - all the while preparing for Confirmation next June in the EF. My wife has never been a Fashonista so she’s struggling a bit too with providing guidance. I’m trying to apply these same lessons to my equally saintly 13 yr old son who is caught up in a whirlwind of worldly changes confronting him. Thanks also Commentators for your pearls of wisdom. Ave Maria! Sincerely, Michael

Dwija, I have found that no matter what the temperature, loose dresses made of linen or cotton are most comfortable.  I’ve worn shorts and sleeveless tees in the heat of a southern summer and been quite annoyed with how uncomfortable it is; however, in the same setting, a loose cotton dress (sans polyester slip, of course) is a dream to wear.  Cotton slips are available, too.  Air can circulate and when long sleeves are worn, the skin is protected from the heat of the sun, which actually feels much better than exposing the skin to the sun, especially out west. 

The Amish manage just fine working in the heat, too.

We have a problem with way-too-short skirts in our office, too - it seems to be contagious. I don’t remember the problem five years ago, but this last year, maybe two, it’s been surprising how short the skirts are getting. On casual Friday, we’re allowed to wear shorts, and most women understand that to mean “walking shorts” to the knee, but suddenly near-hot-pants are showing up.

I saw this style called “business provocative” elsewhere - great name!

I am Jewish..a cross between reform and Conservative. When I attend a Bar or Bat Mitzvah ( a right of passage ) I am absolutely amazed at the clothing, or lack there-of on the guests and even the celebrant. Spaghetti straps and strapless in a house of worship? Mini skirts and flip flops? At more than one party celebrating the event afterwards, I found myself going up to girls and tapping them on the shoulder and telling them what color underwear they were wearing… evidence that when jumping up and down dancing, their attire was too short. When did parents stop being parents, and saying… NO, that is inappropriate! So they throw a fit when they are out shopping. Don’t buy them what they want to just quiet them down. Stand firm and lead by example.

The Jesus I learned about in school never talked this concept of modest dress and it sounds to me as if the problem is not what other people are wearing but how it makes others feel and it must be pointed out, that is the problem of “Others”, not the person wearing the outfit.  Jesus welcomed those who were thought of as scandalous by society at that time.  Instead of teaching our children to worry about what they and others wear we should be teaching them to love themselves and others as God has created them.  Then perhaps we can save them from the insecurity that leads to the kind of “competition” between women discussed in this piece.

Our Lady of Fatima told Jacinta, “Certain fashions will be introduced which will offend my Son very much. More people go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason.”  There is also a wonderful book ‘Dressing with Dignity’ which addresses the reasons for modesty as well as how we have gone so far off track.

David N - have you read what the Catechism writes concerning modesty?  There’s a really good section on this.  (And it isn’t just modesty in dress that is explained.)  But modesty has to do with the dignity of the person, including both the person wearing modest or immodest clothing and the person it affects. 

Christ welcomed those who caused scandal, but did he not command the woman caught in adultery to “sin no more”?

I would argue that teaching children to love themselves as God created them must include a healthy sense of modesty - respect for one’s own dignity.

I agree though my church (SDA) is very different from catholic modesty is pretty important. Love this post!!

Men are obviously physically attracted to women and especially to those who flaunt their curves, but men do not marry women to whom they are merely physically attracted. They marry a woman they have connected to at the heart level, which is why a married woman who takes care to keep this connection with her husband strong need never worry that he will wander off with some other woman, no matter how attractive she might be to look at and no matter how old and even frumpy the wife is. Therefore, once a married woman realises this (and even the single woman who is trying to attract a husband) she will stop obsessing over other women’s looks/clothes etc, feel more confident in herself and therefore be more attractive to men (especially her husband) at a deeper level. I wish someone would write an article along these lines. Any spouse who feels connected to their husband/wife is not going to commit adultery, unless they are a completely unprincipaled person.

“The Jesus I learned about in school never talked this concept of modest dress and it sounds to me as if the problem is not what other people are wearing but how it makes others feel and it must be pointed out, that is the problem of “Others”, not the person wearing the outfit.”

The Jesus I learned about at school founded a Church which has the right to govern its members and has done so for nearly 2000 years, including discussion of appropriate clothing, though, as I pointed out before, there is no need for as much insecuruty/competition in this area as there currently is.

But I do agree with the basic message of this post that modesty helps women to be friends.

I wish someone would forward this to the hotties that expose themselves daily on the Fox News Network. Greta and Shannon seem to be the only ones who know that a serious news woman should not get in front of the camera dressed like she’s going to a cocktail party.

Pilgrim:  I commend you for wearing a normal swimsuit amongst women who wear t-shirts and shorts.  Modesty has been a difficult journey for me and I have often been reprimanded for going against the “Church’s teaching” on modesty as if the Church has a formal dress code (I am not talking about just the way you dress at Mass, but everywhere).  I also agree that it depends on where you are!  Obviously you wouldn’t wear a swimsuit to Mass or even to the mall.  I think it’s fine if people want to wear skirts/dresses all the time, but feel it is wrong to say I am sinning by wearing pants or even a sleeveless shirt. 

Some words of wisdom:

“While we are on the subject of dress and its relevance to the problem of modesty and immodesty it is worth drawing attention to the functional significance of differences in attire. There are certain objective situations in which even total nudity of the body is not immodest, since the proper function of nakedness in this context is not to provoke a reaction to the person as an object for enjoyment, and in just the same way the functions of particular forms of attire may vary. Thus, the body may be partially bared for physical labour, for bathing, or for a medical examination. If then we wish to pass a moral judgement on particular forms of dress we have to start from the particular functions which they serve. When a person uses such a form of dress in accordance with its objective function we cannot claim to see anything immodest in it, even if it involves partial nudity. Whereas the use of such a costume outside its proper context is immodest, and is inevitably felt to be so. For example, there is nothing immodest about the use of a bathing costume at a bathing place, but to wear it in the street or while out for a walk is contrary to the dictates of modesty.”

  —- from Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla (aka Pope John Paul II)

Thank you for an excellent post, Jen.

I agree with so many who have stated that they are appalled by the way some young ladies dress, most especially at Mass.  Mothers and fathers . . . please, please teach your daughters where their self-worth really lies.  It is entirely up to you and it is never too late to start.

Natalie - thanks so much for your words!  I really liked the quote from “Love and Responsibility.”

In military life we have dress-codes.  Every function has a specific dress code assigned.  For example, coctail, formal, casual, civilian casual, etc.  We are prohibitied from wearing exercise clothes and short shorts, short skirts and tank tops to the commissary or exchange. 
It all really about appropriateness.  What I would wear out on date night with my husband (not hoochie mama by any stretch of the imagination but still attractive by modern standards… and for him), I would never wear to homeschool co-op, Mass,  dinner with our priest or even the nighborhood barbeque.
I think it’s about being aware of how our actions and our dress may impact others.  It’s about being considerate. 
Polite society used to have standards in daily dress.  We still have those standards in military life, and I don’t think it’s “prudish” or controlling to just hope that people think of others and MAKE THE EFFORT to appear appropriate so that (as Jen states) your dress, body, attire is not the focus of attention.

Pure Fashion is a good website for parents who are looking for guidelines for their teens for modesty.  While it is written for runway “models” the same guidelines would be appropriate for Mass.  We have had a couple of teen extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist who have dressed in skin tight dresses. Drives me nuts because I know it is distracting to anyone coming up to receive our Lord.  I went over the Pure Fashion guidelines with my small confirmation discussion group (all girls) just to try to avoid this problem in the future.

While the dresses shown in the article photo might be modest in some sense, that doesn’t mean they’re not distracting, hard on the eyes with crazy patterns, or designed to get attention, compete, etc.  And let’s not forget the makeup.  Some people report that lipstick is designed to make women’s lips look like aroused labia.  If so, do you wipe it off your face before approaching the Lord?  And why are the women in the photo raising their dresses like that?  What is behind that kind of behavior?  Is it some kind of faux modesty intended to titillate while passing some legalistic fashion standard?  Is it some kind of mating dance?  Perhaps some women can answer these mysteries.  Then, there are the Catholic schools where all the girls prance about in school-sanctioned miniskirt uniforms.  Was that done so that there’d be no competition?  Or is it just part of “the refreshing Catholic culture”.

Tim: I have never, ever, heard your explanation of what lipstick on women is supposed to signify. If so, it would be objectionable, indeed. I think, however, this is a huge, depraved attempt to vilify the wearing of makeup & furthermore, has now given me a very disturbing image to combat when thinking of wearing lipstick. Ugh. Didn’t need that. And I thought the makeup on the women the picture was quite restrained & natural looking. I would consider their dresses to be “happy & cheerful” rather than examples of sirens or vixens garnering attention for immoral purposes. Certainly, I can allow for differences of opinion & interpretation, but I found your interpretation of the photo to be quite unaccountably harsh.

Melissa, I can consider their dresses to be “happy & cheerful” too, but that doesn’t mean the wild patterns don’t cause people’s eyes to cross, or that everyone thinks sleeveless dresses are modest for weekly church services, or that the clothing and acting in the photo were not staged for attention’s sake or to make some kind of less-than-entirely-modest fashion statement.  After all, the photo is much like many a staged photoshoot picture with models (call them “sirens” and “vixens” if you want).  Perhaps their makeup is “restrained” by some standards, but I also know people who’d perhaps call it clownish or inappropriate for church, i.e. Jezebel.  Just recently a man in earshot of the model said that he wished he could wipe the makeup off her face, and her makeup wasn’t much different than in the photo.  Some might call that “harsh”, but some might actually say the emperor has no clothes.  How does one account for tastes in fashion?

I might also consider the woman’s dress to be photoshopped, as in perhaps, quoting from the article, someone’s attempt in “bringing an air of peace to a gathering of women”.  While taking a closer look at the article photo, I found (under keyword “glamour”, not “modesty”) what seems to be the “unaltered” / “original” stock photography image.  It shows the women in big high heels (fortunately not lucite), lifting (on left and right) their dresses to hip level, and indeed exposing the undergarment.  And so I might also say that the photo of the women apparently does have an “air” (facade) of someone’s notion of “modesty”, however quaint it may be.  For example, the lower right corner of the article photo may look ununsual where portions of her dress were seemingly “cloned”, over what is instead her exposed undergarment in the original.  So perhaps we might wonder, does such photoshopped modesty really “help women be friends”?  Or is it just putting on airs. (And for clarity, in my previous post, “in earshot of the model” refers to a model, but not one of the models in the article photo. Thank you.)

Melissa, your incident with the popcorn reminds me of the day a group of us went to the firing range.  My mother-in-law was given a gun to fire like one she had fired as a kid.  She fired the gun and the cartridge ejected and landed right into her cleavage!  Now I’m not a gun person so I was completely unprepared for what happened next.  She started yelling and hopping around shoving her left hand down her cleavage and waving the gun around.  I have never seen people move so fast in my life!  People dropped to the ground like they’d been hit by a flyswatter!  My brother-in-law grabbed her right hand and shoved it up into the air and the two of them proceeded to do a weird rendition of the tango.  He finally got the gun out of her hand and I, in my naivety, looked around at the chaos and said “What on earth happened?” Turns out those cartridges get extremely hot when they are fired.  She had a pretty bad burn on her left breast.  Moral of this tale…You never know what will fly down your shirt, so keep it covered!

Jen, thank you so much for this article about how modesty helps us all be friends. It’s very true and quite worth writing. Now, will you or someone please remove Tim’s lipstick comment? That was sick and disgusting, not at all true, vulgar and disrespectful to women. Thank you.

Melissa, the lipstick theory is alleged by a number of anthropologists, sociologists, behaviorists and others.  Whether it’s true or not is not up to you.  It’s up to reality.  You can read more about it in the book “The Naked Ape: A Zoologist’s Study of the Human Animal” by Desmond Morris.  You can also read about it in the book, “Lipstick”, by Jessica Pallingston, or read “Body Packaging” by fashion sociologist Julian Robinson, or “Sexy Origina and Intimate Things” by Charles Panati, or dozens of others.  And if you did not know, the word “lip” itself comes from the Latin word “labium”, and the primary definition of the word “labia” found in Webster’s dictionary is “lip”.  Whether you find that “sick and disgusting” or not, the fact is that your lips are labia, and every time you put lipstick on your lips, you are in fact putting it on your labia.  If what you read sounds “sick and disgusting” to you, realize it is a manifestation of your internal thinking.  As Jesus said, “First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.”  The same applies to what you wear.  Do not be “like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.”

Tim: your misogyny is palpable. You should stop filling your head with garbage and maybe it will stop spewing from your mouth.

Melissa, however you view my posts is a reflection of yourself.  To the pure, all things are pure.  If the painted ladies arrive, I say rejoice!  If they pull their skirts up to show their undergarments, I say rejoice!  If they whitewash their wardrobes, I say rejoice!  If you call me a misogynist, I say rejoice!  In every circumstance, I say rejoice and give thanks!  Bless you!

I guess there is disagreement among Popes.  Someone a while back quoted John Paul II as not holding modesty to such exact standards.  I found this on a blog, however:

It was from Pope Pius XI’s universal standard that an American priest, Fr. Bernard A. Kunkle, developed “The Mary Standards For Modesty in Dress.” Fr. Kinkle’s Marylike standards were submitted to the discretion of the Church, and, as a result, on December 8, 1944 with full ecclesiastical approval, the “Marylike Modesty Crusade” was born. On two separate occasions Pope Pius XII imparted his Apostolic Blessing upon the Crusade. In his blessing he called the Crusade a “laudable movement for modesty in dress and behaviour,” and extended that blessing “to all who further it”.

I think what’s most helpful about having some kind of standards is that it provides some kind of yardstick to apply to everyday life.  They provide some kind of guidance for women, who may not understand what is modest because they are not men and don’t have men’s visual perception of women.

What I don’t understand is why some people seem to be upset when women choose to follow these standards of modesty.  Is that threatening in some way?  I think maybe it is threatening because their conviction and their attempt to live their faith is a tangible reminder to others that perhaps they do not have such clear standards in their own lives.  Do you think that is possible?  After all, if “modest” is determined by whatever we personally judge to be modest, then it may vary a lot, depending on how we feel or how we rationalize it that day.  If we hold ourselves to certain standards, it becomes much easier to decide what is actually truly modest and humbles us, holding us accountable for our dress in a very tangible way.

By the way, I don’t think the standards are meant to be legalistic or imposing in any sort of harsh, restrictive way.  They simply outline a picture of how a modest woman might dress.

I, too, am really appalled by the miniskirts at Catholic schools.  I just don’t understand how that kind of dress can be advocated by schools that claim to adhere to religious standards.  But maybe people just don’t realize that these skirts are not as modest as they might be…?  I don’t know.

Thanks!  Interesting discussion!

I love the premise of this article, Jennifer, and I couldn’t agree more.  Except with one little thing… I’m not so convinced that the average Catholic woman has modesty built into her thinking and wardrobe as compared with the rest of society.  I wish that were true, but from what I see, it isn’t.  Every Sunday at mass, I see women of every age wearing the most immodest and inappropriate dress.  Cleavage down to there, skirts up to here, backless, braless, lingerie on display, all of it screaming “Sex!”  And this is what they wear to CHURCH!  To Mass, to celebrate the Eucharist!!  Yikes!

Great article! Believe it or not, some girls dress inappropriately and are completely unaware that it is offensive. We need to give grace to other women and not just assume that they dress with wrong motives. Lovingly discussing this in teen settings, Sunday School classes and on forums like this will help to inform girls, but let’s be careful not to be holier than thou in our attitudes towards half dressed young women.Keep writing!

Soon after our daughter was done nursing my wife really became sensitive about her chest size. She has always been opposed to plastic surgery and it never really tempted her until lately. It was pretty obvious to us that satan was attacking her weakness. Some of her friends got implants and it really surprised her because these were not girls that she thought would do that. However, what surprised me the most was when my wife said “how do they think of me then, since I don’t get implants” It is actually offensive to her because she feels now that she is not up to their standards. I’m so happy that keeping up with the jones’ isn’t her priority.

“For women to embrace modesty is to declare a truce with one another.”

I disagree…. I try to dress modestly, but when I’m with other women who do all I can think is, “Is my skirt [that’s modest by ‘real world standards’] too short?? Am I the least modest one here? Am I being judged?” and that sort of thing. Modesty definitely has its own sort of elitism and competition.

Natalie, I agree!!!  If everyone is on the same exact page in regards to what modesty is, then it would be a different story. I have lost many friends who insist the Church has a dress code and tell me I am sinning because I’m not adhering to it even if I am dressed modestly.  I also think the word “modest” is sometimes confused with the word “covered” and women think they are more modest and more holy when they are really just more covered.  Modesty is more than the way we dress- it’s the way we act as well.  Keep fighting the good fight.

I don’t particularly agree with the reasoning in this article. It could very well be that peer pressure even in adult women could play a role in the choice of “immodest” clothing, but isn’t it peer pressure that sometimes influences women to choose clothing that is deemed appropriate? I’m just starting college in the fall and among the friends I’ve had since grade school most of them wear bikinis. I have no problem with this and neither do my friends, boys and girls alike, because none of us are the kind of kids that think about each other lustfully. The bikinis that these girls wear are designed so that it is comfortable to swim and tan when it is blazing hot out. It is only other girls that are scandalized by this, in my experience, and they look down on those girls as if they were sex-crazed maniacs. For Pete’s sake, it’s just a swimsuit and it fits the purpose.

Ladies, I so enjoyed your comments! A friend, Christi, told me about this post and both the post and comments were excellent..and graciously shared.

I read every one and plan to share this with my 20 yr.old daughter. Her standards have not been what they once were, and I’d like her to get introduced to a different perspective..one that is balanced.

Having said, that, I agree that the man, Tim, needs his comments removed. His heart is not right or he wouldn’t be expressing such explicit sources or sentiments.  I could never recommend my daughter to come read this unless they were gone.

Me thinks he doth protest too much…  That’s the first thought that comes to mind.  He’s scary..no question about that.

Ahhh, you make me laugh! I had to email the analogy of men with income name-tags to my husband.  :-)

I seek audio about the benefits of modesty, youth directed. I handle programming at a youth-oriented radio station.
My addy: email (at) renegaderadio.org

Good article.  I don’t think it’s judging to pray for women that dress immodestly.  That’s what a priest told me to do.  It was causing me a lot of distraction at Mass.  I actually was juding them then - thinking they had no common sense, had no class, and calling them trashy names in my mind.  When I did pray for them, I asked the Holy Spirit to change their way of thinking about themselves and their bodies like He did me. I was once a woman that dressed seductively and always followed the latest trends.  Now I dress modestly but still fashionable.  I have a lot of fashion sense, so maybe I find it easier than other women to find modest clothes.  If only women would dress modestly at least at Mass and especially if you’re a Eucharistic minister.  A young attactive female Eucharistic miniser at my church likes to wear the same, real low cut (not just a bit) dress everytime she serves Holy Communion. I had to receive from her once and it was very uncomfortable.  She caused me to sin because I was thinking - what is wrong with you.  I now only receive Holy Communion from the deacon or the priest.  See how one woman can ruin it for others.

Here in Southern California I have been scandalized by the short-shorts and tube tops worn by the teenage girls at my parish.  OK - at least they are attending Holy Mass.  Recently during vacation also in SoCal but another Diocese, I was refreshed to see a prominent sign displayed in the Church lobby and also printed in the weekly bulletin:

“From the Pastor:  Dress Guidelines in Church.  Out of respect for Our Lord and your Neighbor, it is requested that men and women, boys and girls dress modestly.  The way we dress at Church becomes especially germane during the summer months.  So please avoid short shorts, tank tops, spaghetti straps, low cut, backless, mini-dresses, halters, bare midriffs, tight fitting clothes etc.  Everyone is welcome at Sacred Heart, and all that we ask is that your dress reflects our respect for Our Lord and each other.”

Well that says it all doesn’t it?!

This article is very true in that it gives good points about the importants of modesty. As an 18 year old I know that women are the pinnacle and the beauty of God’s creation. For a long time however and this is espeashly prevelent with teenagers pornography consumed me and tried to currupt my view of what a beautful woman was. Ladies it helps men SOOOO much when you respect yourselves by how you dress. I want to look at YOU not just your body. Jennifer thank you for being a great watch dog for Catholic women in this day and age.

I enjoyed the fresh perspective on this topic that the blogger provided, and I was admiring the obvious intelligence and thoughtfulness of the women who were responding to it (particularly the nice quotes from some of our saints)when I was drawn up short by “Tim’s” salacious comments.  CLEARLY his motives for posting are not pure by any means.  It seems apparent that he is enjoying scandalizing a group of good and holy women.  His posts should be removed.

Is this why the Middle East is the most peaceful region of the world?

This argument for modesty really doesn’t hold water when compared with my own experiences. For example, I belonged to a group of young people (Unitarian Universalist youth, prior to my conversion to the Catholic faith.

The young women in this group of youth, myself included, had no concern for modesty. We dressed in many articles that could have been considered inappropriate in many occasions, and we also had a few (later punished) times where we went skinny dipping and had showers as a group.

Yet we were closer to each other and I felt closer to those people than I have ever felt to anyone since I have started being concerned with modesty and appropriateness and being a good Catholic.

I’m not saying don’t argue for modesty, but I am saying that it might be a good idea to pick an argument that makes sense. Being comfortable with your own body does not necessitate competition, and competition is not what it’s about. It’s simply about being comfortable in hot weather. (or are men competing with each other when they remove their shirts?)

Perhaps a better example would be the beach. Generally when at the beach with my friends (male or female), we wear bathing suits (and yes some do wear bikinis) and yet the only competitions we find ourselves engaged in seem to center around a beach volleyball and who can get into that COLD! water first and not be the wimp.

Whereas in the Catholic Church, women seem to look around at one another and judge each other (gasp! she covers her head in Church, she must be a crazy conservative. or gasp! she doesn’t cover her shoulders in Church, she must be a slut. or gasp! she’s not dressed up in an outfit that cost more than a hundred dollars, she must not really love Jesus or she wouldn’t wear such plain clothes!)

Anyway. Yeah. I love Christ and He is the greatest romance in my life, but I hate all these stupid nit-picky arguments and especially when I find arguments that are not grounded in fact or reality, sometimes it leaves me wondering if stupidity was a requirement I forgot about before agreeing to be baptized.

Cao

@ Sam

I just saw your comment. May I say, LOL!!!!

I agree. Afghanistan clearly has something we don’t. Iraq, Saudia Arabia and Iran, too.

Obviously they are more peaceful than we are, since their women dress much more modestly than North American and European women tend to. No one can argue with that. :)

Cao

Wonderful article!
PLEASE remove Tim’s comments. They are disgusting and, if anything, detract from the overall post.

Cleanliness is not as next to godliness as modesty is next to godliness.

The flood of immodesty and its false and empty promises from our secular culture has seeped into the Church. People are lulled into thinking, if everybody is doing it, it must be right. Pagan society is setting the standard of dress and behavior that has no use for God. Catholics don’t appear to be any different than anyone else.

As people are willing to “go along” with our pagan society, they are losing the understanding of what it really means to be Catholic.

The teachings of the Catholic Church are counter-cultural.

I know that priests have a lot on their plates, but by not speaking out, from the pulpit or even in weekly bulletins on the subject of the proper way to dress for Mass, then where will these Catholics get message from?  Even St.Peters in Rome, insists on modest dress, or else you can’t come in.  We need priests to set the standard for the appropriate way to dress for Mass while we’re in the presence of God.  Let’s pray for priests, we need them.

I agree that modesty makes female friendships run smoother. I disagree with the masses that this “Tim” guy is a misogynist, “CLEARLY” having impure motives for his posts, etc etc. He merely pointed out some things not everybody likes to consider, then proceeded to give plenty sources and blessings.
But I guess taking a closer look at these things (God forbid we should reconsider painting our lips) or even respectfully disagreeing is too much to ask?
Seriously, how DOES explaining lipstick even begin to translate into misogyny?
*shakes head*

We have a nun in our church who shows off cleavage, and she’s old. It’s really uncomfortable.

Well I certainly have some strong opinions on modesty. I definately agree with the 3/4 sleeves, skirts no higher than the knees, nothing clingy or tight, no cleavage, nd I believe we ought to wear veils as well. As far as it being “too hot” to wear 3/4 inch sleeves, we may want to consider our ancestors who had no air conditioning and wore ankle length long sleeved dresses lined with long bloomers and petticoats. Surely we can accomodate 3/4 lengthed sleeves in 100 degrees when we put ourselves in air conditioned cars and go inside air conditioned buildings.As far as veils go, I myself had some qualms about this for awhile. The Lord brought it to my attention on several occaisions, a gentle prodding if you will. He made me think of the beauty of His sacrifice on the cross( dare I complain of discomfort in dress?). He reminded me of how the beauty of each mass is like attending a beautiful wedding feast. We all get to be Christ’s bride at the wedding! The Lord gently put in my heart and mind,” The bride always wears a veil.” How can I argue with that? As little girls we always dream of beautiful weddings, but as catholics we have an opportunity to be a special most cherished bride every day. Most women prepare months in planning their weddings, but all Jesus wants is the beauty of the dignity He created which is your adornment of modesty crowned with a veil of holiness. :)

One of my volunteer jobs involves helping the homeless (mostly men). I usually wear something like jeans and a t-shirt to do that, but I have been wearing long skirts more often and this past Thursday I wore a nice long modest skirt and blouse. The reaction seemed positive and respectful. I think there is a positive impact of dressing in a way both feminine and modest. And in the milieu of the homeless, that is such an uncommon thing that I think it also made them feel respected, as well as them acting respectfully toward me.

Thanks for the article Jen. I think it is great that it approaches the issue of modesty in a way that most people probably do not consider at first glance.

@Caoimhe
I don’t understand your objections.  The examples that Jennifer puts forward are in social settings where not all of the women are the closest of friends already (i.e. the office, wine-tasting), but places where they might develop friendships if they don’t feel like they are competing for attention.  In your example, you are already good friends with everyone.  The tension develops between acquaintances, not close friends who are comfortable enough to address any issues of dress directly.
Perhaps I’m wrong.  Not having been a woman, I don’t know all of the pressures here, so I might be guessing incorrectly.  My wife says that she agrees though.
There is nothing wrong with plain clothes in Mass.  There is something wrong with clothes that are designed to incite lust, even if the wearer didn’t have that consciously in mind.  Having personally attended Mass in everything from a tux to muddy jeans covered in tiger dung, I think the matter should be that you dress the best you can.  You are going to see your creator, after all. Sometimes, the circumstances are not the best, but that is between you and God.  If you honestly feel that you’ve done the best you could to dress well and dress modestly, then you’ve met your requirement.
As for the issue of Islam being the most peaceful because their women dress more “modestly”, please do be serious.  This was an article about relationships between women and other women, not between nations and political extremists.  The comparison is completely unfounded and suggests a misunderstanding on what is meant by modesty.  C.S. Lewis has a good commentary about it in Mere Christianity.  Please understand that modesty is not about how much skin someone shows, but how they present themselves, especially in comparison to those in their own society.

I’m not Catholic - I belong to a Reform Jewish congregation in the south.  While most of the regular members dress with some sense of propriety, I have been appalled to see what shows up at a Bar or Bat Mitzvah, which will typically include many who are not synagogue members (or may not even be Jewish): teen age girls in minis and four inch heels, moms in skin-tight pants (was she even wearing a thong???) and low cut tops.  A house of worship is not an after-hours watering hole, and provocative dress has no place there. God knows what you look like, and the rest of us don’t need to be finding out on Saturday - or Sunday - morning!

A lot of mixed thoughts.  On one hand, I think we have a responsibility to help each other out with the difficulities of not sinning, and dressing provocatively does breach that responsibility.  On the other…why are we paying so much attention to random other people?  Do we think we can do that and still pay adequate attention to our own deportment and the Mass?  A few of these posts border dangerously on gossip, if only a name was attached (Omigosh, Cindy, you will never believe what Julie was wearing to church yesterday!  She what?  No waaay!).  I’m just saying, let’s tread carefully…perhaps concerning ourselves first of all with being a good example to our immediate family and friends.

Tim—rosy lips are like rosy cheeks, straight nails and shiny hair.  They’re signs of HEALTH.  Too much pallor can indicate sickness.  Which is not at all insignificant in mating, but is a lot less shocking an explanation and not something any one of us needs to feel bad about.

Jennifer… where in the world do you live??? Tampa is where I live.. .Here’s our forecast… http://www.baynews9.com/weather/forecast
I might mention that it is like that until the middle of October.  We wear nice tank tops to Mass and nice skirts.  We are not hanging out of them.  They cover 80 percent of our shoulders and most of the time we have a shawl. 

Second of all and most of all I would like to know WHY IN THE WORLD ARE MOST CHURCHES ALLOWING BUSTIER NO SLEEVE WEDDING DRESSES?????? I ROLL MY EYES IN ABSOLUTE DISGUST AT YOU ALL WHO SEAR AND CHER MODESTY YET ALLOW YOUR GALS TO GET MARRIED LOOKING LIKE YOUR BOOBS ARE HANGING OUT OF THE FRONT OF YOUR DRESS IN FRONT OF THE BLESSED SACRAMENT??? 

I am shouting this because no one is listening and it is a double standard.  It is also a double standard to tell anyone in Florida or other hot states modesty, while you all have gotten married with these type of dresses.  Nothing wrong with your bosoms hanging out while you scream that my business tank top with my skirt to my knee IS BAD or that I am a going to hell Catholic because I have adapted to my weather.

Right?  What happened to modest wedding dresses?  I haven’t see any in years???  There was one at the Royal Wedding…. 

The ones out there in question… look like uniforms of rebellion.

I don’t see you living down here.

I just read a similiar article a week ago about this same thing. I know it is a dart from satan to seperate women from women. Older women are suppose to be leaders and have the wisdom to teach the younger women truths that we need to survive in this world. If we so full of ourselves and unwilling to listen to advise on modesty(or anything else) we definitely won’t have the ability to be friends with other women. No one really wants to be told what to do these days. The proverbs says it is a fool that despises criticism. Of course, there is the judgemental criticism but I am talking about the valuable kind that changes lives. No one is perfect and all are in need to guiding at some time in life. I am thankful to all the women who have been examples to me. Who wants to be labeled a “silly woman”? And yet, our country is filled with them….christian and unchristian.

Hey Jennifer,
Don’t know if you’ll see this comment or not, BUT…..

Isn’t it amazing how these blog posts ALWAYS descend into women making proclamations about what they wear ala “I adhere to the 3/4 length sleeves and I’m just fine….” And then someone having to mention that they attend the Latin mass, trying to get in their little dig against other well-meaning Catholics. Plus the cliche observations about people in 1940 wearing long-sleeve shirts in the south with no A/C, etc.

For me, it’s so tiring. Your post was about modesty as it specifically pertains to female friendship, but as usual, it goes off the rails in these commboxes. Which is why if *I* were the one blogging, I would skip these modesty topics all-together. Not telling you what to do, of course, but it just seems to me that if the word “modesty” is mentioned once, well then, weird people come out of the cracks and it all starts to go downhill. Very predictable. It would almost be better to have the blog post with no comments, though I know you wouldn’t want that.

This topic has been beaten to death on the biggie Catholic media blogs. It always ends up the same. Besides, it all boils down to common sense and personal comfort levels anyway. All these posts do is open up the door to distance/anonymous judgementalism by women against other women.

You’ll laugh because *I’m* the one saying this, but someone needs to do a Catholic blog post about why women just can’t be quiet and stop picking on other women. That would be an interesting commbox for sure! : )

what in all the Lord’s creation do you mean by “silly women”?  I didn’t write anything silly.. common sense. 

Please define “silly women”?  I also am still wondering why no one wants to take on what I said about modesty in wedding dresses?

Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Everyone, hold on a minute! 

To kerath25, from his post on Monday, Aug 15, 2011 9:57 AM:

“Having personally attended Mass in everything from a tux to muddy jeans covered in tiger dung…”

That’s it.  I’ve GOT to hear the story behind going to Mass in muddy tiger-dung-stained pants.  Please?

Yes, I love modesty in a young woman—it makes seduction much more of a pleasure.

Very thoughtful article.  It points out an aspect of modesty I had not considered, but I find to be true.  The subtle competition between women can be increased or diminished because of modest attire.  How useful for teens to know, too.  I have a blog for teens who want to be stylish and modest—www.TeenStyleU.com   May I link to your blog from my site?  And if you check out www.TeenStyleU.com and inf it compatible with your audience, will you be willing to link to it?  Thanks!

Very thoughtful article.  It points out an aspect of modesty I had not considered, but I find to be true.  The subtle competition between women can be increased or diminished because of modest attire.  How useful for teens to know, too.  I have a blog for teens who want to be stylish and modest—  May I link to your blog from my site?  And if you check out my blog and find it compatible with your audience, will you be willing to link to it?  Thanks!

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IMMODEST DRESSES AND THE shoulders are not covered. DISRESPECT for the Blessed Sacrament. You might as well walk down the aisle WITH NOTHING.

When this crowd was born, we wore long sleeve and my prom spaghetti strap ball gown in 81 covered more than those dresses.

If we wore strapless at Mass every week on a Sunday, you all with your chapel veils would come out and cover our shoulders.

HYPOCRITES.!!!!!!!!!!  What or why are you doing this????