Thank you!  I have been ‘done’ more than once and am grateful for God’s patience in leading me to a different mindset that has resulted in 11 kids - my ‘last’ one is now 5 years old and arrived when I was 45 years old.  At this point, it seems both God and my body have decided we are done, but I’ll admit that my heart isn’t quite there.

So true, I get the question all the time and I have to admit that my mind thinks “I can’t imagine being pregnant right now”, mostly because my one almost two year old is in a really busy stage.  But I’m experienced enough to know this stage will pass (I have four other children besides him).  I usually answer with “well, we’re not currently trying but I’m not willing to say we’re done because I don’t know what our future holds”.  They will sometimes proceed to tell me they definitely know they are “done”, which I always find facinating because they usually are younger than me with less children.  I’m not saying everyone has to have as many kids as I have, but it makes me sad because they can’t see how their thoughts or station in life could change in 2, 5, or 10 years.

I should add that many times I hear this from moms of two under the age of 5 and I always tell them this is the worse time to make that kind of decision.  I tell them that this is one of the hardest seasons of mothering, when they don’t have older kids to help yet and it’s a very busy time, to not make permanent decisions during this time because it will pass and they may regret it then.

I am done.  Although I am 49 and not sure if I am fertile or not since my Clear Blue monitor never shows a peak but I still have regular periods, my husband and I stay on the very very safe side and don’t have relations very much.  I have major health problems.  My kids have health problems.  I have no family in the area to help.  We don’t have the financial means to hire a lot of help.  I am various medications that I need to be on.  I am done.  Sorry.

I was devastated when one of the few Catholic friends I have told me she was having her tubes tied immediately after the scheduled c-section of their third child.  She also had a blood clotting disorder that required two daily injections of blood thinners.  When I suggested NFP, she said it was too hard, “you know, having to take your temp at the same time each day” so on and so forth.  Our relationship has never been the same, and it has been very discouraging.  The NFP lifestyle requires a lot of support from family and friends and my husband and I have very little.

I am the same Anonymous above and wanted to add in case it wasn’t clear that we use NFP with the Marquette method.  Even so, we only have relations 4 - 5 times a year just to be safe.  If I got pregnant and survived the pregnancy I would have to give the baby up for adoption which would kill my other kids but there would be no way I could take care of a baby in my situation.  So my point is, there are situations that warrant being done and we are one of them.  You can never tell someone else they should or shouldn’t be done.  And we are done.

I’m past the child-bearing years, but just want to say:  What a great article!
In a culture that tells us, on the one hand:  “...for the good of the children…”  and (hypocritically) on the other hand, pushes unhealthy contraceptives and unnatural barrier gadgets, sterility and abortion, how refreshing to read an article which tells the truth.  God bless you.

We were “done” after two.  Then our contraception failed and we had #3.  She was so great that we decided to have #4.  We were definitely “done” then.  But we bent an NFP rule and what was a 1% chance of getting pregnant became #5.  Let’s just say that I have learned some humility before the Lord.
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So, when people ask me if we are “done”, I tell them that we will not be intentionally seeking another pregnancy at this time.  I invested in a fertility monitor to switch from STM to Marquette, and we will be following the rules to the letter.  If our circumstances were to change in a few years,though, it’s not impossible that we could decide to seek another pregnancy. 
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It is very discouraging, though, when Catholic acquaintances admit to being “done” and the husbands getting “fixed”.  I was recently put in this position of learning this two days before the husband was scheduled.  I was able to get the wife alone and humbly ask for her and her husband to pray about this more (assuming that they had at all), but it was to no avail.
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I think the hardest thing to accept is not that Catholics would choose to use contraception or get sterilized even when they have been taught that it is wrong.  I can totally understand that this can sometimes be a battle between fear and faith.  The hardest thing was watching the other Catholic families laugh and joke about the man recovering from his vasectomy as if there was nothing wrong at all with what he did, and hearing another Catholic man admit to having it done.  I just don’t find mortal sin very funny.

Anonymous: At age 49, your fertility is virtually nil. (I believe your chances of getting pregnant are < 1%, even if you wanted to.) This is why your monitor is not showing a peak. You are probably biologically done.

But it does appear that your fear is keeping your from enjoying your marriage.

Anonymous: you say you are “sorry” that you are done. In my opinion, you owe no apology to anyone. Only each person can know what is right for them, regardless of their reasons. We are all marvelous individuals who make decisions based on our situations, our fear or faith and ultimately what is right for us. And with due respect to Barbara C. - “getting the wife alone” seems like a total invasion of her privacy. The decision they made was theirs to make. And any pennance they do is between them and God.

This is a kind and deeply personal article, but it goes against Catholic teaching.  If you want to pretend that it’s ok to say no to your fertility, that’s between you and God, but to express that it’s ok to avoid pregnancy long term, publicly and assume that it is ok and not a mortal sin to avoid pregnancy, is irresponsible. 

As a woman who made the mistake of tying my tubes when I was 23 yrs old, I feel a deep, deep sense of guilt and longing for obedience.  The love making and the intimacy between my husband and me is shadowed by the fact that we willingly stopped at three and selfishly thought of our own pleasures without responsibility - worse that animals.  At least animals have sex to procreate.  Three children who are married and have moved on with their own lives while we are only in our early 40’s.  Our disobedience was out of ignorance, but this article removes ignorance and offers the opportunity of disobedience out of rebellion.

It is not ok to close off your marriage to children until Our Creator says it’s ok.  Don’t like the message?  Don’t kill the messenger.  The Catholic Church teaches this and anyone, even priests, who say otherwise are being irresponsible.

God bless you with discernment and obedience.

James, yes, it’s true our fear has been keeping us from fully enjoying our physical relationship for that last 8 years or so since the last baby and we started playing it safe.  I say “fully” because we actually have a very strong marriage (don’t be shocked!).  I definitely think we are living God’s will and making the right decisions because we have a close-knit family and we are all close to the Lord.  One of my kids is thinking of being a priest.  So the sacrifice of some sex is more than made up for by being there for my kids (which includes homeschooling)and raising up saints.  If I was in the hospital all the time that wouldn’t happen.  So we will continue to play it safe until the coast is really clear which means I would have to see a change in my cycles or mucus or something else.  I have been done for 8 years and will be done until menopause.

@barbara, I know how bending a little NFP rule goes.
That’s how dd #1 made her appearance! ;)

We had two children early in our marriage, 20 months apart.

Nearly seven years later, we still have two.

Although we decided against doing anything permanent, we have absolutely no inclination for more, even though we likely have a good 15 years of fertility ahead of us.

We do love our daughters, but babyhood was torture: Constant screaming, chronic sleep deprivation, social isolation, no support from family, and a pervasive sense of hopelessness dominate our memories of babyhood. While it would be nice to have a larger family, we couldn’t parent the children we have in such a condition.

I don’t understand how you all do it, but not everyone is good at parenting.

Kris, in New England,
I’ve encountered some heavy-handed but well meaning folk who offer unsolicited advice on moral matters.That can certainly turn one off, rather than encourage.Still,I don’t think it’s a bad thing to offer counsel if you’re aware a friend’s considering something which goes against Church teaching-and which they may later regret.It’s all in the way you do it & the intent.

Anonymous2 ,
I just finished a book (audio CD’s) called “Bringing Up Be’be’”-an American mother’s experiences & observations on French child rearing.
The French don’t get it all right-no society does-but it’s very interesting reading.Especially the parts concerning sleep deprivation, etc.
I think in the States, we make the whole process much harder.It shouldn’t be.
God bless!

My husband and I are 49 and with 5 children, we just started the process for adoption via our local Catholic Charities.  The question keeps coming up “why are adopting” on all our gazillion forms to fill out.  I don’t know if the folks at Catholic Charities or prospective birth parents will every understand our reasoning, but I think you will.  After many years of living with NFP and asking the question “are we open to one more child?”, it just makes sense that even with our fertility at an end, we are still asking that question.  And, yes..we are open to more.  It remains to be seen if folks will see that as a worthy answer…but, it is what it is.  Our 5 children are so excited about the prospect of another little one in the house.  Please say a prayer for us!

Interesting. We tried “attachment parenting”, which was a complete disaster for all involved.

The most frustrating part was that the Church was the WORST place to turn for help. There were two parishes in our town. The NFP moms in the “conservative” parish were very judgmental and holier than thou about their faith, family size, and parenting skills. The “liberal” parish had nothing for children and seemed to expect young couples to use contraception.

Jennifer, just a note. I delayed marriage a good many years, having subscribed to what conservatives call the “playboy philosophy,” which essentially is the approach of trying to have sex with a good many young women and that’s it.

So now, once married, I’m finding we’re too old to have more than one kid! And we grieve that that’s it for us. On the outside, it looks as though we’re being “modern” or something, when in reality, we’d like a good many more.

This is a true tale, a cautionary tale: the “culture” can send the wrong message and end up really harming you.

Just to let you all know, by the time you get to my age, 62, a lot of those concerns don’t matter. I have never ran into a person my age that said they had too many kids, but countless times people tell me they wish they would have been open to more, we had 9 children, one of which was a miscarriage so that one is heaven with my wife. I lost her to cancer almost 7 years ago. Things got pretty rough some days as we were raising our family but we could count on each other and FatherGod

Captain America: We got married young and had children young only to find we really weren’t mature enough to be able to take care of them properly.

Grass is always greener, no?

Anon 2
Just a word of encouragement, no judgement here. I have a dear friend who is struggling through her first baby’s first year. I know if it were me it would be over after 1. Lots of advice, but no real offer to help. No one she is able to talk to without a lot of “You need to…” sentences. Everyone telling her they went through the exact same thing and that it will be over in a week, a month, by the time he’s a year old. None of that helping this poor frazzled sleep deprived mother. I only pray she has a second who sleeps through the night, eats well and doesn’t scream every waking second-if just that she can know it’s not her fault!

I think the hardest part about saying, “you’re done” is you’ll get criticism where ever you turn.  Your liberal friends will say, “Well it’s about time!” while your very conservative friends will say, “But you’re still fertile!” It helps to surround yourself with supportive friends, and remember not to judge someone for their decision to have another baby or not.  We don’t know what their life is like.  We don’t know all the circumstances.  In our case, we were blessed with 4, and told everyone we were done.  God decided we needed one more…and she is pure joy…even now at the oh so wonderful age of 2.  But I had severe morning sickness, extremely painful sciatic nerve pain in both legs, and was anemic this time around.  Plus I have a congenital liver disorder.  So…would I have another?  I really want to.  But the body may not be so cooperative.  There is a fine line between throwing caution to the wind and responsible parenthood, and we all walk it in different ways according to our circumstances.

We weren’t expecting #4, due in May, at all.  According to my NFP chart, this baby is some kind of miracle that couldn’t have happened.  God clearly has a sense of humor.  Though we were shocked, we are happy and eager to meet our new baby.  I’m in my 40’s, so are we “done” after this?  Who knows!  After this, I’m sure not gonna say it’ll never happen again.  It requires tremendous trust and humility to say, “As You wish, Lord…” and then keep walking into the unknown.

Anonymous 2 - Good to meet you.  We are another attachment parenting family failure.  Yes, the rad trads can be very judgmental when it comes to family size.  I refuse to discuss the issue with people in my network because I always get the “God will never send you more than you can handle” baloney which is a made up idea that is no where in Catholic teaching.  I have a friend who had a nervous breakdown because she couldn’t handle the large family she thought she had to have to be a good Catholic (she has no family in the area either and I’m not much help due to my own medical conditions).  I guess God gave her more than she can handle!  Family size is between you, your husband and God and no one else.  However, you don’t need to use contraception to regulate family size. I would rather die than use contraception but thankfully I have NFP and self control.

Thank-you for this post. We are “done for now”, with 3 young children, both my husband and I having health problems, having a special-needs child, and my husband recently turning 40. But I like the glimmer in my heart that maybe someday we *might* be able to welcome another if we can overcome these burdens. Well, not the age one, LOL, but the others. Our world is changing rapidly, and you never know what’s around the corner.

For those pooh-poohing Jennifer’s message, I think you’ve missed the point. There are legit reasons to further avoid another pregnancy, such as age or health and she doesn’t deny that. But to close your heart out so completely to the someday possibility by sterilizing yourself, you risk closing yourself off to other blessings.

I read somewhere that may people regret sterilizing themselves, Christian, Catholic, Secular or otherwise. But if asked which of their children they regret, most would be hard pressed to give an honest answer. I know I would.

If I had a dollar for every person who asks the question, “Are you done?” We’d have college prepaid!

My husband and I have 4 kids under 4 years old but it’s our life and God has apparently given us the role of parenting babies and toddlers—- must think we are good at training saints.

When people ask us “Are you done?” We usually give a remark like.., “We’ll stop when we have an ugly one!”

Kids are so wonderful and NFP is beautiful for marriages. Theology of the Body by Christopher West was pretty influential in our faith journey.

Love this article. Can’t wait to share and converse with friends about the topic.

Thank-you for this post. We are “done for now”, with 3 young children, both my husband and I having health problems, having a special-needs child, and my husband recently turning 40. But I like the glimmer in my heart that maybe someday we *might* be able to welcome another if we can overcome these burdens. Well, not the age one, LOL, but the others. Our world is changing rapidly, and you never know what’s around the corner.
For those pooh-poohing Jennifer’s message, I think you’ve missed the point. There are legit reasons to further avoid another pregnancy, such as age or health and she doesn’t deny that. But to close your heart out so completely to the someday possibility by sterilizing yourself, you risk closing yourself off to other blessings.
I read somewhere that may people regret sterilizing themselves, Christian, Catholic, Secular or otherwise. But if asked which of their children they regret, most would be hard pressed to give an honest answer. I know I would.

BTW…I should add we teach NFP…so we know our 5th was exactly a surprise.  I know what you mean Jennifer!  God really does have a sense of humor.  I had to keep remembering that during those 2:00 AM feedings!  And again, find those supportive friends! Even my MIL said, “Opps” when we told her we were expecting…and that hurt.  I really needed her to say, “Congratulations” instead.  But our friends were happy for us, loaned us baby gear (since we’d sold most of ours at a garage sale), and brought us dinners after the baby was born.  And when you think about it…the 5th baby gets more love than her previous 4 siblings, because there are 6 other people in the house. :-)

BTW…I should add we teach NFP…so we know our 5th wasn’t exactly a surprise.  I know what you mean Jennifer!  God really does have a sense of humor.  I had to keep remembering that during those 2:00 AM feedings!  And again, find those supportive friends! Even my MIL said, “Opps” when we told her we were expecting…and that hurt.  I really needed her to say, “Congratulations” instead.  But our friends were happy for us, loaned us baby gear (since we’d sold most of ours at a garage sale), and brought us dinners after the baby was born.  And when you think about it…the 5th baby gets more love than her previous 4 siblings, because there are 6 other people in the house. :-)

Kris—First of all, the person brought up in a public conversation what her husband was about to do.  I didn’t ask her.  And her husband wasn’t there.

Secondly, if I saw someone about to walk off of a cliff, I would certainly try to make sure they knew what they were about to do.  This woman and her husband were about to walk off of a moral cliff.  To say nothing felt like I would letting God down.  It was a hard decision to make because I already feel like an outsider in that social circle (I’m the new person).

Third, when the moment arose where she and I were alone (as I certainly would not want to put her on the spot in front of others), I told her that the decision was between her, her husband, and God, but that my conscience was telling me that I should say something.  She admitted that she knew that what they were doing went against the Church, and I just asked her and her husband to pray about it more.

It was something I wrestled with internally, and I think she knew that I was coming from a sincere place.  She knew that if anyone could understand her reasoning for avoiding another pregnancy it was me.  And when it became clear that the deed was done I never said and will never say another word to her about it.

But it is always hard to discern when we have a moral obligation to speak up and when speaking up is just might push people farther away from the truth.

Anonymous (3):

Yes! “God never sends you more than you can handle” is NOT Catholic theology! It’s very evangelical Protestant. The Church teaches responsible parenthood, not providentialism.

DD #2 was an “NFP miracle”. (We know exactly what happened, but would have needed a good crystal ball (or a basal thermometer) to prevent it. We now use a different method.) We can’t imagine our family without her and it’s great that DD #1 has a little sister so close in age, but she was definitely more than we could handle at the time.

If we have another NFP miracle, we will obviously love the child, and our daughters would love a sibling, but we are quite concerned about whether having another one would be more than we could handle.

I’m very much like Anonymous, age 49, but I’m 51.  I had my fifth at 42 and have had 2 miscarriages since.  I struggle because my husband and I are also not “fully enjoying” our marriage because he’s adamant we’re done.  To give him all the credit he deserves he has my best interest at heart since #5 was an NFP mis-step and I do have history of postpartum depression.  He’s not Catholic, either, so since he’s using NFP (and I insist on every act being “open to life” which frustrates him) I know is trying hard to make me happy.  I’d love to convince him that since I’m 51 and have had 2 miscarriages the likelihood of actually giving birth is .001%, but he’s scared.  What is a Clear Blue Monitor?  Would that help?  PS I LOVE the reply ” We’ll stop when we get an ugly one!”

I saw this online, a speech given at a Canadian Catholic school for girls.Looks like there’s a copyright, so I won’t provide the link, but you can easily google it.
It covers some of the same issues & points out that while we may be living in the present time with a multitude of choices for women, our bodies are biologically the same as they were thousands of years ago when a life span was decades shorter.There’s a fairly narrow window of fertility if one pursues the current trend of putting of childbearing till other goals are achieved.

“Advice for 21st century young women”
by BARBARA KAY

Science has answers for all the people who don’t want more children. NFP is a form of birth control, and yes, it can lower the libido because of fear of pregnancy. Getting a vasectomy or tubes tied does not lower the libido.
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The Church really hates married couples to have sex without the possibility of offspring. If you aren’t doing it for the “primary purpose” (making babies) the “secondary purpose” (union of husband and wife) is not important. Couples can stay together without sex, so there really is no secondary purpose. Get the to a nunnery and/or monastery!

Fabulous! We have two children…a 5-year-old and a 7-month-old, both adopted. I have significant issues causing infertility, and we hold very little hope that pregnancy will ever occur (although we do nothing to prevent it). Also, we’ve maxed out our traditional adoption budget, and our family “feels” complete, for the moment. But we’ve considered the foster-to-adopt avenue, and although it doesn’t seem right at the moment (see above re: 7-month-old!), I don’t doubt the possibility that we might be called to that later. Or not. There’s no way to be sure. I’m not saving the baby gear this time around, but I’m pretty sure there is more baby gear to be found if God leads us down the baby avenue once again. He has blessed us greatly, in ways we never would have imagined on our wedding day!

We all have a different path in this life with different variables.  Attachment parenting worked the best for me, even if I came into it reluctantly, and suffered most while I resisted.  It seems that my fertility increased as my body weight increased, so strangely enough, I was at my most fertile period in my late 30s and early 40s.  At my most fertile peak, nursing the baby ecologically suppressed fertility to 13 months post partum.
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I’ve never had to face using NFP month in and month out for years, so I’m not sure what that would have been like, but I admire those who are able to use this discipline, and stay close mentally and physically.
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One thing that I can’t agree with more emphatically is Jennifer’s over arching premise for this blog post.  It is absolutely impossible to know, or wrap our brains around the future.  It is enough to to our very best in a given day, with the graces that that particular day brings.
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I remember smugly counting out that I would have approximately seven kids, based on our fertility, when I was a 20 something year old with two kids.  I came close to the actual mark, but I was so, so far from the reality that I live right now.
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We ended up being far more open to life, because God needed to break our hearts in order to make them bigger.  Burying a baby (or two) has a way of doing that.

C- I don’t know what form of NFP you do but I am surprised you haven’t heard of the Clear Blue Easy Fertility Monitor or the Marquette method.  The Clear Blue Easy monitor is a device you will need to buy along with the test strips (not cheap but definitely worth every penny).  You can get it at some drugstores or through Amazon or go to the Clear Blue Easy website.  Originally designed to help women to get pregnant, Marquette University has a protocol for using it to avoid pregnancy.  Go to http://nfp.marquette.edu/ to learn how to do it.  It’s so easy - in a nutshell, in the morning you test your urine with a test strip and put it in the monitor and it tells you if 1) you are NOT fertile or 2) you MAY be fertile or 3) you ARE fertile (because you are ovulating).  I highly recommend it!  There is also a saliva test monitor out there too but I don’t what it is called.

We, too had too many children, more than we could really handle. However, the problem was with the first four. The final three have been a delightful breeze.

p.s.  When I was a freshman in college, they gave out hall awards at my dorm.  I was dating a polo player, who liked to “wine and dine”, so I somehow earned the dubious honor of parchment paper with a gold seal which read: “Most likely to Marry Rich”.  Every single former friend, roommate, hall mate,or frankly *anyone* from my “former” life gasps and gets slack jawed when I admit to them that I have eight kids, and have been married 27 years.  It’s like telling them that the moon really IS made of cheese, and that my family lives up there too.  Lol.  Predicting the future is a tricky business.  People have both radical and gradual conversions.  God never stops knocking eh?

I’m 42, never married, and have been abstinent for more than 15 years. 
As a reward for being faithful and chaste, it looks like I’ll never have the family I wanted.
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Right now, I’m dating a wonderful man, divorced, not catholic , with three kids, whose evil ex forced him to get a vasectomy. So it seems God has done everything possible to make darn certain I never reproduce!  It leaves me to wonder what I’ve done, or what is wrong with me to the extent that God wants to ensure I don’t have children, while stupid celebrities and crackheads get pregnant every day.
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You want to talk about done? Try never having a chance.
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@captainamerica , since I was left to date men like you throughout my fertile years, who dumped me when I wouldn’t give in to third date sex .... no offense, but maybe you got what you deserved. Women like me were trying to show you that the culture was wrong… But men like you ignored us.  Now none of us get the families we wanted.

TRS- What about adoption or foster parenthood?  Unfortunately, being faithful to God means taking up the cross. Thus we won’t always have our desires, even good healthy desires, fulfilled.  There are good Catholics who want to get married but will die single.  There are good Catholics who are in miserable marriages who wish they had stayed single. There is no justice in this world but God didn’t promise justice in this world.  The more important thing is to have an eye on the next world and how to get there.

There is not a day that goes by that I wish I had someone tell me these things 12 years ago.I wasn’t done, I was just overwhelmed.  I know now that I was not done, God knew I was not done, but I live with a quiet sadness of that reality. Keep spreading the word.You might make all the difference.God Bless you mom and God bless those that work in the Catholic media.

Its also hard when you have more than 2 or 3 kids already and even in your Catholic circle…no one congratulates you if you announce that you are expecting. Everyone just kind of rolls thier eyes and says “wow”. I guess I do not have much support at all around me. I am definately done.

If you’re ever feeling overwhelmed, please remember that there are couples out there who are prayerfully awaiting the blessing of even just one child. Please enjoy the blessing that your children are.

NFP is so hard. My husband and I had a miscalculation this month and it remains to be seen if that means #2. I’m 29. I have a ton of fertile years ahead and deciding month-to-month about fertility is exhausting. I hope I’m not “done” but for now I do think about playing it “safer” w contraception. We’ve resisted the temptation for now. God willing we’ll stay strong, but even prayer seems like a luxury these days.  I feel like I haven’t been mentally present at mass since the baby was born 7 months ago.  And if I’m being honest w myself, I’d confess that I really miss my old life- had a career, went out all the time, had a bunch of volunteer projects. Becoming a stay at hm mom has completely changed my life. I don’t mean to sound ungrateful for the chance to stay hm w my baby, but it’s a lot of wrk. I think adding another baby would put me other the edge.

I agree with Catholic gal.  Jennifer, I admire you and all women who are open to life.  It’s so refreshing to know how many selfless women there are out there.  Unfortunately, I was one of the selfish ones in my youth. Take care Jennifer - you’re in my prayers.

TRS, Vasectomies are reversible.  My husband had a vasectomy at the lowest point in his life.  Death, financial ruin and a bit of hell can really mess with the head.  It was a miracle when I found out by strange happenstance.  He reversed it the same month.  Most of our children were conceived after that.  He never grows tired of saying “thank you”.

@ Kara. Hope this doesn’t sound sanctimonious but thinking about playing it “safer” with contraception and daydreaming about your old life are the devil speaking to you.

For Barbara C, I wish you had been in my life when my husband and I were considering a vasectomy.  All it would have taken is one person saying, “think about this more”.  Instead, we had two priests tell us it was OK (I was 43 at the time and my husband 46).  Even so, on the way to the urologist, I knew we should turn around, but we didn’t. Oh, and by the way, we had considered this before, but it had never been part of my husband’s health plan.  So if anyone thinks that there won’t be more sterilizations with the HHS mandate, they are wrong.  Once it got covered by a new job’s insurance plan, the sterilization entered our minds again. We would never have paid for it. While the first year or so it seemed like a great idea, after that I became haunted by the decision.  Yes, we have confessed, but I can say the decision hurt our marriage.  Not to mention that in a couple of years I was wishing I did have baby #6. It is very hard to teach your children (ours are now teens and twenties) about chastity and the church’s teachings when you are a hypocrite.

Kara - Ignore Coast Ranger, that wasn’t helpful.  It’s perfectly normal to feel the way you do.  I did.  But you are in the hardest part of things now; there is an adjustment curve.  Things WILL get easier as the baby gets older, sleeps through the night, learns to feed himself/herself, gets potty trained, etc.  It will get better. You are obviously overwhelmed so no need to feel rushed. But I bet you will feel differently within a year. Try to hang in there!

Barbara C -not that you had to but…thank you for clarifying how you spoke with your friend. Your first comment with the “got her into a room” made it sound like you just told her how you felt about something that may or may not have been your business.  Guess my puritan roots are coming out there…not sure I could have that conversation with even my closest friend let alone someone I didn’t know very well.  Then again it’s a moot point for me, at least on this subject. My friends are in the grandparent stage of life and God never blessed me with children. I just live vicariously thru the kids of all of my friends.
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Which, to Struggling (on Wednesday, Feb 20, 2013 1:01 PM): thank you for saying it.

Kara—yes, when the baby doesn’t need diapers anymore, your natural desire to have another baby to change diapers for will return. That’s what Jennifer, et al, think you should believe, even though the “grass seems greener” for career women with social lives not centered on play dates for the kids.
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Don’t worry—women tend to live longer than men and you might get to change his diapers some time.

Don’t forget that you have pregnancy hormones going nuts with your thinking and emotions. Too many women make these permanant decisions when they are not in a place to think straight let alone make such a life altering decision. At least with the NFP you can give your body a chance to get back to normal and your mind to recover from being inundated with pregnancy hormones before you consider the pros and cons to another child. NFP also will help you to recognize changes in your body as you age so that you are more prepared to deal with it. NFP also keeps you from making a choice that can physically harm you.

Hang in there Jennifer. Take it from someone that the doctors didn’t want to be conceived, You never know what gift will come from God or when. If I wouldn’t have been born my Mom wouldn’t have lived as long as she did and my parents wouldn’t of had someone to care for them.

Kara, If you are struggling with NFP, don’t be afraid to get help. Your NFP instructor may be able to give you some advice to make things easier. If all else fails, another method may be much easier.

NFP can be difficult, especially postpartum, but we’ve learned the hard way that contraception creates more problems that it solves.

I’ve had sort of a strange experience re:family size.  I always wanted a big family (like, at least 10, probably more).  I mean REALLY, REALLY wanted a big family - it was my dream.  After our first daughter was born, my husband didn’t want any more kids.  It was torture, and we probably would have divorced if we weren’t Christians (with a biblical view of marriage).I prayed everyday for God to change my husband’s heart or take away my desire. 

Eventually we agreed to have just one more child, and then possibly re-open the discussion in 6-7 years, and maybe consider adopting at that time.

We immediately conceived our second daughter, and within days of giving birth my desire for another child was gone (compared to my 1st where I was wanting to have another the day after I gave birth!)

Since then, I’ve had no desire for another child, and I’m excited about the future of our small family.  There are so many perks to having a family of four, and I’m enjoying each and every one of them.  If we never have any more kids I would be perfectly happy.

Of course, Jennifer is right, and we have no way to see the future.  If another baby came along, of course we would welcome him/her!  Who know how we may feel in 5 years, in 10 years! It’s impossible to know what the future holds. (I’m only 29 so lots more fertile years, and my in-laws adopted 11 kids when their youngest bio kid was in high-school!)

Thanks for the helpful comments:) I moved to a new city shortly before giving birth. My husband and I agreed it would be best for me to stay hm and take care of our daughter. That was 7 months ago. Today I have my first job interview and I just keep thinking—what if I’m pregnant?! No one will hire me if I’m pregnant. And even though we can get by w/o me wrking, that much time away from work is a resume killer. I guess that’s why I’m freaking out and thinking about contraception. Anyway, better get back to prepping for the interview. Prayers are welcomed:)

anna lisa,
I started babysitting at age 11, & by 12 or 13, I was not interested in the thought of a large family.Too many hours chasing other folk’s unruly kids.
I daydreamed that my future “award” might read something like “most likely to marry rich & famous” but my sister predicted I was the type to marry young & have 8 kids on a low income. She was right.
I still dislike most babysitting, but am blessed to have 8 children.I wish I could tweak the income level, though.
God bless!

It’s illegal for an interviewer to ask if you are pregnant and it is illegal to fire you for being pregnant. And you have no obligation to bring up the subject or volunteer information in that regard.

@Kara - Well, if you did happen to be pregnant, it’d be barely so, and several months into a job they can’t fire you for being pregnant unless they want a lawsuit.  I get nervous thinking the same thing (looking for jobs now too - my son is 14 months), and I hate platitudes (“God doesn’t give you more than you can handle, hurr hurr!), but I hope that’s a small twisted bit of an upside for you, lol.

@Imblacklisted or blacklistedtroll, whatever you prefer to be called, I’m wondering what your motivation is for reading articles on National Catholic Register, especially this one, and commenting as you have.  Are you a Zero Population Growth adherent?  Otherwise, I don’t understand why it’s of any concern to you that people are trying to live in accord with Church teaching on NFP.

Reason #7: Your kids are listening.

We’re probably done. Frequent relocation for work, degraded health and lack of nearby family support are against our switching from “trying to avoid” via NFP to “trying to conceive” before I hit menopause.

Still, I refuse to say that we’re done, mostly because I never seem to be out of earshot of at least one of our children. They all love babies and would be thrilled to have another brother or sister, and I don’t want to crush their huge hopeful hearts.

If someone asks, I reply with words to the effect that we would be happy to have another, but I am older than 40 and we’re not sure God has plans to send us one.

Jennifer, your columns are always wonderful. Thank you. But I think you should have added one more item to your list: Saying “I’m done” is just asking God to say, “Ha ha! No, you’re not.” :) I’m joking, but it did feel that way when we found out this fall that we were unexpectedly pregnant with #4…which turned out to be twins. The day we found out there were two babies, my husband asked me, “What can I do for you?” And I told him, “You can go get a vasectomy today!” Thankfully he didn’t take me at my word, because I was reacting in that moment out of terror. It’s so tempting to think that a permanent fix like a vasectomy or getting my tubes tied would solve all our future challenges and anxieties about using NFP, but I know in my heart that it wouldn’t. And besides that, I know people who have had these procedures and still gotten pregnant. I don’t know of a single artificial birth control method that has never failed—I’m sure we all know multiple “Pill” babies. There are no absolute guarantees. So while it can be difficult at times to handle people’s reactions to our family size (when my dad, for example, found out we were having twins, the first thing he said was “Well, this will be the end of all that”), we are at peace because we know we are in God’s hands, come what may.
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As a side note re: attachment parenting, I tried this with my first because everything I read from Catholic writers at that time seemed to imply that if you didn’t practice AP, you were some sort of hard-hearted, selfish secularist. Even the name “attachment parenting” implies judgment, because if you’re not doing it, doesn’t that mean you’re a “detached” parent? But I found AP to be exhausting and emotionally draining. We have moved away from this method, at least in the strict sense, and found what works best for us and for our children. Like Kathleen above, I read “Bringing Up Bebe” and found it very interesting. AP has some wonderful aspects, but it’s not the only way to go.

To all you women that say you’re only having “relations” with your husbands 5 or 10 times a year - if he’s not having “relations” with you, he’s having them with someone else.  Oh, he’ll deny it - but there’s no man on earth that will only have sex 5 or 10 times a year.  God didn’t mean for that to happen.

Jordan - fair warning, don’t feed that particular troll. It’s best to just ignore it and it will find more fertile ground - no pun intended :-) - elsewhere.

To those folks who think they are done, at least keep that news to yourself so you don’t discourage others who are willing to have more kids or to discourage those who are using the “hard” method of NFP to avoid pregnancy.  Try as you might, if you think you are “done” there really isn’t any rational justification for getting sterilized or using contraception…if you need to avoid pregnancy, then you abstain from relations when you are fertile.  No where is it written that we have a “right” to have sex.  Sometimes abstinence is the cross the Lord asks us to bear.  In our hedonistic culture, this isn’t a message folks want to hear, but it is the truth that sets us free!  And as Catholics, we especially are called to show this truth to the world so it too can be free.

I look at my 4 children and wonder, “what would the other’s been like? Concerned about affording more, we stopped. My business later exploded; we could have easily afforded more

@billy:  If he’s not having relations with another person, he’s probably having relations with himself.
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@Kim: This is what I see as a large problem with the Catholic conversation on sex: It is too focused on the physical at the expense of the relational.
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Abstaining from relations during the 7-10 days of normal fertility isn’t that great a burden. Having sex 5 to 10 times a year is a problem. But when you have the idea that relations between husband and wife are “hedonistic” and abstinence a “cross to bear”, it’s easy to think of such behavior as saintly, when it’s really a sign that’s something is seriously wrong, either physically, psychologically (undue fear), or relationally.

My heart always aches to hear the stories such as Anonymous #1 and #2, especially the struggles that are part and parcel of the first few years of babyhood and no family support to encourage or relieve them.
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Wish I could make you a meal, watch your kids (or ask my teenagers to do it!), invite you over for a visit, etc.-
None of which would be done to convince you to have more, try AP again or anything…just to give you a break.
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I can’t but know that after reading of your struggles, I will always remember you in my prayers - sometimes mumbled as I fall asleep after a long day of parenting my large family.

While reading Jennifer’s post and the comments, if you “listen” between the lines you can see the pressures: the adjustment to that first baby, babies who won’t sleep, social and work pressures, cultural pressures we gave into and now regret, etc.  The MOST mentioned pressure: lack of family support.  The weakening of family bonds has been the goal of some people for about a century now.  Some want the family weakened for greed, some for ideology.  Both groups have succeeded to a large degree in the West.  What this blog post discusses pushes back against that greed and ideology and requires serious engagement in our own lives.  You can’t live the typical auto-pilot industrial model life and expect things to just fall into place because, you know, we’re SO “advanced” today.  You have to really live, really give, really suffer.  It is very hard work.

Beth:  that’s how I’ve always felt about the term “attachment parenting”.  While I think it’s a great parenting approach (one of many good ones), the name has always bothered me because it seems to imply that using other parenting methods means less attachment.

Jen,

I read through this comments and thought, “how discouraging”.  I’ll deliver my third baby around my oldest’s third birthday (almost to the day! LOL).  Some days are hard - very hard.  I just remind myself that lots of people have had lots of babies over hundreds of years, and really, I’m not so special that my life is that much harder than anyone else’s.  Lots of people have survived this - their kids turned out fine and those people actually enjoyed their kids at the end of the day.  A woman that I know had nine kids. She said once that she hated it when people would say “wow, nine kids.  You’re amazing.  I could never do that.” She hated that because they seemed to imply that it was easy for her and no one else could do it because they would find it hard. Well, the reality is that it is hard.  Life is hard sometime.  But it gets better and God really does know best.

Beth,
God bless you and your twins.
I have twin grandbabies & they’re a trip.Totally relate to each other differently than non-twin brothers & sisters do.I love watching them take turns & then realize that’s how they had to manage things in utero.It’s very sweet & dear.Twins are a special blessing.

Great article! We have a group of friends who “brag” about being done, and also exchange tips on how and where to get “fixed” either hims or hers. Whenever we have tried to share our mindset of being open to life, we encounter a hardness in their hearts that is difficult to go through. Fortunately, by grace and prayer, some couples have confided in us (not publicly) that since they decided to be done with their fertility, something change in their relationship and not for the better. Women find themselves forced to obliged to an intimate moment with their husband because their is “no risk” of getting pregnant. In the end, they use and hurt each other. We will never know if they would have sticked with NFP the relationship would be better, but al least have brought them to a different understanding behind the reasons to be open to life by being honest about the negative effects of “being permanently done with fertility” has had in their relationship.

@Claire, I actually discovered the term “Attachment parenting” here at the NCR, and later with that infamous Time Magazine article, but I had been doing something that people would call “AP” long before it was given that new title.  It simply was what made sense to this sleep deprived mother who needed to survive.  Only one of my eight slept through the night.  Breastfeeding babies wake up more due to the composition of breast milk.  Half of *my* battle was simply having enough information, when the prevailing Litmus Test of whether or not you are a successful mother was based on whether your child slept through the night.  It was such a relief to me to find out that mine was not the first not to, and that women had been breastfeeding at night for millions of years.
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What is painful to read, is how much *pressure* in general, women today face.  What gives me more pause is reading about women who would like nothing more than to breastfeed their babies, but who have no option but to return to work.  “Styles” of parenting, where one can check the box which appeals most is a luxury.
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The way I look at it is, what are the options?

@JH, *You* are the hero.  Nobody makes a big fuss over a Mom who *just* has three kids, but I know from the days when nobody made a big fuss over me, and I was struggling to keep my sense of equilibrium; that at times I was pushed to my limits.  I couldn’t even FATHOM one more at moments like that.  Women with big families shamed me because my distorted understanding gave me a warped sense of inadequacy. I multiplied my agony factor times 3 or 4,if they had 3 or four times more kids than me. Now more than ever I *really* know it doesn’t work that way. Having the eight that I have now, with the youngest almost three is cake walk in comparison, to when I had one or three.  I almost miss those days of “war” when Jesus would come prop me up with a wave of strength and love for “the battle”.

Correction: my youngest is almost four :)

Annalisa:  I did a semi-bottle feeding version of AP with my son, if that makes any sense.  I unfortunately did have to work fulltime when he was an infant, and thankfully was able to quit my job when he was 18 months and then return very part-time.  Yes, women have it tough these days.  Thank you, feminists!

I have a large family and my best advice to anyone struggling with the phase of lots of little kids is to find others in the same boat…people who will “get” why you can’t head out to restaurants with your kids, why your house is messy if they “drop-in” and when and if you can manage to have anyone over…the food is simple and the occasion is noisy. And they will understand why in amongst all the chaos you actually enjoy just “looking at” that new little person and don’t mind that the grass isn’t cut and your Aunt thinks you are weird. Good friends make all the difference. Especially when “family” is unsupportive. I am expecting my tenth and my mother is still after me about being an awful daughter because with all my kids and homeschooling I can’t do what daughters are supposed to do….go shopping for the day with their mothers…stop by for visits (just me, too ?!? no kids invited) and why oh why is my house always “untidy” ?!?

@Jordan- good luck w the job hunt! I think my interview went well. At the very least it was nice to speak w another adult about things not related to diapers, lol.

@JH- good luck w the delivery! I’m one of those ppl that would say: wow 3 kids in 3 years, ur amazing! I could never do that! I know life is hard, but for me at least I feel like that would just be too much.

I don’t know about anyone else, but this internal tug of war btw having a successful career and being open to life is maddening. I use to know a couple of older women w many children, but none of them worked outside the home. I feel like doubting Thomas. I want to see for myself that it’s possible to be open to life, have the children The Lord wants you to have & be successful outside the home.

As an aside, it has recently occurred to me that I go to mass but I’m not really there. I’m focused on the baby. She’ll usually wake up crying during the homily or this past Sunday it was during the consecration. How do you all stay focused on The Lord w so many kids to look after? I’m obviously doing it wrong. Any tips?

@Kara, you don’t sound ungrateful at all. You sound beautifully honest. Go knock ‘em dead at that interview, pregnant or not!! :) This infertile 26-year old is rooting for you. I would demand that you report back to us on how it went, but that might be a little bossy of me :)
Interesting how different lives can be sometimes. You mentioned how exhausting deciding month-to-month about fertility is, and I don’t doubt you – but just the other night, I turned to my husband after adding the latest sticker to my NFP chart, and said, “Dearest, wouldn’t it be exciting if we could actually do something with this information? Like, if it actually mattered when we had sex???” I guess God gives us each the struggles and joys we need to become saints, right? Well, He has His work cut out for Him with me, at least…;)

Thank you. I needed this today. I REALLY needed this. God bless you and everything you write. :-)

Kara,
I have always believed that the effort IS the prayer. Even an attempted brief prayer at consecration is heard and your efforts to console your little one is you living your vocation for God himself.

The most difficult part of raising a large family was, for me, the total lack of societal - and Church - support. Raising a large family is a lot of work, and it can be very isolating.  You are always put in a position of having to answer rude and embarassing questions. You are always aware that your family is different than everybody else’s and everybody talks about you. However, I can’t imagine which child I wouldn’t have had. Being open to life means you accept the child God wants you to raise - I never could figure out when to say “no” to that.  When you are in the trenches of childrearing, it’s hard to see how quickly the time goes. We are now in our late 50’s and our children are grown. We now can do all those things we postponed doing: travel, lots of entertainment, etc. The biggest payoff: our children are very close friends, are raising their children together, and consider our family - and their childhood - absolutely amazing. For them their growing-up years were wonderful - many memories of life with lots of brothers and sisters. They are each other’s best friends. Time passes quickly and - looking back on it, with all it’s hardships - I am so grateful that we took this route.

Kara, I used to chide God a bit when I felt like the graces of being at mass would have to be purely by osmosis because I couldn’t concentrate.  I know this kind of “fasting” from peace can be trying, but I’m convinced that mothers and fathers receive a very special grace for this.  What REALLY helped me was stealing off on occasion to adoration, or an evening of recollection.  Sometimes I would ask my husband to leave a little later for work so I could attend a 7am mass.  This helped me a lot.  Mass on weekdays is an incredibly serene experience, it is a mere 25 mins. There is something about the quiet of the early morning that really moves me. In later years I could leave the baby with my oldest, so I could go.

Claire, reading these blogs and threads has been so eye-opening to me.
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I remember something from a child rearing book that I read years ago, that really stuck with me.  It more or less stated that *whatever* our parenting style is, if it is done with *love*, THIS is all that matters.  This really helped me muddle through and examine my conscience.  And yes, I wonder what Betty Friedan would say about all the women who didn’t sign up for juggling TWO jobs, due to necessity, NOT new found freedom.

Amen Annalisa!  On both accounts.

Threads like this remind me how much I miss the Wednesday fertility forum at faith and family. It helped me get over the fear of unexpected pregnancies and to soldier on with NFP month after month. Is there anywhere that offers similar connection?

Ana:  that forum has now moved to Catholic Digest.  It’s not as user-friendly as F&F, but it’s worth a try!  (And it’s still the Wednesday coffee talk topic.)  If you have trouble finding it, let me know and I’ll post a link.

this gets especially tricky when you know in your heart that as a couple you can never be “done”, but your husband isn’t agreeing with it. he’s the one out there stressing because there’s barely enough money for those of us already here, and though i know he believes we must be open to life and he truly believes if we conceive another “unexpected” that God will take care of us, but after 4 I know he’s going to be telling everybody we’re “done”. hopefully I can talk to him and ask him to word it differently. it’s sensitive because our contracepting, protestant family certainly doesn’t understand.

I belong to an NFP group on Facebook where we ask questions, learn about different methods of NFP, what resources are around, support each other, etc. It is a closed group, so you have to ask to enter but we have found it invaluable. You can join us: https://www.facebook.com/groups/NFPfans/

@Katherine S- I think it went well. She asked a couple of questions I don’t think I answered very well, but I think I rebounded nicely w my knowledge of organization and interest in their mission. Prayers are welcomed:)

Thanks for the suggestions about getting in the “spiritual zone”, as I call it. I definitely try to escape to adoration. It’s really amazing what a couple of minutes w the Blessed Sacrament can do for your soul. But, again, it’s hard to go when no one can watch the baby:/

I am reminded of a family that was killed in a bad car wreck a few blocks from my college in the 80s. A mother and five children, gone in an instant! The father survived. I felt so terribly sad for him, having to start over. We really can’t ever be “done,” because God gets the final word. I have a friend from childhood who had three two children, and her husband had the V done. And wow, a few months later, she was pg w/their third child. A child she says is the joy of her life! She doesn’t share my faith, nor my beliefs about this, but she acknowledges what an amazing gift this child was to them. I do agree that nothing lasts forever. Our fears about being too fertile, not fertile enough—they come and go. We had six children in 13 years, and felt so blessed—and overwhelmed! I was sure we could not manage any more after the last one, and interestingly, I was “blessed” with many health issues instead of more pregnancies. My “baby” is 9 years old now, and I am several years into menopause. No more babies here, and you know what? The overwhelmed part went away, and I would have loved more. I am grateful for reasonably good health, and our beautiful family. But I know that God really does know best, and He sees the big picture we cannot see in our human frailty.

I have 4 daughters.  17, 13, 4, and 2 years old.  We still talk about having another one from time to time.  We even talk about adoption being on option.  I’m currently on birth control because I’m on medicine that causes severe birth defects.  It bothers me sometimes, but I’m very thankful that we did not choose sterilization.  My 4th daughter was conceived if though we tried to avoid it.  Therefore Im convinced that if we are meant to get pregnant again it will happen.  As with everything I will take it one day at a time.

@Kara: hang in there! Often times, having just one baby is the hardest time of all because its a big transition.  With regard to not being “there” at Mass, don’t worry too much about it.  Don’t you think God knows that your little baby needs to eat or be comforted?  The fact that you ARE there is what He wants to see.  The grace is still there.  You don’t have to be focused in order to receive his grace (not if the “distraction” is your poor, hungry baby!) Think about this: you can compare your service to your child to the servers at the altar.  They are busy thinking about what comes next, where to go, how to stand or kneel, etc.  Their minds are not entirely able to be focused on the Mass the way someone sitting in the pew is.  How about the organist, the cantor, head sacristan, even the Priest has a lot to think about.  You are “feeding the poor” and “clothing the naked” when you take care of your baby.  She receives graces too, from being there faithfully with you.  Keep up the good work! And sneak off to a daily Mass alone once in a while.  It is nice.

I have three children.  I use simple Billings Method since wedding day six years ago.  No surprises.  Gotten preg each time we tried.  We have lots of sex and are currently not trying to conceive.  Irregular cycles, yet no issues.  Hope to have more.

Jennifer Fulwyler, thank you for this beautiful blog post.  As a mother struggling with hyperemesis gravidum, severe anemia, and a couple of hospitalizations, I can really relate to everything that you said. So many nurses and medical folks, as well as family members and friends have asked us if we are done, and with so many ER visits, medical interventions, medications, and everything, it definitely has put a huge strain on myself, my husband, and my kids.  It has been a pretty intense cross to carry with the strain of the constant nausea, food aversions, vomiting, and extra medical care.  My due date can’t come soon enough, and yet it seems oh-so-far-away!  I have always previously responded to queries that, “We are open to life”, but have felt strangely uncomfortable saying anything this time due to the severity of my condition this time around.  I’ve had hyperemesis before, but it has been much more severe this time.  Also, I am dealing with my husband’s very real and adamant sentiment of, “Don’t you even DARE think of doing this again”, and I just don’t feel that it is productive to even hint to him that in spite of how sick I am and have been, I still feel a tug on my heartstrings for one more baby. I also feel that medical professionals are looking for me to say definitively that I am done, and although I have been too weak to directly challenge them, I typically have avoided giving a direct answer.  I have felt guilty about that lately though - that perhaps God DOES want me to say, “In spite of all of these difficulties, we are still open to life”.  Perhaps He WANTS me to be a strong witness to others - not in spite of, but because of my extreme circumstances!

Jennifer Fulwyler, thank you for this beautiful blog post.  As a mother struggling with hyperemesis gravidum, severe anemia, and a couple of hospitalizations, I can really relate to everything that you said. So many nurses and medical folks, as well as family members and friends have asked us if we are done, and with so many ER visits, medical interventions, medications, and everything, it definitely has put a huge strain on myself, my husband, and my kids.  It has been a pretty intense cross to carry with the strain of the constant nausea, food aversions, vomiting, and extra medical care.  My due date can’t come soon enough, and yet it seems oh-so-far-away!  I have always previously responded to queries that, “We are open to life”, but have felt strangely uncomfortable saying anything this time due to the severity of my condition this time around.  I’ve had hyperemesis before, but it has been much more severe this time.

  Also, I am dealing with my husband’s very real and adamant sentiment of, “Don’t you even DARE think of doing this again”, and I just don’t feel that it is productive to even hint to him that in spite of how sick I am and have been, I still feel a tug on my heartstrings for one more baby. I also feel that medical professionals are looking for me to say definitively that I am done, and although I have been too weak to directly challenge them, I typically have avoided giving a direct answer.  I have felt guilty about that lately though - that perhaps God DOES want me to say, “In spite of all of these difficulties, we are still open to life”.  Perhaps He WANTS me to be a strong witness to others - not in spite of, but because of my extreme circumstances!

Also, mothers with hyperemesis gravidum NEED you to help them! They need you to help them with cleaning, cooking, bringing meals, inviting their family over for dinner, helping with caring for the children, etcetera.  Please do not abandon the mother with hyperemesis gravidum (extreme nausea and vomiting of pregnancy).

LucyL wrote: “God bless you with discernment and obedience.”
Wow…I wonder if God honors snarky blessings?

Jennifer, you know I think you’re a terrific and inspiring person, but I just want to say a word to moms like us who have serious medical issues (in my case, our three daughters are more than likely all we will have, and that’s not being “done,” that’s just being realistic).

It is NOT fear, doubt, lack of trust in God, or (Heaven forbid!) a contraceptive mentality to use NFP with the idea that another child will be extremely unlikely in the face of a serious physical or mental issue that is likely to continue throughout the mother’s fertile years, whether that issue is a pregnancy-related issue only, a permanent health issue, or some combination.

That doesn’t mean a person in that situation has to say, “I’m done!” But it does mean that it’s okay to admit that in light of the problem your discernment of God’s will means that unless something radically changes (miraculous healing, new treatments, change in family circumstances that make pregnancy possible again, etc.) you will not be *attempting* to add to your family and are using NFP with that in mind.  It should be taken for granted that following Church teachings regarding the method of family planning means that you would always welcome a surprise pregnancy even if there were very serious realities to go along with that. However, there would be no obligation to seek to add to the family so long as the condition persisted, and depending on individual circumstances it might even be imprudent to do so deliberately (though that discernment can only be made by the couple themselves with, if necessary, the advice of a trusted spiritual adviser).

I say this only because I have struggled myself in nearly 15 years of NFP use without a pregnancy when people have seemed to imply that a potentially life-threatening maternal health condition isn’t a good enough reason to stop trying to have a baby; the Church certainly doesn’t think that’s the case or demand that mothers and fathers knowingly seek pregnancy under such circumstances, despite what her detractors sometimes say.  It can be hard to come to a slow, dawning awareness (as I did) that one’s situation is unlikely to improve (especially with age, which already puts some women at greater risk during pregnancy), but it can be even harder when you hear many voices of fellow Catholics disparaging the use of NFP or insisting that “real” mothers would rather die in pregnancy or childbirth than stop trying. 

To sum up: No Catholic couple should ever believe that it is necessary to ignore serious physical or mental health risks in the pursuit of increasing family size.  The grace to embrace difficult or life-threatening pregnancies when these have come along by surprise is inspiring and wonderful and the means to do so is a gift, but it is not an absolute duty to ignore serious health risks for the sake of adding to one’s family—which is something I’m sure you agree with, but I didn’t want that point to get lost in the message.

enness ,
Everyone sees things through a filter of their own experiences.That can color the way we react to things or sometimes distort our vision a bit.
I think I’d just thank the one who asked for God’s blessing & move ahead.

Thank you, Jen.
I’ve been finding your posts particularly helpful these past few months. Oddly, your posts on motherhood have been the greatest help, even though I’m a young, single woman without kids: reading about your journey since late December has really helped me in dealing with the grief associated with my dad’s death. That probably sounds odd, but I figured I’d share.
Thank you again. You’ve my prayer.

I am at the almost certain end of my childbearing years (46) and have six children ages 25-3. I said I was “done” after my third child was born and tried to get my husband to have a vasectomy (we were Baptist, not Catholic at the time) and he refused. Eight years later, as I grew closer to the Lord, I was convinced to get off the pill. We had two more children and I thought again that I was done. Child #6 was a surprise, but even though great hardship was involved and I came too close to losing my life, she is one of the greatest joys in my life. When people ask me now if we are “done”, I say “That depends upon God”. As I look back over the years, I sorely regret the years I spent avoiding pregnancy and all the sacrifices have faded in my memory and the blessings become ever stronger.

I think it saddest of all when a husband abdicates his role as spiritual leader of the house and insists upon either comitting a mortal sin (vasectomy) or demanding that the wife not get pregnant again so he can have more “play” time and money. I pray for those families and hope they return to the Lord.

I do understand there are legitimate reasons to pursue NFP as the Catechism says: “For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality”. [Catechism of the Catholic Church 2368] 

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I am 46 years old and the thought ‘done’ has come to my mind many times, but not my heart.  I have 4 children aged 6 - 12 and I’ve lost 6 angels. Because I/we practice NFP, we get to talk about it and stay open to that precious gift of life each month.  It sure is easy to be overwhelmed by what we are called to do as parents to the vey young and needy. Thank you for your positive outlook. Blessings to you and yours!

Just a thought-I have conservative Mennonite friends with large families.They have support from their local church & extended families.The women get together at least once a week for sewing & fellowship.Families help each other when there is difficulty.They either homeschool or children atend a one room schoolhouse nearby.No child is turned away for lack of tuition.Folks interested in becoming Mennonite are welcomed& their children may attend the school whether or not they have the means to pay.
Homes are simple but very tidy, even with many children.
We Catholics seldom have the same support system.I think it’s something parishes could work on.It’s fine to promote NFP & being open to life.I completely agree, but if we offer little practical support & the prevailing culture influences our schools & parishes, our words can seem empty.

Perhaps my many, many negative experiences with other women has caused me to say the same thing to every woman who tells me she’s pregnant (whether a scared college student or a married woman on her 9th). “Congratulations. How can I help?”  I have four children, so far more than any of my co-workers but not enough to “impress” the TLM crowd where I go to church.  So pretty much everybody is critical of me!  But I win because my kids, who are now young adults, are just the best, most faith-filled people I could have hoped for.

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But I do highly recommend the mono response - women should support each other, and yet we’ve been trained to compete with each other.  It’s not healthy.  I don’t pretend that my cross is as heavy as other people’s.  My life has been amazingly easy.  So I say to each of you - whether you are single moms, working moms, homeschooling moms, or any other kind of mom—Congratulations.  How can I help?

I was ‘done’ at 32 with 2 boys and a girl and alucrative career.  God had other plans.  When I became open to life, I had another girl and a boy at age 38 and 40.  I quit my career and became one of those home school moms with a bunch of kids that I, at one point,  considered weird.  But I am glad that I listened to God.  I still miss my old life, but I love my new life and my kids more.  I would have had more kids, but lost a lot after 40.  I think about who could have been if I had not wasted 32 - 38 but I am done beating myself up over it.  There are reasons the CC allows for using NFP.  Health, finances, psycholical reasons.  It is good to let God lead for He is all knowing and we are not.

My wife and I just discovered that we are expecting #4 despite having played it very safe with NFP.  It was somewhat of a shock at first as we had planned to take some time to pay down debt and put money in savings prior to having another.  After some thought, we were able to put a plan together to make the financial piece work and are now looking forward to the arrival of our new little one.  We already have three kids aged three and under so things will be busy, but we are trusting in God that he will provide us the means to make it through.  Now, that being said, we are planning on being even more conservative in our NFP usage following this baby (as the chances of conception are higher in the supposedly “safe” time in phase 1, which is when this baby was conceived).  My wife hasn’t had serious medical issues but does have significant back and hip problems that hinder her from caring for our older kids during the later stages of pregnancy, as well as very severe morning sickness during her first trimesters.  We’re never going to say “we’re done,” but I view conservative NFP usage as less “we’re done” and more “well God, if you want us to have another baby you’re free to give us one, but we’re not going to decide to have one on our own at this point.”

Kara - I have four children and am newly pregnant with #5. I work full-time outside the home and have done so for nearly a decade. It can be done. :) It’s a LOT of work—and frankly my dream is to be a SAHM, as it would make our lives less stressful when the kids are sick and we have to juggle PTO and flex time—but it’s doable.

There are a lot of factors to consider when discerning whether to have more children. I think we all agree that in today’s society many people choose a comfortable life, a great career, and material possessions over having more children.  This is a huge problem.  A far less common problem but one that a woman still needs to examine is, does having more babies fill a personal need she has or is it that she feels that is what God wants for her family.  I say this because I have a friend with 9 kids who has co-dependency issues and always has to have a baby in her arms to feel complete and to feel young.  I am not making this up - she told me.  So having more kids is really about her and not about meeting the needs of the family (some of whom in my opinion are emotionally neglected) and whose husband is extremely stressed all the time is providing for them and helping care for them.  She doesn’t use NFP to space or limit so she has one every year (she doesn’t do ecological breastfeeding either because she wants that next baby to come). I just want to caution women to look at the needs of the whole family and not just their own emotional needs.

Those are very good points Anonymous.

I feel like whenever I read articles like this on Catholic websites, the authors don’t distinguish between being done because you got sterilized and being done because you have decided you have serious reasons to avoid pregnancy with NFP for the rest of your marriage. As Erin Manning pointed out, there really are serious reasons to avoid for the rest of a couple’s marriage. I think we can all agree that sterilization is a sin. But an NFP-using couple can still be done. Yes, they might change their minds. But they might not.

My husband and I are 32 with 3 kids, and 99% sure we’re done. We have many serious reasons not to have any more. I don’t see what the problem is if the couple is using NFP. How can it be a good idea to have a child purely out of obligation?

SD and others- I think there is a big difference between “basically sure we won’t have more children and we are using NFP” and “we are DONE”- we have 4 children and there have been serious medical complications with the last two (and the late miscarriage between the ‘two sets’ - so we are probably done- I am 41 anyway…but in my mind, to have the mindset “we are done” necessitates abortion if a surprise baby comes along…so I personally would never say I am done even though a pregnancy would be semi-tragic right now (first of all because I don’t think my body would sustain the pregnancy)-

Even NFP can be sabotaged if both partners don’t strongly agree about it. Forcing a woman to get pregnant when she doesn’t want to can be a form of spousal abuse, as can a woman getting pregnant when her husband does not another mouth to feed.
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http://www.redbookmag.com/love-sex/advice/reproductive-control
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2014901,00.html
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Any method of birth control must be with the full cooperation of both partners, but if one partner doesn’t want another child, that should be respected.

As always, Jennifer, you have very coherently reminded us that allowing God into our lives means every aspect.  I have 4 children and throughout our marriage we have used some form of NFP…or not…depending on the “season” in our lives.  The 1st nearly killed me (I mean this in a literal, not figurative sense) and my OB was shocked to see me back pregnant with #2.  Since then we have had miscarriages and preemies, but 4 beautiful girls are our reward.

To LucyL.  I was enjoying the array of comments (even the ones that disagree, people do) until I came to yours.  There is always the person that comes on these articles and explains that their interpretation of theology is better than yours and that they are more Catholic than the pope and priests.  I am very sorry for the scenario that you are living with, but hope that eventually you will feel the peace of forgiveness.  But, but, the Church definitely leaves the discernment of purposeful use of fertility to the couple and their God.  There is no laundry list of yes and no options that make it ok or not ok included in the catechism.  With NFP, the simple act of love without a chemical or physical barrier allows for the openness to life.  And, telling people that there is never any reason leads to people that either completely ignore the teaching or who live in great burden.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (via http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm)
2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156

We’ve had five children in six years and are at peace.  I don’t think either of us thought we’d have this many children when we were first married, especially as I was not a practicing Catholic and my husband was Protestant.  It was after the death of our first child that we became open to the idea of a larger-than-average family.
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After each child, I always had a feeling of “just one more.” Even with three under four, two of those in diapers, and one with special needs, I thought one more would be fine.  When our last was born, I finally felt like our family was complete.
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When people ask me, I always say that I “think” we’re done, but we never know what might happen.  Another baby is always a possibility, despite some very cautious NFP practices (multiple methods and cautious analysis of observations).  Even now, in survival mode with so many little ones so close in age, with homeschooling, with special needs, with little support, I know that we would adjust quickly.

As has been brought up by several posters here, for just reasons a couple can choose to abstain to prevent pregnancy. So if the couple chooses to abstain for the remainder of the wife’s fertile year wouldn’t it then be accurate to say that the couple has chosen to be done?  Unless the Holy Spirit miraculously zaps the woman as in the case of the BVM, a woman cannot get pregnant if she isn’t having sex.  I should remind everyone that the only method of birth control that existed prior to the 20th century was abstaining—lengthy abstaining.  So this was the method used by millions of people over thousands and thousands of years.  My mother even told me that her immigrant mother from a peasant farm family in Europe told her that when the couple wanted to be permanently done the husband moved into the boys’ bedroom. And yet, today we hear people say (on this forum even) that if a couple abstains for a long time there is something wrong with them and the husband must be getting it somewhere else.  Because in this sex saturated culture we cannot believe that a couple could possibly abstain for a longer length of time.  Heck, we can’t even believe a couple can abstain for the shorter lengths of time required by NFP.  This is completely absurd.  Couples can and do abstain for longer lengths of time without damage to their marriage or the husband getting sex illicitly.  And for those who don’t think it’s possible, well speak for yourself and don’t make libelous insinuations about anyone else who, by the way, probably has a happier marriage than you.

I had to search back to see why LucyL’s comment raised some dust.  I don’t think she meant to come across as harsh.  It seems that her sense of urgency came across as heavy handed.  Don’t all humans have conflicting motivations at times?  Duress can make us set a drastic course—to stake out a position stubbornly.  Any Mom who has had her youngest hit the age of five for instance could say to herself, “do I really want to press the restart button?  Diapers?  Morning sickness?  Bulging veins?”  The motivation *not* to have another child may not be a sin, but it could be a case of “burying talents”.  We could end up *not* being the steward that we *could* have been. Once it’s all over it’s all over, we can’t undo our decisions at our personal judgement. If we guard a portion of ourselves or our marriage, out of a need for luxuries, does that place us on the same moral ground as a woman who stayed the course, and truly remained “open to life” through her childbearing years? Isn’t there a difference between these two, equally healthy women?  Contrary to popular thought, our lives are not our own.  We have been purchased at an immense cost, and we shouldn’t underestimate the gravity of withholding generosity to an eternal soul.  We can say “it’s my private decision!”  Yes, it is, and not a decision which should be publicly scrutinized by others; but we shouldn’t fool ourselves into thinking that God won’t scrutinize those daily decisions that end up defining who we are.
No, not all NFP decisions fall in the same blanket column.
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—But I think the whole point of this article, is very important: Here,now and today,(barring drastic circumstances) we probably don’t need to make any drastic decisions.

I agree with Kris in that it is really up to the couples individually.  I don’t think that even with NFP, you should ever feel guilty in knowing that everyone has limitations.  Having 4 kids of our own, my husband and I are reeping the benefits of loving our children, raising them, and starting to concentrate on our relationship as it exists outside of the kids.  At one time, we had 4 kids under the age of 7, but now they are tweens and teens, and we are enjoying our newfound time together.  I knew that 4 kids was my limit, and my husband supported me in my decision for a tubaligation after my last c-section.  I have never felt bad or regret the decision. I just enjoy our family as is.

For me, the point of saying “we’re done” is that it accurately reflects our feeling and judgment.  We got married at 33 and have practiced NFP since the beginning.  We had three kids by age 40 and it seemed likely that that would be it.  But we weren’t entirely on the same page, and after prayerful conversation and deliberation, we ended up deciding to try for a fourth, whom we had at 42—-no regrets at all.  Now, for the past five years, we have had absolutely no inclination, either one of us, to consider trying for a fifth.  So we’re done—-not done for now, but simply done.  Admittedly, it creates challenges, such as a certain level of consternation and anxiety over possible NFP missteps.  But the thought of trying for another child would produce its own anxieties, concerning the quite possible negative health consequences.  So we are open to life, we are not going to do anything immoral—-but the truth of the matter, so far as we can tell, is that we’re done.

As a chaste single woman who deeply longs for marriage and children, I always feel so sad when women say that they are “done” having children. If they only knew how blessed they are to be happily married and able to conceive. I know that when I am blessed with a loving husband of my own, I will always remain open to life because I can see what a beautiful gift it is. All of you married women out there, you don’t know how lucky you are. Stay open to life as thanksgiving and humility towards God.

Thank you for this post.  Five days ago I went through the major trauma of a miscarriage gone wrong (my third miscarriage) that ended with an emergency D&C.  While I lay in the ER with staff running around frantically while my husband and a dear friend sat helplessly by, I thought, I just don’t know if I can do this again.  I have lost three babies.  This one is compounded with the trauma of bleeding at dangerous levels (thank God I live in this time period!) and emergency surgery. Much to my surprise I was home a couple of hours after the surgery and I was fine.  I cry daily right now and at this point I lack to courage to try again.  I do have a beautiful daughter.  She is 19 months old and she is such a blessing to me and my husband.  I desperately want a sibling for her, but right my fear and grief are overriding reason.  This post reminded me that I will not feel like this forever and God will give me the grace (just like he did to make it through Sunday night) when the time is right.  God bless.

Constance,
You are in my prayers today.  I too suffered a miscarriage at the beginning of the second trimester in late January of this year. I’m so sorry about the fear that came with yours.  I once had a miscarriage where I had to rush to the ER because I was hemorrhaging.  I had had two miscarriages before that, and neither, including the one at 22 weeks was as frightening—but every time is devastating.  I just wanted to let you know that I had a beautiful baby boy after that horrendous emergency miscarriage.  He is an utter joy to us. I never stop being thankful for that healthy little boy after so much pain and heartache. We were then blessed with two more beautiful healthy children, another boy, and a little girl. The ones that didn’t make it are blessings too.  Their souls are eternal, and I can’t wait to spend an eternity with them.
God Bless you and your whole family. 
This too will pass.

I admire your determination and faithfulness.

I’m with Erin Manning here.  I think we might be arguing about semantics, mostly.  I also have health problems in pregnancy and are avoiding and following the church rules for it.  We may adopt, but I have no problem saying I am done being pregnant.  Of course there is a chance that God will overrule our methods or medical science will advance and we can change our minds—we are Catholic and have faith!  However, since the chances of that happening are tiny, again, I am comfortable saying I am done with pregnancy.

The idea of “being done” is not Catholic no matter how many try to claim that it is. The primary end of marriage is the procreation of children. Yes there are serious reasons to abstain temporarily but these are few and far between. Just wanting to be done is never legitimate. Neither is paying down debt or wanting to save money. It is not permitted to delay because one wants to get “established or anything of that sort. It is for dire circumstances only. Also, if these circumstances exist, which must always be determined with the guidance of a good priest, the couple has the OBLIGATION to do all in their power to resolve whatever it is that is making this necessary in the first place. One is not supposed to just continue that indefinitely. NFP is not supposed to be a way of life like Catholics of late seem to think. It is supposed to be a temporary method only to be used rarely.  Obviously we can never judge individuals, but when one is in a Catholic church and every single family has the token 2.3 children, then we can be certain just from pure statistics that not everyone is behaving as they are supposed to.

Obviously we can never judge individuals, but when one is in a Catholic church and every single family has the token 2.3 children, then we can be certain just from pure statistics that not everyone is behaving as they are supposed to.
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And you just did judge those families Sam. You don’t know what happened to the couple with the “token 2.3 children” - death of a child (or children), multiple miscarriages, fertility problems in an older couple, etc… Just read the stories above and you’ll see all sorts of sorrow can befall a faithful family.
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I am 49 years old, my husband is 52.  We have no children, Sam. We had the incredible karmic chance to be 2 infertile people who happened to fall in love before we knew neither of us would ever have children.  How many couples do you see like us Sam?  And think they “...aren’t behaving as they are supposed to.” We tried for many years and in the end just accepted that this is how God made us - and became surrogate parents to countless children of our friends.
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We go to Mass every weekend; we are faithful Catholics in every way an imperfect, flawed human can be.  Quite frankly, we don’t need the judgment perpetrated by people like you who know nothing about our circumstances.
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The next time you think the smaller family sitting next to you isn’t doing their part to be faithful Catholics…think about me, Sam.

My prayers go out to all of you struggling to live a Catholic life. Raising kids can be hard, but it may help to think about this piece of advice from someone I met recently. After 65 years of marriage, I asked this gentleman the secret to a long and happy marriage: he replied “Have lots of kids, then you won’t have time to fight with your spouse.” God bless you all.

Sam, you are absolutely, 100% wrong. NFP does not have to be for “dire” reasons. The reasons merely need to be “serious,” which means “not trivial.” Paying down debt, saving money and getting established are absolutely serious reasons. Serious reasons are for the couple to decide. You do not need permission from a priest.

I guarantee you are single.

Interesting article for me to read right now. We just had our ninth child a week ago via c section. This was my ninth c section too! My husband and I have experienced God’s faithfulness to care for us in some amazing ways as we have continually abandoned ourselves entirely to His will for our lives and our futures. We have never been very well off financially but God has provided. My husband has received a raise after each birth of a new child. We may not get everything we want but we get what we need. I have been told several times in this past pregnancy that we should be done having children, it’s too risky, I am getting too old, what if something happens to me and the rest of the children lose their mom. It has been rough hearing my own doctor speak doom and gloom at each visit. But I chose to pray, ask for prayer, trust and not worry. Baby Caleb was born before 37 weeks and is beautiful and healthy and perfect! The surgery went “perfectly” according to the doctor and everything looked great. The doctors and nurses were very impressed with how well things turned out. Another doctor who assisted in the surgery came and spent an hour talking to my husband and I the next day about how wonderful it was to see parents like us. He said he wished he and his wife would have had more children. We witnessed to so many people and shared God’s love and faithfulness in a way that we could not do if we didn’t trust and remain open, no matter what, to God’s will. The beautiful baby boy is enough to say we are certainly not done. Only God, the creator of life, will make that decision.

I’ll check out everyone’s comments later, but wanted to add my own before heading away from the computer. We’ve been struggling, even though I’m only pregnant with our second child, because of a number of things: finances, my age (38), my health (fibroids + placenta previa growing on the one next to my c-section scar + previous c-sections), and just general exhaustion and lack of ability to take care of my oldest, who’s two. I’ve been on modified bedrest since 8 weeks, and was just told to kick it up so that I’m getting up and doing as little as possible, because of the placenta previa.

It’s been a lot to take in. My husband is terrified to lose me, my children need me, and I’m growing frightened, too ... the pain is, at times, almost unbearable. I’ve been offering up my suffering, but still feel as if I’m in the desert. I know that feeling will pass ... it will ... it’s just so painful and awful and lonely and exhausting now.

I’m trying to remain open ... reading your post is helping me with my struggles. Thank you.

Kris -
You kind of missed my point!  When I said we CANNOT judge an individual couple, I meant just that. You make my point. I don’t know if you, or you, or you are doing the right thing or not. Yes there are people who are infertile and I am sorry to hear that that is your situation. But people who are in that situation need to stop being offended when you are clearly not the ones I am talking about. I am talking about those who are preventing children, not those who physically cannot have them. My point is that even in Catholic Churches these days it is rare to see a family with more than 3 children. Statistically speaking it is HIGHLY IMPROBABLE that all of them are having fertility issues and it is completely my prerogative to make the observation. We should all condemn sin wherever it is found. You know that there are many Catholics out there that do use contraception and limit the number of children they have, so don’t try to make it sound like I’m crazy for stating the statistical argument I did. I very clearly said I can never know an individual’s circumstances. I could say the same things about many other things. Lets give an example - I have been at many many Masses where after Communion like 1/3 - 1/2 of the people leave right after communion without waiting for Mass to be over. Is this wrong to leave early? Yes it is. There might be an individual or family who must leave for a serious reason but 1/3 - 1/2 the parish every Sunday??? I don’t think so. Can I condemn this behavior? You better believe that I can!! Not judging an individual’s soul has nothing to do with condemning sinful behavior of any sort.

Sam, you might enjoy the following article:

http://karenedmisten.blogspot.com/2007/08/good-catholic-family.html

Cheers! :)

Why do people who are infertile and sad about not having any children so judging of people who choose to not have any more children than they want?

Where did you get that?  The only comment here that mentions infertility is from Kris, and she did not criticize fertile couples who have small families.  I am also infertile, and do not make presumptions or speculations about the reasons for fertile couples who have chosen to limit their family size.  You’re the one who’s being judgmental here.

Alice, perhaps your experiences would indicate differently, but I don’t think most of us are. Honestly, when I see a small family, my first thought is, “I wonder if they’ve suffered?” Obviously that suffering could take many shapes, be it infertility, miscarriage, death of a child, etc., or other health, family, or financial issues that would make the conception, gestation, and/or raising of that child difficult. However, if we DO seem troubled by families who declare, “We’re done…period!” without appearing to have put serious thought into the decision, perhaps it’s because we see fertility as the fragile, unmerited gift that it truly is. It’s a gift our culture takes for granted, manipulates, and even at times abhors, but it’s a gift, and when it’s a gift you haven’t been given, perhaps you’re keenly aware of what a blessing it is.

I want to thank you for including #2 in there, as I think that’s one of the biggest points and a lot of the comments seem to miss that. My parents were “done”, mostly by virtue of my father’s severe health problems and my mother nearing the end of her fertile years, with my youngest sister out of high school. When what does the Lord bring to them but my little cousins who needed shelter. They are now raising two more children with every expectation that they are fully part of our family unit. My mother was also the primary caregiver to her father in her last years, and now cares for her mother when she undergoes cancer treatments. It’s no picnic and I’ve certainly heard the grumbling, but they do it.

Sam you have no idea how many children God is calling ANY couple to have nor do you what His plan is for any of their families. Never forget that. Also remember that the priest at the beginning of the mass says “let us put ourselves in His presence and call to mind our sins” not “let us all look around at the pews and figure out how many sins we can find.

Ignore the specs of sinfulness in the eyes of your brothers and sisters in Christ and remove the plank of self righteousness from your own.

Katherine S:

” I see a small family, my first thought is, “I wonder if they’ve suffered?” Obviously that suffering could take many shapes, be it infertility, miscarriage, death of a child, etc., or other health, family, or financial issues that would make the conception, gestation, and/or raising of that child difficult.”

Do you think you’re first though is to whether you should feel sorry for a couple with few or no children is a compliment? It’s an automated judgment of character, because it’s unthinkable to you that family planning is just that—deciding what you want.

That’s where I get “that” from, Claire.

It is not self righteous to condemn evil and I do know that we should not be limiting our families -  To say otherwise is wrong. With all of this “don’t judge” talk people are avoiding this point. I can and will say this is wrong. People use the excuse of not judging to avoid saying the truth. It is wrong to limit one’s family size. It is wrong to deliberately only have 2 children. These actions are mortally sinful. I can say this. I will say this. Anyone who says otherwise is in error. Judging is to say that a person is going to hell. That is judging. To say that certain actions are sinful is not judging. We have a DUTY to condemn evil. All of this human respect that people do these days instead of proclaiming the truth is wrong. We must never let human respect get in the way of the Truth. The Truth is the most important thing. Hey if I cared about being judged I could complain that you are judging me about being “self-righteous.” But I don’t care. People always complain about being judged when they are doing wrong. I care about the Truth above all else. I have already made it clear we don’t know the minds and hearts of any one person. However, we do know that contraception is rampant in today’s society even amongst Catholics. This I do condemn with every fiber of my being. To say otherwise is heretical, evil, immoral, and yes - sinful. I will always, always speak out against it and will never be silent. This is our duty as a Catholic.

Another Mom: you are brilliant with #7! I am an only child and was raised with my mom always saying she would never have more (and with the easy pregnancy she tells me she has vs. my hard ones even I’d do it 10 times) and my dad always wishing he’d have more kids. Super mixed messages and I guess I’m lucky that I came along at just the right time. It really irked me to find out that my parents were using contraception even though I had no idea about Church teaching until I was a young adult. Something about it just unsettled me and made me feel that them always telling me that “babies are a blessing” really wasn’t true since they were obviously working so hard to avoid one.

Thanks for the reminder about the future changing. Ten years ago if you would have told me I’d be 26, married, with 3 kids and another one on the way I would have laughed in your face!!!

We started out our marriage ready to conceive and conceive we did. I had such bad PPD and PPA that we actually had to use NFP for 6 months and I told my husband that I’d never have another kid. Well, God somehow softened my heart and a week later #2 was conceived. After #2 everyone told us to stop and the usual comments ensued and we hoped to wait 2-3 years before conceiving again. And again, God somehow nudged me to be open to life and boom! #3 showed up! The same thing happened this time. We wanted to wait at least two years but we both started feeling the nudge again and here is #4. While we have an excellent financial situation we have zero family support but we’ve thankfully found a great support network of neighbors and friends from Church. We’ll do the best with what we’ve been given. :)

Last thought, Attachent parenting is not a catholic dogma or discipline. If it works for you great, if it doesn’t that’s fine too.

Kara- I was reading more of your comments and I totally feel you on the tug of war between career and mommyhood. I wonder if it’s from the expectations that were created for us and that we created during our younger years. I always dreamed of starting my own event planning company and had dreams of becoming famous via the blog world and in my area. Well, I had to put those plans aside for 5 years but my husband I decided that it was finally the right time for me to start a side business (even with #4 on the way) and it’s been great! Not what I would have ever imagined, but sometimes I have to wonder if being a full time career woman would have really truly made me happy? I have gotten 2 weddings for June, when I’ll be in my nice comfy second trimester, and I got to do two weddings in the 2nd half of last year plus I got to be on the committee for fundraising events at a local pro-life pregnancy center. And I get to throw birthdays parties for 3 girls every year. God will find a way to use your talents.

Katherine S. yes!this!
“It’s a gift our culture takes for granted, manipulates, and even at times abhors, but it’s a gift, and when it’s a gift you haven’t been given, perhaps you’re keenly aware of what a blessing it is.”
That is exactly it. Thank you for putting it into words!

-
also sometimes, when the mommies are asking for more support, for more church programs and delivered meals… it starts to grate. Every church has mommy programs, there are no ” you’re single and wasting your fertility groups” there are no ” lets get some single adult catholic men to church” groups, and no ” look a single woman without a trust fund is unemployed lets send her some food” organizations.  You HAVE a husband and children ( and occasional sex) and you don’t even SEE the childless and lonely in your own church. Nobody does, not even the priests. Sometimes the single, childless or infertile just want some to acknowledge we might be hurting over what we are missing in life.
Even when we delight in your children, sharing your joy by extension, the church mommies can’t get away from us fast enough.
Maybe they are not judging, but patiently asking you to see that you have much to be grateful for.

Tomas - It is not self righteous to condemn evil and I do know that we should not be limiting our families -  To say otherwise is wrong. With all of this “don’t judge” talk people are avoiding this point. I can and will say this is wrong. People use the excuse of not judging to avoid saying the truth. It is wrong to limit one’s family size. It is wrong to deliberately only have 2 children. These actions are mortally sinful. I can say this. I will say this. Anyone who says otherwise is in error.

Judging is to say that a person is going to hell. That is judging. To say that certain actions are sinful is not judging. We have a DUTY to condemn evil. All of this human respect that people do these days instead of proclaiming the truth is wrong. We must never let human respect get in the way of the Truth. The Truth is the most important thing. Hey if I cared about being judged I could complain that you are judging me about being “self-righteous.” But I don’t care. People always complain about being judged when they are doing wrong. I care about the Truth above all else. I have already made it clear we don’t know the minds and hearts of any one person. However, we do know that contraception is rampant in today’s society even amongst Catholics. This I do condemn with every fiber of my being. To say otherwise is heretical, evil, immoral, and yes - sinful. I will always, always speak out against it and will never be silent. This is our duty as a Catholic.

Sam:  yes, use of artificial contraception is unfortunately very common among Catholics.  Yes, there are probably Catholics who avoid (using NFP) for reasons that are questionably serious.  But that doesn’t mean that it’s automatically a mortal sin to have only two children or to limit family size.  The Church teaches that it is licit to use NFP to indefinitely avoid a pregnancy if there is a serious reason.  Discerning the serious reason is between the couple and God.

TRS : I was on your side of the fence for many years, and you’re right that parishes are sorely lacking in ministry to single people.  Then I got married, and even childless couples are invisible in parishes (and forget about ministry to infertile couples).  Then I adopted my son, and honestly, in my parish anyway, there isn’t much for young families either.  Although I know that some parishes are better about outreach to families, but unfortunately in mine that is not the case.  Ironically, at my parish the most active ministry is to senior citizens.  So by the time we turn 65, we’ll all have great support, regardless of our vocation!  But I agree that in general, ministry to singles is the most lacking of all these.

Actually Claire, the Church does not teach that. The Church teaches that the couple has the duty to rectify the situation making it necessary in the first place if at all possible. Using NFP indefinitely without seeking to rectify the difficulty is wrong. Also the common misconception out there is that it is between the couple and God. This is incorrect. NFP may only be used in consultation with a priest. This is to ensure that the reasons are sufficiently serious and not merely selfish or ones of convenience. Anyone who wants to argue this clearly does not understand the spirit of the law. This being said it is a MORTAL sin to limit one’s family size without the required serious conditions for avoiding being present. To limit one’s family size to 2 “just because” is mortally sinful. My point is that many are abusing this as is manifested when it is now very rare to see large families even in the vast majority of Catholic Churches.

Jen,

I enjoyed your article and I thought you made several good points.  However, #4 made me very sad.  I have always wanted a large family, and my husband and I have the fertility to create one.  However, after baby #2 my husband developed severe mental health problems.  They got worse after an “surprise” #3.  Just last week, he had to be committed after threatening to hurt me and our children.  I have had to accept that we are done, despite my very extreme desire not to be done.  If my husband is able to rejoin the family, it would be unwise to tempt his mental stability with further children.  He considers them to be largely to blame for his issues.  Not only could he hurt them, but I have to work to provide for the family during those times he is hospitalized.  I understand your point about others comments being discouraging.  I am sure that they are, but I think we need to be careful when expecting others to act in a way which validates our own choices.  As happy as I am to see large families or hear of another pregnancy, it causes me deep pain.  It serves as a reminder that I will likely never have more children, and that the life I thought I would have will not occur.  I would never expect others not to share their happy news with me because it causes me pain.  In the same light, I hope you will consider that you should not expect others not to share their own choices for your comfort or encouragement.  We all have our own lives to live.  No matter how hard we try, our choices will likely hurt someone else.  Sometimes, the people who tell you they are done need just as much encouragement with that choice as you do.

I generally get a lot out of your posts, but I feel like I needed this in particular right now, and just might print it out to have it nearby. I’ve been struggling with this, wanting to move on to the next stage, but feeling like God isn’t quite done with this stage in my life yet and I need to just take it one day at a time. I’ve found some peace with the idea of putting off the next child for a time, instead of being done, and that has given me just enough sanity to not give up and so something stupid I’ll regret.

Sam, you are WRONG. Couples absolutely DO NOT have to consult with a priest before using NFP. You are telling lies about Church teaching. STOP IT.

Sam,
You may be not be aware that your comments are in error, but that’s the kind of stuff folks make up about the Catholic Church to scare potential converts away.Please check out the facts about NFP. Thanks!

Sam: And where exactly does the Church teach any of what you said. The only faction of the Church saying anything like are the SSPX. Last time I checked they don’t have that kind of teaching authority.

Please proved magisterial documentation (not someones personal opinion) that:

1) You must always consult a priest. (I’m not going to debate the “spirit of a law” with anyone, that is nothing more than personal opinion.)
2) Using NFP for anything less than DIRE (life and death) reasons is a mortal sin.

No one has said anything about limiting their families to 2 children “just because” so I think we can toss that out safely as a cause of concern.

Also the comment about using NFP indefinitely with out seeking to rectify things I’m tossing as well because, honestly, that is just plan silly.  No sane person is going to life with a serious condition or situation JUST as an excuse not have to have anymore kids.

SD - They do. I am standing up for Catholic teaching in a world where people want to make their own decisions instead of seeking the guidance of the Church in serious matters. You MUST stop promoting this falsehood. Besides, why are you afraid to consult a priest. Are you afraid they will tell you that your reason is not serious enough? That can be the only reason one would not in fact want to consult a priest. Anyone who says otherwise is not accurately depicting the thinking of the Church in this matter. I will not be silent in face of such heresy! Too many today are promoting NFP as a method of limiting the size of one’s family. This is not its proper use. Stop proclaiming falsehood.

Sam,
Seriously?

SD didn’t say she was afraid to consult a priest (and neither did anyone else).  She said it wasn’t necessary, which is accurate.  If I had a serious reason to limit my family size and consulted with a priest in my diocese, I would probably be told to go ahead and use artificial contraception.  Consulting with a priest is not an automatic guarantee of ethical discernment.

Why such resistance? Sadly you are correct that not all priests would give proper advice. However one should consult the priest in all matters of discernment. It can be in confession if one prefers. The reason for this is to ensure one has sufficient cause to resort to this. People also always like to quibble about the words dire, serious, grave, just etc. This is just avoiding the point. Any moral questions should be discussed with a priest - a good faithful to the Church and Church teachings priest. It is necessary to ensure that one has the proper motivations. We tend to rationalize our reasons internally and so so ask the advice of the Church who is our Mother and Teacher as Pope John Paul II says in “Familiaris Consortio”. It is very clear in there the role of seeking the counsel of the Church in marital issues. Also 1951 Pius XII, “Address to Midwives” it is very clear that it is the intent that is important. “However if the limitation of the act to the periods of natural sterility does not refer to the right itself but only to the use of the right, the validity of the marriage does not come up for discussion. Nonetheless, the moral lawfulness of such conduct of husband and wife should be affirmed or denied according as their intention to observe constantly those periods is or is not based on sufficiently morally sure motives. The mere fact that husband and wife do not offend the nature of the act and are even ready to accept and bring up the child, who, notwithstanding their precautions, might be born, would not be itself sufficient to guarantee the rectitude of their intention and the unobjectionable morality of their motives.”  This is why we consult a priest - in order to bring our motives to light. We can be extremely self-serving in our motives and so wisdom and prudence would dictate an impartial 3rd party who can tell us if our reasons conform with Catholic principles. In all things we must submit to the judgement of the Church.

Why such resistance? Sadly you are correct that not all priests would give proper advice. However one should consult the priest in all matters of discernment. It can be in confession if one prefers. The reason for this is to ensure one has sufficient cause to resort to this. People also always like to quibble about the words dire, serious, grave, just etc. This is just avoiding the point. Any moral questions should be discussed with a priest - a good faithful to the Church and Church teachings priest. It is necessary to ensure that one has the proper motivations. We tend to rationalize our reasons internally and so so ask the advice of the Church who is our Mother and Teacher as Pope John Paul II says in “Familiaris Consortio”. It is very clear in there the role of seeking the counsel of the Church in marital issues.

Also 1951 Pius XII, “Address to Midwives” it is very clear that it is the intent that is important. “However if the limitation of the act to the periods of natural sterility does not refer to the right itself but only to the use of the right, the validity of the marriage does not come up for discussion. Nonetheless, the moral lawfulness of such conduct of husband and wife should be affirmed or denied according as their intention to observe constantly those periods is or is not based on sufficiently morally sure motives. The mere fact that husband and wife do not offend the nature of the act and are even ready to accept and bring up the child, who, notwithstanding their precautions, might be born, would not be itself sufficient to guarantee the rectitude of their intention and the unobjectionable morality of their motives.”  This is why we consult a priest - in order to bring our motives to light. We can be extremely self-serving in our motives and so wisdom and prudence would dictate an impartial 3rd party who can tell us if our reasons conform with Catholic principles. In all things we must submit to the judgement of the Church.

I see what Sam is saying. But…I think the truth is somewhere in the middle of the argument. Yes, NFP is licit for many of the reasons posted…health problems…mental health…spouses who don’t understand the Catholic view on welcoming children. But there is ALOT of abuse of the practice. It is amazing how many “2 kid” families are present in more that one affluent parish I have been in. Such a high population of “NPF justifiable reasons? really? Alot of the time it is used to maintain a “living standard” that previous generations would have been shocked at our “need” for. 2 kids so a family can do Disneyland and have 2 cars like the neighbours does happen alot. So like I said, let’s be careful in using all the actual valid reasons for NFP to justify all reasons. Making people “feel” okay about their decisions…even when they are wrong has become a “virtue” in our society.

Anon2 - Thanks for putting it so well. That is exactly what I’ve been trying to say.  - I especially like the part about the standard of living that people think necessary today and is merely luxury. Hence the need to seek counsel. Yes, Paul VI does say in Humanae Vitae that there may be reasons to limit the number. But he does say they need to be serious. Who is to determine this? It must be the Church we look to for counsel because Christ said “He who hears you, hears ME.” Left to ouselves the most trivial reason can look serious.

Sam: You are still pushing your personal opinion on the mater with out any authority behind it.

You quote the “Address to Midwives” and then give your own meaning of what it means, this is not what Catholics do.  As Catholics rely on what the the Magisterium of the Church says her documents say, not a single priest, or this lay person person or that group of priests opinion. The Address to Midwives is one of many documents of the subject, all of which need to be taken in to account when talking about this mater.

Sam, I do disagree with you on the need to consult priests for proper “authority” on the matter. That decision is in our court, like every other decision where we are faced with sinning or not. They do not have that authority…maybe you aren’t using the word you mean to use here…but they do have the spiritual insight (and often practical insight from hearing alot of confessions) to help you make the right decision in a situation where you are struggling with your intentions.

Anon2 and Sam: Do not judge others to validate your personal opinions. There are many reasons licit reasons someone might have a small family.  Assuming everyone or even most are sinning is uncharitable at best and serves no purpose other than to say “Thank you God for I am not like this Publican”.

Secondly, we know a large number of Catholics use contraception, condemning the use of something they aren’t using anyway is completely illogical.

By Name,
Hmmmm how quickly the “judging” stick is pulled out. I clearly didn’t say ALL small families are the result of improper use of NFP. Just that we have to be careful in our justification of ALL reasons. Did you actually read the words of my post? ...I didn’t even talk about artificial contraception. It is difficult to discuss things when, “insult and then get off topic is the tactic used” please stick to what is actually written.

Name - then read the document itself. Catholics do expound on documents and on Sacred Scripture that is what studying and debate is all about. And when you do take all the documents together as a whole it is clear that the Church does think it a wise and good thing to seek counsel and to seek the guidance of the Church. The is why the Church has teaching authority of its members. Why not take advantage of the Church’s wisdom. To refuse and reject it even if you consider it to only be advise is arrogance. It is to say that we know better than the Church. THis is not the case.

Sam: “But there is ALOT of abuse of the practice. It is amazing how many “2 kid” families are present in more that one affluent parish I have been in. Such a high population of “NPF justifiable reasons? really? Alot of the time it is used to maintain a “living standard” that previous generations would have been shocked at our “need” for. 2 kids so a family can do Disneyland and have 2 cars like the neighbours does happen alot.”

Not sure what else to call questioning the motives of ALOT of people based on exterior circumstances.

I’m not saying NFP is never abused, I’m just saying speculation on who is, who isn’t, who’s not using it at all, is completely counter productive. 

As you say we need to worry about ourselves and our motives.

Anon2 - yes we decide because we have free will. We seek counsel because we are faithful Catholics who want to follow the will of Christ. This is made known to us through the Catholic Church. We seek the counsel of a priest because the priest is placed there as God’s representative. One of the priest’s duies is to help guide, direct, and teach us in all moral issues. As I have mentioned before they can look at the issue objectively and see whether it is a legitimate reason or not. As I mentioned before, we tend to always think our own reasons are good. Sometimes we need a third party to say “hey, wake up, a TV in every room is not a necessity, nor is a personal airplane, going out to eat every day, etc. etc.”

Name - Please don’t forget that there are some families with one or two children who would love to have more children but are struggling with infertility. Please don’t pass judgement on individual families.

Name - first, that quote you just gave was not mine. Second I’m not speculating on who is and isnt sinning. That is for God. I am saying that it is rampant in our world today and lamenting that fact, as should every faithful Catholic.  Speaking out against sin is what we are all called to do. I am condemning sin. I am not saying this or that person is committing the sin. I am saying it is very common today and that is true. If people are offended with anyone condemning sin then so be it. We are commanded to “Hate the sin, love the sinner.”  Loving the sinner never means not hating the sin!

MCD - I just want to make quite clear I am condemning doing it by choice for frivolous and trivial reasons as is common today. Someone always mentions those struggling with infertility. They are not doing anything wrong and therefore are not the topic here. When the national average is 2 kids and that is all that is seen everywhere - I know that not everyone can be having fertility issues. Again we can never know any one person’s case but as a whole it can’t be everyone having difficulty getting pregnant.

Name - I just think it’s important that we all remember that before looking around at Mass and passing judgement on particular families in our own minds and hearts. I’m clearly not suggesting that this is why most families are small.

This is a very *serious* topic.  I always consult with a trusted priest about serious issues.  A good spiritual director is a good thing.  I don’t *have* to consult a priest, but I don’t always trust that I can see the forest for the trees.
@Erin, I’m so sorry about your situation, I pray it gets better.  I can’t imagine that the great saints who never had the joy of having a baby at all will have less joy in heaven.  We can “give birth” to souls without ever gestating a baby!  Our “fruitful yes” to God can take many forms.  Perhaps you will have many other *spiritual* children whose conversions are the fruit of your suffering.
.
I don’t think any of us here need to be at odds with each other, in the understanding that our primary concern in life should be that we live for God and for others; or that the luxuries of this earth should only be a “means”, never an “end” in themselves.
.
I really can’t imagine what my neighbor’s true circumstances are, so while I always like to encourage others to have the faith and hope to have children, I can’t possibly know how serious their circumstances might be.
.

“One human soul has more worth than the collective material worth of the universe.” —Saint Thomas Aquinas
.
That one helps me keep it real.

MCD, I’m sorry if I didn’t make my self clear.  That is one of the many reasons I object to anyone making assumptions of what families are doing based on their outward appearance. That family with two kids, two cars and Disney vacations may be the same family that would give it up in a heart beat to have the health/fertility to have more children.

Sam: yeah I noticed that after I hit enter.  That quote was in reply to Anon2. 

In reply to you: I have read “The Address to Midwives” and it seems that some people give it more authority than the encyclicals and other papal works on the subject because they think the language favors their interpretation better.

Your not condemning sin, your making up sin. Using NFP for less than a life or death situation is not mortally sinful. The use of NFP for serious/just/weighty reasons is morally licit. Humanae Vitae clearly states:
“With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time. “

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

It does not say “only life and death situations else suffer mortal sin”.

But it must be serious and that is what everyone always ignores these days!  Dire, serious, grave, etc lets not quibble about the word. the concept is clear. It can’t just be done on a whim. The reason must be serious and we should seek counsel. This is clear in John Paul II’s Familiaris Consortium which I also mentioned. If the serious reason is missing then the action is serious sin.

Sam: Dire is not a word used by the Church; serious, weighty, just, these words are use commonly used when talking about licit reasons for NFP, grave is rarely used. It does not say anywhere we *must* seek counsel.  You need to provide the quote or section you are referring to in Familiaris Consotio (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio_en.html) I do not see what you say it says.

“Alice”, that quote from Katherine S was AFTER your original comment where you made the blanket, judgmental generalization about infertile women and how they feel about small families.  If you want to be a hypocrite and call her judgmental just because she wonders if people are suffering, go ahead.  But I know who you are now, so don’t bother addressing any future comments to me.

Claire—the trouble is that the judgment is subtle, but pervasive. That’s why Katherine S’ comment was a better example than the one I was working on.

It is not stated directly, but in expressions and gestures that indicate they believe something is “off” because we’ve been married so long and yet have few children. Is it because of infertility, or contraception? Do we still “have marital relations” or is something wrong with the relationship?

Katherine S explained it perfectly. Her first thought is “are they suffering?”

You have no grounds for writing that I’m hypocritical.

Keep talking to yourself, troll.

The way you replied, I think your talking to the wrong person. Try a mirror.

I told you “Alice”, I know who you are now, because your hypocritical comments speak for themselves.  Don’t bother addressing future comments to me.  I will save my dialogue for people who are here for legitimate purposes (and who contain at least one iota of empathy for others).

I doubt that you “know” anything.

I’ve just learned that Claire has a list of people she doesn’t like and has grouped them together as a “stalker” on Jennifer’s site. Now her comments make sense to me.

Those of us who were not able to have as many children as we really wanted have a different struggle, but a struggle none the less.  Our Lord gives us the crosses and the joys that please Him to give to us.  I have tried to be much more involved in the RE programs in the parishes we have belonged to.  There are many children who can benefit spiritually from the abundance of love God put in our hearts for children who were not physically conceived.  Your article is very beautifully written…the underlying theme seems to me to be “Wait on the Lord, be stouthearted and wait on the Lord.”  Let Him decide how many lives He wants to entrust to each of us…..and in what manner He will entrust them.

Sam, just please tread carefully and very compassionately when you assume that “2 kid families in affluent parishes” are like that by choice.  Many of us have had to use NFP in reverse to get pregnant.  I seldom explain all of the heartache of infertility to anyone, but our second child took us a long time to conceive, and yes, we have only 2.  And to a casual observer, we’d look like we just decided on our own that two was enough….. only the Lord knows the heart….so I say to all the parents who have the ability to freely cooperate with the Lord on how many children they can welcome, you are so very, very blessed.  And thank you for having and loving the children that we could not…..I think a very profound Communion of Saints…..

Little Dove,
Those were very nice comments. Thank you.

Game-playing trolls certainly are good at fooling themselves into thinking that anyone here believes their lies or takes them seriously…

What ever you say, Claire.

“With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time. “

Yeah, but I still can’t use a condom and my wife can’t take the pill?

If I understand His Holiness, he is giving me the OK to keep my family to a manageable size. So why can’t we decide how to do that?  What say should anyone have on our method?  NFP good, condom bad, pill bad, morning after pill don’t even think about it. Right…Got it. Thanks for your guidance but we’ve got this.

BillS,
Good Morning!
The Church can’t tell you what to do, only what you should do.And it’s a free country, so you have the choice to listen or not, believe or not.

Hi Kathleen.

My procreation days are far behind me anyway. And just checking in and being difficult at the same time. Hope the kids and grand kids are doing well.

Mr Bill,
Hope your day goes well.
I think you’ve had good things to share in the comment boxes.Disagreeing isn’t necessarily being difficult.And it’s through folks disagreeing that we can each learn more.As long as folk disagree in charity & show respect, it can turn out be a good thing in the end.
Kids & grandchildren all well.Many thanks for asking. Hope you & your’s are well, too.
God bless.

Dear Jennifer,
I came from a very large family (10 children) and I wouldn’t recommend it. There is no individual attention, if
one has a problem who notices it?.  Bringing another soul into this world may sound spiritual, but not very
practical as far as raising them. Responsible parents would think about this. As far a sex is concerned just
Because you’re married you’re not released from responsibility. Husbands especially should remember St. Paul’‘s
Words about husbands loving their wives and giving themselves up for her.

Every size family has its advantages and disadvantages.  My son is an only child, so he gets lots of individual attention.  But it breaks my heart that I am unable to give him the gift of a sibling.  I’m sure that there are people from small families who didn’t have great experiences either, but there are probably other people from both big and little families who have had good experiences.  It’s not something that can be generalized.

@Gil Martin, I’m sorry you didn’t have the best experience in your large family.  We have eight, ranging in age from three to 25.  They are all roughly three years apart.
They love each other a lot.
The older ones go out together and live together.  They are the best of friends.
The little ones play together.
Every time we had a new baby, the baby became the delight of everyone and the reigning King or Queen of the household.
None of them has ever been jealous about a new baby.  They would become ecstatic at the prospect of a new sibling.
We love going out to eat and (ahem) even bump into the older ones at our favorite bars.
We take the little ones to the beach, the movies, the park…
They love to wrestle with their Dad on “wrestling night”.
The middle ones do projects and hang out with us in the family room.
The only problem is our little girl Charlotte.  She is so loved and doted upon by the nine of us, that I’m afraid we are spoiling her.
Hopefully a grandchild will knock her from her throne before it’s too late. :)
p.s. Hi BillS, hope you are doing well :)!

Anna Lisa, I hate to ask, but does this mean that you are not expecting another addition in a few months?  If so, I am so sorry for your loss.

Anna Lisa,

Did I know that you have 8 kids?  Sounds like you’ve got it under control.

How do you know if your only child <i>wants<> a sibling? Usually they like all that attention. Just a general question.

I think he does like the attention.  I also know what a huge gift a sibling would be for him, and I know that there are times when he wishes he had another child to play with.  And he absolutely loves babies and can’t keep his hands off his friends’ siblings.  But like I said, there are advantages and disadvantages to every family size.  Anyway, thank you for a thoughtful question, Alice.  (And I mean that sincerely.)

Claire, thank you for asking. They keep slipping through my fingers now.  This life is short, eternity is forever.  Won’t so many beautiful realities be revealed after the veil is rent?

Oh Annalisa, I’m so sorry.  I was a little worried that you hadn’t mentioned the pregnancy lately.  You certainly have had more than your share of losses in recent months.  Thankfully you have a whole army interceding for you in Heaven.  You are an inspiration.

And to go even further on an off-topic tangent:  today is the 5th anniversary of the due date for the identical twins that I miscarried.  Earlier today my son and I prayed that my husband would be home in time for dinner.  God said no to that prayer.  I explained to my son that even though we wish God had said yes, He knows details that we don’t.  Maybe he knows that we will need the extra money from the overtime.  Maybe he knows that the client my husband was caring for really needed my husband.  I then explained to my son that for years I prayed to God to be able to grow a baby in my belly, and that I was sad when God said no to that prayer.  But now that I have my son, I know why God said no, and I am now glad about it (which isn’t to say that I’m glad I miscarried, but you know what I mean).  I explained to him that if God had said yes to my prayer, I probably wouldn’t have had the opportunity to adopt my son.  I’m trying to convey to him in 5-year old terms that God knows the bigger picture much better than we do, which is why he sometimes his “no” is actually a blessing.

Claire, I am at peace like you are.  “All things work together for good for those that love the Lord.”...
God Bless your sweet family.

“God said no to that prayer.  I explained to my son that even though we wish God had said yes, He knows details that we don’t.”

Claire, forgive me for intruding and trying to tell you how to raise your son, but I feel I must try to reason with you. As you know, I don’t believe in divine intervention of any kind and that many things have human or natural causes or just simply happen at random. I firmly believe that you should raise your son to understand that the Creator of the universe does not micromanage His creation. There is cause and effect. There are laws of nature that cannot be violated or suspended. Your son must learn to master his own destiny and not turn to God for every little thing like praying for his father to be on time or healing someone, or making sure that nothing bad happens to him, making him mad at God when it does. I’ve already said more than I should but you should teach your son the concept of randomness. Maybe play a board game and showing him that the roll if the dice is an example of how God allows some things to happen strictly by random. The whole concept of evolution is based on random mutations and natural selection.  I hope nothing I say offends you. I mean well.

Hi Bill.  No, I am not offended by your comment, and I actually agree with much of what you wrote.  I believe in randomness and free will, and I don’t believe that God is a puppeteer from above.  That being said, I do not see anything wrong with teaching my son to take his concerns to God.  In our house, we act as if it all depends on us and pray as if it all depends on God.  I believe that on occasion God actively intervenes.  Other times he allows things to happen, but as Annalisa says, he will always eventually work things for the good for those who serve him.  He can do that in indirect ways (such as putting a bug in our ear, giving us an intuition, etc).  Anyway, that’s the short version because I’m kind of swamped right now.  I’m sure there are others who can put it better.

Bill,
You are mostly correct as far as I can understand it, but when we observe evolution, natural selection…—whether or not our husband will come home on time… we need to look upon God as the intimate participant in our lives who has our hairs counted. No, he usually doesn’t suspend the laws of nature that He keeps in motion. He is not a distant CEO.  He already came to this earth and did everything he could to save us.  Now *we* must be the hands, the mouth and the ears of Jesus on this earth.  That is why we are here.
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I do agree with you completely that we need to teach our children the gravity of this mandate.  There *are* times however when we simply need to “let go and let God.”, or “be still and know that I am God”... and allow ourselves to rest peacefully in the palm “that carved us”.
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I have a friend who has had stage four breast cancer for five years now. It has gone to her brain as well.  She has had excellent cutting edge care at UCLA, and her friends pray for her everyday with a special urgency.  She has already beat the odds in many ways, simply because she is alive and walking around caring for her seven children.  She had started blogging several years before her diagnosis, so her children have a beautiful testament of her love for them.  Do our prayers help keep her alive so her five year old can get to a point where she will always remember her mother?  Yes, I believe so.  I am hoping that Suzanne is one of those cases where one day the scans come up all “clean”—proof of an amazing miracle (yes! These miracles *do* happen) But in the mean time, TODAY is a miracle because she should have been dead a long time ago.  When she told me two years ago that she might die within the month if radiation on her brain tumors didn’t make them shrink, I was shocked. After some reflection, I have to always remind myself that we humans tend to make this world the “end all, be all”—we can only see death as a tragedy, but from the other side, it really looks more like our true birthday.  Even as the mother of seven, my friend Suzanne is at peace.  She has a strong husband who loves her, and others who surround her.
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Check out her blog at “Raising Saints”.  She is a beautiful inspiration.
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Love is stronger than death.

I agree with Bill S—what do parents who can’t afford Christmas Gifts say about Santa Clause?

Some one may not come home because s/he was killed in a car crash. Why attribute that to God when a drunk driver is to blame? In any case, people are late for secular reasons—God has nothing to do with it.

When my Children ask me to pray for them to do well on a test, I tell them that I will pray that they are *calm* and able to think clearly, so they can remember everything they *studied*.  My longer comment is caught in moderation. 
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I’m pretty sure Claire doesn’t approach God like those televangelists in Dallas do.

Exactly Anna Lisa.  I tried to make that point in my second comment, but it somehow got missed.  Anyway, anyone who disagrees is fine to raise their children the way they see fit.  I wasn’t telling anyone else how to raise their children.  But it is my perogative to raise my son according to my faith.

Claire,
I hear you.I think all the strange, random-seeming pieces of life we encounter have a shape & purpose we will see more clearly in eternity.Occasionally we can figure out a pattern in this life, but our faith doesn’t depend on it.

Kathleen,

I hate to disagree with you but “(stuff) happens”. There doesn’t have to be a reason for everything.

Bill,
I think ultimately there’s a reason, but we don’t always need to know why.
It’s OK to disagree, too.
You have a good evening!

Just wanted to share a lovely article I saw online by an uncle writing about the effect his 14 mos. old nephew had on others during his short lifetime.Hope you all might take a look.It was very moving & kind of fits in with this blog subject.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/tim-carney-an-awful-loss-a-beautiful-life-a-daunting-task/article/2522421

“I tell them that I will pray that they are *calm* and able to think clearly, so they can remember everything they *studied*. “

That is good in that it boosts their confidence.  I used to drive cab in some of the worst parts of Boston and I used to pray the rosary thinking that I was protected. I did great but when I look back I realize that I could have got myself killed.

My mother told me a story that one day in about 1960 (before birth control) a neighbor lady saw her in the yard hanging clothes and stopped to chat.  Or so it seemed.  The truth was that the neighbor just found out she was pregnant.  She shared her concern with my mother.  She had two other children who were already grown and off on their own.  This was a “late-in-life surprise” baby, and she didn’t want to start all over again.  She actually was thinking of “getting rid of it.” (Hard to do in those days, but possible.)  My mother encouraged her not to do so.  Maybe all the neighbor was looking for was a little encouragement that it would be okay, since she and my mom were about the same age, and my mom just had my little brother.  Well, she ended up having a little boy.  Her husband was just delighted.  We grew up with this kid on our block.  He was the best kid, and just a joy to be around.  Years later the neighbor lady thanked my mother, saying this child was the light of her life.  He grew up, married and started a family, and after her husband died, he moved her in with him.  He cared for her until her death.  You never know God’s plan for you.

Bill S,
Before any of my kids were born, my husband and I decided to drive down to Rosarito Beach in Mexico for a long weekend.  Our cars were pretty junky so my Dad offered to lend us his.  He even went to the gas station to gas it up, check the fluids etc.  My husband and I decided to pray a rosary about 30 minutes into the trip.  We were driving along peacefully when suddenly, someting “blew” under the hood.  We pulled off onto an underpass.  My husband got out of the car and lifted up the hood—it appeared that my father had failed to screw the top of the water tank on correctly.  Suddenly a truck pulled up behind us.  A man swiftly got out with a big container of water with a nozzle, and wordlessly filled the water tank.  He left the way he came without saying a word.
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About fifteen years later, my entire family, (five kids and my housekeeper’s husband who was driving us to LAX) were on the 405 in somewhat heavy, but fast moving traffic.  We were in our big black ‘90 Suburban.  We noticed one of those hothead drivers, weaving in and out of traffic.  I remember my husband saying something to the effect of “that guy is going to cause an accident.”  Literally seconds later, we watched in horror as he collided with the car in front of him.  I have never seen an accident happen right in front of us.  I remember thinking that his car looked like an accordion as it crumpled.  Our driver slammed the brakes on.  To this day we have absolutely no idea what happened because the car stopped on a *dime*.  Nobody was thrown forward.  We didn’t skid even a foot.
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When we had gotten on the road that day, we had all prayed, asking God, and our angel guardians to keep us safe.
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I have a couple more stories like that if you want to hear them.

All these lovely stories about how unplanned pregnancies produced great kids!

It’s equally possible they could produce John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Adam Lanza, and other sociopaths. Many people wish they had never been born.

Lottie, thank you for sharing that beautiful story.

Lottie,
Thank you so much for your comments.
Years ago, I stopped in a little mom & pop owned pet shop to let my young children look at the animals.One of the owners was there with her child.I had either 2 toddlers & one more on the way or some combination like that. She looked kind of wistfully at my children & shared how she would love to have another child but was worried about the expenses involved, etc. We talked for a little while about budgeting,using second hand items,paying off debt, etc can impact a family’s finances & what was really important in our lives-our families or material stuff?
We had a good conversation & after my kids looked at all the critters, I left.
Fifteen or so years later I was passing through that small town & stopped by the pet shop again.There,assisting the owner, was a lovely young girl, her second child.
As you said, maybe it’s just a word of encouragement.I’m not sure it was my words, but it might have been a part of it.

That’s awesome Kathleen.  Thank God that the good in humanity outweighs the bad.

Anecdotal stories about people who were glad they didn’t have an abortion are great. But they should only be used to persuade and not to prohibit.  I feel obliged to defend a woman’s right even if I would seek to discourage it. I think making a choice to go through with a pregnancy is a far nobler thing to do than being forced to do so.

Claire,
Thanks. I thank God there’s more good, too.

Bill,
What is most important is that we build a culture of LIFE.  What is most hurtful of all is *indifference* to the pain and suffering of others.
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I just found out this morning that a member of my niece’s wedding party, which will happen this summer just took his own life.  He was a young man in his 20s.
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My son just got back from a “Youth in Government” trip to Sacramento.  Every delegation came with a “bill” to pass.  They gave speeches, and voted on these bills.  The “right to die” bill passed by a horrifying 95%.
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Kids have been taught that if they are suffering, life is not worth living.  We have lost our Christian understanding of pain.

My cousin’s oldest son took his life in his twenties. Tragic. I would never condone that kind of suicide. But there are circumstances where a person is totally justified in ending their life on their own terms. The Oregon Death with Dignity Law sets out typical circumstances where a terminal patient can be prescribed a life ending dose of sedatives. I supported a similar bill for Massachusetts but the Catholic vote successfully defeated it. I don’t think it will become law here anytime soon. I don’t believe in the redemptive power of suffering. There is no need to suffer a long and painful death.

Bill,
I’m sure God is merciful to the suffering who end their lives because they are blinded by pain.  I don’t believe in artificially prolonging a life.  Comforting and easing the pain of the sick with medicine is a tender and important apostolate.
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I revere those who become icons of Christ, when they embrace the whole world with their suffering.  John Paul the second was such a man.  The grace of his life, suffering and death touched untold millions—perhaps more.
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At the end of the day, what are we here for Bill?

Perhaps it would help to go to a “way of the Cross” this Friday, and ask God to show you.  I will go “with you” at my church, “Our Lady of Sorrows”...

Thanks Anna Lisa.

Bill S,
You’ve been in my prayers,too. Have a good evening.

Suicide rates for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning (LGBTQ) youth and adults in the U.S. are three times higher than national averages. According to some groups, this is linked to heterocentric cultures and institutionalised homophobia in some cases, including the use of LGBTQ people as a political wedge issue, such as in the contemporary efforts to halt legalizing same-sex marriages. Many tie bullying, including cyberbullying to suicides of LGBTQ youth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth
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Yet Catholics are victimized by same-sex marriage. Go figure

Mia,

Your point is well taken.  Especially institutionalized homophobia.

Anna Lisa,

Although there is no way I would ever go back to believing again, I must admit that the Catholic faith certainly has had positive effects on my life and on people like you. The only problem I have with Catholics is the list of controversial issues in which I disagree with the Church and side with the government.  It’s hard to understand how devout Catholics can side with the Church all the time. With disagreements on all these issues, what are the chances that one side would be right every single time. Yet, that is what the Church would have us believe.

Other than that, I have the utmost respect for dedicated people like those I have conversed with on Jennifer’s blog.

Bill,
I really think that the way we believe is a matter of “perspective”.  As Simcha Fisher wrote a few weeks back, so many people have a false idea about God—like he’s some kind of “vengeful Santa Claus”, who is just waiting to “catch us in the act” so he can put coal in our eternal stocking.  I have no faith in that God either!  What I do understand is that all of creation is governed by laws that we can believe in—or not.  Truth is immutable—and also nearly unknowable—but God is patient, and teaches us like children.
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Yes, societies are governed by rules.  There would be (more)chaos and (more)bodies by the side of the road if they weren’t.
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As for the GLBTQz (?!—they keep adding consonants!)  I just don’t know.  I’m not an expert.  There is so much anguish there, and my heart goes out to anybody that suffers.—There are no simple solutions…But then, who of us has *not* had to deal with difficult sacrifices in this life, in order to be at the service of the One True Love?

@Bill, If you read the teachings of the church on homosexuality, you wouldn’t call this “institutional homophobia”—google it, and you will see for yourself.  If there was this kind of homophobia, wouldn’t it follow that all of those homosexual predator priests would have been quickly and efficiently eliminated from the priesthood, and hauled to the nearest precinct?

Check out this video:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6jrngYNGNeE

“If there was this kind of homophobia, wouldn’t it follow that all of those homosexual predator priests would have been quickly and efficiently eliminated from the priesthood, and hauled to the nearest precinct?”

What does it matter whether they were homosexual or heterosexual rapes? That is what should have happened anyway. Are you trying to say that the fact that it didn’t demonstrates that the Church is not homophobic?  I fail to see the logic of that argument. Those were horrendous crimes that should be prosecuted.

WOW!  Great article, but even more amazing the number of responses.  My wife just wrote an amazing article that I’m sure you would all enjoy reading.  The title of her blog is “Are We Done Yet?”
http://catholicap.com/2013/03/are-we-done-yet/

I’m pregnant with #3 and thinking we will be done “for now” once this baby arrives. If you want to make God laugh, right? So I accept as a Catholic I can never say with 100% certainty we are done with children, but based on what I can see now and the input of the Holy Spirit, I think we are. The difference between our view and contracepting/sterilizing friends is that ours doesn’t come with 100% certainty (like they think their choice does, even though statistics with contraception and sterilization obviously dispute that). So if we did change our minds later or ended up with a “surprise” it wouldn’t be as much a shock to us and we would still welcome that. For me, being done with our family doesn’t mean a road to easy street, just a different way for me to serve our family and to work together as a family to serve others together - one that wouldn’t be so feasible if we continued increasing our family size. Every family is called to something a little different in terms of family size and place in this world.

Bill S—you have raised a good point. Many girls are abused in the Church by priests and they get very little attention.
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http://rense.com/general24/lifelonghorror.htm
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http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/vatican-admits-priests-are-raping-nuns-around-the-world/question-3382051/
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http://tribune.com.pk/story/213254/original-sins-priest-arrested-for-raping-girl/
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http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159895
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The focus on raping boys has a lot to do with the Church’s stand against homosexuality. It it totally contrary to their doctrine to abuse members of the same sex, but men raping and abusing women is not forbidden.

” So I accept as a Catholic I can never say with 100% certainty we are done with children, but based on what I can see now and the input of the Holy Spirit, I think we are. The difference between our view and contracepting/sterilizing friends is that ours doesn’t come with 100% certainty (like they think their choice does, even though statistics with contraception and sterilization obviously dispute that).”

You are not leaving your fate to Divine Providence by not practicing contraception. You are allowing God’s will to be done by screwing up your NFP. either you want more kids or you don’t. If the latter, use an effective method of birth control. It’s your choice to control your life or leave it to chance.

NFP is not leaving anything to chance.  It is a highly effective method of family planning which does allow God’s will to be done. 

I see that Sandy/Alice/Rose has a new alias with which to hide behind her lies.

Please don’t be too hard on yourself while you are still pregnant.  My husband and I planned on having many children, but while I was in labor with our second, I told him repeatedly that I was NEVER going to do this again.  I was done!  I think it was about 30 minutes after she was born that he brought it up, concerned.  I told him not to believe everything he heard in a labor and delivery room!  I think it’s OK during a very stressful time to think, “I can’t do this again,” as long as nothing is permanently decided.  We now have six children, and would love to have more, but we are not actively pursuing pregnancy because of my life threatening illness.  Are we open to life?  Yes!  We’re willing to accept a new life, but don’t think it’s responsible to actively pursue it.

Bill,
The statistics speak for themselves: The vast. majority. of. abuse. was. male. on male.  To point this out is NOT to disregard the suffering of the female victims.
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*I* wouldn’t have sent those creeps to rehab.  I would hope all their therapy would have happened in prison.  But now we know that therapy rarely works like chemical castration does.  Too little too late, or as my mother would say, “hindsight is 20/20.”
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The church hierarchy was far too tolerant of those deviates.  That kind of “mercy” is no mercy at all when it comes to sexual addiction—But then again,on any given Saturday evening at around 4:30 they can hear from all manner of people weeping about all kinds of horrible things they’ve done to others.

Or in other words, we have an *entire culture* that is sexually addicted, and uses others as objects for sexual gratification.
The trolls always show up to defend their “rights” to *everything.

Very true, Annalisa.  In the 80s, when most of the abuse occurred, conventional wisdom said to send any abusers (priests or otherwise) to rehab.  Now we know that the chance of rehabilitation for sexual abusers is very slim, and they should not be allowed any access to children.  Hindsight is always 20-20.

Anna Lisa,

My attitude toward repentance is that your sin isn’t forgiven unless you are forgiven by the victim. For these perverts to think that they can confess their sins to another priest and then act as if nothing happened is one of the great fallacies. The should be required to turn themselves in to the police as part of their penance.

I agree with you on that, Bill.

Bill, God *always* forgives when there is true repentance, but it’s not as simple as going to the black box carwash—Hopefully our lives are long enough to make reparation.  You could very well be right that this “prison” of the victim’s pain could mean spiritual incarceration for a very. long. time.

Posted by anna lisa on Wednesday, Mar 6, 2013 1:24 PM (EST):

Or in other words, we have an *entire culture* that is sexually addicted, and uses others as objects for sexual gratification.
The trolls always show up to defend their “rights” to *everything.
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Yes, Catholic culture is sexually perverse, using children as objects for sexual gratification, and Catholics always claim they’re being attacked and victimized. They shouln’t be allowed to vote.

It will probably make prison on this earth look like a day at the spa for those creeps.

No Alice, sexual deviates are creeps, and you saying I, who have lived 27 years of perfectly faithful monogamy—have “no right to vote” is creepy too.
The Catholic Church helped me form my conscience.  I am very grateful for this.—But isn’t that what trolls do,—when they bark and bark ad nauseum for their licentious lifestyles that abuses everybody and their dog?

Because 2% of priests are sexually deviant, that means that the entire Catholic culture is perverse and uses children as sexual objects.  There’s some great logic there.  Especially coming from someone who is obsessed with sex and has often in the past speculated about our sex lives and made lewd and vulgar sexual comments.  Hmm, who’s the deviant here?

Claire and anna lisa—your comments are more evidence of Catholic moral relativism. You are much better than I am at tolerating cognitive dissonance.

“Especially coming from someone who is obsessed with sex and has often in the past speculated about our sex lives and made lewd and vulgar sexual comments.”
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Maybe so—but you haven’t given any example of lies.

Moral relativism=subjective morality.  I’m not seeing any evidence of that in any of Annalisa or my comments.

Yes, moral relativism is subjective morality—that is my point. You will “forgive” the Church anything—but the same things done outside the Church.
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No, wait—that might be mis-phrased. You won’t look at any evidence that the Church has committed the same crimes done outside the Church. Jesus forgives sins, and that overrides any anger experience by the victims of the crime.
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Your morality is subjective—you defend the abuses done by the Church while you condemn the same abuses done out of Catholic jurisdiction. You justify suffering inflicted by the Church rather than empirical evidence of the harm done. You fall for Catholic propaganda and ignore peer-reviewed science. Ad homenin attacks are common responses to factual posts on valid websites. You respond to honest critical questions with hostility and venom.

Which ever lie you can cite, beside pseudonyms which I explained, I’m waiting.

Sorry-that first paragraph was incomplete. To clarify: You forgive the Church anything, but the same crimes done outside the Church are unforgivable, and attributed to secular “sexual deviation.”

That is pretty hypocritical, coming from the queen of ad homenin hostility, venom and vitriol.  Sorry, ever since you rewarded my answer to a question of yours by attacking my intentions toward my child (and in doing so, displaying your ignorance about hospital admissions), I will pick and choose what I spend time responding to.  I don’t have to cite anything.  Anyone who is remotely familiar with you knows your history of lying, manipulating and game-playing. I have no desire to re-read your posts in order to answer a question that doesn’t need to be answered.  Reading your comments once is more than enough for me.

You don’t like me, and I appreciate that. It’s arrogant, however, to declare that my ideas are wrong simply because my ideas upset you. You have labeled me a troll, but you have to state why your reasons, except that I offend your faith. It is not a human right to not be offended. If you think I am wrong, give me a reasonable answer.
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All you have ever suggested in opposition to my comments is that I “don’t understand” or I’m “ignorant” of Catholic beliefs. How are Catholic beliefs so different from any others?
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Claire, anna lisa, et al, like it or not, you are prejudiced against me because of what you call your faith. You have no objective standard of morality except the Church, and when it is guilty of crimes against humanity, you defend the Catholic Church.
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Perhaps I did mis-state my opinion of your moral relativism, but it is a very slithery term. You believe in the Church and refuse the idea that it might be wrong. Why should you have the right to vote when any objection to your beliefs is wrong? The Catholic Church is not a democracy.

“Bill, God *always* forgives when there is true repentance, but it’s not as simple as going to the black box carwash”

Anna Lisa,

The only true repentance for child abuse is to turn yourself in, plead guilty and do your time. Telling yourself that God forgives you is just a form of denial and I think it causes even more abuse.

Bill, I’m sorry if you didn’t understand that I agree with you on that.
@ ” ” I’m not sure whom to address, but I’d just like to point out that you have a really hard time apologizing for your loose canon.  As far as sins go, whether they are Catholic, Hindu, Gay, Muslim etc etc etc etc, remember this:
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The only sin that can’t be forgiven is the one that is not repented of.
Period.
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Did you get that, ”  “?  Regardless of creed, color, and orientation.  But I don’t expect your abortion loving, promiscuity touting tirade to end any time soon.
@Bill, the penalty that accompanies forgiveness can’t be extracted from this equation.  I’ll let God sort out what this really means.  In this life, all criminals need to be appropriately punished.  Unfortunately, life on this planet is not always fair.  I’ll let God sort out what we failed to accomplish, because of the nature of worldly justice.

I can’t understand how protestants can believe the way they do.  They freak out at the word “purgatory” which in the final analysis is just a clumsy word to explain expiation.  How could a Mother Teresa and a death-bed-repentant- Mao,(not saying he did) both go straight to eternal beatitude?

Yeah. I got you Anna Lisa. I knew we agree for the most part. As you know, I have no faith in a God meting out justice in the end. I had a hard time thinking about someone like Hitler not facing eternal punishment but I finally had to face the fact that he just perished when he killed himself and that you can’t punish what doesn’t exist i.e. the soul.

Bill, the thing is, is we talked about this; I don’t believe in that God either.  I believe that when we die we see our soul as it really is, in the light of Truth.  God in his great mercy allows us to see (perhaps in slow degrees as we can bear it?) what harm and what good our actions have brought to “His body”—which is all of our brothers and sisters.  The sorrow we are thus able to feel for our victims will be purifying.
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Okay, I get that you say that this is all nonsense—(but honestly, I don’t get that vibe from you most of the time…)I had to laugh reading “Kris” from New England’s comment tp Jen Fulweiler’s latest, “God is Love” column.  Anyhow, I think J.F.‘s blog post is absolutely GREAT.  I didn’t come to Catholicism as an atheist but when I, a cradle Catholic came to those same conclusions, and moved toward self sacrificing love—I began to know God.
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Bill, I’m going to keep praying for you.

“I believe that when we die we see our soul as it really is, in the
light of Truth.”

Anna Lisa,
I know that we get along better than you do with Alice (or whatever her name is) but your beliefs and mine are very different. Your beliefs have led you to have a big happy family. I can’t say that mine have led me to a better life than yours.  But I have (recently) come to the same conclusion as Alice.  I look at the medical aspects of death and see a shutting down of everything including the brain and with that our whole being. I have no proof of this but it makes more sense to me than any other explanation.

I usually don’t write to clarify what I posted before, but in the story I wrote about Mrs. Neighbor who thought she was “done,” and then got pregnant with a “surprise” baby in her 40’s, the point was not that her son turned out so great, (even though he did) but that she had doubts, since she thought she was done.  In the human part of herself, she was afraid and unsure.  But as a good lady Catholic, talking to another good Catholic lady who was also in her 40’s (and just had her 6th child; my mom), the point was that even though you may not be sure how it will all go, you have to trust God.  We Catholics believe that even when it looks bad and the storm looks dark, we are not alone and should trust God.  That is a huge distinction from people who are not following Christ.  And the end of the story was to show that doing God’s will is the way to go.  Even when it appears to “the world” that the outcome is a tragic disaster, like the death and burial of Jesus, God’s plan is for our success.  Perhaps Mrs. Neighbor’s son turned out so great because his father welcomed him with great joy, and because Mrs. Neighbor accepted him as a gift, not a problem, and because he was so well loved once he arrived.  Whatever the case, Mrs. Neighbor accepted God’s will for her, and it turned out to be an excellent decision.  We as Catholics profess that is always true.  What happens to those not in God’s flock, I do not know.

“so many people have a false idea about God”
Hilarious.  You write as though there really was a “true” idea about a god.
“all of creation is governed by laws that we can believe in—or not.”
Hilarious.  Please “believe in” the Law of Gravity!  Forget about the Theory of Electromagnetism - James Clerk Maxwell was a passing fad.  And nobody accepts the Theory of Evolution!
“Truth is immutable—and also nearly unknowable”
Tell that to thousands of scientists and engineers!
“If there was this kind of homophobia, wouldn’t it follow that all of those homosexual predator priests would have been quickly and efficiently eliminated from the priesthood, and hauled to the nearest precinct?”
You should not write sentences like this one - I could hurt myself laughing.
“God *always* forgives when there is true repentance”
Hilarious.  True repentance and $5.95 will get you a cup of you know what at you know where.  But I have a feeling that the judge and jury in that real-life courtroom are not necessarily going to be so forgiving.  Perhaps you ought to learn about reality.

And perhaps you should learn about vocabulary (and redundancy).

Alice and Bill S: In my post about Mrs. Neighbor who thought she was “done,” and then got pregnant with a “surprise” baby in her 40’s, the point was not that her son turned out so great, (even though he did) but that she had doubts, since she thought she was done.  In the human part of herself, she was afraid and unsure.  But as a good lady Catholic, talking to another good Catholic lady who was also in her 40’s (and just had her 6th child; my mom), the point was that even though you may not be sure how it will all go, you have to trust God.  We Catholics believe that even when it looks bad and the storm looks dark, we are not alone and should trust God.  That is a huge distinction from people who are not following Christ.  And the end of the story was to show that doing God’s will is the way to go.  Even when it appears to “the world” that the outcome is a tragic disaster, like the death and burial of Jesus, God’s plan is for our success.  Perhaps Mrs. Neighbor’s son turned out so great because his father welcomed him with great joy, and because Mrs. Neighbor accepted him as a gift, not a problem, and because he was so well loved once he arrived.  Whatever the case, Mrs. Neighbor accepted God’s will for her, and it turned out to be an excellent decision.  We as Catholics profess that is always true.  What happens to those not in God’s flock, I do not know.

Somehow, I find the image of Earl rolling on the floor in uncontrollable laughter while reading posts on National Catholic Register blogs to be slightly disturbing.  I actually agree with most of what he says and I get a kick out of the responses back to him.

I find it disturbing that he has so little entertainment and meaning in his life, that trolling is how he chooses to spend his time.  It’s pathetic enough for a young person like Alice/Sandy/etc), but really sad that someone his age is still so immature.

“laughter while reading posts ... slightly disturbing”
Why?  These deluded people write such ridiculous statements that contradict reality.  They are quite funny.
“I find it disturbing that he has so little entertainment and meaning in his life”
Hilarious.  You know nothing about my life.
I notice that you do not even bother to try to contradict my opinions about reality.
“The “right to die” bill passed by a horrifying 95%.”
Very interesting.  Perhaps it’s time for us to consider that more seriously.  Perhaps silly religious objections can be overcome.

“Whatever the case, Mrs. Neighbor accepted God’s will for her, and it turned out to be an excellent decision. We as Catholics profess that is always true. What happens to those not in God’s flock, I do not know.”

Had this story not had such a happy ending, I doubt that it would have been used as proof that you can’t go wrong following “God’s Will”. So, all you have to do is accentuate the positive outcomes and ignore the negative and it turns people who trust their fate to lady luck into faithful followers. The same chances apply to people not in God’s flock. They just look at it as the result of people’s efforts and their own good fortune.

Earl, the fact that a man your age chooses to spend his time trolling tells me more than I want or need to know about your life.  It speaks volumes.

Lottie—
It’s like you’re telling me that when a storm is approaching, just stand there and get wet, and hope you don’t get struck by lightning.
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Many women choose to get their tubes tied with their last c-section because they’ve decided they are “done.” They don’t wait for an unexpected pregnancy and then decide what to do.
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“Mrs. Neighbor” decided to have her baby and she is happy now and he turned out great—but she made the decision AFTER she got pregnant. Her life would have been different, but not necessarily unhappy, if she chose contraception and avoided an unexpected pregnancy.

“we need to look upon God as the intimate participant in our lives”
You have no evidence for your opinion.
“proof of an amazing miracle”
Or the success of modern medicine.
“I have a couple more stories like that if you want to hear them.”
Anecdotes (I have a few myself) are worthless.

Well Earl, the things you say aren’t exactly worthwhile, but that doesn’t seem to bother you at all.

Bill S and Alice:  All people who decide to keep the commandments and follow God’s will appear to be fools in the eyes of unbelievers (the world). The world has no better answer to the challenges of life than to take matters into your own hands, try to control the outcome, and hopefully live a happy life because of it.  Anything else is passive idiocy.  Do I have that right?  If so, Jesus was some kind of nut, born into poverty, decided he was somebody special, took on the political powers of his region, and died a horrible death for it.  What a fool, right?  Yet it’s so funny, because 2000 years later we’re still talking about this nobody little man who was born in an obscure peasant village and lived as an itinerant preacher in an obscure part of the world who had a lot to say about how to live your life doing the will of God (a God you say doesn’t exist), even if the path is through desperate suffering.  There are lots of us who think that’s pretty remarkable, and perk up our ears to listen.
And the post about Mrs. Neighbor was for Christians reading here who are discerning the will of God for their families.  It was a word of encouragement to them.  For you nonbelievers who like to read and respond here, calling us fools, have your day.  But for you faithful who read here, a word of advice; be selective in what you take into your hearts.  Listen closely and only follow the voice of the Master, your Good Shepherd.

Lottie,

This is the best summary of our differences that I have ever read. The summary of the side that you say is wrong is accurate and better stated than I could do myself. So, you know our whole argument and you still maintain your faith. I bet if you had the time you could probably help me get my faith back. But I have too many questions and concerns about Catholicism to cover on a blog site.

“Jesus was some kind of nut”
Actually, there is almost no evidence that a single individual of that name existed.  Apparently there were many “preachers” prophesying that the “end of the world will occur while some of you are still living”.  Only later did the mythology come together to claim that there was a single individual.  It really is just a book of mythology.
“2000 years later we’re still talking”
There are religions older and younger than Christianity.  So what?  Every one of them is quite certain that theirs is the One True Religion.
“doing the will of God”
Who gets to decide exactly what the “will of a god” really means?  Sharia?  Why not?  Who decides?  A political question?!
“follow the voice of the Master”
You have no evidence that there is any such “voice”.

Earl, Lottie can determine for herself what the will of God is in her life.  It is not your concern, and there is no need for you to comment on it.  As far as evidence, your game-playing here is more than enough evidence of how low people can sink when they disregard God.

Lottie—I agree with Bill S—you gave a fair description of our differences. My problem with believers is that they never consider other options. You believe in following “God’s will” like stupid sheep and that it is “sin” to take responsibility for your own life.
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The Church has no right to forbid an infertile couple from trying invitro methods to conceive a child, and it has no right to tell a couple they are doing evil by practicing contraception. It has no right to make people take risks that aren’t necessary.

Well now there’s an intelligent, enlightened statement.  Looks like yet another thread that I might as well unsubscribe from, just in time to protect my inbox from being inundated by trolls this weekend.  I’ll stick with Simcha’s toll-free threads, where the dialogue is intelligent and productive.

“Lottie can determine for herself what the will of God is in her life.”
Hilarious.  Of course everyone is responsible for his own actions (assuming that we have “free will”).  But the point is that anyone claiming to do the “will of a god” could justify evil actions.
“when they disregard God”
Hilarious.  You have made the unsupported assumption that there really is a “god”.  How low can someone “sink” when they claim that they had to do it because it was “a god’s will”?
And who gets to define a “sin”?  Something that is against a god’s will?  Different sins for different religions?  Of course!  So everyone else is going to that non-existent warm place because their religion or lack thereof is different from yours?

“Lottie can determine for herself what the will of God is in her life.”
Of course.  So what?
“It is not your concern, and there is no need for you to comment on it.”
Well, can she vote?  Perhaps it is my concern that she will vote “incorrectly”.
“how low people can sink when they disregard God.”
Hilarious.
“Simcha’s toll-free threads”
You certainly wouldn’t want to hear opinions contrary to your own!

I’m not sure why this “hilarious” comment came into my inbox, when I unsubscribed from this thread the other day.  But I will leave you with this:  Lottie’s discernment of the will of God in her life, and your perceived need to comment on it, has nothing to do with how she casts her vote.  Even if it did, your commenting on it won’t affect that, except to make her want to run the other way and do the exact opposite of anything you advocate.  As far as troll-free threads, they contain plenty of opinions that are contrary to mine.  But the opinions come from intelligent people whose vocabulary contains a much greater variety than yours, and who have come here for a dialogue rather than to spread ignorance and hate.

“do the exact opposite of anything you advocate”
Typical religious response.
“whose vocabulary”
As you repeat your silliness for the tenth time.
“to spread ignorance”
That’s the problem with science and reality versus religion.  But only one of them can be characterized correctly as “ignorance”.
“and hate”
No, sorrow at your stubborn ignorance.

Well, here’s the daily dose of hypocrisy:  Earl accusing someone else of stubbornness, silliness and repetitiveness.