Yes this above and also My Essence is that of which seeking to control it (testing your lovers like products) only leads to your defeat. Great uncharted sea! Jump only at full Faith and completely. Men -if you are trying to fish a Siren you will be drowned. Women - if you try to be a Siren you will only get water in your eyes. Love is about limits and once you realize this then Love is without limits.

To pick probably the least significant of all these things: the wedding registry. I honestly feel a little insulted when I hear a couple who has been living together for years are registering. Particularly if they are already homeowners (if they are in an apartment and building a house or planning to purchase soon after marriage, I feel a little less so as there are things you need in a house that you don’t in apartment living). I got an invitation to a wedding a few years back where the bride and groom not only had been living together for close to 10 years, they had been homeowners for eight of those and had a three-year-old child. Not only did their registry include big ticket items they already owned, it contained things like bunk beds for their child (she had a baby shower, a very nice and well attended baby shower). It made their wedding seem like cashing in on their relationship to remodel their kitchen and redecorate their kids’ room. Apparently, I wasn’t the only one who felt that way, the parents of the bride were mortified and a couple of days after most of the guests had gotten their invites, several things disappeared off the registry (not purchased,  you can see that online). 

And I also have to add…you don’t test-drive your future spouse. Seriously. To put a relationship in a status where you make your potential future husband or wife the equivalent of a car (new or used) is never a good thing.

Adult conversions do indeed offer the opportunity to be immersed in two very different cultures. I have my “pre-Jesus” friends and ideas, and my “post-Jesus” friends and ideas. (And trust me, the post-Jesus life is MUCH better!)  It helps me empathize with those on the opposite side of the great moral and cultural debates of our time: abortion, relativism, church vs. state, etc. Having been a left-wing hedonist atheist, I understand they sincerely think their view of reality is correct. It helps when trying to witness to them.
Thanks for the interesting column, Jen.
“Be of good cheer!” (John 16:33)
www.MerryCatholic.com

You make some excellent points.  It’s far too easy to drift into marriage when you’re already splitting the groceries and electric bill. 
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However, I would be seriously concerned if any of our children went right from our home to sharing a home with a spouse.  Everyone needs to find their own ways.  It’s best to do that with roommates and/or living on one’s own.  I have seen too many marriages break up because while their families had very compatible lifestyles, the husband and wife were actually quite different but didn’t realize it until they were out on their own.
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I very rarely see brides walking up the aisle with just their dads anymore.  Either they go up with both their mom and dad (as I did nearly two decades ago) or they go up alone.    Don’t know if that’s particular to my demographic. 
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And don’t get me started on registries!  The whole concept seems so rude to me.  I make a concerted effort not to dwell on any of the circumstances surrounding them and just try to be grateful that I’ve got suggestions for a gift.

YES TO THE ARTICLE! YES!

And oh no Jen, you touched on the registry thing. Somewhere the wolves are howling “pretentious” because the whiff of something that doesn’t focus on them sends them into madnessssss…lol seriously, women are catty.

Husband and I did live together a few months before marriage due to serious circumstances (honestly, it doesn’t save money) but we didn’t do the sex part of living together like most people do.

Yes it was hard. No its not impossible. Yes we have tons of sex now that we are married.

I agree a lot with this article, having seen it in real life. Nobody from my family even marries anymore. Why marry when you will just divorce? Far better to have a live in boyfriend or girlfriend with tenous commitment.

One thing I found interesting is the dumping of “not marriage material”. Until I took on that attitude it was harder to find a compatible date much less a relationship. I kept trying to ask out guys that were interesting and friendly, but religiously incompatible, psychologically incompatible, and at times completely at odds with everything I believed in.

For one thing, the boy should be a man and ask the lady out. For another, why continue dating someone who might be nice but you could never see being the father of your children?

Once I dropped the post-Christian attitude of “open-mindedness” about boyfriends my dating life got a lot less complicated and a lot more enjoyable. The only serious boyfriend I ever had was my husband, because frankly the others made great platonic friends.

Wow. Marked as spam? Who did I offend to get that? Oh. Right. I forgot that complete sentences are frowned upon in the comboxes.

Wonderful post! An interesting perspective on the issue of living together before marriage. I have always known about the religious implications of marriage first before moving in together, this view on things is quite new to me tho. Very eye-opening!

We were just watching a tv show with a wedding on it last night, and as they kissed after their vows, I thought, man that’s sad they aren’t kissing with the anticipation of what’s to come on their honeymoon.  I mean, a honeymoon is a nice vacation, but when you’ve waited to have sex/live together, it become so much more!

I guess I’m just happy for folks who figure it out & do the right thing.Going through some of the wedding traditions/rituals may seem less authentic if you’ve been shacking up for several years but at least couples are falling back on a good thing rather than a bad.In this culture, it’s not always easy for young people to see the right path.God bless them when they do.

Not to bring this article too far off track, but registries were not part of the wedding experience for most folks in the NYC region until fairly recently.  I remember the first time I heard of a registry I was in college (probably the late 80’s) up in Massachusetts.  I called my mom to ask her what it was and she said, “Oh, I’m not sure.  I think that’s something rich people do for their fine china and silver.”    Back then the appropriate shower gift was Corningware or towels and the appropriate wedding gift was cash. 
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The appropriate wedding gift here (now I’m in Philly) is still cash, but these days folks register at Target and Walmart so it’s pretty clear they’re not looking for fine china and silver.    When you’re not raised with registries, it’s hard to overcome the ick factor of people telling you exactly what they want when you haven’t asked them.  But since I don’t get the whole registry thing on so many levels, I just pull up the registry, look for my price range, and click “buy.”  I try to banish all thoughts except how glad I am to be getting the happy couple exactly what they want (except occasionally on internet forums where I can’t help myself). ;)  And I have grudgingly come to accept that my own children will likely one day register for bridal and baby shower gifts.

You didn’t mention that studies show you have a greater chance of divorcing if you lived together before marriage.

I understand why you would not be sad to see bachelor/bachelorette parties go the way of the Dodo, but I would point out that what we now think of as the bachelor party is simply a corruption of something that in the past was not generally objectionable.

My general understanding was that originally the bachelor party as we know it got started as an opportunity for the father of the groom and the male friends and relatives of the groom to get together to toast the health of the bride and the couple.  Perhaps too much drink might have been consumed on occasion, but the excesses and sins that later became expected were not suppose to be part of the party. 

Eileen,
I never heard of bridal registries either til recently.My daughter’s best friend set her’s up at Bed, Bath & Beyond. I actually appreciated knowing what was needed instead of buying something random.The young couple’s choices were very modest & it made sense to me.
For cash money, we pin $$ on the bride’s veil at the reception.Each person who dances with her pins money to her veil.It adds up.
:)

@susie - Recent studies don’t support that conclusion.  Folks who lived together in earlier studies were the rebels of society.  Not anymore - society is way too broken.  Recent studies show that women who’ve only cohabited with the man they intend to marry actually have a lower divorce rate than those who didn’t cohabit before marriage.  That has certainly been my observation among my peers and my nieces and nephews.  HOwever, I don’t believe cohabiting while enganged affected marriages for the positive.  I believe it is the young age at marriage for the folks who never cohabited (even in engagement) that led to their unhappiness in marriage. 
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I’m not sure why age at marriage has become such a sticking point for me.  I suspect it’s not only that I see so much evidence all around me that people who marry young end up struggling so much in marriage and they so often divorce.  I think it’s mainly that my oldest child is now 16 and I don’t want her to be even thinking about marriage for a dozen years or so.  I’m beginning to think with all my harping on the evils of marrying too young I’m virtually ensuring myself that half my kids’ll be swept off their feet by the time their 20. ;)

Here’s another sad thing that I’ve witnessed about my friends who cohabitated, often for years, before marrying: they’ve all said that the wedding doesn’t change anything, it’s nothing more than a big, (very) expensive party.  They have a party, go on a trip, come back to home and then everything goes back to “normal.”  Nothing changes for them.  They don’t even realize what they’re…realizing, I guess.

It’s actually correct in a Catholic wedding for the bride and groom to walk down the aisle together because they are giving themselves freely to one another in the sacrament of marriage (and in fact, they themselves are performing the sacrament which is why a deacon can preside).

The other day while watching a “home-buying” show, I heard a young woman on the program say rather apologetically, “A lot of people think I’m crazy for marrying someone I haven’t lived with first, but…”  Yeah, it’s gotten to that point.  People are feeling shame for NOT cohabitating!

Atheist enjoy one of the lower divorce rates in the U.S..  I have been married 20 years and lived with my wife for 5 years before we married.

Great article!
I currently have a family member co-habitating (and recently engaged).

While I love him, I was incredibly disappointed with this decision to live together beforehand. I grappled with this, but I didn’t feel the need to travel to attend the engagement party, the bridal shower, etc. They have already set up a full household and life together and I feel like these parties and registries are just superfluous.  They often travel together too, so how would a honeymoon be any different than their previous getaways?  It just feels so different from celebrating other family members/friends who have waited long to be together and how exciting it is when they finally are. (and how exciting it is for them to set up their first home together and help them to do so)

We’ll give them a wedding gift and pray their marriage is the right decision.

Yeah, when we got engaged 6 years ago the questions would always be “When is the wedding?” followed by “Are you living together?” More people than not thought I was stupid for not living with my fiance and I even had a doctor sy all kinds of mean comments about the fact that I was a virgin. Meh, things worked out.

@Eileen, many times people who are married young and struggle together stay together simply because going through the struggles have brought them closer together. I think there is a HUGE difference between young in age and immature (from what I’ve seen that can go on indefinitely). I was married at 21 (living with my parents) and 5 years later we are doing great despite everyone complaining that I was getting married “too young.” Many people I have met in recent years were married when they were 18, 19, 20…and several years (and kids) later they are doing fine. I’m guessing this has more to do with understanding the gravity of the marriage covenant and not just getting married to have a big party or because everyone else is doing it.

@Mr. Patton, married couples using natural family planning have a divorce rate of approx 2%. Not too shabby either :)

I have been married for nearly 27 years, we did not cohabit before marriage and I am a faithful Catholic.  So, tell me why atheism is true, not why it seems to have no effect on your married life. 
Also, Eileen, check the stats, the longer you wait to have children, the more problems with conceiving children and potential birth defects. 
The reason why younger people do not marry is primarily due to feminism.  Young women feel pressure from society, parents and schools to get into the workforce, thereby delaying marriage and childbirth.  Young men fail to find employment for many reasons including the plethora of women in the workplace.  And even Catholics reading this column are regularly practicing birth control and limiting their family sizes for purely economic reasons.  My view is not popular, even among those in Catholic circles, but so be it.  The truth needs to be told.

I completely agree with this.  I find myself needing to speak out more and more clearly to my older children.  Fornication has become so mainstream in both secular and conservative Catholic schools.  They have also seen their relatives on my husband’s side of the family blatantly living together, or on my side of the family, where this is frowned upon; sneaking around to fornicate.  My kids are trying to live virtuous lives, but temptations abound, and I find that they are voicing objections that such high ideals might be impossible to pull off.  My daughter bluntly asked me, “How can you last until your mid twenties, until you have finished your degree?” 
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I feel so sorry for them.  It IS true that having a close boyfriend or girlfriend, and seeing a ten year road stretched out before you, before that love can be consummated seems cruel.
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This is how I answered my nineteen year old daughter, who was obviously getting very serious with her boyfriend:
“Marriage is not like the courtship stage.  If you choose to have sex before marriage, you are excluding the most important element of beautiful, fulfilling, erotic love:  God.  If you are ‘going for it’ alone, the thrill of the illicit is going to eventually run out of gas.  You CAN’T separate God out of fantastic sex.  You will run aground.  Birth control denies God, and the true meaning of unitive love.  Once you shut the door to God, you *can’t make love*.  “Picture this”, I said, “so you eventually get married, and you’ve just had a baby.  Your you-know-what feels like ground beef.”  (Sorry, but I was frank)
“Ew!” She protested.
“Yeah. Your hormones have fallen through the floor, you haven’t slept or showered, and your breasts are raw.  Are you going to be in the mood for ‘hot sex’?  No.  But if your relationship had been predicated upon tender, mutual, self giving, and self sacrifice, it won’t be long before you want to make love…So what becomes of the kind of physical ‘love’ that is rooted in the base instinct?”
She stared at me.
“His hand and a bit of porn will fill the gap.”
She groaned, but she knows a lot of secular guys who don’t spare details.
“Don’t think for a moment that if you began your sexual relationship with a ‘do not enter’ sign to God, that it will withstand the test of time.”
Sorry if I offended anyone, but we can’t afford not to be frank with ourselves or our older teens anymore.
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This was REALLY hard to write, and I’m sure it’s going to the spam filter first.

@Andi, I have no doubt that NFP would have a very low divorce rate.  The reason I married was to have children in a more secured social standing, so it makes perfect sense.

Nice article, Jennifer.

A pithy summation for the girl:  Set the bar high BEFORE marriage and low AFTER marriage - not the other way around!

I have been ever-flummoxed by a woman’s decision to co-habitate prior to marriage.  Serious doses of self-esteem need to be reintroduced to our young women.  You bet, I’m worth the wait!  Buster, if you want what a wife offers, then get serious, responsible and let’s make a grown-up decision together.  “Playing house” can easily lead to spiritual damage of the man, the woman and their children (born or not)and society at large.

Mrs. Worried
“This was REALLY hard to write, and I’m sure it’s going to the spam filter first.”
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It got through the spam filter but obviously the troll filter needs tweaking.

Posted by Mr. Patton on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 2:17 PM (EDT):

@Andi, I have no doubt that NFP would have a very low divorce rate.  The reason I married was to have children in a more secured social standing, so it makes perfect sense.”
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Good for you & congratulations on your long & happy marriage.
:)

Kathleen, This is not troll material.  Being prim about this is akin to putting one’s head in the sand like an ostrich.  A reliable priest on EWTN said that fifty percent of regular churchgoing men are addicted to pornography.  Another reliable priest told me that he is fighting a terrible battle with this scourge in the confessional.  Marriages are being ruined.  If a young man or woman start their relationship by not practicing chastity…YOU fill in the blank.  I’d rather be practical and take the bull by the horns.  SPELL IT OUT.

People’s responses on this thread are making me sad.  I love to celebrate the marriages of my nieces and nephews regardless of whether or not they’ve cohabited. 
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@Tim - there are worse things than being old.  I love my all my children - biological, adopted, “perfect”, and imperfect.  My son in heaven had Down Syndrome so I’m well aware of what can happen when we conceive later in life.  I’m also the mother of adopted children so while I don’t think infertility is the worst thing in the world, I do think a bad marriage comes about as close to true misery as humanly possible.     
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Andi, I sincerely hope all those friends of yours married at 18, 19, and 20 are still doing well when their children are in middle school (a highly stressful time for many marriages).  If so, they’ll be beating the statistics - but I agree with you that individuals are so much more than a number and of course young people can marry and have long, happy marriages.  What I have seen time and again with couples who’ve married young is one day the wife (and it’s almost always the wife) decides she never really loved him.  My sister in law, married at 21, left my brother in law.  22 years and 8 children later, it she told him she never really loved him.  But when I talked to her to try to make sense of the whole thing, it boils down to she didn’t know who she was or what she wanted at that tender age. 
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Unfortunately, the atheist Mr. Patton makes a good point.  I’ll say religion doesn’t appear statistically to have nearly as much to do with making a marriage successful as age and education at the time of marriage.  It is in fact the godless blue areas of our country (except for Nevada) that have with the lowest divorce rates.  Of course, we Catholics know that God’s grace makes married love even more beautiful.  The atheists don’t know what they’re missing.  ;)

Mrs. Worried, the only thing I would add to your daughter is that you don’t necessarily have to wait until your mid twenties. I think the pressure to have all (or many) of your financial prosperity boxes checked before marriage is part of what makes the wait so long and seem so difficult.

That long wait for consummation is another reason to avoid dating in high school entirely.

Trials don’t work.  I know too marriages that have dissolved after 20- even 50 yrs!! 
REAL LOVE WORKS.

This is a comment on a side note.  My BW and I were dating for several years before we married - I had a contract with the USN to remain unmarried until I finished undergraduate work and was commissioned as an ensign, USNR.
Both my BW to be and I were much concerned about the need to avoid mortal sin (you can tell we were pre Vat. II). The summer before my last college year, the two of us were playing bridge against her parents, and I proposed to her across the bridge table!  She said “Yes!”, but the boldness of that totally flummoxed by future MIL, who messed up the few later bridge hands that she played.  No such effect on my future FIL, who seemed quite satisfied with the whole prospect.
In retrospect, both my parents and hers were quite grateful that we waited until AFTER exchanging vows to explore each other’s bodies.
TeaPot562.
(married 57 years and counting, parents of 5, G-parents of 12, and with 3 G-G-children. Our oldest son, now 25 years since ordination, presided at our Fiftieth anniversary, which was a grand party.)

Mrs. Worried,
I apologize.I see a fair number of posts on Catholic sites that read like your’s.
I think 50% addiction to porn among Catholic men is a low estimate.

Research demonstrates that first marriages have the highest statistical probability of success. Second marriages have a significantly lower probability of success. Third and forth marriages have the lowest (close to zero) probability of success. Living together, whether a couple wants to admit it or not, involves all that marriage involves but lacks actual commitment. With the modern practice of living together, by the time many couples are getting married for the “first time” their marriages are more accurately described as second, third, forth or fifth marriages and have just about the same probability of success as those types of marriages.

Teapot, that is beautiful. 
I have a deeply fulfilling marriage.  I married a man that I love more than my own life.  He is attentive and very spiritual.  I trace the problems that we had in our marriage with poor Catholic formation, and not “waiting” before marriage.  As one of the posters above stated, we confer the sacrament of marriage upon each other.  I was one of those people who asserted that I didn’t need a piece of paper to love the love of my life.  Unfortunately, birth control is needed for such a secret arrangement.  I wish I had understood Catholic theology better, rather than hearing about sex from magazines ,my sexually active college room mates, my best friend and the thin walls at my future husband’s house.  My mother never said a single word to me about sex, except for a few veiled threats about being a virgin when I married.  One of my sisters used to pilfer her stashed birth control.  She quietly slipped small bags of birth control into her daughters’ hands on the wedding night.  I think she understands her error now, but how can I be sure if she never says a word about it? That generation thought that sex and secrets could be kept in ivory towers.
The beauty of God is that He pursues us like the Lover He is.  He wants us to share in the beauty of His full Life.  So even though my own parents failed me in this regard, grace pursued us lovingly, until we both allowed ourselves to be caught.  I wish it had been at the same time, but that doesn’t matter anymore, because we have the most incredible marriage.  Our love couldn’t be more intense, and unbelievably it keeps on getting better with the years.

@Kathleen, no offense taken.  I hope you aren’t correct about that number being higher than 50%, but you very well could be.  In the group that doesn’t go to church each Sunday I would imagine there are even fewer reservations about pornography.  Studies show that it is more addictive than crack.  I don’t know about where you live, but here the confession lines are short.  At the parish closest to my home confession is a half hour, and doesn’t get much business.

I plan to discourage dating when my son is a teenager.  My husband and I feel that the purpose of dating is to discern marriage, and since I highly doubt my son will be ready for marriage when he’s a teenager, I don’t think getting into a serious relationship would be a good idea.  I would prefer that he socialize with members of the opposite sex in larger groups.

I think this is baloney. You don’t know anyone until you’ve lived with them. Not living with my ex-husband before we got married is the biggest mistake of my life.  I am now engaged again and you better believe we will be living together before marrying. I’m going for the long engagement. Personally, I don’t think your article says much if anything.

Number 5 seems to be one of the most serious problems with cohabitation:  if your long-term goal is marriage to someone you love head-over-heels (and I’d venture to say that this is what most people are after), how does a long cohabitation move you closer to that goal?  I’m not saying that people don’t fall in love and move in together for a while with the mutual understanding that a wedding is in the offing, but I see so many young people moving in with their college boyfriends/girlfriends and getting stuck in a rut.  Someone falls obviously out of love, or wavers and starts hanging out all the time with another guy/girl, but they aren’t brave enough to break up.  The couple doesn’t want to let go of that cozy blanket of sex and snuggles and familiar routines, but they don’t feel ready for marriage, either.  This can go on for years.

I don’t think the solution is just “get married as soon as you can” - obviously you don’t want kids thoughtlessly throwing in their lot with whoever makes them feel good.  The best mindset is a brisk, brave conviction that if you don’t love someone enough to marry them after a year of dating, you should set them free.  Lingering for years with someone you wouldn’t like to have kids with is not fair to them or you.

Big mistake again, CC.

Thanks for writing about this!

Another point I once heard, and agree with: those who engage in pre-marital sex (regardless of living together or not) are inherently communicating that they believe it is okay to have sex with someone they aren’t married to…  They would also, presumably, be okay with engaging in contraceptive sex… And both of these conditions are generally what occurs with infidelity.  Just something to ponder.

good article; someone should advise young adults that it is to their advantage to live apart until married

How about another reason?  Entanglements you cannot easily undo if you change your mind.  I know a young woman who moved in with her boyfriend at 20. Everyone, including both families, thought they would get married because they were so right for each other.  But things didn’t work out, and she moved out at 23.  When she was 26 she met a great guy who asked her to marry him, and she did.  A year later she got a letter from a lawyer that she owed some $5000 in back rent and damages on the apartment she had shared with boyfriend #1.  Her name had never been removed from the lease, and he had guy friends move in, and they eventually stopped paying the rent and there was quite a bit of damage to the apartment.  She also found out when she went to change her name on her drivers license she had a warrant out for her arrest because she was on the title of a car they bought together that she had left with him, and that car had been in a serious accident without insurance.  She had to get a lawyer to resolve these issues, and her new husband was VERY ANGRY that this past boyfriend was affecting their life.  I can’t even imagine the complications if you buy a home together, or worse, have a kid.  It seems to me you shouldn’t get into these kinds of entanglements without the protections of a marriage contract.

My friend sent this to me yesterday because she’s concerned about me planning to cohabitate. I find it odd that premarital sex is not mentioned. Isn’t that the real issue?  It’s absurd to say people who’ve lived together should not have bachelor/bachelorette parties, but people who have maintained separate home (and still had premarital sex) should feel free to celebrate. Or, maybe I am mistaken and all of your new “religious” friends were virgins when they made their vows.

“But now that I’ve seen so many examples of it being done both ways, I’m convinced that the sacrifices are well worth it when you wait to set up a home until after the wedding.” - Haha, what about waiting for SEX until after the wedding? Or is setting up home just the issue because it cannot be done in private?

Bonnie,
It’s true that occasionally old lease agreements will come back to haunt you, but that can apply when you rent an apt. with any roomate-male or female.Married couples who break a lease, owe back rent or damage property are held equally responisible.I used to work in property management & had to deal with those issues daily.Laws can vary from state to state.
But you’re right in that one has to be very careful & prudent when signing any legal contract with another individual.Unfortunately,that can apply to spouses, too.

A friend from France (very secular) put it best when we were college students.
“I may spend most of my time with my boyfriend but I will never live with him. That way, if he turns out to be a beast, poof, he is gone and I am free.”
Another good reason to avoid it is the financial havoc it brings to young people.

“Maggie”: yes, premarital sex is an issue.  permarital sex while living apart has its own ramifications for marriage.  But people who live apart are still living somewhat as bachelors or bachelorettes, even if they are having sex.  People who are cohabitating really aren’t living the single lifestyle, which is probably why Jennifer finds it ironic for them to have bachelor/bachelorette parties.

Well said, Bonnie.  Even when I was away from the Church, I never would have considered cohabitation outside of marriage.  For one thing, my attitude always was “if you love someone enough to live with him, why not get married?”  For another thing, I never wanted to take on the daunting task of merging households without the commitment of marriage.

I didn’t read all of the comments, so maybe someone already mentioned this, but I’d just like to add under your “#3”—the tradition of wearing a white dress. When I wore my white dress, it meant what it stood for. White is for virginity as the bride goes to meet her husband. They shouldn’t be wearing white anymore to weddings.

Maggie,
Just curious, how do you feel about cohabitation? If you’re taking the time to comment here maybe there’s some conflict going on?
As a mom, I hope you make the right choice.Be careful.
God bless you!

Maggie: yeah, waiting for sex is important too.  And living together makes that practically impossible, of course… while adding another layer of confusion and inertia that even sexually active couples living separately don’t have.  Keeping house and breaking bread together, sharing a bed - you’re enjoying some of the nice THINGS about marriage while being very casual about the two PEOPLE in the relationship.  Unless you both have philosophical objections to marriage in general, you’re basically saying “I enjoy having someone to help cook and do the dishes, to keep me warm at night and share fun times and provide pleasant society.  But the jury is still out on whether I’m crazy enough to stand up in front of my family and friends and promise to love and cherish you for the rest of our lives.”.  Its kind of sad when people put up with open-ended living together, especially when one of them really would like to be married, but their partner is happy with the status quo. 

Guys throw their socks on the floor; it’s not a big secret that requires a trial marriage to see how you will react.  That’s my two cents.  :)

I just loved this. Thanks!

Eileen:
I married at 21.  My father gave me away. We’ve been married now for 25 wonderful years, and our Catholic faith has always been our anchor.  I know that “anecdote” is not the singular of “data,” but I just wanted to let you know that age is only part of the equation.

People think marrying at 21 is marrying young?  Wow.  Down through the ages it’s been far more typical to marry as a teenager. Do some genealogical research and you probably don’t have to go back very many generations to find a great grandmother of yours who was less than 18 when she married (and who never divorced!).

Anybody who’s moved in with a friend and had the situation go south can tell you that you don’t really know somebody until you live with them. How many divorces happen because somebody truly discovers who their spouse is, and can’t go on any longer. Now there are kids involved. They spend their lives wondering why their parents split up, not understanding what marriage and love is all about. Maybe that divorce could have been prevented if the parents had just spent a little time REALLY getting to know one another, good and bad, before they made a commitment that would hurt a lot of people in the end.

Except that people who cohabitate before marriage have a statistically higher rate of divorce.

Kathleen: So true that renting an apartment or buying a car with anybody can put you in the same situation.  But I would guess you probably do more to protect your own interests if you are just going into a contract with a roommate than you might with a romantic interest.  It seems with a romantic interest there may be an attempt to show “good faith” that clouds the judgement.  I guess you should always think about what you will do if the relationship doesn’t work out and go from there. 
As an aside, my brother moved in with his future wife after they got engaged and paid off her student and car loans before they were married.  I wonder, if they had changed their minds, would he have felt this was a “loan” or would she have seen it as a “gift?”  But besides that, after the wedding my brother confided in me that he was sorry they had moved in together before they married, because it ruined the joy he would have felt in anticipation of the wedding night, the honeymoon, and beginning their life under one roof.  He said he felt “stupid” packing a bag and staying with the best man the night before the wedding so that she could have her bridesmaids spend the night and help her dress the next day, and he could only see her at the church.  I felt bad for him.  I had no idea he was so sentimental.

Wrong, Claire:
http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2012/0322/Cohabitation-before-marriage-It-s-no-greater-divorce-risk
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Why don’t you go back to arranging marriages between families instead of using love for the basis of marriage. After all, if the wife can’t have children, they can always use a concubine as a surrogate.

I should go back to arranging marriages?  I never arranged marriages, nor pushed for the practice.  This is a Catholic website.  Catholics believe in marital love, not concubines.  Not to mention the fact that your ridiculous statement has nothing to do with this article.  Don’t expect to be taken seriously when you make huge jumps like that GLORIA.

As one who was married twice, I could give you five secular reasons not to live together AT ALL.

One part of cohabitation that can lead to future resentment is that there will certainly be less sex after marriage than before.

If two young people, without children, before they’ve moved up the corporate ladder and working 60 hours a week, before they just start growing old, if two such people become sexually active (especially if they always have a place to do it) the amount and intensity of sex will peak very quickly.  It is all downhill from there, that is just life.  The issue is that if pre-marital sex is not endulged in, sex peaks or reaches a plateu after the marriage, i.e., marriage -> sex -> wow.  Otherwise the sex just keeps slipping after the wedding.  For a lot of guys in the second case, their thought is:  “I had all this sex when I was single, now that I’m married where did it go?”  Even if things like kids and careers and aging are the reasons for less sex, guys can be very upset with the idea that their girl friends were all about sex, then once they were married they couldn’t find the time for it.  Bait and switch.  So why wonder why the new husbands start looking for single women?

Regarding the divorce stats tossed around, they need to match up groups on age and socio-economic factors to be meaningful.  A shotgun wedding of two 18 year olds in a hardscrabble town can’t be compared to two middle aged college professors who’ve lived together for a couple of years.

Kelley Dupuis,
Very true, but I think-also from experience-there are as many or more reasons to share your life with someone as to live alone.There’s something to be said for both lifestyles.Most of us, even happily married, will eventually experience living alone.Life’s uncertain & we all have an expiration date.

@Jacob, you are terribly right and terribly wrong.  Sex which doesn’t invite God in sputters and becomes anti climactic.  What would happen if I attempted to make a rich chicken broth, but had no chicken?
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I had a lot of sex with my future husband before we married at an altar before God and our families.  The sex was fine, some might even say pretty good.  My friend who lives in a sexless marriage was envious, but I always felt like something was really missing.  If I was tired, sick or had had a lousy day, I’d have to be convinced to get in the mood.  I used to even pray about it.  I knew that at times it tested my generosity, and I came up lacking.  I prayed and I prayed.  On difficult days, I just threw up my hands and accepted that this was the way of marriage; that it starts hot and mellows down to a predictable pulse.  Men will be men and women will be women, right?
No! Stereotypes are for the unconverted.
I’ll just cut to the chase and say that our lives were tested sorely.  It would take a whole book to describe what happened, but the most important feature of this painful turning upside down of our lives, was ...an answer to prayer.  I didn’t think we could be MORE converted before!  But we were.  Profoundly.  How did this affect our intimate life together?  Profoundly.  There was absolutely no barrier between us any longer.  Physical love suddenly became such a solution to all of life’s problems, that I can’t even put it into words.
Life NEVER stops becoming difficult, but suddenly, intimate love became the beautiful medicine from God, for ALL of life’s problems.
I have a big family. Yes, this invites more “problems”.
I often partake of this medicine every morning and every night. I couldn’t tell you this on the street or in the pew next to me,but hey, that’s what the honesty of a com box can do.
Just thinking about the medicine in the middle of the day makes my pulse quicken.  I have to be careful to prayerfully keep it in its proper place and not allow it to be an addiction; that would spoil things.
God never gives up on anyone.  He certainly doesn’t reserve his best gifts for the fornicators. He gives gifts beyond our imagination if we do our part, and let Him lavish them upon our physical, Trinitarian love.

Paul, if you read the article accurately, it does not support your contention. Note that those who had similar survival rates as never-live-together-before marriage-group, (15 years) were in the engaged-live-together group. There still are all those couples who lived together who never got engaged; probably the majority of live-together-couples fit this category. Clair is correct. You are wrong.

A psychologist,
One of my children worked in the Family Life Office for our diocese & has told me the same things your post cites.
I guess the only thing I might add is that when I used to work in property management virtually every unmarried couple applying for a lease referred to their roommate as their “fiancee.“In all the years I worked there, there were never any wedding dates set that I was aware of. Perhaps in the South, “fiancee” has a more respectable sound than live-in boyfriend, but the terms seemed to be interchangeable.

A psychologist is right, the biggest part of the problem is moving in before the engagement more than moving in before the wedding. Engaged couples—with a definite date—have made the decision to commit for life before moving in together.

In the past, when marriage customs were different, the Church had no problem with engaged couples moving in together. If they had sex, this just meant they couldn’t call off the wedding.

Moving in without a commitment puts couples into the “twilight zone” between just roommates and practically married.

James, thanks for your comment, but just to clarify, I did not intend to support moving in after the proposal and before the marriage. I was merely pointing out that Paul arrived at the wrong conclusions about the the study he referenced. If all unmarried, cohabitating couples are taken into account, the divorce rate, after marriage is higher. The CDC study hides that fact by selecting engaged couples.

I dislike the “test drive” metaphors too—cars don’t have feelings.
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RMMT has an excellent point: the things we practice become habits, including fidelity.
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B, honestly, I suspect the problem is more that people simply avoid talking about what’s really important until it is too late, they think it’s no big deal or they’ll set right about changing the spouse once they’re married, or they’re in La-La Land not paying attention to red flags (why does Dear Abby keep having to re-post that list?  Because things don’t change enough).  I personally know one instance of someone doing a complete 180 after marriage, but I doubt that is the norm.  How many times have you heard someone say with chagrin, “The signs were there”?  Or when the beau is disliked by friends and family and they chalk it up to jealousy or something instead of listening?
Being stuck, when the spouse is not perfect but still pretty decent (as are most of us), is a positive. 
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Tim, some of us old maids have simply not found that wonderful mature, independent Catholic gentleman yet.  Where is he?  What is he waiting for?  I’m no militant feminista, but I’m also not going to marry just anyone for the sake of doing it.  In the meantime, I need to eat, and my parents have enough to worry about without me in the house and dependent too.

Tim, is there any good reason why men can’t beat us to the employment punch by preparing to get there earlier?  Must they choose to languish in extended childhood the way some do?  And are there not still jobs that most women aren’t keen on doing?  I think what you say is partially true, but a bit weak.
Some of us old maids have simply not found that wonderful mature, independent Catholic gentleman yet.  Where is he?  What is he waiting for?  I’m no militant feminista, but I’m also not going to marry just anyone for the sake of doing it.  In the meantime, I need to eat, and my parents have enough to worry about without me in the house and dependent.

Claire—that was a lame reply to Paul. You went to his level by taking him seriously. Both of you should grow up.

Sandy:  Paul is actually a troll named Gloria, who I recognized the minute I saw the statement about using concubines for surrogates, an accusation that Gloria has made in the past.  When she trolls under other names, not owning up to who she is, my policy is to call her on it.  If you don’t like it, maybe you could grow up rather than sinking to my level in your manner of criticism.  But honestly, from where I’m looking, you’re not looking very mature or superior.

A psychologist: I didn’t think you were. I merely wanted to point out that there is a big difference between moving in while engaged with a date and moving in without a commitment.

5 secular reasons not to live together before marriage is 2.5 secular reasons not to live together before engagement. (#1 and #2 do not apply, #5 only somewhat.)

Sandy:  now I see that you’re the same person who wrote the ignorant comment on Simcha’s abortion thread, implying that any doctor would perform an abortion for the right price.  Again, it’s ironic that you think I need to grow up.  The more comments from you I read, the clearer it is that you yourself have quite a bit of growing up to do.

Claire—I made my reply on Simcha’s site. Look it up.
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OK—I didn’t know “Paul” was a troll, but I think you went beneath dignity to reply to “him”—especially if you knew he was a troll. They are best ignored.
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As I wrote, destroying PP will not stop abortions or motivation for abortions—which is the real thing you should aim for. Women get abortions for the common reason that they cannot see a future for themselves with a child to support. (There is also medical necessity in some cases, but I will not address them in this conversation.)
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I heard a saying once: Never tell a person “Don’t do that!” because people tend to ignore the “Don’t” and pay attention to the “...do that!” Tell people not to sin, and they will immediately start learning what “sin” is.
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If you want to prevent abortions, stop telling people to stop having them and start helping women learn they can live well when they have children—expected or not.

Sandy:  I don’t need to look it up.  Your reply came into my email inbox.  As I said, when a known troll comes to these threads repeatedly under different names, pretending to be different people, my policy is to call them on it.  If you think that is beneath dignity, oh well.  I don’t particularly care for your tone, and I suspect that you and I probably define dignity differently.  Women have abortions for all kinds of reasons, and it is not always the case that the woman can’t afford to support the baby.  I financially support crisis pregnancy centers and other pro life ministries that help women with unwanted pregnancies.  I also adopted a “hard-to-place” child.  That is one portion of pro-life work.  Another component is working to change the laws, and a third component is working to defund the largest abortion provider in the nation.

OK, Claire. We handle trolls differently. No need for a hissey-fit. You win.
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” Women have abortions for all kinds of reasons, and it is not always the case that the woman can’t afford to support the baby.  I financially support crisis pregnancy centers and other pro life ministries that help women with unwanted pregnancies.  I also adopted a “hard-to-place” child.  That is one portion of pro-life work.  Another component is working to change the laws, and a third component is working to defund the largest abortion provider in the nation.”
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Why do you think I’m attacking you personally? Brava! You do good Christian deeds where you can and you “save” many “unwanted” children.
Might I remind you that you are only one woman? There are millions out there who don’t have your connections. There are many Catholics who don’t adopt “hard-to-place” children or any other orphan that needs a family. Everyone can’t be the saint you obviously believe yourself to be. There are more “hard-to-place” children than people as lucky to be generous as you are can adopt.
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Furthermore, Catholic “Charities” is refusing to allow same-sex partners adopt children, and have closed their adoption services because of their prejudice.
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By the way, Planned Parenthood is the only “known” abortion provider and therefore an easy target for pro-life zealots. Other medical organizations perform abortions and keep under pro-life radar if they can. Statistics reported to the government are not only from Planned Parenthood.
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You write as though your arrogance is a virtue. You are not the center of the universe.

They block my comment to inspect for spam. That seems to happen a lot around here for both “good” and “trolls.” Is the subject matter not clean enough for a conservative Catholic site?
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Anyway, if this gets through.
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Claire, you are only one person and everyone cannot be like you. Your arrogance is not a virtue—try walking in the shoes of someone who cannot afford to be so generous.

Comments get marked as spam all the time, most frequently for length, but also randomly.  It has nothing to do with whether the comment is Catholic enough.  It is comical that you are calling me arrogant.  Your first comment to me was to tell me that my comment was lame.  You then went on to say that I went beneath dignity (I’m still not sure exactly what that means).  It seems to me that your comments reveal just how arrogant you are, yet you are using that adjective to describe me.  Ironic.  As far as affording to be generous, my husband and I live on a very humble income.  But we feel that it is our responsibility to do what we can financially and otherwise to help others, which is why we donate to charities that support women facing unwanted pregnancies, among other things.  It never would have occurred to me that such a practice would be seen as arrogant or material for critism, but you clearly have your own code of ethics.

And by the way, I never said or implied that everyone could or should be like me.  If you’re going to criticize me, it would help if you elaborated on exactly what it is that you’re criticizing, or how you came to conclusions such as my supposed desire for everyone to be like me.

Claire—I told you my last comment was being check for spam. I’ll try again.
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“I financially support crisis pregnancy centers and other pro life ministries that help women with unwanted pregnancies.  I also adopted a “hard-to-place” child.  That is one portion of pro-life work.  Another component is working to change the laws, and a third component is working to defund the largest abortion provider in the nation.”
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It seems to me that, with the above statements, you are holding yourself up as a model for all women. In my “spammed” comment (which may yet be posted) I congratulated you for your accomplishments. But everyone can’t be as “good” a person as you are or in the same way you are and you have no right judge them against the standards you set for yourself.

Are you kidding me?  I’m not holding myself up as a model for all women!  I don’t expect everyone to be in a position to adopt a hard-to-place baby, or to contribute to the same components of pro-life work that I do!  That’s why I was giving example of components, to point out that there are several different ways to contribute.  I wasn’t judging anyone!  My main reason for sharing the ways that I contribute to the pro-life movement was as a response to your comment about helping women live well with unwanted children.  I was pointing out that I do the very thing you were telling me to do, and your response to that is that I’m trying to judge other women and hold myself up as a model.  Unbelievable.

And yes, with every one of your comments you implicate who you approve of and who you don’t like. I guess I’m in the latter category.
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Make somebody happy and mind your own business.

” I was pointing out that I do the very thing you were telling me to do, and your response to that is that I’m trying to judge other women and hold myself up as a model.”
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You are good at twisting statements. I never told you to do anything except to stop using yourself as an example of Catholic virtue and look to the real reasons women get abortions. Destroying Planned Parenthood or killing Roe V Wade won’t change anything except to put abortions in the back alley and the black market.
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You actually might do some good in the world if you weren’t so satisfied with yourself.

Where the heck did that come from?  Your communication skills leave a lot to be desired.  How exactly does someone implicate who they approve of?  Implication and approval are practically opposites.  Newsflash:  when your first comment to someone is to tell them that they’re lame and need to grow up, it’s not too surprising that they don’t exactly like you.  And it’s also not exactly a model of “minding your own business”.  You’re accusing me of holding others to my standards (which is untrue), and then you go and hold me to standards that are higher than the ones you hold to yourself.  I’ll tell you what.  If you can mind your own business as you expect me to, I’ll do you the same favor.  How’s that for a deal?

“If you want to prevent abortions, stop telling people to stop having them and start helping women learn they can live well when they have children—expected or not.”  These are your words.  I didn’t twist anything.  You told me to help women.  I told you that I do help women.  That is not a twist of a statement.  You have no idea how much or how little good I’ve done in the world, or my level of satisfaction with myself.  I would say that my sweet little boy is pretty glad that I’m mothering him.  (Although I freely admit that whatever good I’ve done for him, he’s given back to me ten-fold.)

I was gonna leave that alone, but please explain: how is ” Implication and approval are practically opposites?”
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Implication: something implied or suggested as naturally to be inferred or understood
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Approve: to speak or think favorably of; pronounce or consider agreeable or good; judge favorably
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Your statements imply your favorable or unfavorable judgement.
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It’s best to look things up before you pretend to know what you think you’re saying.
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Bye!

I was looking at this in the context of your original statement.  If your wording was “with every one of your comments you IMPLY who you approve of and who you don’t like”, I might agree with you.  Your wording was “with every one of your comments you IMPLICATE who you approve of and who you don’t like”.  Your use of “IMPLICATE” suggests the following definition, which I just did look up (not that I needed to):  1. to show to be also involved, usually in an incriminating manner: to be implicated in a crime. So, phew, I don’t have to agree with you.  Yay!

So here’s the long-awaited comment, released from spam-dom.  To clarify:  I am not lucky enough to be generous.  I have made sacrifices to be charitable to others, as have many other people in their own ways.  There are as many ways to be charitable as there are people, and thankfully there are many people who have answered that call. As far as hissy-fits, once again that shoe fits you quite well based on your behavior on this thread.

How is this SECULAR:

“A father walking his daughter down the aisle has long been a sweet symbolic act of a woman going from her parents’ house to the house of her own new family, but even its symbolism becomes strained when she’s long been building a home with her new spouse.”

While I definitely agree with 1 and 5 and have seen it in action, I think 2 and 3 are trivial.  I would never live with a boyfriend, but my husband and I moved in together when we have been engaged for several months and I would not do it any other way.

The proposal actually can be MORE climactic when you have been begging for it because you are living together.  The couples I know who lived together before engaged had the most dramatic proposals.  And I am not a fan of dramatic proposals anyway; a dating couple considering marriage should be, as equals, discussing this choice, not setting up surprises.  My husband’s proposal was very simple, very predictable, and we had been discussing marriage and the details of what marriage meant to us for a year before it.

And most of the wedding traditions are rendered meaningless by modern life anyway; most men and women have been working, and often living, outside the family home for years when they get married (a GOOD thing!).  I had been out of my parent’s home for 7 years (9 if you count my last two years of college, when I rented) when I got married at 30.  Both of us had advanced degrees, our own rents, and full time jobs for years.

And the honeymoon is a wonderful time to spend with someone you know and love enough that you have promised your lives to each other.  It doesn’t lack specialness - I would hope by the time you are marrying someone, making an irrevocable life choice, you have spent some extended time with them under a roof.

I think the key to dating and being engaged is being purposeful.  I was very upfront with my husband when we met - I believed dating was a time of testing for marriage, it was not permanent, and absolutely would not live together while dating.  I think this enabled us to see dating in its proper light.

During the last half of our engagement, once the date was set and the church was booked we were a few months away from marriage, we did what couples have done in many traditions and cultures throughout history, and began setting up a household together.  Setting up a household takes time, it is a process, and while the grace of the sacrament is infused at the moment of receiving it, the skills and sometimes even the practical necessities require a slow immersion.  You can’t merge two fully adult lives overnight.

I’m not sure the sudden “change” is that romantic, and I am glad we lived together for six months before marriage.  Our lives were no less changed after the ceremony - if anything the gradual buildup of combining our lives seemed to have a greater, more serious meaning because we made it a process, something we did together. 

Our living together was intentional, only after being engaged for some time, and with the purpose of laying a foundation for our marriage.  I do not regret it at all; we have a wonderful marriage today.

I think the more conservative Catholics need to be careful of “over-romanticising” and sentimentalizing things like “The Wedding Night” and the “specialness” of secular marriage traditions - none of these are what marriage is about, and the fake sentimentality can lead to dangerous focus on the wrong things and disappointment when the “specialness” doesn’t happen.  As a Steubenville grad myself, and someone who has spent time in conservative Catholic circles, I have seen as many devout Catholic and conservative Christian couples disillusioned by placing too much hope on superficial romance masquerading as morality as I have seen secular couples by living together before they are serious and taking marriage too casually.  Crisis Magazine had a great write up of this years ago.

Marriage is about commitment, family, sacrifice, passion, children, fun, grace and partnership.  It is full of truly special moments - children, the first time you stand in your new backyard together, late nights in front of the hearth, dinner time, etc.  It’s cheapened when it is reduced to superficial and often outdated traditions.

Poor Claire—she must qualify for sainthood with all the “sacrifices” she makes. It breaks my heart. (sarcasm).
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Is your adopted and/or other children hungry tonight? Do you live in a neighborhood with gang violence? Can you feed your family on a salary from Walmart? Are Republicans targeting their college funds? Do you have to choose between getting your kid needed checkups or paying the rent? Have you or any of your female relatives ever been raped and blamed for it?.
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Those are only a few of the problems women face today. Do you do anything about that, or are all your “sacrifices” done to glorify your Catholic self?

Claire,
God bless you in all you do.

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed abouta himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Sandy:  for the 10th time, I don’t think I’m better than anyone else, and my reasons for citing my contributions to the pro-life movement have nothing to do with that.  They were in respones to your erroneous implication that pro-lifers (me specifically) only focus on Planned Parenthood in their efforts.  And there’s no “poor Claire” about it;  I told you that every sacrifice I have made has been compensated 10-fold in the joy that my son has brought to my life.  I do not have a college fund for my son, so I have no fear of it being targeted by anyone.  My husband’s salary isn’t much higher than a Walmart worker.  When my son had a life-threatening emergency a few months ago, I opted against an inpatient admission due to finances, and consequently he came very close to returning to the ER later later that same day. My son’s birthmother faces some of the issues you discussed, and I have done my best to help her.  I will not answer any further questions due to privacy issues (and the fact that I don’t owe you an explanation, or anything else).  As far as the scripture you quoted:  I have told you repeatedly that I don’t think I’m superior to anyone else, but I do think it would be an appropriate scripture for you to meditate on, because you clearly have a superiority complex.

Kathleen:  thank you, but I’m sure that you do your part as well.  There are a few people in life who prefer to come to message boards and spread their poison rather than do things to help others, but I think most people do what they can, in whatever way they’re called, to help others.  And in doing so, end up getting back much more in return.

Oh, Boo Hoo!
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Claire, you have a way of inventing arguments that weren’t made. I never said you only target Planned Parenthood. I was making a general point that you are aiming at making abortion illegal and/or inaccessible when the focus should be on making it easier to raise a family instead.
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Too bad your feelings are hurt, but would you feel so proud of yourself if your child died because you couldn’t afford an impatient stay? I think it’s criminal that you had to choose not to admit a child to a hospital—doesn’t that bother you, or do you take it as one of the tests of your faith?
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If you choose to be hurt by the few examples I made, so be it. Kathleen is there to sympathize for your “sacrifices.” Maybe she can be like you, but you are not the model of self-sacrifice you pretend to be.

Sandy:  I am not hurt by anything you said.  You do not have the power to hurt me.  When did I say I felt proud of myself? You asked if I had to choose between getting healthcare for my child and paying rent, and I answered your question.  Not that I ever pretended to be a model of self-sacrifice, but what makes you think that I don’t make sacrifices?  I have given you several examples of sacrifices that I have made.  Do you think those are imaginary?  What about those examples is not a sacrifice?  Is it because my son has brought me so much joy that it makes up for the sacrifices?  That I could understand.  Not that your opinion matters to me, because you are clearly an uncharitable and unfeeling person who doesn’t care about children or anyone else for that matter, but I am still curious about your bizarre thought processes.

Well, now my comment is being held in spam prison.  So you can spend the rest of the night making erroneous and baseless assumptions about me until my comment gets released.  It’s not worth my time to try to re-create the original comment, except that I definitely want to clarify that my feelings are not hurt, and it is pretty arrogant of you to even entertain the thought that you have the power to hurt me.

(But as a consolation prize, I will say that you do have the power to annoy me.  Immaturity is cute on a preschooler.  It’s not so cute on a troll, which is what I’m starting to realize you are.)

Nice how you managed to change the conversation to be all about you.

This is not a conversation.  And it has been all about me ever since you made your first appearance on this thread, to tell me that I needed to grow up and that I had gone beneath dignity or some strange phrase.  Ever since then, you have made one erroneous assumption after another about me.  Instead of talking about the topic at hand, which is secular reasons not to live together about marriage, you have made this about me, my supposed martyrdom, my supposed superiority, whether or not I’m doing any good in the world, .......The irony is that every erroneous criticism you’ve made about me, actually applies to you based on your behavior on this thread.  My guess is that you probably have some things that you dislike about yourself, and instead of dealing with them, you would rather come onto a Catholic website and project them onto someone who belongs to a faith that you hate.  If that’s what you need to do to feel better about yourself, I don’t have a problem with it.

Posted by Claire on Monday, Feb 4, 2013 11:33 AM (EDT):
Sandy:  now I see that you’re the same person who wrote the ignorant comment on Simcha’s abortion thread, implying that any doctor would perform an abortion for the right price.  Again, it’s ironic that you think I need to grow up.  The more comments from you I read, the clearer it is that you yourself have quite a bit of growing up to do.
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Claire—you’re the one who bought up Simcha’s abortion thread. I just took it from there.
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And, we agree—the exchange has been all about you trying to convince me that you’re a “humble Catholic.” Make that your epitaph.

No, we definitely don’t agree.  I don’t take orders from you (or anyone), I don’t have an epitaph, and I’m not trying to convince you of anything.  Your opinion means nothing to me, because I only care about the opinions of people who I admire and respect.  That doesn’t mean that I am going to let lies about me stay unchallenged on this thread.  (Since lies are the hallmark of the pro-abortion movement, I can’t say that I’m surprised about your lack of integrity.)  Your comment to me (telling me to grow up, etc) came before the comment about Simcha’s thread).  I brought up Simcha’s thread to point out that your ignorance on that thread was consistent with your ignorance on this one.  But the “dialogue” began when you felt the need to share your pearls of wisdom (not!) about my response to troll #1.

No. 3 always struck me as the mean reason not to live together before marriage. Because it turns marriage (if and when it happens) into an anti climax and a cheep and meaningless formality. Especially in the case of the father giving the bride away. (Although it could be argued that if the bride has already moved out of home, then the giving away part is meaningless anyway even if she doesn’t live with the groom.)
I’d like to think that some co-habiting couples manage to resist the urge to have sex until the big day but the fact remains that when my parents and aunts and uncles got married it was something special. On the other hand, most of my cousins and now my brother as well either lived with or are living with their partners before marriage. Therefore when the wedding day come or when it does come, it was/will be cheep and meaningless.
Rest assured that if I ever get married (which seems unlikely)I will do what my parents, aunts and uncles did. And that was got married and then live together.

You only care about the opinions of people you admire and respect, who are your idols of perfect people as you think yourself to be. How convenient.
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If you don’t care about my opinions, why are you so defensive? You won’t convince me you’re a model of a humanitarian. If you are a model of a Catholic, I can understand why the number of “nones” is increasing.
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Now you’re implying that I’m “pro-abortion.” You must get exhausted jumping to conclusions.
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You don’t know anything, so stop pretending you know everything.

Sandy, once again, I don’t think I’m perfect, even if I thought I was a model of a humanitarian, I would not care to or try to convince you of it.  How loudly do I have to say it:  your opinion means nothing to me.  If anything, I would be worried if someone like you had a good opinion of me.  It would be a sign that I was on the wrong path.  And once again, I am not pretending anything, and I do not take orders from you or anyone else.  By the way, what good have you done in this world?  Do you do anything other than troll on Catholic threads?

Me thinks thou dost protest too much!

Me thinks your name (or one of them) is GLORIA, and that I’ve wasted enough time on you for one evening (or one lifetime).

I thought that was Paul! How many people are against you that you have to name them all “Gloria”?
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I suppose the great Claire has decreed me to be Gloria. Claire is the model of Catholic martyrdom (sorry, Mother Teresa!) so it must be the truth.
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Well, if that’s all you can do. I agree. Too much time has been wasted. I’m sure you’re proud of yourself.

Only one person, who hides behind many names so she (you) can play your juvenile games, which you are playing here on Jennifer’s thread rather than Simcha’s, because you know that if you made these comments on Simcha’s thread they would be deleted in a heartbeat.  I just hope I don’t see you here wasting another Saturday night as you have done in the past.  When I was on college, I wouldn’t have dreamed of wasting a Saturday night trolling.  It’s bad enough that you have nothing better to do on a weeknight…(by the way, I’m noticing that you didn’t answer my question about what good you have done in the world.  go figure.)

Wow! Talk about conspiracy theories? Do you know who really killed JFK? How the moon landing was faked? The 9/11 conspiracy and how the Sandyhook massacre was faked by the Obama administration so he could take away my assault rifle?
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You might want to look at this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder
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“Paranoid personality disorder is a mental disorder characterized by paranoia and a pervasive, long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others. Individuals with this personality disorder may be hypersensitive, easily feel slighted, and habitually relate to the world by vigilant scanning of the environment for clues or suggestions that may validate their fears or biases. Paranoid individuals are eager observers. They think they are in danger and look for signs and threats of that danger, potentially not appreciating other evidence.”
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Sound familiar?

The spam police are interrupting again..
From Wikipedia:
“Paranoid personality disorder is a mental disorder characterized by paranoia and a pervasive, long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others. Individuals with this personality disorder may be hypersensitive, easily feel slighted, and habitually relate to the world by vigilant scanning of the environment for clues or suggestions that may validate their fears or biases. Paranoid individuals are eager observers. They think they are in danger and look for signs and threats of that danger, potentially not appreciating other evidence.”
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You’re not dangerous, “GLORIA”.  Just annoying and pathetic.  And believe me, I don’t scan my environment for you.  So keep your wikipedia pop psychology to yourself.

” People with this particular disorder may or may not have a tendency to bear grudges, suspiciousness, tendency to interpret others’ actions as hostile, persistent tendency to self-reference, or a tenacious sense of personal right.”
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It is characterized by at least three of the following:
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excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs;
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tendency to bear grudges persistently, i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights;
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suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;
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a combative and tenacious sense of personal rights out of keeping with the actual situation;
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recurrent suspicions, without justification;
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tendency to experience excessive self-importance, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;
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preoccupation with unsubstantiated “conspiratorial” explanations of events both immediate to the person and in the world at large.”
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Sound familiar?

No, actually.  Like I said, keep your pop-psychology to yourself, or better yet, take a real psychology class in college.  By the way, what good have you done in the world?

“Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity.”
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Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR include:
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Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
Exaggerating own importance, achievements, and talents
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Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
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Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
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Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
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Being obsessed with self
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Pursuing mainly selfish goals
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Becoming easily hurt and rejected
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Setting goals that are unrealistic
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Wanting “the best” of everything
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Appearing unemotional”
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Is this why you invented “Gloria?” Is that you “safety word?”

Just because I said you weren’t dangerous, doesn’t automatically mean that you’re safe. 

What good have you done in the world?  What good have you done to help women in the examples that you outlined earlier?  Is your every spare moment spent trolling, or do you have plans to someday develop a social life and maybe contribute something productive to society?  Or is it easier to ask the tough questions, then to answer them (and to criticize people who are actually capable of answering them)?  Although obviously the easiest thing to do is to quote Wikipedia, which is only slightly above your intellectual level.

Sandy/Gloria, whether you’re the same person or just trolls of the same feather, I wanted to let you know that I have successfully unsubscribed from this thread.  I just got the email that was released from spamdom, and I clicked on the link to unsubscribe.  After being gone for the morning, my email inbox was inundated with comments from a new article, and I would rather spend my time on that type of a productive discussion then on interacting with someone who has nothing better to do than troll.  So, if you want to keep trolling here, you will just be talking to yourself (unless anyone else decides that you are worth responding to).

...I remember the saying “living in sin”, people probably shock at that term now.  Our society indeed have lost the sense of sin.

Oh Claire, you went hot tubbing with the troll.  His sock puppets look so ugly when they’re wet.  Lol!

Jesus: “What is your name?”
Demon: “Legion, for we are many”.
(same boss)

Not living with my ex-husband before we got married is the biggest mistake of my life.
—CC (7:43 PM)

I’ll hazard that your mistake, Ms. CC, was not observing your man before marrying him.

I’d just like to add under (Mrs. Fulwiler’s) “#3”—the tradition of wearing a white dress. When I wore my white dress, it meant what it stood for. White is for virginity as the bride goes to meet her husband.
—MrsF3 (1:47 PM)

I agree.  There’s always blue, symbolizing the pledge of faithfulness.  I wore blue.

@Clair, I have always found it helpful with personal attacks such as Sandy’s to respectfully decline to engage in an uncharitable exchange. Then ignore the rest of the posts.

I scandalized my friends by saying “I’m not setting up housekeeping with someone I’m not married to.” My mistakek though, was to engage in premarital sex. He was my first and only partner, and because of the intoxicating physical aspects of sexual discovery my judggement was clouded and I did not see the warning signs on both of our parts. Our marriage lasted 20 years because we were both committed to our 4 daughters, but it was a seriously troubled one that subjected our children to scenes of anger, verbal abuse, and violence that they never should have seen. By the grace of God our divorce was amicable and my troubled marriage has turned into the good good friendship it was probably meant to be. But we were also graced with our four lovely daughters, so I cannot say that I am sorry I was married. God is with us even when we make the wrong choices.

Hi Jen, I was sure I was going to marry this lady until she decided to come live with me. I became aware of the other sied of her and am no longer going to!

Good gracious!  I enjoyed folks’ sharing of how their marriages worked out without having lived together.  What I didn’t see was much of an expression of what marriage as a sacrament means in connection to ‘living together before marriage’.  It was disappointing to see some folks get caught up in ‘ego conversation’ instead of taking an opportunity to combine evangelization with secularization particularly since this is a Catholic publication and blogger.

http://fastforwardtomarriage.com/living-together-before-marriage-is-it-a-good-idea/

Posted by Alicia Nguyen on Wednesday, Feb 6, 2013 1:20 PM (EST):
“...I remember the saying “living in sin”, people probably shock at that term now.  Our society indeed have lost the sense of sin.”

I should preface my remarks by saying that I was a believer for most of my 61 years but no longer. All I can say is I changed my beliefs after arguments with my atheist brother and conducting extensive research. I moved out of my parents’ house on my wedding night like many in the past and like less today. My friend owns a three decker in East Boston in which he grew up. With the death of his parents he has rented out the three apartments most recently to his son and two daughters. Each has an apartment and lives with a significant other. One daughter has since taken the marriage vows in her mother’s old church but none of the family any longer attends.

The reason I am saying all this is that it seems that this arrangement is working. I don’t think of them as “living in sin” because I think that what one would consider to be sinful all depends on the circumstances. Eventually, all of them will probably get married although they won’t do it for any religious purpose or reason.

You know I was really enjoying reading everyone’s thought on this as I’m one that thinks after getting engaged I want to live with my fiance mainly for the reason of getting to know someone before making the choice to be blessed by God. We do not partake in any sexual activities and we want to keep it that way. I believe living together first is a great way to be certain because people do change.

The main reason I am commenting though is because half way through reading everyone’s comments I run into two people bickering back and forth. People coming here don’t come here wanting to see you two going back and forth at each other. grow up and if you have differences contact each other a different way other than on here. It’s pretty bad after viewing a few of your rants I just skipped to the bottom to write this because you guys are posting irrelevant stuff to this conversation.

Well Kyle, one month into the discussion you have observed the obvious:  that trolls post things that are irrelevant to the topic at hand.  Thank you for your observation.  And yes, I acknowledge that I should not have responded to the troll, but as often happens, I got sucked in before I realized who she was.  I still think it’s hypocritical of you to come here a month later and tell people to grow up, when your own comment is full of run-on sentences and grammatical errors.  I guess we all have things we need to work on.

“I want to live with my fiance mainly for the reason of getting to know someone before making the choice to be blessed by God.”
How modern!
“We do not partake in any sexual activities”
Oops.  That’s not “modern”.
“you guys are posting irrelevant stuff to this conversation”
Hilarious.  As though you would actually expect anything “relevant” in the comments to this silly JF post.
The silliest is:
“5. It limits your options”

Yes Earl, and your comments are the silliest and least relevant of all.